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==Should this page even exist?== | |||
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I just don't think Misplaced Pages is the place for a point/counterpoint type discussion. It's one thing to point out, in the context of the article itself, that there is substantial criticism. It's a whole other issue to actually create an entry devoted to the debate. I mean, what's next, ] (yes, I know {{spoiler}} this has been settled in the last book, but you know what I mean). ] 02:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC) | |||
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== References from above == | |||
== A page about criticisms that does not seem to do a good job showcasing much of the criticism == | |||
Whether this is more a matter of formatting or not, this page could seem to use some big improvements in the way information is being presented, and with respect to the nature of the information discussed. | |||
==Criticisms from other fields of evolution and human behavior== | |||
In the second paragraph from the first section on modularity, we have a paragraph that is clearly dedicated to criticism of massive modularity. Interestingly we see a reference to a response tacked on in a few words at the end. In contact, the third paragraph from this same section looks quite like a back and forth commentary between the debates or arguments of specific researchers. By the time we proceed through the section on EEA and hypothesis testing, the majority of the text becomes dedicated to showcasing incredibly specific responses to extremely short summaries of the EP's criticisms. | |||
Should this article include criticisms of ] from other fields of evolution and human behavior? Other fields could include: | |||
# ] | |||
# ] | |||
# ] | |||
] 00:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
We find some of the paragraphs are dedicated to explaining a criticism, but it is always written to be about the views and arguments of a specific scholar. For people who are not used to reading about the works of specific people, this is not going to be helpful to orient naive readers to the issues around evolutionary Psychology. The issues need to be written in a more general fashion, like other wiki pages, spending less time explicitly mentioning the names of specific authors and more time spent clearly communicating the concepts and ideas. The only exception to this, for readability, should be when examples are warranted for the sake of illustrating something complicated to the reader. | |||
This is the least neutral page I've seen on Misplaced Pages. It doesn't even begin to cover all of EP's shortcomings and makes it appear as if every single criticism against EP has been conquered! <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
I do not know my way around wikipedia, but I think these issues significantly compromise the quality of this page. At the very least, there needs to be some major formatting changes - like the introduction of more sub-headings, and a more principled way of writing the responses to these criticism (particularly as it bears on the amount of words spent on these responses). | |||
==Tempted to Delete== | |||
This page is ridiculous. It's like a huge evolutionary psychology apologia. Most of the criticisms are either unsourced or strawmen versions of the real arguments. A lot of the claims about the nature of the debate are unsourced, along with some of the rebuttals. Not to mention that pages like this shouldn't even exist in Misplaced Pages to begin with, it should be integrated into the article on evolutionary psychology (and no, I don't care if "it's hard.") The additional resources for people interested in the criticisms is buried far below the resources for the rebuttals, and is quite small. I think that betrays the obvious purpose of this page. I'll be fixing that for now (since it's odd for the counter-arguments to precede the arguments, and for the arguments themselves to be buried below the notes.) ] 22:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
As it stands, a skim read gives the impression that there is just as much, and possible more words spent on responses to criticisms as there are explaining the criticisms themselves. What's worse is that the criticisms and the responses are not clearly delineated. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 07:33, 8 October 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
After reading through the article again, I also saw plenty of problems with the criticisms, so I went through and tagged all the unsourced claims. I'm no longer sure what this page is supposed to be for. I put up an original research and expert needed tag, since contrary to my first impression, this articles appears to just be forum chatter that's spilled over into Misplaced Pages. ] 23:09, 24 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
== At least one of the responses to criticisms here seems to be really, really bad. == | |||
==The criticisms section was moved to its own page from the main EP article for good reason== | |||
See the "talk" section of the main EP article. Critics of EP were turning the main EP article into a debate, and making content edits that mis-characterized the field. Rather than engage in continual edit wars, better that it be moved here so both sides can make their best case, and hash it out. I disagree with Vesperal's comment above (but don't find it surprising given that in his user profile he quotes a critic of EP). ] 05:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
The article says | |||
:Please sign your posts. If the information I tagged can be found in any "intro evol psych book" then please go get one and source the statements. I also still think that this debate (at least some of it) should eventually be moved back into the main article once it gets cleaned up a bit.] 23:02, 28 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
:I only retagged one statement: "EP fully accepts nature-nurture interactionism." Although I'm pretty sure this is true, I'd still like to see this sourced.] 23:07, 28 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
"Steve Stewart-Williams argues, in response to claims that evolutionary psychology hypotheses are unfalsifiable, that such claims are logically incoherent. Stewart-Williams argues that if evolutionary psychology hypotheses can't be falsified, then neither could competing explanations, because if alternative explanations (e.g. sociocultural hypotheses) were proven true, this would automatically falsify the competing evolutionary psychology hypothesis, so for competing explanations to be true, then evolutionary psychology hypothesis must be false and thus falsifiable." | |||
::Vesperal -- for a good overview of EP see the EP FAQ by Ed Hagan: http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/human/evpsychfaq.html | |||
::as well as his paper "Controversies surrounding evolutionary psychology" | |||
http://itb.biologie.hu-berlin.de/~hagen/papers/Controversies.pdf | |||
I'll try to add more refs soon. ] 05:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
The problem is that this assertion is that it doesn't really mesh with the way science is done. Alternative explanations will never be "proven true" in the sense that Mr. Stewart-Williams is describing-generally, an idea in science (other than math) is accepted when people try to prove it false a bunch of times but can't. Also, by his logic, "unfalsifiablity" can never be a real concern since if any other idea is "proven true," it would falsify every other idea. There's probably more really bad logic that doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the article, but that was what really jumped out at me. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:15, 15 January 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
==The Structure of the Article and Bias== | |||
I think having this page is a good idea. However, the structure of the article seems to give the appearance of a bias towards evolutionary psychology. Specifically, I'm referring to how there's a criticism of EP, followed by a rebuttal, followed by the next criticism, followed by the next rebuttal, and so forth. In this article, EP gets "the last word". I think it's a good idea to have this page, since EP is so controversial, but I'm not quite sure what would be the best way to structure it. ] 21:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC) | |||
:I agree, the whole section on falsifiability strikes me as overlong and giving excessive attention to amateurish arguments. I'm reluctant to radically change it but would appreciate insight about how to handle it or determine if my impression is shared or not. ] (]) 23:15, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:This article actually leads like a one of the arguments from Aquinas (whose method I hope I can discuss without being accused of bias against this article), wherein he starts with a question, then sets forth first a statement that answers the question in the opposite way from what he thinks (for example, to the question, "Does God exist?" he starts with "It would seem that God does not exist, because..."). Then he makes his real argument, where he says what he really thinks ("I the contrary, I assert that..."). The point is that, in this method, the first argument is set up to fail, and the counter-argument always looks better, especially since it has the final word. This method may be very effective in proving a point, but an encyclopedia article is meant to provide unbiased information---nor do I think the question of the validity of Evolutionary Psychology so completely undisputed that one can say, "Well, this is what science has proven, whether you like it or not." ] (]) 22:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:This entire article reads like a "Response to criticism of evolutionary psychology" and not an article on the actual criticism. ] (]) 21:37, 20 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
::There's a lot here and I haven't examined it closely, but in general it is NPOV that we would also have responses to criticisms if they are in academic sources. <span style="font-family:Palatino">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 21:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
== Replication Crisis in Psychology == | |||
== Affirm Above-mentioned Criticisms == | |||
While most evolutionary psychology theories themselves haven't been affected (due to being untestable), some portions have become scientifically unjustified due to the psychology research they were based on failing replication. | |||
This article is a particularly fine example of how wikipedia can be misleading – a complex topic like this requires the efforts of an expert (not just in the science but in encyclopaedic writing) – perhaps luckily, it seemed clear to me that no such person has contributed here before I invested time in reading it... | |||
Would a link to the page https://en.wikipedia.org/Replication_crisis#In_psychology be useful, or even a small paragraph on what it was together with the testability criticism? The page is pretty confusing so I'm not too sure more should be added. ] (]) 19:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Detail Matters== | |||
A quick glance reveals what is to all appearances a systemic bias. | |||
Given ] is scientific, evolutionary psychology still failed because: | |||
* Evolutionary history often spans from thousands to millions of years. We do not know about the details, especially on the details of ]. | |||
An article ''about'' the criticisms of something shouldn't list them and then purport to debunk each one – it smacks of one-sidedness (what's more, it serves to diminish a casual reader's initial interest in the topic). | |||
* Detail matters: If we don't know about the details, it is likely to be misunderstand or misinterpreted. ] (]) 06:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Consider that if, ''in reality'', all such criticisms have been so thoroughly dealt with, there is no 'controversy' and hence no real requirement for this article in the first place! | |||
Rewrite or restructure it in the form of an encyclopaedic article if it is to be taken at all seriously as such. | |||
] (]) 23:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC) | |||
==Slant== | |||
As ] says above, "An article ''about'' the criticisms of something shouldn't list them and then purport to debunk each one – it smacks of one-sidedness", is absolutely correct. Comments? ] (]) 06:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
== Merger == | |||
The two articles are each rather long. If they are merged the new article will be too long for some computers to handle. Then there will be pressure to split the article or to delete large sections of the content. Am I being paranoid? Could there be a conspiracy by opponents of evolution/evolutionary psychology to sabotage part of the articles?] (]) 17:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
:The reason I would like to see them merged is that the EP main article makes short shrift of the very real criticisms, whereas the EPC page is written inappropriately and is overlong. EP is controversial within the scientific community, unlike, evolutionary biology. ] (]) 18:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
===Controversies page should remain a separate page=== | |||
The main EP page should be about EP -- what it is. Historically, anti-EP folks have previously attempted to turn the main page into a political critique of the field. And, many of them have had a very meager understanding of the field. | |||
It is significant that those here who promote a merger complain about bias, however, none of them contribute to the content of the article itself. If they have something useful to contribute re criticisms of the field, then do so. And, then let the other side state their counterarguments. This is an excellent way for readers to assess both sides of the controversy and to arrive at their own judgments. | |||
There is a great deal of misinformation / disinformation about EP. This page helps to list the arguments pro and con. In addition, there are those who fall into the trap of the ] and/or ] who simply misunderstand the field, and who may have essentially political, rather than scientific motivations. ] (]) 06:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
:I would not quibble about the existence of a separate page. I am indeed no expert on biology, psychology, but I am a high school English teacher, if that counts for anything, and I think I can tell when the structure of something is meant to support one point or another. As it stands, this article seems to be supporting the conclusion that EP is valid and that the criticisms of it are not. If the scientific community at large has come to this conclusion, then this whole section ought not to exist or at least to be so long. | |||
:The only thing I would suggest is that the article be trimmed down and the "criticism" "counter-criticism" format scrapped for something else...I really have no idea, maybe something like an essay, at least something different than always letting EP get the final word. Again, if the scientific community thinks those who object to EP such triflers as they seem here, then there really isn't any need for this page to exist at all. ] (]) 05:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
::Some of the critics of EP are scientists. The controversy is real, unlike the manufactured controversy about evolution. ] (]) 21:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
*You have to ask yourself, "Why are laypeople ''and'' respected scientists anti-EP?" ] (]) 04:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC) | |||
All I really asked for were references. For example, the counter-argument about EP being Ethnocentric is completely unsourced and written in a very informal way. The counter-argument to Reification is also completely unsourced and frankly looks like OR. The response to the "is-ought" criticism amounts to "no they don't". I don't really care for the idea of merging, but I would rather this article didn't look like an internet forum argument that spilled over into Misplaced Pages. This isn't my area of expertise, so I don't have sources on hand to fix either side of the argument. I think removing the "criticism" and "counter-argument" headers would help. It would also force the use of sources, since you would need them in order to write a coherent paragraph. No one could vaguely refer to "Evolutionary Psychologists" or "Critics". And I would still like to see more of this in the main EP article.] (]) 04:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC) |
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References from above
A page about criticisms that does not seem to do a good job showcasing much of the criticism
Whether this is more a matter of formatting or not, this page could seem to use some big improvements in the way information is being presented, and with respect to the nature of the information discussed.
In the second paragraph from the first section on modularity, we have a paragraph that is clearly dedicated to criticism of massive modularity. Interestingly we see a reference to a response tacked on in a few words at the end. In contact, the third paragraph from this same section looks quite like a back and forth commentary between the debates or arguments of specific researchers. By the time we proceed through the section on EEA and hypothesis testing, the majority of the text becomes dedicated to showcasing incredibly specific responses to extremely short summaries of the EP's criticisms.
We find some of the paragraphs are dedicated to explaining a criticism, but it is always written to be about the views and arguments of a specific scholar. For people who are not used to reading about the works of specific people, this is not going to be helpful to orient naive readers to the issues around evolutionary Psychology. The issues need to be written in a more general fashion, like other wiki pages, spending less time explicitly mentioning the names of specific authors and more time spent clearly communicating the concepts and ideas. The only exception to this, for readability, should be when examples are warranted for the sake of illustrating something complicated to the reader.
I do not know my way around wikipedia, but I think these issues significantly compromise the quality of this page. At the very least, there needs to be some major formatting changes - like the introduction of more sub-headings, and a more principled way of writing the responses to these criticism (particularly as it bears on the amount of words spent on these responses).
As it stands, a skim read gives the impression that there is just as much, and possible more words spent on responses to criticisms as there are explaining the criticisms themselves. What's worse is that the criticisms and the responses are not clearly delineated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.96.87.101 (talk) 07:33, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
At least one of the responses to criticisms here seems to be really, really bad.
The article says
"Steve Stewart-Williams argues, in response to claims that evolutionary psychology hypotheses are unfalsifiable, that such claims are logically incoherent. Stewart-Williams argues that if evolutionary psychology hypotheses can't be falsified, then neither could competing explanations, because if alternative explanations (e.g. sociocultural hypotheses) were proven true, this would automatically falsify the competing evolutionary psychology hypothesis, so for competing explanations to be true, then evolutionary psychology hypothesis must be false and thus falsifiable."
The problem is that this assertion is that it doesn't really mesh with the way science is done. Alternative explanations will never be "proven true" in the sense that Mr. Stewart-Williams is describing-generally, an idea in science (other than math) is accepted when people try to prove it false a bunch of times but can't. Also, by his logic, "unfalsifiablity" can never be a real concern since if any other idea is "proven true," it would falsify every other idea. There's probably more really bad logic that doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the article, but that was what really jumped out at me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.189.168.53 (talk) 12:15, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
- I agree, the whole section on falsifiability strikes me as overlong and giving excessive attention to amateurish arguments. I'm reluctant to radically change it but would appreciate insight about how to handle it or determine if my impression is shared or not. CasualUser10 (talk) 23:15, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- This entire article reads like a "Response to criticism of evolutionary psychology" and not an article on the actual criticism. 76.144.81.249 (talk) 21:37, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- There's a lot here and I haven't examined it closely, but in general it is NPOV that we would also have responses to criticisms if they are in academic sources. Crossroads 21:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Replication Crisis in Psychology
While most evolutionary psychology theories themselves haven't been affected (due to being untestable), some portions have become scientifically unjustified due to the psychology research they were based on failing replication. Would a link to the page https://en.wikipedia.org/Replication_crisis#In_psychology be useful, or even a small paragraph on what it was together with the testability criticism? The page is pretty confusing so I'm not too sure more should be added. Hihyphilia (talk) 19:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Detail Matters
Given evolutionary biology is scientific, evolutionary psychology still failed because:
- Evolutionary history often spans from thousands to millions of years. We do not know about the details, especially on the details of neuro-evolution.
- Detail matters: If we don't know about the details, it is likely to be misunderstand or misinterpreted. Cloud29371 (talk) 06:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC)