| Revision as of 01:28, 5 November 2005 editRobchurch (talk | contribs)6,201 edits Your edits to St Volodymyr's Cathedral← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 10:55, 4 January 2023 edit undoMalnadachBot (talk | contribs)11,637,095 editsm Fixed Lint errors. (Task 12)Tag: AWB | ||
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| == ] == | |||
| Andrew, you have my sincere gratitude for doing so much in recent days to protect the ] article from malicious vandals. The ] came to my attention after I began researching the ] during the mid-1800s. The events that occurring during both are strikingly similiar as well as equally depressing, though vital aspects of the history of both peoples. | |||
| I will continue to improve ] as time permits, and hope to see more of your presence there, despite the opinions of some admins who have recently chosen to adhere to rules rather than good sense in judging the events that led to your need to revert the article back to factual content. You are fighting a good fight. Again, thank you for helping Misplaced Pages provide fact-based data whilst faced with opposition from self-important rule-mongers. | |||
| == blocked for posting Vira Sulyma's article about ]== | |||
| → ] ] ] 10:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| I have blocked you for 24 hours for refusing to follow copyright guidelines and for violation of ] <small>] <sup>] | ] | ]</sup> </small> ----- 06:15, 22 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :Pádraic, thanks for a kind note. I would like to see more of your contributions to Ukraine-related articles, which right now mostly lack quality and independent views.--] 19:45, 25 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :I am following copyright guidelines as described for instance here: | |||
| :"Note that speedy deletion applies only to articles, that is text; and '''only when the source is a commercial content provider, that is someone engaged in directly making money off the content'''. Note: In general, copyright exists automatically, upon publication: '''an author does not need to apply for or even claim copyright for a copyright to exist'''. Only an explicit statement that the material is public domain or available under the GFDL makes material useable, unless it is inherently free of copyright due to its age or source." | |||
| ::Andrew -- I respect the effort you put into the Holodomor article. At the same time I think you would really do yourself, the article, and some people who are actually sympathetic to your approach a favour by being less offensive sometimes. Your insistence on the topic has made me learn something new, however, such as the definition of genocide including attempts not only to eliminate an ethnic group as a whole, but also 'only' in part. What I think SHOULD be made clear in the article that the Holodomor was at least in part a sociocide, targetted at a social class -- to limit it to genocide would, in my opinion, fail to draw attention to the unique nature of the Soviet regime in this regard. Maybe something can be more than one thing? Do you think it would be historically correct to classify the Holodomor as both a genocide and a sociocide? I think this may be a pretty good reflection of the facts. After all, the official policy of the Soviets was sociocidal, based on Marxist-Leninist ideology. Furthermore, the destruction of those years was not limited to the Ukrainians -- even though they may have been hit the hardest --, but also included the elimination of the independent herder of Kazakhstan. | |||
| :The article has been copied from a free web site with the consent of the author. Please explain what this violates. Also, protecting this text from simple deletion on a bogus excuse could not be considered a violation of 3RR since it states "The three revert rule is not generally considered to apply to reversions of simple vandalism by users who are waiting for a sysop to block the IP, of course."--] 08:55, 22 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Again, I respect your intentions, though I think it would be much more productive if you were a little more agreeable at times:) | |||
| ::Please re-read the above, which says ''an explicit statement that the material is public domain or available under the GFDL'' is required, plus you were blocked for reverting more than 3 times in a 24 hour period. WP is built by consensus, please follow the copyright rules and don't try to edit by attrition (it doesn't work). ] 18:28, 22 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's nice to see that there are more people out there who are as offended as I am by the Soviet apologists. | |||
| :::The material is available due to its source. The explanation of an appropriate source is mentioned two sentences above. The copyright of the article belongs to the author and she has agreed to publish it. It's not clear why Misplaced Pages has to bend its own rules to allow frivolous deletions of valuable articles by the people who already attacked multiple Ukrainian related articles in the past. The Ukrainian language page has been re-written by Irpen at least a hundred times to make it look more like another Russian language page. Now he or she comes here and deletes the text about the founder of modern Ukrainian literature. If the author wants her article from a free web site to be in Misplaced Pages, why not let her? This is at least arguable. Banning people for fighting vandalism is discouraging and unfair.--] 21:40, 22 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Keep it up. ] 10:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC) | |||
| The material you plagiarized from is available from the link I added to the article and everyone can read it at the site of the copyright owner. | |||
| ==]== | |||
| :The material has not been plagiarized. It's an offending statement. The material has be been published with the consent of the author, listing the author.--] 00:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| I agree with your comments on ]. let me know when you need my help. Mikka is now blocked for 3RR to Anti-Romanian page. ] ] 20:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC) | |||
| WUmag doesn't state it is a free license and WUmag, not the author, owns the copyright. | |||
| :Thanks.--] 04:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::You're welcome. ] ] 07:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Warning == | |||
| :It's a web site that provides free content. The Misplaced Pages policy reads '''an author does not need to apply for or even claim copyright for a copyright to exist'''. Please explain, why you decided that the article is fully owned by the free web site of WUmag and not the author.--] 00:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Please do not revert the ] article again. ] is a limit, not an entitlement - you can be blocked for disruption for a ''single'' revert if you know in advance that it is contentious. I am sure that what you want to add is well-sourced, but the tone is not as neutral as the tone of Irpen's last version. Please work from that basis and try to avoid advocacy. Thanks. ] 16:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| If you absolutely insist that the link to the original is worse than your copy, try retelling this article in your own words. All you have to do is to write something yourself, even based on the sources cited. Copy'n'paste would not go. Well, from some sites copy'n'paste is allowed. MaidanUA explicitly states it is GFDL. Copy and paste from there isn't a problem. Use it as a source istead of a tool to mobilize people to do things without thinking. --] 22:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :The only problem with this statement, again, is its arbitrariness. Why should anyone re-tell what has already been said and approved for Misplaced Pages by its owner? Why is your version of ownership of the copyright is better than author's? What are the exact documents or rules that you use to support this?--] 00:45, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Image Tagging ]== | |||
| ::I could only repeat that whatever is published,(not just posted but published in the media), is owned not by the author but by publication. | |||
| {| align="CENTER" style="background-color:#FFFFFF; border:8px solid #FF0000; padding:5px;" | |||
| :::And I could only ask you again, where did you get this information from?--] 04:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| |- | |||
| |] | |||
| | {{center|{{big|This media may be '''deleted'''.}}}} | |||
| |} | |||
| Thanks for uploading ''']'''. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the ] status is unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then there needs to be an argument why we have the right to use the media on Misplaced Pages (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then it needs to be specified where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page. | |||
| ::WUmag holds the copyright for this, not the author. | |||
| If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{tl|GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the ]. If you believe the media meets the criteria at ], use a tag such as {{tlp|Non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at ]. See ] for the full list of copyright tags that you can use. | |||
| :::In this case it's the author. This is a default assumption mentioned by the Misplaced Pages policy. Please provide any proof of the opposite.--] 04:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| If you have uploaded other media, consider checking that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "]" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on ]. If you have any questions please ask them at the ]. Thank you. ] 21:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Second, he cannot insist that it is published with reference to his name. | |||
| ==Image copyright problem with Image:Holodomor2.jpg== | |||
| Thanks for uploading ]. The image has been identified as not specifying the copyright status of the image, which is required by Misplaced Pages's policy on images. If you don't indicate the copyright status of the image on the image's description page, using an appropriate ], it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided copyright information for them as well. | |||
| For more information on using images, see the following pages: | |||
| :::It's she - Vira Sulyma. And she would not object to publish it even without a reference.--] 04:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| *] | |||
| *] | |||
| This is an automated notice by ]. For assistance on the image use policy, see ]. 07:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Misplaced Pages is published under GFDL which is displayed vividly below the edit window. Read GFDL yourself. And there is no need to copy and paste something anyway, since the link I placed does just that. | |||
| :::The link does not work now. This is one of the main reason the article was brought over to Misplaced Pages.--] 04:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Non-free use disputed for Image:Holodomor2.jpg== | |||
| ::However, even without link, we did not have the license to have this text in Misplaced Pages. You may want to look at what's being done now at MaidanUA thread and comment there too. --] 00:56, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| {| align="center" style="background-color: white; border:8px solid red; padding:5px; text-align: center; font-size: larger;" | |||
| :::Yes, I did have a license. It's called ].--] 04:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| |] | |||
| |This file may be '''deleted'''. | |||
| |} | |||
| Thanks for uploading ''']'''. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read carefully the instructions at ] and then go to ] and clarify why you think the image qualifies. Using one of the templates at ] is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page. | |||
| If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our ]. If you have any questions please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:No fair --> | |||
| From the author or from WUmag? It is indeed a good article, totally neutral and informative. If it is indeed released, there are no objections to its content now. --] 04:50, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Move to Kyiv == | ||
| Dear Andrew Alexander, I could not possibly care less about Russian vs Ukrainian names on Misplaced Pages. However, I do care about the fact that the names of the archaeology articles should correspond to current terminology. Please, read ''']'''.--] 10:30, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| : Dear ], as you probably remamber, I was also doing similar changes. It would be nice if you provide any reference concerning that "Chernyakhov" is indeed the current terminology. What I see on the page, even good experts in the field misspell it as "Chernyakovo", which has nothing to do both with Ukrainian and Russian spellings. It looks like any spelling is not common yet and the best choice is just to stick at the correct name of the village. Regards, --] 10:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have seen several spelling versions of the name. However, all of them are transliterations of the Russian name, and I so chose the standard transliteration of cyrillic. It may be hard for you to accept, but the Russian form of the name is the conventional name used for this culture, and so it is the form that will be used.--] 10:54, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Still, it would be nice to provide any referencies.--] 11:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Some use also Cherniakhiv.--] 11:10, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::It may be reasonable to continue the discussion at the corresponding talk page?--] 11:16, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The ''English language'' source you cited is ''Ukrainian''. At the moment, I am busy IRL, but I'll get back to you later tonight, with non-Ukrainian sources. Best,--] 13:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::The source I cited is Canadian, in fact. There are indded Ukrainian English-language sources, but I did not cite them. See you. --] 15:14, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :Dear Wiglaf, thanks for your reply. I never thought that correcting to the right spelling of a geographical name could be considered propaganda. In fact I tried to reduce the amount of bias by providing both names. Chernyakhiv has not been renamed, it always was Cherniakhiv, at least all the old people in and around that village call it that name. It is how the name is now reading on the international maps. However, I don't want to be confrontational about it either. Simply thought that calling it solely a Russian name used by the Soviet propaganda machine seemed not in line with Misplaced Pages policies because of ''']'''. Best regards --] 17:42, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Please, see my answer below.--] 19:03, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Hello, | |||
| == Chernyakhiv culture == | |||
| I also tried to move the article according to the correct name of the site in Ukraine, but I've got the responce that "Chernyakhov culture" is the common English name for the term. I hardly believe it: in fact, some authors (even those considered to be very good experts in the field) misspell it even as "chernyakovo culture". Our opponents do not provide any refference confirming that "Chernyakhov culture" is widelly used. On the other hand, it would be nice if we could provide a reference to a map or a book using "Chernyakhiv". Otherewise we'll likely defeat. Regards, --] 10:37, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :], I don't think that the translated ''Encyclopedia of Ukraine'' counts as an authority of what is the most conventional name in the English language. And for both of you I provide a few references. Here is a Swedish book using the name: Kaliff, Anders: Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD. 2001. Here are a few sites mentioning the culture: ,, , , . As you can see, there is no problem finding this name on the Internet, in this form. Just because it is the conventional name. If you feel uncomfortable with the culture having a Russian form, I am deeply sorry, but that is not what the naming is about. A Misplaced Pages article is to have the most conventional name in the English language for the simple reason that it is an encyclopedia.--] 19:01, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Wiglaf, the name of the culture is the name of the village. In fact almost any reference to that culture mentions the village in Ukraine. The village name in English is Chernyakhiv. It is how the culture is now called and will continuted to be called in Ukraine as well as in some sources outside of Ukraine. Providing two names - old Soviet one and new Ukrainian on that Misplaced Pages page seems least biased. I hope for your fair and balanced review of that subject. Thanks --] 19:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::You are misunderstanding the derivational relationship between the village name and the culture. Yes, the culture was named after the village, but the name of the culture now exists in the English language independently of the village from which it took its name. This is English language Misplaced Pages, where we use conventional English names where possible. The Ukrainian name is ''only'' relevant as ].--] 19:47, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Dear Wiglaf, sorry if it sounded like I would like to change the name of the culture. I only wanted to bring to your attention the fact that historians in Ukraine (and some outside) now call that culture the actual name of the village it was found at. To avoid confusion and possible bias there was a suggestion to list both names. We need to acknowledge the fact that the culture belongs to the history of Ukraine. It is just as much a national treasure as it is an international history item. I know Ukrainians will not agree to call their treasure a misplaced Russian name. The culture artifacts are stored in Ukrainian museums and researched by Ukrainian archeologists. ] 20:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Now I see, the spelling "Chernyakhov" is indded more common in the academic community that other ones. --] 19:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| I am trying to change the name of the page Kiev to Kyiv. Looking through the archives, I saw that you had contributed to a similar discussion in the past. | |||
| == Cossacks == | |||
| Андрію, якщо маєте час, візьміть, будь-ласка, на спостереження статтю про ]. Там один юзер на ім"я Kuban Kazak намагається замінити історичні факти попсовими легендами. Я вже зробив кілька відкатів. Тому потрібно, щоб ще хтось підключився.--] 20:34, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| The current discussion is happening at: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Kiev/naming | |||
| ok--] 21:38, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Please let us know what you think. | |||
| P.S. Стосовно Черняхівської культури, то мені здається, що не варто продовжувати. Наукова спільнота дійсно поки-що частіше використовує "Chernyakhov". Просто раніше не було ніяких підтверджень, але тепер вони є. Єдине, чого варто добитись, це щоб у статті (не в заголовку а в тексті) було вказано обидві назви, ну і згадка про село Черняхів, звичайно. Більшого ми на нинішньому етапі все-одно не досягнемо, тільки час потратимо.--] 20:39, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks, | |||
| Andriy, this is not a question of my personal preference. It is understandable that a certain name could become spread due to the USSR and Russian bias. However, it's a fact that an alternative name is used by historians in and outside Ukraine. We should not "trade" biases and propaganda. Chernyakhiv culture belongs to Ukraine and Ukraine has a right to call it such. Listing both names in the page header is fair and unbiased.--] 21:38, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ] 03:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :: I agree with you completelly. But we have to respect the policies and principles of Misplaced Pages. According to them, Misplaced Pages is not an instrument to establish the correct name. It has to use the one, which is accepted by the scientific community (or by English speaking people in general), even it is wrong. | |||
| == "Ukrainian Genocide" listed at ] == | |||
| :: In other words, Misplaced Pages is just a "termometer" thet shows the "temperature" of the corresponding scientific community. If the "termometer" is wrong, we have to fix it. (This is the case of ] or ], for instance). But if the "temperature" is wrong, there is no reason to fix the "termometer". One can try to change the opinion of the scientific comunity, if one has a connection to it, or has to wait untill other people make it. There is no other way, in my opinion. Anyway, there is enough work outside Cherniakhiv culture. Let's switch to other things. --] 21:57, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ] | |||
| An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect ] and has thus listed it ]. This discussion will occur at ] until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> <span style="font-family:Calibri; font-weight:bold;">] ]</span> 13:09, 28 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Of course. But a large portion of the scientific community is now using an alternative name. Thus it's time to fix the "thermometer". This discussion just shows, Andriy, how fair and balanced your view is. Thanks --] 22:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Unfortunatelly, I did not fine many references using "Cherniakhiv". Only Canadian Encyclopedia of Ukraine and several Ukrainian English-Language internet sites. There was a reason for a discussion, before Wiglaf has shown his references. But now we see that he was right. "Chernyakhov" is indeed more common than "Cherniakhiv". Still, I added "Cherniakhiv" to the first line of the article.--] 22:25, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Your edits to ] == | |||
| {{lieuofblock|admin=] <sup>'']''</sup>}} | |||
| Please be aware that I'm not the sort of person who allows people to get away with violating ] based on technicalities; an important part of our policies is the spirit in which they're made. | |||
| I would strongly advise you to stop editing that article and to start talking about your changes on the talk page; explain to the others: | |||
| *Why you think your changes are correct | |||
| **] if possible | |||
| **Explain how they conform to a ] | |||
| *Why their edits are not correct | |||
| I won't be blocking this time under 3RR, although I ''should'' - please take the advice above. You will find that you earn the respect of many of us by not revert-warring. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 01:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 10:55, 4 January 2023
Holodomor
Andrew, you have my sincere gratitude for doing so much in recent days to protect the Holodomor article from malicious vandals. The Ukrainian famine came to my attention after I began researching the Irish potato famine during the mid-1800s. The events that occurring during both are strikingly similiar as well as equally depressing, though vital aspects of the history of both peoples.
I will continue to improve Holodomor as time permits, and hope to see more of your presence there, despite the opinions of some admins who have recently chosen to adhere to rules rather than good sense in judging the events that led to your need to revert the article back to factual content. You are fighting a good fight. Again, thank you for helping Misplaced Pages provide fact-based data whilst faced with opposition from self-important rule-mongers.
→ P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 10:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
- Pádraic, thanks for a kind note. I would like to see more of your contributions to Ukraine-related articles, which right now mostly lack quality and independent views.--Andrew Alexander 19:45, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
- Andrew -- I respect the effort you put into the Holodomor article. At the same time I think you would really do yourself, the article, and some people who are actually sympathetic to your approach a favour by being less offensive sometimes. Your insistence on the topic has made me learn something new, however, such as the definition of genocide including attempts not only to eliminate an ethnic group as a whole, but also 'only' in part. What I think SHOULD be made clear in the article that the Holodomor was at least in part a sociocide, targetted at a social class -- to limit it to genocide would, in my opinion, fail to draw attention to the unique nature of the Soviet regime in this regard. Maybe something can be more than one thing? Do you think it would be historically correct to classify the Holodomor as both a genocide and a sociocide? I think this may be a pretty good reflection of the facts. After all, the official policy of the Soviets was sociocidal, based on Marxist-Leninist ideology. Furthermore, the destruction of those years was not limited to the Ukrainians -- even though they may have been hit the hardest --, but also included the elimination of the independent herder of Kazakhstan.
- Again, I respect your intentions, though I think it would be much more productive if you were a little more agreeable at times:)
- It's nice to see that there are more people out there who are as offended as I am by the Soviet apologists.
- Keep it up. Dietwald 10:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Stalin
I agree with your comments on Stalin. let me know when you need my help. Mikka is now blocked for 3RR to Anti-Romanian page. Bonaparte talk 20:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks.--Andrew Alexander 04:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- You're welcome. Bonaparte talk 07:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Warning
Please do not revert the Holodomor article again. WP:3RR is a limit, not an entitlement - you can be blocked for disruption for a single revert if you know in advance that it is contentious. I am sure that what you want to add is well-sourced, but the tone is not as neutral as the tone of Irpen's last version. Please work from that basis and try to avoid advocacy. Thanks. Just zis Guy you know? 16:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Image Tagging Image:Holodomor4.jpg
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Image copyright problem with Image:Holodomor2.jpg
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Non-free use disputed for Image:Holodomor2.jpg
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Move to Kyiv
Hello,
I am trying to change the name of the page Kiev to Kyiv. Looking through the archives, I saw that you had contributed to a similar discussion in the past.
The current discussion is happening at: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Kiev/naming
Please let us know what you think.
Thanks,
Horlo 03:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
"Ukrainian Genocide" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Ukrainian Genocide and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 28#Ukrainian Genocide until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Star Mississippi 13:09, 28 April 2022 (UTC)