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==original research==
{{WikiProject Biography
Any attempt to reinstall McCarthyite conspiracy theories and rants into this article will be vigorously resisted. ] | ] 12:55, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
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{{WikiProject United States|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Economics|auto=inherit|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Socialism|importance=low}}
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==Archived material==
:Nobs's writings were sourced rather specifically. Ad hominems (and obscenities) are not a trump card, especially fifty years after the fact. --] 13:44, July 17, 2005 (UTC)


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::He is not using secondary sources. What he is doing is "]," a nice way of writing saying spewing defamatory bullshit. ] | ] 15:32, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
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== sad news ==
172, you need to be a bit more clear in your charge. Were it true that he is "not using secondary sources", this would not itself constitute a violation of ]. As the article states:


Fred Magdoff announced his father's death in an email message today. --] | ] 20:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
: The phrase "original research" in this context refers to untested theories; data, statements, concepts and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication; or '''any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas''' that, in the words of Misplaced Pages's founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a '''"novel narrative or historical interpretation"'''.


:Just got the e-mail announcement. See that his death has been recorded here. Hope future edits will be fair and accurate.--] 21:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Original research is research that '''creates primary sources or secondary sources'''.


==Inappropriate deletion of critical material==
I looked at the version which you challenged and changed; I have not been sufficiently moved to look through the entire history thus far. In that version of the article, he gave the following sources:
So much of this page is devoted to attacking Magdoff that the deletion of a highly relevant portion of text is an absurd POV attempt to silence counter criticism.--] 23:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


: Its not relevant, Schrecker does not mention Magdoff other than "he did not want to re-open old wounds" when asked about Bentley. Her remarks about Venona are relevant, that’s why I left them in that article, but she says nothing about Magdoff. ] 23:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
on the "International Brigades" in support of the claim that, "the Abraham Lincoln Brigade a Comintern organization that fought in the Spanish Civil War." The entry is not fully available but the article states that, "the International Brigades were recruited, organized, and directed by the Comintern, with headquarters in Paris. The U.S. contingent called itself the Abraham Lincoln Batallion." The encylopedia is being used in this context as a secondary source, and his factual claim is thus not novel.
: Listen, revert it back if you want, but I am not going to let this slide. Schrecker's remark are not relevant to the discussion on Magdoff. If the best you can do is Navasky at offering a sourced defense, then thats it. Dont try to reach for something that is not there. And dont write an article and source yourself......just kidding :)] 23:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
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::Fine, either it all goes or it all stays. Your claims are absurd on their face. Not funny, especially since your editing ally just got banned for a year for personal attacks on me. Not laughing.--] 23:37, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
for the claim that, "An FBI investigation later revealed that Magdoff made many false statements regarding his employment after graduation in order to obtain employment with the federal government." I have not read through the entire document to establish the veracity of this, and it does not appear to be word search compatible; this document, in the meantime, could be construed as either a primary document or a secondary one depending on how it is used.
::I also note that Magdoff just died, and that a renewed unfair POV attack on him is really questionable timing.--] 23:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
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::: Either it all goes or it all stays; what kind of garbage is that? This version, minus Schrecker's irrelevant commentary, has been the agreed upon version for over 3 months now. I ask you to justify the inclusion of Schrecker's comments on the article, and you remove all relevant information. First, you have failed to demonstrate how Schrecker's comments from "The Many Crimes" is relevant to an article on Harry Magdoff, she has made absolutely no claims that the VENONA papers have wrongfully implicated him. Secondly, she only mentionshim once in her entire book, and it was completely in passing.
which is purported by Nobs to be a "United States Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive" history, hosted on the website of the Federation of American Scientists. He cites page 31 to state that, "According to United States Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive (ONCIX) Official History, Magdoff was a member of the Perlo group of Soviet spies (See pg. 31)." The relevant text of page 31 is as follows:
::: Justify it or it goes, thats all I am asking for. Not a long winded attack on my motivations, no strawmen, no "poor Harry just died". The facts, verifiable. ] 01:03, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
: The following were members of the Victor Perlo Network....Harry Magdoff: Statistical Division of WPB and Office of Emergency Management; Bureau of Research and Statistics, WTB; Tools Division, War Production Board; Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, Commerce Department.
The reference is being used as a secondary source in which the claim is ''being attributed'' to it.
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of historian John Earl Haynes on which it appears posted what purports to be notes on a KGB document analyzed by "Alexander Vassiliev, a former KGB officer". The link directs to the following text:
: 3. “Tan” – Harry Magdoff, former employee of the Commerce Department.
Which refers to this annotation by John Earl Haynes:
: Magdoff, an economist, was a source for Bentley’s Perlo network. He worked for the War Production Board in World War II and then for the Commerce Department. He appeared in 1944 Venona messages as a Soviet source under the cover name Kant. Tan appeared only once in the deciphered Venona traffic, in a 1945 message, and was unidentified; but the context was consistent with it being Magdoff. Tan, it appears, had replaced Kant as Magdoff’s cryptonym in 1945.
These sources (the document and the annotation) are provided for the claim:
: Magdoff was identified by Arlington Hall cryptographers in the Venona project and FBI counterintelligence investigators as a Soviet source under the cover name "Kant" in 1944. Code name "Tan", which appears in the 1948 Gorsky Memo, and appears once in deciphered 1945 Venona traffic, according to researcher John Earl Haynes, is consistent with Magdoff. Code name "Tan", as the evidence suggests, replaced "Kant" as Magdoff’s cryptonym in 1945.
Part of which is attributed directly to Haynes, the rest of it is already suggested by him.
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published by the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars Cold War International History Project, apparently hosted by the Smithsonian Institute. Nobs's claim, in reference to this article, is that:
: Magdoff's complicity in espionage was corroborated by a message exhumed from the NKVD archives in Moscow in the 1990s. A message from the head of KGB foreign intelligence operations, Lt. General Pavel M. Fitin, to Secretary General of the Comintern Georgi Dimitrov dated September 29, 1944 requested information on Magdoff related to his recruitment into the espionage service of the Soviet Union.
Magdoff's name appears within the 18th footnote:
: 19 Feklisov, pp. 65-105; M. Vorontsov, Capt. 1st rank, Chief Navy Main Staff, Intelligence Directorate, and Petrov, Military Commissar, NMS, ID to G. Dimitrov, 15 August 1942, No. 49253ss, typewritten original; G. Dimitrov to Pavel M. Fitin, 20 November 1942, No. 663, t/w copy; P. M. Fitin to G. Dimitrov, 14 July 1944, No. 1/3/10987, t/w copy; P. M. Fitin to G. Dimitrov, 29 September 1944, No. 1/3/16895, t/w copy. All these documents are NMS ID and FCD Chiefs' requests for information related to Americans and naturalized American citizens working in various US Government agencies and private corporations, some of whom had been CPUSA members. The last two are related to a certain Donald Wheeler (an OSS official), Charles Floto or Flato (who in 1943 worked for the "...Dept. of Economic Warfare"), and Harry Magdoff (War Production Board)-the request dated 29 Sept. 1944-and to Judith Coplon who according to the FCD information worked for the Dept. of Justice.-RTsKhIDNI, f. 495, op. 74, d. 478, l. 7; d. 484, l. 34; d. 485, l. 10, 14, 17, 31, 44.
It is in reference to this passage (itself positioned after the previous footnote):
: Also, the limitations imposed on the usage of the CPUSA membership did not mean that Soviet intelligence ceased recruiting both Americans and non-Americans in America.
Since this article itself attempts to correlate primary sources in interpreting data, it is a secondary source and the claim staked by Nibs seems to me a plain reading of what is written there.
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"Allen Weinstein and Alexander Vassiliev, ''The Haunted Wood: Soviet Espionage in America—the Stalin Era'' (New York: Random House, 1999)", a book co-authored by the individual whose material is quoted as a primary document in another source given by Nubs. I do not see how this could be cited as a primary source.
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"Harvey Klehr, John Earl Haynes, and Fridrikh Igorevich Firsov, ''The Secret World of American Communism'' (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1995)", the second of whom annotated the aforementioned primary document. I do not see how this could be cited as a primary source.
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"Alexander Vassiliev, ''Untitled Notes on Anatoly Gorsky’s December 1948 Memo on the Failed American Networks (2003)''", what would seem to be by now an obvious reference though I can not locate the source of this specific title.
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"Feklisov, Alexandre, ''The Man Behind the Rosenbergs: Memoirs of the KGB Spymaster Who Also Controlled Klaus Fuchs and Helped Resolve the Cuban Missile Crisis'', New York: Enigma, 2001", which has no readily apparent relevance but would hardly seem to be a primary source.
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Your suggestion that he is conducting inappropriate original research is quite baffling then, considering that every contentious analytical claim is referenced, quite explicitly, and typically attributed directly to that source. Unless he is one of the individuals cited in this article, then he is actually following what is officially encouraged policy:


::: And furthermore, Nobs was not my "editing ally". It is a shame that he got booted for a year, because he was really doing some great work on espionage related articles, but I suppose I will pick up where Nobs left off ........... starting here, with the late, not so great, KGB Stalinist stooge : Harry Magdoff . ] 01:25, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
: esearch that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is strongly encouraged. In fact, all articles on Misplaced Pages should be based on information collected from primary and secondary sources. This is called source-based research, and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.


::::The phrase "late, not so great, KGB Stalinist stooge : Harry Magdoff" makes it clear that you are not able to edit this page in an NPOV way. No such consensus for censoring Schrecker existed. There was an ongoing edit battle that ended in a failed mediation and finally an arbitration, which just ended. The Schrecker quote was there during the mediation and arbitration. Please do not rewrite history to conform to your POV edits. Removing all the material and placing it on the proper page to avoid duplication is basic editing. Editing out one side of a controversy to support your POV is censorship.--] 02:00, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I would politely suggest that you tone down the rancorous language and instead focus specifically on concerns you may have regarding the sources themselves or the presentation of information, rather than deleting content wholesale with nothing but personal attacks and vague threats. It is neither helpful in attempting to resolve such a dispute nor does it conform with expected policy and behavior. --] 17:18, July 17, 2005 (UTC)


::::: I beleive you have read the arbitration wrong, it was about conduct, namely of Nobs, it was never about conduct. I never siad there was a "consensus for censoring Schrecker", I am making that arguement, right here, right now, so dont put words in my mouth. ] 02:16, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
: We only have evidence here that he was hounded by the FBI during the McCarthy era, and hardly anything corroborating the claim that he was a Soviet spy by secondary sources. I do not regret my language. Misplaced Pages will not be used to turn the clock back to the McCarthy era. ] | ] 17:31, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


==Back to the Lecture at Hand......==
::''We only have evidence here that he was hounded by the FBI during the McCarthy era''
I would like to hear an explanation about why there is no summary for the espionage charges in this article, only a header. Your impression that it is a punitive ''tit for tat'' against my removal of Schrecker's comments, but 1, that’s now how Misplaced Pages works, and 2, I have already explained, and you appear to have conceded that Schrecker's comments are irrelevant. ] 22:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


:Not true. I think Schrecker is on point. It is not fair to claim that Navasky is not a scholar. He is not an acemdemic, but he is a scholar. Seek compromise. Assume good faith. See my comments on the other page.--] 17:04, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
::I am not sure what this is in reference to. McCarthy was in control of the ] not the FBI. I'm not sure what the date of the FBI report listed is from, but it does not concern the more specific references to documentation regarding his activities (rather the assertion that he lied in order to get a job); they come not only from counter-intelligence but research into KGB sources.


:The deletion of Schrecker from both pages is unfair, and thus the recent edit is just punative and unfair. It is not fair to delete a scholar and then say there are only journalists who are skeptical. Furthermore, Navasky is a scholar. Not all scholars are academics, and important distinction.--] 20:30, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
::''hardly anything corroborating the claim that he was a Soviet spy by secondary sources.''
==Inaccurate description of Henry Wallace's presidential campaign......==


The article states that Henry Wallace ran for president as a "socialist candidate". This is not accurate. While Henry Wallace did have support from many people who were socialists, his campaign was not explicitly socialist, and according to John Culver's biography of Wallace, attempts to commit the Progressive Party to a specifically socialist program were defeated at the Progressive Party national convention. Also, Henry Wallace, in the campaign, often noted that he was the ONLY candidate in the race who had been a successful businessman prior to entering politics. In addition, the Socialist Party had its own candidate in 1948, Norman Thomas.
::I just got through explaining in a bit of detail how the references were being used as secondary sources and in many instances were attributing the info ''and'' the claim directly to those sources. I am not sure what standard you are using here or that any would suffice.
It would be more accurate to describe the Progressive Party as a left-liberal party, representing the more leftist strain of the old New Deal coalition, and with a foreign policy that was opposed to the escalation of the Cold War--] 09:52 am, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


==Fair use rationale for Image:Magdoff.jpg==
::''Misplaced Pages will not be used to turn the clock back to the McCarthy era.''
]
''']''' is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under ] but there is no ] as to why its use in '''this''' Misplaced Pages article constitutes fair use. In addition to the ], you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with ].


Please go to ] and edit it to include a ]. Using one of the templates at ] is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
::That is a rather anti-encylopedic and ahistorical attitude to correlating facts and valid information. Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be either an activist or agenda-driven tool. If evidence comes to light which calls for a revision of history then history should be revised. However, this article does not concern "the McCarthy era". It concerns Magdoff. I'm not sure if you are aware of VENONA or the research into Soviet archives after the collapse, much less the work of such as Weinstein, Vassiliev, Haynes, Klehr, and so forth. That is no excuse to deny that this all exists. And condescendingly referring to Nobs' gathering of this known and published information as "bullshit" and "detective work" is neither helpful or particularly relevant, as he is not going further than what the references say or violating policy in his work. --] 16:32, July 18, 2005 (UTC)


If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on ]. If you have any questions please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Missing rationale2 -->
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] (]) 17:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for a very well studied presentation of the evidence. I might include, the source included within the text from the ] website is a duplicate reprint of the that available listed at the bottom the page from the Official History of the ] (ONCIX), entitled, . The two are identical and are ] information. ] 19:04, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


== Is a statistician an administrator ==
:This isn't the place for your detective work, which is not adequately corroborated by secondary sources. ] | ] 19:07, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


A couple problems with the heading - "He held several administrative positions in government during the presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt" Although true it has some inaccuracies '''1st''' he started as a statistician and '''2nd''' he was in government during the Truman administration. This sentence should be improved but I'm not quite sure how to go about it without unnecessarily making it longer. Perhaps- "He was a government employee during the 30s and 40s" "He held several positions in government during the 30s and 40s" or "He held several positions in government during the presidencies of Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman." or "He held positions in government during the Great Depression and World War II" <br /> And after reading the article I'm left with a question - Was he a card carrying member of the Communist Party? Being a suspected party member would have made continuing federal employment during the late 1940s and 1950s nearly impossible. ] (]) 02:10, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
:: OK, you want a secondary source, here's one: Nigel West, ''Venona: The Greatest Secret of the Cold War'' (HarperCollins, London, 1999), which describes Magdoff as a "member of a new network" (one containing Perlo and others). There's a bit more about him in this book, but I won't bother to type it in. ] ] 22:43, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
:: Oh, here's another secondary source (mentioned above, but here's what it says): it turns out I do have ''The Secret World of American Communism'', which is about the contents of ] archives released to Western researchers in the 1990's, It's published by ], hardly a source of disreputable, shadowy, works. : The Comintern memo (Document 90) of 28/29 September 1944 (no doubt a response to the Venona May messages given below, since it names the same list of people) which it provides includes the entry "5. Magadoff, works on the WPB." This book goes on to say:
::: ''Of the seven names in the message, Elizabeth Bentley named six of them ... Harry Mogadoff ... as sources from whom she received espionage material.''
:: I know ] is something of a ''bête noire'' on the left, but alas for them, she's the real thing. ], a two-star general in the NKVD who ran the NKVD's "Administration for Special Tasks", says in his autobiography '']'' that:
::: ''For the FBI to utilize the disclosures by Guzenko, and later by Elizabeth Bentley, an American NKVD agent, to penetrate and destroy our agent networks was not an easy job.
:: thereby confirming that she really was an NKVD agent, and really did blow real agents/sources (including Mogadoff) to the US authorities. ] ] 21:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC)


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
Note on , will be found on pgs. 3-9 in PDF format. ] 19:18, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


I have just modified 2 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
:Another secondary source: Herbert Romerstein, Stanislav Levchenko, ''The KGB Against the "Main Enemy": How the Soviet Intelligence Service Operates Against the United States'', (Lexington, Mass. : Lexington Books, 1989), pg. 108, lists ] as a member of the ]. ] 20:39, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051211111653/http://www.nacic.gov/history/index.html to http://www.nacic.gov/history/index.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060112051142/http://www.counterpunch.org/pollin01062006.html to http://counterpunch.org/pollin01062006.html


When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
==Reference to McCarthy==
Reverted and placed here pending sourcing that ] ever testified before the ].
:''Magdoff became vulnerable during the ]. '' ] 23:13, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
I would hope all issues can be resolved without an edit war. In regards to this issue, there definitely were "security concerns" regarding Magdoff. Those "security concerns" did not originate with charges by Joseph McCarthy. No evidence has been presented that Magdoff was a "victim" of McCarthy. Magdoff's security concerns have been well documented. I would very much like to complete a well rounded bio-page of Magdoff, entailling all aspects of what appears to be a very interesting life. Hiding facts, however, and invoking distortions, IMHO, will ultimatley serve no purpose and fail. I look forward to cooperation with any serious student of Magdoff. ] 15:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 06:35, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
== Venona ==

Before I looked at this article Nobs01 states as historical fact that: <b>Magdoff was a member of the Perlo group of Soviet spies. Magdoff appears in 1944 Venona messages as a Soviet source under the cover name "Kant". </b>

OK, well first of all Google shows the words "magdoff", "kant" and "venona" appear on exactly four web pages ("hiss", "ales" and "venona" appear on over 700). One of these pages is Nobs01's Misplaced Pages entry, so it's really three entries. One is from a white supremacist site, which seems to be quoting from another source. One is from some far-right red-under-every-bed author, who basically accuses pretty much every known figure on the left, whether communist or not, of being a Soviet spy - Alger Hiss, Harry Magdoff, Harry Dexter White, even IF Stone for God's sake. The other is a memo referring to the original Venona message, and the speculations of those at the time, let's see what that was:

MAGDOFF - "KANT".

So US intelligence was not able to retrieve this whole sentence, just the last two words, Magdoff and Kant. Everything else is just a speculation. Now first of all, who is to say this is Harry Magdoff? There are Magdoff's living in California, Nevada, Louisiana, Vermont, Massachusetts. Why is is Harry Magdoff? More importantly, spies never have their name transmitted by the Soviets. Code names are always used. So if his name was transmitted, it actually would help his case.

Nobs01 is putting all of this wild speculation about Venona into Misplaced Pages as factual encyclopedia articles. In fact, I just looked and see IF Stone is being accused of being a Soviet spy as well. Why not just go edit the FDR and Truman articles and accuse them of "twenty years of treason" like McCarthy did? It's quite ridiculous we have to waste our time cleaning up after people putting in the kind of stuff the John Birch Society put out during the McCarthy era. ] 18:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

: You should quote the entire 13 May message (, ), not just two words:
:: "On HELMSMAN's instructions GOOD GIRL contacted through AMT a new group in CARTHAGE: MAGDOFF - "KANT". GOOD GIRL's impressions: They are reliable FELLOWCOUNTRYMEN, politically highly mature; they want to help with information. They said that they had been neglected and no oone had taken any interest in their potentialities "STORM". RAIDER, PLUMB, TED, and KANT will go to TYRE once every two weeks in turn. PLUMB and TED know PAL. We shall let you have identifying particulars later."
: Note that the name Magdoff is completely spelled out (i.e. the assignment of KANT to Magdoff was not just dective/guesswork, but comes from a direct textual connection in a decrypt).
: Shortly thereafter (as promised - ''We shall let you have identifying particulars later'') there's this 30 May messsage ( ), which is a long list of the " of new group":
:: "The probationers of the new group have given the following personal histories of themselves:" ... "2. 'KANT' became a fellow COUNTRYMAN a long time ago, being , works in the Machine Tool Division of the DEPOT."
: which states flat out that the Magdoff in question worked in the ], pretty much confirming that the Magdoff in question is this one.

:Your statement that ''spies never have their name transmitted by the Soviets. Code names are always used.'' is incorrect, as you can see on page 2 of the second message, where Harold Glasser's name is given in full.
: Please note that your use of the term "spies" is loose and imprecise; the NKVD (and is predecessors and successors) carefully distinguished between "agent" (someone who had a formal relationship with the NKVD, sometimes involving money), and "sources", a term which covered a wide range of people, some of whom might just be gossips, not witting helpers. There's a wide range in there, and just because some is named as a source of information, and is given a covername, doesn't mean they were "spies" (in the conventional meaning of the term).

: Your ranting about ''the John Birch Society'' and ''the McCarthy era'' is absolutely out of place. If you have any '''facts''' to bring to the table, please produce them. ] ] 20:36, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

:: You are still making quite a stretch to say that Harry Magdoff was definitely, in fact, a Soviet spy. First we have a sentence where only two word appear, Magdoff and Kant. For you, this is enough proof that Harry Magdoff is Kant. I wonder why if Magdoff is some kind of secret agent, why the names of everyone around his entry has a code name, but it wasn't seen fit to give him one.

:::: It doesn't matter if everyone who has written about Venona (including Wise and Haynes) has made a mistake in linking Magdoff and KANT, because i) actual documents from ] archives, including one photographically reproduced in ''Secret World of American Communism'' refer to him by name, and ii) he was identified by name by Elizabeth Bentley as someone from whom she had gotten information for the Soviets - and Bentley's bona-fides as a real NKVD agent who blew real assets is vouched for by no less a person than a 2-star general of the MGB/MVD! (See above.) ] ] 22:29, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

:: Then you somehow look at the message "'KANT' became a fellow COUNTRYMAN a long time ago, being , works in the Machine Tool Division of the DEPOT." as being this "states flat out that the Magdoff in question worked in the War Production Board". Sorry, but I don't see this at all. At least five people are said by Nobs to be spies in the War Production Board. This message doesn't even connect Kant to the production board since 8 groups of the cipher missing between the mention of Kant and the code name which is supposed to represent the War Production Board. This would be like seeing something mentioned on one page of a book, flipping eight pages forward, seeing that someone works at a codename which they think is a board, and then saying there is a definitive connection. Even if there was a connection, which there isn't, Magdoff is not the only person who worked on the War Production Board. He worked in the Statistical Division of the WPB anyhow, Nobs is trying to list him as working at multiple divisions, which is absurd.

:::: If you actually look at , you'll see that the sentence I quoted is one entry from a list of names, each of which is of the form " " - so those missing 8 groups (i.e. at most 8 words) are all part of the description of KANT, to whom the latter part also applies. But as I point out above; this is all nit-pickings; Mogadoff was identified '''''by name''''' by both an NKVD agent and Comintern archives. ] ] 22:29, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

:: The "facts" which "prove" Magdoff was a Soviet spy have more holes than a sponge. Enormous leaps of conclusions are made here. I should also mention that there is very little discussion on the Internet of the idea of Magdoff being a spy, aside from here, the white supremacist site and the 2 conspiracy sites. ] 21:07, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

:::: I'm a bit bemused by your reference to ''the white supremacist site and the 2 conspiracy sites''. The sites I linked to were the NSA, and John Earl Haynes (owner of another site linked to) is a specialist in 20-th century US history at the ], which is not exactly a wooden shack full of people dressed in white sheets. The reason that there's little about Mogadoff in the records is that he's a relatively minor figure in the 1940s Soviet intelligence network; just a minor source who provided some (probably not very important) information. Its not the most important fact about him, but it's worth noting, both in and of itself, and because when Bentlet accused him, it had consequences for his career. ] ] 23:49, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

:::::He's referring to a particular he seems to have put in to dismiss the importance of it which besides being a non sequitur ignores completely that the vast majority of the evidence for and characterizations of Magdoff in this context come from researchers published in respectable forums, ex-KGB officers, admitted spies, and government agencies. --] 00:02, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

:::Please check out the absurdity of Magdoff's own words http://foia.fbi.gov/silversm/silversm2c.pdf (pgs. 4-5 in the PDF format),

:::"''In a supplemental questionaire '''executed September 4, 1942''', Magdoff stated that he was the father of two sons, aged three years and five months; that he was appointed "Chief of the Control Records Section of the ]." His salary was indicated by him as $541.67 per month.

:::"''In a questionaire executed by his employer, maintained by Local Board no. 3, Magdoff's employment was described as "Economimic Analyst, Chief, Current Business Analysis Unit," salary $6750 per annum, '''date entered present position, July 4, 1944'''. It was stated that Magdoff serves as an expert analyst and advisor to officials of the Department (]) upon the fundemental problems arising from mobilization of the nations's resources, inter-relationships of major segments of the economy under war strains - anticipation of major bottleneck and backward areas which retard national effort.

:::"''In response to a questionaire completed by Harry Magdoff he listed the following employment:
:::''1940 - 1942 - WPA Statisitcs Division, Senior Economic Statisitician,
:::''July 4, 1944 to the date of questionaire (April 16, 1945) - Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, Chief, Currect Job Analysis Unit.

:::It should be noted many, many of the persons working in government during WWII who had covert relationships with Soviet intelligence changed jobs several times, or in some cases they were "on loan" from one Department of the government to another. ] 22:11, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

:::::Nobs already gave a reference to his WPB employment:

:::::http://www.nacic.gov/history/CIReaderPlain/Vol3Chap1.pdf

:::::'''''Harry Magdoff: Statistical Division of WPB and Office of Emergency Management'''; Bureau of Research and Statistics, WTB; '''Tools Division, War Production Board'''; Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, Commerce Department.''

:::::Also reformatted the comments so they are directly attributed to users, hopefully avoiding confusion. --] 22:42, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you Noel, excellent work and analysis. Yes indeed the term "spy" is applied too loosely too often; we are specifically refering to persons with covert relationship with Soviet intelligence, not the "unwitting type" which do occur, and I am working on a glossary of terminology which should help. For the record, here is more from Haynes and Klehr that references Magdoff:

*
*
*
*
*
*, uses codename "Tan"


:] told the ] that on a rainy Sunday in March of 1944, at a meeting with the ], ] had been on sick leave recovering from an operation and was about to return to work at the ]. The FBI checked and found that Magdoff had been on sick leave from January 10 to Marcy 7 1944 for a ] operation, and that it had rained in New York on both Sunday February 27 and March 5, 1944.
Source: Elizabeth Bentley deposition, 30 November 1945, FBI file 65-14603; Elizabeth Bentley, ''Out of Bondage: The Story of Elizabeth Bentley'', New York: Ivy Books, 1988), pgs. 163-165; New York FBI memo, 16 January 1947, . ] 20:58, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I am not extremely knowledgeable on the specifics of the McCarthy era (other than how he was a bad dude -- learned that from my 8th grade ex-hippie teacher) but if sufficient evidence has been produced that Magdoff was a spy or some kind of intelligence asset, then we can retain the reference to ] in there without making him sound like a perfectly innocent victim. ] 05:59, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

=="Forefront of leftist thought"==
If this is true, I'd assume it'd have been in the '60s and '70s amongst the New Left. "Socialist" or "Marxist thought" would probably be more accurate, "leftist" strikes me as a little too broad for someone like Magdoff. Other than that, I just have to ask was he really a prominent figure (outside of this monthlyreview source, which naturally is gonna be complimentary) compared to others on the New Left? ] 05:44, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
: Sure - he was one of the Soviet Union's top spies! ] 05:57, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
::har har. ] 06:02, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
:::The New Left did not pass from the scene after the 1970s. The ''Monthly Review'', ''New Left Review'', and ''Journal of World System Research'' still publish some influential academic books, particularly in sociology and political economy. If you're going to study history and politics, there's a chance that you might be assigned Duncan Green's ''Sielent Revolution'', David Harvey's ''New Imperialism'', or Michel Beaud's ''History of Capitalism'' in one course or another, which were published by ''Monthly Review''. ] | ] 06:48, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
::::goddammit 172 why'd you have to inform me of this, i'm already worried enough about the pinko professors i'm gonna have to listen to. btw, for now i'm gonna be majoring in econ.
::::getting back to the issue, my point was that the New Left was at its most influential in the '60s and '70s, even if some of their material is still used in academia. also whether he's really a prominent leftist figure today compared to other folks in mags like ''The Nation'', which as far as I can tell is the most popular leftist publication in the U.S. today. ] 06:53, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
::::::Haha. In that case, you might be relatively safe; sociology departments are usually teaming with the most pinkos, while economics departments usually have the least... I see your point now. I'll go ahead and insert "leftist" and "socialist." ] | ] 07:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
:::::::my dad had a communist professor in Econ, but that was at UCSC, so yeah. banana slugs. ] 07:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
::::::::It is my understanding that ''Monthly Review'' is considerably more influential ''outside'' the US than inside, in places like India and Africa. IIRC, there are/have been translations of it in various languages. By ''Monthly Review'', I also mean the MR crowd: Sweezy, Huberman, Magdoff, and many of the writers they published. -- ] | ] 17:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
:::::::::That's a good point to add to its pockets of influence in the U.S. in academia. Of course, there's also the influence in Russia, given that Magdoff has long been one of the Kremlin's top moles in the U.S. ] | ] 22:56, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
::::::::::I don't doubt that Marxist opinion in general is much more popular in certain third world countries, but I was making my comments based on the fact that Magdoff is a U.S. citizen and MR is based in the U.S. ] 04:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
:::::::::::Indeed. But Misplaced Pages is an international project with readers from around the world. -- ] | ] 09:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
::::::::::::Well I have no major objections to how 172 changed the phrase. My only thought about the general article now is that it seems a little laudatory in certain spots since it's based on an article from the MR, but nothing horrendous. I ain't gonna get involved in the whole spy v. McCarthyite mess. ] 09:42, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

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Archived material

sad news

Fred Magdoff announced his father's death in an email message today. --Viajero | Talk 20:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Just got the e-mail announcement. See that his death has been recorded here. Hope future edits will be fair and accurate.--Cberlet 21:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate deletion of critical material

So much of this page is devoted to attacking Magdoff that the deletion of a highly relevant portion of text is an absurd POV attempt to silence counter criticism.--Cberlet 23:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Its not relevant, Schrecker does not mention Magdoff other than "he did not want to re-open old wounds" when asked about Bentley. Her remarks about Venona are relevant, that’s why I left them in that article, but she says nothing about Magdoff. DTC 23:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Listen, revert it back if you want, but I am not going to let this slide. Schrecker's remark are not relevant to the discussion on Magdoff. If the best you can do is Navasky at offering a sourced defense, then thats it. Dont try to reach for something that is not there. And dont write an article and source yourself......just kidding :)DTC 23:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Fine, either it all goes or it all stays. Your claims are absurd on their face. Not funny, especially since your editing ally just got banned for a year for personal attacks on me. Not laughing.--Cberlet 23:37, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I also note that Magdoff just died, and that a renewed unfair POV attack on him is really questionable timing.--Cberlet 23:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Either it all goes or it all stays; what kind of garbage is that? This version, minus Schrecker's irrelevant commentary, has been the agreed upon version for over 3 months now. I ask you to justify the inclusion of Schrecker's comments on the article, and you remove all relevant information. First, you have failed to demonstrate how Schrecker's comments from "The Many Crimes" is relevant to an article on Harry Magdoff, she has made absolutely no claims that the VENONA papers have wrongfully implicated him. Secondly, she only mentionshim once in her entire book, and it was completely in passing.
Justify it or it goes, thats all I am asking for. Not a long winded attack on my motivations, no strawmen, no "poor Harry just died". The facts, verifiable. DTC 01:03, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
And furthermore, Nobs was not my "editing ally". It is a shame that he got booted for a year, because he was really doing some great work on espionage related articles, but I suppose I will pick up where Nobs left off ........... starting here, with the late, not so great, KGB Stalinist stooge : Harry Magdoff . DTC 01:25, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The phrase "late, not so great, KGB Stalinist stooge : Harry Magdoff" makes it clear that you are not able to edit this page in an NPOV way. No such consensus for censoring Schrecker existed. There was an ongoing edit battle that ended in a failed mediation and finally an arbitration, which just ended. The Schrecker quote was there during the mediation and arbitration. Please do not rewrite history to conform to your POV edits. Removing all the material and placing it on the proper page to avoid duplication is basic editing. Editing out one side of a controversy to support your POV is censorship.--Cberlet 02:00, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I beleive you have read the arbitration wrong, it was about conduct, namely of Nobs, it was never about conduct. I never siad there was a "consensus for censoring Schrecker", I am making that arguement, right here, right now, so dont put words in my mouth. DTC 02:16, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Back to the Lecture at Hand......

I would like to hear an explanation about why there is no summary for the espionage charges in this article, only a header. Your impression that it is a punitive tit for tat against my removal of Schrecker's comments, but 1, that’s now how Misplaced Pages works, and 2, I have already explained, and you appear to have conceded that Schrecker's comments are irrelevant. DTC 22:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Not true. I think Schrecker is on point. It is not fair to claim that Navasky is not a scholar. He is not an acemdemic, but he is a scholar. Seek compromise. Assume good faith. See my comments on the other page.--Cberlet 17:04, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The deletion of Schrecker from both pages is unfair, and thus the recent edit is just punative and unfair. It is not fair to delete a scholar and then say there are only journalists who are skeptical. Furthermore, Navasky is a scholar. Not all scholars are academics, and important distinction.--Cberlet 20:30, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Inaccurate description of Henry Wallace's presidential campaign......

The article states that Henry Wallace ran for president as a "socialist candidate". This is not accurate. While Henry Wallace did have support from many people who were socialists, his campaign was not explicitly socialist, and according to John Culver's biography of Wallace, attempts to commit the Progressive Party to a specifically socialist program were defeated at the Progressive Party national convention. Also, Henry Wallace, in the campaign, often noted that he was the ONLY candidate in the race who had been a successful businessman prior to entering politics. In addition, the Socialist Party had its own candidate in 1948, Norman Thomas. It would be more accurate to describe the Progressive Party as a left-liberal party, representing the more leftist strain of the old New Deal coalition, and with a foreign policy that was opposed to the escalation of the Cold War--Ken Burch 09:52 am, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Is a statistician an administrator

A couple problems with the heading - "He held several administrative positions in government during the presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt" Although true it has some inaccuracies 1st he started as a statistician and 2nd he was in government during the Truman administration. This sentence should be improved but I'm not quite sure how to go about it without unnecessarily making it longer. Perhaps- "He was a government employee during the 30s and 40s" "He held several positions in government during the 30s and 40s" or "He held several positions in government during the presidencies of Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman." or "He held positions in government during the Great Depression and World War II"
And after reading the article I'm left with a question - Was he a card carrying member of the Communist Party? Being a suspected party member would have made continuing federal employment during the late 1940s and 1950s nearly impossible. Nitpyck (talk) 02:10, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

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