Misplaced Pages

Latest revision as of 16:34, 9 January 2025

Journal of Indo-European Studies

In order to avoid an edit war I am starting a topic here for this. The article for the Journal for Indo-European studies has throughout the years been given undue weight consistently to make it look like its a journal of poor standing when its not. The content places far too much focus on Roger Pearson, its founding publisher,and not enough on the journal's actual content in order to make it look 'racist' when it is not since it is clearly a linguistic journal. The article currently reads more like a mini bio on Pearson rather than anything to do with the actual content of the journal itself. More over, edits go unchecked on that article for over a month that remove info that makes the journal look reputable yet edits that take out all the mostly irrelevant bio info on Pearson and alleged negative aspects of the journal get scrutinized quickly and reverted. There is clear POV pushing and an anti-NPOV campaign going on here. Other editors have flagged it as being largely unbalanced and given undue weight. I am asking here for help in order to better remedy the situation as right now there is a stalemate and the way the article looks and reads right now is a mess. Geog1 (talk) 21:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Can you list plainly the sources you have that you feel paint a balanced picture of the journal? Remsense ‥ 论 22:27, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

The only source that has anything remotely balanced to say about the journal in that article is this:

Tucker, William H. (2002). Jazayery (ed.). The Funding of Scientific Racism: Wickliffe Draper and the Pioneer Fund.

Nearly everything else entered in that article is meant to make the journal basically look like neo-nazis literature which it is not. It is simply a linguistic journal that focuses on linguistic matters concerning the Indo-European language family. Hardly any of the content of the journal itself is presented or discussed in the article. Surely that is problematic in and of itself. The journal isn't about Roger Pearson yet the way the article is written would have you believe its all about Pearson and that the journal is racist which it can't possibly be since its a linguistic journal. Geog1 (talk) 22:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

No, I'm asking you about what you have. If you could collate the bibliography from scratch, what would it cite? Remsense ‥ 论 22:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

The only other texts I can think of that would maybe counter balance things are actual articles from the journal itself which shows its not racist:

https://www.jies.org/DOCS/jies_index/mainindex.html

I think the problem though is the content in the wiki article itself does not focus on what the journal actually has in it. Its all literature being used to paint it as racist. Geog1 (talk) 00:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I mean, this is pretty quickly revealing itself as the unavoidable core issue though, right? We don't write encyclopedia articles based predominantly on primary sources—and in this case, what the journal itself contains is a primary source for claims about the journal itself—but on secondary sources, and so we're going to be first and foremost balancing what independent, published, reliable sources have to say about it. This is a pretty basic restatement of our core policy on neutral point of view and our guideline on reliable sources. Remsense ‥ 论 00:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Right, I understand the issue here between primary and secondary sources. But I really don't think the secondary sources are necessarily reliable, Arvidson for instance has a political ideology that lends an inherent biased against what the journal is about. I suspect the same applies for probably other sources there as well. But it all seems at the end of the day unbalanced and against NPOV. Geog1 (talk) 00:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry but we don't exclude a work from an academic just because they're Marxist. Simonm223 (talk) 16:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

The context in which Arvidson's ideas presented here within the article (too many one sided views) coupled with how the ideology creates a biasing effect against the topic per the author's book is problematic. There are quite a few claims in the Arvidson book that shows he really just doesn't care for the study of Indo-European linguistics and mythology per his political stance which is bias. Question: are opinions derived from books written by authors with a strong right leaning political ideology allowed here on wikipedia and considered 'reliable sources'. Geog1 (talk) 16:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Generally yes, unless the strong right-leaning political ideology gets into WP:FRINGE beliefs such as pro-eugenicism or other racist / supremacist opinions and assuming they're operating within an area of specialty and would not, otherwise, be considered unreliable regardless of their personal politics.

I'll be honest, when dealing with academic sources, I don't generally look up the ideological position of the author unless it's somehow actually relevant. And I don't believe it's at all relevant here. Simonm223 (talk) 18:20, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I think that is rather naive and not very reasonable that an author's background or ideology wouldn't be relevant and that due diligence shouldn't be given to an author's background when choosing sources that would write fairly or reasonably on a subject. I don't think a book Sean Hannity would write on socialism would be received well in a wiki article pertaining to said subject and would raise editorial ire fairly quickly. We are dealing with much the same situation here. Geog1 (talk) 18:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Sean Hannity is not an academic and does not write academic books. As such he's rather irrelevant to this discussion and the context of my response which was specific to the review of academic books and journals. Simonm223 (talk) 18:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Academics do not represent completely neutral views. Certainly not Arvidsson. Just like Sean Hannity doesn't. Separating the two is not as useful as you think. Both entities are capable of publishing highly skewed views on any position. You're essentially discouraging due diligence here. I don't find that very academic and suspect in its own right. Geog1 (talk) 19:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:NPOV does not mean that a source must be neutral. Simonm223 (talk) Simonm223 (talk) 19:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Bringing up the highly biased and skewed Arvidsson text as not within the many guidelines within Misplaced Pages's NPOV is fair game. You are trying to set your own perimiters here. Geog1 (talk) 19:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this is a problem that needs to be resolved. Anyone familiar with Indo-European studies is aware that the Journal of Indo-European Studies is a major, respected, and influential peer-reviewed publication in the field. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. There really isn't anything wrong with the Journal itself, especially if you read it, but the sources presented have a peculiar bias against the journal. Geog1 (talk) 00:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, you're free to think there's nothing wrong with it, but I'm genuinely not sure what we're meant to do while writing an encyclopedia article about it? Are we supposed to adopt a totally novel process than when writing about anything else? (To the best of my ability, these aren't rhetorical questions.) Remsense ‥ 论 00:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

In short, we just need to build out the article more regarding its reception, especially with discussion from individuals who actually have a background and standing in historical linguistics. For example, a quick look at the editor-in-chief since 2020 reveals quotes that actually reflect how the journal is perceived in for example philology and historical linguistics (eg. "a long-standing journal with a stellar reputation and a global reach"). :bloodofox: (talk) 00:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

There are opinions about the journal expressed in secondary sources that have questionable merit. Especially when you compare these opinions to what's actually in the journal. This is indeed very problematic and presents a rather unique problem here. I don't know the best way to remedy this either other than through continued dialogue. Perhaps maybe we can strike a harmonious balance. At the moment, something is very wrong here. Geog1 (talk) 00:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Ultimately the article (as with all Misplaced Pages articles) needs to be based on what reliable secondary sources say about the journal. What editors think of the journal is of no import, and what editors of the journal say about it is of limited use. The solution is to find additional secondary sources that discuss the journal. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I see some edits made over at the JIES article but to me it seems making a whole subsection about Pearson does more to draw away what the journal is about. The journal is not Pearson. Contributors and editors like Mallory, Polome, Adams, and Kristiansen made the journal by and large what it is today. Not Pearson. We still have some ways to go here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geog1 (talk • contribs) 16:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I think the solution is to simply build out the rest of the article and then return to it. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

The secondary sources in the article clearly indicate your opinion - that the presence of a known white-supremacist as a founder of the journal is irrelevant to the reputation of the journal - is not universal among academics. I concur with bloodofox. If you're concerned about how the journal is depicted then you find sources that support it being described as not an armature of Mankind Quarterly. Simonm223 (talk) 18:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

The limited secondary sources that are highly biased in the wiki as it stands does in no way represent a universal opinion among academics in and of themselves. The journal is simply not being represented fairly based on the texts available. Pearson's involvement is vastly over stated and the idea that its an extension of himself somehow is completely unfounded. Geog1 (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok this is getting repetitive. I'm sorry you haven't got the response here you hoped for. But the advice to improve the article by finding additional academic sources is good advice and would serve you better than suggesting we should never treat the criticism of a journal with a white supremacist founder as due because said criticism came from a Marxist. Simonm223 (talk) 19:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Again you're discouraging due diligence and whether or not a source can be viewed as reliable or not. If you would just read the journal yourself you would see its not at all what Arvidsson is trying to paint it as. Geog1 (talk) 19:04, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry but do your own research isn't appropriate in this case. Arvidsson is reliable because he's an academic writing about the topic that is at the literal core of his academic domain. He is, flatly put, a WP:BESTSOURCE for criticism of Indo-European studies. As such it would be a violation of WP:NPOV to exclude him. However that does not mean that Misplaced Pages should treat his position as privileged in some way. If other WP:BESTSOURCES disagree with him then they would be due inclusion too. This is why you've been told to find other sources. Simonm223 (talk) 19:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Ardvisson as a 'best choice' in this is simply your opinion. You're a socialist after all, so apparently he seems reasonable to you. Many others would not feel the same way you do. Sorry if you do no understand that. But feel free to continue the 'repetive' conversation here. At the end of the day all I see is due diligence being discouraged and a lack of NPOV. Geog1 (talk) 19:28, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

And now we have reached the point in the conversation when I ask you to read WP:NPA. Simonm223 (talk) 19:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

There was no personal attack. My tone was the same as yours. For all intended purposes that would mean you should read that yourself. If you would like to end this conversation cordially, now would be fine. We simply don't agree. Geog1 (talk) 19:32, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

You're a socialist after all... is, in context, a personal attack as you're suggesting my own, openly stated, politics makes me incapable of recognizing whether an academic is operating within his specialty - which he did his doctoral thesis on - and are trying to dismiss my advice accordingly. I would kindly ask you to strike that comment. Simonm223 (talk) 20:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I said politely that we should end this conversation as its turning out to be very, very unproductive. We don't agree on anything apparently and I don't take very well to people discouraging due diligence and setting their own standards on how wiki guidelines should be viewed. Please, stop. Geog1 (talk) 20:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

• I mean, if that's what sources say about it, then that's what sources say about it. The sources we're citing there are largely academics with at least some degree of expertise in Indo-European studies, race science or far-right movements. Also, we're really only devoting a few sentences to the matter, which are roughly balanced in terms of focus - two for scholars who criticize it; one noting the existence of the boycott, and two from Tucker and Mallory defending the journal (and the defenses are given slightly more text!) Having them exactly balance out like that isn't necessary of course, but it makes it harder to argue that they're being given undue weight - aside from the fact that the page says almost nothing else about the journal at all, which is solved by finding other sources covering other aspects. (I will say that I did a quick search right now and found only a few passing mentions, all of which were about the race science connection to one degree or another. That really does seem to be the only aspect of the journal that has received meaningful external coverage. See eg. : Although Duranton-Crabol (1988: 148), fifteen years ago, pointed with alarm to his involvement, Lincoln appears to be the first US-based Indo-European specialist to openly comment on the worrisome background of Roger Pearson, the publisher of the prestigious Journal of Indo-European Studies since its founding in 1973. Notable mostly because it's a secondary source describing such concerns, which lends additional weight to at least mentioning them.) ...also, they point out that Bruce Lincoln, who we cite in the article, is actually an Indo-European specialist; we might want to look at what we're citing him for and see if there are more details there. --Aquillion (talk) 22:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
• @Geog1: You must notify other editors involved in a discussion (i.e. me) when you post it to this noticeboard. There is a big red notice instructing you to this at the top of the page. – Joe (talk) 07:13, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
• I don't really get what we can do here. "Neutral" specifically is a technical term meaning in proportion to what the independent, reliable secondary sources have said on the topic, and the limits of editorial discretion do not extend to excluding the what seems to be the views expressed by the majority of those sources, as indicated by the participants here. If the sources say that the earth is flat, then we can only report that that is what the sources say. Misplaced Pages does not have the resources to conduct original research, and it would be disallowed by policy even if we were able to. Alpha3031 (t • c) 09:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Just one other thing I have to bring up here. I noticed the Tucker quote had the text about Pearson's involvement regarding published material in JIES flagged as dubious for a while. I don't know by who. Eventually it was removed because someone (not sure who) did research noting Pearson had published 3 articles in the journal. That would seem to be original research. When we look at the Berlet and Lyons quote being used in the article, they claim the Journal is 'racialist' and 'ayranist' but it is a linguistic journal not 'racialist' or whatever. This can be seen by just reading a few entries from the journal which can easily be found online just like the Berlet and Lyons quote was easily pulled for online yet we see that characterization of the journal persist. This appears to present some inconsistency on how editing policy is being used.

I see the comment by Aquillion mentions how if 'reliable' sources report the earth is flat, then according to wikipedia policy, its fair game to put into an article and discuss. While I understand this is a policy, I'm not entirely sure if its serving us well here. This could open the door of Pandora's box for all sorts of misinformation to be presented in wiki articles.

Finally, I took a look at the Journal of the Royal Statistical Society article. I see an entire section with no sources entitled 'discussion papers' which essentially relates to the journal's content. No one for some reason seems bothered that its not sourced but I have doubts that a similar section in the JIES article would go without scrutiny if we were to say flesh out what the content of the journal is actually like. Again, it would appear inconsistencies are presented here regarding wikipedia policy being applied to two different journals.

I don't know what can be done here, but like I said before in the JIES talk page, I'd welcome more information that could help balance out the article a little more. However, I also feel this is a situation where wikipedia policy is failing a particular article and I doubt this is the only one. In the future, it may be useful to revisit wikipedia policy and see if changes could be made to help prevent or better remedy situations like this.

Best,

Geog1 (talk) 17:02, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Geog1Thank you for bringing up these important points. It's clear that there's a need for careful scrutiny and consistent application of Misplaced Pages's policies to ensure accuracy and neutrality in our articles.

Regarding the Tucker quote and Pearson's involvement, it's essential to rely on verifiable sources and avoid original research. If a reliable source supports the claim that Pearson published in JIES, then it can be included. However, if the source is questionable, it should be approached with caution.

The characterization of the JIES as "racialist" and "Aryanist" is a serious allegation. It's crucial to base such claims on solid evidence from reliable sources. Simply reading a few articles may not be sufficient to make such a sweeping judgment. If there are specific examples of racist or discriminatory content in the journal, they should be cited and discussed in a neutral manner.

The Aquillion comment about the "flat Earth" scenario highlights a potential limitation of Misplaced Pages's policies. While it's important to be open to diverse viewpoints, it's equally important to maintain a high standard of quality and accuracy. In cases where there is a clear consensus among reliable sources, it's important to prioritize that consensus over fringe theories.

The issue of unsourced content in the Journal of the Royal Statistical Society is a valid concern. However, it's important to consider the context and purpose of such sections. If these sections are intended to stimulate discussion and debate, rather than present definitive facts, then they may not require strict adherence to sourcing guidelines. Tattipedia (talk) 06:14, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Everything being discussed is appropriately sourced to highly reliable sources. Simonm223 (talk) 12:07, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Also please have the respect for other people not to reply with a textwall of obvious chatbot glurge. Simonm223 (talk) 12:09, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

notability concerns

• Gonna skip all the conversation above and ask an honest question... can we just delete it? states it has an h-index of 10, and states an impact factor of 0.2. It doesn't seem like it would survive WP:NJOURNAL. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:47, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

  Did AfD: Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Journal_of_Indo-European_Studies Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

  The result was speedy keep.XavierItzm (talk) 17:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Unwarranted promotional and COI tags on film articles

Hi, I need help with some tags that have been added to two articles please:

• It's Coming (film)
• Draft:The Misguided

I'm getting pretty tired of the constant unfounded allegations. First it was paid editing (which got removed after review), then COI tags without evidence, and now suddenly it's "promotional content" - but nobody's actually pointed out what's promotional or what constitutes a conflict of interest. Here's the situation:

1. Everything in these articles comes from proper independent sources like The Hollywood Reporter, LA Times, and Film Threat 2. Yes, some reviews are positive, but that's what the reliable sources reported 3. My only contact with the filmmaker was to check facts like dates and get source materials 4. I have no other connection to these films or anyone involved 5. The latest tags were just slapped on without any discussion, continuing this pattern of baseless accusations

The articles stick to Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view rules. If something sounds promotional, tell me what it is and I'll fix it. I'm happy to add any negative reviews too if someone can find them in reliable sources.

You can see the whole frustrating history here:

• Misplaced Pages:Help desk#Help with New Page Patrol Review and Paid Editing Tag Removal for "It's Coming"
• Misplaced Pages:Help desk#Dispute over Paid Editing Tag on "It's Coming" and Review of "The Misguided" Draft
• Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#COI tags on "It's Coming (film)" and "The Misguided"

Can we get a fair review based on what's actually in the articles, not just assumptions and accusations? I am requesting that these unwarranted promotional content and COI tags be removed from the articles. Much appreciated!

Stan1900 (talk) 22:39, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Update: I've just discovered that the entire Reception section, which contained properly sourced reviews from Rotten Tomatoes and multiple independent critics, has been removed without discussion. This further demonstrates the issue with these arbitrary content removals. The deleted section was entirely based on reliable sources and followed Misplaced Pages guidelines. I have preserved the content and sources and request review of both the tags and this content removal. Stan1900 (talk) 23:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

This discussion is Talk:It's_Coming_(film)#Promotional_tag here. You should know, you posted in the section. MrOllie (talk) 23:07, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

MrOllie, yes, I'm aware of that discussion. The wholesale removal of a properly sourced Reception section warrants broader review. This isn't just about a tag anymore - it's about the removal of verified content from reliable sources without justification. Stan1900 (talk) 23:11, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't "removed without discussion" as you just stated, then, was it? You've had an account since 2017, and in that time 100% of your editing has been about the films of Shannon Alexander, and often quite promotional in nature. If you don't want people to think you have a COI, I suggest you tone down the rhetoric, and strongly consider finding a way to improve the encyclopedia that is entirely unrelated to Alexander. MrOllie (talk) 23:15, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

MrOllie,

1. The Reception section was actually just removed without proper discussion. A few quick comments declaring content "promotional" without specific examples doesn't constitute real consensus.

2. Your statement about my editing history is wrong. My account was created to edit Katherine Langford's article, completely unrelated to Shannon Alexander. My recent focus on documenting these films stems from noticing a gap in coverage of internationally-recognized work - I've said countless times.

3. There's nothing "promotional" about including properly sourced reviews from reliable publications. If positive reviews exist in reliable sources, documenting them isn't promotion - it's proper encyclopedic coverage.

The focus should be on specific content concerns, not repeated unfounded attacks and assumptions about editor's motivations. Stan1900 (talk) 23:21, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Katherine Langford's article, where you wanted to correct information about a project she'd recently been in. Who made that film, I wonder? diff. Dishonesty is not going to help - every time you post something like this these 'attacks and assumptions' you mention appear to become better supported. MrOllie (talk) 23:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

This is just blatant forum shopping of a grievance previously discussed at the Helpdesk and now at COIN .

Also, why does the user continue to lie that their edits to Katherine Langford were completely unrelated to Shannon Alexander?

Here is one of the edits : Langford will appear in her first feature film, The Misguided, an independent comedic drama by Shannon Alexander. In actual fact, all of the user's edits to that article relate to Langford being in a film by Shannon Alexander.

Pants on fire, my friend, pants on fire... Axad12 (talk) 23:39, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

And Stan...

The reason the tags are in place and the reasons that the removals of material have occurred is that pretty much everyone who has commented in the various threads you've started disagrees fundamentally with what appears to be your transparent promotional agenda.

For reference, normal editors do not (a) create promotional articles, (b) open multiple threads trying to hurry the articles through AfC, (c) talk about when the articles will start to appear on Google searches, and (d) open multiple threads trying to strongarm other users into removing COI/PAID tags.

That pattern of behaviour is how conflict of interest users operate, usually ones who have been paid to produce articles to order. Axad12 (talk) 23:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

MrOllie, your implication about my editing history misses the point. Like many editors, I followed connected topics that revealed gaps in coverage. Following a subject area and documenting it with reliable sources isn't wrong - it's how Misplaced Pages grows.

More concerning is the removal of an entire Reception section containing properly sourced reviews from established publications. The content was based on reliable sources including Rotten Tomatoes and Film Threat. If specific statements appeared promotional, they should have been identified and discussed, not wholesale removed.

This pattern of removing sourced content while making assumptions about contributors' motivations vioaltes Misplaced Pages's principles. Stan1900 (talk) 04:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

It was discussed in the relevant place and the consensus was for removal. Another user has since added back the Rotten Tomatoes part of the Reception section, by which we can reasonably assume that they agree with the rest of the removal.

As I have stated to you before, the WP:ONUS is on the editor wishing to include material, not on those wishing to remove it. There is clearly no consensus in favour of inclusion, so arguing for inclusion in 3 completely separate threads (this thread, this one and this one ) is pointless.

In any event, it is obviously contrary to Misplaced Pages policy for an article about anything to be composed almost entirely of reviews, whether they are good or bad, so your line of argument is a very bad one in any case. Removal was thus entirely non-controversial. Axad12 (talk) 05:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Axad12, your interpretation of both consensus and policy continues to be problematic:

1. The "consensus" you reference was a single editor agreeing with you, while ignoring multiple objections. The fact that another editor has since restored part of the Reception section actually demonstrates that there isn't consensus for wholesale removal.

2. Your interpretation of WP:ONUS is incorrect in this context. The content was already established with proper reliable sources. The burden shifts to those seeking removal to demonstrate why properly sourced content should be deleted.

3. Your claim "it is obviously contrary to Misplaced Pages policy for an article about anything to be composed almost entirely of reviews" is simply false. Film articles regularly contain substantial reception sections when supported by reliable sources - see WP:FILMPLOT and WP:FILMSOURCE. The removed content was based entirely on independent, reliable sources providing critical analysis.

4. Regarding multiple discussion venues - each serves a distinct purpose and was used appropriately. Characterizing proper use of Misplaced Pages's established channels as "pointless" misrepresents how Misplaced Pages works.

The core issue remains: properly sourced content was removed without valid policy-based justification or genuine consensus. Stan1900 (talk) 16:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

You are completely wrong. Axad12 (talk) 16:27, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

The core content issues remain:

The removed material was based on reliable sources and followed standard article formatting. No concrete policy violations were identified.

Removals occurred without consensus, and often without any substantive talk page discussion.

Vague claims of "promotional" tone have been asserted without pointing to specific passages or policies.

AI detection results are being misused to discredit good faith, policy-compliant contributions.

If there are proper neutrality or sourcing concerns with the removed content, please identify the exact issues so they can be addressed collaboratively. But so far, the removals appear to be based more on unfounded personal suspicions than objective policy issues.

Wiki articles rightly include reception sections with mainstream press reviews. That's not inherently 'promotional' it's documenting verifiable real-world coverage. Removing properly cited review content is detrimental to readers and sets a terrible precedent.

I remain committed to working with anyone who has constructive, policy-based feedback on improving these articles further. But edit-warring removals and personal attacks need to stop in favor of substantive, collaborative discussion. We deserves better.

Let's get back to focusing on content and policies, not personal battles. I'm happy to discuss any neutrality problems if you identify concrete examples. But so far I've yet to see a compelling rationale for these removals of policy-compliant material. Stan1900 (talk) 16:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

The only important issue here is that, despite you starting multiple different threads in various different arenas, no one else agrees with you.

Therefore the tags remain and the removals remain.

You just have to accept that you are in the minority and move on. Continuing to argue is simply disruptive. Axad12 (talk) 16:46, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Axad12, your characterization of "no one else agrees" is both incorrect and misses the point. Several editors, including DMacks, have confirmed proper licensing and sourcing, and @Aafi has confirmed the images are restored after permissions verification. The issue isn't about counting votes - it's about following policy.

The systematic removal of:

1. Properly licensed images (with verified VRT permissions)

2. Well-sourced content from reliable publications

3. Standard film article sections matching Misplaced Pages's format

...cannot be justified by simply claiming "you're in the minority." Misplaced Pages is not a vote-counting exercise - it's about following established policies for content inclusion. The continued removal of policy-compliant content while dismissing legitimate concerns is what's being noted and actually disruptive here. Stan1900 (talk) 18:26, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I have no interest in the image issue. I am talking about the tags and the removal of the Reception section.

The consensus is again you and you are consistently arguing contrary to policy, so the distinction you draw above is rather pointless. You have also been demonstrated to be a liar. Axad12 (talk) 18:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Axad12,

I strongly object to your repeated accusations of dishonesty. If you believe I have misrepresented anything, I ask that you provide clear evidence rather than resorting to personal attacks. Misplaced Pages is built on good faith and such language is both unproductive and contrary this platform.

Regarding the tags and the Reception section, I have consistently argued my case based on policy, including WP:NPOV and WP:V. I have sought to include well-sourced and neutrally presented content.

Consensus is not determined by the number of voices in a discussion but by the strength of the arguments grounded in Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. I remain focused to working within those frameworks. Stan1900 (talk) 19:04, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I provided evidence of your dishonesty upthread here . The evidence is so clear that I will happily once again call you a liar. Axad12 (talk) 19:35, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, you consistently seem to believe that consensus is whatever you believe is correct, disregarding the opinions of every other user you encounter. Axad12 (talk) 19:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

1. Regarding transparency and process:

- Paid editing tags were initially added but subsequently removed through proper channels after review

- Wiki images were challenged but verified and reinstated through official processes

- All content is based on reliable, independent sources

- I served as an authorized representative specifically for image licensing/copyright verification, which was done transparently through proper Misplaced Pages channels

2. Regarding consensus, let's look at the actual outcomes:

- Multiple administrators have reviewed and approved image reinstatements

- Paid editing tags were removed after proper review

- Content has been verified through reliable sources

- I've made requested changes when specific issues were identified

3. This pattern shows I'm following Misplaced Pages's processes correctly. While I'm eager to expand my contributions to other topics and articles, I'm consistently forced to defend properly sourced and verified content instead of moving forward with new contributions.

I’ve repeatedly suggested we focus on addressing specific content concerns through collaboration, but this has been met with nothing but resistance, preventing any meaningful progress. Stan1900 (talk) 20:36, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

UPDATE: Stan1900 has now been indef blocked following a thread at ANI . Axad12 (talk) 23:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

RFC on Taylor Lorenz controversial statement regarding healthcare ceo shooting

Posting to relevant noticeboards: Talk:Taylor_Lorenz#RfC_on_Taylor_Lorenz's_comments_on_Brian_Thompson's_murder Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:27, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Bizarre weight on disordered eating in Grazing (human eating pattern)

Grazing (human eating pattern) is already a very specific article that might be worth merging into something more general, but Misplaced Pages is not paper so I guess there is no reason to not have an article on grazing. Still:

• Almost all the sources cite Conceição's work on disordered eating, and grazing's role in it.
• The article does not really describe grazing except for it being a risk factor in disordered eating, according to this one person.
• The article does contain information like the languages that Conceição's grazing questionnaire has been translated into.

I think if you exclude undue weight and Conceição-promotion then there are about 2 sentences worth of notable info which can be merged into another article. YAQUBROLI 21:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Randa Kassis and connected pages

In the light of the recent fall of the Assad regime in Syria, I have been trying to update a bit the articles about the Syrian opposition. There, I noticed that a lot of importance was given to Mrs Randa Kassis, which made me suspect that this could be a case of WP:UNDUE. Please note that this version presented her as the "leader" of the Syrian opposition, as a "leading figure of the Syrian opposition" and a "Leading secular female figure", all in the biographical infobox. A lot of content in the Randa Kassis page seems to rely on primary sources. After a simple research I could find that Mrs Kassis is controversial among the opposition due to her alleged ties to Russia. 1, 2, 3. Other people within the opposition have presented her and her groups as Russian-backed operatives. This may or may not be true, but it has to be mentioned in the article.

Also, several pages have been created about the groups created or chaired by Mrs Kassis, namely the Movement of the Pluralistic Society, the Coalition of Secular and Democratic Syrians and the Astana Platform (the latter of which should be rewritten).

While the Astana Platform is notable enough to warrant a page, I have my doubts about the first two, so I proposed to first merge the Movement of the Pluralistic Society page into the Randa Kassis article.

As a result, an IP accused me here of being "obsessed by Randa Kassis", and commented that what I did was "revolting" and amounted to "an harassment or sectarian political activism aimed at erasing or muzzling anyone who does not have his opinions". There were also accusations of malicious libel, presumably also against me.

Several references mentioning Kassis' suspected role as a pro-Russian operative were removed. The merger request was also unilaterally removed (I just put it back). Please note this comment (I guess that "the admin" is supposed to be me, even though I am no admin). This comment, this one and this one also appear to be about me.

Apart from the personal attacks against me, I think that the pages about Randa Kassis and her initiatives need to be monitored and rewritten in order to ensure their neutrality and avoid WP:UNDUE as well as WP:PROMO and WP:Advocacy.

I have also added back these parts, which had been removed as it seems normal to mention the controversies within the opposition.

However, I will now abstain from editing the page about Randa Kassis as long as it has not been reviewed by third parties. Thank you. Psychloppos (talk) 08:47, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I’m from Egypt, and Randa Kassis is well known to many of us for her courage. Since 2007, she has spoken openly about social, political, and religious taboos and has appeared on numerous Arab media outlets. She was one of the first to champion secularism.

You can observe that the secular coalition she created and presided over, alongside other opponents in 2011, preceded the formation of the Syrian National Council (SNC). After her expulsion from both the SNC and the secular coalition due to her warnings about Islamists, she ceased presiding over the secular coalition, and its fate remains unknown.

She was the only member of the opposition to adopt a pragmatic approach, going on to establish the Astana Platform in 2015 and the Constitutional Committee in 2017. Both initiatives were later recognised by the UN, Russia, Turkey, and Iran. 102.188.124.44 (talk) 11:57, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't mind mentioning this, as long as it is duly sourced and does not make the page look like a promotional piece. What we must also mention, however, is that Randa Kassis' ties to Russia have been controversial and widely reported by the media. Psychloppos (talk) 12:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I have added a NPOV tag to the Randa Kassis page as it still looks heavily promotional. Psychloppos (talk) 19:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello, regarding the edits on Carolina Amesty

I disagree with the edits made to the Carolina Amesty article. I have noticed that a user is adding information with a negative bias against Carolina Amesty instead of maintaining an objective and neutral approach. For my part, I added and removed information based on the official report. However, the Orlando Sentinel, a source that has maintained a critical stance towards Amesty and published a series of negative articles, has been used as a reference. To avoid conflicts, I will not undo any further edits, as I believe this is the appropriate space to resolve disputes between users. I prefer to wait for an impartial third party to review and determine the best version of the article. It is important to be cautious with sensationalist sources. If the information were accurate, it would be appropriate to include it, but this is not the case. I recommend reading the official report to ensure a more objective approach. Bilonio (talk) 15:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

You are edit warring to add flowery language to the article and someone reverted you. Take it to the article talk page and stop complaining here. 2603:7080:8F00:49F1:F53D:BE32:B541:C2C1 (talk) 23:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Blocking of studies indicating possible negative health effects of erythritol

Asking for help here to avoid an edit war. As can be seen on the Erythritol talk page and edit history, one editor is arguing that several cohort and experimental studies possibly linking the substance to cardiovascular risk should not be mentioned. The editor previously asked for more studies to emerge before mentioning this possible side effect. These studies have in the meanwhile emerged (producing indicative but mixed results - a fact that should be transparently communicated to readers) but have not changed the editor's position. Even more oddly, the editor now instead enforces the new criteria that until the FDA warns against the substance these studies should not be mentioned in the safety section. This strikes me as very US centric and odd.Psychwilly2 (talk) 19:46, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

This isn't an issue of neutrality, it is an issue of sourcing. Nothing has been presented that meets WP:MEDRS. And your summary of the other editor's argument is incorrect - they are drawing your attention to WP:MEDASSES, specifically the first paragraph. The FDA is an example, not a requirement. MrOllie (talk) 20:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

OP is pushing primary sources for medical claims; WP:MEDRS would be needed. Nothing to see here. Bon courage (talk) 20:43, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

User:BubbleBabis

Hi everyone, I'm not quite sure if this is the appropriate noticeboard to discuss this, but I would like to note my concerns about the edits of a particular user by the name of User:BubbleBabis. This editor has had a continuous and longstanding inability to add content in a neutral point of view with regard to articles concerning Israel and Iran. I believe that their edits have had an overall detrimental value to this wonderful website, its editors, and its readers. They have created multiple hoaxes, have added content with unreliable sources, have repeatedly added copyrighted content and the synthesis of published material, have frequently added off-topic information to articles, and possibly has trouble with their interpretation of the English language. I have previously voiced my concerns about their edits on Talk:Qasem Soleimani#Hoax and Talk:Mohammad Reza Zahedi#A hoax?. Other than what is mentioned on the aforementioned talk pages, many more edits display their publications of original research, problems with citing sources, and especially their inability to mention the authors of the sources they use to contribute with. They are often prone to the interpretation of opinions by one individual, or events mentioned by one person or reported by one think tank as indisputable facts. Their most recent edit, a large addition to the article for Ali Khameni, demonstrates this. In the edit, one source used by BubbleBabis is a blog written by Jonathan Schanzer, who was the director of policy for the conservative Jewish Policy Center think tank which is connected to the Republican Jewish Coalition, that was published by the U.S. opinion magazine The Weekly Standard. BubbleBabis uses this to say many things not mentioned by the blog. They use the source to say that "in 1991, evidence of increasing economic and military links between Sudan and Iran was revealed", this is not what the source says at all, it just mentions alleged events that took place in 1991 and does not mention anything about the reporting of the specific events in media or at what time they were reported to media. The words prior to the sentence are unsourced original research. The article does not mention sanctions or Iranian "isolation". Next BubbleBabis wrote that "In November 1993, Iran was reported to have financed Sudan's purchase of some 20 Chinese ground-attack aircraft.", however the article they cite does not mention this. In one paragraph they added in the edit about the Bosnian War, they improperly cite several books without giving proper attribution. I am highly suspect of the other paragraphs they added in the edit, especially the 2010 and 2020 sections, where they use bare url citations to paywalled articles I am at present unable to verify. They write as if they are constructing argumentative essays, which is not what Misplaced Pages is for, and are habitually unable to provide sources or proper attribution for their additions, or if they do provide sources, many times they are misrepresented, bare urls, or just entirely unhelpful. It is my hope and desire that this does not continue. Aneirinn (talk) 23:45, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

For concerns about any long pattern of behavior by a specific user, the right venue is WP:ANI. On WP:NPOVN we are primarily focused on content.

Also, before you post this to ANI, if you will, try to make this shorter, and add paragraph breaks and bullet points. Otherwise, people will end up skimming over your post, giving your post less attention than you may hope for. NicolausPrime (talk) 00:36, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism and Policy

I am kind of new here. I came across a reference to an organization called Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism and Policy while reading a news article - this one https://www.insidehighered.com/news/global/us-colleges-world/2024/02/16/how-texas-ams-qatar-campus-suddenly-collapsed - and went and read the Misplaced Pages article about them to find out who they are, and the Misplaced Pages article seems like, I don't know, propaganda. Can more experienced people look at it? Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Basalmnine (talk • contribs) 10:18, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

@Basalmnine Any specific concerns? I think there is too much self-sourced material in it. Doug Weller talk 17:04, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I had a look at the article and I think the issue is that no criticism of the org exists within the article which makes its often controversial claims about campus antisemitism seem more trustworthy than might be required by neutrality. My question to Balsamnine is whether they have any RSes for criticism. Simonm223 (talk) 12:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

but also the editor should be aware this article is affected by the Israel/Palestine edit restrictions and requires participation from EC editors. Simonm223 (talk) 12:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

If the article in question is Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism and Policy, it seems pretty balanced. It's biases/advocacy and what it tries to do is well described, if you are on either side of the conflict you won't be thinking that the article is unfairly describing what it does, i.e. alleging antisemitism and terrorist links for all pro-Palestinianism in US higher education.

I added an edit to the lead just now describing its recent work on researching allegations of antisemitism on university campuses. as long as we don't go about in wikivoice, without attribution, describing pro-Palestine protests as inherently antisemitic (and I don't think that article does), we are probs fine. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I guess the biggest issue with the article is that some of the sourcing are the white papers produced by the institute itself. we really shouldn't be using material produced by the institute itself to attribute the research it does, though it also seems there are secondary sourcing quoting the research that is also cited. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Doug Weller talk 21:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

For NPOV, it would certainly be a good source for both facts and findings/perspectives on other Wiki pages. Scharb (talk) 15:30, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

thats a convo for WP:RSN not NPOVN Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:18, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Biased article

The 2024 Bangladesh anti-Hindu violence article is completely biased. More editors need to get involved and make it more neutral.-UnprejudicedObserver1 (talk) 05:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

yeah, 45% of text is from User:CosmLearner, who was blocked for sockpuppetting.

another 15% is from User:B'Desh-In_Outlook who is a sockpuppet of CosmLearner.

almost all the contributions are from sockpuppets actually, clicking most of the users by text-added indicates many were blocked for sockpuppeting. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:57, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Operation Olive Branch and false consensus

There is a 3 user "consensus" on the article Operation Olive Branch being called an invasion instead of an operation. I have provided Google search results and prominence of news outlets/countries' reactions on the talk page. The word "operation" appears 122 times (except for the title "Operation Olive Branch") while invasion appears as 17 times (now 18) after the false consensus. @Bondegezou: and @Traumnovelle: have been ignoring my evidence regarding WP:UNDUE. @Applodion: also explained how this is not an invasion. The issue here is cherry picked sources calling this an invasion, while vast majority of the sources calls this an operation. Example for earlier google search results:

"afrin offensive" (16,000 results)

"operation olive branch" (72,200 results)

"olive branch operation" (56,300 results)

"afrin invasion" (2,990 results)

Misplaced Pages consensus formation considers all available, valid source material. For simple matters like titling and style questions, we directly depend on aggregate results (Google Ngrams that track string-usage frequency in books over time; Google News, Google Scholar, and Google Books search results and the patterns they reveal in sources; etc.). The idea that they are to be ignored, or are second place to what just happens to be cited already in the article as of this timestamp, is not only unworkable but absurd. It bears no resemblance to how Misplaced Pages:Consensus is actually formed. per Misplaced Pages:Fallacy of selective sources.

TLDR: users imposing minority view despite of undue weight. Beshogur (talk) 16:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

... I mean, by any definition, isn't it an invasion? I'm not a fan of euphemisms like "cross-country 1.3 year operation".

also folks have pointed out that google search counts are useless, if a thousand blogs by random folks on internet say its an operation, but 10 reliable sources call it an invasion, we should go with rs. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:06, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

What do the actual reliable sources say? Simonm223 (talk) 17:21, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't care actually who calls it invasion or not, for example part of my comment on the talk page: European Parliament source contains 5x Operation Peace Spring (name of the operation, propaganda in this case), 12 times operation (except Operation Peace Spring, and title 1x), 1 time invasion.

I don't care about operation as well. "was an offensive" is possible (best NPOV imo). However this is definitely not an invasion. if a thousand blogs by random folks on internet say its an operation, but 10 reliable sources call it an invasion I have provided evidence for RS calling this operation however. The issue here is undue weight. More sources calling this an operation rather than an invasion. These are just example RS calling this an operation (nothing to do with prominence).

• European Parliament: Turkey's military operation in Syria and its impact on relations with the EU
• CNN: Turkish operation in Syria undercuts US gains in ISIS fight
• AJ: Turkey’s operation in Syria’s Afrin: The key players
• NYT: Turkey Begins Operation Against U.S.-Backed Kurdish Militias in Syria
• Reuters: Turkey's military operation against Kurdish YPG in Afrin

As I explained, this offensive had more Syrian troops than Turkish.

cross-country 1.3 year operation regarding this, the offensive took only 2 months (57 days according to Turkish ministry of defence), the insurgency phase doesn't have a date at all, someone just added a begin and end date. Imo should be removed, SDF insurgency in northern Syria already exist. Beshogur (talk) 17:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

The amount of Syrian troops doesn't mean this can't be called an invasion. The Wars of the Roses uses the term invasion even though most if not all the troops were English.

Are you even reading your sources? The first one says: 'Though the decision of Turkish President, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, to invade the north-

east Syrian region governed by the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD)...'

The second says: 'Turkey’s military incursion against Kurdish groups in Afrin, Syria...'

The New York Times says: 'Turkey has made several incursions into Syria.'

So half your sources support it being an invasion, that is hardly 'undue weight'. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Are you even reading your sources? The first one says are you even reading my comment? Stop cherry picking one word. The first one used 12x more operation. This is simply lying in order to gain advantage. Beshogur (talk) 21:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Being referred to as an operation doesn't exclude it being an invasion. The two terms are not mutually exclusive. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

The issue is here not operation. I am open to change it to "an offensive", more neutral tone. And this is not an invasion. It's invasion according to a minority, which makes it undue weight. Beshogur (talk) 21:36, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

For reference Assad regime and Cyprus are the only countries calling this an invasion. France calls it, if it becomes an attempted invasion. Other countries? Nothing. Arab league and EU called this an intervention. Beshogur (talk) 21:39, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

The EU parliament document refers to it as an invasion, countries might be wanting to avoid the term to maintain good relations with Turkey. We rely on reliable sources and not specifically government sources. Traumnovelle (talk) 22:36, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Because of one word from the pdf? That's straight up Misplaced Pages:Don't lie. Stop. Operation appears 12 times.

European Parliament source: Turkey’s military intervention in the Kurdish-controlled enclave of Afrin in Syria Beshogur (talk) 23:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Please don't call me a liar. The source clearly refers to it as an invasion, it doesn't need to repeat the term invasion several times once it has already characterised it as such. Traumnovelle (talk) 23:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

2 times vs 12 times (except for "Operation Olive Branch")? You're ignoring this. All sources contains the title operation and you're cherry picking one word from the text below. Beshogur (talk) 23:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Literally the first page.

Title: Turkey's military operation in Syria and its impact on relations with the EU

SUMMARY

Operation Peace Spring', launched on 9 October 2019, is the third major Turkish military operation on Syrian territory since 2016, following the 'Euphrates Shield' (2016-2017) and 'Olive Branch' (2018) operations. Though the decision of Turkish President, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, to invade the northeast Syrian region governed by the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD), may have come as a surprise to some, it is in fact consistent with the rationale of a regime that counts the fight against the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) – considered 'terrorist' not only by Turkey, but also by the United States and the EU – among its top security priorities.

And you pick one word, which means undue weight. That's misleading readers. Beshogur (talk) 23:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Just like what DanielRigal said the terms aren't mutually exclusive. An operation can be an invasion e.g. Operation Downfall. Traumnovelle (talk) 23:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay, Syrian troops invading Syrian soil. I'm done. How can I explain those aren't same things? Beshogur (talk) 23:24, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

By this logic, the Bay of Pigs invasion wasn't an invasion either. But both arguments would be OR so this really isn't a tangent worth indulging furthe. _signed, Rosguill 00:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

@Rosguill: just a question, how come this can be described an invasion despite of minority views? Because few users agreed here doesn't mean it's the truth? Am I wrong? I have provided many evidence regarding this. Verifiability doesn't mean truth? Beshogur (talk) 13:52, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

What the other editors are arguing is that this isn't actually a minority view, and that it's inaccurate to argue that "operation" and "invasion" are mutually exclusive. The best evidence against such an argument would be RS stating that it is not an invasion, or else a demonstrated, overwhelming majority of RS that avoid using the phrase "invasion". _signed, Rosguill 20:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Noting that the Google Scholar results arguments in a separate thread below are a valid argument in that direction, although the search terms surveyed are not quite comprehensive (there's a lot of other ways that the operation could be referred to other than "Afrin ", and "Afrin invasion" is much less likely to be used than "Invasion of Afrin" , "Occupation of Afrin" or "invaded Afrin" ). A lot of the same sources also come up across these various searches. My sense is that the raw results are close enough that a closer reading of RS text is needed (not all Scholar results are of equal quality). _signed, Rosguill 20:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:CONSISTENT is a policy and we have articles like 2024 Israeli invasion of Syria. To be honest I'd suggest renaming the article to a more descriptive title, perhaps one with the word "invasion" as it would be much clearer to the reader.

Note that there are RS that use the term "invasion", for example The Kurds in a New Middle East by Gunes (2018), p. 77 and The Kurds in the Middle East by Gurses et al (p. 153). Alaexis_¿question? 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not denying people calling this an invasion, but I am saying this is undue weight. You should look how majority of news outlets / countries reacted, not some cherry picked sources. I'm trying to tell this all the time. I can also bring source calling this a liberation, etc. Do we even include it?

Comparing this to Israeli invasion is comparing pears and apples. It can be compared Turkish incursions into northern Iraq. These Syrian areas isn't even governed by the Turkish military. Beshogur (talk) 17:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, they can hardly be compared as the Turkish operation had a much greater scale.

Regarding the sources, they are books written by experts. These are higher-quality sources than media outlets. Alaexis_¿question? 21:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

"Operation" is a word that imparts very little information at all. It is a very broad term and it does not in any way imply that something is not an invasion. Many undisputed invasions have been known as "Operation (something)", as have a great many other things that were not invasions. When deciding whether to call this an invasion all that is required is for sufficient Reliable Sources to say that it is and insufficient Reliable Sources to say that it isn't. The ones who only say "operation" are not saying either way. Such abstentions should not be counted as endorsing either side of the question. DanielRigal (talk) 22:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

@DanielRigal: Well I agree on the title being not NPOV, (it's already criticized in the article) but it was chosen for the common name since the sources referred that way, similar to Euphrates Shield, however the issue is the first sentence. It doesn't make sense since rest of the article is called operation almost everywhere. Beshogur (talk) 23:29, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

If the operation was an invasion then it can be described as such, even in the first sentence. We should try to be as specific as possible where it matters but it doesn't matter if the word "operation" is used more frequently than "invasion" in the body, only if the description of it as an invasion is significantly denied or contested in Reliable Sources. DanielRigal (talk) 23:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Can you please describe how this is an invasion exactly while Syrian troops are more than Turkish ones? That's I'm trying to tell since 0. Turkey isn't governing over the areas (yes keeping it's Syrian proxies). But the whole war is a proxy warfare. The area wasn't even controlled by the legitimate Syrian government back then. "was an offensive" is a good solution imo. I don't try to force operation here. Beshogur (talk) 23:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

RFC?

Do we need an RFC to settle it? I think I saw @Selfstudier: actually coming down against calling it an invasion on the page talk, but otherwise, I can't quite tell if Beshogur is the only one advocating against the invasion terminology? Were there others? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Idk what it should be called, except that by title it is currently called an operation, why I suggested an RM to decide if that is appropriate. Selfstudier (talk) 09:27, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

i am confused. the rm would determine article title, while beshugoar is complaining about descriptions in the lede of this being described as an invasion? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 21:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

We’ve had lengthy discussion on this issue. There is a clear majority view. This is largely Beshogur alone being unhappy about that view. Bondegezou (talk) 09:57, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

3 users? Clear majority view? With cherry picked sources that doesn't reflect the weight? Beshogur (talk) 13:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I put up an RM, should sort it out there rather than going around in circles here. Selfstudier (talk) 13:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, but the proposed title had to be more descriptive imo. It's pretty vague. Beshogur (talk) 13:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

It's an RM, suggest something else. Selfstudier (talk) 13:50, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

We had a lengthy discussion. People put forth various lines of evidence and of argument. We ended with 4 in favour (not 3) and just you, Beshogur, against. That’s how Misplaced Pages works. I don’t see any value in re-opening the discussion. I would suggest that there is plenty of other bits of Misplaced Pages that you could usefully contribute to rather than continuing this. Bondegezou (talk) 13:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Lengthy discussion with only argument of 5 sources, and ignoring the fact how prominent they were. You couldn't prove otherwise regarding news outlets, search numbers. This is just a false consensus. Misplaced Pages consensus formation considers all available, valid source material. For simple matters like titling and style questions, we directly depend on aggregate results (Google Ngrams that track string-usage frequency in books over time; Google News, Google Scholar, and Google Books search results and the patterns they reveal in sources; etc.). The idea that they are to be ignored, or are second place to what just happens to be cited already in the article as of this timestamp, is not only unworkable but absurd. It bears no resemblance to how Misplaced Pages:Consensus is actually formed. Beshogur (talk) 14:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Last comment regarding this. Academic book argument:

• Afrin invasion 9
• Afrin offensive 71
• Afrin operation 205

Beshogur (talk) 14:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I think these searches are a bit limited in their grammar. Additional search terms:

• Invasion of Afrin 101 results
• Occupation of Afrin 84 results
• "Afrin" "Turkish invasion" 310 results
• "Afrin" "Turkish operation" 191 results

My sense, prior to having done any further analysis on these sources, is that these search results are in the range where either term is plausible as a correct canonical term, and closer reading (which in practice would mean: the assembling of a working, high-quality bibliography for the article and analyzing how each of these sources refers to the topic) could provide basis for new and stronger arguments. These results, don't, however, suggest that "invasion" is an obviously remote minority among terms. _signed, Rosguill 20:17, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I mean in mainstream media, it's mostly called operation or offensive (as well as countries' reactions), however the 2019 one (still the same type of operation) was sanctioned by many countries, had more reaction. Here it didn't happen, and internationally it had no consequenses. I wonder how does this fit in an invasion description? Since English is not my first tongue, am I just confused? Invasion and occupation isn't the same thing too right? Beshogur (talk) 14:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems that enough time has passed that there are now many peer-reviewed sources, such that we can reduce our reliance on news media that serves only as the first draft of history. Ultimately, provided that the sources in question are reputable and peer-reviewed, their internal reasoning for choosing one term or another doesn't matter, we simply follow their lead.

Regarding invasion vs. occupation, I wasn't trying to imply that they were the same thing, apologies if it gave that impression. It simply seemed to be another relevant, similar, value-laden term to refer to the operation and its consequences, that evidently does have some purchase in the literature. It popped up in the previews when I was searching for the other terms I listed so it felt worthwhile to see how common it was itself. _signed, Rosguill 20:22, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Redirecting Afrin offensive (January–March 2018) to Operation Olive Branch

Relevant discussion, just notifying folks here. See Talk:Operation_Olive_Branch#Requested_move_31_December_2024, someone already attempted to blank out Afrin to do the redirect. Would like more eyes on this to confirm what right action is. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:53, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

@Bluethricecreamman: This redirect was removed by a blocked user (see talk page), also the content is 90% the same with an older revision of this article. It's basically the same offensive. Beshogur (talk) 16:04, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Changed it to "offensive". Beshogur (talk) 16:16, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

There is no consensus here to change it. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:51, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

There is no consensus on invasion as well. Invasion is POV, if you find operation POV as well, offensive is the most NPOV term here. Beshogur (talk) 23:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Beshogur, do not make tendentious edits. We've discussed this at length and everyone else disagrees with you. You've tried a bit of forum shopping by coming here, but still can't get other people to agree with you. Don't start an edit war over this. Bondegezou (talk) 11:10, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

• There is nothing wrong with "operation", but Turkish forces did invade the territory. Hence, I do not see a significant POV issue. Of course one could also call it an "incursion". My very best wishes (talk) 03:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

"Muslim grooming gangs" again

• Child sexual abuse in the United Kingdom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Halifax child sex abuse ring (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Manchester child sex abuse ring (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Newcastle sex abuse ring (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Oxford child sex abuse ring (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Peterborough sex abuse case (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Rochdale child sex abuse ring (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Telford child sexual exploitation scandal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Aylesbury child sex abuse ring (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Banbury child sex abuse ring (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Bristol child sex abuse ring (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Derby child sex abuse ring (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Huddersfield sex abuse ring (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

There was previously a consensus to merge Grooming gang moral panic in the United Kingdom into Child sexual abuse in the United Kingdom a few months ago, which I carried out. About two weeks ago a user edited the article, which sought again to push the "Muslim/Asian grooming gang" narrative. It would be good for people to keep an eye on the "Child sexual abuse in the United Kingdom" page to make sure it fairly covers the topic, since further disruption is likely given Elon Musk's recent involvement in the topic. Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:59, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

There's been an uptick of IP/SPA activity trying to push the Asian grooming gang" narrative in several articles related to the individual grooming rings in recent days, like the Oxford child sex abuse ring, Huddersfield grooming gang, Derby child sex abuse ring and Halifax child sex abuse ring, seeming to correspond to a massive rise in views. Further vigilance is needed. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Also looking at several articles of the individual child sexual abuse rings (e.g Oxford child sex abuse ring), they give lists of the names of the convicted. Is this a DUE/BLP issue? Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:17, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

yeah wtf that's def WP:BLPCRIME issue... honestly also WP:NOTDB issue too Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:54, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

they were convicted, so we can mention them. Arguably question is if its due to include names like this, or if it looks too much like WP:DB Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:58, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Most of the disruption today has been on the Huddersfield sex abuse ring article, where IPs and SPAs have been variously changing the lead sentence to describe the gang as "Muslim/Pakistani" contrary to reliable sources (who generally describe it as "Asian") as well as adding unsourced commentary. Further eyes on this particular article would be appreciated. 22:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion at COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory about inclusion of anti-Chinese racism in lead

Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#Should_we_mention_in_the_lead_the_"increased_anti-Chinese_racism." Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:31, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Sarfaraz K. Niazi

Sarfaraz K. Niazi is full of what I would consider to be promotional and non-neutral content. I have tried to clean it up, but @CarlWesolowski has been reverting my edits and claiming on my talk page that I'm the one breaching NPOV by cleaning it up. I'm bringing this here to get another opinion. Jay8g 20:07, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree that the content you removed tended to be promotional and POV, and that it should have been removed. Personally, I would have gone further, removing statements like He has published multiple books...on the subject and peer-reviewed research papers... cited to sources by Niazi. They're already listed on the subject's website. If they're important enough to mention in an encyclopedia, then we should let reliable, independent, secondary sources mention them—and we can cite those secondary sources. I also see a press release used as a source, and plenty of medical claims that appear to be citing non-WP:MEDRS sources. Woodroar (talk) 20:50, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Agree with Woodroar and Jay8g. Bondegezou (talk) 09:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

S. Niazi appears to be prolific. For example, using Google scholar for "sarfaraz niazi profile" lists 623 entries, whereas mine only has 53 entries, and I am at around the 90% for publications (ResearchGate). I have a problem with the way you classify reliability for medical papers. For example, a lot of mine are methods papers backed up by mathematical proofs. That I would consider better evidence than any double blind crossover study because the latter can only answer questions like "Is pain relief from a drug dose more effective than pain relief from 1/2 that dosage." Said otherwise, all a double blind crossover study can do is give a binary answer, or worse, yes/no/maybe. Moreover, double blind crossover studies are very expensive and are used to prevent solid theoretical questions with definitive science from interfering with the clout that only monied firms with one billion dollars per drug can offer. Gone are the days when a single medical doctor can abandon his strictly scientific principles in order to save lives, although fictional, the novel Arrowsmith explains how things used to be. Currently, we let people die rather than use common sense. Now consider what you are doing by following the influence of monied interests even when, and it is uncomfortably frequent, that influence is perverted. One other thing I do is write and review guidelines, which is what I should be doing rather than waste my time trying to convince you of anything. IMHO guidelines are very useful to present authoritarian views that can then be cited as being foolish, I have little other use for them. So, whilst you "paint by numbers" with your silly classifications, please allow that such pictures are not art. Now, to set things back to where they ought to be, you have to allow reasonable criticism and the FDA paragraphs in the S. Niazi presentation was an attempt to begin, without billions of dollars in conflicted interests greasing palms, to do that. Decide now just how much you risk going to a doctor who paints by numbers rather than take enough time to figure out how to cure you, and yes, finding a doctor who will go to any length to advocate for his patients is becoming vanishingly rare. You cannot imagine just how difficult that role has become, I can, because I have at times taken my career in my hands to do that. So, choose what is the right thing to do, or, join those who have no common sense. My experience with Misplaced Pages has leaves me cold, the convoluted tissue of lies and deceit is distinctly off-putting. What are you asking for, a double blind study on whether the FDA should be reorganized? A review paper funded by the FDA on whether it should be reorganized? Where is your common sense? I ask you to remove what you consider excessive language leading to the impression of NPOV, but not delete it wholesale. For my own part, I will continue to advocate for patients. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CarlWesolowski (talk • contribs) 23:41, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

If we're going to be using insulting words like silly to characterize other editors' judgments ("your silly classifications"), then I'd say that the claim that mathematical proofs have anything to do with reliability of medical papers ("a lot of mine are methods papers backed up by mathematical proofs") to be the silliest statement I've seen on a Misplaced Pages talk-page in years. NightHeron (talk) 08:46, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Dose response, if organized as a mathematical function with confidence intervals has an infinite number of possible answers and would be an organized method of presenting dose response. Compare that to the result of a binary comparison of Dose A versus Dose B in a double blind crossover trial wherein there is no guarantee that either A or B has any effect, nor any guarantee that either dose is nonlethal. In the first case, it is easier to identify optimal dosing, in the second case, you still would not know, but it would be more likely than not that neither dose is optimal. Why do you resist reducing medicine to physical law? You are entitled to your opinion, but please do not think that the attempt to sort out how the body works, how it scales, the mechanics of drug effect, and all of the extensive scientific literature on that subject is "the silliest statement I've seen on a Misplaced Pages talk page in years." Misplaced Pages is filled with many moments of pure insanity, so why you would choose to pick on my calling something outrageous as merely "silly" is beyond me. CarlWesolowski (talk) 00:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The word "proof" has a well-defined meaning in mathematics, namely, a rigorous, irrefutable argument demonstrating beyond any doubt that a certain mathematical statement is correct (e.g., "a proof of the Pythagorean theorem"). It does not mean using statistical techniques to get support for a claim or evidence of a possible effect. NightHeron (talk) 01:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

MRAsians

I don't know if this is the best place for this but some more eyes on MRAsians might be good. The article was created in April but today seems to be getting a lot of attention from an associated subreddit and subsequent influx of editors here disputing it's POV. I've reverted to the stable version as it looks to be sourced, but I'm not 100% about that, particularly with only five sources. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I put in a request to WP:RFPP to increase page protection while its contentious. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Imran Khan

Withdrawn for now: There has been an ongoing effort to turn Imran Khan into a WP:FANPAGE for quite some time. While I have been trying to address this issue, I would appreciate assistance from volunteer editors on this forum, as no one is infallible, and I could be mistaken as well. Recently, an editor created a summary section (Talk:Imran Khan#Summary of Premiership) that, in my view, excludes any criticism or negative aspects of his premiership and is focused solely on achievements and praise. Could someone review the discussion in that thread, along with the Premiership of Imran Khan article and the content in the current section (Imran Khan#Prime Minister (2018–2022)), to help ensure that the proposed summary is more balanced and neutral? Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 23:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Comment: While a discussion is opened at this noticeboard about this BLP, I have concerns over the Imran Khan#Controversies section which OP has been told not to create per WP:CSECTION in the past, but has created nevertheless. I have proposed it to be merged into the rest of the article in the past and given due weight, which multiple editors have supported but they have opposed it. Please can someone familiar with these NPOV policies review the amount of weight being given to controversies and if this famous politician and former Prime Minister requires an independent section for controversies. Thank you. Titan2456 (talk) 00:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I have temporarily withdrawn my request since I have another ongoing dispute about the same article at DRN, and Rule D there requires avoiding multiple discussions about the same article across different forums. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 01:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Vladimir Bukovsky

There is a disagreement between myself and another editor on how to describe the child pornography charges against a Soviet-era dissident. I humbly request your input. Thanks – Anne drew (talk · contribs) 00:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

2024 United States presidential election

Multiple editors have raised concerns over NPOV on 2024 United States presidential election I will list here some of there concerns and WP policy related to them.

1. Trump is talked about way more then Harris to the point that almost only he about him. My suggestion here is to add more about Harris or remove/shorten some of things about Trump. The article also is having size issues so this would help fix those.
2. The article does not follow WP:WORDS when talking about Trump. As it often says Trump claimed... which needs to corrected to follow WP:WORDS.
3. It hardly every talks about the election from a Republican view point. Which per WP:NPOV should be included as it is at least a large minority view point.

This is not a complete list of things that have been discussed on talk:2024 United States presidential election.

At this current point there has been an attempt to put a notice on the article about NPOV issues, but has been reverted. There have been multiple discussions about NPOV on its talk page over the last few months. So since it kept coming up and did not appear to be getting resolved I decided to bring it here.

Thank you for taking the time to look at this. User Page Talk Contributions Sheriff U3 21:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

On point 3, you are arguing for an equal balance which is not what NPOV says. We look to present a neutral point of view based on what reliable sources say, and the largest problem is that most sources that would report on the Republican view are not reliable (eg sites like Fox News). We don't create a false balance if the support isn't there in RSes. — Masem (t) 22:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Another factor… over the last few years, Trump dominated the news (either to extol his virtues or condemn his flaws, depending on the outlet)… the simple fact is that the Media didn’t discuss Harris to the extent that they discussed Trump. This imbalance in coverage by the media impacts our own coverage. Blueboar (talk) 22:19, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Harris was only a candidate from July 2024 on, Trump declared his candidacy in November 2022. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

@Masem Let me quote what WP:NPOV says:

"Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views. For example, the article on the Earth does not directly mention modern support for the flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct (and minuscule) minority; to do so would give undue weight to it."

Also see Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Writing_for_the_opponent as it talks more about this.

@Blueboar Correct but there is almost nothing on Harris, just read the article and you will see what I mean. So we may have to do more digging then with Trump.

@Muboshgu Can you describe your comment more? User Page Talk Contributions Sheriff U3 22:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Much digital ink was spilled on Trump's candidacy starting in November 2022. Then it was "Biden vs. Trump" until Biden dropped out. Of course the media talked less about Harris' candidacy, and trying to even out the page between Trump and Harris would be a WP:FALSEBALANCE. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok I see what you mean there, and agree with you on that point. The main issue that I saw was on Point 2, as WP:WORDS clearly states that such words should avoided/not used. User Page Talk Contributions Sheriff U3 16:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

That being said, I do think the page needs some rewriting. Some things, like January 6 and Trump's criminal trials, ended up not mattering nearly as much as our page gives them weight. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Key in what you quoted is "in reliable sources". The bulk of sourcing for the GOP viewpoint on the election cones from unreliable sources. Hence we already have our hands tied. Yes, we should try to include what RSes did say, but per Due, the weight of coverage is based on the predominance of viewpoints as published in RSes. Anything else is creating a false balance. — Masem (t) 22:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

It usually takes a few years before American politics articles are no longer closely watched by people who want to show how awful the other side is (whether they be Trumpist trolls or #Resistance trolls). And it's around then that we get proper retrospective sourcing which can then be used to indicate balance. I agree that someone should go through and fix any WTW issues, but besides that I don't have much hope that it's going to give a proper overview of the topic any time soon and don't see a point in maintenance tags if there isn't an identifiable, fixable issue. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with Muboshgu's comment above - the article currently contains a lot of information about things that didn't end up being as important as they're made out to be. I do think that it's fair for the article to talk about Trump more often, simply by nature of there being more to say about him, and it's also fine to give fair weight to his enduring controversies in the context of their impact on the election.

I'm in favor of adding the WP:NPOVD template to the article because 1) the issue has been brought up multiple times and continues to be brought up, and 2) as long as editors are engaged in a discussion regarding the disputed neutrality of the article, like we are right now, there should be a notification stating that fact on the article - which would also help encourage other editors to offer their input.

Thebiguglyalien I almost entirely agree with you here but I'm genuinely curious - is there some sort of unspoken "time limit" for how long a NPOVD tag should be on an article? I feel like I've seen them stay up for a pretty long time before but I could be wrong. To be honest it was one of the things that originally got me interested in editing, after seeing the notification at the top of a page and starting to go down the talk page rabbit hole. Big Thumpus (talk) 03:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Generally they're supposed to stay up while discussion takes place, but in practice they can hang around longer. On a wider point, this sort of article I would expect to always have some sort of balance or weight issue. That is, an article that was an upcoming or current event turning into a past event. It has the issues of being written while in the news, which means a lot of coverage of perhaps minor or trivial points, combined with being shortly in the past which means being reformatted into a new style while maintaining all these hangovers from the upcoming/current event style. As TBUA says, it takes awhile for things to settle down source-wise. CMD (talk) 03:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

NPOV doesnt mean equal balance. It means fair balance to both parties, according to reliable sources. The article is pretty neutral with that EarthDude (talk) 04:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Oldham Council

At Oldham Council there is a dispute about how content regarding a child sex abuse investigation by the council (related to the "grooming gangs" post above) should be handled. Outside input would be appreciated. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

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