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|text=<big>'''WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES'''</big><br /> The article ] is currently subject to '''discretionary sanctions''' authorized by active arbitration remedies (see ]). The current restrictions are: |
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|style="padding-left:10px"|'''Important notice''': Prior discussion has determined that the name '''<u>Republic of Macedonia</u>''' will be used in this article, and changes to the name without discussion at ] will be reverted. '''Discussion of the naming issue should be posted to the subpage ].''' |
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* Editors may not make any modifications to the official name of this country until consensus has determined that the name has officially changed. |
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|style="padding-left:10px"|'''Important notice''': Misplaced Pages's naming conventions for entities called "Macedonia" or "Macedonian" are proposed at ''']'''. These conventions represent the ] of editors here. If you are new to this article and have a question or suggestion regarding naming, please read the naming conventions first. |
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{{consensus|The title of this article has been established by a binding consensus process at ]. Further discussion takes place ].}} |
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''This information has been placed in a collapse box to improve readability..'''</span>'' |
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Previous discussion have been archived. Editors interested in improving this article are encouraged to see also <br> |
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===Law about albanian=== |
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|itn2date=27 March 2020 |
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|otd1date=2005-09-08|otd1oldid=22870460 |
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Please notice that the Macedonian constituion says |
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{{quote|1="The Macedonian language, written using its Cyrillic alphabet, is the official language in the Republic of Macedonia. |
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|otd4date=2008-09-08|otd4oldid=236877141 |
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In the units of local self-government where the majority of the inhabitants belong to a nationality, in addition to the Macedonian language and Cyrillic alphabet, their language and alphabet are also in official use, '''in a manner determined by law.''' |
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|otd6date=2010-09-08|otd6oldid=383552132 |
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In the units of local self-government where there is a considerable number of inhabitants belonging to a nationality, their language and alphabet are also in official use, in addition to the Macedonian language and Cyrillic alphabet, '''under conditions and in a manner determined by law.'''" .}} |
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|otd8date=2012-09-08|otd8oldid=511192795 |
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Now, just a few days ago a national law was passed that "''doesn't allow for use of Albanian or any other minority language as a second official language on Macedonia's territory''" |
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{{WikiProject North Macedonia|importance=Top}} |
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So, if you are going to make an argument about keeping the albanian name on the lead, then please make it about linguistic minorities, historical stuff, etc, and not about the languages section of the constitution, as their constitution allows for laws to regulate the official languages and albanian has now been regulated as not being an official language. --] (]) 13:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC) |
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: Albanians comprise 30 % of the population of Macedonia and it is very natural to include the Albanian name as well. The constitution states that Albanian language is also official where Albanians are majority or have more than 20 %. The news you are refering to that says Albanian is not official since the parliament has passed a new law, lacks facual accuracy. The new law was passed to improve the staus of the Albanian language and is a part of the deal between Gruevski and Ali Ahmeti. I do not know how much you can about law but a law can not change the constitution. All laws that are in conflict with the constituion are ilegal and therefore I don't buy the lie that the parliament decided to make Albanian "unofficial". The largest Albanian daily in Macedonia, Lajm Maqedoni, had this news on 26.07.2008: Albanians language, official language in Macedonia, if you can Albanian you can read it here: http://www.lajmpress.com/index.php?faqe=shfaqlajm&id=2364. The new law only regulates the communication between the parliament and the government. Albanians in the parliament if the conditions are met will be able to communicate in Albanian with the Macedonian government. Mina seems to be based in Canada and is not neutral as far as I can see. Even if you contest Albanian being official in Macedonia we can use the population-percentage argument. 30 % of the people there call it "Republika e Maqedonisë". I will include it now. Hope you don't have anything against it. PS: I understand Serbs being nationalists since they can look back at a Serbian state some 700 years ago, but I don't understand Slavic Macedonians. --] (]) 14:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC) |
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::First, Albanians make up 25% of the total population, not 30%. Second, the new law that passed a few days ago did not make Albanian unofficial because Albanian was never official. Third, since Mina is based in Canada wouldn't that make it neutral? Canada is one of the most neutral countries on Earth. Fourth, in March 2008, the Democratic Party of Albanians walked out of parliament because six demands that they had were not met. One of those demands was that the Albanian language be made official (see 6th paragraph). Since there has been no announcement that the demand has not been met, the Albanian language has not been made official. Thus, I am taking the Albanian name out.-- '']'' 15:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC) |
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:::You are complitely wrong. The law on the languages used between the parliament and the government of Macedonia, was proposed by Ali Ahmeti's BDI and do you think they would have proposed a law that goes against Albanian interests. Do you? The law is part of the deal between Ahmeti and Gruevski, you have read or seen on TV that they have formed government together. You seems to know very little about Misplaced Pages rules. Misplaced Pages does not list the names on different languages based on which languages are official but what is relevant. Here it is relevant to take with Albanian because 30 % of the people speak Albanian, Macedonia borders both Kosovo and Albania and the Constituion of Macedonia makes Albanian an official langauge. Racist attempts to not include Albanian will not give any fruits. You and your friends are trying to equalize Rep. of Macedonia with Slavic Macedonians but you comprise 60 % of the population. The others should also be heard and Misplaced Pages is edited according to neutral point of view. I once againg ask you to read your country's constitution and don't make childish statements. A consitution can NOT be changed by a law. Albanian is official language in Macedonia in all cites where Albanians have at least 20 % of the population. In addition the passports of Albanians are both in Macedonian and Albanian (remember this applys only to ethnic Albanians in Macedonia). Some examples: http://tetovo.gov.mk/, is both in Albanin and Macedonian, http://www.struga.gov.mk/, both in Albanian and Macedonian with Albanians as dfeault language. You see these are government sites and Albanian is official. No more to say about this. Your edit is reverted. --] (]) 16:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC) |
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::::You are right about one thing: Misplaced Pages does not list names in different languages based on which languages are official but what is relevant. But the thing is that this is the Republic of Macedonia, not the Republic of Albania or Kosovo or any other entity of a Greater Albania. Thus, Albanian is irrelevant. And just because Macedonia borders Albania and Kosovo, doesn't mean it needs to be included (ex: ] does not include the German name). I am not sure what you mean by "fruits" but I am not being racist, I am being politically correct. You say that Albanian is official in municipalities where Albanians make up at least 20% of the total population, which is correct. However, this law says nothing about minorities making up 20% of the entire country.-- '']'' 17:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC) |
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::::: Once again I ask you to stop with your nationalistic POV and respect the fact that Albanians comprise 30 % of the people in Macedonia and that Albanian is official language in Macedonia, including in Skopje/Shkup. Take a look at the website of the Skopje muncipality. Do you see a language button with Albanian eagle?? http://www.skopje.gov.mk/en/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=1. --] (]) 22:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::: There ''is'' a link to an Albanian version on the Skopje website (no eagle though), to the right of the English button. |
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:::::: Let me make a suggestion here. There is a comparable example in my own country, the United Kingdom. The official languages of the UK are English and Welsh, and public bodies are obliged by law to publish material in both languages. Gaelic is also spoken in Scotland and Northern Ireland. However, that language only enjoys official status in the municipalities where it is most widely spoken. It is not a national language in the same sense as English or Welsh. |
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{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn|target=Talk:North_Macedonia/Archive_index|mask=Talk:North Macedonia/Archive <#>|leading_zeros=0|indexhere=yes}} |
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:::::: What editors need to do, therefore, is find some law or constitutional provision (comparable to the ] in the UK) that mandates Albanian as a national language, with equivalent status to Macedonian throughout the country. If Albanian is only mandated in certain areas then it is by definition not a ''national'' language. -- ] (]) 23:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::What are you saying? Misplaced Pages is not obliged to follow Macedonian laws and we shouldn't do it either. We have to follow NPOV and that means we should include how 30 % of the people call that country. All other alternatives would be racist since other groups other than Slavic Macedonians are discriminated. Albanian is an official language in Rep. Macedonia/FYROM and should be included. By the way this article is biased towards Slavic Macedonian and should be edited to reflect that almost 40 % of that country's population is other than Slavic. I will come back to that.--] (]) 06:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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::::::: That sounds like a great idea. So until some documentation is found that says that the Albanian language is offical in Macedonia, then it will be kept out.-- '']'' 1:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::: I don't know where have you lived for the past 7 years but Albanian has been official for many years now. Like it or not. I have provided many links(gov. websites of Skopje, Tetovo, Struga) so I wonder what more do you want? --] (]) 06:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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Umm, Albanian is not official on a national level in the Republic of Macedonia. That's why the Albanians are complaining. If it was official, they wouldn't be complaining. Obviously. Albanian is official in some municipalities, as are Turkish, Aromanian, Serbian and Romany. And Noah, please stop throwing the word "racist" around. Please be ]. ''']]''' 06:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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:That's pretty much right, BalkanFever. Noah, Misplaced Pages is not "obliged to follow Macedonian laws". What we ''are'' obliged to do is reflect accurately the effect of those laws. If the Albanian language has equal national status with Macedonian, like Swedish in Finland, then it's appropriate to give both versions of the country's name in the intro. (See the top of the ], ] and ] articles for examples of how countries with two or more equal-status national languages are treated.) But as far as I'm aware, nobody here has yet cited a source that states that Albanian ''is'' an equal-status national language, as opposed to a regionally-mandated language like Basque or Scots Gaelic. In such cases, we don't present them in article intros as equal to the national language. (See the top of ] for an example - note the lack of Basque, Catalan or Gallego names for the country). -- ] (]) 07:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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::It's tough for me; I must accept that, but I do have to agree with both BalkanFever and ChrisO. There is no law or constitutional article upgrading Albanian to a "national-level language". And it is not just the case of Spain Chris mentioned, but of Albania as well; I do not see the Greek name (Albania has a Greek minority in its south) in the country's intro. So, let's keep things the way they are throughout all similar wikipedia articles. And do not evoke again the country's constitution as you did in one of your reverted edits, because it does not say what you argue it says!--] (]) 08:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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:::I agree with the users above. Personally, I think Albanian ''should'' be official in Macedonia (and I think the same thing about many other regional languages in different countries) but that is not the case. Looking at countries with significant minorities such as ], ], ], ] and others, they always give the name ''only''in the official languages of the countries, not in regional languages and/or languages of large minorities. Only when more than one language is an official language of the whole country, as in ], ], ], ] and others, does Misplaced Pages display names in those languages. In other words, this is very simple case. As long as Misplaced Pages has the present policy, we're not going to follow an alternative policy for Macedonia. ] (]) 08:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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==Motto== |
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I now noticed that the country's motto is presented to be the same with Greece's. I may be an ignorant on the issue, but I would like to know where this motto is officially mentioned, because I see no explanation in the article, no citation, no link. Per ] I would like to know if indeed this is the country's motto.--] (]) 09:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:By "''presented to be the same with Greece's''" do you suggest that the motto was stolen? You're other points might be valid (maybe another Macedonian knows more about the motto, sourcing etc.) but I hope this isn't one of those "Skopjan theft" arguments that have been going around time and time again. ''']]''' 10:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::Your answer is irrelevant and does not cover me. At least I can tell you that Greece used this motto during the Revolution of 1821. When did FYROM's people exactly use it? |
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:::This motto is neither in the ]. Anyway, provide sources per ] that this is indeed the country's motto or it will be removed.--] (]) 10:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::: True, same for Greece actually. It's unsourced over there too. In my understanding, a "country motto" should only be included if it's officially legislated. Is this motto contained somewhere in the Greek constitution or something like that, where national symbols are defined, along with the flag and the anthem? I have no doubt people in both nations use it and regard it as a national symbol of sorts, but that's really not the point. ] ] 10:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::The motto in the case of Greece comes from the flag itself. As Wikipedian's article says "It is still in use today, and is symbolically evoked by the use of 9 stripes (for the nine syllables of the motto) in the Greek flag." So, the motto in the case of Greece is an integral part of the flag itself. Any use of the motto in the search engines links to Greece-related web pages. I just mention , where you can see that the motto was indeed written on the first Greek flags. Can anybody find something similar for FYROM?--] (]) 10:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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(edit conflict)Yannismarou, I said your point about sourcing might be valid, but I myself don't know. And could you please not sound so demanding? It really doesn't matter at all what ] about 1821. I merely pointed out that your original comment seemed a bit like an accusation. If it wasn't, sorry, but that's pretty much all that one sees on this page. ''']]''' 10:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:No offence taken. I just ask for the implementation of ]. I just say that in the case of Greece the motto appears in a series of flags, and was officially used during the ervolution of 1821 (and this is not OR). It is also an integral part of the current flag. I want to know what is the case for FYROM. If there is no basis for its use in FYROM's page, it should go. If there is, then ok! That's all!--] (]) 10:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:: Yannis, was it ever part of an ''official'' flag of the Greek state? Those that you linked to were apparently private banners of some warlords or local communities. And of course there was no Greek state in 1821 that possibly could have had an offical motto. As for the modern flag, I don't quite see the link - "symbolically evoked by the use of 9 stripes (for the nine syllables of the motto)" is a bit far-fetched, unless that interpretation is itself enshrined in some officially legislated definition. ] ] 10:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::The first flag you see in Notablilia was official used during the Greek Revolution (let's just note that this flag and the motto constituted the official emblem of ]). Allow me also when I go home to check the revolutionary constitutions, but the flags which led to the creation of the official flag of Greece and you see in Notabilia already had the motto. I just hope that its use during the Greek Revolution is not questioned here, because this is indeed far-fetched. In any case, if you have a problem about the Greek motto, you are free to go to the country's talk page and raise the issue. Here we are in the FYROM's page, and we discuss about itsd motto. And I just ask not for legal binding texts, but just for some historical indications that it was ever used by FYROM's people!!! Where is the historical background of the motto concerning FYROM?--] (]) 11:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::::It was apparently used on revolutionary banners during the ], for one thing, so the insurgency background would be somehow similar. ] ] 12:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::Source?--] (]) 14:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::::::One such banner is pictured on the Ilinden uprising page. I agree some backing from the secondary literature would be good of course. ] ] 15:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::Do you speak about the picture Image:Ohrid Banner1.jpg? But the caption says that this is the Bulgarian flag. Am I missing something? And, of course, just a picture of a banner with no further supporting material is not enough to prove that this was an established motto.--] (]) 15:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::: The caption (which was written by a bunch of well-known Bulgarian POV warriors, but that only as an aside) relates to the fact that the banner uses the colors of the Bulgarian flag, sure. But it was the banner used by the revolutionaries in Macedonia, to whom the current Macedonian nation likes to trace its origins, for better or worse. (Besides, of course, "just a picture with no supporting material" is still about as much as we have for the Greek motto, when it comes to usage on flags.) ] ] 15:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Lol, ''by a bunch of well-known Bulgarian POV warriors''? Didn't see that coming. Are we talking about the Bulgarian flag on the article - the one that was used in the ] as well and is definitely the white-green-and-red of Bulgaria. Seems like it, why should the caption be POV? Sorry, no POV pushing there - this is the BG flag as simple as that. Now to the topic since this is what lead me here. I don't think there should be a problem with the motto. For instance, tons of countries have the same one as Bulgaria. I was translating the article in Bulgarian the other day and saw 4-5 countries (besides Belgium of which I knew and also knew was the country that inspired Bulgaria to use the motto) with exactly the same (Unity makes strength) or the slightly different ''Unity is strength''. Therefore such repeating mottos don't seem like a problem in any context (political or whatever). I tried to find out an official usage of the motto though and couldn't find it on any of the top RoM governmental web-sites. MKpedia doesn't show it either. Despite that I do remember seeing it somewhere. I've remembered it like that and the source was certainly not WIkipedia, but I don't seem to know how exactly I acquired the info. --'''] <sup>]</sup>''' 23:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::::How can you say that?! It is outrageous to make this comparison, when there is such a bibliography that it was the official motto of the Greek Revolution; namely when the Hellenic Republic was shaped. The comparison of one flag the caption says is Bulgarian and you say is "Slav-Macedonian" with no supporting material with the use of "Eleftheria i Thanatos" in the Greek case is outrageous! Just go to any search engine you want, and if you find "Freedom or Death" related to FYROM, come and tell me about. And allow me to remind you once more that this is the FYROM's page and we speak about its moto; if you have a problem with the Greek motto go to the Greece page, and raise the issue there. Wherever in the net or in Misplaced Pages itself click "Freedom or Death", you will find a reference to Greece. To FYROM?--] (]) 16:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::::::::::By the way, who placed the motto in FYROM's article here the first place?--] (]) 16:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Give it up Yannis please. They - this page is answerable to no one. No one will support the Greeks here. They can do what they want with this page. We have been for ages here removing lies and for every little history lesson we successfully deliver, 3 new lies appear the next day. If anyone besides Greeks actually cared, you would stand a chance. But this battle is lost. Wait for them to be forced to change their name and then come back with me and the others and we will clean this page with reality. Until then, trying to get them to prove anything in this article through a neutral source is rolling a boulder uphill. Just my two cents file. ] (]) 22:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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Yannis, you're getting very close to a topic ban for ]. Please tone it down. |
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*Please refrain from personal attacks.--] (]) 06:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC) |
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The short answer is that "Freedom or death" was the motto of the ] organisation at the turn of the 20th century (see for many references). Greeks certainly don't have a copyright on it- many groups have used the slogan over the years. I think there certainly needs to be a reliable source for the statement that it is the motto of the Republic of Macedonia, but on the face of it, it certainly seems plausible given the association with Macedonian nationalism. -- ] (]) 23:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:*The problem remains, and my request still stands. First, I don't see these "many" citations ChrisO claims to be there; I see some of them. Secondly, IMRO, as the above-mentioned user said, and I quote: "was the motto of the ] organisation at the turn of the 20th century." What is the connection with the current FYROM? Was this motto proposed, when the current state was formed? Additionally, I read from IMRO's article: IMRO was founded "by a "small band of anti-Ottoman Macedono-Bulgarian revolutionaries. "They considered Macedonia an indivisible territory and all of its inhabitants "Macedonians", no matter their religion or ethnicity". The organisation was a secret revolutionary society operating in the late 19th and early 20th centuries with the goal of liberating and uniting Macedonia with Bulgaria." It seems to me that this oranization served Bulgarian interests. Are we sure that its mottos, and emblems express indeed the people of FYROM? It may be indeed the case, but as an ignorant reading IMRO's article I find some inconsistencies in this rationale. So this "short" answer looks to me needing some "expansion". I may be wrong of course.--] (]) 07:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC) |
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Replying to Laveol and Future: the image is not of the Bulgarian flag; there's no green, rather blue. One could theoretically replace that image with ''anything'', and still claim it's the Bulgarian flag, because it's "sourced" (it isn't). BTW, I believe Dennis Hupchik's book says "Macedonian Slav revolutionaries" (not sure though). This was probably changed by one of the POV pushing idiots. Also, this Reaper7 guy seems to be trolling (again). ''']]''' 07:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:''Idiots'' is not one of the things it's ok to be said in Wiki. And, yes, this is the Bulgarian flag as used in the ] as well. --'''] <sup>]</sup>''' 09:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::This just in: ] is not ]. ''']]''' 09:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:::More news: ] can become ]. Especially if you paint with non-age-resistant substances on fabric, keep that fabric out in the open for a hundred years, take a poor-quality photograph of the reflecting surface of the fabric from a poorly chosen angle under artificial lighting conditions, and then photoshop the resulting file. is another photograph of the same object. Whatever color that flag was in the beginning, not much of it seems to be left anyway. ] ] 10:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC) |
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Am I only one to whom this discussion sounds totally ridiculous? Its pretty simple, if it is official motto of Republic of Macedonia, then it shouldn't be hard to find proper source for it. If there isn't one, then it should be removed, its not like every state has motto, many are completely fine without one. So why is this discussion going on about Greek national moto, and about history of Balkans? Problems with greece motto should be adressed in appropriate place, best probably being ]. This discussion should be limited to Macedonian motto, and its simple case of having a source, that what is Greece, or any other state's motto is totally irrelevant.--] (]) 09:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:That is what I say from the fisrt moment. Where is then this "proper source"? But it seems easier for ] to find the ] than for anybody to find a proper source about this motto. Until now we just have a flag, and we do not even know if it is Bulgarian or "Macedonian"!--] (]) 10:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:Yeah, it's gotten off track. I repeat my initial point: A "state motto" is not the same as just any popular slogan considered of national symbolic value. I have no doubt that in both nations the phrase would be regarded as the latter, but that's not the point. A state motto is something given official status in law, side by side with national flags and anthems; or at least something regularly and officially used as part of national symbols, such as state emblems, a caption displayed in connection with the coats of arms etc. I haven't seen anything along those lines for Macedonia yet, and very little of any conclusive value for Greece. A motto of the revolutionary organisations of 1821 / 1905, certainly, but of the modern states? ] ] 10:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::FutPer raises a very interesting issue about mottos in general, but this is not the appropriate place to discuss such a broad topic. Appropriate discussions can take place in the appropriate places. I'll focus on FYROM's motto asking once again some sources that this motto has anything to do with FYROM's people and its continuity (e.g., indications and sources like the ones me and Futper mentioned above about the Greek motto). I must say that, unfortunately, this problem of verifiability is broader and appears in a series of FYROM-related articles. User:Elonka for instance made some very interesting remarks in ] article lately; but again this is not the proper place for such broad discussion; appropriate research and discussion will take place in the appropriate places. I just felt the need to make these remarks, as general comments influenced by this "exhausting" but interesting IMO (despite some unfortunate personal comments above) discussion.--] (]) 11:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC) |
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I feel this is a small (and might be heavily commented upon) contribution to the motto issue. To be realistic here, Greece officialy has no motto at all. The phrase "Ελευθερία ή Θάνατος" ("Freedom or Death"), yes was used by the Greeks fighting for their liberation back at 1820's, it is mentioned also that it was used even before that during the failed attempts of previous uprisings, but it was adopted from the american revolutionaries that used the exact same phrase during their own war of independance, although I currently do not have any references to it handy. After the liberation war of 1821, the motto in question was not adopted as the official motto of the country ever. Using interpretations or explanations of the meaning of the blue and white stripes of our flag as the official "proof" of the use of the motto just isnt right. |
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One can also look at it in a different way, if you need an "indirect" proof for the use of the motto. Every country that has officially adopted a motto, usually puts it on the national emblem. The Greek national emblem never had a motto on it, rather than several kinds of figures (crowns, owls, etc) depending on the regime. |
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Additionaly, Greeks have used several different mottos depending on the times, the places etc. |
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For the official Greek emblem you can visit the most official source: |
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Additionally there is not a single article in the Greek Constitution that refers to a national motto. And in my opinion, any country can use any kind of motto they like, as long as it doesnt offend anyone else. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:10, 26 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Sorry, I just found out about the signature --] (]) 20:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC) |
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Macedonian: '''Слобода или Смрт''' (Transliterated: '''Sloboda ili Smrt'''); English: '''Freedom or Death''' is official Macedonian motto, I live in Macedonia and I know this. ] (]) 14:18, 23 August 2008 (UTC) |
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::yo peeps, you asked sources about the Greek motto "Eleftheria i Thanatos" Freedom or Death. well here's some, non-Greek sources who explicitly strap the motto to Greek Independence: <Turkish one of 1988. ] (]) 02:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC) |
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::also i think (and others think too ) that the motto comes via the Bulgarian uprising of 1897 and not straight from Greek. see and ] (]) 02:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC) |
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== About NATO == |
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Shoudn't it be mentioned the fact that Greece put Veto in the country's potential NATO entry?] (]) 17:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC) |
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Yes I agree that this should be included. - ] (]) <small>—Preceding ] comment was added at 16:12, 27 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:So, ], I suggest adding it at the end of ] section as the best place for it. --] (]) 16:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC) |
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== Hi can you please add this link == |
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Hi, |
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I've added a link last Friday I think. The link is being marked as potential spam. The link is not spam (www . Travel2Macedonia . com .mk) |
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This website has been also added to the Macedonian part of wikipedia, and marked as website of significant importance to the section. |
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If you can add it to the English part it would be a nice thing. |
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Thanks in advance, |
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Goran <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 07:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:There are already two links on the "Travel" section of external links: National Tourism Portal and a link that says "city guides" (altought I'm not sure of what it's talking about). |
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:Can you ellaborate on how your link provides information that those two links don't already cover? Or how we need another tourism portal when we already link to the official one? From point 1 of ], does it offer an unique resource that isn't covered already? --] (]) 13:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC) |
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::The first link coverage is OK. However the other site coverage is not larger than Travel2Macedonia web site. You can see it for yourself if you have time to do it. |
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::regads, |
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::Goran <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::The second tourism links comparing to Travel2Macedonia web site provides information, but less. However, Travel2Macedonia web site is a portal for foreigners and travelers only and provides detailed information for over 25 destinations in Macedonia. {{unsigned|Gorco|13:36, 29 July 2008}} |
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:::I replied on Gorco's talk page. --] (]) 15:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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== Don't forget of ] == |
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Don't forget of ] or it may be considered a propaganda stance. People are losing their breath to provide arguments yet they are summary deleted without even being moved there. --] (]) 07:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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:Is there really anything left to say that hasn't been said a hundred times already? -- ] (]) 07:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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::that's what I'm talking about, like the above comment, dismissing people's comments without even looking at them. --] (]) 22:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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:::I replied on ]. --] (]) 08:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC) |
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== Typo == |
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*There's a typo in the article. The sentence, "Macedonian military — the Macedonian Armed Forces - is the name of the unified armed forces of the Republic of Macedonia with Macedonian Army, Macedonian Air Force." is a fragment. I can't edit it, but someone please fix it. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:*I looked at the main article for that section, and tried to fix the sentence a bit . --] (]) 18:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC) |
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== Odd appearance of a scroll bar == |
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Whenever I load this page, I get a scroll bar along the bottom of my window. You can see a screenshot . I only get it on this article. Is there some kind of formatting error that is causing this?--] (]) 23:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC) |
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:I think you should scroll all the way to the right and check if there's any text or a template that's making the page wider than it should be. ''']]''' 07:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC) |
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::I did. I don't see anything.--] (]) 14:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Well, I'm not sure. Maybe see if ] can help. Or you could switch to Firefox ;). ''']]''' 07:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC) |
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::::Possibly due to non-formatted urls in footnotes that were too long for the page width. Tried to fix it. ] ] 09:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC) |
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==Kosovo?== |
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Regarding , haven't we been through this already? What version should we leave up? ] <small>]</small> 14:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC) |
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:We have been there, see ]. I repost a pair of my comments from there: |
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{{quote|1=Maybe, but take into account that it has been recognized as independient by several major countries (or at least that's what the ] article states. If you look at , you will see that the maps have evolved from and on to directly (...) My point was that maps from 2008 now paint Kosovo and Serbia as two separate entities, so Kosovo should be on the list of entities surrounding Montenegro. Identical argument for the map on ] having Kosovo listed there too.}} |
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:--] (]) 20:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC) |
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== Misplaced Pages Manual of Style == |
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I've made an edit to the top of this page which previously (inaccurately) suggested there is a consensus on a naming convention for Republic of Macedonia. I just wish to make clear my personal intent is not to start a micro editing war on this particular article. (and would recommend blocking anyone whose primary focus is changing other people's references from one to the other) However, I think it's important to recognize there is no consensus either on Misplaced Pages (the Manual of Style page has clearly stated for a long time it is only a ''proposal'')... nor in the global community which still goes by both terms (including most international organizations and large English speaking nations like the US and UK which still use BOTH FYROM and Republic of Macedonia for official purposes). |
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Misplaced Pages naming conventions explicitly state their can be exceptions. Given the very unusual circumstances of the situation in this instance, to take one side of self-described Macedonians over the other would appear to infringe on the rights of either millions of FYR Macedonians.... or millions of Greek Macedonians. Both their human rights should probably take precedence over all other considerations until the name issue is resolved by either of their respective governments (or the international community). As long as an article makes clear what is being talked about, I don't believe their is an absolute technical, moral or legal justification for individual contributers not being allowing to use either name freely without censorship. ] (]) 18:16, 30 August 2008 (UTC) |
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:Well, but here's what the Greek Macedonians (and the Greeks as a whole) fail to realize, and what justifies Misplaced Pages's stance on this matter: most people in the world who are familiar with this issue and are not Greeks, see this dispute as (to say the least) petty on the Greek side. I am not commenting on the nature of the dispute as this is not a forum, but Greeks cannot expect that Misplaced Pages, which is run by consensus forged among people editing from all over the world, will abide by this sentiment of "Greeks feeling their human rights are being disrespected" (erm, and when it comes to human rights violations, that one must have slipped of the list). The Manual of Style is fine the way it is, there is quite a consensus over it (especially if Greek and Macedonian users are sieved out). We use "Republic of Macedonia" except in very specific circumstances where, thanks to Greek impositions, we cannot avoid and have to cope with one of the ugliest creations of modern history, "FYROM". <strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 01:43, 31 August 2008 (UTC) |
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::Congratulations on your new appointment as the voice of "most people in the world". Care to enlighten us why no international organization subscribes to your view? Unfortunately Misplaced Pages has much lower standards on naming countries than international organizations, which stems from the fact that articles on fine legal issues such as this are not reviewed by experts such as diplomats and lawyers. In fact, why don't you check what ''your own country'' uses as an official name when dealing with FYROM? It seems suddenly this "whole world" got smaller huh? --] 02:29, 31 August 2008 (UTC) |
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:::No, I expect Greeks to enlighten themselves, as they used to thousands of years ago. Fortunately, Misplaced Pages has much higher standards on naming countries than international organizations, as we're run by consensus and common sense here, not by who's pulling the strings somewhere. And fortunately, on Misplaced Pages it is still useless to attack commenters in a futile attempt to discredit them. Coz it often backfires, and for good reason. Diplomats and lawyers having the last word on Misplaced Pages?! We're trying to build a credible encyclopedia (and this comes from someone whose areas are precisely international law and diplomacy). Oh, and why on Earth would you come up with this Portugal's position on the matter? Since when do I, as Portuguese, have to agree or even express my stance towards a position taken by my country? Portugal may have a lot of bad things, but here we're still very free to have opinions, free to think for ourselves, and free to disagree if we have to. The patriotic always-follow-your-country attitude hasn't been the trend here for decades. Were you actually expecting me to be ashamed or embarrassed just because my country has a different position?! Anyway, this is all very amusing but it's not for here. Not a forum. <strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 03:17, 31 August 2008 (UTC) |
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::::If indeed you are an expert on the subjects of international law and diplomacy, I ''urge'' you to edit on Macedonia subjects, adding useful references and scientific insight. Most articles are currently hijacked by nationalists and people who clearly do not understand the nuances of politics. I'm afraid though that your stated expertise contradicts with your comments above, which simply lack any scientific merit and show a lack of understanding of the issue, which is the monopolization of the name Macedonia by one entity. And regarding Portugal, my intention wasn't of course to make you feel "ashamed", why should you, just to show that people who hold official positions and are experts on the matter, and of which I'd expect you should at least have heard their position since they're your compatriots, have been much more careful. --] 04:57, 31 August 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::The articles on Macedonia are well monitored and the not infrequent attempts to enforce POV are promptly repealed. My expertise not only does not contradict my understanding of the Macedonia issue, as I also don't think that issue requires much expertise for comprehension anyway. There is no monopolization of the name "Macedonia", the article is named "Republic of Macedonia", and as far as I remember, there's only one such thing. Of course the article could also be called "FYROM" (yuck!) since many countries and entities recognize it only as such, but on Misplaced Pages there is consensus to opt for "Republic of Macedonia", a name also recognized by many others and, especially, the only constitutional name of the country. To the eyes of international law, all is well. In Portugal, like everywhere else, people holding official positions are rarely experts on the matter they are responsible for. Decisions are made during chit-chats in corridors, not after hearing experts. And when it comes to the official position of my compatriots, I naturally follow it closely but I am not associated with it and therefore need not to be any careful. <strong><font style="color: #082567">]</font>]<font style="color: #082567">]</font></strong> 14:57, 31 August 2008 (UTC) |
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The point is, there ''is'' a consensus on naming the country, and this was achieved through the proposed guideline. The fact that it's a ''proposed'' guideline doesn't mean that the consensus carries less weight. ''']]'''<sup>]</sup> 04:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC) |
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::Why does ] link here if it uses the Macedonian consitutional name? The UN and other entities official recognize FYROM as well. its fine using one convention within the article, but the there should be FYROM somewhere in the titles. (infobox, first bold letters???). |
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::Especially since FYROM links here. Many linking through articles just take cursory glances here and there. ] (]) 19:35, 10 September 2008 (UTC) |
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The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia redirects here because it is another name for the subject of the article. This is the same through out Misplaced Pages. ] redirects to ] for example. See ]] <small>]</small> 22:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC) |
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== Pronunciation of Name == |
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The article should note that the English pronunciation of Macedonia with a "soft c" (pronounced as "s") is actually a MISpronunciation, founded on misunderstanding of Latinic spelling. The CORRECT pronunciation of Macedonia is with a "hard c" (pronounced as "k"), because this is a classical Latinic spelling, in which c is always k (unless it's a hard g in older times, but let's not get into that). ] (]) 00:54, 5 September 2008 (UTC) |
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:This is not a mispronunciation. Simply, English is not Latin. It has its own rules. After all if you want to be faithful to the Latin pronunciation, then you should pronounce it Mah-keh-doh-nih-ah (which means that the current inhabitants of the Republic pronounce it quite close to the Latin name - in case you want to check the sound file). Moreover, the Latin spelling was a transcription of the Greek Μακεδονία. According to your logic, if we want to be faithful to the even earlier original pronunciation, the stress should be in "i" and not in "o". It's a path that usually leads nowhere. Let's keep the English pronunciation to English words.--] 01:01, 5 September 2008 (UTC) |
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::Indeed. English softens the c, like French. ''']]'''<sup>]</sup> 08:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC) |
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::Shouldn't the native Slavic name be the one rendered in the IPA? One would assume that those who can read English already know how to pronounce ''Macedonia''. ] (]) 09:04, 5 September 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Both should be, as with other country articles. All done. ''']]'''<sup>]</sup> 10:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC) |
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::::I've tweaked it to include the Република bit, though I'm not quite sure if it's meant to be an {{IPA4|r}} or {{IPA4|ɾ}}, or an {{IPA4|e}} or {{IPA4|ɛ}}. ] (]) 11:25, 5 September 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::I haven't listened to the file (my computer hates .ogg files) but it would be an alveolar trill, and most likely an ɛ. ''']]'''<sup>]</sup> 11:53, 5 September 2008 (UTC) |
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::::::You probably need to download the right codec. Just click on "help" next to the IPA transcription. To me it sounded rather like the Greek ]. Greek doesn't really distinguish between {{IPA4|e}} and {{IPA4|ɛ}} like, say, French does; rather, it falls somewhere in between. ] (]) 12:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::Still don't know what's up with the codecs, but playing it on the "info" page seems to work well. Anyway, Macedonian doesn't really distinguish between the two either, but from comparison with French it's more like ɛ. Also, the guy seems to be saying with stress on the "li", which is weird. ''']]'''<sup>]</sup> 12:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC) |
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::::::::Perhaps because ]'s from Serbia. They can sound a tad musical. It appears that the Eastern South Slavic languages are more in tune with Greek ]. ] (]) 12:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::::My point is that the Makedonians have the right to name their own nation, and that we should call them what THEY wish to be called. Yes, I know that Japan should be something like Nihon, Egypt should be something like Mishr, Georgia should be Sakartvelo; I've studied all these. ] (]) 20:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC) |
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== Holocaust: Republic of Macedonia should sue Misplaced Pages == |
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The current says: '''''Local''' recruits and volunteers formed the Bulgarian 5th Army, based in Skopje, which was responsible for the round-up and deportation of over 7,000 Jews in Skopje and Bitola.'' How can you keep such highly '''libelous''' claim in the article for months (if not years) without providing any source? This is shocking. I dont have to go through the history pages to understand that it was probably written by some of the Bulgarian or Greek anti-] biased editors. How dare you to call this "encyclopedia"? How can you allow such voluntarism? Dont you have any sence of shame and responsibility? The government and the people of the Republic of Macedonia have every right to sue Misplaced Pages Foundation for defamation. |
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Its the pro-Axis Bulgaria that is responsible for the genocide, not the '''locals'''. Bulgaria occupied and annexed large part of Macedonia including Skopje from 1941-1944 and handed the captured ] to the German Nazis in 1943. |
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*In March 2008, during an official visit to Israel the Bulgarian president ] said: ''Bulgaria accepts responsibility for the genocide of more than 11,000 Jews in its jurisdiction during World War II'' ('''source: ]: , Israel's most influential newspaper, March 2008''') |
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*''Bulgaria cruelly organized and carried out the deportation of the 11,343 Jews of Thrace and Macedonia to Treblinka where all of them were immediately suffocated in the gas chambers. Moreover, the Bulgarian Treasury confiscated their entire property and paid to the Germans a considerable amount of money for having liberated Bulgaria from these Jews. Since the end of the war Bulgaria consistently reminded its alleged positive role vis-a-vis the Jews of ‘old Bulgaria’ concealing at the same time both its cruel anti-Semitic legislation and its criminal acts against the Jews extradited for extermination. Bulgaria has never admitted its crimes, has never asked pardon from the victims, has never offered to return their property but knew very well to ask credit and recognition for the survival of its authentic Jews. The Jewish people and the whole humanity will remember forever the criminal role of King Boris, Hitler’s friend and ally, and his fascist government. In a telegram n.442 of April 4, 1943 Joachim von Ribbentropp reported to Beckerle his Minister in Sofia, that Boris told him on April 1stin Berchtesgaden that he has approved the deportation of the Jews of the annexed territories. Thus Boris is not better than other allies of Hitler as Petain and Laval, Antonescu or Horty who helped to exterminate the undesired ‘alien’ Jews saving some or many of their ‘own’ Jews.'' ('''source: Association of Jews from Macedonia in Israel: , author: Nissim Yosha, Ph.D., 14 Gluskin str, Rehovot 76273, Israel, Phone 972-8-9469567, Fax 972-8-9462105, E-mail nyosha(at)bezeqint.net 7.8.2001''') |
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And why the WWII subsection doesnt include any mention of the ethnic Macedonian anti-fascist ]? Because some tendentious Greek or Bulgarian editors found it "irrelevant"? |
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Shame on you Misplaced Pages Foundation for allowing this to happen, your so called "encyclopedia" lost all of its credibility long time ago (if there was any).--] (]) 19:30, 26 September 2008 (UTC) |
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==Source verification required== |
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Can anyone give an accessible source for verifying the existance and context of the image/emblem of Macedonia (see image download, 'MacedoniaImage:MacedoniaCoA1614.jpg') ? I have tried locating the source (Althan's rolls of arms) but with no luck. Thanks.] (]) 15:24, 29 September 2008 (UTC) |
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==Image copyright problem with Image:OpstiniMK.png== |
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The image ] is used in this article under a claim of ], but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the ] when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an ] linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check |
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:* That there is a ] on the image's description page for the use in this article. |
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:* That this article is linked to from the image description page. |
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<!-- Additional 10c list header goes here --> |
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This is an automated notice by ]. For assistance on the image use policy, see ]. --00:48, 1 October 2008 (UTC) |
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==Moved== |
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One comment moved to ] --] (]) 19:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC) |
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== Return the Macedonian Motto == |
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The motto of the Republic of Macedonia has to be returned. It may be identical to the Greek one, but still it's a national motto and this article about the Republic of Macedonia has right like every other country's article to show the motto. "Freedom or Death" was used in the 1900s in the Macedonia during the Ilinden Uprising which was very important for Macedonia and the Macedonians. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Look, there already was a discussion on this - you should provide a valid source that this is the '''official''' motto of the country. --'''] <sup>]</sup>''' 19:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC) |
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Just as point of interest. As far as I know, Freedom or Death was first used by the revolutionary Greek thinker from Thessalia, Rigas Ferraios in the 1790s. It was adopted by the Greeks in their 1821 Independence war against the Ottoman empire. It then re-emerged in the context of the Bulgarian struggle in the late 19th century. ] (]) 12:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC) |
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==Religion== |
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The Muslim community and the The Jewish community should be under a Religion section not under the generic Demographics section ] (]) 20:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC) |
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==SERBIA CALLS ROM FYROM== |
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http://phantis.com/news/?newsID=20081011130617 |
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] (]) 20:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC) |
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:This needs an official source - it seems that the minister is advocating the change, not that the change has occurred. ] (]) 20:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC) |
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What is rom or ROM? Is it a state in the ]. Invented immaginary terms have no place in a encyclopedia and generally calling states by unproper names is offensive.] (]) 13:09, 15 October 2008 (UTC) |
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::Truthful reporting is paramount because it's offensive to be otherwise.... says FYROM national ] of ]. Relax dude this is just the talk pages. People do use shorthand notation to speed up discussion. I would worry more about your handle which just acts to confirm irredentist intentions. FYRoM's own first President you are not related to ancient Macedonians. --] (]) 20:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC) |
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:::For the last time stop trolling. ''']]''' 09:46, 21 October 2008 (UTC) |
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You should know that for the Greeks it's offensive when you to use the name "Macedonia" since Alexander the Great wasn't Slav nor Albanian... he was Greek, just like his father (Phillip=fried of horses in Greek), his mother Olympias (12 gods of mount Olympus, Olympic games... you don't need to think much to realize that it's Greek), his half-sister Thessaloniki (victory of her father Philip in Thessaly and not Solun!). As you can see it's VERY offensive when you call yourselves with a Greek name which has such a great history. You want to be a Macedonian?... you have to be a Greek ;-) --] (]) 00:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC) |
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:OOh, yes be sure. LOL --] (]) 18:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC) |
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== UK and name choice == |
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(Not sure if this belongs on the separate page for the name dispute, but I'm not disputing the name of the article, fine with me, but there is conflicting information in the article about who recognizes what name): |
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Under the Foreign Relations section, it says: "A number of countries recognise it by its constitutional name – the Republic of Macedonia – rather than the UN reference, notably three of the five permanent UN Security Council members (the United States, Russia, and the People's Republic of China)" - this implies that the UK and France recognize it under FYROM. However, a few paragraphs later under "Macedonia naming dispute": "However, an increasing number of countries have abandoned the United Nations provisional reference and have recognised the country as the Republic of Macedonia or simply Macedonia instead. These include four of the five permanent UN Security Council members, the United States, Russia, United Kingdom and the People's Republic of China," - implying that France is the only one on the UNSC that calls it "FYROM". So, what about the UK, does it or doesn't it? (I assume that with the heated discussions, someone with a POV changed one of the paragraphs without sourcing ... )--] (]) 17:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC) |
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:From ] "''The UK uses the name "Republic of Macedonia" for bilateral relations, and "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" for multilateral relations ''" --] (]) 18:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC) |
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==Heraclea== |
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the expansion happened in 358BC, by then all scholars agree (due to archaeological indisputable findings etc) that Macedon was undeniably Greek. i sourced that with explicit direct mentions to Macedon as Greek. some will hate it, but i don't think is right to hide that from the reader] (]) 01:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC) |
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== fyrom is the only legal name outside the country == |
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<small>(moved to ]) --] (]) 15:19, 29 October 2008 (UTC)</small> |
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== Name and the UN == |
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{{hat|reason=This goes at ] --] (]) 15:14, 1 November 2008 (UTC)}} |
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The name that is used for all the countries in the world is that registered in the United Nations.For example we do not say Great Britain for the official use of the country that is registered as United Kingdom in the UN catalogues...The same must apply for the name of this country.I cannot see the reason why this case should not be applied here.There is no reason to tell the country "Republic of Macedonia" because the Chinese use that as the name they accept.The chinese may tell us whatever they want.The fact is that this country has agreed to use the name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" as its official name.UN is the organisation that legalises states and countries or not by its resolutions.Every other explanation from the authors is biased,whether for the Macedonian Slavs or the Macedonian Greeks. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:08, 1 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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{{hab}} |
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== Did you know ... == |
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], since 1917]] |
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], since 1995]] |
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Curious coincidence ... ] (]) 21:26, 3 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:WOW. They are sooooooo similar. More similar than the Bulgarian and Hungarian flag or the Greek and British East India flag. This is soooo interesting. Please add this to the article so that human knowledge can be further enriched. ''']]''' 02:18, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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== Languages Section == |
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The user ΚΕΚΡΩΨ has written that Greek is spoken in Macedonia. His source claims no such thing and should be replaced or the claim removed. Thank you. ] (]) 06:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:Read it carefully. <small>·<font color="black">]</font>·</small> 06:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::"''The number of languages listed for Macedonia is '''9'''. Of those, all are living languages.''" Living languages: (1)Adyghe; (2)Albanian, Gheg; (3)Balkan Gagauz Turkish; (4)Macedonian; (5)Romani, Balkan; (6)Romanian, Macedo; (7)Romanian, Megleno; (8)Serbian; (9)Turkish. Care to point it out? ] (]) 07:19, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Hmmm, well I searched some more and this link states it pretty clearly: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=ell.] (]) 07:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Still, should it even be mentioned as the Greek minority makes up 0.021% of the population? It would already be covered in the line "and others are spoken roughly in proportion with their associated ethnic groups." ] (]) 07:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:The more important question is why ''you'' want it removed. <small>·<font color="black">]</font>·</small> 08:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::The real question is why did you add it? ''']]''' 08:58, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Why not? It is spoken there, isn't it? Why are you trying to expunge all references to Bulgarian and Greek in the article? <small>·<font color="black">]</font>·</small> 09:01, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::::Yes, by about, what was it, 600 people? Good for them. And they don't get lynched for speaking it either. Wow. ''']]''' 09:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::How many speak But they're politically correct, aren't they? <small>·<font color="black">]</font>·</small> 09:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::::::They are sourced, properly. ''']]''' 10:19, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Have you even bothered to ''read'' the source? I don't know how much clearer it could be. <small>·<font color="black">]</font>·</small> 10:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:It could list it as an actual language. If it went to the trouble of doing it with Adyghe, why not with Greek? ''']]''' 10:26, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::An ''actual'' language. As opposed to "Greek", which isn't. Right. Still, if you insist that "Also includes Greek" is ambiguous, we also have I suppose you'll say that "Macedonia" ''doesn't'' mean the former Yugoslav republic. ''That'''ll be the day. <small>·<font color="black">]</font>·</small> 10:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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== Languages in North Macedonia == |
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:::What, Montenegro? How can "Macedonia" mean Montenegro? ''']]''' 10:34, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Article 7 of the North Macedonian constitution says : |
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::::Exactly. Got absurdity? <small>·<font color="black">]</font>·</small> 10:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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In the Republic of North Macedonia, the official language is the Macedonian language and its Cyrillic script. - Член 7 |
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Во Република Северна Македонија службен јазик е македонскиот јазик и неговото кирилско писмо. ] (]) 18:39, 14 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:Based on Article 7 of the North Macedonian constitution, which states that "In the Republic of North Macedonia, the official language is the Macedonian language and its Cyrillic script," it can be inferred that the Albanian language is not officially recognized as a co-official language in the Republic of North Macedonia. The constitution designates Macedonian as the sole official language. ] (]) 18:41, 14 September 2024 (UTC) |
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By the way, Greek isn't listed separately nor is Australia listed separately You're a Melbourne boy, you tell me: is Greek spoken in your neighbourhood or not? <small>·<font color="black">]</font>·</small> 10:48, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::Furthermore, the Law on Languages of 2019 was not ratified by the President and is deemed to be inconsistent with the North Macedonian Constitution. The Constitutional Court of North Macedonia is set to determine the law's constitutionality in October 2024. ] (]) 18:44, 14 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Until the Constitutional Court of North Macedonia renders a decision on the legality of the Law on Languages, Macedonian remains the sole official language of the Republic. ] (]) 18:50, 14 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::::In light of these developments, I propose that we temporarily remove references to Albanian as an official language of North Macedonia from this article until the Constitutional Court's decision is finalized. This approach ensures that the content remains consistent with the current constitutional provisions and avoids potential misinformation. ] (]) 18:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Seems reasonable. --] <sup>]</sup> 22:49, 19 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Seems like a POV-joke. On 15 January 2019 the Law on the Use of Languages came into effect, despite the refusal of President Gjorge Ivanov to sign off on it. The law was published in the government gazette after being signed by parliament Speaker Talat Xhaferi. In this way Albanian became a second official language in North Macedonia. The Albanian language until then could only be co-official in the areas where the Albanian minority represented at least 20% of the population per the 2008 Law on the Use of Languages spoken by at least 20% of the citizens in the units of the local self-government. The new law extended the official use of Albanian over the entire territory of the country. Under the new legislation, Macedonian continues to be the primary official language, while Albanian may be used now as a second one, including at a national level in official matters. The legislation stipulates also all public institutions in the country will provide Albanian translations in their everyday work. The fact that the constitutional court has been referred to and how and when it will rule on the matter is irrelevant to the current legislation, before the decision of the court, and even afterwards, if the court accepts that the law does not violate the constitution itself. ] (]) 17:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Your reply is just a copy-paste of text from ]. Anyway, per Article 7 of , only Macedonian is the official language. The constitutionality of the law mentioned in your copy-paste is pending. That being said, use of Albanian is definitely in more widespread use in reality following this law, whether or not it is constitutional. --] <sup>]</sup> 21:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::My replay is backed by reliable sources in the corresponding article. That above is only POV. ] (]) 12:11, 21 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::The constitutional court case is POV to point out? I was referring to the laziness of your reply, not the sourcing backing the text in the article. --] <sup>]</sup> 21:29, 21 September 2024 (UTC) |
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The Constitutional Court was referred to this issue by the ultra-left, pro-Russian, and even according to some, pro-fascist Levica Party back in 2019. Until now, the court was silent, but after the ultranationalists from DPMNE came to power, the court thought of opening a case. So the issue is not from yesterday and this legislation that has been in effect until now remains valid until the court pronounces.] (]) 03:57, 22 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:According to the Macedonian Constitution the official language is Macedonian. There, there was the new law of 5 January 2019 the Law on the Use of Languages, that makes Albanian co-official. However - is it a silly point to make? - I think Macedonian is not 'co-official' but simply 'official'. Also, Albanian is not co-official in Macedoniandefence, central police and monetary policy. Hence the supremacy in North Macedonia remains with the Macedonian language. |
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:All the languages listed as "Languages of Australia" are Australian Aboriginal languages, and English, the official language. To ], yes, and so is Macedonian, sometimes by the same person. Go figure. ''']]''' 11:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:So these points can be made in the article, no? ] (]) 19:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::Yes, Macedonian is official, while Albanian is co-official. ] (]) 19:43, 22 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Your attempt to justify the Law on the Use of Languages is not just misguided—it's an outright farce. The Constitutional Court’s involvement in this issue is riddled with controversies and lacks true legitimacy. It’s no secret that this court has shown favoritism toward nationalist agendas, undermining its credibility. |
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:::The insistence on treating Albanian as a co-official language flies in the face of our constitution, which unequivocally states that Macedonian is the sole official language. Until the court rules on this matter, the law is effectively null and void. Continuing to reference Albanian in this context is a dangerous precedent that threatens the very foundation of our national identity. |
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:::It's time to face the facts: Albanian should be removed as a co-official language until the court reaches a legitimate decision. Anything less is a disservice to the rule of law and an insult to the Macedonian people. ] (]) 11:45, 26 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I completely agree with this stance. The idea that Albanian should be treated as a co-official language without a proper Constitutional Court ruling is absolutely wrong. Our constitution is clear: '''Macedonian is the only official language''', and any attempts to bypass that with a flawed law should be challenged. |
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::::The court itself isn't biased toward nationalist forces as some claim—it's performing its duty to uphold the constitution. The law pushed through in 2019, without proper presidential approval and with the involvement of individuals like Talat Xhaferi, is deeply questionable. Until a legitimate, constitutional ruling is made, '''Albanian must be removed from any references as a co-official language'''. |
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::::This is about ensuring the rule of law, not bending to political convenience. Ethnicity should never override the clear legal framework that governs our country. ] (]) 11:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Your attempt to downplay the significance of the co-official status of Albanian is not just misleading; it’s a blatant oversimplification of a complex and critical issue. Yes, Macedonian is the sole official language according to our constitution, but the Law on the Use of Languages that was passed is not merely a footnote—it's a legal document that attempted to elevate Albanian to co-official status across the country. |
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:::::Claiming that Macedonian is simply “official” while Albanian holds a “co-official” designation implies that Albanian can be sidelined, which undermines the impact of that law and disregards the voices of significant segments of our population. You may argue that Albanian is not recognized in certain areas like defense or monetary policy, but that only highlights the inconsistency and contentiousness of this legislation, which is currently awaiting a constitutional verdict. |
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:::::This situation creates a precarious legal landscape where the implications of such laws could destabilize our national identity and legal system. The supremacy of Macedonian language should be reflected not just in theory but in practice. Until we have a definitive ruling from the Constitutional Court, the existence of Albanian as a co-official language is legally questionable and should be challenged vigorously. |
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:::::Your assertion that this can simply be brushed off as a "silly point" only reveals a lack of understanding of the broader implications for our society. This is not just about semantics; it’s about preserving the constitutional integrity of North Macedonia. ] (]) 11:52, 26 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:Your comments just further expose your own POV and inability to objectively evaluate the topic at hand (i.e., refusal to use 'VMRO-DPMNE' in comments, bringing up irrelevant ideological leanings of Levica, etc.). That the constitution only names Macedonian as official must be noted in the article. --] <sup>]</sup> 02:21, 27 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::First of all i'm sick of you, your entire response reeks of bad faith and an inability to engage in a constructive conversation. Resorting to cheap shots about my supposed "POV" only shows you're trying to avoid the real issue. Whether I mention VMRO-DPMNE or Levica is irrelevant to the fact that the constitution clearly names Macedonian as the only official language. That’s a legal fact, not an opinion, and your attempt to downplay it shows your own bias. |
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::As for the "law on languages," it is currently under review by the Constitutional Court. Until there is a final ruling, it's reckless and misleading to claim that Albanian has been definitively established as a co-official language. The law’s constitutionality is being questioned, and it would be premature for Misplaced Pages to recognize something that might soon be overturned. The objectivity you so self-righteously claim to uphold demands we respect the current legal framework, not indulge in wishful thinking. |
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::Instead of dodging the issue, I suggest you stick to the facts at hand: the constitution only recognizes Macedonian, and the court’s decision will determine whether that changes. Trying to manipulate language for political reasons violates Misplaced Pages's neutrality policy. So drop the baseless accusations and deal with the actual legal status of the languages in Macedonia. ] (]) 21:09, 30 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I expect a proper, respectful discussion moving forward, without resorting to propaganda or political games. '''The national identity and unity of Macedonia are not up for negotiation''', and it’s time for an honest, fact-based conversation. Stop dodging the issue and talk to me directly if you have any valid points to make. ] (]) 21:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::::AND stop dodging this topic - Еднаш збори со мене ко нормален човек ако сакаш можеме на македонски да збориме прекини да бегаш од темава. ] (]) 21:21, 30 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::The Constitutional Court is set to hold a constitutive session on December 11, 2024, regarding the legality of the 2019 Law on Languages. It is important to acknowledge that the outcomes of this session, as determined by the court, are binding and must be respected. This is a critical moment for upholding the rule of law and ensuring adherence to Macedonia's constitutional principles. ] (]) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 January 2025 == |
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::How is it OR? Australia is listed among the countries where Greek is spoken, though not with a separate entry like, say, the Ukraine. Going by your logic, that either means it isn't spoken in Australia, or that it isn't important enough to warrant a ]. <small>·<font color="black">]</font>·</small> 11:12, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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{{edit extended-protected|North Macedonia|answered=yes}} |
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::If we are going to be picky, then we should also mention Croatian, German, Russian, French, Italian etc. Why stop at Greek? ] (]) 11:10, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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I think the lasting date for the 2001 insurgency should be added to the infobox ] (]) 19:59, 2 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:{{not done for now}}:<!-- Template:EEp --> Where in the infobox? ] (]) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC) |
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== Other thing that should be added to the infobox == |
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:::Find a source, and go for it. <small>·<font color="black">]</font>·</small> 11:12, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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The name change from Macedonia to North Macedonia should also be added to the infobox. ] (]) 20:01, 2 January 2025 (UTC) |
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This "Greek language spoken in Macedonia" is a clear attempt to push a Greek Nationalistic Agenda with no valid arguments in the lines of the recent attempts to attribute to the ethnic '''Latin''' toungue ] population an '''unexpressed''' "(ancient) hellen" identity (similar to many other non-Greeks incorporated in the Ancient Hellen ethnicity that officialy covers 100% of Greece - keep in mind there is no ethnic census in Greece) |
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*With all the respect to "www.ethnologue.com" this kind of matters are primary evidenced by official Macedonian and International bodies, and there is no such evidence that confirms that the Greek language is spoken in Macedonia (as mother tongue or as a second language) in significant numbers. |
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*we have evidence that there is no "greek minority" in Republic of Macedonia, at least not a significant one so "A wide variety of languages are spoken in Macedonia, reflecting its '''ethnic''' diversity" cannot stand for the Greek language. |
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*the Greek language '''allong with the other 6.500 living languages''' in the world ''can'' be spoken by the Macedonian population as a foreign language, still this kind of information is obsolete for Misplaced Pages ] (]) 11:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Article 7 of the North Macedonian constitution says :
In the Republic of North Macedonia, the official language is the Macedonian language and its Cyrillic script. - Член 7
Во Република Северна Македонија службен јазик е македонскиот јазик и неговото кирилско писмо. Инквизитор771 (talk) 18:39, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
The Constitutional Court was referred to this issue by the ultra-left, pro-Russian, and even according to some, pro-fascist Levica Party back in 2019. Until now, the court was silent, but after the ultranationalists from DPMNE came to power, the court thought of opening a case. So the issue is not from yesterday and this legislation that has been in effect until now remains valid until the court pronounces.Jingiby (talk) 03:57, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
.svg){kind=small}
Not done for now: Where in the infobox? Ultraodan (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
