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	==Dzogchen in Nyingma and Bon==
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	In my view, a disambiguation page may be appropriate to distinguish between Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen traditions, or else further clarification in this page. There is definitely a range of opinion as to how similar or dissimilar the two are. Thoughts?
			{{WikiProject Buddhism\|importance=high}}
			{{WikiProject Philosophy\|importance=mid\|eastern=yes\|religion=yes}}
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			{{WikiProject Yoga\|importance=low}}
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			== Lead changes ==
	==What is the Tibetan title of the ]==
	What is the Tibetan title of the ]? Is it translated? ISBN?
	: ] isn't a specific tantric text. It is a class of tantra. Tantra, in the Nyingma tradition, is divided into nine vehicles or yanas. Maha Ati Tantra is the highest of these vehicles. --]
	----
	Actually, Maha Ati is not even a class of tantra (at least in the Nyingma system). This seems to be an invention of H.H. Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to meld '''MAHA'''mudra and '''ATI'''yoga (i.e. phyag rgya chen po and rdzogs pa chen po in Tibetan). Albill seems to be mistakenly thinking Mahayoga and Atiyoga are one in the same. The Nyingma school groups its tantras into 6, not 9, divisions. There are a total of nine yanas, or vehicles, in the Nyingma system, but only the last 6 are tantric. These are the sravakayana and pratyekabuddhayana (which are associated with the Hinayana), the bodhisattvayana (associated with sutra Mahayana), kriya, upa, and yoga tantra (the outer tantras), and maha, anu, and ati yoga (the inner tantras). As you can see here, Mahayoga (typically identified with creation/development stage meditation) and Atiyoga (identified with "signless" completion stage meditation) are totally distinct categories. They have their own textual traditions and lineage masters and are totally different in terms of practice.
	Hope this helps clarify the issue!

			This seems to be missing a refutation to appreciate the deletions intent. It can be restored. ] (]) 14:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
	== Why is this page marked NPOV? ==

			== Merger proposal ==
	I can't see anything in it that is particularly controversial, considering the article is explaining a religious tradition. The talk page doesn't seem to have anything in it to explain this NPOV tagging.

			I propose that ] be merged into ]/]. "Maha Ati" is merely a (recently-coined) synonym for Ati yoga / Dzogchen. ] (]) 14:39, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
	Dzogchen itself is controversial, of course.

			* '''Support''' ] -] 15:16, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
	BTW: there's a contradiction regarding the origins of Dzogchen. Was its source Padmasambhava? If so, how come Garab Dorje is expounding it? Garab Dorje was one of Padmasambhava's teachers. Anyway, according to my understanding, Dozgchen is supposed by its adherents to be a teaching of the Buddha. The lineage is rather odd, though, because it involves at least one teacher of implausible longevity. But then you tend to get that with tantric lineages.
			* '''Yes''' it happened here too in a stub without reference. ] (]) 02:07, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
			* '''Support'''. This seems good and useful. Yes. Best, ] (]) 22:07, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	--] 12:14, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
	:I (hesitantly) untagged it, because I eventually found the explanation for the NPOV tag in history; and it's supposedly been addressed, over a month ago. I'm a wikinewbie - let me know if this was wrong! It could still be improved, IMO; currently the only living Dzogchen teacher cited in the body is Sogyal Rimpoche, who has published prolifically, but isn't universally regarded as an unimpeachable authority. There are plenty of classical authorities that could be cited instead. Citing (under references) of books that are actually in print seems to me to be not only unobjectionable, but entirely appropriate.

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:--] 12:33, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

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			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 07:49, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

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			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 09:06, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

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			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 16:16, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

			== Could this material be useful here or on a related page? ==

			Hi Dzogchen editors,

			The material below currently exists on the ] page. It is hard to justify having this long historical overview only to conclude panpsychism is not a part of Dzogchen. However, as a matter of the history of Western study of Dzogchen, it is important knowledge that early translators had a false impression about Dzogchen teachings. Could it go on this page, as part of a "Historiography" section, perhaps? Or is there a related page where this would be useful? It seems a shame just to delete it.

			:: According to a common misunderstanding, in the Buddhist ] tradition {{Citation needed\|date=February 2011}}, particularly Dzogchen ] or "mind series" the principal text of which is the ], there is nothing which is non-sentient, i.e. everything is sentient. Moreover, two of the English scholars who opened the discourse of the ] literature of the ] Dzogchen tradition, ] & ] (1954, 2000: p. 10) specifically with their partial translation and commentary of the '']'' into the English language write of the "One Mind" (Tibetan: sems nyid gcig; Sanskrit: ekacittatva; ekacittata; where * denotes a possible Sanskrit back-formation) thus:

			:: {{quote\|The One Mind, as Reality, is the Heart which pulsates for ever, sending forth purified the blood-streams of existence, and taking them back again; the Great Breath, the Inscrutable ], the Eternally Unveiled Mystery of the Mysteries of Antiquity, the Goal of all Pilgrimages, the End of all Existence.<ref>Walter Yeeling Evans-Wentz, Carl Gustav Jung (1954, 2000). ''The Tibetan book of the great liberation, or, The method of realizing nirvāṇa through knowing the mind''. Oxford University Press US, 2000. {{ISBN\|0-19-513315-3}}, {{ISBN\|978-0-19-513315-8}}. Source: (accessed: Sunday March 7, 2010)</ref>}}

			:: It should be borne in mind, that Evans-Wentz never studied the Tibetan language and that the lama who did the main translation work for him was of the ] sect and is not known to have actually studied or practiced Dzogchen.

			:: According to the translation with commentary, "Self-Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness", by John Myrdhin Reynolds, the phrase, "It is the single nature of mind which encompasses all of Samsara and Nirvana," occurs only once in the text and it refers not to "some sort of ] hypostasis, a universal ''Nous,'' of which all individual minds are but fragments or appendages", but to the teaching that, "whether one finds oneself in the state of Samsara or in the state of Nirvana, it is the nature of the mind which reflects with awareness all experiences, no matter what may be their nature." This can be found in Appendix I, on pages 80–81. Reynolds elucidates further with the analogy of a mirror. To say that a single mirror can reflect ugliness or beauty, does not constitute an allegation that all ugliness and beauty is one single mirror.

			{{reflist-talk}}

			Let me know if this could be valuable. ] (]) 03:14, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

			:I can hardly follow what this text is about... ] -] 05:09, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

			:: Hi ], probably no good for this page then. Do you think it could be useful on the ] page, though? It is saying that when Evan-Wentz and Jung first translated the text, they misrepresented it as saying one great mind pervades the universe, whereas it said no such thing. That said, if the above is incomprehensible I'll just delete it from the ] article. ] (]) 16:34, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

			:::I don't know, I can't judge. It's too specialized... ] -] 18:41, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
			== "Gartak (martial art)" listed at ] ==
			]
			An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect ]. Please participate in ] if you wish to do so. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 21:34, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

			== Article too long ==

			There are sections that could stand alone as articles, rigpa, trekcho, togal, among others. ] (]) 13:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

			==Split proposal==
			The article is really too long and the practice section nested too deep. Logically ], currently a redirect to the section, would be the place to which to split the material. I'm also open to ], but I think the dab style is currently preferred. ] (]) 20:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

			I think the length is fine, only the "base, path, and fruit" is of considerable length, nonetheless, I've seen longer articles. ] (]) 13:03, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

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Lead changes

This seems to be missing a refutation to appreciate the deletions intent. It can be restored. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 14:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that Maha Ati be merged into Atiyoga/Dzogchen. "Maha Ati" is merely a (recently-coined) synonym for Ati yoga / Dzogchen. 109.156.203.132 (talk) 14:39, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Support Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:16, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
Yes it happened here too in a stub without reference. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 02:07, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Support. This seems good and useful. Yes. Best, AD64 (talk) 22:07, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

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Could this material be useful here or on a related page?

Hi Dzogchen editors,

The material below currently exists on the panpsychism page. It is hard to justify having this long historical overview only to conclude panpsychism is not a part of Dzogchen. However, as a matter of the history of Western study of Dzogchen, it is important knowledge that early translators had a false impression about Dzogchen teachings. Could it go on this page, as part of a "Historiography" section, perhaps? Or is there a related page where this would be useful? It seems a shame just to delete it.

According to a common misunderstanding, in the Buddhist Dzogchen tradition , particularly Dzogchen Semde or "mind series" the principal text of which is the Kulayarāja Tantra, there is nothing which is non-sentient, i.e. everything is sentient. Moreover, two of the English scholars who opened the discourse of the Bardo literature of the Nyingma Dzogchen tradition, Evans-Wentz & Jung (1954, 2000: p. 10) specifically with their partial translation and commentary of the Bardo Thodol into the English language write of the "One Mind" (Tibetan: sems nyid gcig; Sanskrit: *ekacittatva; *ekacittata; where * denotes a possible Sanskrit back-formation) thus:

The One Mind, as Reality, is the Heart which pulsates for ever, sending forth purified the blood-streams of existence, and taking them back again; the Great Breath, the Inscrutable Brahman, the Eternally Unveiled Mystery of the Mysteries of Antiquity, the Goal of all Pilgrimages, the End of all Existence.

It should be borne in mind, that Evans-Wentz never studied the Tibetan language and that the lama who did the main translation work for him was of the Gelukpa sect and is not known to have actually studied or practiced Dzogchen.

According to the translation with commentary, "Self-Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness", by John Myrdhin Reynolds, the phrase, "It is the single nature of mind which encompasses all of Samsara and Nirvana," occurs only once in the text and it refers not to "some sort of Neo-Platonic hypostasis, a universal Nous, of which all individual minds are but fragments or appendages", but to the teaching that, "whether one finds oneself in the state of Samsara or in the state of Nirvana, it is the nature of the mind which reflects with awareness all experiences, no matter what may be their nature." This can be found in Appendix I, on pages 80–81. Reynolds elucidates further with the analogy of a mirror. To say that a single mirror can reflect ugliness or beauty, does not constitute an allegation that all ugliness and beauty is one single mirror.

References

Walter Yeeling Evans-Wentz, Carl Gustav Jung (1954, 2000). The Tibetan book of the great liberation, or, The method of realizing nirvāṇa through knowing the mind. Oxford University Press US, 2000. ISBN 0-19-513315-3, ISBN 978-0-19-513315-8. Source: (accessed: Sunday March 7, 2010)

Let me know if this could be valuable. Gazelle55 (talk) 03:14, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

I can hardly follow what this text is about... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:09, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Joshua Jonathan, probably no good for this page then. Do you think it could be useful on the Kulayarāja Tantra page, though? It is saying that when Evan-Wentz and Jung first translated the text, they misrepresented it as saying one great mind pervades the universe, whereas it said no such thing. That said, if the above is incomprehensible I'll just delete it from the panpsychism article. Gazelle55 (talk) 16:34, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't know, I can't judge. It's too specialized... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:41, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

"Gartak (martial art)" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Gartak (martial art). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. _signed,Rosguill 21:34, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Article too long

There are sections that could stand alone as articles, rigpa, trekcho, togal, among others. Skyerise (talk) 13:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Split proposal

The article is really too long and the practice section nested too deep. Logically Practice (Dzogchen), currently a redirect to the section, would be the place to which to split the material. I'm also open to Practice in Dzogchen, but I think the dab style is currently preferred. Skyerise (talk) 20:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I think the length is fine, only the "base, path, and fruit" is of considerable length, nonetheless, I've seen longer articles. 178.120.59.13 (talk) 13:03, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

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