Talk:On the Jewish Question: Difference between revisions

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			==Changes going forward==
	== Neither the ] nor ] shows any such title ==
			A. I think it would be helpful to rename the existing article sections to make them more in line with better articles on Marx works, this will not be a “bold edit” as I will just be changing section names, not their content. ] (]) 20:21, 16 January 2019 (UTC) I have renamed one for now, to be in line with the communist manifesto article.--] (]) 20:27, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

	That's not the title of the published ] form of Marx's work on the ]. --] (]) 04:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	==='''''World Without Jews'''''===
	The correct title, as it was first published in the English language is '''World Without Jews''' & --] (]) 04:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	Here's the LOC on it:
	:Marx, Karl, 1818-1883.
	:Uniform Title: Zur Judenfrage. English
	:Main Title: ''A world without Jews. Translated from the original German, with an introd. by ].''
	:Published/Created: New York, ]
	:Description: xii, 51 p. 20 cm.
	:Notes: ''"The first unexpurgated English language publication of papers ... originally published as a review of the writings of Dr. Bruno Bauer ... on ’the Jewish question.’"''
	::--] (]) 04:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:It is very doubtfull that ''A World without Jews'' was the first published translation in English language. However, the essay is known under ''On the Jewish Question'' today. Greeting, --] (]) 09:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::Check out the libraries' online catalogs - and rekieve your doubt. --!!

	==Requested move==
	This has been listed on ] as a move from ''A World Without Jews'' to ''On the Jewish Question''.

	ISTM that the first question is: What is the article about? Specifically, if it's to be about the English translation of 1959, then in terms of ] the existing name ''A World Without Jews'' is probably the one. On the other hand, if it's about the original German article of 1843, the question is more open; I'd guess that ''Zur Judenfrage'' is the most likely contender. ] (]) 09:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:The article is firstly about the original article published in 1844, the Runes edition is only a footnote. If you look at ] and ], you'll see that (except ]) all titels are in their English translation. Greeting, --] (]) 10:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::*(1) But that kind of analysis constitutes ].
	::*(2) If you consult the ] - as I have done - namely, the ] & ] ''Online Catalog(s)'' you will, very suprisingly, that there is no such "]" as '''''On the Jewish Question'''''!
	::*(3) The latter is the name of the ] by the ] ] institute(s). I do not think, to the best of my recollection, that either library lists this ] in its catalogs.
	::*(4) Finally, what the article is about - or should be about - is the (One or Single) ] which is in existence in '''three''' physical forms: (i) the ] or first ] of ], (ii) the 1959 ] in book form, and (iii) the online ''edition'' of the scholarly institute, the ], which is charged I think which ] of all these papers, and published the ].
	:::--] (]) 13:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::::Very few English-language publications use the ''A World Without Jews'' title. You should have waited for the move request to conclude rather than jumping the gun. Also, the addition in the body (first section) is unnecessary and seems to be there purely for the name change. Please take the time to review our ] policy clause. ] 13:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:*Please discuss things before you Revert my editing. Lets not have an Edit War. Please. I am open to your position if you discuss things! --] (]) 14:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	:*There are three other editors here. And I wish to hear what they say. Please do not Revert my Edits. --] (]) 14:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:*The other (two) present WP editors are ] and ]. I would like to discuss things with them also, please. I want to know their points of view as well. --] (]) 14:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::*The fact is that you are the one who is '']'' substantial changes. Not to mention that rather than wait a few days for an admin to close the ], you do it yourself a few hours after proposing it, despite objections. It doesn't look good, sorry. ] 14:44, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::*I think you are mistaken. I have only edited the first Paragraph. It is you who simply REVERTED that work, causing me to deal with your Reversion. Regarding "changes" I understand that WP policy says Be Bold in your Editing. And I have not Reverted - you have. --] (]) 14:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::*As to Substance, consider the First English Language Edition '''(1959)''' and what the Library Card says: ''"The first unexpurgated English language publication of papers ... originally published as a review of the writings of Dr. Bruno Bauer ... on 'the Jewish question.'"'
	'
	::That's said by librarians, not me. --] (]) 14:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:::::No, it's not "said by librarians." It's just a quote from the book. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 14:56, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	::::::Ludvikus goes so far as saying "that this text is only known in the United States and the United Kindgum by that ."<sup></sup> It just seems so far fetched that it's the dominant, not to mention the ''only'' title, for this famous work. Thx. ] 15:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	:::*Do we really need the bold text? It just comes across as too excited and aggrendizing. The article is known in the English-speaking world primarily by the conventional title; I'll refactor: <tt>A simple ] yields for ''A World Without Jews'' and for ''On the Jewish Question'' (with ~10,000 Misplaced Pages-related results omitted). Likewise: ] produces for the former versus for the latter.</tt> ] 14:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::::It's a bogus rendering of the actual title, and should not be in there. It has no historical credibility. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 14:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:::::Agreed. The fact that google has more than 20 times the mention of the "A World Without Jews" ''phrase'' and that scholar google has more than 35 times the mention is, I submit, highly revealing as per usage. ] 15:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:*Removed Boldface above. Sorry for that. And I agree that most likely that's the book's self discription. --] (]) 15:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:*But what's wrong with this twice Reverted (not by me) 3-sentence opening?: --] (]) 15:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	-----
	{{Cleanup\|date=April 2008}}

	{{otheruses}} <!-- Should REDIRECT to "Jewish question (disambiguation)" -->
	:''Or see ]''.

	'''''A World Without Jews''''', a.k.a. '''''On the Jewish Question''''' (]: '''''Zur Judenfrage'''''), is a ], 51 page ], published as a ], of a ] article(s) by ] originally written or published in autumn ].

	It is disputed whether or not it is ] (see ]).

	Scholars of Marxism maintain that it is one of Marx's earliest attempts to deal with ] that would later be called the ].
	:* --] (]) 15:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	-----
	You put the minor title before the dominant one (we're unsure if it the alternate should even be mentioned in the lead — also un-ref'd, untitled, plain url sources are problematic for the article, highly problematic for the lead paragraph, and immensely so for the lead sentence). The Marxian scholars is an unnecessary qualification — other, non-Marxian scholars also maintain this. The bite-sized paragraph that attributes antisemitism to Marx and this work beyond how it's treated in the mainstream and academia. None of the changes should be kept at this time. ] 15:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:OK. But that can all be ajusted, compromised, etc. And I do not think I'm responsible for all that. Also, I found a practical solution. I just now started a <nowiki>{{stub}}</nowiki> on ]. I was shocked to find that WP had no article on him. So can you guys, or gals as well, help me on that/him? I believe if we write about him we may find a compromise. Since it is he who published the text of our concern under the title AWWJ - and you people only want OTJQ. --] (]) 15:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::I'm interested in representing scholarly consensus, and since google scholar has ''+35 times'' the mention of the original, conventional title, it seems sensible we should go with that. Maybe somewhere in the article talk about the history and origin of the minority, alternate title, but I don't think we need to do it in the lead. Certainly no superseding the predominant one (I confess that after all we discussed already, you still asked what was wrong with it — I'm sorry, it does look a bit suspect). ] 15:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:::Just because the book description says first "unexpurgated" does not mean the "first time" — you're, again, conflating the two. ] 16:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::::'']''. I think I'm not intentionally responsible for your suspicions. Having said that, I find the German to be ] of this work, by the ]. The difference between your scholarship and mine is this: I go to the greatest libraries in the world - even the ] where ] so much of his time. But what do you do? You do ] using ] to do your own statistical surveys. And you ignore the fact that Google reproduces THIS (sorry for this shouting, but its just not being heard) article, which you wrote I believe. So what really going onwith your research? You are counting how many times what you said is repeated on].--] (]) 16:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::::And I challenge you to find just one other edition of this 1959 English language book. I'm goping now to the ] to see if I can do that. See you later (also, I need to eat something). --] (]) 16:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:::::What can I say? Your original synthesis with this book description inspires little confidence. The fact that both google and google scholar favour the conventional title by factors of tens speaks for itself, as per usage. There's nothing ''original'' about that, I didn't make it up. Not to mention that your version was poorly written, with idiosyncratic emphases, going on about that translation (I guess to prove this bogus alternate-title-as-predominant theory), with stunted prose, with an inexplicable first section that is basically a verbatim ] of that translation (again, awkwardly, to prove its validity?). Sorry for being so blunt, but it does not speak of quality. Maybe review some featured content, I don't know... ] 16:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	-----
	==='']''===
	I just stopped of at the ]. They have Seven (7) titles for this ]. See how many ones are in English:

	:* ''Zur Judenfrage nach dem Krieg; Zionismus oder Judentum in der Völkergemeinschaft? Ryba, R. Zur Judenfrage nach dem Krieg; Zionismus oder Judentum in der Völkergemeinschaft?
	:CALL NUMBER: DS141 .R9

	:* ''Zur judenfrage.'' Bresslau, Harry, 1848- Zur judenfrage. 1880
	:CALL NUMBER: DS135.G33 T73

	:* ''Zur Judenfrage, zwei Sendschreiben.'' Gauvain, Hermann von. Zur Judenfrage, zwei Sendschreiben. 1881
	:CALL NUMBER: 4DS 190

	:* ''Zur judenfrage nach den akten prozesses Rohling-Bloch.'' Kopp, Josef. Zur judenfrage nach den akten prozesses Rohling-Bloch. Von dr. Josef Kopp. 1886
	:CALL NUMBER: DS145.R7 K6 1886

	:* ''Zur "Judenfrage", zeitgenössische Original-Aussprüche.'' Klopfer, Carl Ed. Zur "Judenfrage", zeitgenössische Original-Aussprüche. Mit einer Vorbemerkung von Ernst Hallier. 1891
	:CALL NUMBER: 4DS 318

	:* ''Zur Judenfrage. English. Marx, Karl, 1818-1883. ''World without Jews.''Translated from the original German, with an introd. by Dagobert D. Runes. 1959

	:* ''Zur Judenfrage.'' Italian. 1982. Parinetto, Luciano. Marx e Shylock : Kant, Hegel, Marx e il mondo ebraico : con una nuova traduzione di Marx, La questione ebraica / Luciano Parinetto, Livio Sichirollo. 1982
	-----
	:Back from the ], a.k.a. the ]. It has Fifty Seven (57) entries for this title. I'm very hungry now, and will get something to eat. So can you see if you find any English translation(s) there? Thanks. --] (]) 16:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	-----
	That doesn't respond to anything I said with respect to usage in the English-speaking world. ] 16:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	:You're ignoring my point. Your ] ] constitutes ] - don't you realize that? Is this not an article about a ]? But in 1843 there was no book, just a ] which I believe is currently at the ] in Mascow (no?). And in 1844 it was a ] ]. Finally, in 1959, in the USA, it was printed as a small hardback book. It apparently has not been ]ed in a version which the ] found desireable to own and catalog. --] (]) 16:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:::Since when is the library of congress an authority on Marx? What I have in print, at home alone: "On the Jewish Question", translated from German by <tt><u>Loyd D. Easton and Kurt H. Guddat</u></tt> (1967) and I also have an "On the Jewish Question", translated by <tt>]</tt> (1963) I also have the same article/translation appearing in the Robert C. Tucker's (ed.) ''The Marx-Engels Reader'' (p.24), 1972. Again, that's just what I have at home, in print. As you look at various compilations and translations of this work, you will find that title vastly predominates, and this is exactly why ] mentions this title over ''35 times'' more. ] 17:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:I think this is all totally irrelevant. If the article is primarily about the original article (in German), then the German title should probably be used, as that's ''what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize'' (see ]). If the article is primarily about an English edition, then of course one of the English titles is a more likely candidate, and your research will help determine which of these is best. But we need to make the underlying decision first: What is the article about? And this still seems unanswered. ] (]) 17:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	::The title needs to reflect usage in the English-speaking world, especially in the scholarship. There has been various English translations, most use the conventional title. You two seem determined to use the single translated title which barely sees any usage. ] 17:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	:::Agree that ''the title needs to reflect usage in the English-speaking world'' but not ''especially in the scholarship''. The last comment is a bit strange if I'm one of the two, since I was the one who proposed using the German title. Using the translated title to me reeks of ] observation: ''And then rather than do either you'll do something else that neither likes at all''. ] (]) 17:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::::Well, again, I just don't think many English-speaking people would pick up on the German title, I know I most likely wouldn't. ] 18:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	Anyway, what is clear: we have various English translations of "The Jewish Question" title, widely used by modern scholars in the West (see above; I haven't even touched the East: also translated the same). On the other side, we have a single "A World Without Jews" translated title, scarcely used in the scholarship (online: for eg., google scholar: less than 100 mentions vs. 3,500; in print: in various compilations and so on). ] 17:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::What's it about? Why are you not Bold as WP wishes. It's obviously about what Marx wrote in 1843. It was reissued under varius titles. That is absolutely important. And in fact, it can only be about two other things, the varius ] interpretations, and the ] ones. Have I ommitted any? So I appreciate very much the references give by our editor above. I will look into that. But, it is not for us to speculate on the so-called ] in general. We do also have now a disambiguation page, do not forget: ]. So you can choose the other meanings you wish to develop. --] (]) 17:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:::Probably I'm not as bold as you wish because I like to conform to Misplaced Pages's policies and procedures, and also a ]. Please ]. ] (]) 17:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::::No one takes the Runes version seriously. A 1960 review by David T. Cattel in the The Western Political Quarterly says Rune's "''introduction can be dismissed as propaganda without scholarly value''." Marx scholar Robert C Tucker reviewed it in 1960 in The Slavic and East European Journal and said ''"Runes, who has produced here a not completely accurate new translation of the essay, wittingly or unwittingly misses the main point in giving it the misleading title "A World Without Jews", and in using it to present Marx, in his Introduction, as a theoretical originator of modern totalitarian practices of anti-Semitism. The criticism of Marxism is a very important task for scholars, but it should not be performed on such a flimsy or fraudulent basis''." additionally, it wasnt the first English translation--the Foreign Languages Publishing House in Moscow did an earlier English translation. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 17:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:::::Very good points, which belong in the article IMO, assuming we're not going to have a separate article for the Runes version, which is another possible outcome. ] seems citable enough. ] (]) 18:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	::::::We can mention that in a section but in the lead would be excessive — and a re-title would be... highly irrational. ] 18:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	:::I'm not bold as ''you'' wish me to be, Ludvikus, because the three books I possess in print which featrue the work (that use two different translations) all use OtJQ; because all other translations —except that single one— I've seen use that title; because marxists.org (the largest repository of marxist works) use that title; because google scholar mentions it +35 time more. ''Et cetera, etc.'' Being bold does not mean giving ] to a single source/title, one that by every measure sees much less usage than the original, longstanding one. I doubt you would be able to gain consensus and persuade me so long as you fail to show usage. ] 18:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	===Process===

	So, what now? It's been moved, despite the move debate still having several days to run. The move notice at ] still reads ''A World Without Jews → On the Jewish Question'' but the one on this page now reads ''It has been proposed below that On the Jewish Question be renamed and moved to On the Jewish Question.'' Do I move it back and protect it? That would mean that the current lead section was completely out of step with the title. Suggestions welcome, please try to make them consistent to Misplaced Pages policy, procedures etc.. ] (]) 17:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::You do not need to protect it as far as I'm concerned. I certainly am not going to Revert anything. I'm interested in ] and ] and not in an Edit War. Regarding Boldness - I do not understand your reaction to that. It is WP policy to tell editors to be bold. That just means that we should use our judgment - to the limit of an edit war. Now I want to take some time-out to research the comments by editor ]. I'm hopeful we can reach a consesus. Cheers. --] (]) 18:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:I reversed the order at the RM page. Now we are having a discussion about whether to move it to the new title, because it was moved without consensus or a proper move discussion (which is why I moved it back). Thanks for your patience. ] 18:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	::Also, I just realized I confused you in the above with another. I'll be back in a flash with his/her name & contribution. --] (])

	:::I was considering moving it back to ''A World Without Jews'' which was the title at the start of the discussion regarding this WP:RM. My primary reason for being here is to help others sort it out. This preemptive move made this a bit more difficult IMO, but reversing it would just make it worse. Or that was my feeling.

	:::By all means be bold, but also learn from your mistakes and those of others. Preemptive move(s) are not helpful IMO. ] (]) 18:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:No problemo, Andrewa. I had not believed there would be strong objection to my Move. But we've "Moved on" as follows:

	::*Also, I just realized I confused you in the above with another. I'll be back in a flash with his/her name & contribution. --] (])
	::*Here's very informative comment(s) I find so useful I'll Cut & Past them here for all of us to ponder carefull:
	::**A ] review by ] in the The ] says Rune's "''introduction can be dimissed as propaganda without scholarly value''."
	::**Marx scholar ] reviewed it in 1960 in The ] and said ''"Runes, who has produced here a not completely accurate new translation of the essay, wittingly or unwittingly misses the main point in giving it the misleading title "]", and in using it to present Marx, in his Introduction, as a theoretical originator of modern totalitarian practices of ].
	::**The criticism of ] is a very important task for scholars, but it should not be performed on such a flimsy or fraudulent basis''." additionally, it wasnt the first English translation--the ] in ] did an earlier English translation. ]
	::::I personally thank ] for these facts. What I'm most greatful for are these precise and exact refernces which can be verified and put into our Encyclopedia. Let me digest all this relevant material. --] (]) 18:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	::::Again, as long as it isn't in the lead. That was the problem. That and that odd first section. ] 18:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	:::Let's not overdo the proceduralism. Unilateral, undiscussed moves should follow ]. As there were (strong) objections, it was reverted back. Now a proper ] about it can take place. When all else fails, use ]. ] 18:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	:'''El_C''', I'm with you. I think we've moved on. Here's where I am now, after I've diggested it.
	:*The Question is what is the article about, is it not. Can we agree that it's about that writting of Marx of 1843 which he first published in 1844 under the German title which is also the ] given to it by the LOC & the BL? And therefore, that should be the title of the article.
	:*Next, I have just turned the Red ] into Blue ]. Who knows why that was necessary & is relevant here? I suspect that's where the Original ]s of Marx are now, and that the Institute has changed its name in 1999 to that long one I cannot remember. Anyway, I believe that they are the ones who made the Digital version of our text widely available in the 1999's (before 1999) under the name the Scholars gave it at the institute and that these were published in the ] of Marx and Engles around that time. And that's the kind of research were need to do for our Misplaced Pages because no one else has done it for us. --] (]) 18:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	Ludvikus, if you had read the wikipedia article you would know that a manuscript of the essay ''Zur Judenfrage'' has not been transmitted.
	According to books.google, the book ''Anti-Semitism and the Jewish Question'' by I. Rennap from 1943 has a paragraph "Marx on the Jewish Question" on page 65. Thus it seems that the essay had been called ''On the Jewish Question'' in English language before the book of Runes appeared in 1959. Greetings, --] (]) 20:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	:I don't understand what you're saying? Please correct your typos, if any? You're the one who gives specifics, so I'm very interested in any ] you direct me to. In the mean time, can you guys please help me fix the "REDIRECT" of the Disambiguation page? --] (]) 20:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	:I've linked the above - hope you don't object? I'm digesting what your saying still! --] (]) 20:44, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	::He's saying an English translation using the OtJQ title existed almost two decade before Rune's title. ] 20:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	::Great! We're getting somewhere finally. Here's the book: . It's a short work, secondary one, and a commentary. I'm a bibliophile and am interested in that fact. I'll try to learn more about it. But - it shows nothing about the lack of an English imprint preeding 1959. The "Jewish question" is what the subject of the book of Marx is all about. So what? Naturally, this book will talk about the "Jewish question" as Marx so it. But you guys have utterly failed to show me that the "book" published in English is, and remains, "]." I agree that Marx is not responsible for that. But you guys fail to distinguish between the Title of the Text and its Content - 2 different things. --] (]) 21:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	::: Ludvikus, can you provide any citations for the work being referred to in secondary sources as ''A World Without Jews''? That there is ''a'' translation published in English called ''A World Without Jews'' is not disputed; the question is, should we prefer that title over the title used for the translations in a number of other sources, notably the ''Marx-Engels Reader''. One way of deciding this would be to see how the article is referred to in other sources.] (]) 23:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
	If I had followed the link to the 1950 English translation of Abram Leon: , I had known from footnote 3 that the essay had been published as ''On the Jewish Question'', in an edition ''Selected Essays by Karl Marx'' (New York, 1926), p.88. Greeting, --] (]) 21:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

	===Lower case 't'===
	<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
	:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

	The result of the proposal was '''no consensus'''. ] (]) 06:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

	The title of the 1926 translation has a minuscule 't' in 'the'. This version is used in most secondary texts which refer to the English title of the essay. Thus this article's title should use a lower case 't', too. --] (]) 21:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

	On ], ] has :
	:"'''Oppose'''. The exact title of this essay/text by ] in the English translation of the ]/s is the former (capital '''"T"'''. And the WP consensus agrees with me."
	My comment: This seems not correct, since the translations by Stenning 1926 and by Lederer 1958 both use the lower case 't'. I can't see a "WP consensus" which would agree with a capital 'T'. Greeting --] (]) 15:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

	Hmmm... the move notice now reads ''It has been proposed below that On The Jewish Question be renamed and moved to On the Jewish Question'', indicating that the only issue still to be resolved on the subject of the article name is whether this ''t'' should be upper or lower case. Is this true? Well done team if so! ] (]) 15:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

	:The "moveoptions" templates had been replaced at . As far as I can see, the request to move the article to ''On the Jewish Question'' is the only current move-request for this article. If this is wrong and you or a another user believes that the article should be moved to another, third title, please change the template back to "moveoptions". Greeting, --] (]) 16:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

	::When I follow that link, it appears that you replaced the "moveoptions" template on 1 May. But if nobody objects to that it's fine by me. A bit unconventional, but if it works, it works. ] (]) 21:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

	Moved from RM:

	:*'''Oppose'''. The exact title of this essay/text by ] in the English translation of the ]/s is the former (capital '''"T"'''. And the WP consensus agrees with me. --] (]) 22:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
	:::Note: The disussion of the proposal should takes place on ], Greeting --] (]) 08:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

	::::Excuse me, but why is it "unconventional" under this circumstances to replace the template with the other? --] (]) 07:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

	:::::Because by so doing, you have implicitly closed the debate on whether ''A World Without Jews'' is a contender as the article title. This could be seen as slightly premature, as the formal proposal was only lodged on 29 April, and five days is the default time period. ] (]) 07:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::If I'm not mistaken, the "move" template was added first at with the request, to move the article to "On the Jewish Question".
	::::::My original proposal for a move to "On the Jewish Question" from April 29 had been changed at by another user to the request for a move to ].
	::::::A bit later, at another user removed the "move" template which I had added, and added a "moveoptions"-template.
	::::::Since the different request stood with my signature, but was not what I had intended, I stroke out this proposal at , and instead again added a proposal to move the article to "On the Jewish Question".
	::::::Shortly after, at , I replaced the "moveoptions" templates by the template which I had originally added.
	::::::Since perhaps it was an unconventional move of mine to remove the "moveoptions"-template which another user had added, I've now readded it again. Greeting, --] (])

	=== '''Vote''': '''Keep''' or '''Move''' ===
	*The issue is is whether to Keep the current title '''On The Jewish Question''' ] "T", or to Move it to '''On the Jewish Question (] "t"). --] (]) 11:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
	*It is submitted that the ](s) of Marx and Engels, published in 1975-2005, use the current title with the Capital "T". --] (]) 11:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
	-----
	*'''Strong Keep''': for all the reasons stated above, and on the rest of this Discussion/Talk page. --] (]) 11:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
	:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->

	=='']''==
	], in answer to your question, almost right above, here I give you the Secondary Source you ask for:
	:Look here:
	::Transcribed by ] on April 29, 2008, from:
	::'']''
	::Vol. 27 - No. 212
	::No. 1, 1960
	::pages 5-7
	<blockquote> "''A WORLD WITHOUT JEWS''
	:''Under the above heading a small book has been issued consisting mainly of articles by Karl Marx on "The Jewish Question."
	''These articles were first published in 1844, partly in the "German-French Yearbook" (1) and partly in "The Holy Family" (2),
	''and form part of the criticism by Marx and Engels of the Young Hegelian viewpoint, with particular reference to the views of Bruno Bauer, a leading exponent of this viewpoint."''</blockquote>
	:::--] (]) 03:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
	:::*The author of this "review" is "J.M." - I don't know yet who that is. --] (]) 03:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
	:Ludvikus, that's a ''review of the book''; it doesn't establish that that title is used independently to refer to the essay. What you need is a work on Marx that refers to the essay by that title. For instance, ''States of Injury'' by Wendy Brown (Princeton, 1995) discusses the essay and refers to it by the title "On the Jewish Question"; is there a similar discussion that uses the other title? I mean, I think the fact that all the other editions of the essay I mentioned on your talk page call it "On the Jewish Question" probably means that that is how we should refer to it; the only reason not to would be if the essay gets refered to by the other title.] (]) 03:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
	==='']'' ===
	That's the definitive title based on the ] published by the reference in that External link; it's also derived from ::the ] which, I recollect, was also published by ]. But as a single book, in the English speaking world we only have '']'', a compilation by ], in 1959. That's extremely import - because that's the source of the view that Marx was an ]. --] (]) 04:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

	:Yes, the "T" is capitalized since it is referring to Bauer's "The Jewish Question," (hence, it is On "The Jewish Question." The book is often somewhat misunderstood to be Marx on "the Jewish question ", rather than primarily his commentary on on Bauer. However, ], it is incorrect to say "we only have" the questionable Runes translation. There was an earlier , for eg, by Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion. In any case, Runes' translation is discredited enough to be not considered anything other than an historical footnote, and was soon superseded by far more reliable translations. And you are mistaken with your assertion that Runes was "the source of the view that Marx was an anti-Semite"--that view had been put forth decades earlier within Jewish theological circles; see, eg Carlebach. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 14:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

	::That's absolutely wonderful work on your part, ]. I am very much excited by your Encyclopedic discover. I'm going to look very carefully at your finding - and with delight. For this, I give the the following rendition of all the extant works of both Marx and Engles, in 50 Volume, compiled & published from 1975-2005 (yes, 30 years to complete!): ''''']''''' - I just developed this article/stub! --] (]) 15:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

	:::Also, note the correct spelling for ] (Engels). ] <sup>'']''</sup> 15:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

	:Typo correction duly noted! I've found no listing of the item with the ] or ]. Will check ] next! --~~
	::'''By Karl Marx, Helen Lederer
	::'''Published 1958
	::'''Hebrew Union College – Jewish Institute of Religion
	::'''Jews
	::'''84 pages'''
	:I've transcribed your finding - a gem - above for all to see! --] (]) 15:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
	:* I couldn't get in - the catalog of the HUC. So, it looks like an obscure(sic-my spelling sometimes is atrocious) work - and the title seems not to be available. Who is/was this ] anyway? Anyway, I think that it's established that ''''']''''' is most notable imprint. That does not mean it was accurate, good, scholarly, etc. It just means it was known to exist - and it caused quite a scandal. It was, and remains, the only Englidh language of our text in the form of a single ], to this day. True, you can get it online in digital form, and it's available in the collected works. But these facts are simple encyclopedic truths we can know just by going to the libraries. None of that is OR. --] (]) 16:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
	:*By the way, who is ]? Do we need him/it? How about a Speedy Deletion on it/him? ----

	::The fact that there are few stand-alone editions of ''On The Jewish Question'' is not so unusual. Marx didnt publish his first (relatively short) book until 1845 (The Holy Family). Prior to that, his published writings were magazine articles (and there were longer works like the German Ideology and the 1844 manuscripts that weren't published until many years later). So it's standard to include ''On The Jewish Question'' in collections of Marx' short "early works", or other collections such as "Marx on Religion," rather than alone.

	::There is no notable Engles, it's a typo; I guess redirected because it's a common typo. And I think you meant "monograph," not "monogram" above. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 18:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
	:::Yeh, thanks again - a bad habit in typos. --] (]) 19:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

	== Undiscussed Reversion - Please seek WP Consensus ==

	Here's the latest unreverted version:
	:*On The Jewish Question is first and foremost a critique by Karl Marx, written in 1843, and first published in 1844 under the German title Zur Judenfrage in the Deutsch-Französische Jahrbücher, of a text by Bruno Bauer published in 1843, and titled, also in German, the Jewish Question.
	:*Please discuss Reversions. --] (]) 22:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

	== On the 1959 USA imprint ==
	I just found this interesting posting on the web:

	:'''"A World Without Jews"''' by Karl Marx
	::"A few days ago, I found a copy of the 1959 translation (published by Philosophical Library) of Karl Marx's "A World Without Jews," which should be a profoundly embarrassing tract to modern leftists. Contained within are little "gems" such as this "The law of the Jew, lacking all solid foundation, is only a religious caricature of morality and of law in general, but it provides the formal rites in which the world of property clothes its transactions."
	::"Posted by Russell Whitaker at July 4, 2004 09:48 AM \| TrackBack "
	That's from the Web. (& you guys say it's obscure/irrelevant, etc.) --] (]) 00:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::A 2004, two-line blog posting might very well be the very definition of obscure/irrelevant. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 00:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::That's your Original research interpretation. I'm showing that this book exists & circulates. But you told us that this book is obscure. I've been trying to tell you that that's the version that people pick up when they want to know what Marx's view on Jews was. They don't read much German. And Marx anthologies do not sell well here. --] (]) 04:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::*If you go to a book dealer in the USA and tell her that you want Marx's book about Jews, she get you ]. It sells for $12.00 currently, by the way. --] (]) 05:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::I think that's a very good point... but does it mean that this is the normal English title for the original work? It may. Hmmm... ] (]) 21:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::Why should the title of a book, which some dealer would try to sell me be of any impact for the encyclopaedia? This is just nonsense in my opinion. --] (]) 16:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::This article is (some claim) about a book. The title of the book is relevant in deciding what to call the article about the book. ] (]) 04:53, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::::Since its first version from , this article is claiming to be about "an essay by Karl Marx", not about a particular publicated edition in the form of a book. Besides, the book ''A World Without Jews'' did not only contain a translation of this essay, but of some other texts by Marx, too. I don't see any reason why now the topic of this wikipedia-article should be changed, nor do I see so far any Wikipedian (or do you?) who would demand such a change. --] (]) 13:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
	:I agree about this: the "official" title of the this text (as given by the ](s) of/on ] is '''''On The Jewish Question]]''''. However, the work was scandalized by ] who published in ] under the "anti-Marx" title ''''']'''''. If you want a Book version of the item, that's the title by which you have to ask for it. No one has seen fit to publish another version (in book form) of it. So you should note that it's a ] title. But you cannot make believe it does not exist, because it does. --] (]) 14:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
	-----
	He guys, check this source (but proceed with caution: it's from a ] source, ''],'' '''Karl Marx: Anti-Semite''' by ]): :
	:'''''"Bibliographical Note"'''''
	::" The primary source for the racist theories of ] is his ''''']''''' (New York: ], ]), which was edited end translated by ]. Since Runes made reference to the official Soviet edition of the same work we may safely assume that this undated edition published by the ] in Moscow was done before 1959. Of the other works in which Marx made passing references to Jews, editions abound. These works include: ], ], ], and ]. Many of the letters were published in ] (ed.), ] (]). The Foreign Languages Publishing House editions of Marx's many works tend to be accurate and inexpensive."

	::"One of the first discussions in English of Marx's anti-Semitism was ], "Karl Marx: Father of Modern Anti-Semitism," Plain Talk (September ]). The fundamental secondary source for Marx's racism and anti-Semitism is ], ] (New Rochelle, N.Y.: ], ])."
	-----
	*Looks like I forgot to sign the Cut & Paste of the above. --] (]) 04:53, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

	== Summary ==

	To clarify the issues on this clutter page I give the following summary:
	:* Eary before the ] (1879) the undisputed scholarship is the expression, "]" emerged. --] (]) 18:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:* In 1843 ] had written a ] titled, "].''
	:* In 1844 ] had published a ] titled "]". ] ] scholars are the ] - and generally recognized as such - Marx's and ]'s writings which have been collected and published as no less than 50 volumes ]. This is the ] of Marx's works. ("standard edition" is the expression used by scholars to identify the authoritative imprint of a writing or publication, particularly when several exist). Accordingly, in order to be precise as to the nature of this particular work, the title chosen and used by the publishers in the one with a capital "T." --] (]) 18:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:* In 1959 this text of ours here being written about had been translated into English an published under the title ] by ]. --] (]) 18:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:* Except for an obscure 1958 rare imprint, whose exact title is unknown, this is the only "]" that exists to this day - and it is discredited by all Marxist scholars. And even among non-Marxist scholars, this text is generally recognized as in] as a depiction of what Marx actualyy wrote or thought about the Jews. --] (]) 18:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:*Nevertheless, it is this very edition which is widely referred to in the arguements that Marx was a ].--] (]) 18:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:**My view, as a WP Encyclopidist(sic), is (1) that we capitalize the "T" in the title because that's how its done in the ](s) of Marx's writings, and (2) that we include ] in the opening paragraph stating that it is inaccurate and unfair to Marx (that's what all scholars, left and right hold), but mention because it is so pervasive - in a way, like the ]. --] (]) 18:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::I don't know how reliable this of the table of contents of Volume III of the Marx & Engels Collected Works is, however it reads "On the Jewish Question" with a lower case 't', too. Greeting, --] (]) 18:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:*That's obviously a typographical error. Why don't you look at the actual article instead and see that you're mis-reading & mistaken : --] (]) 19:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:*Also, why not research your reference - especially since it proves the contrary, that the "T" is to be capitalized: --] (]) 20:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:*OK. I just did most of it for you. Here is who they are: --] (]) 20:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:*More specifically, and completely, it's the ] --] (]) 20:06, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	::*"Who we are" . --] (]) 20:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::*]: And they have the usage: '''''"On The Jewish Question"'''''.'''''' --] (]) 20:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::(after edit conflict)The Link you gave goes to the translation presented by the MIA, but this is not (necessarily) the translation of the ''M&E CW'' edition. This is also stated at the :
	:::::"The majority of works published by the MIA are not the same translation used by Progress Publishers".
	::::The MIA does not say who has made their translation of ''Zur Judenfrage'' as far as I know, but the web-page reads "Proofed and Corrected: by Andy Blunden, February 2005." Thus Mr. Blunden of the MIA is the person who is responsible for this particular version and typesetting in the first place. It seems to me that the MIA-page with the translation of ''Zur Judenfrage'' (for which the frist version known by the internet archive appeared in the year 2002 ) could be the original source for the unusual spelling with a majuscule 'T'. I don't see any evidence why the lower case 't' in the table of contents of volume 3 in the MIA-web-page would be a typographical error. Greetings --] (]) 20:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:*But it's your own source. You picked it. And it shows that you are mistaken regarding the ] 'T'. --] (]) 20:59, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:*Thanks for that wonderful word ] by which I'm enriched & edified by you. --] (]) 21:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:*For me the Marxist meaning & usage is obvious: "On 'The Jewish Question'." Do you really fail to appreciate that? I doubt it. A being whose capable of such fine a vocabulary as "majuscule" must have the capacity to comprehent the point now here at issue! --] (]) 21:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	::*PS: Can/do you See the single-quotes within the double-quotes in the above? --] (]) 21:07, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::* And the ''profound'' meaning of all that is simply that Marx was not writing about the '''Jewish question''', but rather about Bruno Bauer's '''"essay"''' (I thought he wrote a "newspaper" or "journal" "article") about the Jewish question. In ]/Marxist terms, he was being ]. --] (]) 21:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	I did not "pick" the MIA page as a source. Anyway, it is irrelevant which sources I have picked, since this article is about the essay by Marx, and has to adjust to the spelling used by the most relevant scholary sources. Also it is irrelevant whether me or some other Wikipedian understands or appreciates the meaning of an upper case 'T', since we are obliged to follow the ] policy. Greeting, --] (]) 07:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

	== The Marxism Template ==

	{{Marxism}}

	So where does the work belong on the <nowiki>{{Marxism}}</nowiki> Template? --] (]) 02:07, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

	:''On the Jewish Question'' was written before those works Marx and Engels which are considered to be central for Marxism. I don't think there would be an agreement to add ''OtJQ'' to the ]. Greeting, --] (]) 16:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

	::That position of yours is contradicted by the opening sentence of this Article's Page:
	'''On ''The Jewish Question''''' is a work by ],
	written in ], and first published in ]
	under the ] title '''''Zur Judenfrage'''''
	in the ''].''
	It is one of Marx's earliest attempts at formulating what would later be called
	the ].
	:* For emphasis, I repeat your own wtiting: ''"It is one of Marx's earliest attempts
	:''at formulating what would later be called the ]."
	:*What's misleading is your Reversion just now. Is this, or is this not a Marxist work? And if not, you must remove
	:the second sentence in the opening paragraph. --] (]) 17:13, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

	== Bruno Bauer's 115 page book ==

	Here it is: : it is a '''book''' (]):
	*Die Judenfrage
	*LC Control No.: 52055661
	*Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
	*Personal Name: Bauer, Bruno, 1809-1882. » More like this
	*Main Title: Die Judenfrage.
	*Published/Created: Braunschweig, F. Otto, 1843.
	*Description: 115 p. 21 cm.
	*Subjects: Jewish question.
	*LC Classification: DS141 .B32
	**It is "proven" above that's its a 115 page book!!! --] (]) 02:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

	== ]'s "On the Jewish Quesion (1958) ==
	Here's the online library card catalog listing
	of ] – ]
	*Record 1 of 1
	:You searched Class 01 - Title: On the Jewish Question
	:AUTHOR Marx, Karl, 1818-1883.
	:TITLE On the Jewish question / Karl Marx ; translated by Helen Lederer.
	:PUBLICATION Cincinnati, OH : Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion, 1958.
	:DESCRIPTION 42 leaves ; 28 cm.
	:SERIES Readings in modern Jewish history
	:NOTE Cover ti.
	:NOTE On rectos only.
	:SUBJECT Jews - - Legal status, laws, etc.
	:SUBJECT Judaism.
	:SUBJECT Jews - - Politics and government.
	:SUBJECT Jews - - Germany - - History - - 1800-1933.
	:SUBJECT Germany - - Ethnic relations.
	:ADDTL AUTHOR Lederer, Helen.
	::--] (]) 03:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
	:*This (above) English language version (translation), ], ], appears to be rare and obscure. As I've pointed out above, neither the ] owns it, nor does ] show it's existence anywhere in the Western world. I've even checked with the ]; result: ''nada''. --] (]) 10:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

	== Please lets not have an Edit War ==

	Let's discuss here the difference regarding the 1959 text. It has been shown above that ] is not at all an ] worrk, contrary to the ] view of one WP editor.--] (]) 18:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
	* The fact is that this imprint caused a ] at the time! --] (]) 18:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

	:It's you who are edit warring, trying to make an obscure edition prominent (whats scandal??) to fit you DISAMB activities. Please stop immediately or I: will take it to the ADMIN board. Thanks. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 18:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

	::I'm not Reverting anything - so there's no Edit War. As I told you, I want to go by consenus! You think it's obscure - I don't. What's your problem? How many editors agree with you right now - tell me that, will yoy? --] (]) 19:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

	== Avoiding an Edit War ==

	Since the current one, single, editor persists in reverting all my work, and wishing to avoid an edit War, I'll simply archive here what I think is a better opening than what we have at the moment, and let others do with it as they see fit (--] (]) 20:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)):

	:*'''On ''The Jewish Question''''' is a work by ], written in ], and first published in ] under the ] title '''''Zur Judenfrage''''' in the '']'', reviewing, or in response to, ]'s 1843 book, '']''.

	:*It had subsequntly been published, by ], in the ], in ], under the ] title, ''''']''''', by which title it is known in some cirles there, having caused a ] thereby.

	:*Nevertheless, it is considered by Marxist scholars to be one of Marx's earliest attempts at formulating what would later be called the ], and is universally considered by all ]s as not an ] text.
	::--] (]) 20:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

	==Prominence of "A World Without Jews"==

	According to Andrew Valls's "Race and Racism in Modern Philosophy" (p. 242): "It is particularly in the early writings that commentators find traces of an anti-Semitism that some of them diagnose as Jewish self-hatred. The primary text is "On the Jewish Question," which first appeared in English under the title "World without Jews."

	Julius Carlebach in "Karl Marx and the Radical Critique of Judaism" (p.447) when talking about "A World without Jews" says: "One of the best known but least valuable editions of Marx's essays, which are represented as purely anti-semitic. The presentation is less than scholarly, part of Marx's passages from the ''Holy Family'' being added to the essays but not identified, and the editor's comment are highly polemical. As a translation, it is, however, accurate."

	So according to these two sources "World Without Jews" is first and one of the best known translations of this work.

	] ] 16:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

	:Mr Valls is only the editor of this book. The author of the chapter Richard T. Peterson is obviously wrong when he claims that it first appeared in English under this title. Earlier English editions have been mentioned sufficiently enough in the wikipedia-article and on this very talk-page.

	:Mr Carlebach obviously does not speak about "best known" in scholary circles, which are the circles first of all relevant for wikipedia.
	:--] (]) 16:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

	::No, ] ], thats not true at all. Refer to the discussion above--that "translation" was discredited from the moment of it's publication, and within a few years was superseded by reliable translations. That version is all but forgotten, and merits the brief mention it currently has the the text as an historical footnote, and that's it. It also wasnt the first English translation--again, see discussion above. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 17:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
	::: To be fair to ] position, '''AWWJ''' was published in 1959, but there was a 1958 edition by that <s>"Helen Lerer"] (can't remember her LN)</s> '''Helen Lederer''' pub. in 1958 under the title, '''OTJQ'''. I think the issue previous was that 1959 was "obscure." But Schw. now claims it's unscholarly. Whether or not it is is irrelevant if we show that AWWJ caused a scandal. And that's quite easy to do, I think (but I don't have the time at the moment). --] (]) 18:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
	::: And whether or not Marx was or was not Antisemitic is also irrelevant in this discussion - which is much weight are we to give that AWWJ edition. I think it's definitely not obscure. --] (]) 18:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::It caused no "scandal" ]--it was obscure then and it is obscure now. You are just making things up. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 18:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Oh yeh? Here's my proof to the contrary. In 1942 ] edited his ''Dictionary of Philosophy'' which was imprinted for at least through 1971 (I'm holding a 1971 imprint in my hands as we speak). He was the book's editor, and his "subordinates" at the time were then some of the greatest academic philosophers of Europe (& in the USA because of Hirler)! Here are their names - his colleagues - as listed on the first page ("contributors") (--] (]) 18:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)):
	;Dictionary of Philosophy (Currently available Online) ''''''
	Runes is known for his '''''Dictionary of Philosophy''''' (1942) which he edited. The following distinguished authorities participated in the project ('''''Initials/Names'''''):
	A.C. ---- ]
	A.C.B. ---- A. Cornelius Benjamin
	A.C.E. ---- A. C. Ewing
	A.C.P. ---- A. C. Pegis
	A.G.A.B. ---- Albert G. A. Balz
	A.J.B. ---- Archie J. Bahm
	B.A.G.F. ---- B. A. G. Fuller
	C.A.B. ---- Charles A. Baylis
	C.A.H. ---- Charles A. Hart
	C.G.H. ---- ]
	C.J.D. ---- C. J. Ducasse
	C.K.D. ---- C. K. Davenport
	D.C. ---- Dorion Cairns
	E.A.M. ---- Ernest A. Moody
	E.C. ---- Emmanuel Chapman
	E.F. ---- Erich Frank
	E.H. ---- Eugene Holmes
	E.S.B. ---- Edgar Sheffield Brightman
	F.L.W. ---- Frederick L. Will
	F.M.G. ---- Felix M. Gatz
	F.K. ---- Fritz Kunz
	F.S.C.N. ---- F. S. C. Northrop
	G.B. ---- ]
	G.R.M. ---- Glenn R. Morrow
	G.W.C. ---- G. Watts Cunningham
	H.G. ---- Hunter Guthrie
	H.Go. ---- Heinrich Gomperz
	H.H. ---- Herman Hausheer
	H.L.G. ---- H. L. Gordon
	I.J. ---- Iredell Jenkins
	J.E.B. ---- John Edward Bentley
	J.J.R. ---- J. J. Rolbiecki
	J.K.F. ---- James K. Feibleman
	J.M. ---- Joseph Maier
	J.A.F. ---- Jose A. Franquiz
	J.M.S. ---- J. MacPherson Somerville
	J.R.W. ---- Julius R. Weinberg
	K.F.L. ---- Kurt F. Leidecker
	K.G. ---- Katharine Gilbert
	L.E.D. ---- Lester E. Denonn
	L.M.H. ---- Lewis M. Hammond
	L.V. ---- Lionello Venturi
	L.W. ---- Ledger Wood
	M.B. ---- ]
	M.T.K. ---- Morris T. Keeton
	M.B.M. ---- Marcus B. Mallett
	M.F. ---- Max Fishler
	M.W. ---- Meyer Waxmann
	O.F.K. ---- Otto F. Kraushaar
	P.A.S. ---- ]
	P.O.K. ---- Paul O. Kristeller
	P.P.W.. ---- ]
	P.W. ---- ]
	R.A. ---- Rudolf Allers
	R.B.W. ---- Ralph B. Winn
	R.C. ---- Rudolf Carnap
	R.M.J. ---- Rufus M. Jones
	R.T.F. ---- Ralph Tyler Flewelling
	S.v.F. ---- Sigmar von Fersen
	S.S.S. ---- S. S. Stevens
	T.G. ---- Thomas Greenwood
	T.M. ---- Thomas Munro
	V.F. ---- Vergilius Ferm
	V.J.B. ---- Vernon J. Bourke
	V.J.M. ---- V. J. McGill
	W.E. ---- Walter Eckstein
	W.F. ---- William Frankena
	W.L. ---- Wilbur Long
	W.M.M. ---- William Marias Malisoff
	W.N.P ---- W. Norman Ptttenger
	W.S.W. ---- William S. Weedon
	W.T.C. ---- W. T. Chan
	:::--] (]) 18:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::]: The book, '''''A World Without Jews''''', was not then, and is not obscure. --] (]) 18:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

	::::How does citing one of Runes' OTHER books prove that "A World Without Jews" is not obscure and that is caused a "scandal"??? Answer--it doesn't. You haven't a clue what you are talking about, you go from article to article making things up, adding confusing redirects and edits about things you know nothing about, and clog up talk pages with NONSENSE. Why don't you just stop before you get banned altogether? Hint--removing other editors will not help. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 18:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Stop threatening me with being banned. That's extremely provocative. Don't do that again, please. Be polite, and rational. Instead of threatening me, and having my Discussion page polluted with such extremely provocative threats, why don't you now tell us what evidence you have to support your claim that ''A World Without Jews'' is an obscure work? Why should I/we believe you? Because you threaten me with being Banned? If that happens - so much the worse for Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 18:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::I've put nothing on your discussion page--other editors have, and they are the ones who will ban you. The burden is on you to demonstrate a claim that something is noteworthy with evidence. So either provide evidence or stop wasting space here. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 18:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
	:''']''': (1) Your allegation that other editors are threatening to ban me is clearly designed to prevent me from arguing against your totally unsupported claim that this edition of "]" work is obscure. It is clear that you wish that I simply go away so you could persist in preaching to us that is ''obscure''. Your evidence for that claim has so far been zero (0). (2) On the other hand, I have demonstrated by the above that in 1942 Runes had worked with the greatest living philosophers in the Western World. He knew them. And they knew him. (3) Then, in 1958 Runes published "]" (13 years after ] and during the ]. And you mean to tell me that this Even caused no scandal? Granted, it's not the best evidence. But is far better than yours, which consists merely of reminding me that I might be banned. And since you brought it up - not I - I'll tell you why that is. On one other Misplaced Pages page there is one editor who's also engaging in such an ]. --] (]) 19:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

	::In other words, you have no evidence. Are you really claiming that a 1958 book is not obscure because the editor edited another book in 1942?? And your evidence for there being a "scandal" is that I have presnted no evidence that there wasn't a scandal. Do you realize how foolish you sound? Why don't you just stop. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 19:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

	:::You got it backwards. The burden is on your shoulders to show that the AWWJ text is "obscure." I've shown you that in 1942 Runes worked, as a colleague with the world's greatest living philosopher. He had, in other words, the greatest possible connection among men of letters. Then, in 1958, he published a book involving Marx and Jews, and you, out of the blue, tell me it is an obscure work. I keep telling you that it's the only one volume book or booklet on the subject in the English language. There exist(s) the 1975-2005 collected works - in 50 volume and in English - and we have the text on the Internet.
	:::But all I get from you is your statement: it's obscure. That's your opinion. But anyone doing just a little research will know immediately that it was this text that was the popular propaganda source of material used by anti-Marxists in their battle to show that Marx was an anti-Semite. --] (]) 21:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::Here. Take your pick. I give you Google with its 3,730 hits for "World Without Jews" (--] (]) 22:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)):

	:::And the charge of obscurity does nothing for your argument. The ] was definitely and obscure work at the time of its birth. You know of course its effect in the world? Is this book, through its title, responsible for the pejorative associated with Marx - "A World Without Jews"? Why hide this "title, buried down the page? We do not need to protect Marx against the smear of the title. Marx can rake care of himself now, thank you. --] (]) 22:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

	::::Misplaced Pages goes by ]. Find a ] that says that this obscure book is important for an article about this particular work by Marx. Stop wasting space with pointless arguments with no sources. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 01:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

	:::::No! It's your burden (task) to show the work AWWJ is "obscure." How in heaven's name did you come to that conclusion? We are not allowed to do Original research as you are doing with finding of yours. --] (]) 01:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

	== "a review of the writings of Dr. Bruno Bauer" ==

	*'']''
	:(New York: ], 1959)
	::] catalog card discription:
	::Marx, Karl, 1818-1883.
	::Uniform Title: '']''. English
	::Main Title: ''A world without Jews''. Translated from the original German, with an introd. by '''Dagobert D. Runes'''.
	::Published/Created: New York, Philosophical Library
	::Description: xii, 51 p. 20 cm.
	::Notes: "The first unexpurgated English language publication of papers ... originally published
	::
	::as a ''']''' of the writings of Dr. Bruno Bauer ... on ’the Jewish question.’"
	::Bibliography: p. xii.
	::Subjects:
	:::], 1809-1882.
	:::Jews--History--1789-1945.
	*Thus, according to Runes, the work is "a ]" of ]'s "The Jewish Question." --] (]) 03:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

	:::Runes is not our authority on this article. I'm going to ask you one last time to stop making pointless, needless edits that detract from this and other articles that you CLEARLY have no understanding or comprehension of. The next step will be to bring your disruptive behavior to the admin board. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 04:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Why isn't he your "authority"? How do you decide? Do you know, for example that Runes was a colleague of Albert Einstein? Who gave you the right to decide who is, or who is not the authority? Marx wrote about a writing of Bruno Bauer. And so it was called either by Runes or by the Library of Congress, a review. What's wrong with that word? Why do you object to it? And stop threatening me with being taken to a review board. It's inflammatory, and makes it very difficult not to be provoke by you. Let's follow Misplaced Pages policy. --] (]) 04:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
	::I'm not discussing article content with you anymore, it's pointless. You have no idea what you are talking about. Stop disrupting and vandalizing Misplaced Pages. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 04:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

	== On what this work/review of Marx is all about ==
	From the ''Selected Essay'' (1926) tr. by H. J. Stenning :
	"In 1843 Marx was twenty-five years old.
	He had just married, apparently on the strength of the modest salary he was to receive for editing,
	jointly with ], a periodical called the ] (Franco-German Annuals),
	the purpose of which was to promote the union of ] with ] ].
	Only one double-number of this journal appeared in 1844.
	It contained Marx's criticism of the ] ]
	and his exposition of the social significance of the ],
	in the form of a ] of two works by ].
	:That's an exact quote from the "Preface" of the compilation and translation by ]'s ''Selected Essays'' by Karl Marx (1926) --] (]) 09:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

	==Requested move (May 2008)==
	] → ] — The "t" in "the" should be lowercase. (Setting up on behalf of ].) —] (]) 23:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

	===Survey===
	:''Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with'' <code><nowiki>'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since ], please explain your reasons, taking into account ].''

	*'''Oppose''' - The ], ] ] of the works of Marx/Engels has "T" . ] (]) 00:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

	*'''Support''' - This title almost unanimously appears with a lower case "t" in all its versions and in all references to it. ], it seems, is wrong in claiming the link he provided is the "authoritative" version; in fac, it is merely a translation by an internet archive of Marx' work. If he would look more closely, he would find the , and see that the ''actual'' authoritative edition uses a lower case "t". ] <sup>'']''</sup> 01:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

	*'''Oppose''' - The word 'the' should be capitalized, as it is a part of the title ''The Jewish Question''. It does not matter that the word 'the' is no longer the first word of the title, because the name ''On The Jewish Question'' refers to ''The Jewish Question''. Notice that in the article titled ], the 'the' in 'The Beatles' is capitalized. ] ] ] 02:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

	*'''Oppose''' Marx was writing "on ''The Jewish Question'' " (which would argue in favor of the capital T) and not "on the Jewish question" (which would support the lower-case t). I think the current title is the correct one. — ] (] '''·''' ]) 03:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

	===Discussion===
	:''Any additional comments:''
	*There is nothing to discuss. Just look at the edition which all scholars go to. But do not look at the German (1844) first edition since this is the English language Misplaced Pages and Marx has been translated into English. Furthermore an authoritative English language edition exists - which also is available online - and it uses a capital "T". ] (]) 00:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

	:Unfortunately, ] you are wrong. The version on the marxists.org site is NOT an online version of the MECW. It is their own translations. But I do agree with you on one point--there is nothing to discuss. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 01:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

	::But now there is something to discuss, namely, our respective analyses:
	# My source is: ''' http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/
	# Your source is: ''' http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume03/preface.htm
	# So we're using the ''same'' source. The difference is that I'm looking at the ] page and your look at the ].
	# And the title page clearly has "T."
	# You make reference to another work, but only ''say'' what it has, whereas I'm ''showing'' what it has.
	# And no one else has said anything.
	# Q.E.D.: Keep.
	::Now there's again nothing to say since I've conclusively proven my point. --] (]) 02:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

	:::No, stop being so arrogant and try and pay attention. The preface on that site is from the Vol 3 of the Collected Works. The translation of "On the Jewish Question" on that site is NOT from the Collected Works, it is their own translation (by a guy named Andy Blumden, who is NOT the translator for the Collected Works. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 02:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

			B. The main body section “2. history of publication” should be below “3. Interpretations” and “4. Reference to Müntzer”, because 3&4 are discussions of content, like 1., ] (]) 20:27, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
	:::Don't play games, just make your point. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 01:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
			:I disagree with both of those proposals. The title is crystal clear: the article is about Marx' book. The order is appropriate, since background such as publication history are almost also dealt with first before plunging into content, but I don't feel strongly about that. ] (]) 22:45, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
			::], should that Muntzer section still be there? How does his view that Marx liked animals have anything to do with whether Marx liked Jews? I'm confused. Any thoughts on this, ]? It has been tagged for a loooong time.--] (]) 06:52, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
			::To clarify, having an entire subsection just about that is WP:UNDUE. Also, it is tagged as poorly sourced. Finally, it is confusing! It seems to be saying that the cited passage written by Marx (who references Muntzer) ACTUALLY means that Marx liked animals. Okay... but Marx also still is saying bad things about Jews and the bible, yes? Do we need it in the article, and in its own section no less? I think not.--] (]) 07:01, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
			::I was bold, and remedied the tagged section about Munzer.--] (]) 18:14, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

			== Should this article be in the Antisemitism sidebar ==
	::::I'm sorry you feel I'm playing games. That was not my intent. Only now I understand what you're saying. I do not believe it proves your point, however, since it only shows (if what you say is the case) is that our same source is inconsistent. And I think we should give the Title page the greater weight. Nevertheless, I am curious about what you are now saying and will get back to you one the matter after I'ven it some study. --] (]) 02:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

			If you have an opinion, please share at ]. ] (]) 20:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
	::::I just found this in the same online source which I think further supports my poisition (] (]) 02:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)):
			:Yes! It should. Great idea, thank you.--] (]) 12:27, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
	Further reading:
			::Despite Marx reflecting a widely held belief of his time, it is still anti-Semitic, in my opinion. The last two sentences of the essay called the "essential essence of Judaism" to be "huckstering" and that "" It is not just critical of Judaism, it looks to be more anti-Judaism than anything.--] (]) 22:21, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
	The Webster On-line dictionary has a complete list of translations of “citizen”
			:::He's quoting Bauer. Do you have any reading comprehension? Marx was critiquing the anti-semitic "jewish question" in his response titled "ON the 'jewish question'" and was QUOTING the anti-semitic tropes in order to respond to them. Karl Marx was Jewish. ] (]) 10:43, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
	but it necessary to know of the specific shades of meaning and connotations.
			::::Uh, ] DOES have reading comprehension! Don't be nasty. It clearly is of ZERO relevance that Karl Marx was born to Jewish parents and was (I presume) raised as a Jew. He was anti-Semitic, i.e. did not like Jews at all. He wrote about it in lots of other places and times, so I am not making a statement of opinion about this particular tract of his. By the way, the Antisemitism sidebar is on the article. As I stated in June 2022, I believe that it should remain there.--] (]) 06:46, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
	See '''''On The Jewish Question''''', Marx 1844 for Marx’s discussion of the concepts.
			:::::it is patently absurd that so many people fail at basic reading comprehension. Marx's response included references to Bauer's anti-semitic premise in order to critique it. Marx wrote "ON the Jewish Question" - a RESPONSE/CRITIQUE of something he considered to be wrong and idealist (not based in dialectical materialism, the framework of his own theories). leave it to WikiCIApedia to get something so basic so completely wrong. ] (]) 20:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

			==Removed Sacks quote==
	:::::Uh, it's the same site referencing the same version you cited above. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 02:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
			Sacks later referred to Marxism as part of the mutating virus of antisemitism. ] (])
			:Thank you, ]. I removed the associated citation along with two others, see below. The pro-antisemite refs were glommed together with the anti-antisemite refs, all at the end of one sentence at the very end of the lead. <s>in the beginning of the second sub-heading of the article</s> Most of those citations are discussed later in the article, before the strange Muntzer quote about Marx liking animals (relevance here? lol) but the three below are not. I might include them as External Links. If you have thoughts about this, please share. Without accessing the books, it is impossible to tell which of the first two are of each view.--] (]) 06:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
			:I clarified ]. Sorry about my lack of umlauts.--] (]) 07:03, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

	::::::I don't know what you just said & I'll continue with my train of thought for now. I found the paragraph you're talking about (I think) and here it is (] (]) 02:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)):
	In his article '''''“]”''''', Marx attacked Bruno Bauer’s idealistic,
	narrowly theological presentation of the problem of Jewish emancipation.
	As opposed to his former fellow thinkers, the Young Hegelians,
	Marx saw criticism of religion, as well as of politics,
	not as the final aim but as a tool to be used in the revolutionary struggle,
	and he wanted to go further and deeper in the critical reconsideration of all existing relationships.
	Marx’s polemic with Bauer provided him with the occasion
	for a broader materialist examination of the problem
	of mankind’s emancipation not only from national,
	religious and political, but also from economic and social oppression.
	In this work Marx developed the concept of the limited nature
	of the bourgeois revolution, which he called “political emancipation”.
	He put forward the idea of the necessity for a deeper-going revolution
	aiming at the real elimination of all social antagonisms.
	This kind of revolution he called “human emancipation”.

			*Muravchik, Joshua (2003). Heaven on Earth: The Rise and Fall of Socialism. San Francisco: Encounter Books. p. 164. {{ISBN\|1-893554-45-7}}.
	:::::Now look at what this Preface says at the very bottom
			*Marvin Perry, Frederick M. Schweitzer. ''Antisemitism: Myth and Hate from Antiquity to the Present''. Palgrave Macmillan. (2005). {{ISBN\|1-4039-6893-4}} pp. 154–157
	:*''The volume was compiled and the preface and notes written by ] and edited by ] (] of the ] ]). Indexes of names and of books and periodicals mentioned or quoted were prepared by ], and the subject index by ] (Institute of Marxism-Leninism of the CC CPSU).
			*{{cite book\|last= Sacks\|first= Jonathan\|author-link=Jonathan Sacks\|title= The Politics of Hope\|year= 1997\|publisher=Jonathan Cape\|location= London\|isbn=978-0-224-04329-8\|pages= 98–108}}
	:
	:
	:*''The translations were made by ], ], ], ], ] and ], and edited by ] (]),], ], ], ], the late ] (]) and ] (]). The supplement was translated by ] in consultation with ] and ].
	:
	:
	:*''The volume was prepared for the press by the editors ], ] and ], and the assistant-editor ], for ], and ], scientific editor, for the Institute of Marxism-Leninism of the CC CPSU.
	:::--] (]) 02:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
	**In summary, we have an extremely authoratative edition in which you appear to have discovered a ] error. --] (]) 03:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

			== "Although others do not" ==
	::::What are you talking about? ] <sup>'']''</sup> 03:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::I'm saying (1) you found a typographical error which you claim supports your position, (2) that you and I are using the same authoritative edition, and (3) the title in the work collected in this book(s) has '''''On The Jewish Question''''' which conclusively supports my position. --] (]) 03:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

			Is it not worth mentioning that both of the sources cited in support of the view that Marx's essay was not antisemitic are themselves self-avowed Marxists? They're hardly the most neutral sources for such a defense.
	::::::What on earth are you talking about?? 1) How do you know it's a typographical error? Brcause it contradicts your viewpont? Thats the height of arrogance. 2) so? 3) Noooo, the title '''''On The Jewish Question''''' is in the marxist.org website translation, '''not''' the Collected Works version. You are making no sense at all. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 04:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

			To rephrase, I hardly think two avowed Marxist scholars defending Marx against the charge of antisemitism constitutes a neutral defense of the claim made by non-Marxists.
	:But (1) I showed you the title of the work and you went to the preface. So it was you who 1st implied that the title is wrong. So the question is what gives you that right. And (2) though you don't like this source you didn't find a better one. Finally, why are you so critical of me? It only you and me arguing now anyway. ] (]) 04:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

			If there were non-Marixst scholars who also defend that the essay is not antisemitic, would these not be actually neutral sources? ] (]) 18:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
	::The only Cap T version you found is one from a website. You falsely claimed it was the "authoritative English language edition." I showed you you were wrong, that it wasnt the "authoritative" version, and that in fact, the preface from the actual MECW version uses lower case "t." I have no idea what you are taking about, and why you waste so much time and space making vacuous arguments. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 04:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

			:I don't think it's at all fair to assume that Marxist scholars are any less neutral than non-Marxist scholars on the issue, and in fact you could make the same argument about bias the other way round - it is perhaps worth noting that the source used to argue in favour of Marx's antisemitism on that very line is an article which also describes socialism as "the anti-Semitism of intellectuals" in a magazine often described as "neoconservative".
	(outdent) Might I suggest that ] may not be the best site/cite for this. Their usage seems inconsistent. The and from the 3rd volume of the ''Collected Works'' show the lower-case "t". Other uses, such as the Marxists' and their , show the upper-case "T".
			:] (]) 00:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

			== The Undefined Behaviour Question ==
	Does anybody have access to the ''Collected Works'' itself, and not the Marxists.org online edition? My interpretation of their is that they're in the process of transcribing the ''Collected Works'', but in the meantime they're linking to their own versions of those texts that they have. Having said that, I should point out that "On ''The Jewish Question''" is in volume 3, and Marxists.org says that they have transcribed most of the first 10 volumes.

			Notice: this page is being discussed on the Internet in the context of an incident in the C++ programming language standards committee, as detailed here:
	So, if anybody wants to rely on the ''Collected Works'' as an "official" arbiter, I would recommend finding a copy on paper or in some other form than the one posted at Marxists.org. — ] (] '''·''' ]) 05:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

			http://tomazos.com/ub_question_incident.pdf
	:Just to clarify my comments: The consistent use of the lower-case "t" in both the TOC and the preface from the ''Collected Works'' suggests that it '''isn't''' a typo. But, as I wrote, an examination of the paper edition might help put an end to this debate (at least among those for whom the ''Collected Works'' is authoritative). — ] (] '''·''' ]) 05:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

			This is just a heads up to let everyone know that there may be increased vandalism and disruption to this page because of this.
	== Archiving old messages ==

			Related: ], ], https://isocpp.org/std/the-committee --] (]) 14:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
	I've archived all the messages that haven't had a response since 2007. The link is at the top of the page. — ] (] '''·''' ]) 04:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

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Changes going forward

A. I think it would be helpful to rename the existing article sections to make them more in line with better articles on Marx works, this will not be a “bold edit” as I will just be changing section names, not their content. Manboobies (talk) 20:21, 16 January 2019 (UTC) I have renamed one for now, to be in line with the communist manifesto article.--Manboobies (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

B. The main body section “2. history of publication” should be below “3. Interpretations” and “4. Reference to Müntzer”, because 3&4 are discussions of content, like 1., Manboobies (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I disagree with both of those proposals. The title is crystal clear: the article is about Marx' book. The order is appropriate, since background such as publication history are almost also dealt with first before plunging into content, but I don't feel strongly about that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:45, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, should that Muntzer section still be there? How does his view that Marx liked animals have anything to do with whether Marx liked Jews? I'm confused. Any thoughts on this, Manboobies? It has been tagged for a loooong time.--FeralOink (talk) 06:52, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, having an entire subsection just about that is WP:UNDUE. Also, it is tagged as poorly sourced. Finally, it is confusing! It seems to be saying that the cited passage written by Marx (who references Muntzer) ACTUALLY means that Marx liked animals. Okay... but Marx also still is saying bad things about Jews and the bible, yes? Do we need it in the article, and in its own section no less? I think not.--FeralOink (talk) 07:01, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I was bold, and remedied the tagged section about Munzer.--FeralOink (talk) 18:14, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Should this article be in the Antisemitism sidebar

If you have an opinion, please share at Template_talk:Antisemitism_sidebar#On_the_Jewish_Question-BRD. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes! It should. Great idea, thank you.--FeralOink (talk) 12:27, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Despite Marx reflecting a widely held belief of his time, it is still anti-Semitic, in my opinion. The last two sentences of the essay called the "essential essence of Judaism" to be "huckstering" and that "The social emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Judaism." It is not just critical of Judaism, it looks to be more anti-Judaism than anything.--Der under Smurf (talk) 22:21, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

He's quoting Bauer. Do you have any reading comprehension? Marx was critiquing the anti-semitic "jewish question" in his response titled "ON the 'jewish question'" and was QUOTING the anti-semitic tropes in order to respond to them. Karl Marx was Jewish. 69.113.236.26 (talk) 10:43, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Uh, Der under Smurf *DOES* have reading comprehension! Don't be nasty. It clearly is of ZERO relevance that Karl Marx was born to Jewish parents and was (I presume) raised as a Jew. He was anti-Semitic, i.e. did not like Jews at all. He wrote about it in lots of other places and times, so I am not making a statement of opinion about this particular tract of his. By the way, the Antisemitism sidebar is on the article. As I stated in June 2022, I believe that it should remain there.--FeralOink (talk) 06:46, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

it is patently absurd that so many people fail at basic reading comprehension. Marx's response included references to Bauer's anti-semitic premise in order to critique it. Marx wrote "ON the Jewish Question" - a RESPONSE/CRITIQUE of something he considered to be wrong and idealist (not based in dialectical materialism, the framework of his own theories). leave it to WikiCIApedia to get something so basic so completely wrong. 69.113.236.26 (talk) 20:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Removed Sacks quote

Sacks later referred to Marxism as part of the mutating virus of antisemitism. Titanium Dragon (talk)

Thank you, Titanium Dragon. I removed the associated citation along with two others, see below. The pro-antisemite refs were glommed together with the anti-antisemite refs, all at the end of one sentence at the very end of the lead. ~~in the beginning of the second sub-heading of the article~~ Most of those citations are discussed later in the article, before the strange Muntzer quote about Marx liking animals (relevance here? lol) but the three below are not. I might include them as External Links. If you have thoughts about this, please share. Without accessing the books, it is impossible to tell which of the first two are of each view.--FeralOink (talk) 06:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I clarified what I meant about the Muntzer quote here. Sorry about my lack of umlauts.--FeralOink (talk) 07:03, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Muravchik, Joshua (2003). Heaven on Earth: The Rise and Fall of Socialism. San Francisco: Encounter Books. p. 164. ISBN 1-893554-45-7.
Marvin Perry, Frederick M. Schweitzer. Antisemitism: Myth and Hate from Antiquity to the Present. Palgrave Macmillan. (2005). ISBN 1-4039-6893-4 pp. 154–157
Sacks, Jonathan (1997). The Politics of Hope. London: Jonathan Cape. pp. 98–108. ISBN 978-0-224-04329-8.

"Although others do not"

Is it not worth mentioning that both of the sources cited in support of the view that Marx's essay was not antisemitic are themselves self-avowed Marxists? They're hardly the most neutral sources for such a defense.

To rephrase, I hardly think two avowed Marxist scholars defending Marx against the charge of antisemitism constitutes a neutral defense of the claim made by non-Marxists.

If there were non-Marixst scholars who also defend that the essay is not antisemitic, would these not be *actually* neutral sources? KronosAlight (talk) 18:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's at all fair to assume that Marxist scholars are any less neutral than non-Marxist scholars on the issue, and in fact you could make the same argument about bias the other way round - it is perhaps worth noting that the source used to argue in favour of Marx's antisemitism on that very line is an article which also describes socialism as "the anti-Semitism of intellectuals" in a magazine often described as "neoconservative".

PaintTrash (talk) 00:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

The Undefined Behaviour Question

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