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Someone complemented the article this morning. To a subset of the online virtual community, this is a significant portion of this software's history, and is not considered a "plug" or "vanity page"
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== The Isles 15 ==
Hi there,


The Isles 15 came out before 1.1. Though ILAB/OLC was written based on the 1.1 version, OLC had already made its rounds as "TheIsles15" and "TheIsles16" one year earlier. ] (]) 15:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Misplaced Pages would love if you join, but you're welcome to edit anonymously if you wish.
:Prove it, the only decent source I know of says Jul 29, 1994. There's some evidence of a limited release in early 1994. --] (]) 16:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


First of all, prove that it wasn't ]. We're here to prove that it WAS WRITTEN, not RELEASED by the end of 1993, not 1994 as this erroneous article states. Furthermore, OLC was written initially for Merc 2.0, not 2.2 -- we kept updating OLC as they released new versions of Merc throughout 1993. 2.0b was the one I started with I believe. This occurred earlier in the year. As soon as 2.2 was released in October, we were already porting our 2.0b version to 2.2. We did all of our development on MS-DOS using the DJ Delorie GNU C Compiler for MS-DOS.
Nice online creation article, but just look in the page history to see some changes I made to it, to bring it up to Misplaced Pages's style standards.


<pre>
Anyway, thanks for joining, I hope you'll stay! If you need any help, just ask me on my talk page, or ask at the Village pump.
Timeline, April 5, 1993 - December 31, 1993


Merc 2.0 released in 1993 : Merc 2.0 Beta released for anon ftp - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups
- user:zanimum


Already on MSDOS: Merc for dos - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups April, 1993
----


Already distributed by April 21: Merc 2.0 Beta - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups Mid-1993


This is the post that shows Hidden Worlds added their OLC, mid-1993. It was never distributed and only worked on that mud. It was written by Kalgen, who also wrote another un-distributed OLC. This was the first one I ever saw on a Merc
and it was the inspiration for ours though I never immorted -- Chris Woodward did -- our OLC was released only
a few months later: Merc2 Area Editor - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups


Me announcing CthulhuMUD using my friend Chris Tchou's Andrew account:
== Cleaned up stuff ==
Cthulhu MUD - rec.games.mud.diku | Sept 1, 1993 --
I cleaned up a bit of stuff to try to stick closer to the ] guidelines, since this page was showing a warning about it. Much of the remaining stuff is also figured out, but I don't have time to fully reread this all to check.
this is precisely the time when we wrote OLC for our MUDs. It was only a few weeks/a month later that it was hacked and
*Discussions of minor changes, like removing ads. --]
stolen, so we then released it publically. I re-released it several times in 1993 and 1994. This is the basis for the
*"Information about the origins of the first publically released OLC" section, because ] --]
claim of October 15th. A week or month either way from October 15th is when it was written, period. I believe
*Discussion of the inspiration on OLC seems to have been agreed upon, and has reference to the older editing systems in existance before OLC. --]
CthulhuMUD was hacked on Halloween, 1993.
*SMAUG vs. TheIsles/NiMUD code comparison: this should be elsewhere, if you feel it's noteworthy somehow to the article, then save it somewhere and link to it. Check the history if you need it. As it stands today, this article doesn't mention SMAUG at all, making the discussion of SMAUG on the talk page seem even less significant. I think the right thing to do would be to make headings and just list online creation systems and have sections about each. With a name like "online creation", it might even be appropriate to merge this article with another one. --]


Cthulhu MUD the saga continues - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups Looking for a site <- Sept 1993
:Why would the name have anything to do with it? It is OLC/Online Creation, not Online Building. There is a distinction there and to be accurate we must make distinctions. Also, all of these fall under the category of 'editor' - which is exactly what it is; an editor. It just happened to be a live editor, not an offline one.


Where's Hidden Worlds..?? - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups Hidden Worlds goes down
::Well, "building" went the way of the delete key when Hidden Worlds went down. This claim about MozartMUD is unfounded. Thoric has yet to produce proof that there even was a MozartMUD building system back then. Frankly, I was on most popular muds and couldn't find online building anywhere other than Hidden Worlds. When viewing a copy of SillyMUD from 1993, I saw no online building code in it. So versions of The Isles (NiMUD) which Thoric still keeps on his ever-changing bullshit archive are, well, not enough to prove that SMAUG or Silly had anything to do with what later became MozartMUD's online building. It is my guess that OLC was still the first publically available online MUD editor for Diku-derived muds. MUSHes, a seperate project entirely, are developed almost completely online with a live scripting language, and are better designed, but don't come with a lot of predeveloped systems or areas ("levels"). Thoric has admitted to this. I do not claim ownership over his work in any way, I just want him to stop claiming he's the 'god of muds' and admit that he's just a programmer! If he wants to manipulate history of this software to his benefit, so be it -- but this article speaks the truth about the origins of Hidden Worlds DIKU, Online "building" and the publically available multi-modal OLC. Chris' parents are behind me in this fight- though they have no intention of suing Thoric, they certainly wouldn't want the only popular software work their son ever did to be claimed by someone else.


Hidden Worlds is back up! - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups Hidden Worlds back up!
*I'm the Dread Pirate Roberts! - ] --]
*Current news on OLC which would be more appropriate on the OLC web site, ] --]
*More on copyrights section: was primarily personal arguments and not about copyrights. None of the information that came up in it was anything new and not mentioned in the ] article. --]
*Personal attacks. --]
**...and again later --] 11:38, 22 July 2005 (UTC)


CircleMUD 2.11 now available at ftp.cs.jhu.eduub/CircleMUD - rec.games.mud.diku |
=== Stuff that should be cleaned up ===
Sept 19, 1993, Circle 2.11 released
*Dates are extremely contradictory and should be fixed up. --]
*"Main differences between SMAUG's online building and NiMUD OLC" is a bit long and shouldn't be directly copied and pasted to the article, but it should probably have a one or two line summary in the article.


Cthulhumud - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups User looking for CthulhuMUD October 7th, 1993
== Basic Structure of OLC ==


C T H U L H U M U D - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups CthuhuMUD back on new server
Hey man it's good to see you hang out on the 'new mud' (wikipedia d=):
:''Likewise ;)''


CircleMUD 2.20 now available at ftp.cs.jhu.eduub/CircleMUD - rec.games.mud.diku |
NiMUD/TheIsles, written 1992-1993/1994:
CircleMUD 2.20 released Nov 17, 1993
Commands:
redit
oedit
medit
aedit


NiMUD had been created at this point, and my personal "NiMUD" development site, post-Chris Woodward's involvement:
Enters a 'special mode' which responds to user input; this is the editor mode, and is an extension of the communications routines.
NIMUD. - rec.games.mud.diku | Dec 3, 1993


Evidence that OLC was already written:
STR(b,c); <- added to NiMUD source code to fix a distinction problem related to referencing strings in both the "index" of the entry and the "incidence" of the entry (the copy created for the world), this may be the easiest way to trace DIRECT CODE INSERTION into new code, because it is an indicator of NiMUD's original code design change to the standard Merc/Diku string routines; this is often 'hacked out' in copies that were ported to other softwares. For those who just 'studied NiMUD and then modified and/or created new code to match its features', this macro may be omitted.
Looking for online creation code - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups Dec 27-31, 1993 ..
:''(A nice macro that certainly may have made the SMAUG code cleaner. I really don't see the point of anyone hacking it out to purposely make their code more cumbersome. --] 14:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC))''
I gave it to the one person, then the same day I released it because I felt everybody deserved it.
:::''It is an indicator of what Merc-derived sources use TheIsles-based OLC.'' -Locke
::::SMAUG (as distributed) does not contain this STR(b,c) macro. --] 17:44, 13 July 2005 (UTC)


</pre>
Another note is that NiMUD's feature set is this:


<- OLC was made available in December, 1993, thus it had been written earlier than December, 1993.
Security for Building
Special 'mode'
Bit Keywords- Keywords at the command line to toggle bits
"Dig" or "dig-like" command, borrowed from MUSH
New database file format made similar to Merc's playerfile format
Prompt manipulation


] (]) 18:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I believe that Thoric, based on a statement he made to me over email similar to "I wanted to start with NiMUD", read through and understood OLC before writing a similar OLC, to say it was developed independently is not correct because he obviously read and understood the core features and functionality of the original Isles OLC, possibly his inspiration.


:There's a usenet post about considering a private release at Dec 31 1993, so the first release would have been January 1994, except there's only proof of the 1.0 release in mid 1994. I failed to find a usenet post of a public release or leak prior to that. --] (]) 19:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
:''(The statement was, "I wish I had started with NiMUD". Not only was NiMUD unreleased at the time (June 1994), my only inspiration came from using Mozart MUD's online building. --] 14:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC))''
::''You also made a statement to me that you started mudding in 1995.'' -Locke
:::No, I told you I opened in 1995. Realms of Despair opened in 1994, I mudded on Mozart in 1993, and mudded on VieMUD in 1992. --] 17:44, 13 July 2005 (UTC)


There is no reason to write "Copyright 1994" when it's obviously "Copyright 1993". We're here to prove that it WAS WRITTEN, not RELEASED by the end of 1993, not 1994 as this erroneous article states. ] (]) 05:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Zebesta's OLC, for instance, is not a direct correlation in its features or functionality to NiMUD/TheIsles OLC, as it uses these commands:


== First MUD with online creation ==
oset
zset
mset
rset


The line "The first publicly available mud that featured in-game creation of the game world was Monster" is wrong. The first publicly-available MUD that did this was ''Gods''; it was also "invented" by the IOWA system (they called them "multi-user player-extensible games"). See for details.
Has security, has limited (no user control) prompt manipulation.


The usual warnings about "first" apply, though. The reason that ''Monster'' is important is not that it was first, because it wasn't; rather, it's because today's MMOs descend along a line that passes through ''Monster''. ''Gods'' (and perhaps the IOWA MUDs) may have got there first, but they didn't propagate the idea to the present day. You can't even cut ''MUD'' version 2 out of the definition by invoking a "public release" clause, because it was released publicly. The term you're looking for is that ''Monster'' was the '''progenitor''' of today's in-world object creation. It's not the first, but it's the one from which current practice descends.
Has a special mode only for entering strings.


] (]) 12:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
SMAUG does contain functionality similar to "worldgen.c" from NiMUD's earlier releases.
:''(It was I who pointed that out to you. --] 14:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC))''
::''Is it credited?'' -Locke
:::No, that will have to be fixed. -Thoric


"Historical Notes:
::''Thanks, please do so. Surreal had left the project at that point, worldgen.c was an afterthought I added to inspire future mudders. I noticed that several mud engines now use code similar to this for generating areas; they also borrowed the terrain and ascii mapping features for some of the more 'ascii graphical' muds -- I think that's great, when properly cited; it was an idea borrowed from Rogue and Rogue-like games, which generate a lot of their content using random number generators with predetermined seeds. - Locke
Although the present system went live in October 1988, Gods began in 1985 as a non-commercial MUA; its author was inspired by MUD1 to write his own game, and was among the first people to do so. Gods was Shades' only rival to be the Prestel Micronet MUA.


Review:
SMAUG, written 1995/1996: ''(Realms of Despair was started in June of 1994, and released as SMAUG in 1996 --] 14:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC))''
The dominant concept in Gods, which permeates every facet of it, is that of object creation. Instead of becoming a wiz when one gains the appropriate experience points, one becomes a 'god'. Gods have the ability to alter the game at will, but doing so costs them points. When mortals cash in treasure for points, they take it to the temple of their favoured god. This will add to that god's points, as well as to their own. Thus, popular and respected gods will be able to make more changes to the game, and ones that are unpopular will lose the ability." Here it is called "Object Creation" .. by the way, why does this article focus on online MUD level editing, rather than just "OLC" which is Online Creation? Isn't that too broad of a scope for this article? ] (]) 08:27, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


:The article focuses on level editing mainly because the article was originally created by Herb Gilliland in order to back up some incorrect stuff in his NiMUD article, and much of the effort on this article has been spent correcting misinformation rather than expanding the article. If it was up to me, there wouldn't be a MUD-specific article about level editing because I don't think there's enough unique stuff about MUDs to make this article rather than adding onto other video game articles; perhaps other people have the same view as me and that'd be why they haven't added much to it. ] (] • ]) 23:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Commands:
redit
oedit
medit
aedit


:: Highly debatable, ] ... I am fairly certain that you are of no level of credible expertise to make such commentary. Furthermore, I wanted to mention that _no one_ has revised this article since Dr. Bartle revealed the Gods fact. Also, no one addresses the fact that "object creation" and "level editing" have little to do with the OLC software package released in 1993. I'd say the authors of this article were just being mean to the person who created the article, considering you have deleted almost every single reference to him in the last 405321960 revisions, and have continually kept the copyright dates measured incorrectly on this article. I doubt the primary editors of this article are at all interested in anything other than their continuing expression of FUD, and suppression of any and all speech that comes from anyone whom even may be incorrectly determined as the same person(s) as the initiator of this article. Also, someone has been redacting references to The Isles OLC / ILAB OLC on other articles even when they are factually correct (see the ] article). ] (]) 17:47, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Enters a 'special mode' which responds to user input; this is the editor mode, and is an extension of the communications routines.


:::"I am fairly certain that you are of no level of credible expertise to make such commentary" Perhaps logging in to an account and referring to yourself in the first person might make other people feel that you yourself have some level of credibility, and maybe even raise it up to the level of my own.
:''(Incorrect. SMAUG has the commands: redit oset mset aset rset (and others). They do not enter a 'special mode' unless you type for example "oset <object> on", a functionality added later when builders requested it. SMAUG originally didn't even support a special editing mode... it was added later. --] 14:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC))''
:::"Also, no one addresses the fact that "object creation" and "level editing" have little to do with the OLC software package released in 1993." The article seems to specifically say that Armageddon which made its way into SillyMUD (I assume that's what you're talking about, since it was released in 1993) allowed builders to create "zones, rooms, exits, objects, and mobiles". Why would it say that it had little to do with those things?
::If it was added later, then it was borrowed from the dominant and accepted form of OLC, TheIslesOLC, which uses that mode, and is a feature that is indicative of the modal design choice in TheIslesOLC. -Locke
:::"...suppression of any and all speech..." You posted that February 12 and I can look at it right now April 10; if I waited 2 more days then it'd be 2 months later. Obviously nobody's suppressing speech. The talk page or your user space is where speech goes, the article is where articles go. Blatantly obvious incorrect stuff doesn't belong in the article, but is perfectly fine as speech. ] (] • ]) 21:35, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
:::''It is likely that the builder(s) who requested it were used to it from building on OLC-based MUDs, so yes, that specific functionality indirectly came from OLC. --] 20:28, 13 July 2005 (UTC)''


== ] ==
Security for Building
Bit Keywords- handled differently, but still present
"Dig" or "dig-like" command, borrowed from MUSH
New database file format similar to Merc's playerfile format
Prompt manipulation/indicators


This should be mentioned. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:51, 19 January 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:''(SMAUG does not have a "dig" or a "dig-like" command. Are you certain that you are looking at the original SMAUG distribution, and not one that has OLC ported into it? --] 14:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC))''


Why? It has nothing to do with: MUDs, "OLC", text-based adventure games, "object and room creation" or the 1993 release of the "online creation package" which FYI has been completely eliminated from this lame article. ] (]) 07:36, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
By the way, ideas are not permissable as a copyright; you cannot own an idea, merely the expression of it. Thoric "owns" his building system, but to state that it was developed independently is completely false, as it is similar to and was influenced by TheIsles OLC, the original publically available OLC.
:Of course it is going to be similar since both systems are used to edit Merc 2.x data structures online, but if you take a close look at the code, you can see obvious and striking differences. --] 14:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


: It looks to me like it's quite relevant. From that article: "The engine has won awards for its advanced support of online creation" (then goes on to list specific examples). If true, it should be included. I'll update this article appropriately after validating the claims. I don't know where you got the idea that this article was solely about a single obscure software package. If it were, it wouldn't be worth keeping. ] (]) 14:24, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
Also, it might be of note that NiMUD OLC versions 5 and later use these commands translations (with legacy macros):
redit->sedit
oedit->pedit
medit->aedit
aedit->zedit (aedit removed)


== Scope ==
Thoric also added additional editor(s): a skill, spell, race and document edit.
:''(SMAUG has sset, setrace, hset and hedit. Again, if you look at the code you'll see it's completely different stuff, especially sset which supports SMAUG's "SMAUG spells", which allows you to create new spells online without having to know how to write C code. --] 14:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC))''


This article has two scopes in one. (1) The majority is about the ability to edit a virtual world within the world itself as a feature of ]s (multi-user dungeons). I haven't found a single ] that describes this feature in any depth, i.e., to use as a reason to create and redirect to an entry of ]. The vast majority of the MUD-related refs in this article are primary sources, unreliable, or only tangentially related to the topic. (2) The second part of the scope—minor in terms of weight within the article—is contemporary ], e.g., for Second Life, and is shoehorned into this concept of "online creation".
== Main differences between SMAUG's online building and NiMUD OLC ==


I'm seeing nothing useful to do with the MUD part, due to lack of source material, and I don't see how this article would be repurposed around user-generated content when there is ]. I'm planning to merge and redirect there. <small>(not ], please <code>{{tl|ping}}</code>)</small> <span style="background:#F3F3F3; padding:3px 9px 4px">]</span> 05:42, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
Most of SMAUG's online building and editing commands are extensions of commands that came with Merc already... '''rset''', '''oset''', '''mset''', etc. Editing works using a '''prototype''' flag system whereby you take an object or mobile, toggle its prototype flag, and while the prototype flag is set, changes made to that instance object or mobile will be reflected onto the "index" or prototype object or mobile. Newly created objects or mobiles (created with the commands '''ocreate''' and '''mcreate''' respectively) start out with the prototype flag on. Rooms don't really need a prototype since there is no "index" or prototype room, but the flag is still used, and can be used to disable certain functionality during development if required (for example, players are not allowed to use prototype objects). This prototype model of design was used on Mozart MUD (which used SillyMUD code, not Merc).

NiMUD OLC on the other hand uses '''redit''', '''oedit''' and '''medit''' exclusively to put you into an editing mode, where you type "create <vnum>" to create a new obj/mob or room, and these commands work exclusively on the "index" objects and mobiles, leaving the Merc oset/mset commands to operate exclusively on non-index (instances of) objects and mobiles.

To clarify things for those unfamiliar, Merc uses a system whereby instances of objects and mobiles are cloned off of a master "index" object or mobile (of a particular vnum -- virtual number identifier).

Merc came with '''oset''' and '''mset''' commands to allow editing specific instances of objects or mobiles (the copies), but to change the master copy of an object or mobile, you would have to edit the area file by hand with a text editor, and restart the mud. SMAUG extended the oset/mset commands to support editing the master index objects/mobiles when a '''prototype''' flag was set on the object/mobile. NiMUD OLC instead added new editing commands to work on the master index objects/mobiles directly. I believe this in itself is evidence that they are not based on each other. If anything it seems like SMAUG's online building is closer to the Zebesta OLC you mention --] 14:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC)



== Tim on Jul 16 ==
First section removed due to relevance.

Second thing, I don't know enough about this to rewrite it very accurately, but the part talking about SMAUG's online building sounds like it has changed and isn't clear in what way it has. The original message says that SMAUG's system was completely separate from the one called OLC, and inspired by some other online building systems, and the new one says that it was influenced by OLC with no references to the other systems. After reading the entire article, one comes away with the idea that all online creation systems (at least all diku ones) were based on this one system and that there have never existed any other systems. For the SMAUG one, I don't know where it had inspiration from because I'm not terribly interested in diku muds. Someone should probably e-mail whoever's responsible for SMAUG and ask them directly, and then put their response on this article, or else go from the SMAUG readme (which I haven't looked for due to not being interested enough).
:Doesn't anyone read anymore? I've already stated serveral times in this talk page that SMAUG's online building was created in 1994 after using MozartMUD's online building in 1993. I am responsible. I wrote the code. --] 16:02, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

No I don't think Thoric is responsible for that version of online building; and I still attribute Kalgen of Zebesta as the original developer of the first online building, at Hidden Worlds DIKU. SillyMUD was available in 1993, not MozartMUD, and I cannot find any relevant code that shows that it was publically available. The point of releasing software into public consumption is to share it with the group, and since it was not shared with the group, it was not publically available even if it existed. I do not claim to have ownership of the idea - NO ONE DOES - but I do claim that "online creation" was a product developed by myself and Chris Woodward, and released to public consumption in or around 1994. -Locke
::I didn't claim responsibility for the Mozart code, only responsibility of the SMAUG code. --] 04:33, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

All I have info about is that OLC was inspired by Hidden Worlds' system... and that comes straight from the surviving author, so that's pretty clear.
I quoted that on the talk page earlier, and here is another more recent quote saying basically the same thing.
This quote comes from NiM5.beta_2.prerelease.tar.gz:
We stole the ideas from Hidden Worlds MUD,
who had the initial working concept of an OLC; a very
advanced feature at the time for a Diku/Merc 1.0; and
perhaps the only Merc 1.0 boasting an online zone
building system.
Surreality wrote the major framework. It was designed
by both Surreality and Locke by stealing ideas from
Kalgen, who ran a mud called Zebesta with his friend
Zlixlt. Kalgen (Alex Dzur of University of Washington,
Seattle, Washington) had designed an interesting
derivation of Merc after his time as an immortal on
Hidden Worlds, where he was among the more prestigious
immortals. Kalgen's Mud Zebesta has disappeared; sad
but true it is lost to history. One of the greatest
muds ever seen, which had many of the features and
careful considerations of a game worthy of being called
"great" --
The "Mozart" OLC software was not written at the time,
and has come later, perhaps developed simulteanously,
but most likely a "reinvented wheel" to avoid the NiMUD
OLC license, which of course has been ignored by a
great many MUD developers. Thoric of Realms of Despair
lends this to the fact that much of the godwars variants,
pirate and deluxe for example, were "leaked" and being
that this is true, often MUD developers, often in their
secretive nature, have failed to follow Jason Dinkel's
license which stated that those using the EnvyOLC/ILAB
OLC ports must CONTACT LOCKE@MUGS.NET (now swerves@hotpop.com

The current page has no reference to Hidden Worlds, I assume this was a mistake in editing, because the current context makes it sound like NiMUD had it, and Locke never became an immortal to build, and thus implies that Locke was never an immortal on NiMUD or something. Please re-read before clicking submit, everyone, and use the preview button too :)

Licensing... I was confused from reading the article, and I didn't know why it mattered that ILAB/OLC had permission to edit it or not. I have a better understanding after reading some files, but I think others shouldn't have to go to as much trouble. The current message sounds like it was written from an anti-OLC point of view and might scare people from using it based on fears of an overly restrictive license. In reality, NiMUD's license sounds like they require you to follow the diku and merc licenses, plus get permission of Locke if you're going to re-distribute any of his code in a derivative. That's not very limiting in relation to other diku derivatives I've seen. Getting permission before re-distributing is the only weird thing. It's not the most open of licenses, but isn't terrible scary like the article suggested. I'm just going to add a quick thing saying that OLC is under the same license as NiMUD, and then maybe later I'll update NiMUD so that it talks about the license. I think the "no permission was granted" line sounds very anti-OLC, so I'm going to keep it but reword it slightly and just say that other users haven't followed the license when distributing their code. Misplaced Pages also shouldn't be used for keeping a running tally of who has been granted permission or not, for obvious reasons.

Ick, that's alot of stuff I wrote and researched for such a small amount of changes. Hopefully you can see exactly why I changed the parts I did though.

== Locke's Clarifications to Dating ==
1,2,3 removed for relevance

4) The word 'beforehand' does not exist in the human language; it was a side-effect of my efforts as a youth to create 'a new language' - thus the convention of 'Darkwood' and its appearance in Wildgames' FATE. It's before hand or before-hand (arguably). This appears in earlier NiMUDs but was corrected.

5) The original message posted about his death is still visible at
]

6) I do not believe Thoric did not use NiMUD's OLC as a model for his own. I also think the influence of his builders on features is part of the way that the influence was transmitted. I think he should use OLC, and hereby grant him permission to do so, with his SMAUG releases. No author of a server has ever been given that permission before. The stipulations of that permission is that we are properly credited and cited and that he includes a link to The Isles webpage and email address in his documentation.

::''This has to do with other software (ROMolc, Ivan's OLC) using my software without permission granted from me directly; AND they fail to cite us at all- this is the problem, they don't cite us and now people are believing that Alander (or whoever wrote ROMolc) and Ivan came up with the stuff. It's bogus and very unfair to us. Obviously sabotage for the appeasement of their respective egos. I only gave permission to 1 person to port it (Jason Dinkel) -- while I have heard "theft is the sincerest form of flattery". I also would have liked to have been notified as the license requests.

:::Proof for which? I guess we'd need statements from Mozart builders that were around in 1993 (and earlier) for that. The same probably goes for Realms of Despair. If you like I could send you a copy of build.c from August 1995 from when we first started using RCS, before switching to CVS (which you can compare to the one in the SMAUG 1.01 distribution). This would give you an idea of how advanced the code was at that time, and from looking over it, I've noticed it is pre-"mset on"/"oset on", meaning that you can't lock into an editing mode onto an object or a mobile. It wasn't added until we were preparing for the SMAUG release, and was likely added at the request of a beta tester:

revision 1.133
date: 1996/10/09 22:19:07; author: derek; state: Exp; lines: +230 -27
Added lock-in modes for redit, oset and mset

:::''Also I would like to point out that statements aren't enough: I would need to see files dated back to then, corroborating the original developers of Mozart's story, and perhaps then -- but of course all of this can be manipulated if you can convince Mozart's original developers to lie. SillyMUD does not seem to contain this code in its 1993 version. I am fairly certain that there is no proof that SillyMUD had any public code containing "building" before OLC. In examinating of early SillyMUD source code, I note that it does not contain any building code, only player editing code.. - Locke

Removed due to relevance.

:Misplaced Pages being accurate and all that though, especially because I would like to be able to reliably use it for researching stuff. ] is not anything revolutionary (wow, a multi-modal editor, almost 20 years after ] or ], what a great new idea! ooh, and it changes things in real-time, just other MUDs since the ]). --]

:It certainly was for MUDDING, Diku specifically, as the OLC code has been ported to 30 different softwares and is in use today as a standard feature. It's origins are clarified. Mud software predating OLC showed none of these features; MUSHes, however, were pretty much virtual putty in the hands of creators- a hands-off approach to the hard coded elements of the server technology. It's certainly better than its 'live command line' equivalent for ease of use alone. -- Locke

Removed due to relevance ("Hacking of Cthulhu")

Current build is available at ].

Cheers,
Locke
locke@mugs.net

Copyright stuff removed.

== Merc ==

Many files do not follow the license, namely, Merc and derived. How does Merc do this? Also, many of the Merc areas contain copyrighted lyrics to popular rock songs, snippets from popular written media, etc..

== Online Creation is not Online Building ==

I truly believe online building is not the same as online creation, was developed seperately, even though Online Creation's modal features were later included in implementions of SMAUG. -Locke

:Alrighty then. We only really need one "online building/creation" article with a generic term to cover all angles (OLC, OLB, MUSHs, etc), of which OLC would be a subsection. --] 22:35, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

]

Comments removed.

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The Isles 15

The Isles 15 came out before 1.1. Though ILAB/OLC was written based on the 1.1 version, OLC had already made its rounds as "TheIsles15" and "TheIsles16" one year earlier. 98.111.199.226 (talk) 15:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Prove it, the only decent source I know of says Jul 29, 1994. There's some evidence of a limited release in early 1994. --Scandum (talk) 16:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

First of all, prove that it wasn't User:Scandum. We're here to prove that it WAS WRITTEN, not RELEASED by the end of 1993, not 1994 as this erroneous article states. Furthermore, OLC was written initially for Merc 2.0, not 2.2 -- we kept updating OLC as they released new versions of Merc throughout 1993. 2.0b was the one I started with I believe. This occurred earlier in the year. As soon as 2.2 was released in October, we were already porting our 2.0b version to 2.2. We did all of our development on MS-DOS using the DJ Delorie GNU C Compiler for MS-DOS. 

Timeline, April 5, 1993 - December 31, 1993
Merc 2.0 released in 1993 : Merc 2.0 Beta released for anon ftp - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups
Already on MSDOS: Merc for dos - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups April, 1993
Already distributed by April 21: Merc 2.0 Beta - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups Mid-1993
This is the post that shows Hidden Worlds added their OLC, mid-1993.  It was never distributed and only worked on that mud.  It was written by Kalgen, who also wrote another un-distributed OLC. This was the first one I ever saw on a Merc 
and it was the inspiration for ours though I never immorted -- Chris Woodward did -- our OLC was released only
a few months later: Merc2 Area Editor - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups
Me announcing CthulhuMUD using my friend Chris Tchou's Andrew account: 
Cthulhu MUD - rec.games.mud.diku | Sept 1, 1993 --
this is precisely the time when we wrote OLC for our MUDs. It was only a few weeks/a month later that it was hacked and 
stolen, so we then released it publically. I re-released it several times in 1993 and 1994.  This is the basis for the 
claim of October 15th.  A week or month either way from October 15th is when it was written, period.  I believe
CthulhuMUD was hacked on Halloween, 1993.
Cthulhu MUD the saga continues - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups Looking for a site <- Sept 1993
Where's Hidden Worlds..?? - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups Hidden Worlds goes down
Hidden Worlds is back up! - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups Hidden Worlds back up!
CircleMUD 2.11 now available at ftp.cs.jhu.eduub/CircleMUD - rec.games.mud.diku | 
Sept 19, 1993, Circle 2.11 released
Cthulhumud - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups User looking for CthulhuMUD October 7th, 1993
C T H U L H U M U D - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups CthuhuMUD back on new server
CircleMUD 2.20 now available at ftp.cs.jhu.eduub/CircleMUD - rec.games.mud.diku | 
CircleMUD 2.20 released Nov 17, 1993
NiMUD had been created at this point, and my personal "NiMUD" development site, post-Chris Woodward's involvement: 
NIMUD. - rec.games.mud.diku |  Dec 3, 1993
Evidence that OLC was already written: 
Looking for online creation code - rec.games.mud.diku | Google Groups Dec 27-31, 1993 ..
I gave it to the one person, then the same day I released it because I felt everybody deserved it.

<- OLC was made available in December, 1993, thus it had been written earlier than December, 1993.

98.111.199.226 (talk) 18:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

There's a usenet post about considering a private release at Dec 31 1993, so the first release would have been January 1994, except there's only proof of the 1.0 release in mid 1994. I failed to find a usenet post of a public release or leak prior to that. --Scandum (talk) 19:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason to write "Copyright 1994" when it's obviously "Copyright 1993". We're here to prove that it WAS WRITTEN, not RELEASED by the end of 1993, not 1994 as this erroneous article states. 98.111.199.226 (talk) 05:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

First MUD with online creation

The line "The first publicly available mud that featured in-game creation of the game world was Monster" is wrong. The first publicly-available MUD that did this was Gods; it was also "invented" by the IOWA system (they called them "multi-user player-extensible games"). See for details.

The usual warnings about "first" apply, though. The reason that Monster is important is not that it was first, because it wasn't; rather, it's because today's MMOs descend along a line that passes through Monster. Gods (and perhaps the IOWA MUDs) may have got there first, but they didn't propagate the idea to the present day. You can't even cut MUD version 2 out of the definition by invoking a "public release" clause, because it was released publicly. The term you're looking for is that Monster was the progenitor of today's in-world object creation. It's not the first, but it's the one from which current practice descends.

RichardBartle (talk) 12:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"Historical Notes: Although the present system went live in October 1988, Gods began in 1985 as a non-commercial MUA; its author was inspired by MUD1 to write his own game, and was among the first people to do so. Gods was Shades' only rival to be the Prestel Micronet MUA.

Review: The dominant concept in Gods, which permeates every facet of it, is that of object creation. Instead of becoming a wiz when one gains the appropriate experience points, one becomes a 'god'. Gods have the ability to alter the game at will, but doing so costs them points. When mortals cash in treasure for points, they take it to the temple of their favoured god. This will add to that god's points, as well as to their own. Thus, popular and respected gods will be able to make more changes to the game, and ones that are unpopular will lose the ability." Here it is called "Object Creation" .. by the way, why does this article focus on online MUD level editing, rather than just "OLC" which is Online Creation? Isn't that too broad of a scope for this article? 98.111.199.195 (talk) 08:27, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The article focuses on level editing mainly because the article was originally created by Herb Gilliland in order to back up some incorrect stuff in his NiMUD article, and much of the effort on this article has been spent correcting misinformation rather than expanding the article. If it was up to me, there wouldn't be a MUD-specific article about level editing because I don't think there's enough unique stuff about MUDs to make this article rather than adding onto other video game articles; perhaps other people have the same view as me and that'd be why they haven't added much to it. Atari2600tim (talk • contribs) 23:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Highly debatable, Atari2600tim ... I am fairly certain that you are of no level of credible expertise to make such commentary. Furthermore, I wanted to mention that _no one_ has revised this article since Dr. Bartle revealed the Gods fact. Also, no one addresses the fact that "object creation" and "level editing" have little to do with the OLC software package released in 1993. I'd say the authors of this article were just being mean to the person who created the article, considering you have deleted almost every single reference to him in the last 405321960 revisions, and have continually kept the copyright dates measured incorrectly on this article. I doubt the primary editors of this article are at all interested in anything other than their continuing expression of FUD, and suppression of any and all speech that comes from anyone whom even may be incorrectly determined as the same person(s) as the initiator of this article. Also, someone has been redacting references to The Isles OLC / ILAB OLC on other articles even when they are factually correct (see the Rivers of MUD article). 71.199.121.3 (talk) 17:47, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
"I am fairly certain that you are of no level of credible expertise to make such commentary" Perhaps logging in to an account and referring to yourself in the first person might make other people feel that you yourself have some level of credibility, and maybe even raise it up to the level of my own.
"Also, no one addresses the fact that "object creation" and "level editing" have little to do with the OLC software package released in 1993." The article seems to specifically say that Armageddon which made its way into SillyMUD (I assume that's what you're talking about, since it was released in 1993) allowed builders to create "zones, rooms, exits, objects, and mobiles". Why would it say that it had little to do with those things?
"...suppression of any and all speech..." You posted that February 12 and I can look at it right now April 10; if I waited 2 more days then it'd be 2 months later. Obviously nobody's suppressing speech. The talk page or your user space is where speech goes, the article is where articles go. Blatantly obvious incorrect stuff doesn't belong in the article, but is perfectly fine as speech. Atari2600tim (talk • contribs) 21:35, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

HeroEngine

This should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.4.68.112 (talk) 10:51, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Why? It has nothing to do with: MUDs, "OLC", text-based adventure games, "object and room creation" or the 1993 release of the "online creation package" which FYI has been completely eliminated from this lame article. 71.199.121.3 (talk) 07:36, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

It looks to me like it's quite relevant. From that article: "The engine has won awards for its advanced support of online creation" (then goes on to list specific examples). If true, it should be included. I'll update this article appropriately after validating the claims. I don't know where you got the idea that this article was solely about a single obscure software package. If it were, it wouldn't be worth keeping. Nandesuka (talk) 14:24, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Scope

This article has two scopes in one. (1) The majority is about the ability to edit a virtual world within the world itself as a feature of MUDs (multi-user dungeons). I haven't found a single reliable source that describes this feature in any depth, i.e., to use as a reason to create and redirect to an entry of MUD terminology. The vast majority of the MUD-related refs in this article are primary sources, unreliable, or only tangentially related to the topic. (2) The second part of the scope—minor in terms of weight within the article—is contemporary user-generated content, e.g., for Second Life, and is shoehorned into this concept of "online creation".

I'm seeing nothing useful to do with the MUD part, due to lack of source material, and I don't see how this article would be repurposed around user-generated content when there is an existing section for that already. I'm planning to merge and redirect there. (not watching, please {{ping}}) czar 05:42, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

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