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	==Archives==
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	==question for Marx scholars ==
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	''(question asked on ] by 212.9.13.102 (02:07, 20 Mar 2004))''
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	would appreciate help to track down a comment Marx made in Capital where he said there comes a point beyond which the further politizisation of money becomes redundant. could really use this for an essay, but need to be able to reference it. can you pin-point it in Capital?
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	==Marx and Anti-Semitism==
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	Anything on Marx and Anti-Semitism should also make reference to the arguments made in
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	:As I read it, the article argues against labeling Marx an anti-Semite. I think the key question is, has any serious historian been able to sustain the charge of anti-Semitism? If not, I don't know that it is even worth discussing in the article. If you disagree, AH, and want to include a precis of Draper and McLellan's points, I certainly won't object, ]
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	:: I had added something earlier, but it was removed. I was going to add this at a later date when I had some time but I have been distracted. To see more on charges of Marx's anti-semitsm read Marx's "The Jewish Quesiton". http://csf.colorado.edu/psn/marx/Archive/1844-JQ/ ] 01:52, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
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	:I took it out, and explained why -- what you added were quotes out of context, with a misleading interpretation -- not at all what I say above, which is an invitation to include a resme of scholarly review on the matter. Your link simply goes to Marx's essays on the Jewish question -- which I have studied. It is a deconstruction of the Western discourse on "emancipation" and it is not anti-Semitic. ]
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			== House in Trier, Germany, where Marx spent his childhood and youth ==

			], the father of Karl Marx, bought the small mansard roof building in ]´s Simeonstrasse in 1819 <ref>{{cite book \|last1=Longuet \|first1=Robert-Jean \|title=Karl Marx mein Urgroßvater \|date=1977 \|location=Berlin \|page=16}}</ref> when Karl was only one year old. The later socialist grew up here with his parents and five siblings and moved out aged 17 after his graduation from secondary school (Gymnasium). Yet as a grown up man, he returned to Trier several times to visit his relatives.
	Well, some might argue otherwise. I would also counter that the quotes were not out of contex considering the tone of the article, plus he had also written about the Jewery in several other pieces. Marx also had some shitty things to say about the Slavs. ] 02:10, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
			Compared to today, little has changed in the historical city center of Trier: The main characteristics of the old town around the market place have been preserved and looked more or less the same back in the days when Karl Marx lived there <ref>{{cite book \|last1=Neffe \|first1=Jürgen \|title=Marx der Unvollendete \|date=2017 \|publisher=Bertelsmann \|isbn=ISBN-13 978-3570102732 \|page=41}}</ref>. In particular the neighbourhood of the house to the Trier's most famous landmark, the Roman city gate ], is still impressive. In most parts unchanged to this day, it is likely that Karl Marx took the very same route to school every day that tourists can walk today <ref>{{cite book \|last1=Monz \|first1=Heinz \|date=1964 \|location=Trier \|page=164}}</ref>.
			The house in Simeonstraße had a lasting impact on Karl Marx, especially since he had been educated here in home schooling until the age of 12 <ref>{{cite book \|last1=Baumeister \|first1=Jens \|title=Wie der Wein Karl Marx zum Kommunisten machte: Ein Kommunist als Streiter für die Moselwinzer \|date=2017 \|location=Trier \|isbn=ISBN 978-3000564710 \|page=32}}</ref>.
			As an adult, Karl Marx returned to live with his family in this house during his visits several times. For example in 1841 after his doctoral studies in Berlin, Marx travelled back to Trier. The main reason for his return home was to be close to his long-term fiancée ]. Also in the following year, 1842, Karl Marx spent some months in the house in Simeonstraße 8 (then Simeongasse 1040) in order to take care of family matters <ref>{{cite book \|last1=Longuet \|first1=Robert-Jean \|title=Karl Marx mein Urgroßvater \|date=1977 \|location=Berlin \|page=52}}</ref>.

			Location of the house
	Marx ''was'' a Jew... ] 02:10, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
			The former home of Karl Marx in Simeonstraße 8 (then Simeongasse 1040) looks rather unremarkable at the beginning of Trier's shopping promenade close to the famous Porta Nigra. Only a few minutes walk leads visitors to the bronze statue of Karl Marx by ] – a present from the People's Republic of China to Trier.

			{{reflist-talk}}
	Oh my God, I had absolutely no idea that Marx was a jew, with that Irish soundin name en all!! Well then, I suppose there is ''no way'' he could be anti-semetic then could he. ] 02:41, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 19 March 2024 ==
	Well, the burden of proof should be higher to "prove" that a Jew is an anti-semite, shouldn't it? And "Marx" is certainly not an especially jewish name - it is a German name. ] was a Catholic politician in Weimar Germany, for instance. ] 02:43, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

			{{edit semi-protected\|Karl Marx\|answered=yes}}
	Hmmm......
			Moses Mordecai Levi, otherwise known as Karl Heinrich Marx (May 5, 1818-March 14, 1883) was a German-Jewish philosopher, economist, historian, revolutionary, and journalist from Trier, Germany. ] (]) 12:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
			:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> <br />— ]<sup></nowiki>]]</nowiki>]]</sup> ⋮ 13:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
			:I am not finding any reliable sources on this. The only ones I found were articles using his Jewish identity to attack him. Here is one very biased article that mentions Moses mordecai Levi https://www.news24.com/news24/karl-marx-and-his-hateful-dream-of-atheism-20120913
			:There is also a random reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/karlmarx/comments/riufhh/was_karl_marx_his_birth_name/
			:The only potentially legitimate source I found is where it says his paternal grandfather's name was Mordechai Levi
			:All the other sources are baseless conspiracy theories connecting him to the Rothschilds.
			:Please present reliable sources before starting a topic on talk pages. ] (]) 21:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

			== Critiques of Marx as a person. ==
	''What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.''

			Little to nothing about the personal character or contradictions of Marx as a human being. Seems one sided. Not looking for character assassination but a more balanced view. ] (]) 21:48, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	But after all, he is Jewish and after all, there is no way that a Jew could be anti-semetic ......... ] , ], ]] 02:50, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

			:Any suggestions on what to add? Please elaborate a bit more ] (]) 21:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

			== Did Marx's parents convert to escape persecution, as many Jews did, or did they sincerely practice Christianity? ==
	Hmmmm....... am I on to a trend here? Are all anti-semeitc Jews also Marxists?

			Asking here because this is not mentioned at all in the article and I'm wondering if it's applicable ] (]) 12:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
	Hmmmm....... interesting ............ very interesting ] 02:52, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

			:Marx's family were not very religious Jews. After they converted, they were not very religious Christians either. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 12:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

			:Heinrich Michael in Karl Marx and the Birth of Modern Society goes in detail why Heinrich Marx converted in chapter Karl's Marx Parents. Basically Heinrich converted so he could keep he's job as a lawyer. ] (]) 18:54, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
	Again, you're taking stuff out of context. Marx was certainly opposed to the Jewish ''religion'' because he was opposed to ''all'' religion. But beyond this, I think this is a ridiculous argument. As to Finkelstein and Chomsky, I think it's arguable that they are anti-semites, but, again, one should have pretty solid backing to make such a claim. I'm fairly certain we havan't reached that level with Marx. (BTW, my Irish-sounding name does hide the fact that I'm Jewish), ] 02:53, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	Like when Marx called Ferdinand Lassalle a "Juden Itzig , in a personal letter he wrote to Engles. No anti-semitism here. Marxist have been trying to explain that little diddy for years. After all, if I called someon a Jew Nigger, leftists would be falling over each other to creatively interprite my remarks to let me off the hook. ] 03:01, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	:Perhaps he meant it disparagingly in a general sense without intending a specifically anti-Semetic connotation, in a way analogous to how modern gangsta rappers will describe their enemies as "no-good niggers" or some such. Does this mean that black gangsta rappers are themselves all a bunch of anti-black racists because they call people 'nigger' in a bad way? Hardly. It's important not to read too much into things. ] 09:04, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	Kwerti, as I have said to others -- just ignore TDC. You can't have an intelligent discussion with him. He has never responded in a serious way to anyone's comments here or on other pages. I tell him he takes quotes out of context, and he says "no I don't" and procedes to provide quotes with no context. He simply doesn't know what context is and doesn't care. He says one can interpret the quote as anti-semitic, AH provided an article explaining why it isn't, and then TDC suggests the article supports his point. He doesn't even know how to ''read'' historical analysis. Don't bother feeding trolls. ]

	What AH did was provide me an article which was nothing more than a blubbering apology for Marx. And while I may not know how to properly read and comprehend revisionist historical analysis, I have no problem reading and comprehending.

	How am I taking Marx’s words out of context. The standard argument exonerating Marx’s “The Jewish Question” is that Marx is calling for the end of the Jewish class.
	:No, that is not the standard argument.
	This, as the argument goes, is in line with Marx’s principal of class elimination and emancipation in general. This argument holds about as much water as a fishing net. Had Marx simply stated that Jews must “emancipated” be for the same reason that Christians or Lutherans (or whatever), the charges of anti-Semitism would not be all that serious.
	:Had Marx made such an argument he simply would have been agreeing with Bauer; but he is critiquing Bauer's assumptions about freedom and emancipation.

	But Marx makes the same allegations against Jews that all anti-semites do.
	:No, he is invoking the allegations anti-Semites make, in order to critique them.

	::Are we reading the same thing? Seriously? ] 20:20, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	His continual emphasis on the atypical, hook nosed, money grubbing, huckstering Jew is the type of stereotype that is the bedrock found in all anti-Semitism though. Can anyone here honestly say that Marx is not painting Jews with the same money grubbing, gold fiending brush that ] does? If you accept that Marx was correct about the need for Jewish “emancipation”

	:No, Marx is not arguing for Jewish emancipation. Not is he arguing that Jews should not be emancipated. Either view misses the point of the argument.
	then was Marx also correct when describing what the wordy religion and worldly god of the Jews was?

	''What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money''

	Marx never wrote anything attacking other races or peoples comparable to his attacks on the Jews, except the Slavs perhaps.

	If the world's Marxists would turn around and plunge their heads into the legacy of what they've wrought in trying to create a better world, they would instantly drown in an ocean of blood.] 18:56, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	I will ask you once again: Was Marx correct when describing what the wordy religion and worldly god of the Jews was?

	''What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money''

	Dont refer me to some washed up brain dead commie zombie from Berkley , just answer the question. ] 20:20, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
	:When Marx uses the word "Jew," he is not using it literally and is not refering to actual Jews, living or dead, nor is he referring to Judaism meaning the beliefs and practices of actual Jews. You misunderstand the text. Yes, we are reading the same document -- it is just that you do not know how to read. ]

	:How silly of me! When Marx said ''Jew'' he must have meant what ……. dog, apricot, sissors, purple monkey dishwasher?

	:So Marx must be applying the term ''Jew'' to all mid 18th century purple monkey dishwashers and berating them with themes and charges oddly reminiscent in both tone and content to those applied to "Jew" (those actually of judeo-semetic ancestry as opposed to their doppelgangers in the purple monkey dishwasher community) for the past 1500 years.

	Since in civil society the real nature of the Jew has been universally

	realized and secularized, civil society could not convince the Jew of the

	unreality of his religious nature, which is indeed only the ideal aspect of

	practical need. Consequently, not only in the Pentateuch and the Talmud, but

	in present-day society we find the nature of the modern Jew, and not as an

	abstract nature but as one that is in the highest degree empirical, not

	merely as a narrowness of the Jew, but as the Jewish narrowness of society.

	:And I’ll be God damned if those purple monkey dishwashers don’t read the Pentateuch and the Talmud just like those Jews of judeo-semetic ancestry. With all the similarities between the two groups, it amazes me that Marx could differentiate between the two.

	''Money is the jealous god of Israel

	:And I am the one misunderstanding the text?

	: Are you a professional contortionist, because I have never seen someone try and twist something like that since the last time I went to the circus. I went to the circus. ] 22:16, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	:"And I am the one misunderstanding the text?"

	Yes. First of all ''The Jewish Question'' was an early work by Marx written before he had developed the theory of historical materialism, if you like it was written before Marx became "a Marxist". Many of the formulations in it are crude, and backward and influenced by the context of the time. However, you have to read the work in the context of Bruno Bauer's work which it is a reply to. Bauer argues ''against'' the emancipation of the Jews. Marx is arguing in favour so he is actually polemicising against anti-Semitism.

	Moreover, as Hal Draper argues in

	:There is a bulky output of literature alleging that Marx’s essay On the Jewish Question is anti-Semitic because it equates Jewry with the spirit of money-making, the merchant-huckster, preoccupation with self-interest and egoism-that is, with the commercialism of the new bourgeois order. The charge has been furthered in various ways, including forgery: one honest critic renamed the essay A World Without Jews as if this were Marx’s title. Few discussions of the essay explain clearly its political purpose and content in connection with the Jewish emancipation question, or even accurately present the views of its target, Bauer. Mainly, the allegation is supported by reading the attitudes of the second half of the twentieth century back into the language of the 1840s. More than that, it is supported only if the whole course of German and European anti-Jewish sentiment is whitewashed, so as to make Marx’s essay stand out as a black spot. This note will take up only the 1843 essay and its background.

	:The general method was memorably illustrated in C.B. Kelland’s 1936 novel Mr. Deeds Goes to Town, which some may know as a Gary Cooper film. In an attempt to have a hearing declare Mr. Deeds of unsound mind, two little old ladies are brought in from his home town to testify. It’s well known, one explains, that he is pixillated – balmy in the head. The honest woman’s evidence seems damning. But the case blows up later when she is asked one more question: “Who else in your town is pixillated?” She answers: “Why, everybody!”

	:As soon as the question is raised, it is not difficult or even controversial to show that virtually the entire population of Germany (and the rest of Europe, too) was pixillated-that is, habitually used and accepted the words Jew and Jewry in the manner of Marx’s essay whether they were favorable to the Jews’ cause or not, whether they were anti-Semitic or not, whether they were Jews or not. In this they were only following the very old, if now discredited, practice of using national and ethnic names as epithets, usually derogatory, for people showing a trait supposedly characteristic of the nation or ethnic group. This practice, which began to be suppressed in self-consciously polite society only a few decades ago, was as common in English as in any other language, and some of it still hangs on. Consider a few: wild Indian (active child), apache (Paris criminal), Hottentot (as in Hottentot morality), street arab, gypsy, bohemian, Cossack, blackamoor, Turk; or, as an adjective: Dutch courage, Mexican general, French leave. Another of this group, for centuries, has been Jew.
	(...)
	:Marx’s essay represents a very attenuated form of the general pattern, for most commonly Jew was a synonym for usurer, whereas by this time mere money-making was eminently respectable. Bauer’s writing assumed that Jew meant usurer – quite in passing, for he was not interested in the economic Jew but in the “Sabbath Jew”. The same economic stereotype of the Jew can be found in Arnold Ruge , who remained a liberal and never became a communist, as well as in Max Stirner , whose book The Ego and Its Own heralded anarchism. These names already cover the spectrum of the Young Hegelian milieu, whose philosophic mentor Feuerbach provided the immediate example for this language about the role of Jewry.

	:A special case, near if not in the Young Hegelian tendency, was Moses Hess: conscientiously Jewish himself, Hess had been brought up in an orthodox household and later became the progenitor of Zionism. It is well known that the language of Marx’s Part II of On the Jewish Question followed the view of the Jews’ role given in an essay On the Money System just written by none other than Hess, and just read by Marx.

	:Hess’s thesis was that present-day society was a “huckster world”, a “social animal-world”, in which people become fully developed “egoists”, beasts of prey and bloodsuckers. “The Jews”, wrote the father of Zionism, “who in the natural history of the social animal-world had the world-historic mission of developing the beast of prey out of humanity have now finally completed their mission’s work.” It was in the “Judeo-Christian huckster world” that “the mystery of the blood of Christ, like the mystery of the ancient Jewish blood-worship, finally appears quite unmasked as the mystery of the beast of prey.” There is more verbiage, going back to the “blood-cult” of ancient Judaism as the prototype of modern society, and on to a condemnation of priests as the “hyenas of the social animal-world” who are as bad as the other animal-people by virtue of their “common quality as beasts of prey, as bloodsuckers, as Jews, as financial wolves”.

	:Earlier in 1843 Hess had published an important article on The Philosophy of Action, which only incidentally remarked that “The Christian God is an imitation of the Jewish Moloch-Jehovah, to whom the first-born were sacrificed to ‘propitiate’ him, and whom the juste-milieu age of Jewry bought off with money ...” Hess intended no special anti-Jewish animus in any of this stuff, compared to which Marx’s approach is complimentary and drily economic. Note that Judaism is criticized as part of the Judeo-Christian complex, and not in order to praise Christianity – this being the same pattern as Voltaire’s; although Hess saw no contradiction between his own continued Jewish faith and loyalties and his opinion, expounded in his writings, that Christianity was the more advanced, modern and “pure” religion – all in the Feuerbachian groove.


	So if you're going to argue Marx was anti-Semitic you'll have to argue that ] was anti-Semitic as well - guess that would mean ] too is anti-Semitic since Hess' book "Rome and Jerusalem; The Last National Question" was the first modern work (1862) to advocate Zionism, predated Herzl's Judenstaat by several decades and definitely influenced Herzl.

	Incidentally, since you're so interested in demonstrating the Marxist and socialist origins of modern ideologies perhaps you'd like to add something to the ] article on its socialist and even Marxist origins (after all,Hess and Marx were close associates and Marx definitely had an influence on Hess) or do you only like to argue that ideas you disagree with have a socialist influence? ;)
	]

	:Well Andy that is one hell of a shitty argument.

	First of all The Jewish Question was an early work by Marx written before he had developed the theory of historical materialism, if you like it was written before Marx became "a Marxist".

	: Meaningless, unless you are implying that since it was written when marx was young and therefore is not representative of Marxism, it still does not mitigae the anit semitism charges.] 05:22, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	Many of the formulations in it are crude, and backward and influenced by the context of the time.

	: Once agian, meaningless. Crude is blunderbuss when measured up against my remington 1100. The only thing crude is the anti-semitism.] 05:22, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	However, you have to read the work in the context of Bruno Bauer's work which it is a reply to.

	Bauer argues against the emancipation of the Jews. Marx is arguing in favour so he is actually polemicising against anti-Semitism.

	:Marx is arguing for conditional emancipation of Jews. He still paints the Jews as hook nosed devils, but offers them salvation through the rejection of capitalism and thier Jewishness. He also sees Jewish emancipation as the lynchpin of all emanciation, because the Jew is the root of all capitalism.

	From the outset, the Christian was the theorizing Jew, the Jew is,
	therefore, the practical Christian, and the practical Christian has become a Jew again.

	The emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Judaism.

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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

House in Trier, Germany, where Marx spent his childhood and youth

Heinrich Marx, the father of Karl Marx, bought the small mansard roof building in Trier´s Simeonstrasse in 1819 when Karl was only one year old. The later socialist grew up here with his parents and five siblings and moved out aged 17 after his graduation from secondary school (Gymnasium). Yet as a grown up man, he returned to Trier several times to visit his relatives. Compared to today, little has changed in the historical city center of Trier: The main characteristics of the old town around the market place have been preserved and looked more or less the same back in the days when Karl Marx lived there . In particular the neighbourhood of the house to the Trier's most famous landmark, the Roman city gate Porta Nigra, is still impressive. In most parts unchanged to this day, it is likely that Karl Marx took the very same route to school every day that tourists can walk today . The house in Simeonstraße had a lasting impact on Karl Marx, especially since he had been educated here in home schooling until the age of 12 . As an adult, Karl Marx returned to live with his family in this house during his visits several times. For example in 1841 after his doctoral studies in Berlin, Marx travelled back to Trier. The main reason for his return home was to be close to his long-term fiancée Jenny von Westphalen. Also in the following year, 1842, Karl Marx spent some months in the house in Simeonstraße 8 (then Simeongasse 1040) in order to take care of family matters .

Location of the house The former home of Karl Marx in Simeonstraße 8 (then Simeongasse 1040) looks rather unremarkable at the beginning of Trier's shopping promenade close to the famous Porta Nigra. Only a few minutes walk leads visitors to the bronze statue of Karl Marx by Wu Weishan – a present from the People's Republic of China to Trier.

References

Longuet, Robert-Jean (1977). Karl Marx mein Urgroßvater. Berlin. p. 16.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)
Neffe, Jürgen (2017). Marx der Unvollendete. Bertelsmann. p. 41. ISBN ISBN-13 978-3570102732. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help)
Monz, Heinz (1964). Trier. p. 164. {{cite book}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)
Baumeister, Jens (2017). Wie der Wein Karl Marx zum Kommunisten machte: Ein Kommunist als Streiter für die Moselwinzer. Trier. p. 32. ISBN ISBN 978-3000564710. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)
Longuet, Robert-Jean (1977). Karl Marx mein Urgroßvater. Berlin. p. 52.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 March 2024

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Moses Mordecai Levi, otherwise known as Karl Heinrich Marx (May 5, 1818-March 14, 1883) was a German-Jewish philosopher, economist, historian, revolutionary, and journalist from Trier, Germany. Prism Steno Book (talk) 12:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.
— Urro ⋮ 13:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I am not finding any reliable sources on this. The only ones I found were articles using his Jewish identity to attack him. Here is one very biased article that mentions Moses mordecai Levi https://www.news24.com/news24/karl-marx-and-his-hateful-dream-of-atheism-20120913

There is also a random reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/karlmarx/comments/riufhh/was_karl_marx_his_birth_name/

The only potentially legitimate source I found is this one where it says his paternal grandfather's name was Mordechai Levi

All the other sources are baseless conspiracy theories connecting him to the Rothschilds.

Please present reliable sources before starting a topic on talk pages. Frankserafini87 (talk) 21:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Critiques of Marx as a person.

Little to nothing about the personal character or contradictions of Marx as a human being. Seems one sided. Not looking for character assassination but a more balanced view. Redonefifty (talk) 21:48, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Any suggestions on what to add? Please elaborate a bit more Frankserafini87 (talk) 21:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Did Marx's parents convert to escape persecution, as many Jews did, or did they sincerely practice Christianity?

Asking here because this is not mentioned at all in the article and I'm wondering if it's applicable JohnR1Roberts (talk) 12:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Marx's family were not very religious Jews. After they converted, they were not very religious Christians either. Remsense ‥ 论 12:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Heinrich Michael in Karl Marx and the Birth of Modern Society goes in detail why Heinrich Marx converted in chapter Karl's Marx Parents. Basically Heinrich converted so he could keep he's job as a lawyer. Darmato (talk) 18:54, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

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