Talk:Bicycle kick: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 21:40, 31 August 2008 editSelecciones de la Vida (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers2,980 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 18:51, 10 April 2024 edit undoRfl0216 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users179,446 edits combine duplicate banners
(293 intermediate revisions by 44 users not shown)
Line 1:		Line 1:
			{{ArticleHistory
	{{Football \|class=Start \|importance=mid}}

			\|dykdate=22 December 2015
	==Early Discussion==
			\|dykentry= ... that the ''']''' ''(pictured)'' is one of association football's most celebrated skills?\|nompage=Template:Did you know nominations/Bicycle kick
			\|action1=GAN
			\|action1result=failed
			\|action1date=27 November 2015
			\|action1link=Talk:Bicycle kick/GA1

			\|action2=GAN
	I made an effort to edit this page earlier today to correct the information regarding the so-called bicycle kick. It was first used in a game in 1917 during the South American Championships in Argentina, and received its official desigantion as "chilena" in 1927 after it was performed multiple times by Chilean club Colo-Colo player David Arellano while on an exhibition tour through Europe. Because it was first seen in Europe performed by a Chilean player, it became designated as the "chilena", or Chilean kick. The Brazilian player who has been credited with "inventing" the move did not play until the mid-30s. Remember South America hosted the first ever World Cup in 1930, and in many ways, the game is much more popular there than anywhere else in the world. I don't understand why the monitor of this page reverted the info, when if you ask FIFA about the "chilena" kick, they will know exactly what you are talking about. The designation "bicycle kick" came much later as other players began to emulate the move, and Brazilian players internationalized it as a result of their soccer success. I guess it is yet another case of historical revisionism told from a more conventional Eurocentric approach. I think the claim above, well known in Latin America and Spain, should at least form part of the official story. If it does not, then Misplaced Pages is promoting half-truths in this matter.
			\|action2result=listed
	Credited to ], who credited it to ], but actually invented by a Chile player in 1917, before coming to wider attention in 1927. That's the (confusing) info. you'd get from Misplaced Pages about the bicycle kick! ] 23:50, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
			\|action2date=28 November 2015
			\|action2link=Talk:Bicycle kick/GA2
			\|action2oldid=692791517

			\|currentstatus=GA
	== Sources? ==
			\|topic=sports and recreation

			\|action3=FAC
	There should probably be some sources to some of this info.
			\|action3date=2016-02-13
	Also, is a scissor kick pretty much the same thing? I can't find a clear description of it anywhere. ] 01:39, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
			\|action3link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Bicycle kick/archive1
			\|action3result=failed
			\|action3oldid=700326510

			\|action4=FAC
	By this point we need more sources validating the claims of how people call the move across the globe. I've seen many people use this list as a fact in several other websites and day-to-day discussions, but there is no real source validating any of these claims. Here are some things I recommend for those who might want to help out on this: 1. Remember that exceptional claims require exceptional sources, therefore do not include things related to the "Whole World" or "everybody in " if you do not have a highly reliable source or a series of different sources validating such a statement. 2. Do not use blogs or forum discussions! These are not good sources. 3. Add working links. Everything else is fair game here just as long as you can find information validating such things.--] (]) 19:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
			\|action4date=2016-10-30
			\|action4link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Bicycle kick/archive2
			\|action4result=failed
			\|action4oldid=744642523

			\|action5=FAC
	==Uses==
			\|action5date=2018-07-09
			\|action5link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Bicycle kick/archive3
			\|action5result=failed
			\|action5oldid=849310808
			}}
			{{British English}}
			{{Talk header\|noarchive=yes}}
			{{WikiProject banner shell\|class=GA\|
			{{WikiProject South America\|importance=low\|Peru=yes\|Peru-importance=low}}
			{{WikiProject Football\|importance=mid}}
			{{WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors\|user=Twofingered Typist\|date=8 October 2016\|old-date-1=29 November 2015\|old-user-1=Drcrazy102}}
			}}
			{{Video requested}}
			{{notaforum}}
			{{archives\|search=yes}}

			== Origin - Unzaga? ==
	I once saw a bicycle kick used to keep a ball from going out of bounds (in and Under-18 game I was playing in no less). Shall I add that as a use? It hardly seems right that there are only two 'valid' uses. - ] 00:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

			This article is tendentious.
	:Probably. I remember having done so as a little kid once (though it was a sort of sideways bicycle kick, whatever you'd call that). — ] \| ''']''' \| ] • <small>] • ]</small> 08:38, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
			It completely hides the true inventor of the bicycle kick, Ramón Unzaga: "The important seaport of Chile in Talcahuano also has a bicycle kick tradition dating back to the 1910s, when Ramón Unzaga, a Basque athlete born in Spain and a naturalized Chilean ''supposedly'' invented the maneuver known locally as chorera (also alluding to the local demon)?
			In addition, confuses the reader with respect to the death of David Arellano: "his untimely death on that tour due to an injury caused ''by one of his acrobatics''"? This is not true. Arellano died of peritonitis after receiving a strong blow, product of the fall of a rival in his stomach (Arellano previously suffered from a hernia).
			Many efforts to hide the 'chilena', its origion and difussion. ] (]) 17:31, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

			:The maneuvre's origin is unclear, as indicated by the sources, so no assertion is made as to where exactly it was invented. Only possibilities and likelihoods are mentioned.
	:::You would call that a scissors kick. ] 21:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
			:Arellano did, in fact, die as a result of his acrobatics. Certainly, his "rival" did not murder him.--] ]] 21:18, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

			The maneuvre's origin is unclear only for one part involved.
	==More than football==
			Theory about the 'chilena':
			Player: Ramón Unzaga Asla.
			Date: January, 1914.
			Field: El Morro, Talcahuano.
			What did Unzaga say?:
			"On two occasions the referee charged me a foul for ''a luxury jump I gave to reject the ball'', alleging that I committed foul against the opposing player del Río. This same player took advantage of ''my movement'' and the referee charged me the foul. I was forced to observe the referee's error, claiming that recognized judges ''had not penalized me''". (El Sur, Concepción, December 31, 1918).
			Theory about the 'chalaca':
			Player: ?
			Date: ?
			Field: ?
			What did Jorge Barraza say? (The journalist who supports this theory):
			I have no doubt that it is 'chalaca', but the world already knows it as 'chilena' and it is difficult to change it. Rare that in Peru they have not looked for ''the proofs that demonstrate it''. (twit dated on april 4, 2018).
			Regarding Arellano, He died as a result of an unfortunate accident. Nobody talks about a murder.
			https://elpais.com/deportes/2018/04/11/actualidad/1523445557_582852.html Greetings. ] (]) 01:28, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

			:For specific information regarding Arellano's death, the article ] is available for improvement. The source cited indicates Arellano's acrobatic showboating is what ultimately caused the injury that, in turn, led to his untimely death. This is relevant information about an article concerning an acrobatic football skill, which he reportedly performed in numerous occasions.
	It's used in more games than just football. In ] and ] for example. -- ]
			:As for the origin of the bicycle kick, the sources indicate that this is unclear. Misplaced Pages is not the place ].
			:By the way, Unzaga's cited statement is vague about what exactly he performed that the referee charged as a foul.--] ]] 01:51, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

			"After Unzaga demonstrated his aptitude for the jaw-dropping stunt several times during the 1916 and 1920 Copa America tournaments, many Spanish Speakers took to calling it a "chilena" a designation that endures to this day.
	== Translations ==
			https://www.fifa.com/the-best-fifa-football-awards/news/the-bicycle-kick-football-s-most-spectacular-sight-2862019
			People already know. Greetings ] (]) 04:37, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

			:Thanks for sharing that article. To quote it, "But whether it emerged from Brazil, Chile or Peru, all the evidence does seem to point towards South American origins."
	I changed the order a little bit in my attempt to sort translations by language as opposed to countries, as there are usually more than 1 languages spoken in any states. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:59, 8 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			:Basadre never writes about the bicycle kick, nonetheless, so the article itself is not free from errors.
			:Anyhow, unless you have any other points to address about the article, this discussion seems to have run its course.
			:Regards.--] ]] 05:03, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

			I wish you success with your legends ] (]) 19:31, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
	== Don't add biased Blogs. ==
			:Alright. Thank you.--] ]] 22:04, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

			== definition ==
	I just removed this paragraph from the article:

			I would argue that the bicycle kick & scissors kick are not the same. I fail to see any 'bicycle' movement in the scissor kick in which the legs are essentially straight. The bicycle kick when I played was a method of getting over the ball when it was above ground level but below waist height. The player jumped in the air, did a cycling motion with his feet and connected with the ball. The obvious difference is that in the scissors kick the ball arrives above waist height, with the bicycle kick it arrives below waist height.] (]) 13:46, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
	"The Chilean journalist Eduardo Bustos Alister disproves this notion citing several articles from Chilean newspapers written in the late 1910's which make reference to the 'Chilena' while pointing out the absolute lack of evidence, as well as all the inconsistencies of the Peruvian claim. As he points out, the Chileans never called it 'Chalaca'."<ref>'Un Verso Para El Fútbol, con Bautizo Universal'</ref>
			:English football fans have been getting this wrong for decades. Ask a Spanish speaker what "La Bicicleta" is and you'll get a totally different move. After all, the South Americans invented La Bicicleta and the English took the name and used it for a totally different move, which is known throughout the World as the scissor kick. In Spanish speaking countries the Scissor or Overhead kick is known as "La Chilena". However, getting a know-all English fan to admit their error is pointless as they never will. ] (]) 17:28, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
			::"La Bicicleta" and "a Bicycle kick" while having superficially similar names have never been confused for each other. Hence why the Portuguese describe the latter as "pontapé de bicicleta" rather than just "bicicleta". The Spanish "Bicicleta" is what we refer, in English, as a "]". Now you can ask why that article doesn't reference the Spanish name for the same move, but claiming that the "English" have confused an overhead kick with a dribbling motion is not only very unlikely, but also not supported by any reliable sources. ] (]) 19:54, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
			::Furthermore, asserting what "Spanish speaking countries" call the move is problematic. As indicated in the article, the name varies depending on location. Trying to impose a name over another just because that's what you think it should be called isn't correct. Let everyone enjoy the game their own way.--] ]] 21:44, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

			:Bicycle kick is either jumping up, or falling backwards, and using your feet to strike the ball that is above your head. In both cases the ball arrives above shoulder height (usually) and you are using your momentum to drive your feet at a ball that you otherwise cannot strike.
	The reason for me doing such was because not only it comes from a completely biased blog-website (as it may be seen after looking at webpage and noting the author completely biases on favor of "la chilena"). Also, the author points out an "absolute lack of evidence," when there is plenty of evidence that has been supplied (shown on the article with the various links given to the Peruvian section) and there's also an official declaration from a FIFA official. Then the author claims "inconsistencies of the Peruvian claim" when, once more, in the article here it has been shown that all things pointed out are not inconsistencies and have resources to prove they are correct. In conclusion, please do not post biased blogs because it harms Misplaced Pages's credibility. ] 22:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
			:The bicycle motion was in the generation of that momentum, usually while bringing up the kicking leg after using to to propel upwards, the other leg is brought down sharply and are in a cycling motion. Fundamentally it might look like a bicycle motion, or scissor motion of the legs. However a lot of players achieve it just with straight legs, or do so at a position somewhere between waist and shoulder. The common theme would be both feet from the ground and an expectation that the body is at least horizontal.
			:What you describe (which sounds similar to Di Canio's volleyed goal against Wimbledon, or McManaman's CL goal for Real Madrid) may also be described as a scissor kick, or scissor motion, or may have a cycle motion with the leg but it isn't what this article is about, nor supported by a reliable source. ] (]) 16:58, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

			== Gareth Bale? ==
	==Jumping to conclusions==
	In the Peruvian claim there is a conclusion at the second paragraph, it's written as the article's conclusion, but the point in the attributions section is that there is no known definitive "truthiness" of the origin.--neolandes 02:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
	:It's not the article's conclusion.--] (]) 15:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

			No mention of Gareth Bale's wonder goal in the 2018 Champions League Final? For me and many others superior to the Ronaldo goal from the same year which is included in the article. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:40, 23 August 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	== Emphasizing cities rather than countries ==

			== Bicycle kick and Scissors kick. ==
	All the claims of invention generally approve of the move being created in a particular city. Most of the moves got their early names from their cities, and not their countries. For instance, in Peru the name was and still is used for the Peruvian port of Callao. In Chile, the name was used to refer to the port of Talcahuano. Other variations of creation simply set the claim on a specific player and name their action in a way similar to "bicycle kick" (not related to a country or particular city). The only name that specifically claims a nation as its origin is Chile's "chilena." The point is to emphasize the place of origin, and the more accurate the title the better the people will understand where the move was allegedly created. Therefore it's pointless to simply include the nation's name and be non-accurate (as the encyclopedia is not supposed to be).--] (]) 16:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

			"Bicycle kick" and "Scissors kick" should not be exchangeable.
	:It's actually very unfair to place emphasis on a specific point of origin when the firt person to make the move was someone from Chile. In all fairness I've always known the move as a bicycle kick in the United States, as an overhead kick in other English speaking countries and as a chilena in most of the Spanish speaking community especially in the United States. In order to maintain complete neutrality, The first player to make the move should get the benefit of the doubt since it was first done by someone from Chile in an official match, with respect to other claims. ] (]) 19:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

			A bicycle kick is an overhead kick if the player's back is closer to the ground than his side when performing the feat.
	::Like I explain on the history page. It's not about emphasizing a specific point, and it's not about giving the claim to a specific city, country, or person. This article is supposed to stay Non POV, and thus far that's the way it has been. Moreover, this is an encyclopedia, and in an encyclopedia you have to keep things: '''consistent''', '''alphabetized''', and '''well validated'''(with good sources). In terms of what you may think or you may have heard, it's not my fault that Talcahuano starts with a "T" and Callao starts with a "C"; just as it's not my fault that "Turin" has a "U" and not an "A" as its second letter (thus it stays last). Ramon Unzaga first made his move in Talcahuano, therefore that's where the origin of the move is, and Talcahuano deserves as much "honor" in this situation as Ramon Unzaga. In fact, the original name in Chile was '''Chorera''', which was a direct reference to Talcahuano. Now, you might hear the name "chilena," but thus far there is no source that has proven many of the claims of the countries that say Chilena. You can't just claim that something '''is''' something if you cannot validate it. For instance, I was born hearing the word '''Chalaca''' and everywhere I went I also have always called the move '''Chalaca''', and when I speak about football with my friends from Mexico, Italy, Belgium, and Colombia I always call the move '''Chalaca''' and they know what I mean. Yet, that does not mean the place of origin is in Callao. That's why ''Atributions of Invention'' explains that various countries have different ideas, different ways of calling it, etc. If you do not comply to Misplaced Pages's standards, I will be forced to hand you a warning. If further disruptive behaviour from you continues, I will issue someone of higher authority to warn you. If you end up getting IP banned, that will then be your own problem. Contribute to Misplaced Pages as if it were an '''encyclopedia''', not your personal toy where you can write your personal opinions.--] (]) 19:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
	:You've re-ordered the article just to satisfy your needs keep NPOV. ] (]) 19:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
	:::I've made the article more accurate by being more specific on the cities and not the countries. I've also alphabetized much of the article and provided a series of sources. You have deleted several of my sources, de-alphabetized the sections, changed things that I wrote, and placed everything to your nationalistic and POV likings. Leave nationalistic feelings behind. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not your toy.--] (]) 20:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

			A bicycle kick is a scissor kick if his side is closer to the ground than his back when performing the feat. The orientation of the body of the player won't allow the ball to be above his head. So, there is no way it can be called an "overhead" kick.
	'''Another idea''' is to follow the format of the Spanish article. For instance, they have the names of the moves and their history. I still favor using the names of the cities, though. I firmly believe that using the names of the cities is more honorable for them and provides the proper recognition that they deserve. By using the names of the countries we're going back to foolish nationalistic things that will only bring more problems to the article. I go as far as proposing the removal of the nations of the countries from the titles and simply including the claims of the cities. Anyone in favor, against, other ideas?--] (]) 21:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

			The problem is that both feats involve a scissors-like movement. So, terms like "bicycle kick" and "scissors kick" are somewhat ambiguous. Neither would make good "umbrella" term, in my opinion. But, I guess its use is too spread in English.
	== Article has Point of View? ==

			'''''Overhead kick''''' is a good name if the ball is above the head when performing it. It is called or, chalaca in Spanish.
	An IP address notified, in a rather unpleasant and destructive (constructive to him, I suppose; therefore not vandalizing as user "Hut 8.5" explained), that the article was POV. Now I'm the kind of person that '''HATES''' POV articles, and I do not intend for this article to be such a thing. I'm an avid Wikipedist, and I stay true to my work. I do not edit to vandalize or make other users feel unpleasant times in here. I just write the truth, validate it with facts, and follow all the Misplaced Pages rules that I know. Nonetheless, the question stands for others to comment. Do you think there's POV in the article? If so, where do you see the POV and how do you think '''we''' can fix it? Also please do not delete source citations as it destroys the works other wikipedists have been making.--] (]) 20:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
	:I agree, the article is a sensitive subject between the nations of Peru and Chile, and should be protected. Looking at the recent edits I propose to revert the origins section and keep it as it was prior. Origins are well expressed within each sub-section and should stay as what it was (Chilean claim and Peruvian claim) since the two countries are much more recognizable than the cities of Talcahuano and Callao. ] (]) 21:01, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
	::I disagree with using the names of nations. When the change was made, I was originally doubting the inclusion of the names of the countries. I mean, if we include the names of the countries, that further creates more antagonism and situations of "wars" and other idiotic whatnot that should not happen. The cities should be mentioned in the titles as it provides the proper respect to each city and their claim. For example, the "Peruvian Claim" is really not much of a claim of all of Peru makes. Several of the young people in Peru have began to call the move "chilena" and they don't even recall or believe the elders when they tell them that the move was at one point called chalaca everywhere in Peru. Yet, the city of Callao still claims the move to have been born there, and when the Argentine CONMEBOL journalist came to Peru he went to investigate in Callao, not all of Peru. Hence, such a thing as the "Peruvian claim" does not really exist. I hope I explained myself good here. '''Next''' comes the reference to Talcahuano. In several other websites I've seen people refering to this article and discussing things about the chalaca or chilena or other whatnot, but when they mention the chilena the main mention is David Arellano and not Ramon Unzaga, and they much less even mention the port of Talcahuano. I mean, I could only image if I was from Talcahuano and nobody even remembered that at one point the move in Chile was also called "Chorera" in order to honor my city. If we are to take the Ramon Unzaga account as true, we should then include the city of Talcahuano in the mention of the title. I'm doing this not because I want to place the article in the way that is "convenient to me" like the IP Adress stated, but rather because I feel it's more important to mention Talcahuano in the section title as the place of origin than simply mentioning the broad and inconclusive "Chilean Claim". I mean, before the edit wars began with the IP address, I was going to include the Brazilian cliam of Leonidas, and the city in which Leonidas apparently invented the move starts with a "B." Therefore, if we continue using the cities and alphabetizing, the said city of Leonidas would go first in the section. Yet, that does not mean I'm favoring Leonidas as the creator; that just means I'm still alphabetizing the work.--] (]) 21:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
	:::The suggestion is made because in the end it's each country claiming the move as its own not the city of origin. If you'd like to include Leonidas than it should go under Brazilian claim. ] (]) 21:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

			'''''Scissors kick''''', in my opinion should be used for what in Spanish is called or, media chilena.
	If you really want Talcahuano to be removed, I suppose the situation can reach a mutual agreement. The article could get new titles in the following way: ''Origin in Talcahuano, Chile'' is changed to ''Claim of Chile'', the ''Origin in Turin, Italy'' is changed to ''Claim of Italy'', and the ''Origin in Callao, Peru'' is change to ''Claim of Callao''. Yet again it's important to mention that the city of Callao is the one making the claim of invention and not all of Peru. People in Lima, Tacna, Arequipa, Cusco, Piura, etc. do not claim the Chalaca as their move; they simply support the claim of Callao. The other reasonable option would be to simply include the names of the moves like in the Spanish article.--] (]) 22:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

			In the Spanish Misplaced Pages there are two entries as you can realize. So, why should they be the same in English? At least, there should be two sub-sections in this article.
	== Semi-Protection ==

			In Spain, they initially used the terms, "tijera" and "media tijera", respectively, in the early days of these feats (which made things confusing). But, that didn't last too long. They, later, adopted the most common terminology used in South America.
	Due to the horrible IP war with IP address: 96.242.82.74 ; I have to propose semi-protecting the page in order to protect the content that has been provided by users like me, Selecciones de la Vida, HenryLi, and other users. I'm well aware that IP addresses have made past good contributions to the article, but I'm afraid the situation is escalating to a whole new different level. Please discuss this proposal and report any more acts of extreme editing from IP addresses that you might find (Make sure to mention the IP address name here). Note that this is not the place to report or seek an IP address ban, but it is good so that you can share your experiences with fellow contributors.--] (]) 20:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

			Additionally, I consider the term "bicycle kick" to be misleading or too vague. In my opinion, it never resembles a pedaling-like movement. Even further, as it has already been noted at this talk page, "la bicicleta", in Spanish, is a feint used to puzzle an opposite marking player in an attempt to clear him or a goalkeeper before shooting to goal.
	== Alphabetizing the encyclopedia ==

			Source: I am Ecuadorian. (Yes, Ecuador is in South America) Do I need additional credentials?
	Just like any other encyclopedia, Misplaced Pages must be alphabetized in order to help the people trying to find useful information in the article. Some of the users seem to think that because Ramon Unzaga's record is "older" then it should be mentioned first. Well, there is also the record of the Chalaca in the 19th century, which is older than Unzaga's. Does that mean the Callao section should appear before the Talcahuano section? NO! The first thing to note is that alphabetizing means setting the article in order of the alphabet where it would be most useful. In this particular section there are currently 3 setcions: "Origin in Callao, Peru", "Origin in Talcahuano, Chile", and "Origin in Turin, Italy." Callao starts with a "C", which comes before the "T" of Turin and Talcahuano, and the next letter "A" in Talcahuano comes before the letter "U" in Turin. Does this mean the article is emphasizing the Callao section? NO! Please go look at ], a Featured Article, and you'll see that "Coat of Arms" is before "Meaning of Colors" even though the "Design and Symbolism" top shows the color scheme of the flag. Alphabetizing is part of all encyclopedias, and therefore Misplaced Pages also needs that.--] (]) 20:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
	:Ramon Unzaga is reported as being the first person to make the move in an official match. The name chilena is result due to that first move and also because of the European tour by Chilean club team Colo-Colo. The term chilena is supported by FIFA through their online publications, much like how BBC news offers the term overhead kick, or how American sports media label the move bicycle kick. Nation of origin should go over city of origin since chilena is named after the country and not the city of Talcahuano. ] (]) 22:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
	::I don't believe anybody is doubting the Ramon Unzaga account. The name '''chorera''' was used before Chilena. I just found another article, a 2008 article, done to Jorge Barraza in which he further explains his investigation. Jorge Barraza is truly a person of much fame and prestige, and he supports the term chalaca. You're being biased towards the chilena by simply noting that the move refers to the nation of Chile, but you're ignoring that the move Callao refers to the city of Callo and not the nation of Peru. If the move was a "Peruvian Claim" then the move would be named "la peruana" and not "chalaca."--] (]) 22:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

			] (]) 04:59, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
	Another thing. This is not supposed to show a "record" of when the moves were allegedly made because the topic is highly controversial. There can be no record because the invention has not been 100% certified for a particular claim. The best way to keep this information is through alphabetizing. Using the terms "so and so claim" (which was an idea I believe I developed some time ago, probably years ago) such as "Chilean Claim", "Peruvian Claim", "Brazilian Claim", etc. makes little sense by this point. It is highly childish to have something such as that. A '''more professional''' manner in which to express this is by either having the section titles as "Origin in Callao, Peru" (mentioning the city and the respective country of origin) or the name of the move such as "Rovesciata." Remember: '''The more professional the encyclopedia, the better'''. I will also seek another person to colloborate as a third opinion.--] (]) 00:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
			:This is the English language article, so everything is defined by the usage in the English language. This article is about the Overhead Kick only (per all the photographs and the diagrams). The reference to a Scissor Kick is because of the leg motion, however almost no English commentators would typically use the term scissor kick to describe an overhead kick, they do often use Bicycle Kick however. It is mentioned in this article because some sources do use the term however, because functionally the technical aspects are the same. Nobody in English speaking would use the term "la bicicleta" to confuse the subject as it isn't a kick. ] (]) 15:34, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

			::It's not clear to me what exactly is being suggested as a change. Regardless, Koncorde is correct in that the entry here is a reflection of the usage in English. Other languages are mentioned for their interesting history in relation to the maneuver, but that's about it.--] ]] 22:22, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
	== Names over cities/countries ==

			== This also happens in Australian rules football ... ==
	Following the example of the Spanish wikipedia, I think this would be an even better idea in order to prevent future conflicts and better classify the names with the origin. After all, at the start of the article we do not mention things such as "claim of so and so", we just simply state the names. Later, if the reader wishes to read more, he sees the section of "overview." Then, if the reader suddenly gets the fantastic urge to learn how this was made, he goes ahead and looks at "attributions of invention" and reads each section headed by the name of the move. In the Spanish wikipedia this seems to have worked perfectly fine, and therefore there is no reason as to why that could not work here.--] (]) 22:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

			Soccer is not the only football code which has this move. It is also in ]. But mention of it keeps getting removed. There are some prominent ] examples.
	:Agreed ] (]) 01:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
	::Okay, thank you for accepting.--] (]) 13:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

			Here is a very recent example: https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/watch-collingwood-big-man-brody-mihocek-pulls-off-miracle-soccer-style-scissor-kick-to-seal-win-c-10574774 ] (]) 04:23, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
	== Mention of Tennis in Peru ==

			:Disagree. In your example, Mihocek kicked the ball softly over his head while falling backwards with one foot still on the ground - does not meet the bicycle kick definition. At best, it occurs occasionally by accident in Australian football, so far short of its status as a highly celebrated soccer skill that it does not bear mentioning. ] (]) 04:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
	The small wordings in the Chalaca section that mention tennis should not be erased from the article. When Selecciones de la Vida made the original deletion, the mention of tennis was in a complete sentence. The sentence was in complete context out of the article and Selecciones was correct in editing that out. Nonetheless, the small mention of tennis is highly important in the first sentence of the second paragraph because it helps the reader understand that sport in Peru evolved in other ares besides football. Yet again, it's not my fault the other sections don't have as much detail. I've tried to improve the Italian and Brazilian sections, but I have limitations in such areas. My Italian is really basic, just like my French, and therefore I can only read and understand (and in that context speak) very few of those languages. In the matter of Portuguese, which is where most of the information about Leonidas can truly be found, I know nothing of it and barely understand it thanks to my knowledge of Spanish. Once again, do not delete the small tennis section as it does not constitute a whole sentence and is important to broaden the minds of the readers.--] (]) 23:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

	:The inclusion of tennis would be fine in an article regarding the history of sport in Peru, but is rather irrelevant when the article deals with the bicycle kick and the sport of football. Seriously is the chalaca, chilena, bicycle kick performed in the sport of tennis? You say that it's important to broaden the minds of readers when in reality is a far stretch and a tangent.

	::On another note the mention of club games between Chilean and Peruvian clubs doesn't have a general puropose unless the bicycle kick was made in those games and as a result Chileans learned about the move. What's the point of making that argument unless someone is trying to imply through circumstantial reasoning that because of these games one country copied the move from another? For example you mention that Alianza Lima made a tour across Chile and played against Colo-Colo. What's the point when the games were played way after David Arellano had exhibited the bicycle kick in the fields of Spain, especially when regarding the fact that he died from an injury that was inflicted during a match in 1927.

	Also, all of these Chilean and Peruvian club matches happened after 1920 when the move was already exhibited by Unzaga in an international ] game against Argentina. Anything else would just be an historic foundation of the development of Peruvian football which has no reason even being in this article becauase none of it directly involves the invention of the bicycle kick. ] (]) 01:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

	How is such a thing irrelevant if it is just a small wording that says "such as in tennis"? The link that says Peru has the second oldest '''Tennis''' foundation in the Americas is supposed to help demonstrate that Peru has a very old sports foundation, therefore I have to include the small "such as tennis" thing. You tell me these things almost as if you've never written a paper in English in your life.--] (]) 13:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

	Next, on the mention of games, for your information (seeing as you seemingly haven't read the complete section) that section is supposed '''to help the readers understand how the spread of the word Chalaca took place, the early importance of Peruvian clubs in the world of football (Therefore another explanation to help the reader see why the claim of Callao has any foundation), and it brings forth Alejandro Villanueva into the story (Further explaining why he gained recognition in Peru)'''. If you haven't noticed, the section does not simply refer to Chile, it also mentions Colombia and Venezuela. Yet again, it's not my fault that the Peruvian clubs made more tours in Chile than any other country. All I'm doing is recording the facts. I see you put the dates that the football tours took place, therefore there is no more problem with this part. Obviously, a person who is reading this can go to the ''Chilena'' section and see the date of Unzaga's alleged move.--] (]) 13:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

	::
	* Writing an English paper about the history of sport development in Peru is different than when you're writing a Misplaced Pages article about the invention of the bicycle kick. So keep your sly comments to yourself because they are in no way helping your case. Tennis in Peru is needless information with no overall purpose, nor is it notable when discussing the subject matter which is the bicycle kick, yet you insist on including something which is very irrelevant.

	* Adding club games between Chile and Peru team that happened years after the first bicycle kick was performed during an international match has no direct correlation with the invention of the bicycle kick. The section is general can best be categorized as "filler" with no real purpose.

	* You say that you record facts and input them onto the article yet, certain facts are unnecesary when discussing a particular subject matter which is the bicycle kick. If we're discussing the color of the sky and why it's blue, you'd include 2+2=4. Sure it's a mathematical fact but where do you see the relation between the two?

	* Anyone that views this article will realize that the section on '''chilena''' is directly linked to the claim or the term, while the section on '''chalaca''' is a drawn out ] theory. ] (]) 19:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


	Sly comments? Hahaha. I don't see a sly comment on my earlier response. I stated what I saw and believed. Sly would have been me making a sarcastic comment or something of that ilk. The link, which directly helps relate the ancient status of sport in Peru, mentions tennis, therefore there exists every right to include a small excerpt about the link. Writing an English paper and writing in Misplaced Pages has its differences (especially in the English Misplaced Pages), but the concept is the same.
	*In both you need to have explanations supported by reliable sources.
	*In both you need to mention a certain something of the source for it to be validly use. Per se, I can't write something such as: "According to a recent study, people are fat in the United Sates for a series of reasons, but one of the major reasons comes due to ]." If source 1 just mentions hamburgers, then '''to further help elaborate the source, it needs to mention hamburgers'''; therefore the correct way to include it would be: "According to a recent study, people are fat in the United states due to a series of reasons, such as hamburgers, but one of the major reasons comes due to ]."--] (]) 21:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
	:"...that happened years after the first bicycle kick was performed during an international match has no direct correlation with the invention of the bicycle kick." According to this statement by you, the Italian and the Brazilian sections should not be in there because they were also performed years after the "first bicycle kick." Lol. How is that? According to the Chalaca sectoin, the first bicycle kick was performed also several years before Ramon Unzaga; does that mean that section should also go away? The games are there to help explain a series of things to the readers. 1.It helps explain why Alejandro Villanueva was a figure in Peruvian sports. 2.It helps explain the early international development of Peruvian sports (helping develop the modern reasoning of the claim of the chalaca). 3.It also helps explain why sports in Peru took a momentary stop in the late 1800s. All of these things are valuable to the reader.--] (]) 21:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
	:"You say that you record facts and input them onto the article yet, certain facts are unnecesary when discussing a particular subject matter which is the bicycle kick." Let's go step by step again: The chalaca, or bicycle kick, is a football move. '''All the facts''' in there speak about football (The only non-football mention is that of tennis, but I already explained its inclusion for the sport in Peru). If all the facts speak about football, is it still related? Yes, because the facts do not deal about modern football, it specifically stays in the early 20th century (even prior to the 1940s), and at this point Peruvian sports once again began to re-expand. If the facts dealt with years such as the 1950s or 60s (or ahead), then it would not make any sense, but this is not the problem. The last paragraph simply mentions all the modern support for the football move. Yet again, the two paragraphs dealing with sports development in Peru helps link the first and the last paragraphs.--] (]) 21:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
	:"If we're discussing the color of the sky and why it's blue, you'd include 2+2=4." Lol. Okay, so you state I'm writing ''sly comments'' and then you include this? You're quick to get angry about something but just as quick to aim it at someone else.--] (]) 21:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
	:] theory? The first thing to state is, seeing as though you apparently firmly believe the ''chilena'' is the 100% true way, all of the 4 proposals at the Attributions of invention are considered '''theories'''. Therefore there is no set official way to claim something at this point. Let's take some time to analyze what you claim to be a straw man theory...
	*Misplaced Pages writes this on the mater: "A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position...it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted." 1.This is not about trying to '''refute''' the other sections, it's about explaining to the reader the history of the Chalaca. 2.All the information in there has '''several and much''' evidential weight; I took the time to count the sources, it has about 28, and that out of 65 is nearly half of the article's sources. That breaks up the first 2 points on the straw man theory.--] (]) 21:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
	*Informal fallacy? Let's read what Misplaced Pages calls that: "An informal fallacy is an argument whose stated premises fail to support their proposed conclusion." Let's see here, as previously stated, the paragraphs are in there to help explain the history of the chalaca. Does it support the original paragraph? It certainly does: It further helps explain the history of the chalaca and its basis on football in Peru. The proposed conclusion? Simple, the bicycle kick was invented in Callao. Yet again, your claim at the straw man theory makes no sense. All I see you doing is seeking ] arguments for little to no reason. '''If you want to improve the article, do not destroy the section of the chalaca, improve the other sections.'''--] (]) 21:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
	Tennis has no reason being in this article. ] (]) 23:26, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
	:Would you care to explain your reasoning? Just stating a comment does not give a justified reason.--] (]) 23:51, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

	== Source Lying: Not Encyclopedic ==

	I made a thorough investigation and found out that these sources:

	*http://www.azcentral.com/lavoz/spanish/sports/articles/sports_204036.html
	*http://www.laprensagrafica.com/accion/1121429.asp
	*http://www.laaficion.com/olimpico_internacional/nota/35180
	*http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/1202735907109/noticia/Noticia/1986_87.htm
	*http://www.laprensa.com.ni/cgi-bin/print.pl?id=deportes-20020605-01
	*http://www.laprensa.com.bo/noticias/05-03-07/
	*http://www.listindiario.com.do/app/article.aspx?id=19195
	*http://www.radiocaravana.com/index.php?page=masinformacion&nid=12142&tp=1
	*http://www.colombia.com/futbol/autonoticias/Noticias/2008/08/17/DetalleNoticia43172.asp
	*http://www.venezuelaesfutbol.com/imprimir.php?id_noticia=1664
	*http://www.elpais.com.co/historico/abr022008/OPN/opi05.html
	*http://www.elpais.com.co/historico/abr022008/OPN/opi05.html

	These sources are sport articles that happen to mention the '''chilena''' once in their publication. Yet, this does not constitute for a whole nation. In order to prove yourself correct in the naming of the moves for different countries and languages, you must provide something such as in the '''chalaca''' where it provides a source that clearly states that the name is done in Ecuador and Colombia. The specific articles above clearly already show that the move is called a certain name by the nation that allegedly invented the move, therefore you do not need to prove such a thing that in Italian the move is called so and so, or that in Chile the move is called so and so, etc. '''You need to prove''' that other nations call it in such a way, but referencing a sports article that just happens to mention the move once does not constitute for a whole nation. '''You may''' use these things in the topics specific for each name '''if and only if''' you give specific notification of the newspaper stating such a thing. This rule applies to Misplaced Pages, so don't break it; and don't try to fool others with sources, it's cute, it's funny (one source talked about Playboy), but it's not good for the encyclopedia.--] (])
	:On another note, remember Misplaced Pages's policy of: '''Exceptional claims require exceptional sources''' If you're going to claim that all of Latin America or the Spanish speaking world calls the move something, you must either have a very good source or a series of good sources. Note that sticking a bunch of sources does not constitute for providing the correct sources. As you can see above, the person who added these sources apparently did not know that these sources did not specifically prove such a thing as a nation calling the move a certain something. I know it's tough to look for such things, but Misplaced Pages needs for you to find them otherwise the tab of "{{fact}}" will need to be placed.--] (])
	::What amazes me, after watching you steadily destroy this article over the last week or so is that you believe you're doing the right thing... ] (]) 13:36, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
	:::If you're refering to me, which I hope you're not, I've been working on this article just on this week.--] (]) 13:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
	::::Logic dictates that if a country features a sports article by an outlet of the media which uses the term ''chilena'' it is fairly understood that the term is known, used, and accepted. ] (]) 19:52, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Okay. I'm a reasonable person, I'll accept your standards if that's the logic you're using.--] (]) 20:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

	== Defending Interests ==

	As written in Misplaced Pages's page:

	"In a few cases, outside interests coincide with Misplaced Pages’s interests. An important example is that unsupported defamatory material appearing in articles may be removed at once. Anyone may do this, and should do this, and this guideline applies widely to any unsourced or poorly sourced, potentially libelous postings. In this case it is unproblematic to defend the interest of the person or institution involved. An entire article that presents as an attack piece or hostile journalism can be nominated for speedy deletion and will be removed promptly from the site. Those who post here in this fashion will also be subject to administrative sanction. Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons gives details on how biographical articles on living persons should be written.

	On the other hand, the removal of reliably sourced critical material is not permitted. Accounts of public controversies, if backed by reliable sources, form an integral part of Misplaced Pages's coverage. Slanting the balance of articles as a form of defence of some figure, group, institution, or product is bad for the encyclopedia. This is also the case if you find an article overwhelmed with correctly referenced, but exclusively negative information. This may present a case of undue weight, for example, when 90% of an article about a particular company discusses a lawsuit one client once brought against it. In such a case, such material should be condensed by a neutral editor, and the other sections expanded. One of the best ways to go about this is to request this on the talk page.

	The intermediate territory will naturally contain some grey areas. In many articles, criticism tends to collect in a separate section. There you may find properly referenced reports of well-publicised debates next to vague assertions that "Some people say X, while others think Y." Treat everything on its merits. Ask for reliable sources. Before removing a whole criticism section or article and distributing its parts over other sections of the article, which may be the best way ahead, consult other editors on the Talk page. Use crisp, informative edit summaries to detail what you have done, an excellent way to establish your reputation as a diligent editor. Raise any less obvious reasoning as a note on the talk page, with any additional links that support your edits."


	'''On the other hand, the removal of reliably sourced critical material is not permitted.''' The material in the Chalaca section of the article is reliably sourced material that has information that is critical for readers to see in order to better understand the claim of Callao. By removing such a thing, an important part of the section would be taken away and the section would make little sense. By engaging in an ] because a certain side wants to erase such an information, it is completely disrupting the stability of the article. When improving Misplaced Pages articles, the editors should be ] and not ]. Therefore, the best way to improve the article would be to expand and improve the other sections that are not the Chalaca section. An ] should be avoided, especially if you're going to start one because you want to obtain a version of your particular liking.--] (]) 16:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

	==Misinformation?==
	This section contradicts the refernce that it is citing.
	http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/BibVirtual/Tesis/Human/Alvarez_E_T/Cap2.htm

	''Other information shows that Peru holds a very old sports foundation, such as in tennis, and a football foundation that is older than Argentina's 1867 Buenos Aires Football Club and Chile's first recorded football club, Santiago Wanderers, in August 15, 1892. The oldest football club in Peru was founded in 1859 by English immigrants in Peru prior to the War of the Pacific. This club originally went by the name of Lima Cricket Club as it was based mainly around the sport of cricket, but its instruction on the sport of association football was just as old as that of cricket and, due to the demand of the football sector within the club, the club would eventually change its name to Lima Cricket & Football Club. Nonetheless, by the time the change in the name was made the club had already participated in several football events in Peru, prior to the War of the Pacific and one record being found for August 7, 1892, and people often refered to it as simply Lima Cricket. During the War of the Pacific, the destruction of various Peruvian towns and cities, including the raid of Lima, brought the spread of sport in Peru to a momentary stop.''

	The paragraph states that Argentina's 1867 Buenos Aires Football Club and Chile's first recorded football club, Santiago Wanderers, in August 15, 1892 are younger than Lima Cricket Club. The Cricket Club being an older institution than the two mentioned is true, but no where is it revealed that they were a football club prior to 1893. Nor is there any evidence of when they changed their name to Lima Cricket and Football club. The source states that the Union Cricket Club which was founded in December of 1893 was the first sports club to practice football.

	*''Fue el Unión Cricket el primer club peruano en practicar el fútbol cuando son admitidos Pedro Larrañaga y John Conder como socios, quienes fomentaron este deporte entre las actividades de la institución 118.''

	In reference to when Union Cricket was created

	*''En 1893 un grupo de jóvenes de la elite, interesado en las actividades deportivas organizadas por el club Lima Cricket, solicita a sus directivos les otorguen permiso para ingresar al campo de Santa Sofía a practicar deporte. En diciembre del mismo año aquellos jóvenes fundaron el Unión Cricket para practicar tenis y cricket115''

	After that the source provided goes on to include that the first club created for practicing football was the '''Association Foot Ball Club''' in 1897.

	*''2.2.1 Los primeros clubes de foot ball.

	''El Association Foot Ball Club fue el primer club fundado para la práctica del fútbol el 20 de mayo de 1897.''

	The source clearly provides their evidence that is in contrast to the unverifiable information prior to the first registered football being played in Lima in 1892 and before the War of the Pacific. Also no where does the information help corroborate Lima Cricket Club's claim that they participated in several football events.

	*''La información que ambos presentan, desgraciadamente no va acompañada de ningún elemento adicional que ayude a corroborarla, por ejemplo, avisos en diarios y revistas o fotografías de los jugadores. Sin embargo es muy probable que esta información sea cierta. ¿En qué nos basamos para considerar verosímil esta versión?.''

	-Another point, Santiago Wanderers is not Chile's first recorded football club. It is the oldest surviving but not the first. That information is never even mentioned on their official site.

	-Because this paragraph needs to be further verified, and since verifiability is a core content policy of ] it should be changed or removed until the problems are clarified. ] (]) 02:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)



	::Wow, seriously, you really have issues with trying to delete this information one way or another. First, in the Lima Cricket website it especifically states that their football program is as old as 1859. The other source, which is used to certify the impact of the War of the Pacific on sports has a different information on the matter, with its appropiate sources and therefore a rightful claim also, but the direct source of the association of Lima Cricket (Which is completely more reliable) refutes this particular idea of the other source. As far as the name change, in their history section they explain their original name; comparing that to the current name can obviously show that they had a change of name (It doesn't take a genious to figure that out). Moreover, on Lima Cricket's history section they show an "El Comercio" newspaper article validating their idea of the games they held. In conclusion, please learn to accurately read the sources before trying to single out things for your own convenience. Remember that although the information cited in the investigation done has its verified sources, Lima Cricket's information (being a direct source) still remains completely more valid. If they were lying, then they would have probably gotten sued by the government of Peru by this point and time. We are not the government of Peru, we simply take the most accurate information from the most direct and reliable source as correct.--] (]) 05:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

	:::I have read the sources you have provided and they have proven what you're adding wrong. A constructive suggestion would be for us to get arbitration from peers that are well versed in the Spanish language. I've presented the contradictions that are included within that section by copying and pasting information directly from the source. If you say that the Lima Cricket and Football club changed their name than I recommend you cite the exact source that states the name change. ] (]) 18:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

	::::If you simply enter the Lima Cricket & Football Club website it states: "Fundado en 1859" which in English would be "Founded in 1859." Later, they state:

	*"Se puede afirmar que el Club nació de la iniciativa de algunos ciudadanos ingleses residentes que laboraban en empresas británicas y que buscaban un lugar propicio para practicar los deportes que ellos jugaban en Inglaterra como el futbol, el rugby y el cricket y que eran desconocidos en el Peru de mediados del siglo XIX."
	*(English) "It can be confirmed that the club was born with the initiative of certain English citizens that resided and worked in British companies and sought a proper place where they could practice the sports they placed in England such as football, rugby, and cricket, and which were unknown in Peru in the middle of the 19th century (1850s)."
	*According to the website "www.cricketeurope4.net": "Cricket in Peru dates back to 1859 when the Lima Cricket and Football Club was founded."

	::::How is this misinformation? This is the oldest club in Peru and it has had football as a sport ever since its foundation! The other source obviously did not take into account this particular information. Just because you have suddenly learned how to copy and paste information, it does not make your statement correct. Why do you insist in erasing information from the chalaca section? We need peers that know about sports, not people that simply know Spanish.--] (]) 13:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

	:::::The fact that you have yet to unbelievably comprehend Misplaced Pages policy which is outlined in ] is amazing. You have provided two sources which according to you are conflicting. The official Lima Cricket Club in no way designates a specific date as to when they changed their name by adding football. You are putting two sources together and coming out with your own conclusions. Lima Cricket was founded as a sports club and the one source <ref>http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/BibVirtual/Tesis/Human/Alvarez_E_T/Cap2.htm
	</ref> clearly presents a detailed counter argument to your claim. It states that Union Cricket was the first sports club in Peru to practice football by adding a date and, yet, you still go back to the Lima Cricket Club website that offers no specific date and time, simply because for you it proves convenient. ] (]) 21:44, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

	::::::I'm sure ]'s way of making arguments must be a Chilean thing. You have edited my information to your likings and then comment on your own edits. Lol. The two sources are not conflicting. First, the source that states Union Cricket is the oldest source makes no mention of Lima Cricket. On the other hand, Lima Cricket's source states their year of foundation as "1859" and state that they were founded for people seeking to play "rugby, cricket, and association football." Moreover, a book on "Latin American Popular Culture" states an actual date of the first English vs. Peruvian football game in June 24, 1894 (organized by none other than Lima Cricket, the Englishmen's club in Peru). In other words, 5 sources state/show Lima Cricket as Peru's oldest football club, and the source you claim has a "counter argument" does not even mention Lima Cricket's foundation. What kind of game are you playing Selecciones? Why do you wish to delete all information on the chalaca? Why can't you find information that further validates the ''chilena'' as a rightfully historical term? Why do you erase my work and re-phrase it and then comment on your own words as if they were mine?--] (]) 03:12, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

	:::It's incredible how you lie and equate me to a dictator, by stating that the source which discusses the foundation of the Union Cricket Club makes no mention of Lima Cricket Club. What a way to contradict yourself further by failing to realize that the first English vs. Peruvian football game organized by the Lima Cricket Club occurred in 1894, it only proves that the football match happened even after Chile's first football clubs were established such as Valparaiso Football Club and Santiago Wanderers. Seriously do yourself a favor and stop pushing your pov. ] (]) 05:14, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

	::::And yet you keep trying to make yourself a victim. The year 1894 fits in perfectly with the time-span that the '''chalaca''' was allegedly made (further making Jorge Barraza's statement true). On the other hand, Ramonsito only allegedly does his little move in 1914. The difference is about 20 years. Gasps--] (]) 13:06, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

	:::::Jorge Barraza needs to have done himself a favor and actually given educated readers at least the title of the book that he was talking about so it can be verified, without that it's just a fable because there is no direct evidence to support it. The match you mention that happened in 1894 doesn't even mention a bicycle kick being done, so nice try. ] (]) 21:13, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

	::Also, on Santiago Wanderers, unless you can find a reliable and accurate source that shows any other older club from Chile, then Santiago Wanderers has to stay as the oldest club. They claim to be the oldest club in their website, and you cannot delete such a thing unless you find another source that finds an older football club.--] (]) 05:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

	:::The link never states that, so you're wrong. ] (]) 18:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

	::::The RSSSF feed lists it as the oldest. Moreover, there is nothing contradicting such a thing. If you're able to find a source that says they are not the oldest club, such as the two sources I have for Lima Cricket that says it is the oldest, then you cannot erase well-sourced information from Misplaced Pages.--] (]) 13:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

	::Once again you are relying on two sources that prove to be conflicting, the argument isn't about Lima Cricket Club being the oldest club in Peru, that in the revised version that I made includes that fact. On the other hand, the conflict exists when it started to practice football, one source states that it wasn't the first club, while the other source is vague and does not prove reliable because there is no ]. ] (]) 21:13, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

	:::What source states that it wasn't the first club???? WHERE IS THIS SOURCE???? WHAT WAS THE FIRST FOOTBALL CLUB OF CHILE???? OMG, please, if you know Santiago Wanderers are not the first club, then what is the first football club of Chile???--] (]) 03:12, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

	::::Well you proved yourself wrong with that one, since Valparaiso Football Club came before Santiago Wanderers, I at least give you credit for learning the error of your ways. ] (]) 21:13, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

	::Also, you are bringing up apples and organges because Santiago Wanderers were solely created as a football club not as a sports club, unlike Lima Cricket Club which primarily were created as a sports club with emphasis on cricket. Like I mentioned before the other source you provided never ackowledges it as the first sports club to practice football. The following two links provide more detail than what you for some reason are trying to push. <ref>http://html.rincondelvago.com/futbol-chileno.html</ref> <ref>http://www.chile.com/tpl/articulo/detalle/ver.tpl?cod_articulo=765</ref> ] (]) 21:44, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

	:::Apples and oranges? Lima Cricket's website state that they were founded on the basis of '''cricket, rugby, and football'''! Moreover, Lima Cricket was at first called "Salon de Comercio" and was founded in 1845, and then (according to Lima Cricket's official website) in 1859 the club was founded (which in this case would be re-made) on the basis of rugby, cricket, and football. You can't call this just a simple "Sports Club" as football was already being formally practiced by 1859. Furthermore, even at the point when they were called "Lima Cricket and Lawn Tennis Club" they organized a series of formal football games (as the sources show). Yet again, it's not my fault that Peruvian sports organizations happened to be highly varied (apparently unlike Chilean sports organizations). Other multi-sports organizations in Peru that also practiced football was Lawn Tennis Club (Tennis and Football) and Ciclista Lima (Biking and Football). On another note, the sources you gave me finally stated the oldest football club of Chile, in this case being the '''1892''' Valparaiso F.C.! If you do the math, that's 33 years of difference between the formal creation of ''Lima Cricket'' (based on Cricket, Rugby, and Football) and the first official football club of Chile. Wow. Of course, I expect that by the time you make a reply to this statement you will find yet another abnoxious idea that makes sense only to you, or you'll simply keep on stating the sources do not state such things (when they clearly do) and that one source "counter attacks" the other 5 sources (even though that one source does not even mention Lima Cricket's foundation; while the other 5 state that Lima Cricket is the oldest football club of Peru), or you'll simply re-arrange my statement and claim I wrote those things. Here's some mind-destroying questions that might disturb you for a while: Where and why do you think "Union Cricket" got their name from? Doesn't "Lima Cricket" sound close to "Union Cricket"? Of course, these questions have no sources attached to them, but just some food for the brain. The sources do show that Lima Cricket is the oldest football club of Peru, though.--] (]) 03:12, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

	::::Quick question, what year did Lima Cricket Club change their name to Lima Cricket and Football Club? ] (]) 04:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

	:::::Quick answer. In 1900 they changed their name to Lima Cricket and Football Club; they were founded on the basis of football, cricket, and ruby; and they were capable of organizing football games when their name was Lima Cricket & Lawn Tennis Club. Therefore, what prevents them from having made football games even before 1865 (when their name was not Lima Cricket & Lawn Tennis Club)? Obviously, they did not need the part "& Football Club" to organize football games, and that has been proven by two sources.--] (]) 12:58, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

	::::::There is a discrepancy between two sources regarding the name change. The book you list states 1900, while the official website states the proposed name change occurred in 1906. Just to further clarify a point, you include that Lima Cricket Club is a very old sports club which is valid, but how do you equate their history to other places in Chile that were also practicing the sport of football such as the Mackay and Sutherland school of Cerro Alegre (founded in 1851) which wasn't a sports club nor a football team but still practiced football. I mean why not bring up Uruguay which I am almost positive has an historic sports clubs of their own? As of now the sources you include are actually building more of a basis to Peruvian football history, yet, lack an understanding of football history elsewhere especially in Chile. ] (]) 21:13, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

	==International recognition section==
	The purpose is to divide the type of information that is contained in each corresponding section. For example the chalaca section starts off with a claim of origin, followed by a history of Peruvian football, concluding with recognition of the name. In order to facilitate the flow of content the division is done to differentiate the topics being discussed. The same with the chilena section which starts off with the claim of origin, followed by sources that support the claim and ending with the recognition from various countries. ] (]) 21:40, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 18:51, 10 April 2024

Bicycle kick has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
November 27, 2015	Good article nominee	Not listed
November 28, 2015	Good article nominee	Listed
February 13, 2016	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
October 30, 2016	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
July 9, 2018	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
A fact from this article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on December 22, 2015.The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the bicycle kick (pictured) is one of association football's most celebrated skills?
Current status: Good article

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Bicycle kick article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

This article is rated GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

South America: Peru Low‑importance

	Latin America portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject South America, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to South America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.South AmericaWikipedia:WikiProject South AmericaTemplate:WikiProject South AmericaSouth America
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Peru (assessed as Low-importance).

Football Mid‑importance

	Association football portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Association football on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FootballWikipedia:WikiProject FootballTemplate:WikiProject Footballfootball
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Guild of Copy Editors

This article was copy edited by Twofingered Typist, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 8 October 2016.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors

Previous copyedits:
/
	This article was copy edited by Drcrazy102 on 29 November 2015.

It is requested that a video clip or video clips be included in this article to improve its quality.

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Bicycle kick. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Bicycle kick at the Reference desk.

Archives

Archive 1	Archive 2	Archive 3
Archive 4

Origin - Unzaga?

This article is tendentious. It completely hides the true inventor of the bicycle kick, Ramón Unzaga: "The important seaport of Chile in Talcahuano also has a bicycle kick tradition dating back to the 1910s, when Ramón Unzaga, a Basque athlete born in Spain and a naturalized Chilean supposedly invented the maneuver known locally as chorera (also alluding to the local demon)? In addition, confuses the reader with respect to the death of David Arellano: "his untimely death on that tour due to an injury caused by one of his acrobatics"? This is not true. Arellano died of peritonitis after receiving a strong blow, product of the fall of a rival in his stomach (Arellano previously suffered from a hernia). Many efforts to hide the 'chilena', its origion and difussion. A-orionis (talk) 17:31, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

The maneuvre's origin is unclear, as indicated by the sources, so no assertion is made as to where exactly it was invented. Only possibilities and likelihoods are mentioned.

Arellano did, in fact, die as a result of his acrobatics. Certainly, his "rival" did not murder him.--MarshalN20 🕊 21:18, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

The maneuvre's origin is unclear only for one part involved. Theory about the 'chilena': Player: Ramón Unzaga Asla. Date: January, 1914. Field: El Morro, Talcahuano. What did Unzaga say?:

"On two occasions the referee charged me a  foul  for a luxury jump I gave to reject the ball, alleging that I committed foul against the opposing player del Río. This same player took advantage of my movement and the referee charged me the foul. I was forced to observe the referee's error, claiming that recognized judges had not penalized me". (El Sur, Concepción, December 31, 1918).

Theory about the 'chalaca': Player: ? Date: ? Field: ? What did Jorge Barraza say? (The journalist who supports this theory): I have no doubt that it is 'chalaca', but the world already knows it as 'chilena' and it is difficult to change it. Rare that in Peru they have not looked for the proofs that demonstrate it. (twit dated on april 4, 2018). Regarding Arellano, He died as a result of an unfortunate accident. Nobody talks about a murder. https://elpais.com/deportes/2018/04/11/actualidad/1523445557_582852.html Greetings. A-orionis (talk) 01:28, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

For specific information regarding Arellano's death, the article David Arellano is available for improvement. The source cited indicates Arellano's acrobatic showboating is what ultimately caused the injury that, in turn, led to his untimely death. This is relevant information about an article concerning an acrobatic football skill, which he reportedly performed in numerous occasions.

As for the origin of the bicycle kick, the sources indicate that this is unclear. Misplaced Pages is not the place to right great wrongs.

By the way, Unzaga's cited statement is vague about what exactly he performed that the referee charged as a foul.--MarshalN20 🕊 01:51, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

"After Unzaga demonstrated his aptitude for the jaw-dropping stunt several times during the 1916 and 1920 Copa America tournaments, many Spanish Speakers took to calling it a "chilena" a designation that endures to this day. https://www.fifa.com/the-best-fifa-football-awards/news/the-bicycle-kick-football-s-most-spectacular-sight-2862019 People already know. Greetings A-orionis (talk) 04:37, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing that article. To quote it, "But whether it emerged from Brazil, Chile or Peru, all the evidence does seem to point towards South American origins."

Basadre never writes about the bicycle kick, nonetheless, so the article itself is not free from errors.

Anyhow, unless you have any other points to address about the article, this discussion seems to have run its course.

Regards.--MarshalN20 🕊 05:03, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

I wish you success with your legends A-orionis (talk) 19:31, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Alright. Thank you.--MarshalN20 🕊 22:04, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

definition

I would argue that the bicycle kick & scissors kick are not the same. I fail to see any 'bicycle' movement in the scissor kick in which the legs are essentially straight. The bicycle kick when I played was a method of getting over the ball when it was above ground level but below waist height. The player jumped in the air, did a cycling motion with his feet and connected with the ball. The obvious difference is that in the scissors kick the ball arrives above waist height, with the bicycle kick it arrives below waist height.Labocetta (talk) 13:46, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

English football fans have been getting this wrong for decades. Ask a Spanish speaker what "La Bicicleta" is and you'll get a totally different move. After all, the South Americans invented La Bicicleta and the English took the name and used it for a totally different move, which is known throughout the World as the scissor kick. In Spanish speaking countries the Scissor or Overhead kick is known as "La Chilena". However, getting a know-all English fan to admit their error is pointless as they never will. Prudens Hominem (talk) 17:28, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

"La Bicicleta" and "a Bicycle kick" while having superficially similar names have never been confused for each other. Hence why the Portuguese describe the latter as "pontapé de bicicleta" rather than just "bicicleta". The Spanish "Bicicleta" is what we refer, in English, as a "Step over". Now you can ask why that article doesn't reference the Spanish name for the same move, but claiming that the "English" have confused an overhead kick with a dribbling motion is not only very unlikely, but also not supported by any reliable sources. Koncorde (talk) 19:54, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Furthermore, asserting what "Spanish speaking countries" call the move is problematic. As indicated in the article, the name varies depending on location. Trying to impose a name over another just because that's what you think it should be called isn't correct. Let everyone enjoy the game their own way.--MarshalN20 🕊 21:44, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Bicycle kick is either jumping up, or falling backwards, and using your feet to strike the ball that is above your head. In both cases the ball arrives above shoulder height (usually) and you are using your momentum to drive your feet at a ball that you otherwise cannot strike.

The bicycle motion was in the generation of that momentum, usually while bringing up the kicking leg after using to to propel upwards, the other leg is brought down sharply and are in a cycling motion. Fundamentally it might look like a bicycle motion, or scissor motion of the legs. However a lot of players achieve it just with straight legs, or do so at a position somewhere between waist and shoulder. The common theme would be both feet from the ground and an expectation that the body is at least horizontal.

What you describe (which sounds similar to Di Canio's volleyed goal against Wimbledon, or McManaman's CL goal for Real Madrid) may also be described as a scissor kick, or scissor motion, or may have a cycle motion with the leg but it isn't what this article is about, nor supported by a reliable source. Koncorde (talk) 16:58, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Gareth Bale?

No mention of Gareth Bale's wonder goal in the 2018 Champions League Final? For me and many others superior to the Ronaldo goal from the same year which is included in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.159.140.225 (talk) 13:40, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Bicycle kick and Scissors kick.

"Bicycle kick" and "Scissors kick" should not be exchangeable.

A bicycle kick is an overhead kick if the player's back is closer to the ground than his side when performing the feat.

A bicycle kick is a scissor kick if his side is closer to the ground than his back when performing the feat. The orientation of the body of the player won't allow the ball to be above his head. So, there is no way it can be called an "overhead" kick.

The problem is that both feats involve a scissors-like movement. So, terms like "bicycle kick" and "scissors kick" are somewhat ambiguous. Neither would make good "umbrella" term, in my opinion. But, I guess its use is too spread in English.

Overhead kick is a good name if the ball is above the head when performing it. It is called chilena or, chalaca in Spanish.

Scissors kick, in my opinion should be used for what in Spanish is called tijera or, media chilena.

In the Spanish Misplaced Pages there are two entries as you can realize. So, why should they be the same in English? At least, there should be two sub-sections in this article.

In Spain, they initially used the terms, "tijera" and "media tijera", respectively, in the early days of these feats (which made things confusing). But, that didn't last too long. They, later, adopted the most common terminology used in South America.

Additionally, I consider the term "bicycle kick" to be misleading or too vague. In my opinion, it never resembles a pedaling-like movement. Even further, as it has already been noted at this talk page, "la bicicleta", in Spanish, is a feint used to puzzle an opposite marking player in an attempt to clear him or a goalkeeper before shooting to goal.

Source: I am Ecuadorian. (Yes, Ecuador is in South America) Do I need additional credentials?

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 04:59, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

This is the English language article, so everything is defined by the usage in the English language. This article is about the Overhead Kick only (per all the photographs and the diagrams). The reference to a Scissor Kick is because of the leg motion, however almost no English commentators would typically use the term scissor kick to describe an overhead kick, they do often use Bicycle Kick however. It is mentioned in this article because some sources do use the term however, because functionally the technical aspects are the same. Nobody in English speaking would use the term "la bicicleta" to confuse the subject as it isn't a kick. Koncorde (talk) 15:34, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

It's not clear to me what exactly is being suggested as a change. Regardless, Koncorde is correct in that the entry here is a reflection of the usage in English. Other languages are mentioned for their interesting history in relation to the maneuver, but that's about it.--MarshalN20 🕊 22:22, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

This also happens in Australian rules football ...

Soccer is not the only football code which has this move. It is also in Australian rules football. But mention of it keeps getting removed. There are some prominent Goal of the Year (AFL) examples.

Here is a very recent example: https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/watch-collingwood-big-man-brody-mihocek-pulls-off-miracle-soccer-style-scissor-kick-to-seal-win-c-10574774 Rulesfan (talk) 04:23, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Disagree. In your example, Mihocek kicked the ball softly over his head while falling backwards with one foot still on the ground - does not meet the bicycle kick definition. At best, it occurs occasionally by accident in Australian football, so far short of its status as a highly celebrated soccer skill that it does not bear mentioning. Aspirex (talk) 04:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Categories: