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Revision as of 17:57, 2 September 2008 editPeter Damian (old) (talk | contribs)2,336 edits →Comment on civility← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 15:11, 30 December 2024 edit undoBishonen (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators80,326 editsm Reverted edit by 108.201.25.192 (talk) to last version by MediaWiki message deliveryTag: Rollback
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	;Current discussion summaries:
			{{tmbox|type=notice|style=background-color:#ffe0a0|image=]|text=<p>'''IMPORTANT NOTE - PLEASE READ IF YOU ARE HERE TO ASK A QUESTION ABOUT AN ARTICLE, PAGE, OR ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION:'''<br>''I work in a wide range of Misplaced Pages areas, including article improvement, policies, abusive users, and disputes. I've been an editor {{#expr:{{#time:Y}}-2004-{{#ifexpr:{{#time:md}}>={{#time:md|12 July}}|0|1}}}} years, an administrator over {{#expr:{{#time:Y}}-2007-{{#ifexpr:{{#time:md}}>={{#time:md|19 January}}|0|1}}}} years, a past CheckUser and Arbitrator, and an OTRS volunteer since 2007, so I can often help with many Misplaced Pages problems.</p><p>In particular I help newcomers, administrators and experienced editors/users who want to improve and resolve tricky articles/disputes/problems, or where articles have poor content, or cover ]. Any issue or Misplaced Pages question is fine. '''<u></u>''' or else '''<u>]</u>''' – I will always notice messages on this page and I usually answer quite quickly. However I can be busy or away from the net, so it's fine to ask someone else if you haven't had a reply.</p><p>You can also ask questions at the ] or the chat channel.''</p>}}
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			;Current discussion summaries:
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	Misplaced Pages IRC channel:
			== Rich Shapero ==
	Services Link:
			Hi! Would you mind reviewing your close of ]? ] and ] describe what types of events are suitable to be the main topic of an article, not what is suitable as article content. Or are you saying that every article should be purged of events that doesn't meet that policy and that guideline, even if they are properly referenced? As far as notability goes the application of the GNG is always somewhat subjective in the disputed cases and I was surprised to see you simply going with your own interpretation over the rather strong consensus. Cheers/ ] (]) 09:27, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
	Others:
	] -- ] -- ] -- ] -- ] -- ] -- ] -- ] -- ]
			: (edit conflict) Sure. Slightly fully explanation will go on its talk page tomorrow when I'm home, and I'll review it as well to see if I still agree with myself. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 11:28, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
	]
			==Deletion review for ]==
	A/guide: ], ] |
			An editor has asked for a ] of ]. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. <!-- This originally was from the template {{subst:DRVNote|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~ --> ] (]) 10:51, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
	Contribs tool: | plainlinks: '<nowiki>Span style="plainlinks"</nowiki>'
	==Request for Assistance==		== Eh ==
	Greetings! On your User Page you say, "If you need help, I'm one of the people to ask." I need some assistance. I have had some difficulty regarding a group of users that are engaging in extremely frustrating and very un-Wikilike behaviour: edit-warring, persistent incivility, disruptive ], pervasive refusal to ], inappropriate use of automated tools to revert good faith edits without discussion, tag-teaming, etc. ... the list is long. I am hesitant at this point to name names as these users "seem" to be in the habit of monitoring my edits. (This is evidenced by their immediate reverts of my edits on articles which they in some cases had no prior history of editing.) I realize they will probably read this, but as I am not yet naming names, it will only be their guilty conscience (if they have one) that would indicate to them who I mean. At any rate, would you be able to offer some assistance? If so, how would you suggest we proceed? If not, I would greatly appreciate any suggestions. Thanks in advance! -- ] (]) 08:21, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
	: Responded on users talk page. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 20:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
	::More ? ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 23:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
	:::Now, now, OM, just because FT2 has shown a clear predilection and strong penchant for secret tribunals there's no need to assume that he's doing so here: I'm sure he's merely trying to assuage Danny's fears. It's the AGF thing to do. ]<sup>]</sup> 16:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
			I'm now seeing the <tt>'Del/undel selected revisions'</tt>, was the bug fixed? If not, we should probably quickly act to disseminate information about this and caution against using it on log actions subject to breaking per your concerns. –]] 13:55, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
	== Mostly back ==
			: Yes, and almost certainly not (I'm CCed on bugzilla for the relevant threads). Going to ask around. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 19:46, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
			::See ]. –]] 19:52, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
			Update - RevisionDelete has been enabled for admins (as most here know) - but only for one revision per action. The checkboxes that allow revdelete on multiple revisions in one action are disabled for admins.
	I now have email and various tools back working. Still short of some things, but the basics are there and seem to be stable. I think I can begin to class myself as "mostly back" now. Email filtering is still broken and needing redoing, various configuring is still needed, and the last couple of hardware components are still not in stock, but that's about the only items left.
			The underlying bug issue has not yet been fixed. As best I can guess the idea is that limiting RevDel to one revision per action should stand a chance of being workable. Needs testing though.
			My tentative conclusion from testing it so far - log links do still break with deletion, in some cases badly, but the damage is mitigated by the fact it's limited to one revision per action. This does make it much easier to figure out and fix any issues, if the problems described were to happen.
			I am continuing to test it and check how the issues stand, I will then post a summary on-wiki. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 20:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
			:Hrm. Unless I misunderstand you, I think you're incorrect when you say ''"The checkboxes that allow revdelete on multiple revisions in one action are disabled for admins"'' was done by checking off three revisions and using the Del/undel selected button. –]] 20:39, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
	Thanks to all -- and apologies for the many things I wanted to deal with but couldn't during the last 4 weeks. I'll get going on the backlog as of this evening.
			: Thats odd. I did exactly the same (I think) and it refused to. Werdna said he enabled "single revision delete" too. If you're on IRC can we catch up there to try and figure out together what's going on here? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 21:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
			::Hm, I can't get on IRC right now. Maybe later this evening, if my son doesn't monopolize me =) But I was definitely able to hide 3 at once: –]] 21:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
	]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:32, 3 August 2008 (UTC)		::: Ok, /notice or privmsg me or email later then when around. In the meantime I've posted an update at AN to try and mitigate any issues and provide some kind of suggested good practice until we're all more sure what will happen. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 22:07, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
			::::You might want to ping NawlinWiki who is deleting revisions like they are going out of style. –]] 22:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
	: FT2, you might look into ]. Some time ago I vowed to keep nothing of value on my own computers, in case it crashes or gets stolen, and because I switch back and forth between two of them. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
			::::Sorry I never got around to IRC, I didn't really have much face time with the PC last night. –]] 18:05, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
	:: Perhaps he can also try to do something about writing up some of the Workshop in the now (almost) three month old C68-FM-SV on the proposed decisions page? I know that you are already taxed from the OM affair, but the committee is not helping anything by allowing this to drag on. Frankly, removing Felonious Monk's and SlimVirgin's administrator privileges, reversing the abusively gamed Cla68 RFA, and giving both Guy and Viridae civility restrictions is probably the most sensible outcome. It would also send a strong message that abusing administrator status as a way to game the system is not going to be tolerated nor will screaming ''cyberstalking'' give you a free pass from being held accountable for your actions. --20:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
			Hi. I was reading AN and followed the thread to here. When the revDel feature is stable, I'd like to see <span class="plainlinks"></span> page history cleaned up. There are many revs that quite clearly meet ] (which is an <span class="plainlinks"></span> anchor due to it starting with a digit). It's the work of our most unwelcome vandal and his /b-tards. I started the page and could put you in touch with the founder of the organization (who is shocked at what is in the page history) Thanks, ] 02:35, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
	::: Um. I have crossed swords with Felonious once or twice, he seemed a decent sort. Much of the animus seems to spring from the visceral hatred some pro-intelligent design editors seem to have for those who support the scientific rationalist view. I wish I knew what it is that people have against SlimVirgin, I've never really cared enough to find out what started that whole shitstorm. I would not object to a civility restriction, but I think you will be hard pressed to find any examples of "rhetorical exuberance" from me lately; the concept of incivility is atrociously difficult to pin down and separate from perfectly normal human exasperation (something on which Giano and I agree absolutely, if my exchanges with him are anything to go by). Misplaced Pages is not kindergarten, after all, and sometimes we must correctly identify the type of earth-turning implement. Still, if anyone could come up with a workable civility guideline that Giano could get behind and be inspired by, I would say that would be a huge boon for the project. We urgently need a framework which does not protect endlessly polite POV-pushers from the consequences of their vexatiousness, and which recognises the difference between ill-temper and ill-intent. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 20:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
			: Main issues on that page fixed now. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:23, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
			:: Thank you, that's fine. I know there were issues there and with me that required careful judgment and that is why I brought this to you. Cheers, ] 01:49, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
			*Any comments on ] ? –]] 13:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
	::::One framework I find useful is to distinguish between polite words and polite behavior. It is easy to indentify impolite words, but it takes much more time and insight to see impolite behaviors, such as "polite" POV pushing, endless needling and provocation, and trolling. We need to target the substance of incivility, not just the form. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
			== Mobbing ==
	== NLP articles for deletion ==
			Penbat has, IMO without regard for the ongoing discussion and apparent current lack of consensus on the Mobbing discussion page, restored his edits with an edit summary and notes on the Talk page that cast my edits as Vandalism. I would greatly appreciate your feedback and/or intervention. Thank you for your assistance. ] (]) 20:29, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
	Dear FT2: per ] I am notifying you, as the original creator and good-faith guardian and defender of the NLP pages, that I am listing all of these for deletion (with the exception of the NLP page itself, for which I recommend a substantial rewrite in accordance with Misplaced Pages principles on OR, blatant promotion of a commercial product and so on).
			I have opened a ] regarding Penbat's conduct towards me, given that the WP:AN discussion was archived without resolution and Penbat's aggressive behavior towards me has continued. Penbat has been notified. ] (]) 04:48, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
	See ]. ] (]) 10:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
			I have opened a ] regarding Doniago's bizarre aggressive timewasting conduct towards me. Doniago's aggressive behavior towards me has continued. Doniago has been notified. --] (]) 22:58, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
	== TfD nomination of ] ==
	] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ]. Thank you.<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ''']''' 16:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
			== Revision hiding on already deleted page ==
	==AfD nomination of NLP Modeling==
	]An editor has nominated ], an article which you have created or worked on, for ]. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "]").
			Hi FT2!
	Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at {{#if: | ] | ] }} and please be sure to ] with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>).
			Any reason in particular you changed the visibility of a revision that was already deleted? I do not immediately see the usefulness of this, as the page was already only visible to administrators, but perhaps I'm missing something. Regards, <code>]</code> <small>(])</small> 02:17, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
	You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the ] template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you.
			: It made an obnoxious edit summary less "in your face" to a passing admin reader. No ultimate net benefit as you rightly notice and no real net cost. Probably best not done on deleted edits, in case the log bug impacts it, so feel free to reverse the visibility hiding and thanks, on reflection you're right. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 02:40, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
			::Ok, thanks for the clarification. Since it technically meets RD2 I do not see a need make another log entry just to undo it. I just wondered if there was some profound reasoning behind it. Regards, <code>]</code> <small>(])</small> 03:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
	*You're the only person arguing for the article to be kept, but you've written roughly half of the text on the discussion page. Perhaps it's time to take a step back? I find that on wiki, the harder you argue for things, the more it puts people off agreeing with you. Best, ''']''' 14:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
			== Request for Comment needing your input ==
	== I see your most recent contributions have made Misplaced Pages Review ==
	Best. ] (]) 06:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
			Hi, I'd like to ask for your input here: ]. Recently you commented on Minphie's conduct and we ask if you could come and give feedback at ] as the editor appears not to have taken any heed of the community's feedback on his approach to editing. If you don't remember your exact interactions with Minphie, it is detailed in the RfC/U page. Thankyou for your time, --] (]) 23:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
	Also, could you confirm, as my request on the AfD page, that you have no COI here? I have no problem with the fact you have a certification in NLP (or appear to have), but it would be unethical, as a sitting member of Arbcom, to be involved in this AfD were you to have any commercial interest in promoting this product on-wiki. ] (]) 06:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
			==paid position?==
	: 1. WR users are entitled to have a view, obviously. I tend not to go off-site much, though. If it is relevant to the wiki it will have been posted by some editor, on-wiki, or by email. I gather many people's edits get discussed there; I'd be amazed as an admin and arbitrator if from time to time mine weren't.
			Mr. Godwin is paid by Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages also presumably pays the water and electric company. Perhaps, CU and oversight could be a paid position. Hire people and bond them. I heard Misplaced Pages had a big budget so hiring one professional checkuser could go far to address the problem. One professional CU working 8 hours a day could probably clear the CU board quickly. Misplaced Pages is in San Francisco. I am sure there are hundreds of computer science graduates from Stanford University and the University of California, Berkeley who might apply for the one full time position.
			This is one of many "other" solutions that are possible. Good luck in picking a solution! ] (]) 19:26, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
	: 2. Confirmed I have no commercial interest in the topic, nor any COI. On the very few occasions I have edited a topic where I might have partiality, I place the connection details voluntarily on-wiki when commencing editing the topic to enable other editors to be aware. This is rare though as generally I avoid editing topics I have material involvement in, for transparency.
			: It's actually been considered. And more than once, rejected. I'm not sure the links, but it's come up a few times. Mainly the issue is that so much of checkuser relies upon knowing your community - like a good police officer is most successful if they are on a "turf" they know very well and can spot stuff that doesn't quite fit. Paid checkusers could manipulate the data but would not as a rule have the knowhow where to go, what it might hint at, what behaviors it might link to, all the dozens of things checkusers as seasoned enwiki admins can draw upon. A second problem is Misplaced Pages is in many languages. So to do this WMF would potentially need to employ many dozens of people in many languages. Finally there is a lot more than one person's work to do. Even full time you'd need several. I guess (but don't know for sure) that these are some reasons it hasn't ever gained traction. It sounds good but fails on practical value. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 20:54, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
			::Thank you for your words of wisdom. An administrator who I regard as wise has taken a wikibreak. In view of your wise answer, I come with another question to you, instead of to him.
	: (One exception I can think of - I edit on ], which I play at tournaments, but have never edited it in a manner deemed controversial, and would pull back to the talk page in case of dispute for that reason. Update - I've done some 30,000 edits, and also many originated from requests for help or following edit wars/disputes on whatever articles it happened to be, so I obviously can't be 100% certain, but none come to mind.)
			::] has been deemed not notable enough for an article despite more than a year of extensive international coverage. Other accused murders with far less coverage have been deemed notable for separate articles by AFDs. Futhermore, there are very non-notable people, like ], some of whose article have been subject to AFDs, never resulting in delete. Some may want to keep memorials to the Guantanamo Bay prisoners despite WP not being a memorial.
	: ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 10:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
			::I do not seek drama. Many might say "go ahead and nominate some articles for deletion", but I am more interested in seeking wisdom on how to achieve consistency. Wise editor, FT2, I seek a tiny portion of your wisdom. ] (]) 19:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
	:: I'd say stick to bridge, but having seen some of the arguments that can break out around rival bidding systems maybe that would be no better! <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 21:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
			::: I can give it a go. I can see why the case might seem like a good candidate for an article. There has been a lot of coverage of Knox, over an extended period, from several angles, and the coverage has beyond doubt focused on her as a person not just the murder case she was involved in.
	::: Gee thanks, Guy! :) I'll write that one down :) ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 21:25, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
			::: There are two big reasons it's likely to fail. Despite the notoriety and attention, she is still basically only notable for the one event, and ] says we would normally have an article on the event. Sometimes we do have an article on the person as well as the event, but usually that's when we can't cover the person's life with the event, and their whole life becomes worth documenting or such. In this case it's a judgment call but probably still a BLP1E case, what's useful to cover about her purely pertains to the criminal case, its prelude, its aftermath.
	==AfD nomination of Rapport (NLP)==
	]I have nominated ], an article you created, for ]. I'm sorry, this really is nothing personal (I think you know that). I try to go by content not by the contributors of an article, as I would not want to be prejudiced by any personal feelings about individual - I had no idea you'd started it until the Twinkle script left this message. I'm afraid that a comment made at the Modeling AfD caused me to look at this, and I really do think that this is giving undue weight to an interpretation of a common word which is not really markedly distinct from the meaning as discussed in ]. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 20:50, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
	: You wont catch me arguing hard. I commented early in the second AFD agreeing with Thatcher, that this was a subtopic easily covered by overlapping other topics . It's a fairly good call. Not only there's nothing there that can't fit into either ], ] or ], but from what I remember there isn't likely to be much added, and looking back with a few more years perspective on AFD's and editing, I (more than likely) concur. It'll have coverage and reliable sources, the issue on this one (for me) is ]: if multiple articles cover similar or closely related topics, we usually try to avoid pointless "sprawl" . Supported, good catch. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 21:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)		::: Second, especially for criminals (or alleged criminals) we often play a bit cautious in articles. Do we really need an article on the criminal, when most of what's relevant for encyclopedic purposes is covered under the crime. That kind of thing. So yeah, borderline case but if I were forced to choose I would probably side with BLP1E, simply because there is not one thing of wider notice about her, except the one event for which she's in the press and its aftermath. Caveat, I haven't thoroughly researched the matter or the media though. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 22:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
			== Your "immediate" proposals ==
	: (edit conflict) In simple terms, I don't have a problem with deletions, or keeps. I have a problem with questionable decisions though. It's good when someone who doesn't have a personal interest in the matter (or matters surrounding it) makes the decision. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 21:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
			It's starting to look complicated. Is it not possible to simplify? My perennial fear is that people won't bother to think it through unless it's simple. ] ] 13:02, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
	:: Are you kidding Guy, FT2 originated nearly all the articles on NLP, plus helped in booting off who objected to this crap being put onto the world's most famous online encylopedia. Get real. ] (]) 21:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
			: Good call - better now? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 13:24, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
	:: Oh yes and rather gives the lie to FT2's claim that the NLP article got irretrievably messed up in June 2006 after the POV warriors (i.e. anti-NLP) editors spoilt it. The trail for June clearly shows FT2 and other NLP practitioners complete whitewash of the article. Look at how the article is before they get to work, then how it is afterwards. Laughable. ] (]) 21:41, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
			===Resolution to the problem===
	:::What about leaving FT2 alone don't you understand? ]] 21:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
			Looking throught the comments, if someone were to declare "all the candidates have been appointed", this would not be the consensus. If someone were to declare "some sort of new election", others would be upset, some of them believing that this is an emergency where CU/OS must be appointed within the hour or there will be a massive number of deaths or injury (true emergency).
			Choosing either is not selecting the consensus.
	:::: What about the last unblock don't you understand? I have been continually harassed by this guy, or by people he has encouraged to harass me. Please stop this harasssment of ME. You don't seem to able to distinguish principled criticism of editors on Misplaced Pages from what you call 'harassment'. Go and work for the Chinese, your methods would suit them fine. ] (]) 05:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
			When there is no consensus, compromise is sometimes necessary.
	:::: I still don't see any reply to my perfectly legitimate criticism of FT2's claim that the article was 'messed up' beyond retrieval in 2006. The June 2006 record shows that FT2 and others completely reverted all the changes that had been made, including the removal of perfectly valid citations. ] (]) 05:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
			Disclaimer: Brainstorming is when one makes suggestions without being afraid of being called an idiot. In doing so, an innovative suggestion may be made. The following is brainstorming.
	::::: A number of users including myself have told you what to look for, and where. You have decided each time, that you know better and they must all be biased. So there seems little point re-explaining again. Pretty much ''everyone'' uninvolved who has looked at HeadleyDown's editing concluded the same, and mostly it's been ''other'' people agreeing with the evidence.
			There could be the declaration that no new CU/OS are appointed. However, the title of "Provisional OS" or "Provisional CU" could be appointed to a limited number of people. The title of "provisional" is to highlight that they are different from the others. They will be under greater public review, have a limited term, and must submit a report of their actions daily (posted on their talk page). In the interim, there will be new elections as a concession to those who say that election rules should not be significantly altered after an election has taken place.
	::::: You've been pointed to similar sources. You've moved to co-edit with the same banned user on multiple topics, and of course the last 48 hours of pointed posts. Doesn't it strike you that echoing the stances and edits of someone whose editing got them blocked and permabanned by ''multiple'' admins under ''multiple'' names for virulent dishonesty and heavy pov warring, is unlikely to be a Good Thing for any editor.
			This proposal will be liked by nobody but incorporates ideas of several opinions. Also, it is brainstorming.
	::::: I'm not inclined to keep trying. Headley tried wrapping everyone up in distraction too, and we know that game, those who are used to him. You need to go away, go re-read, figure it out for yourself, and mostly, listen to all the others who have tried to tell you. Almost nobody who has dealt with him as an uninvolved party is likely to want to deal with him again - whether directly, or indirectly. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 13:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
			This proposal is also among the very few that attempt to reach compromise.
	:::::: Please don't make these veiled threats of blocking or banning. Let me make a positive suggestion. You have offered mediation - your choice, if you like. I would like a full and open discussion about the circumstances surrounding Headley and Flavius' block in Q2 2006. Most people I have spoken to do not remember who these people are. Does that sound reasonable? ] (]) 18:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
			Good luck in trying to find a fair idea that has widespread support. We are cheering you on! ] (]) 16:46, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::Peter, FT2 was not even an administrator at that time, much less an arbitrator (He was made an admin in January 2007 ). The admins who made the blocks (for bad behavior, then for sockpuppetry) are documented at the bottom of ], and seem to be mostly Katefan0 (who has retired) and {{user|Woohookitty}}, who is currently active. While you are welcome to advocate on their behalf, Headley and Flavius must make their own appeals to Arbcom--I doubt very much that Arbcom would be interested in discussing it as a theoretical matter unless the users actually make a request to be unbanned. Assuming they do that, FT2 would recuse from hearing the case and would participate as an editor only. I believe the Arbcom is now taking active steps to exclude arbitrators from the private discussions of cases in which they are involved (through the use of separate mailing lists) which is an improvement from the past. ] 19:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
			: The problem is that in the gentlest way, this doesn't work. You need a better understanding of how CU/OS operates and what these functions do. I'll try to explain.
	<undent>
	Thatcher, I agree there are a number of issues to sort out here.
			: The ultimate appointing body for this community is Arbcom itself (40% of CU/OS are arbs and another 25-30% are ex-arbs). Arbcom has varied how they are appointed over the years, to encourage wider input while retaining its role of quality control and comfort with the appointees. At present Arbcom chooses to ask the community to express a preference between the users who have indicated an interest and Arbcom would be comfortable to agree as giving access. In this case the problem is that the community has not shown the level of preference set out in the election rules. In other words, Arbcom could as easily have set rules at 50%, 60% or anything else when they announced the election and then it would not have been a problem, but the election was announced with a percentage at 70% so it is.
	(1) The blocking or banning of users like Flavius Vanillus, whose contributions I have documented , and which do not in my view merit blocking or banning. I'm interested in cases like this because they raise in general the issue of how pseudoscience is dealt with in Misplaced Pages. Cases like these suggest that those with a scientific or academic background are distinctly on a wrong foot when it comes to Misplaced Pages. Why is this? What can we learn from the case of Flavius? How would we play it again? I want some way to help us going forward, to make it easier to deal with pseudoscience in the future. Misplaced Pages has a distinctly higher profile in 2008 the media and in the scientific profession than it did in 2006, and I am in contact with people in the medical profession who are very uneasy about the way topics like NLP and also are being handled. It looks as though valid scientific objections to these subjects are being handled arbitrarily by blocking or banning, and that could be very damaging to Misplaced Pages if it were made public.
			: They are trust positions. It's like "provisionally" giving people keys to private data. There's no provisional - they are trusted enough to view the data, or not. There's no halfway, and no scope for "if we don't like their use, withdraw their access later". Adminship to an extent is "they look okay, no reason not to", because if they do wrong then its incredibly rare any lasting harm will arise. You appoint these tools from the opposite perspective, affirmative trust and knowing if they do wrong then harm may result.
	(2) The blocking or banning of Headley Down. FT2 has been instrumental in banning sockpuppets of this user since he became an admin: , , , , .
			: So if "provisional" doesn't make sense, what about extra regulation? Well, the issue here is that these tools aren't under public review, full stop. Rmeoval of privacy based material followed by reposting the private material so everyone can agree nobody should see it, doesn't make sense. Ditto, though less obviously, for Checkuser. These tools aren't public tools and the data they work on isn't public data, so the public will not be able to access the material (like they could with ordinary edits and admin actions) to check it. The regulation for CU/OS is largely by other CU/OS, and Arbcom itself (via its audit subcommittee). That's a Foundation policy and it goes to the extent that you can't appoint just one CU or one OS on any wiki - there must always be 2 or more precisely so they can scrutinize each other's actions.
	This case is more problematic, because of the use of multiple sockpuppets (which I despise). On the other hand, Phdarts made some excellent contributions to the ] article, and I value the extensive research he puts into his work. Misplaced Pages needs more editors like him. So from a practical point of view, perhaps we should put a little work in revisiting this case. FT2 would have to be involved here, because he seems to be the blocking admin in all recent cases. As you know, I was particularly annoyed when he blocked PhDarts.
			: Extra data for you to take into account in considering your view. Hopefully it will help. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 19:24, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
	In general, I have a profound concern, and always have had, that Misplaced Pages is not a good environment for academics, because of the various cultural idiosyncracies that prevail here (I originated the expert retention projects years ago). My view is we should be making it a better place, because we need academics and qualified experts and other professionals, and we should not be making life hard for them. In particular, not trying to ban them (as nearly happened to me yesterday) for raising perfectly valid, well-sourced and good faith concerns. Best ] (]) 05:45, 15 August 2008 (UTC).
			::Thank you for your answer. I seek not to argue with you. I seek to find a compromise when the consensus does not exist. Lowering the standard after the election has significant opposition. Not lowering the standard after the election has significant opposition. Brainstorming is a way to find a compromise.
	: Flavius' case is not about "how pseudoscience is dealt with in Misplaced Pages". It's about how virulent sock-puppeteers, and pov warriors who create socks, or recruit meats, are dealt with, following a year long sock war and abuse. The answer is historic, and can be summed up roughly as "lack of patience by everybody", including all the Arbitrators and the admins who dealt with it at the time (I wasn't one of those). If there is a better proposal going forward, then name it and see if it can work. However, Headley, his sock-puppets, and others 'recruited' by him with the effect of pushing his line back onto the wiki, are very unlikely to be part of that, either in person, or indirectly. Nobody would mind if he was an honest editor with his work. But he was not, and that's well known to anyone who checks the evidence dispassionately. You need to do that more thoroughly, and not just assume "sounds scientific and plausible and has cites" means "is legitimate", when it comes to this editor. That's his game. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
			::You mention that the positions are a position of trust, more so than admins. Admins generally have to get 80% support. CU/OS are lower at 70%. It seems that using the definition of trust at 70% (not my definition but the election rules), only one person met that definition.
	:: I suggest you take a serious reality check here (see my on your slanderous misattribution of sources). You seem to be confusing different editors (Flavius and Headley). Flavius is a ''bona fide'' academic who has never used (to my knowledge) multiple accounts. His banning was a ''disgrace'' to the project. I don't care if you weren't involved. This is an issue for all of us. You seem to have an unhealthy and pathological obsession with both of these editors due to your obsessive sense of ownership of the NLP articles. Repeat: these articles are not your property, they are the community's, and it is for the community to judge. I am still happy to be involved in mediation but you seriously need to change your way of going about things if this is going to be at all productive. Start with avoiding the term 'virulent sock-puppeteer' and its cognates. Look dispassionately at the edits, try not to selectively cite (or to falsify sources) and things will be just fine. End of lecture. ] (]) 17:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
			::Provisional makes sense because it fulfills the "don't change the rules after an election" people but the "appoint them now" people get their man appointed.
	:::You accuse him of slander, of intentionally falsifying sources, of attempting to own article content in a subject area. You implicitly accuse him of a conflict of interest, and seem to attribute to him some sort of malice for being involved in the blocking of sockpuppets of a banned user. If you want to begin a process or appeal for the review of blocks or bans, there are formal mechanisms for doing these things. FT2 has made it obvious that he will not do them for you, so what more do you want from him? What goal are you hoping to achieve by posting to this page? To make as many accusations as you can before getting blocked, and then scream conspiracy and the doom of Misplaced Pages? ]] 18:09, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
	:::: Ahem, follow the thread more carefully. I was replying to a polite note FT2 left on my talk page. If you read that, also the note I left on Guy's page, you will see I clearly wasn't implying the false attribution was deliberate. And please keep out of this discussion unless you have something of substance to contribute. Thanks ] (]) 18:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
			::As far as regulation, this makes complete sense. The provisional people would just list the results they made public. For example, FT2 could write on his talk page (if he were a CU), "I published the following CU results....CU results on SSP cases 1, 2, 3." This information is already public, just scattered. This regulation would also try to appeal to those opposed to breaking the election rules by having the appointed provisional people be special appointees.
	:::::In your comment directly above mine, you write to FT2: "...your slanderous misattribution of sources." If you were intending to imply that he had made an error, then perhaps you might consider using less inflammatory language. In my summary of your remarks above, I left out that you described him as pathologically obsessive. That is called ]. Regarding HeadleyDown and Flavius, my point remains - what do you expect him to do for you? There are places and processes designed to address your complaints - use them. ]] 19:18, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
			::Can you think of ways to combine the wishes of the "appoint now" versus "don't change the rules to get the election results you want" people? Again, not to argue, but to think of hybird ways to compromise between two opposite views. Note that among the millions of WP users, I am the only one trying to find a compromise solution. Hope others will help try. ] (]) 20:12, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
	:::::: What I expect him to do is answer my question. Can you just go away please. ] (]) 21:00, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
			::: Brainstorming's a good thing. I hope it's helpful. I'm not in any sense a "moderator". I've set out a framework and useful guide, so the community can consider what's best. The appointing body has listed people it trusts, asked for a preference from the community, but has set rules that mean everyone got excluded. Logic (to me) says that ''at this point'' with the exclusion of the one user who got >70%, there are only 3 options: CU/OS are appointed (two suboptions - we either do or don't ask for more community views on the candidates), or CU/OS are not appointed. All other options including any change to the assessment mechanism (percentage etc) fall into one of these 3 cases.
	I've said what I had to say, and you're free to ignore me. From your remarks here, and your "toady" and "arselicker" edit summaries, its clear that you're unable to respond to criticism without personal attacks. Since I don't have the power to reform the behavior of an adult, and you obviously are intelligent enough to understand what I've written, there's nothing further to say. ]] 21:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
	: Apologies. Sincerely. ] (]) 07:41, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
			::: The percentage at RFA and percentage at CUOS is a very different basis - those at CUOS already got virtually unanimous agreement from all arbitrators (or all who expressed a view) and will have been scrutinized quite deeply as part of that. In that sense a fair representation for the trust for CUOS is probably around 95% at Arbcom (> 90%) - if they get one serious oppose or a couple of minor uncertainties, the answer will often be "not now/not yet", and those views will be based on scrutiny.
	==AfD nomination of Strategy (NLP)==
	]I have nominated ], an article you created, for ]. I do not feel that this article satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at ]. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. <small>Do you want to ] of receiving this notice?</small><!-- Template:AFDWarning --> <font color="#156917">]</font> (<font color="#156917">]</font>) 02:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
			::: But no, provisional doesn't make sense (to me) because I can't see what exactly is (or could be) provisional about it. They are allowed to view WMF data or they are not allowed. If they are okay to view it then why would they stop being trusted later? And with all OS and probably half of CU work being off-wiki, and the half that's on-wiki being clear anyway to anyone who tracks SPI, and the wider community unable to do any kind of checking anyway, what's the point of a partial list of cases? More food for thought. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 20:40, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
	*You know, Rootology, there is no particular rush. A short breather between some of these noms would not be the end of the world... ] 02:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
	:* Sorry, I'm not meaning to poke. I just am planning to nominate this one lone one, since it's totally unsourced/conceptual/content from the practice. It just stuck out too much, from reading about 10-15 of them just now. I'm sorry, FT. :( <font color="#156917">]</font> (<font color="#156917">]</font>) 02:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
			::::Part of the solution is to acknowledge the opinions of two large groups (and probably some of the subgroups). Throwing out the election or changing the rules after the election so as to elect some does not have the consensus. Neither does a new election (of course, a new election addresses the fairness and ethics issue). So the brainstorming idea is still the only idea to try to compromise. So far you have picked faults with some of the ideas but nobody has suggested a compromise. I wonder why not?
	== Image:VP_Bug(1)-FT2.png listed for deletion ==
	An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|Thank you.}} ] (]) 06:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC) <!-- Template:Idw -->
	: No, from the title its a screenshot of a bug in VandalProof from long ago. It can go. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 13:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
			::::As far as the issue of term limits, arbitrators have a given term. By giving a short term to new CU/OS then trying to resolve the issue, it can't be that bad because that's what arbitrators are given, a term. ] (]) 00:24, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
	== Query concerning arbitration case delay ==
			::::: Again, I'm thinking that's misguided. We're finding out what response has consensus, so the statements you make about what does and doesn't have consensus are flawed - we're presently finding the community's views. You next ask why nobody suggests a compromise, but I think I've explained the issue is that there are only a very few practical alternatives, the rest (whether compromise or not) collapse into those for this ''one'' set of appointments. (See explanation under "Some other option or variation"). Last, the comparison doesn't work either. Arbitrators, appointed for fixed terms (with option to restand), assess disputes, cases and privacy functions of the wider community. CU/OS are toolholders not judicial positions (so to speak). CU's analyzing technical data in one case and OS's remove private/defamatory info in the other. Like admin tools (only more trust needed) once trust is given for a tool, it endures until they cease activity or something changes. Arbs retain CU/OS after arbship terms end for exactly this reason. Last, to repeat my observation above, "provisional" doesn't make sense with CU/OS, nor does a "short term". These are trust based tools. To repeat from above, they are trusted enough to view the data, or not. There's no halfway. I think that's mostly why your arguments aren't making much headway nor gaining much support. The role is different from arbitratorship and the CU/OS tools different from on-wiki public or admin tools. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 01:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::Part of a compromise is to take equal chunks of several proposals. Usually, few people like it but sometimes more people accept it. Compromise is usually not dictating that one side gets its way. It's usually not taking 99% of one view and 1% of the other views, though often politicians will do that to claim a false compromise. Even I don't like my compromise idea but it's better than imposing my idea on everyone else or some other person's idea on everyone else. ] (]) 15:32, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::: Agree, but in this case it's not clear what proposal might exist that is not seriously flawed compared to the existing ones. It's worth constructing proposals amenable to as many people as possible, but I've looked now at the question of "temporary" or "provisional" for these roles and it doesn't make sense or seem to mean anything. Even the comparison above is plainly incorrect ("arbitrators have fixed terms" - no they don't for the tools). I can only repeat what I said above. The suggestions so far don't work for me. I can't see a way to make them useful to the community, and I see their flaws. I'm not voting on proposals but my comment is, these ideas just wouldn't work. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 15:45, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
			::::::::::Again, I seek not to argue with you. What I see are drastically different opinions, many of them within the bounds of being reasonable, but difficult to decide without ignoring many opinions. It is easy to declare "I select A as the answer, not B and C, though I've carefully considered B and C (ha, ha B and C lost, tough luck)". It is harder to come up with a compromise taking ideas that are reasonable but that one doesn't like. Try to come up with other compromise ideas! ] (]) 15:52, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
			::::::::::: I have, however in this case there aren't any with a significant chance that come to mind. Part of the art of a matter like this is to distinguish options that are likely to have a chance of gaining traction and being useful. Sometimes there are several, sometimes one or two, sometimes none, and sometimes only time will change the communal mood to allow actual solutions. A good test here is that almost no credible experienced users are diving in to propose alternatives. As an example, the only option that has (#4) has so far got low levels of interest - 3 responses and all opposed. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 16:09, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::Does that mean that I am now a FT2 designated "credible experienced user" or that I am not one? Ha, ha, don't answer unless it's a yes! It is too bad that over 200 people voted yet few are offering an ideas, even an oppose or support, to the RFC. Thank you for your effort in drafting the RFC. ] (]) 16:46, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
			== RFC end ==
			Does the RFC have an end date? June 29th? With something of this importance, it is better not to say that it ends when someone says it ends. Otherwise, one could say that it ends when I win and continues if I am losing. Of course, if we say ahead of time that it ends ''some'' time after two weeks, then nobody should think that we are short circuiting the time period. So an alternate would be no sooner than June 14th but as long as a month.
			I bring this up not to make trouble but to prevent trouble! ] (]) 22:11, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
			== funny ==
			Berghuis v. Thompkins
			After 3 hours of silence to police questions....
			Do you believe in God? Yes
			Do you pray to God to forgive you for killing John Smith? Yes, oops.
			That is like...
			In the court room: The People of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts versus John Smith. Charged with 2 murders (error in speaking) in the first degree.
			Two? I only killed one guy! Oops!
			] (]) 22:57, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
			i suppose i am the only one laughing..... :( ] (]) 20:21, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
			== DYK ==
			I replied to your comments. ] (]) 15:26, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
			:I hope that you don't expect me or someone else to fix your cites. I won't and that's being lazy. ] (]) 23:10, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
			:: I don't "expect" any given person to. My focus in editing was on identifying whether the section was written from a ] - which directly affects whether readers will get a balanced representation of the topic. The cites went in there quickly with the view that I'll fix them if time permits (if not they'll eventually be put into proper "cite web" format). But the NPOV matter was more urgent. Given your request for a DYK hook on the article, the of poor flow, tone, a few sentences needing improvement, and the like, needed fixing much more quickly, so I did.
			:: However, not to worry. Just 21 minutes later another user fixed the cites . Isn't collaboration great :) ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:31, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::What you call poor flow and a few sentences needing fixing is personal taste. I like what you did with the article, I'm just saying that isn't even close to a major issue. ] (]) 00:16, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
			{{Minnow}}
			::::For adding non-formatted references. This should really be a trout but I'm in a good mood. ] (]) 16:49, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
			== Peter Damian ==
			Hi FT, I emailed you a few weeks ago to let you know as a matter of courtesy that I was considering requesting an unblock for Peter, and again tonight to tell you that I was about to post it. You can see it ] on AN. I'm letting you know here too just to make sure you see it. Cheers, ] <small><sup>]]</sup></small> 09:13, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
			:Thanks for your comment. I've moved it into chronological place because it looked as though the supports might be supporting those additional points. ] <small><sup>]]</sup></small> 10:08, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
			:: That makes sense, sure. Hopefully they are factual enough to be useful. I've added a sample diff so you can see what I mean. Can you ask him to explicitly confirm on the stated behaviors as part of this? Thanks. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 10:12, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::He agreed to avoid interaction, and I'm sure that will be broadly interpreted, because lots of people will be keeping an eye on it. ] <small><sup>]]</sup></small> 10:15, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
			== ] ==
			{{collapse top}}
			An Arbitration request in which you are involved has been opened, and is located ]. Please add any evidence you wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, ]. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, ].
			Additionally, please note that for this case specific procedural guidelines have been stipulated; if you have any questions please ]. The full outline is listed on the Evidence and Workshop pages, but please adhere to the basics:
			*The issues raised in the "Sock Puppet Standards of Evidence" and "Stephen Schultz and Lar" requests may be raised and addressed in evidence in this case if (but only if) they have not been resolved by other means.
			*Preparation of a formal list of "parties to the case" will not be required.
			*Within five days from the opening of the case, participants are asked to provide a listing of the sub-issues that they believe should be addressed in the committee's decision. This should be done in a ] of the Workshop page designated for that purpose. Each issue should be set forth as a one-sentence, neutrally worded question—for example:
			**"Should User:X be sanctioned for tendentious editing on Article:Y"?
			**"Has User:Foo made personal attacks on editors of Article:Z?"
			**"Did Administrator:Bar violate the ABC policy on (date)?"
			**"Should the current community probation on Global Warming articles by modified by (suggested change)?"
			:The committee will not be obliged to address all the identified sub-issues in its decision, but having the questions identified should help focus the evidence and workshop proposals.
			*All evidence should be posted within 15 days from the opening of the case. The drafters will seek to move the case to arbitrator workshop proposals and/or a proposed decision within a reasonable time thereafter, bearing in mind the need for the committee to examine what will presumably be a very considerable body of evidence.
			*Participants are urgently requested to keep their evidence and workshop proposals as concise as reasonably possible.
			*The length limitation on evidence submissions is to be enforced in a flexible manner to maximize the value of each user's evidence to the arbitrators. Users who submit overlength diatribes or repetitious presentations will be asked by the clerks to pare them. On the other hand, the word limit should preferably not be enforced in a way that hampers the reader's ability to evaluate the evidence.
			*All participants are expected to abide by the general guideline for Conduct on arbitration pages, which states:
			*Incivility, personal attacks, and strident rhetoric should be avoided in Arbitration as in all other areas of Misplaced Pages.
			*Until this case is decided, the existing community sanctions and procedures for Climate change and Global warming articles remain in full effect, and editors on these articles are expected to be on their best behavior.
			*Any arbitrator, clerk, or other uninvolved administrator is authorized to block, page-ban, or otherwise appropriately sanction any participant in this case whose conduct on the case pages departs repeatedly or severely from appropriate standards of decorum. Except in truly egregious cases, a warning will first be given with a citation to this notice. (Hopefully, it will never be necessary to invoke this paragraph.)
			On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, ~ <span style="color:#F09;">Amory</span><span style="color:#555; font-size:smaller;"> ''(] • ] • ])''</span> 00:35, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			: Thanks for the heads up - collapsed this as it's lengthy though. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 19:05, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
			=== Sub-issues questions ===
			Hey - I your proposed issues as they were not phrased as "''one-sentence question''s." Please feel free to rephrase them into questions, or contribute your thoughts elsewhere on the workshop page. Thank you. ~ <span style="color:#F09;">Amory</span><span style="color:#555; font-size:smaller;"> ''(] • ] • ])''</span> 12:28, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
			: Missed that bit . Okay! ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 16:05, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
			==Talkback==
			{{talkback|Talk:Berghuis v. Thompkins/GA1|ts=16:38, 15 June 2010 (UTC)}}
			== ] GAN ==
			Congratulations, I have listed ] as a Good Article. Please consider reviewing a nominee for Good Article. Regards, ] (]) 19:06, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
			==Keegscee Sock #I Lost Count==
			] posted on Keegscee's , claims to be Keegscee. I have asked ] who has been wranglin' the socks of Keegscee previously to get with a checkuser and flush out the other ones and rangeblock, but he appears to be offline for the moment, hence I bring this to your attention. -
			:Taken care of by Georgewilliamherbert. Take Care. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 00:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)</small>
			== REVDEL multiple revisions at once? ==
			Forgive me if I've missed an announcement somewhere, but is it still best to avoid using Revision Delete on multiple revisions at once or has that bug been fixed? I can see you've had this and related conversations more than once, but I'm not an admin so some of it still escapes me. ] (]) 14:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
			: Yes and thanks for checking. The bug's half fixed, ie, the basic functionality is there. Werdna's working on the other half but (with Pending Changes being released) could be another week or a bit more. ''May'' be okay but until tested can't be sure. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 18:11, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
			==DYK for Berghuis v. Thompkins==
			Hello, I've had a look at your DYK nom for this article. I've only started reviewing DYKs (so I could be wrong!) but on first inspection it seems to fall short of 5 x expansion if you want to have a look at it. ] ] <sub> ]</sub> 15:31, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
			==]==
			You deleted an article which should be restored:
			* 02:51, 22 May 2010 FT2 (talk | contribs) deleted "]" ‎ (A7: No explanation of the subject's significance (real person, animal, organization, or web content): Essentially "Was a partner in a big firm". Would need more reason to sustain an article.)
			Your decision-making in this instance was flawed. The fact that Britannica considers this figure sufficiently important to include in its online encyclopedia for children is sufficient argument for the article to be restored -- see .
			Please do what you can to rectify this unfortunate mistake.
			When restored, you may trust that I will add material sufficient to clarify its legitimate status as an article.
			Thank you. --] (]) 21:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
			: A note at ] suggests that it may be more conventional for me to ask you to "userfy" what was deleted?
			::'''John Ogden Merrill''' (b St Paul, Minnesota, 10 August 1896&mdash; d Chicago, Illinois, 13 June 1975) was an structural engineer and founding partner of the architectural firm of ] (]).<:ref name="wilson">Museum of Modern Art (MOMA): citing Richard Guy Wilson (2009). ''Grove Art Online,'' Oxford University Press.</ref>
			::;Merrill's notability
			::Merrill's contribution to the firm was seminal. He is credited with establishing the multi-disciplinary nature of the firm.<p>SOM defined a new architectural approach of team work and total or comprehensive design, since the firm undertook everything: design, engineering, landscaping, urban planning and interiors. Also an innovation, especially given the quality of work and the prominence of the firm, was that none of the founding partners actually designed.<p>The unique character of SOM’s work was influenced by the engineers who became partners in the practice.<:ref name="wilson"/><p>
			:The bottom line&mdash;this person is an appropriate and necessary subject for an article in our Misplaced Pages context. --] (]) 02:01, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
			::: I'd be glad to let you have a copy of the page text. I've sent it by email to you.
			::: In terms of suitability for an article, as I understand it, Merrill's "claim to notice" is due to the company (work done by SOM, size of SOM, etc), and also because of the important changes he made to that company. Is that roughly correct? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 10:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
			::::I do not know the answers, but I will undertake to find them.
			::::Let me explain why I developed the article about ], who is the "O' in ].
			::::I was invited for tea at the home of one of the '']'' whose career as an interior designer had been entirely at SOM. In September 2008, I created the article as a token gift to offer my hostess at tea. In 2010, it is only an accidental oversight that ] is still on my watchlist in 2010; but there you have it.
			::::The projected "stub" or "start" which results from my small investment of time will become another gift I bring to tea. I have no continuing interest in ] beyond what is needed to rebut the rationale which informs this speedy delete. --] (]) 13:52, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::::Please userfy ]. --] (]) 14:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::::: I've restored both current and previous versions for you - see ]. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 15:04, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
			==John O. Merrill==
			] is not an appropriate article for the speedy deletion process. --] (]) 23:53, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
			;Justification
			The ] of research supports the notability of ]; and the following is sufficient to rebut any "speedy deletion" argument. In summary, the notability of ] is ] by ]: (a) the obit in the ''New York Times,'' (b) the article in the ''Grove Art Online,'' (c) the article in the ''American National Biography'' and (d) WorldCat Identities ... plus (e) the previously mentioned but unused article in the ''Britannica online.''
			:;Notes
			:^ a b c d e f g h ''New York Times.'' June 13, 1975.
			:^ a b Museum of Modern Art (MOMA): citing Richard Guy Wilson (2009). ''Grove Art Online,'' Oxford University Press.
			:^ "Merrill, John Ogden," (1999). ''American National Biography,'' Vol. 15, pp. 360-361.
			:^ a b c d Lehman College Art Gallery,
			:^ Westcott, Ed. (2005). {{Google books|1xHhqLqFHcgC|''Oak Ridge,'' p. 61.|page=61}}
			:^ Nauman, Robert Allen. (2004). {{Google books|urylSyuA3zwC|''On the Wings of Modernism: the United States Air Force Academy,'' pp. 72-80.|page=72}}
			:^ Wilkes, Joseph A. and Robert T. Packard. (1989). ''Encyclopedia of Architecture: Design, Engineering & Construction,'' Vol. 4. p. 454.
			:^ ''New York Times.'' July 4, 1955.
			:^ ''New York Times.'' February 14, 1937.
			:^ ''New York Times.'' March 26, 1950.
			:^ American Institute of Architects Historical Directory,
			:^ a b :
			:;References
			:* Nauman, Robert Allen. (2004). Urbana: ]. 10-{{ISBN|0252028910}}/13-{{ISBN|9780252028915}};
			:* Westcott, Ed. (2005). Charleston, South Carolina: Arcadia Publishing. 10-{{ISBN|0738541702}}; 13-{{ISBN|9780738541709}};
			:* Wilkes, Joseph A. and Robert T. Packard. (1989). ''Encyclopedia of Architecture: Design, Engineering & Construction.'' New York: John Wiley. 10-{{ISBN|0471633518}}/13-{{ISBN|9780471633518}};
			The article text explains that ] is
			#'''Notable''' for design and development of the ] campus; and he provided on-site architect construction oversight for the project in ]
			#'''Notable''' for design and development of the ] research campus; and he provided on-site architect construction oversight for the project and for the new community which was created at ]
			#'''Notable''' for design, development and construction of the permanent US military facilities on ], including the still controversial ]
			#'''Notable''' as a founding partner of the prominent international architectural firm, ] (SOM); and also notable for his seminal influence on development of unique SOM corporate culture
			::: Thanks. I would agree. Notice that it isn't a matter of personalities or defensiveness. The issue was evidence. before there wasn't. Now there is. Specifically, an NY Times obit is enough to suggest notability all on its own.
			::: Be aware that the claim "Built notable project X so must be notable" or "Founded notable firm X so must be notable" generally fails due to ] (the X might be notable but it doesn't demonstrate those involved in its creation are). To put it simply, architects design and help built things, the same way accountants count things and help run businesses, and writers write things. Its the daily work of all architects to design and built things.
			::: The key here is evidence he himself was notable, not that he built notable things. The single NY Times obit by itself is enough to show that. A career that included building some big military objects (putting it crudely) by itself does not.
			::: I put it crudely, not to offend, but to explain in very basic terms, the distinction and significance. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 00:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::: I've got the full obit from NYT, if you want to use it for source material. Its not copyright free or fair use though, so I can't put it on wiki. if you want it by email, please email me and I'll send it to you. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 01:08, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::::I appreciate your offer, but that won't be necessary. I have full online ''Times'' access. One question remains: What next? May I now post ] in main space? --] (]) 01:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::::: If you want to write it in user space I'll be glad to cast an eye over it and see what cleanup may be useful. It might help.
			:::::: ''Update'' - left a few review points ''']'''. Those aside and a bit of minor copyediting, it looks okay to go.]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 02:20, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
			==DYK for Berghuis v. Thompkins==
			{{tmbox
			|tyle = notice
			|small =
			|image = ]
			|text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>(], )</small> and add it to ] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the ].
			}} <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 18:03, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
			== ] (revision move) is listed as 'resolved fixed'... ==
			...so I guess we should have a community discussion on whether we want it enabled here? –]] 12:45, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
			: Would be nice to see how it works, and noting also it's still marked "experimental". I've asked if it's enabled on any WMF test wiki. It would be good to see it in action, not least to be able to explain and screenshot it (and point others to where it can be tested) for any possible discussion. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 12:49, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
			::Probably need to file a quick 'zilla to get it enabled on ]. –]] 12:51, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::<s>]</s>. –]] 14:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::: Done, and got there first. (]). One or the other's a duplicate :) ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::::lol. –]] 14:30, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::::: Left it to you to strike one out. I could just see the scenario happening where we both did that, too :) ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:32, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::ha! Go ahead and request sysop on testwiki while we wait: ]. –]] 14:33, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
			:&larr; In case you haven't been keeping up on the bugzilla'en, we're currently awaiting a code review for the RevisionMove so that it can be enabled on the WMF branch (or something...). –]] 15:46, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
			== ] moving to Workshop ==
			This Arbitration case is now moving into the Workshop phase. Please read ] to understand the process. Editors should avoid adding to their evidence sections outside of slight tweaks to aid in understanding; large-scale additions should not be made. Many proposals have already been made and there has already been extensive discussion on them, so please keep the Arbitrators' procedures in mind, namely to keep "''workshop proposals as concise as reasonably possible''." Workshop proposals should be relevant and based on already provided evidence; evidence masquerading as proposals will likely be ignored. ~ <span style="color:#F09;">Amory</span><span style="color:#555; font-size:smaller;"> ''(] • ] • ])''</span> 20:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
			== Opinion for a requested move of ] ==
			Hello! I have ] for ] → ]. As you participated in the previous discussion, could you please voice your opinion again regarding this move, as it is my intention to restart the discussion with a clean slate. — <small>&nbsp;]&nbsp;&nbsp;▎]</small> 23:02, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
			: Thanks - posted. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:44, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
			== Note ==
			I have mentioned you at ] and ]. ] (]) 14:40, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
			: Thanks, would not have been aware otherwise. Posted at both. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 18:32, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
			::The last point was addressing both points 3 and 4 (which were synonymous in that they were dealing with questionable/good standing). I'll ping you (before the week ends) when I've looked at it properly. ] (]) 15:08, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
			:::I've responded at the policy talk. ] (]) 10:12, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
			==Frank Mangano==
			Hello, I appreciate your comments and criticisms. I know more work needs to be done here, unfortunately, my schedule does not permit me to respond immediately to this. My intent is to continue the make improvement to this BLP however, I have become swamped with work assignments. Can we keep the bulk of the content in my user space? I will not move into article space without significant improvement as I find it, nor will I move it without review. All that I have done has been in the open, I have not deleted anyone's comments. I would really hate to start over though. Thank you! (])) Cre8tivedge 19:04, 30 June 2010 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			: Sure - restored the June 18, 2010 11:57 version (latest) for you at ]. Best! ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 20:27, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
			Thank you so much for returning this to my user space. I do see where significant changes need to be made and your statements are fair and clear! Thanks again!
			]Cre8tivedge 18:00, 5 July 2010 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			== RFC is closed ==
			Hi, just a note to let you know that the RFC discussion you started has closed and is in need of assesment and the next step, whatever that is to be, regards. ] (]) 23:05, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
			:Just to note I sent you email; hopefully things make more sense. ] (]) 10:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
			== Article on Administrator abuse ==
			Thanks for your comments. That topic is stuck in my throat and I could write pages and pages about it. Luckily for you, I am rather busy with real-life work so I will just blurt out a few disconnected thoughts.
			{{collapse top}}
			*I did not start the article, and I even agree that, ordinarily, it would not be a suitable topic --- not for lack of "notability" (a criterion which I donot recognize as valid) but simply because I think its is very poor taste for an encyclopedia to have more than one article about itself. However, having read through several megabytes (literally) of talk on the topicof admin abuse, which never went anywhere, I saw that article as a unique opportunity to have a *productive* analysis of that topic. Being in Article space, rather than Misplaced Pages:* or Talk:*, would force the text to be organized, non-redundant, impersonal, neutral, limited to verifiable facts, etc. etc.. Alas, we lost that opportunity.
			*As I had observed in the article's lead, "administrator abuse" is usually meant in the broad sense, including abusive behavior by non-sysop editors who perform substantial administrative work --- like tagging, posting on the AfD, writing rules, operating robots, etc.. The brader interpretation seems to make the discussion of "admin abuse" more useful.
			*Given the obvious "conflict of interest", I would have expected admins to be extra cautious in their edits to that article. Instead, they not only promptly listed the article on the AfD, but even closed the AfD before its normal 7-day period was over.
			*There are many more reputable references on that topic besides those listed. The sources call it by various names or may just imply it indirectly, e.g. when discussing conflict resolution and elitism. Thus, finding such referentes takes work. The article was deleted even as I was editing it. Note that most editors --- those who wrote the 3 million articles --- have limited free time, and may take weeks to see challenges and respond to them. That is why, in the good old days, editors who challenged some statement in an article were supposed to edit it out and explain their concern on the talk page. But of course deleting is much easier and definitive. "I did a Google search and nothing turned up, so I deleted the article", "The article has been up for 3 days and it still has no references, so I deleted it" --- those are precisely examples of admin abuse that the article was about.
			*Independently of what the media says, admin abuse is real, widespread, and is doing terrible damage to Misplaced Pages. Sadly admins seem quite blind to the problem. They claim to be merely enforcing the law according to well established procedures --- without realizing that the laws and the procedures themselves are part of the abuse. (And the world outside *is* taking notice. The blog drivel pieces are just the leading edge of the wave. In a few minutes of googling I found several scholarly papers criticising the Misplaced Pages decision-making, admin promotion, and conflict resolution processes, and even a masters thesis.)
			*Take the notability rule, for instance. It s labeled as "consensus" by those who apply it --- but in reality it was created by a handful of deletionists (less than 1% of the total pool of editors), apparently admins in their most part; and became "law" simply because those people started enforcing it --- and deleting an article is not only definitive, but so much easier than writing one.
			*Or take the AfD. Who decided that deletion discussions should be carried out in a central board, rather than on the article's talk page? Which class of editors finds that arrangement more convenient? Who are the people most likely to have the AfD on their watchlist? Who has the time and motivation to vote for the deletion of other people's articles? Who decided that AfD discussions should be limited to 7 days? Why? Who makes the final decision? Why can't ordinary editors undo deletions, like any other edits? And, finally, who gave those people the right to define those rules?
			*I have been editing Misplaced Pages since 2004 or so, and to me it is absolutely clear that the attitude and behavior of adminis has changed for the worse --- much worse --- since 2006. At first I thought it was just me burning out. Then I noticed that lots of other editors were just as pissed off as me about article deletions, disparaging tags, robot edits, idiotic standards, and the like. As time passed I ran into more and more report and examples of abuse, against me and others.
			* For instance, last year I had the curiosity to check how the "unref" taging policy had been decided upon. I found out that 30 people (who had been involved in the tag's design) voted it on an obscure talk page. The "consensus" option was voted by only 10 of them. Nevertheless, those admins who wanted the tag started inserting it on thousands of articles with the help of robots. Then the fashion caught on, and dozens of other stupid article-side tags appeared; I bet thay did not even bother to held a poll at all. So all those tags ou there --- perhaps half a million or more --- were never a "consensus", in any conceivable sense of the word. They stuck only because deleting them is far more work than putting them in, and because the admins who created them also declared that their removal by ordinary editors would be considered vandalism and punished as such. If that is not "administrator abuse", then what is?
			*Last year I also did an analysis of the ] from 2001 to 2009. To my dismay, I found out that the "slowdown" in article creation since 2006 was actually due to a steady loss of editors --- a striking contrast to the exponential growth until 2005. It seems that since 2006 hardly any new editors have been recruited, and old timers are steadily leaving. This alarming pheonomenon had been noted already by people at Xerox PARC,but strangely no one in Misplaced Pages seems to have paid attention to it.
			*I had many other other eye-opening experiences since then. Early this year I wasted several days reading and voting the Unsourced BLP RfC, which, from start to finish, was one of the grossest examples of institutionalized admin abuse ever.
			*An old article of mine was deleted over the year-end holidays (the AfD debate ran between 2009-12-27 and 2010-01-02, to be precise) on totally bogus claims of "original research" and bungled Google searches. Needless to say that I did not have a chance to rebate the claims. I managed to have the article restored as a draft under my User page, but then had to be away from Misplaced Pages for a couple of months. When I returned I found that it had been deleted again --- from my User: draft space! The admin's explanation? "That's simply too long a period of time." Well, who decided that? And why is "their" opinion more authoritative than mine?
			*The root of the problem is that Misplaced Pages has no decent decision-making or voting mechanism that would prevent administrator abuse. All the talk about "consensus" stuff is crap; that is a meaningless buzzword, a pile of sand where Jimbo and the Foundation bury their head whenever the issue of governance comes up. The only thing that can be said about Misplaced Pages's governance is that is neither a democracy nor a dictatorship, nor anything in between; its basically anarchy. Misplaced Pages admins behave like like a rogue motorcycle gang: any admin can do basically anything he wants, as long as he does not step over the toes of his fellow admins; and these will automatically tend to side with him on any dispute with non-admins.
			*It is written in several places in WIkipedia:* that its "rules" do not create rights and obligations for admins, but merely describe what they are used to doing. I have even found two cases where an admin did something against the rules, and then edited the rules to make that thing legal a posteriori. (In one of the incidents, and perhaps both, attention was called to the fact only because it pissed off another admn. Had the abuse been made against a common user, no one would have noticed or cared.) But since rules *are* supposed to be descriptive rather than prescriptive, neither incident was technically an abuse, so the matter rested there.
			*In any organization, those who write the rules are inevitably tempted to twist them so as to give themselves more power. Lacking a firm constituion and with an assumed disdain for democracy, Misplaced Pages has let admins free rein to do so. The old rules that prevented admins from abusing their powers, and from imposing their opinion on non-admins, have been largely removed over the last few years. And since the ability to delete articles is the epitome of and admininistrator's power, more power meant more freedom to delete. That is why Misplaced Pages post-2006 has become the den of a few hundred rabid deletionists; and why tens of thousands of editors like me, who like to write rather than delete, are being made to feel like villains.
			{{collapse bottom}}
			Well, sorry for this long rant. All the best, --] (]) 01:36, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
			== Markup ==
			Hi, Sorry if I'm troubling you, but, I was trying to put an email link on my page, or find how to email another user when they don't have a link, and I saw the link on your page, and I just wanted to ask how you put it there.
			I will be truely thankful if you can answer me.
			] (]) 04:38, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
			== Antigrandiose ==
			I saw you'd posted to {{user|Antigrandiose}}'s talk page. I'm bothered by the way he not only uses his userspace as facebook/myspace, but also copies into it other people's posts. Worth taking to MfD do you think? ] (]) 20:25, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
			: <s>Dealing with this.</s> Done. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:41, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
			:Thanks very much. I see ] is tagged for MfD but not in the MfD - and not only is he using it as Myspace, but as I said, he's copying other people's posts into it, eg from here - should this be of any concern? And bits of other articles, templates, etc which has ended up with his userpage having article categories. ] (]) 05:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
			:: I didn't MFD that one, someone else did. This ] is probably what you're missing. If the snips of other people's posts are an actual problem (laundry list or suggesting they are biased or idiotic etc in the context of his other templates or anything) then that's probably best dealt with by mentioning at that MFD, or dropping him a brief note that that we don't (or shouldn't) "knock" other editors that way and please desist. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 11:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
			==Wow...==
			... You didn't even give me a chance to respond to your inaccurate "quick corrections." You'd rather just delete something than risk being shown wrong. I'm left with the feeling that I was waylayed, by two or three people, who had a problem with my page that was far out of proportion to the problem that other editors and administrators had/would have had with it. --] (]) 20:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
			: Like ], this is fairly inaccurate.
			: Your page contained genital closeups, sexual innuendo, and repeated sexual posts. Your posts included inappropriate edits like , edits that claimed a term you added was taken from a source that in fact was your own interpretation like , inappropriate incivility like , interface-hiding CSS, and posting fake "bot" warnings to an IP user that their editing would be "monitored" and to "stay off nakedlittleboys.com" like (in apparent retaliation for removing your sexual gallery ). The times your editing was appropriate were also equally noted. You had a bunch of warnings by other users and ignored them. You were told the content was unsuitable some weeks ago and ignored that too, promptly recreating ] instead.
			: You'll notice in fact I didn't "just delete". Far from it. I removed the disruptive CSS style in the one HTML code it was a problem (not affecting the displayed content but fixing the layout), de-linked a number of userboxes showing sexual content (but did not delete the actual userboxes themselves), and asked the community to ] whether the rest should be kept or removed as is our norm.
			: I suggest a quick read of ] which may give guidance on when this kind of thing can become disruptive. I notice someone else suggested you use a humor site for your humor posts. As many people have told you, this is an encyclopedia and an encyclopedia-writing community. We have norms. You have simply been asked, again, to ensure you follow them. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 22:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
			== Microformats ==
			You recently !voted on ]. This is a courtesy note to let you now that I have now posted, as promised, ], and to ask you revisit the debate. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (User:<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 14:52, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
			== Third opinion ==
			Hi FT2. I closed a RfC today - ]. The close has been disputed - ]. Would you take a look at it to give your view and hopefully resolve the matter one way or the other. <span style="border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;">''']''' *]</span> 00:56, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
			== Attention and participation ==
			:As you expressed ] concern at an earlier date, I think your attention and participation is invited ]. ] (]) 04:47, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
			== MediaWiki:Anoneditwarning ==
			As a long time IP editor, I'd like to know if there was any discussion before you changed the coloring of the text. As it stands, it's overbearing, distracting, and is alreading causing a bit of eye strain. Any chance I can get you to change it back, or at least to something with a bit less contrast? I really understand the desire to grab attention, but this is a bit over the top. ] (]) 07:33, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			:One could probably split the difference and only highlight the first of the two sentences. Would that be better? Or in the alternative, maybe black text on a soft color background would accomplish the same purpose of highlighting the box without causing eyestrain? ] (]) 09:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			::I like the second option - it draws attention without inducing panic for the casual editor and the need for filtered glasses for established ones. Tan would be a nice neutral colour but I'm not particular about it. ] And thanks.] (]) 10:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			== Flying humanoid ==
			Hello. I am the original creator of the article ], which you deleted in May 2008. Could you possibly restore the article in my userspace so that I can improve the sourcing? --] (]) 21:41, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
			: Replied on your talk page. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 17:21, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
			== ] misinterpretation after March 2010 re-write? ==
			] –]] 16:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
			: Replied on that page. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 17:22, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
			== RFC on vandalism sandboxes ==
			As someone who previously participated in the discussion to adopt policy verbiage that is being used as a rationale to delete "vandalism sandboxes", your input would be appreciated on the matter: ]. ] (]) 15:08, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
			== Clean Start ==
			I saw that you created the new 'Clean Start' policy page. I have a question about that policy, and don't know where to ask it, so I there I'd start with you. There is a "new" user whom I suspect is a returning user trying to make a clean start. The previous account has not been banned or sanctioned as far as I can tell, but had been blocked, more than once, for various violations (edit warring, harassment). It has been retired (not active for 1+ year, 'retired' box on the user page), but the "new" account is editing in the same topic area (which is a highly volatile one on Misplaced Pages), and making contentious edits (e.g. - blanket revert of several days worth of edits , undoing 20+ edits by 4 editors). This appears to be in clear violation of ], which says 'a user who then re-enters disputes and topics where their conduct was likely to be noticed (blocks, disputes, disruptive editing, contentious and edit warred topics, and the like) may be seen as evading scrutiny'. The question is what can be done about this? I am not sure a sock puppet investigation is the right way, because technically, I am not sure if this is sock puppetry. ] (]) 14:59, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
			: Without knowing more, or knowing the situation, see if this helps.
			: The ability to start again is open to almost anyone, and trying to start again is usually fine. The main thing is that people may need to know about someone's track record to assess (for example) how to handle concerns over their behavior or edits. For example, you might expect to handle a genuine newcomer differently than someone who's been round months, had warnings, and "knows the ropes". So this is more about clarity and transparency. If their editing is a concern you probably have a fair right to check if they are the same person returning.
			: On the face of it, it wouldn't be "sock puppetry" (even though covered in the same policy) because you haven't suggested that they run multiple accounts at the same time, shut down one account then promptly restarted with another, etc. Your best bet is to look carefully at the evidence - do their edits look the same, is there evidence you could show other editors from their edits or other contributions? Or is it purely a complete guess?
			: If there is no evidence, then best take them at face value as a new user. If there is some evidence to suggest they are the same person your best bet is to be non-contentious. Ask them by email or on their talk page, something like "I notice your editing reminds me of a user who once edited these pages, are you new here?". Emphasize that you are not seeking to "do" anything nor saying anything's wrong, but as it's a contentious topic and their editing suggests they might be a returning user to the area, you would like to know if they are a genuine new user or a returning "old hand". Don't threaten or accuse, be open, friendly, and ask. Make clear that it's mainly so you know what level of knowledge to assume (for example).
			: If you still aren't happy with the response, explain that it's important if they are a returning user with "history" in that discussion they need to disclose it. Again cite the policy more so they can check the position (ie to help them) and not as a "weapon" or to attack them. Then see what happens. Ultimately if there is evidence in their behavior and they persistently deny it, and their conduct were disruptive or a problem, then you would need to raise it on the talk page of that topic (is probably best) to ask other editors of that topic to comment on your concern and the evidence.
			: But bear in mind this may be a user who has done nothing wrong at all, could be a newcomer, and be civil, courteous, inform them the concern/question/issue, but assume good faith in your approach. If you have no evidence then think twice whether you have any basis to say anything. If there is good evidence and you can't sort it out by private dialog, then raise it with co-editors, again in a civil manner.
			: Hope this helps. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 15:42, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
			::Thanks, FT. There is very strong evidence (in my opinion), otherwise I wouldn't bring it up. The evidence comprises behavioral similarity (editing the same set of articles, from the same POV, often repeating similar arguments, and apparent familiarity and "history" with other long-term editors), identical language quirks (both users are self-admitted non-native English speakers, as well as technical (limited to what a non check-user like myself could gather) which point to the same geographical area and the same ISP. I believe the evidence is strong enough that a CU request would be granted. I could e-mail you the evidence in private if you'd like. ] (]) 16:11, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
			::: Sensible to ask. Would be fine to look at it for you and give suggestions. Email's good. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 16:35, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
			::::Ok, thanks. I've sent you some material. (there's more, as in the course of putting this together i discovered that the old account had actually used more than one account (they are linked by the user himself, but I didn't have the time to go over all the other old accounts' contributions- but did find some that link all three). fee free to discuss this over email if you think there are privacy issues. ] (]) 18:43, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
			::::: You have a reply by email. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 22:12, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
			::::::Thanks, I appreciate it. I wish no adverse consequences for the user - merely that he truly starts afresh, by avoiding the contentious area he was previously involved in. ] (]) 23:26, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
			== heh ==
			You're really stretching the definition of "nutshell" there! (must be a walnut or coconut) –]] 13:23, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
			: It needs dividing into a nutshell v. intro (you'll notice there is no intro so far!). Haven't finished yet. Want to help? :) ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 13:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
			::I'll go over it once you're done ;p –]] 13:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
			::: Have a go. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 13:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
			::::I'll need some time for the page to percolate, but at first blush what I noticed was ''"various pages or discussions related to your conduct that will cease to be relevant to the project "'' is given greater emphasis than it was in the former, where it was a bit of a throwaway mention ''("other pages which affect them alone")''. And this was not your doing, but I've just noticed the ''"Replacing references to the former username with references to the replacement username,"'' <-- I'm not sure if this is meant to refer to signatures, but going through replacing signatures ''en masse'' seems to be counter intuitive, no? –]] 14:04, 4 October 2010 (UTC) <small>Looks like you pre-empted that last bit =)</small>
			::::: That first one is deliberate. A common critisicm (and source of confusion/upset/misunderstanding/dispute) over right to vanish is the extent to which "vanishing" happens and what it provides. Some users believe it provides anonymity, removes their contributions, removes all discussions they were in, removes all sections and pages where they were adversely mentioned (eg on others' talk pages). So this rewrite makes a lot clearer what exactly is done. The pages and sections that are usually deleted or blanked in RTV are those where the user's conduct is the topic of discussion - SPI, ANI sections, RFC, RFAR, etc. We also may delete if asked, their user and talk pages. It's making clear what expectation a user should have, to prevent people coming to RTV with incorrect beliefs about what can and will be done, and equally to prevent gamers seeing RTV as a means to remove everything and requesting RTV as a way to bypass a bad record, when in fact we never have removed "everything". Being explicit on what is actually done for "vanishing", preventing unrealistic expectations or belief in loopholes, and making clear it's for permanent departure only, are key points that were not so clear before (or could be read favorably by a gamer). ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:17, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
			::::::Does it remove (archived) ANI sections? I've never seen that... –]] 14:20, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::No reason why not, in principle. If an ANI section covered a user's sock-puppetry or sought consensus on a ban for edit warring, or discussed their real-world connection to the topic, and the user genuinely wished to vanish, that would probably be a fair request to blank or collapse under right to vanish. The section could easily have been archived by the time the request is made, or shortly after. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:24, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
			← re: "finally" I understand your desired use (i.e. "full and final" departure) but it might also be read as "Thank the maker - this guy is ''finally'' leaving" ;> –]] 14:40, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
			: It's such an important point - a number of people considering RTV have left briefly, been banned, stopped editing, come back, etc. It needs to be clear this is when they are ready for a final and forever decision, nothing less. Both of those words probably matter. Is there a better way to say it? ("When a user makes an irrevocable decision to leave forever"?). If so, go ahead. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:43, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
			::Just thought I'd let you know why I removed 'finally'; will think about the best way to say it unambiguously. –]] 14:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
			::: It needs to be clear this is when they are ready for a final and forever decision, nothing less. Both of those words probably matter - that it's fixed/final, and that it's forever. There is some redundancy but it needs to be really clear as its target audience is people who may have ''thought'' they were leaving on other occasions and then cooled off. ("When a user makes a categorical decision to leave forever"?) if you can think of a way, go ahead. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:43, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
			== A user page appears in a category ==
			Hello FT2: Your user page <nowiki> ] </nowiki> may be in violation of ]. The Category that it appears in, ], appears to be a maintenance category, so it seems reasonable to allow user pages to appear in the category while development of a page is proceeding. Your user page in question does not seem to be in active development. Do you think you should comment out or otherwise deactivate the code that is putting this page into a category? Thanks for your consideration. --] (]) 21:48, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			: Thanks, good catch. Fixed. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 21:55, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			== Thanks! ==
			]<br/>]<br />
			Thanks for the minor copyedits you have made to the ARKBK and Bunyoro articles! ] (]) 15:07, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
			== Date error ==
			] is from May 24, but the disaster is from April 22 ... whats wrong? ] (]) 23:10, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
			: Nothing. The image is a satellite photo of the spill showing the spread around a month after the explosion. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:17, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
			== recap table ==
			this is totally off in left field, but I like that recap table you used . do you think i would be worth the effort of turning that into a template for more general use in summary-type situations? I'm happy to do it, I just don't know if it would get used sufficiently to justify the effort. --] 23:38, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
			== Thanks ==
			For pointing out the exception to the topic ban. I assumed there had to be one, but had not seen it. Lots of luck with the rewrite, Sandstein has some good points, but progress is occurring. My main goal is to make sure that user talk pages are in scope (i.e. not an exception to the ban).--<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">]]</span> 19:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
			==Fair use rationale for File:Draupner close-up.png==
			]
			Thanks for uploading or contributing to ''']'''. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under ] but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Misplaced Pages constitutes fair use. Please go to ] and edit it to include a ].
			If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "]" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on ]. If you have any questions please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-no fair use rationale-notice --> ] (]) 22:01, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
			: Done, I think. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 22:13, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
			== ] ==
			Feel free to stop by the AfD and see how I've improved the underlying article. If you've still got concerns that you want me to address, feel free to let me know, but I think I've fixed everything, except the title--which I agree needs work and better options are currently being discussed both in the AfD and the article talk page. Cheers, ] (]) 01:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
			: The title itself is still a real concern. I've fixed most of the remaining issues I can see with the rest - see article and AFD comments. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 01:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
			::Thanks! ] (]) 02:36, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::Hey, can you pop by the article again and provide constructive criticism on how I'm using the table you created? Cheers, ] (]) 00:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
			:::: No need - it's fine. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 01:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
			== An award ==
			]
			What started as you bothering me over my tag moving around resulted in great social progress and similarly awesome results in the name of better service on behalf of ]. For your efforts in achieving change I award you the '''Congressman ] Award for Progress''', ironically named after a conservative member of Congress. ] 03:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
			== Incubator CSD ==
			Thanks for restarting the discussion. At this point we needed a new proposal to "wipe the slate" and get something moving. That said, I think it might need an adjustment in wording. The short summary implies that the article has to be stale either way, but the way it's written, the first clause could apply to non-stale articles. ] (]) 13:01, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
			: The wording is "stale ''or unlikely to be suitable''", not just "stale". Doesn't that cover it? But yes, do reword if it'll help. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 13:04, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
			::OK, so I guess that was the intention. I like it, but you might pick up some opposition since the first criteria allows for someone to instantly "veto" an incubation, with no opportunity for anyone to improve it. That might cause drama if it were widely used without giving people a chance to improve an article that was incubated. ] (]) 13:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
			::: JohnCD's already proposed a fix for that ("after one week at deletion"). I'm fine with that, others will support it if it's needed. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 13:28, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
			==Talkback==
			{{talkback|WP:VPP|Explicit encouragement of vandalism|ts=23:02, 7 November 2010 (UTC)}}
			==]==
			It seems as if most of this page was unintentionally hatted. Not sure how to fix this. What do you think? ] (]) 14:25, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
			: I'm looking but it's not completely clear what the issue is - which hats or why? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:35, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
			::Well, it's just that there are eleven items in the Table of Contents and only three are visible. I'm not sure how that happened, as it is not evident from the page history. Wasn't sure who to ask about this, so I took the liberty of contacting you. ] (]) 19:31, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
			::: Ah, I see...... well spotted :) . ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 19:45, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
			::::Yeah, it looked like an incorrect archiving, but I wasn't sure. ] (]) 20:39, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
			== ] ==
			For BLP reasons I have removed, so that at least it does not show on the top version of the article, the link to an "unredacted" version of the document, which names names. If the article gets kept, I think that link should be suppressed, if possible. Regards, ] (]) 22:16, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
			== Gladiator screenshot ==
			Here you go: ]. If you need anything else, let me know. Oh, and if you could check over the fair use template, I'd appreciate that. This is my first screenshot for WP, so I might have made some slight errors in the red tape. <span style="font-family:monospace;">]</span>|] 05:42, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			:You want subtitles, I got yer subtitles ]! Sorry, different film... The time is 1:44:18. And yes, it's spoken. I don't know of a place where it's seen and not spoken. Though, like I said, it's been years since I saw the whole film and I just knew where to jump to because the other editor who responded on the Ref Desk remembered the scene. For the article that you're working on, I think it's better with subtitles. After all, that's what you're going for is the phrase and a still image doesn't do much for you without the subtitles. Anything else you need, just let me know! <span style="font-family:monospace;">]</span>|] 06:02, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			::Thanks for the deletion and the update of the info for the kept file. <span style="font-family:monospace;">]</span>|] 06:22, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			== ] ==
			The article you defaulted to keep is up again for deleted a day later by ] who tried to have it deleted a few days before. Can they constantly apply to have an article removed, even if an admin has approved to keep it? This person has systematically gone through every article referring to a show or TV network involving Larry Bundy Jr. Which seems rather strange. --] (]) 06:05, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			: If they don't have anything new to offer in the way of rationale and it's ], you can often suggest a ] close. But in this case it's got at least some rationale (unbundling a matter that got no comment) and other users don't seem to be expressing a view that it's tendentious, so I suspect just let it run its course. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 06:22, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			::Thanks ever so for your help. Is there any possibility you can step in and comment at all? I must admit, while I've been on here for a while, I'm nor adept at deletion/merging discussions. These articles had the same issues a few years ago too, so it's coming quite a headache. Thanks!!!--] (]) 08:52, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			==Talkback on ]==
			* Talkback removed, tracking separately. Thanks. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 19:21, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
			==Expectations and norms==
			Hi FT2. I'm trialling an ] at ] that links readers to a simple editing tutorial from the top of the article. I've added a link in that tutorial to ].
			: It's nicely done, simple and effective when collapsed. Two concerns worth considering though:
			:# Tagging an article as "you can edit this" may imply that others cannot be so edited. You might potentially get strong opposition for this reason.
			:# The template when expanded is way too long and detailed.
			: Because of these I'm not sure what wider feedback will end up being. But as a concept - it's definitely worth experimenting and trying out! Nice work :) ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 11:14, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
			::Both very good points, FT2. Thanks so much for the feedback. I've copied the above to the I hope that's OK. ] (]) 14:56, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
			== Accident or intentional? ==
			Did you mean to delete my post ? ] (]) 13:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
			: Sorry - the two look like they edit conflicted in the same minute - I was actually commenting ''on'' yours () and it looks like I accidentally overwrote the text rather than adding mine to it. I see you've edited yours since - I'm not sure what the correct version should be, so please go ahead and reinstate yours, and thanks for noticing it. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 15:16, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
			:: On second thought, it wasn't incredibly important. It is hard to believe that a non-fiction writer who has received multiple awards is unaware of the ] concept, but the issue is not central to that discussion. ] (]) 16:09, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
			::: That thought had ocurred to me too. Seems something of a labored effort and a coatrack. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 16:23, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
			:::: Now, "coatrack" is a far better example of Misplaced Pages jargon. :-) ] (]) 18:08, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
			::I wondered where the post went too... One minute it was there, the next it was just gone. --] (]) 21:15, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
			::: FYI, ]. ] (]) 18:18, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
			== On Beauty ==
			Hi, could you please take a look at ]? Now there is a third SPA, an IP editor actually, posting that same link (and messing up some of the rest of the article. Thanks. ] (]) 22:36, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
			: I have blocked that and the other previous account. The IP is dynamic. If it repeats without unblock being agreed, then any admin should be able to block a reincarnation or semi-protect against IP disruption. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:29, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
			::Thanks! ] (]) 05:42, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
			:::Hi, ] has been reverted by three different IP editors. What would you think about protecting from IP edits for a while? Thanks. ] (]) 14:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
			:::: Semiprotected for 3 weeks. If it goes further, seek pending changes protection at ]. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 16:38, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
			::::: Just to let you know, I reported this at ]. IP vandal is back. Thanks. ] (]) 07:30, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
			:::::: I've put a fairly long pending changes on. Still gives us the option to wack-a-mole with the IP without damaging the article. ]] 08:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
			Hi, could you please have a look at ]? Same editor is back. ] (]) 17:46, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
			==Fair use rationale for File:Drauper freak wave.png==
			]
			Thanks for uploading or contributing to ''']'''. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under ] but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Misplaced Pages constitutes fair use. Please go to ] and edit it to include a ].
			If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "]" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on ]. If you have any questions please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-no fair use rationale-notice --> ] (]) 18:02, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
			: Old upload, formal templated rationales now added. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 19:19, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
			== Welcome to the elections! ==
			Dear FT2, thank you for nominating yourself as a candidate in the ]. On behalf of the coordinators, allow me to welcome you to the election and make a few suggestions to help you get set up. By now, you ought to have written your ]{{#ifexist:Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2010/Candidates/FT2/Statement|<!-- exists -->|&nbsp;()}}, which should be no more than 400 words and declare any alternate or former user accounts you have contributed under (or, in the case of privacy concerns, a declaration that you have disclosed them to the Arbitration Committee). Although there are no fixed guidelines for how to write a statement, note that many candidates treat this as an opportunity, in their own way, to put a cogent case as to why editors should vote for them—highlighting the strengths they would bring to the job, and convincing the community they would cope with the workload and responsibilities of being an arbitrator.
			You should at this point have your own ]{{#ifexist:Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2010/Candidates/FT2/Questions|<!-- exists -->|&nbsp;()}}; feel free to begin answering the questions as you please. Together, the nomination statement and questions subpage should be transcluded to ], whose ]{{#ifexist:Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2010/Candidates/FT2|<!-- exists -->|&nbsp;()}} will serve as the central location for discussion of your candidacy. If you experience any difficulty setting up these pages, please follow the links in the footer below. If you need assistance, on this or any other matter (including objectionable questions or commentary by others on your candidate pages), please notify the coordinators at ]. If you have followed these instructions correctly, congratulations, you are now officially a candidate for the Arbitration Committee. Good luck! ] 22:10, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
			{{ACEcan|FT2}}
			== Questions from Lar ==
			Hi. Best of luck in your upcoming trial by fire. As in ] ] I have a ] I ask candidates. This year there are restrictions on the length and number of questions on the "official" page for questions, restrictions which I do not agree with, but which I will abide by. I nevertheless think my questions are important and relevant (and I am not the only person to think so, in previous years they have drawn favorable comment from many, including in at least one case indepth analysis of candidates answers to them by third parties). You are invited to answer them if you so choose. I suggest that the talk page of your questions page is a good place to put them and I will do so with your acquiescence (for example, SirFozzie's ] already has them as do the majority of other candidates). Your answers, (or non-answers should you decide not to answer them), that will be a factor in ] of your candidacy. Please let me know as soon as practical what your wish is. Thanks and best of luck. (please answer here, I'll see it, and it keeps things together better) ++]: ]/] 22:12, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
			: I look forward to them. I see we have many candidates in the last day or so. My concern would purely be "will there be time to answer more". Some answers may end up briefer and less nuanced than they should for that reason. My Q&A in 2007 was 370 K long, so I've done long answers on many matters previously (including older versions of yours) that do reflect nuances. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 22:40, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
			:: Feel free to cut and paste where that makes sense... or comment on how your answers have changed. They have been added. ++]: ]/] 01:52, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
			== Misplaced Pages:Revision deletion/Admin ==
			Just came across ] when I was searching for something else; seems like a now-redundant old draft. Just wondered if you want to delete it or if there's some reason to keep. ] <sup>]</sup> 01:07, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
			: Yes - done. Thanks. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 01:17, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
			== ] ==
			What do you mean by "We do have articles on "multiple characters who share a name", whether related, in the same topic area, or unrelated"? Why should we have articles on characters who have no actual connection?
			{{Quote| In Misplaced Pages, things are grouped into articles based on what they are, not what they are called by.| ]}}
			Judging by that AfD and the previous one, it seems clear that all that information shouldn't be on the same page, so I'm sure we ''shouldn't'' have articles on things with nothing in common but name. ] (]) 15:54, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
			: The example I was thinking of was ], where 4 completely different characters spread across what looks like 3 completely different tenuously connected programs are covered in one article. ] is a non-fiction example where many completely different uses in completely different fields from music to statistics to chemistry use the word but with something in common - the concept of "breaking something down into smaller pieces to understand it better". The topic is covered in an article not a disambiguation page.
			: In this case these are not unconnected "Ransacks". (For example, it doesn't contain examples such as "Ransack - the looting or pillaging of a city or country" and a link to an article on ransacks of towns.) They are all Ransacks ''in the Transformers series and universe''. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 19:27, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
			::Those K-9s were all robot dogs as far as I can tell. They are related concepts since the subsequent ones were based on the original, as a real-life design influence. Those Ransacks are simply characters from one brand who share a name. They don't look or act alike. They're not even the same species of Transformer (Ransack from the ''Armada'' comic books is a Mini-con, a separate species with separate origins compared to the rest of the Transformers). I understand there are articles like ] that covers multiple subjects, but those things actually ''have'' a relation beyond name (For the Batman of ZEA thing, it's clear that the one from ] was ''based on'' the Silver Age character in some form). ] (]) 19:53, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
			: That's exactly the point. ''You'' can't tell if they are the same or not (nor could I!). You don't know if someone who's a Doctor Who fan would be horrified to see K-9 mark I, II, II, IV grouped as "all robot dogs"; they aren't all even in the same story or series, they are completely different characters. Yet they have enough in common ''as Misplaced Pages article subjects'' to share an article. Similar logic applies to Analysis, Ransack and various other topics. The AFD decision was because 1/ they are all "Ransacks" and all from the same fiction series/universe so it's not entirely unreasonable: there's considerable precedent that different characters or terms with a common thread (same series, same root) can and do share one article, 2/ there was no clear consensus otherwise at the AFD. If you're still not sure, it's easy to re-check at ]. Link it to this thread though. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 20:39, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
			::The difference between the K-9s and the ransacks is that the K-9s were all based on the original. The Ransacks are ''entirely separate concepts''. They don't look or behave like each other. A more relevant comparison is i the article ] was also about "The Master of the Land o Fiction". Those two have about as much relation as all the Ransacks. I'm not sure what you mean by "cannot tell if they are the same or not. ] is not the same thing as an ]. K-9s are separate things ''in-story'' but they're related in terms of as real-world design inspiration. Ransacks are entirely different characters. As I've mentioned, they don't even look alike. They're not really based on one another the way the K-9s are. ] (]) 20:53, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
			== Deleted archives ==
			I see that you deleted your archives (]) on 27 August 2009. Is there any reason for preventing non-admins from seeing this? <span style="font-variant:small-caps">] <sup>'''(])'''</sup></span> 23:04, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
			:Also, as your deletion message says 'Refactoring'; what refactoring was done? I can't quickly see any refactoring being done at that time <span style="font-variant:small-caps">] <sup>'''(])'''</sup></span> 23:10, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
			::If you're running for ArbCom, your talkpage history needs to be visible to non-admins. Seconding John's question, is there some reason that you, or I, or another admin should not restore these forthwith? ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 23:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
			::: No need. When I archived it was with copy/paste not page move. So the talk history is still 100% visible in this page's . Up till August 2009 I added a reorganized copy to a separate archive page when pruning the old threads. It was a habit from the days when I would work on a set of pages for many months and might need to refer back to old discussions related to those articles. My editing style changed years ago but I kept it from habit. That's what you're seeing.
			::: You can restore it if you like, but anyone wanting to see my talk history doesn't need access to that page and I wouldn't rely on it. They can just look in this page's history for "archive"/"archiving" with page text search (or where byte count drops by 100K or so). The talk page history itself is the better source, because as a page for personal reference, the archive was not a 100% copy. It's been deleted a year now. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 01:53, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
			::::The archive is much more accessible, covering 4 years of your history on one page, and has ]. non-admins should be able to access this. Typically when people don't provide an archive, they provide a set of links to all archived versions in the history. You are providing neither. <span style="font-variant:small-caps">] <sup>'''(])'''</sup></span> 03:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
			::::: Not sure why anyone would link to the archive, but the link can easily be redirected to the relevant history revision. Also disagree that people "typically" provide links to all archived versions in history - or at least it's not a practice I've seen as a norm. If you sampled editors who remove rather than archive old posts, very few seem to provide a list of links to the history revisions. If they're needed then we look them up in history. Mine had precisely two incoming links in 4 years, both years old now. Suggests it's only salient now, in the context of this specific election, for one week. Then it goes back to being unwanted.
			::::: List of versions where threads were removed as old: . Before this there was ad-hoc removal of odd threads. My talk page has 12 deleted revisions, all apparently routine related to sockpuppetry policy and removed by an administrator in 2006 as being posted by banned user ]. Apart from that and as far as I know, all edits ever posted to that page are public and in its history.
			::::: ''(Caveat - I haven't really operated a formal archive system nor expected to be asked for one. I don't have a foolproof way to produce one. The above list is generated by skimming my page history looking for where the byte count dropped. So I can't guarantee the above links will show all posts (there may be odd removals I missed) nor that any archive page I created for my own use will show all posts.)''
			::::: ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 04:37, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
			== Disturbing Behavior at FT2's Question Page ==
			''This message has been posted to both involved parties' talk pages in identical form. Please discuss this further at ], rather than on your individual pages.''
			Let me make this very clear. This has to stop, if not because it reflects poorly on the two of you, if not because it reflects poorly on the elections, but at the very least because it is, at this point, disruptive. You are bickering over information that the public can not see, and accusations are being traded that can not be verified by the community at large. At this point, the damage is limited, and both of you have much more to gain by shaking hands and moving on. If there is a real concern here, it should be brought to ArbCom in private. If this is only posturing, it has to end. This is neither the time nor the place for this concern to be voiced, and while I do not have the authority to compel you to stop, I would kindly ask (in the strongest possible way) that it does.
			Thank you, <span style="text-shadow:#E61994 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em">] <sub style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em">]</sub></span> 05:58, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
			: Thanks. I would say that responding to a pointy question by asking for data and suggesting email is the correct thing to do. I also asked for it to be removed. However it's solved now and hopefully all okay. I've checked the data he finally gave, the data at Arbcom is unsurprisingly correct. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 07:46, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
			:*Asking FT2 embarrassing questions about the scandals of his wiki-career "has to stop"? Well, why why do you suppose it hasn't stopped, Sven? Because FT2 had the questionable judgment to list himself as a candidate in these elections. People who do that must be prepared for questions, and if their wiki-past is chequered and their election statement full of holes, the questions will be sharp and difficult. If they weren't, it would indeed reflect poorly on the elections. This is very much the time and place for concerns to be voiced. ] | ] 21:22, 30 November 2010 (UTC).
			:: Aside from the mis-assumption about judgment, Bishonen is completely right here and I concur with her in all she says. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
			*FT, would you mind undeleting ]? It was linked to ], but it's now coming up as a red link and it may contain some of the clarifications people are looking for (in the #Necessary Clarification section). ] <small><sup>]]</sup></small> 02:40, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
			:*It's okay, my mistake, I replaced it with a link to the page history. ] <small><sup>]]</sup></small> 09:06, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
			::: Everything should be in page history. Much more reliable than a link to that page (as discussed above). ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
			== Query ==
			I spent some time today rereading the OrangeMarlin and Oversighted edits debacle of late 2007-early 2009. One thing that confused me was Thatcher's statement in ] ("FT2, FloNight and I also discussed the issue of the oversighted edits in an IRC chat on April 24, 2008. Arbcom has the log. Thatcher 19:26, 14 January 2009 (UTC)"). That seemingly contradicts your ] and previous posts you made, which indicate that you were unaware of any such oversighted edits (although I can think of a number of things that would explain the situation). Could you clarify please? ] ''(])'' 22:05, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
			: Thanks for asking. I have a fair memory on it. The machine I need to check it for certain is inaccessible - I should have access back shortly if all's well. Taking note of the query I'll do what I can to make that sooner than later. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 12:44, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
			:: I've tracked down the log now. It bears out what I stated - the only statements are ones that speak of oversighted edits as a completely speculative allegation he ''could potentially'' make.
			:: The log I have starts where I'm asking Thatcher and FloNight to agree that his wish for an on-wiki case is granted and the user allowed a public unban hearing visible to the community for transparency, if he wants, because then evidence can be openly scrutinized. Otherwise if heard in private there will be suspicion whatever the outcome. I get overruled because of their perception it will be disruptive to allow a platform - FloNight noting that he was banned for good cause, Thatcher pointing out that it doesn't matter whether there is anything to back up his claims or not, as - if no improper edits can be found - he would just allege material was oversighted instead (or if nothing's found in the oversight log either, that the developers removed it). Thatcher and Flonight then discuss how to deal with him as an obsessive or disruptive user and that I should not worry about him being given a private hearing instead.
			:: That's all that's said about the oversighted edits in that log. As I stated, there's '''nothing at all''' that discusses whether specific edits were oversighted or would alert a user that actual edits were being claimed to be. There was no ''discussion of'' any oversighted edits, just discussion by Thatcher that ''if allowed a public case he might claim'' there were oversighted edits (and try can cause drama which both stated to me, would be pointless to allow). I've also emailed you the April 2008 log I have, either for review or to verify against the version from Thatcher. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 06:54, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
			That is a great response to the question FT2, but it is based on your 'data' and is not the right answer. The following dates could be slightly wrong as I haven't looked closely at timezones.
			* On April 21 (F43A818E433D44648BB0569FDCB686CB), the banned user emails Arbcom with a link which includes a crat saying publicly that they are emailing the details to the Foundation for review.
			* On April 22 (480dbb5d.1f15300a.0410.01b4), FT2 provides Arbcom with a summary of the user in question, leaving out many specifics that I know he knew back in December 2007.
			* On April 22 (54ADCFC31B35499C86E666B5197CB5D0), the banned user emailed Arbcom, forwarding their email from 8 December 2007 which contained all the details necessary to find these edits, being the first two edits FT2 ever made. FT2 claims to have forgotten that he started Misplaced Pages on the article ]. Even if he had forgotten, these emails were a reminder. The original email had been sent to two 'crats in December 2007. Jimmy Wales has also been sent these emails between December and April; I don't know whether they were received or not.
			* On April 24, there were a few arbitrator comments in a separate thread. MessageID 16032ea0804241712n3ee276cayd178991b1e0df657 shows that the problem was properly understood. At this stage, FT2 (48111d14.04eb300a.328e.097f) is still participating in the relevant discussions.
			* On April 25 (86CD3F11-2D27-44EC-A05E-3107DCA4965E), an arbitrator responded to the banned user, indicating that the committee would discuss the matter, and proceeded to start the arbcom discussion.
			* On April 25 (481265c7.2435440a.29eb.0c79), FT2 gave the arbs a brain dump of how he thought the arbs should handle the matter, whilst also indicating that he knew he was considered involved. Another arb promptly told him to keep his opinions to himself. FT2 respond acknowledging that his comments are as a party rather than as an arbitrator.
			The Arbs in that IRC discussion may not have mentioned the specifics, but they were aware of them, or should have, or could have easily found them in their Inbox.
			And riddle me this; why were you involved in that IRC discussion at all? You should have known to stay well away from this issue. By participating in it, you give up your right to claim you know nothing when the details were right there under your nose. <span style="font-variant:small-caps">] <sup>'''(])'''</sup></span> 10:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
			: John, this is getting pretty close to trolling. Thanks for the compliment and for jumping in with a mix of irrelevant emails and unfounded claims, but since the log was sent independently to Arbcom by Thatcher (as far as I can tell) it's verifiable and anyone can check the description is accurate.
			: Turning to the emails: like it or not, those emails were filtered and that was entirely what any arb <u>should</u> have done. You're suggesting that parties to a case watching their opponents' emails to Arbcom is acceptable. ''It is not''. The community in 2007 and I strongly agreed on this point (this was a "big issue" at ACE2007). Parties to a case should not be shown or seek to view emails sent by opponents to the Arbcom mailing list, even if technically they could.
			{{hidden | style=margin-left:25px | headerstyle=background-color:#c0c0c0 | contentstyle=border:#c0c0c0 solid 1px;font-size:90%;padding:10px| 1=Extract from election platform in 2007 | 2=
			''From Arbcom election Q&A, December 2007 (]):''
			'''Question by Irpen:'''
			: Arbitrator's private mailing list, known as Arbcom-l and the arbitrators only IRC channel may obviously include information that cannot be made public under any circumstances. Additionally, being aware of the intra-ArbCom communication may give case parties an obvious advantage over their opponents. Should users who are parties of the case, comment on the case, present evidence on the case, be allowed to have read access to the list where the case is discussed by the decision makers?
			'''Response:'''
			: "One line answer -- ''' 3/ Clear and strong oppose to parties being able to influence, shoulder-read, or be in the frame, in cases where they have involvement, but concerns over the best way to achieve that technically in practice.''' (emphasis in original)
			: "on-arbitrators have no way to tell whether (and how well) these things are being taken care of. Hildanknight used a good word discussing the Singapore elections yesterday: "Incorruptible". I think that's what's needed. Arbitrators so strict in their self-managing, that even if they were able to access such matters they wouldn't use it, nor would others be influenced by them."
			If you don't approve of this stance, then we differ.
			}}
			: Asking on IRC that those handling his case give the guy what he wants (a public hearing) is not by any stretch "giving up a right". It's complete fairness and best practice, and needed to happen. That's why I requested that chat. There was not one statement in it to suggest an actual oversighting had happened. That's a red herring. The description above is accurate and NW (who's been sent a copy) would surely say something if not.
			: Perhaps that scale of integrity doesn't occur to you as something people do. Luckily as it's in the chat log itself, which I gather was sent independently to Arbcom, and in repeated emails to Arbcom demanding the user was given a hearing without my access to his email dialog, I don't have to ask that my word be taken on it. Be very careful not to assume I saw his emails just by being on the list. If I had seen them, that would be a black mark.
			: Of your 6 bullets -- (1/3/4/5) were all communications between Arbcom and the user (or by Arbitrators on the user's case) to which I excluded myself or was not included in the first place. I avoided reading emails that would infringe the user's right to a fair hearing. (2) is merely a vague claim "leaving out many specifics that I know he knew" Specify please. (6) was my demand that the case were held in a way that minimized harm and gave the best chance for a fair hearing, and listed the factors that could be seen as fair or pro/con public hearing. As a party, much less an arb, that's completely correct (even if others would have appreciated my not being so strongly concerned for the other user's reassurance). The IRC chat was my request to give the user the public hearing he wanted. I was declined on the basis he might use it as a soapbox. There was '''nothing''' in the chat to suggest to a participant that this was an actual issue.
			: ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 18:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
			==Fair use rationale for File:Bestiarii (EUR Museum).jpg==
			]
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			:Old upload, query posted at ]. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 12:33, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
			== Editing stats - opting in request ==
			Hi FT2. I am writing my own ArbCom Election voting guide. One of the criteria I am reviewing is candidate's activity. Would you consider opting in for , so that we can see your monthly (and yearly) distribution of edits? Thanks, --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 00:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
			:Ping. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 23:50, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
			== I missed something from you earlier ==
			Hi, FT2, I only just discovered ] comment of yours from earlier. Sorry about that. At this point, it seems largely moot, but I've written a brief reply on what little I thought still mattered at this point. Mostly just didn't want you to think I was deliberately ignoring you. Cheers. ] ] 11:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
			== Thank you ==
			FT2, thank you for your helpful sourcing improvements to the article ]. Much appreciated, -- ''']''' (]) 04:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
			== Christmas Card ==
			{{User:DeltaQuad/Christmas2010}}
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			== IRC logs ==
			{{collapse top|title=Post by banned user - collapsed, see ]}}
			Any idea how I could get a copy of the logs referred to here . Thanks. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:58, 4 January 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			: , it's not at all likely. Contents of private chats amicably dealt with are unlikely to be passed around publicly. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 03:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			== ] ==
			=== Editing through full protection ===
			I know it's just cleanup, but still not a good idea, if avoidable. --] (]) 20:30, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			::As a general statement, SarekOfVulcan is of course correct about the policy. However, this article is going to viewed over the next few hours by tens of thousands of readers. As such, I think that WP:IAR would provide support for wholly uncontroversial cleanup edits and the like. This is an exceptional, urgent situation. ] (]) 20:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			:::I couldn't agree more, and I've already stated such on the talkpage, but I reverted my earlier changes. Perhaps we'll need to clarify this in future... ] (]) 20:34, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			::::Misplaced Pages policy is that admin privileges are not to be abused for overriding page protection. Is that somehow unclear? I am slightly surprised that an admin is not clear on this. ] (]) 20:39, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			:::::] to make the page good for the many thousands of views it's getting. That's obvious. Thanks. ] (]) 20:40, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			::::::You cite ] as an excuse for admin privilege abuse? That is ''so'' the wrong way for an admin to think and behave. ] (]) 20:53, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			:::::: (edit conflict) I don't have a problem with the IP user having this concern. Admins should be accountable for their edits and admin actions - of which editing through protection is one. That accountability is to all users, and the question is a fair one. I have explained my reasoning below, it is roughly the same as Newyorkbrad's and The Rambling Man's. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 20:56, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			=== Your edits of ] ===
			Please stop editing a protected article. As an admin you should know that admin tools are not to be used for overriding page protection. ] (]) 20:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			:See my comment above. ] (]) 20:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			=== Giffords ===
			led me to believe that we shouldn't be making cosmetic edits to the fully-protected article. I reverted all my changes post-full-protection, but it all looks a little inconsistent to me. I'd expect some kerfuffle at AN/I about all this... Oh well, whatever. Just thought you should know. ] (]) 20:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			:See my comment above. ] (]) 20:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			=== Comment on the above ===
			Full page protection generally applies to contentious issues. If any user objected to an edit, it would then of course need talk page discussion, but cleanup of sections unrelated to the issue are not usually a problem.
			]: ''"Pages that are protected because of content disputes should not be edited except to make changes which are uncontroversial <u>or</u> for which there is clear consensus"''.
			This is going to be an extremely high traffic article with much public attention over the next few days. It is also a BLP and requires the highest quality of sourcing and writing. The content issue is purely related to her medical condition after the shooting and compliance with BLP policy in the wake of media focus. The rest is not contentious, and I personally do not intend to make any edits other than quality / factuality / tone. If any specific edit is in fact contentious then it should be ], or discussed first if likely to be contentious. Administrators are trusted to understand this - editing through protection is not trivial.
			But "]", ], ], and ] all come into play here. As Newyorkbrad correctly says, this is a case where cleanup is appropriate and sensible. The page is protected purely to prevent inappropriate BLP editing on the question of her death and medical condition, and vandalism or very poor editing, due to its high profile.
			]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 20:51, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			: Update - I am making one edit on the shooting, namely to note she was one of several victims, which better represents the incident. Hopefully not contentious. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 21:05, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			::Note that at the moment, the page is semiprotected rather than full-protected. ] (]) 21:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			::: Thanks. I thought it was better to be open about it, in case the user saw the edit and was concerned what was going on. But you're right, not needed now. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 21:11, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
			== Request ==
			Hi FT2, you are not one to habitually agree with me. :-) Could you have a look at ] and the underlying content issues. You have a good eye for ]. I'd value your feedback. Regards, ] <sup>]</sup> 17:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
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			== ] grammatical error ==
			I arrived at the ''Misplaced Pages:Requests for oversight'' page through a series of links, as I am prone to do. While reading through the page to see what it was all about, I discovered that under the "Necessary information" section right around the middle of the page, there was the sentence "...which can saves time". However, there was (for reasons unclear to me), no talk page for the article to report this. Looking through the revision history, I saw that you had done some grammar correctional edits, and, currently, the most recent editor for the page. Forgive me if I'm asking the wrong thing of the wrong person, but, because of the aforementioned reasons and since you're an administrator, I was wondering if you would be able to correct this error. My preemptive gratitude, ]]] 22:10, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
			: I've fixed the typo, and tried to make it clearer how cases get reported. Hope this helps - go take a look. I've credited you in the edit summary. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 12:04, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
			::Thank you. I can now rest easier tonight knowing that an important Wikipedian page is now free of grammatical error. My gratitude, ]]] 01:24, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
			== Details of IRC chat ==
			{{collapse top|Collapsed}}
			This refers .
			You said earlier you could not make the IRC log public. You seem to have the only record.
			#Can you say what time the chat occurred?
			#Do you still have a copy of the log, or have you destroyed it?
			#Did you know at the time of Scribe's email that you had the only log?
			#Why did you drop out of the elections? WJ Scribe claims he does not remember any of the events you refer to, and he claims (per email) that your account is incorrect anyway - he did not inform you of any oversighting or anything like that. It doesn't make sense you should drop out o/a of something that no one ever remembers.
			Best ] (]) 22:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			: ] a post and attempt to engage despite an Arbcom ruling by a banned user ( by CheckUser), with whom I will not interact on-wiki. Previous question and reply also collapsed too. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 18:34, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
			:: Agreed, FT2. That seems very likely. --] <small>(] | ])</small> 19:39, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
			== Ping! ==
			See ]. I'm extending the same invitation I made to Risker there to you, and to anyone else you can think of to invite. <span style="font-family:Georgia;">]</span> 01:31, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
			== Category:Persons convicted of fraud ==
			Since you ] in the recent CfD of ] I wanted to inform you that the category was recently recreated and relisted. Here is a link to the current CfD should you wish to participate. ]. Cheers.] (]) 03:49, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
			== "Anime" vandalism by Russian IPs. ==
			Hello. Sorry to disturb you. I don't know if TV or anime is your cup of tea, but you should anyway check the following IPs, all of which are trying to put "anime" hoaxes and other misinformation and "connections" to the Philippine cartoon, ]. I've also noted that users of these addresses (possibly a single person) have also put unsourced information and categories on other unrelated anime articles and several others. Here are the addresses I found so far (he may have used more):
			* {{ipvandal|92.100.237.11}}
			* {{ipvandal|92.100.178.61}}
			* {{ipvandal|92.100.161.170}}
			* {{ipvandal|92.100.182.39}}
			* {{ipvandal|92.100.177.214}}
			* {{ipvandal|92.100.238.160}}
			* {{ipvandal|91.122.87.45}}
			* {{ipvandal|91.122.89.81}}
			To top this all off, these addresses are based in Russia. So obviously, the vandal surely couldn't provide sources for his edits as the said cartoon (if I'm not mistaken) has not been aired out of the Philippines. So what do you think? Can a block be imposed on either or both of the 92.100.128.0/17 and 91.122.80.0/20 ranges? It seems the addresses are assigned to the same provider. Thanks in advance. - ] | <small>] | ]</small> 03:16, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
			== IP block exemption ==
			You’ve ] with an IP block exemption. I’m blocked again, it seems. Could you please look into this? --] (]) 08:29, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
			: Is being handled. Cheers, ] 19:31, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
			: Has been solved, apparently, but I still wonder what happened and why. --] (]) 02:18, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
			:: It was . Sorry to bother you. --] (]) 01:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
			== Las Vegas ==
			Hmmm...you've made the sentence say that the growth of LV in the '40s was due almost entirely to the Manhattan Project. But the source says that the growth of LV between 1945 and 1962 was that way. You might want to double check the source there. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 02:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
			: Source states: ''"Between 1945 and 1962, about 100 above-ground tests were carried out. The light pulse, shock wave and mushroom cloud could all be seen from Las Vegas. Many times, residents threw cocktail parties and gathered outside while a test was being carried out. The early growth of Las Vegas was due almost entirely to the boost in prosperity it got from the huge numbers of scientists, test ground staff and soldiers that worked on the atomic tests."
			: The focus of the article is on the connection of bomb tests and LV, not on the history of LV. The source looks like it's making 2 sets of claims:
			:# Between 1945 and 1962 many tests took place, and much partying was had.
			:# The early growth of LV was due almost entirely to the personnel of these tests.
			: I had read "early growth" as not necessarily being the same as "1945-1962". It could probably be read other ways. What do you reckon? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
			::"Early growth" is pretty vague, anyway -- Las Vegas history goes back well into the 19th century, and most observers would say "wait a minute, early growth -- what about the Hoover Dam, which drew many thousands of people into the area?" I don't think the assertion or the "almost entirely" characterization is necessarily accurate, and perhaps a historical source rather than a technical writer source for such information would be superior. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
			== Stop paranoid censorship ! ==
			Good morning FT2,
			I just want to let you know that there is in your rank of unpaid moderators a guy whose skill consists in applying your rules in a stubborn and almost inept way.
			Moreover, this person seems to have psychological disorders as he always reverts "vandalism" everywhere, all the time. With him, you have absolutely hunted down a real gem: he is a real know-all! His pseudo is Logical Cowboy.
			I think it is very charitable on the part of Misplaced Pages to provide the laid-off worker with occupations, but it could be nice if you would not impose persons with social misfit upon net surfers...
			Thank you in advance,
			Jay <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 06:44, 10 March 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			: It's easier to see what has gone on with an example or two. Can you provide a link or explanation, and I'll take a look at the actions the user has taken. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 15:23, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
			== WikiProject Misplaced Pages has an additional userbox available for you, FT2 ==
			* {{Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Misplaced Pages/userbox/UserWikiProjectWikipedia}}
			<pre>{{Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Misplaced Pages/userbox/UserWikiProjectWikipedia}}</pre>
			Seeing now that you may be the only project member to use another project userbox which is not listed in the project page's Templates section, as none were previously available there, you're of course invited to add that userbox to the Templates section if you wish to share it.
			] (]) 15:59, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
			: Thanks. I prefer the one you link to so I've adopted it, and have merged it into my own preferred style with shorter wording. Good job ! ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
			== BLP, ethnicity, gender ==
			]
			Some say source requirements for ethnicity and gender of ] don't apply to ] living persons, simply because the two words aren't in the policy. (Apparently, they think it should only apply to dead people.) I see that you have participated on this topic at the Village Pump.
			They also are trying to remove the notability, relevance, and self-identification criteria at ], but that's another fight for another day, I'm simply too busy to watch two fronts at the same time.
			We're on the 6th day. Traditionally, these polls go for 7; unless there's no obvious consensus, when we go for an additional 7 days.<br />--] (]) 16:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
			== AONN Records ==
			Hi FT - thanks for poking at the AONN stuff earlier. The author of the article has started replying again and I would ask you to look at as it seems to be for lack of a better way to put it a little bit crazy. I'm not especially bothered by it but since looking at his contribution history he seems to have done this sort of thing before, a block or more stern warning of some nature may be in order.
			As an additional minor note, the only reason there were personal details of any sort in my post was because their disclosure seemed to be in the interests of the policy. The only details I posted were already disclosed on our userpages, anyway.
			] (]) 05:09, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
			: No, I'm not going to block for a post like that. It's unlikely to accomplish anything. It isn't doing any harm. Let the AFD complete and a decision be made, and see what happens. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 12:25, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
			== Notification: changes to "Mark my edits as minor by default" preference ==
			Hello there. This is an automated message to tell you about the gradual phasing out of the preference entitled "Mark all edits minor by default", which you currently have (or very recently had) enabled.
			On 13 March 2011, this preference was hidden from the user preferences screen as part of efforts to prevent its accidental misuse (], guidelines for use at ]). This had the effect of locking users in to their existing preference, which, in your case, was <code>true</code>. To complete the process, your preference will automatically be changed to <code>false</code> in the next few days. This does not require any intervention on your part and all users will still be able to manually mark their edits as being minor in the usual way.
			For well-established users such as yourself there is ''']''' involving custom JavaScript. If you have any problems, feel free to drop me a note.
			Thank you for your understanding and happy editing :) Editing on behalf of ], ] (]) 20:17, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
			== Re: ] ==
			You know, on taking a look at the article, I am not dead sure why it was deleted either - despite my having done that. Whether it was from a conscious decision or a simple error at the time, I agree with you at present and will restore the article with a few cleanups. Some of it does have a slight LOOK of promotional material (the "goals" section primarily), which I'll try to polish up. Thanks a bunch for bringing this to my attention. - ] (]) 18:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
			== What counts as consensus ==
			Hello. I was hoping as an admin you could give me some advice. I am thinking about deleting a sentence in a rather controversial article. Basically the article is about a famous song performed by a living person, but the sentence is about that persons actions and allegations against that person which I think mean the sentence should be held to WP:BLP standards. I posted on the talk page that I wanted to delete the sentence. No one has responded to the suggestion either for or against. Does no response after a month imply consensus about the change, especially considering the talk page has had about 75 edits since I have posted the comment. I want to "be bold" but I was reverted the last time I undid this sentence without any explanation. I don't want to start an edit war. How do I proceed. I tried to comb the wiki guidelines but couldn't find the relevant advice. Thanks --] (]) 02:04, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
			: My wiki email is in my signature, go ahead and post the article and issue here, or email it if you like, I'll take a look. Hard to comment without seeing it. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 02:33, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
			::Here is the paragraph, of which the last sentence I want to delete, its in the ] article.
			:::Fans and critics alike noticed many similarities to Madonna's "Express Yourself". While some reviewers surmised that the similarities would damage the song's appeal, others felt that “Born This Way” was nonetheless a completely separate piece of work. Neil McCormick of the Daily Telegraph noted that the imitative nature of the song would affect perceptions of Gaga's artistry, commenting that song was " a reworking of Madonna's 'Express Yourself' with a touch of 'Vogue,' which is a bit too much Madonna for someone who is trying to establish her own identity as the, er, new Madonna." Ann Powers of the Los Angeles Times, however, concluded that “Born This Way” had an entirely different message from the Madonna songs it was being compared to and further defended the song by saying, “Whether its sound comes too close to one or another Madonna song seems beside the point; what current pop hit doesn't go green by recycling something familiar?” Similarly Rob Sheffield from Rolling Stone dismissed the comparison and defended Lady Gaga in his review of the song by saying, “You can complain all you want about the tip of the leather cap to "Express Yourself," which was just Madonna’s knock-off of the Staple Singers’ ‘Respect Yourself.’” Gaga herself further addressed the comparisons on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno, explaining that she "got an e-mail from people and her sending me their love and complete support on behalf of the single.” Gaga then proclaimed, “...if the Queen says it shall be, then it shall be.” CNN later reported that Madonna's representative was "not aware that Madonna sent Gaga an e-mail."
			::Here is the comment I posted about why I thought the last sentence was innapropriate and why it should be deleted
			:::This is an article (referring to the CNN reference) that has only one sentence about the incident, and provides no details about any context of the interview with the representative. I don't see how one representative being "unaware" about the email contributes to this article in a encyclopedic way. In fact the article does not even mention the question the representative was asked. I think when or if Madonna or a representative actually claims that Madonna's camp did not send the email (not just being unaware of the email) then a sentence should be added. Otherwise I fail to see how this sentence keeps with WP standards. Is there a WP:reliable source that talks about this beyond the one sentence quote in the CNN article? I'll let people find such a source before I delete the sentence again, because I agree that something should be there if we can get a source that concretely says that a representative refutes Gaga's claim. Otherwise the sentence fails basic WP standards. --MATThematical (talk) 17:33, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
			== ] Deletion ==
			Since you all will not let the page stay up, can you redirect it to ] wiki page. He works for him, developes his website, and his is road Dj? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:00, 27 March 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			: No. Misplaced Pages is not a promotional website. It is a neutral reference work.
			: To underline this, our guidelines on redirection also state that "self promotion" is a reason why redirects might be deleted, not why they might be created. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 08:52, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
			How is it self-promotion when I when I am writing what I know about the guy? Like I told the other MODS, I did an article for University OF Houston paper on this guy a year ago and felt that he deserved a more credit than he gets!
			== ] of ] ==
			]] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 21:18, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
			== Bill4Time mentioned ==
			Referring to the Nomination for Deletion ], you suggest that Bill4Time be "mentioned" under List of Legal Software. Would that enable the Bill4Time Misplaced Pages page to still exist? ] (]) 20:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
			: As I see it, at present Bill4time doesn't meet our inclusion criteria. So a separate "stand alone" article on it isn't appropriate. Other users may agree or disagree, which is what "Articles for deletion" aims to discuss. That would not impact on its inclusion within a "List of...." type topic, as these don't require listed items to be notable.
			: I see you've added it to ] and ], so those are the kinds of lists I mean, and the deletion discussion will not affect them. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 21:17, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
			:: However, the ] did present all listed as "notable time tracking software packages and web hosted services" and instructions on the edit screen specifically stated that all listed are to be linked to a Wiki page. ] (]) 21:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
			:: Some lists have that criterion (it's a decision by editors, see ]). If a list article has a criterion that it only includes entries that are notable - or that all entries must have their own article which comes to the same thing - then if the article is deleted the entry will be removed from the list. Other lists may include entries that are notable or non-notable if editors agree. Again that's because Misplaced Pages is selective, and some items may be well known but not be deemed notable for a reference work. It depends on the AFD outcome. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 22:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
			== Notability of books ==
			I got your note on notability of books and would be happy to discuss that with you. Unfortunately I won't have time over the next few days, but I'll get back to you. Overall my feeling is that if reviews on publication don't count as significant coverage - if we insist on some kind of test of enduring for the ages before we consider a book to be notable - then we will have almost no books here. IMO a book that met that kind of criterion would be some kind of sociological phenomenon - with maybe two or three books a year qualifying. This is simply because that's the way books are written about - nobody writes a review of a book that came out years ago. My interpretation of the current guideline is that full, original reviews in important sources on publication DO qualify the book as notable, and that what you are proposing would be a major change. But let's talk it over when I get back online next week, and if you think the conversation should be moved to ] we could do that. Thanks for your note. --] (]) 05:59, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
			Hi again, and thanks for your thoughtful note on my talk page. As I understand it, your feeling is that the publication of a book is a kind of news item, so that book reviews on publication fall under ] or ] or similar policy - and that there needs to be additional coverage about the continuing significance of the book in order for it to be notable. Am I summarizing you correctly? <br> I don't agree with that approach. I don't think it's realistic - my observation of the literary reporting scene is that even the most notable books get reviewed within a few months of their release and never again, and that requiring ongoing or longterm coverage is too severe a requirement. "Significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources" is all that is required by the current guidelines at ]. <br> To sample the opinions of other editors, I thought I should do a review of past deletion discussions, a sort of ] for books. Taking a look at the current ] I find several discussions about books. Examples of the comments at these live discussions:
			Arguing for '''Delete''':
			*"fails WP:BK; no reliable 3rd party references; no reviews; searching online databases like WorldCat doesn't show any hits "
			*"Can't find any independent sources that would pass as reliable sources even mentioning the book in passing. The book exists, yes, but no one seems to have noticed it."
			*"Amazon.com and Worldcat show no professional reviews."
			*"Not independently notable. I too have been unable to find reviews. (I declined a imminent PROD to give myself time to check ). The only reliable way of making reasonably certain there are no reviews is to check both of the two professional indexes, Book Review Digest and Book Review Index"
			*"No coverage in independent secondary sources."
			*"I'm finding tons of places to BUY the book, but no news, no other books reference it, no reviews from WP:RS. Too new to be notable at this point. "
			Note what these arguments have in common: delete because there is a COMPLETE LACK of reviews.
			Arguing for '''Keep''':
			*Well, I couldn't find any arguments for "keep" in the current live discussions. (Face it, most of the books nominated for deletion are SOOOO deserving!) But ] is an example of a discussion from a year or two ago (which I credit to myself as a "rescue" because I provided links to significant reviews and thus demonstrated to people's satisfaction that the book was notable). Some of the "keep" comments after I added those links to reviews:
			*"Due to the two New York Times reviews; that's pretty significant coverage for a new book."
			*"Concur with the above, there are sources that document notability."
			Further arguments can be found in the ]. Here are some discussions which resulted in a "keep" decision: ], ], ]. In all cases the EXISTENCE OF SIGNIFICANT REVIEWS was given as reason enough to keep. In cases where the result was "Delete" (aside from the usual self-published nonentities), the reason was often LACK OF REVIEWS.
			Based on this, I believe that significant reviews on publication are sufficient to establish notability in the opinion of most editors, and furthermore that significant reviews on publication are exactly what ] has in mind when it calls for "multiple, non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the book itself." I think your interpretation is novel - not an approach I have ever seen before, or found in a search of past discussions. So if you want to apply it you should probably first look for consensus at ]. If you want to start a discussion there, feel free to copy our conversation over there as a start. In any case, thanks for a stimulating discussion! --] (]) 23:42, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
			::P.S. Another thing that occurs to me: if we adopted your rule that contemporary reviews don't count, it would completely preclude us from covering ANY new books, because we would be required to wait a few years to determine if the book turned out to be notable or not. --] (]) 23:52, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
			: Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful reply.
			: There are two issues, the main one being that it's very hard to distinguish ordinary "new release" reviews, from indiscriminate coverage. Obviously coverage could be either.
			: In some cases a book or product is launched and gets coverage due to promotional activity by the the publisher/manufacturer/creator or their PR agents. Publishers routinely try to get coverage for their books (as manufacturers do for their new products and product updates), and media routinely cover a wide range of new releases. In other cases a book indeed has significance - and perhaps eventually becomes a prizewinner, a top 10/30/100 bestseller, or has an impact on the wider world.
			: How do we tell which one a book is? I find myself coming back to basics. We don't do indiscriminate coverage, Misplaced Pages isn't a crystal ball, and if needed sources don't exist then it is fine to wait until they do.
			: We simply cannot tell in most cases whether a book at launch is significant or whether the interest is merely due to "new release" and transient (and nothing more). Even coverage in major papers is not really much evidence nor a predictor or a sign. The book (or any product) could fall flat and sell zero or few copies, or gain no traction, despite being listed in the New York Times "new publications" column. As with news, events, and people, brief but wide coverage doesn't always make them encyclopedically significant.
			: In other areas we handle this by waiting until better evidence exists, or else when it's expected to be notable, we might keep it - but without prejudice to relisting if time passes and it turns out it didn't achieve the notice that was initially anticipated.
			: All of these apply equally to books. Newspaper coverage of a new release by itself, merely signifies a book as one of the better new publications of the week/month. It doesn't always mean it will have encyclopedic significance. It doesn't say how it will be received or its impact or awards or other recognition in practice. It might be a brief spat of news reports and nothing else. So I think we can either wait until the outcome is evidenced to create the article, or create the article but without prejudice to deletion if the evidence doesn't materialize.
			: I take your point on past AFD closes, but wary of giving them too much weight. The question seems to stand as I asked it:
			:# Is "significant publication review coverage" enough by itself to make a book notable?
			:# If so can we move to say so explicitly at ]?
			:# If not, what else is needed and/or what weight is publication-related coverage to be given?
			: Thinking about these would probably help us (as a community) to agree on principles in this area, and clarify ] for future. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 00:24, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
			::: ## Is "significant publication review coverage" enough by itself to make a book notable? ## Yes, I think it is. And IMO ] already says that it is. But if you want to clarify that, the relevant talk page would be the appropriate place to try to do it. Please let me know if you do start a discussion there. --] (]) 01:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
			::: P.S. What is your response to my comment that according to this criterion you are proposing, recently published books could never (or hardly ever) be listed? Is that what you have in mind, or am I distorting your intention? --] (]) 01:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
			::: P.S. Again: the reason I included the past AFD closes is to show that up to now, reviews on publication have been accepted by consensus as evidence of notability. Misplaced Pages operates by consensus, so if you want to impose this additional requirement, you will have to find others who agree with you, or convince them to agree with you. --] (]) 01:28, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
			:::: I'd of course let you know if I did, but I would hope we'd both consider it worthwhile to do so as a discussion point. I suppose my response is, what would my reaction be to a product review, software review, new band review etc - it's much the same. Books are another commercial product these days. Many get "new product" -type coverage on launch (not least because they are promoted and have media columns focused on them), not nearly so many ever make any kind of significant notice of an encyclopedic nature. We already accept that is the case with events, news, people, and (generally) bands, albums, websites, and other commercial products that may get a spat of notice when launched. I wouldn't put books on a pedetal, I'd expect by default, similar logic. How do we know a book is encyclopedic? It had an impact, got lasting notice, won awards, sold many copies, etc, same as any other product of someone's commercial business operation. I don't see us arguing the rest of these can't be assessed except on launch reviews or their brief if intense flurry of mentions.
			:::: To answer your next question therefore, try this analogy. A new user posts an article on their band, which got 3 reviews in mainstream press on their launch. You can't find any other coverage and there is no chart info on any albums because the albums haven't charted yet. Is this sufficient evidence their band is notable? How certain would you be? Apply the same question to a new software package some company brought out, or a new social website that got mentioned in a few newspapers on launch (but no evidence of traction or future interest). If 6 months after launch the social website or product then got no further attention at all, would it be notable for getting launch attention only?
			:::: As you rightly say, we work on consensus. I honestly don't mind if ] is amended to say "review coverage alone is sufficient" or is sufficient in some cases (which?), or is usually insufficient. I want to clarify the issues as best we can between us though, and if necessary then get eyeballs and become clearer one way or another how it's viewed by the wider community. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 02:49, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
			::::: I don't pretend to know anything about the bands/musician criteria here; that's not my thing. But I note that the wording at ] is identical to the wording at ] and so I would assume that mainstream reviews of the band in major sources would qualify it, yes. The same identical wording also applies to ]. The fact is that new bands and new websites don't usually get written up in major reliable source publications without good reason. (If a brand new band that has never charted, gets major reviews, it is almost certainly because it IS notable for some reason.) <br> From your "answer-a-question-with-question" response, do I understand you to be confirming that, indeed, newly published books (and websites and musical groups) should not have Misplaced Pages articles, no matter how many substantial reviews they get? <br> We are talking in circles here. You are trying to apply this new criterion of yours to an increasing number of categories, all of which do seem to currently allow major reviews in mainstream reliable sources as evidence of notability. I accept that as the status quo and I don't think the criteria need to be amended, because I think the admissibility of reviews is clear enough as the guidelines stand.. --] (]) 04:13, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
			:::::: My reading of policies and guidelines is to be very wary of "on release" reviews of commercial offerings, which may not show any kind of enduring significance ("Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia"). Many users mistake or equate "significant coverage" for "encyclopedic topic", but verifiability, including verified or brief widespread coverage, isn't always going to be the same as encyclopedic significance or notability (as repeatedly noted in discussions). For the sake of future AFDs I'd like to be clearer on the extent to which we take publication or release coverage of commercial or media products as evidence of encyclopedic significance. I feel fairly strongly that we should obtain views and see what consensus is, and my personal view is that publication coverage should be taken very warily if it's the sole evidence. That said, I don't feel hugely strongly on the specific decision such a discussion should reach, my concern is more that we probably should discuss it. Whichever side consensus ends up on is fine preovided it's had careful thought and results in clarity of the area. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 09:09, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
			::::::: Be my guest. I think you and I understand each other's position pretty well by now and further discussion here would just be repetitious. Will you incorporate our discussion into your proposal to amend the guideline, or start fresh? BTW since you seem to feel the same criteria apply to music and to web pages (and maybe other areas), do you intend to start a discussion on those talk pages too? Because if ] is amended, all the other pages that have identical wording should be amended as well. --] (]) 14:58, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
			== Nomination of ] for deletion ==
			<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article ''']''' is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to ] or whether it should be ].
			The article will be discussed at ] until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.
			Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. ] (]) 18:49, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
			== Core collapse ==
			Please see the ]. Thank you. Regards, ] (]) 18:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
			You could try posting a request for a review at ]. There are several astronomers who frequent that discussion page.&mdash;] (]) 21:51, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
			== DDR4 SDRAM ==
			Hi, I reviewed your entry at ], but under new rules you still need to review another article before yours is eligible for DYK. Regards, <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 08:17, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
			== RFA Question ==
			Dammit, you just rearranged my brain. I hate when that happens.... --] (]) 02:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
			==DYK for DDR4 SDRAM==
			{{tmbox
			|style = notice
			|small =
			|image = ]
			|text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that next-generation ''']''' computer memory, developed since 2005, is the first of its family to discard ], and the first to include ] in its specification?'' You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>(], )</small> and add it to ] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the ].
			}} ] (]) 00:02, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
			== Notability amendment (September 2007) ==
			I'm looking for clarification about this discussion: ]. Its motive seems to be aimed at common sense in dealing with notability. For instance, a name and a phone number for several years strait in a phone book would not be sufficient grounds for notability, BLP1E articles can be merged to article about the event. The footnote in your proposed wording said "For example, adverts, announcements, minor news stories, and coverage with low levels of discrimination, are all examples of matters that may not be notable for the purposes of article creation, despite the existence of reliable sources" yet this clause is being used to justify the deletion of notable articles like ] which neither fails WP:NOT nor consists entirely of trivial coverage. Could you give a modern interpretation of what you proposed and also confirm whether iPad 2 could be presumed to meet those standards? ]? ] ] 02:57, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
			: I'll try. Bear in mind that the thread you are citing was aimed at a specific kind of mistake that people make; there are many nuanced reasons why articles may be kept, deleted or merged.
			: The problem we often have at notability/AFD is that people get hung up on verifiability at the cost of forgetting encyclopedic-ness. The GNG is our way to gauge "wider notice", and as such the evidence used to show notability had to be considered with this point in mind: ''does it actually show that the wider uninvolved world treated the topic as being significant, to the point that we should record it in a reference work''? So a repeated case that comes up is where there are reliable sources, but when you look at what they really show, they do not show what we're looking for, in an article and under ]. The footnote you point to is simply some examples of the kind of "evidence" we sometimes get at AFD that really doesnt show anything for our purposes.
			: That answers your specific question. Regarding the merging of ] - we have a few other key criteria for stand alone articles, of which an old one is, if 2 topics are perceived to better handled in one article than multiple articles by other editors then we don't need 2 articles for them. A good example is that Intel's Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge processors are both notable, both very widely discussed and reported, and there are fundamental differences between them (they aren't the same thing, one has higher speeds, different announcements, 3D chip design, etc). But they are covered in the same article at the moment because despite all of this, Ivy Bridge is basically a Sandy Bridge derivative and for reference purposes splitting the article would reduce its usefulness or ease of use, not increase it. That could change if more information came out. Another example is ] which was for a long time merged with ] and ] because it was not yet a "reality" in its own right. Once chips were actually created and more could be said, it was updated and a new article written. I am not an expert in the subject of iPads, but the decision to create separate articles, or separate sections in one article, is basically an editorial decision rather than a notability issue.
			: I hope this answers both the question you asked, and any you didn't! ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 03:27, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
			::Sorry for the delayed reply. Maybe expect some reform of that rule. I think that as long as the topic has become a standalone article it can stay live. Anything else would be grey area and up to the decision of editors. Merging typically causes navigation issues if the information isn't localized and would kill readership if Google didn't rank the iPad 2 among its top search results. ] ] 16:30, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
			== Could you please..... ==
			take a look at the situation of ], apparently the user place an unblock notice on her talk page and the user isn't blocked at all. Could you please handle the instance. ''<span style="font-family:times new roman;">]]</span>'' <sub><span style="color:blue;">(])</span></sub> 20:20, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
			: Already dealt with by another admin - thanks. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 20:29, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
			== RD5 ==
			Hi, FT2. I noticed that you played a major role in drafting the ] policy back in 2009, and you added what is now known as criterion RD5 ("Valid deletions under Deletion Policy, executed using RevisionDelete") to the draft. There is confusion about its intended use, and so an editor started ]. Since you were the one who first introduced the criterion, I'm sure any insight you could provide would be useful. Thanks in advance. ] (]) 01:36, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
			== ] ==
			Hi FT2. If you have the time and inclination, would you close and summarize ] and ]? My request at ] two weeks ago has not attracted any uninvolved admins to close those two RfCs. ] (]) 06:23, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
			: I tend not to be an RFC closer -- apologies. Hopefully someone else will? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 09:12, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
			::Okay, no worries. Do you know anyone who closes RfCs? No one at AN wants to close them. ] (]) 00:04, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
			== E-mail ==
			In response to your request, I could not figure out how to enable e-mail on my Misplaced Pages account, but if you have a question or comment relating to one of my previous edits, please feel free to leave a note on my UserTalk page. --] (]) 15:47, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
			:Per your suggestion, I have enabled e-mail on my Misplaced Pages account although I still prefer using Talk pages for communication purposes involving Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 20:06, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
			== Email ==
			{{you've got mail}} - ] | <small>] | ]</small> 03:39, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
			== Word limit and ''BLP and flagged revisions'' ==
			Hi FT2. This comment is made in my capacity as an arbitration clerk. I have your responses to other participants from the ''BLP and flagged revisions'' case request, because your statement was well in excess of the 500 word limit. As a reminder, the word limit is established in the introduction to ] thus: "All editors wishing to make statements should keep their statements and any responses to other statements to 500 words or fewer, citing supporting diffs where possible.") I will leave it to you to re-add the material that you want to keep, but please ensure that your statement does not again exceed the length restriction. Thank you. ]<small> <nowiki>]<nowiki>]</nowiki></small> 21:28, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
			== Article history template ==
			Hi FT2, I like your edits to ], but are you sure dark green is the best color for "Milestones in this article's history" and the current status? It looks a bit out of place to me. (if you think it's fine, no worries) ]&nbsp;<sup>]] ]]</sup> 23:06, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
			:Hi, I fully agree they need to stand out. I was thinking that blue would be good because it would match the links, but then I realized matching the links would be a bit confusing. Red has the same problem. Green is probably the best choice; it's visible and not confusing. The only potential problem could come from color-blind people.
			:I have no idea how to make that work. I only have a little knowledge of CSS and HTML, so I create templates by cutting-and-pasting sections from other templates. ;-)
			:Do we really need a "current status"? Doesn't it tell you the current status right above? (" ... has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria." / "... is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community." Or am I missing something? ]&nbsp;<sup>]] ]]</sup> 00:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
			:: Color blindness means it's hard to tell it's green. There's enough contrast there (easily) for most people to recognize the text, and see it as a non-black shade so it should still be ok I think. Not sure on the other - needs looking at. Thoughts? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 00:42, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
			:::Hmm, guess I should have looked at the WP article beforehand. I'm a history lover, not science. :-) As for the other, I don't think ArticleHistory is implemented before GA anyway, as those are WikiProject assessments, as opposed to community (GA, FA) assessments. ]&nbsp;<sup>]] ]]</sup> 01:25, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
			I've reverted your edits to the article history template per ]. Might I suggest using ] as a testing ground before making changes that fundamentally affect how the readers see the template. Making 20 changes to a live version of a heavily used template seems a bit off. Testing generally shouldn't be done on a live template which is transcluded almost 25,000 times. I wouldn't have thought that I needed to say that to such an incredibly experienced editor as yourself. Your opinions about what the template needs are obviously welcome over at the talkpage. Thanks, ] (]) 10:59, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
			: The template by its nature can't be checked using preview, because the preview doesn't show the section being edited. You have to edit it, save it, then look at how it renders. For complex edits the sandbox would be appropriate but these were not complex edits. The only changes had been slight format changes - spacing, font style, and minor wording - and all intermediate versions worked fully and correctly. As the shows, the edits took place within 40 minutes and then were completed. Your revert was about 22 hours after. No further changes were made in that time. However I've responded to the important points you do raise, on the template talk page. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 11:24, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
			::"The template by its nature can't be checked using preview": I am acutely aware of that, that's one of the reasons why there is a template sandbox, so you can preview your edits and test different styles, instead of filling up the edit history of the template with tests. You could then invite discussion about your version of the template and see whether there were any objections or improvements before it goes live and then you could have avoided any potential ill-feeling that might have arisen. Regards, ] (]) 11:54, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
			::: Tis true. I had figured that stepwise changes which didn't at any point "break" the template and whose sole adverse effect was to add to its history (not in itself harmful), completed in 40 minutes, would not be an issue to anyone. Sorry if it in fact was. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 12:00, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
			::::Yep, changing a template that is heavily used without discussion or any notification (and by testing it in main space) could cause some ill-feeling. I know you are only trying to improve the user's experience of the template but personally, I think the changes should have been discussed first. But hey, that is what BRD is for.
			::::I've left a reply to your explanation on the article history talkpage. Essentially, I think the colours are the main issue here along with the excess space. Anyway, hopefully all can be worked out quickly on the template talkpage and hopefully it can be more useful to readers at the end of it. Regards, ] (]) 12:54, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
			== ] ==
			Hello! You created this template. Shouldn't it say "This post ''is'' related to a specific problem, dispute, user, help request, or other narrow issue,
			and has been moved" (in other words, "is" should be added after "This post" to fix grammar)? Thanks in advance, ]] (]) 15:13, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
			: "Related" is past tense here - "This post related to X". ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 17:55, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
			:: Doesn't that mean "and" should be removed from the text? ]] (]) 18:22, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
			== User:Foo Bar Buzz Netz ==
			Hello. A new user by the name of ] has recently been reverting edits by ], with edit summaries claiming that it is a sockpuppet of retired user ]. I cannot find an SPI for this, and the user claims that you conducted one, and told him/her about the sockpuppet. I am told that you can confirm this. Is this true? ''<span style="background:#00BB00">]]]</span>'' 15:33, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
			:;Please check this out
			:Hi. Your name is used in vain at ]. I don't believe the story but I blocked for 24. Please make it indefinite if it is bogus as I suspect (and accept my apology if it isn't). ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:35, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
			:: Tentative response and a similar note on blocked user's talk page, with a request that the blocking admin (or any other admin) consider unbblocking while this is dealt with. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 21:53, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
			==Reliable sources==
			For medical articles we try to use more reliable source per ]. ] (] · ] · ]) 01:59, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
			: Thanks - and can you let me know which article this was? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 02:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
			== Oops ==
			Goofed. Very sorry.
			]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 02:26, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
			==Mentioned in despatches==
			Hi, you have been mentioned in passing . -- cheers, ] <sup>]</sup> 00:09, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
			: Thanks. I happened to mention drama reduction to ] this week.
			: If some user repeatedly brings up long closed past matters, and the target bothers to argue it, they just wasted time they could have been spending improving the project, by arguing about stuff nobody else cares about.
			: Thanks for the note. I appreciate it. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 01:36, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
			:: To be clear, if users do happen to engage in personal attacks, incivility and battleground activity in a gross or repeated manner, it should be passed to uninvolved users to handle even at the best of times. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 03:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
			Thanks for the response. -- cheers, ] <sup>]</sup> 22:16, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
			== Japanese swordsmithing article ==
	Hi FT2,		Hi FT2,
			I just have a quick question about the ] wikilink that you added to the ] article last week. The tamahagane article was merged with the swordsmithing article several months ago, so the wikilink doesn't really lead anywhere. Is there a need for the link? ] (]) 00:09, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
	I am writing in relation to the arbitration case, C68-FM-SV. I submitted evidence to that case concerning misuse of admin tools by user FeloniousMonk. My evidence was submitted on May 20, thus over three months ago. I am wondering why there has been no resolution of this case. I am not writing in order to accuse anybody, but I would like to say that this lengthy delay does indicate that there seems to be a problem with the functioning of the Arbitration Committee. Arbitration should be resolved more quickly than this, as you no doubt already know. No doubt as well these cases attract a lot of melodrama, but I would like to state that my evidence was submitted in good faith, and that such lengthy delays give the ''appearance'' that arbitrators are not respecting those who take the time to submit evidence in the hope of making possible a decision. In other words, there is the appearance that those who place their faith in the committee by submitting evidence are not having that good faith returned in the form of the obligation to make a timely decision. Why should editors continue to submit evidence in such cases if they cannot trust that their evidence will be considered and acted on within a reasonable timeframe? I would also like to add that, even though the case no doubt contains many complex elements, it does not seem to me that any of those complexities are so much greater than those found in other cases, as to be sufficient to explain the delay. Perhaps there are reasons for the delay of which I am unaware, whether to do with the nature of the case itself, or to do with the nature of the committee. I am therefore wondering: (a) if a decision is likely soon; (b) if the committee acknowledges the delay is itself a failing of the committee; (c) if the committee feels obliged to explain the true causes of the delay; and (d) if the committee will state whether it believes these problems need to be addressed, and if so, how. ] (]) 01:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
			: Not in that case. Thanks. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 00:19, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
			::Cool. Glad I was able to help. I was just curious, because sometimes I find there's an underlying wiki-reason for something like that. ] (]) 23:47, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
			==Links posted==
			Hi FT2, for what it's worth, I've added a few links to salient earlier discussions that you asked about at RfAr to the prior dispute resolution section. I'm sorry you never got a reply from anyone to your question; I'd always assumed those links were there. Cheers, --''']]]''' 22:23, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
			== Comment to Jeff Dean ==
	== ] ==
			Thank you for your comments. I intend to follow the correct path. I have asked Administrator ] to be my counseling administrator, a role he had suggested. I will ask him and others for help to avoid problems. I have started a new non-anonymous user page and will await unblocking before going further. I asked Tedder to "kill" Whoami_24 as soon as it is appropriate to do so. Thank you again for your excellent suggestions. ] (]) 17:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
	I don't mean to pry, but there wasn't much on this RfC when you posted. Was it meant for another self initiated RfC, or was this one the correct one? ''']'''] 02:03, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
			==Fair use rationale for File:Insemination central (Bodil).png==
	: Prying's fine, I got asked by someone if we were aware of the generic situations and such, so I commented.
			]
			Thanks for uploading or contributing to ''']'''. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under ] but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Misplaced Pages constitutes fair use. Please go to ] and edit it to include a ].
			If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "]" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on ]. If the file is already gone, you can still make a ] and ask for a chance to fix the problem.<!-- Template:You can request undeletion --> If you have any questions please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-no fair use rationale-notice --> ] (]) 13:37, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
	: ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 10:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
			== ] of ] ==
			]] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 18:40, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
	::Right. No problems then. It just caught me off guard to see you say ''the concerns'' at this specific RfC, before a concern was raised over there. I'll go back to minding my own business now. :) ''']'''] 11:02, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
			== Your ] nomination of ]==
	== New account on Misplaced Pages Review ==
			The article ] you nominated as a ] has been placed on hold ]. The article is close to meeting the ], but there are some minor changes or clarifications needed to be addressed. If these are fixed within seven days, the article will pass, otherwise it will fail. See ] for things which need to be addressed. <span style="font-family:serif;">] ]</span> 08:33, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
	Sorry to be checking, but worse things have happened. An account in the name of 'FT2' has been opened at Misplaced Pages Review. Could you possibly just confirm here that it is genuine? Thanks. ] (]) 13:15, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
			==New AfD of article you have worked on==
	:LOL, if not FT2, we're looking at an uncanny impersonation of his writing style.--] (]) 15:20, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
	:: I agree absolutely but I just like things to be verified. If it's genuine, he should have no problem confirming. ] (]) 15:22, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
			Please see ]. ] (]) 14:37, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
	::: Confirmed. This was my email comment to arbcom:
			==Talkpage alert==
	:::{| style="border:black solid 1px"
			Your name has been mentioned in a discussion on ]. Regards, ] | ] 15:29, 17 July 2011 (UTC).
	| I have signed up an account at WR. This is prompted by the general matters quoted below, and . The central part of my post there, reads as follows:
			== WT:REVDEL ==
			What happened about ]? It was about ready for an RFC, and I forgot about it, and now nothing's happened for 2 months. Did you forget too? :) ] <sup>]</sup> 10:53, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
	: "Since a sitting arbitrator setting up a WR account will be a topic of speculation, it's probably worth saying why, and why not, up front.
			: Figured it was broadly agreed and issues broadly resolved. Shall we pick it up then? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 20:24, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
			:: Yes, it seemed about ready, and I don't anticipate an RFC being a problem. And it's not straightforward enough to just implement. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
			::: Agree, it would need RFC. One question - should we set up 2 RFCs, as the RFC draft itself suggests - one for the general principle, and the other (separate) for specific REVDEL critieria which the community may or may not endorse, discuss, or make suggestions? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 11:03, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
			== Changes made to RTV guideline in October, 2010 ==
	::'''Main reasons why''', are that a lot of the worst disputes and controversies I see, seem to have their roots off site as much as on-site. In other words the action may start on-wiki, but the speculation, concerns, and accurate or inaccurate views and myth-making may take place off-wiki. My job (and probably a number of disputes I get asked to help with) gets easier on-site, if I'm aware of the myths earlier and if people who have concerns can ask those who might know. Obviously people can and should ask on-wiki or by email if there is a worry, but the fact is that many people won't, or don't see fact checking as important.
			FT2, in a discussion about some rather specific language that was recently in the RTV guideline it was that you inserted this language to the guideline in October, 2010. Since there is no apparent discussion about the changes on the talk page it isn't clear to me why you made them. Could you shed some light on the subject? See . Much appreciated.] (]) 04:06, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
	::Also because I'm still finding myself regularly involved on wikipedia, in matters where WR users take an interest, and whatever some at wikipedia may think, a number of editors I'm told post at WR are sane, sensible users. (Obviously some are ''not'' balanced reasonable editors, but the point is, there are probably all sorts, and assumption isn't helpful.) So I would like to avoid the hearsay that "all WR users are whatever", in favor of a view that like wikipedia editors, they're individuals, and to meet those individuals. Lastly, because realistically, I do the public face of many of the more high profile Arbcom cases, and I'm one of the Arbitrators more willing to be fairly open to questions on such cases where possible.
			: Sure, commented at ]. I'm tired (hard work at the moment) so it may be slightly fragmented, but hopefully helps. If you need more insight can you point me to some specific wording rather than "wording in general"? Thanks. Hope it helps! ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 19:44, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
			== Discussion regarding main user pages and U1 ==
	::What I'm '''not''' here for: to spend days justifying things to people who can't think calmly, clearly and productively without games; to argue people out of entire world views such as conspiracy-based thinking; to identify myself personally or discuss irrelevant matters; to get distracted from my core work on English wikipedia Arbcom; to give information and views I wouldn't give on Misplaced Pages itself, to fight battles and causes. If someone wants serious sensible dialog, then sure. But Arbitrators don't get elected by the community for cluelessness; there will be some here who just want to distract, have fun, play games, or the like - not interested. The users here who want genuine dialog, and act that way... those will find I'm open as much as my Misplaced Pages work and the best interests of the project allow me to be, and as they approach me, that's how they will find me.
			See ], where I've pointed out that the disconnect being discussed comes from your major overhaul of the page in March 2010 (and seems to have been an innocent mistake on your part). –]] 18:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
	:That said most of my wiki-work is at Misplaced Pages itself. I don't do politics so even other wiki sites such as meta aren't places I go, unless relevant to enwiki work, much less off-site like this. I just think there's a chance that this might be something I should do, or at least check out, rather than rely on hearsay."
			: As you nobly pointed out, there was discussion of the rewrite, I think we must all have missed it. There was probably something that made me think that was the current status quo, but could easily have been incorrect. Either way it's moot, I agree, fix it. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 19:53, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
			==Zoophiles==
			Well, they are mentally unwell. ] (]) 19:28, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
			== ] of ] ==
			]] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 03:17, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
			==Noisetier/Ceddjee again ==
			FYI: <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:19, 14 September 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			== User:Foo Bar Buzz Netz ==
	I do not plan to be controversial there or to say or do anything I wouldn't on-wiki. I don't plan to get distracted from stuff here. Rather, I plan to try and keep better abreast of the dramas before they hit Misplaced Pages and RFAR/ANI, and perhaps to forestall some of the worst idiocies one hears of. I plan to use it to look when other concerned admins tell me of a WR thread that in the past I'd have ignored, which I possibly should read.
			The {{user5|Foo Bar Buzz Netz}} claims that you are aware of the users past account names. Is this true and is there a reason why this user, whose only edits on this website involve attempting to expunge edits by one other person, is allowed to use this account in this way? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 16:04, 15 September 2011 (UTC)</small>
			: I'm aware of the entire background. There is some privacy matter involved, and ArbCom has suggested privately that some of the issues concerned are probably best passed to the ] to decide how normal editing policies should be balanced with privacy.
			: Without touching on privacy it's going to be a bit vague, but hopefully this gives the gist of it. The user operating ] has for a very long time tried to get action on a problematic issue related to ] and failure to disclose significant matters to fellow editors. The Functionaries team upheld his concern as valid. They reached consensus that policy was being breached and certain action was needed to fix this, but following claims related to privacy issues, the perceived breaches of policy continued yet this was not followed up with action, so the issue remained open.
			: Foo Bar Buzz Netz him/herself is not a complete innocent but in this matter his/her concerns were upheld and action was agreed to be needed. His/her previous and off-wiki conduct in the matter showed above average patience and willingness to follow ] despite a lack of productive response. He/she hasn't had the support expected, mainly since nobody seems to have been quite sure how to progress it. The issue is now quite old. Apparently patience has gradually run out and he/she has decided to try and take action to enforce the functionaries' decision alone, hence the removal of edits you ask about. As such, it's slightly hard to blame him/her in the circumstances.
			: That doesn't make Foo Bar Buzz Netz in the right, but it does suggest he isn't entirely in the wrong either; it implies strong mitigation and good faith. The issue that Foo Bar is concerned over should really be concluded one way or another, as it's gone on way too long. Resolving the underlying issue would probably resolve any current concerns over Foo Bar's actions, since he/she might be agreeable to dropping it all, if the underlying issue was finally and fairly resolved.
			: ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 18:08, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
			::Let me see if I understand this. A user is allowed to sock in order to get other socks blocked? Regardless of the rights or wrongs of Noisetter, is User:Foo Bar Buzz Netz allowed to sock as a response to that user's conduct? Is FBBN an editor in a. good standing, b. blocked or topic banned, or c. site banned? And is there a reason why this user is permitted to demand that SCRUTINY be followed with respect to Noisetter but is exempt from it himself? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 18:56, 15 September 2011 (UTC)</small>
			::: It's not FBBN who is "permitted to demand" any other user complies with ] policy - that was decided and stated by ] and the other user was formally told it. FBBN is not a complete innocent but he tried to do the right thing at the time: express a concern via appropriate routes. When the policy breach continued, he has taken action himself - apparently trying to enforce what was decided by Checkusers to the extent a non-admin is able, which at least permits some good faith.
			::: The other user is answerable for his conduct and actions, because it was agreed by Checkusers they were improper and remain improper, although now quite long ago. It could be that FBBN needs attention too for reasons you give - and anyone could raise such a concern if they chose and felt he was editing improperly. Relevant policies:
			::::* If you want to resume editing a topic area under a new account, you need to disclose past significant history in the topic area if any - including sanctions, blocks, warnings, etc. If not prepared to do so, don't edit that area, because other users have a right to know the track record of their co-editors in the topic. Also they may recognize you from your editing style and it'll then be completely public. (], ])
			::::* If you vandalize, or get blocked or banned due to edit warring or POV pushing, you may be required not to edit for a time, or to agree to conditions or restrictions, but there is usually a way back if genuinely willing to behave.
			::: These apply to both parties equally. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 21:49, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
			cAll right, thanks for that reply. But you did not answer the most important set of questions. The user (FBBN) claims that you know who he is. Is he a user in good standing, one that is topic banned or otherwise restricted, or one that is site banned? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 23:12, 15 September 2011 (UTC)</small>
			::::FT2 is not at all at ease on this issue and his description lacks some points to give a completely different picture.
			::::1. He puts the whole matter in front of the Arbcom who did not decide to follow him. The version he gives to you is the version that preceeded the case.
			::::2. He disclosed information about contributors to FBBZ, as FBBZ proved in putting a screen capture of his email on the internet...
			::::3. FBBZ is a sock of {{u|HupHollandHup}} ie {{u|NoCal100}}, which makes the "not completely innocent" sounds funny.
			::::] (]) 23:36, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
			::::: '''@nableezy''' - I was less concerned about FBBN, mainly because as you say he's only used the account for one reason, to address a lapse elsewhere. A previous account of FBBN does have active sanctions. Now that the issue has is "known" on-wiki and has been dealt with, he should quickly keep his word to let FBBN "fade into oblivion" (per a redacted edit) and make sure that any future editing does not put himself in breach of policy. If his concern happens again and he cannot edit, there are thousands of other users who will raise the matter at SPI, ANI or the Functionaries list if it's a problem.
			::::: My advice really is that both should look carefully at their account(s) and actions, and comply with existing policies on editing conduct. That includes "sitting out" or properly appealing any active blocks or sanctions (both have been sanctioned for behavior), not creating new accounts or switching to IP editing without disclosure. It means changing the behaviors that led to any blocks or sanctions in the past. It usually means ceasing to edit contentious areas if unwilling to disclose a past account active in that area. But if either were to breach policies in future then the other also doing something wrong wouldn't be a reason not to act on it. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:55, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
			:::::'''@81.247.129.47''' - Arbcom's comment was as I stated. They felt it was better handled by the Functionaries list and the privacy issue didn't need Arbcom review. That question was the reason for the request. Their response was as I described above. Your other point is about a confirmation of checkuser finding on a sock check backed with behavioral evidence and diffs. You can find literally hundreds of cases in the archives where Checkusers routinely examine behavioral and CU evidence and confirm openly that the stated accounts are to a high certainty operated by the same individual. Nothing unusual there at all. Whether a concern was brought to Checkuser attention on-wiki or by email, or any other way at all (see ]) doesn't affect this. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:55, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
			Im sorry, but no. If FBBN is in fact NoCal100, an account that has amassed an impressive number of sockpuppets whose purpose has been to harass other users (including, among others, myself), a multiple times banned editor, who himself has repeatedly violated RTV and SCRUTINY, and you know this(!?!?) that is a much bigger problem than a user whose only active block is one imposed at their own request (Ceedjee remains unblocked here, Noisieter is blocked at their own request) "evading" said self-requested block as an IP. Any edit by NoCal on Misplaced Pages is violating multiple policies, and an ArbCom imposed topic ban (which was imposed on two of his accounts in one ArbCom case). Do you know what prior accounts FBBN has used or not? He has said that you are aware of his identity. Is this true? If so, is it NoCal100? I have asked several times now, do you know what the prior accounts of FBBN are? And is he a banned user? And do you know if he has any other active accounts? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 01:26, 16 September 2011 (UTC)</small>
			:Do you intend to answer these questions? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 15:01, 16 September 2011 (UTC)</small>
			:: Of course, but later on today. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 15:16, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
			::: This was a user I have heard from in just one context - concern over another user. Talk was limited to that one issue. His statement that I "know" his identity should be read as meaning, I know at least one of his prior "proper" user accounts before FBBN, which is correct because he originally emailed me using wiki-mail which reveals the senders username. That account was not NoCal though. (For completeness - he also had names in email headers but they could be meaningful or pseudonyms, and they aren't public anyway.) FBBN is a more recent account and did not initially identify himself as the same user.
			::: The core work on this case and the formal emails to the other user took place long before the creation of the FBBN account and off-wiki, when points like these weren't a visible or central issue. Noisetier claimed early on that if there was a complaint it came from a "notorious" user "NoCal" and I did not ignore this allegation. The very next day I replied to Noisetier:
			::: ''"If you feel another editor is a reincarnation of a past user, or is evading a block, ban or restriction using a new account, then I would look at evidence of this equally, as well. If you think you have such a concern and want advice on what evidence is helpful or how to lay it out, ask."'' (Quoting my own email is fine!)
			::: Other Checkusers, informed and more familiar with ], also didn't comment about any basis of concern. The concerns ''about'' Noisetier were well evidenced from diffs, valid, and endorsed by multiple Checkusers. Even if the user raising them had been blocked there isn't any rule stopping blocked users from asking Checkusers or the Functionaries list to review evidence of a ] breach. So NoCal was probably a bit of a distraction in the context.
			::: I've tried to avoid getting too deep into this mess other than getting clarity on the SCRUTINY issue, since I am not focused on I-P disputes generally. If FBBN is an on-wiki issue then you already have my thoughts on handling it, as do the Checkuser team (by email). ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 01:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
			==MfD nomination of ]==
			], a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for ]. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at ] and please be sure to ] with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). You are free to edit the content of ] during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you.<!-- Template:MFDWarning --> '''] ]''' '']'' 16:31, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
			==Biting?==
			*Me? Hey... to be frank, the newbie was looking at ] and SPAMMING the many newly registered accounts without bothering to look first into their edits before deciding which welcome template to use. I noted the one who was making a on the page of ] and the newbie welcomed him nonetheless. Being a member of welcome committee, I think I was already going quite easy on the newbie. Thoughts? --<small>] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">]</span></sup></small> 13:16, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
			:: ] got there too and , only stronger. AGF aims to figure where someone's at and give them the benefit of the doubt if reasonable. It's uncommon but not unreasonable that this might be a new user who saw welcome templates and thought "I can be helpful that way". It doesn't hurt anyone to initially assume that. A nice first step could be to acknowledge what they are trying to do and explain why it's a problem, then encourage them to gain more experience so they aren't put off. If they still continue then a more direct followup could happen saying that it could cause problems and asking them to stop until they have more experience.
			:: The concern was that with the best of intentions, your post dived in a bit hard - "why are you SPAMMING? Do you have hidden agendas we should know of? Artificially inflating your edit count by spamming without explicit permission is not okay". That assumes the user's here to spam, and virtually implies a negative motive, before giving them a chance or asking nicely. It sounds (even if it's not what you meant at all) that nobody except official approved welcomers is allowed to be friendly and welcome people. Do it gently, then watch and see if they respond or if a stronger word is needed. :) ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:22, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
			:::*Granted, I'm a cynic with the newbies (not all but some!) and I should have been more tactful with newbies but it is also exactly these newbies we are having our daily problems with on the pages of Philippine-related articles (], ], ], etc etc). Vandalism, hoaxes, inflating figures, you name it! And of all the people the newbie had to welcome, he did so for a ]~! You'd noticed that's where my attention turned to him but not before that because he was never on my radar, to begin with. Why not AGF my effort? Am I not here to help? You guys all talk about don't bite the newbies, what about biting the oldies?? FWIW, Fluff should have been reprimanded or defrock for piling on and biting me! Anyway, I'm not the least surprised at how this had turned out, Admins stepping on another editor to climb even higher, correct me if I'm wrong in my perception now, that's how you guys are making the oldies feel these days. Yes, I'm not the only one who feels that way! --<small>] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">]</span></sup></small> 15:39, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
			::::: Relax, seriously. This isn't that sort of thing. Yes he greeted an SPA. I doubt he checked what people edited, he's not experienced enough to think of that, so he greeted a bunch of people including someone who should have got a warning. Bad motivation? Probably not, probably best of intentions for all that one can tell. As posted on that page, you're not being bitten, and he's not being given a flower of complete perfection. He's had it explained what the issue is that you spotted, in a way that acknowledges he probably meant well and doesn't assume or deter him, and you got a couple of comments that 2 others felt your wording was a bit harsh, so that you can word such posts gentler another time and still have the desired effect without deterring a newcomer if they mean well. If you feel you want to see that as "admins v oldies" or "you guys" or "doing it to climb higher" then please think again, anyone can comment on anyone, and often do. In the gentlest way possible, understand all this says is a couple of people figured you can get the effect you want without being harsh. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 15:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
			::::::* See the continued harassment on my talk page? When I saw your response on the newbie's talk page, I did read between the lines and knew better than to reply after that but having someone piled on right after it was uncalled for! Thus my retort to you above, "biting of newbie is not allowed but biting of oldie is allowed?" Come on, how ambiguous can the meaning of AGF be on the part of Admin when some don't adhere to the spirit, and instead focusing on it in name? Granted, you've pointed out my mistake and that I should have been tactful, I accept that. On the other hand, having someone pile on right after that is inviting things to go on in a nasty circle, see ]. I don't give a fuck about the whole newbie blunder now but think about the long term consequences of other Admins constant blabbering of oldies must AGF this, AGF that. Isn't that an invite to more ill-feelings and bad karma? Think about it, man. Seriously I mean, you did great but its the others whom I've lost respect for, totally. --<small>] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">]</span></sup></small> 16:24, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
			== Skype ==
			Hey there. I'd like to discuss the details of your proposal with you, figure a voice chat is probably the best way. Let me know when you're availiable for a Skype chat. I've got a few ideas as well that perhaps we could form some sort of working proposal to go with and present to the community. Talk soon. <span style="font-family:Forte;">] ]</span> 02:53, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
			== The inadequecies and future of dispute resolution ==
			Hullo FT2, I read with interest your comments ] on dispute resolution, and remembered an engaging IRC discussion on the topic earlier in the year. I wonder if you would be at all interested in writing a ] on the matter to provoke further reflection and debate? Regards, ] 06:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
			: Sure, it's a long term thorn in the project's side, and really should have moved on and improved after this many years. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 09:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
			== Ceejee/Alithien/Balagen yet again? ==
			Hi, I recently read ], and I'm pretty certain this blocked user (Ceejee/Alithien/Balagen) is back again, this time as ]. Same Belgium based ISP, same old POV pushing... ] (]) 13:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
			: Could very well be, but I'm not an I-P topic specialist and so I can't give a firm view. I suggest posting the evidence at ] and ask for views. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 13:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
			:: See ] (]) 19:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
			FT2- You've previously noted that Noistier must either disclose his previous IDs, leave the topic area, or be blocked. He's chosen to be blocked, but continued to edit around the lock by editing as an IP. Recently his block was lifted. Your intervention is now needed. ] (]) 19:47, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
			== "the account is relatively benign" ==
			So it's okay for banned and blocked editors to sock so long as they're "relatively benign"? —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 22:52, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
			: If you read the pages in full, the point I make is that his conduct is being used as a distraction from Noisetier's, and that's not okay. As I have said on this talk page, '''and''' in emails from 2010 and 2011, '''and''' in Noisetier's SPI case archive, if there is a concern over FBBN then anyone may act on it, but that's separate. It has no relevance to the question of disclosure or sock policy breach by Noisetier - and the Noisetier issue is being kept "clean" - the Noisetier SPI page is about Noisetier, not about other editors and should stay that way. To repeat to you what I have said before (and others have too) - if you feel action is needed about FBBN then we have policies and norms to do so, you don't need my say-so to do anything. My formal involvement in the case has been in considering how to address the disclosure issue, presenting evidence of the disclosure issue, and seeking consensus on that point. I have not chosen to block either party despite both acting against our policies, preferring to deal with that aspect only and leave any blocks for others. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:03, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
			::I understand. Thank you. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 23:15, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
			And in related news, your name is mentioned ]. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 12:38, 12 October 2011 (UTC)</small>
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	:: ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 01:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
			== It appears that ] with a sock/meatpuppet is back at NLP page ==
	:::Just curious... why did you have to justify it to the Arbcom? Did Brad have to? I mean, as a body they have no authority over this sort of thing as it relates to your position on the AC itself, correct? <font color="0D670D" face="Georgia, Helvetica">]</font> (<font color="#156917">]</font>)(<font color="#156917">]</font>) 01:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
			: I've raised this at ANI ] (]) 16:59, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
			:: I've removed it - it isn't appropriate content given its links. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 17:02, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
			::: You (or another admin) probably needs to go through the anon's other edits - such as http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Encyclotadd&diff=prev&oldid=458320685 - because the same links are spammed around ] (]) 17:06, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
			:::: I see you've asked at ANI - many eyeballs make light work and I'm working here at the moment. Can the rest be left for others, as there may be quite a few of them? if not I'll try but it could be a while.
			:::: To ] - the removal is because we don't do "outings" or post this kind of info here - ] means when others start a battle (or continue it after 6-7 years as Headley has), even so we try not to "battle" back but to minimize disruption. So some kinds of external links, claims etc cannot be left standing on Misplaced Pages's pages, even though obviously they would be interesting to read. I wanted to explain that in case you weren't sure what to make of their removal. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 17:17, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
			Yes, I posted the same links on many of the other users' talk pages... because I don't want to see them go through the same misery that HeadleyDown put the previous editors through in years previous. So sue me! ] (]) 17:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
			: No, I don't think that's necessary. It's the classical problem of having to live up to a higher standard, against those who don't. The information matters, but as a wiki we need to generally keep what have become known as "attack links" off it - and thats so even if the person they address were indeed a proven hard-core abuser. It does make fighting abuse tough, but not impossible. For example, a person defamed by HeadleyDown would have a legitimate right to take legal action, but we as a community very likely would not do so. They have a right legally to post his personal information on a blog, but we as a community have taken a view it should not appear on our public wiki. The Foundation has a right to seek a court order to prevent a heavy abuser accessing the site for which that information may help, but individual wiki editors don't have that right.
			: None the less if the information is valid, those defamed may wish to privately know who their defamer is - it's a well established legal right to the point that one can readily get a court order to name the person behind a genuinely defamatory or harassing IP (it's happened for blogs, twitter etc already). The community (or trusted users such as Checkusers and Arbitrators) may wish to know it if it will help them identify other socks and directly reduce editing abuse. But we don't want any part of any ensuing off-site battle, and we would wish to avoid Misplaced Pages being used to fuel any part of it.
			: That said, the good faith and intention is appreciated. Posting links to his alleged personal info isn't likely to help directly in any way I can see though, and those links have to be removed (unless actually serving a project purpose and within project approaches which doesn't seem to be the case here). It's tough to act to a higher standard, especially against someone with this kind of track record, but hopefully this explains why. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 18:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
			::That's fair enough, I suppose. I just saw a repeat of the same old soap opera developing -- the same arguments returning-- different details, but the same form ... the POV editors dragging in dubious citations and then crying Assume Good Faith, etc, while not showing assumptions of good faith to anyone else. I look at the talk pages for other pages, and I don't see these kinds of arguments, not even on controversial subjmects such as Joseph McCarthy! ] (]) 18:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
			::: Thanks. I have checked the evidence out myself a bit. If you want to email to discuss any of this, do go ahead. But our policy is that issues of "user X = person Y" should never be treated as confirmed on the public wiki. You'll find this in ], cases where we know perfectly well who users X and Y are but all we say is "Users X and Y are individuals with a personal interest in the topic". The reason being, the rest just doesn't matter for public wiki editing purposes. At the end of the day the point is, even if the knowledge was perfect and confirmed, how would knowing HeadleyDown is person X rather than persons Y or Z help us prevent editing abuse of the wiki? At that point - and only at that point and for that purpose - might it be relevant for a few trusted users to have the formal evidence, off-site. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 18:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
			:::::Well, in this case, knowing an identity is useful. . Basically, we now have the smoking gun as to WHO HeadleyDown actually is. Knowing WHO he is could make future sockpuppet confirmations go faster -- as we have now have information about the puppetmaster (whose various names sometimes reflect part of his life experience ).
			::::: . ] (]) 18:51, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
			:::::: I was serious, we really as a community try to avoid this kind of post on-wiki. If you want to discuss the evidence, by all means create a temporary Misplaced Pages account with email enabled - my email link is in my signature. But this kind of stuff should not go on-wiki, even if it might pertain to an alleged identification of a notorious abuser, dishonest person, and defamer. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 19:02, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
			== SP thoughts ==
			Hullo there, any more ] about what we discussed? Regards, ] 21:46, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
			Ping. ] 08:47, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
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			Any ] for improving this automated tool are welcome. Thanks, ] (]) 13:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
			== NOT and stuff ==
			Hi FT2, I just wanted to let you know, it's not that I disagree with you: I don't disagree with what you are saying - I disagree with the change. If we were to look at things ], wp:censor wouldn't be needed ''at all''. Everything in it is covered by properly using other policies: "is it relevant, cited to reliable sources, included in a fashion that does not portray a bias or push a POV?" Alas, that's not how people work, and the changes to wp:censor were made in response to that. IIRC, they were done (roughly a year and a half ago, give or take) in response to the belief that clarification was needed because of the Muhammad images and Scientology "issues" that arose. Inotherwords, done with a reason because even though policy already covered such, it wasn't enough. And currently, it still doesn't seem to be. We've got editors trying to censor articles on abortion, images from ], articles on Islam and Muhammad, articles on Christianity (and various sects thereof) due to religious beliefs ''even with'' such spelled out in wp:censor. Do we really need to have laws telling people that murder is wrong? Perhaps not in a world of fully logical or fully compassionate people. This case is somewhat similar as beliefs are a strong thing. And many people do not equate their beliefs with "organization" or any other such wording. As it is, there is a multi-front campaign going on (which you may have noticed already) to change wp:censor to allow censoring of content that is religiously objectional.
			If anything, due to the nature of humans as we are, I'd suggest making sure it covers as many major permutations as possible. And currently, the two biggest are religion (personal religious beliefs as well as the beliefs of a religious organization) and politics/nationalism. I'd propose policy should generally be written to spell out things for those who need it clearly defined for them (hence the existence of wp:censor at all) - as opposed to thinking that people will look at all the policies and guidelines detached from emotion and bias. Best, Rob <small>] </small>&#124;<small><small> <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small></small> 21:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
			: I see what you're saying but I disagree. WP:CENSOR says, we don't omit, avoid or remove content because it's offensive or undesirable to any external party or editor. We omit, avoid or remove content ''only if it's judged by editor consensus to improve the quality of our reference information by doing so''. This might be by adding a positive (eg it adds good knowledge, it's a better image), or by removing a negative (eg it was poorly chosen or tended to breach an editorial policy, so that removing it improves our reference material or policy compliance). It might be by explicit consensus (a discussion) or implicit consensus (BRD and nobody reverts or objects).
			: What you're citing is closer to NPOV/NOR, where we are removing material not because it meets our editorial criteria but we don't like it, but because it isn't of encyclopedic quality in the first place so it breaches 5P ("Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia").
			: Of course they do all overlap, eg one can cast NPOV/WEIGHT as a kind of censorship policy ("when do we censor fringe views") or WP:V ("when do we censor less well reported information") if one wanted. So they do blur and overlap, but overall WP:CENSOR can be very direct and simple: We remove material because it can be improved, doesn't meet our policies, or is legally problematic, not because it breaks some external rules or some kinds of people want us not to show it.
			: I'm in favor of WP:CENSOR explaining the key point - we don't censor because you don't like it or you believe it should be secret. We do remove material for other reasons though and here's an outline of when you may expect to see material removed.
			: If you do want to include "religions" then try this: - "Misplaced Pages is not a member of any organization, religion, or political group, so rules by other bodies which are binding on their members carry '''no weight''' in any discussion within Misplaced Pages".
			: ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 01:21, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
			::Hmmm, I see what you are saying. I am kinda equating "my POV (ie: beliefs, religious, political, offense level) is this" combined with relevance, and I can see how it's not a full fit, now that you mention it. On the whole objectional material stuff, I've got no idea how to ever truly "win" that (ie: figure out how to come up with something that works for everyone). People's opinions, even without religion or politics in play, are too divergent. It's ironic in a way that one of the biggest strengths of Misplaced Pages is the diversity that causes that - and that it's also what causes some of the greatest conflicts. ;-)
			::As for the change above, I think that's virtually perfect. Though I'd suggest "in any ''article or'' discussion within" (itals only to indicate added text) - and thanks for the response. Best, Rob <small>] </small>&#124;<small><small> <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small></small> 14:00, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
			== Request for feedback on ] ==
			Hello FT2, thanks for a great feedback you gave me on User:Timeport101/Verax NMS. I've implmented your suggestions and found additional references. I'd like to ask you about your opinion on this. I'm not sure if I cited refrences 100% correct (research papers and workshop materials).--] (]) 13:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
			== YGM ==
			{{YGM}} -- ]] ] 16:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
			== Image use ==
			Hi FT2. If you think there is a problem with the way Misplaced Pages uses controversial images, would you mind summarising concisely what you think that problem is for me ]? --
			==Deletion review for ]==
			An editor has asked for a ] of ]. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. <!-- This originally was from the template {{subst:DRVNote|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~ --> ] (]) 01:58, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
			== Question for you. ==
			Found at . Thanks! ] (]) 18:05, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
			== Why Misplaced Pages Needs Marketers ==
			Hi FT2. Thanks for the link on my blog post on how COI contributors can improve Misplaced Pages. After your post I spent hours culling through the history of this policy discussion and resolved that a more informal community-approved certification-based approach had not been discussed and seems like it could address the significant issues of a formal policy that would encourage/endorse paid writing more broadly than is appropriate.
			I to Jimmy Wales on his Talk page, since he was the primary advocate against paid writing policies in 2009, for - I think - very good reasons after reviewing the detailed discussions. A certification model offers a more compelling alternative I think than policy. Instead of banning or encouraging anything, it just sets up a model where paid-for contributors are still more motivated to support Misplaced Pages's goals than that of their clients - in a way neutralizing their COI all-together.
			If you don't hear from me, you'll know that Jimmy executed his threat to ban a user he finds out is paid. Still - if you feel like continuing the discussion, I've started it on Jimmy's .
			] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 21:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			== please discuss the Higgs at the Higgs talk page ==
			See ]. Other people than you and i may wish to discuss this. ] (]) 12:16, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
			== RevDel RfC? ==
			Hey, FT2. I noticed that despite all of our discussions at ] last spring, no changes ever occurred as far as the RD5 issue goes. Perhaps this is because, of the principals in the discussion, I am no longer around much and Rd232 rode off into the sunset. Regardless, I think we should an open a RfC on this issue once and for all. Shall we get the ball rolling? ] (]) 23:05, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
			: Yes.
			: One thing, because the discussion's stale let's briefly both look at the past discussion to re-check that we're both still comfortable with presentation for RFC and the question to ask (as I remember it was all, or almost all, done). Re-check it's clearly described so participants will not misunderstand the actual aim of the RFC. Then do it. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:34, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
			== ] ==
			I don't suppose you could be a little more specific and link a page or transcript or something? --] ] 01:22 16 December 2011 (GMT)
			: I was listening to ] live at <b>http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/mark_12152011.html</b>. As a public hearing it'll be reliably sourceable to the official transcripts of that hearing when published, and can be verified in the meantime by anyone who can locate and listen to the video or audio of the hearing. I think I have a specific time to within a few minutes: 17:47 EST (22:47 UTC), because my browser history shows that as the time I googled "silk road" to find out more.
			: I started ] 25 minutes later at 18:13 EST (23:13 UTC) before realizing I'd clicked the dab page for "Silk way" not "Silk road" and an article existed, at which point I added the cite to the article.
			: So I'm pretty sure it's easily verifiable to official sources. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 02:35, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
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			==Article Feedback Tool - notes and office hours==
			Hey guys! Another month, another newsletter.
			First off - the first bits of AFT5 are now deployed. As of early last week, the various different designs are deployed on 0.1 percent of articles, for a certain "bucket" of randomly-assigned readers. With the data flooding in from these, we were able to generate a big pool of comments for editors to categorise as "useful" or "not useful". This information will be used to work out which form is the "best" form, producing the most useful feedback and the least junk. Hopefully we'll have the data for you by the end of the week; I can't thank the editors who volunteered to hand-code enough; we wouldn't be where we are now without you.
			All this useful information means we can move on to finalising the tool, and so we're holding an extra-important ] session on Friday, 6th January at 19:00 UTC in #wikimedia-office. If you can't make it, drop me a note and I'll be happy to provide logs so you can see what went on - if you can make it, but will turn up late, bear in mind that I'll be hanging around until 23:00 UTC to deal with latecomers :).
			Things we'll be discussing include:
			*The design of the feedback page, which will display all the feedback gathered through whichever form comes out on top.
			*An expansion of the pool of articles which have AFT5 displayed, from 0.1 percent to 0.3 (which is what we were going to do initially anyway)
			*An upcoming Request for Comment that will cover (amongst other things) who can access various features in the tool, such as the "hide" button.
			If you can't make it to the session, all this stuff will be displayed on the talkpage soon after, so no worries ;). Hope to see you all there! Thanks, ] (]) 04:50, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
			== May I ask for your assistance? ==
			Hi,
			Are you still interested in the idea of at least some non-admins being able to view deleted pages? I understand that the proposal was shot down previously by foundation counsel; however I believe I have at least two possible answers to their concerns.
			One possibility is to make this prospective (apparently the antonynm of retrospective although I'm not so sure) - that is to say that only edits deleted after its implementation can be viewed. For revisions such as libelous edits or copyright violations and so on, there can be a hard delete, lying some way between this soft delete and oversight, which will function just like a present deletion. Admins could also have the power to toggle a deletion from hard to soft (or to undelete) - so selected deletions made before this feature is implemented could be made soft.
			The second possibility is to introduce a procedure somewhat like RFA where users are given permission to view deleted edits by the community. As admin privileges are currently granted not just based on trust in general, but also on trust that the tools will be used appropriately, there is a much greater pool of users who would be eligible to be given this permission.
			And of course, it is perfectly possible to use both of these systems at once.
			I have cross posted this to a few users who were active in the discussion in 2008 - I don't feel this is a violation of CANVASS because I have not made the proposal myself - the reality is I need an experienced Misplaced Pages with some "street cred" to make it. I already attempted to steer a discussion of a similar proposal this way, but sadly that discussion is irretrievable (see ] - or even better, don't!). Because I have posted this to a few users, I would be greatful if you would reply at ] and perhaps we can get a discussion going!
			Thank you!
			<span style="background-color:silver;color:black;">] ]</span> 22:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
			'''P.S.''' - silly me, I forgot to link to the original discussion in 2008. Here it is: ]
			: It's had some discussion in the background, and I know a couple of people at WMF are considering what's possible but it may take some time, I'm not altogether clear why there's an issue myself but I do know it's being revisited at some point and I hope to get a better idea then. Until that happens, no point really asking for a community review, best be patient. I'll try to get some info on it but it could take time. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:24, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
			::Thanks for the reply, look forward to hearing what comes next! <span style="background-color:silver;color:black;">] ]</span> 23:32, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
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			== ] ==
			Hello. I have undone one of your edits. Liability to custody for life depends on age at the time of conviction as well as at the time of the murder. Suppose, for example, that a person is aged 19 when he commits a murder. If he is aged 20 on the date on which he is convicted he will be sentenced to custody for life, as you have written. But if he is aged 22 on the date on which he is convicted, he will not be sentenced to custody for life, as you have it, but will instead be sentenced to imprisonment for life. The reason for the "three bullets" that were employed in the article is that I could not find a way to accurately state this in a single sentence. ] (]) 04:05, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
			:The sources do not say that these sentences are "legal terms". I have never heard that expression used in this context. In light of ], I do not think it is a good idea to use it in that article.
			:The sources are also phrased as commands. The word "used" seems to me to suggest that these commands are, in actuality, always followed. The sources are not capable of supporting that. Conversely, that word does not seem to me to clearly indicate that there is a command in the first place. And it is the command, and not the practice, that the article is concerned with. I used the word "must" because there is a case that says that "'shall' means 'must' not 'may'". Archbold and Halsbury also use it.
			:I am not convinced that custody for life and imprisonment for life are available only if it "appears to the court" that the offender was aged 18 or over at the time of the murder. Just looking at the face words of the Act, I think that they might be available in a case where the court has no idea how old the convicted person was at the time of the murder, and only knows that he is now under or over 21. I think that we would be wanting to cite a case on that point before saying something like that.
			:I think that "perpetrator" is not usually used in England and Wales and that "offender" is more likely. I might run an advanced search on Legislation.gov.uk to check this.
			:I don't think that the new style proposed is an improvement in any way at all. In fact, I don't see any need to change the style at all. I am tempted, apart from inaccuracies, to revert the changes to the passages in question with the rationale "purely stylistic change that adds nothing". ] (]) 06:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
			===Indictments===
			The Indictment Rules 1971, according to Archbold, have the words "statement of offence" and "particulars of offence" as headings, and not the way you have them, and there is no colon. (Both headings and the actual statement of offence are also supposed to be centered but I do not know how to do that.) ] (]) 06:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
			: Thanks for the explanation. Not sure I agree though, so I'm copying this to the talk page (so others can comment too) and will comment there shortly. Thanks! ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 06:41, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
			==Article Feedback Tool - things to do==
			Hey guys! A couple of highly important things to do over the next few weeks:
			*We've opened a ''']''' on several of the most important aspects of the tool, including who should be able to hide inappropriate comments. It will remain open until 20 January; I encourage everyone with an interest to take part :).
			*A second round of ] will take place in a few weeks, so we can properly evaluate which design works the best and keeps all the junk out :P. All volunteers are welcome and desired; there may be foundation swag in it for you!
			Regards, ] (]) 18:49, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
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			== Your input is needed on the ] ==
			Hi FT2,
			You are receiving this message either because you expressed an opinion about the proposed ] before ] and ] were adequately differentiated, or because you expressed general support without specifying a preference. Please ensure that your voice is heard by clarifying your position accordingly.
			Thank you.
			<small> Message delivered as per request on ]. -- ]]] 16:30, 14 January 2012 (UTC) </small>
			== Question on Jensen (1969) ==
			Hi. I am the user who created ]. I saw your comments on the Keep decision in the recent AFD. My question: Do I need to worry about this article being deleted soon? My plan was to wait for the AFD to finish and then, assuming it was a Keep, to add more material. (I agree that the article lacks context and needs to be expanded. In fact, I like to think that aprock will like my additions.) But I hesitated to do that before because a) I wasn't sure if making lots of changes was appropriate behavior during an AFD and b) I did not want to devote a lot of time if the article was going to be deleted anyway. Would adding more material now be considered rude since aprock (and maybe others?) seem so unhappy with the AFD result? ] (]) 20:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
			: Thanks for checking. In simple terms, an article can be improved during AFD and this is encouraged, especially if the problem that brought it to AFD is one that could be fixed.
			: (For example if it's awfully written and can be cleaned up, or lacks evidence of notability or sources and those can be added, or if it's not clear that it is significant in its own right independent of other pages and this can be shown from sources.)
			: There's no obligation to do so, and your reasons for not doing so seem pretty sensible. I would say the opposite of what you suggest is more likely. Right now some users consider it doesn't merit its own article, there isn't much to say about it independently, or it would only lead to POV and biased writing if someone did add material. Adding material '''to a high standard''' is likely to reassure and help, not upset and definitely not be seen as "rude". Worth checking, the courtesy is good.
			: Also if an article decision were referred to ] then it will be considered whether the close was appropriate. If so, it's best not to make huge changes at that point (although no need to undo any or stop completely) - let people consider it in a relatively stable state.
			: You do need to be careful to avoid POV here, which may mean doing quite a bit of research in Google, Google Scholar, Google Books etc (or any resources you have). Think what you'd expect to find on an article on a paper, or look at other articles on papers. For example, what was its background context, how did it come about, what (if any) its publication history if unusual, what responses (immediate or longer term), and do we have sources that sum up its legacy in a balanced manner. Remember this article is to educate on the papers, not really the external dispute. So it can mention other things, have sections on them, link to them, note them, but primarily its focus should be "tell me about the papers and their context and consequences".
			: I'd suggest go step at a time, and be willing to wait for reactions. If you judge it poorly, you'll get them, that's not necessarily a problem but this topic may need extra care in writing and research to ensure it isn't just seen as "I told you so" and "just POV on the Race and IQ dispute".
			: I'm sure a good article exists - good luck in creating it! If you want an eye on potential material, I know nothing about it but you can always ask. Another suggestion might be the ] - post briefly saying you're hoping to expand this article, it's a paper with some contentious history, and would appreciate users uninvolved in the "race and IQ" area willing to keep an eye on it and help ensure it keeps to a high standard.
			: Finally, when you've done what you feel right and believe it's well written and stable, and any disputes are resolved (it's a paper so hopefully that's easier to achieve), consider seeking ] standing for it, which is a nice standard to go for if you haven't tried to get an article through GA before. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 20:31, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
			:: Thanks for the advice! I will give it a shot, mostly using material from other parts of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 20:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
			::: If you use material that others have written, be careful to attribute it to them. Plagiarism (using others work as if your own without attribution) is ]. The key guideline here is ''']'''. A "good enough" way is to put a note in the edit summary referencing the original page, to be absolutely clear you are not trying to take credit for others' work. Directing others to that article or its history at minimum will show good faith and you should be fine. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 20:50, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
			== SOPA initiative ==
			{{wb|Misplaced Pages:SOPA initiative/Blackout screen designs#Oppose 2}}
			:On a second point, the first debate shouldn't be attributed to prototype 1. That's not a good way to hold a run-off vote, since the original question was black v. white and a third prototype wasn't an option until afterward. It pollutes the data and makes consensus much more difficult to evaluate for a myriad of statistical reasons. <span style="background:black;color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''''—&nbsp;''''']&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> 06:22, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
			::I'll make a mock-up of it for you that reduces the amount of supplemental text by 20% or so. <span style="background:black;color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''''—&nbsp;''''']&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> 06:57, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
			{{wb|Misplaced Pages:SOPA initiative/Blackout screen designs#Oppose 2}}
			{{wb|Misplaced Pages:SOPA initiative/Proposed Messages#Arbitrary break 1}}
			== RevDel RfC? (follow up) ==
			With the holidays behind us, I think now would be a good time to hold the RfC on changing the revision deletion policy, about which ] approximately a month ago.
			I reviewed the proposed language we were discussing last spring, and it strikes me as just fine. The only thing I would question is the part which suggests possible replacements for RD5. First of all, I think we can/should consider RD7 (banned users' edits) a dead proposal, based on the RfC on that matter, which was actually completed. Second, while the proposed replacements which would parallel CSD#U3 and CSD#G9 could both potentially be incorporated into the RevDel criteria, perhaps they shouldn't be proposed in this RfC. Including those proposals in this RfC might be a bid to do two too many things at once. Just look at ] and how muddled it got, and that was because only two distinct proposals were being put forth!
			Your thoughts? ] (]) 03:35, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
			: Best wait till after January 18-19, SOPA's taking my attention and will take others' too. Maybe both look at it in about a week? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 03:40, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
			::Certainly. I'll ping you then. ] (]) 03:43, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
			I've started the RfC on the talk page ]. I reviewed everything carefully and tweaked Rd232's proposal a bit, and I think that the current text of the proposal is in line with the ideas we agreed upon in May. If there are any changes you would like to make, I welcome you to do so. ] (]) 16:25, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
			==Article Feedback Tool==
			Hey guys; apologies for the belated nature of this notification; as you can probably imagine, the whole blackout thing kinda messed with our timetables :P. Just a quick reminder that we've got an office hours session tomorrow at 19:00 in #wikimedia-office, where we'll be discussing the results of the hand-coding and previewing some new changes. Hope to see you there :). ] (]) 22:14, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
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			== Article titles ==
			Hi , did you know we don't quote article titles, they are the titillation, the eye catcher and that writers are generally allowed a degree of license with titles? that , ...was described as "hypocritical" by Forbes,(why did you add the quotation marks?) using to support it was imo not very correct at all - the word ''hypocrisy'' was not in the article at all and it was not that anyone was being described by Forbes as anything at all. Even if the title of the article was actually worthy of reporting (which it isn't - ever) you would rather need to attribute it to the writer not the publication. ]]] 22:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
			: Titles are generally designed for titillation. However this one specifically stated that Forbes identified the person as a hypocrite; it's no less quotable as something Forbes said than when the Daily Mail ] Norris and Dobson to be "murderers" (1997) in the ] case. (The case itself was reopened 10 years later and came to trial recently, the two were found guilty). A headline is a reliable source for a plain statement that X said Y. In this case it's a reliable high-quality source that Forbes called the person a "hypocrite". ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 22:35, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
			::Forbes also is not in the article. I will leave it with you - I will ask at the noticeboard. ]]] 22:46, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
			: (Quotation marks are for the usual reason, because it's an actual quote, that's the specific term used. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:09, 21 January 2012 (UTC))
			This is the title - PIPA Weakens as SOPA Gets Hypocritical - the only mention of the word hypocritical - the article was not written by Forbes and Smith is not named in the title. I am of the position that your addition (since removed) was basically your editorial license on top of the original editorial license which created a completely undue and basically, false statement. ]]] 23:13, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
			: Let's solve that then, I think the same issue's been mentioned and handled with a different approach to wording elsewhere that might work. For BLP's extra caution is sensible - especially for negative matters. Will have a go at it shortly. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:21, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
			::No - its not going back into the BLP in any form - Your campaign employs someone to create a campaign website and that is that, the subject has no personal involvement or personal responsibility in what pictures are uploaded to it. The website was only tangentially connected to him, was run by a company and content about the website and any minor claims to a picture not correctly attributed there does not belong at all in his BLP. - ]]] 23:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
			::: Disagree, sorry. This wasn't some random matter. It was discussed on at least 3 major, reputable news media - Time, Atlantic Wire, and Forbes - and a number of other reliable sources. In each case, it was directly commented on and considered as a reflection on or negative point to the man, not some unknown subordinates. It gained significant attention in that whole editorials focused on this one issue (ie not merely "in passing"). It was raised as a discussion point for, and in the context of, his sponsorship of PIPA, that his own office had used infringing material on his own website. Had it been deemed "minor" by the mainstream, sites like these would not have published whole articles on it using terms like "hypocritical" and in one case . I chose the milder of the two. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:57, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
			:::: (As an aside, other coverage - reliable sources but I think less authoritative or less high quality for a negative matter - describe him as , , or ) ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:58, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
			Clearly I strongly disagree with your position - but as you are insistent, I await your desired addition presented for discussion . ]]] 00:00, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
			== Megaupload ==
			Responded to you on the Megaupload talk page. ] (]) 22:45, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
			==Orphaned non-free image File:SOPA tweets 23.00 UTC 18 January 2012.png==
			<span style="font-size:32px; line-height:1em">''']'''</span> Thanks for uploading ''']'''. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a ]. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see ]).
			Note that any non-free images not used in any '''articles''' will be deleted after seven days, as described in the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-orphaned fair use-notice --> ] ]] 02:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
			: Fixed. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 21:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
			==office hours==
			Another notification, guys; Article Feedback Tool office hours on Friday at 19:00 UTC in #wikimedia-office :). If you can't attend, drop me a note and I'll send you the logs when we're done. We're also thinking of moving it to thursday at a later time: say, 22:00 UTC. Speak up if that'd appeal more :) ] (]) 16:18, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
			== MSU Interview ==
			Dear FT2,
			My name is Jonathan Obar ], I'm a professor in the College of Communication Arts and Sciences at Michigan State University and a Teaching Fellow with the Wikimedia Foundation's Education Program. This semester I've been running a little experiment at MSU, a class where we teach students about becoming Misplaced Pages administrators. Not a lot is known about your community, and our students (who are fascinated by wiki-culture by the way!) want to learn how you do what you do, and why you do it. A while back I proposed this idea (the class) to the community ], were it was met mainly with positive feedback. Anyhow, I'd like my students to speak with a few administrators to get a sense of admin experiences, training, motivations, likes, dislikes, etc. We were wondering if you'd be interested in speaking with one of our students.
			So a few things about the interviews:
			* Interviews will last between 15 and 30 minutes.
			* Interviews can be conducted over skype (preferred), IRC or email. (You choose the form of communication based upon your comfort level, time, etc.)
			* All interviews will be completely anonymous, meaning that you (real name and/or pseudonym) will never be identified in any of our materials, unless you give the interviewer permission to do so.
			* All interviews will be completely voluntary. You are under no obligation to say yes to an interview, and can say no and stop or leave the interview at any time.
			* The entire interview process is being overseen by MSU's institutional review board (ethics review). This means that all questions have been approved by the university and all students have been trained how to conduct interviews ethically and properly.
			Bottom line is that we really need your help, and would really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. If interested, please send me an email at obar@msu.edu (to maintain anonymity) and I will add your name to my offline contact list. If you feel comfortable doing so, you can post your name ] instead.
			If you have questions or concerns at any time, feel free to email me at obar@msu.edu. I will be more than happy to speak with you.
			Thanks in advance for your help. We have a lot to learn from you.
			Sincerely,
			Jonathan Obar --] (]) 19:23, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
			== FT2 HD possibility ==
			Hi FT2, is there any private messageing that I can contact you on. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:12, 14 February 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			==Article Feedback Tool newsletter==
			Sorry for the radio silence, guys :). I just wanted to let you know that we're planning on starting a new round of hand coding, which you can sign up for ]. This will be the final round (honest!), and is basically because we found some '''really''' interesting results from the last round that blew our collective mind. It's important to check that they weren't a fluke, though, and so a bit more work is needed.
			If you have any questions, drop a note on my talkpage - and if you know anyone who would be interested in participating, please tell them about it! We'll be holding an IRC training session in #wikimedia-office at 18:00 UTC on the 21st of March to run through the tool and answer any questions you may have. Thanks! :) ] (]) 00:41, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
			== File:NativeDeerPlate.jpg listed for deletion ==
			A file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. <!-- Template:Fdw --> ] (]) 22:38, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
			==Article Feedback Tool updates==
			Hey all. My regular(ish) update on what's been happening with the new ].
			'''Hand-coding'''
			As previously mentioned, we're doing a ] to finalise testing :). I've been completedly bowled over by the response: we have 20 editors participating, some old and some new, which is a new record for this activity. Many thanks to everyone who has volunteered so far!
			Coding should actively start on Saturday, when I'll be distributing individualised usernames and passwords to everyone. If you haven't spoken to me but would be interested in participating, either drop me a note on my talkpage or email {{nospam|okeyes|wikimedia.org}}. If you have spoken to me, I'm very sorry for the delay :(. There were some toolserver database issues beyond our control (which I think the ''Signpost'' discussed) that messed with the tool.
			'''New designs and office hours'''
			Our awesome designers have been making some new logos for the feedback page :) Check out ] and ] to get complete coverage; all opinions, comments and suggestions are welcome on ] :).
			We've also been working on the ] plugin for the tool; this will basically be the same as the existing system, only applied to comments. Because of that, we're obviously going to need slightly different filters, because different things will need to be blocked :). We're holding a '''special office hours session''' tomorrow at to discuss it. If you're a regex nut, existing abuse filter writer, or simply interested in the feedback tool and have suggestions, please do come along :).
			I'm pretty sure that's it; if I've missed anything or you have any additional queries, don't hesitate to contact me! Thanks, ] (]) 14:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			==Dispute resolution survey==
			{| style="background-color: #CCFFFF; border: 4px solid #3399cc; width:100%" cellpadding="5"
			| ]
			<big>'''Dispute Resolution – ''Survey Invite'''''</big>
			----
			Hello {{BASEPAGENAME}}. I am currently conducting a study on the dispute resolution processes on the English Misplaced Pages, in the hope that the results will help improve these processes in the future. Whether you have used dispute resolution a little or a lot, now we need to know about your experience. The survey takes around five minutes, and the information you provide will not be shared with third parties other than to assist in analyzing the results of the survey. No personally identifiable information will be released.
			'''Please click to participate.'''<br>
			Many thanks in advance for your comments and thoughts.
			----
			<small>You are receiving this invitation because you have had some activity in dispute resolution over the past year. For more information, please see the associated ]. <span style="font-family:Verdana;">] ] <sup>]</sup></span> 12:09, 5 April 2012 (UTC)</small>
			|}
			== Your HighBeam account is ready! ==
			Good news! You now have access to 80 million articles in 6500 publications through HighBeam Research. Here's what you need to know:
			* Your account activation code has been emailed to your Misplaced Pages email address.
			**Only 407 of 444 codes were successfully delivered; most failed because email was simply not set up (You can set it in ]).
			**If you did not receive a code but were on the ], add your name to ] and we'll try again.
			* The 1-year, free period begins when you enter the code.
			* To activate your account: 1) Go to ; 2) You’ll see the first page of a two-page registration. 3) Put in an email address and set up a password. (Use a different email address if you signed up for a free trial previously); 4) Click “Continue” to reach the second page of registration; 5) Input your basic information; 6) Input the activation code; 7) Click “Finish”. Note that the activation codes are one-time use only and are case-sensitive.
			* If you need assistance, email "help at highbeam dot com", and include "HighBeam/Wikipedia" in the subject line. Or go to ], or ask ]. Please, per HighBeam's request, do not call the toll-free number for assistance with registration.
			* A quick reminder about using the account: 1) try it out; 2) provide original citation information, in addition to linking to a HighBeam article; 3) avoid bare links to non-free HighBeam pages; 4) note "(subscription required)" in the citation, where appropriate
			* HighBeam would love to hear feedback at ]
			* Show off your HighBeam access by placing <nowiki>{{User:Ocaasi/highbeam_userbox}}</nowiki> on your userpage
			* When the 1-year period is up, check ] to see if renewal is possible. We hope it will be.
			Thanks for helping make Misplaced Pages better. Enjoy your research! Cheers, ]<sup> ]&#124;]</sup> 20:41, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0256 -->
			== Misplaced Pages Stories Project ==
			Hi!
			My name is Victor and I'm a storyteller with the Wikimedia Foundation, the non-profit organization that supports Misplaced Pages. I'm chronicling the inspiring stories of the Misplaced Pages community around the world, including those from readers, editors, and donors. Stories are absolutely essential for any non-profit to persuade people to support the cause, and we know the vast network of people who make and use Misplaced Pages have so much to share.
			'''I'd very much like to talk with you about your work on the Deepwater Horizon Article'''
			I'd very much like the opportunity to interview you to tell your story, with the possibility of using it in our materials, on our community websites, or as part of this year’s fundraiser to encourage others to support Misplaced Pages. '''Please let me know if you're inclined to take part in the Misplaced Pages Stories Project, or if you know anyone with whom I should speak.'''
			Thank you for your time,
			Victor Grigas
			]
			vgrigas@wikimedia.org
			] (]) 23:23, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
			: Sure! Life's been insanely busy here (and will be a bit longer) and I've been travelling, but it can be fitted in. Let me know how you prefer to do it? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 10:56, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
			==Article Feedback Tool office hours==
			Hey {{PAGENAME}}; just a quick note to let you know that we'll be holding an ] session at (don't worry, I got the time right ;p) on 4th May in #wikimedia-office. This is to show off the almost-finished feedback page and prep it for a more public release; I'm incredibly happy to have got to this point :). Hope to see you there! Regards, ] (]) 03:53, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
			== ] of ] ==
			]] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 04:52, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
			==] nomination of ]==
			]
			{{Quote box|quote=<p>If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read ].</p><p>You may want to consider using the ] to help you create articles.</p>|width=20%|align=right}}
			Hello, and welcome to Misplaced Pages. This is a notice that the page that you created was tagged as a test page and has been or soon may be deleted. Please use the ] for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the ] if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia.
			If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit ''']''' to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with ]. If the page is deleted, you can contact ] to request that the administrator ] the page or email a copy to you. <!-- Template:Db-test-notice --> ] (]) 05:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
			==] nomination of ]==
			]
			{{Quote box|quote=<p>If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read ].</p><p>You may want to consider using the ] to help you create articles.</p>|width=20%|align=right}}
			Hello, and welcome to Misplaced Pages. This is a notice that the page that you created was tagged as a test page and has been or soon may be deleted. Please use the ] for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the ] if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia.
			If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit ''']''' to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with ]. If the page is deleted, you can contact ] to request that the administrator ] the page or email a copy to you. <!-- Template:Db-test-notice --> ] (]) 05:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
			==] nomination of ]==
			]
			{{Quote box|quote=<p>If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read ].</p><p>You may want to consider using the ] to help you create articles.</p>|width=20%|align=right}}
			Hello, and welcome to Misplaced Pages. This is a notice that the page that you created was tagged as a test page and has been or soon may be deleted. Please use the ] for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the ] if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia.
			If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit ''']''' to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with ]. If the page is deleted, you can contact ] to request that the administrator ] the page or email a copy to you. <!-- Template:Db-test-notice --> ] (]) 05:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
			==] nomination of ]==
			]
			{{Quote box|quote=<p>If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read ].</p><p>You may want to consider using the ] to help you create articles.</p>|width=20%|align=right}}
			Hello, and welcome to Misplaced Pages. This is a notice that the page that you created was tagged as a test page and has been or soon may be deleted. Please use the ] for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the ] if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia.
			If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit ''']''' to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with ]. If the page is deleted, you can contact ] to request that the administrator ] the page or email a copy to you. <!-- Template:Db-test-notice --> ] (]) 05:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
			{{you've got mail}}
			==Article Feedback Tool, Version 5==
			Hey all :)
			Just a quick update on what we've been working on:
			*The ''']''' is now live! Feel free to use it and all other feedback pages; there's no prohibition on playing around, dealing with the comments or letting others know about it, although the full release comes much later. Let me know if you find any bugs; we know it's a bit odd in Monobook, but that should be fixed in our deployment this week.
			*On '''Thursday, 7th June''' we'll be holding an ] session at in #wikimedia-office. We'll be discussing all the latest developments, as well as what's coming up next; hope to see you all there!
			*Those of you who hand-coded feedback; I ''believe'' I contacted you all about t-shirts. If I didn't, ] and I'll get it sorted out :).
			Thanks! ] (]) 22:50, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
			== SPI ==
			I've been informed that you might be helpful at an SPI regarding Poetlister, by someone who is no longer a part of the community. ] - ] ] 22:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
			== AWOL ==
			{{notice|As my recent contribs might suggest, life has dragged me away - I'll be back and around, but could be off-wiki some time, more than likely measured in many months rather than weeks (with exceptions when something irresistible to edit comes up).<br /><br />Admins - please assume my consent if you want to deal with any case or matter where I've been active; if I'm not around do what seems best.<br /><br />] if anyone needs it or wants to check anything with me; I should get that fairly promptly and will try to respond. If I don't (or if I do but help is limited as I'm busy), do what seems best. <br /><br />I'll be back in wiki-harness, but some good stuff has come up to work on for a while, plus helping out a little this year and maybe next with a different free project that needs it.<br /><br />] 22:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)}}
			== WP:MAN ==
			If you get time, please see ]. ]]....] ''always punctual, no matter how late for just 6 years'' 20:33, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
			==AFT5 release coming up - help us design a banner!==
			Hey all :). First-off, thanks to everyone for all their help so far; we're coming up to a ''much'' wider deployment :). Starting at the end of this month, and scaling up until 3 July, AFT5 will begin appearing on '''10 percent''' of articles. For this release we plan on sending out a CentralNotice that every editor will see - and for this, we need your help :). We've got plans, we know how long it's going to run for, where it's going to run...but not what it says. If you've got ideas for banners, give a read and submit your suggestion! Many thanks, ] (]) 16:25, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
			==Higgs boson==
			Please take help from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/265088/Higgs-particle
			Thanks--] <sup>]</sup> ߷ <sub>]</sub> 05:30, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
			==Article Feedback newsletter==
			Hey all!
			So, big news this week - on Tuesday, we ramped up to 5 percent of articles :). There's been a lot more feedback (pardon the pun) as I'm sure you've noticed, and to try and help we've scheduled a large number of office hours sessions, including one this evening at in the {{irc|wikimedia-office}} channel, and another at for the aussies amongst us :). I hope to see some of you there - if any of you can't make it but have any questions, ].
			Thanks! ] (]) 20:38, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
			==AFT5 newsletter==
			Hey again all :). So, some big news, some small news, some good news, some bad news!
			On the "big news" front; we've now deployed AFT5 on to 10 percent of articles, This is pretty awesome :). On the "bad news", however, it looks like we're having to stop at 10 percent until around September - there are scaling issues that make it dangerous to deploy wider. Happily, our awesome features engineering team is looking into them as we speak, and I'm optimistic that the issues will be resolved.
			For both "small" and "good" news; we've got another ] session. This one is tomorrow, at in {{channel|wikimedia-office}} - I appreciate it's a bit late for Europeans, but I wanted to juggle it so US east coasters could attend if they wanted :). Hope to see you all there!
			== Peter Damian at AN ==
			I think I recall that Peter Damian was involved with you before he was community banned. FYI there is a community unban discussion on ] right now. You may want to comment there... ] (]) 07:25, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
			: I'd rather not comment on this individual. There's a risk of people polarizing around personalities, rather than the issue actually raised, if I did. I have avoided interaction with this individual and commenting on him for a long time and continue to avoid these now. Ultimately a user's actions and history, and community consensus, will determine the request's outcome.
			: My only involvement was uncomfortable and unpleasant, but that was long, long, ago. If the community believes that the individual is capable of rejoining and respecting norms, and would not take this as vindication of past conduct or opportunity to act up again, then that's fine, if the community feels that a chance should not be given that's fine too. It's the community's choice not mine at this point; I haven't had any involvement in his history for years and am the wrong person to ask for a view on his current standing.
			: Without commenting on the individual or his case, it is easier to comment on the general situation of banned users. As a community we try to allow good edits if it's likely to be without "more trouble than it's worth" and harm to the community and project. Sometimes it's not possible; other times people change. If the community feels we can reasonably unban some user who is capable of good content, while ring-fencing them with strong conditions on permitted pages or activities to prevent any return to abuse (along with anti-gaming provisions, using wording like ''"appears to be"'' or ''"involvement of any kind in any issue relating to"'') it's always worth considering the option. That applies to many people, it's common sense. The crucial thing is drafting robust and {{nowrap|hard-to-game}} conditions that even if pushed won't leave openings for a return of any old behaviors or foreseeable similar tactics. The risk is that such users play a "long game" and over time seek relaxed sanctions while pushing the envelope. Paradoxically, well known or repeat-ban ex-users are easier to try this approach, since attempts to act up would probably not divide the community and their bans are easily re-imposed if the experiment fails. On the other hand the community's patience can wear out too, or a user banned for poor conduct simply shows themselves incapable of reasonable long-term compliance. It depends.
			: I hope these thoughts are useful in general for unban discussions, but when it comes to this individual and his own case, I currently have no public opinion and would rather leave it to the community. Others know him far better than I do. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 09:03, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
			::That all makes sense. I agree with you in general. Taking the high road and leaving it to the community is a good step on your part.
			::Hope you have a good day.
			:: ] (]) 21:49, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
			== ] ==
			Would you please not add contentious material to a protected page without consensus? is highly inflammatory for a BLP, especially the claim of "Akin's scientific ignorance", the edit about "distrust of rape reports" is similarly inflammatory, and is a clear violation of WP:SYNTH. Per WP:PROTECT you should only be making changes to a protected article if they are uncontroversial or have consensus on the talk page.--] (]) 14:22, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
			: Apologies, you're absolutely right, it was protected and I hadn't noticed.
			: However in BLP terms I would say I don't think these are synthesis or diverging from sources, though I'm open to disagreement. They aim to accurately and validly characterize exactly what sources state. I gave 3 sources. There were numerous others. I've moved this to the article talk page for more eyeballs, and thanks for pointing it out. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 15:33, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
			::Thank you.--] (]) 17:26, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
			== '''The Olive Branch''': A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #1) ==
			Welcome to the first edition of ''The Olive Branch''. This will be a place to semi-regularly update editors active in ] (DR) about some of the most important issues, advances, and challenges in the area. You were delivered this update because you are ], but if you would prefer not to receive any future mailing, just add your name to ].
			]
			In this issue:
			* '''Background''': A brief overview of the DR ecosystem.
			* '''Research''': The most recent DR data
			* '''Survey results''': Highlights from Steven Zhang's April 2012 survey
			* '''Activity analysis''': Where DR happened, broken down by the top DR forums
			* '''DR Noticeboard comparison''': How the newest DR forum has progressed between May and August
			* '''Discussion update''': Checking up on the Wikiquette Assistance close debate
			* '''Proposal''': It's time to close the ]. Agree or disagree?
			<div style="text-align:center; font-size:larger;">]</div>
			--''The Olive Branch'' 19:01, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0345 -->
			== '''The Olive Branch''': A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #2) ==
			:''To add your named to the newsletter delivery list, please sign up ]''
			'''This edition The Olive Branch is focusing on a 2nd dispute resolution RfC. Two significant proposals have been made. Below we describe the background and recent progress and detail those proposals. Please review them and follow the link at the bottom to comment at the RfC. We need your input!'''
			{{collapsetop|View the full newsletter}}
			;Background
			Until late 2003, ] was the arbiter in all major disputes. After the ] and the ] were founded, Wales delegated his roles of dispute resolution to these bodies. In addition to these committees, the community has developed a number of informal processes of dispute resolution. At its peak, over 17 dispute resolution venues existed. Disputes were submitted in each venue in a different way.
			Due to the complexity of Misplaced Pages dispute resolution, ] about their experiences with dispute resolution. In general, the community believes that dispute resolution is too hard to use and is divided among too many venues. Many respondents also reported their experience with dispute resolution had suffered due to a shortage of volunteers and backlogging, which may be due to the disparate nature of the process.
			An evaluation of dispute resolution forums was made in May this year, in which data on response and resolution time, as well as success rates, was collated. This data is ].
			;Progress so far
			]. Here, participants fill out a request through a form, instead of through wikitext, making it easier for them to use, but also imposing word restrictions so volunteers can review the dispute in a timely manner.]]
			Leading off from the survey in April and the evaluation in May, several changes to ] were proposed. Rather than using a wikitext template to bring disputes to DRN, editors used a ]. This form was simpler to use, but also standardised the format of submissions and applied a word limit so that DRN volunteers could more easily review disputes. A ] to summarise, and a robot to maintain the noticeboard, were also created.
			As a result of these changes, volunteers responded to disputes in a third of the time, and resolved them 60% faster when compared to May. Successful resolution of disputes increased by 17%. Submissions were 25% shorter by word count.(see )
			Outside of DRN other simplification has taken place. The ] was closed in August, and ] was closed in September. Nevertheless, around fifteen different forums still exist for the resolution of Misplaced Pages disputes.
			;Proposed changes
			Given the success of the past efforts at DR reform, the current RFC proposes we implement:
			1) A '''submission gadget for every DR venue''' tailored to the unique needs of that forum.
			* Similar to the one that was deployed, with great success, to the DRN.
			* Structured based on the specific issues most commonly dealt with at each forum.
			* Designed to improve the quality of requests for DR and the efficiency of DR at that forum.
			* Applicable at following noticeboards: ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ].
			* Forms will merely fill out any existing templates (such as Arbcom's) and create a markup-free form in line with specific noticeboard practices otherwise.
			* Example form fields: What pages are involved? What users are involved? What is the issue? What resolution is desired?
			2) A '''universal dispute resolution wizard''', accessible from ].
			*This wizard would ask a series of structured questions about the nature of the dispute.
			*It would then determine to which dispute resolution venue a dispute should be sent.
			*If the user agrees with the wizard's selection, s/he would then be asked a series of questions about the details of the dispute (for example, the usernames of the involved editors).
			*The wizard would then submit a request for dispute resolution to the selected venue, in that venue's required format (using the logic of each venue's specialized form, as in proposal #1). The wizard would not suggest a venue which the user has already identified in answer to a question like "What other steps of dispute resolution have you tried?".
			*Similar to the way the DRN request form operates, this would be enabled for all users. A user could still file a request for dispute resolution manually if they so desired.
			*Coding such a wizard would be complex, but the DRN gadget would be used as an outline.
			*Once the universal request form is ready (coded by those who helped create the DRN request form) the community will be asked to try out and give feedback on the wizard. The wizard's logic in deciding the scope and requirements of each venue would be open to change by the community at any time.
			3) Additionally, we're seeking any ideas on '''how we can attract and retain more dispute resolution volunteers'''.
			{{collapsebottom}}
			'''Please share your thoughts at the ].'''
			--''The Olive Branch'' 18:41, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0364 -->
			== Userfication of ] ==
			Hi FT2, would you be willing to userfy (or at the very least email) the content of ], so I can clean it up and restore the article? I believe that is a valuable article for Misplaced Pages to have, and am willing to spend some time cleaning it up to make sure it satisfies BLP policies. Thanks, <span style="border:1px solid white;background-color: yellow; color: blue">]]]M</span> 01:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
			: For sure! 1/ Do you want the entire page and all history, or just the content of the latest revision? 2/ Would ] be best or do you want it at some other location? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 01:30, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
			::1. I'm guessing the full page history would be valuable to have since it would make a move back to the main space easier. 2. That would be fine, thank you! <span style="border:1px solid white;background-color: yellow; color: blue">]]]M</span> 01:36, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
			::: My bad. See ] item 7 ("just an essay" but has good acceptance and is broadly good guidance). I emailed the August 17 2012 01:47 version (latest, unedited) instead. If you want to edit on-wiki I suppose it could be just about okay in a collapse box or commented out, in user space, as it wont be linked internally or indexed externally, or visible on a plain load of the page. If you want to do that, best quickly check with ] first (one difficult decision in a matter is enough for me!!).
			::: . ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 02:26, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
			::::Thanks, I got your email. For now I'll keep it off wiki until I feel satisfied with the content of the article (and I'll probably ask you to look at it again before publishing on-wiki again). <span style="border:1px solid white;background-color: yellow; color: blue">]]]M</span> 02:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
			== Jimmy Savile ==
			The question of balance in the introduction has been much discussed on the talk page, and I suggest you raise your concerns there. is certainly not a BBC site, and I doubt its reliability on a topic like this. I'm out for the next few hours, but hope to return to the discussion later. ] (]) 13:33, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
			: Raised there, and hopefully enough cites to reassure you now. Thanks. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:40, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
			::Thanks for your note. I just made a minor edit, then noticed the problem in the lead, so reverted it. Cheers! ] (]) 16:35, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
			== ] of ] ==
			]] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 16:19, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Civility questions ==
			Hi. I've reverted your edits to the questionaire page. The way it is supposed to work is that you cretae your own subpage for answering the questions, with the page you were editing substituted onto it. Instructions are at ]. Of course your previous answers can be pulled from the page history. ] (]) 04:50, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
			==This is not a newsletter==
			].
			Anyway. You're getting this note because you've participated in discussion and/or asked for updates to either the ] or ]. This isn't about either of those things, I'm afraid ;p. We've recently started working on yet another project: Echo, a notifications system to augment the watchlist. There's not much information at the moment, because we're still working out the scope and the concepts, but if you're interested in further updates you can sign up ].
			In addition, we'll be holding an ] session at on Wednesday, 14 November in #wikimedia-office - hope to see you all there :). I appreciate it's an annoying time for non-Europeans: if you're interested in chatting about the project but can't make it, give me a shout and I can set up another session if there's enough interest in one particular timezone or a skype call if there isn't. Thanks! ] (]) 10:58, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Rape and enforced pregnancy in conflict ==
			A copy editor is working on the article ]. He had some questions on the section on ]. Since you are the editor that worked on that section the most, could you answer them, ].] (]) 16:14, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
			==Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion==
			Hello, FT2. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The discussion is about the topic ].<!--Template:NPOVN-notice--> Thank you. -- ] 11:51, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
			==AFT5 newsletter==
			Hey all :). A couple of quick updates (one small, one large)
			First, we're continuing to work on some ways to increase the quality of feedback and make it easier to eliminate and deal with non-useful feedback: hopefully I'll have more news for you on this soon :).
			Second, we're looking at ways to increase the actual number of users patrolling and take off some of the workload from you lot. Part of this is increasing the prominence of the feedback page, which we're going to try to do with a link at the top of each article to the relevant page. This should be deployed on Tuesday (touch wood!) and we'll be closely monitoring what happens. Let me know if you have any questions or issues :). Thanks, ] (]) 14:26, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Proposed deletion/removal of public view-Rider University revision==
			I'm asking if this revision of Rider University (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Rider_University&oldid=515565523) on 2:56, October 2, 2012 to be removed from public view/deleted from history. It seems to be pointless vandalism. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:41, 17 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			: It is, but I wouldn't. RevDelete exists more to remove stuff that would actually tend to do harm or disrupt Misplaced Pages or its editing - perhaps by being grossly offensive, deeply hurtful, copyvio or privacy breaching, or the like. This is ordinary unremarkable vandalism. Revert (as happened) and carry on with content writing. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 10:05, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
			== AWB ==
			If you are an administrator, you are automatically approved. There is no need to add yourself to the user list. However, don't forget AWB Rule 2 (Consider opening a bot account if you are regularly making more than a few edits a minute.")." from ]. ] (]) 15:38, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
			: Thanks, I noted this on the page for others' clarity. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 15:49, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
			== ==
			Hi FT2, could you please have a look at the discussion in the ]. Thanks, ] (]) 22:19, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
			== RfA clerks ==
			The possibility of RfA clerking was discussed in depth last year. The discussion is being revisited with new suggestions. If the proposal is to be developed the question of appointing clerks would need to be examined. This could be an informal process modeled on the appointment of SPI clerks. Your input at ] would be most appreciated. Many thanks, ] (]) 01:37, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
			==AFT5 newsletter==
			Hey all; another newsletter.
			*If you're not already aware, a ] on the future of the Article Feedback Tool on the English-language Misplaced Pages is open; any and all comments, regardless of opinion and perspective, are welcome.
			*Our final round of hand-coding is complete, and the results can be found ]; thanks to everyone who took part!
			*We've made test deployments to the German and French-language projects; if you are aware of any other projects that might like to test out or use the tool, please let me know :).
			*Developers continue to work on the upgraded version of the feedback page that was discussed during our last office hours session, with a prototype ready for you to play around with in a few weeks.
			That's all for now! ] (]) 16:10, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			== ] ==
			When I saw your recent edits to this article, I thought to myself "those are good edits". Then I realized that kind of thought should not be kept to myself. So ... thanks!
			Cheers, ] 01:50, 17 February 2013 (UTC) <small>an AutoPatcher user</small>
			: Thank you! You're welcome, too! ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 12:39, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
			==New Article Feedback version available for testing==
			Hey all.
			As promised, we've built a set of improvements to the Article Feedback Tool, which can be tested through the links ]. Please do take the opportunity to play around with it, let me know of any bugs, and see what you think :).
			A final reminder that the Request for Comment on whether AFT5 should be turned on on Misplaced Pages (and how) is soon to close; for those of you who have not submitted an opinion or !voted, it can be found ].
			Thanks! ] (]) 19:15, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
			== Your RevDelete screenshot ==
			I thought ] was looking a bit out of date, so, voilà: ]. — ] ] 17:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
			: That still wasn't subtle. Oh wait a moment, yes it was - it's a font change! Heh! ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 11:02, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
			== Safety of the LHC ==
			I wish you had floated such a radical plan on the talk page before implementing it. It took some effort (by several other editors, my part in it was small) to bring the article to GA status, now I believe that the status should be reassessed. There is repetition between the newly-added RHIC part and the pre-existing LHC part, and your new organization of the paragraphs seems odd. E.g., in the previous version the section "Safety Arguments" summarized the physics of the various safety concerns, while the section "specific concerns and responses" (''specific'' being the operative word) explained who said what and how it was rebutted (I agree that the titles could have been better). However, now you treat MBH, strangelets and "concerns not meeting peer review" as three subsections of the same "specific concerns" section. But in fact the "concerns not meeting peer review" (formerly "specific concerns and responses") concern indeed catastrophic MBH production! Also, the title "examples of colliders" sounds quite silly and does not fit very well the content of the paragraph. ] (]) 23:10, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
			P.S. pay attention to the Higgs boson article, an anonymous editor has been adding doomsday rants on the vacuum instability issue to the lead. ] (]) 23:12, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
			: Overall you're right on all the points you say. As justification, I hope the rationale makes good sense in the end, and that after it's cleaned out for any issues, it'll be agreed it's better long-term for it. It felt that we had a very off-target or not-best-targeted article, and as NPOV issues catch my eye it also felt (to me, and I don't say everyone will perceive it that way) like a very subtle NPOV issue. While the ''LHC focus'' was balanced, the article was also used for all other topics touching on collision safety, and the topic it presented overall was not just the LHC and was not given really rounded treatment, because it was constrained by its title to one specific application or one particular time it had come up, then tried to piggyback the rest onto it as background only, which didn't really read very well. It was quite "this side and that side" which is often a sign an article needs to stand back and refocus slightly. I do agree the article could now be cleaned up on all the areas you point out; I did the minimum to focus it on the topic of collision safety (generally) and to figure out a provisional structure without editing the section contents more than I had to, so it could definitely do with re-polishing.
			: The issue of high energy collisions safety (as the article says) came up before LHC, in almost identical form, at RHIC, and comes up (and surely will come up) again for super-LHC or other planned future colliders, or as a topic or concern in its own right separate from LHC. So targeting "safety of high energy particle colliders" as the central topic is a very natural umbrella. It covers all safety aspects at all high energy colliders, in a unified flow, as well as any other scenarios where high energy particle collisions' safety may be of concern. By abstracting it from the situation it most recently arose, it also allows some "standing back" and perspective" over history and time, which is harder if LHC is the focus. (For example, surely there were loud concerns over safety when we hit 100 GeV colliders too, "back in the day".) So there's a long historical context, but focusing on one specific collider in the title tends to miss it out, marginalize it, or suggest other events or history is only important as background to ''this'' collider.
			: Anyhow, I am sorry if you felt more consultation was needed. Perhaps it was a bit abrupt, especially for a GA. I'll keep an eye on the HB article too, and sure you will also. Best, and thanks. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:49, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
			::I'm not following you: what was the NPOV issue?
			::Moreover, I don't see the fact that the article was about the LHC as a problem. Indeed, both strangelets and MBH scenarios were raised for the LHC, I don't understand what you mean by "the article was also used for all ''other'' topics". The RHIC story was mentioned in the article because it was part of the background (and because some of the actors, e.g. Walter "50%-50%" Wagner, were the same). Now, the article is supposed to refer to all particle-physics experiments (BTW, where's the Tevatron?), but it still contains only a very detailed account of the LHC story preceded by a much rougher sketch of the RHIC. Just look at your "examples" (argh!) section, and compare the descriptions of the two colliders... ] (]) 00:10, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
			==Article Feedback deployment==
			Hey FT2; I'm dropping you this note because you've used ] in the last month or so. On Thursday and Friday the tool will be down for a major deployment; it should be up by Saturday, failing anything going wrong, and by Monday if something does :). Thanks, ] (]) 23:54, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
			== FYI ==
			Check again that ], there is a case for an ]. ] (]) 01:46, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			:He is an arbitor and as such his information and identity are already public. ] (]) 02:22, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			Now this IP editor is harassing me with an utterly frivolous ]. This requires an urgent explanation. ] (]) 21:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			<redacted>] (]) 22:11, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			::And that was before I saw and ... ] (]) 22:14, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			== Plagurisim ==
			My textbooks have apparently been plagerized. Mr. Brandt distributes a free tool and I just ran it and I found dozens of articles which plagurized my research papers on arxiv and several textbooks. Who do I report this to? ] (]) 02:20, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			: My understanding is that people often contact {{nospam|info-en-c|wikimedia.org}}, giving an exact page or link to the exact text they believe they own the copyright to, and evidence substantiating or proving that they are the owner of the copyright in the text. Be aware that the law allows a certain degree of use. If you want to complain more formally, there is something called an ] request, and I believe one sends it to the ], but it's best to ask them if unsure. If you want to check, either of those will be able to help. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 03:13, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			Am I permitted to simply remove the materials in question and post the relevant links to the talk page? ] (]) 03:20, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			I am not interested in sending OCILLA or any other nonsense legalese documents to anyone. For one it's a waste of everyone's time. For another, it's simply not my style. When people have to resort to such things, the relationship of mutuality is simply over. ] (]) 03:22, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			:PS. Mutuality is also over when you threaten someone online. ] (]) 03:26, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			Never mind. I'll just simply post the materials to Mr. Brandt's website. They seem to get taken down then. I have dozens of papers on arxiv and they are not free use copyright since they were published by an acedemic organization and not posted wikipedia style there. At any rate, I'll send them to him to post. ] (]) 03:25, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			You are going to crap your drawers when you find out who I am in the physics community. I am blacklisting this website in our organization. Jus! ] (]) 03:30, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			:If you would provide links to the pages that infringe your work, and then links to your work itself, we can look into it. ] (]) 03:33, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			:OMG what on earth is a "neo roman asshole"? on your talkpage. I am rolling out of my chair laughing. ???? ] (]) 04:06, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			:Since you are trying to get a PhD in biology, here is a project for you. Four subunits beneath the IGP singaling pathway, swap the adenine and tyrosine pair in a mouse, and you will discover you have halted aging. It's caused by NF Kappa B production (mild inflamatory response) as the result of a transcription error in FOX 2-5 -- they add a broken acetyl group to these transciption factors which appear to be the cause of aging in mammals. Would make a good thesis and you will discover it cures aging. Also, ] is the cause of cancer in humans -- it supresses the p53 tumor suppresor gene. No kidding, chocolate is the cause of cancer in humanity. ] (]) 04:13, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			Don't bother. I don't want to waste any more time. Anything and everything except simply apologize for your conduct. i.e. Dear Sir, we noticed you yourself removed the edit in question before we threatened you. We apologize for doing so, please consider helping us, since we clearly need it. Try that instead. ] (]) 04:01, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			What the hell is a talk page for then? I was attempting to discuss it with someone and we had concensus, what right do you have to threaten us after we ourselves handled it without you? ] (]) 04:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			== Courtesy notice ==
			Blocking {{user|68.69.166.126}} became unavoidable. See his latest oversighted contribs to see why. ] (]) 22:24, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
			== A cupcake for you! ==
			{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Just wanted to thank you for working on ]. Amazing article - one of the things that makes the internet not suck. Thanks again. ''']'''<sub>Make ] not ]</sub> 21:34, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
			|}
			== A barnstar for you! ==
			{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
			|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Original Barnstar'''
			|-
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | For excellent work on ] ] (]) 18:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
			|}
			==Pending release of Notifications==
			Hey {{BASEPAGENAME}} :). I'm dropping you a note because you have signed up for the ], or Echo, newsletter.
			If all goes according to plan, we should be launching Echo on en-wiki either tomorrow, or next Tuesday - I'll drop a followup tomorrow when we know what's happening. Should the launch succeed, we'll begin the process of triaging bugs and gathering feedback on what features work, what cause problems, and what we should do next; I hope you'll help us out on these fronts by leaving any comments you might have ].
			Thanks, ] (]) 21:44, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
			== Your 05:29, 20 August 2010 edit to WP:UP ==
			Hi FT2,
			In 2010 you made a major rewrite of ]. Overall it was very good, though a bit shocking to slow people like myself. Today I decided that I don't support the usefulness of one particular edit: ]. I have raised the matter here: ]. --] (]) 06:47, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
			: Commented there - thanks, a good catch! Note that the paragraph was over 3 years older and added in 2007, by ], who should be notified. And whose username needs an apostrophe ;-) ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 07:57, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
			==Notifications box replacement prototypes released==
			Hey FT2; Kaldari has finished scripting a set of potential replacements available to test and give feedback on. Please go to ] for more detail on how to enable them. ] (]) 15:33, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
			== May 2013 ==
			] Hello, I'm ]. I wanted to let you know that I removed an external link you added&nbsp;to the page ], because it seemed to be inappropriate for an encyclopedia. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on ], or take a look at our ] about links. Thank you. ]<!-- Template:uw-spam1 --> —]_] 10:02, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
			== Higgs article ==
			Hi FT2, have a look ]. Cheers, ] (]) 15:07, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
			Hi FT2, I am wondering if we should keep citing ] in the section on ]. The post propagates claims of that, as you can see in the latter's comments section, have been debunked by no less than your new hero ]... ;-) Cheers, ] (]) 13:41, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
			: My new hero? I'm asked to provide/recheck old cites because of real-world attention and (as often happens) the cites when checked provide an extra nugget that seems to be sane, salient, and match the facts stated elsewhere. So its added. Can Frank Close - and anyone else in a citation - not be my "new hero" today? Kthx!
			: Anyhow, my first thought is - the author's (apparently, and nobody's saying otherwise) a post doctorate at CERN on ATLAS, so presumably knows what they are talking about. But comments from Frank CLose (or so it seems and again no-one's saying otherwise) disagree with the post. My technical knowledg is way too low for this. Can you figure out what point it's supporting in the article 1/ if that point is invalid, valid but supported by a poor/dubious cite, or has multiple significant viewpoints that need mention, and 2/ is there stuff we say (or should say) in the article body which you think we should fix, remove, or get a better cite for? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 14:44, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
			::Aidan Randle-Conde (ARC) - the author of - claims that the decay of a spin-2 particle into two spin-1/2 particles is forbidden, because you cannot add up two spin-1/2 states to make a spin-2 state. Frank Close (FC) points out the rather trivial fact that ARC's reasoning neglects orbital angular momentum. A spin-2 particle can decay to two spin-1/2 particles in a state with orbital angular momentum L=1 (i.e., what is called a P wave). FC also stresses that the decay of a scalar (such as the SM Higgs) to two spin-1/2 particles also occurs in a L=1 state (because of parity conservation), thus it is neither suppressed nor enhanced w.r.t. the corresponding decay of a spin-2 particle. Finally, FC points out that ARC's explanation for why a spin-1 particle cannot decay to two photons is also incorrect (the correct explanation is subtler, and it's given e.g. on page 359 of Close's own textbook). Even after FC's rebuttal (with real-life examples) to ARC's confused reply (see ), ARC refuses to amend his post.
			::I can't see any flaw in FC's arguments, and I think that we are doing a disservice to the readers by directing them to ] (a questionable kind of source to start with) that propagates incorrect information. I would simply remove the reference, after all it's not the only one we are providing. As to the fact that "a CERN postdoc presumably knows what they are talking about", the sad truth is that 1) experimentalists cannot always be trusted to understand theoretical subtleties, as you can judge by ARC's handwaving reply linked above, and 2) some people would not admit being wrong even under torture. If you (FT2) don't trust your own knowledge and want to go for authority, consider that an Oxford professor of theoretical particle physics, author of various textbooks on the topic, "presumably knows what he's talking about" better than some postdoc experimentalist. Cheers, ] (]) 15:45, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
			::As to why we were citing ] in the first place, if I remember correctly an earlier version of the section contained the erroneous claim that a spin-2 particle cannot decay to two taus. It might be that we removed the claim but not the reference. Cheers, ] (]) 15:55, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
			::: Sounds sensible - can you fix it? I think my technical knowledge might mean I'd under- or over-correct it if I tried. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 16:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
			== August 2013 ==
			] Hello, I'm ]. I have automatically detected that to ] may have broken the ] by modifying 1 ""s. If you have, don't worry, just again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on .
			:List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page:
			*<nowiki>as the Union Jack"] - Carradice saddlebags history, classiclightweights.co.uk, by Steve Griffith</nowiki>{{red|'''&#93;'''}}<nowiki>: ''Carradice had a number of rivals in the cycle bag market. These included ... Dunlop ... and</nowiki>
			Thanks, <!-- (0, -1, 0, 0) --><!-- User:BracketBot/inform -->] (]) 14:05, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
			] Hello, I'm ]. I have automatically detected that to ] may have broken the ] by modifying 1 ""s. If you have, don't worry, just again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on .
			:List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page:
			*<nowiki>as the Union Jack"] - Carradice saddlebags history, classiclightweights.co.uk, by Steve Griffith</nowiki>{{red|'''&#93;'''}}<nowiki>: ''Carradice had a number of rivals in the cycle bag market. These included ... Dunlop ... and</nowiki>
			*<nowiki>of Knowledge: Entrepreneurship, Innovation and Networks in the British Outdoor Trade 1960-1990</nowiki>{{red|'''&#93;'''}}<nowiki>'' (2003).</ref> initially driven by the [[1953 British Mount Everest expedition|1953 climbing of</nowiki>
			Thanks, <!-- (0, -1, 0, 0) --><!-- User:BracketBot/inform -->] (]) 21:44, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
			] Hello, I'm ]. I have automatically detected that to ] may have broken the ] by modifying 1 ""s. If you have, don't worry, just again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on .
			{{{!}} class="navbox collapsible collapsed" style="text-align: left; border: 1px solid silver; margin-top: 0.2em;" {{!}}-
			! style="background-color: #FAA;" {{!}} <div style="font-size:112%;">List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page<span style="font-size:88%;margin-left:3em;">(Click show <span style="font-size:130%;">⇨</span>)</span></div>
			{{!}}-
			{{!}} style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white; " {{!}} <div style="font-size:112%;">
			*<nowiki>as the Union Jack"] - Carradice saddlebags history, classiclightweights.co.uk, by Steve Griffith</nowiki>{{red|'''&#93;'''}}<nowiki>: ''Carradice had a number of rivals in the cycle bag market. These included ... Dunlop ... and</nowiki>
			*<nowiki>of Knowledge: Entrepreneurship, Innovation and Networks in the British Outdoor Trade 1960-1990</nowiki>{{red|'''&#93;'''}}<nowiki>'' (2003).</ref> driven initially by the [[1953 British Mount Everest expedition|1953 climbing of</nowiki>
			*<nowiki>of Knowledge: Entrepreneurship, Innovation and Networks in the British Outdoor Trade 1960-1990</nowiki>{{red|'''&#93;'''}}<nowiki>'' (2003).</ref>) also had a lasting impact on the company's profile in its field, and gave its</nowiki>
			</div>
			{{!}}}
			Thanks, <!-- (0, -1, 0, 0) --><!-- User:BracketBot/inform -->] (]) 00:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
			==DYK for Karrimor==
			{{tmbox
			|style = notice
			|small =
			|image = ]
			|text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that British manufacturer ''']'''{{`s}} reputation for ] equipment was a direct result of its location in ], and a CEO who was an climber and ]?'' The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ]. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>(], )</small> and it will be added to ] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the ].
			}}<!-- Template:UpdatedDYK --> ] (]) 00:03, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
			== Re: DYK edit ==
			Thank you for the message. I apologise for the lack of communication on my part.
			The change appeared to be trivial at the initial glance.
			Upon checking the citations and the detailed explanations you have provided, I have re-inserted both of the descriptive terms and indicted the change in ]. Cheers. ]] 07:43, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
			==]==
			Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.<!--Template:AN-notice--> ] (]) 14:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
			== Award ==
			{{cot|Sorry about that. ] (]) 11:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)}}
			{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
			|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|]|]}}
			|rowspan="2" |
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Original Barnstar'''
			|-
			|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Corporate shill of the year. ] (]) 18:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
			|}
			: I've ] to this attempted snark, on the user's talk page (and at the other places the matter got forum-shopped).
			: The matter was reviewed; those with concerns didn't notify those who could have answered them, and now two DYK reviewers are being pilloried for doing their job in line with uninvolved opinion.
			: <u>There may be a need</u> for discussion of "surprising but accurate characterizations at DYK", but that's not a reason to attack reviewers for following NPOV, or editors for hooks that were reviewed and endorsed more than once and without reviewer dissent, by DYK reviewers. Right now it's at ] (]) and best continued there, if anything needs saying.
			: I think the links at AN make that very clear. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 00:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
			{{cob}}
			== Megaupload Is/Was ==
			Simple heads-up about , given your ] and in January 2012. (My comment here is no judgment of that recent edit; just letting you know about it.) --] (]) 23:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
			== Request for RevisionDelete ==
			Hi, FT2. There appears to be a fairly ] (new to English Misplaced Pages, at least) who has been blanking, overwriting and importing highly biased tracts from RU wikipedia into controversial EN wikipedia pages. As he/she has done this over several edits, I am unable to simply 'undo' the edits and would prefer that a record of the activity remain. This has taken place on the ] article and I'd like it reverted to the . I'd be very grateful if you could assist me on this matter. Cheers! --] (]) 01:23, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
			:{{tps}} Unless I'm really misunderstanding what you're asking for, that's not what RevisionDelete does. It won't leave a record the way you want. What you want can be done without revision delete (and without being an admin), by clicking Edit then Save page, on the link that you posted. ] (]) 03:14, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
			::Thank heaven for little trolls! I'll try it out. If I'm too dumb to work it out I may have to stalk you for a blow by blow walkthrough. Your assistance has been invaluable! --] (]) 04:37, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
			:::Wonderful! That was precisely what I wanted to achieve, {{U|Jackmcbarn}}. The RevisionDelete info left me a perplexed as it implied that it was considered preferred and best practice for retaining subsequent edits. I can see, now, that, should there be anything of merit in the edits made by Shervinsky, I've retained all of the information for myself and the many, many 'interested' parties contributing to pick through at and squabble over at leisure on the article's talk page until a consensus on lack of consensus is reached. Can I assume that RevisionDelete is really simply the easiest method for retrieving far older versions of an entry that has been redacted, blanked & tampered with so many times over a prolonged period of time that it isn't possible to salvage it from the method you suggested? --] (]) 05:01, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
			::::{{tps}}No. Revision deletion hides deleted edits so that they can't be publicly seen. It is used for getting rid of content which is so unacceptable that it cannot be allowed to remain even in the page history, such as serious libel. Usually, when an edit has been revision-deleted, you can see in the edit history that some edit took place, but you can't see what the edit was. (I say "usually", because occasionally it is only the edit summary which is hidden from view, if an editor makes an edit which is OK, but uses an edit summary to post unacceptable content.) ] (]) 08:15, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
			:::::Right, I've got it. Of course, that is logical = revision is, to all intents and purposes, deleted. It seems obvious now but, still being on a learning curve and having been confronted with heavily biased content which had basically usurped the article, I flew into a bit of panic over the 'right' and 'wrong' way to do it.
			:::::While I'm here, I'm hoping to pick your brain over the issue at hand. ] has reinstated all of the reverted edits in the ] article. A section on ] was introduced by him ''after'' the fact of having reinstated them when I'd asked that the matter be discussed with other editors and myself first.
			:::::Yes, it's one of 'those' Slavic edit warring articles. While Shervinsky's edits may appear constructive on face value, it's basically a direct translation of the and I've now been 'challenged' further by his/her enlisting the support of someone I've been assisting in cleaning up Russian articles being pulled into English Misplaced Pages as new entries. While I have no qualms about new articles being sourced from another Misplaced Pages in the initial instance, the article in question has been carefully redacted & disputed for a number of years in order to avoid the blatant biases of the Russian entry. As Shervinsky is using VE, he/she can't even see the number of hidden comments I've made regarding citations & questionable content but haven't removed as I'm allowing some time for other contributors to address them.
			:::::The last thing I want to do is start an edit war but Shervinsky has that he/she has an agenda and does not intend to let up. The disruptive behaviour is escalating and this new user was busy tidying their new & improved version literally while I was sleeping. I'm not about to enter into a dialogue on the talk page as it lends a legitimacy to a challenge which simply shouldn't exist (plus I'm feeling somewhat antagonised and not in the right frame of mind to enter into a strategic nightmare).
			:::::Other than telling me to go away because you have a headache, could you offer me some sort of constructive advise on how to approach the matter? Thank you (in advance). --] (]) 00:21, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
			== Misplaced Pages and Current Events ==
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			== Greetings, you are invited ==
			Hello FT2, thank you for your many contributions to Misplaced Pages. I am contacting you because you are an active editor who is listed at ]. It is my hypothesis that a re-branded "WikiProject" that is more "edgy" and decentralized could prove to be more successful than a structured WikiProject when tackling issues related to this core concept. So I have started something I named ]. I've already gotten a real-life friend to sign up, and you might know how hard that is to get people to participate on this medium. I invite you to sign up/participate so that we can hopefully collaborate, build camaraderie, and improve the encyclopedia. Best regards. ] (]) <small>pls ] me (i.e. {{]}}) while signing a reply, thx</small> 17:11, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
			==]==
			Greetings. Because you participated in the ] regarding this subject, you may be interested in participating in the ]. This notice is provided pursuant to ]. Cheers! ] ] 21:29, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
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			== October 2013 ==
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			== Books and Bytes: The Misplaced Pages Library Newsletter ==
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			<div class="center"><big><big><big>''''']'''''</big></big></big>
			<p>Volume 1, Issue 1, October 2013</p>
			]
			<p>by {{user|The Interior}}, {{user|Ocaasi}}</p></div>
			<big>'''Greetings ] members!'''</big> Welcome to the inaugural edition of ''Books and Bytes'', TWL’s monthly newsletter. We're sending you the first edition of this opt-in newsletter, because you signed up, or applied for a free research account: HighBeam, Credo, Questia, JSTOR, or Cochrane. To receive future updates of ''Books and Bytes'', please add your name to ]. There's lots of news this month for the Misplaced Pages Library, including new accounts, upcoming events, and new ways to get involved...
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			<p>'''News from the library world:''' Wikipedian joins the National Archives full time; the Getty Museum releases 4,500 images; CERN goes CC-BY</p>
			<p>'''Announcing WikiProject Open:''' WikiProject Open kicked off in October, with several brainstorming and co-working sessions</p>
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			== A reference problem ==
			Hi! Some users have been working hard on ].
			you added a new reference '''huff lords & nyt lords''' but didn't define it. This has been showing as an error at the bottom of the article. "<small><strong class="error">Cite error: The named reference <code>REFNAME</code> was invoked but never defined (see the ]).</strong></small>" Can you take a look and work out what you were trying to do? Thanks -- ] <sup><small> ] </small></sup> 17:42, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
			{{done}} --] <sup><small> ] </small></sup> 17:45, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
			== Re:Death and funeral of Nelson Mandela ==
			I reverted your recent move of the page because you'd only moved the talk page rather than the whole article, but I thought it might be worth opening a discussion on the matter. Give me a couple of minutes and I'll post on the talk page. Cheers ] (]) 11:04, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
			:Discussion now open ]. Feel free to add your thoughts. Cheers again. ] (]) 11:18, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
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			== RFC sockpuppeting ==
			Hi FT2, could you comment on ]? ] (]) 07:38, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
			== Thanks for taking the time ==
			Thanks for taking the time to encourage me, it means a lot.
			] (]) 19:03, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
			== March 2014 ==
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			*<nowiki>copyright-trolls Bloomberg BusinessWeek feature: Prenda Law, the Porn Copyright Trolls], 2013-05-30</nowiki>{{red|'''&#93;'''}}<nowiki>: ''"When the judge asked Steele to identify himself, he said, “I no longer actively practice law.”</nowiki>
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			== ] ==
			Hiya. In regard to this content of yours, https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Otis_D._Wright_II&diff=602584617&oldid=601239270 is it alright here to quote so much in copyright standards and the legal externals https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1093640/031118524877.pdf can they be used, and is the detail you wrote about this single case not excessive on his life story page ? ] (]) 17:46, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
			:Attributed copying from public-domain sources such as works of the US government is fine. However, plagiarizing material under copyright, which is what you have done, is not. Though all text on Misplaced Pages is published under a ] licence, that licence ''requires'' that the authorship attribution be preserved. In the future, when copying text from one page to another please remember to indicate the source in your edit summary or on the target article's talk page. Thanks! —] (]) 18:57, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
			::Attributed copying from public-domain sources such as works of the US government is fine. - what is that about - ? - I was asking abnout excessive guoting of copyrighted content and using primary legaL DOCS to quote and post content - done your request - https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:U.S.A._v._Hudson,_Whitfield_%26_Dunlap - ] (]) 19:02, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
			:::The URL you gave points to a work of the US government (specifically, a court order from a United States District Court) which, as such, is in the public domain. You can therefore quote as much as you want without running afoul of copyright law. (Though of course, for our purposes, the amount quoted should be in line with what's necessary to give an encyclopedic overview of the topic.) If there were additional non-free sources quoted, then of course these excerpts need to comply with ]. —] (]) 19:16, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
			: As Psychonaut said, the quotations are 1/ public domain (Federal Govt original authorship), and 2/ overall small and key snippets from a large document (it's a large-ish quote for Misplaced Pages norms but small for the source document). So it's valid, neither copyright issue nor plagiarism. But it was an excessive quote and not ideal for our standards. The original issue was that the article on ] asserted that "Hudson" was one of his "notable" cases but did not said anything about the case, nor why it was notable, nor any third parties who highlighted it that way, to support Misplaced Pages's article's position. It simply stated that he called some (undescribed) government action "outrageous" - but no information what action it was, nor why, nor in what way. I've been moving round this week, so didn't have time for the research but could add enough to allude to why it might be seen that way, from a quick skim of his ruling. Enough to at least help a reader. But not ideal even so.
			: I see it's been moved to its own article, and that's probably ideal, though it still needs proper third party material to replace the over reliance on quotes and to show how it was seen by independent sources and writers. Thanks for the fix and move, whoever did it, it's cleaner now than it was. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:28, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
			::Mant thanks for your comments, interpretion of wiki guides. ] (]) 09:35, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
			::: Article now moved to ], and a little updated, may help it take shape better. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 11:58, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
			::::Fantastic improvement, well done ] (]) 20:23, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
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			== April 2014 ==
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			*<nowiki> accessed December 15, 2010.</ref><ref></ref><ref>[http://au.srichinmoyraces.</nowiki>
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			*<nowiki>in his right arm.<ref></ref> He then continued his run on 1 January 2011 from </nowiki>
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			== August 2014 ==
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			== Ebola virus ==
			On your edit , fyi, the convention is that it's an outbreak of a virus that causes the disease. It's not an outbreak of disease, per se. People get the virus first, which causes the disease, which is why I changed it to clarify. Would you reconsider your edit, then? ] (]) 15:39, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
			: I'm somewhat conflicted, because on one hand I wouldn't wish to breach a well established convention. On the other hand we don't notice or record as the primary focus, an outbreak of ''virus'', we notice and record an outbreak of a ''disease'', then identify the pathogen responsible. It also makes sense, because we care about the outbreak of a disease, and unless it has a disease implication, we don't seem to care much or care aout the outbreak of a virus in the absence of human impact. Ebola may have outbroken (sp?) long before March 2014 but we only called it an ''outbreak'' when the outbreak is observed to be of disease. Even if we did not know the etiology or responsible pathogen - if any - we would still describe the situation as an "outbreak" of a disease. Epidemologically it's important to be clear the pathogen, so in that niche one would discuss an outbreak of a birus, but beyond that niche, the vastly more common description would be an outbreak of the disease - media would not describe it as an outbreak of "Cote d'Ivoire Ebola virus" but an outbreak of "Ebola" .
			:Backing this up, I just did a google search for pages referencing "outbreak of flu" but ''NOT'' "outbreak of flu virus" (4400 hits) but the other way around has 30 hits. A second disease in the same verbal style as Ebola might be smallpox (smallpox outbreak vs smallpox virus outbreak), and again, "outbreak of smallpox" ''without'' "outbreak of smallpox virus" had 7580 hits compared to "outbreak of smallpox virus" with 5 hits. "Outbreak of meningitis" (again the disease not the pathogen) follows the same pattern.
			:In other epidemics, the disease was also the common name - there was an outbreak of "mad cow disease" or "Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease" in the UK, not an outbreak of malformed ]s, and one reads about an outbreak of "Legionnaires' disease" far more that one ever sees mention of an outbreak of ''Legionella pneumophila''.
			: Even when no pathogen is considered, we see widespread reference to describing the outbreak of the illness not the agent (rossref google: ''"outbreak of cancer"'', ''"outbreak of diabetes"'', ''"outbreak of blindness"'').
			:Not conclusive of course, but shows common usage beyond at most a narrow niche is universally to describe the outbreak as being one of the disease or condition, not of the virus. The virus absent any disease is unremarkable, the disease seems to be what is remarked upon in each case. What shall we do? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 19:03, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
			::Yes, you've just made an excellent description of the dilemma caused by the news media and Google results that lead to confusion. As a matter of fact, the naming convention for Ebola virus had to be reaffirmed by the ICTV because of the problem of the media using the term incorrectly, and even some later researchers. The correct name is Ebola virus, per the naming convention for viruses, and as the majority of the literature supports, so the name was reaffirmed. The epidemiology/virology literature supports the convention of describing a viral or bacterial outbreak as an 'outbreak of virus/bacteria.' And this being an encyclopedia, the policies I've read seem to suggest we ought to go by that convention. As for what to do in this moment, I'd like to see it put back. But this time I'd add a talk page note and add 'see talk page' in the edit summary. That might help. ] (]) 20:27, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
			== Viruses not virii ==
			Dear FT2, I noticed that you introduced the spelling virii on ]. In classical Latin virus is a ]. If one would create a possible plural, vira would be a probable candidate (also used in Stearn's Botanical latin). However, using the English plural 'viruses' would be considered as the best option in this case. With kind regards, Wimpus (talk) 09:02, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
			: I gracefully concede that in this case, the experts probably have a better chance of being correct. Still feels wrong though ;-) You might want to correct ] which doesn't agree with the other articles? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 10:52, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
			::Dear FT2, thanks for the response. Did you had a specific source for virii? With knd regards, ] (]) 12:15, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
			::: No, it's just the term that, as a native English speaker, always "felt right", and {{nowrap|"virus -> viruses"}} always felt wrong. But I can see from the articles you linked, that I might have picked up this usage from malware virus+plural. Hence why I could easily be wrong all this time :) Please do correct if experts and virology specialists would use "viruses" instead. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 13:19, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
			== Nice work ==
			Hi,<br>
			Nice work on ]. Thanks! I think there may still be some duplication, but the article is looking much better. ] (]) 13:25, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
			Hi I would like to have my revision history deleted from my page https://en.wikipedia.org/Praveen_Anidil due to privacy concerns.
			Hope you do the needful
			Thank you.
			] (]) 19:13, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
			== November 2014 ==
			] Hello, I'm ]. I have automatically detected that <span class="plainlinks"> to ] may have broken the ] by modifying 1 ""s. If you have, don't worry: just again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on .</span>
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			*<nowiki>Engineers, vol 19 issue 7 July 1931 (p.1111 - 1130), ISSN 0731-5996, DOI 10.1109/JRPROC.1931.222439</nowiki>{{red|'''&#93;'''}}<nowiki></ref> A patent was filed in 1934.<ref>[http://www.google.com/patents/US2031500?dq=carlson+</nowiki>
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			== Grooming ==
			About eight years ago you created and redirected "Grooming". We're discussing {{no redirect|Internet Grooming}} at ]. As the creator and modifier of this many years ago, you may have some views. Nobody is suggesting anyone here engages in that activity, but where best to retarget it. ] (]) 08:17, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
			: You're mistaken. I wasn't involved in that page at all (). I did create a redirect in 2006, but it was for a completely different topic AFAIK: namely the general term "]", and redirected to ] (in the sense of attending to one's appearance: animals cleaning their feathers and fur, people being groomed for interview etc) which I'd been expanding ( ).
			: As part of editing an article, one looks at whether its title - and other titles people might search and expect to find it under - are appropriate. So I created a redirect for the article I had edited.
			: Given how widely it's used (bridegroom, social grooming, child/predator grooming, other uses?) I'm more inclined now to suggest the topics "groom" and "grooming" should end up together at a disambiguation page. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 23:52, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
			==Refs for medical content==
			Please note that we do not typically use blogs or the popular press. We prefer sources per ]. Best ] (] · ] · ]) 19:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
			: That comes over as high handed and condescending, as the edit was not at all controversial, and to a medical paper (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23155478), and in addition to 'Virology' journal.
			: ] makes clear that "prefer" isn't exclusive. Not all content even in a medical article is medical. Medical journal sources are better ''for clinical scientific aspects of the content''. Mass science media can crucially collate coverage of several aspects in one place, or collate different aspects, including non-clinical real-world coverage and information not part of a peer reviewed medical paper. They can also communicate some areas more helpfully for mass readership.
			: To the point: I think your of content was generally good - tighter wording is usually better. But EVD isn't just clinical. It covers all significant aspects of EVD - human, social, and other. In that context, a belief that reputable sober-minded media widely consider one of the more serious and "dangerous" areas of "misinformation" and "conspiracy theories", should be a little more prominently addressed.
			: For that reason I think you may have veered a bit too far on the side of trimming it down. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 11:13, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
			::Consensus is specifically that we do not use the popular press for medical content. ] (] · ] · ]) 20:59, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
			::: I think you need to re-check ] for the part you missed out. I see that you didn't recheck when I suggested gently first time. Here's ] itself:
			::::: ''<u><span style="color:green;">This guideline supports the general sourcing policy</span></u> at Misplaced Pages:Verifiability with specific attention given to sources appropriate for the medical and health-related content.... <u><span style="color:green;">Sources for all other types of content—including all non-medical information in medicine-related articles—are covered by the general guideline on identifying reliable sources rather than this specific guideline</span></u>...''
			::::: ''The popular press is generally not a reliable source <u><span style="color:green;">for scientific and medical information in articles</span></u>...'' (the rest of that paragraph discusses media coverage ''of medical information'' only, in terms of poor quality assessment of its exact significance, and does not touch on mass media coverage of non-medical information.)
			::::: ''<u><span style="color:green;">Conversely, the high-quality popular press can be a good source for social, biographical, current-affairs, financial, and historical information in a medical article</span></u>. For example, popular science magazines such as New Scientist and Scientific American are not peer reviewed, <u><span style="color:green;">but sometimes feature articles that explain medical subjects in plain English</span></u>. As the quality of press coverage of medicine ranges from excellent to irresponsible, <u><span style="color:green;">use common sense</span></u>...''
			::: Putting this area of MEDRS into plain English:
			::::# Medical content should be sourced from medical sources, as medical content in mass media is usually considered dubious and unreliable in terms of its analysis of the exact content of medical studies; ''however...''
			::::# <u><span style="color:green;">All other (non-medical) content</span></u> (including social analysis, current-affairs, and popular perceptions) that is covered in medical articles, is assessed according to the general ] policy, not MEDRS.
			::::# In addition, high quality mass media can sometimes <u><span style="color:green;">explain the importance of a medical matter in plain, accessible, English</span></u>. For such sources, commonsense (not medical paper) is the way to judge the matter.
			::: An edit adding information about a medical point and citing the medical content to an NIH peer reviewed paper and ''Virology'' magazine, and using a highly reputable media source for social commentary and summary of current public perceptions and plain English meaning of the medical matter (which matches the medical sources and is hence commonsense), fits ] precisely. I hope we can now agree on this, and after reflection, let it go.
			::: I shouldn't have had to point you to the policy wording after my first comment, which clearly showed the medical information to be medically sourced. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 22:04, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
			== Nomination for deletion of Template:Deletion pending ==
			]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 13:09, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
			== Reference errors on 12 June ==
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			== ] ==
			] kind of sits in limbo: Rated as an article of "top importance", it is also rated low for quality. Maybe it is an article that would interest you? ] (]) 13:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
			: It does, and is.
			: It's such a vast field that it's not well enough defined for me, to have a stab at it myself, without a severe risk of covering aspects I know and ignoring whole swathes of the topic that I'm less familiar with. I'#ve tended to edit articles that are specific and come to my attention, this one;'s a bigger article by far in its scope. Really, the trouble on an article like this one, for me, is knowing (or identifying) in the first place what ''ought'' to be in it. If you can round up some ideas on the talk page about what belongs in it, what it should cover, that would be a good first step and we can see what we can do. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 07:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
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			== Re: Windows 10 ==
			Your edits are of concern for several reasons:
			# They are overdetailed in places.
			# You made the lead way too long.
			# You've used unusual terms such as "Microsoft Updates", "forcible", etc., that do not match the tone and make the article harder to understand.
			# For neutrality's sake, we do not use a criticism heading. Your format changes made it inconsistent with the structure of ].
			# Bare URL citations
			<span style="border:1px solid #f57900;padding:1px;">] ] </span> 15:43, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
			: Hmm. I'll look again at the edits to that article, but worth noting:
			::* "Way too long" was , of which one was extremely short (one line) - well within all norms and ] standards.
			::* Overdetailed is very subjective - people will inevitably differ on it. I wouldn't describe it as "of concern".
			::* "Microsoft Updates" isn't an "unusual term" for goodness sake.... it's the term Microsoft themselves use as well as media writers ... as well as anyone on a system that uses "Windows Updates" or "Microsoft Updates" (which covers most modern versions of Windows). It might not technically be the formal term, but it's far from "unusual" or "hard to understand".
			::* Some articles do, some don't. "It isn't like that on Windows 8" isn't really something that can be expected. More to the point, yes we do. For example, ] has a criticism section, while Windows 7 and 8.x also have one but use the euphemism "Critical reception" as a section within "reception" to cover all reception that was critical (i.e., criticism). It's very much a case of ''structuring criticism neutrally''; having a section with that title doesn't automatically make it non-neutral, and calling it something else doesn't automatically ensure neutrality -- it's how it's covered that causes non-neutrality.
			: Overall it sounds more like there are strong-ish views on areas where valid alternatives could exist. As I said, I've noted your view and thanks, hopefully all will be good from here :) ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 01:29, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
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			== Vajont ==
			Good work. I'd love to help but not sure I have much to offer. I'll try to keep an eye on it and see if there's anything I can help with. Have you seen the film? Holy ****! It's not even a really very good film, but even so ... Cheers ] (]) 19:01, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
			== Reference errors on 21 October ==
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			== Carmen ==
			Sorry, I reverted your edits to ]. The people who don't know what a toreador is can click on the link. We don't have to hold up the others (in the summary!) by an explanation. --] (]) 08:28, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
			: Thanks for the courtesy of your note :)
			: I'm dubious though - although I take your point, which is quite a reasonable one - because across the musical sphere, we routinely explain very uncommon words when they are unlikely to be familiar to a majority of readers, who could not easily understand the meaning otherwise. We don't seem to just rely on a link and "look it up if you don't know".
			: Examples from other music introductions - in ] we describe ''"he relationship of the librettist (that is, the writer of a libretto) to the composer..."'') - that's not just to mention a related term of the main topic otherwise it would say "The writer is known as a librettist" or some such; in ] we say that the duties are to execute ''"beats (meter)"'' rather than just one or the other term, ] is described as ''"a dramatic work combining text (libretto)"'', and so on. I think to most people, "toreador" is as likely to be unfamiliar as "librettist" or the musical use of the word "meter"...? Is one word in brackets really going to hold up the few who know, by that much, compared to the help to the great majority who won't? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 13:02, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
			:: I personally think that a general article such as libretto should explain more than one on a specific opera or string quartet. If you want to pursue it take it to the article talk page please, as I would advise you to do with any change to the lead section of a featured article. --] (]) 20:39, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
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			I fixed . You can go to "Preferences", go to "User profile" tab, and use <code>&#''124'';</code> to replace <code><nowiki>|</nowiki></code>. --] (]) 09:39, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
			== Reference errors on 22 January ==
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			Me and Mike Peel were thinking about nominating for ]. Do you reckon it's good enough for that? ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 04:19, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
			: If it isn't, it should be. Let's make it so. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 09:32, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
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			== Path Solutions article ==
			We are the owners of Path Solutions.
			Do we need a permission to write about our company, product and awards?
			Thank you for your feedback
			Nadim Saab
			Path Solutions
			Nsaab@path-solutions.com] (]) 08:56, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
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			== Question about conflict of interest ==
			Hi FT2, this is a question about conflict of interest. I am now talking in the abstract. This matter does not involve you and i am asking for impartial feedback. If an Admin takes repeated Administrative action against other editors involved in disputes with a specific editor, and repeatedly comes to the aid of said editor in even petty disputes, and if there is reason to believe that the Admin knows said editor personally, and said Admin refuses to clarify about whether they know said editor on their talk page on the ground that the question was framed in a rude manner, then is this matter serious enough to be raised in ]? Furthermore, is there a possibility of a boomerang on the ] board whereby i could be blocked or indeffed as a result of opening a COIN investigation against said Admin. Thank you. ] (]) 23:04, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
			:@Soham231: ] knows of Sitush's work at Misplaced Pages. That's it—there is no personal friendship or collusion. The reason for what you are seeing is very simple. Over the years, there have been many extremely opiniated drive-by editors who add unsourced or incorrectly sourced POV commentary to articles related to ]. Sitush is known to have a lot of knowledge in the area, as well as access to scholarly sources that are suitable for use at Misplaced Pages. Dealing with the same kind of disruption over and over and over is extremely tedious, and Bishonen got involved simply in an attempt to help minimize the disruption. If necessary, the history could be dredged up: Some background is at ], and the following sections on that page, and recent discussion is ]. If you really want to push the matter further, you need to prepare an evidence page in a sandbox where you show links with explanations of problematic behavior shown at each link. Per ], such an evidence page would have to be constructed and used reasonably quickly (say within two weeks). After that, you would present your evidence either at ] or ], or request that the evidence page be deleted by adding {{tl|db-user}} to it. However, take care because once a community discussion starts, everyone's contributions will be examined, and you may find that the community does not agree with you, and that could lead to further sanctions against you. It's not the people want to be nasty, it's just that there is a limit to how much time and energy can be spent going over and over and over the same old stuff. ] (]) 04:36, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
			{{u|Johnuniq}} I consider it rude on your part to butt in when i have asked a specific query to an Admin. You have succeeded in not allowing my query to be kept abstract, without taking any names, which I very much wanted. Please allow me to engage with an Admin on my own terms as far as my query is concerned. Do not participate in this discussion any further since i am keen to have a one-on-one discussion with Admin FT2 on this issue. Feel free to share your views in detail if this matter is taken up before the community.] (]) 04:52, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
			:Does that mean you are going to disregard what I said? You might like to see my first comment on this issue: ]. My intrusions are standard Misplaced Pages procedure, but you can add diffs of them to your evidence page and ask about them when there is a community discussion. Bear in mind that anyone wanting to understand your comment would take a look at your contributions, so what I wrote does not reveal anything—it is simply getting the issue out in the open. At any rate, FT2 has not been active since 24 October 2016 so you may not get a fast response from him. ] (]) 05:06, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
			I've been insanely busy much of this year, it's true, but in this case it happens I saw the "new messages" note. I'm not aware of the dispute or user names, or where this has been raised, but I would note that if it directly involves Bishonen (whose name appears above), she and I have had past issues and they are best left in the past; you might want to ask someone else with less involvement. Having said that, you asked the question as a general principle (although obviously it directly relates to a specific dispute) so I'll try to help. My comments are injected.
			:* ''If an Admin takes repeated Administrative action against other editors involved in disputes with a specific editor'' - administrators often have to do that, it's completely usual and indeed expected. See ] for this, although you probably know it.
			:* ''...and repeatedly comes to the aid of said editor in even petty disputes...'' - again quite normal (all else being equal). Once you notice a user in one issue, or for one reason, you might also become more aware of them on other issues or watchlist their stuff, either due to interest or because of the perception they might be further issues worth keeping an eye out for. If it's due to bias there are usually other giveaways but merely observing this wouldn't normally be a sign of bias, it's well within normal events
			:* ''...and if there is reason to believe that the Admin knows said editor personally, and said Admin refuses to clarify about whether they know said editor on their talk page on the ground that the question was framed in a rude manner...'' again, taken by itself, just knowing another editor offline is well within normal conduct. Many editors and admins do know each other personally (meetups, friendships that develop, mentorships, things in common). But also many times editors ally with other editors *specifically because* they both have some POV or interest to push in common. Even so, wanting to support someone whose views you agree with (whether or not you know them off wiki) isn't necessarily a problem or a breach of conduct norms, and a question may be perceived as rude or pointed by a reader even if not intended that way by the writer, and may receive a sharp rebuke for that perceived style. For example, you might feel the other editor should be heard or is right but saying it poorly. That said, admins are expected to be willing to explain their Misplaced Pages conduct when it raises concern (whether openly on-wiki, or privately to some suitable uninvolved member of the community if it involves non-public or private information). But that isn't the same as describing their real-world affairs. You might want to mention it's a concern, but you shouldn't usually expect to have any rights or expectations of demanding from another user details of their offline life, even if it might shed light on their edits. The real world just doesn't work that way and we're really just a website of encyclopedia writers. if your wiki evidence convinces others, then they will decide how to handle that anyway. I wouldn't assume anything there especially, because it doesn't help and you don't know.
			So all the things you describe so far *can* have completely normal and innocent meanings, well within community norms. if there is an editor conduct issue, it would have to be determined by directly looking at the messages, the nature of the alleged offline connection, and evidence from diffs and other relevant conduct, probably on some noticeboard. It's best not to "forum shop". ] would be a decent place to start if you want to get views in a sensible place. ] is more for external paid undisclosed editing, self promotion, and so on, which this doesn't sound so much like.
			As for blocking - you shouldn't be blocked (either briefly or indefinitely) just for raising a concern, unless you have a history of previous conduct which has been disruptive (or perceived to be so by one or more uninvolved admins). Blocks tend to be there (and should be there) to deter, not punish. Asking for views in a calm sensible way, and giving your reasons rather than "puffing" up the matter with accusatory hyperbole and "hot speech", should not be an issue. If you have acted poorly yourself, and want to get serious comments but fear a backlash, then I would suggest setting out a summary of what happened (with diff links), what your exact concern is, and ask specifically for an ] admin to advise you whether or not there is a concern there, as they see it, and whether to raise it at RFC or otherwise, or drop it. You're free to follow their advice or not, or to ask for other views, but if you are courteous and not "flaming" or hot headed, and it's clear your interest is to resolve a concern without raising the heat, you are more likely to get some respect for handling it sensibly. If it happens that you try but are goaded by other editors, or get accused in turn, sit calm, people who see your conduct will judge you by it, even if some users try to provoke you to act differently. Ask yourself honestly, what is your actual concern for the Misplaced Pages project, and don't try to ] the debate or assume others agree with you on the evidence and its meaning.
			Hope that helps? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 16:30, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
			Many thanks for your detailed response, FT2. ] (]) 16:54, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
			== About Tanuku Article ==
			Sir can you please check the version history of ] and take necessary action about that vandalism.--] (]) 16:23, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
			== ] Page ==
			I would like to contribute to cleaning up and adding to the entry on Cashless Society. I've cleaned up the main definition, but would like your input about my concerns of the entry's worthiness.
			Honestly, I am bias about this topic and would also like to have my additions checked for neutrality. Thanks. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 22:32, 23 December 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			== Administrators' newsletter - February 2017 ==
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			: ] ]? ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 09:06, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
			:: Like it a lot! Thanks. ] (]) 12:57, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
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			== Your edit of ] mechanism section ==
			You sure that dumping 2 pages of a margin-to-margin text is helpful here? My take is that the article should compromise between brevity and accessibility. In this case, people who are really interested, know the background. So 4 short lines of actual pseudo-code (as was in the original contribution I wrote) was all what was necessary for professionals. One could understand in 10 seconds, I got a fair amount of feedback, it was not my exposition anyway, I simply took and adapted to Misplaced Pages a presentation idea which made ME understand the topic, from Quora. The article grew after my initial (Mechanism) posting, it was kinda OK as the original 4 line exposition was still there, and it was reasonable to give some on-hand explanations. But you removed those 4 lines, and had put a condensed CS lecture instead, with the exploit itself buried in long lines of text, and, frankly, dumbed down by using specific numbers.
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			:FT2, I'm deleting this because it seems redundant but will restore it upon request or you can choose to do this yourself, of course. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:04, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
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			Hi FT2,
			Firstly thank you for the prompt response on pronoun correction for CN.
			Is it possible for you to remove incorrect category tags on their page as well? They are currently listed under the categories https://en.wikipedia.org/Category:British_male_singer-songwriters and 21st century British male singers which is incorrect. I am unfortunately on mobile and a bit of a wiki noob or I would do it myself.
			Cheers! ] (]) 14:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
			Hi FT2, re this also, you note that this had happened before in your edit message. Do you think semi-protection might be appropriate for this page? I'd do it myself but I know CN (very very very vaguely) socially. ] (]) 15:34, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
			:# No need to fix categories, as someone else got there first. But worth knowing, anyone can fix categories. Click the very last edit link, and right at the bottom of the editable text, very last lines usually, you'll see categories, language links etc. Add or delete as needed.
			:# I don't see a need (at this point anyway) for any protection. I checked the history some months back as usual. If it happens again, any time sooon, it'll be hard to see it as anything but deliberate/vandalism, and then we deal with that. Hopefully wont happen. But for now, no, hopefully wont need it, but lets see. It should be clear to an IP editor.
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			How was the complaint delivered? Is there VRT ticket i can reference. --<b>] ]</b> 19:36, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
			:] - no. I have transgender friends, and I got word of mouth via a friend who knows I edit, that the subject of that BLP was wondering if they would have to correct their page regularly, or what to do, and wondered if I had any suggestions. So, without being involved in that social circle otherwise, and without otherwise mentioning it, I took a look and it seemed simple and uncontroversial. So I decided to try and make one BLP subjects future a bit less likely to have it happen again, as the edit shows. I didnt speak to whoever originated it, so I dont know if the complainant was the BLP subject, someone connected to them, or someone who read their social media, or whatever. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 19:46, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
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			== Please change 65 Ma to 66 Ma ==
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			:You can edit this! Anyone can! Please if it needs doing and sources agree, do so, dont feel you need to ask me!
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	::::I guess it comes down to bringing the project into disrepute. There's a relatively strong faction of contributors that see WR as ''bad'', and we've had serious issues of outing there in the past. Given FT2 is in a position of trust within the project, it was only right he told his colleagues what he was planning to do. FT2 has already expressed that he's not going to get involved in any contentious issues over there, and I suspect he'll take a lesser presence than NYB (although I respect Brad has kept his postings collegial throughout and has kept his opinions directed to defending Misplaced Pages). I guess conversing with his fellow arbs was down to an act of respect. ''']<sup>See ] or ]</sup>''' 01:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
			]
	::::: 1/ I generally disclose any issue that might be relevant, if in doubt, and have done so from my earliest days here. It helps avoid problems later. Plus 2/ as Ryan P says. WR is seen in a dim light by many users. It is important to me, to be clear to users who might wonder, and anticipate the question. It cuts down uncertainty and is respectful. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 01:33, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
	::::::That makes total sense. I was just curious, is all, as things are always touchy between the USA and the Soviet Union these days. <font color="0D670D" face="Georgia, Helvetica">]</font> (<font color="#156917">]</font>)(<font color="#156917">]</font>) 01:35, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
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	Hi FT2, I am struck by your post at WP:ARB/GWH, "Comment on civility policy" #3, specifically "we are encyclopedists, not school-children having a squabble". However it is a patent fact that a portion of the editorship here in fact ''are'' school-children. Some are university students, some are high-school students (well, they're young enough that hopefully they are still in school). Combine this now with the additional patent fact that (I think I read this first in one of Guy's comments) "the internet is populated by eggshells armed with sledgehammers", and we have a big problem with defining civility.
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	Young people especially are concerned with pushing all limits and react disproportionately when those limits are brought home to them. I know I did (long ago). We cannot have a milieu such as this wiki where all comers are free to carry on as they will, pursuing any strategem they wish to effect their will, then when someone reacts abruptly after persistent engagement rush off to demand redress for some particular identified "offensive" wording. If someone were to call me an idiot or troll, here or in actual life, I would have one of three responses: if I respected the person, carefully consider whether I was really being an idiot or a troll; if I already knew and did not respect the person, feel silently flattered that they would take time from their life to insult me, and carry on; or if it was a stranger, react cautiously with the aim of getting on with my life and reviewing the situation later.
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	We can't have a situation where everyone must tiptoe about avoiding certain phrasings whilst free to act in a civilly provocative manner or engage in "civil POV-pushing". Sometimes bullshit needs to be called, well, "bullshit". Civility enforcement should be applied to those editors who react inappropriately with incivil language at the outset of a debate, and those who resort to flaming language - not necessarily to those who get frustrated when their points aren't recognized mid-debate and resort to plain language. Admins shouldn't necessarily be asking other admins to review whether they've been treated incivilly either, there's a big danger of self-reinforcement in that procedure. And adults shouldn't be forced to observe the self-absorbed standards of school-children. ] (]) 13:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
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	: I used the expression more as a colloquialism. Some schoolchildren are quite mature and can discuss neutrally and capably, with insight. Some adults in their 20's, 30's and 40's and older come to this site and "act like children". The image I tried to portray was that we should act as sensible "adult" people whose focus is on writing an encyclopedia, rather than the kind of scenes one might (metaphorically) see in a school-yard. It was not a comment about any age related issue.
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	: You're right about certain problems, but those problems can (and routinely do) manifest in the conduct and edits of people of any age, and frequently in the edits of adults every bit as much as any younger person. It's the behavior that needs targeting. Saying "a spade is a spade" is not actually a good guideline for this site. "What best helps the project and reduces issues" is a far better one. ]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">(]&nbsp;|&nbsp;])</span></sup> 13:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
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	:: Calling a spade a spade will often help the project and reduce issues, in my experience. ] (]) 17:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
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Rich Shapero

Hi! Would you mind reviewing your close of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rich Shapero? WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:EVENT describe what types of events are suitable to be the main topic of an article, not what is suitable as article content. Or are you saying that every article should be purged of events that doesn't meet that policy and that guideline, even if they are properly referenced? As far as notability goes the application of the GNG is always somewhat subjective in the disputed cases and I was surprised to see you simply going with your own interpretation over the rather strong consensus. Cheers/ Pax:Vobiscum (talk) 09:27, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Sure. Slightly fully explanation will go on its talk page tomorrow when I'm home, and I'll review it as well to see if I still agree with myself. FT2  11:28, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Deletion review for Rich Shapero

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Rich Shapero. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Alzarian16 (talk) 10:51, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Eh

I'm now seeing the 'Del/undel selected revisions', was the bug fixed? If not, we should probably quickly act to disseminate information about this and caution against using it on log actions subject to breaking per your concerns. –xeno 13:55, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and almost certainly not (I'm CCed on bugzilla for the relevant threads). Going to ask around. FT2  19:46, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:VPT#Activated Single-Revision Deletion. –xeno 19:52, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Update - RevisionDelete has been enabled for admins (as most here know) - but only for one revision per action. The checkboxes that allow revdelete on multiple revisions in one action are disabled for admins.

The underlying bug issue has not yet been fixed. As best I can guess the idea is that limiting RevDel to one revision per action should stand a chance of being workable. Needs testing though.

My tentative conclusion from testing it so far - log links do still break with deletion, in some cases badly, but the damage is mitigated by the fact it's limited to one revision per action. This does make it much easier to figure out and fix any issues, if the problems described were to happen.

I am continuing to test it and check how the issues stand, I will then post a summary on-wiki. FT2  20:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Hrm. Unless I misunderstand you, I think you're incorrect when you say "The checkboxes that allow revdelete on multiple revisions in one action are disabled for admins" This was done by checking off three revisions and using the Del/undel selected button. –xeno 20:39, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Thats odd. I did exactly the same (I think) and it refused to. Werdna said he enabled "single revision delete" too. If you're on IRC can we catch up there to try and figure out together what's going on here? FT2  21:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Hm, I can't get on IRC right now. Maybe later this evening, if my son doesn't monopolize me =) But I was definitely able to hide 3 at once: –xeno 21:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok, /notice or privmsg me or email later then when around. In the meantime I've posted an update at AN to try and mitigate any issues and provide some kind of suggested good practice until we're all more sure what will happen. FT2  22:07, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

You might want to ping NawlinWiki who is deleting revisions like they are going out of style. –xeno 22:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I never got around to IRC, I didn't really have much face time with the PC last night. –xeno 18:05, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I was reading AN and followed the thread to here. When the revDel feature is stable, I'd like to see this page history cleaned up. There are many revs that quite clearly meet WP:CFRD#2 (which is an invalid anchor due to it starting with a digit). It's the work of our most unwelcome vandal and his /b-tards. I started the page and could put you in touch with the founder of the organization (who is shocked at what is in the page history) Thanks, Jack Merridew 02:35, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Main issues on that page fixed now. FT2  23:23, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, that's fine. I know there were issues there and with me that required careful judgment and that is why I brought this to you. Cheers, Jack Merridew 01:49, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

• Any comments on Misplaced Pages talk:REVDEL#"Delete edit comment" → "Delete edit summary" ? –xeno 13:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Mobbing

Penbat has, IMO without regard for the ongoing discussion and apparent current lack of consensus on the Mobbing discussion page, restored his edits with an edit summary and notes on the Talk page that cast my edits as Vandalism. I would greatly appreciate your feedback and/or intervention. Thank you for your assistance. Doniago (talk) 20:29, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I have opened a Wikiquette Alert regarding Penbat's conduct towards me, given that the WP:AN discussion was archived without resolution and Penbat's aggressive behavior towards me has continued. Penbat has been notified. Doniago (talk) 04:48, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I have opened a Wikiquette Alert regarding Doniago's bizarre aggressive timewasting conduct towards me. Doniago's aggressive behavior towards me has continued. Doniago has been notified. --Penbat (talk) 22:58, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Revision hiding on already deleted page

Hi FT2!

Any reason in particular you changed the visibility of a revision that was already deleted? I do not immediately see the usefulness of this, as the page was already only visible to administrators, but perhaps I'm missing something. Regards, decltype (talk) 02:17, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

It made an obnoxious edit summary less "in your face" to a passing admin reader. No ultimate net benefit as you rightly notice and no real net cost. Probably best not done on deleted edits, in case the log bug impacts it, so feel free to reverse the visibility hiding and thanks, on reflection you're right. FT2  02:40, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Since it technically meets RD2 I do not see a need make another log entry just to undo it. I just wondered if there was some profound reasoning behind it. Regards, decltype (talk) 03:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Request for Comment needing your input

Hi, I'd like to ask for your input here: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Minphie. Recently you commented on Minphie's conduct and we ask if you could come and give feedback at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Minphie as the editor appears not to have taken any heed of the community's feedback on his approach to editing. If you don't remember your exact interactions with Minphie, it is detailed in the RfC/U page. Thankyou for your time, --Figs Might Ply (talk) 23:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

paid position?

Mr. Godwin is paid by Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages also presumably pays the water and electric company. Perhaps, CU and oversight could be a paid position. Hire people and bond them. I heard Misplaced Pages had a big budget so hiring one professional checkuser could go far to address the problem. One professional CU working 8 hours a day could probably clear the CU board quickly. Misplaced Pages is in San Francisco. I am sure there are hundreds of computer science graduates from Stanford University and the University of California, Berkeley who might apply for the one full time position.

This is one of many "other" solutions that are possible. Good luck in picking a solution! Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 19:26, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

It's actually been considered. And more than once, rejected. I'm not sure the links, but it's come up a few times. Mainly the issue is that so much of checkuser relies upon knowing your community - like a good police officer is most successful if they are on a "turf" they know very well and can spot stuff that doesn't quite fit. Paid checkusers could manipulate the data but would not as a rule have the knowhow where to go, what it might hint at, what behaviors it might link to, all the dozens of things checkusers as seasoned enwiki admins can draw upon. A second problem is Misplaced Pages is in many languages. So to do this WMF would potentially need to employ many dozens of people in many languages. Finally there is a lot more than one person's work to do. Even full time you'd need several. I guess (but don't know for sure) that these are some reasons it hasn't ever gained traction. It sounds good but fails on practical value. FT2  20:54, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your words of wisdom. An administrator who I regard as wise has taken a wikibreak. In view of your wise answer, I come with another question to you, instead of to him.

Amanda Knox has been deemed not notable enough for an article despite more than a year of extensive international coverage. Other accused murders with far less coverage have been deemed notable for separate articles by AFDs. Futhermore, there are very non-notable people, like Fawaz Abd Al Aziz Al Zahrani, some of whose article have been subject to AFDs, never resulting in delete. Some may want to keep memorials to the Guantanamo Bay prisoners despite WP not being a memorial.

I do not seek drama. Many might say "go ahead and nominate some articles for deletion", but I am more interested in seeking wisdom on how to achieve consistency. Wise editor, FT2, I seek a tiny portion of your wisdom. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 19:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I can give it a go. I can see why the case might seem like a good candidate for an article. There has been a lot of coverage of Knox, over an extended period, from several angles, and the coverage has beyond doubt focused on her as a person not just the murder case she was involved in.

There are two big reasons it's likely to fail. Despite the notoriety and attention, she is still basically only notable for the one event, and WP:BLP1E says we would normally have an article on the event. Sometimes we do have an article on the person as well as the event, but usually that's when we can't cover the person's life with the event, and their whole life becomes worth documenting or such. In this case it's a judgment call but probably still a BLP1E case, what's useful to cover about her purely pertains to the criminal case, its prelude, its aftermath.

Second, especially for criminals (or alleged criminals) we often play a bit cautious in articles. Do we really need an article on the criminal, when most of what's relevant for encyclopedic purposes is covered under the crime. That kind of thing. So yeah, borderline case but if I were forced to choose I would probably side with BLP1E, simply because there is not one thing of wider notice about her, except the one event for which she's in the press and its aftermath. Caveat, I haven't thoroughly researched the matter or the media though. FT2  22:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Your "immediate" proposals

It's starting to look complicated. Is it not possible to simplify? My perennial fear is that people won't bother to think it through unless it's simple. Tony (talk) 13:02, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Good call - better now? FT2  13:24, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Resolution to the problem

Looking throught the comments, if someone were to declare "all the candidates have been appointed", this would not be the consensus. If someone were to declare "some sort of new election", others would be upset, some of them believing that this is an emergency where CU/OS must be appointed within the hour or there will be a massive number of deaths or injury (true emergency).

Choosing either is not selecting the consensus.

When there is no consensus, compromise is sometimes necessary.

Disclaimer: Brainstorming is when one makes suggestions without being afraid of being called an idiot. In doing so, an innovative suggestion may be made. The following is brainstorming.

There could be the declaration that no new CU/OS are appointed. However, the title of "Provisional OS" or "Provisional CU" could be appointed to a limited number of people. The title of "provisional" is to highlight that they are different from the others. They will be under greater public review, have a limited term, and must submit a report of their actions daily (posted on their talk page). In the interim, there will be new elections as a concession to those who say that election rules should not be significantly altered after an election has taken place.

This proposal will be liked by nobody but incorporates ideas of several opinions. Also, it is brainstorming.

This proposal is also among the very few that attempt to reach compromise.

Good luck in trying to find a fair idea that has widespread support. We are cheering you on! Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 16:46, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that in the gentlest way, this doesn't work. You need a better understanding of how CU/OS operates and what these functions do. I'll try to explain.

The ultimate appointing body for this community is Arbcom itself (40% of CU/OS are arbs and another 25-30% are ex-arbs). Arbcom has varied how they are appointed over the years, to encourage wider input while retaining its role of quality control and comfort with the appointees. At present Arbcom chooses to ask the community to express a preference between the users who have indicated an interest and Arbcom would be comfortable to agree as giving access. In this case the problem is that the community has not shown the level of preference set out in the election rules. In other words, Arbcom could as easily have set rules at 50%, 60% or anything else when they announced the election and then it would not have been a problem, but the election was announced with a percentage at 70% so it is.

They are trust positions. It's like "provisionally" giving people keys to private data. There's no provisional - they are trusted enough to view the data, or not. There's no halfway, and no scope for "if we don't like their use, withdraw their access later". Adminship to an extent is "they look okay, no reason not to", because if they do wrong then its incredibly rare any lasting harm will arise. You appoint these tools from the opposite perspective, affirmative trust and knowing if they do wrong then harm may result.

So if "provisional" doesn't make sense, what about extra regulation? Well, the issue here is that these tools aren't under public review, full stop. Rmeoval of privacy based material followed by reposting the private material so everyone can agree nobody should see it, doesn't make sense. Ditto, though less obviously, for Checkuser. These tools aren't public tools and the data they work on isn't public data, so the public will not be able to access the material (like they could with ordinary edits and admin actions) to check it. The regulation for CU/OS is largely by other CU/OS, and Arbcom itself (via its audit subcommittee). That's a Foundation policy and it goes to the extent that you can't appoint just one CU or one OS on any wiki - there must always be 2 or more precisely so they can scrutinize each other's actions.

Extra data for you to take into account in considering your view. Hopefully it will help. FT2  19:24, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. I seek not to argue with you. I seek to find a compromise when the consensus does not exist. Lowering the standard after the election has significant opposition. Not lowering the standard after the election has significant opposition. Brainstorming is a way to find a compromise.

You mention that the positions are a position of trust, more so than admins. Admins generally have to get 80% support. CU/OS are lower at 70%. It seems that using the definition of trust at 70% (not my definition but the election rules), only one person met that definition.

Provisional makes sense because it fulfills the "don't change the rules after an election" people but the "appoint them now" people get their man appointed.

As far as regulation, this makes complete sense. The provisional people would just list the results they made public. For example, FT2 could write on his talk page (if he were a CU), "I published the following CU results....CU results on SSP cases 1, 2, 3." This information is already public, just scattered. This regulation would also try to appeal to those opposed to breaking the election rules by having the appointed provisional people be special appointees.

Can you think of ways to combine the wishes of the "appoint now" versus "don't change the rules to get the election results you want" people? Again, not to argue, but to think of hybird ways to compromise between two opposite views. Note that among the millions of WP users, I am the only one trying to find a compromise solution. Hope others will help try. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 20:12, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Brainstorming's a good thing. I hope it's helpful. I'm not in any sense a "moderator". I've set out a framework and useful guide, so the community can consider what's best. The appointing body has listed people it trusts, asked for a preference from the community, but has set rules that mean everyone got excluded. Logic (to me) says that at this point with the exclusion of the one user who got >70%, there are only 3 options: CU/OS are appointed (two suboptions - we either do or don't ask for more community views on the candidates), or CU/OS are not appointed. All other options including any change to the assessment mechanism (percentage etc) fall into one of these 3 cases.

The percentage at RFA and percentage at CUOS is a very different basis - those at CUOS already got virtually unanimous agreement from all arbitrators (or all who expressed a view) and will have been scrutinized quite deeply as part of that. In that sense a fair representation for the trust for CUOS is probably around 95% at Arbcom (> 90%) - if they get one serious oppose or a couple of minor uncertainties, the answer will often be "not now/not yet", and those views will be based on scrutiny.

But no, provisional doesn't make sense (to me) because I can't see what exactly is (or could be) provisional about it. They are allowed to view WMF data or they are not allowed. If they are okay to view it then why would they stop being trusted later? And with all OS and probably half of CU work being off-wiki, and the half that's on-wiki being clear anyway to anyone who tracks SPI, and the wider community unable to do any kind of checking anyway, what's the point of a partial list of cases? More food for thought. FT2  20:40, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Part of the solution is to acknowledge the opinions of two large groups (and probably some of the subgroups). Throwing out the election or changing the rules after the election so as to elect some does not have the consensus. Neither does a new election (of course, a new election addresses the fairness and ethics issue). So the brainstorming idea is still the only idea to try to compromise. So far you have picked faults with some of the ideas but nobody has suggested a compromise. I wonder why not?

As far as the issue of term limits, arbitrators have a given term. By giving a short term to new CU/OS then trying to resolve the issue, it can't be that bad because that's what arbitrators are given, a term. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 00:24, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Again, I'm thinking that's misguided. We're finding out what response has consensus, so the statements you make about what does and doesn't have consensus are flawed - we're presently finding the community's views. You next ask why nobody suggests a compromise, but I think I've explained the issue is that there are only a very few practical alternatives, the rest (whether compromise or not) collapse into those for this one set of appointments. (See explanation under "Some other option or variation"). Last, the comparison doesn't work either. Arbitrators, appointed for fixed terms (with option to restand), assess disputes, cases and privacy functions of the wider community. CU/OS are toolholders not judicial positions (so to speak). CU's analyzing technical data in one case and OS's remove private/defamatory info in the other. Like admin tools (only more trust needed) once trust is given for a tool, it endures until they cease activity or something changes. Arbs retain CU/OS after arbship terms end for exactly this reason. Last, to repeat my observation above, "provisional" doesn't make sense with CU/OS, nor does a "short term". These are trust based tools. To repeat from above, they are trusted enough to view the data, or not. There's no halfway. I think that's mostly why your arguments aren't making much headway nor gaining much support. The role is different from arbitratorship and the CU/OS tools different from on-wiki public or admin tools. FT2  01:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Part of a compromise is to take equal chunks of several proposals. Usually, few people like it but sometimes more people accept it. Compromise is usually not dictating that one side gets its way. It's usually not taking 99% of one view and 1% of the other views, though often politicians will do that to claim a false compromise. Even I don't like my compromise idea but it's better than imposing my idea on everyone else or some other person's idea on everyone else. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 15:32, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Agree, but in this case it's not clear what proposal might exist that is not seriously flawed compared to the existing ones. It's worth constructing proposals amenable to as many people as possible, but I've looked now at the question of "temporary" or "provisional" for these roles and it doesn't make sense or seem to mean anything. Even the comparison above is plainly incorrect ("arbitrators have fixed terms" - no they don't for the tools). I can only repeat what I said above. The suggestions so far don't work for me. I can't see a way to make them useful to the community, and I see their flaws. I'm not voting on proposals but my comment is, these ideas just wouldn't work. FT2  15:45, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Again, I seek not to argue with you. What I see are drastically different opinions, many of them within the bounds of being reasonable, but difficult to decide without ignoring many opinions. It is easy to declare "I select A as the answer, not B and C, though I've carefully considered B and C (ha, ha B and C lost, tough luck)". It is harder to come up with a compromise taking ideas that are reasonable but that one doesn't like. Try to come up with other compromise ideas! Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 15:52, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I have, however in this case there aren't any with a significant chance that come to mind. Part of the art of a matter like this is to distinguish options that are likely to have a chance of gaining traction and being useful. Sometimes there are several, sometimes one or two, sometimes none, and sometimes only time will change the communal mood to allow actual solutions. A good test here is that almost no credible experienced users are diving in to propose alternatives. As an example, the only option that has (#4) has so far got low levels of interest - 3 responses and all opposed. FT2  16:09, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Does that mean that I am now a FT2 designated "credible experienced user" or that I am not one? Ha, ha, don't answer unless it's a yes! It is too bad that over 200 people voted yet few are offering an ideas, even an oppose or support, to the RFC. Thank you for your effort in drafting the RFC. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 16:46, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

RFC end

Does the RFC have an end date? June 29th? With something of this importance, it is better not to say that it ends when someone says it ends. Otherwise, one could say that it ends when I win and continues if I am losing. Of course, if we say ahead of time that it ends some time after two weeks, then nobody should think that we are short circuiting the time period. So an alternate would be no sooner than June 14th but as long as a month.

I bring this up not to make trouble but to prevent trouble! Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 22:11, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

funny

Berghuis v. Thompkins

After 3 hours of silence to police questions....

Do you believe in God? Yes

Do you pray to God to forgive you for killing John Smith? Yes, oops.

That is like...

In the court room: The People of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts versus John Smith. Charged with 2 murders (error in speaking) in the first degree.

Two? I only killed one guy! Oops! Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 22:57, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

i suppose i am the only one laughing.....  :( Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 20:21, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

DYK

I replied to your comments. Joe Chill (talk) 15:26, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I hope that you don't expect me or someone else to fix your cites. I won't and that's being lazy. Joe Chill (talk) 23:10, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't "expect" any given person to. My focus in editing was on identifying whether the section was written from a neutral point of view - which directly affects whether readers will get a balanced representation of the topic. The cites went in there quickly with the view that I'll fix them if time permits (if not they'll eventually be put into proper "cite web" format). But the NPOV matter was more urgent. Given your request for a DYK hook on the article, the existence of poor flow, tone, a few sentences needing improvement, and the like, needed fixing much more quickly, so I did.

However, not to worry. Just 21 minutes later another user fixed the cites . Isn't collaboration great :) FT2  23:31, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

What you call poor flow and a few sentences needing fixing is personal taste. I like what you did with the article, I'm just saying that isn't even close to a major issue. Joe Chill (talk) 00:16, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Plip!

For adding non-formatted references. This should really be a trout but I'm in a good mood. Mjroots (talk) 16:49, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Peter Damian

Hi FT, I emailed you a few weeks ago to let you know as a matter of courtesy that I was considering requesting an unblock for Peter, and again tonight to tell you that I was about to post it. You can see it here on AN. I'm letting you know here too just to make sure you see it. Cheers, SlimVirgin 09:13, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. I've moved it into chronological place because it looked as though the supports might be supporting those additional points. SlimVirgin 10:08, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

That makes sense, sure. Hopefully they are factual enough to be useful. I've added a sample diff so you can see what I mean. Can you ask him to explicitly confirm on the stated behaviors as part of this? Thanks. FT2  10:12, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

He agreed to avoid interaction, and I'm sure that will be broadly interpreted, because lots of people will be keeping an eye on it. SlimVirgin 10:15, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change

Extended content

An Arbitration request in which you are involved has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Workshop. Additionally, please note that for this case specific procedural guidelines have been stipulated; if you have any questions please ask. The full outline is listed on the Evidence and Workshop pages, but please adhere to the basics: The issues raised in the "Sock Puppet Standards of Evidence" and "Stephen Schultz and Lar" requests may be raised and addressed in evidence in this case if (but only if) they have not been resolved by other means. Preparation of a formal list of "parties to the case" will not be required. Within five days from the opening of the case, participants are asked to provide a listing of the sub-issues that they believe should be addressed in the committee's decision. This should be done in a section of the Workshop page designated for that purpose. Each issue should be set forth as a one-sentence, neutrally worded question—for example: "Should User:X be sanctioned for tendentious editing on Article:Y"? "Has User:Foo made personal attacks on editors of Article:Z?" "Did Administrator:Bar violate the ABC policy on (date)?" "Should the current community probation on Global Warming articles by modified by (suggested change)?" The committee will not be obliged to address all the identified sub-issues in its decision, but having the questions identified should help focus the evidence and workshop proposals. All evidence should be posted within 15 days from the opening of the case. The drafters will seek to move the case to arbitrator workshop proposals and/or a proposed decision within a reasonable time thereafter, bearing in mind the need for the committee to examine what will presumably be a very considerable body of evidence. Participants are urgently requested to keep their evidence and workshop proposals as concise as reasonably possible. The length limitation on evidence submissions is to be enforced in a flexible manner to maximize the value of each user's evidence to the arbitrators. Users who submit overlength diatribes or repetitious presentations will be asked by the clerks to pare them. On the other hand, the word limit should preferably not be enforced in a way that hampers the reader's ability to evaluate the evidence. All participants are expected to abide by the general guideline for Conduct on arbitration pages, which states: Incivility, personal attacks, and strident rhetoric should be avoided in Arbitration as in all other areas of Misplaced Pages. Until this case is decided, the existing community sanctions and procedures for Climate change and Global warming articles remain in full effect, and editors on these articles are expected to be on their best behavior. Any arbitrator, clerk, or other uninvolved administrator is authorized to block, page-ban, or otherwise appropriately sanction any participant in this case whose conduct on the case pages departs repeatedly or severely from appropriate standards of decorum. Except in truly egregious cases, a warning will first be given with a citation to this notice. (Hopefully, it will never be necessary to invoke this paragraph.) On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, ~ Amory (u • t • c) 00:35, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up - collapsed this as it's lengthy though. FT2  19:05, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Sub-issues questions

Hey - I removed your proposed issues as they were not phrased as "one-sentence questions." Please feel free to rephrase them into questions, or contribute your thoughts elsewhere on the workshop page. Thank you. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 12:28, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Missed that bit . Okay! FT2  16:05, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, FT2. You have new messages at Talk:Berghuis v. Thompkins/GA1.
Message added 16:38, 15 June 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Berghuis v. Thompkins GAN

Congratulations, I have listed Berghuis v. Thompkins as a Good Article. Please consider reviewing a nominee for Good Article. Regards, GregJackP (talk) 19:06, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Keegscee Sock #I Lost Count

User:TubingTommy posted on Keegscee's SPI, claims to be Keegscee. I have asked User:Georgewilliamherbert who has been wranglin' the socks of Keegscee previously to get with a checkuser and flush out the other ones and rangeblock, but he appears to be offline for the moment, hence I bring this to your attention. -

Taken care of by Georgewilliamherbert. Take Care. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 00:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

REVDEL multiple revisions at once?

Forgive me if I've missed an announcement somewhere, but is it still best to avoid using Revision Delete on multiple revisions at once or has that bug been fixed? I can see you've had this and related conversations more than once, but I'm not an admin so some of it still escapes me. VernoWhitney (talk) 14:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes and thanks for checking. The bug's half fixed, ie, the basic functionality is there. Werdna's working on the other half but (with Pending Changes being released) could be another week or a bit more. May be okay but until tested can't be sure. FT2  18:11, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Berghuis v. Thompkins

Hello, I've had a look at your DYK nom for this article. I've only started reviewing DYKs (so I could be wrong!) but on first inspection it seems to fall short of 5 x expansion if you want to have a look at it. GainLine ♠ _♥ 15:31, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Skidmore, Owings and Merrill

You deleted an article which should be restored:

• 02:51, 22 May 2010 FT2 (talk | contribs) deleted "John O. Merrill" ‎ (A7: No explanation of the subject's significance (real person, animal, organization, or web content): Essentially "Was a partner in a big firm". Would need more reason to sustain an article.)

Your decision-making in this instance was flawed. The fact that Britannica considers this figure sufficiently important to include in its online encyclopedia for children is sufficient argument for the article to be restored -- see here.

Please do what you can to rectify this unfortunate mistake.

When restored, you may trust that I will add material sufficient to clarify its legitimate status as an article.

Thank you. --Tenmei (talk) 21:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

A note at User talk: زرشک#Speedy deletion nomination of John O. Merrill suggests that it may be more conventional for me to ask you to "userfy" what was deleted?

John Ogden Merrill (b St Paul, Minnesota, 10 August 1896— d Chicago, Illinois, 13 June 1975) was an structural engineer and founding partner of the architectural firm of Skidmore, Owings and Merrill (SOM).<:ref name="wilson">Museum of Modern Art (MOMA): SOM citing Richard Guy Wilson (2009). Grove Art Online, Oxford University Press.</ref>

Merrill's notability

Merrill's contribution to the firm was seminal. He is credited with establishing the multi-disciplinary nature of the firm.

SOM defined a new architectural approach of team work and total or comprehensive design, since the firm undertook everything: design, engineering, landscaping, urban planning and interiors. Also an innovation, especially given the quality of work and the prominence of the firm, was that none of the founding partners actually designed.

The unique character of SOM’s work was influenced by the engineers who became partners in the practice.<:ref name="wilson"/>

The bottom line—this person is an appropriate and necessary subject for an article in our Misplaced Pages context. --Tenmei (talk) 02:01, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd be glad to let you have a copy of the page text. I've sent it by email to you.

In terms of suitability for an article, as I understand it, Merrill's "claim to notice" is due to the company (work done by SOM, size of SOM, etc), and also because of the important changes he made to that company. Is that roughly correct? FT2  10:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I do not know the answers, but I will undertake to find them.

Let me explain why I developed the article about Nathaniel Owings, who is the "O' in Skidmore, Owings and Merrill.

I was invited for tea at the home of one of the hibakusha whose career as an interior designer had been entirely at SOM. In September 2008, I created the article here as a token gift to offer my hostess at tea. In 2010, it is only an accidental oversight that Talk:Skidmore, Owings and Merrill is still on my watchlist in 2010; but there you have it.

The projected "stub" or "start" which results from my small investment of time will become another gift I bring to tea. I have no continuing interest in John O. Merrill beyond what is needed to rebut the rationale which informs this speedy delete. --Tenmei (talk) 13:52, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Please userfy Talk:John O. Merrill. --Tenmei (talk) 14:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I've restored both current and previous versions for you - see here. FT2  15:04, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

John O. Merrill

John O. Merrill is not an appropriate article for the speedy deletion process. --Tenmei (talk) 23:53, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Justification

The burden of research supports the notability of John O. Merrill; and the following is sufficient to rebut any "speedy deletion" argument. In summary, the notability of John O. Merrill is verified by reliable sources: (a) the obit in the New York Times, (b) the article in the Grove Art Online, (c) the article in the American National Biography and (d) WorldCat Identities ... plus (e) the previously mentioned but unused article in the Britannica online.

Notes

^ a b c d e f g h "John Merrill Sr., Architect, Dead," New York Times. June 13, 1975.

^ a b Museum of Modern Art (MOMA): SOM citing Richard Guy Wilson (2009). Grove Art Online, Oxford University Press.

^ "Merrill, John Ogden," (1999). American National Biography, Vol. 15, pp. 360-361.

^ a b c d Lehman College Art Gallery, Skidmore, Owings and Merrill (SOM), Merrill bio notes

^ Westcott, Ed. (2005). Oak Ridge, p. 61., p. 61, at Google Books

^ Nauman, Robert Allen. (2004). On the Wings of Modernism: the United States Air Force Academy, pp. 72-80., p. 72, at Google Books

^ Wilkes, Joseph A. and Robert T. Packard. (1989). Encyclopedia of Architecture: Design, Engineering & Construction, Vol. 4. p. 454.

^ "Radical Design Dropped For Air Academy Chapel," New York Times. July 4, 1955.

^ "Residential Work Rising in Chicago," New York Times. February 14, 1937.

^ "Name Consultants for Building Code," New York Times. March 26, 1950.

^ American Institute of Architects Historical Directory, Merrill, ahd1030138

^ a b WorldCat Identities: Merrill, John O.

References

• Nauman, Robert Allen. (2004). On the Wings of Modernism: the United States Air Force Academy. Urbana: University of Illinois Press. 10-ISBN 0252028910/13-ISBN 9780252028915; OCLC 52542599
• Westcott, Ed. (2005). Oak Ridge. Charleston, South Carolina: Arcadia Publishing. 10-ISBN 0738541702; 13-ISBN 9780738541709; OCLC 62511041
• Wilkes, Joseph A. and Robert T. Packard. (1989). Encyclopedia of Architecture: Design, Engineering & Construction. New York: John Wiley. 10-ISBN 0471633518/13-ISBN 9780471633518; OCLC 300305038

The article text explains that John O. Merrill is

1. Notable for design and development of the US Air Force Academy campus; and he provided on-site architect construction oversight for the project in Colorado Springs, Colorado
2. Notable for design and development of the Manhattan Project research campus; and he provided on-site architect construction oversight for the project and for the new community which was created at Oak Ridge, Tennessee
3. Notable for design, development and construction of the permanent US military facilities on Okinawa, including the still controversial Kadena Air Force Base
4. Notable as a founding partner of the prominent international architectural firm, Skidmore, Owings and Merrill (SOM); and also notable for his seminal influence on development of unique SOM corporate culture

Thanks. I would agree. Notice that it isn't a matter of personalities or defensiveness. The issue was evidence. before there wasn't. Now there is. Specifically, an NY Times obit is enough to suggest notability all on its own.

Be aware that the claim "Built notable project X so must be notable" or "Founded notable firm X so must be notable" generally fails due to WP:NOTINHERITED (the X might be notable but it doesn't demonstrate those involved in its creation are). To put it simply, architects design and help built things, the same way accountants count things and help run businesses, and writers write things. Its the daily work of all architects to design and built things.

The key here is evidence he himself was notable, not that he built notable things. The single NY Times obit by itself is enough to show that. A career that included building some big military objects (putting it crudely) by itself does not.

I put it crudely, not to offend, but to explain in very basic terms, the distinction and significance. FT2  00:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I've got the full obit from NYT, if you want to use it for source material. Its not copyright free or fair use though, so I can't put it on wiki. if you want it by email, please email me and I'll send it to you. FT2  01:08, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your offer, but that won't be necessary. I have full online Times access. One question remains: What next? May I now post John O. Merrill in main space? --Tenmei (talk) 01:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

If you want to write it in user space I'll be glad to cast an eye over it and see what cleanup may be useful. It might help.

Update - left a few review points here. Those aside and a bit of minor copyediting, it looks okay to go.FT2  02:20, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Berghuis v. Thompkins

On June 21, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Berghuis v. Thompkins, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

— Rlevse • Talk • 18:03, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

bugzilla:21312 (revision move) is listed as 'resolved fixed'...

...so I guess we should have a community discussion on whether we want it enabled here? –xeno 12:45, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Would be nice to see how it works, and noting also it's still marked "experimental". I've asked if it's enabled on any WMF test wiki. It would be good to see it in action, not least to be able to explain and screenshot it (and point others to where it can be tested) for any possible discussion. FT2  12:49, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Probably need to file a quick 'zilla to get it enabled on testwiki:. –xeno 12:51, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

bugzilla:24158. –xeno 14:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Done, and got there first. (bugzilla:24157). One or the other's a duplicate :) FT2  14:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

lol. –xeno 14:30, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Left it to you to strike one out. I could just see the scenario happening where we both did that, too :) FT2  14:32, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

ha! Go ahead and request sysop on testwiki while we wait: testwiki:WP:RQ#Requests for Adminship/Bureaucratship. –xeno 14:33, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

← In case you haven't been keeping up on the bugzilla'en, we're currently awaiting a code review for the RevisionMove so that it can be enabled on the WMF branch (or something...). –xeno 15:46, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Climate change moving to Workshop

This Arbitration case is now moving into the Workshop phase. Please read Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration#Workshop to understand the process. Editors should avoid adding to their evidence sections outside of slight tweaks to aid in understanding; large-scale additions should not be made. Many proposals have already been made and there has already been extensive discussion on them, so please keep the Arbitrators' procedures in mind, namely to keep "workshop proposals as concise as reasonably possible." Workshop proposals should be relevant and based on already provided evidence; evidence masquerading as proposals will likely be ignored. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 20:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Opinion for a requested move of WP:Ownership of articles

Hello! I have requested a move for WP:Ownership of articles → WP:Page ownership. As you participated in the previous discussion, could you please voice your opinion again regarding this move, as it is my intention to restart the discussion with a clean slate. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 23:02, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - posted. FT2  23:44, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Note

I have mentioned you at Misplaced Pages:Bureaucrats' noticeboard and User talk:Nihonjoe. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:40, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, would not have been aware otherwise. Posted at both. FT2  18:32, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The last point was addressing both points 3 and 4 (which were synonymous in that they were dealing with questionable/good standing). I'll ping you (before the week ends) when I've looked at it properly. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:08, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I've responded at the policy talk. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:12, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Frank Mangano

Hello, I appreciate your comments and criticisms. I know more work needs to be done here, unfortunately, my schedule does not permit me to respond immediately to this. My intent is to continue the make improvement to this BLP however, I have become swamped with work assignments. Can we keep the bulk of the content in my user space? I will not move into article space without significant improvement as I find it, nor will I move it without review. All that I have done has been in the open, I have not deleted anyone's comments. I would really hate to start over though. Thank you! (User talk:Lisa Snead)) Cre8tivedge 19:04, 30 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cre8tivedge (talk • contribs)

Sure - restored the June 18, 2010 11:57 version (latest) for you at User:Cre8tivedge/Frank Mangano. Best! FT2  20:27, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you so much for returning this to my user space. I do see where significant changes need to be made and your statements are fair and clear! Thanks again!

User talk:Lisa SneadCre8tivedge 18:00, 5 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cre8tivedge (talk • contribs)

RFC is closed

Hi, just a note to let you know that the RFC discussion you started has closed "Immediate steps" poll by FT2 and is in need of assesment and the next step, whatever that is to be, regards. Off2riorob (talk) 23:05, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Just to note I sent you email; hopefully things make more sense. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Article on Administrator abuse

Thanks for your comments. That topic is stuck in my throat and I could write pages and pages about it. Luckily for you, I am rather busy with real-life work so I will just blurt out a few disconnected thoughts.

Extended content

I did not start the article, and I even agree that, ordinarily, it would not be a suitable topic --- not for lack of "notability" (a criterion which I donot recognize as valid) but simply because I think its is very poor taste for an encyclopedia to have more than one article about itself. However, having read through several megabytes (literally) of talk on the topicof admin abuse, which never went anywhere, I saw that article as a unique opportunity to have a *productive* analysis of that topic. Being in Article space, rather than Misplaced Pages:* or Talk:*, would force the text to be organized, non-redundant, impersonal, neutral, limited to verifiable facts, etc. etc.. Alas, we lost that opportunity. As I had observed in the article's lead, "administrator abuse" is usually meant in the broad sense, including abusive behavior by non-sysop editors who perform substantial administrative work --- like tagging, posting on the AfD, writing rules, operating robots, etc.. The brader interpretation seems to make the discussion of "admin abuse" more useful. Given the obvious "conflict of interest", I would have expected admins to be extra cautious in their edits to that article. Instead, they not only promptly listed the article on the AfD, but even closed the AfD before its normal 7-day period was over. There are many more reputable references on that topic besides those listed. The sources call it by various names or may just imply it indirectly, e.g. when discussing conflict resolution and elitism. Thus, finding such referentes takes work. The article was deleted even as I was editing it. Note that most editors --- those who wrote the 3 million articles --- have limited free time, and may take weeks to see challenges and respond to them. That is why, in the good old days, editors who challenged some statement in an article were supposed to edit it out and explain their concern on the talk page. But of course deleting is much easier and definitive. "I did a Google search and nothing turned up, so I deleted the article", "The article has been up for 3 days and it still has no references, so I deleted it" --- those are precisely examples of admin abuse that the article was about. Independently of what the media says, admin abuse is real, widespread, and is doing terrible damage to Misplaced Pages. Sadly admins seem quite blind to the problem. They claim to be merely enforcing the law according to well established procedures --- without realizing that the laws and the procedures themselves are part of the abuse. (And the world outside *is* taking notice. The blog drivel pieces are just the leading edge of the wave. In a few minutes of googling I found several scholarly papers criticising the Misplaced Pages decision-making, admin promotion, and conflict resolution processes, and even a masters thesis.) Take the notability rule, for instance. It s labeled as "consensus" by those who apply it --- but in reality it was created by a handful of deletionists (less than 1% of the total pool of editors), apparently admins in their most part; and became "law" simply because those people started enforcing it --- and deleting an article is not only definitive, but so much easier than writing one. Or take the AfD. Who decided that deletion discussions should be carried out in a central board, rather than on the article's talk page? Which class of editors finds that arrangement more convenient? Who are the people most likely to have the AfD on their watchlist? Who has the time and motivation to vote for the deletion of other people's articles? Who decided that AfD discussions should be limited to 7 days? Why? Who makes the final decision? Why can't ordinary editors undo deletions, like any other edits? And, finally, who gave those people the right to define those rules? I have been editing Misplaced Pages since 2004 or so, and to me it is absolutely clear that the attitude and behavior of adminis has changed for the worse --- much worse --- since 2006. At first I thought it was just me burning out. Then I noticed that lots of other editors were just as pissed off as me about article deletions, disparaging tags, robot edits, idiotic standards, and the like. As time passed I ran into more and more report and examples of abuse, against me and others. For instance, last year I had the curiosity to check how the "unref" taging policy had been decided upon. I found out that 30 people (who had been involved in the tag's design) voted it on an obscure talk page. The "consensus" option was voted by only 10 of them. Nevertheless, those admins who wanted the tag started inserting it on thousands of articles with the help of robots. Then the fashion caught on, and dozens of other stupid article-side tags appeared; I bet thay did not even bother to held a poll at all. So all those tags ou there --- perhaps half a million or more --- were never a "consensus", in any conceivable sense of the word. They stuck only because deleting them is far more work than putting them in, and because the admins who created them also declared that their removal by ordinary editors would be considered vandalism and punished as such. If that is not "administrator abuse", then what is? Last year I also did an analysis of the growth of wikipedia from 2001 to 2009. To my dismay, I found out that the "slowdown" in article creation since 2006 was actually due to a steady loss of editors --- a striking contrast to the exponential growth until 2005. It seems that since 2006 hardly any new editors have been recruited, and old timers are steadily leaving. This alarming pheonomenon had been noted already by people at Xerox PARC,but strangely no one in Misplaced Pages seems to have paid attention to it. I had many other other eye-opening experiences since then. Early this year I wasted several days reading and voting the Unsourced BLP RfC, which, from start to finish, was one of the grossest examples of institutionalized admin abuse ever. An old article of mine was deleted over the year-end holidays (the AfD debate ran between 2009-12-27 and 2010-01-02, to be precise) on totally bogus claims of "original research" and bungled Google searches. Needless to say that I did not have a chance to rebate the claims. I managed to have the article restored as a draft under my User page, but then had to be away from Misplaced Pages for a couple of months. When I returned I found that it had been deleted again --- from my User: draft space! The admin's explanation? "That's simply too long a period of time." Well, who decided that? And why is "their" opinion more authoritative than mine? The root of the problem is that Misplaced Pages has no decent decision-making or voting mechanism that would prevent administrator abuse. All the talk about "consensus" stuff is crap; that is a meaningless buzzword, a pile of sand where Jimbo and the Foundation bury their head whenever the issue of governance comes up. The only thing that can be said about Misplaced Pages's governance is that is neither a democracy nor a dictatorship, nor anything in between; its basically anarchy. Misplaced Pages admins behave like like a rogue motorcycle gang: any admin can do basically anything he wants, as long as he does not step over the toes of his fellow admins; and these will automatically tend to side with him on any dispute with non-admins. It is written in several places in WIkipedia:* that its "rules" do not create rights and obligations for admins, but merely describe what they are used to doing. I have even found two cases where an admin did something against the rules, and then edited the rules to make that thing legal a posteriori. (In one of the incidents, and perhaps both, attention was called to the fact only because it pissed off another admn. Had the abuse been made against a common user, no one would have noticed or cared.) But since rules *are* supposed to be descriptive rather than prescriptive, neither incident was technically an abuse, so the matter rested there. In any organization, those who write the rules are inevitably tempted to twist them so as to give themselves more power. Lacking a firm constituion and with an assumed disdain for democracy, Misplaced Pages has let admins free rein to do so. The old rules that prevented admins from abusing their powers, and from imposing their opinion on non-admins, have been largely removed over the last few years. And since the ability to delete articles is the epitome of and admininistrator's power, more power meant more freedom to delete. That is why Misplaced Pages post-2006 has become the den of a few hundred rabid deletionists; and why tens of thousands of editors like me, who like to write rather than delete, are being made to feel like villains.

Well, sorry for this long rant. All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 01:36, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Markup

Hi, Sorry if I'm troubling you, but, I was trying to put an email link on my page, or find how to email another user when they don't have a link, and I saw the link on your page, and I just wanted to ask how you put it there. I will be truely thankful if you can answer me. Zarin87 (talk) 04:38, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Antigrandiose

I saw you'd posted to Antigrandiose (talk · contribs)'s talk page. I'm bothered by the way he not only uses his userspace as facebook/myspace, but also copies into it other people's posts. Worth taking to MfD do you think? Dougweller (talk) 20:25, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Dealing with this. Done. FT2  23:41, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks very much. I see User:Antigrandiose is tagged for MfD but not in the MfD - and not only is he using it as Myspace, but as I said, he's copying other people's posts into it, eg from here - should this be of any concern? And bits of other articles, templates, etc which has ended up with his userpage having article categories. Dougweller (talk) 05:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I didn't MFD that one, someone else did. This 2nd MFD is probably what you're missing. If the snips of other people's posts are an actual problem (laundry list or suggesting they are biased or idiotic etc in the context of his other templates or anything) then that's probably best dealt with by mentioning at that MFD, or dropping him a brief note that that we don't (or shouldn't) "knock" other editors that way and please desist. FT2  11:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Wow...

... You didn't even give me a chance to respond to your inaccurate "quick corrections." You'd rather just delete something than risk being shown wrong. I'm left with the feeling that I was waylayed, by two or three people, who had a problem with my page that was far out of proportion to the problem that other editors and administrators had/would have had with it. --Antigrandiose (talk) 20:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Like your post here at MFD, this is fairly inaccurate.

Your page contained genital closeups, sexual innuendo, and repeated sexual posts. Your posts included inappropriate edits like this, edits that claimed a term you added was taken from a source that in fact was your own interpretation like this, inappropriate incivility like this, interface-hiding CSS, and posting fake "bot" warnings to an IP user that their editing would be "monitored" and to "stay off nakedlittleboys.com" like this (in apparent retaliation for removing your sexual gallery ). The times your editing was appropriate were also equally noted. You had a bunch of warnings by other users and ignored them. You were told the content was unsuitable some weeks ago and ignored that too, promptly recreating a bunch more sexual related content instead.

You'll notice in fact I didn't "just delete". Far from it. I removed the disruptive CSS style in the one HTML code it was a problem (not affecting the displayed content but fixing the layout), de-linked a number of userboxes showing sexual content (but did not delete the actual userboxes themselves), and asked the community to spend a week discussing whether the rest should be kept or removed as is our norm.

I suggest a quick read of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT which may give guidance on when this kind of thing can become disruptive. I notice someone else suggested you use a humor site for your humor posts. As many people have told you, this is an encyclopedia and an encyclopedia-writing community. We have norms. You have simply been asked, again, to ensure you follow them. FT2  22:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Microformats

You recently !voted on Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Microformats. This is a courtesy note to let you now that I have now posted, as promised, my view there, and to ask you revisit the debate. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 14:52, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Third opinion

Hi FT2. I closed a RfC today - Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Request_for_Comment_on_Fox_News_Channel. The close has been disputed - User_talk:SilkTork#RfC_close_on_Wikipedia:Reliable_sources.2FNoticeboard. Would you take a look at it to give your view and hopefully resolve the matter one way or the other. SilkTork * 00:56, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Attention and participation

As you expressed this concern at an earlier date, I think your attention and participation is invited here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:47, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Anoneditwarning

As a long time IP editor, I'd like to know if there was any discussion before you changed the coloring of the text. As it stands, it's overbearing, distracting, and is alreading causing a bit of eye strain. Any chance I can get you to change it back, or at least to something with a bit less contrast? I really understand the desire to grab attention, but this is a bit over the top. 69.181.249.92 (talk) 07:33, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

One could probably split the difference and only highlight the first of the two sentences. Would that be better? Or in the alternative, maybe black text on a soft color background would accomplish the same purpose of highlighting the box without causing eyestrain? Dragons flight (talk) 09:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I like the second option - it draws attention without inducing panic for the casual editor and the need for filtered glasses for established ones. Tan would be a nice neutral colour but I'm not particular about it. And thanks.69.181.249.92 (talk) 10:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Flying humanoid

Hello. I am the original creator of the article Flying humanoid, which you deleted in May 2008. Could you possibly restore the article in my userspace so that I can improve the sourcing? --Uga Man (talk) 21:41, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Replied on your talk page. FT2  17:21, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

WP:BLANKING misinterpretation after March 2010 re-write?

FYI –xeno 16:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Replied on that page. FT2  17:22, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

RFC on vandalism sandboxes

As someone who previously participated in the discussion to adopt policy verbiage that is being used as a rationale to delete "vandalism sandboxes", your input would be appreciated on the matter: Misplaced Pages talk:User pages#Userspace Vandalism Sandboxes. Gigs (talk) 15:08, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Clean Start

I saw that you created the new 'Clean Start' policy page. I have a question about that policy, and don't know where to ask it, so I there I'd start with you. There is a "new" user whom I suspect is a returning user trying to make a clean start. The previous account has not been banned or sanctioned as far as I can tell, but had been blocked, more than once, for various violations (edit warring, harassment). It has been retired (not active for 1+ year, 'retired' box on the user page), but the "new" account is editing in the same topic area (which is a highly volatile one on Misplaced Pages), and making contentious edits (e.g. - blanket revert of several days worth of edits , undoing 20+ edits by 4 editors). This appears to be in clear violation of WP:CLEAN START, which says 'a user who then re-enters disputes and topics where their conduct was likely to be noticed (blocks, disputes, disruptive editing, contentious and edit warred topics, and the like) may be seen as evading scrutiny'. The question is what can be done about this? I am not sure a sock puppet investigation is the right way, because technically, I am not sure if this is sock puppetry. HupHollandHup (talk) 14:59, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Without knowing more, or knowing the situation, see if this helps.

The ability to start again is open to almost anyone, and trying to start again is usually fine. The main thing is that people may need to know about someone's track record to assess (for example) how to handle concerns over their behavior or edits. For example, you might expect to handle a genuine newcomer differently than someone who's been round months, had warnings, and "knows the ropes". So this is more about clarity and transparency. If their editing is a concern you probably have a fair right to check if they are the same person returning.

On the face of it, it wouldn't be "sock puppetry" (even though covered in the same policy) because you haven't suggested that they run multiple accounts at the same time, shut down one account then promptly restarted with another, etc. Your best bet is to look carefully at the evidence - do their edits look the same, is there evidence you could show other editors from their edits or other contributions? Or is it purely a complete guess?

If there is no evidence, then best take them at face value as a new user. If there is some evidence to suggest they are the same person your best bet is to be non-contentious. Ask them by email or on their talk page, something like "I notice your editing reminds me of a user who once edited these pages, are you new here?". Emphasize that you are not seeking to "do" anything nor saying anything's wrong, but as it's a contentious topic and their editing suggests they might be a returning user to the area, you would like to know if they are a genuine new user or a returning "old hand". Don't threaten or accuse, be open, friendly, and ask. Make clear that it's mainly so you know what level of knowledge to assume (for example).

If you still aren't happy with the response, explain that it's important if they are a returning user with "history" in that discussion they need to disclose it. Again cite the policy more so they can check the position (ie to help them) and not as a "weapon" or to attack them. Then see what happens. Ultimately if there is evidence in their behavior and they persistently deny it, and their conduct were disruptive or a problem, then you would need to raise it on the talk page of that topic (is probably best) to ask other editors of that topic to comment on your concern and the evidence.

But bear in mind this may be a user who has done nothing wrong at all, could be a newcomer, and be civil, courteous, inform them the concern/question/issue, but assume good faith in your approach. If you have no evidence then think twice whether you have any basis to say anything. If there is good evidence and you can't sort it out by private dialog, then raise it with co-editors, again in a civil manner.

Hope this helps. FT2  15:42, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, FT. There is very strong evidence (in my opinion), otherwise I wouldn't bring it up. The evidence comprises behavioral similarity (editing the same set of articles, from the same POV, often repeating similar arguments, and apparent familiarity and "history" with other long-term editors), identical language quirks (both users are self-admitted non-native English speakers, as well as technical (limited to what a non check-user like myself could gather) which point to the same geographical area and the same ISP. I believe the evidence is strong enough that a CU request would be granted. I could e-mail you the evidence in private if you'd like. HupHollandHup (talk) 16:11, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Sensible to ask. Would be fine to look at it for you and give suggestions. Email's good. FT2  16:35, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I've sent you some material. (there's more, as in the course of putting this together i discovered that the old account had actually used more than one account (they are linked by the user himself, but I didn't have the time to go over all the other old accounts' contributions- but did find some that link all three). fee free to discuss this over email if you think there are privacy issues. HupHollandHup (talk) 18:43, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

You have a reply by email. FT2  22:12, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate it. I wish no adverse consequences for the user - merely that he truly starts afresh, by avoiding the contentious area he was previously involved in. HupHollandHup (talk) 23:26, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

heh

You're really stretching the definition of "nutshell" there! (must be a walnut or coconut) –xeno 13:23, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

It needs dividing into a nutshell v. intro (you'll notice there is no intro so far!). Haven't finished yet. Want to help? :) FT2  13:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll go over it once you're done ;p –xeno 13:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Have a go. FT2  13:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll need some time for the page to percolate, but at first blush what I noticed was "various pages or discussions related to your conduct that will cease to be relevant to the project " is given greater emphasis than it was in the former, where it was a bit of a throwaway mention ("other pages which affect them alone"). And this was not your doing, but I've just noticed the "Replacing references to the former username with references to the replacement username," <-- I'm not sure if this is meant to refer to signatures, but going through replacing signatures en masse seems to be counter intuitive, no? –xeno 14:04, 4 October 2010 (UTC) Looks like you pre-empted that last bit =)

That first one is deliberate. A common critisicm (and source of confusion/upset/misunderstanding/dispute) over right to vanish is the extent to which "vanishing" happens and what it provides. Some users believe it provides anonymity, removes their contributions, removes all discussions they were in, removes all sections and pages where they were adversely mentioned (eg on others' talk pages). So this rewrite makes a lot clearer what exactly is done. The pages and sections that are usually deleted or blanked in RTV are those where the user's conduct is the topic of discussion - SPI, ANI sections, RFC, RFAR, etc. We also may delete if asked, their user and talk pages. It's making clear what expectation a user should have, to prevent people coming to RTV with incorrect beliefs about what can and will be done, and equally to prevent gamers seeing RTV as a means to remove everything and requesting RTV as a way to bypass a bad record, when in fact we never have removed "everything". Being explicit on what is actually done for "vanishing", preventing unrealistic expectations or belief in loopholes, and making clear it's for permanent departure only, are key points that were not so clear before (or could be read favorably by a gamer). FT2  14:17, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Does it remove (archived) ANI sections? I've never seen that... –xeno 14:20, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

No reason why not, in principle. If an ANI section covered a user's sock-puppetry or sought consensus on a ban for edit warring, or discussed their real-world connection to the topic, and the user genuinely wished to vanish, that would probably be a fair request to blank or collapse under right to vanish. The section could easily have been archived by the time the request is made, or shortly after. FT2  14:24, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

← re: "finally" I understand your desired use (i.e. "full and final" departure) but it might also be read as "Thank the maker - this guy is finally leaving" ;> –xeno 14:40, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

It's such an important point - a number of people considering RTV have left briefly, been banned, stopped editing, come back, etc. It needs to be clear this is when they are ready for a final and forever decision, nothing less. Both of those words probably matter. Is there a better way to say it? ("When a user makes an irrevocable decision to leave forever"?). If so, go ahead. FT2  14:43, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Just thought I'd let you know why I removed 'finally'; will think about the best way to say it unambiguously. –xeno 14:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

It needs to be clear this is when they are ready for a final and forever decision, nothing less. Both of those words probably matter - that it's fixed/final, and that it's forever. There is some redundancy but it needs to be really clear as its target audience is people who may have thought they were leaving on other occasions and then cooled off. ("When a user makes a categorical decision to leave forever"?) if you can think of a way, go ahead. FT2  14:43, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

A user page appears in a category

Hello FT2: Your user page ] may be in violation of WP:USERNOCAT. The Category that it appears in, Category:Periods with timeline in infobox, appears to be a maintenance category, so it seems reasonable to allow user pages to appear in the category while development of a page is proceeding. Your user page in question does not seem to be in active development. Do you think you should comment out or otherwise deactivate the code that is putting this page into a category? Thanks for your consideration. --Fartherred (talk) 21:48, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, good catch. Fixed. FT2  21:55, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks!

File:Wikithanks Ribbon.png
Thanks for the minor copyedits you have made to the ARKBK and Bunyoro articles! Skibden (talk) 15:07, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Date error

File:Deepwater Horizon oil spill - May 24, 2010 - with locator.jpg is from May 24, but the disaster is from April 22 ... whats wrong? Palu (talk) 23:10, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Nothing. The image is a satellite photo of the spill showing the spread around a month after the explosion. FT2  23:17, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

recap table

this is totally off in left field, but I like that recap table you used here. do you think i would be worth the effort of turning that into a template for more general use in summary-type situations? I'm happy to do it, I just don't know if it would get used sufficiently to justify the effort. --Ludwigs2 23:38, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks

For pointing out the exception to the topic ban. I assumed there had to be one, but had not seen it. Lots of luck with the rewrite, Sandstein has some good points, but progress is occurring. My main goal is to make sure that user talk pages are in scope (i.e. not an exception to the ban).--SPhilbrickT 19:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Draupner close-up.png

Thanks for uploading or contributing to File:Draupner close-up.png. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Misplaced Pages constitutes fair use. Please go to the file description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 22:01, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Done, I think. FT2  22:13, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

AFD - List of Medical Eponyms Discouraged Because of Nazi Associations

Feel free to stop by the AfD and see how I've improved the underlying article. If you've still got concerns that you want me to address, feel free to let me know, but I think I've fixed everything, except the title--which I agree needs work and better options are currently being discussed both in the AfD and the article talk page. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 01:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The title itself is still a real concern. I've fixed most of the remaining issues I can see with the rest - see article and AFD comments. FT2  01:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Jclemens (talk) 02:36, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Hey, can you pop by the article again and provide constructive criticism on how I'm using the table you created? Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 00:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

No need - it's fine. FT2  01:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

An award

What started as you bothering me over my tag moving around resulted in great social progress and similarly awesome results in the name of better service on behalf of User:RFC bot. For your efforts in achieving change I award you the Congressman Gene Taylor Award for Progress, ironically named after a conservative member of Congress. harej 03:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Incubator CSD

Thanks for restarting the discussion. At this point we needed a new proposal to "wipe the slate" and get something moving. That said, I think it might need an adjustment in wording. The short summary implies that the article has to be stale either way, but the way it's written, the first clause could apply to non-stale articles. Gigs (talk) 13:01, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

The wording is "stale or unlikely to be suitable", not just "stale". Doesn't that cover it? But yes, do reword if it'll help. FT2  13:04, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, so I guess that was the intention. I like it, but you might pick up some opposition since the first criteria allows for someone to instantly "veto" an incubation, with no opportunity for anyone to improve it. That might cause drama if it were widely used without giving people a chance to improve an article that was incubated. Gigs (talk) 13:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

JohnCD's already proposed a fix for that ("after one week at deletion"). I'm fine with that, others will support it if it's needed. FT2  13:28, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, FT2. You have new messages at WP:VPP.
Message added 23:02, 7 November 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Misplaced Pages talk:Administrators

It seems as if most of this page was unintentionally hatted. Not sure how to fix this. What do you think? ScottyBerg (talk) 14:25, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm looking but it's not completely clear what the issue is - which hats or why? FT2  14:35, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, it's just that there are eleven items in the Table of Contents and only three are visible. I'm not sure how that happened, as it is not evident from the page history. Wasn't sure who to ask about this, so I took the liberty of contacting you. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:31, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I see...... well spotted :) And fixed. FT2  19:45, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it looked like an incorrect archiving, but I wasn't sure. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:39, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

2010 Duke University faux sex thesis controversy

For BLP reasons I have removed, so that at least it does not show on the top version of the article, the link to an "unredacted" version of the document, which names names. If the article gets kept, I think that link should be suppressed, if possible. Regards, JohnCD (talk) 22:16, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Gladiator screenshot

Here you go: File:Gladiator.png. If you need anything else, let me know. Oh, and if you could check over the fair use template, I'd appreciate that. This is my first screenshot for WP, so I might have made some slight errors in the red tape. Dismas| 05:42, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

You want subtitles, I got yer subtitles right here! Sorry, different film... The time is 1:44:18. And yes, it's spoken. I don't know of a place where it's seen and not spoken. Though, like I said, it's been years since I saw the whole film and I just knew where to jump to because the other editor who responded on the Ref Desk remembered the scene. For the article that you're working on, I think it's better with subtitles. After all, that's what you're going for is the phrase and a still image doesn't do much for you without the subtitles. Anything else you need, just let me know! Dismas| 06:02, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the deletion and the update of the info for the kept file. Dismas| 06:22, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Guru Larry's Retro Corner

The article you defaulted to keep is up again for deleted a day later by the exact same person who tried to have it deleted a few days before. Can they constantly apply to have an article removed, even if an admin has approved to keep it? This person has systematically gone through every article referring to a show or TV network involving Larry Bundy Jr. Which seems rather strange. --FirecrackerDemon (talk) 06:05, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

If they don't have anything new to offer in the way of rationale and it's tendentious, you can often suggest a SNOW close. But in this case it's got at least some rationale (unbundling a matter that got no comment) and other users don't seem to be expressing a view that it's tendentious, so I suspect just let it run its course. FT2  06:22, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks ever so for your help. Is there any possibility you can step in and comment at all? I must admit, while I've been on here for a while, I'm nor adept at deletion/merging discussions. These articles had the same issues a few years ago too, so it's coming quite a headache. Thanks!!!--FirecrackerDemon (talk) 08:52, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Talkback on Misplaced Pages talk:Revision deletion/Noticeboard

• Talkback removed, tracking separately. Thanks. FT2  19:21, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Expectations and norms

Hi FT2. I'm trialling an invitation to edit at Pain that links readers to a simple editing tutorial from the top of the article. I've added a link in that tutorial to Expectations and norms.

It's nicely done, simple and effective when collapsed. Two concerns worth considering though:

1. Tagging an article as "you can edit this" may imply that others cannot be so edited. You might potentially get strong opposition for this reason.
2. The template when expanded is way too long and detailed.

Because of these I'm not sure what wider feedback will end up being. But as a concept - it's definitely worth experimenting and trying out! Nice work :) FT2  11:14, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Both very good points, FT2. Thanks so much for the feedback. I've copied the above to the project talk page. I hope that's OK. Anthony (talk) 14:56, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Accident or intentional?

Did you mean to delete my post here? Tijfo098 (talk) 13:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry - the two look like they edit conflicted in the same minute - I was actually commenting on yours (supportively) and it looks like I accidentally overwrote the text rather than adding mine to it. I see you've edited yours since - I'm not sure what the correct version should be, so please go ahead and reinstate yours, and thanks for noticing it. FT2  15:16, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

On second thought, it wasn't incredibly important. It is hard to believe that a non-fiction writer who has received multiple awards is unaware of the weasel word concept, but the issue is not central to that discussion. Tijfo098 (talk) 16:09, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

That thought had ocurred to me too. Seems something of a labored effort and a coatrack. FT2  16:23, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Now, "coatrack" is a far better example of Misplaced Pages jargon.  :-) Tijfo098 (talk) 18:08, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

I wondered where the post went too... One minute it was there, the next it was just gone. --Tothwolf (talk) 21:15, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

FYI, this seems to be the issue. Tijfo098 (talk) 18:18, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

On Beauty

Hi, could you please take a look at On Beauty? Now there is a third SPA, an IP editor actually, posting that same link (and messing up some of the rest of the article. Thanks. Logical Cowboy (talk) 22:36, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I have blocked that and the other previous account. The IP is dynamic. If it repeats without unblock being agreed, then any admin should be able to block a reincarnation or semi-protect against IP disruption. FT2  23:29, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Logical Cowboy (talk) 05:42, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi, On Beauty has been reverted by three different IP editors. What would you think about protecting from IP edits for a while? Thanks. Logical Cowboy (talk) 14:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Semiprotected for 3 weeks. If it goes further, seek pending changes protection at WP:RFPP. FT2  16:38, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Just to let you know, I reported this at WP:RFPP. IP vandal is back. Thanks. Logical Cowboy (talk) 07:30, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I've put a fairly long pending changes on. Still gives us the option to wack-a-mole with the IP without damaging the article. GedUK  08:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi, could you please have a look at Zadie Smith? Same editor is back. Logical Cowboy (talk) 17:46, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Drauper freak wave.png

Thanks for uploading or contributing to File:Drauper freak wave.png. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Misplaced Pages constitutes fair use. Please go to the file description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. SchuminWeb (Talk) 18:02, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Old upload, formal templated rationales now added. FT2  19:19, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Welcome to the elections!

Dear FT2, thank you for nominating yourself as a candidate in the 2010 Arbitration Committee elections. On behalf of the coordinators, allow me to welcome you to the election and make a few suggestions to help you get set up. By now, you ought to have written your nomination statement, which should be no more than 400 words and declare any alternate or former user accounts you have contributed under (or, in the case of privacy concerns, a declaration that you have disclosed them to the Arbitration Committee). Although there are no fixed guidelines for how to write a statement, note that many candidates treat this as an opportunity, in their own way, to put a cogent case as to why editors should vote for them—highlighting the strengths they would bring to the job, and convincing the community they would cope with the workload and responsibilities of being an arbitrator.

You should at this point have your own questions subpage; feel free to begin answering the questions as you please. Together, the nomination statement and questions subpage should be transcluded to your candidate profile, whose talkpage will serve as the central location for discussion of your candidacy. If you experience any difficulty setting up these pages, please follow the links in the footer below. If you need assistance, on this or any other matter (including objectionable questions or commentary by others on your candidate pages), please notify the coordinators at their talkpage. If you have followed these instructions correctly, congratulations, you are now officially a candidate for the Arbitration Committee. Good luck! Skomorokh 22:10, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

v t e Arbitration Committee Election 2019 candidate: FT2 Candidate statement (create) Questions for the candidate (create) Discuss this candidate (create)

Questions from Lar

Hi. Best of luck in your upcoming trial by fire. As in previous years I have a series of questions I ask candidates. This year there are restrictions on the length and number of questions on the "official" page for questions, restrictions which I do not agree with, but which I will abide by. I nevertheless think my questions are important and relevant (and I am not the only person to think so, in previous years they have drawn favorable comment from many, including in at least one case indepth analysis of candidates answers to them by third parties). You are invited to answer them if you so choose. I suggest that the talk page of your questions page is a good place to put them and I will do so with your acquiescence (for example, SirFozzie's page already has them as do the majority of other candidates). Your answers, (or non-answers should you decide not to answer them), that will be a factor in my evaluation of your candidacy. Please let me know as soon as practical what your wish is. Thanks and best of luck. (please answer here, I'll see it, and it keeps things together better) ++Lar: t/c 22:12, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I look forward to them. I see we have many candidates in the last day or so. My concern would purely be "will there be time to answer more". Some answers may end up briefer and less nuanced than they should for that reason. My Q&A in 2007 was 370 K long, so I've done long answers on many matters previously (including older versions of yours) that do reflect nuances. FT2  22:40, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to cut and paste where that makes sense... or comment on how your answers have changed. They have been added. ++Lar: t/c 01:52, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Revision deletion/Admin

Just came across Misplaced Pages:Revision deletion/Admin when I was searching for something else; seems like a now-redundant old draft. Just wondered if you want to delete it or if there's some reason to keep. Rd232 01:07, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes - done. Thanks. FT2  01:17, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ransack (2nd nomination)

What do you mean by "We do have articles on "multiple characters who share a name", whether related, in the same topic area, or unrelated"? Why should we have articles on characters who have no actual connection?

In Misplaced Pages, things are grouped into articles based on what they are, not what they are called by.

— Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary

Judging by that AfD and the previous one, it seems clear that all that information shouldn't be on the same page, so I'm sure we shouldn't have articles on things with nothing in common but name. NotARealWord (talk) 15:54, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

The example I was thinking of was K-9 (Doctor Who), where 4 completely different characters spread across what looks like 3 completely different tenuously connected programs are covered in one article. Analysis is a non-fiction example where many completely different uses in completely different fields from music to statistics to chemistry use the word but with something in common - the concept of "breaking something down into smaller pieces to understand it better". The topic is covered in an article not a disambiguation page.

In this case these are not unconnected "Ransacks". (For example, it doesn't contain examples such as "Ransack - the looting or pillaging of a city or country" and a link to an article on ransacks of towns.) They are all Ransacks in the Transformers series and universe. FT2  19:27, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Those K-9s were all robot dogs as far as I can tell. They are related concepts since the subsequent ones were based on the original, as a real-life design influence. Those Ransacks are simply characters from one brand who share a name. They don't look or act alike. They're not even the same species of Transformer (Ransack from the Armada comic books is a Mini-con, a separate species with separate origins compared to the rest of the Transformers). I understand there are articles like Batman of Zur-En-Arrh that covers multiple subjects, but those things actually have a relation beyond name (For the Batman of ZEA thing, it's clear that the one from Batman R.I.P was based on the Silver Age character in some form). NotARealWord (talk) 19:53, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

That's exactly the point. You can't tell if they are the same or not (nor could I!). You don't know if someone who's a Doctor Who fan would be horrified to see K-9 mark I, II, II, IV grouped as "all robot dogs"; they aren't all even in the same story or series, they are completely different characters. Yet they have enough in common as Misplaced Pages article subjects to share an article. Similar logic applies to Analysis, Ransack and various other topics. The AFD decision was because 1/ they are all "Ransacks" and all from the same fiction series/universe so it's not entirely unreasonable: there's considerable precedent that different characters or terms with a common thread (same series, same root) can and do share one article, 2/ there was no clear consensus otherwise at the AFD. If you're still not sure, it's easy to re-check at deletion review. Link it to this thread though. FT2  20:39, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

The difference between the K-9s and the ransacks is that the K-9s were all based on the original. The Ransacks are entirely separate concepts. They don't look or behave like each other. A more relevant comparison is i the article Master (Doctor Who) was also about "The Master of the Land o Fiction". Those two have about as much relation as all the Ransacks. I'm not sure what you mean by "cannot tell if they are the same or not. Tlano is not the same thing as an alternate personality of Bruce Wayne. K-9s are separate things in-story but they're related in terms of as real-world design inspiration. Ransacks are entirely different characters. As I've mentioned, they don't even look alike. They're not really based on one another the way the K-9s are. NotARealWord (talk) 20:53, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Deleted archives

I see that you deleted your archives (User talk:FT2/Archive) on 27 August 2009. Is there any reason for preventing non-admins from seeing this? John Vandenberg 23:04, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Also, as your deletion message says 'Refactoring'; what refactoring was done? I can't quickly see any refactoring being done at that time John Vandenberg 23:10, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

If you're running for ArbCom, your talkpage history needs to be visible to non-admins. Seconding John's question, is there some reason that you, or I, or another admin should not restore these forthwith? MastCell  23:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

No need. When I archived it was with copy/paste not page move. So the talk history is still 100% visible in this page's history. Up till August 2009 I added a reorganized copy to a separate archive page when pruning the old threads. It was a habit from the days when I would work on a set of pages for many months and might need to refer back to old discussions related to those articles. My editing style changed years ago but I kept it from habit. That's what you're seeing.

You can restore it if you like, but anyone wanting to see my talk history doesn't need access to that page and I wouldn't rely on it. They can just look in this page's history for "archive"/"archiving" with page text search (or where byte count drops by 100K or so). The talk page history itself is the better source, because as a page for personal reference, the archive was not a 100% copy. It's been deleted a year now. FT2  01:53, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

The archive is much more accessible, covering 4 years of your history on one page, and has incoming links. non-admins should be able to access this. Typically when people don't provide an archive, they provide a set of links to all archived versions in the history. You are providing neither. John Vandenberg 03:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Not sure why anyone would link to the archive, but the link can easily be redirected to the relevant history revision. Also disagree that people "typically" provide links to all archived versions in history - or at least it's not a practice I've seen as a norm. If you sampled editors who remove rather than archive old posts, very few seem to provide a list of links to the history revisions. If they're needed then we look them up in history. Mine had precisely two incoming links in 4 years, both years old now. Suggests it's only salient now, in the context of this specific election, for one week. Then it goes back to being unwanted.

List of versions where threads were removed as old: May 2010 Aug 2009 June 2009 Jan 2009 (2) Jan 2009 (1:long) Aug 2008 Apr 2008 Apr 2008 to Mar 2008 Feb 2008 Dec 2007 Jul 2007 (2) Jul 2007 (1) Dec 2006 May 2006 Apr 2005. Before this there was ad-hoc removal of odd threads. My talk page has 12 deleted revisions, all apparently routine related to sockpuppetry policy and removed by an administrator in 2006 as being posted by banned user Zephram Stark. Apart from that and as far as I know, all edits ever posted to that page are public and in its history.

(Caveat - I haven't really operated a formal archive system nor expected to be asked for one. I don't have a foolproof way to produce one. The above list is generated by skimming my page history looking for where the byte count dropped. So I can't guarantee the above links will show all posts (there may be odd removals I missed) nor that any archive page I created for my own use will show all posts.)

FT2  04:37, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Disturbing Behavior at FT2's Question Page

This message has been posted to both involved parties' talk pages in identical form. Please discuss this further at the coordination talk page, rather than on your individual pages.

Let me make this very clear. This has to stop, if not because it reflects poorly on the two of you, if not because it reflects poorly on the elections, but at the very least because it is, at this point, disruptive. You are bickering over information that the public can not see, and accusations are being traded that can not be verified by the community at large. At this point, the damage is limited, and both of you have much more to gain by shaking hands and moving on. If there is a real concern here, it should be brought to ArbCom in private. If this is only posturing, it has to end. This is neither the time nor the place for this concern to be voiced, and while I do not have the authority to compel you to stop, I would kindly ask (in the strongest possible way) that it does.

Thank you, Sven Manguard _Talk 05:58, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I would say that responding to a pointy question by asking for data and suggesting email is the correct thing to do. I also asked for it to be removed. However it's solved now and hopefully all okay. I've checked the data he finally gave, the data at Arbcom is unsurprisingly correct. FT2  07:46, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

• Asking FT2 embarrassing questions about the scandals of his wiki-career "has to stop"? Well, why why do you suppose it hasn't stopped, Sven? Because FT2 had the questionable judgment to list himself as a candidate in these elections. People who do that must be prepared for questions, and if their wiki-past is chequered and their election statement full of holes, the questions will be sharp and difficult. If they weren't, it would indeed reflect poorly on the elections. This is very much the time and place for concerns to be voiced. Bishonen | talk 21:22, 30 November 2010 (UTC).

Aside from the mis-assumption about judgment, Bishonen is completely right here and I concur with her in all she says. FT2  14:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

• FT, would you mind undeleting User talk:FT2/Archive? It was linked to in the 2009 RfC, but it's now coming up as a red link and it may contain some of the clarifications people are looking for (in the #Necessary Clarification section). SlimVirgin 02:40, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

• It's okay, my mistake, I replaced it with a link to the page history. SlimVirgin 09:06, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Everything should be in page history. Much more reliable than a link to that page (as discussed above). FT2  14:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Query

I spent some time today rereading the OrangeMarlin and Oversighted edits debacle of late 2007-early 2009. One thing that confused me was Thatcher's statement in Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/FT2 ("FT2, FloNight and I also discussed the issue of the oversighted edits in an IRC chat on April 24, 2008. Arbcom has the log. Thatcher 19:26, 14 January 2009 (UTC)"). That seemingly contradicts your extended statement and previous posts you made, which indicate that you were unaware of any such oversighted edits (although I can think of a number of things that would explain the situation). Could you clarify please? NW (Talk) 22:05, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. I have a fair memory on it. The machine I need to check it for certain is briefly inaccessible - I should have access back shortly if all's well. Taking note of the query I'll do what I can to make that sooner than later. FT2  12:44, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I've tracked down the log now. It bears out what I stated - the only statements are ones that speak of oversighted edits as a completely speculative allegation he could potentially make.

The log I have starts where I'm asking Thatcher and FloNight to agree that his wish for an on-wiki case is granted and the user allowed a public unban hearing visible to the community for transparency, if he wants, because then evidence can be openly scrutinized. Otherwise if heard in private there will be suspicion whatever the outcome. I get overruled because of their perception it will be disruptive to allow a platform - FloNight noting that he was banned for good cause, Thatcher pointing out that it doesn't matter whether there is anything to back up his claims or not, as - if no improper edits can be found - he would just allege material was oversighted instead (or if nothing's found in the oversight log either, that the developers removed it). Thatcher and Flonight then discuss how to deal with him as an obsessive or disruptive user and that I should not worry about him being given a private hearing instead.

That's all that's said about the oversighted edits in that log. As I stated, there's nothing at all that discusses whether specific edits were oversighted or would alert a user that actual edits were being claimed to be. There was no discussion of any oversighted edits, just discussion by Thatcher that if allowed a public case he might claim there were oversighted edits (and try can cause drama which both stated to me, would be pointless to allow). I've also emailed you the April 2008 log I have, either for review or to verify against the version from Thatcher. FT2  06:54, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

That is a great response to the question FT2, but it is based on your 'data' and is not the right answer. The following dates could be slightly wrong as I haven't looked closely at timezones.

• On April 21 (F43A818E433D44648BB0569FDCB686CB), the banned user emails Arbcom with a link which includes a crat saying publicly that they are emailing the details to the Foundation for review.
• On April 22 (480dbb5d.1f15300a.0410.01b4), FT2 provides Arbcom with a summary of the user in question, leaving out many specifics that I know he knew back in December 2007.
• On April 22 (54ADCFC31B35499C86E666B5197CB5D0), the banned user emailed Arbcom, forwarding their email from 8 December 2007 which contained all the details necessary to find these edits, being the first two edits FT2 ever made. FT2 claims to have forgotten that he started Misplaced Pages on the article Zoophilia. Even if he had forgotten, these emails were a reminder. The original email had been sent to two 'crats in December 2007. Jimmy Wales has also been sent these emails between December and April; I don't know whether they were received or not.
• On April 24, there were a few arbitrator comments in a separate thread. MessageID 16032ea0804241712n3ee276cayd178991b1e0df657 shows that the problem was properly understood. At this stage, FT2 (48111d14.04eb300a.328e.097f) is still participating in the relevant discussions.
• On April 25 (86CD3F11-2D27-44EC-A05E-3107DCA4965E), an arbitrator responded to the banned user, indicating that the committee would discuss the matter, and proceeded to start the arbcom discussion.
• On April 25 (481265c7.2435440a.29eb.0c79), FT2 gave the arbs a brain dump of how he thought the arbs should handle the matter, whilst also indicating that he knew he was considered involved. Another arb promptly told him to keep his opinions to himself. FT2 respond acknowledging that his comments are as a party rather than as an arbitrator.

The Arbs in that IRC discussion may not have mentioned the specifics, but they were aware of them, or should have, or could have easily found them in their Inbox.

And riddle me this; why were you involved in that IRC discussion at all? You should have known to stay well away from this issue. By participating in it, you give up your right to claim you know nothing when the details were right there under your nose. John Vandenberg 10:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

John, this is getting pretty close to trolling. Thanks for the compliment and for jumping in with a mix of irrelevant emails and unfounded claims, but since the log was sent independently to Arbcom by Thatcher (as far as I can tell) it's verifiable and anyone can check the description is accurate.

Turning to the emails: like it or not, those emails were filtered and that was entirely what any arb should have done. You're suggesting that parties to a case watching their opponents' emails to Arbcom is acceptable. It is not. The community in 2007 and I strongly agreed on this point (this was a "big issue" at ACE2007). Parties to a case should not be shown or seek to view emails sent by opponents to the Arbcom mailing list, even if technically they could.

Extract from election platform in 2007

From Arbcom election Q&A, December 2007 (link):

Question by Irpen:

Arbitrator's private mailing list, known as Arbcom-l and the arbitrators only IRC channel may obviously include information that cannot be made public under any circumstances. Additionally, being aware of the intra-ArbCom communication may give case parties an obvious advantage over their opponents. Should users who are parties of the case, comment on the case, present evidence on the case, be allowed to have read access to the list where the case is discussed by the decision makers?

Response:

"One line answer -- 3/ Clear and strong oppose to parties being able to influence, shoulder-read, or be in the frame, in cases where they have involvement, but concerns over the best way to achieve that technically in practice. (emphasis in original)

"on-arbitrators have no way to tell whether (and how well) these things are being taken care of. Hildanknight used a good word discussing the Singapore elections yesterday: "Incorruptible". I think that's what's needed. Arbitrators so strict in their self-managing, that even if they were able to access such matters they wouldn't use it, nor would others be influenced by them."

If you don't approve of this stance, then we differ.

Asking on IRC that those handling his case give the guy what he wants (a public hearing) is not by any stretch "giving up a right". It's complete fairness and best practice, and needed to happen. That's why I requested that chat. There was not one statement in it to suggest an actual oversighting had happened. That's a red herring. The description above is accurate and NW (who's been sent a copy) would surely say something if not.

Perhaps that scale of integrity doesn't occur to you as something people do. Luckily as it's in the chat log itself, which I gather was sent independently to Arbcom, and in repeated emails to Arbcom demanding the user was given a hearing without my access to his email dialog, I don't have to ask that my word be taken on it. Be very careful not to assume I saw his emails just by being on the list. If I had seen them, that would be a black mark.

Of your 6 bullets -- (1/3/4/5) were all communications between Arbcom and the user (or by Arbitrators on the user's case) to which I excluded myself or was not included in the first place. I avoided reading emails that would infringe the user's right to a fair hearing. (2) is merely a vague claim "leaving out many specifics that I know he knew" Specify please. (6) was my demand that the case were held in a way that minimized harm and gave the best chance for a fair hearing, and listed the factors that could be seen as fair or pro/con public hearing. As a party, much less an arb, that's completely correct (even if others would have appreciated my not being so strongly concerned for the other user's reassurance). The IRC chat was my request to give the user the public hearing he wanted. I was declined on the basis he might use it as a soapbox. There was nothing in the chat to suggest to a participant that this was an actual issue.

FT2  18:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Bestiarii (EUR Museum).jpg

Thanks for uploading or contributing to File:Bestiarii (EUR Museum).jpg. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Misplaced Pages constitutes fair use. Please go to the file description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. SchuminWeb (Talk) 06:09, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Old upload, query posted at Misplaced Pages:Media copyright questions#File:Bestiarii (EUR Museum).jpg. FT2  12:33, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Editing stats - opting in request

Hi FT2. I am writing my own ArbCom Election voting guide. One of the criteria I am reviewing is candidate's activity. Would you consider opting in for this tool, so that we can see your monthly (and yearly) distribution of edits? Thanks, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Ping. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:50, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I missed something from you earlier

Hi, FT2, I only just discovered this comment of yours from earlier. Sorry about that. At this point, it seems largely moot, but I've written a brief reply on what little I thought still mattered at this point. Mostly just didn't want you to think I was deliberately ignoring you. Cheers. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 11:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you

FT2, thank you for your helpful sourcing improvements to the article Meade Emory. Much appreciated, -- Cirt (talk) 04:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Christmas Card

User:DeltaQuad/Christmas2010

File:Choclab-cropped.jpg listed for deletion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Choclab-cropped.jpg, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Kelly 08:47, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Template:Ctest2

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Nomination for deletion of Template:SPIevidencebottom

Template:SPIevidencebottom has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. Plastikspork _―Œ 06:37, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

IRC logs

Post by banned user - collapsed, see Checkuser inquiry below
Any idea how I could get a copy of the logs referred to here . Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.164.187.54 (talk) 19:58, 4 January 2011 (UTC) As Jimbo said, it's not at all likely. Contents of private chats amicably dealt with are unlikely to be passed around publicly. FT2  03:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Gabrielle Giffords

Editing through full protection

I know it's just cleanup, but still not a good idea, if avoidable. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:30, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

As a general statement, SarekOfVulcan is of course correct about the policy. However, this article is going to viewed over the next few hours by tens of thousands of readers. As such, I think that WP:IAR would provide support for wholly uncontroversial cleanup edits and the like. This is an exceptional, urgent situation. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more, and I've already stated such on the talkpage, but I reverted my earlier changes. Perhaps we'll need to clarify this in future... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:34, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policy is that admin privileges are not to be abused for overriding page protection. Is that somehow unclear? I am slightly surprised that an admin is not clear on this. 88.112.59.31 (talk) 20:39, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

WP:IAR to make the page good for the many thousands of views it's getting. That's obvious. Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

You cite WP:IAR as an excuse for admin privilege abuse? That is so the wrong way for an admin to think and behave. 88.112.59.31 (talk) 20:53, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't have a problem with the IP user having this concern. Admins should be accountable for their edits and admin actions - of which editing through protection is one. That accountability is to all users, and the question is a fair one. I have explained my reasoning below, it is roughly the same as Newyorkbrad's and The Rambling Man's. FT2  20:56, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Your edits of Gabrielle Giffords

Please stop editing a protected article. As an admin you should know that admin tools are not to be used for overriding page protection. 88.112.59.31 (talk) 20:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

See my comment above. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Giffords

This led me to believe that we shouldn't be making cosmetic edits to the fully-protected article. I reverted all my changes post-full-protection, but it all looks a little inconsistent to me. I'd expect some kerfuffle at AN/I about all this... Oh well, whatever. Just thought you should know. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

See my comment above. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Comment on the above

Full page protection generally applies to contentious issues. If any user objected to an edit, it would then of course need talk page discussion, but cleanup of sections unrelated to the issue are not usually a problem.

Page protection policy related to content disputes: "Pages that are protected because of content disputes should not be edited except to make changes which are uncontroversial or for which there is clear consensus".

This is going to be an extremely high traffic article with much public attention over the next few days. It is also a BLP and requires the highest quality of sourcing and writing. The content issue is purely related to her medical condition after the shooting and compliance with BLP policy in the wake of media focus. The rest is not contentious, and I personally do not intend to make any edits other than quality / factuality / tone. If any specific edit is in fact contentious then it should be reverted and discussed, or discussed first if likely to be contentious. Administrators are trusted to understand this - editing through protection is not trivial.

But "Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy", WP:BLP, protection policy, and WP:IAR all come into play here. As Newyorkbrad correctly says, this is a case where cleanup is appropriate and sensible. The page is protected purely to prevent inappropriate BLP editing on the question of her death and medical condition, and vandalism or very poor editing, due to its high profile.

FT2  20:51, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Update - I am making one edit on the shooting, namely to note she was one of several victims, which better represents the incident. Hopefully not contentious. FT2  21:05, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Note that at the moment, the page is semiprotected rather than full-protected. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I thought it was better to be open about it, in case the user saw the edit and was concerned what was going on. But you're right, not needed now. FT2  21:11, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Request

Hi FT2, you are not one to habitually agree with me.  :-) Could you have a look at Misplaced Pages:WQA#Response_to_Jehochman and the underlying content issues. You have a good eye for WP:NPOV. I'd value your feedback. Regards, Jehochman 17:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Ambassador Program is looking for new Online Ambassadors

Hi! Since you've been identified as an Awesome Wikipedian, I wanted to let you know about the Misplaced Pages Ambassador Program, and specifically the role of Online Ambassador. We're looking for friendly Wikipedians who are good at reviewing articles and giving feedback to serve as mentors for students who are assigned to write for Misplaced Pages in their classes.

If you're interested, I encourage you to take a look at the Online Ambassador guidelines; the "mentorship process" describes roughly what will be expected of mentors during the current term, which started in January and goes through early May. If that's something you want to do, please apply!

You can find instructions for applying at WP:ONLINE.

I hope to hear from you soon.--Sage Ross - Online Facilitator, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 20:12, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for oversight grammatical error

I arrived at the Misplaced Pages:Requests for oversight page through a series of links, as I am prone to do. While reading through the page to see what it was all about, I discovered that under the "Necessary information" section right around the middle of the page, there was the sentence "...which can saves time". However, there was (for reasons unclear to me), no talk page for the article to report this. Looking through the revision history, I saw that you had done some grammar correctional edits, and, currently, the most recent editor for the page. Forgive me if I'm asking the wrong thing of the wrong person, but, because of the aforementioned reasons and since you're an administrator, I was wondering if you would be able to correct this error. My preemptive gratitude, WM2 22:10, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I've fixed the typo, and tried to make it clearer how cases get reported. Hope this helps - go take a look. I've credited you in the edit summary. FT2  12:04, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I can now rest easier tonight knowing that an important Wikipedian page is now free of grammatical error. My gratitude, WM2 01:24, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Details of IRC chat

Collapsed

This refers . You said earlier you could not make the IRC log public. You seem to have the only record. Can you say what time the chat occurred? Do you still have a copy of the log, or have you destroyed it? Did you know at the time of Scribe's email that you had the only log? Why did you drop out of the elections? WJ Scribe claims he does not remember any of the events you refer to, and he claims (per email) that your account is incorrect anyway - he did not inform you of any oversighting or anything like that. It doesn't make sense you should drop out o/a of something that no one ever remembers. Best 86.178.24.134 (talk) 22:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Appears to be a post and attempt to engage despite an Arbcom ruling by a banned user (as confirmed by CheckUser), with whom I will not interact on-wiki. Previous question and reply also collapsed too. FT2  18:34, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, FT2. That seems very likely. --KFP (contact | edits) 19:39, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Ping!

See User talk:Risker#Long post is long.. I'm extending the same invitation I made to Risker there to you, and to anyone else you can think of to invite. Steven Walling at work 01:31, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Category:Persons convicted of fraud

Since you Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2011_January_26#Category:Persons_convicted_of_fraud participated in the recent CfD of Category:Persons convicted of fraud I wanted to inform you that the category was recently recreated and relisted. Here is a link to the current CfD should you wish to participate. Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2011_February_20#Category:Persons_convicted_of_fraud. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 03:49, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

"Anime" vandalism by Russian IPs.

Hello. Sorry to disturb you. I don't know if TV or anime is your cup of tea, but you should anyway check the following IPs, all of which are trying to put "anime" hoaxes and other misinformation and "connections" to the Philippine cartoon, Super Inggo at ang Super Tropa. I've also noted that users of these addresses (possibly a single person) have also put unsourced information and categories on other unrelated anime articles and several others. Here are the addresses I found so far (he may have used more):

• 92.100.237.11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 92.100.178.61 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 92.100.161.170 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 92.100.182.39 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 92.100.177.214 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 92.100.238.160 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 91.122.87.45 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 91.122.89.81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

To top this all off, these addresses are based in Russia. So obviously, the vandal surely couldn't provide sources for his edits as the said cartoon (if I'm not mistaken) has not been aired out of the Philippines. So what do you think? Can a block be imposed on either or both of the 92.100.128.0/17 and 91.122.80.0/20 ranges? It seems the addresses are assigned to the same provider. Thanks in advance. - 上村七美 (Nanami-chan) | talkback | contribs 03:16, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

IP block exemption

You’ve helped me before with an IP block exemption. I’m blocked again, it seems. Could you please look into this? --Babelfisch (talk) 08:29, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Is being handled. Cheers, Amalthea 19:31, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Has been solved, apparently, but I still wonder what happened and why. --Babelfisch (talk) 02:18, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

It was an oversight. Sorry to bother you. --Babelfisch (talk) 01:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Las Vegas

Hmmm...you've made the sentence say that the growth of LV in the '40s was due almost entirely to the Manhattan Project. But the source says that the growth of LV between 1945 and 1962 was that way. You might want to double check the source there. --jpgordon 02:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Source states: "Between 1945 and 1962, about 100 above-ground tests were carried out. The light pulse, shock wave and mushroom cloud could all be seen from Las Vegas. Many times, residents threw cocktail parties and gathered outside while a test was being carried out. The early growth of Las Vegas was due almost entirely to the boost in prosperity it got from the huge numbers of scientists, test ground staff and soldiers that worked on the atomic tests."

The focus of the article is on the connection of bomb tests and LV, not on the history of LV. The source looks like it's making 2 sets of claims:

1. Between 1945 and 1962 many tests took place, and much partying was had.
2. The early growth of LV was due almost entirely to the personnel of these tests.

I had read "early growth" as not necessarily being the same as "1945-1962". It could probably be read other ways. What do you reckon? FT2  14:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

"Early growth" is pretty vague, anyway -- Las Vegas history goes back well into the 19th century, and most observers would say "wait a minute, early growth -- what about the Hoover Dam, which drew many thousands of people into the area?" I don't think the assertion or the "almost entirely" characterization is necessarily accurate, and perhaps a historical source rather than a technical writer source for such information would be superior. --jpgordon 15:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Stop paranoid censorship !

Good morning FT2,

I just want to let you know that there is in your rank of unpaid moderators a guy whose skill consists in applying your rules in a stubborn and almost inept way.

Moreover, this person seems to have psychological disorders as he always reverts "vandalism" everywhere, all the time. With him, you have absolutely hunted down a real gem: he is a real know-all! His pseudo is Logical Cowboy.

I think it is very charitable on the part of Misplaced Pages to provide the laid-off worker with occupations, but it could be nice if you would not impose persons with social misfit upon net surfers...

Thank you in advance,

Jay —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.64.105.92 (talk) 06:44, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

It's easier to see what has gone on with an example or two. Can you provide a link or explanation, and I'll take a look at the actions the user has taken. FT2  15:23, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Misplaced Pages has an additional userbox available for you, FT2

• This user is a member of WikiProject Misplaced Pages dedicated to improving Misplaced Pages's coverage of itself.

{{Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Misplaced Pages/userbox/UserWikiProjectWikipedia}}

Seeing now that you may be the only project member to use another project userbox which is not listed in the project page's Templates section, as none were previously available there, you're of course invited to add that userbox to the Templates section if you wish to share it.

Pandelver (talk) 15:59, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I prefer the one you link to so I've adopted it, and have merged it into my own preferred style with shorter wording. Good job ! FT2  23:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

BLP, ethnicity, gender

Misplaced Pages talk:Biographies of living persons#Include "ethnicity, gender," to match all other guidelines

Some say source requirements for ethnicity and gender of WP:EGRS don't apply to WP:BLP living persons, simply because the two words aren't in the policy. (Apparently, they think it should only apply to dead people.) I see that you have participated on this topic at the Village Pump.

They also are trying to remove the notability, relevance, and self-identification criteria at WT:EGRS, but that's another fight for another day, I'm simply too busy to watch two fronts at the same time.

We're on the 6th day. Traditionally, these polls go for 7; unless there's no obvious consensus, when we go for an additional 7 days.
--William Allen Simpson (talk) 16:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

AONN Records

Hi FT - thanks for poking at the AONN stuff earlier. The author of the article has started replying again and I would ask you to look at this diff as it seems to be for lack of a better way to put it a little bit crazy. I'm not especially bothered by it but since looking at his contribution history he seems to have done this sort of thing before, a block or more stern warning of some nature may be in order.

As an additional minor note, the only reason there were personal details of any sort in my post was because their disclosure seemed to be in the interests of the sockpuppetry policy. The only details I posted were already disclosed on our userpages, anyway. Kgorman-ucb (talk) 05:09, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm not going to block for a post like that. It's unlikely to accomplish anything. It isn't doing any harm. Let the AFD complete and a decision be made, and see what happens. FT2  12:25, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Notification: changes to "Mark my edits as minor by default" preference

Hello there. This is an automated message to tell you about the gradual phasing out of the preference entitled "Mark all edits minor by default", which you currently have (or very recently had) enabled.

On 13 March 2011, this preference was hidden from the user preferences screen as part of efforts to prevent its accidental misuse (consensus discussion, guidelines for use at WP:MINOR). This had the effect of locking users in to their existing preference, which, in your case, was true. To complete the process, your preference will automatically be changed to false in the next few days. This does not require any intervention on your part and all users will still be able to manually mark their edits as being minor in the usual way.

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Thank you for your understanding and happy editing :) Editing on behalf of User:Jarry1250, LivingBot (talk) 20:17, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Re: Ambulatist

You know, on taking a look at the article, I am not dead sure why it was deleted either - despite my having done that. Whether it was from a conscious decision or a simple error at the time, I agree with you at present and will restore the article with a few cleanups. Some of it does have a slight LOOK of promotional material (the "goals" section primarily), which I'll try to polish up. Thanks a bunch for bringing this to my attention. - Vianello (Talk) 18:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

What counts as consensus

Hello. I was hoping as an admin you could give me some advice. I am thinking about deleting a sentence in a rather controversial article. Basically the article is about a famous song performed by a living person, but the sentence is about that persons actions and allegations against that person which I think mean the sentence should be held to WP:BLP standards. I posted on the talk page that I wanted to delete the sentence. No one has responded to the suggestion either for or against. Does no response after a month imply consensus about the change, especially considering the talk page has had about 75 edits since I have posted the comment. I want to "be bold" but I was reverted the last time I undid this sentence without any explanation. I don't want to start an edit war. How do I proceed. I tried to comb the wiki guidelines but couldn't find the relevant advice. Thanks --MATThematical (talk) 02:04, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

My wiki email is in my signature, go ahead and post the article and issue here, or email it if you like, I'll take a look. Hard to comment without seeing it. FT2  02:33, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Here is the paragraph, of which the last sentence I want to delete, its in the Born This Way (song) article.

Fans and critics alike noticed many similarities to Madonna's "Express Yourself". While some reviewers surmised that the similarities would damage the song's appeal, others felt that “Born This Way” was nonetheless a completely separate piece of work. Neil McCormick of the Daily Telegraph noted that the imitative nature of the song would affect perceptions of Gaga's artistry, commenting that song was " a reworking of Madonna's 'Express Yourself' with a touch of 'Vogue,' which is a bit too much Madonna for someone who is trying to establish her own identity as the, er, new Madonna." Ann Powers of the Los Angeles Times, however, concluded that “Born This Way” had an entirely different message from the Madonna songs it was being compared to and further defended the song by saying, “Whether its sound comes too close to one or another Madonna song seems beside the point; what current pop hit doesn't go green by recycling something familiar?” Similarly Rob Sheffield from Rolling Stone dismissed the comparison and defended Lady Gaga in his review of the song by saying, “You can complain all you want about the tip of the leather cap to "Express Yourself," which was just Madonna’s knock-off of the Staple Singers’ ‘Respect Yourself.’” Gaga herself further addressed the comparisons on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno, explaining that she "got an e-mail from people and her sending me their love and complete support on behalf of the single.” Gaga then proclaimed, “...if the Queen says it shall be, then it shall be.” CNN later reported that Madonna's representative was "not aware that Madonna sent Gaga an e-mail."

Here is the comment I posted about why I thought the last sentence was innapropriate and why it should be deleted

This is an article (referring to the CNN reference) that has only one sentence about the incident, and provides no details about any context of the interview with the representative. I don't see how one representative being "unaware" about the email contributes to this article in a encyclopedic way. In fact the article does not even mention the question the representative was asked. I think when or if Madonna or a representative actually claims that Madonna's camp did not send the email (not just being unaware of the email) then a sentence should be added. Otherwise I fail to see how this sentence keeps with WP standards. Is there a WP:reliable source that talks about this beyond the one sentence quote in the CNN article? I'll let people find such a source before I delete the sentence again, because I agree that something should be there if we can get a source that concretely says that a representative refutes Gaga's claim. Otherwise the sentence fails basic WP standards. --MATThematical (talk) 17:33, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

DJ Hollygrove Deletion

Since you all will not let the page stay up, can you redirect it to OG RON C wiki page. He works for him, developes his website, and his is road Dj? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.155.73.249 (talk) 15:00, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

No. Misplaced Pages is not a promotional website. It is a neutral reference work.

To underline this, our guidelines on redirection also state that "self promotion" is a reason why redirects might be deleted, not why they might be created. FT2  08:52, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

How is it self-promotion when I when I am writing what I know about the guy? Like I told the other MODS, I did an article for University OF Houston paper on this guy a year ago and felt that he deserved a more credit than he gets!

Nomination for deletion of Template:Derefer

Template:Derefer has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. T. Canens (talk) 21:18, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Bill4Time mentioned

Referring to the Nomination for Deletion Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Bill4Time, you suggest that Bill4Time be "mentioned" under List of Legal Software. Would that enable the Bill4Time Misplaced Pages page to still exist? Marjoian (talk) 20:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

As I see it, at present Bill4time doesn't meet our inclusion criteria. So a separate "stand alone" article on it isn't appropriate. Other users may agree or disagree, which is what "Articles for deletion" aims to discuss. That would not impact on its inclusion within a "List of...." type topic, as these don't require listed items to be notable.

I see you've added it to Comparison of time tracking software ‎ and Law practice management software, so those are the kinds of lists I mean, and the deletion discussion will not affect them. FT2  21:17, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

However, the Comparison of time tracking software did present all listed as "notable time tracking software packages and web hosted services" and instructions on the edit screen specifically stated that all listed are to be linked to a Wiki page. Marjoian (talk) 21:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Some lists have that criterion (it's a decision by editors, see Misplaced Pages:Stand-alone lists). If a list article has a criterion that it only includes entries that are notable - or that all entries must have their own article which comes to the same thing - then if the article is deleted the entry will be removed from the list. Other lists may include entries that are notable or non-notable if editors agree. Again that's because Misplaced Pages is selective, and some items may be well known but not be deemed notable for a reference work. It depends on the AFD outcome. FT2  22:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Notability of books

I got your note on notability of books and would be happy to discuss that with you. Unfortunately I won't have time over the next few days, but I'll get back to you. Overall my feeling is that if reviews on publication don't count as significant coverage - if we insist on some kind of test of enduring for the ages before we consider a book to be notable - then we will have almost no books here. IMO a book that met that kind of criterion would be some kind of sociological phenomenon - with maybe two or three books a year qualifying. This is simply because that's the way books are written about - nobody writes a review of a book that came out years ago. My interpretation of the current guideline is that full, original reviews in important sources on publication DO qualify the book as notable, and that what you are proposing would be a major change. But let's talk it over when I get back online next week, and if you think the conversation should be moved to Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (books) we could do that. Thanks for your note. --MelanieN (talk) 05:59, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi again, and thanks for your thoughtful note on my talk page. As I understand it, your feeling is that the publication of a book is a kind of news item, so that book reviews on publication fall under WP:ONEEVENT or WP:TRANSIENT or similar policy - and that there needs to be additional coverage about the continuing significance of the book in order for it to be notable. Am I summarizing you correctly?
I don't agree with that approach. I don't think it's realistic - my observation of the literary reporting scene is that even the most notable books get reviewed within a few months of their release and never again, and that requiring ongoing or longterm coverage is too severe a requirement. "Significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources" is all that is required by the current guidelines at WP:NB.
To sample the opinions of other editors, I thought I should do a review of past deletion discussions, a sort of WP:Common outcomes for books. Taking a look at the current Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Literature I find several discussions about books. Examples of the comments at these live discussions:

Arguing for Delete:

• "fails WP:BK; no reliable 3rd party references; no reviews; searching online databases like WorldCat doesn't show any hits "
• "Can't find any independent sources that would pass as reliable sources even mentioning the book in passing. The book exists, yes, but no one seems to have noticed it."
• "Amazon.com and Worldcat show no professional reviews."
• "Not independently notable. I too have been unable to find reviews. (I declined a imminent PROD to give myself time to check ). The only reliable way of making reasonably certain there are no reviews is to check both of the two professional indexes, Book Review Digest and Book Review Index"
• "No coverage in independent secondary sources."
• "I'm finding tons of places to BUY the book, but no news, no other books reference it, no reviews from WP:RS. Too new to be notable at this point. "

Note what these arguments have in common: delete because there is a COMPLETE LACK of reviews.

Arguing for Keep:

• Well, I couldn't find any arguments for "keep" in the current live discussions. (Face it, most of the books nominated for deletion are SOOOO deserving!) But here is an example of a discussion from a year or two ago (which I credit to myself as a "rescue" because I provided links to significant reviews and thus demonstrated to people's satisfaction that the book was notable). Some of the "keep" comments after I added those links to reviews:
• "Due to the two New York Times reviews; that's pretty significant coverage for a new book."
• "Concur with the above, there are sources that document notability."

Further arguments can be found in the Literature discussion archives. Here are some discussions which resulted in a "keep" decision: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Secrets of a Jewish Mother, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Price Theory: Economics is Mistaken, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mexican WhiteBoy. In all cases the EXISTENCE OF SIGNIFICANT REVIEWS was given as reason enough to keep. In cases where the result was "Delete" (aside from the usual self-published nonentities), the reason was often LACK OF REVIEWS.

Based on this, I believe that significant reviews on publication are sufficient to establish notability in the opinion of most editors, and furthermore that significant reviews on publication are exactly what WP:NB has in mind when it calls for "multiple, non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the book itself." I think your interpretation is novel - not an approach I have ever seen before, or found in a search of past discussions. So if you want to apply it you should probably first look for consensus at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (books). If you want to start a discussion there, feel free to copy our conversation over there as a start. In any case, thanks for a stimulating discussion! --MelanieN (talk) 23:42, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Another thing that occurs to me: if we adopted your rule that contemporary reviews don't count, it would completely preclude us from covering ANY new books, because we would be required to wait a few years to determine if the book turned out to be notable or not. --MelanieN (talk) 23:52, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful reply.

There are two issues, the main one being that it's very hard to distinguish ordinary "new release" reviews, from indiscriminate coverage. Obviously coverage could be either.

In some cases a book or product is launched and gets coverage due to promotional activity by the the publisher/manufacturer/creator or their PR agents. Publishers routinely try to get coverage for their books (as manufacturers do for their new products and product updates), and media routinely cover a wide range of new releases. In other cases a book indeed has significance - and perhaps eventually becomes a prizewinner, a top 10/30/100 bestseller, or has an impact on the wider world.

How do we tell which one a book is? I find myself coming back to basics. We don't do indiscriminate coverage, Misplaced Pages isn't a crystal ball, and if needed sources don't exist then it is fine to wait until they do.

We simply cannot tell in most cases whether a book at launch is significant or whether the interest is merely due to "new release" and transient (and nothing more). Even coverage in major papers is not really much evidence nor a predictor or a sign. The book (or any product) could fall flat and sell zero or few copies, or gain no traction, despite being listed in the New York Times "new publications" column. As with news, events, and people, brief but wide coverage doesn't always make them encyclopedically significant.

In other areas we handle this by waiting until better evidence exists, or else when it's expected to be notable, we might keep it - but without prejudice to relisting if time passes and it turns out it didn't achieve the notice that was initially anticipated.

All of these apply equally to books. Newspaper coverage of a new release by itself, merely signifies a book as one of the better new publications of the week/month. It doesn't always mean it will have encyclopedic significance. It doesn't say how it will be received or its impact or awards or other recognition in practice. It might be a brief spat of news reports and nothing else. So I think we can either wait until the outcome is evidenced to create the article, or create the article but without prejudice to deletion if the evidence doesn't materialize.

I take your point on past AFD closes, but wary of giving them too much weight. The question seems to stand as I asked it:

1. Is "significant publication review coverage" enough by itself to make a book notable?
2. If so can we move to say so explicitly at WP:NB?
3. If not, what else is needed and/or what weight is publication-related coverage to be given?

Thinking about these would probably help us (as a community) to agree on principles in this area, and clarify WP:NB for future. FT2  00:24, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

## Is "significant publication review coverage" enough by itself to make a book notable? ## Yes, I think it is. And IMO WP:NB already says that it is. But if you want to clarify that, the relevant talk page would be the appropriate place to try to do it. Please let me know if you do start a discussion there. --MelanieN (talk) 01:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

P.S. What is your response to my comment that according to this criterion you are proposing, recently published books could never (or hardly ever) be listed? Is that what you have in mind, or am I distorting your intention? --MelanieN (talk) 01:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Again: the reason I included the past AFD closes is to show that up to now, reviews on publication have been accepted by consensus as evidence of notability. Misplaced Pages operates by consensus, so if you want to impose this additional requirement, you will have to find others who agree with you, or convince them to agree with you. --MelanieN (talk) 01:28, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I'd of course let you know if I did, but I would hope we'd both consider it worthwhile to do so as a discussion point. I suppose my response is, what would my reaction be to a product review, software review, new band review etc - it's much the same. Books are another commercial product these days. Many get "new product" -type coverage on launch (not least because they are promoted and have media columns focused on them), not nearly so many ever make any kind of significant notice of an encyclopedic nature. We already accept that is the case with events, news, people, and (generally) bands, albums, websites, and other commercial products that may get a spat of notice when launched. I wouldn't put books on a pedetal, I'd expect by default, similar logic. How do we know a book is encyclopedic? It had an impact, got lasting notice, won awards, sold many copies, etc, same as any other product of someone's commercial business operation. I don't see us arguing the rest of these can't be assessed except on launch reviews or their brief if intense flurry of mentions.

To answer your next question therefore, try this analogy. A new user posts an article on their band, which got 3 reviews in mainstream press on their launch. You can't find any other coverage and there is no chart info on any albums because the albums haven't charted yet. Is this sufficient evidence their band is notable? How certain would you be? Apply the same question to a new software package some company brought out, or a new social website that got mentioned in a few newspapers on launch (but no evidence of traction or future interest). If 6 months after launch the social website or product then got no further attention at all, would it be notable for getting launch attention only?

As you rightly say, we work on consensus. I honestly don't mind if WP:NB is amended to say "review coverage alone is sufficient" or is sufficient in some cases (which?), or is usually insufficient. I want to clarify the issues as best we can between us though, and if necessary then get eyeballs and become clearer one way or another how it's viewed by the wider community. FT2  02:49, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't pretend to know anything about the bands/musician criteria here; that's not my thing. But I note that the wording at WP:BAND is identical to the wording at WP:NB and so I would assume that mainstream reviews of the band in major sources would qualify it, yes. The same identical wording also applies to WP:WEB. The fact is that new bands and new websites don't usually get written up in major reliable source publications without good reason. (If a brand new band that has never charted, gets major reviews, it is almost certainly because it IS notable for some reason.)
From your "answer-a-question-with-question" response, do I understand you to be confirming that, indeed, newly published books (and websites and musical groups) should not have Misplaced Pages articles, no matter how many substantial reviews they get?
We are talking in circles here. You are trying to apply this new criterion of yours to an increasing number of categories, all of which do seem to currently allow major reviews in mainstream reliable sources as evidence of notability. I accept that as the status quo and I don't think the criteria need to be amended, because I think the admissibility of reviews is clear enough as the guidelines stand.. --MelanieN (talk) 04:13, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

My reading of policies and guidelines is to be very wary of "on release" reviews of commercial offerings, which may not show any kind of enduring significance ("Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia"). Many users mistake or equate "significant coverage" for "encyclopedic topic", but verifiability, including verified or brief widespread coverage, isn't always going to be the same as encyclopedic significance or notability (as repeatedly noted in discussions). For the sake of future AFDs I'd like to be clearer on the extent to which we take publication or release coverage of commercial or media products as evidence of encyclopedic significance. I feel fairly strongly that we should obtain views and see what consensus is, and my personal view is that publication coverage should be taken very warily if it's the sole evidence. That said, I don't feel hugely strongly on the specific decision such a discussion should reach, my concern is more that we probably should discuss it. Whichever side consensus ends up on is fine preovided it's had careful thought and results in clarity of the area. FT2  09:09, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Be my guest. I think you and I understand each other's position pretty well by now and further discussion here would just be repetitious. Will you incorporate our discussion into your proposal to amend the guideline, or start fresh? BTW since you seem to feel the same criteria apply to music and to web pages (and maybe other areas), do you intend to start a discussion on those talk pages too? Because if WP:NB is amended, all the other pages that have identical wording should be amended as well. --MelanieN (talk) 14:58, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Dropping out for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Dropping out is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dropping out until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Student7 (talk) 18:49, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Core collapse

Please see the reply. Thank you. Regards, RJH (talk) 18:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

You could try posting a request for a review at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Astronomy. There are several astronomers who frequent that discussion page.—RJH (talk) 21:51, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

DDR4 SDRAM

Hi, I reviewed your entry at T:TDYK#DDR4 SDRAM, but under new rules you still need to review another article before yours is eligible for DYK. Regards,  Sandstein  08:17, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

RFA Question

Dammit, you just rearranged my brain. I hate when that happens.... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

DYK for DDR4 SDRAM

On 5 May 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article DDR4 SDRAM, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that next-generation DDR4 computer memory, developed since 2005, is the first of its family to discard multi-channel architecture, and the first to include 3D silicon stacking in its specification? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 00:02, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Notability amendment (September 2007)

I'm looking for clarification about this discussion: Misplaced Pages talk:Notability/Archive 17#Presumption. Its motive seems to be aimed at common sense in dealing with notability. For instance, a name and a phone number for several years strait in a phone book would not be sufficient grounds for notability, BLP1E articles can be merged to article about the event. The footnote in your proposed wording said "For example, adverts, announcements, minor news stories, and coverage with low levels of discrimination, are all examples of matters that may not be notable for the purposes of article creation, despite the existence of reliable sources" yet this clause is being used to justify the deletion of notable articles like iPad 2 which neither fails WP:NOT nor consists entirely of trivial coverage. Could you give a modern interpretation of what you proposed and also confirm whether iPad 2 could be presumed to meet those standards? TLDR? Marcus Qwertyus 02:57, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I'll try. Bear in mind that the thread you are citing was aimed at a specific kind of mistake that people make; there are many nuanced reasons why articles may be kept, deleted or merged.

The problem we often have at notability/AFD is that people get hung up on verifiability at the cost of forgetting encyclopedic-ness. The GNG is our way to gauge "wider notice", and as such the evidence used to show notability had to be considered with this point in mind: does it actually show that the wider uninvolved world treated the topic as being significant, to the point that we should record it in a reference work? So a repeated case that comes up is where there are reliable sources, but when you look at what they really show, they do not show what we're looking for, in an article and under WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE. The footnote you point to is simply some examples of the kind of "evidence" we sometimes get at AFD that really doesnt show anything for our purposes.

That answers your specific question. Regarding the merging of iPad 2 - we have a few other key criteria for stand alone articles, of which an old one is, if 2 topics are perceived to better handled in one article than multiple articles by other editors then we don't need 2 articles for them. A good example is that Intel's Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge processors are both notable, both very widely discussed and reported, and there are fundamental differences between them (they aren't the same thing, one has higher speeds, different announcements, 3D chip design, etc). But they are covered in the same article at the moment because despite all of this, Ivy Bridge is basically a Sandy Bridge derivative and for reference purposes splitting the article would reduce its usefulness or ease of use, not increase it. That could change if more information came out. Another example is DDR4 SDRAM which was for a long time merged with SDRAM and DDR3 SDRAM because it was not yet a "reality" in its own right. Once chips were actually created and more could be said, it was updated and a new article written. I am not an expert in the subject of iPads, but the decision to create separate articles, or separate sections in one article, is basically an editorial decision rather than a notability issue.

I hope this answers both the question you asked, and any you didn't! FT2  03:27, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the delayed reply. Maybe expect some reform of that rule. I think that as long as the topic has become a standalone article it can stay live. Anything else would be grey area and up to the decision of editors. Merging typically causes navigation issues if the information isn't localized and would kill readership if Google didn't rank the iPad 2 among its top search results. Marcus Qwertyus 16:30, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Could you please.....

take a look at the situation of User:Fittiesonkire, apparently the user place an unblock notice on her talk page and the user isn't blocked at all. Could you please handle the instance. mauchoeagle _(c) 20:20, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Already dealt with by another admin - thanks. FT2  20:29, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

RD5

Hi, FT2. I noticed that you played a major role in drafting the WP:REVDEL policy back in 2009, and you added what is now known as criterion RD5 ("Valid deletions under Deletion Policy, executed using RevisionDelete") to the draft. There is confusion about its intended use, and so an editor started a RfC which proposes its removal from the redaction criteria. Since you were the one who first introduced the criterion, I'm sure any insight you could provide would be useful. Thanks in advance. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 01:36, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#WikiGuide RfCs

Hi FT2. If you have the time and inclination, would you close and summarize Misplaced Pages:Wiki Guides/Draft RfC:Minimize talk page templates and Misplaced Pages:Wiki Guides/Allow socializing? My request at WP:AN two weeks ago has not attracted any uninvolved admins to close those two RfCs. Cunard (talk) 06:23, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I tend not to be an RFC closer -- apologies. Hopefully someone else will? FT2  09:12, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Okay, no worries. Do you know anyone who closes RfCs? No one at AN wants to close them. Cunard (talk) 00:04, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

E-mail

In response to your request, I could not figure out how to enable e-mail on my Misplaced Pages account, but if you have a question or comment relating to one of my previous edits, please feel free to leave a note on my UserTalk page. --TommyBoy (talk) 15:47, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Per your suggestion, I have enabled e-mail on my Misplaced Pages account although I still prefer using Talk pages for communication purposes involving Misplaced Pages. --TommyBoy (talk) 20:06, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Email

Hello, FT2. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

- 上村七美 (Nanami-chan) | talkback | contribs 03:39, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Word limit and BLP and flagged revisions

Hi FT2. This comment is made in my capacity as an arbitration clerk. I have removed your responses to other participants from the BLP and flagged revisions case request, because your statement was well in excess of the 500 word limit. As a reminder, the word limit is established in the introduction to WP:A/R/C thus: "All editors wishing to make statements should keep their statements and any responses to other statements to 500 words or fewer, citing supporting diffs where possible.") I will leave it to you to re-add the material that you want to keep, but please ensure that your statement does not again exceed the length restriction. Thank you. AGK 21:28, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Article history template

Hi FT2, I like your edits to Template:ArticleHistory, but are you sure dark green is the best color for "Milestones in this article's history" and the current status? It looks a bit out of place to me. (if you think it's fine, no worries) Ed  23:06, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I fully agree they need to stand out. I was thinking that blue would be good because it would match the links, but then I realized matching the links would be a bit confusing. Red has the same problem. Green is probably the best choice; it's visible and not confusing. The only potential problem could come from color-blind people.

I have no idea how to make that work. I only have a little knowledge of CSS and HTML, so I create templates by cutting-and-pasting sections from other templates. ;-)

Do we really need a "current status"? Doesn't it tell you the current status right above? (" ... has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria." / "... is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community." Or am I missing something? Ed  00:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Color blindness means it's hard to tell it's green. There's enough contrast there (easily) for most people to recognize the text, and see it as a non-black shade so it should still be ok I think. Not sure on the other - needs looking at. Thoughts? FT2  00:42, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, guess I should have looked at the WP article beforehand. I'm a history lover, not science. :-) As for the other, I don't think ArticleHistory is implemented before GA anyway, as those are WikiProject assessments, as opposed to community (GA, FA) assessments. Ed  01:25, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted your edits to the article history template per a talkpage request. Might I suggest using Template:ArticleHistory/sandbox as a testing ground before making changes that fundamentally affect how the readers see the template. Making 20 changes to a live version of a heavily used template seems a bit off. Testing generally shouldn't be done on a live template which is transcluded almost 25,000 times. I wouldn't have thought that I needed to say that to such an incredibly experienced editor as yourself. Your opinions about what the template needs are obviously welcome over at the talkpage. Thanks, Woody (talk) 10:59, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

The template by its nature can't be checked using preview, because the preview doesn't show the section being edited. You have to edit it, save it, then look at how it renders. For complex edits the sandbox would be appropriate but these were not complex edits. The only changes had been slight format changes - spacing, font style, and minor wording - and all intermediate versions worked fully and correctly. As the history shows, the edits took place within 40 minutes and then were completed. Your revert was about 22 hours after. No further changes were made in that time. However I've responded to the important points you do raise, on the template talk page. FT2  11:24, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

"The template by its nature can't be checked using preview": I am acutely aware of that, that's one of the reasons why there is a template sandbox, so you can preview your edits and test different styles, instead of filling up the edit history of the template with tests. You could then invite discussion about your version of the template and see whether there were any objections or improvements before it goes live and then you could have avoided any potential ill-feeling that might have arisen. Regards, Woody (talk) 11:54, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Tis true. I had figured that stepwise changes which didn't at any point "break" the template and whose sole adverse effect was to add to its history (not in itself harmful), completed in 40 minutes, would not be an issue to anyone. Sorry if it in fact was. FT2  12:00, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Yep, changing a template that is heavily used without discussion or any notification (and by testing it in main space) could cause some ill-feeling. I know you are only trying to improve the user's experience of the template but personally, I think the changes should have been discussed first. But hey, that is what BRD is for.

I've left a reply to your explanation on the article history talkpage. Essentially, I think the colours are the main issue here along with the excess space. Anyway, hopefully all can be worked out quickly on the template talkpage and hopefully it can be more useful to readers at the end of it. Regards, Woody (talk) 12:54, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Template:ANImove

Hello! You created this template. Shouldn't it say "This post is related to a specific problem, dispute, user, help request, or other narrow issue, and has been moved" (in other words, "is" should be added after "This post" to fix grammar)? Thanks in advance, HeyMid (contribs) 15:13, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

"Related" is past tense here - "This post related to X". FT2  17:55, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't that mean "and" should be removed from the text? HeyMid (contribs) 18:22, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

User:Foo Bar Buzz Netz

Hello. A new user by the name of User:Foo Bar Buzz Netz has recently been reverting edits by User:Noisetier, with edit summaries claiming that it is a sockpuppet of retired user User:Ceedjee. I cannot find an SPI for this, and the user claims that you conducted one, and told him/her about the sockpuppet. I am told that you can confirm this. Is this true? Brambleclawx 15:33, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Please check this out

Hi. Your name is used in vain at User talk:Foo Bar Buzz Netz. I don't believe the story but I blocked for 24. Please make it indefinite if it is bogus as I suspect (and accept my apology if it isn't). Zero 15:35, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Tentative response and a similar note on blocked user's talk page, with a request that the blocking admin (or any other admin) consider unbblocking while this is dealt with. FT2  21:53, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources

For medical articles we try to use more reliable source per WP:MEDRS. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:59, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks - and can you let me know which article this was? FT2  02:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Oops

Goofed. Very sorry.

FT2  02:26, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Mentioned in despatches

Hi, you have been mentioned in passing at AN/I. -- cheers, Michael C. Price 00:09, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I happened to mention drama reduction to Steven Zhang this week.

If some user repeatedly brings up long closed past matters, and the target bothers to argue it, they just wasted time they could have been spending improving the project, by arguing about stuff nobody else cares about.

Thanks for the note. I appreciate it. FT2  01:36, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

To be clear, if users do happen to engage in personal attacks, incivility and battleground activity in a gross or repeated manner, it should be passed to uninvolved users to handle even at the best of times. FT2  03:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. -- cheers, Michael C. Price 22:16, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Japanese swordsmithing article

Hi FT2,

I just have a quick question about the tamahagane wikilink that you added to the Japanese swordsmithing article last week. The tamahagane article was merged with the swordsmithing article several months ago, so the wikilink doesn't really lead anywhere. Is there a need for the link? Zaereth (talk) 00:09, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Not in that case. Thanks. FT2  00:19, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Cool. Glad I was able to help. I was just curious, because sometimes I find there's an underlying wiki-reason for something like that. Zaereth (talk) 23:47, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Links posted

Hi FT2, for what it's worth, I've added a few links to salient earlier discussions that you asked about at RfAr to the prior dispute resolution section. I'm sorry you never got a reply from anyone to your question; I'd always assumed those links were there. Cheers, --JN466 22:23, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment to Jeff Dean

Thank you for your comments. I intend to follow the correct path. I have asked Administrator User:Tedder to be my counseling administrator, a role he had suggested. I will ask him and others for help to avoid problems. I have started a new non-anonymous user page and will await unblocking before going further. I asked Tedder to "kill" Whoami_24 as soon as it is appropriate to do so. Thank you again for your excellent suggestions. Jeffrey M Dean (talk) 17:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Insemination central (Bodil).png

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Nomination for deletion of Template:Voluntary deadmin

Template:Voluntary deadmin has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. RL0919 (talk) 18:40, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of DDR4 SDRAM

The article DDR4 SDRAM you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold . The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needed to be addressed. If these are fixed within seven days, the article will pass, otherwise it will fail. See Talk:DDR4 SDRAM for things which need to be addressed. Arsenikk 08:33, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

New AfD of article you have worked on

Please see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/United States journalism scandals (3rd nomination). BigJim707 (talk) 14:37, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Talkpage alert

Your name has been mentioned in a discussion on User talk:Bishonen. Regards, Bishonen | talk 15:29, 17 July 2011 (UTC).

WT:REVDEL

What happened about Wikipedia_talk:REVDEL#RD5_removal_redux? It was about ready for an RFC, and I forgot about it, and now nothing's happened for 2 months. Did you forget too? :) Rd232 10:53, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Figured it was broadly agreed and issues broadly resolved. Shall we pick it up then? FT2  20:24, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it seemed about ready, and I don't anticipate an RFC being a problem. And it's not straightforward enough to just implement. Rd232 21:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree, it would need RFC. One question - should we set up 2 RFCs, as the RFC draft itself suggests - one for the general principle, and the other (separate) for specific REVDEL critieria which the community may or may not endorse, discuss, or make suggestions? FT2  11:03, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Changes made to RTV guideline in October, 2010

FT2, in a discussion about some rather specific language that was recently in the RTV guideline it was pointed out that you inserted this language to the guideline in October, 2010. Since there is no apparent discussion about the changes on the talk page it isn't clear to me why you made them. Could you shed some light on the subject? See . Much appreciated.Griswaldo (talk) 04:06, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Sure, commented at WT:AC. I'm tired (hard work at the moment) so it may be slightly fragmented, but hopefully helps. If you need more insight can you point me to some specific wording rather than "wording in general"? Thanks. Hope it helps! FT2  19:44, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Discussion regarding main user pages and U1

See Misplaced Pages talk:User pages#Deletion of main user pages on request, where I've pointed out that the disconnect being discussed comes from your major overhaul of the page in March 2010 (and seems to have been an innocent mistake on your part). –xeno 18:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

As you nobly pointed out, there was discussion of the rewrite, I think we must all have missed it. There was probably something that made me think that was the current status quo, but could easily have been incorrect. Either way it's moot, I agree, fix it. FT2  19:53, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Zoophiles

Well, they are mentally unwell. Keepslaws111 (talk) 19:28, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:ActiveDiscuss

Template:ActiveDiscuss has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. SchuminWeb (Talk) 03:17, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Noisetier/Ceddjee again

FYI: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foo Bar Buzz Netz (talk • contribs) 17:19, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

User:Foo Bar Buzz Netz

The Foo Bar Buzz Netz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) claims that you are aware of the users past account names. Is this true and is there a reason why this user, whose only edits on this website involve attempting to expunge edits by one other person, is allowed to use this account in this way? nableezy - 16:04, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm aware of the entire background. There is some privacy matter involved, and ArbCom has suggested privately that some of the issues concerned are probably best passed to the Functionaries team to decide how normal editing policies should be balanced with privacy.

Without touching on privacy it's going to be a bit vague, but hopefully this gives the gist of it. The user operating Foo Bar Buzz Netz has for a very long time tried to get action on a problematic issue related to WP:SCRUTINY and failure to disclose significant matters to fellow editors. The Functionaries team upheld his concern as valid. They reached consensus that policy was being breached and certain action was needed to fix this, but following claims related to privacy issues, the perceived breaches of policy continued yet this was not followed up with action, so the issue remained open.

Foo Bar Buzz Netz him/herself is not a complete innocent but in this matter his/her concerns were upheld and action was agreed to be needed. His/her previous and off-wiki conduct in the matter showed above average patience and willingness to follow dispute resolution despite a lack of productive response. He/she hasn't had the support expected, mainly since nobody seems to have been quite sure how to progress it. The issue is now quite old. Apparently patience has gradually run out and he/she has decided to try and take action to enforce the functionaries' decision alone, hence the removal of edits you ask about. As such, it's slightly hard to blame him/her in the circumstances.

That doesn't make Foo Bar Buzz Netz in the right, but it does suggest he isn't entirely in the wrong either; it implies strong mitigation and good faith. The issue that Foo Bar is concerned over should really be concluded one way or another, as it's gone on way too long. Resolving the underlying issue would probably resolve any current concerns over Foo Bar's actions, since he/she might be agreeable to dropping it all, if the underlying issue was finally and fairly resolved.

FT2  18:08, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Let me see if I understand this. A user is allowed to sock in order to get other socks blocked? Regardless of the rights or wrongs of Noisetter, is User:Foo Bar Buzz Netz allowed to sock as a response to that user's conduct? Is FBBN an editor in a. good standing, b. blocked or topic banned, or c. site banned? And is there a reason why this user is permitted to demand that SCRUTINY be followed with respect to Noisetter but is exempt from it himself? nableezy - 18:56, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

It's not FBBN who is "permitted to demand" any other user complies with WP:SOCK policy - that was decided and stated by Checkusers and the other user was formally told it. FBBN is not a complete innocent but he tried to do the right thing at the time: express a concern via appropriate routes. When the policy breach continued, he has taken action himself - apparently trying to enforce what was decided by Checkusers to the extent a non-admin is able, which at least permits some good faith.

The other user is answerable for his conduct and actions, because it was agreed by Checkusers they were improper and remain improper, although now quite long ago. It could be that FBBN needs attention too for reasons you give - and anyone could raise such a concern if they chose and felt he was editing improperly. Relevant policies:

• If you want to resume editing a topic area under a new account, you need to disclose past significant history in the topic area if any - including sanctions, blocks, warnings, etc. If not prepared to do so, don't edit that area, because other users have a right to know the track record of their co-editors in the topic. Also they may recognize you from your editing style and it'll then be completely public. (WP:SOCK, WP:CLEANSTART)

• If you vandalize, or get blocked or banned due to edit warring or POV pushing, you may be required not to edit for a time, or to agree to conditions or restrictions, but there is usually a way back if genuinely willing to behave.

These apply to both parties equally. FT2  21:49, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

cAll right, thanks for that reply. But you did not answer the most important set of questions. The user (FBBN) claims that you know who he is. Is he a user in good standing, one that is topic banned or otherwise restricted, or one that is site banned? nableezy - 23:12, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

FT2 is not at all at ease on this issue and his description lacks some points to give a completely different picture.

1. He puts the whole matter in front of the Arbcom who did not decide to follow him. The version he gives to you is the version that preceeded the case.

2. He disclosed information about contributors to FBBZ, as FBBZ proved in putting a screen capture of his email on the internet...

3. FBBZ is a sock of HupHollandHup ie NoCal100, which makes the "not completely innocent" sounds funny.

81.247.129.47 (talk) 23:36, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

@nableezy - I was less concerned about FBBN, mainly because as you say he's only used the account for one reason, to address a lapse elsewhere. A previous account of FBBN does have active sanctions. Now that the issue has is "known" on-wiki and has been dealt with, he should quickly keep his word to let FBBN "fade into oblivion" (per a redacted edit) and make sure that any future editing does not put himself in breach of policy. If his concern happens again and he cannot edit, there are thousands of other users who will raise the matter at SPI, ANI or the Functionaries list if it's a problem.

My advice really is that both should look carefully at their account(s) and actions, and comply with existing policies on editing conduct. That includes "sitting out" or properly appealing any active blocks or sanctions (both have been sanctioned for behavior), not creating new accounts or switching to IP editing without disclosure. It means changing the behaviors that led to any blocks or sanctions in the past. It usually means ceasing to edit contentious areas if unwilling to disclose a past account active in that area. But if either were to breach policies in future then the other also doing something wrong wouldn't be a reason not to act on it. FT2  23:55, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

@81.247.129.47 - Arbcom's comment was as I stated. They felt it was better handled by the Functionaries list and the privacy issue didn't need Arbcom review. That question was the reason for the request. Their response was as I described above. Your other point is about a confirmation of checkuser finding on a sock check backed with behavioral evidence and diffs. You can find literally hundreds of cases in the archives where Checkusers routinely examine behavioral and CU evidence and confirm openly that the stated accounts are to a high certainty operated by the same individual. Nothing unusual there at all. Whether a concern was brought to Checkuser attention on-wiki or by email, or any other way at all (see policy) doesn't affect this. FT2  23:55, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Im sorry, but no. If FBBN is in fact NoCal100, an account that has amassed an impressive number of sockpuppets whose purpose has been to harass other users (including, among others, myself), a multiple times banned editor, who himself has repeatedly violated RTV and SCRUTINY, and you know this(!?!?) that is a much bigger problem than a user whose only active block is one imposed at their own request (Ceedjee remains unblocked here, Noisieter is blocked at their own request) "evading" said self-requested block as an IP. Any edit by NoCal on Misplaced Pages is violating multiple policies, and an ArbCom imposed topic ban (which was imposed on two of his accounts in one ArbCom case). Do you know what prior accounts FBBN has used or not? He has said that you are aware of his identity. Is this true? If so, is it NoCal100? I have asked several times now, do you know what the prior accounts of FBBN are? And is he a banned user? And do you know if he has any other active accounts? nableezy - 01:26, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Do you intend to answer these questions? nableezy - 15:01, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Of course, but later on today. FT2  15:16, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

This was a user I have heard from in just one context - concern over another user. Talk was limited to that one issue. His statement that I "know" his identity should be read as meaning, I know at least one of his prior "proper" user accounts before FBBN, which is correct because he originally emailed me using wiki-mail which reveals the senders username. That account was not NoCal though. (For completeness - he also had names in email headers but they could be meaningful or pseudonyms, and they aren't public anyway.) FBBN is a more recent account and did not initially identify himself as the same user.

The core work on this case and the formal emails to the other user took place long before the creation of the FBBN account and off-wiki, when points like these weren't a visible or central issue. Noisetier claimed early on that if there was a complaint it came from a "notorious" user "NoCal" and I did not ignore this allegation. The very next day I replied to Noisetier:

"If you feel another editor is a reincarnation of a past user, or is evading a block, ban or restriction using a new account, then I would look at evidence of this equally, as well. If you think you have such a concern and want advice on what evidence is helpful or how to lay it out, ask." (Quoting my own email is fine!)

Other Checkusers, informed and more familiar with WP:ARBPIA, also didn't comment about any basis of concern. The concerns about Noisetier were well evidenced from diffs, valid, and endorsed by multiple Checkusers. Even if the user raising them had been blocked there isn't any rule stopping blocked users from asking Checkusers or the Functionaries list to review evidence of a WP:SCRUTINY breach. So NoCal was probably a bit of a distraction in the context.

I've tried to avoid getting too deep into this mess other than getting clarity on the SCRUTINY issue, since I am not focused on I-P disputes generally. If FBBN is an on-wiki issue then you already have my thoughts on handling it, as do the Checkuser team (by email). FT2  01:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Misplaced Pages:Single-purpose account

Misplaced Pages:Single-purpose account, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Single-purpose account and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Misplaced Pages:Single-purpose account during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Rainbow Dash !xmcuvg2MH 16:31, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Biting?

• Me? Hey... to be frank, the newbie was looking at Special:RecentChanges and SPAMMING the many newly registered accounts without bothering to look first into their edits before deciding which welcome template to use. I noted the one who was making a nonsensical edit on the page of Philippine Army and the newbie welcomed him nonetheless. Being a member of welcome committee, I think I was already going quite easy on the newbie. Thoughts? --Dave 13:16, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Fluffernutter got there too and said the same, only stronger. AGF aims to figure where someone's at and give them the benefit of the doubt if reasonable. It's uncommon but not unreasonable that this might be a new user who saw welcome templates and thought "I can be helpful that way". It doesn't hurt anyone to initially assume that. A nice first step could be to acknowledge what they are trying to do and explain why it's a problem, then encourage them to gain more experience so they aren't put off. If they still continue then a more direct followup could happen saying that it could cause problems and asking them to stop until they have more experience.

The concern was that with the best of intentions, your post dived in a bit hard - "why are you SPAMMING? Do you have hidden agendas we should know of? Artificially inflating your edit count by spamming without explicit permission is not okay". That assumes the user's here to spam, and virtually implies a negative motive, before giving them a chance or asking nicely. It sounds (even if it's not what you meant at all) that nobody except official approved welcomers is allowed to be friendly and welcome people. Do it gently, then watch and see if they respond or if a stronger word is needed. :) FT2  14:22, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

• Granted, I'm a cynic with the newbies (not all but some!) and I should have been more tactful with newbies but it is also exactly these newbies we are having our daily problems with on the pages of Philippine-related articles (Philippine Navy, Philippine Army, Philippine Air Force, etc etc). Vandalism, hoaxes, inflating figures, you name it! And of all the people the newbie had to welcome, he did so for a WP:SPA~! You'd noticed that's where my attention turned to him but not before that because he was never on my radar, to begin with. Why not AGF my effort? Am I not here to help? You guys all talk about don't bite the newbies, what about biting the oldies?? FWIW, Fluff should have been reprimanded or defrock for piling on and biting me! Anyway, I'm not the least surprised at how this had turned out, Admins stepping on another editor to climb even higher, correct me if I'm wrong in my perception now, that's how you guys are making the oldies feel these days. Yes, I'm not the only one who feels that way! --Dave 15:39, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Relax, seriously. This isn't that sort of thing. Yes he greeted an SPA. I doubt he checked what people edited, he's not experienced enough to think of that, so he greeted a bunch of people including someone who should have got a warning. Bad motivation? Probably not, probably best of intentions for all that one can tell. As posted on that page, you're not being bitten, and he's not being given a flower of complete perfection. He's had it explained what the issue is that you spotted, in a way that acknowledges he probably meant well and doesn't assume or deter him, and you got a couple of comments that 2 others felt your wording was a bit harsh, so that you can word such posts gentler another time and still have the desired effect without deterring a newcomer if they mean well. If you feel you want to see that as "admins v oldies" or "you guys" or "doing it to climb higher" then please think again, anyone can comment on anyone, and often do. In the gentlest way possible, understand all this says is a couple of people figured you can get the effect you want without being harsh. FT2  15:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

• See the continued harassment on my talk page? When I saw your response on the newbie's talk page, I did read between the lines and knew better than to reply after that but having someone piled on right after it was uncalled for! Thus my retort to you above, "biting of newbie is not allowed but biting of oldie is allowed?" Come on, how ambiguous can the meaning of AGF be on the part of Admin when some don't adhere to the spirit, and instead focusing on it in name? Granted, you've pointed out my mistake and that I should have been tactful, I accept that. On the other hand, having someone pile on right after that is inviting things to go on in a nasty circle, see WP:Assume good faith#Accusing others of bad faith. I don't give a fuck about the whole newbie blunder now but think about the long term consequences of other Admins constant blabbering of oldies must AGF this, AGF that. Isn't that an invite to more ill-feelings and bad karma? Think about it, man. Seriously I mean, you did great but its the others whom I've lost respect for, totally. --Dave 16:24, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Skype

Hey there. I'd like to discuss the details of your proposal with you, figure a voice chat is probably the best way. Let me know when you're availiable for a Skype chat. I've got a few ideas as well that perhaps we could form some sort of working proposal to go with and present to the community. Talk soon. Steven Zhang 02:53, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The inadequecies and future of dispute resolution

Hullo FT2, I read with interest your comments here on dispute resolution, and remembered an engaging IRC discussion on the topic earlier in the year. I wonder if you would be at all interested in writing a Signpost op-ed on the matter to provoke further reflection and debate? Regards, Skomorokh 06:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Sure, it's a long term thorn in the project's side, and really should have moved on and improved after this many years. FT2  09:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Ceejee/Alithien/Balagen yet again?

Hi, I recently read Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Noisetier/Archive, and I'm pretty certain this blocked user (Ceejee/Alithien/Balagen) is back again, this time as User:81.247.93.126. Same Belgium based ISP, same old POV pushing... Marokwitz (talk) 13:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Could very well be, but I'm not an I-P topic specialist and so I can't give a firm view. I suggest posting the evidence at WP:SPI and ask for views. FT2  13:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

See Foo Bar Buzz Netz (talk) 19:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

FT2- You've previously noted that Noistier must either disclose his previous IDs, leave the topic area, or be blocked. He's chosen to be blocked, but continued to edit around the lock by editing as an IP. Recently his block was lifted. Your intervention is now needed. Foo Bar Buzz Netz (talk) 19:47, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

"the account is relatively benign"

So it's okay for banned and blocked editors to sock so long as they're "relatively benign"? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 22:52, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

If you read the pages in full, the point I make is that his conduct is being used as a distraction from Noisetier's, and that's not okay. As I have said on this talk page, and in emails from 2010 and 2011, and in Noisetier's SPI case archive, if there is a concern over FBBN then anyone may act on it, but that's separate. It has no relevance to the question of disclosure or sock policy breach by Noisetier - and the Noisetier issue is being kept "clean" - the Noisetier SPI page is about Noisetier, not about other editors and should stay that way. To repeat to you what I have said before (and others have too) - if you feel action is needed about FBBN then we have policies and norms to do so, you don't need my say-so to do anything. My formal involvement in the case has been in considering how to address the disclosure issue, presenting evidence of the disclosure issue, and seeking consensus on that point. I have not chosen to block either party despite both acting against our policies, preferring to deal with that aspect only and leave any blocks for others. FT2  23:03, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I understand. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:15, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

And in related news, your name is mentioned here. nableezy - 12:38, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

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It appears that User:HeadleyDown with a sock/meatpuppet is back at NLP page

I've raised this at ANI William M. Connolley (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I've removed it - it isn't appropriate content given its links. FT2  17:02, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

You (or another admin) probably needs to go through the anon's other edits - such as http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Encyclotadd&diff=prev&oldid=458320685 - because the same links are spammed around William M. Connolley (talk) 17:06, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I see you've asked at ANI - many eyeballs make light work and I'm working here at the moment. Can the rest be left for others, as there may be quite a few of them? if not I'll try but it could be a while.

To 76.243.106.37 - the removal is because we don't do "outings" or post this kind of info here - "Misplaced Pages is not a battleground" means when others start a battle (or continue it after 6-7 years as Headley has), even so we try not to "battle" back but to minimize disruption. So some kinds of external links, claims etc cannot be left standing on Misplaced Pages's pages, even though obviously they would be interesting to read. I wanted to explain that in case you weren't sure what to make of their removal. FT2  17:17, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I posted the same links on many of the other users' talk pages... because I don't want to see them go through the same misery that HeadleyDown put the previous editors through in years previous. So sue me! 76.243.106.37 (talk) 17:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

No, I don't think that's necessary. It's the classical problem of having to live up to a higher standard, against those who don't. The information matters, but as a wiki we need to generally keep what have become known as "attack links" off it - and thats so even if the person they address were indeed a proven hard-core abuser. It does make fighting abuse tough, but not impossible. For example, a person defamed by HeadleyDown would have a legitimate right to take legal action, but we as a community very likely would not do so. They have a right legally to post his personal information on a blog, but we as a community have taken a view it should not appear on our public wiki. The Foundation has a right to seek a court order to prevent a heavy abuser accessing the site for which that information may help, but individual wiki editors don't have that right.

None the less if the information is valid, those defamed may wish to privately know who their defamer is - it's a well established legal right to the point that one can readily get a court order to name the person behind a genuinely defamatory or harassing IP (it's happened for blogs, twitter etc already). The community (or trusted users such as Checkusers and Arbitrators) may wish to know it if it will help them identify other socks and directly reduce editing abuse. But we don't want any part of any ensuing off-site battle, and we would wish to avoid Misplaced Pages being used to fuel any part of it.

That said, the good faith and intention is appreciated. Posting links to his alleged personal info isn't likely to help directly in any way I can see though, and those links have to be removed (unless actually serving a project purpose and within project approaches which doesn't seem to be the case here). It's tough to act to a higher standard, especially against someone with this kind of track record, but hopefully this explains why. FT2  18:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

That's fair enough, I suppose. I just saw a repeat of the same old soap opera developing -- the same arguments returning-- different details, but the same form ... the POV editors dragging in dubious citations and then crying Assume Good Faith, etc, while not showing assumptions of good faith to anyone else. I look at the talk pages for other pages, and I don't see these kinds of arguments, not even on controversial subjmects such as Joseph McCarthy! 76.243.106.37 (talk) 18:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I have checked the evidence out myself a bit. If you want to email to discuss any of this, do go ahead. But our policy is that issues of "user X = person Y" should never be treated as confirmed on the public wiki. You'll find this in Arbcom archives, cases where we know perfectly well who users X and Y are but all we say is "Users X and Y are individuals with a personal interest in the topic". The reason being, the rest just doesn't matter for public wiki editing purposes. At the end of the day the point is, even if the knowledge was perfect and confirmed, how would knowing HeadleyDown is person X rather than persons Y or Z help us prevent editing abuse of the wiki? At that point - and only at that point and for that purpose - might it be relevant for a few trusted users to have the formal evidence, off-site. FT2  18:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, in this case, knowing an identity is useful. . Basically, we now have the smoking gun as to WHO HeadleyDown actually is. Knowing WHO he is could make future sockpuppet confirmations go faster -- as we have now have information about the puppetmaster (whose various names sometimes reflect part of his life experience ).

. 76.243.106.37 (talk) 18:51, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I was serious, we really as a community try to avoid this kind of post on-wiki. If you want to discuss the evidence, by all means create a temporary Misplaced Pages account with email enabled - my email link is in my signature. But this kind of stuff should not go on-wiki, even if it might pertain to an alleged identification of a notorious abuser, dishonest person, and defamer. FT2  19:02, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

SP thoughts

Hullo there, any more thoughts about what we discussed? Regards, Skomorokh 21:46, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Ping. Skomorokh 08:47, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

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NOT and stuff

Hi FT2, I just wanted to let you know, it's not that I disagree with you: I don't disagree with what you are saying - I disagree with the change. If we were to look at things logically, wp:censor wouldn't be needed at all. Everything in it is covered by properly using other policies: "is it relevant, cited to reliable sources, included in a fashion that does not portray a bias or push a POV?" Alas, that's not how people work, and the changes to wp:censor were made in response to that. IIRC, they were done (roughly a year and a half ago, give or take) in response to the belief that clarification was needed because of the Muhammad images and Scientology "issues" that arose. Inotherwords, done with a reason because even though policy already covered such, it wasn't enough. And currently, it still doesn't seem to be. We've got editors trying to censor articles on abortion, images from Muhammad, articles on Islam and Muhammad, articles on Christianity (and various sects thereof) due to religious beliefs even with such spelled out in wp:censor. Do we really need to have laws telling people that murder is wrong? Perhaps not in a world of fully logical or fully compassionate people. This case is somewhat similar as beliefs are a strong thing. And many people do not equate their beliefs with "organization" or any other such wording. As it is, there is a multi-front campaign going on (which you may have noticed already) to change wp:censor to allow censoring of content that is religiously objectional. If anything, due to the nature of humans as we are, I'd suggest making sure it covers as many major permutations as possible. And currently, the two biggest are religion (personal religious beliefs as well as the beliefs of a religious organization) and politics/nationalism. I'd propose policy should generally be written to spell out things for those who need it clearly defined for them (hence the existence of wp:censor at all) - as opposed to thinking that people will look at all the policies and guidelines detached from emotion and bias. Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | /_CN 21:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I see what you're saying but I disagree. WP:CENSOR says, we don't omit, avoid or remove content because it's offensive or undesirable to any external party or editor. We omit, avoid or remove content only if it's judged by editor consensus to improve the quality of our reference information by doing so. This might be by adding a positive (eg it adds good knowledge, it's a better image), or by removing a negative (eg it was poorly chosen or tended to breach an editorial policy, so that removing it improves our reference material or policy compliance). It might be by explicit consensus (a discussion) or implicit consensus (BRD and nobody reverts or objects).

What you're citing is closer to NPOV/NOR, where we are removing material not because it meets our editorial criteria but we don't like it, but because it isn't of encyclopedic quality in the first place so it breaches 5P ("Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia").

Of course they do all overlap, eg one can cast NPOV/WEIGHT as a kind of censorship policy ("when do we censor fringe views") or WP:V ("when do we censor less well reported information") if one wanted. So they do blur and overlap, but overall WP:CENSOR can be very direct and simple: We remove material because it can be improved, doesn't meet our policies, or is legally problematic, not because it breaks some external rules or some kinds of people want us not to show it.

I'm in favor of WP:CENSOR explaining the key point - we don't censor because you don't like it or you believe it should be secret. We do remove material for other reasons though and here's an outline of when you may expect to see material removed.

If you do want to include "religions" then try this: - "Misplaced Pages is not a member of any organization, religion, or political group, so rules by other bodies which are binding on their members carry no weight in any discussion within Misplaced Pages".

FT2  01:21, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, I see what you are saying. I am kinda equating "my POV (ie: beliefs, religious, political, offense level) is this" combined with relevance, and I can see how it's not a full fit, now that you mention it. On the whole objectional material stuff, I've got no idea how to ever truly "win" that (ie: figure out how to come up with something that works for everyone). People's opinions, even without religion or politics in play, are too divergent. It's ironic in a way that one of the biggest strengths of Misplaced Pages is the diversity that causes that - and that it's also what causes some of the greatest conflicts. ;-)

As for the change above, I think that's virtually perfect. Though I'd suggest "in any article or discussion within" (itals only to indicate added text) - and thanks for the response. Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | /_CN 14:00, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Request for feedback on User:Timeport101/Verax NMS

Hello FT2, thanks for a great feedback you gave me on User:Timeport101/Verax NMS. I've implmented your suggestions and found additional references. I'd like to ask you about your opinion on this. I'm not sure if I cited refrences 100% correct (research papers and workshop materials).--Timeport101 (talk) 13:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

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Question for you.

Found at . Thanks! Hobit (talk) 18:05, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Why Misplaced Pages Needs Marketers

Hi FT2. Thanks for the link on my blog post on how COI contributors can improve Misplaced Pages. After your post I spent hours culling through the history of this policy discussion and resolved that a more informal community-approved certification-based approach had not been discussed and seems like it could address the significant issues of a formal policy that would encourage/endorse paid writing more broadly than is appropriate.

I posted my pitch to Jimmy Wales on his Talk page, since he was the primary advocate against paid writing policies in 2009, for - I think - very good reasons after reviewing the detailed discussions. A certification model offers a more compelling alternative I think than policy. Instead of banning or encouraging anything, it just sets up a model where paid-for contributors are still more motivated to support Misplaced Pages's goals than that of their clients - in a way neutralizing their COI all-together.

If you don't hear from me, you'll know that Jimmy executed his threat to ban a user he finds out is paid. Still - if you feel like continuing the discussion, I've started it on Jimmy's talk page.

King4057 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC).

please discuss the Higgs at the Higgs talk page

See Talk:Higgs_boson#What_is_a_lead.3F. Other people than you and i may wish to discuss this. Boud (talk) 12:16, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

RevDel RfC?

Hey, FT2. I noticed that despite all of our discussions at WT:REVDEL last spring, no changes ever occurred as far as the RD5 issue goes. Perhaps this is because, of the principals in the discussion, I am no longer around much and Rd232 rode off into the sunset. Regardless, I think we should an open a RfC on this issue once and for all. Shall we get the ball rolling? A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 23:05, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes.

One thing, because the discussion's stale let's briefly both look at the past discussion to re-check that we're both still comfortable with presentation for RFC and the question to ask (as I remember it was all, or almost all, done). Re-check it's clearly described so participants will not misunderstand the actual aim of the RFC. Then do it. FT2  23:34, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Silk Road

I don't suppose you could be a little more specific and link a page or transcript or something? --Gwern (contribs) 01:22 16 December 2011 (GMT)

I was listening to today's SOPA markup hearing live at http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/mark_12152011.html. As a public hearing it'll be reliably sourceable to the official transcripts of that hearing when published, and can be verified in the meantime by anyone who can locate and listen to the video or audio of the hearing. I think I have a specific time to within a few minutes: 17:47 EST (22:47 UTC), because my browser history shows that as the time I googled "silk road" to find out more.

I started this draft 25 minutes later at 18:13 EST (23:13 UTC) before realizing I'd clicked the dab page for "Silk way" not "Silk road" and an article existed, at which point I added the cite to the article.

So I'm pretty sure it's easily verifiable to official sources. FT2  02:35, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

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Article Feedback Tool - notes and office hours

Hey guys! Another month, another newsletter.

First off - the first bits of AFT5 are now deployed. As of early last week, the various different designs are deployed on 0.1 percent of articles, for a certain "bucket" of randomly-assigned readers. With the data flooding in from these, we were able to generate a big pool of comments for editors to categorise as "useful" or "not useful". This information will be used to work out which form is the "best" form, producing the most useful feedback and the least junk. Hopefully we'll have the data for you by the end of the week; I can't thank the editors who volunteered to hand-code enough; we wouldn't be where we are now without you.

All this useful information means we can move on to finalising the tool, and so we're holding an extra-important office hours session on Friday, 6th January at 19:00 UTC in #wikimedia-office. If you can't make it, drop me a note and I'll be happy to provide logs so you can see what went on - if you can make it, but will turn up late, bear in mind that I'll be hanging around until 23:00 UTC to deal with latecomers :).

Things we'll be discussing include:

• The design of the feedback page, which will display all the feedback gathered through whichever form comes out on top.
• An expansion of the pool of articles which have AFT5 displayed, from 0.1 percent to 0.3 (which is what we were going to do initially anyway)
• An upcoming Request for Comment that will cover (amongst other things) who can access various features in the tool, such as the "hide" button.

If you can't make it to the session, all this stuff will be displayed on the talkpage soon after, so no worries ;). Hope to see you all there! Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 04:50, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

May I ask for your assistance?

Hi,

Are you still interested in the idea of at least some non-admins being able to view deleted pages? I understand that the proposal was shot down previously by foundation counsel; however I believe I have at least two possible answers to their concerns.

One possibility is to make this prospective (apparently the antonynm of retrospective although I'm not so sure) - that is to say that only edits deleted after its implementation can be viewed. For revisions such as libelous edits or copyright violations and so on, there can be a hard delete, lying some way between this soft delete and oversight, which will function just like a present deletion. Admins could also have the power to toggle a deletion from hard to soft (or to undelete) - so selected deletions made before this feature is implemented could be made soft.

The second possibility is to introduce a procedure somewhat like RFA where users are given permission to view deleted edits by the community. As admin privileges are currently granted not just based on trust in general, but also on trust that the tools will be used appropriately, there is a much greater pool of users who would be eligible to be given this permission.

And of course, it is perfectly possible to use both of these systems at once.

I have cross posted this to a few users who were active in the discussion in 2008 - I don't feel this is a violation of CANVASS because I have not made the proposal myself - the reality is I need an experienced Misplaced Pages with some "street cred" to make it. I already attempted to steer a discussion of a similar proposal this way, but sadly that discussion is irretrievable (see here - or even better, don't!). Because I have posted this to a few users, I would be greatful if you would reply at User_talk:Egg Centric/Proposal and perhaps we can get a discussion going!

Thank you!

Egg Centric 22:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

P.S. - silly me, I forgot to link to the original discussion in 2008. Here it is: Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(proposals)/Persistent_proposals/Straw_poll_for_view-deleted

It's had some discussion in the background, and I know a couple of people at WMF are considering what's possible but it may take some time, I'm not altogether clear why there's an issue myself but I do know it's being revisited at some point and I hope to get a better idea then. Until that happens, no point really asking for a community review, best be patient. I'll try to get some info on it but it could take time. FT2  23:24, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, look forward to hearing what comes next! Egg Centric 23:32, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

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Murder in English law

Hello. I have undone one of your edits. Liability to custody for life depends on age at the time of conviction as well as at the time of the murder. Suppose, for example, that a person is aged 19 when he commits a murder. If he is aged 20 on the date on which he is convicted he will be sentenced to custody for life, as you have written. But if he is aged 22 on the date on which he is convicted, he will not be sentenced to custody for life, as you have it, but will instead be sentenced to imprisonment for life. The reason for the "three bullets" that were employed in the article is that I could not find a way to accurately state this in a single sentence. James500 (talk) 04:05, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

The sources do not say that these sentences are "legal terms". I have never heard that expression used in this context. In light of its usual meaning, I do not think it is a good idea to use it in that article.

The sources are also phrased as commands. The word "used" seems to me to suggest that these commands are, in actuality, always followed. The sources are not capable of supporting that. Conversely, that word does not seem to me to clearly indicate that there is a command in the first place. And it is the command, and not the practice, that the article is concerned with. I used the word "must" because there is a case that says that "'shall' means 'must' not 'may'". Archbold and Halsbury also use it.

I am not convinced that custody for life and imprisonment for life are available only if it "appears to the court" that the offender was aged 18 or over at the time of the murder. Just looking at the face words of the Act, I think that they might be available in a case where the court has no idea how old the convicted person was at the time of the murder, and only knows that he is now under or over 21. I think that we would be wanting to cite a case on that point before saying something like that.

I think that "perpetrator" is not usually used in England and Wales and that "offender" is more likely. I might run an advanced search on Legislation.gov.uk to check this.

I don't think that the new style proposed is an improvement in any way at all. In fact, I don't see any need to change the style at all. I am tempted, apart from inaccuracies, to revert the changes to the passages in question with the rationale "purely stylistic change that adds nothing". James500 (talk) 06:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Indictments

The Indictment Rules 1971, according to Archbold, have the words "statement of offence" and "particulars of offence" as headings, and not the way you have them, and there is no colon. (Both headings and the actual statement of offence are also supposed to be centered but I do not know how to do that.) James500 (talk) 06:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. Not sure I agree though, so I'm copying this to the talk page (so others can comment too) and will comment there shortly. Thanks! FT2  06:41, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Article Feedback Tool - things to do

Hey guys! A couple of highly important things to do over the next few weeks:

• We've opened a Request for Comment on several of the most important aspects of the tool, including who should be able to hide inappropriate comments. It will remain open until 20 January; I encourage everyone with an interest to take part :).
• A second round of feedback categorisation will take place in a few weeks, so we can properly evaluate which design works the best and keeps all the junk out :P. All volunteers are welcome and desired; there may be foundation swag in it for you!

Regards, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 18:49, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

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Your input is needed on the SOPA initiative

Hi FT2,

You are receiving this message either because you expressed an opinion about the proposed SOPA blackout before full blackout and soft blackout were adequately differentiated, or because you expressed general support without specifying a preference. Please ensure that your voice is heard by clarifying your position accordingly.

Thank you.

Message delivered as per request on ANI. -- The Helpful Bot 16:30, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Question on Jensen (1969)

Hi. I am the user who created How Much Can We Boost IQ and Scholastic Achievement?. I saw your comments on the Keep decision in the recent AFD. My question: Do I need to worry about this article being deleted soon? My plan was to wait for the AFD to finish and then, assuming it was a Keep, to add more material. (I agree that the article lacks context and needs to be expanded. In fact, I like to think that aprock will like my additions.) But I hesitated to do that before because a) I wasn't sure if making lots of changes was appropriate behavior during an AFD and b) I did not want to devote a lot of time if the article was going to be deleted anyway. Would adding more material now be considered rude since aprock (and maybe others?) seem so unhappy with the AFD result? Yfever (talk) 20:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for checking. In simple terms, an article can be improved during AFD and this is encouraged, especially if the problem that brought it to AFD is one that could be fixed.

(For example if it's awfully written and can be cleaned up, or lacks evidence of notability or sources and those can be added, or if it's not clear that it is significant in its own right independent of other pages and this can be shown from sources.)

There's no obligation to do so, and your reasons for not doing so seem pretty sensible. I would say the opposite of what you suggest is more likely. Right now some users consider it doesn't merit its own article, there isn't much to say about it independently, or it would only lead to POV and biased writing if someone did add material. Adding material to a high standard is likely to reassure and help, not upset and definitely not be seen as "rude". Worth checking, the courtesy is good.

Also if an article decision were referred to deletion review then it will be considered whether the close was appropriate. If so, it's best not to make huge changes at that point (although no need to undo any or stop completely) - let people consider it in a relatively stable state.

You do need to be careful to avoid POV here, which may mean doing quite a bit of research in Google, Google Scholar, Google Books etc (or any resources you have). Think what you'd expect to find on an article on a paper, or look at other articles on papers. For example, what was its background context, how did it come about, what (if any) its publication history if unusual, what responses (immediate or longer term), and do we have sources that sum up its legacy in a balanced manner. Remember this article is to educate on the papers, not really the external dispute. So it can mention other things, have sections on them, link to them, note them, but primarily its focus should be "tell me about the papers and their context and consequences".

I'd suggest go step at a time, and be willing to wait for reactions. If you judge it poorly, you'll get them, that's not necessarily a problem but this topic may need extra care in writing and research to ensure it isn't just seen as "I told you so" and "just POV on the Race and IQ dispute".

I'm sure a good article exists - good luck in creating it! If you want an eye on potential material, I know nothing about it but you can always ask. Another suggestion might be the NPOV noticeboard - post briefly saying you're hoping to expand this article, it's a paper with some contentious history, and would appreciate users uninvolved in the "race and IQ" area willing to keep an eye on it and help ensure it keeps to a high standard.

Finally, when you've done what you feel right and believe it's well written and stable, and any disputes are resolved (it's a paper so hopefully that's easier to achieve), consider seeking Good Article standing for it, which is a nice standard to go for if you haven't tried to get an article through GA before. FT2  20:31, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice! I will give it a shot, mostly using material from other parts of Misplaced Pages. Yfever (talk) 20:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

If you use material that others have written, be careful to attribute it to them. Plagiarism (using others work as if your own without attribution) is taken seriously. The key guideline here is Misplaced Pages:Copying within Misplaced Pages. A "good enough" way is to put a note in the edit summary referencing the original page, to be absolutely clear you are not trying to take credit for others' work. Directing others to that article or its history at minimum will show good faith and you should be fine. FT2  20:50, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

SOPA initiative

Hello. You have a new message at Misplaced Pages:SOPA initiative/Blackout screen designs#Oppose 2's talk page.

On a second point, the first debate shouldn't be attributed to prototype 1. That's not a good way to hold a run-off vote, since the original question was black v. white and a third prototype wasn't an option until afterward. It pollutes the data and makes consensus much more difficult to evaluate for a myriad of statistical reasons.   — C M B J   06:22, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll make a mock-up of it for you that reduces the amount of supplemental text by 20% or so.   — C M B J   06:57, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Hello. You have a new message at Misplaced Pages:SOPA initiative/Blackout screen designs#Oppose 2's talk page.

Hello. You have a new message at Misplaced Pages:SOPA initiative/Proposed Messages#Arbitrary break 1's talk page.

RevDel RfC? (follow up)

With the holidays behind us, I think now would be a good time to hold the RfC on changing the revision deletion policy, about which I dropped you a message approximately a month ago. I reviewed the proposed language we were discussing last spring, and it strikes me as just fine. The only thing I would question is the part which suggests possible replacements for RD5. First of all, I think we can/should consider RD7 (banned users' edits) a dead proposal, based on the RfC on that matter, which was actually completed. Second, while the proposed replacements which would parallel CSD#U3 and CSD#G9 could both potentially be incorporated into the RevDel criteria, perhaps they shouldn't be proposed in this RfC. Including those proposals in this RfC might be a bid to do two too many things at once. Just look at WT:REVDEL#Proposed changes and how muddled it got, and that was because only two distinct proposals were being put forth! Your thoughts? A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 03:35, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Best wait till after January 18-19, SOPA's taking my attention and will take others' too. Maybe both look at it in about a week? FT2  03:40, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Certainly. I'll ping you then. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 03:43, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I've started the RfC on the talk page here. I reviewed everything carefully and tweaked Rd232's proposal a bit, and I think that the current text of the proposal is in line with the ideas we agreed upon in May. If there are any changes you would like to make, I welcome you to do so. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 16:25, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Article Feedback Tool

Hey guys; apologies for the belated nature of this notification; as you can probably imagine, the whole blackout thing kinda messed with our timetables :P. Just a quick reminder that we've got an office hours session tomorrow at 19:00 in #wikimedia-office, where we'll be discussing the results of the hand-coding and previewing some new changes. Hope to see you there :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:14, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

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Article titles

Hi , did you know we don't quote article titles, they are the titillation, the eye catcher and that writers are generally allowed a degree of license with titles? Your addition that , ...was described as "hypocritical" by Forbes,(why did you add the quotation marks?) using this article to support it was imo not very correct at all - the word hypocrisy was not in the article at all and it was not that anyone was being described by Forbes as anything at all. Even if the title of the article was actually worthy of reporting (which it isn't - ever) you would rather need to attribute it to the writer not the publication. Youreallycan 22:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Titles are generally designed for titillation. However this one specifically stated that Forbes identified the person as a hypocrite; it's no less quotable as something Forbes said than when the Daily Mail declared Norris and Dobson to be "murderers" (1997) in the murder of Stephen Lawrence case. (The case itself was reopened 10 years later and came to trial recently, the two were found guilty). A headline is a reliable source for a plain statement that X said Y. In this case it's a reliable high-quality source that Forbes called the person a "hypocrite". FT2  22:35, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Forbes also is not in the article. I will leave it with you - I will ask at the noticeboard. Youreallycan 22:46, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

(Quotation marks are for the usual reason, because it's an actual quote, that's the specific term used. FT2  23:09, 21 January 2012 (UTC))

This is the title - PIPA Weakens as SOPA Gets Hypocritical - the only mention of the word hypocritical - the article was not written by Forbes and Smith is not named in the title. I am of the position that your addition (since removed) was basically your editorial license on top of the original editorial license which created a completely undue and basically, false statement. Youreallycan 23:13, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Let's solve that then, I think the same issue's been mentioned and handled with a different approach to wording elsewhere that might work. For BLP's extra caution is sensible - especially for negative matters. Will have a go at it shortly. FT2  23:21, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

No - its not going back into the BLP in any form - Your campaign employs someone to create a campaign website and that is that, the subject has no personal involvement or personal responsibility in what pictures are uploaded to it. The website was only tangentially connected to him, was run by a company and content about the website and any minor claims to a picture not correctly attributed there does not belong at all in his BLP. - Youreallycan 23:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Disagree, sorry. This wasn't some random matter. It was discussed on at least 3 major, reputable news media - Time, Atlantic Wire, and Forbes - and a number of other reliable sources. In each case, it was directly commented on and considered as a reflection on or negative point to the man, not some unknown subordinates. It gained significant attention in that whole editorials focused on this one issue (ie not merely "in passing"). It was raised as a discussion point for, and in the context of, his sponsorship of PIPA, that his own office had used infringing material on his own website. Had it been deemed "minor" by the mainstream, sites like these would not have published whole articles on it using terms like "hypocritical" and in one case "stealing". I chose the milder of the two. FT2  23:57, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

(As an aside, other coverage - reliable sources but I think less authoritative or less high quality for a negative matter - describe him as "a copyright violator", "caught red-handed", or "involved in copyright infringement") FT2  23:58, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Clearly I strongly disagree with your position - but as you are insistent, I await your desired addition presented for discussion at the BLP thread. Youreallycan 00:00, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Megaupload

Responded to you on the Megaupload talk page. Jheald (talk) 22:45, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:SOPA tweets 23.00 UTC 18 January 2012.png

Thanks for uploading File:SOPA tweets 23.00 UTC 18 January 2012.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Armbrust, B.Ed. _{about my edits?} 02:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. FT2  21:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

office hours

Another notification, guys; Article Feedback Tool office hours on Friday at 19:00 UTC in #wikimedia-office :). If you can't attend, drop me a note and I'll send you the logs when we're done. We're also thinking of moving it to thursday at a later time: say, 22:00 UTC. Speak up if that'd appeal more :) Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:18, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

MSU Interview

Dear FT2,

My name is Jonathan Obar user:Jaobar, I'm a professor in the College of Communication Arts and Sciences at Michigan State University and a Teaching Fellow with the Wikimedia Foundation's Education Program. This semester I've been running a little experiment at MSU, a class where we teach students about becoming Misplaced Pages administrators. Not a lot is known about your community, and our students (who are fascinated by wiki-culture by the way!) want to learn how you do what you do, and why you do it. A while back I proposed this idea (the class) to the community HERE, were it was met mainly with positive feedback. Anyhow, I'd like my students to speak with a few administrators to get a sense of admin experiences, training, motivations, likes, dislikes, etc. We were wondering if you'd be interested in speaking with one of our students.

So a few things about the interviews:

• Interviews will last between 15 and 30 minutes.
• Interviews can be conducted over skype (preferred), IRC or email. (You choose the form of communication based upon your comfort level, time, etc.)
• All interviews will be completely anonymous, meaning that you (real name and/or pseudonym) will never be identified in any of our materials, unless you give the interviewer permission to do so.
• All interviews will be completely voluntary. You are under no obligation to say yes to an interview, and can say no and stop or leave the interview at any time.
• The entire interview process is being overseen by MSU's institutional review board (ethics review). This means that all questions have been approved by the university and all students have been trained how to conduct interviews ethically and properly.

Bottom line is that we really need your help, and would really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. If interested, please send me an email at obar@msu.edu (to maintain anonymity) and I will add your name to my offline contact list. If you feel comfortable doing so, you can post your name HERE instead.

If you have questions or concerns at any time, feel free to email me at obar@msu.edu. I will be more than happy to speak with you.

Thanks in advance for your help. We have a lot to learn from you.

Sincerely,

Jonathan Obar --Jaobar (talk) 19:23, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

FT2 HD possibility

Hi FT2, is there any private messageing that I can contact you on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enemesis (talk • contribs) 18:12, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Article Feedback Tool newsletter

Sorry for the radio silence, guys :). I just wanted to let you know that we're planning on starting a new round of hand coding, which you can sign up for here. This will be the final round (honest!), and is basically because we found some really interesting results from the last round that blew our collective mind. It's important to check that they weren't a fluke, though, and so a bit more work is needed.

If you have any questions, drop a note on my talkpage - and if you know anyone who would be interested in participating, please tell them about it! We'll be holding an IRC training session in #wikimedia-office at 18:00 UTC on the 21st of March to run through the tool and answer any questions you may have. Thanks! :) Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:41, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

File:NativeDeerPlate.jpg listed for deletion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:NativeDeerPlate.jpg, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Cloudbound (talk) 22:38, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Article Feedback Tool updates

Hey all. My regular(ish) update on what's been happening with the new Article Feedback Tool.

Hand-coding

As previously mentioned, we're doing a big round of hand-coding to finalise testing :). I've been completedly bowled over by the response: we have 20 editors participating, some old and some new, which is a new record for this activity. Many thanks to everyone who has volunteered so far!

Coding should actively start on Saturday, when I'll be distributing individualised usernames and passwords to everyone. If you haven't spoken to me but would be interested in participating, either drop me a note on my talkpage or email okeyeswikimedia.org. If you have spoken to me, I'm very sorry for the delay :(. There were some toolserver database issues beyond our control (which I think the Signpost discussed) that messed with the tool.

New designs and office hours

Our awesome designers have been making some new logos for the feedback page :) Check out the oversighter view and the monitor view to get complete coverage; all opinions, comments and suggestions are welcome on the talkpage :).

We've also been working on the Abuse Filter plugin for the tool; this will basically be the same as the existing system, only applied to comments. Because of that, we're obviously going to need slightly different filters, because different things will need to be blocked :). We're holding a special office hours session tomorrow at 22:00 UTC to discuss it. If you're a regex nut, existing abuse filter writer, or simply interested in the feedback tool and have suggestions, please do come along :).

I'm pretty sure that's it; if I've missed anything or you have any additional queries, don't hesitate to contact me! Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Dispute resolution survey

Dispute Resolution – Survey Invite Hello FT2. I am currently conducting a study on the dispute resolution processes on the English Misplaced Pages, in the hope that the results will help improve these processes in the future. Whether you have used dispute resolution a little or a lot, now we need to know about your experience. The survey takes around five minutes, and the information you provide will not be shared with third parties other than to assist in analyzing the results of the survey. No personally identifiable information will be released. Please click HERE to participate. Many thanks in advance for your comments and thoughts. You are receiving this invitation because you have had some activity in dispute resolution over the past year. For more information, please see the associated research page. Steven Zhang 12:09, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Your HighBeam account is ready!

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• Your account activation code has been emailed to your Misplaced Pages email address.
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• If you need assistance, email "help at highbeam dot com", and include "HighBeam/Wikipedia" in the subject line. Or go to WP:HighBeam/Support, or ask User:Ocaasi. Please, per HighBeam's request, do not call the toll-free number for assistance with registration.
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Thanks for helping make Misplaced Pages better. Enjoy your research! Cheers, Ocaasi 20:41, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Stories Project

Hi!

My name is Victor and I'm a storyteller with the Wikimedia Foundation, the non-profit organization that supports Misplaced Pages. I'm chronicling the inspiring stories of the Misplaced Pages community around the world, including those from readers, editors, and donors. Stories are absolutely essential for any non-profit to persuade people to support the cause, and we know the vast network of people who make and use Misplaced Pages have so much to share.

I'd very much like to talk with you about your work on the Deepwater Horizon Article

I'd very much like the opportunity to interview you to tell your story, with the possibility of using it in our materials, on our community websites, or as part of this year’s fundraiser to encourage others to support Misplaced Pages. Please let me know if you're inclined to take part in the Misplaced Pages Stories Project, or if you know anyone with whom I should speak.

Thank you for your time,

Victor Grigas

user:Victorgrigas

vgrigas@wikimedia.org

Victor Grigas (talk) 23:23, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Sure! Life's been insanely busy here (and will be a bit longer) and I've been travelling, but it can be fitted in. Let me know how you prefer to do it? FT2  10:56, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Article Feedback Tool office hours

Hey FT2; just a quick note to let you know that we'll be holding an Office Hours session at 18:00 UTC (don't worry, I got the time right ;p) on 4th May in #wikimedia-office. This is to show off the almost-finished feedback page and prep it for a more public release; I'm incredibly happy to have got to this point :). Hope to see you there! Regards, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 03:53, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Summary flag

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Speedy deletion nomination of Template:Summary bottom

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

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If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 05:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

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You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

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If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 05:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

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Article Feedback Tool, Version 5

Hey all :)

Just a quick update on what we've been working on:

• The centralised feedback page is now live! Feel free to use it and all other feedback pages; there's no prohibition on playing around, dealing with the comments or letting others know about it, although the full release comes much later. Let me know if you find any bugs; we know it's a bit odd in Monobook, but that should be fixed in our deployment this week.
• On Thursday, 7th June we'll be holding an office hours session at 20:00 UTC in #wikimedia-office. We'll be discussing all the latest developments, as well as what's coming up next; hope to see you all there!
• Those of you who hand-coded feedback; I believe I contacted you all about t-shirts. If I didn't, drop me a line and I'll get it sorted out :).

Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:50, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

SPI

I've been informed that you might be helpful at an SPI regarding Poetlister, by someone who is no longer a part of the community. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

AWOL

As my recent contribs might suggest, life has dragged me away - I'll be back and around, but could be off-wiki some time, more than likely measured in many months rather than weeks (with exceptions when something irresistible to edit comes up). Admins - please assume my consent if you want to deal with any case or matter where I've been active; if I'm not around do what seems best. Email is here if anyone needs it or wants to check anything with me; I should get that fairly promptly and will try to respond. If I don't (or if I do but help is limited as I'm busy), do what seems best. I'll be back in wiki-harness, but some good stuff has come up to work on for a while, plus helping out a little this year and maybe next with a different free project that needs it. FT2 22:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:MAN

If you get time, please see WP:VPP#The newcomers manual. Simply south...... always punctual, no matter how late for just 6 years 20:33, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

AFT5 release coming up - help us design a banner!

Hey all :). First-off, thanks to everyone for all their help so far; we're coming up to a much wider deployment :). Starting at the end of this month, and scaling up until 3 July, AFT5 will begin appearing on 10 percent of articles. For this release we plan on sending out a CentralNotice that every editor will see - and for this, we need your help :). We've got plans, we know how long it's going to run for, where it's going to run...but not what it says. If you've got ideas for banners, give this page a read and submit your suggestion! Many thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:25, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Higgs boson

Please take help from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/265088/Higgs-particle Thanks--♥ Kkm010 ♥ ߷ _{♀ Contribs ♀} 05:30, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Article Feedback newsletter

Hey all!

So, big news this week - on Tuesday, we ramped up to 5 percent of articles :). There's been a lot more feedback (pardon the pun) as I'm sure you've noticed, and to try and help we've scheduled a large number of office hours sessions, including one this evening at 22:00 UTC in the #wikimedia-office channel, and another at 01:00 UTC for the aussies amongst us :). I hope to see some of you there - if any of you can't make it but have any questions, I'm always happy to help.

Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 20:38, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

AFT5 newsletter

Hey again all :). So, some big news, some small news, some good news, some bad news!

On the "big news" front; we've now deployed AFT5 on to 10 percent of articles, This is pretty awesome :). On the "bad news", however, it looks like we're having to stop at 10 percent until around September - there are scaling issues that make it dangerous to deploy wider. Happily, our awesome features engineering team is looking into them as we speak, and I'm optimistic that the issues will be resolved.

For both "small" and "good" news; we've got another office hours session. This one is tomorrow, at 22:00 UTC in #wikimedia-office - I appreciate it's a bit late for Europeans, but I wanted to juggle it so US east coasters could attend if they wanted :). Hope to see you all there!

Peter Damian at AN

I think I recall that Peter Damian was involved with you before he was community banned. FYI there is a community unban discussion on WP:AN right now. You may want to comment there... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:25, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd rather not comment on this individual. There's a risk of people polarizing around personalities, rather than the issue actually raised, if I did. I have avoided interaction with this individual and commenting on him for a long time and continue to avoid these now. Ultimately a user's actions and history, and community consensus, will determine the request's outcome.

My only involvement was uncomfortable and unpleasant, but that was long, long, ago. If the community believes that the individual is capable of rejoining and respecting norms, and would not take this as vindication of past conduct or opportunity to act up again, then that's fine, if the community feels that a chance should not be given that's fine too. It's the community's choice not mine at this point; I haven't had any involvement in his history for years and am the wrong person to ask for a view on his current standing.

Without commenting on the individual or his case, it is easier to comment on the general situation of banned users. As a community we try to allow good edits if it's likely to be without "more trouble than it's worth" and harm to the community and project. Sometimes it's not possible; other times people change. If the community feels we can reasonably unban some user who is capable of good content, while ring-fencing them with strong conditions on permitted pages or activities to prevent any return to abuse (along with anti-gaming provisions, using wording like "appears to be" or "involvement of any kind in any issue relating to") it's always worth considering the option. That applies to many people, it's common sense. The crucial thing is drafting robust and hard-to-game conditions that even if pushed won't leave openings for a return of any old behaviors or foreseeable similar tactics. The risk is that such users play a "long game" and over time seek relaxed sanctions while pushing the envelope. Paradoxically, well known or repeat-ban ex-users are easier to try this approach, since attempts to act up would probably not divide the community and their bans are easily re-imposed if the experiment fails. On the other hand the community's patience can wear out too, or a user banned for poor conduct simply shows themselves incapable of reasonable long-term compliance. It depends.

I hope these thoughts are useful in general for unban discussions, but when it comes to this individual and his own case, I currently have no public opinion and would rather leave it to the community. Others know him far better than I do. FT2  09:03, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

That all makes sense. I agree with you in general. Taking the high road and leaving it to the community is a good step on your part.

Hope you have a good day.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:49, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Todd Akin

Would you please not add contentious material to a protected page without consensus? This edit is highly inflammatory for a BLP, especially the claim of "Akin's scientific ignorance", the edit about "distrust of rape reports" is similarly inflammatory, and this edit is a clear violation of WP:SYNTH. Per WP:PROTECT you should only be making changes to a protected article if they are uncontroversial or have consensus on the talk page.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 14:22, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Apologies, you're absolutely right, it was protected and I hadn't noticed.

However in BLP terms I would say I don't think these are synthesis or diverging from sources, though I'm open to disagreement. They aim to accurately and validly characterize exactly what sources state. I gave 3 sources. There were numerous others. I've moved this to the article talk page for more eyeballs, and thanks for pointing it out. FT2  15:33, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:26, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #1)

Welcome to the first edition of The Olive Branch. This will be a place to semi-regularly update editors active in dispute resolution (DR) about some of the most important issues, advances, and challenges in the area. You were delivered this update because you are active in DR, but if you would prefer not to receive any future mailing, just add your name to this page.

In this issue:

• Background: A brief overview of the DR ecosystem.
• Research: The most recent DR data
• Survey results: Highlights from Steven Zhang's April 2012 survey
• Activity analysis: Where DR happened, broken down by the top DR forums
• DR Noticeboard comparison: How the newest DR forum has progressed between May and August
• Discussion update: Checking up on the Wikiquette Assistance close debate
• Proposal: It's time to close the Geopolitical, ethnic, and religious conflicts noticeboard. Agree or disagree?

Read the entire first edition of The Olive Branch -->

--The Olive Branch 19:01, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #2)

To add your named to the newsletter delivery list, please sign up here

This edition The Olive Branch is focusing on a 2nd dispute resolution RfC. Two significant proposals have been made. Below we describe the background and recent progress and detail those proposals. Please review them and follow the link at the bottom to comment at the RfC. We need your input!

View the full newsletter

Background Until late 2003, Jimmy Wales was the arbiter in all major disputes. After the Mediation Committee and the Arbitration Committee were founded, Wales delegated his roles of dispute resolution to these bodies. In addition to these committees, the community has developed a number of informal processes of dispute resolution. At its peak, over 17 dispute resolution venues existed. Disputes were submitted in each venue in a different way. Due to the complexity of Misplaced Pages dispute resolution, members of the community were surveyed in April 2012 about their experiences with dispute resolution. In general, the community believes that dispute resolution is too hard to use and is divided among too many venues. Many respondents also reported their experience with dispute resolution had suffered due to a shortage of volunteers and backlogging, which may be due to the disparate nature of the process. An evaluation of dispute resolution forums was made in May this year, in which data on response and resolution time, as well as success rates, was collated. This data is here. Progress so far Leading off from the survey in April and the evaluation in May, several changes to dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) were proposed. Rather than using a wikitext template to bring disputes to DRN, editors used a new javascript form. This form was simpler to use, but also standardised the format of submissions and applied a word limit so that DRN volunteers could more easily review disputes. A template to summarise, and a robot to maintain the noticeboard, were also created. As a result of these changes, volunteers responded to disputes in a third of the time, and resolved them 60% faster when compared to May. Successful resolution of disputes increased by 17%. Submissions were 25% shorter by word count.(see Dispute Resolution Noticeboard Statistics - August compared to May) Outside of DRN other simplification has taken place. The Mediation Cabal was closed in August, and Wikiquette assistance was closed in September. Nevertheless, around fifteen different forums still exist for the resolution of Misplaced Pages disputes. Proposed changes Given the success of the past efforts at DR reform, the current RFC proposes we implement: 1) A submission gadget for every DR venue tailored to the unique needs of that forum. Similar to the one that was deployed, with great success, to the DRN. Structured based on the specific issues most commonly dealt with at each forum. Designed to improve the quality of requests for DR and the efficiency of DR at that forum. Applicable at following noticeboards: Dispute resolution, Neutrality, Reliable Sources, Original Research, Biographies of Living Persons, Notability noticeboard, Fringe theories, Conflict of Interest, Ethnic and cultural conflicts, External links, Third opinion, Mediation Committee, Arbitration Committee. Forms will merely fill out any existing templates (such as Arbcom's) and create a markup-free form in line with specific noticeboard practices otherwise. Example form fields: What pages are involved? What users are involved? What is the issue? What resolution is desired? 2) A universal dispute resolution wizard, accessible from Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. This wizard would ask a series of structured questions about the nature of the dispute. It would then determine to which dispute resolution venue a dispute should be sent. If the user agrees with the wizard's selection, s/he would then be asked a series of questions about the details of the dispute (for example, the usernames of the involved editors). The wizard would then submit a request for dispute resolution to the selected venue, in that venue's required format (using the logic of each venue's specialized form, as in proposal #1). The wizard would not suggest a venue which the user has already identified in answer to a question like "What other steps of dispute resolution have you tried?". Similar to the way the DRN request form operates, this would be enabled for all users. A user could still file a request for dispute resolution manually if they so desired. Coding such a wizard would be complex, but the DRN gadget would be used as an outline. Once the universal request form is ready (coded by those who helped create the DRN request form) the community will be asked to try out and give feedback on the wizard. The wizard's logic in deciding the scope and requirements of each venue would be open to change by the community at any time. 3) Additionally, we're seeking any ideas on how we can attract and retain more dispute resolution volunteers.

Please share your thoughts at the RfC.

--The Olive Branch 18:41, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Userfication of Timeline of the Enron scandal

Hi FT2, would you be willing to userfy (or at the very least email) the content of Timeline of the Enron scandal, so I can clean it up and restore the article? I believe that is a valuable article for Misplaced Pages to have, and am willing to spend some time cleaning it up to make sure it satisfies BLP policies. Thanks, LegoKTM 01:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

For sure! 1/ Do you want the entire page and all history, or just the content of the latest revision? 2/ Would User:Legoktm/Timeline of the Enron scandal be best or do you want it at some other location? FT2  01:30, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

1. I'm guessing the full page history would be valuable to have since it would make a move back to the main space easier. 2. That would be fine, thank you! LegoKTM 01:36, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

My bad. See WP:USERFY#NO item 7 ("just an essay" but has good acceptance and is broadly good guidance). I emailed the August 17 2012 01:47 version (latest, unedited) instead. If you want to edit on-wiki I suppose it could be just about okay in a collapse box or commented out, in user space, as it wont be linked internally or indexed externally, or visible on a plain load of the page. If you want to do that, best quickly check with another admin first (one difficult decision in a matter is enough for me!!).

Deleted revision link 2012-08-17 01:47 for admin convenience. FT2  02:26, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I got your email. For now I'll keep it off wiki until I feel satisfied with the content of the article (and I'll probably ask you to look at it again before publishing on-wiki again). LegoKTM 02:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Jimmy Savile

The question of balance in the introduction has been much discussed on the talk page, and I suggest you raise your concerns there. This site is certainly not a BBC site, and I doubt its reliability on a topic like this. I'm out for the next few hours, but hope to return to the discussion later. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:33, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Raised there, and hopefully enough cites to reassure you now. Thanks. FT2  14:40, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. I just made a minor edit, then noticed the problem in the lead, so reverted it. Cheers! Rothorpe (talk) 16:35, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Uninvolved

Template:Uninvolved has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 16:19, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Civility questions

Hi. I've reverted your edits to the questionaire page. The way it is supposed to work is that you cretae your own subpage for answering the questions, with the page you were editing substituted onto it. Instructions are at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Civility enforcement/Questionnaire. Of course your previous answers can be pulled from the page history. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:50, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

This is not a newsletter

This is just a tribute.

Anyway. You're getting this note because you've participated in discussion and/or asked for updates to either the Article Feedback Tool or Page Curation. This isn't about either of those things, I'm afraid ;p. We've recently started working on yet another project: Echo, a notifications system to augment the watchlist. There's not much information at the moment, because we're still working out the scope and the concepts, but if you're interested in further updates you can sign up here.

In addition, we'll be holding an office hours session at 21:00 UTC on Wednesday, 14 November in #wikimedia-office - hope to see you all there :). I appreciate it's an annoying time for non-Europeans: if you're interested in chatting about the project but can't make it, give me a shout and I can set up another session if there's enough interest in one particular timezone or a skype call if there isn't. Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 10:58, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Rape and enforced pregnancy in conflict

A copy editor is working on the article Pregnancy from rape. He had some questions on the section on Rape and enforced pregnancy in conflict. Since you are the editor that worked on that section the most, could you answer them, here.Casprings (talk) 16:14, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion

Hello, FT2. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The discussion is about the topic Squatting in England and Wales. Thank you. -- KC9TV 11:51, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

AFT5 newsletter

Hey all :). A couple of quick updates (one small, one large)

First, we're continuing to work on some ways to increase the quality of feedback and make it easier to eliminate and deal with non-useful feedback: hopefully I'll have more news for you on this soon :).

Second, we're looking at ways to increase the actual number of users patrolling and take off some of the workload from you lot. Part of this is increasing the prominence of the feedback page, which we're going to try to do with a link at the top of each article to the relevant page. This should be deployed on Tuesday (touch wood!) and we'll be closely monitoring what happens. Let me know if you have any questions or issues :). Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:26, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Proposed deletion/removal of public view-Rider University revision

I'm asking if this revision of Rider University (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Rider_University&oldid=515565523) on 2:56, October 2, 2012 to be removed from public view/deleted from history. It seems to be pointless vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.140.149 (talk) 00:41, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

It is, but I wouldn't. RevDelete exists more to remove stuff that would actually tend to do harm or disrupt Misplaced Pages or its editing - perhaps by being grossly offensive, deeply hurtful, copyvio or privacy breaching, or the like. This is ordinary unremarkable vandalism. Revert (as happened) and carry on with content writing. FT2  10:05, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

AWB

If you are an administrator, you are automatically approved. There is no need to add yourself to the user list. However, don't forget AWB Rule 2 (Consider opening a bot account if you are regularly making more than a few edits a minute.")." from Misplaced Pages:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage. Dougweller (talk) 15:38, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I noted this on the page for others' clarity. FT2  15:49, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Higgs talk page

Hi FT2, could you please have a look at the discussion in the talk page of the Higgs boson article?. Thanks, Ptrslv72 (talk) 22:19, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

RfA clerks

The possibility of RfA clerking was discussed in depth last year. The discussion is being revisited with new suggestions. If the proposal is to be developed the question of appointing clerks would need to be examined. This could be an informal process modeled on the appointment of SPI clerks. Your input at Misplaced Pages talk:RfA reform (continued)/Clerks would be most appreciated. Many thanks, Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:37, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

AFT5 newsletter

Hey all; another newsletter.

• If you're not already aware, a Request for Comment on the future of the Article Feedback Tool on the English-language Misplaced Pages is open; any and all comments, regardless of opinion and perspective, are welcome.
• Our final round of hand-coding is complete, and the results can be found here; thanks to everyone who took part!
• We've made test deployments to the German and French-language projects; if you are aware of any other projects that might like to test out or use the tool, please let me know :).
• Developers continue to work on the upgraded version of the feedback page that was discussed during our last office hours session, with a prototype ready for you to play around with in a few weeks.

That's all for now! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:10, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

AutoPatcher

When I saw your recent edits to this article, I thought to myself "those are good edits". Then I realized that kind of thought should not be kept to myself. So ... thanks!

Cheers, CWC 01:50, 17 February 2013 (UTC) an AutoPatcher user

Thank you! You're welcome, too! FT2  12:39, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

New Article Feedback version available for testing

Hey all.

As promised, we've built a set of improvements to the Article Feedback Tool, which can be tested through the links here. Please do take the opportunity to play around with it, let me know of any bugs, and see what you think :).

A final reminder that the Request for Comment on whether AFT5 should be turned on on Misplaced Pages (and how) is soon to close; for those of you who have not submitted an opinion or !voted, it can be found here.

Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 19:15, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Your RevDelete screenshot

I thought File:RevDelete isn't subtle (2).png was looking a bit out of date, so, voilà: File:RevDelete still isn't subtle.png. — Hex (❝?!❞) 17:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

That still wasn't subtle. Oh wait a moment, yes it was - it's a font change! Heh! FT2  11:02, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Safety of the LHC

I wish you had floated such a radical plan on the talk page before implementing it. It took some effort (by several other editors, my part in it was small) to bring the article to GA status, now I believe that the status should be reassessed. There is repetition between the newly-added RHIC part and the pre-existing LHC part, and your new organization of the paragraphs seems odd. E.g., in the previous version the section "Safety Arguments" summarized the physics of the various safety concerns, while the section "specific concerns and responses" (specific being the operative word) explained who said what and how it was rebutted (I agree that the titles could have been better). However, now you treat MBH, strangelets and "concerns not meeting peer review" as three subsections of the same "specific concerns" section. But in fact the "concerns not meeting peer review" (formerly "specific concerns and responses") concern indeed catastrophic MBH production! Also, the title "examples of colliders" sounds quite silly and does not fit very well the content of the paragraph. Ptrslv72 (talk) 23:10, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

P.S. pay attention to the Higgs boson article, an anonymous editor has been adding doomsday rants on the vacuum instability issue to the lead. Ptrslv72 (talk) 23:12, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Overall you're right on all the points you say. As justification, I hope the rationale makes good sense in the end, and that after it's cleaned out for any issues, it'll be agreed it's better long-term for it. It felt that we had a very off-target or not-best-targeted article, and as NPOV issues catch my eye it also felt (to me, and I don't say everyone will perceive it that way) like a very subtle NPOV issue. While the LHC focus was balanced, the article was also used for all other topics touching on collision safety, and the topic it presented overall was not just the LHC and was not given really rounded treatment, because it was constrained by its title to one specific application or one particular time it had come up, then tried to piggyback the rest onto it as background only, which didn't really read very well. It was quite "this side and that side" which is often a sign an article needs to stand back and refocus slightly. I do agree the article could now be cleaned up on all the areas you point out; I did the minimum to focus it on the topic of collision safety (generally) and to figure out a provisional structure without editing the section contents more than I had to, so it could definitely do with re-polishing.

The issue of high energy collisions safety (as the article says) came up before LHC, in almost identical form, at RHIC, and comes up (and surely will come up) again for super-LHC or other planned future colliders, or as a topic or concern in its own right separate from LHC. So targeting "safety of high energy particle colliders" as the central topic is a very natural umbrella. It covers all safety aspects at all high energy colliders, in a unified flow, as well as any other scenarios where high energy particle collisions' safety may be of concern. By abstracting it from the situation it most recently arose, it also allows some "standing back" and perspective" over history and time, which is harder if LHC is the focus. (For example, surely there were loud concerns over safety when we hit 100 GeV colliders too, "back in the day".) So there's a long historical context, but focusing on one specific collider in the title tends to miss it out, marginalize it, or suggest other events or history is only important as background to this collider.

Anyhow, I am sorry if you felt more consultation was needed. Perhaps it was a bit abrupt, especially for a GA. I'll keep an eye on the HB article too, and sure you will also. Best, and thanks. FT2  23:49, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not following you: what was the NPOV issue?

Moreover, I don't see the fact that the article was about the LHC as a problem. Indeed, both strangelets and MBH scenarios were raised for the LHC, I don't understand what you mean by "the article was also used for all other topics". The RHIC story was mentioned in the article because it was part of the background (and because some of the actors, e.g. Walter "50%-50%" Wagner, were the same). Now, the article is supposed to refer to all particle-physics experiments (BTW, where's the Tevatron?), but it still contains only a very detailed account of the LHC story preceded by a much rougher sketch of the RHIC. Just look at your "examples" (argh!) section, and compare the descriptions of the two colliders... Ptrslv72 (talk) 00:10, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Article Feedback deployment

Hey FT2; I'm dropping you this note because you've used the article feedback tool in the last month or so. On Thursday and Friday the tool will be down for a major deployment; it should be up by Saturday, failing anything going wrong, and by Monday if something does :). Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:54, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

FYI

Check again that talk page, there is a case for an immediate block. Ptrslv72 (talk) 01:46, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

He is an arbitor and as such his information and identity are already public. 68.69.166.126 (talk) 02:22, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Now this IP editor is harassing me with an utterly frivolous sockpuppet tag. This requires an urgent explanation. Ptrslv72 (talk) 21:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

<redacted>68.69.166.126 (talk) 22:11, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

And that was before I saw this and this... Ptrslv72 (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Plagurisim

My textbooks have apparently been plagerized. Mr. Brandt distributes a free tool and I just ran it and I found dozens of articles which plagurized my research papers on arxiv and several textbooks. Who do I report this to? 68.69.166.126 (talk) 02:20, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

My understanding is that people often contact info-en-cwikimedia.org, giving an exact page or link to the exact text they believe they own the copyright to, and evidence substantiating or proving that they are the owner of the copyright in the text. Be aware that the law allows a certain degree of use. If you want to complain more formally, there is something called an OCILLA request, and I believe one sends it to the Wikimedia Foundation's designated agent, but it's best to ask them if unsure. If you want to check, either of those will be able to help. FT2  03:13, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Am I permitted to simply remove the materials in question and post the relevant links to the talk page? 68.69.166.126 (talk) 03:20, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I am not interested in sending OCILLA or any other nonsense legalese documents to anyone. For one it's a waste of everyone's time. For another, it's simply not my style. When people have to resort to such things, the relationship of mutuality is simply over. 68.69.166.126 (talk) 03:22, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

PS. Mutuality is also over when you threaten someone online. 68.69.166.126 (talk) 03:26, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Never mind. I'll just simply post the materials to Mr. Brandt's website. They seem to get taken down then. I have dozens of papers on arxiv and they are not free use copyright since they were published by an acedemic organization and not posted wikipedia style there. At any rate, I'll send them to him to post. 68.69.166.126 (talk) 03:25, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

You are going to crap your drawers when you find out who I am in the physics community. I am blacklisting this website in our organization. Jus! 68.69.166.126 (talk) 03:30, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

If you would provide links to the pages that infringe your work, and then links to your work itself, we can look into it. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:33, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

OMG what on earth is a "neo roman asshole"? on your talkpage. I am rolling out of my chair laughing.  ???? 68.69.166.126 (talk) 04:06, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Since you are trying to get a PhD in biology, here is a project for you. Four subunits beneath the IGP singaling pathway, swap the adenine and tyrosine pair in a mouse, and you will discover you have halted aging. It's caused by NF Kappa B production (mild inflamatory response) as the result of a transcription error in FOX 2-5 -- they add a broken acetyl group to these transciption factors which appear to be the cause of aging in mammals. Would make a good thesis and you will discover it cures aging. Also, Chocolate is the cause of cancer in humans -- it supresses the p53 tumor suppresor gene. No kidding, chocolate is the cause of cancer in humanity. 68.69.166.126 (talk) 04:13, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Don't bother. I don't want to waste any more time. Anything and everything except simply apologize for your conduct. i.e. Dear Sir, we noticed you yourself removed the edit in question before we threatened you. We apologize for doing so, please consider helping us, since we clearly need it. Try that instead. 68.69.166.126 (talk) 04:01, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

What the hell is a talk page for then? I was attempting to discuss it with someone and we had concensus, what right do you have to threaten us after we ourselves handled it without you? 68.69.166.126 (talk) 04:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Courtesy notice

Blocking 68.69.166.126 (talk · contribs) became unavoidable. See his latest oversighted contribs to see why. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:24, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

A cupcake for you!

Just wanted to thank you for working on Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant. Amazing article - one of the things that makes the internet not suck. Thanks again. U5K0'sTalkMake WikiLove not WikiWar 21:34, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	For excellent work on Kermit Gosnell Transcendence (talk) 18:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Pending release of Notifications

Hey FT2 :). I'm dropping you a note because you have signed up for the Notifications, or Echo, newsletter.

If all goes according to plan, we should be launching Echo on en-wiki either tomorrow, or next Tuesday - I'll drop a followup tomorrow when we know what's happening. Should the launch succeed, we'll begin the process of triaging bugs and gathering feedback on what features work, what cause problems, and what we should do next; I hope you'll help us out on these fronts by leaving any comments you might have on the talkpage.

Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:44, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Your 05:29, 20 August 2010 edit to WP:UP

Hi FT2,

In 2010 you made a major rewrite of Misplaced Pages talk:User pages. Overall it was very good, though a bit shocking to slow people like myself. Today I decided that I don't support the usefulness of one particular edit: ]. I have raised the matter here: Wikipedia_talk:User_pages#Cutting_some_unnecessary_text. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:47, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Commented there - thanks, a good catch! Note that the paragraph was over 3 years older and added in 2007, by User:Dragons flight, who should be notified. And whose username needs an apostrophe ;-) FT2  07:57, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Notifications box replacement prototypes released

Hey FT2; Kaldari has finished scripting a set of potential replacements available to test and give feedback on. Please go to this thread for more detail on how to enable them. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 15:33, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

May 2013

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Higgs article

Hi FT2, have a look here. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 15:07, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi FT2, I am wondering if we should keep citing this blog post in the section on Current Status. The post propagates claims of another blog post that, as you can see in the latter's comments section, have been debunked by no less than your new hero Frank Close... ;-) Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 13:41, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

My new hero? I'm asked to provide/recheck old cites because of real-world attention and (as often happens) the cites when checked provide an extra nugget that seems to be sane, salient, and match the facts stated elsewhere. So its added. Can Frank Close - and anyone else in a citation - not be my "new hero" today? Kthx!

Anyhow, my first thought is - the author's (apparently, and nobody's saying otherwise) a post doctorate at CERN on ATLAS, so presumably knows what they are talking about. But comments from Frank CLose (or so it seems and again no-one's saying otherwise) disagree with the post. My technical knowledg is way too low for this. Can you figure out what point it's supporting in the article 1/ if that point is invalid, valid but supported by a poor/dubious cite, or has multiple significant viewpoints that need mention, and 2/ is there stuff we say (or should say) in the article body which you think we should fix, remove, or get a better cite for? FT2  14:44, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Aidan Randle-Conde (ARC) - the author of this blog post - claims that the decay of a spin-2 particle into two spin-1/2 particles is forbidden, because you cannot add up two spin-1/2 states to make a spin-2 state. Frank Close (FC) points out the rather trivial fact that ARC's reasoning neglects orbital angular momentum. A spin-2 particle can decay to two spin-1/2 particles in a state with orbital angular momentum L=1 (i.e., what is called a P wave). FC also stresses that the decay of a scalar (such as the SM Higgs) to two spin-1/2 particles also occurs in a L=1 state (because of parity conservation), thus it is neither suppressed nor enhanced w.r.t. the corresponding decay of a spin-2 particle. Finally, FC points out that ARC's explanation for why a spin-1 particle cannot decay to two photons is also incorrect (the correct explanation is subtler, and it's given e.g. on page 359 of Close's own textbook). Even after FC's rebuttal (with real-life examples) to ARC's confused reply (see here), ARC refuses to amend his post.

I can't see any flaw in FC's arguments, and I think that we are doing a disservice to the readers by directing them to a blog post (a questionable kind of source to start with) that propagates incorrect information. I would simply remove the reference, after all it's not the only one we are providing. As to the fact that "a CERN postdoc presumably knows what they are talking about", the sad truth is that 1) experimentalists cannot always be trusted to understand theoretical subtleties, as you can judge by ARC's handwaving reply linked above, and 2) some people would not admit being wrong even under torture. If you (FT2) don't trust your own knowledge and want to go for authority, consider that an Oxford professor of theoretical particle physics, author of various textbooks on the topic, "presumably knows what he's talking about" better than some postdoc experimentalist. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 15:45, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

As to why we were citing the blog post in the first place, if I remember correctly an earlier version of the section contained the erroneous claim that a spin-2 particle cannot decay to two taus. It might be that we removed the claim but not the reference. Cheers, Ptrslv72 (talk) 15:55, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Sounds sensible - can you fix it? I think my technical knowledge might mean I'd under- or over-correct it if I tried. FT2  16:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

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DYK for Karrimor

On 17 August 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Karrimor, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that British manufacturer Karrimor's reputation for outdoor pursuit equipment was a direct result of its location in Lancashire, and a CEO who was an climber and trekker? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Karrimor. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

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Re: DYK edit

Thank you for the message. I apologise for the lack of communication on my part. The change appeared to be trivial at the initial glance.

Upon checking the citations and the detailed explanations you have provided, I have re-inserted both of the descriptive terms and indicted the change in DYK talk page. Cheers. Alex Shih 07:43, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:AN

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Award

Sorry about that. Th4n3r (talk) 11:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The Original Barnstar Corporate shill of the year. Th4n3r (talk) 18:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC) I've responded to this attempted snark, on the user's talk page (and at the other places the matter got forum-shopped). The matter was reviewed; those with concerns didn't notify those who could have answered them, and now two DYK reviewers are being pilloried for doing their job in line with uninvolved opinion. There may be a need for discussion of "surprising but accurate characterizations at DYK", but that's not a reason to attack reviewers for following NPOV, or editors for hooks that were reviewed and endorsed more than once and without reviewer dissent, by DYK reviewers. Right now it's at WP:AN (Link) and best continued there, if anything needs saying. I think the links at AN make that very clear. FT2  00:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Megaupload Is/Was

Simple heads-up about this edit, given your comment and edit in January 2012. (My comment here is no judgment of that recent edit; just letting you know about it.) --82.170.113.123 (talk) 23:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Request for RevisionDelete

Hi, FT2. There appears to be a fairly new user (new to English Misplaced Pages, at least) who has been blanking, overwriting and importing highly biased tracts from RU wikipedia into controversial EN wikipedia pages. As he/she has done this over several edits, I am unable to simply 'undo' the edits and would prefer that a record of the activity remain. This has taken place on the Name of Ukraine article and I'd like it reverted to the this version. I'd be very grateful if you could assist me on this matter. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:23, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Unless I'm really misunderstanding what you're asking for, that's not what RevisionDelete does. It won't leave a record the way you want. What you want can be done without revision delete (and without being an admin), by clicking Edit then Save page, on the link that you posted. Jackmcbarn (talk) 03:14, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank heaven for little trolls! I'll try it out. If I'm too dumb to work it out I may have to stalk you for a blow by blow walkthrough. Your assistance has been invaluable! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:37, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Wonderful! That was precisely what I wanted to achieve, Jackmcbarn. The RevisionDelete info left me a perplexed as it implied that it was considered preferred and best practice for retaining subsequent edits. I can see, now, that, should there be anything of merit in the edits made by Shervinsky, I've retained all of the information for myself and the many, many 'interested' parties contributing to pick through at and squabble over at leisure on the article's talk page until a consensus on lack of consensus is reached. Can I assume that RevisionDelete is really simply the easiest method for retrieving far older versions of an entry that has been redacted, blanked & tampered with so many times over a prolonged period of time that it isn't possible to salvage it from the method you suggested? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:01, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)No. Revision deletion hides deleted edits so that they can't be publicly seen. It is used for getting rid of content which is so unacceptable that it cannot be allowed to remain even in the page history, such as serious libel. Usually, when an edit has been revision-deleted, you can see in the edit history that some edit took place, but you can't see what the edit was. (I say "usually", because occasionally it is only the edit summary which is hidden from view, if an editor makes an edit which is OK, but uses an edit summary to post unacceptable content.) JamesBWatson (talk) 08:15, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Right, I've got it. Of course, that is logical = revision is, to all intents and purposes, deleted. It seems obvious now but, still being on a learning curve and having been confronted with heavily biased content which had basically usurped the article, I flew into a bit of panic over the 'right' and 'wrong' way to do it.

While I'm here, I'm hoping to pick your brain over the issue at hand. Shervinsky has reinstated all of the reverted edits in the Name of Ukraine article. A section on the talk page was introduced by him after the fact of having reinstated them when I'd asked that the matter be discussed with other editors and myself first.

Yes, it's one of 'those' Slavic edit warring articles. While Shervinsky's edits may appear constructive on face value, it's basically a direct translation of the Russian Misplaced Pages article and I've now been 'challenged' further by his/her enlisting the support of someone I've been assisting in cleaning up Russian articles being pulled into English Misplaced Pages as new entries. While I have no qualms about new articles being sourced from another Misplaced Pages in the initial instance, the article in question has been carefully redacted & disputed for a number of years in order to avoid the blatant biases of the Russian entry. As Shervinsky is using VE, he/she can't even see the number of hidden comments I've made regarding citations & questionable content but haven't removed as I'm allowing some time for other contributors to address them.

The last thing I want to do is start an edit war but Shervinsky has made it abundantly clear that he/she has an agenda and does not intend to let up. The disruptive behaviour is escalating and this new user was busy tidying their new & improved version literally while I was sleeping. I'm not about to enter into a dialogue on the talk page as it lends a legitimacy to a challenge which simply shouldn't exist (plus I'm feeling somewhat antagonised and not in the right frame of mind to enter into a strategic nightmare).

Other than telling me to go away because you have a headache, could you offer me some sort of constructive advise on how to approach the matter? Thank you (in advance). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:21, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages and Current Events

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Greetings, you are invited

Hello FT2, thank you for your many contributions to Misplaced Pages. I am contacting you because you are an active editor who is listed at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Neutrality. It is my hypothesis that a re-branded "WikiProject" that is more "edgy" and decentralized could prove to be more successful than a structured WikiProject when tackling issues related to this core concept. So I have started something I named Misplaced Pages:Neutrality cabal. I've already gotten a real-life friend to sign up, and you might know how hard that is to get people to participate on this medium. I invite you to sign up/participate so that we can hopefully collaborate, build camaraderie, and improve the encyclopedia. Best regards. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 17:11, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Bradley Manning/October 2013 move request

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File:Higgs mass metastability.png listed for deletion

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Books and Bytes: The Misplaced Pages Library Newsletter

Books and Bytes

Volume 1, Issue 1, October 2013

by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs)

Greetings Misplaced Pages Library members! Welcome to the inaugural edition of Books and Bytes, TWL’s monthly newsletter. We're sending you the first edition of this opt-in newsletter, because you signed up, or applied for a free research account: HighBeam, Credo, Questia, JSTOR, or Cochrane. To receive future updates of Books and Bytes, please add your name to the subscriber's list. There's lots of news this month for the Misplaced Pages Library, including new accounts, upcoming events, and new ways to get involved...

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New ideas: OCLC innovations in the works; VisualEditor Reference Dialog Workshop; a photo contest idea emerges

News from the library world: Wikipedian joins the National Archives full time; the Getty Museum releases 4,500 images; CERN goes CC-BY

Announcing WikiProject Open: WikiProject Open kicked off in October, with several brainstorming and co-working sessions

New ways to get involved: Visiting scholar requirements; subject guides; room for library expansion and exploration

Read the full newsletter

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A reference problem

Hi! Some users have been working hard on Category:Pages with broken reference names.

Here you added a new reference huff lords & nyt lords but didn't define it. This has been showing as an error at the bottom of the article. "Cite error: The named reference REFNAME was invoked but never defined (see the help page)." Can you take a look and work out what you were trying to do? Thanks -- Frze 17:42, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

 Done --Frze 17:45, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Re:Death and funeral of Nelson Mandela

I reverted your recent move of the page because you'd only moved the talk page rather than the whole article, but I thought it might be worth opening a discussion on the matter. Give me a couple of minutes and I'll post on the talk page. Cheers Paul MacDermott (talk) 11:04, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Discussion now open here. Feel free to add your thoughts. Cheers again. Paul MacDermott (talk) 11:18, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages Library Survey

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RFC sockpuppeting

Hi FT2, could you comment on Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Achidiac? Gm545 (talk) 07:38, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time

Thanks for taking the time to encourage me, it means a lot. Baalmaloche (talk) 19:03, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

March 2014

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Wright

Hiya. In regard to this content of yours, https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Otis_D._Wright_II&diff=602584617&oldid=601239270 is it alright here to quote so much in copyright standards and the legal externals https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1093640/031118524877.pdf can they be used, and is the detail you wrote about this single case not excessive on his life story page ? Mosfetfaser (talk) 17:46, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Attributed copying from public-domain sources such as works of the US government is fine. However, plagiarizing material under copyright, which is what you have done, is not. Though all text on Misplaced Pages is published under a free content licence, that licence requires that the authorship attribution be preserved. In the future, when copying text from one page to another please remember to indicate the source in your edit summary or on the target article's talk page. Thanks! —Psychonaut (talk) 18:57, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Attributed copying from public-domain sources such as works of the US government is fine. - what is that about - ? - I was asking abnout excessive guoting of copyrighted content and using primary legaL DOCS to quote and post content - done your request - https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:U.S.A._v._Hudson,_Whitfield_%26_Dunlap - Mosfetfaser (talk) 19:02, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

The URL you gave points to a work of the US government (specifically, a court order from a United States District Court) which, as such, is in the public domain. You can therefore quote as much as you want without running afoul of copyright law. (Though of course, for our purposes, the amount quoted should be in line with what's necessary to give an encyclopedic overview of the topic.) If there were additional non-free sources quoted, then of course these excerpts need to comply with WP:NFCC. —Psychonaut (talk) 19:16, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

As Psychonaut said, the quotations are 1/ public domain (Federal Govt original authorship), and 2/ overall small and key snippets from a large document (it's a large-ish quote for Misplaced Pages norms but small for the source document). So it's valid, neither copyright issue nor plagiarism. But it was an excessive quote and not ideal for our standards. The original issue was that the article on the judge asserted that "Hudson" was one of his "notable" cases but did not said anything about the case, nor why it was notable, nor any third parties who highlighted it that way, to support Misplaced Pages's article's position. It simply stated that he called some (undescribed) government action "outrageous" - but no information what action it was, nor why, nor in what way. I've been moving round this week, so didn't have time for the research but could add enough to allude to why it might be seen that way, from a quick skim of his ruling. Enough to at least help a reader. But not ideal even so.

I see it's been moved to its own article, and that's probably ideal, though it still needs proper third party material to replace the over reliance on quotes and to show how it was seen by independent sources and writers. Thanks for the fix and move, whoever did it, it's cleaner now than it was. FT2  23:28, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Mant thanks for your comments, interpretion of wiki guides. Mosfetfaser (talk) 09:35, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Article now moved to better spot, and a little updated, may help it take shape better. FT2  11:58, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Fantastic improvement, well done Mosfetfaser (talk) 20:23, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

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accessed December 15, 2010.</ref><ref></ref><ref>[http://au.srichinmoyraces. ultra-runners and had not yet been authenticated by Guinness at the time.<ref name="olsen_uw_2001">[https://web.archive.org/web/20030304154057/http://www.ultramarathonworld.com/uw_archive/n24jn01e. in his right arm.<ref></ref> He then continued his run on 1 January 2011 from km /1 lap (Earth) - 662 days <ref></ref>

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Ebola virus

On your edit here, fyi, the convention is that it's an outbreak of a virus that causes the disease. It's not an outbreak of disease, per se. People get the virus first, which causes the disease, which is why I changed it to clarify. Would you reconsider your edit, then? SW3 5DL (talk) 15:39, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm somewhat conflicted, because on one hand I wouldn't wish to breach a well established convention. On the other hand we don't notice or record as the primary focus, an outbreak of virus, we notice and record an outbreak of a disease, then identify the pathogen responsible. It also makes sense, because we care about the outbreak of a disease, and unless it has a disease implication, we don't seem to care much or care aout the outbreak of a virus in the absence of human impact. Ebola may have outbroken (sp?) long before March 2014 but we only called it an outbreak when the outbreak is observed to be of disease. Even if we did not know the etiology or responsible pathogen - if any - we would still describe the situation as an "outbreak" of a disease. Epidemologically it's important to be clear the pathogen, so in that niche one would discuss an outbreak of a birus, but beyond that niche, the vastly more common description would be an outbreak of the disease - media would not describe it as an outbreak of "Cote d'Ivoire Ebola virus" but an outbreak of "Ebola" .

Backing this up, I just did a google search for pages referencing "outbreak of flu" but NOT "outbreak of flu virus" (4400 hits) but the other way around has 30 hits. A second disease in the same verbal style as Ebola might be smallpox (smallpox outbreak vs smallpox virus outbreak), and again, "outbreak of smallpox" without "outbreak of smallpox virus" had 7580 hits compared to "outbreak of smallpox virus" with 5 hits. "Outbreak of meningitis" (again the disease not the pathogen) follows the same pattern.

In other epidemics, the disease was also the common name - there was an outbreak of "mad cow disease" or "Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease" in the UK, not an outbreak of malformed prions, and one reads about an outbreak of "Legionnaires' disease" far more that one ever sees mention of an outbreak of Legionella pneumophila.

Even when no pathogen is considered, we see widespread reference to describing the outbreak of the illness not the agent (rossref google: "outbreak of cancer", "outbreak of diabetes", "outbreak of blindness").

Not conclusive of course, but shows common usage beyond at most a narrow niche is universally to describe the outbreak as being one of the disease or condition, not of the virus. The virus absent any disease is unremarkable, the disease seems to be what is remarked upon in each case. What shall we do? FT2  19:03, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you've just made an excellent description of the dilemma caused by the news media and Google results that lead to confusion. As a matter of fact, the naming convention for Ebola virus had to be reaffirmed by the ICTV because of the problem of the media using the term incorrectly, and even some later researchers. The correct name is Ebola virus, per the naming convention for viruses, and as the majority of the literature supports, so the name was reaffirmed. The epidemiology/virology literature supports the convention of describing a viral or bacterial outbreak as an 'outbreak of virus/bacteria.' And this being an encyclopedia, the policies I've read seem to suggest we ought to go by that convention. As for what to do in this moment, I'd like to see it put back. But this time I'd add a talk page note and add 'see talk page' in the edit summary. That might help. SW3 5DL (talk) 20:27, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Viruses not virii

Dear FT2, I noticed that you introduced the spelling virii on Ebola virus. In classical Latin virus is a singulare tantum. If one would create a possible plural, vira would be a probable candidate (also used in Stearn's Botanical latin). However, using the English plural 'viruses' would be considered as the best option in this case. With kind regards, Wimpus (talk) 09:02, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I gracefully concede that in this case, the experts probably have a better chance of being correct. Still feels wrong though ;-) You might want to correct English plural which doesn't agree with the other articles? FT2  10:52, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Dear FT2, thanks for the response. Did you had a specific source for virii? With knd regards, Wimpus (talk) 12:15, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

No, it's just the term that, as a native English speaker, always "felt right", and "virus -> viruses" always felt wrong. But I can see from the articles you linked, that I might have picked up this usage from malware virus+plural. Hence why I could easily be wrong all this time :) Please do correct if experts and virology specialists would use "viruses" instead. FT2  13:19, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Nice work

Hi,
Nice work on Argentine debt restructuring. Thanks! I think there may still be some duplication, but the article is looking much better. bobrayner (talk) 13:25, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi I would like to have my revision history deleted from my page https://en.wikipedia.org/Praveen_Anidil due to privacy concerns. Hope you do the needful Thank you. Inferno0318 (talk) 19:13, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

November 2014

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Grooming

About eight years ago you created and redirected "Grooming". We're discussing Internet Grooming at WP:RFD. As the creator and modifier of this many years ago, you may have some views. Nobody is suggesting anyone here engages in that activity, but where best to retarget it. Si Trew (talk) 08:17, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

You're mistaken. I wasn't involved in that page at all (full page history). I did create a redirect in 2006, but it was for a completely different topic AFAIK: namely the general term "grooming", and redirected to social grooming (in the sense of attending to one's appearance: animals cleaning their feathers and fur, people being groomed for interview etc) which I'd been expanding (13 edits diff).

As part of editing an article, one looks at whether its title - and other titles people might search and expect to find it under - are appropriate. So I created a redirect for the article I had edited.

Given how widely it's used (bridegroom, social grooming, child/predator grooming, other uses?) I'm more inclined now to suggest the topics "groom" and "grooming" should end up together at a disambiguation page. FT2  23:52, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Refs for medical content

Please note that we do not typically use blogs or the popular press. We prefer sources per WP:MEDRS. Best Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

That comes over as high handed and condescending, as the edit was not at all controversial, and was indeed cited to a medical paper (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23155478), and in addition to 'Virology' journal.

WP:MEDRS makes clear that "prefer" isn't exclusive. Not all content even in a medical article is medical. Medical journal sources are better for clinical scientific aspects of the content. Mass science media can crucially collate coverage of several aspects in one place, or collate different aspects, including non-clinical real-world coverage and information not part of a peer reviewed medical paper. They can also communicate some areas more helpfully for mass readership.

To the point: I think your trimming down of content was generally good - tighter wording is usually better. But EVD isn't just clinical. It covers all significant aspects of EVD - human, social, and other. In that context, a belief that reputable sober-minded media widely consider one of the more serious and "dangerous" areas of "misinformation" and "conspiracy theories", should be a little more prominently addressed.

For that reason I think you may have veered a bit too far on the side of trimming it down. FT2  11:13, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Consensus is specifically that we do not use the popular press for medical content. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:59, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I think you need to re-check WP:MEDRS for the part you missed out. I see that you didn't recheck when I suggested gently first time. Here's WP:MEDRS itself:

This guideline supports the general sourcing policy at Misplaced Pages:Verifiability with specific attention given to sources appropriate for the medical and health-related content.... Sources for all other types of content—including all non-medical information in medicine-related articles—are covered by the general guideline on identifying reliable sources rather than this specific guideline...

The popular press is generally not a reliable source for scientific and medical information in articles... (the rest of that paragraph discusses media coverage of medical information only, in terms of poor quality assessment of its exact significance, and does not touch on mass media coverage of non-medical information.)

Conversely, the high-quality popular press can be a good source for social, biographical, current-affairs, financial, and historical information in a medical article. For example, popular science magazines such as New Scientist and Scientific American are not peer reviewed, but sometimes feature articles that explain medical subjects in plain English. As the quality of press coverage of medicine ranges from excellent to irresponsible, use common sense...

Putting this area of MEDRS into plain English:

1. Medical content should be sourced from medical sources, as medical content in mass media is usually considered dubious and unreliable in terms of its analysis of the exact content of medical studies; however...
2. All other (non-medical) content (including social analysis, current-affairs, and popular perceptions) that is covered in medical articles, is assessed according to the general WP:RS policy, not MEDRS.
3. In addition, high quality mass media can sometimes explain the importance of a medical matter in plain, accessible, English. For such sources, commonsense (not medical paper) is the way to judge the matter.

An edit adding information about a medical point and citing the medical content to an NIH peer reviewed paper and Virology magazine, and using a highly reputable media source for social commentary and summary of current public perceptions and plain English meaning of the medical matter (which matches the medical sources and is hence commonsense), fits WP:MEDRS precisely. I hope we can now agree on this, and after reflection, let it go.

I shouldn't have had to point you to the policy wording after my first comment, which clearly showed the medical information to be medically sourced. FT2  22:04, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Deletion pending

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Reference errors on 12 June

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Modern physics

Modern physics kind of sits in limbo: Rated as an article of "top importance", it is also rated low for quality. Maybe it is an article that would interest you? Isambard Kingdom (talk) 13:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It does, and is.

It's such a vast field that it's not well enough defined for me, to have a stab at it myself, without a severe risk of covering aspects I know and ignoring whole swathes of the topic that I'm less familiar with. I'#ve tended to edit articles that are specific and come to my attention, this one;'s a bigger article by far in its scope. Really, the trouble on an article like this one, for me, is knowing (or identifying) in the first place what ought to be in it. If you can round up some ideas on the talk page about what belongs in it, what it should cover, that would be a good first step and we can see what we can do. FT2  07:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

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Re: Windows 10

Your edits are of concern for several reasons:

1. They are overdetailed in places.
2. You made the lead way too long.
3. You've used unusual terms such as "Microsoft Updates", "forcible", etc., that do not match the tone and make the article harder to understand.
4. For neutrality's sake, we do not use a criticism heading. Your format changes made it inconsistent with the structure of Windows 8.
5. Bare URL citations

ViperSnake151  Talk  15:43, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Hmm. I'll look again at the edits to that article, but worth noting:

• "Way too long" was just four paragraphs, of which one was extremely short (one line) - well within all norms and WP:MOS standards.
• Overdetailed is very subjective - people will inevitably differ on it. I wouldn't describe it as "of concern".
• "Microsoft Updates" isn't an "unusual term" for goodness sake.... it's the term Microsoft themselves use as well as media writers ... as well as anyone on a system that uses "Windows Updates" or "Microsoft Updates" (which covers most modern versions of Windows). It might not technically be the formal term, but it's far from "unusual" or "hard to understand".
• Some articles do, some don't. "It isn't like that on Windows 8" isn't really something that can be expected. More to the point, yes we do. For example, Windows Vista#Criticism has a criticism section, while Windows 7 and 8.x also have one but use the euphemism "Critical reception" as a section within "reception" to cover all reception that was critical (i.e., criticism). It's very much a case of structuring criticism neutrally; having a section with that title doesn't automatically make it non-neutral, and calling it something else doesn't automatically ensure neutrality -- it's how it's covered that causes non-neutrality.

Overall it sounds more like there are strong-ish views on areas where valid alternatives could exist. As I said, I've noted your view and thanks, hopefully all will be good from here :) FT2  01:29, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

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Vajont

Good work. I'd love to help but not sure I have much to offer. I'll try to keep an eye on it and see if there's anything I can help with. Have you seen the film? Holy ****! It's not even a really very good film, but even so ... Cheers DBaK (talk) 19:01, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Reference errors on 21 October

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Carmen

Sorry, I reverted your edits to Carmen. The people who don't know what a toreador is can click on the link. We don't have to hold up the others (in the summary!) by an explanation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:28, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the courtesy of your note :)

I'm dubious though - although I take your point, which is quite a reasonable one - because across the musical sphere, we routinely explain very uncommon words when they are unlikely to be familiar to a majority of readers, who could not easily understand the meaning otherwise. We don't seem to just rely on a link and "look it up if you don't know".

Examples from other music introductions - in Libretto we describe "he relationship of the librettist (that is, the writer of a libretto) to the composer...") - that's not just to mention a related term of the main topic otherwise it would say "The writer is known as a librettist" or some such; in Conducting we say that the duties are to execute "beats (meter)" rather than just one or the other term, Opera is described as "a dramatic work combining text (libretto)", and so on. I think to most people, "toreador" is as likely to be unfamiliar as "librettist" or the musical use of the word "meter"...? Is one word in brackets really going to hold up the few who know, by that much, compared to the help to the great majority who won't? FT2  13:02, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

I personally think that a general article such as libretto should explain more than one on a specific opera or string quartet. If you want to pursue it take it to the article talk page please, as I would advise you to do with any change to the lead section of a featured article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:39, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

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Many Thanks

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		For your involvement in the improvement of the article Gravitational-wave observation. -- Seddon 04:19, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Me and Mike Peel were thinking about nominating for WP:GAN. Do you reckon it's good enough for that? Seddon 04:19, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

If it isn't, it should be. Let's make it so. FT2  09:32, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

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Path Solutions article

We are the owners of Path Solutions.

Do we need a permission to write about our company, product and awards?

Thank you for your feedback

Nadim Saab

Path Solutions

Nsaab@path-solutions.com193.227.165.206 (talk) 08:56, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

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Question about conflict of interest

Hi FT2, this is a question about conflict of interest. I am now talking in the abstract. This matter does not involve you and i am asking for impartial feedback. If an Admin takes repeated Administrative action against other editors involved in disputes with a specific editor, and repeatedly comes to the aid of said editor in even petty disputes, and if there is reason to believe that the Admin knows said editor personally, and said Admin refuses to clarify about whether they know said editor on their talk page on the ground that the question was framed in a rude manner, then is this matter serious enough to be raised in WP:COIN? Furthermore, is there a possibility of a boomerang on the WP:COIN board whereby i could be blocked or indeffed as a result of opening a COIN investigation against said Admin. Thank you. Soham321 (talk) 23:04, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@Soham231: Bishonen knows of Sitush's work at Misplaced Pages. That's it—there is no personal friendship or collusion. The reason for what you are seeing is very simple. Over the years, there have been many extremely opiniated drive-by editors who add unsourced or incorrectly sourced POV commentary to articles related to WP:CASTE. Sitush is known to have a lot of knowledge in the area, as well as access to scholarly sources that are suitable for use at Misplaced Pages. Dealing with the same kind of disruption over and over and over is extremely tedious, and Bishonen got involved simply in an attempt to help minimize the disruption. If necessary, the history could be dredged up: Some background is at this August 2015 discussion, and the following sections on that page, and recent discussion is here. If you really want to push the matter further, you need to prepare an evidence page in a sandbox where you show links with explanations of problematic behavior shown at each link. Per WP:POLEMIC, such an evidence page would have to be constructed and used reasonably quickly (say within two weeks). After that, you would present your evidence either at WP:AN or WP:ARC, or request that the evidence page be deleted by adding {{db-user}} to it. However, take care because once a community discussion starts, everyone's contributions will be examined, and you may find that the community does not agree with you, and that could lead to further sanctions against you. It's not the people want to be nasty, it's just that there is a limit to how much time and energy can be spent going over and over and over the same old stuff. Johnuniq (talk) 04:36, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Johnuniq I consider it rude on your part to butt in when i have asked a specific query to an Admin. You have succeeded in not allowing my query to be kept abstract, without taking any names, which I very much wanted. Please allow me to engage with an Admin on my own terms as far as my query is concerned. Do not participate in this discussion any further since i am keen to have a one-on-one discussion with Admin FT2 on this issue. Feel free to share your views in detail if this matter is taken up before the community.Soham321 (talk) 04:52, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Does that mean you are going to disregard what I said? You might like to see my first comment on this issue: August 2013. My intrusions are standard Misplaced Pages procedure, but you can add diffs of them to your evidence page and ask about them when there is a community discussion. Bear in mind that anyone wanting to understand your comment would take a look at your contributions, so what I wrote does not reveal anything—it is simply getting the issue out in the open. At any rate, FT2 has not been active since 24 October 2016 so you may not get a fast response from him. Johnuniq (talk) 05:06, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I've been insanely busy much of this year, it's true, but in this case it happens I saw the "new messages" note. I'm not aware of the dispute or user names, or where this has been raised, but I would note that if it directly involves Bishonen (whose name appears above), she and I have had past issues and they are best left in the past; you might want to ask someone else with less involvement. Having said that, you asked the question as a general principle (although obviously it directly relates to a specific dispute) so I'll try to help. My comments are injected.

• If an Admin takes repeated Administrative action against other editors involved in disputes with a specific editor - administrators often have to do that, it's completely usual and indeed expected. See WP:ADMIN for this, although you probably know it.
• ...and repeatedly comes to the aid of said editor in even petty disputes... - again quite normal (all else being equal). Once you notice a user in one issue, or for one reason, you might also become more aware of them on other issues or watchlist their stuff, either due to interest or because of the perception they might be further issues worth keeping an eye out for. If it's due to bias there are usually other giveaways but merely observing this wouldn't normally be a sign of bias, it's well within normal events
• ...and if there is reason to believe that the Admin knows said editor personally, and said Admin refuses to clarify about whether they know said editor on their talk page on the ground that the question was framed in a rude manner... again, taken by itself, just knowing another editor offline is well within normal conduct. Many editors and admins do know each other personally (meetups, friendships that develop, mentorships, things in common). But also many times editors ally with other editors *specifically because* they both have some POV or interest to push in common. Even so, wanting to support someone whose views you agree with (whether or not you know them off wiki) isn't necessarily a problem or a breach of conduct norms, and a question may be perceived as rude or pointed by a reader even if not intended that way by the writer, and may receive a sharp rebuke for that perceived style. For example, you might feel the other editor should be heard or is right but saying it poorly. That said, admins are expected to be willing to explain their Misplaced Pages conduct when it raises concern (whether openly on-wiki, or privately to some suitable uninvolved member of the community if it involves non-public or private information). But that isn't the same as describing their real-world affairs. You might want to mention it's a concern, but you shouldn't usually expect to have any rights or expectations of demanding from another user details of their offline life, even if it might shed light on their edits. The real world just doesn't work that way and we're really just a website of encyclopedia writers. if your wiki evidence convinces others, then they will decide how to handle that anyway. I wouldn't assume anything there especially, because it doesn't help and you don't know.

So all the things you describe so far *can* have completely normal and innocent meanings, well within community norms. if there is an editor conduct issue, it would have to be determined by directly looking at the messages, the nature of the alleged offline connection, and evidence from diffs and other relevant conduct, probably on some noticeboard. It's best not to "forum shop". WP:RFC would be a decent place to start if you want to get views in a sensible place. WP:COIN is more for external paid undisclosed editing, self promotion, and so on, which this doesn't sound so much like.

As for blocking - you shouldn't be blocked (either briefly or indefinitely) just for raising a concern, unless you have a history of previous conduct which has been disruptive (or perceived to be so by one or more uninvolved admins). Blocks tend to be there (and should be there) to deter, not punish. Asking for views in a calm sensible way, and giving your reasons rather than "puffing" up the matter with accusatory hyperbole and "hot speech", should not be an issue. If you have acted poorly yourself, and want to get serious comments but fear a backlash, then I would suggest setting out a summary of what happened (with diff links), what your exact concern is, and ask specifically for an uninvolved admin to advise you whether or not there is a concern there, as they see it, and whether to raise it at RFC or otherwise, or drop it. You're free to follow their advice or not, or to ask for other views, but if you are courteous and not "flaming" or hot headed, and it's clear your interest is to resolve a concern without raising the heat, you are more likely to get some respect for handling it sensibly. If it happens that you try but are goaded by other editors, or get accused in turn, sit calm, people who see your conduct will judge you by it, even if some users try to provoke you to act differently. Ask yourself honestly, what is your actual concern for the Misplaced Pages project, and don't try to WP:OWN the debate or assume others agree with you on the evidence and its meaning.

Hope that helps? FT2  16:30, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks for your detailed response, FT2. Soham321 (talk) 16:54, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

About Tanuku Article

Sir can you please check the version history of Tanuku and take necessary action about that vandalism.--IM3847 (talk) 16:23, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Cashless Society Page

I would like to contribute to cleaning up and adding to the entry on Cashless Society. I've cleaned up the main definition, but would like your input about my concerns of the entry's worthiness.

Honestly, I am bias about this topic and would also like to have my additions checked for neutrality. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Americanjoe1776 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

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News and updates for administrators from the past month (January 2017). This first issue is being sent out to all administrators, if you wish to keep receiving it please subscribe. Your feedback is welcomed.

Administrator changes

NinjaRobotPirate • Schwede66 • K6ka • Ealdgyth • Ferret • Cyberpower678 • Mz7 • Primefac • Dodger67

Briangotts • JeremyA • BU Rob13

Guideline and policy news

• A discussion to workshop proposals to amend the administrator inactivity policy at Misplaced Pages talk:Administrators has been in process since late December 2016.
• Misplaced Pages:Pending changes/Request for Comment 2016 closed with no consensus for implementing Pending changes level 2 with new criteria for use.
• Following an RfC, an activity requirement is now in place for bots and bot operators.

Technical news

• When performing some administrative actions the reason field briefly gave suggestions as text was typed. This change has since been reverted so that issues with the implementation can be addressed. (T34950)
• Following the latest RfC concluding that Pending Changes 2 should not be used on the English Misplaced Pages, an RfC closed with consensus to remove the options for using it from the page protection interface, a change which has now been made. (T156448)
• The Foundation has announced a new community health initiative to combat harassment. This should bring numerous improvements to tools for admins and CheckUsers in 2017.

Arbitration

• The Arbitration Committee released a response to the Wikimedia Foundation's statement on paid editing and outing.

Obituaries

• JohnCD (John Cameron Deas) passed away on 30 December 2016. John began editing Misplaced Pages seriously during 2007 and became an administrator in November 2009.

---

Discuss this newsletter • Subscribe • Archive

13:36, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Uw-userspacenoindex

Template:Uw-userspacenoindex has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. — Train2104 (t • c) 23:54, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:SPImonth

Template:SPImonth has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:34, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Your knowledge in the Misplaced Pages topic <Heroin> are necessary._are_necessary.-2017-04-18T15:16:00.000Z">

Day. Heroin with dexamethasone addition. Allow the abstinenceindrom to escape at least partially? I, not much interest in it. But, my colleague of top-top Sicret policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.180.59 (talk) 15:16, 18 April 2017 (UTC)_are_necessary."> _are_necessary.">

MfD nomination of MediaWiki:Abusefilter-warning-priorcase

MediaWiki:Abusefilter-warning-priorcase, a page which you created or substantially contributed to (or which is in your userspace), has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/MediaWiki:Abusefilter-warning-priorcase and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of MediaWiki:Abusefilter-warning-priorcase during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:43, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use File:Grenfell-Tower-fire-and-plume.jpg

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Speedy deletion nomination of File:Grenfell-Tower-fire-and-plume.jpg

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Nomination of Self-relations psychotherapy for deletion

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Replaceable fair use File:SOPA tweets 23.00 UTC 18 January 2012.png

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Body Worn Video

Hi, I've been busy with the article on Body worn video for quite some time. But I only know about its use for law enforcement, so that's what I wrote about. Somebody has changed the introduction of the page to include other uses of BWV: recreational, medical, safety, etcetera. That's a justifiable change, because law enforcement is just one of many possible uses for BWV. But changing the introduction is not enough: the rest of the page is still completely about law enforcement which makes it an unbalanced page. What do you think should be done: a) create a sub-page about BWV for law enforcement and move 95% of the content to that new page, or b) leave it as it is and hope other writers will in time contribute content on other uses or c) change the page back to BWV for law enforcement and include a general remark on the other uses and redirect those readers to Wearable technology and/or Action camera and/or GoPro? Thanks very much for your thoughts on this. --Sanderflight (talk) 07:40, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Like that? FT2  09:06, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Like it a lot! Thanks. Sanderflight (talk) 12:57, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Invitation to Admin confidence survey

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For the Anti-harassment tools team, SPoore (WMF), Community Advocate, Community health initiative (talk) 20:56, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Thank note

Kept on forgetting to thank you for your kind advice, my apologies. I will re-read them again when the time is near and ask more specific questions. Thanks again for your help. Alex Shih 15:43, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

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Nomination for deletion of Template:NMLink

Template:NMLink has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Frietjes (talk) 20:45, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Your edit of Meltdown (security vulnerability) mechanism section

You sure that dumping 2 pages of a margin-to-margin text is helpful here? My take is that the article should compromise between brevity and accessibility. In this case, people who are really interested, know the background. So 4 short lines of actual pseudo-code (as was in the original contribution I wrote) was all what was necessary for professionals. One could understand in 10 seconds, I got a fair amount of feedback, it was not my exposition anyway, I simply took and adapted to Misplaced Pages a presentation idea which made ME understand the topic, from Quora. The article grew after my initial (Mechanism) posting, it was kinda OK as the original 4 line exposition was still there, and it was reasonable to give some on-hand explanations. But you removed those 4 lines, and had put a condensed CS lecture instead, with the exploit itself buried in long lines of text, and, frankly, dumbed down by using specific numbers.

There is no way to argue "what is better", and waste of energy. I do not know, I just have an opinion. But can we agree that I restore, as "pseudo-code summary of exploit for professionals" the original 4 short lines? A sub-section. It will save time for some people. Szafranpl (talk) 10:58, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of File:World-map(zoo act).gif

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Proposed deletion of File:World-map(zoo media).gif

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Quasar

Hello- thanks for investing some effort in the Quasar article, it's certainly in need of a lot of work. However I'm concerned about the addition of a lengthy section on "Redshift Controversy". Although the end of the section is clear about the scientific outcome, the length and content of the section gives too much attention to a fringe viewpoint that and I think there's a false balance issue by focusing on the idea that a tiny number of dissenters represented a "controversy". So, I propose to remove the "Redshift Controversy" section altogether and replace with just a few sentences in the section on the history of quasar observations. Please see Talk:Quasar if you have a chance. Thanks-- Aldebarium (talk) 14:55, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Quick note on Greek plurals, not that you asked

Hi, this is pretty minor, and I don't mean to nitpick, but I noticed in this edit it appears that you (?) intended to use the word "phenomenae" as a kind of plural of "phenomena"— which would make total sense if "phenomena" were Latin and singular! Alas, it is Greek, and in this form it is already plural (the singular form being "phenomenon") so "phenomena" is actually as plural as it gets! I have fixed the spelling in the article, just wanted to point this out quick while I thought of it. No harm, no foul, and an easy mistake. Cheers! A loose noose (talk) 03:38, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

File:Corbyn-wreath-tunisia.jpg

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File:Mear One - Freedom for Humanity (mural).jpg

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Precious

"compulsive fixer of mess"

Thank you for quality articles such as Berghuis v. Thompkins, Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant and Nancy Friday, for service from 2004, for admin and other services, for essays saying "most are there because they honestly want to make it better and to help", - "compulsive fixer of mess", repeating (21 October 2008): you are an awesome Wikipedian!

Awesome

Ten years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:34, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

A year ago, you were recipient no. 2053 of Precious, a prize of QAI! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:08, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

West Africa Ebola virus epidemic

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WP:V

Hello. You added information to The Mikado, but you did not cite WP:Reliable sources to verify the information. Please see WP:V and WP:OR for more information. Thank you! -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:08, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

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Adding nepali wikipedia

Hello sir, If I search on english wikipedia about Nepali wikipedia it will redirect us into wikipedi article please fix it and create a page on Nepali wikipedia. Thankyou पर्वत सुबेदी (talk) 16:43, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

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Copyvio

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Vertical airspeeds of Boeing Max 737s in 2018-2019 crashes.jpg

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ArbCom 2019 special circular

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Administrator account security (Correction to Arbcom 2019 special circular)

ArbCom would like to apologise and correct our previous mass message in light of the response from the community.

Since November 2018, six administrator accounts have been compromised and temporarily desysopped. In an effort to help improve account security, our intention was to remind administrators of existing policies on account security — that they are required to "have strong passwords and follow appropriate personal security practices." We have updated our procedures to ensure that we enforce these policies more strictly in the future. The policies themselves have not changed. In particular, two-factor authentication remains an optional means of adding extra security to your account. The choice not to enable 2FA will not be considered when deciding to restore sysop privileges to administrator accounts that were compromised.

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Nomination of Deep trance identification for deletion

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Woohoo

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From the Birthday Committee, CAPTAIN RAJU 17:34, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

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Best wishes, CAPTAIN RAJU 15:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

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Edits to MEGA cloud storage page

Hi FT2. I saw your name in the edit history for file hosting service and your user page says you like helping other editors, so I wanted to reach out.

I proposed a few additions and trims to a page on MEGA, a service known historically for file hosting, here. I proposed the edits rather than making them since I work for the company and have a conflict of interest.

I used the Request Edit template, but nobody actually came. I was wondering if I could borrow you to take a look and implement or reject the proposed edits as you deem fit. MichaelFriedberg (talk) 00:32, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Nomination of Legality of bestiality by country or territory for deletion

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Beeblebrox (talk) 22:37, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Day!

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From the Birthday Committee, CAPTAIN RAJU 21:31, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of File:BLP flowchart.png

The file File:BLP flowchart.png has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Unused, apart from font, pretty much redundant to File:BLP flowchart.svg.

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FT2, I'm deleting this because it seems redundant but will restore it upon request or you can choose to do this yourself, of course. Liz 21:04, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Jan Smit (paleontologist)

Thanks for creating Jan Smit (paleontologist). I was reading a book that bemoans the lack of a Misplaced Pages page for him. I was about to set about rectifying that, only to find you already had. TJRC (talk) 19:05, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

References

1. Brannen, Peter (2017). The Ends of the World : Volcanic Apocalypses, Lethal Oceans, and Our Quest to Understand Earth's Past Mass Extinctions. New York: HarperCollins. ISBN 9780062364821. The Alverezes published first and were immortalized in one of the most cited papers in the history of Geology. Jan Smit doesn't have a Misplaced Pages page.

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Nomination for deletion of Template:POV title

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Nomination for deletion of Template:SPIcase/old

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18:12, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Happy Adminship Anniversary!

Wishing FT2 a very happy adminship anniversary on behalf of the Birthday Committee! Best wishes! CAPTAIN RAJU 12:22, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

CN Lester edits

Hi FT2,

Firstly thank you for the prompt response on pronoun correction for CN.

Is it possible for you to remove incorrect category tags on their page as well? They are currently listed under the categories https://en.wikipedia.org/Category:British_male_singer-songwriters and 21st century British male singers which is incorrect. I am unfortunately on mobile and a bit of a wiki noob or I would do it myself.

Cheers! 62.252.219.69 (talk) 14:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi FT2, re this also, you note that this had happened before in your edit message. Do you think semi-protection might be appropriate for this page? I'd do it myself but I know CN (very very very vaguely) socially. Morwen (talk) 15:34, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

1. No need to fix categories, as someone else got there first. But worth knowing, anyone can fix categories. Click the very last edit link, and right at the bottom of the editable text, very last lines usually, you'll see categories, language links etc. Add or delete as needed.
2. I don't see a need (at this point anyway) for any protection. I checked the history some months back as usual. If it happens again, any time sooon, it'll be hard to see it as anything but deliberate/vandalism, and then we deal with that. Hopefully wont happen. But for now, no, hopefully wont need it, but lets see. It should be clear to an IP editor.

Best FT2  20:09, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

off-wiki complaint

How was the complaint delivered? Is there VRT ticket i can reference. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:36, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra - no. I have transgender friends, and I got word of mouth via a friend who knows I edit, that the subject of that BLP was wondering if they would have to correct their page regularly, or what to do, and wondered if I had any suggestions. So, without being involved in that social circle otherwise, and without otherwise mentioning it, I took a look and it seemed simple and uncontroversial. So I decided to try and make one BLP subjects future a bit less likely to have it happen again, as the edit shows. I didnt speak to whoever originated it, so I dont know if the complainant was the BLP subject, someone connected to them, or someone who read their social media, or whatever. FT2  19:46, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I went ahead an SP'd with a MOS:GENDER note. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:48, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

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Happy First Edit Day!

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Happy First Edit Day!

Happy First Edit Day!

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From the Birthday Committee, Comr Melody Idoghor (talk) 11:19, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

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Tdmurlock (talk) 07:34, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Please change 65 Ma to 66 Ma

The page https://en.wikipedia.org/Tanis_(fossil_site) and the file page https://en.wikipedia.org/File:North_america_65mya.png both state that the meteor impact occured approximately 65 million years ago, but that should be corrected to approximately 66 million years ago. AlexanderDecommere (talk) 19:30, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

You can edit this! Anyone can! Please if it needs doing and sources agree, do so, dont feel you need to ask me!

FT2  21:32, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Five years!

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Precious anniversary

Precious

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