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Revision as of 21:37, 20 August 2005 editJ M Rice (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users1,704 edits →Yes, this needs peer review!← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 15:03, 8 January 2025 edit undoAlarichall (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers23,409 edits →GA concerns: ReplyTag: Reply
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			{{Article History
			\|action1=PR
			\|action1date=20:55:56 16 February 2008 (UTC)
			\|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Elf/archive1
			\|action1result=reviewed
			\|action1oldid=934185865

			\|action2=GAN
	:In some mythologies there are also dark elves, sometimes known as Drow, which are wicked and evil. Elves are enemies of the goblins.
			\|action2date=23:23, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
			\|action2link=Talk:Elf/GA1
			\|action2result=listed
			\|action2oldid=804585559

			\|topic=Socsci
	In what mythologies, outside of AD&D? AD&D is a gaming system, not a source of legitimate folklore. In much actual folklore, there is little distinction between elves, goblins, trolls, and other gremlins; they're all various kinds of little gremlins, or occasionally big gremlins, with (I think) no fixed speciation (as it were), as there is in Tolkien's works or those derivative of them. --]
			\|currentstatus=GA
			}}

			<!--{{Talk:Elf/GA1}}-->
	:I have seen references to "dark elves" in books on Norse mythology.As for the name Drow, I have never heard of it. Your are quite correct that elves, goblins, trolls, etc blend together. I suspect that many are regional variants, e.g., trolls may be the Norwegian version of elves. Poor scholarship and migration of peoples have probably confused once-seperate traditions. -- ]

			== Etymology not supported by sources ==
	No, it is true that the "races" blend together. However, they are not regional variants. In the old days, a Scandinavian farmer distinguished between a variety of creatures, such as ], ], ], ], ], etc. The difference was that they represented different ideas. The ] lived at the farm and helped the farmer during the night. The ] was the danger that lurked in the forest or in the mountain. The ] was the danger that dwelt in rivers and lakes, the ]s was a general name for different spritits in nature, and the ] were females that could bee seen dancing over bogs, in the evening, when the mist rose. The ] was the female that seduced men who walked in the forest, etc. etc. ]

			This article puts a lot of emphasis on "elf" being connection with the Latin "albh-" (which is the root of "albino"), and its primary source is the 2003 book "A handbook of Germanic etymology" by Orel. However this book does not support this claim. (If anyone has a copy, simply turn to page 13 to see for yourself, or check it out at Archive.org.)
	In norse mythology there also were ] called ]. ] 20:56, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

			It states:
	In Norse mythology, the elves are regarded as the alfs and dwell in Alfheim, or the realm of the light elves. As recognized in J.R.R. Tolkien's literary masterpiece The Lord of the Rings, the elves are seen as tall and beautiful beings that are far superior to Men in lore, architecture, song, and magic. They too will have apart in Ragnarok as they fight their evil counterparts, the dark elves who dwell in the underground world of Svartalfheim.
	Sal Della Villa- June 4, 2004

			'''albaz''' sb.m.: Burg ''alfs'' 'elf', ON ''alfr'' 'nightmare, elf', OE ''aelf'' 'elf, genius, incubus', MLG ''alf'' 'evil spirit', OHG ''alb'' id. Of uncertain origin. KUHN KZ IV 110 (to Skt ''rbhú-'' 'clever, skilful'); WADSTEIN ''Festschr. Bugge'' 152-155 (to ''albh-'' white'); TORP-FALK 21; SAUS-SURE apud MASTRELLI StG XIII 5-13 (to the name of the Alps); HOLTHAUSEN ''AEEW'' 186; POKORNY I 30; VRIES ''ANEW'' 5-6; KÖBLER 708; KLUGE-SEEBOLD 24-25.
	== Elves and Trolls... ==

			For '''albiz''' it states a primary link with 'deep river-bed' and 'river-bed'. It makes a passing reference to a connection with the Latin 'albus' and 'white', but then states "this etymology is not very reliable" due to the stronger connection with the Swedish 'alv' and 'elve', meaning 'river-bed').
	There is a distinct difference between Elves and Trolls.

			Looking through this talk page, this odd emphasis on "white" as part of its etymology has been brought up before, as it is not generally accepted elsewhere.
	Elves in Norse Mythology are portrayed as fair to behold, slim and possessed of magical powers. A troll, or Grendel, is a large brutish creature with a love of human flesh.

			For some reason this article seems intent on linking "elf" primarily with "whiteness" and "cleverness" and nothing else, but it is not supported by the current sources, and is actually contradicted by them.
	In folklore Elves are portrayed as Pixies and are still generally better-looking then trolls. Personally, an Elf is Tolkein's representation, as are Trolls or Grendels. The 'Elves' and the shoe-maker are nothing more than pixies.

			] (]) 21:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
	No offence to anyone, but these different races have only been merged and confused by people telling stories, folk who are not altogether interested in the true source. It's much like Chinese Whispers, where a little of the truth changes with each retelling.

			:In terms of this history of the Misplaced Pages article itself, the main reference for the paragraph you're talking about is actually Hall 2007, 54–55 (which, for full disclosure, is a book by me). As the phrasing of the paragraph has changed, it has come to look like that reference only applies to a sentence where I'm named specifically. I've added the same reference at the end of a couple of the other sentences in that paragraph just to make it clear that the paragraph all based on that book, not Orel.
	:When we're talking about fiction and folklore, every source is a true source. The shoe-maker elves and similar diminutive, industrious elf traditions (Santa's elves come to mind) actually have a lot more to do with Norse elves than English pixies. Likewise, Norse trolls varied between dwarf and giant, mischievous and evil. -- ] 04:25, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
			:Orel's book does cover the *''albh'' etymology (he explicitly says that Wadstein argues for it, and it's also in Vries ''ANEW'' at least). It's a shame that Guus Kroonen (2013), ''Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Germanic'', Leiden Indo-European Etymological Dictionary Series 11 (Leiden: Brill), doesn't include the elf-word — a weird omission.
			:But maybe the article should follow Orel's lead and say that the etymology is uncertain rather than 'generally agreed'?
			:I believe that Riccardo Ginevra's paper 'Old Norse Elves from a linguistic and comparative perspective', of which you can read a conference abstract , will be published in the next couple of years, and, regardless of what new arguments he may make about the etymology, hopefully he will have a thorough summary of past research on the question that we will be able to cite.
			:I don't that anyone thinks that the English word 'elf' has anything to do with the etymon of Swedish 'alv'. That similarity is just thought to be a coincidence. ] (]) 22:51, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

	== ~~The~~ ~~Drow.~~ ==		== GA concerns ==

			I am concerned that this article no longer meets the ], as lots of information seems to have been added to the lead since its 2017 promotion. This information should be checked to ensure it is sourced and verified, and much of it should be moved to the article body. Ther are also some uncited statements in the article. Is anyone interested in resolving this concern, or should this go to ]? ] (]) 21:13, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
	The Drow are chiefly in Dungeons and Dragons and do not appear in any myth or religion. They were based loosely on the concept of a Dark Elf... or Evil Elf.

			:Thanks for asking. I'll sort it out, if nobody else wants to do the honours. Additions since GAN are not an issue as such, though we may see the need to remove anything inapposite; but lack of citations obviously is. ] (]) 21:39, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
	They live underground, have black skin and white hair, practising torture frequantly.
			:: {{U\|Alarichall}}, I see you took this through GAN back in 2017, and have responded to comments since then. If you intend to answer Z1720's GA concerns now, good luck; I'm happy to lend a hand. ] (]) 21:44, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

			{{U\|Z1720}}, comparing the lead with the GA version, there was just one paragraph added: I've moved it out of the lead now. I've cut a small number of uncited statements in the article body. The article appears to be in good shape: it is well-structured, readable, fully-cited, and suitably illustrated. ] (]) 08:22, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
	:See ] for connections to real folklore, both in name and form. -- ] 16:50, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

			:Thanks for doing this, @]! I overlooked the discussion back in September. ] (]) 15:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

			== Historically questionable ==

			The claim that the renaissance would have been the starting point of elite culture is absurd. Elite culture is as old as elites. ] (]) 08:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	Is an elf with its head between its legs a goblin?
			: Fixed. The claim was too strong; what emerged was ''an'' elite culture. ] (]) 08:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

	== Paolini? ==

	''This view is shared by Christopher Paolini "Eragon" who also believed in the Norse elves and has written about elves in his book.''

	Is this of particular significance? It seems like a poorly-written "me too" inclusion of someone's favoured author. Recommend that someone familiar with Paolini revises it, expands it to explain why Paolini's not just another author who's "written about elves", or deletes it entirely if need be.


	== Other ==

	Less popular sources talk of a battle between the elves and other mystical creatures. Elves in theese stories are often depicted as small defensless beings living in trees. They are forced to this new habitat by loss of battle between the gnomes and pixies. Also in this tale pixies are described as fearsome beings with claws and blades at the tips of there wings.

	== Fixed the link ==

	To the Wiki Commons page. --] 06:42, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

	I just wanted to say that I very much appreciated this article; while there may be room for improvement, as it stands it's an excellent piece of work.


	== Just A Comment ==

	This article is fantastic. I've begun research on a fantasy world that I am creating for a series of novels, and this article has set me on track as far as Elves are concerned. I have a number of books on Elves set to arrive at a later date for more in-depth research, but this article, again, has set me off with a great start. - Matt S.

	I agree; this article really is quite good.
	] 10:57, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

	==The Shoemaker and the Elves==
	I removed this section from '''German folklore''':

	:''The ] fairy tale ''The Shoemaker & the Elves'' is probably the most famous original elf tale. The elves are only one foot tall in this story, naked, and like to work on shoes, as ] do. When the shoemaker rewards their work with little clothes, the elves are so delighted, that they run away and are never seen again. (This tale is echoed in ]'s ] stories: see ].)''

	These are not Elves, they are ''Heinzelmännchen'', which is translated as "elf" into English. If it absolutely has to be mentioned in the article, it would be more appropriate under '''English folklore''', since that is the only folklore where they are Elves.--] 4 July 2005 16:18 (UTC)

	:May I propose that the paragraph is reinserted at the bottom of the section as:

	::''In the ] fairy tale ''Der Schuhmacher und die Heinzelmännchen'', a group of naked, one foot tall beings called '']'' help a shoemaker in his work. When he rewards their work with little clothes, they are so delighted, that they run away and are never seen again. Even though ''Heinzelmännchen'' are akin to beings such as ]s and ], the tale has been translated to English as ''The Shoemaker & the Elves'', and is echoed in ]'s ] stories: see ].)''

	:Moreover, we have the problem with the ''nisser'' being described as elves, although if anything, they are descendants from ] and ]. As they are the Nordic equivalents to Santa's elves, I believe that they deserve a notice and a link, though, as long as they are not classified as elves. And by the way: where ''do'' the Santa-elves come from?

	:I also found out that ]'s fairy tale (Danish: ) in German is . {{smile}}

	:Andersen has also written about an ''alf'' in () and about ''elvere'' in (). Should probably be mentioned. --] 4 July 2005 18:06 (UTC)

	::Go for it! :)--] 4 July 2005 19:55 (UTC)

	== Removed from ] ==

	I, on my side, removed the following from the ] section:

	:''However, the elf legends are in fact, even older than ], the bishop on whom Santa Claus was originally based. (One modern fantasy shows Santa's Elves as being the children whom Saint Nicholas resurrected after they had been murdered. By this miracle, they became immortal, never growing older.)''

	According to the ] article "In some images of the early 20th century, Santa was depicted as personally making his toys by hand in a small workshop like a craftsman. Eventually, the idea emerged that he had numerous elves responsible for making the toys"

	As for the remark in parenthesis, it would be nice to know in ''what'' modern fantasy. --] 5 July 2005 00:21 (UTC)

	"In Dutch founded ], the traditions concerning Sinterklaas (now Santa Claus) continued, even though the black Peters sometime during the ] were converted to elves."

	Deleted it because it is impossible. Before 1945 the Saint operated solo or with one servant (That's traditionally Dutch), furthermore the name Pete was not given to this figure before 1891. His appearance can be fixed to 1850. Before that he seems to have been a rather hard to identify character. ]

	== Revision to Fantasy Elves ==

	Just changed the wording of the introductory paragraph to the fantasy elves, as most of it was redundant (the lengthy sentence on hobs and brownies having already been dealt with in the article). I did remove the reference to fairies, as "fairy" does not exclusively mean "pillywiggin" (insect-winged flower fairy). If you want to revert it, be my guest, but remember that the image of insect-winged fairies used in this article is becoming increasingly different than that of the fairy article, in which many different types of faeries are being mentioned (including, but not limited to, the elf equivalents in western Europe).
	-Iro
	:I made some rewording of your edit. I think you deleted some good prose. --] 17:44, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

	==Moving content to subarticles==
	There is no limit to the production of elves in popular culture. I think this article should focus on traditional elves, and I have created two subarticles for people to add their favourite elves in.--] 17:45, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

	==Etymology==
	I don't know who contributed this bit,
	:Although there has been debate, the words elf, álf and their relatives almost certainly come from the same Indo-European root *albh as the Latin albus (white).
	but it is reasonably correct (it really is disputed, tho').

	I have enough material at hand to expanded this by a sentence or two. Essentially, it can be related to a Vedic word for 'divine workman' and perhaps an Old Church Slavonic term for 'worker'. My own private theory is that this was name for a people who brought metal-working into the PIE lands (miners burrowing in the ground, the shiny metal they made (copper, perhaps gold, silver), even the shinyness of the glow of the forge fire.

	But this is not the place for an exercise in Indo-European reconstruction. In all of the elf articles, I see there is etymological information, and this might be nicely combined into a daughter article. This article is long as it is. --] 04:16, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

	:Well the guideline for a good article is that it should contain a section on etymology. It would be a great idea if you could write a subarticle on the etymology of ''elf'' and then link to it from the various articles (where you keep a line on the etymology).--] 06:59, 3 August 2005 (UTC)



	==The "Elves in popular culture" article==

	This article really should be re-incorporated back into the main Elf article. Why should a section entitled "Elves in popular culture" be entirely devoted to elves in RPGs?

	I've deleted the RPG paragraphs. They're all already in the "Elves in Popular culture" article anyway. I think, rather than looking at modern fantasy fiction or roleplay, a discussion of elves in popular culture should examine how they've manifested in everyday life. I've started a replacement paragraph but it needs work.

	] 11:11, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

	== Elves, not Christmas ==

	I removed the following passages from the article:

	:''In the ], ] (''Sinterklaas'') has traditionally been held to live in ] and be helped by a ] servant called the "Black Pete(r)" ('']en''). ''

	:''In the ] Santa is instead helped by '']'', dwarflike, bearded ]s, dressed in red and gray. Traditionally it was believed that one such being lived on every farm and protected it from mishaps. On ], one must give him a bowl of ] or ] to reward him for his work. Stories were told of how the nisse might otherwise take his revenge for not getting porridge by killing a goat.''

	:''In ], from ] until Christmas Eve, the thirteen ] (''jólasveinar'') visit homes, a lad each day for 13 days, and play tricks on the children, as well as leaving presents for them. They first appeared in the ] and are reportedly the sons of '']'' and '']'', two ]s with a taste for human children. However, the tradition is by some thought to be of pre-Christian origin, as it has much in common with the celebrations of ] in ] and ] on ]. ''

	None of these have anything to do with elves, but are about Santa's helpers. While elves are associated with this role in the US, UK and Canada, this does not merit the inclusion of non-elf-related Santa-helpers in other countries.

	] <sup>]</sup> 18:39, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

	:I support the removal.--] 19:03, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

	== Elvis ==

	In ], ''Elves'' is suggested as a Latin plural for "Elvis impersonator" (!). --] 15:10, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

	== Yes, this needs peer review! ==

	I just removed the '''''spurious''''' and illegal Lord of the Rings screen shots, and now they have been restored. I don't want to start an edit war, but we've got to stop articles from being taken over by a bunch of inane fans. To you who think having screen shots from copyrighted motion pictures is legal just because there are a lot of them on Misplaced Pages, think again: it only means that there are a lot of idiots who try to turn articles into Fanzines. The photos are also spurious because they add absolutely nothing to the article. Stop it NOW!

	This article has already been tagged for peer review. Keep it up, and it will also be tagged for for Clean-up and NPOV. — ] 21:36, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

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Elf has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
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February 16, 2008	Peer review	Reviewed
October 9, 2017	Good article nominee	Listed

Current status: Good article

Etymology not supported by sources

This article puts a lot of emphasis on "elf" being connection with the Latin "albh-" (which is the root of "albino"), and its primary source is the 2003 book "A handbook of Germanic etymology" by Orel. However this book does not support this claim. (If anyone has a copy, simply turn to page 13 to see for yourself, or check it out at Archive.org.)

It states:

albaz sb.m.: Burg *alfs 'elf', ON alfr 'nightmare, elf', OE aelf 'elf, genius, incubus', MLG alf 'evil spirit', OHG alb id. Of uncertain origin. KUHN KZ IV 110 (to Skt rbhú- 'clever, skilful'); WADSTEIN Festschr. Bugge 152-155 (to *albh- white'); TORP-FALK 21; SAUS-SURE apud MASTRELLI StG XIII 5-13 (to the name of the Alps); HOLTHAUSEN AEEW 186; POKORNY I 30; VRIES ANEW 5-6; KÖBLER 708; KLUGE-SEEBOLD 24-25.

For albiz it states a primary link with 'deep river-bed' and 'river-bed'. It makes a passing reference to a connection with the Latin 'albus' and 'white', but then states "this etymology is not very reliable" due to the stronger connection with the Swedish 'alv' and 'elve', meaning 'river-bed').

Looking through this talk page, this odd emphasis on "white" as part of its etymology has been brought up before, as it is not generally accepted elsewhere.

For some reason this article seems intent on linking "elf" primarily with "whiteness" and "cleverness" and nothing else, but it is not supported by the current sources, and is actually contradicted by them.

WikiMane11 (talk) 21:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

In terms of this history of the Misplaced Pages article itself, the main reference for the paragraph you're talking about is actually Hall 2007, 54–55 (which, for full disclosure, is a book by me). As the phrasing of the paragraph has changed, it has come to look like that reference only applies to a sentence where I'm named specifically. I've added the same reference at the end of a couple of the other sentences in that paragraph just to make it clear that the paragraph all based on that book, not Orel.

Orel's book does cover the *albh etymology (he explicitly says that Wadstein argues for it, and it's also in Vries ANEW at least). It's a shame that Guus Kroonen (2013), Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Germanic, Leiden Indo-European Etymological Dictionary Series 11 (Leiden: Brill), doesn't include the elf-word — a weird omission.

But maybe the article should follow Orel's lead and say that the etymology is uncertain rather than 'generally agreed'?

I believe that Riccardo Ginevra's paper 'Old Norse Elves from a linguistic and comparative perspective', of which you can read a conference abstract here, will be published in the next couple of years, and, regardless of what new arguments he may make about the etymology, hopefully he will have a thorough summary of past research on the question that we will be able to cite.

I don't that anyone thinks that the English word 'elf' has anything to do with the etymon of Swedish 'alv'. That similarity is just thought to be a coincidence. Alarichall (talk) 22:51, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

GA concerns

I am concerned that this article no longer meets the good article criteria, as lots of information seems to have been added to the lead since its 2017 promotion. This information should be checked to ensure it is sourced and verified, and much of it should be moved to the article body. Ther are also some uncited statements in the article. Is anyone interested in resolving this concern, or should this go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 21:13, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. I'll sort it out, if nobody else wants to do the honours. Additions since GAN are not an issue as such, though we may see the need to remove anything inapposite; but lack of citations obviously is. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:39, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Alarichall, I see you took this through GAN back in 2017, and have responded to comments since then. If you intend to answer Z1720's GA concerns now, good luck; I'm happy to lend a hand. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:44, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Z1720, comparing the lead with the GA version, there was just one paragraph added: I've moved it out of the lead now. I've cut a small number of uncited statements in the article body. The article appears to be in good shape: it is well-structured, readable, fully-cited, and suitably illustrated. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:22, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this, @Chiswick Chap! I overlooked the discussion back in September. Alarichall (talk) 15:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Historically questionable

The claim that the renaissance would have been the starting point of elite culture is absurd. Elite culture is as old as elites. Odoaker Valdas (talk) 08:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Fixed. The claim was too strong; what emerged was an elite culture. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

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