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==Invitation to CfD Category:Pseudoskeptic Target Discussion==
== Are you really leaving? ==
I noticed that you have edited in related areas within WP, and so thought you might have an interest in ].] (]) 18:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


== Treatment techniques ==
Don't do that. Your always ], level-headed, and good-natured presence will be sorely missed on all sorts of articles. ] 01:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


The ] section needs an expert on the subject. I hope you are interested in helping out in reaching ] status for ]. This is possible with the help of an expert. ] (]) 23:48, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
:Glad to see you're back (are you back?) ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 23:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


==Request==
== Your ] ] ==
Hiya, at the pseudosciences list, I realize that it's a hot topic, but unless there's a strong consensus to do so on the talkpage, it's probably not a good idea to be removing sourced information like this. You may wish to ''modify'' the information, but the citations themselves should probably be left in place. Thanks, --]]] 04:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


:Hi Elonka, good to see you're still here. I respect what you are trying to do. Sorry to get involved, I'll leave it up to you. -- ] ] 04:34, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
{| style="border:1px solid black; background:#efe8fe; padding:3px;" align=center
:: Yes, was on vacation for awhile (Caribbean cruise, it was great!), and just got back last night. I'm still wading through my watchlist, and trying to sort out where I can best help. Do feel free to keep engaging at the pseudoscience list, I'm not trying to scare you off. :) All I'm asking is that you leave the citations in place, and perhaps try to modify the information ''from'' those citations. For example, perhaps create a new subsection on that page for certain entries, or rewrite them a bit? I'm not sure, I'm just trying to help avoid the "A reverts B, C reverts A, D reverts C, etc." edit wars. ;) Thanks for understanding, --]]] 04:41, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
|]
| <div style="font-family:Verdana;">Good afternoon (] time); I have accepted a ] ] - requested by ] - to which you are listed as a party. Mediation has commenced at the ], where you are invited to participate.


:::And you are doing a wonderful job as usual. I am sure that you will eventually get a good grip on it, but I'm afraid I don't have the kind of time it takes to deal with QuackGuru's loving little soul. If the bar for the inclusion criteria ever sinks so low as to include chiropractic, a profession that sees 10% of the US population in any one year, then it is too vague to clear the NPOV criteria for lists. If you raise that bar then it fails ], no matter what any quasi-reliable source says. Just doing my part.
If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me via ], ] or my ]; I will try to answer all your questions as fully as possible in so far as it does not compromise my ].


:::Did you do the Eastern cruise or the Western cruise? I've done both and loved each of them. I wanna go baaaackk!!! Though I was concerned about your situation last year, glad to see you fought through it.
''Kind regards'',


<span style="font-family: Verdana">]<sup><nowiki>]]</sup></span><br>18:29, April 17, 2007 (]) :::Thanks for your kindness. -- ] ] 04:59, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
|}


:::: Nice to see two people whom I highly respect. Elonka, that might surprise you, chiroskeptic that I am, but Dematt is a man of integrity. Even when we disagree, and we do at times, we do it agreeably ;-) He has been the major factor in the expansion of the chiropractic article from a pitiful state to what it is today. A great Wikipedian!
== Welcome back ==


:::: I am uneasy about the current dispute, since I'm somewhat split over the issue. The heading states that we can include the opinions of skeptics, but they are being kept out. The inclusion criteria are right in the heading, but PSCI is being applied. The problem is, we aren't placing it in the Category, just documenting that skeptics consider it to be pseudoscientific.
I don't know if you remember me but you were a help to me when I first started out. I am still learning slowly but have gotten a lot better. I'm glad to see you back because you are an editor who is calm and has an open mind even if you do not agree. Again, I hope to see you around. --] 10:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


:::: OTOH, I also have qualms about including "chiropractic" as a whole, since it's a mixed bag. The parts of chiropractic that are generally considered pseudoscientific are three things:
== List of Accredited Naturopathic Medical Schools in North America ==


::::* ] (VS) and
I was hoping you had time to chime in ].--] 18:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
::::* ], with its ].


:::: VS is still the philosophical (no VS, no excuse for the existence of the profession) and legal foundation of the profession (no treatment of subluxation, no payment from Medicare!), and that is problematic for chiropractic and its reputation in the scientific and skeptical community, since it's a pseudoscientific construct without anatomical basis. Only chiropractors (mostly straights) believe in it. Many are openly against it, but it would be suicidal of the profession to openly reject it.
== Thanks! ==


:::: Ideally we should include those three concepts, and state that the first two are elements of chiropractic, and include vitalism by itself, since it is an element of many forms of alternative medicine, not just chiropractic.
Thanks for your greeting. Hope all's well. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i>/<b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 20:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


:::: I'm tired of the wikilawyering that panders to the fringe, instead of fighting for an NPOV version that will allow inclusion. Changing the article's title will solve that problem. People can choose one side or the other. Either they will exploit the current title to support keeping fringe ideas out, or they will support an NPOV title to allow inclusion. BTW, these elements of chiropractic that should be mentioned aren't "Questionable science", but clearly PS. They are in the first two of the four ] criteria.
== The next steps at ] ==
With the mediation halted, I have put together a compromise in the spirit of good faith ]. I know there are other steps of ] we can go through, including another attempt at mediation, but I am hoping we can all settle this amongst ourselves. I would appreciate your opinion on the compromise and/or your ideas of what the next steps may be. Thanks. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="2" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 18:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


:::: One things is certain, no matter what we do, and no matter how well sourced, and even if ] himself appeared and admitted he had been one of the greatest quacks of all time, Levine2112 will appear and make sure that the word chiropractic is not allowed to stay on the page, even if he has to use socks and meatpuppets. There will never be peace there if the word is mentioned. The edit history has shown that to be the case. Only tight admin control and sanctions can prevent that. -- ] (]) 05:51, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
==RfM Stephen Barrett==
A ] has been filed with the ] that lists you as a party. The Mediation Committee requires that all parties listed in a mediation must be notified of the mediation. Please review the request at ], and indicate whether you agree or refuse to mediate. If you are unfamiliar with mediation, please refer to ]. '''There are only seven days for everyone to agree, so please check as soon as possible.'''
-- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="2" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 23:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


:::::Hi Fyslee, thanks for the kudos. I know you are doing your best to be as neutral as you can and I do appreciate that, but you have to remember that pseudoscience is a pejorative and is a serious accusation. You can't create a list with 'the skeptical inquirer' as inclusion criteria as one of the accusers and expect it to ever be NPOV. That is why we require things like . So if you really want to work toward NPOV and credibility for wikipedia, work to correct the inclusion criteria and the rest will take care of itself.
==Request for Mediation==
{| class="messagebox" style="width:80%"
|-
|]
|
|A ] to which you are a party was not accepted and has been delisted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, ].
::::::::''For the Mediation Committee,'' <span style="color:red;font-weight:bold">^</span>]<sup></span>]]


:::::By the way, ] is not pseudoscience. All healers were vitalists until the early 20th century. Now when vitalists inject a spiritual being into the picture, it becomes religious, but that is not pseudoscience by definition. The new vitalists have migrated to ] - and that is all materalistic and uses organization as an explanation for the development of intelligence when reductionist concepts can no longer answer the questions of life. One of our very own past wikipedians ] is one of those, and actually has finished on the ''first'' model of how an emergent system might work showing how oxytocin will not result in lactation without suckling because the hypothalimus must receive the nerve stimulation from the alveoli before it will be primed to release the oxytocin. There is no way to have understood these processes in the days of DD Palmer, so yes they gave them spiritual elements. All people believed that. Innate intelligence has little scientific meaning today and I don't know any chiropractors that use the term (not saying there aren'a ny out ther), but can be thought of as a metaphor for those body functions that are controlled by the brain, which are most all as far as anyone knows. The degree that chiropractic has any affect on those functions is being studied. Is it going to show that 'chiropractic cures all ills' - No. And no-one says so. If you find any chiropractic organization that says so, let me know. Now are there chiropractors that think they can cure all ills - YES, and they drive us all crazy, but that does not mean that they are pseudoscientists, only crazy.
<small><center>This message delivered by ], an automated bot account operated by the ] to perform case management. If you have questions about this bot, please ].</center></small>
|}
<div align="right">''This message delivered: 08:21, 22 June 2007 (UTC)''.</div>


:::::Thanks for lending me your ear. -- ] ] 06:46, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
== Thank you ==


== Hey, Dematt!! ==
I just want to say you were quite patient and helpful to me. You really are a very nice editor and fair in your responses. Keep up the great work! Please except this barnstar from me for you help. I hope I did it correctly, if not please correct it so it is properly done, still learning this. --]] 11:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


<big>Welcome back!!!!</big> ... and thanks for the barnstar! <span style="color:Purple; font-size:19pt;">☺</span>](]) 01:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
<blockquote>
:Welcome back to The Other Place (tm) :-). BTW, can you get the necessary people over at the Other-Other Place to edit their Vit C article to make it more readible. It's long winded gibberish at the moment, almost like it's been run through Bablefish or something :-(. Ta ] (]) 11:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
]
Please except this barnstar from Crohnie, Dematt you deserve this. --]] 11:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
</blockquote>


==ArbCom request for clarification: ]==


A request has been made for clarification of the ArbCom case ] as it relates to ]. I'm leaving this notification with all editors who have recently edited the article or participated in discussion. For now, the pending request, where you are free to comment, may be found ]. regards, ] (]) 13:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:Your welcome but you really deserve the barnstar for being so patient and helping me out. I will let you know what happens via email. --]] 11:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


== File:Chirocad 300dpi.jpg listed for deletion ==
== I was about to clear my page until ==
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|Thank you.}} <!-- Template:Idw --> ] (]) 22:45, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


== NowCommons: File:Ddpalmer3.jpg ==
I was about to leave permanently and clear my pages until I saw the barnstar you left me. I don't do arguments very well and run from them. I thought things would be different here then on the net but I guess being attacked is going to happened no matter where I go. Thank you so very much for the barnstar. It actually brings tears to my eyes thinking someone took the time to think of me like this. Thank you very much, --]] 12:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
] is now available on ] as ]. This is a repository of free media that can be used on all Wikimedia wikis. The image will be deleted from Misplaced Pages, but this doesn't mean it can't be used anymore. You can embed an image uploaded to Commons like you would an image uploaded to Misplaced Pages, in this case: <nowiki>]</nowiki>. Note that this is an automated message to inform you about the move. This bot did not copy the image itself. --] (]) 01:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
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==File permission problem with File:Chiropractic.JPG==
:I need to ask you this: why does the treatment my son gets only last the day, at least it did the last treatment. There is a doc talking about continuing the treatment a bit longer and if it continues to be such short term help then he wants him so see a surgeon to fix it. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Of course you can email me about this. Thanks again for all you help, understanding and helping me understand chiropractic. --]] 16:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
]
Thanks for uploading ''']'''{{#if:|, which you've sourced to {{{source}}}.|.}} I noticed that while you provided a valid copyright licensing tag, there is no proof that the creator of the file agreed to license it under the given license.


If you created this media entirely yourself but have previously published it elsewhere (especially online), please either
::That sounds like absolutely reasonable advice so far. The timing is about right to be looking to evaluate referral options if things don't work out. I'll email. ---- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 16:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
* make a note permitting reuse under the ] or another acceptable free license (see ]) '''at the site of the original publication'''; or
* Send an email from an address associated with the original publication to '''''', stating your ownership of the material and your intention to publish it under a free license. You can find a sample permission letter ].


If you did not create it entirely yourself, please ask the person who created the file to take one of the two steps listed above, or if the owner of the file has already given their permission to you via email, please forward that email to ''''''.
::Thanks, got it. Will get back to you as soon as I can. I'm really sick right now, a bug I think but it hard to tell a bug from Crohn's! :) --]] 19:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


If you believe the media meets the criteria at ], use a tag such as {{tlp|non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at ], and add a ] justifying the file's use on the article or articles where it is included. See ] for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.
==miss you, too==
saw your note on that talk page about CZ, and i miss you , too, Matt. I've been getting my site together- there is so much to do, and all the distractions of real life, to boot. Anyway, hope to work with you again someday, soon. ] 02:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have provided evidence that their copyright owners have agreed to license their works under the tags you supplied, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following . '''Files lacking evidence of permission may be deleted one week after they have been tagged''', as described on ]. If you have any questions please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-no permission-notice --> ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 01:45, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
answered on my talk ] 03:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


== A little job == == FICS ==


Thanks for fixing my reference :) I'm hoping to move the article over to mainspace soon, but the admin that deleted it last month says he still thinks it fails ], so I'm going to try to dig up a few more references if possible.
I have taken the liberty of nominating you to do a little job. Read this section and see my nomination at :
Good to see you are back - I myself have taken several months off, and am not sure how much I'll be on here.
] (]) 03:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
:Also, I don't know how much I'm going to be around, would you mind watchlisting the FICS article? ]... thanks! ] (]) 04:14, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


== invite ==
* http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Chiropractic#Ernst -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i>/<b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 20:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


{{tb|Drsjpdc}} ] (])<sup>]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-3.2ex;">]</sub> 22:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
I made a little change, but this is a sticky one. If we lower the bar, that opens it up to a large amount of data both pro and con that likely will not change the net result but could end up dragging on like the SB pages ;-) -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 02:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


==File source problem with File:BJPalmer2.jpg==
==Citizendium article on Extinction (geology)==
]
Hi Matt,
Thank you for uploading ''']'''. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the ] status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.


If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created . '''Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged''' per Misplaced Pages's ], ]. If the image is ] and ], '''the image will be deleted 48 hours after 10:27, 6 May 2010 (UTC)''' per ] criterion ]. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-no source-notice --> ] (]) 10:27, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your note on ] concerning the errors in Citizendium's Extinction article. I'm glad people are working on fixing the issue. I see they have already the italics and spelling. However, the problematic ''Edmontosaurus''-died-from-lack-of-conifers theory is still in the article! The source supposedly cited for that information, , does not mention either conifers or ''Edmontosaurus'' anywhere in the text. It's a very odd claim, and a false citation.


== AfD - Chiropractic controversy and criticism ==
The thing that worries me the most about errors like this is that there doesn't seem to be an easy way to report errors to Citizendium. Few editors seem to have listed e-mail addresses, the forum approval system doesn't seem to work well (in my experience), and the one e-mail I did get sent off did not receive a prompt response. I realize since Citizendium is new, there are many bugs that need to be worked out, but there should be an easy way to contact the site in the case of errors. Thanks for your attention.


== ] nomination of ] ==
Best wishes and happy editing,
<font color="#0000FF">]</font> 19:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>An article that you have been involved in editing, ], has been listed for ]. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at ]. Thank you.{{-}}Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message.<!-- Template:Adw --> - I am notifying you because you participated in the original AfD. ] (]) 20:01, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
:I agree with you on all of these counts. Our challenge is more with the manpower in creating the software variables to help us allow people to do this. There has been lots of discussion, but the changes happen slowly! I can't wait till we get them all going! -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 20:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


== Need to re-think == == Harvey Lillard ==


Hello :) I saw you're quite the expert on chiropractic and wanted to tell you that I'll be creating an article about Harvey Lillard these days. I'll write it ] first- if you ever see something not right I'd be more than grateful if you could tell me about it. Regards! --] <sup><big>]</big></sup> 16:44, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Hello Dematt,


==File source problem with File:Harvey Lillard.jpg==
thank you for welcoming me into the community. I was interested in the article on Chiropractic. Right now I am living very busy days....I hope to have some time in the future to bring up a conversation on some improvements I think can be made there. For now, I don't have the time to engage in ...debates. Frankly...too much for me right now. But, I hope you are still here then. Thank you.
]
Thank you for uploading ''']'''. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the ] status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.


If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created . '''Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged''' per Misplaced Pages's ], ]. If the image is ] and ], '''the image will be deleted 48 hours after 18:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)''' per ] criterion ]. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-no source-notice --> ] (]) 18:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


==File source problem with File:Harvey Lillard.gif==
]
]
Sept 7
Thank you for uploading ''']'''. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the ] status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.


If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created . '''Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged''' per Misplaced Pages's ], ]. If the image is ] and ], '''the image will be deleted 48 hours after 18:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)''' per ] criterion ]. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-no source-notice --> ] (]) 18:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
==Citizendium (again)==
Hi Matt,


==File source problem with File:Innate Drawing2.jpg==
This is ] again. I'm so sorry to bother you with Citizendium stuff on your Misplaced Pages account, and I realize this could quickly become annoying. I know you are not the "Citizendium complaints department" and you are busy writing articles for more than one encyclopedia. Still, there's just no way for a non-editor to correct errors on Citizendium (no-one has contact information, or if they do, they've already left the project; the forum registration system doesn't work for dubious types like myself, etc). So I come to you again. Sorry in advance for any stress these corrections cause. The last thing I want to do is offend or upset you. You've been quite responsive and helpful.
]
Thank you for uploading ''']'''. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the ] status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.


If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created . '''Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged''' per Misplaced Pages's ], ]. If the image is ] and ], '''the image will be deleted 48 hours after 17:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC)''' per ] criterion ]. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-no source-notice --> ] (]) 17:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
There's a major problem with . It's a wonderful article, very well-written, and the author is to be commended for including discussion of the important role the ] played in early U.S. television history. DuMont's prominent role is not well-remembered today, leading to entire books on the history of television to omit it entirely. I was pleasantly surprised to see it included in the Citizendium article. However, there are some errors that should be corrected before this article "goes live" (or whatever the term is). The article states ''With the collapse of the DuMont network in 1959, its three main affiliates were absorbed into ABC, which remained the smallest of the three networks througout most of this period.'' None of that is correct.


== ] ==
DuMont collapsed in 1955-1956 (cancelled most programs on April 1, 1955; final broadcast, '']'' August 6, 1956). Even though some sources mistate the dates, the 1955 and '56 dates are supported by the most reputable sources: '''', (Bergmann 2002); '''', (Weinstein, 2004); ''Total Television'', (McNeil, 1996); and . I'm not aware of any source listing ''1959'' as DuMont's closure date.


Hi Matt,
DuMont's three owned and operated stations (WABD, WTTG, and WDTV) were certainly ''not'' absorbed into ABC: WDTV was bought by Westinghouse; WABD and WTTG became independent stations until purchased by FOX in 1985/6. DuMont's strongest affiliate stations, WGN-TV in Chicago and KTTV in Los Angeles, never affiliated with ABC. There was no absorbing of DuMont's major affiliates into ABC, and no source that I'm aware of states this. I have eight books on DuMont on my shelf, including Ted Bergmann's. Since Bergmann was an exec at DuMont, he would certainly know what happened to the company at the end.

The article states ''At the same time, the introduction of UHF frequencies added a new venue for smaller, independent television stations.'' Actually, UHF was never on a par with VHF, and being located on a UHF station only guaranteed a station would remain both small and independent, as the three post-50s commercial networks avoided affiliations with UHF stations because UHF station turnover was so high. The sentence isn't wrong, but the idea that the introduction of UHF created a "venue" should be avoided entirely: most UHFs from 1952 to the 1980s, even well-funded ventures, quickly folded. Also, in the photo caption, DuMont is spelled "Dumont"; that should also be avoided (Weinstein, 2004: "A note on spelling", in the introduction).

Matt, if you can somehow get these errors fixed, I would greatly appreciate it. I know you are quite busy with Citizendium duties and may not be able to respond immediately. I think Citizendium's television article is off to a great start, and would like to see it improved further. I had considered signing up for membership, but the personal information requirement, along with my duties on Misplaced Pages, preclude that. Best wishes and happy editing, <font color="#0000FF">]</font> 21:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

:No problem Firsfron, I can take a look. I am not familiar with the article itself or who is working on it (if anyone at this point). If not, I can make the changes myself - it is a wiki ;-). I'm sure if anything is incorrect, and someone actually knows this stuff as well as you, they will change it back, then we can go from there. I am 'young' enough to remember that my television only went to channel 13 and when UHF came out, we could only wish we could see what they were watching on UHF :-). Let me know if I get anything wrong.

:You do know that you do not have to publish your CV, just let the constables see it. You do have to use your real name though - but if you are a hit man or something they will let you sign up with a pseudonym :D I think you would be a great addition to our small but growing virtual world. You can stay here, too! ---- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 02:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

::Okay, I made some changes, see what you think. ---- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 02:36, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
:::Thank you, Matt. The are, in my opinion, quite good. Thank you very much for your time. If you need exact page numbers for book citations, I can certainly provide those as well, though I'm at work right now and will have to go home to get them, and my (admittedly limited) understanding is that Citizendium frowns on Misplaced Pages's inline citation craze. I'd love to see Citizendium become a well-respected source of information, and it's quick responses like yours which make me think Citizendium is coming along quite well. Clearly, someone cared for this article; things like the old DuMont advert add a beautiful touch. From what I can tell, though, the main editor involved in the creation of the article has since left Citizendium and will not return. If you hadn't intervened, this article would still contain the mistakes, and possibly would for the forseeable future.
:::Your comment about being young when UHF came out ('52 when it was established, '64 when it was manditory on US TV sets) makes me think you must be quite 'young' indeed! I certainly don't remember it, but I do remember only getting four channels for many, many years. When my TV started picking up a low-quality UHF FOX signal back around 1989, I thought it was some sort of a miracle!
:::Thanks for the invite to Citizendium; I continue to consider it. Thanks again for all your assistance. I promise not to darken your talk page with further Citizendium critiques. Best wishes and happy editing, <font color="#0000FF">]</font> 03:10, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
::::I firmly believe that we continue to grow as long as we are learning, and begin dying as we stop the learning process. I think it's impossible to learn "everything" about ''any'' subject. I'm certainly not an expert (on anything, really), but I know mistakes when I see 'em! At least on a couple of entirely obscure subjects. ;) <font color="#0000FF">]</font> 03:42, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

== Temporary block ==

Really, you've been here long enough to know better - don't make ] violations of ]. I've given you a 31 hour block, you seem sensible enough, so just don't do it again. ] <sup>]</sup> 00:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Adam, I am more surprised at you? What makes you think I am trying to make a point? Pasteur, Lister and Semmelwies were all called quacks in their day. I have placed the reference, and there are more. Anyone who knows the history of medicine is aware of this. It is not a bad thing, it is a neutral thing. You have to keep in mind that Pasteur and Lister were chemists, the doctors of the day were very much put off by them; they called them quacks (and worse). That is common throughout history. It is not saying they are quacks, it was saying that they were "notable people that were called quacks".. See what I mean? I think you assumed I was calling them quacks, but it is quite the opposite. Please reconsider and let the collaboration process work. I am sure if I said something wrong, it will get worked out. ---- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 01:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

:Well... you didn't do a very good job at justifying them (e.g. there was no mention in the text itself of why they would be considered quacks, or even that they were considered quacks) And the addition was, at least, poorly thought-out. But, well, if it was just a somewhat ill-thought out edit, I can't say any of us haven't had those. You must admit, though, that at the least they looked extremely out of place.

:Anyway, I could pontificate a long time, but I suspect you'd rather I get to the unblocking. ] <sup>]</sup> 02:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

::Thank you Adam, If you click on the edit under that section in the ] article, you will see a commented out section that the previous authors of the stable version gave instructions about what to put in that section. Apparently I was not supposed to put the reason in.. so that the reader can decide. I can see how it would look strange. Maybe this should be clarified or something?

::Anyway, I am much abliged, but it is time for me to call it a night for now. Thanks for reconsidering, I owe you one ;-) ---- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 02:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

:::I fo apologise: it's just that there's no real setup for it in the article, and so... well, I worked on various alternative medicine articles. Those are two of the greats of germ theory. Believe it or not, a lot of the alternative medicine proponents reject germ theory in favour of their preferred vitalist theories. And adding germ theory proponents to a list like that that includes a few alternate medicine proponents is just the ] violation some of the editors I've worked with would make on seeing a favoured quack in a list like that.
:::See what Misplaced Pages does to your faith in humanity? Awful, I swear! ] <sup>]</sup> 02:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

::::Just to insert my 2 cents: there are plenty of editors of all stripes on alt-med topics who are probably richly deserving of a ] block, but Dematt's not one of them. He's always been a solid contributor, and I'm sure any appearance to the contrary was an unforunate misunderstanding. Glad to see it's sorted out. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 03:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
:::::I was also shocked to see "blocked" on my watchlist. I'm glad it was all straightened out. :/ <font color="#0000FF">]</font> 05:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

:::::: Hi Dematt, I too was shocked by this block esp. with you going out of your way to help me and m son. Is there anyway to remove the histories of this block to give you back a clean slate on the block log? I just think it's fair to have them removed since it was a communication problem. I find you to be very honest and you also listen to others and are fair to try to keep NPOV in mind. I just think it should be removed if possible. I'll send up another update as soon as I can. Again, thank you for helping me understand chiropractic protocols. --]] 12:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

:::::::I'd support this, as it was a misunderstanding. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Definite support. Dematt isn't the type to make a POINT vio. He's a very solid editor and I would definitely support him if he ever chose to be an admin. BTW Adam, I didn't know you were an admin. How about putting something on your user page to indicate that a bit more clearly. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 15:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Adam! Off to work for me. I hope the change gets made soon. Thanks again, --]] 13:11, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

:There isn't any way to "purge" the block log; it's pretty much indelible. The best approach at this point is just to note that it was a misunderstanding, as exemplified in the unblock summary, and perhaps save a permalink to this discussion - that way, in case it should ever come up again, you can point people here to get the context. Every now and then I think the developers are asked to implement a way to clear a block log, but I think it's always been rejected as too easily abused. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 15:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

:: I can understand their point, but another possibility would be to a enable <s>strikethrough<s> and accompanying explanation and links.-- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 16:24, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow, thanks everybody. I am totally touched by all the support, thank you all for making my day! I'm not worried about the block log. When you play with fire, you're bound to get burned occasionally. Adam was doing what he thought was best and lord knows this stuff gets complicated quickly. So no harm, no foul. I'll make sure an use the talk page next time;-) ---- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 00:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
:BTW, it looks like my IP is still blocked, so I have a few hours left. See ya soon. ---- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 00:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

==Help with Sockpuppet investigation?==
Re: ], ]. See . I'm not sure how to approach this sockpuppet report. Levine will likely not participate in any informal discussion on the issue. I think TheDoctorIsIn should have a chance before a formal report is written. Other suggestions? --] 17:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
:I'm not sure what I would do in your case, either. Just be careful cause it looks like you are harrassing both of them. Aren't there ways for admins to find these things out? -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 18:01, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
::If you want to suggest ways to reword what I've written, please do. I'm going forward with my next step in this, to ask for help in a meatpuppet investigation. I don't think TheDoctorIsIn is a sock (the same person using different accounts) of Levine2112. However, I think his edits justify a sockpuppet investigation as a meatpuppet. --] 18:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
::] --] 18:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

:::I think if you think there is a meatpuppet, then you should just request an admin check it out. I would probably ask MastCell. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 02:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

== Good morning, at least where I am! :) ==

I just wanted to pop in and say hello. I appreciated your help about how Chiropractic care for my son. Unfortunately it didn't work for him and he has gotten so bad that probably by the end of this week he will be referred to a neurosurgeon to get an opinion about the two ruptures in the mid part of his back. I have to admit, I think this is a good step for him to do. He has been in pain since leaving the army in 2002 and is way past do to feeling better. He suffers miserable these days. :(

I have to say though, the Chiro he saw could never 'adjust that part of his back'. The muscles fought it and then the spasms he gets went crazy. The massage part though did help ease this for a little while. I did learn and understand a lot from you about what this Chiropractor was trying to do and I appreciate all the help. You are a very kind and patient person. I hope you have a wonderful day. --]] 11:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

PS: Feel free to email me if you would like.--]] 12:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi CrohnieGal, good to hear from you. It sounds like you followed a perfectly rational approach to your sons condition and surgery is your next step. I do hope he finally gets some relief. There is nothing more miserable than back pain. Let me know how everything goes!!! In fact I want a play by play, even the specific name of the procedure they perform, okay? Just one question.. did the chiropractor refer him to the neurosurgeon or did he have to look for one on his own? -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 01:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

:Hi, Neither, his pain management dr is taking it to the next steps. I will email you when I know something for sure. Thanks,--]] 12:38, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
:I wanted to clarify the above that I said. He is on a HMO which requires referrals which in his case is very difficult to get from his primary. His pain doc sent him for an MRI of his ankle which is the cause of his back problems, 9+ months on crutches which the back problems were called "crutch leaning injuries". The last that was done, also sent by the pain doc, was a test with needle in different locations, EMG I think it was called but could be wrong with the name of this. Everything was going as expected for over an hour until the final needles went into the mid of his back. The tester said he went of the charts. This area is where he has the most damage, 2 or 3 damaged disks and lots of acute pain. On Thursday we both see the pain doc (I have been seeing the pain doc for around 4 years do to acute chronic pain issues from my many surgeries for Crohn's.) We both trust this doc immensely. The tester tried to explain but then just said that our pain doc would connect the dots for him. So, the next step will probably be med adjustments (maybe) and a referral for an opinion from a neurosurgeon. The doc was saying last month that because things have gotten so bad with his ankle, MRI showed it needed cleaning out) and the back pain is not controllable very well that the neurosurgeon he will see will be doing the kind of surgery less evasive, kind of like a key hole surgery. The surgery is supposed to be something like adding something like cement to stop the problems; at least this is the best analogy I can think of. My son is to the point that he is more than ready for the surgery, he wants and needs something to be done to get some sort of relief to get back to life again. This is the best I can explain right now but I will email you and let you know how the appt on Thursday goes. --]] 14:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

::I see on the Chiropractic article that there is a big discussion about whether adjustment are safe. Well, in case you are interested, his Chiropractic said that adjusting the mid back 'could possibly and most likely' cause big damage to his spine with adjusting it and said massage would be the better option. I know that this is just a testimony from me but I am sure someone could find citations stating this. Also, this Chiropractor was not against pain management and drugs, he just didn't like the amount my son was taking to try control his pain. He was very open and honest about how he dealt with Chiropractic problems. Like I said I don't know if this means anything or is helpful but I thought I would let you know. I lurk this article to see if there is anything I am missing to help my son. --]] 14:17, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Good feedback, it sounds like your son has some good doctors. I am glad to hear that the chiropractor knew when not to manipulate. That is the kind of thing I am interested in hearing from the 'real world'. We read so many different things, I wonder how others treat. Keep me in touch, and I would love to see a icture of that MRI of the midback if you ever figure out how to email one:-) -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 01:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Good morning, I wouldn't have a clue on how to send you the MRI. Some of these kinds of test come with a CD but unfortunately this one didn't. --]] 11:19, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Hi again, I can ask my son about this. He has had many, and I mean a lot of MRI's to the mid back and upper neck. The neck disks are dried out, can't remember the right terminology. One suggestion I can make for you is if you have a patient that you want to do an MRI on, do the one in the tube, not the stapped in sitting one. That one hurt him for days! --]] 11:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

==AfD nomination of ]==
]An article that you have been involved in editing, ], has been listed for ]. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:adw --> &mdash;] (]) 19:42, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

== Happy holidays! ==

You are a very nice person and I remember the help and support you gave me. I just want to wish you a very happy and healthy holiday. May 2008 bring you much happiness. --]] 17:28, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

== Happy Healthy New Year! ==

It is nice seeing you posting. I just want to wish you a very Happy and Healthy New Year! You were very helpful to me in the past and I just want to again say thank you. Some things have changed for this year with him. If interested drop me a line. --]] 11:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

==A question about Quackwatch==
I wonder if you would consider looking at this section, its subsections. I am hoping to get some advice on how to move this discussion forward. Thanks. ] (]) 01:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Anthon01, that looks pretty complicated. Give me a chance to absorb what has been said and I can at least give you my 2 cents, which is worth about 2 cents ;-) Welcome to WP! -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 02:22, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay Anthon01. It looks to me as though the Pharmacy source is an attempt to provide its readers with an unbiased evaluation of websites. It appears verifiable and reliable to me as an opinion piece. Having said that, I do think it would be POV to include only the limitations without some of the praise. Crohnie makes a good point about it being from 1999, but then I guess you would have to reconsider the "good" articles that were from before 2000 as well. Since this is an opinion piece, attribution is necessary to have it included I think. At this point, I don't think any of the suggestions have nailed it, yet, but theoretically you are getting closer; provided everyone embraces the idea of an encyclopedia that includes rather than deletes. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 02:47, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

:Hi, I think that if any of the articles shows that changes were already made like the 'Pharmacy' then they too should be removed. If an article is out dated then it shouldn't be in the article, in my opinion, since it would be false information. I dont' remember any of the other articles being so blatently wrong and outdated as this one is, but I haven't read them for awhile now. But I do agree that picking just one section of the Pharmacy source goes against ] and ] and probably some more policies. Of course this is just my opinion, but I think more time is needed to allow comments from other editors who edit this article too. --]] 11:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

:: Dematt: Thanks for taking a look. As to praise, are you talking primary(from the author) or secondary (from another source that is retold by the author)? Could you point to an example of praise the you see in the article? I don't see any praise coming form the reviewer himself. From my view, the review is written form a NPOV. Some editors have suggested that it is a ''positive'' article. I see it as a neutral article with some criticism. '''Regarding attribution,''' I believe the text already attributes it to the reviewer. The text states "Bao-Anh Nguyen-Khoa PharmD discussed two articles from Quackwatch of particular interest to pharmacists." Is that inadequate?
:: Crohnie: The date of an article doesn't make it false. There are 152 references in the ] "featured article" and about 50 of them are 1999 or earlier. That is one third of the references. Would you advocate for their removal? ] (]) 15:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

::: I am pretty much one who "embraces the idea of an encyclopedia that includes rather than deletes." Speaking in principle here, and not just about this subject, the age of the references is immaterial unless other newer references show that the previous ones are outdated and wrong. IOW using one V & RS to properly determine the quality (or now only "former" quality) of another V & RS. That way it isn't editorial inclinations or POV that makes the decision based only on the age of the reference. Some very old references can still be of value. It just depends on the subject and what the reference is used for. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 15:39, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

::::Well I think that the update on QW shows that it is out dated, thus it is no longer correct or notable. I also believe that some older articles can be included as long as there is no new information showing that the information is incorrect. --]] 17:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::Another thing I would like to ask Anthon, why is this so important to you? --]] 17:39, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree that the Pharmaceutical article appears to be a neutral exchange of information intended for pharmacists as a review of the web sites that concern them. Anytime I use a reference, I work hard to leave the reader with the 'intent' that the author was trying to convey. I think this article was trying to convey QW in as much a neutral light as possible. Yes, he states that there are limitations, but if you notice, he is not saying the site was bad - only that it could be better "if". Having said that, I see no reason why the article cannot be used. I see no reason why the list of limitations that he noted can't be integrated into the QW article as these are verifiable facts/opinions about the site... good or bad, every site has them. If we were writing about the chiroweb site, we would expect someone to note that it was written by chiropractors... and they would be correct, good or bad. The trick is to make sure that we don't write it in such a way that it looks as though we think that is good or bad. Leave that to the reader to decide. It doesn't matter whether you or I think Stephen Barrett writing all the articles is good or not. To some, that is great, to other's it's not. We just state that he does.

As far as 'out of date'.. if the site has improved since then.. and we have verifiable information that says so, then it would be essential that we quote that source as well. Then decide whether the two POVs are worth including.. if not drop them out altogether through consensus.

There is a lot more to this, but rather than telling things that you probably already know, let me know if I've answered any of your concerns.
-- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 21:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks Dematt, I think that is an excellent way to look at things. --]] 22:37, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

:: Crohnie, I think I've mentioned this to you before, and I'll say it again, Dematt is worth listening to. He balances things in a good way, which is the NPOV way. Thanks Dematt. (Travelling again. Why don't friend's PCs save my password?...;-) -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 03:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

::::I agree, Dematt has been helpful to me in many ways. I will always listen to what he has to say as he says it because he actually cares. --]] 11:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::PS:I think your friend's computer probably has cookies blocked. I have this problem sometime when I use my son's computer! :) --]] 12:01, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

==Oh my goodness!==
Happened to be editing and noticed -- one of the nicest wiki-things that's happened to me in a long time! You are too kind! Or, I should say, takes one to know one. ;-) Happy New Year, btw! I'm glad you stayed on WP, too; it's got some major problems, but (a) fighting the good fight and (b) picking one's battles, and of course (c) trying not to see it as a "fight" at all, can make a big difference. Thanks man! cheers, ]<sup>(])</sup> 04:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The pleasure has been all mine. I'm sorry I don't have the time to follow through on some of our discussions sometimes, but it is usually because you have already said everything better than I could. If you would ever like to hear my opinion, drop a note here and I will take a look. I can't promise you that I will agree all the time, but I also know that is not what you are looking for. Don't forget the 'happy' in Happy editing! -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 05:08, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

===Apology===
Dematt you have still not apologised to me for running off an erroneously claiming I had broken the 3 revert rule. As a simple matter of courtesy and as a demonstration of good faith I hope you can bring yourself to make the apology. I am relaxed about this and realise mistakes happen. I make them to, but an apology would show what you are made of.] (]) 09:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

:Hi Mccready, I'm thinking you might be mistaking me for someone else. I don't think I have ever accused anyone of violating the 3RR rule. You must be thinking of Hughgr . ---- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 16:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

If it was Hugh I apologise to you. All you chiros look the same to me :-) ] (]) 08:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

:I accept the apology and appreciate the compliment, but I think Hughgr is probably much better looking ;-) -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 18:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

==Question==
Hi Dematt: I notice that the Pseudoscience category is not on the Chiropractic page. I wondering how you were able to keep it off that page and whether you consider it appropriate on the homeopathy page? Thanks. ] (]) 03:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Anthon, keep an eye out here while I look into your question.. more later. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 18:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

: Hi, I have no intention to rush you. Just meant to be a reminder just in case you forgot. Thanks again. ] (]) 15:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Just butting in here and giving my own POV on that one. I think it would be improper to apply the label (and category) to the Chiropractic article as a whole. It is applied, even by chiropractic V & RS, to certain aspects of chiropractic, and I am for doing that, but not the whole profession. It just happens to be an unfortunate fact that the legal and philosophical foundation of the profession (]) is also correctly considered a pseudoscientific belief, but chiropractic is far more and too complex a matter to glibly label it all "pseudoscience", although many, including myself, might in a weak moment do it because VS is so all-pervasive in the subject in every way. It's not totally fair to many chiros who are diligent, intelligent, honest, and are helping people as best they can.

Here is one chiropractic source on the subject:
*
:Joseph C. Keating, Jr, PhD, professor at the Los Angeles College of Chiropractic and notable historian of chiropractic, warns of pseudoscientific notions that still persist in the mindsets of some chiropractors

This is also interesting and no doubt painful reading for many chiropractors, whether they subscribe to VS or not.

BTW Anthon01, you should know that I hold Dematt up on a pedestal as a model Wikipedian and have great respect for him. He has taught me many things, including to show more respect for chiropractors. He has not lived in vain! -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 17:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

:Wow. I am learning a lot today. Forgive me but I have often found your comments to be extremely dismissive of alt-med to an extreme. You are certainly seeming more balance in your view. But regarding your editing behavior on chiropratic, is it based on policy influenced by your POV or policy? ] (]) 17:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

:: When I first came here and didn't know or understand policies, it was definitely based on my POV and what I saw as a chance to get the story right, including making sure the article told the whole story about chiropractic, both positive and negative. Since then I have learned much more about policies and the wisdom of NPOV as a tool to write a real encyclopedia. The subject has been a hobby of mine for many years and I have studied it, participated and lurked on chiropractic discussion groups, and know lots about it. I know so much that I have even been encouraged by MDs, PhDs, and DCs, to write a textbook. I have written over 200 pages, but now I don't dare publish because of threats to myself and my family. Regarding editing, I don't think any of us can say we are to some degree totally free of our own POV when editing, but I try to subordinate my POV under NPOV, which largely involves not being deletionist towards opposing POV. I was thrilled when Dematt arrived here and showed a lightning learning curve regarding NPOV and collaboration. That's when the chiropractic article really took off in many ways. Before that it was a constant battleground and stalemates were the order of the day with little article development. POV warriors ruled and chiropractors held the article hostage by refusing to allow any criticism, even when well-referenced. I really enjoyed just sitting back and watching Dematt work. He didn't exhibit the defensiveness so common (understandably so!) to members of a profession that has always been held "outside", and to some degree tried to stay outside. He has been a model for many of us who have come to respect him as a Wikipedian, chiropractor, and person. I wish he would become an admin. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 17:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
:::I would vote in a heartbeat for Dematt to be an administrator. This is a good hearted person who cares about people, he helped me a lot in the past too. Dematt, go for it, become an administrator, you are the kind of administrator I think is really needed! --]] 16:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I deserve all that, I'm no different than the rest of you. Anthon01, I have been watching the debate, so sorry for the slow response, but the answer to your question is not simple. As far as I am concerned, pseudoscience is a term used to motivate theorists to prove what they are saying. IOWs, scientists can't do all the work, they need the people who make the statement to do the leg work to prove that what they are saying is reasonable, because no-one wants to be labeled a pseudoscience and after all, if the one who comes up with the idea can't prove it, then who can. Now once a test has been developed and performed, the 'scientific community' will begin to evaluate the quality of the testing. This is what peer review is all about. Generally, as long as it adds to the knowledgebase, then we are all moving another step in the right direction. If it doesn't, the scientific community generally will ignore the information as well as the person that made the statement. My personal opinion is that the word pseudoscience should be used extremely sparingly, but thank goodness my opinion doesn't count at wikipedia. We are bound to V and RS and NPOV.

More later, I am hamstrung by time limits... ---- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 17:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

== The Chiropractic Theories: A Textbook of Scientific Research, By Robert A. Leach ==

FYI

* - By Robert A. Leach

-- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 06:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I bought that one;-) Let's see where it takes us. ---- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 17:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


== reliability of CZ articles ==

Your edit summary was: According to your edit summary, it seems like you fixed the reference but you deleted it. Deleting a reference becasue you think it is not formatted the way you like it is not a reason to completely delete the reference. The other references I added are formatted the same way but you did not delete them too. Please explain your edit or fix the reference. Though, I see nothing wrong with the reference. Take a look at closer look at the other formatted refs I added. I formatted the refs the same way. According to what Misplaced Pages policy you can delete a reference(s) becuase you think it was not formatted the way you like it. Your edit does not make any sense. ] ] 18:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

;formatted reference
{{Reflist}}
<ref name="Larry Sanger">
{{cite news
|last=Citizendium community
|first=
|title=Chiropractic — Chiropractic approach to healthcare
|url=http://en.citizendium.org/Chiropractic#Chiropractic_approach_to_healthcare
|date=
|work=
|publisher=]
|accessdate=2008-02-02
|quote=}}</ref>

Hi QuackGuru, sorry I didn't explain myself well. What I meant was; Larry Sanger did not write that, we did and it was imported to CZ where I kept it. I don't think giving Larry Sanger credit for all of Citizendium is the way to do it, but I don't know how to fix it. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 02:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
:Fixed. ] ] 02:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
:Is CZ articles reliable to use as references on Misplaced Pages? See ] policy. ] ] 03:21, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
<references/>
::Hi QG, this is difficult for me to answer because I was partially responsible for editing the article on CZ. However, I can tell you that it was co-authored by two other reliable experts in their fields, neurophysiology and medicine. But, while one of my hopes is that CZ will be a verifiable and reliable source for wikipedia purposes, I think the community should use their collective judgement and make this decision carefully. I will abide by whatever decision is made. ---- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 06:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
:::This "approved article" has undergone a form of peer-review by credentialed topic experts. This confirms it is ]. Thanks. ] ] 07:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
:::Note: The reference template is used in part for first and last names. The ref name will be Citizendium community. ] ] 19:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
:::I changed it back per comment on a noticeboard. ] ] 05:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

== I have had respect for you but now ==

The way you helped me during my time of worrying was special to me. I gained great respect for you during our conversations and all you help and advice.

Well I just read the top of your user page of who you are and I have to say, my respect for you has grown. You are a beautiful person, keep up with those children you have. You are indeed a very special person in your own right. I just want to let you know that. I had only one child, did as many things humanly possible to help him become a wonderful adult, and I think I succeeded, I was a stay at home mom to raise him.

He hasn't set up the appointment with the surgeon yet, though I keep reminding him that even though he sees a surgeon, not all surgeon carry a knife in their back pocket. (my surgeon for my first surgery tried everything he could think of before cutting into me.) You take care and remember that there are people who appreciate all that you try to do, me being one of them. Thanks again, --]] 13:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks Crohnie, that means more than you think - more than a Barnstar! :-) Thank you. I also got your email and will reply ASAP! -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 04:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

==AfD nomination of Chiropractic care: Research and Criticism==
]An article that you have been involved in editing, ], has been listed for ]. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:adw --> -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 19:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

== Request for your opinion ==

Hi Dematt, I saw this post at the chiropratic article talk page Since you are aware of things would you let me know more about this kind of pain treatment? Is this something viable for the situations you are aware of? I would appreciate your input about this. It of course caught my attentions, feel free to do it via email. Thanks again, --]] 13:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks for your explanation on my talk page and the email explanation, greatly appreciated. Now kind of on a different note, other than family experiences I don't know much about Chiropractor practices. I just realized that with all the recent edits to the article I need to take the time to reread the article. The lead is much better than it was; which the only part I have gotten to. I will reread it and see if it now is balanced better for the average reader to understand the pros and cons of a chiropractor. Thanks again, --]] 15:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

== Vaccination ==

Excellent work on the vaccination section of the chiropractic article. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 15:14, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
:Thanks, you know me, if we're gonna do this, at least lets get it right :-) Appreciate your staying involved here to! -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 15:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

== Are you OK ==

Dematt, haven't seen you around these parts in awhile, hope everything is going well... Can't wait to say ]! ] (]) 19:23, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

== Welcome back! ==

Hi, Dematt! I'd noticed you'd been away for a long time. It's good to see you back!! I just started editing ] again. We'll see if I have time to keep it up. The volume of discussion at that page can be hard to keep up with. <span style="color:Red; font-size:2.5em;">☺</span> ] (]) 09:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

== Mobilization vs. Manipulation Risk ==
Hi Dematt. I agree with you on what the research says, however I am having a hard time tracking that down. Do you know of any particular sources that state that fact?] (]) 06:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

: I'm curious too. I've read that mobilization was somewhat (never absolute!) safer than manipulation, and thus our courses (basic education and post-grad) in manual therapy always included extra precautions regarding this point. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 14:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

::I'll see what I can dig up. Most of what I pulled up was two years ago when Fyslee and I were working that section. I agree that the risk can be minimized further by using mobilization, but I think we all agree here that anything that stretches a 'susceptible' patient's vertebral artery is risky. From what I am reading recently (i.e. Task Force), it's not so much that spinal manipulation is the cause, but it is not knowing that the neck pain is the result of a dissection in the artery. I have heard opinion that repeated manipulations might eventually cause a dissection, but haven't seen anything conclusive (or even hypothesizing for that matter) in actual research. To claim such to be truth at this point would be misleading and I guess what they call fear mongering. I assume we will see some results in the next decade as we study it more. Of course the other fact also remains - that there are risks with the alternative treatments. So it becomes a risk/benefit issue - especially with real live people who are going to do something to relieve pain. In that case, both manipulation and mobilization are reasonable alternatives provided a proper assessment and diagnosis is made. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 05:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
:::It's also worth noting that DCs commonly use not only SMT, but mobs and massage (myofascial techniques) as well. It seems like certain editors are trying to portray that all DCs will always use HVLA manips to deal with mechanical neck pain. Incorrect. Nor is that part of patient-centered care; which is the official position of the MAINSTREAM of the chiropractic profession. I can totally see how a mob held at end range can potentially occlude a structural deficient VA. Hopefully Bolton et al's research on the velocimeter to screen for VA damage will pay dividents for ALL manipulative clinicians (not just chiropractors).{{unsigned|CorticoSpinal}}

Think of it this way. The current state of research is that patients enter our offices complaining of neck pain and headaches. If the cause of those symptoms is dissection of the vertebral or carotid, then any movment of the head is contraindicated - whether by manipulation, mobilization, coughing, sneezing, picking up the family pet, turning to look out the rear window of your car, etc.. This is all that anyone can reliably say. The assertion that manipulation 'causes' stroke - even 'because of the multiple minor "traumas" that it is "supposed" to cause' is purely speculation at this point. It is okay to speculate, but it would be unscientific to create policy, or an article, based on speculation. ---- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 13:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

== NPOVing Chiropractic ==

Welcome back, Dematt. I've made some changes to some of the sections that have been railroaded in the main article without proper consensus, but rather than blanket revert I have begun chipping away at either puff citations, misattribution and adding vital sources that present an alternative argument. Please feel free to investigate these changes and make any additions, corrections, reversions as you see fit. I'm asking you specifically because it seems like you've proven yourself to be quite adept at finding that middle ground and have the respect of skeptics. ] (]) 23:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

:FYI I have added you as an involved party at the cabal mediation dispute regarding chiropractic. If you don't wish to partake in the settings then I can delete your name. Cheers. ] (]) 04:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, thanks for that! ;-) I'll take a look a little later. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 05:00, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

::Thanks for coming back, Dematt! Your wisdom, collaborative skills and humor are appreciated.--] <sup>''<font face="Calibri" color="006400">(])''</font></sup> 15:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

== Question ==

Would you mind filling me in on all this talk about "traps". It all looks a bit cryptic to me. Best, ] (]) 11:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

:Look, ''is'' there something going on? If people aren't playing fair I'd be quite happy to call them up on it, regardless of who it is. ] (]) 16:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

::Nah, after a good night's sleep and looking over the diffs, I think I got disoriented and turned around. I should have just gone to bed;-) But it is good to know I can always use your help! -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 17:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

:::OK, thanks for the email as well. ] (]) 18:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

== June 2008 ==

] Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Although everyone is welcome to make constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages, at least one of your recent edits{{#if:Chiropractic|, such as the one you made to ],}} did not appear to be constructive and has been ] or removed. Please use ] for any test edits you would like to make, and take a look at the ] to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|Thank you.}}<!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --> ] 17:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

:Please tell me you're kidding, QuackGuru. ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 18:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

::Hi MastCell. Thanks for keeping an eye out. Hopefully, you can see that I have removed a section that I consider ] inaccurrate that was added last month against consensus. Rather than replace it with the section that was a consensus version from last year, I just took the whole thing out until we can work it out on the talk page. Being that it is pretty much a violation of NPOV and SYN and OR, I think it is better that we don't have that section up for the general public. I am sure we will be able to work something out, but it may take awhile. I don't think anyone will miss it and I don't think anyone else will be concerned as they know we are working on it. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 19:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

:::The external observers agreed with the NPOV improvements and commented at the RFC on the talk page. ] 19:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

:::Please do not gratuitously remove content from Misplaced Pages, as you did to the ] page. You do not have consensus for your edit. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. ] 19:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

== Please reconsider major deletion from Chiropractic ==

I saw with some disappointment that a major chunk of ] was removed without discussion, much less consensus. Can you please reconsider that action? I followed up at ]. Thanks. ] (]) 20:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I am just as surprised that you did not support my removal of material that was placed during an edit war without consensus because there were NPOV issues and SYN issues. Do you really think I intend to leave this article without a science section that you and I did not consider NPOV? If you would like to pull a section that you think is not NPOV, by all means please do, I will back you up. Don't you think it is about time we pulled together? -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 21:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: I like the idea of pulling together, and I don't think we're that far apart about content. But in this particular case I was leery about the procedure. I didn't think you intended to leave the article without a science section, but as a practical matter I expected that if the deletion had stuck there would have been a long period without a science section, which would have been a real minus. Anyway, it's better to have discussion before major changes like that. It's also much more work, alas; but I don't see any way around the work. ] (]) 03:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: In retrospect, I guess I can't blame you. I was working in a vacuum and just thought everyone would follow my logic. I see now that I probably wasn't clear in my concerns. Part of my problem is that I don't have large blocks of time to clearly write everything I am thinking or reading. For now I'll just place tags in the text on the article page and we can work till we get it right. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 11:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

::::There was a RFC on the NPOV changes. The external observers supported the improvements. ] 21:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:Dematt wrote in part: I am not reverting anyone's edits. You did revert my edit. ] 21:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

== No consensus ==

Dematt, there was no consensus for . Please consider self reverting. ] 17:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

:Hi QuackGuru, that is the reason for the template. It draws attention to a problem so that we will concentrate on it till we reach consensus, especially since you added that section before we reached consensus and then have edit warred to keep it in, ultimately resulting in the article being protected twice and the blocking of CorticoSpinal, who was a hard working editor. If you would consider reverting that section that you added without consensus, there would be no need for those templates. That would be appreciated. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 19:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

::There was a RFC and the external observers supported the NPOV improvements. There was no consensus for . ] 19:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

:::Which external observers were those? -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 19:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

::::Please review the RFC in which the external observers commented on the chiropractic talk page about the improvements. Do you support the RFC. Do you think you have consensus for ] 19:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: Which RfC? Please show me where I need consensus to tag an article.-- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 20:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::: QuackGuru, it really makes no difference in the long run what external observers say, IF the regular editors of the article don't support it. If their arguments are convincing and the regular editors decide to follow the good advice, then great. But if the regulars aren't convinced, then external observers have no trump card in the situation, and you can just as well stop referring to them. Consensus is what rules the day, and it applies ONLY to the regular editors. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 05:56, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

== your edit does not match your edit summary ==

Dematt wrote in his edit summary:

However, more editors prefer draft 7. See ]. Draft 3 was never approved by most editors. ] 17:20, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I explained the NPOV changed on ]. However, Dematt continues to add the disputed long end run of boring WHO quotes and information that is unreferenced. ] 18:50, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I have further explained the reasons for using draft 7. This edit by Dematt added the disputed WHO quotes again. Misplaced Pages is not a place to promote suggestions to become world wide standards. ] 20:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I have already explained the valid reasons with specifics for starting with . Please consider that my editing practices may be NPOV. ] 21:05, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Dematt wrote: "QuackGuru, when you are ready to talk specifics, let me know, otherwise all I see is that wastes valuable time for all of us, gets good editors blocked and pits good editors against each other. Please consider that your editing practices may be disruptive." However, I have explained specifically why draft 7 is better. . ] 00:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Who is QuackGuru talking to here? For the record, draft 3 was the most supported version when it was inserted, and as such, the edit summary did match the edit. ] (]) 05:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks, DigitalC, sometimes I feel like I'm talking into a large black hole. The words get stretched and distorted into anything he wants. I do hope others see through this. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 02:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:: Yes, we do, but I just don't have the time or energy to deal with it. I feel with you. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 06:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

== 3RR ==

] You currently appear to be engaged in an ]{{#if:Chiropractic|&#32; according to the reverts you have made on ]}}. Note that the ] prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the ]. If you continue, '''you may be ] from editing'''. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a ] among editors. If necessary, pursue ]. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|}}<!-- Template:uw-3rr --> ] 20:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

:You've left me no choice. Please take me to whatever mediation you would like. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 20:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

::Dematt wrote in his edit summary: Ready for what? I am confused by your edit summary. Please discuss. ] 20:49, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

::I think you have made four reverts today in a very short period of time (under 24 hours). The WHO quotes were deleted but you have added them in again.
::Previous version without the WHO quotes.
::Revert 1
::Revert 2
::Revert 3
::Revert 4
::Please consider reverting your controversial edit. ] 21:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
::Multiple editors have problems or concerns with draft #3 in mainspace. There are still with draft #3. ] 23:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

== re Chiro ==

Not a problem, I've got it watched :-) ] (]) 21:44, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

== Activator technique ==

Hiya, Dematt. I just increased the article ] from a short stub to a very short article, based on one ref. Presuming that you have some familiarity with the subject, would you please read it over and see if I made any glaring errors? Thanks. (I also want to get "activator" mentioned at least once in the ] article.) <span style="color:Green; font-size:2.2em;">☺</span> ] (]) 01:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

:Definitely an improvement! I've never used the technique myself, but am very aware of its wide use among chiropractors, particularly in younger and older patients whose red and yellow flags require less aggressive techniques. I see no reason why we shouldn't be able to mention it in the treatments section. Now that you say that, we need to make sure we are mentioning others as well (I'm thinking James Cox's Flexion-Distraction particularly). -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 17:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!

At ], in the education section you said ''"I've taken a look at the sources and am concerned that we have again reached conclusions that were not reached by the sources. IOWs, we have created a little WP:SYN. The juxtapositioning of the text seems as if we are casting a negative light on something that we should presenting NPOV."'' Eubulides asked you which phrases you were talking about, and I'm not sure you ever answered. If you think this problem is still present in the current drafts, would you please elaborate, or if you already have, then point me to the part of the talk page where you explain it? If you quote a unique phrase from a talk page comment I can find it by searching for it using control-F on my browser. <span style="color:Purple; font-size:1.8em;">☺</span> ] (]) 22:06, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

:I stopped that thread when realized that we were spreading ourselves too thin (or maybe it was just me ;). My major concern is still that we are equating chiropractic care with SMT research. As long as we are on the chiropractic page, it will be next to impossible to weight it properly because we will *''have''* to discuss all the things that chiropractors do. This will be difficult because we will have to discuss the efficacy of the doctor patient relationship, the efficacy of acupuncture, the efficacy of ice an heat, massage, activator, flexion distraction, etc., etc.. The article will get too long and boring. These things need to be in their own sections of their own respective articles, not on the chiropractic page. The only thing that really makes sense is to only include those things that explicitly talk about chiropractic care per ]

<blockquote>
:Material published by reliable sources can inadvertently be put together in a way that constitutes original research. Synthesizing material occurs when an editor comes to a conclusion by putting together different sources. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or '''if the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research.''' Summarizing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis; it is good editing. Best practice is to write Misplaced Pages articles by taking claims made by different reliable sources about a subject and putting those claims in our own words on an article page, with each claim attributable to a source that makes that claim explicitly.
</blockquote>

:IOWs chiropractic is more than SMT and we can't make them look equivalent, even if our intentions are good. We also have to be careful how we put our sentences together. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 03:16, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

::Okay. look at it this way; Let's say that we create an article about Medicine and only examine Vioxx as a treatment. Obviously, no matter how we preface it, patch it up, or try to make it neutral the end result will be that Medicine kills people, because Vioxx killed people. The truth is that Medicine saves lives. The proper way to examine medicine would be to look at studies that compared the world without Medicine and then the world with Medicine, etc., etc., if those studies exist. If they don't, then we have no business guessing about it - that would be OR or SYN. There are too many factors to leave it to one drug that they use to treat one condition. That is what we are doing with chiropractic. Chiropractic care is not SMT. We are synthesizing sentences together to make it look that way. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 12:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
==Barnstar==
Dematt, thanks for the barnstar! Its always nice to know that ones efforts are appreciated, and I think we do work hard over at ]. Cheers, ] (]) 04:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

== Relevance to chiropractic ==

A RS for the VS article:

Relevance to chiropractic

Chiropractors treat conditions of a neuromusculoskeletal and non-neuromusculoskeletal nature . The majority of conditions treated by chiropractors are neuromusculoskeletal . Much controversy exists about the role of chiropractic in the management of the non-neuromusculoskeletal conditions . These non-neuromusculoskeletal conditions are sometimes referred to as "type O" conditions and the neuromusculoskeletal conditions are sometimes referred to as "type M" conditions. To justify the relevance of the management of the "type O" condition, the chiropractic profession has usually cited the presence of the somatovisceral and viscerosomatic reflexes as being integral to both the cause and potentially the management of the "type O" disorder . Despite this dependence on the existence of these reflexes to justify a philosophical approach to management, little evidence exists to warrant the continued support of this justification.

The literature supports the existence of somatovisceral and viscerosomatic reflexes , but there is little or no evidence to support the notion that the spinal derangements (often referred to as subluxations by chiropractors) can cause prolonged aberrant discharge of these reflexes. Equally unsupported in the literature is the notion that the prolonged activation of these reflexes will manifest into pathological state of tissues, and most relevantly, that the application of spinal manipulative therapy can alter the prolonged reflex discharge or be associated with a reversal of the pathological degeneration of the affected reflexes or tissues . The evidence that has been amassed is largely anecdotal or case report based and it has attracted much intra disciplinary debate because of its frequent association with certain approaches to management (largely described as being traditional or "philosophical" in nature).

-- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 06:21, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

:Yes, that is a good VS! It's conclusions concern more of the "supraspinal" (brain stem and above) effects of stress and considers that chiropractors should look at whether the effects that they are claiming from their adjustments are more related to affects on the higher centers.... that sounds like BJ stuff :-) But this is a mainstream way to look at old paradigms. Maybe the research is ready to take the next step. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 12:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

:: The authors are definitely expressing a non-traditional and non-philosophical POV, and are looking at what the hard evidence (to date of course) says. Are you familiar with Nansel and Szlazak's 1995 paper on somatovisceral effects?

::* Nansel D, Szlazak M. "Somatic dysfunction and the phenomenon of visceral disease simulation: a probable explanation for the apparent effectiveness of somatic therapy in patients presumed to be suffering from true visceral disease." ''J Manipulative Physiol Ther.'' 1995; 18:379-97.

::I have a paper copy of it somewhere and it's rather eye-opening. I'm surprised they weren't tarred and feathered at the time, but instead they were ignored. The climate in 1995 just wasn't ready to understand or accept scientific research that so markedly undermined the basic foundation of the profession. If I can find it, maybe I should send it to you. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 14:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

:::Oh yes, I'm familiar with it, in fact you were the one that turned me on to it in 2006 :-) I think it plays a huge role in what chiropractors do, but that's just me. It probably also plays a role in why some surgeries fail as well; that the symptoms were somatic referred all along. I think any list of explanations of what the possible effects of adjustment are would have to include this Nansel concept. The article from Chiro and Osteo seems to be suggesting that chiropractors evaluate the effects on the already mainstream documented stress reaction that affects health. I remember Gareth suggesting that two years ago. We are so ahead of the curve ;-) -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 14:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

:::: I miss ]...! -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 15:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

::::: Me, too. He will answer your emails and I know for a fact that he would love to hear from you. We talk about the good ole' days and your name always comes up! -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 15:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

== Citizendium ==

This sentence in the chiropractic lead needs to be corrected:

"In the health sciences, subluxation always means that there is a physical dislocation such that the part is completely out of place."

"Completely" is misleading, since a medical ] is a partial dislocation, IOW partially out of place. The make it clear that the medical and chiropractic definitions are different, since a medical subluxation is always visible on x-rays, while a VS isn't necessarily visible. In fact it isn't necessarily even objectively verifiable. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 17:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
::Hehe, you know that wasn't my choice of words! I has a hard enough time representing the chiropractic part. Experts are just as awnry as we common folk ;-) -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 17:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
::: Indeed. It isn't always smooth sailing "over there". You shouldn't get any flack for improving that part. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 00:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
:::: I can improve it on the draft page, but it won't show up in the approved version until we get it re-approved.... -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 00:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
::::: I see. Well, go for it. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 00:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

(In the health sciences, a subluxation is defined as a much more significant structural displacement and therefore only includes those that are visible on static imaging studies, whereas the chiropractic definition includes stages that may not show any imaging abnormalities.)
::How's that... you know, this would be easier if... -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 01:30, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

:

* "(In the health sciences, subluxation ''always'' means that there is a physical dislocation such that the part is completely out of place. In chiropractic subluxations, this is ''almost never'' the case...)"

My suggested revision:

* "(In the health sciences, anatomical subluxations are so significant structural displacements of joint surfaces that they are always visible on X-rays,<ref name="WHO_guidelines">, p. 4, including footnote</ref> but without the joint surfaces ever totally losing contact with each other. In chiropractic, vertebral subluxations are generally not significant enough to be visible on X-rays....)"<ref name="WHO_guidelines"/>
-- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 06:45, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

:
*(In the health sciences, a subluxation is defined as a much more significant structural displacement and therefore only includes those that are visible on static imaging studies, whereas the chiropractic definition includes stages that may not show any imaging abnormalities.)

However, your suggested version gives the impression that subluxations are not ever visible on xray, which would still be misleading, only in the other direction. For instance, a chiropractor would consider MRI findings of atrophy of the multifidus as a sign of an early stage of subluxation. Also, as the joint begins to show loss of space and sclerotic changes, these are signs of subluxation degeneration (or medical arthritis). Of course, osteophytes are signs of advanced subluxation degeneration. The feature of subluxation that you are concerned about, and that medical subluxation does not include, is the theoretical neurological consequences that chiropractors claim affect health occurring at any of the stages of subluxation degeneration. Remember, there are chiropractors that doubt these effects exist as well. I'm not sure that any of our definitions handle this well. Especially for the "subluxations" that are not visible on xray or MRI. It would be nice if we could clear all this up on our ] article. -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 01:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Refs:
{{Reflist}}

== Chiropractic confusion ==

I am dropping a line because I am a bit confused about the dispute over mentioning SMT at the chiropractic article. I saw Xavex's suggestion and it seems to make sense. Why not treat the article like any other medical practice topic? For example, having a modest section about therapeutic exercise in an article about physical therapy is very unlikely to be controversial, because it is one of the principal modes of treatment. Similarly, I cannot imagine a section about prescription drugs or radiological diagnostics being a problem in an article about general practice medicine. What makes chiropractic distinct in this regard? Why would it be inappropriate to briefly provide an overview of its principal treatment method? So long as its a neutral summary of the subtopic, and treated a distinct subtopic, where would the problem lie? I'm just trying to understand the current disagreement on that count, as while the approach being used to include SMT information seems incorrect, the general point that it is an appropriate subtopic for the article seems valid. Thanks for you time and help in understanding this situation! ] (]) 00:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
:Hi Vassyana, thanks for taking a look. It's good to know you're keeping an eye out. I'm thinking that we ''are'' trying to treat it like other medical practice articles. If we look at ] it doesn't include a section on the research base of ]s and ] doesn't include a section on ]s. I actually used that in my consideration of how to handle this issue.

:The other issue is that, while SMT is something that chiropractors use, the procedure itself is not all they do. They combine it with exercise, massage, ice/heat, ergonomics, physical therapy, advice, assurance and re-assurance. Some patients don't get any SMT. If we present SMT as being equivolent to chiropractic care in general (SMT = chiropractic), we are misrepresenting chiropractic because SMT has limitations by itself. Just like all healthcare professionals, chiropractors have different treatment options and protocols depending on the case that presents. We lose this when we only present one modality for the reader because that is all they are going to learn about. Of course the other option is to include all the treatment modalities so that we are providing the proper weight to each and the end result should look about the same, but there are studies that evaluate the total chiropractic care model so we can use them instead. For instance, the UK Beam Trial studied spinal manipulation in the chiropractor/osteopath/physical therapy office environment where the other factors were part of the care model. The SMT studies can be used on the ] article; exercises on ]; and ], ], ] on their respective articles where we can discuss each of them totally and NPOV linking them from our brief review of each on chiropractic. I'm thinking that this is the instance that ] was meant to help us decide.
:-- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 02:38, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
::Hmmm. What about a brief (paragraph long) subsection for SMT? It could open up that it's a very common treatment among chiropractors and that it is the practice most strongly associated with them. It could follow up that the principal practitioners of the treatment are chiropractic doctors. Follow that up with a couple of sentences providing a simple overview of SMT. (Answering the basic question of "what is it?") Use a {{tl|seealso}} or {{tl|main}} link at the top of the para. I'm sure all of those types of statements could be easily source to high quality references without great difficulty. I think that could avoid original research, clearly explain its relevance, address its prominence in the public mind and provide a brief neutral summary without providing an inaccurate picture of chiropractic by muddling the medical practice with the broader treatment. Do you think that would be doable? Do you think that would still be problematic? I'm just brainstorming and thinking this out. ] (]) 03:05, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

:::That is very close to what I was thinking. Our problem becomes when we try to dissect the research. So let me ask, are you thinking that it would include anything like . -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 03:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

:::: Dematt is spot-on with his analysis here, but I'd like to explain also why we have a SYN violation.

:::: First, some background: SMT is a procedure which is performed by any number of practitioners. Chiropractors certainly are the most common practitioners to employ SMT; however you will also find PTs, DOs, and other healthcare professionals performing such procedures. Chiropractors, by way of education, are arguably the most qualified to perform SMT. Adjusting vertebrae is something they spend 4 years focused on learning. Chiropractic techniques for adjusting vertebrae are numerous and precise, and the methods which chiropractors use to adjust the spine are different from manipulations performed by other practitioners. In addition to varying techniques, the diagnosis which leads a chiropractor to perform a specific adjustment on a patient is wholly different from a PT, DO, etc. And - some may argue - that the ''intent'' behind a chiropractic adjustment is disparate from other practitioners performing their versions of SMT. With these key differences, in mind, allow me to continue...

:::: In the early 1990s, the RAND Corporation completed a study entitled, "The Appropriateness of Spinal Manipulation for Low-Back Pain", which concluded positively for SMT. When chiropractors jumped on those conclusions to proclaim things such as "Chiropractic works!", the chiropractors were in turn jumped on by the researchers who said that these studies were not about chiropractic specifically, but rather SMT and that chiropractors were in effect misusing these studies. Dr. Paul Shekelle of RAND released this statement:
::::: ''"...we have become aware of numerous instances where our results have been seriously misrepresented by chiropractors writing for their local paper or writing letters to the editor....RAND's studies were about spinal manipulation, not chiropractic... Comparative efficacy of chiropractic and other treatments was not explicitly dealt with."''
:::: Another tells us the following:
::::: ''"The evidence is insufficient to conclude that benefits of manipulation vary according to the profession of the manipulator (chiropractor vs. other clinician trained in manipulation)..."''
:::: What I am trying to establish here for you, Vassyana, is though chiropractors employ their specialized form of SMT, in terms of research, chiropractic SMT is not 1:1 with SMT as performed by other practitioners. This means that conclusions from general SMT efficacy or safety studies (as performed by non-chirorpactors) cannot just be blindly correlated to the efficacy or safety of chiropractic SMT.
:::: That said, those in favor of inclusion of general SMT cite chiropractic researchers such as who stated:
::::: ''"We agree that many of the randomized trials we described were on spinal manipulation rather than specifically on chiropractic manipulation itself, but we believe that this is not a significant point. Chiropractors use all forms of manipulation. In the United States, more than 90% of all spinal manipulation services are provided by chiropractors, and research on spinal manipulation, like that on any other treatment method, is equally of value regardless of the practitioner providing it."''
:::: Editors in favor of inclusion of general SMT studies are basing their rationale on Haldeman, stating that by presenting general SMT studies to show chiropractic's efficacy or safety, we are merely following in the footsteps of researchers such as Haldeman & Meeker. In my opinion, herein lies the SYN violation.

:::: First, please note that Haldeman states, "...many of the the randomized trials '''we''' described were on spinal manipulation rather than specifically on chiropractic manipulation itself..." I emphasized "we" because I think it should be made clear that Haldeman & Meeker are only referring to the specific studies they reviewed and are not making a blanket statement about all general SMT studies.

:::: Second, lets label Haldeman & Meeker as "Source A". And then let's say we have some other review of general SMT research (as performed by a mix of professionals... DOs, PTs, DCs, etc). Let's call this other review "Source B". While Source B is of high quality and published in very reputable journal, it does not in any way make any specific conclusions about chiropractic SMT; rather its conclusions only deal with general SMT. In fact, other than stating that the reviewers looked at some chiropractic adjustments in their research, the review itself makes no other mention of "chiropractic". Now then, editors in favor of inclusion of Source B are justifying it by citing the rationale in Source A - that the difference between general SMT and chiropractic adjustments isn't significant in terms of research. So now we have the rationale of Source A justifying the inclusion of Source B leading the reader to a conclusion based on original research. Let's say that Source B concluded that SMT is ineffective for treating ]. Using the rationale of Source A, some editors want to go a step further and conclude that chiropractic is therefore ineffective for treating ]. We'll call this "Conclusion C", a conclusion which is unsourced and can only be synthesized by combining the rationale of Source A with the findings of Source B. Hence, we have the classic ] scenario: A and B, so therefore C.

:::: Now some of the editors in favor of inclusion are being slippery and stating that we are not directly stating that these general SMT efficacy and safety studies specifically apply to chiropractic. But I ask you, when the casual reader shows up at ] and sees a heading labeled "Scientific research" and a sub-header reading "Effectiveness" with an entry beginning, "The effectiveness of chiropractic treatment depends on the medical condition and the type of chiropractic treatment," are we really to expect that reader not to confound the evidence of general SMT with a conclusion specifically about chiropractic? I don't think so. The conclusion which every reader will come to will be based on original research - we, the editors, applying general SMT efficacy and safety studies to the efficacy and safety chiropractic specifically.

:::: Please bear in mind, that there is some general SMT research which is highly-to-slightly favorable to the usage of SMT for certain conditions. There is some research which is not favorable. I favor treating them all equally in that if they are not making conclusions about chiropractic specifically, they do not belong in the ] article. They would be much better suited to the ] article.

:::: Finally, please note that in addition to ], there is an article - albeit a bit rough - on ]. This article is specifically about chiropractic SMT. As Dematt mentions above, chiropractors also employ many other procedures other than spinal adjustments and many of those procedures have their own articles at Misplaced Pages. My thought is that much of the "Scientific research" into efficacy and safety should be handled on the procedure articles. Chiropractic is big topic. It is a profession which incorporates many procedures. There are studies out there which analyze the efficacy of the entire chiropractic clinical encounter, and I believe - good or bad - those kinds of studies would be perfect for the Chiropractic article. However, going into such detail about spinal adjustment efficacy on the Chiropractic article doesn't seem very efficient especially when we have a ] article in need of such content.

:::: In sum, I believe we should excise from ] any studies which don't focus on chiropractic specifically, but rather general SMT as performed by other practitioners. These studies are out of place here, and the manner in which they are being justified for inclusion violates ]. As an article about a profession, just as we wouldn't expect the article on ] to go into much detail on the safety and efficacy of ], I don't think ] should go into much detail on the safety and efficacy of any of their employed procedures either. A brief overview and a link to the specific procedure articles will suffice. And one final note, ] doesn't discuss safety or efficacy at all. It certainly isn't based on a lack of available research: , . This begs the question, why is Chiropractic being treated so differently? Is it that Dentisty lacks safety and efficacy sections or is it the other way around? -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 18:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::No specific evidence of WP:OR or WP:SYN has been presented. Edits like won't work on Misplaced Pages. ] 03:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::Chiropractors certainly are the most common practitioners to employ SMT. Therefore, SMT research is related to chiropractic. ] 19:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::: We are not speaking in generalities. We are speaking specifically in terms of the research. Are chiropractors the ones employing the SMT in the research? Sure, surgeons perform the most brain surgery, but what if there was a study on the efficacy of brain surgery as performed by monkeys. Would it be fair to use that research to describe the efficacy of surgeons merely because surgeons perform more brain surgery than monkeys do? -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 19:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

== Mainspace ==

I saw you mention on ] that you're not allowed to edit in mainspace. I must have missed something. Why is that? ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 19:11, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

:Hi MastCell, thanks for asking! I'm not banned or blocked from editing! Just haven't been able to make an edit that stays on the article page itself for quite some time. QuackGuru, ScienceApologist and OrangeMarlin make a pretty good tag team that, unless I am willing to revert 3 times, my edits are not going to stay. I am pretty much relegated to the talk page. I'm sure it is an extension of everything else that has been happening around here that I would rather stay out of... -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 19:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

:: This is very sad but true. It shouldn't be this way. Dematt is our most valuable contributor on these subjects, simply because he not only knows his stuff, but also doesn't play favorites. I know the feeling from the other side and haven't been nearly as active for a long time because of similar opposition from certain editors. They made being here at Misplaced Pages too uncomfortable. Some editors simply forget the essense of NPOV, which is ensuring that both (or ''all'') sides get told. While I may bitch about some chiropractic editors who plague me, I'm also ashamed of some so-called skeptics. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 02:16, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
:::Editors should be careful not to jump to conclusions that something should be reverted without carefully considering the talk page discussion etc. I hope editors' judgement about edits is not unduly coloured by their perception of who is initiating the edit. <span style="color:Orange; font-size:2.2em;">☺</span> ] (]) 15:44, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

==History==
I have noted an unfortunate trend towards ahistorical argument in ]. It is reasonable to question chiropractic on the basis of what its practitioners today believe, but it seems unreasonable to question it on the basis of what its practitioners 100 years ago believed, especially for beliefs essentially indistinguishable from those held by physicians and scientists of the time.

DD Palmer clearly believed that most (95%) of disease were caused by a disruption of the flow of “innate intelligence” through nerves. While the term “innate intelligence” may have been original to Palmer, the idea itself was unremarkable and unoriginal; indeed it was virtually conventional dogma. The leading medical textbook of the early 19th century was that of William Cullen, who in Enlightenment Edinburgh educated almost a generation of American physicians (the poet William Cullen Bryant was named after him by his physician father). The first lines of ‘’The Practice of Physic’’ declare that “almost all diseases considered on a certain point of view could be considered nervous” (Cullen 1790).

DD Palmer certainly failed to recognise the importance of the germ theory of disease, which arose in Europe from the work of Louis Pasteur, Koch and Semmelweiss, and which was put into practice by Joseph Lister. However he was far from alone in this; Lister’s ideas were met with considerable resistance by physicians. In 1876, Lister traveled to the US to the International Medical Congress in Philadelphia, and Angell, writing in 1901, describes his ideas, presented there, as “much criticised and even condemned by the surgeons of America." Fortunately, in the audience was William W. Keen (1837–1932) of Jefferson Medical College in Philadelphia, who realized the practical importance of infection control, and who became one of the first American surgeons to implement Lister's system.

Pasteur of course, like most scientists of his time, was explicitly a vitalist.
His great contribution, in 1858, was to show that fermentation only occurs when living cells are present and, further, that cells only carry out fermentation in the absence of oxygen, leading him to describe fermentation as ‘life without air’. This was, at the time, a victory over the reductionist chemists who believed that fermentation resulted from chemical agents or catalysts within cells. Pasteur thus concluded that fermentation was a ‘vital action’. .

We might make fun of Palmer's vitalism now; but he was in very good company indeed in this.] (]) 16:40, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

:Ah, so good to hear from you Gleng.. I am so sorry to have to agree with you about chiropractic taking an ahistorical approach. And sadly, I am truly at a loss for what to do about it either. I'll just keep plugging I suppose... and wait for the cavalry to show up ;-) -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 19:53, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

== Emphasis on the spine ==

Hi Dematt. As noted on the chiro talk page, I jumped the gun and added a comment in the lead before inclusion in the body of the arcicle. My bad!

Since we know this is basically true content, we just need to add the content, with sources, to the body of the article. We have been quite remiss in ignoring this most fundamental fact, since it is probably the single most uniquely identifiable characteristic of the profession.

The following is a proposed new section in the article. Please help with its development. I hope you don't mind this being done in your userspace. You may even want to move this to a subpage, in which case you can just leave a link here. I'm going to invite Gleng and Eubulides to help here. We may find that some of the references are already used in the article, so they'll need to be formatted accordingly here. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 15:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

:You're right. This is important.. in many ways.. I would agree with you that this effects every aspect of chiropractic - from the difference between spinal manipulation and spinal adjustment, to differences in frequency and duration of care depending whether your trying to affect pain or health.. IOWs, straights object to reformers guidelines because they are based on minimums that just get pain to decrease, while more time may be necessary to make any changes in function and or possibly effect general health... and then of course the issue and rationale for maintenance care, etc.. It would take a lot of AGF. ] 16:12, July 12, 2008

=== Emphasis on the spine ===
::<small>''Second level heading (here third level for now). All levels will get "bumped up" when ready for inclusion.''</small>

Chiropractic has always focused its main attention on the spine and considers analysis and treatment of the spine to be the keys to diagnosing health problems and improving overall health.


I have recently the list, adding a few errors, some of which should be easy to correct.
==== The spine as the key to overall health ====
In the straight chiropractic model, analysis (diagnosis) and adjustment (treatment) of the spine alone is considered sufficient enough to affect and effect the health of the entire body, including complaints of non-spinal and non-nervous system related portions of the body.
'''Refs.:'''
Mixers also consider the spine to be the key to overall health, but are willing to use more than spinal adjustments to achieve their goals. They will use other techniques and will treat more than the spine alone.


Regards, ] (]) 05:58, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
'''Refs.:'''


==File source problem with File:John J. Nugent, D.C..jpg==
Reform chiropractors use spinal manipulation as one of many treatment methods, but do not consider the spine to be the key to overall health.
]
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'''Refs.:'''


== ] ==
==== Chiropractors as spinal doctors ====


{{Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2015/MassMessage}} ] (]) 13:55, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
A proposed role for chiropractors of the future sees them in the role of spinal doctors,<ref></ref> and as “the spinal health care experts in the health care system.”<ref></ref>
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'''Refs.:'''


== WikiProject Chiropractic ==


Hi! Thought you might be interested in ] which has just become active today. Would love for you to add your name to our list of members. ] (]) 00:13, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
*
== ] of ] ==
'''References'''
]
{{Reflist}}


The file ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
Why aren't the references appearing here? I don't see them. Did I format them wrong, or is there some code on this page that's screwing them up? -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 02:28, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
<blockquote>unused, low-res, no obvious use</blockquote>


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=== Comment on emphasis on the spine ===


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Wouldn't it be better to discuss proposed changes to ] on ]? That would let more eyeballs see them. I followed up at ]. ] (]) 19:01, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


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: Yes and no. I'm not suggesting a "change", but a totally new addition. Since it can be complicated to develop, we could develop something here and then copy it to the talk page for discussion and input from a wider audience. I'm not suggesting that no one else can participate here, but there will be a more peaceful, effective, and constructive environment here. There is so much stonewalling and obstruction there that it is often very hard to make any progress. Much of the best work and content on the chiropractic article was done by Dematt and a few others on his subpages, and it met wide acceptance and was very stable until CS came along. That's what happens when people who really know something about the subject do the preliminary work. Then others who don't have as much knowledge can make their input, and finally it can be included in the article. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 21:54, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


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::Our problem with our previous version was that, while we seemed to satisfy the straight perspective, we must have ignored the reform POV. This is what triggered CS to make significant changes.. We have to be able to present all POVs without playing favorites to any of them, including those that we agree with... Can we do that? -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 23:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
== ] of ] ==
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The file ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
::: We ''must'' attempt to do that. NPOV requires it and it will make a better article. We are still committed to writing the best article on chiropractic ever written, because it won't suffer from the "weaknesses" of most other articles which are written from one POV. That's fine on a personal website, but not here. BTW, I never did buy CS's claim to be "reform".... He just tried to repackage old dogma in new words (thus fooling himself into believing that he really ''was'' "reform") and then tried to eliminate much of chiropractic history and current practice in an attempt to whitewash the profession of what to him was uncomfortable baggage. It's not that clear cut. It's a very complex and multicolored picture, and it all needs to be told. The straight POV still needs to be given its due share, since it is very much alive in several variations. The same for other POV. His use of "progressive" was in itself a strong (yet subtle) editorializing POV push and not very conducive to creating an NPOV and stable article. Some people might well consider his POV and the reform POV as "progressive", but we shouldn't do that kind of editorializing in the article, unless we have some specific references that use such terminology, and even then it's just one POV. Many chiropractors would consider that POV to be apostasy. We both know this from the various POV that exist within the profession and outside of it. We need to be inclusionists and tell it like it is. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 02:06, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
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:::: I'm game, but the science section and the history have taken most of my time for now, but we might be getting close to finishing that up. Couldn't figure out that reference section either, huh ;-) -- <b><font color="999900">]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">]</font> 05:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


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''"Besides, the Keating source was 10 years old. In EBM years, that is about 70 :-) "'' <br/>LOL! <span style="color:Red; font-size:1.9em;">☺</span> ] (]) 16:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


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: I agree it would be funny if it didn't continue to apply. It will only be after the large majority of currently practicing DCs are dead and gone that it won't apply as much. Keep in mind that the largest chiropractic schools (the Life and Palmer colleges) are straight schools and are still pumping out large numbers of young straight chiros. Life's education was so straight that it lost its accreditation for a short time. Ancient dogma is still being taught to new DCs: "We don't need to concern ourselves with differential diagnosis or medical diagnoses, because we know that there is only one diagnosis, the chiropractic diagnosis of vertebral subluxations." (Paraphrase of , founder of Life) -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 16:23, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
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Latest revision as of 16:29, 25 November 2021

Archive

Archives

4/20 - 9/21 2006
2

Invitation to CfD Category:Pseudoskeptic Target Discussion

I noticed that you have edited in related areas within WP, and so thought you might have an interest in this discussion.-- self-ref (nagasiva yronwode) (talk) 18:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Treatment techniques

The Talk:Chiropractic#Treatment techniques section needs an expert on the subject. I hope you are interested in helping out in reaching WP:GA status for chiropractic. This is possible with the help of an expert. QuackGuru (talk) 23:48, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Request

Hiya, at the pseudosciences list, I realize that it's a hot topic, but unless there's a strong consensus to do so on the talkpage, it's probably not a good idea to be removing sourced information like this. You may wish to modify the information, but the citations themselves should probably be left in place. Thanks, --Elonka 04:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Elonka, good to see you're still here. I respect what you are trying to do. Sorry to get involved, I'll leave it up to you. -- Dēmatt (chat) 04:34, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, was on vacation for awhile (Caribbean cruise, it was great!), and just got back last night. I'm still wading through my watchlist, and trying to sort out where I can best help. Do feel free to keep engaging at the pseudoscience list, I'm not trying to scare you off.  :) All I'm asking is that you leave the citations in place, and perhaps try to modify the information from those citations. For example, perhaps create a new subsection on that page for certain entries, or rewrite them a bit? I'm not sure, I'm just trying to help avoid the "A reverts B, C reverts A, D reverts C, etc." edit wars.  ;) Thanks for understanding, --Elonka 04:41, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
And you are doing a wonderful job as usual. I am sure that you will eventually get a good grip on it, but I'm afraid I don't have the kind of time it takes to deal with QuackGuru's loving little soul. If the bar for the inclusion criteria ever sinks so low as to include chiropractic, a profession that sees 10% of the US population in any one year, then it is too vague to clear the NPOV criteria for lists. If you raise that bar then it fails WP:PSCI, no matter what any quasi-reliable source says. Just doing my part.
Did you do the Eastern cruise or the Western cruise? I've done both and loved each of them. I wanna go baaaackk!!! Though I was concerned about your situation last year, glad to see you fought through it.
Thanks for your kindness. -- Dēmatt (chat) 04:59, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Nice to see two people whom I highly respect. Elonka, that might surprise you, chiroskeptic that I am, but Dematt is a man of integrity. Even when we disagree, and we do at times, we do it agreeably ;-) He has been the major factor in the expansion of the chiropractic article from a pitiful state to what it is today. A great Wikipedian!
I am uneasy about the current dispute, since I'm somewhat split over the issue. The heading states that we can include the opinions of skeptics, but they are being kept out. The inclusion criteria are right in the heading, but PSCI is being applied. The problem is, we aren't placing it in the Category, just documenting that skeptics consider it to be pseudoscientific.
OTOH, I also have qualms about including "chiropractic" as a whole, since it's a mixed bag. The parts of chiropractic that are generally considered pseudoscientific are three things:
VS is still the philosophical (no VS, no excuse for the existence of the profession) and legal foundation of the profession (no treatment of subluxation, no payment from Medicare!), and that is problematic for chiropractic and its reputation in the scientific and skeptical community, since it's a pseudoscientific construct without anatomical basis. Only chiropractors (mostly straights) believe in it. Many are openly against it, but it would be suicidal of the profession to openly reject it.
Ideally we should include those three concepts, and state that the first two are elements of chiropractic, and include vitalism by itself, since it is an element of many forms of alternative medicine, not just chiropractic.
I'm tired of the wikilawyering that panders to the fringe, instead of fighting for an NPOV version that will allow inclusion. Changing the article's title will solve that problem. People can choose one side or the other. Either they will exploit the current title to support keeping fringe ideas out, or they will support an NPOV title to allow inclusion. BTW, these elements of chiropractic that should be mentioned aren't "Questionable science", but clearly PS. They are in the first two of the four WP:PSCI criteria.
One things is certain, no matter what we do, and no matter how well sourced, and even if DD Palmer himself appeared and admitted he had been one of the greatest quacks of all time, Levine2112 will appear and make sure that the word chiropractic is not allowed to stay on the page, even if he has to use socks and meatpuppets. There will never be peace there if the word is mentioned. The edit history has shown that to be the case. Only tight admin control and sanctions can prevent that. -- Fyslee (talk) 05:51, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi Fyslee, thanks for the kudos. I know you are doing your best to be as neutral as you can and I do appreciate that, but you have to remember that pseudoscience is a pejorative and is a serious accusation. You can't create a list with 'the skeptical inquirer' as inclusion criteria as one of the accusers and expect it to ever be NPOV. That is why we require things like this type of inclusion criteria. So if you really want to work toward NPOV and credibility for wikipedia, work to correct the inclusion criteria and the rest will take care of itself.
By the way, vitalism is not pseudoscience. All healers were vitalists until the early 20th century. Now when vitalists inject a spiritual being into the picture, it becomes religious, but that is not pseudoscience by definition. The new vitalists have migrated to emergence - and that is all materalistic and uses organization as an explanation for the development of intelligence when reductionist concepts can no longer answer the questions of life. One of our very own past wikipedians User:Gleng is one of those, and actually has finished research on the first model of how an emergent system might work showing how oxytocin will not result in lactation without suckling because the hypothalimus must receive the nerve stimulation from the alveoli before it will be primed to release the oxytocin. There is no way to have understood these processes in the days of DD Palmer, so yes they gave them spiritual elements. All people believed that. Innate intelligence has little scientific meaning today and I don't know any chiropractors that use the term (not saying there aren'a ny out ther), but can be thought of as a metaphor for those body functions that are controlled by the brain, which are most all as far as anyone knows. The degree that chiropractic has any affect on those functions is being studied. Is it going to show that 'chiropractic cures all ills' - No. And no-one says so. If you find any chiropractic organization that says so, let me know. Now are there chiropractors that think they can cure all ills - YES, and they drive us all crazy, but that does not mean that they are pseudoscientists, only crazy.
Thanks for lending me your ear. -- Dēmatt (chat) 06:46, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Hey, Dematt!!

Welcome back!!!! ... and thanks for the barnstar! ☺Coppertwig(talk) 01:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Welcome back to The Other Place (tm) :-). BTW, can you get the necessary people over at the Other-Other Place to edit their Vit C article to make it more readible. It's long winded gibberish at the moment, almost like it's been run through Bablefish or something :-(. Ta Shot info (talk) 11:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

ArbCom request for clarification: WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE

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FICS

Thanks for fixing my reference :) I'm hoping to move the article over to mainspace soon, but the admin that deleted it last month says he still thinks it fails WP:Note, so I'm going to try to dig up a few more references if possible. Good to see you are back - I myself have taken several months off, and am not sure how much I'll be on here. DigitalC (talk) 03:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, I don't know how much I'm going to be around, would you mind watchlisting the FICS article? International Federation of Sports Chiropractic... thanks! DigitalC (talk) 04:14, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

invite

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AfD - Chiropractic controversy and criticism

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Harvey Lillard

Hello :) I saw you're quite the expert on chiropractic and wanted to tell you that I'll be creating an article about Harvey Lillard these days. I'll write it here first- if you ever see something not right I'd be more than grateful if you could tell me about it. Regards! --Jargon 16:44, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

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Citizendium approved errors

Hi Matt,

I have recently updated the list, adding a few errors, some of which should be easy to correct.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 05:58, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

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