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{{Misplaced Pages talk:Ignore_all_rules/header}} {{Policy talk}}
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== Legal Concerns regarding how the policy is laid out ==
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*'''Note to admins considering protection''': Please look through the protection log and the users leading up to the last 6 page protections. You may find a pattern that leads you to consider blocking to be less harmful to the project than another page protection of a core policy.
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__TOC__

== Singular "rule" vs plural "rules" ==

The article text says, "If a ] prevents you from improving or maintaining ], '''ignore it'''." but the associated sound file says "If the ''rules'' prevent you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages's quality, ignore ''them''.". Shouldn't we be consistant? ] (]) 17:01, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

:Yes, the audio version is outdated and should be rerecorded. —] 19:06, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

== i just wanted to say ==

i like how short this article is for how awesome it is

that is all ] (]) 23:54, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

:It's a powerful statement that I interpret as "help the site first, worry about (stepping over) rules later". --] ''']''' ] 00:50, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

== Demotion to guideline ==

I think that this page should only be a guideline, and NOT policy. Who's with me? ] ] 23:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:This is the policy that set me free and convinced me that I could be productive here. It has a Zen-like simplicity that is typically hard to interpret until you finally "get it" - then it is utter simplicity. Misinterpretation of the policy sometimes causes problems, not the policy itself. And it is .
:For those reasons, count me out. ] (]) 23:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

::It is not just a policy, it is the most important policy. I think it should be policy. Past discussions on this subject have supported it remaining policy too. ] 01:15, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

== Brevity. ==

This policy page is too short. Surely it must be longer - examples, for example? I only understand it from seing someone paraphrase it to - ''Use common sense.''
Also, can anyone see a particular point in time where this can come into play? That would be a useful addition. This article needs expanding. --] (]) 17:49, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
:Well, if you want long, take a walk back through this talk page and its archives :) You will find lengthy discussion on why exactly this policy is best kept to its stripped-down 12-word essential. Basically, if we include an example saying "this is where you would ignore all rules", someone will take the example as meaning "in this case, I should always ignore rules", which is not true. To aid in your understanding though, you can have a look at the linked essays, ] and ].
:As for a point in time where IAR comes into play, when your own understanding tells you it's time, it's time. Until then, watch how other people interpret the policy and how successful they are at doing so. ] (]) 01:07, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


::WIARM would produce that problem, but UIAR would not; it lays out the principles and the working methods of IAR instead of approaching it as a "laundry list".--] (]) 02:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC) I am '''not''' a lawyer, but there are Misplaced Pages policies with legal considerations. These rules are firmer than the regular policies. There might be needed clarifications. Thank you - ] - ] 20:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)


:Remember that we only apply this policy in situations where a policy/rule is preventing us from ''improving'' an article. A edit that breaks a law would not be an ''improvement'', and so IAR would not apply. ] (]) 21:12, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
::: Agreed. I don't see any reason for maintaining WIAR as a separate page from IAR at this point, especially considering that almost any first-time reader of IAR is going to need to read WIAR before they go off ]. The nutshell summary is fine, but reducing the ''whole article'' to that summary seems to be a rather poor compromise. ] - ] 11:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
::Also, wouldn't, "Crimes are not permitted on Misplaced Pages." apply to all articles, policies, guidelines, and so on? I can't think of a way to note this that wouldn't be superfluous. ] (]) 00:11, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
::::Um... "''especially considering that almost any first-time reader of IAR is going to need to read WIAR before they go off ].''" Where are you finding such first-time readers? People who read IAR and then go off and so something stupid on account of it are in a vanishingly small minority - I'm not sure I've ever seen such a thing happen. Can you cite any example based on experience of people's misunderstanding of this page, showing that any harm has actually been caused by it? -]<sup>(])</sup>
:Mention an exception about the License, Disclaimer etc. My idea? ] (]) 00:42, 27 August 2024 (UTC)


== Prevent or hinder ==
I like how it is. People seem to get it well enough and if they don't we will just hit the magic revert button. ] 23:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


Firmly believe that NEW ver. better reflects the intent of IAR. ] (]) 07:19, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
== Related link ==
:I don't see why. I can sort of see an argument for "hinders" instead of "prevents", because of the slightly different meaning. However my understanding about the consensus for this page is that we want the English, and the logic, very simple. I don't think anyone wants this page to be used for subtle legalistic arguments about relative inconveniences. Switching "improving or maintaining" to "bettering" means you remove "maintaining", which is however vitally important. You would also once again switch to more unusual wording. I prefer plain everyday English wherever possible.--] (]) 08:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
::Adding "your ability" would also empower the more novice editors, and who knows, maybe the veterans as well.
::Based on your comments, I would leave it at this:


::* If a rule hinders you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, '''ignore it'''.
I don't know if this is appropriate for the policy page, but explains nicely the reason why IAR is important.--] (]) 19:57, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
:I agree! This is an excellent talk. --] (]) 00:27, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
::Websites that start playing sounds when loaded are really annoying. ] 00:29, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
:::Very. ] (]) 20:21, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


::What do you think? @]
== Change ==
:::
::] (]) 08:49, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
::::I don't think adding "your ability to" is a good idea either, based on the same reasoning I mentioned above about keeping the English and the logic simple. --] (]) 09:02, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::I agree. With just one word different, it shouldn't cause any problems ] (]) 09:09, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::I don't think its better that way. Hinder is less clear than prevent.--] (]) 10:19, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I think that's the point... It relies on community oversight and consensus to manage potential misuse. ] (]) 00:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
:I agree with Andrew. 'Hinder' and 'better' (as a verb) are relatively uncommon words and the simplicity of this policy is its strength. I'm also not sure that the intention behind switching 'prevents' to 'hinders' is correct. IAR is a safety valve for bad rules or bad applications of rules. Rules like ], ] or ] make it more ''difficult'' to improve the encyclopaedia without preventing it, for good reason, so they shouldn't be ignored for that alone. &ndash;&#8239;]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 11:24, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
::The intent of IAR is to allow editors the flexibility to improve Misplaced Pages even when rules might pose obstacles. It is not meant to encourage ''']''' for important policies.
::If a rule hinders but doesn't completely prevent improvement, editors can assess the situation to determine if ignoring the rule is justifiable. ] (]) 23:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
:::It also empowers editors to improve Misplaced Pages effectively, even when faced with hindrances, while still adhering to ''fundamental policies and ethical standards'' (see also ]) ] (]) 23:09, 6 June 2024 (UTC)


Trying to cover all of those nuances would turn it into a big complicated page, the opposite of what has been accepted and wanted. . And those are already taken care of by how this policy operates, and interacts with the fuzzy Misplaced Pages ecosystem. It currently has the strong, brief, simple widely accepted language. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 14:50, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
I changed the rule to:
:I agree with Andrew, Joe, and North. The policy is simple and direct. It serves its intended purpose as written. I don't think the proposed rewrite is an improvement. ]&nbsp;] 23:15, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
::Agreed. The language on this page seems set in stone (and maybe will be, on a statue or two). ] (]) 00:43, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
:::Is that a good argument? ] (]) 23:13, 19 June 2024 (UTC)


: If a ] prevents you from improving or maintaining ], '''ignore it''' as common sense dictates.


== Shu ha ri ==
from its previous wording:


Seems like folks missed the link with ]. ''( "follow the rules, break the rules, transcend the rules" )''
: If a ] prevents you from improving or maintaining ], '''ignore it'''.


I figured surely it must have been discussed at least, but I couldn't find mention in the archives so quickly.
in order to emphasize the fact that IAR should be interpreted in the light of common sense. There might be some resistance to this change, though, and I personally don't have any investment in whichever wording is adopted. Does anybody have any thoughts or comments on this? – ] 07:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


--] (]) 20:13, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
:Common sense is sense that other people commonly share with you. If the sense was common there would be no need to ignore the rule, people would agree. Sometimes it is sense that you have that is not common that shows the need to break the rule. Common sense is not a requirement, only that the action be improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages. I like the spirit of the addition, but I think IAR goes beyond common sense. ] 14:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


:Not sure that it is really connected… but… whatever. ] (]) 18:46, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
:: I think I follow your logic. The policy could do with a little clarification, but I agree with you that "common sense" is perhaps not the best possible phrase. – ] 04:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


== or not ==
:::Long discussion has pretty much always ended up just keeping the canonical twelve words though. The danger is that any additions to this actual policy page intended to clarify it will lead editors to interpret the policy by the strict wording, which is not the intent. At least IMO, it's deliberately intended to be vague. It's an exhortation to do what you think is right, the community will tell you right smartly when you're wrong - but it's not meant to be restrictive. Common sense is among the several linked essays which attempt to provide some understanding of what IAR means, but none of them qualify (''pace'' FG) for inclusion in the policy itself. You would have to choose very carefully any proposed change of wording. ] (]) 04:50, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


::::Hullo! ;-) --] (]) 18:23, 7 March 2009 (UTC) can this be used to violate the three reverts edit warring rule ] (]) 01:08, 29 November 2024 (UTC)


:The full article reads -
== Flag as historical ==
:: If a ] prevents you from improving or maintaining ], '''ignore it'''.
{{tl|historical}}
:Can you provide an example where violating the three-revert rule would improve or maintain Misplaced Pages? - ] (]) 01:32, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
I propose this "policy" be flagged thusly. Discuss. -]] 22:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
::Good faith reverts to remove vandalism is one example (however, since this is an exception to 3RR that is spelled out in that guideline, I suppose it isn’t a “violation”). ] (]) 02:21, 29 November 2024 (UTC)


== Does this rule apply? ==
*'''Strong Oppose''' one of the founding policies of wikipedia. The policy is still very much in active use today, so historical doesn't really apply. —] (]) 22:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
:* It's not really a "policy" though is it? If it was, it would sort of claim to trump NPOV, which is ] be a fundamental concept, or ], which some people might like a lot. IAR is more of an essay, rather than a policy. -]] 02:23, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
*'''Hahaha''' + '''Oppose''' - a proposal with no rationale? Puh-leeze. This policy is active and relevant. ] (]) 22:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
:* OK, fair enough. I'll ask that my response to n12 above be taken as a kind of "rationale." I had thought the reasons would be obvious, but I will of course answer any comments you can think of. -]] 02:23, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


I was going to add to an article from the corresponding article on the Spanish WP, but the Spanish article only cited two sources throughout. I felt that I shouldn't translate any information over to the English article because of lack of citations. Should I have just added the info? The article in question: ]. ] (]) 04:55, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:It is a policy, it has been since the beginning, it is the policy that prevents the other policies from bogging us down. Something does not need to trump NPOV to be a policy. It is policy because it represents our best practices. ] 02:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
:This isn't the right venue for your question.....the article talk page would be the best spot. But, as a quick note, there's a rule against adding un-sourc'''able''' material, there isn' a categorical rule agains adding unsourc'''ed''' material. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 22:22, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
:Oh and '''Oppose'''. Throwing away one of our most important safety valves is not a good idea. ] 02:40, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
:@] In the future, general purpose questions tend to get pretty good answers on ] and ]. I also agree with ] that ] is a better place to discuss this. {{pb}}Regarding translating un-cited material, people do that a lot and really it just depends on the article and the content. In this case, I see hard facts in the geography section that are verifiable even though they are not cited. Citations would improve that content, but it likely meets ] without them. Compare it to a section like ] where the citations are absent, but it's all hard facts that can be checked. {{pb}}Further down I see things like, "{{tq|Si por algo se caracteriza el pueblo de Herrera es por las infraestructuras deportivas (más abajo detalladas) y por la amplia participación ciudadana en el deporte y la cantidad de eventos que se realizan la categoría que poseen.}}" which probably needs a citation and in-text attribution (who says this characterizes the town?). Good luck, ] (]) 04:07, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

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Legal Concerns regarding how the policy is laid out

I am not a lawyer, but there are Misplaced Pages policies with legal considerations. These rules are firmer than the regular policies. There might be needed clarifications. Thank you - Writehydra - talk page 20:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Remember that we only apply this policy in situations where a policy/rule is preventing us from improving an article. A edit that breaks a law would not be an improvement, and so IAR would not apply. Blueboar (talk) 21:12, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Also, wouldn't, "Crimes are not permitted on Misplaced Pages." apply to all articles, policies, guidelines, and so on? I can't think of a way to note this that wouldn't be superfluous. Rjj (talk) 00:11, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Mention an exception about the License, Disclaimer etc. My idea? Luhanopi (talk) 00:42, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Prevent or hinder

Firmly believe that NEW ver. better reflects the intent of IAR. JLCop (talk) 07:19, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why. I can sort of see an argument for "hinders" instead of "prevents", because of the slightly different meaning. However my understanding about the consensus for this page is that we want the English, and the logic, very simple. I don't think anyone wants this page to be used for subtle legalistic arguments about relative inconveniences. Switching "improving or maintaining" to "bettering" means you remove "maintaining", which is however vitally important. You would also once again switch to more unusual wording. I prefer plain everyday English wherever possible.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
Adding "your ability" would also empower the more novice editors, and who knows, maybe the veterans as well.
Based on your comments, I would leave it at this:
  • If a rule hinders you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it.
What do you think? @Andrew Lancaster
JLCop (talk) 08:49, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
I don't think adding "your ability to" is a good idea either, based on the same reasoning I mentioned above about keeping the English and the logic simple. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:02, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
I agree. With just one word different, it shouldn't cause any problems JLCop (talk) 09:09, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
I don't think its better that way. Hinder is less clear than prevent.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:19, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
I think that's the point... It relies on community oversight and consensus to manage potential misuse. JLCop (talk) 00:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
I agree with Andrew. 'Hinder' and 'better' (as a verb) are relatively uncommon words and the simplicity of this policy is its strength. I'm also not sure that the intention behind switching 'prevents' to 'hinders' is correct. IAR is a safety valve for bad rules or bad applications of rules. Rules like WP:BLP, WP:BRD or WP:COIEDIT make it more difficult to improve the encyclopaedia without preventing it, for good reason, so they shouldn't be ignored for that alone. – Joe (talk) 11:24, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
The intent of IAR is to allow editors the flexibility to improve Misplaced Pages even when rules might pose obstacles. It is not meant to encourage Reckless Disregard for important policies.
If a rule hinders but doesn't completely prevent improvement, editors can assess the situation to determine if ignoring the rule is justifiable. JLCop (talk) 23:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
It also empowers editors to improve Misplaced Pages effectively, even when faced with hindrances, while still adhering to fundamental policies and ethical standards (see also WP:COMMON) JLCop (talk) 23:09, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Trying to cover all of those nuances would turn it into a big complicated page, the opposite of what has been accepted and wanted. . And those are already taken care of by how this policy operates, and interacts with the fuzzy Misplaced Pages ecosystem. It currently has the strong, brief, simple widely accepted language. North8000 (talk) 14:50, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Andrew, Joe, and North. The policy is simple and direct. It serves its intended purpose as written. I don't think the proposed rewrite is an improvement. Schazjmd (talk) 23:15, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
Agreed. The language on this page seems set in stone (and maybe will be, on a statue or two). Randy Kryn (talk) 00:43, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
Is that a good argument? Ethereal Whisper (talk) 23:13, 19 June 2024 (UTC)


Shu ha ri

Seems like folks missed the link with Shu ha ri. ( "follow the rules, break the rules, transcend the rules" )

I figured surely it must have been discussed at least, but I couldn't find mention in the archives so quickly.

--Kim Bruning (talk) 20:13, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Not sure that it is really connected… but… whatever. Blueboar (talk) 18:46, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

or not

can this be used to violate the three reverts edit warring rule 119.234.4.105 (talk) 01:08, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

The full article reads -
If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it.
Can you provide an example where violating the three-revert rule would improve or maintain Misplaced Pages? - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 01:32, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
Good faith reverts to remove vandalism is one example (however, since this is an exception to 3RR that is spelled out in that guideline, I suppose it isn’t a “violation”). Blueboar (talk) 02:21, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Does this rule apply?

I was going to add to an article from the corresponding article on the Spanish WP, but the Spanish article only cited two sources throughout. I felt that I shouldn't translate any information over to the English article because of lack of citations. Should I have just added the info? The article in question: Herrera, Seville. BigChrisKenney (talk) 04:55, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

This isn't the right venue for your question.....the article talk page would be the best spot. But, as a quick note, there's a rule against adding un-sourcable material, there isn' a categorical rule agains adding unsourced material. North8000 (talk) 22:22, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
@BigChrisKenney In the future, general purpose questions tend to get pretty good answers on WP:TEAHOUSE and HELP:DESK. I also agree with North8000 that Talk:Herrera, Seville is a better place to discuss this. Regarding translating un-cited material, people do that a lot and really it just depends on the article and the content. In this case, I see hard facts in the geography section that are verifiable even though they are not cited. Citations would improve that content, but it likely meets WP:V without them. Compare it to a section like Jeep Cherokee (XJ)#Axles where the citations are absent, but it's all hard facts that can be checked. Further down I see things like, "Si por algo se caracteriza el pueblo de Herrera es por las infraestructuras deportivas (más abajo detalladas) y por la amplia participación ciudadana en el deporte y la cantidad de eventos que se realizan la categoría que poseen." which probably needs a citation and in-text attribution (who says this characterizes the town?). Good luck, Rjj (talk) 04:07, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
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