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Revision as of 21:29, 30 July 2009 edit24.54.202.242 (talk)No edit summary← Previous edit Latest revision as of 16:40, 14 December 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,301,984 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Tennis/Archive 21) (bot 
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== 1000 title leaders charts ==
== Use of the Terminology ATP Titles ==
I have been testing new versions in "Title leader" in ] to distinguish the active events from defunct. See below the original and 3 versions. Which one do you vote for?
On some player pages, such as that of ], the total number of ATP titles includes Challenger and Future level titles. In official ATP statistics, contained both on their website and in other sources, the term ATP Titles is reserved for titles won at the ATP World Tour 250, 500, 1000, and Grand Slam levels and excludes Challengers and Futures. So, the incorrect heading of ATP Titles could be changed to "professional titles" to make the tally correct. Or, there could be a new heading made for ATP level and one for lower-level events. Notice how on pages of more accomplished players, such as Andy Roddick, the lower-level titles are not listed. This issue should be standardized. ] (]) 19:23, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


I plan to implement this new design to the other 3 related articles once a consensus is reached:
== Sharapova GAR ==


1. ]
I have nominated ] for Good Article Reassessment. Please feel free to add comments ] ‎or, better still, improve the article. Also, you can review my comments and concerns ]
:Any other GA possibles? -- ] (]) 04:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
:: I would have to say that I do agree with you this article needs to be raised to good article or Class A at the least! ]] 23:24, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


2. ] and
== ] keeps doing the same with anonymous IPs ==


3. ]. ] (]) 02:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
This time, he's using ]
=== Original (events not categorized by active/defunct) ===
{|
|-
! scope="col" style="width:13em" |
! scope="col" style="width:11em" |
! scope="col" style="width:10em" |
! scope="col" style="width:12em" |
! scope="col" style="width:11em" |
! scope="col" style="width:9em" |
|-
|'''Boc''' (Boca Raton) ||'''Dub''' (Dubai) ||'''Doh''' (Doha)||'''Ind''' (Indian Wells) ||'''Mia''' (Miami)||'''Cha''' (Charleston)
|-
|'''Mad''' (Madrid)||'''Ber''' (Berlin) ||'''Rom''' (Rome)||'''Can''' (Canada) ||'''San''' (San Diego)||'''Cin''' (Cincinnati)
|-
| '''Phi''' (Philadelphia)||'''Mos''' (Moscow) ||'''Tok''' (Tokyo)||'''Wuh''' (Wuhan) ||'''Zur''' (Zürich)||'''Bei''' (Beijing)
|}


<div class="covid19-container" role="region" tabindex="0">
I am tired of the "Key Biscane, Florida" instead of Miami, like it should be, so I'm going to take out the key biscane for all the articles related to the Miami master series. I know they're like a hundred or even more, but they are going to be changed, even with tennisexpert reverting continuously. ] (]) 16:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
<div style="overflow-x:auto">
{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}{{table alignment}}
{| class="wikitable sortable nowrap mw-datatable sort-under-center sticky-col1 defaultcenter col1left" style="font-size: 90%; margin:0"
|-class="sticky-row"
! scope="col" |Player
! scope="col" |Titles
! scope="col" | Boc
! scope="col" | Dub
! scope="col" | Doh
! scope="col" | Ind
! scope="col" | Mia
! scope="col" | Cha
! scope="col" | Mad
! scope="col" | Ber
! scope="col" | Rom
! scope="col" | Can
! scope="col" | San
! scope="col" | Cin
! scope="col" | Phi
! scope="col" | Mos
! scope="col" | Tok
! scope="col" | Wuh
! scope="col" | Zur
! scope="col" | Bei
! scope="col" class=unsortable|Years
|-
| {{sort|Williams.|{{flagicon|USA}} Serena Williams}}
|23
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>8</u>'''
|1
|2
| -
|'''<u>4</u>'''
|3
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|1999–2016
|-
| {{sort|Hingis.|{{flagicon|SUI}} Martina Hingis}}
|17
| - || - || -
|1
|2
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|1
|2
|2
| -
| -
| -
|1
|'''<u>5</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
|1997–2007
|-
| {{sort|Graf.|{{flagicon|GER}} Steffi Graf}}
|15
|'''<u>1</u>'''
| - || -
|1
|3
|1
| -
|'''<u>5</u>'''
| -
|2
| - || -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1990–1996
|-
| {{sort|Sharapova.|{{flagicon|RUS}} Maria Sharapova}}
|14
| -
| -
|1
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|1
| -
|3
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|1
| -
| -
|2
| -
|1
|1
|2005–2015
|-
| {{sort|Davenport.|{{flagicon|USA}} Lindsay Davenport}}
|11
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|4
| -
|'''<u>4</u>'''
| -
|1997–2005
|-
| {{sort|Henin.|{{flagicon|BEL}} Justine Henin}}
| rowspan="3" | 10
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|3
| -
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -
|2002–2007
|-
| {{sort|Azarenka.|{{flagicon|BLR}} Victoria Azarenka}}
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|3
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|2009–2020
|-
| {{sort|Świątek.|{{flagicon|POL}} Iga Świątek}}
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|1
| -
| 1
| -
|3
| -
| -
| -
| - || - || -
| -
| -
|1
|2021–2024
|-
| {{sort|Martínez.|{{flagicon|ESP}} Conchita Martínez}}
| rowspan="5" | 9
| -
| - || -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|2
|'''<u>4</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1993–2000
|-
| {{sort|Seles.|{{flagicon|USA}} Monica Seles}}
| -
| - || -
| -
|2
| -
| -
|1
|2
|'''<u>4</u>'''
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1990–2000
|-
| {{sort|Williams.|{{flagicon|USA}} Venus Williams}}
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|3
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|1
| -
|1998–2015
|-
| {{sort|Halep.|{{flagicon|ROU}} Simona Halep}}
| -
|1
|1
|1
| -
| -
|2
| -
|1
|3
| -
| -
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2014–2022
|-
| {{sort|Kvitová.|{{flagicon|CZE}} Petra Kvitová}}
| -
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
|'''<u>3</u>'''
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|2011–2023
|-
| {{sort|Clijsters.|{{flagicon|BEL}} Kim Clijsters}}
| rowspan="1" | 7
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|2
| -
| -
| -
|1
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2003–2010
|-
| {{sort|Sánchez Vicario.|{{flagicon|ESP}} Arantxa Sánchez Vicario}}
| rowspan="4" | 6
| -
| - || -
| -
|2
|1
| -
| -
|1
|2
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1992–1996
|-
| {{sort|Mauresmo.|{{flagicon|FRA}} Amélie Mauresmo}}
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
|2
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2001–2005
|-
| {{sort|Janković.|{{flagicon|SRB}} Jelena Janković}}
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2007–2010
|-
| {{sort|Wozniacki.|{{flagicon|DEN}} Caroline Wozniacki}}
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|2010–2018
|-
| {{sort|Sabatini.|{{flagicon|ARG}} Gabriela Sabatini}}
| rowspan="5" | 5
|'''<u>1</u>'''
| - || -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|2
| -
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1991–1992
|-
| {{sort|Pierce.|{{flagicon|FRA}} Mary Pierce}}
| -
| - || -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1997–2005
|-
| {{sort|Safina.|{{flagicon|RUS}} Dinara Safina}}
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|1
|1
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|2008–2009
|-
| {{sort|Radwańska.|{{flagicon|POL}} Agnieszka Radwańska}}
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|2011–2016
|-
| {{sort|Sabalenka.|{{flagicon|BLR}} Aryna Sabalenka}}
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|2018–2023
|-style="background:#EAECF0; font-weight:bold; text-align:center" class="sortbottom"
|Player
|Titles||Boc||Dub||Doh||Ind||Mia||Cha||Mad||Ber||Rom||Can||San||Cin||Phi||Mos||Tok||Wuh||Zur||Bei||Years
|}</div></div>
* Players with 5+ titles. Active players and records are denoted in '''<u>bold</u>'''.
* 73 champions in 294 events as of '''2024 Rome'''.


===Version 1 (events listed in time slot chronological order) ===
:As we've discussed about 50 times already, ]/], the tournament is held in ], not in Miami. That is a verifiable fact. See, for example, . Aside from the location of the tournament, the women's event has never been a "masters" event. Never. And don't edit war about these issues. Wikitestor has been blocked indefinitely for abuse of editing privileges. Your sockmaster account, Korlzor, could be next if you persist in being disruptive. That account already was blocked for 12 days and then 1 month in October 2008. ] (]) 17:26, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
{|
:: The tournament is called "Miami Masters" on both ATP/WTA and shortly it's called Miami, and it will be on Misplaced Pages. You both are the only ones defending the KB,F spam. We are taking it out. Btw, weren't you supposed to be retired? ] (]) 18:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
| style="width:12em"|{{legend|#EAECF0|Active tournaments}}
| {{legend|#0|Defunct tournaments}}
|}
<div style="width:95wh">
{{Columns-list|colwidth=9em|
:'''Boc''' (Boca Raton)
:'''Dub''' (Dubai)
:'''Doh''' (Doha)
:'''Ind''' (Indian Wells)
:'''Mia''' (Miami)
:'''Cha''' (Charleston)
:'''Mad''' (Madrid)
:'''Ber''' (Berlin)
:'''Rom''' (Rome)
:'''Can''' (Canada)
:'''San''' (San Diego)
:'''Cin''' (Cincinnati)
:'''Phi''' (Philadelphia)
:'''Mos''' (Moscow)
:'''Tok''' (Tokyo)
:'''Wuh''' (Wuhan)
:'''Zur''' (Zürich)
:'''Bei''' (Beijing)
}}</div>
<div class="covid19-container" role="region" tabindex="0">
<div class="scroll-container">
{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}{{table alignment}}
{| class="wikitable sortable nowrap mw-datatable col1left sort-under-center sticky-col1" style="margin:0; text-align:center; font-size: 90%"
|- class="sticky-row"
! scope="col" |Player
! scope="col" |Titles
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Boc
! scope="col" | Dub
! scope="col" | Doh
! scope="col" | Ind
! scope="col" | Mia
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Cha
! scope="col" | Mad
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Ber
! scope="col" | Rom
! scope="col" | Can
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | San
! scope="col" | Cin
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Phi
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Mos
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Tok
! scope="col" | Wuh
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Zur
! scope="col" | Bei
! scope="col" class="unsortable" |Years
|-
| {{sort|Williams.|{{flagicon|USA}} Serena Williams}}
|23
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>8</u>'''
|1
|2
| -
|'''<u>4</u>'''
|3
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|1999–2016
|}</div></div>


===Version 2 (active followed by defunct events) ===
:: Kolzor/Wikitesor/Numerous anon IPs: Your attitude is very disturbing - your blind and threatening behavior is very damaging for Misplaced Pages. You have been evading blocks as much as you could, so don't throw around accusaitons. Let it rest, for gods sake.--''']''', '']'' 17:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
{|
| style="width:12em"|{{legend|#EAECF0|Active tournaments}}
| {{legend|#0|Defunct tournaments}}
|}
<div style="width:95wh">
{{Columns-list|colwidth=9em|
:'''Dub''' (Dubai)
:'''Doh''' (Doha)
:'''Ind''' (Indian Wells)
:'''Mia''' (Miami)
:'''Mad''' (Madrid)
:'''Rom''' (Rome)
:'''Can''' (Canada)
:'''Cin''' (Cincinnati)
:'''Wuh''' (Wuhan)
:'''Bei''' (Beijing)
:'''Boc''' (Boca Raton)
:'''Cha''' (Charleston)
:'''Ber''' (Berlin)
:'''San''' (San Diego)
:'''Phi''' (Philadelphia)
:'''Mos''' (Moscow)
:'''Tok''' (Tokyo)
:'''Zur''' (Zürich)
}}</div>
<div class="covid19-container" role="region" tabindex="0">
<div class="scroll-container">
{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}{{table alignment}}
{| class="wikitable sortable nowrap mw-datatable col1left sort-under-center sticky-col1" style="margin:0; text-align:center; font-size: 90%"
|- class="sticky-row"
! scope="col" |Player
! scope="col" |Titles
! scope="col" | Dub
! scope="col" | Doh
! scope="col" | Ind
! scope="col" | Mia
! scope="col" | Mad
! scope="col" | Rom
! scope="col" | Can
! scope="col" | Cin
! scope="col" | Wuh
! scope="col" | Bei
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Boc
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Cha
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Ber
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | San
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Phi
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Mos
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Tok
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Zur
! scope="col" class="unsortable" |Years
|-
| {{sort|Williams.|{{flagicon|USA}} Serena Williams}}
|23
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>8</u>'''
|2
|'''<u>4</u>'''
|3
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1999–2016
|}</div></div></div>


===Version 3 (defunct followed by active events)===
::: haha sure, the one that "because he wanted to" started to delete the grand slam and ms tables, on his own. Not even paying attention. ] (]) 18:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
{|
| style="width:12em"|{{legend|#EAECF0|Active tournaments}}
| {{legend|#0|Defunct tournaments}}
|}
<div style="width:95wh">
{{Columns-list|colwidth=9em|
:'''Boc''' (Boca Raton)
:'''Cha''' (Charleston)
:'''Ber''' (Berlin)
:'''San''' (San Diego)
:'''Phi''' (Philadelphia)
:'''Mos''' (Moscow)
:'''Tok''' (Tokyo)
:'''Zur''' (Zürich)


:'''Dub''' (Dubai)
:::: Where did I say "because I wanted to"? Your attitude is exceptionally hostile, and very unhelpful. What do you actually mean by "Not even paying attention"? --''']''', '']'' 22:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
:'''Doh''' (Doha)
:'''Ind''' (Indian Wells)
:'''Mia''' (Miami)
:'''Mad''' (Madrid)
:'''Rom''' (Rome)
:'''Can''' (Canada)
:'''Cin''' (Cincinnati)
:'''Wuh''' (Wuhan)
:'''Bei''' (Beijing)
}}</div>
<div class="covid19-container" role="region" tabindex="0">
<div class="scroll-container">
{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}{{table alignment}}
{| class="wikitable sortable nowrap mw-datatable col1left sort-under-center sticky-col1" style="margin:0; text-align:center; font-size: 90%"
|- class="sticky-row"
! scope="col" |Player
! scope="col" |Titles
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Boc
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Cha
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Ber
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | San
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Phi
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Mos
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Tok
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff" | Zur
! scope="col" | Dub
! scope="col" | Doh
! scope="col" | Ind
! scope="col" | Mia
! scope="col" | Mad
! scope="col" | Rom
! scope="col" | Can
! scope="col" | Cin
! scope="col" | Wuh
! scope="col" | Bei
! scope="col" class="unsortable" |Years
|-
| {{sort|Williams.|{{flagicon|USA}} Serena Williams}}
|23
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>8</u>'''
|2
|'''<u>4</u>'''
|3
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|1
|1999–2016
|}</div></div>


=== Timeshifter's table ===
=== And for 100th time, the Key Biscayne spam war starts again ===
:'''Note:''' I removed the table from the ]. Horizontal sticky row headers do not work correctly inside the box in Firefox in Windows 10 Pro. Nor in Safari in my ]. See the table inside the box in .
Now the 2009 season will start, tables are being changed and Key Biscayne is starting to being spammed replacing Miami again.
:'''nowrap''' has been left in so that this table can be compared to Qwerty284651's table (without nowrap) in portrait view on cell phones. We both agree that nowrap should not be used. Nowrap messes up portrait view on mobile by making the location column take up too much width (see discussion). On desktop PC monitor (Windows 10 Pro) there appears to be a bug (in Firefox only) in dealing with nowrap that causes the table to be cut off slightly at the end of the row, and the horizontal scrollbar appears.


I edited version 2 (active followed by defunct events) to get the following table below. I lessened the height with this:
So we are going to have the '''100th Anti Key Byscaine Spam war'''. I don't give a shit what are u going to say TE, It's just I dont care where it is hold. It's called Miami. DOT.
:<nowiki><div class="scroll-container" style="max-height:50vh;"></nowiki>
The article editors can decide what scrolling table height to use.


New readers: Sticky horizontal headers work. Lessen your browser window width to see. Also, feel free to start your own table section here, or in a user sandbox.
] (]) 17:23, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


The '''table below''' (when nowrap is ignored or removed) is '''working perfectly''' on my '''desktop PC monitor''' in '''Windows 10 Pro.''' Also on my ''']''' (in portrait and landscape view). It has been tested in '''Safari, Firefox, Chrome, Edge, and Opera.''' The '''row and column headers are both sticky.'''
:Note to all involved parties: Korlzor has been blocked for one month for hypocrisy (accusing Tennis expert of using IPs to edit war when he's been proven to have done the same), unnecessary hostility, incivility, and edit warring. Thanks. ]''']''' 17:50, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


{|
:: Good call. While Tennis Expert can be difficult to "dance with", he/she never resorts to the direct obscene incivility that Korlzor uses. It highly depreciates the value of his/her input 8 also the repeated use of IPs like ). As for the subject my stand is:
| {{legend|#EAECF0|Active tournaments}}
:: The physical location of the tounament is Key Biscayne, not Miami. However, even the tournament uses Miami as the postal address on its . So I guess it is one of these occasions where a suburb hosts a turnament, but one uses the large city (like Copenhagen Open which was held in Frederiksberg). But I was told on Tennis Experts talk page that my source was wrong (see , which, by the way, is a censored version of the full debate).--''']''', '']'' 18:59, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
| {{legend|#0|Defunct tournaments}}
|}
{{flatlist|
* '''Bei''' (Beijing)
* '''Ber''' (Berlin)
* '''Boc''' (Boca Raton)
* '''Can''' (Canada)
* '''Cha''' (Charleston)
* '''Cin''' (Cincinnati)
* '''Doh''' (Doha)
* '''Dub''' (Dubai)
* '''Ind''' (Indian Wells)
* '''Mad''' (Madrid)
* '''Mia''' (Miami)
* '''Mos''' (Moscow)
* '''Phi''' (Philadelphia)
* '''Rom''' (Rome)
* '''San''' (San Diego)
* '''Tok''' (Tokyo)
* '''Wuh''' (Wuhan)
* '''Zur''' (Zürich)
}}
{{sticky table start}}
{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}{{table alignment}}
{| class="wikitable nowrap sortable mw-datatable defaultcenter col1left sort-under-center sticky-col1" style="margin:0; font-size: 90%;"
|- class="sticky-row"
! scope="col"|Player
! scope="col"|Titles
! scope="col"|Dub
! scope="col"|Doh
! scope="col"|Ind
! scope="col"|Mia
! scope="col"|Mad
! scope="col"|Rom
! scope="col"|Can
! scope="col"|Cin
! scope="col"|Wuh
! scope="col"|Bei
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Boc
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Cha
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Ber
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|San
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Phi
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Mos
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Tok
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Zur
! scope="col"|Years
|-
| {{sort|Williams.|{{flagicon|USA}} Serena Williams}}
|23
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>8</u>'''
|2
|'''<u>4</u>'''
|3
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1999–2016
|-
| {{sort|Hingis.|{{flagicon|SUI}} Martina Hingis}}
|17|| - || -
|1
|2
| -
|2
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|1
| -
| -
|1
|'''<u>5</u>'''
|1
|1997–2007
|-
| {{sort|Graf.|{{flagicon|GER}} Steffi Graf}}
|15
| - || -
|1
|3
| -
| -
|2|| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
|1
|'''<u>5</u>'''
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
|1990–1996
|-
| {{sort|Sharapova.|{{flagicon|RUS}} Maria Sharapova}}
|14
| -
|1
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|1
|3
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|2
|1
|2005–2015
|-
| {{sort|Davenport.|{{flagicon|USA}} Lindsay Davenport}}
|11
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|4
|'''<u>4</u>'''
|1997–2005
|-
| {{sort|Henin.|{{flagicon|BEL}} Justine Henin}}
| rowspan="3" | 10
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|3
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
|2002–2007
|-
| {{sort|Azarenka.|{{flagicon|BLR}} Victoria Azarenka}}
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|3
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2009–2020
|-
| {{sort|Świątek.|{{flagicon|POL}} Iga Świątek}}
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|1
| 1
|3
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| - || - || -
| -
|2021–2024
|-
| {{sort|Martínez.|{{flagicon|ESP}} Conchita Martínez}}
| rowspan="5" | 9
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>4</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|2
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
|1993–2000
|-
| {{sort|Seles.|{{flagicon|USA}} Monica Seles}}
| - || -
| -
|2
| -
|2
|'''<u>4</u>'''|| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1990–2000
|-
| {{sort|Williams.|{{flagicon|USA}} Venus Williams}}
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|3
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|1998–2015
|-
| {{sort|Halep.|{{flagicon|ROU}} Simona Halep}}
|1
|1
|1
| -
|2
|1
|3
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| - || -
| -
| -
|2014–2022
|-
| {{sort|Kvitová.|{{flagicon|CZE}} Petra Kvitová}}
| -
|1
| -
|1
|'''<u>3</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2011–2023
|-
| {{sort|Clijsters.|{{flagicon|BEL}} Kim Clijsters}}
| rowspan="1" | 7
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|2
| -
|1
|1
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2003–2010
|-
| {{sort|Sánchez Vicario.|{{flagicon|ESP}} Arantxa Sánchez Vicario}}
| rowspan="4" | 6
| - || -
| -
|2
| -
|1
|2|| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1992–1996
|-
| {{sort|Mauresmo.|{{flagicon|FRA}} Amélie Mauresmo}}
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2001–2005
|-
| {{sort|Janković.|{{flagicon|SRB}} Jelena Janković}}
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|2
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|2007–2010
|-
| {{sort|Wozniacki.|{{flagicon|DEN}} Caroline Wozniacki}}
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2010–2018
|-
| {{sort|Sabatini.|{{flagicon|ARG}} Gabriela Sabatini}}
| rowspan="5" | 5
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -|| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1991–1992
|-
| {{sort|Pierce.|{{flagicon|FRA}} Mary Pierce}}
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|1997–2005
|-
| {{sort|Safina.|{{flagicon|RUS}} Dinara Safina}}
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|1
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2008–2009
|-
| {{sort|Radwańska.|{{flagicon|POL}} Agnieszka Radwańska}}
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2011–2016
|-
| {{sort|Sabalenka.|{{flagicon|BLR}} Aryna Sabalenka}}
| -
|1
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2018–2023
|-style="background:#EAECF0; font-weight:bold; text-align:center" class="sortbottom"
|Player
|Titles||Dub||Doh||Ind||Mia||Mad||Rom||Can||Cin||Wuh||Bei||Boc||Cha||Ber||San||Phi||Mos||Tok||Zur||Years
|}
{{sticky table end}}
* Players with 5+ titles. Active players and records are denoted in '''<u>bold</u>'''.
* 73 champions in 294 events as of '''2024 Rome'''.
--] (]) 11:58, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
{{clear}}
=== Qwerty284651's table ===
{|style="width:30em"|
| {{legend|#EAECF0|Active tournaments}}
| {{legend|#0|Defunct tournaments}}
|}
{{flatlist|
* '''Bei''' (Beijing)
* '''Ber''' (Berlin)
* '''Boc''' (Boca Raton)
* '''Can''' (Canada)
* '''Cha''' (Charleston)
* '''Cin''' (Cincinnati)
* '''Doh''' (Doha)
* '''Dub''' (Dubai)
* '''Ind''' (Indian Wells)
* '''Mad''' (Madrid)
* '''Mia''' (Miami)
* '''Mos''' (Moscow)
* '''Phi''' (Philadelphia)
* '''Rom''' (Rome)
* '''San''' (San Diego)
* '''Tok''' (Tokyo)
* '''Wuh''' (Wuhan)
* '''Zur''' (Zürich)
}}


{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}{{table alignment}}{{sticky table start}}
:::Despite his/her incivility, Korlzor has a point (say, half a point). The tournament's '''name''' is indeed ''Miami'', since 2000. This can be seen on the ATP calendars () or on the ITF website (choose you start/end dates and search for Miami ). But the tournament of course takes place in ''Key Biscayne'', as Tennis expert points out. So, using ''Miami'' or ''Key Biscayne'' depends on the context. You can say that Davydenko won ''Miami'', or that he won in ''Key Biscayne'', but saying he won ''Key Biscayne'' is as wrong as to say he won in ''Miami''. Am I obscure here or is it understandable ? Miami '''is''' played '''in''' Key Biscayne. So Tennis expert is wrong to write ''Key Biscayne'' in the performance timelines, where you have only the tournaments' names (US Open, etc...) and not their locations, but Korlzor is wrong to replace Key Biscayne by Miami in the course of the text (as he/she has done on ]), where it's perfectly alright to say Davydenko/Nadal or Federer played in Key Biscayne.<br />And as HJensen points out, this is true for the many tournaments which bear the name of a nearby city, rather than that of their actual locations : ] was played in ], ] is played in ], ] is played in ], ] is played in ], ] is played in ], etc... --] (]) 11:52, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
{| class="wikitable sortable mw-datatable defaultcenter col1left sort-under-center sticky-col1" style="margin:0; font-size: 90%"
|- class="sticky-row"
! scope="col"|Player
! scope="col"|Titles
! scope="col"|Dub
! scope="col"|Doh
! scope="col"|Ind
! scope="col"|Mia
! scope="col"|Mad
! scope="col"|Rom
! scope="col"|Can
! scope="col"|Cin
! scope="col"|Wuh
! scope="col"|Bei
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Boc
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Cha
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Ber
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|San
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Phi
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Mos
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Tok
! scope="col" style="background-color:#fff"|Zur
! scope="col"|Years
|-
| {{sort|Williams.|{{flagicon|USA}} Serena Williams}}
|23
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>8</u>'''
|2
|'''<u>4</u>'''
|3
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1999–2016
|-
| {{sort|Hingis.|{{flagicon|SUI}} Martina Hingis}}
|17|| - || -
|1
|2
| -
|2
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|1
| -
| -
|1
|'''<u>5</u>'''
|1
|1997–2007
|-
| {{sort|Graf.|{{flagicon|GER}} Steffi Graf}}
|15
| - || -
|1
|3
| -
| -
|2|| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
|1
|'''<u>5</u>'''
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
|1990–1996
|-
| {{sort|Sharapova.|{{flagicon|RUS}} Maria Sharapova}}
|14
| -
|1
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|1
|3
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|2
|1
|2005–2015
|-
| {{sort|Davenport.|{{flagicon|USA}} Lindsay Davenport}}
|11
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|4
|'''<u>4</u>'''
|1997–2005
|-
| {{sort|Henin.|{{flagicon|BEL}} Justine Henin}}
| rowspan="3" | 10
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|3
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
|2002–2007
|-
| {{sort|Azarenka.|{{flagicon|BLR}} Victoria Azarenka}}
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|3
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2009–2020
|-
| {{sort|Świątek.|{{flagicon|POL}} Iga Świątek}}
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|1
| 1
|3
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| - || - || -
| -
|2021–2024
|-
| {{sort|Martínez.|{{flagicon|ESP}} Conchita Martínez}}
| rowspan="5" | 9
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>4</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|2
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
|1993–2000
|-
| {{sort|Seles.|{{flagicon|USA}} Monica Seles}}
| - || -
| -
|2
| -
|2
|'''<u>4</u>'''|| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1990–2000
|-
| {{sort|Williams.|{{flagicon|USA}} Venus Williams}}
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|3
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|1998–2015
|-
| {{sort|Halep.|{{flagicon|ROU}} Simona Halep}}
|1
|1
|1
| -
|2
|1
|3
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| - || -
| -
| -
|2014–2022
|-
| {{sort|Kvitová.|{{flagicon|CZE}} Petra Kvitová}}
| -
|1
| -
|1
|'''<u>3</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2011–2023
|-
| {{sort|Clijsters.|{{flagicon|BEL}} Kim Clijsters}}
| rowspan="1" | 7
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|2
| -
|1
|1
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2003–2010
|-
| {{sort|Sánchez Vicario.|{{flagicon|ESP}} Arantxa Sánchez Vicario}}
| rowspan="4" | 6
| - || -
| -
|2
| -
|1
|2|| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1992–1996
|-
| {{sort|Mauresmo.|{{flagicon|FRA}} Amélie Mauresmo}}
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2001–2005
|-
| {{sort|Janković.|{{flagicon|SRB}} Jelena Janković}}
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|2
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|2007–2010
|-
| {{sort|Wozniacki.|{{flagicon|DEN}} Caroline Wozniacki}}
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2010–2018
|-
| {{sort|Sabatini.|{{flagicon|ARG}} Gabriela Sabatini}}
| rowspan="5" | 5
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -|| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1991–1992
|-
| {{sort|Pierce.|{{flagicon|FRA}} Mary Pierce}}
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|1997–2005
|-
| {{sort|Safina.|{{flagicon|RUS}} Dinara Safina}}
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|1
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2008–2009
|-
| {{sort|Radwańska.|{{flagicon|POL}} Agnieszka Radwańska}}
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2011–2016
|-
| {{sort|Sabalenka.|{{flagicon|BLR}} Aryna Sabalenka}}
| -
|1
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2018–2023
|-style="background:#EAECF0; font-weight:bold; text-align:center" class="sortbottom"
|Player
|Titles||Dub||Doh||Ind||Mia||Mad||Rom||Can||Cin||Wuh||Bei||Boc||Cha||Ber||San||Phi||Mos||Tok||Zur||Years
|}
{{sticky table end}}
* Players with 5+ titles. Active players and records are denoted in '''<u>bold</u>'''.
* 73 champions in 294 events as of '''2024 Rome'''.


Added my version above. <s>See between your and my version.</s> ] (]) 23:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
:::: I couldn't have expressed this better myself. Excellent summary! --''']''', '']'' 12:03, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


=== Discussion ===
::::Well, that was kinda true. My problem is not seeing Key Biscayne on the prose, but the SPONSORED TOURNAMENT NAME. Anyways, the problem is also that if someone new to tennis reads the article, if he does read "He won in Key Biscayne, Florida", he won't have any idea about what tournament are we talking about. If he does read "He won The Miami MS", he will clearly know what tournament is is.] (]) 15:07, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


:Fixed sticky rows not working (sticky-Col1 -> sticky-col1). ] (]) 18:27, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
The name of the tournament is the "Sony Ericsson Open", not the "Miami Masters". So, it's not valid to argue that "Miami Masters" is the name of the tournament and the tournament is held ''in'' Key Biscayne. This encyclopedia is concerned with verifiable facts, not with marketing strategies. Fact #1 is that the tournament is held in a tennis complex in Key Biscayne, Florida, a separate city from Miami. Fact #2 is that the name of the tournament is the Sony Ericsson Open. As for the Kolzor sockpuppet's argument, Key Biscayne creates no ambiguity for our readers given the links we provide. ] (]) 23:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
:I prefer the chronological instead of the alphabetic order; it makes it easier to look for the event's name. ] (]) 18:55, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
::I leave that up to you. Though I don't understand what you mean by chronological order. I am not a tennis fan, and so I have no idea of the chronological order of events.
::I prefer version 2. Since cell phone users will want to see active events first without having to scroll horizontally.
::Also, it is nice to let the years sort too.
::I removed any table formatting that did not seem to be needed. Or did not seem to be doing anything. Such as '''style="margin:o;"'''
::What is that doing? And I think you meant to use a zero, and not the letter "o"
::With the flat-list glossary it is not needed since the space between the glossary and table is not large. --] (]) 19:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
:::The original order listed was the chronological before you changed it to alphabetic. The column order is the chronological order for the active and defunct events. Which is why I would like to see it in the legend above.
:::Added margin:0 to omit excess wrapping whitespace.
:::Agree: current events should be listed first.
:::Is the year column even necessary or can we do without it? ] (]) 19:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
::::You can change the flat-list glossary to chronological order. But alphabetical order is a lot more intuitive. Especially for casual tennis fans who may not know the chronological order of events. I assume that is what you mean by chronological order? And the flat list takes up less vertical space than {{t|Columns-list}}. That is important for cell phones.
::::I noticed that you have margin:0 within the table wikitext in your version 2 higher up. I removed it from my version 2. I don't see that it is doing anything at all.
::::On your version 2, the scrolling window stops prematurely in the horizontal direction. In my version 2 I can read all the columns. That is because I removed '''class=nowrap''' from the table.
::::I like having the year column. So I know what is the time period for each tennis player winning the titles. And I like it being sortable. --] (]) 20:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::I would leave nowrap and margin:0; I am using desktop version on mobile. It leaves a line of whitespace on my end (desktop version on mobile and regular desktop), which I bypass with margin:0 ( vs. ). I agree with the glossary being in alphabetical order—more intuitive to the casual reader. ] (]) 20:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::Replaced the plain flat-list glossary (<nowiki>• '''</nowiki> -> <nowiki>* '''</nowiki>) with {{tl|flatlist}}. ] (]) 20:57, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::Please do not edit my version 2 further. It is very confusing.
::::::Edit your version 2 higher up. Then I can make comparisons.
::::::{{tl|flatlist}} is a good idea. I think I had a problem with it before. But now it is working. I will keep it in my version.
::::::I removed margin:0 from my version 2 for comparison purposes.
::::::Will be looking later in browsers on my cell phone.
::::::--] (]) 21:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::In what way confusing? I feel a live update on the same table is faster and more efficient than each editing their own table.
:::::::Okay will not add margin:0 until further notice. I remembered sidebars/navboxes use html lists often so I looked into those. The best I could come up was flatlist. ] (]) 21:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Looking at the table's design and code, I am content with how it turned out, unless you have something else to add. nowrap and margin:0 are minor things and preferential. ] (]) 21:24, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
{{unindent|:::::::}}
I am constantly tweaking. So I need to see what effect my changes are having. And I need to compare with your version 2. I can just scroll up and down this talk page to compare the 2. Plus ] requires not editing others' posts. I rarely do that except when it is something minor that I know they will appreciate. Like changing margin:o to margin:0 in your versions that still needed to be changed.


If margin:0 is of help to you, then I have no problem with you using it in your version 2, and in articles. I am just trying to see for myself what it is doing. Will do some cell phone work later. Same for nowrap. I think it causes problems sometimes on desktop screens. It may help on cell phones in this case.
:I wonder why u ever change Miami for Key Biscayne but never change Cincinnati for Mason. Do you live in Key Biscayne actually? ] (]) 04:21, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


I am using max-height. So the scrolling table window is less tall:
::While I agree with you partially on a technical level Tennis expert, you have to consider the fact that to a general reader this sort of technicality can cause confusion. And if we decide to follow your example and decide to point out actual locations of the tournaments as shown by Oxford St., this would only increase the confusion of the reader. The whole point of writing an article is that the reader should have an instant understanding of the type and location of the tournament.
:<nowiki><div class="scroll-container" style="max-height:70vh;"></nowiki>
::And 62.57.212.67, please refrain from making personal attacks. If you are incapable of continuing discussion ], please do not contribute to the discussion. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 05:12, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
--] (]) 21:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
::I truncated version 1-3 to only display the notable changes and removed the rest (glossary flat-list and table's column headers) for better readibility. ] (]) 23:36, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
:::See:
:::] - not scrolling.
:::] - scrolling.
:::'''Margin:0''' helps with the scrolling table. On my desktop monitor there is less space between the top of it and the section header when you push the scroll bar all the way to the top. That is all I have noticed so far. I haven't noticed any difference on my mobile browsers yet. --] (]) 15:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
::::Exactly what I said. The difference can be noticed on desktop and the desktop mode on mobile browsers but not on mobile mode, because the latter defaults to Minerva skin which omits any stray whitespace. ] (]) 17:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
{{unindent|::::}}


===Continued discussion===
:::I agree that our general readers are important but not so important that this encyclopedia should include factual errors. As for Oxford St.'s list of alleged factual errors, those should be fixed, too, if they really are errors. ] (]) 05:56, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if you noticed my note in my table section: "'''Note:''' I removed the table from the ]. Horizontal sticky row headers do not work correctly inside the box in Firefox in Windows 10 Pro. Nor in Safari in my ]."


Look at your table in the show/hide box to see what I mean. I suggest removing the box so that others reading this thread can see that the horizontal row headers are sticky, and work correctly. --] (]) 03:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
::I suggest, 62.57.212.67, that you immediately stop using sockpuppets to evade the 1 month block that was imposed on you lest the block be extended. See and this . ] (]) 05:56, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


:I get you. <s>{{tl|cot}}/{{tl|cob}},</s> Collapse box, as you call it {{tq|show/hide box}}, <s>overrides</s> disables overflow<s>, thereby disabling</s> and sticky headers (row and column). ] (]) 03:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
::::Well, now we need a solution that is both technically correct and at the same time understanding. Now Key Biscayne is a village near Miami that very few people have heard of. So I guess what we can do is add both when using it in the prose description. However when using in tables etc., we use only Miami, as this gives a clear idea to the reader of general location of the tournament. I guess this same rule can be applied to other similar cases as well, where the actual town/village of the tournament is not well known. I know that this description may not be geographically precise (e.g. Key Biscayne isn't exactly party of Miami city), but I think that it would be sufficient compromise that would achieve both our goals. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 06:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:Btw, I propose we rename the tables to version 1 & 2, respectively, because with our names next to them sounds like we one the tables which goes against ]. We don't own anything on wiki, but rather share it with the rest of the community. You named them thusly to distinguish whose proposed design is but it may rub people the wrong way. ] (]) 03:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
::I am not saying I own the table in the article, and so it doesn't go against ]. Saying "Timeshifter's table" in the heading just prevents others from editing the table in that section. And it allows me to continue editing it. Since the discussion is in another section it makes it easy. And it makes it simpler for others to follow the discussion. And others can come up with their own table ideas in their own sections if they want to. Or in a sandbox. I left a note to that effect in my table section. Going by table numbers alone could get very confusing.
::I added back '''margin:0''' to my table per discussion. --] (]) 04:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
:::I agree with your request. It's just that I have been involved in a couple of table redesign discussions where we've gone through several versions and combinations for a result: all edits on 1 table or set of tables. But have it your way.


:::Imagine 10 editors, each with their own version. You would never reach a consensus that way. Too many cooks in the kitchen. ] (]) 04:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::LeaveSleaves, nice attempt but TennisExpert isn't a person that actually reads and makes any peace with anyone, he considers that wikipedia is his duty, some articles like this one are owned by him and such... He NEVER asks to change anything, he comes in, changes it, and then reverts the whole people trying to put it back. He can even continuously break the 3RR rule, that he won't be banned (happened me twice, he reverted me, then I got banned and he just got a warning that he completely ignored..). It's pointless to argue with him, he is going to answer you "Misplaced Pages must have true information" and "Miami Masters is held on a complex on ]" (and the fun part is that he actually links to the Key Biscayne city into Key Biscayne (]"), not to the Key Biscayne part where the tournament is held ]).] (]) 06:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::I guess I could move my table to a sandbox. Maybe wait to see if more tables show up before consolidating on one here. I think we have the same table except for the height and nowrap. Amount of height is a decision of the article editors. So is nowrap. I prefer not using it, but I can live with it. Right now people can quickly compare our 2 tables on the same page to decide whether they want nowrap or not. --] (]) 06:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::OK, I have changed my mind after looking at my cell phone again. Keep nowrap. I was torn between its effects on desktop PC screen versus mobile screen. Mobile wins out on this one. I am talking about mobile (not desktop) view on my ]. This iphone has a relatively smaller screen compared to other cell phones. And I use a larger text size. So if nowrap works on it, then it will also work fine on other cell phones. --] (]) 07:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::Update: After additional testing on portrait mobile, I noticed that nowrap obstructs field of view of the table by 70% similar to ] but for rows. (see vs. ). Removed nowrap from my version. ] (]) 16:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::P.S. I am pretty much done on my end and I am happy with the version. I feel you and I are, sans margin:0, on the same page. I will give the new design a month to marinate until the next event from the list above. And, if noone objects will implement said design in all 4 pages. ] (]) 16:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
{{outdent|::::::}}
That's funny, I did not even think to look at such a wide table in portrait view on my cell. I just did, and since it is a smaller screen, and because I use a large font, I can only see one and a half data cells in the row. That is with nowrap on. I can see 4 and a half data cells without nowrap on. So nowrap can remain off as far as I am concerned.


Feel free to implement the changes now. Further discussion may make further improvements. But I see no reason to wait to implement these improvements. And we agree on keeping margin:0. --] (]) 21:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::Stop IP hopping and once again, quit making personal attacks. Make a valid contribution if you can. As for me, I have an ] you can't seem to understand. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 06:48, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:I primarily edit in desktop mode on mobile, so I always use portrait view. I doubt the majority of wiki visitors use landscape mode on mobile. 4 and a half cells is 9x more than half a data cell (on my end, goes from 5 to 8 cells) without nowrap. ] (]) 21:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
::For me it is 3x more without nowrap in mobile mode in portrait view. 1.5 vs 4.5 data cells visible without horizontal scrolling.
::You are right about the majority of wiki readers since most will have a larger cell phone than me.
::I don't like to indent too many times. Messages end up being very long and narrow, and some occupy only a third of the width of the screen on my phone in portrait view.
::I just noticed that {{t|outdent}} operates differently on my cell versus on desktop PC screen.
::<nowiki>{{outdent|::::::}}</nowiki> - The colons are needed on my phone to get the outdent arrow to line up at all in portrait view. Unlike in desktop PC where they are not really needed. --] (]) 22:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
:::By the way, I left nowrap in my table so readers can compare our 2 tables in portrait view on cell phones. Your table does not have nowrap. That way readers can see why we both now oppose nowrap. I left a note about it before my table. --] (]) 22:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
::::{{tl|od}} does behave differently on mobile vs. on desktop. Still, don't need to outdent every few comments. ] (]) 22:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::I have the smaller cell screen. So I think I would know when to do it. --] (]) 08:36, 6 July 2024 (UTC)


===Event name change discussion===
:::::I don't agree with your premise, LeaveSleaves. Key Biscayne is a well-known city in Florida, and the tournament itself is often reported in the news media as occurring in Key Biscayne. (See, for example, Bud Collins's 2008 tennis encyclopedia where he says the tournament occurs in Key Biscayne.) And Key Biscayne is not connected with Miami in any way whatsoever. They are entirely different legal entities. As for using a mixture of Miami and Key Biscayne in articles, I believe that would be even more confusing to readers. ] (]) 07:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Comment - I'm not really into this whole chart so I have no say in how it's displayed. Whatever wor'''ks''' for you two. I do have one complaint about these type of charts in general since you are in the process of fine-tuning this one. In almost all tennis articles we have had a big no-no to listing tournaments as only a city. They are the common tournament name, not a location. Why on earth would we retain the city here when it's being updated? It seems like the events could easily be two letter abbreviations. Indian Wells is the event name so it should be '''IW''' or I'''WO''' for Indian Wells Open. It should never be Rome since it's the Italian Open that everyone knows. So '''IT''' or '''IO''' or ITO. No Tokyo it's Pan Pacific Open. '''PP''' or PPO. No Beijing... it's the China Open. '''CO''' or CHO. And the key should not say the cities either but instead use the name of the event. Pretty much all our charts by consensus make sure we use the tournament name under tournaments. Why is this chart funky? I see Moscow and I have no idea what event that is... Kremlin Cup. Same with Berlin since it's the German Open. And the abbreviations should also link to the proper tournament. ] (]) 21:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
*:Will update the glossary. Than'''ks''' for the feedback. ] (]) 22:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
*:This then merits updating the following pages:
*:# ATP: ]'s transcluded charts found in ] and respective records and stat pages: ], ]
*:# WTA: ]'s transcluded charts found in ] and respective records and stat pages: ], ]. ] (]) 22:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
*::As I said, some tables have been wrong for awhile, and some have slowly been fixed. Since you two were updating these particular charts it seems like a good time to fix the city names and make them proper event names. Whether it gets left as Ind for Indian Wells Open is not a huge deal, but leaving it as Ber for German Open or Rom for Italian Open or Tok for Pan Pacific Open is the bigger issue. ] (]) 22:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
*:::@], I surmise you want the event names in ] and ]'s "Past finals" sections expanded to full names. ] (]) 15:39, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
*::I substituted the charts on the main pages (] and ]). Here are the current events' names:
==== Event short names ====
1. '''Bei''' (Beijing) - '''CH''' or '''CO''' or '''CN''' for China Open


2. '''Ber''' (Berlin) - '''GO''' or '''GR''' or '''GE''' for German Open
::::::I'm a little confused. ], at least as given in the Misplaced Pages article is a village, not a city, in ]. In fact it is located no farther than 20-30 miles from Miami city. And as I said earlier, I'm not claiming that my suggestion is geographically (or legally for that matter) precise. What I'm trying to do is reach a solution that would satisfy both technical necessities and necessity of an ordinary reader anywhere in the world who has minimum knowledge of US or Florida geography. To such a person Miami is definitely an easy pointer compared to Key Biscayne. To summarize, a description that looks like this: ], ].


3. '''Boc''' (Boca Raton) - '''VF''' or '''FL''' for Virginia Slims of Florida
:::::::In the United States, the name of a municipality (city or village or whatever) has no consequence. What is relevant is whether it is an incorporated entity. Key Biscayne is, and it is not "in" Miami. I am opposed to intentional imprecision in an encyclopedia. That's OK, I suppose, for a commercial website like the ATP's or WTA's websites. But not for Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 13:08, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


4. '''Can''' (Canada) - '''CO''' or '''CN''' or '''CA''' for Canadian Open
::::::::I'd once again like you to consider that the reader is not necessarily familiar with the geography and municipality system of US. Our focus is not on defining the settlement which holds the tournament but to give the reader a general idea of its location. And I'm not asking for removing mention of Key Biscayne, but to club it with Miami. Or do you also disagree with the fact that Key Biscayne is part of Miami-Dade County? <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 14:38, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


5. '''Cha''' (Charleston) - '''CL''' or '''CH''' or '''CO''' or '''CR''' for Charleston open
:::::::::If you want to combine Key Biscayne with Miami, then it must be combined with the official name of the county, which is not "Miami". And I disagree with your assumption about our focus. This is an encyclopedia that needs to focus on facts. ] (]) 22:09, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


6. '''Chi''' (Chicago) - a tricky one....'''VC''' or '''AC''' or '''CI''' or '''CG''' for Virginia Slims of Chicago/Ameritech Cup
::::::::::'''You''' may disagree, but the point on such a project is to get a global opinion of the situation (the so called '''consensus'''), and we just have to read the giant-discussion above about the sponsored vs non-sponsored articles, and to read this small one, to discover you are the only editor defending that, and thus you're forcing an entire community to be against you on such purposes. ] (]) 21:50, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


7. '''Cin''' (Cincinnati) - '''CI''' for Cincinnati Open
(outdent) What about a new approach to listing the Masters tournaments that are factually correct:
* "Current tournament name (XXX Masters)"; which in this particular case would lead to
* "Sony Ericsson Open (])"
This would also avoid wikilinking to a redirect which is discouraged at FACs (as ] does). Also, I don't understand the inconsistency of Tennis Expert: uses different names for the Miami Masters. That is rather confusing. Well, I don't expect that any of this will be taken seriously, even it n>>1 support it and one doesn't. --''']''', '']'' 23:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:@Tennis expert- If you carefully notice my links above, I am linking it to Miami-Dade county in my links and only hiding it by piping it with Miami, which I believe is a valid move because Miami-Dade county is very commonly referred to as Miami as well. I fail to understand why you choose to put your personal preferences above understanding of a common reader. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 01:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


8. '''Doh''' (Doha) - '''QO''' or '''QA''' or '''QT''' for Qatar Open
::Your premise is incorrect. Why are you personally opposed to "Miami-Dade County"? That's the official, factual, legal name of the county, not "Miami County". ] (]) 11:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


9. '''Dub''' (Dubai) - '''DC''' or '''DU''' or '''DB''' for Dubai Championships
:::I've zero personal preference on the entire matter. I'm trying to reach a solution that is conducive on two levels as I have mentioned above. And please check the links carefully: ], ]. I'm linking to Miami-Dade County in the second term. I'm only ] it with Miami, once again because Miami-Dade County is not a commonly known entity. I'm imploring you to show some level of compromise here and meet me halfway. The linking is factually and geographically correct. Only the appearance is slightly altered, and which is politically correct (no pun intended) by the way, to meet the second requirement. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 12:38, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


10. '''Ind''' (Indian Wells) - '''IW''' for Indian Wells Open
::::If you have zero personal preference, then you shouldn't mind using the correct "Miami-Dade County" and not the incorrect "Miami County". I don't know why I have to continue saying this, but Misplaced Pages should reflect the true facts. Key Biscayne is in "Miami-Dade County". There is no such thing as "Miami County". Therefore, piping to "Miami County" should not be done. ] (]) 20:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


11. '''Mad''' (Madrid) - '''MA''' or '''MD''' for Madrid Open
:::::Despite my lack of preference, I have some sensitivity towards the common reader. And I'm not referring it to as "Miami County" but simply as "Miami", which is completely common way of referring to Miami-Dade County. And don't forget that this achieves the goal of pinpointing the location of the obscure Key Biscayne. What I don't understand is why you have excessive and compulsive insistence on geographical accuracy at this place where it is perfectly feasible to convey the information in the ] that satisfies our major concerns. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 20:34, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


12. '''Mia''' (Miami) - '''MI''' for Miami Open
:What are you talking about, HJensen? ] (]) 11:18, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:: I thought that was rather clear. But I will try again:
::a) A new suggestion (to be used for all Masters Tournaments). OFFICIAL TOURNAMET NAME followed by its ATP MASTER SERIES NAME
:: b) Expressing a concern that in your edit you let "Miami Masters" be the name at some places, not at others (where you use Key Biscayne which is not the name).
:: c) Referring to a wikilinking issue. Using a link like ], as you have used in the Nadal article, is effectively a hidden link to a redirect, as "Sony Ericsson Open" is redirected to "Miami Masters". That is confusing the reader (and is not recommended by the MOS, see ]—and yes, I know it is a guideline not a policy; but I think guidelines should be ignored for very good reasons).
:: d) I end by anticipating that my input will not be taken seriously. --''']''', '']'' 13:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


13. '''Mon''' (Monte Carlo) - '''MO''' or '''MC''' for Monte-Carlo Masters
:::I know I should probably wait for Tennis expert's response, but I can't help but say this. While you (Tennis expert) are continually asking me to remain factual and legal, I am appalled to notice that you are circumventing clear cut guidelines to suit your personal judgments and whims. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 14:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


14. '''Mos''' (Moscow) - '''KC''' for Kremlin Cup
:::Yes, you should have waited, LeaveSleaves. I still have no idea what you are talking about, HJensen. Post a diff of an edit I've made to make yourself clear to me. If you don't like ], then I suggest ]. That should solve your easter egg guideline concern. By the way, none of the following is an "ATP MASTERS SERIES NAME" of a tournament: ], ], ]. So, again, I have no idea what you're talking about. ] (]) 20:22, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


15. '''Gua''' (Guadalajara) - '''GU''' or '''GO''' or '''GD''' for Guadalajara
::::Well, I partially retract my comments. <s>But I'd like to point out that your solution does not fit EGG. You are using redirect as a the main link, a usage which is discouraged.</s> <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 20:48, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


16. '''Par''' (Paris) - '''PA''' for Paris Masters
:::::Retract further. Looks like I misread things. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 20:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


17. '''Phi''' (Philadelphia) - '''PH''' or '''VP''' for Virginia Slims of Philadelphia
::::: I did provide a link to your edit I commented on. If you don't understand this and the rest I have stated twice, I am sorry. I don't want to repeat myself again. If anybody else wants to comment on my suggestion they are more than welcome. (Why "]" should solve an Easter egg concern is beyond me - the reader is led to the "Miami Masters" article - but you need not respond.) --''']''', '']'' 22:19, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


18. '''Rom''' (Rome) - '''IT''' for Italian Open
::::::No, you didn't. You provided a link to a ''previous version of the article'', not to the ''diff of an edit I made''. I can't see what edit of mine you're objecting to without seeing the exact diff of that edit. But if you don't want to clarify your objection, you of course don't have to. As for the easter egg problem, the "tournament in Key Biscayne, Florida" is the tournament described in the "Miami Masters" article; therefore, problem solved. ] (]) 22:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::: No, it does not. It is still an easter egg. And do you seriously suggest to introduce "tournament in Key Biscayne, Florida" in the performance timeline tables? If so, I would object (not that I think my opinion matters).--''']''', '']'' 07:24, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


19. '''San''' (San Diego) - '''SD''' or '''SC''' or '''SO''' for San Diego Open, Southern California Open
At least could we stop making such changes while we are discussing this? I mean, suddently, ] changed the tournaments name on ] to sponsored style again ()). We are not reaching anything this way. ] (]) 21:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


20. '''Sha''' (Shanghai) - '''SH''' for Shanghai Masters
===It "is" Miami...ATP says so===


21. '''Tok''' (Tokyo) - '''PP''' for Pan Pacific Open
Just joined you guys, the tournament ''is in'' Key Biscane, okay, but it is called Miami 1000/Masters, this is what the ATP calls it and this is what the TV shows, and the commentators say (official ATP English audio), someone please fill me in with the update and the summary of the discussion, from what I understand from the Misplaced Pages rules, the following is needed, a reference, and consensus, and of course no socket-puppets. From the ATP tournament profile, "Sony Ericsson Open | ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Miami, FL, U.S.A. | March 25 - April 5, 2009"


22. '''Wuh''' (Wuhan) - '''WO''' or '''WU''' for Wuhan Open
Key Biscayne is an island located in '''Miami'''-Dade County, Florida, United States, may be that's the reason behind the ATP calling it Miami, that could be a reason, but we need to stick to sources, stick to the ATP please. (The county seat is the City of Miami.)


23. '''Zur''' (Zurich) - '''ZU''' or '''ZO''' for Zurich Open
Also from the ATP website: Rafael Nadal, who is coming off his 13th ATP World Tour Masters 1000 title at the BNP Paribas Open in Indian Wells, looks to win his first title at the Sony Ericsson Open. The two-time '''Miami''' finalist is looking to become the sixth different player (since 1991) to accomplish the Indian Wells-Miami title sweep.
:Note:
:Added the missing Chicago and Guadalajara (now defunct) to the list. ] (]) 23:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
:CH is proposed twice for China Open and Charleston Open. ] (]) 23:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
:::Several are proposed twice as I didn't know what was best. ] (]) 00:37, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
::::Any other abbreviations you would like to propose or is that it? ] (]) 13:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
::::If not, then let's vote on it. Which abbreviations do you opt for? ] (]) 01:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
:Added Monte Carlo, Shanghai and Paris. ] (]) 00:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Pinging {{ping|Krmohan|Crows22|Wolbo|Unnamelessness}} to chip in. Which names and abbreviations would you replace them with? ] (]) 23:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
:I am not a tennis fan, so I don't have a clue about the column headers. 2-letter abbreviations would make the table less wide. That is a good thing. --] (]) 22:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
::I too am a proponent of narrow tables. The less horizontal scrolling the better. ] (]) 22:35, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
:::So if we do our best to make it two letters I added one set of choices above. And I think it should be Zurich since that is the English usage at wikipedia. ] (]) 23:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)


{{od}}It's not a big deal but in order I think I'd go with:
The bold to show my point, no shouting here what so ever, make Misplaced Pages better and please stop the wars.
*1.CN, 2.GE, 3.FL, 4.CA, 5.CH, 6.<s>AC</s>VC, 7.CI, 8.<s>QT</s>QA, 9.DU, 10.IW, 11.MA, 12.MI, 13.MC, 14.KC, 15.GD, 16.PA, 17.PH, 18.IT, 19.SD, 20.SH, 21.PP, 22.WU, 23.ZU ] (]) 07:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
:I propose the following abbr:
{{flatlist|
#CN
#GE
#FL
#CA
#CH
#VC
#CI
#QA
#DU
#IW
#MA
#MI
#MC
#KC
#GU
#PA
#PH
#IT
#SC
#SH
#PP
#WU
#ZU
}}
:] (]) 14:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
::Two items I was just looking at. China already has an official country code of CN, so I think more people would be familiar with equating China Open with CN, which leaves CH for Charleston. Likewise the country code for Qatar is QA so I will change my Qatar to QA also. ] (]) 18:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
:::I changed mine to CN and CH, respectively. Short names not yet decided upon:
:::6. VC or AC; 15. GD or GU; 19. SD or SC? ] (]) 20:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
::::I'm fine with yours. Only question in looking at it is SC. Not because it doesn't work well with Southern California Open, but that article was recently changed to ]. The chart you have here is from 1990 onwards and the San Diego event was only a 1000 level from 2004-2007, and in that time it always had San Diego in the title. In fact from 1990 through today, only in 2013 was it called the Southern California Open. Because of the recent page move to San Diego Open (tennis) which these events will link to, it should probably be at SD or SO. I would personally stick with SD. Otherwise VC and GU are fine. I think I went with GD because some will not know how to spell Guadalajara and GD seemed to roll off the the tongue better for me. I had no clue what to do with the Virginia Slims of Chicago/ Ameritech Cup. I didn't want another "C" issue. VC I think works better now that I think of it. ] (]) 20:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::Let's stick with the events' current names and use abbreviations according to those. SD, GD (valid argument about others not knowing how to spell it - even though only contested twice; now defunct), AC...until they change again.
:::::Because we are changing the names events, all 4 stat and record articles are using the event's names by city, I would leave the rest of the articles tables unchanged, maybe add something in lead along the lines of "The following is a list of the events played by sponsor name and city: <and then you list them of in one order or another> WTA German Open (Berlin),...Italian Open (Rome),..Virginia Slims of Florida (Boca Raton), etc." What do you think? ] (]) 21:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::It's not my first choice, but yes we can also keep it as is. I would only put the sponsor name if we do at the main tournament page, which is almost never unless the sponsor name is the only name it ever had here. Also if you change to two letters, and all they are is the first two letters of a city name, the second letter should not be capitalized. CN sure, two word names like Indian Wells (IW) or San Diego (SD or Sa), but Rome would be Ro, Guadalahara would be GD or Gu. VC but Be. And what do we do with the Qatar Open? put it at Do for Doha? It is a bit strange that these are the only type of charts that do not use the tournament name. I find it confusing but I guess others don't. ] (]) 23:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::The {{sum|2024-1990}} transcluded charts at ] and ] from the yearly pages and the 4x records and statistics pages all use the city name instead of the tournament, i.e. sponsorship name. I purposefully added the events' cities to save up on space in the charts — for conciseness, really.
:::::::The problem with the main 2 pages is that they contain {{sum|2024-1990}} transcluded charts each. If we, let's say, change the city name to the current tournament's name, this would then require constant updating whenever a tournament changes its name in the future. That's I am hesitant on renaming them...it requires maintenance. With the current city names it's no problem. Even Cincy was once contested in a different city but still only Cincinnati is listed, for consistency and to avoid confusion.
:::::::If we use the name of the tournament at the time it was played, it would confuse everyone. So many events went through numerous sponsorship name changes over the years that listing them all for any tournament would be inefficient.
:::::::This is why I am fine with listing the full names in the lead of the 2 main and 4 records pages as a compromise. If that is okay with you? Otherwise, I am not getting involved in changing the event names. Plus, even atp/wta refer to them by their city names when listing records (Iga's Madrid-Rome double; Nadal's Canada-Cincinnati double, etc.).
:::::::With consensus you might get them to be renamed, but don't count my vote. ] (]) 00:12, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::As far as the abbreviations is concerned, I have concocted this prototype:
:::::::{{flatlist|
:::::::*'''CA''' (])
:::::::*'''CH''' (])
:::::::*'''CI''' (])
:::::::*'''CN''' (])
:::::::*'''DU''' (])
:::::::*'''FL''' (])
:::::::*'''GD''' (])
:::::::*'''GE''' (])
:::::::*'''IT''' (])
:::::::*'''IW''' (])
:::::::*'''KC''' (])
:::::::*'''MA''' (])
:::::::*'''MC''' (])
:::::::*'''MI''' (])
:::::::*'''PA''' (])
:::::::*'''PH''' (])
:::::::*'''PP''' (])
:::::::*'''QA''' (])
:::::::*'''SD''' (])
:::::::*'''SH''' (])
:::::::*'''VC''' (])
:::::::*'''WU''' (])
:::::::*'''ZU''' (])
}}
:::::::Thoughts? ] (]) 00:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Whatever on this one. However those cites initials should each absolutely link to the events so you have the same issue of events name changes. I don't know what the worry is though since every time an event name changes the old name is redirected. And I never said to use the event name at the time it was played with sponsorships. We would use the general common name. The Ameritech Cup is a sponsorship name that we try not to use... but that's really the only name we have for that event. Virginia Slims is also a sponsorship name but it is what it is. ] (]) 04:22, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::So, what do you propose then? We revert to the original version (] (outdated) version below) or replace the current one with the one above, listing only events pertinent to the discipline or keep the glossary/legend as is? I wikilinked the above events.
:::::::::{{flatlist|
:::::::::*'''Bei''' (Beijing)
:::::::::*'''Ber''' (Berlin)
:::::::::*'''Boc''' (Boca Raton)
:::::::::*'''Can''' (Canada)
:::::::::*'''Cha''' (Charleston)
:::::::::*'''Cin''' (Cincinnati)
:::::::::*'''Doh''' (Doha)
:::::::::*'''Dub''' (Dubai)
:::::::::*'''Ind''' (Indian Wells)
:::::::::*'''Mad''' (Madrid)
:::::::::*'''Mia''' (Miami)
:::::::::*'''Mos''' (Moscow)
:::::::::*'''Phi''' (Philadelphia)
:::::::::*'''Rom''' (Rome)
:::::::::*'''San''' (San Diego)
:::::::::*'''Tok''' (Tokyo)
:::::::::*'''Wuh''' (Wuhan)
:::::::::*'''Zur''' (Zürich)
:::::::::}}
:::::::::] (]) 23:46, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::You will certainly never see me advocate for a city name over an event name. If the column header says tournament or championship we would not do that. It is wrong to list a city under a tournament headers. We corrected many charts that did this long ago, like the performance timelines. These were so stewy, and to be honest a lot of original research, that they were ignored I guess. I just thought that if they were being be updated it would be a good time to fix the city names under the tournament header. ] (]) 08:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::Okay, event name it is. I just remembered the 3 defunct masters events: Stuttgart, Stockholm and Hamburg in ]. I assume we just use ], ] and ], respectively, correct? What about abbreviations for them? What do you propose? ] (]) 11:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::Hamburg European Open should be Hamburg Masters. During the time as a 1000 level it was German Open and Hamburg Masters. Then from '09 to '18 it was back to German Open. It's now . The men's event has never been called the Hamburg European Open. Our article is broken with the Hamburg European Open title and needs some fixing. That's a . ] (]) 18:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::And for abbreviations? I suggest something like this: EU or EO for Eurocard Open, ST for Stockholm Open and HA for Hamburg Masters (at the time it was played). ] (]) 20:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Yeppers. I'd go with EU. ] (]) 20:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Like so? ] (]) 22:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::{{flatlist|
:::::::::::::::*'''CA''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''CH''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''CI''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''CN''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''DU''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''EU''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''FL''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''GD''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''GE''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''HA''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''IT''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''IW''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''KC''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''MA''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''MC''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''MI''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''PA''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''PH''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''PP''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''QA''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''SD''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''SH''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''ST''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''VC''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''WU''' (])
:::::::::::::::*'''ZU''' (])
:::::::::::::::}}
:::::::::::::::::Boy that sure looks great! If we go with VC shouldn't it then be ]? Otherwise AC for Ameritech Cup. ] (]) 23:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::Fixed. ] (]) 09:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
:::{{od|15}}
Here is the final product: ] (]) 22:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
;ATP Singles
{{flatlist|
*'''CA''' (])
*'''CI''' (])
*'''EU''' (])
*'''HA''' (])
*'''IT''' (])
*'''IW''' (])
*'''MA''' (])
*'''MC''' (])
*'''MI''' (])
*'''PA''' (])
*'''SH''' (])
*'''ST''' (])
}}
{|
| {{legend inline|#EAECF0|Active tournaments}}
| {{legend inline|#eaecf0|text={{small|–}}|{{small|Events not played}}}}
|-
| {{legend inline|#0|Defunct tournaments}}
| {{legend inline|#0|text={{small|–}}|{{small|Events not won}}}}
|}


<div class="covid19-container" role="region" tabindex="0">
And lastly, from : ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Miami, FL, U.S.A. | Sony Ericsson Open | ATP World Tour Masters 1000 ] (]) 21:56, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
<div style="overflow-x:auto>
{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}{{table alignment}}
{| class="wikitable sortable mw-datatable defaultcenter col1left sort-under-center sticky-col1" style="margin:0; font-size: 90%"
|-
! scope="col" |Player{{efn|name=multichamps}}
! scope="col" |Titles<ref>{{Cite web |title=Ultimate Tennis Statistics – Most Masters Titles |url=https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/record?recordId=MastersTitles |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221101235102/https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/record?recordId=MastersTitles |archive-date=2022-11-01 |website=www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com}}</ref>
! scope="col" | IW
! scope="col" | MI
! scope="col" | MC
! scope="col" | MA
! scope="col" | IT
! scope="col" | CA
! scope="col" | CI
! scope="col" | SH
! scope="col" | PA
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent" |ST
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent" |EU
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent" |HA
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent" |MA{{Efn|Madrid was held as the 8th event between 2002–08 before being replaced by Shanghai in 2009.}}
! scope="col" |Years
! scope="col" |Strike<br />Rate{{efn|name=strikerate}}
|-
|{{flagicon|SRB}} ''']'''
| 40
| '''5''' || '''6''' || 2 || 3 || 6 || 4 || 3 || '''4''' || '''7'''||{{n/a|–}} || {{n/a|–}} || – || –
| 2007–2023 || ''']'''
|-
|{{flagicon|ESP}} ''']'''
| 36
| 3 || – || '''11''' || '''4'''|| '''10''' || '''5''' || 1 || – || –||{{n/a|–}} || {{n/a|–}} || 1 || 1
| 2005–2021|| rowspan="4"| 7/9
|-–
|{{flagicon|SUI}} ]
| 28
| '''5''' || 4 || – || 2 || – || 2 || '''7''' || 2 || 1|| {{n/a|–}} || – || '''4''' || 1
| 2002–2019
|-
|{{flagicon|USA}} ]
| 17
| 1 || '''6''' || – || {{n/a|–}}|| 1 || 3 || 3 || {{n/a|–}} || 2
|–|| – || – ||1
| 1990–2004
|-
|{{flagicon|GBR}} ''']'''
| 14
| – || 2 || – || 1 || 1 || 3 || 2 || 3 || 1|| {{n/a|–}} || {{n/a|–}} || – ||1
| 2008–2016
|-
|{{flagicon|USA}} ]
| 11
| 2 || 3 || – || {{n/a|–}} || 1 || – || 3 ||{{n/a|–}} || 2
|–|| – || – || {{n/a|–}}
| 1992–2000 || 5/9
|-
|{{flagicon|AUT}} ]
| 8
| – || 1 || 3 || {{n/a|–}} || 3 || – || – ||{{n/a|–}} || –|| – || 1 || – || {{n/a|–}}
| 1990–1997 || rowspan="2"| 4/9
|-
|{{flagicon|USA}} ]
| 7
| 3 || 1 || – || {{n/a|–}} || – || 1 || 2 || {{n/a|–}} || –|| –|| – || –|| –
| 1990–1997
|-
|{{flagicon|RUS}} ''']'''
| rowspan="2 | 6
| – || 1 || – || – || 1 || 1 || 1 || 1|| 1||{{n/a|–}} || {{n/a|–}} || {{n/a|–}} ||{{n/a|–}}
| 2019–2023 || 6/9
|-
|{{flagicon|GER}} ''']'''
| – || – || – || 2 || 2 || 1 || 1 || –|| –|| {{n/a|–}} ||{{n/a|–}} || {{n/a|–}} ||{{n/a|–}}
| 2017–2024|| 4/9
|-
|{{flagicon|GER}} ]
| rowspan="7 | 5
| – || – || – || {{n/a|–}} || – || – || – ||{{n/a|–}} || 1|| '''3''' || 1 || – || {{n/a|–}}
| 1990–1996 || 2/9
|-
|{{flagicon|USA}} ]
| 2 || 1 || – || {{n/a|–}} || 2 || – || – ||{{n/a|–}} || –
|–|| – || – || {{n/a|–}}
| 1991–1993 || 3/9
|-
|{{flagicon|CHI}} ]
| 1 || 1 || 1 || {{n/a|–}} || 1 || – || – || {{n/a|–}} || –|| {{n/a|–}}
|–|| 1 || –
| 1997–1999 || 5/9
|-
|{{flagicon|BRA}} ]
| – || – || 2 || {{n/a|–}} || 1 || – || 1 || {{n/a|–}} || –|| {{n/a|–}} || – || 1 || –
| 1999–2001 || 4/9
|-
|{{flagicon|RUS}} ]
| – || – || – || – || – || 1 || – || – || 3|| {{n/a|–}} || –
|–|| 1
| 2000–2004 || rowspan="2"| 3/9
|-
|{{flagicon|USA}} ]
| – || 2 || – || – || – || 1 || 2 || – || – || {{n/a|–}}
|–
|–
|–|| 2003–2010
|-
|{{flagicon|ESP}} ''']'''
| 2 || 1 || – || 2 || – || – || – || – || –|| {{n/a|–}} || {{n/a|–}} || {{n/a|–}} || {{n/a|–}}
| 2022–2024|| 3/9
|-
|{{flagicon|SWE}} ]
| rowspan="3 | 4
| 1 || – || – || {{n/a|–}} || – || – || 1 || {{n/a|–}} || 1
|–|| – || 1 || {{n/a|–}}
| 1990–1992 || 4/9
|-
|{{flagicon|UKR}} ]
| – || – || 1 || {{n/a|–}} || – || – || – || {{n/a|–}} || –
|–|| – || 3 || {{n/a|–}}
| 1994–1997 || 2/9
|-
|{{flagicon|ESP}} ]
| – || – || 2 || –|| 1 || – || – || – || –|| {{n/a|–}} || –
|–||1
| 2001–2003 || 3/9
|-
!Player
!Titles
!IW
!MI
!MC
!MA
!IT
!CA
!CI
!SH
!PA
!ST
!EU
!HA
!MA
!Years
!SR
|}
</div>
79 champions in 303 <!--(2024-1990) {years} 9 {tournaments} – 8 {cancelled} – X {season's tournaments not played yet}--> events as of '''2024 Rome'''.
{{notelist|refs=
{{efn|name=multichamps|Players with 4+ titles listed. Active players and records are denoted in '''bold'''.}}
{{efn|name=strikerate|Player's best career strike rate of winning the Masters series events.}}
}}
{{reftalk}}


;ATP Doubles
:I completely agree. Having watched tennis for about a year now and getting familiar with all the tournament names I have noticed that the official tournament name and the masters series event names differ. The name that should be used is Miami since it is the Masters event name and that is what should be listed in players' statistical table under the heading of Tournament. For the 5th day now i have watched the Miami Masters on tv here in Africa and never once have i heard them mention Key Biscayne as the tournament name.
{{flatlist|
*'''CA''' (])
*'''CI''' (])
*'''EU''' (])
*'''HA''' (])
*'''IT''' (])
*'''IW''' (])
*'''MA''' (])
*'''MC''' (])
*'''MI''' (])
*'''PA''' (])
*'''SH''' (])
*'''ST''' (])
}}
{|
| {{legend|#EAECF0|Active tournaments}}
| {{legend|#0|Defunct tournaments}}
|}


<div class="covid19-container" role="region" tabindex="0">
:Therefore i think all players profiles should list Miami instead of Key Biscayne as i have noticed this error in ], ] and ] pages just to name a few I have checked for. ] 12:26, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
<div style="overflow-x:auto>
{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}{{table alignment}}
{| class="wikitable sortable mw-datatable defaultcenter col1left sort-under-center sticky-col1" style="margin:0; font-size: 90%"
|-
! scope="col" |Player
! scope="col" |Titles
! scope="col" | IW
! scope="col" | MI
! scope="col" | MC
! scope="col" | MA
! scope="col" | IT
! scope="col" | CA
! scope="col" | CI
! scope="col" | SH
! scope="col" | PA
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent" |ST
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent" |EU
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent" |HA
! scope="col" |Years
! scope="col" |Strike
Rate
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Bryan, Bob" |{{flagicon|USA}} ]
| rowspan="2" | 39
|2||'''<u>6</u>'''||<u>'''6'''</u>||'''<u>5</u>'''||<u>'''4'''</u>||<u>'''5'''</u>||<u>'''5'''</u>||1||<u>'''4'''</u>||- || - ||1
|2002–2019
| rowspan="3" |'''9/9'''
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Bryan, Mike" |{{flagicon|USA}} ]||2||<u>'''6'''</u>||<u>'''6'''</u>||<u>'''5'''</u>||<u>'''4'''</u>||<u>'''5'''</u>||'''<u>5</u>'''||1||<u>'''4'''</u>||- || - ||1
|2002–2019
|-
| style="text-align: left; data-sort-value=" Nestor, Daniel" |{{flagicon|CAN}} ]
| 28
|'''<u>4</u>'''||1||2||<u>'''5'''</u>||<u>'''4'''</u>||2||<u>'''5'''</u>||1||1||- || - ||'''<u>3</u>'''
|1996–2015
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Woodbridge, Todd" |{{flagicon|AUS}} ]
| 18
|1||4||2|| - || - ||- ||4|| - ||1||'''<u>3</u>'''||1||2
|1992–2003
|7/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Knowles, Mark" |{{flagicon|BAH}} ]
| 17
|<u>'''4'''</u>||1|| - ||3||2||2||3|| - ||-|| - ||- ||2
|1993–2009
|6/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Mirnyi, Max" |{{flagicon|BLR}} ]
| rowspan="2" | 16
| - ||4||2||1||1||1||2||1||2|| - ||1||1
|2000–2011
|8/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Bhupathi, Mahesh" |{{flagicon|IND}} ]|| - ||1||1||1||2||<u>'''5'''</u>||2|| - ||3|| - ||- ||1
|1997–2012
|7/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Bjorkman, Jonas" |{{flagicon|SWE}} ]
| rowspan="2" | 15
|1||2||3|| - || - ||1||3|| - ||2|| - ||1||2
|1998–2008
|8/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Zimonjic, Nenad" |{{flagicon|SRB}} ]|| - ||- ||5||2||3||2||1|| - ||1|| - ||- ||1
|2004–2014
| 6/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Woodforde, Mark" |{{flagicon|AUS}} ]
| 14
|1||4|| - ||- || - ||- ||4|| - ||-||'''<u>3</u>'''||1||1
|1989–2000
| 5/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Paes, Leander" |{{flagicon|IND}} ]
| 13
|1||3||1|| - ||1||2||2||2||1||- || - ||-
|1997–2012
|8/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Haarhuis, Paul" |{{flagicon|NLD}} ]
| 10
| - ||1||2|| - ||1||1|| - ||- ||3|| - ||1||1
|1993–1998
|7/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Melo, Marcelo" |{{flagicon|BRA}} ''']'''
| 9
| - ||1|| - ||1||- ||1||1||'''<u>3</u>'''||2||- || - || -
|2013–2018
|6/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Eltingh, Jacco" |{{flagicon|NLD}} ]
| rowspan="3" | 8
| - ||1||2|| - ||1|| - ||- || - ||3|| - ||1||-
|1993–1998
| rowspan="2" |5/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Mektić, Nikola" |{{flagicon|CRO}} ''']'''||2||1||2||1||2|| - ||- || - ||-|| - ||- || -
|2018–2024
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Granollers, Marcel" |{{flagicon|ESP}} ''']'''|| - ||- || - ||1||3||1||1||1 ||1||- || - || -
|2012–2024
| 6/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Kafelnikov, Yevgeny" |{{flagicon|RUS}} ]
| rowspan="4" | 7
|2|| - ||1|| - ||2||1|| - ||- ||-||- || - ||1
|1994–2003
| 5/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Herbert, Herbert" |{{flagicon|FRA}} ''']'''||1||1||1|| - ||1||1||1|| - ||1|| - ||- ||-
|2016–2019
| rowspan="2" |7/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Mahut, Nicolas " |{{flagicon|FRA}} ''']'''||1||1||1|| - ||1||1||1|| - ||1|| - ||- ||-
|2016–2019
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Zeballos, Horacio" |{{flagicon|ARG}} ''']'''||1 || - ||- ||1||2||1||1||1 ||-||- || - || -
|2019–2024
| 6/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Ferreira, Wayne" |{{flagicon|RSA}} ]
| rowspan="3" | 6
|2||1||1|| - ||1|| - ||- || - ||-|| - ||- ||1
|1991–2003
| rowspan="2" |5/9
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Dodig, Ivan" |{{flagicon|CRO}} ''']'''|| - ||- ||1 || - || - ||1||2||1||1||- || - ||-
|2013–2023
|-
| style="text-align: left;" data-sort-value="Bopanna, Rohan" |{{flagicon|IND}} ''']'''||1 || 1 ||1 ||1||-||-||-||- ||2||- || - || -
|2011–2024
| 5/9
|- style="background:#EAECF0; font-weight:bold; text-align:center" class="sortbottom"
!Player
!Titles!!IW!!MI!!MC!!MA!!IT!!CA!!CI!!SH!!PA!!ST!!EU!!HA!!Years!!SR
|}</div>
* Players with 6+ titles. Active players and tournament records indicated in '''<u>bold</u>'''.
* 171 champions in 303 events as of '''2024 Rome'''.
* Masters' time slots indicated with 1st–9th column names.


;WTA Singles
:: I also agree. I do think this should apply only to the men's events and not the womens though. It seems to me to a common usgae issue, and the ATP has successfully pushed the idea of the 'Masters' series of events, whereas there is no such equivalent (i.e. no one talks about the 'prestigous Tier I series'). The Masters Series (ATP) events should be referred to by their common usage name (the name that the ATP uses and that the general public knows them by) and the WTA should use the general, current sponsor name (as no overriding 'Series' identity exists).
{{flatlist|
*'''CA''' (])
*'''CH''' (])
*'''CI''' (])
*'''CN''' (])
*'''DU''' (])
*'''FL''' (])
*'''GE''' (])
*'''IT''' (])
*'''IW''' (])
*'''KC''' (])
*'''MA''' (])
*'''MI''' (])
*'''PH''' (])
*'''PP''' (])
*'''QA''' (])
*'''SD''' (])
*'''WU''' (])
*'''ZU''' (])
}}


{|
:: I do think though that commo usage applies to the women's events in terms of location, i.e. Miami, not Key Biscayne. This reflects both common usage, and a consistency with the men's events which seems generally preferable. ]] 15:57, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
| {{legend|#EAECF0|Active tournaments}}
| {{legend|#0|Defunct tournaments}}
|}


<div class="covid19-container" role="region" tabindex="0">
:::Anyone who believes that this tournament is being held in Miami instead of Key Biscayne is just plain wrong. We have discussed this several times before, and it is a fact that the tournament is located in Key Biscayne. As for what the news media is reporting, do a Google search and you will find that much of the media is reporting the correct location. See, e.g. . Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and should be factual, not reflect some marketing gurus who want to mislead people into thinking that the tournament is in downtown Miami or something. ] (]) 16:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
<div style="overflow-x:auto>
{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}{{table alignment}}
{| class="wikitable sortable mw-datatable defaultcenter col1left sort-under-center sticky-col1" style="margin:0; font-size: 90%"
|-
! scope="col" |Player
! scope="col" |Titles
! scope="col" | DU
! scope="col" | QA
! scope="col" | IW
! scope="col" | MI
! scope="col" | MA
! scope="col" | IT
! scope="col" | CA
! scope="col" | CI
! scope="col" | WU
! scope="col" | CN
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| FL
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| CH
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| GE
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| SD
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| PH
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| KC
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| PP
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| ZU
! scope="col" |Years
|-
| {{sort|Williams.|{{flagicon|USA}} Serena Williams}}
|23
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>8</u>'''
|2
|'''<u>4</u>'''
|3
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1999–2016
|-
| {{sort|Hingis.|{{flagicon|SUI}} Martina Hingis}}
|17|| - || -
|1
|2
| -
|2
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|1
| -
| -
|1
|'''<u>5</u>'''
|1
|1997–2007
|-
| {{sort|Graf.|{{flagicon|GER}} Steffi Graf}}
|15
| - || -
|1
|3
| -
| -
|2|| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
|1
|'''<u>5</u>'''
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
|1990–1996
|-
| {{sort|Sharapova.|{{flagicon|RUS}} Maria Sharapova}}
|14
| -
|1
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|1
|3
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|2
|1
|2005–2015
|-
| {{sort|Davenport.|{{flagicon|USA}} Lindsay Davenport}}
|11
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|4
|'''<u>4</u>'''
|1997–2005
|-
| {{sort|Henin.|{{flagicon|BEL}} Justine Henin}}
| rowspan="3" | 10
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|3
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
|2002–2007
|-
| {{sort|Azarenka.|{{flagicon|BLR}} Victoria Azarenka}}
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|3
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2009–2020
|-
| {{sort|Świątek.|{{flagicon|POL}} Iga Świątek}}
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|1
| 1
|3
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| - || - || -
| -
|2021–2024
|-
| {{sort|Martínez.|{{flagicon|ESP}} Conchita Martínez}}
| rowspan="5" | 9
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>4</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|2
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
|1993–2000
|-
| {{sort|Seles.|{{flagicon|USA}} Monica Seles}}
| - || -
| -
|2
| -
|2
|'''<u>4</u>'''|| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1990–2000
|-
| {{sort|Williams.|{{flagicon|USA}} Venus Williams}}
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|3
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|1998–2015
|-
| {{sort|Halep.|{{flagicon|ROU}} Simona Halep}}
|1
|1
|1
| -
|2
|1
|3
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| - || -
| -
| -
|2014–2022
|-
| {{sort|Kvitová.|{{flagicon|CZE}} Petra Kvitová}}
| -
|1
| -
|1
|'''<u>3</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2011–2023
|-
| {{sort|Clijsters.|{{flagicon|BEL}} Kim Clijsters}}
| rowspan="1" | 7
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|2
| -
|1
|1
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2003–2010
|-
| {{sort|Sánchez Vicario.|{{flagicon|ESP}} Arantxa Sánchez Vicario}}
| rowspan="4" | 6
| - || -
| -
|2
| -
|1
|2|| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1992–1996
|-
| {{sort|Mauresmo.|{{flagicon|FRA}} Amélie Mauresmo}}
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2001–2005
|-
| {{sort|Janković.|{{flagicon|SRB}} Jelena Janković}}
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|2
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|2007–2010
|-
| {{sort|Wozniacki.|{{flagicon|DEN}} Caroline Wozniacki}}
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2010–2018
|-
| {{sort|Sabatini.|{{flagicon|ARG}} Gabriela Sabatini}}
| rowspan="5" | 5
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -|| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1991–1992
|-
| {{sort|Pierce.|{{flagicon|FRA}} Mary Pierce}}
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
|1997–2005
|-
| {{sort|Safina.|{{flagicon|RUS}} Dinara Safina}}
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|1
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2008–2009
|-
| {{sort|Radwańska.|{{flagicon|POL}} Agnieszka Radwańska}}
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2011–2016
|-
| {{sort|Sabalenka.|{{flagicon|BLR}} Aryna Sabalenka}}
| -
|1
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2018–2023
|-style="background:#EAECF0; font-weight:bold; text-align:center" class="sortbottom"
!Player
!Titles!!DU!!QA!!IW!!MI!!MA!!IT!!CA!!CI!!WU!!CN!!FL!!CH!!GE!!SD!!PH!!KC!!PP!!ZU!!Years
|}</div></div>
* Players with 5+ titles. Active players and records are denoted in '''<u>bold</u>'''.
* 73 champions in 294 events as of '''2024 Rome'''.


;WTA Doubles
::::Dear TE, I agree with the correct location, but there is a ''tournament name'' we need to stick with, that's all, mention the location in the tournament page, that would be stating a fact, but not forcing a new tournament name (we need to contact the ATP for that). Would you rename this article's name: ]? ] (]) 23:23, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
{{flatlist|

*'''CA''' (])
:::::Your argument is specious. The tournament name is ''Sony Ericsson Open'', and if we had any common sense, the name of the Misplaced Pages article would be that, too. ] (]) 23:37, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''CH''' (])

*'''CI''' (])
::::::I'd have to disagree, because sponsors change, now BNP Paribas has what? 2 tournaments in 2009? <s>Irrelevant here.</s> It is not a matter of common sense sir. , wasn't a hard find. ] (]) 23:50, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''CN''' (])

*'''DU''' (])
:::::::I agree with Yosef1987 here, and it seems clear to me that Key Biscayne is, in common usage, considered a part of Miami; if I'm not mistaken it is considered a part of the 'Miami metropolitan area'. Additionally, we need to go with references and sources and those clearly favor Miami. Just look around. ]] 03:19, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''FL''' (])

*'''GD''' (])
:::::::Inaccuracy doesn't help anyone, Yosef1987. There is the ] in Paris and the ] in Indian Wells, California. ] (]) 07:46, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''GE''' (])

*'''IT''' (])
::::::Wherever KB is located, it is not the point, ''we have an official name'' (besides the ever changing sponsor name) that we need to stick to, cannot be a simpler option, if I may say something, with all my respect to all the wonderful editors here, those edits made without consensus and by a mere personal opinion, I consider it a destructive editing. To change a tournament name we'd need to contact the ATP for that. Again I mean the best for Wiki. And I hope we reach somewhere soon, because this really cannot be serious, for a second I thought maybe it was an April's fool joke. ] (]) 14:46, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''IW''' (])

*'''KC''' (])
Please read the note below the table on ], and I am sure there are more examples, it has nothing to do with a location, they don't hate KB, but they've chosen an official name for it, and that is a verifiable reference, as well as it IS played in KB, but we are talking about the tournament and not the place, a player wins Miami Masters and not KB Masters. I really didn't add anything new here, just confirming my point of just pointing out the real location only in the tournament's article itself. ] (]) 15:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''MA''' (])

*'''MI''' (])
====My 2 cents please====
*'''PH''' (])

*'''PP''' (])
Having just watched the QF between Fed and Rod, on the back of the court, where it says 2 big "Sony Ericsson", below it near the ground it '''says Miami all over the place'''
*'''QA''' (])

*'''SD''' (])
If there is a tournament in Cairo, Egypt and ATP decided to call it New York City Masters, for the encyclopedic entry, it would be named NYC masters, but it'd mention in the tournament's article that it is played in Cairo. I don't see Key Biscayne mentioned in the Miami Masters article ('''would you rename the article?'''); what I am saying is, mention it in the article's page, and that's it. And for what it's worth, '''Key Biscayne's county seat is the city of Miami'''. Stick to the official tournament names for an encyclopedia's sake. Now whoever is making those edits, would you please let me know in a clear fashion where I went wrong? And those who support/would like to add something, please do. Thank you! ] (]) 03:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''VC''' (])

*'''WU''' (])
Added '''bolds''', is not shouting, sticking out the points only. ] (]) 23:25, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''ZU''' (])

}}
====]====

Resolve disputes calmly, through civil discussion and ]-building on relevant discussion pages. There are several available options to request opinions from editors outside the dispute. Other dispute resolution mechanisms include ] or, after all other methods have been tried, ].

From what I know, stick with references, from governing bodies, official names exist besides the sponsors, as mentioned a above. ] (]) 00:00, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

:Adding a link to , this one from noted journalist ]. ]] 15:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

===Now what?===

If this is going no where for now, I'd suggest reverting the edits made, because clearly a consensus has been reached(???), and I doubt(???) we'd need a poll for such a thing.

* The case is not only with Miami Masters, but as demonstrated, with others
* There is an official tournament name (other than the ever changing sponsor name) that we need to stick to, as
* The correct location '''''must''''' be added to the tournaments' articles, that's for sure, and TE helped point out that
* From now on, as the rules say, we should discuss first before starting an edit-war
* Let's get to somewhere please quickly ] (]) 21:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

:You didn't ask any questions, which is apparently why you received no responses. In any event, the official name of the tournament according to the Association of Tennis Professionals is the . You linked to a webpage that merely provides a series of links based on tournament location, not based on tournament name. No where does that page say "Miami Masters". Also, the official ATP tournament calendar says . ] (]) 07:42, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

::I have asked for your input in the "Alone" section, anyway, the "calender", C&P: '''ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Miami''', the bold to show what was click-able, before FL, USA. Let's please not argue that there is only sponsors' names. Also where is Key Biscayne and Roquebrune-Cap-Martin (Monte-Carlo :)) and all the others. Also there is a drop down menu for the tournaments on the ATP website, check the naming.

::To sum up, it IS played in KB, okay, but the ATP chose to call it ''Miami Masters'' (de facto) and ''(who ever sponsors) 2009'', same for most of the tournaments, in the singles performance time-line tables, the column reads Tournament and not Location, and we cannot use a sponsor's name because by common sense they change every other year. What we would and should do, is mention Key Biscayne and Roquebrune-Cap-Martin and all the others in the tournament's articles, waiting for your feedback. ] (]) 13:15, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

::""Edit: The section is called "Now What?", and I got no response; until a consensus is met, all edits should be reverted, and if I am wrong, please let me know, because we cannot war and talk, and I, myself, don't war nor play games. ] (]) 14:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

:::(1) Encouraging others to edit war is disruptive and could get you blocked. Don't go down that path. (2) I have already demonstrated that the ATP did '''not''' choose to call this tournament the "Miami Masters". Why do you not understand what's specifically written on the ATP website? (3) The fact that the tournament sponsors change periodically is inconvenient but irrelevant. (4) I have no objection to your changing any tennis tournament article to reflect the true location of the tournament. In fact, I encourage you to do so because the change would reflect the factual basis of this encyclopedia. ] (]) 20:18, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

::::Encouraging others to edit war??????? Me?!!!! ] (]) 22:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
====Alone====

Am I the only one on this? I have changed it on Nadal's page, TE changed it back, without saying anything here. Please TE when you get here, the simple 4 points above, I need a direct reply to each one, thank you. ] (]) 12:59, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

:No, you are not alone in this. It seems to me that Mr. Expert is unwilling to budge on this, and that we should proceed with a rough consensus (dating back to January as seen above). I think that this is easily solved by modifying all Key Biscayne references to Miami, is as commmon usage among most tennis articles and the tours themselves, and include a note on the article page (which is already called 'Miami Masters'!) stating something along the lines of '...is played in Key Biscayne, a small village so-and-so miles off the coast of Miami'

:This solution is also easily applied to the various tournaments at which it is applicable. ]] 13:20, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

:::I have just checked the articles of the top 20 players in the world and all have been nicely changed to Miami Masters with all other masters series events using the word "Masters". This is the way it should stay. I have also become involved in the mediation for the Miami Masters. ] (]) 18:39, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

===ATTENTION===

], feel free to add yourself and sign. ] (]) 13:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
: Well that didn't work out, as Mr. Expert seems unwilling to mediate on this issue. Any more experienced users out there know what the next step should be? We should really address this issue with finality and then move on. ]] 16:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

::: If he has refused mediation and all the other things that sane people do, is it bad to request a block? He is disrupting our work, disregarding consensus and anything else we can do. Block? ] <big><big><font face=Stereofidelic>16:04, 7 April 2009 (UTC)</font face></big></big>

==== Can we have some sanity and resolution on this? ====
I just wish to note two things;

], your refusal to accept mediation on this long running dispute is both unhelpful and disruptive. You are not doing yourself or Misplaced Pages any favours in continuing this series of reverts against others wishes. Misplaced Pages can only work by consensus. Personal crusades, no matter how right you believe you are, ultimately get you nowhere. If you genuinely care about the content of these articles, then please accept mediation.

IP editor; I don't care who you are or if you have been previously blocked or not. Your jumping between IPs to edit war is a clear breach and evasion of Misplaced Pages rules and policies. That alone makes your contributions unwelcome and disruptive. If you genuinely care about the content of these articles, then please register an account and contribute to the discussion in an upfront manner without this edit warring. I would also urge other editors to refuse to engage this editor in discussion until they register. If, once they register, they prove to be a banned user, then so be it. If you disregard Misplaced Pages policy you lose the privilege of contributing to it. --<font color="purple">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 11:58, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:In addition I would urge fellow editor to look at the articles for the year-specific Miami Masters (], ], and ]) where TE is clearly acting in ] and disrespecting the opinions and processes of the community by making changes (Miami to Key Biscayne, of course) at a time when the community is trying to come to a consensus on the issue. Very bad form. ]] 12:29, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

::TE (or someone else, the history is not clear to me) did the harm again, on Nadal's page AFAIK, which part '''I''' don't get, don't we need consensus first?!!!! Please someone take an action. ] (]) 17:52, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:Excuse me, EO, but I'm under no obligation to accept formal mediation on this issue. Therefore, it's bad faith for you to claim disruption for exercising a right that Misplaced Pages plainly allows. The people who won't accept the fact that the tournament is held in Key Biscayne and the fact that the official name is the "Sony Ericsson Open" and the fact that "Miami Masters" is not the name of any tournament anywhere are just being irrational. This encyclopedia is about verifiable facts, not personal opinions. ] (]) 20:17, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

::. Perhaps you should write to them and put them right. Please go and read ]. Specifically where it says "''Use the most easily recognized name''" and "''Editors are '''strongly discouraged''' from editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial name to another.''" Your edits on ] are plainly disruptive as it results in a page being named one thing, and the article, with no explanation at all, calling it another. The reader is therefore left mystified. The name you prefer has only been in use since 2007 and common usage is still Miami Masters. The title "Sony Ericsson Open" is important, and should be mentioned in the lead. It should even be a redirect. But your actions are simply causing a confused mess.
::On the subject of mediation. If you refuse mediation what exactly do believe will bring about resolution? Do you think resolution will come about when everyone gives in and simply does what you want? Do you honestly believe this is likely? Do you think resolution will occur after six months of tiresome edit warring and everyone else gets sick of it? '''What do you believe is best, not for you, but for Misplaced Pages?'''
::And if you are so convinced that you are right, why do you believe mediation will not bring about a resolution on your terms? --<font color="purple">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 21:56, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Since when is a Google hit count conclusive? But if you want to play that game, while . Maybe you should consider sending corrective e-mails to the persons responsible for the roughly 700,000 hits. I'm certainly willing to go through ] to change the name of the article to "Sony Ericsson Open". Perhaps that would alleviate your "mystification" concerns - let me know, please. As for mediation, I've already said what the next course should be: article-by-article consensus building, given that there is no consensus here. ] (]) 07:31, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

::::Could you show me where you have sought consensus for your changes on articles? Apologies if you've being doing this, but I am having difficulty finding any amongst the hundreds of reverts in your edit history.
::::Please do not get diverted by some irrelevant Google hits count. My point was not to demonstrate that "Sony Ericsson Open" is wrong, or that "Miami Masters" is right. I'm saying that "Miami Masters" is the "''most easily recognized name''" as ]. It also has been the name of the article for some time, and should not be changed without good reason, as ]. Could address these points of policy, and explain why it does not apply here?
::::If you are willing to go through ] to change article titles, would it not make much more sense to leave your changes until this has happened?--<font color="purple">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 10:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::Google counts is never a reference (nor newspapers), I guess I don't have to explain how search engines work, secondly, you cannot use WP:RM because the name would change every other year, and we are not playing games here, if something affects all the tennis bio articles, it should be discussed here, not article-by-article, that would be just time consuming, and destructive, and please, all edits should be reverted to the original until a resolution is met anyhow. ] (]) 13:30, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::(1) When we talked about this before (see the archives), the conclusion was to use the name of the tournament as it existed at the time the tournament was held. In fact, most Misplaced Pages tournament articles use the sponsored names. The Sony Ericsson Open is among a handful of exceptions. (2) As far as ] is concerned, of course that's the right method for making a controversial change to an article name. You're not liking that procedure is irrelevant. And aside from that, I'm surprised that you would oppose WP:RM while being in favor of mediation. Care to explain? (3) Your not liking article-by-article consensus building is irrelevant and conflicts with the way Misplaced Pages works. Aside from that, a consensus for a particular article prevails over a consensus that purports to cover all articles. If you have any questions about that concept, let me know. ] (]) 20:25, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::You have presented no evidence whatsoever (except your personal opinion based on who-knows-what) that "Miami Masters" is the "most easily recognized name". You used Google to find a few newspaper articles to support your claim. When that was refuted, you said essentially to ignore Google. Well, you can't have it both ways. Try again. ] (]) 20:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::"Miami Masters" is the name with the longest history. Are you suggesting that a sponsored name in use only since 2007 is better known? But really, that's irrelevant. It's the current name of the article and so is the name that should be in use in the article. If you want to change it you need to show that "Sony Ericsson Open" is the most easily recognised. The burden of proof is on you.
::::::My use of the Google link, as I tried to explain before, had nothing to do with attempting to count hits. It was just a quick way of demonstrating that a great number of reliable sources disagree with your assertion that ""Miami Masters" is not the name of any tournament anywhere". Personally I have no strong preference, but claiming that it is a simple case of "I'm right, everyone else if wrong", is clearly not conducive to achieving consensus and flies in the face of the evidence.
::::::Now can we be rid of that red herring and address the questions I put, please?
::::::* What satisfactory resolution do you expect to get without mediation?
::::::* What is the good reason for changing the name of this article, as ]?
::::::* If you are willing to go through ] to change article titles, would it not make much more sense to leave your changes until this has happened? --<font color="purple">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 21:10, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::<s>Tennis_expert, to make things short and clear:
::::::*I am not sure what are you telling me, honest
::::::*Monte-Carlo/Roquebrune-Cap-Martin example, and many others as some editors has shown us
::::::*Despite of the correct location, ATP uses another famous name
::::::*Would be great if all is kept as before till we resolve this
::::::*Did Andy Murray win Key Biscayne Masters? Did Nadal win Roquebrune-Cap-Martin Masters last year?
::::::*All that for the performance time tables
::::::*Mentioning the correct location, as it is done for Monte-Carlo, must be made, for Miami and others, but to change its name, we'd need to contact ATP personnel
::::::*The Miami, as I said before, not only on the website, but on court, and the official TV coverage stats etc
::::::*As for the renaming, Miami Masters is the name for all the past/current tournaments, Sony Ericsson is the current sponsor ($$$)
::::::*BNP has now 2 Masters in 2009, one called BNP Paribas Open and the other BNP Paribas Masters!!!!
::::::''I am not being sarcastic'', trying to prove a point, that's all
::::::*As for the in-article namings, we are not discussing that now.</s> ] (]) 22:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::Edit: I have an inquiry now to TE, please discard what I stroke out, I'll get back to this soon. ] (]) 22:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

====Vandalism/Warring====

If this is considered vandalism, we can do it the right way, '''first''' warn him/her/they on their talk pages, and then, if they don't respond, ]. ] (]) 17:58, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:He has been ], do not add another warning. ] (]) 18:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

::He has undone my warning, and he is still not talking here. ] (]) 20:02, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:::No matter how many warnings we give him, he will ignore it. I don't usually call for this, but I think a ban is the right choice. Sorry. ] <big><big><font face=Stereofidelic>20:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)</font face></big></big>

::I've already talked here and in many other places about this issue. No consensus has ever been reached here, as the preceding discussions clearly show. So, that leaves article-by-article editing and discussion. I invite you to take up this issue in those places. And Yosef1987, stop plastering warnings that have no basis in fact. That's disruptive. ] (]) 20:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
:::I would second (third?) Alistairjh and Yosef, though (being relatively new) I don't know the procedure. He is being extremely disruptive and does not seem to be acting in good faith, IMO. ]] 20:47, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

::Tennis Expert, I am not being disruptive, I have the best intentions for this website, as for the warning, clearly there is an edit war, and you are not cooperating enough, the least I've asked is a direct answer to simple 4 points, you might very well explain yourself to everyone here by ], and I, would very much appreciate that, and if we still don't agree, we'd need a third-person's opinion, but not go ahead and start editing, if a consensus is not reached, I suppose you know Misplaced Pages more than I do, then take the right steps to convince all of us that you are right. Please do Misplaced Pages a favor, thank you very much and best regards, and your time is much appreciated. ] (]) 21:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Tennis Expert, about ] to ] (). The warning seems to be perfectly valid, so you cannot accuse ] of "plastering warnings that have no basis in fact" (see above). ] <big><big><font face=Stereofidelic>07:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC)</font face></big></big>

::::You don't know what you're talking about, which perhaps is due to your extreme youth. Just because a warning is given does not mean that it has any validity. If you have any questions about that concept, let me know. ] (]) 20:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Basically, procedure for solving this can be found ]. Apparantly ] is the last step, and hopefully something we won't have to consider. ] <big><big><font face=Stereofidelic>09:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC)</font face></big></big>

Keeping everything above board, just letting everyone know that I have (again) reverted TenEx's changes to the various Miami Masters year-specific pages regarding this very issue. I am not engaging in a edit war, just keeping things 'as is' until a consensus is reached. TenEx, please act in good faith and stop reverting until this issue is concluded (As an aside, you said that you are going for consensus instead on individual pages, but after I reverted you ignored BRD and instead changed again instead of taking the issue to the talk page. I read that as rather disingenuous.) ]] 14:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

:Do you know what a blind reversion is? If not, I suggest you read up on it because your reversions are blind and constitute vandalism and disruption. This is but the latest example of your problematic behavior. When will it change? ] (]) 20:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

::I am not sure what he did exactly, but shouldn't we settle this before we make changes? And by settle I mean the way it was? I could be wrong? ] (]) 22:24, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

:::TenEx, please stop changing/editing these until we solve this issue. And again, you said that you are going for consensus instead on individual pages, but after I reverted you ignored BRD and instead changed/edited again instead of taking the issue to the talk page. I read that as rather disingenuous if you are trying to start a dialogue. You are acting rather disruptively here and clearly against the betterment of the articles and the respect of the community. Funny also that you speak of me being disruptive in this! Kettle, teapot? ]] 03:48, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

::::It's "Tennis expert", OK? You still don't know what a "blind revert" is, do you? It's when you throw the baby out with the bath water by mindlessly and lazily reverting a series of edits because you disagree with just one of them. That's what you've been doing. That's vandalism and disruption. And it's just the latest example of your unconstructive editing on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 04:07, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::Again TE you are being disingenuous. My reversions (on pages (], ] and ]) were not of a "baby/bathwater" nature. They were reversions of edits by you dealing specifically and singularly with the Key Biscyane/Miami location issue, which we have been discussing here. Your edits seem to me very disruptive and against community good faith in light of this ongoing discussion. ]] 04:14, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::Is it possible that, well, we might have a chance to stop editing all these pages to discuss the matter here? I suppose, the way things are going, we are not going to reach a consensus, but if we do your edits and your revertions may have been for nothing, so can we just discuss here and instead of making the pages look the way you want them to. (If you have any GA or FA reviews, this is probably going to stop them promoting the article) ] <big><big><font face=Stereofidelic>] 07:03, 11 April 2009 (UTC)</font face></big></big>

===My Inquiry to Tennis_expert===

I now understand your urge behind KB, but I have got few questions which would clarify things to me.

*KB is the location, but not the tournament name, right?
*If Miami Masters is not a tournament name, how come it is shown on the ATP official TV coverage, news articles etc? Of course besides Sony Ericsson
*For the factual accuracy of an encyclopedia, I am supporting you, as I have said before, to mention the correct locations in each tournament's individual article, why isn't that good enough? And for the enough part, the following point:
*We cannot put Sony Ericsson of course in the Performance Timelines, but we also cannot put Roquebrune-Cap-Martin, the column if for the tournament not the location, and the tournaments are not named after the exact correct location, where did I go wrong here? (I am asking)
*They are named after the closest most famous city, do I have proof? No, but a pattern is clear no doubt. Tell me where I went wrong also here.

I would very much appreciate your answers. Thanks. ] (]) 22:59, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: as for the "encouragement to war", it was never meant to be like that, and I hope you find my good faith in my edits, what I meant is to keep things as it ''was'' till we resolve the matter, and by that I wanted your confirmation as well on this, am not asking for anything wrong. ] (]) 23:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

:(1) This is what I was writing for ] right before you struck your comments: "The Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP) says that the name of the tournament in Monte Carlo is the 'Monte-Carlo Rolex Masters', not the 'Monte Carlo Masters', the 'Roquebrune-Cap-Martin Masters', or anything else. You are confusing two different issues: (a) the official name of a tournament; and (b) where the tournament is held. I am in favor of always using the official name of the tournament, e.g. 'Monte-Carlo Rolex Masters', and saying where that tournament actually is held, e.g., 'Roquebrune-Cap-Martin'. I am not in favor of 'changing the name of the tournament'. For example, in a Misplaced Pages article, I always say, 'Andy Murray won the Sony Ericsson Open in Key Biscayne, Florida.' ".
:(2) I am not aware that the term "Miami Masters" is used on television or by the ATP or the Women's Tennis Association (WTA) in any official capacity. The ATP and the WTA are businesses and want to keep their sponsors happy; therefore, they are highly unlikely to use anything other than "Sony Ericsson Open".
:(3) Misplaced Pages editors have gone wrong about tournament locations. The site of a tennis tournament is a geographical fact and can be verified independently of the ATP or WTA. For example, the Grand Canyon is clearly in the United States and it would therefore be erroneous to rely on a source claiming that the canyon is in Canada, regardless of how often the source said that. However, the name of a tournament is a commercial or business decision made by tournament organizers and secondarily by the news media. We (Misplaced Pages editors) have to rely on verifiable reliable sources to determine tournament names.
:(4) We may put whatever information we want in performance timelines, subject to Misplaced Pages policy about verifiability. Therefore, we could put "Sony Ericsson Open" in a timeline, just like we could put "Roquebrune-Cap-Martin" there.
:(5) The decision by the ATP and tournament organizers to say (erroneously) that the Monte-Carlo Rolex Masters is in Monte-Carlo merely reflects their marketing objectives. Whenever a marketing campaign misstates independently verifiable facts, Misplaced Pages must ignore the campaign and instead rely on the actual facts. And the actual fact is that the Monte-Carlo Rolex Masters is in Roquebrune-Cap-Martin even though the official name of the tournament uses "Monte-Carlo". ] (]) 03:51, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

====My suggestion====

Tennis_expert, is right about these answers, TE has talked sense about the issue into me, give it time to read it, you'd feel the same, and as for the Misplaced Pages rules, TE is dead on. My suggestion to keep everything right, that is to name the tournaments in the performance time-lines by the real location, (e.g. Key Biscayne and Roquebrune-Cap-Martin etc) and having after it between parenthesis () the widely known misled name, (e.g. Miami, Monte Carlo etc), on the other hand, we'd go for the sponsors names, which follows ] very well. ], because we are moving in a circle now. ] (]) 15:08, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: And please, for the meanwhile, no further edits to be made until this is resolved in a good manner. All suggestions and comments are welcome, keep them direct to the point and cool please. ] (]) 16:58, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

:I think that it is actually in Key Biscayne, after looking at showing that it is very close to Key Biscayne and giving the address of the centre as '''7300 Crandon Boulevard, Key Biscayne, Florida'''. Really the only confusing thing was that . ] <big><big><font face=Stereofidelic>17:28, 11 April 2009 (UTC)</font face></big></big>

An additional option: many older fans refer to this tournament as "Key Biscayne" (or even as "the Lipton"). A parenthesis near the top of the article--as for other sports events and venues whose official name has changed--could clarify that this tournament was for many years sponsored by Lipton and for many years referred to commonly as alternatively "the Lipton" or "Key Biscayne". Of course, considering what goes before on this page, I don't dare change a word on the main page! ] (]) 16:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

== ] ==

This is a notice to let you know about ''''']''''', a ] subscription-based news delivery system designed to notify WikiProjects and Taskforces when articles are entering ], ], ] and other workflows (]). The reports are updated on a daily basis, and provide brief summaries of what happened, with relevant links to discussion or results when possible. A certain degree of customization is available; WikiProjects and Taskforces can choose which workflows to include, have individual reports generated for each workflow, have deletion discussion transcluded on the reports, and so on. An example of a customized report can be found ].

If you are already subscribed to ''Article Alerts'', it is now easier to ] and ]. We are also in the process of implementing a ], which would let projects know about ongoing discussions on a wikipedia-wide level, and other things of interest. The developers also note that some subscribing WikiProjects and Taskforces use the <code>display=none</code> parameter, but forget to '''give a link''' to their alert page. Your alert page should be located at "Misplaced Pages:PROJECT-OR-TASKFORCE-HOMEPAGE/Article alerts". Questions and feedback should be left at ].<!--Addbot-WP-Message-Article-alerts-01-->

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Thanks. — ]&nbsp;{<sup>]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-4.0ex;">]</sub>&nbsp;&ndash;&nbsp;]} 09:45, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

== Open Era ==

Hey, tennis folk. I'm not at all sure why this bothers me, but it does. (Go figure.) Our articles are not consistent when it comes to the capitalization of this ubiquitous phrase. The three contenders are: Open Era, Open era, and open era. Embarrassingly enough, examples of all three can be found in ]. I would advocate capitalization of both terms (i.e., Open Era) to conform to the journalistic norm and to the capitalization of other kinds of eras (Mesozoic Era, anyone?). But each of the three contenders could be justified, and I'm more interested in consistency than anything else. Is it possible to achieve a consensus? ] (]) 00:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

:Well, according to the conventions of standard English, it should be capitalised if it's a proper noun. Is it a proper noun? There's only one of it, so I would say Yes. ] (]) 16:52, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response! I didn't think it was quite as straightforward as you do, which is, in part, why I asked. Whether this is a proper noun depends, in my view, on some social negotiation (i.e., is it a socially recognized yet as a time period). Plus, each of the three contenders is plausible, connoting—to my ear, anyway—something slightly different. "Open era" tends to place the emphasis on the "Open" Grand Slams (i.e., the introduction of non-amateurs into the four Slams), while "open era" places the focus on the fact that professionals were introduced into events of all kinds (Slams and non-Slams). (Another reason I asked this question is that a recently departed editor preferred "open era.") "Open Era," which—like you—I prefer, suggests a socially recognized time period. I tend to think tennis fans, anyway, would agree that such a time period has been formally recognized (i.e., from 1968 onward). Unless others chime in, I'll begin standardizing our references to "Open Era." ] (]) 20:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

== X Player career history ==

As an active member of ], I can say that there are many FA/GAs of major players (], ], ], et al.), and none of them have required a separate section for their career history. However, I already see ], and talk of doing the same for others. I would strongly urge that this not take place. It creates an unnecessary fork, and something that will probably not be kept up with very well, in comparison to the main article. Especially considering most tennis players have shorter careers than basketball players, I think that this can and should be avoided at all costs. ] (] • ]) 09:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

== Request For Comment/ Tennis Expert ==

A Request for Comment was filed in regards to the behavior of ] recently. An attempt is now being made to further involve editors seen as further from the center of the disagreement. The request can be found . Any and all editors are encouraged to leave their input. ]] 15:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

== Flags for Taiwanese players ==

I've noticed that in some tennis articles, the Chinese Taipei flag is used. In others, the Republic of China flag is used.
e.g. the ] article has the ROC flag, whereas the CT flag is used against Chan Yung-jan's name in ].
Do we have a standard policy on this? Should we have one? Does it matter?
] (]) 00:46, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
:] would probably be the salient guideline. &mdash;/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 02:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

== 1rd ==

Searching for the typo "1rd" turns up a disproportionate number of tennis articles: ], ], ] and ]. Is it just an English-as-a-foreign-language problem, confusing "first" with "third" to get "1RD"? Or is there an arcane tennis term known only to you WikiProject people? That is, does "1RD" mean something like "1 RateD"? ] (]) 15:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

: 1rd = 1st round
: But yeah, they should be using the notation 1R.
] (]) 15:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

== Wikitables for Grand Slams ==

The wikitables for the U.S. Open and the Australian Open do not match, and need to be changed to be in line with wikipedia's consistency standards. The navbox and infobox for the Australian are in yellow yet in the wikitables they are blue, and the U.S. Open the navbox and infobox is blue yet in the wikitables it is yellow. This is inconsistent usage of color if color is to be applied on wikipedia it has to be consistent. The new wikitables say on the Serena Williams and Pete Sampras pages do not match the others and need to be reverted back to have wins in the top and the runner's up in the lower. Not all condenced into one wikitable. This can and could be rather confusing to the un-trained eye. Misplaced Pages is about making content accessible and easily readable to the user and the experienced editors on here. The lack of standards when it comes to the Tennis Project and articles needs to be made mainstreamed like the Golf Project is doing to their articles. Thanks for listening! ]] 18:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

:I have already got the mens done for the grand slams wikitables on each article, and in a couple days I will go to work on the women's unless someone else wants to get started! ]] 22:21, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

::Got the Australian Womens Open done on the wikitables for all of the winners and runners up! ]] 01:09, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

:::Now the U.S. Women's wikitables are done to color specs that were already implemented! ]] 01:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

::::Australian Open Men's Doubles are done with the new color! ]] 20:22, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

:::::I got most of them done, if you all find anymore make the USOpen Blue and the Australian Open Yellow! ]] 23:52, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

== ] ==

The article is peer review over ]. Comments are welcome in improving the article. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 19:02, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

== Separate year articles ==

I just noticed two articles created for a player's performance in a single year: ] and ] stating increasing article length as the reason (, ). I believe this is an increase and not a solution to the overgrowing problem of excessive details in the articles. Creating separate article for statistics for a major player makes sense, but articles for individual years not only creates unnecessary forks but also reduces quality of existing articles (years 2009 in Nadal's article and 2008 in Federer's article now read a single line). The problems with article size needs to be addressed by conforming to more summary style writing and trimming of excessive details as was attempted at ]. I think year-by-year forking of the articles needs to be stopped. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 23:15, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
:I agree creating separate article for each year is not a perfect solution. But these player articles are getting frustratingly longer and harder to navigate. Cleaning up the excessive details run risk of reverting by the users who wrote them. But I don't want to contest your reverts and will leave them alone. ] (]) 00:26, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
::Edits trimming down the article, particularly decreasing details on player's performance in every round of a competition to only the final result for that competition, are always constructive and can be well argued if reverted. See the Murray article and related discussion on its talk page. Also, since you agree that separate articles are not a solution, would you consider blanking the new articles and templates you created and nominating them for speedy deletion per {{tl|db-g7}}? <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 01:50, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
:::Done... ] (]) 02:32, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

== Terrible color and centering ==

Ok I was going through the French Open article today and there has been a mass change for the "worse" in its appearance. It has looked pretty standard for years and now the color changes look poor and unprofessional (they should be white like other encyclopedias), and the centering looks poor on 19 and 21 inch monitors. Why this change for the worse? The French page was almost unreadable in it's new state. There was no discussion on the individual page or I would have spoken up right quick. I changed some back so I could read them but then I noticed ALL of the championship pages have been changed so I though we better talk here before everything gets out of whack. I'm gone for a week starting sunday so I thought I should speak now before the damage goes too far by the time I get back. Thanks ] (]) 22:23, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

:I changed these pages because it is done on wikitables on the individual's pages of the champions and runners-up, which I put everything in the center, so it could be easily displayed in the browsers of most users. The Australian Page was in blue and white alternate, which I changed to yellow all the way so it would match the color of the major, which red-French green-Wimbledon blue-US Open. I think this makes since, which if it hurts peoples eyes I think all color should be taken off the indivual pages a well. I think this is making everyting standard, and distiguishes them to be that major list instead of the other majors. By the way I have a 17 inch widescreen laptop, and it makes the tables look better than ever, and makes it displayed better on smaller computers, which means their will be white space for the bigger computers like mine and Fyunch(click). This makes it expand and contract to the browser size. Go and test it out for yourselves! ]] 22:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

*]
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*] <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 22:49, 29 May 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::I switched the mens singles back to normal and in good faith left the womens changed so as to give an easier comparison between style. I didn't do the AO because it was even more hideous before and would have required more rewriting effort than I had time for. I really think it looked better white and left justified. ] (]) 10:09, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

== Tables ==

Shouldn't we restore all the tables with the grand slam, ATP Masters series etc results to the way they were before? Like put them under the "Wins" and "runner-up" titles instead of having the "outcome" column. It would be easier to see how many times a player has won or come second in a tournament. ] (]) 08:06, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

:I agree. I also don't like the new color schemes (e.g. ). One color per line, else it gets visually distracting. --] (]) 14:41, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

::I disagree: I think they give a better flow, and side-by-side comparison rather than having them split-up, which does not allow for that to be done in a sortable wikitable. I like it, and please don't change it! I think you can do what you all want to do if it is done on the main page not on the career and statistics pages because it has been made uniform, which if their is not one of those pages it needs to be created for all grand slam champions.]] 00:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

== WTA site ==

Looks like the WTA is restructuring their website.<br><br>
Looks like their player profiles are going to have new URLs, and they aren't going to redirect the old ones.<br><br>
Looks like I'm going to cry...] (]) 06:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
:The new site isn't up and running yet. Once that happens, we can make the relevant change in the template. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 08:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
::Well we are in deep trouble. The new site does not redirect to old links to new one, leaving all the links currently present on Misplaced Pages redirecting to the central page. The URL structure has changed, as well as player IDs. There are nearly 700 female tennis bio articles on Misplaced Pages. Plus we need to take care of all the other links to the site, including those to news, head-to-head, tournament draws, etc. For all these cases there is at first the need to find the alternate new link and then replace. In total, I'd say there are more than 1500 links (in fact there are links, but some of these are in non-article namespaces making them no-priority links). <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 16:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Oh, good grief. How inconsiderate of the WTA! :-) There's a lot of tedious manual labour ahead of us. ]\<sup>]</sup> 16:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
::::On the plus side, it appears the player search facility on the WTA site is now reliable, whereas previously it had some blind-spots. Also allows wild-character searches etc.
:::: I guess we'll just have to start with Abramovic and work through to Zvonareva...] (]) 01:58, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::I've updated {{tl|Wta}} and provided instructions on how to use the new syntax. This change in template may cause some erratic results presently where links in some of the players' articles point to someone else on the WTA site. But I think that is something we'll have to face for a while. I'm planning on making changes in 700 odd articles within next 24-48 hrs by going through ] alphabetically. Anyone interested can join me. Just let me know how you are approaching the list. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 03:26, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
::::::I'm happy to help out with this. I can work backwards from Zvonareva and meet you somewhere in between? Best wishes! ] (]) 00:59, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Note that the links to PDFs on earnings (such as appear in the WTA career earnings tables of some prominent players) are now dead, and I have not yet found the new locations.] (]) 00:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

:::::::Stop the presses: http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/SEWTATour-Archive/Rankings_Stats/prize_money_2008.pdf is an example of a new URL for those pages. ] (]) 01:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Using Advanced Search on e.g. "Prize Money 2007" works, but for years earlier than 2006, selecting the suggested result brings up a resource not found message (with a note to contact the webmaster to notify them, but the webmaster's mailto address is blank).] (]) 01:32, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

:::::::Looks as though you splendid people did everyone on the List of female tennis players except for those from Maes to Namigata, which I have now done. ] (]) 03:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

== ] ==

This page does not have to be in chronogical order because even the ] articles are not in reverse or chronogical order, which means it's up to the editor that creates the content to decide. If you want to change it do so without deleting it because that is not correct under the good faith system on wikipedia. ]] 15:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

== Fact check request on ] ==

Can an interested editor please fact check the ] article for me? I ran into any editor, subsequently blocked, who really expanded the article, but also had a fixation at adding in an unsourced ] issue. While everything remaining looks okay to me, I really do not know the subject very well. Can some interested editors please stop by the article to take a look? Thanks. -- ] (]) 05:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
:I've tried to reduce the POV at some places, otherwise the prose looks problem free. It does lacks references though and I have tagged it so. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 05:43, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for looking at the article. -- ] (]) 05:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

== Need a rating ==

Hi. I don't know if this is the place to ask, but ] needs an initial starter rating at ]. Thanks. ] (]) 13:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
:He is not a professional tennis player yet and thus WP:Tennis does not really apply here. I've removed the Wikiproject template from the talk page. Should he become a professional, it can be added again. And if you'd like my advice, I'd say details of his performance at minor tennis events and exhibitions should be removed from the article. They are not notable enough. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 15:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

== Number of titles policy ==

Hi, I was wondering what the policy was for stating the number of titles won by a player on tournament articles. Some statistics incorporate both singles and doubles into the statistic e.g. ] but others only include the figure for the relevant competition e.g. ]. ]] 16:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

:I was always under the impression that unless it states otherwise it's only the singles titles that are counted. ] (]) 17:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

::To me it makes most sense to be specific in each case. If you mean WTA Tour singles titles, say WTA Tour singles titles, and never just say "titles".] (]) 23:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

== Major win-loss counts ==

There seems to be some inconsistency about the place in the win-loss counts for the Majors: for some players only the main draw matches are included, and for others the qualifiers are also included. Do we have a standard on this?] (]) 11:41, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

== Tennis article at PR ==

] is now at Peer review. Feel free to make comments and keep adding references and information to the list. Hopefully we will get the first tennis FL. Cheers. ]] 13:38, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

== Start Boxes Templates for Tennis Player? ==

I have created these for implementation, but do not have time to do all tennis players, which means that I need your all's help in this matter. The main one to use as an example is ] ]] 21:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
:Holy moly..... there's a job and a half to add for every player. I can see why you asked for help. On first scan it looks nice. ] (]) 21:49, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
::Hello, we are only going to do those with extensive start boxes and not only for one or two of them!]] 22:35, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Already got the major players done, go and look at it in the category section!]] 01:18, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
:I just don't see the benefit for the effort. It seems the only purpose is to shorten the physical size of the page, but not the visual size. And it is a fairly large effort... Can you explain what the impetous was? -- ] (]) 01:48, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
::I've already got it done for all the tennis articles that it should be done for up until the present moment, which took no time. Plus, it makes it easier to edit the start boxes alone rather than the whole external links section. Plus, it provides a way of linking them together into a category, which the impetus behind this was to get the external links into what they are EXTERNAL links NOT a whole laundry list of navboxes, start boxes, and other misc. details that are of little use to be displayed in HTML on the main page because they are INTERNAL links. ]] 03:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Furthermore, I might add this is done on other projects articles like ], ], ], which are all of these groups wrong to do this to their articles. I think NOT! PEACE, I am OUT!]] 03:12, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
::::::Additionally, it helps protect against the vandalism of these start boxes by having them on a separte independent template, which is much easier to revert if it does occur! ]] 18:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::::EFFORT: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!All Here ]]] 20:14, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
::::While I agree that compacting the navboxes is good thing in a visual sense, I object to the naming of these compacted templates. See my comments at ]. I find the titles are confusing and perhaps misleading. I suggested a more neutral heading with only one or two compacted templates. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 05:05, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::I just looked at the ] page and my observation is that the Awards and Achievement box works well and looks good... it keeps everything together for easy access. The Slam box and Career Statistics box are things that would normally go under "see also." The slam box is miss marked as it simply goes to the standard slam pages not some special Martina slam page. It does save on space. The career statistics box has a nice link in the title but then also two unnecessary boxes about the WTA. Those could have been incorporated into the Martina slam box and retitle that box something like "associated links." Just my two cents. ] (]) 06:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
::Very Nice! I like the visual appeal and efficiency of drop down boxes.] (]) 20:44, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I was asked to give my opinion, so here it is. Good. :-D The thing is, I'm one of those folks that tends to find overuse of succession boxes very annoying. I love the idea of making them hideable. I actually hope the idea spreads. Succession boxes are wonderful but with accomplished athletes, they can get insane. There are other examples of something like this. Tennis Authority is right...it is on the Tiger Woods article as well. I don't think it's useful if someone only has 1 or 2 succession boxes on their page but I think it is beyond 2. --] <sup>]</sup> 04:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
:::I like it too. Should be standard feature. ] (]) 12:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

== Career Stats Pages! ==

I just created two more ], ], and ], which I would appreciate it if someone fixed those to be like all the others'! Thanks ]] 22:24, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

== ] ==

Made this page, look at it and edit away!]] 02:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

== Go Here to make rivalry pages! ==

From:TennisAuthority! I have lost my passion for wikipedia and will not be comming back! Have a good day and good life GOD BLESS <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:14, 21 June 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
First, Go Here Before You Make A Page: Category:Tennis rivalries ]

Caution:Be Sure to tag the one you are working on while you are doing it so others' will not do it and cause duplication of content!]] 19:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is a site to make the EXCEL File into an WIKITABLE Easier ], which you have to import the webpage into excel by going to data tab and from web, which look how I did mine!]] 08:30, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Process:
</br>Step One: Open Excel
</br>Step Two: Click Data Tab and From WEB
</br>Step Three: Paste URL
</br>Step Four: Take and Copy necessary part!
</br>Step Five: Take that part into Word and Use the Replace Feature to take out Stats, and take the Reversed names and put them in correct order
</br>Step Five: Delete Country while you are in Word
</br>Step Six: Imput it back into Excel again
</br>Step Seven: Create new section with Score at the top next to winner and copy that whole column also
</br>Step Eight: Copy that into the URL above
</br>Step Nine: Take that code and put it into word and delete the useless rows like Step Five but with alot of ||||||| and Space||
</br>Step Ten: Input the code into page on wikipedia
</br>Step Eleven:Take out unnecessary |- and bring score upto main rows
</br>Step Twelve:Save the page and start writing later or whenever!
</br>Step Thirteen:You've accomplished one try two!
</br>By the way:This process will only work for the mens not womens!

Make to your hearts content! Think of the possibilities Connors-McEnroe, McEnroe-Lendl, Lendl-Wilander, Becker-Edberg, Agassi-Sampras, Federer-Roddick, Federer-Djokovic, Laver-Newcombe, Laver-Emerson, and much much more!]] 02:44, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Player-Landing.aspx

===Individual Links===
====Becker-Edberg====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=B028&oId=E004
</br> Created By: ]] 08:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
</br> Page Name: ]

====Agassi-Sampras====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=A092&oId=S402
</br> Created by: ]] 08:24, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
</br> Page Name: ]
Created long before at ]

====Connors-McEnroe====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=C044&oId=M047
</br>Created by:]] 13:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
</br>Page Name: ]

====Lendl-McEnroe====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=L018&oId=M047
</br>Create By:]] 13:40, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
</br>Page Name:]

====Connors-Lendl====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=C044&oId=L018
TAG:]] 19:18, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
</br>Created By:]] 19:34, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
</br>Page name: ]

====Lendl-Wilander====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=L018&oId=W023
TAG:]] 19:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
</br>Created By:]] 19:52, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
</br>Page name: ]

====Edberg-Lendl====
Already created by:Nwill
Page name: ]

====Federer-Roddick====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=F324&oId=R485

====Djokovic-Federer====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=F324&oId=D643

====Federer-Murray====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=F324&oId=MC10

====Djokovic-Nadal====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=D643&oId=N409

====Murray-Nadal====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=N409

====Djokovic-Murray====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=D643&oId=MC10

====Djokovic-Roddick====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=D643&oId=R485

====Nadal-Roddick====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=R485

====Becker-Wilander====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=B028&oId=W023
TAG:]] 20:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
</br>Created by:]] 20:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
</br>Page Name: ]

====Edberg-Wilander====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=E004&oId=W023
TAG:]] 20:27, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
</br>Created by:]] 20:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
</br>Page Name: ]

====Laver-Newcombe====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=L058&oId=E030

====Laver-Rosewall====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=L058&oId=R075

====Laver-Newcombe====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=L058&oId=N044

====Borg-Vilas====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=B058&oId=V028
TAG:]] 02:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
</br>Created By:]] 02:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
</br>Page Name:]

====McEnroe-Vilas====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=M047&oId=V028

====McEnroe-Nastase====
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=M047&oId=N008

This is all that I can come up with right now! ]] 03:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

== Womens Rivalry Pages! ==

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHeadIntro/0,,12781,00.html

This is where to go to look them up, and have at it editors!]] 03:18, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

:Already done:Evert-Navratilova, Graf-Seles, Graf-Sabatini, Williams Sisters, and Davenport-Hingis <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


===Rivalry===

====Graf-Sanchez-Vicario====
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~2718~7184,00.html

====Sanchez-Vicario-Seles====
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~7184~7354,00.html

====Evert-Navratilova====
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~2188~5744,00.html

====Graf-Navratilova====
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~2718~5744,00.html

====Evert-Goolagong====
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~2188~2794,00.html

====Graf-Seles====
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~2718~7354,00.html

====Evert-Court====
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~2188~1285,00.html

====Court-King====
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~1285~4011,00.html

====Court-Goolagong====
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~1285~2794,00.html

====Goolagong-King====
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~2794~4011,00.html

====Henin-Serena====
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~3541~9044,00.html

====Henin-Venus====
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~3541~9027,00.html

Done for now!]] 03:34, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

== Do we need rivalry pages? ==

I'm not sure if most of these things could simply be linked to the tour page to look up yourself for fun as opposed to a separate wiki article for each one. Sure, there are some famous rivalries but most of these listed are simply standard bookkeeping records aren't they? I mean does anyone care enough about a McEnroe-Nastase rivalry to warrant an encyclopedic entry? And many of these players played before that tour chart was made so their rivalries matches are woefully incomplete. ] (]) 09:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
:Create the ones you want to create, but just think about it for a second we have recent rivalries which makes them more relevant to an encyclopedia like Nadal Federer and the Williams Sisters. I think not, and these records are pretty complete to me! By the way, I saw Borg-McEnroe and that was what spurred me onto look, and I came across this treasure trove of information on these! I just have not had the time to do the write-up on these yet, which will come in due time Fyunch! ]] 09:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
::Great find TennisAuthority! I think rivalry pages are a good idea as long as they are relegated to presenting substantive content and not a prose-like melodrama about the "competitive dynamic" and "legacy" of the rivalry.] (]) 15:09, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Yes ''']<sup>]</sup>''' 10:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
::::Does anyone else want to help create these wikitables, which I did provide directions to get this accomplished quick and easy!]] 20:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::It looks like everyone likes them.... I'll work on a few.... I just have to figure out which ones. :-) ] (]) 20:50, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
:Gotta agree. Having a page with just the breakdown of two players' matches is kinda useless. Rivalry articles like Federer-Nadal's are great, but Federer-Hewitt's article is just useless.

:In addition, some of these rivalries are minor, and I doubt they 'deserve' an article of their own. If others agree, I'll go on and open a deletion discussion for all articles containing only breakdown of the matches, without any additional info. ''']''' <small>(] • ])</small> 23:30, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

::Well, I got to say if you make an exception for say two Williams' Sisters and Federer-Nadal yor are being a recentionist, which this is an encyclopedia not a blog about recent events. This means each and every rivalry page is useful, and needed to be done, which it is not me that is working on it Nwill is working hard on them, too. I have got to say it if we delete the older one's or the irrelevant ones by your words then we have to delete the Federer-Nadal one and integrate that information into there main respective entries on wikipedia. This is the reason your argument does not hold water is because it is an ENCYCLOPEDIA, and I am tryting to get people to finally treating it like that!]] 00:05, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

:::Let me ask this. Federer has also played and crushed Alejandro Falla. I would vote that out to be deleted as trivial if a rivalry page was created for them. What will we use as the definition of a tennis "rivalry" so we stay encyclopedic instead of being a bathroom book of lists type thing? Borg-McEnroe, Kramer-Gonzales, Sampras-Agassi, Federer-Nadal, Evert-Navratilova, King-Court... those are all great rivalries that should be here. I would think Federer-Hewitt would be trivia. Where is the best point to draw the line? Simply a case by case basis or do we talk about what pages should be made before the effort is put forth into a page that really shouldn't be here? I'm pretty open about this, I simply want to get it right. ] (]) 00:30, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

::::So, Beyond that exclusively narrow and amateurish list, what other rivalries could you name that were significant, which some might say the Federer-Nadal rivalry is insignificant because it is so recent that history hasn't had the chance to judge it yet! So, whose to say which rivalry is of merit some two or three editors, which means there will be not end of the debate. I am just trying to do the ones that are significant, which most of them have met in the slams and I am not doing the Craybas-Dulko rivalry page because that is of no merit right now. I love how you all don't think Hewitt-Federer is not an important one because they have met in many majors and other major events, which is of merit to all users to know and be able to research on wikipedia. Go look at that rivalry page, and see they met six times in the slams, which that is not of significants to have a wikitable about them. I think we might be able to come to some sort of an agreement on this subject. The solution could be a page with all the wikitables of all the rivalries with no other rivalry pages independant of the main one with just the table alone and no fluff like is on the Federer-Nadal, which is less signifant than Evert-Navratilova, which has virtually nothing on here in comparison. I think we are be recentionist on here, which is never a good thing because an ENCYCLOPEDIA is suppose to be about history not a blog about modern events like could be said of Federer-Nadal! So, we could create a Mens and Womens rivalries page! But don't delete just because it is not recent or so-called not in vogue enough to have a table about! PEACE, even though we disagree!]] 01:22, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

:::::TennisAuthority, I think you misunderstood me. The list I gave is not amateurish and narrow... it is incomplete on purpose. There are certainly more rivalries than the ones I listed. I gave extremes; an extreme bad one and many extreme great ones. My question is what is a rivalry and where do we draw the line? The press has tried to create one with Federer and Roddick but I don't see it. I don't think just because someone plays someone else multiple times it does not a rivalty make... there needs to be plenty of wins on both sides. I also think you are using recension incorrectly here which simply means text established by critical revision. I am very aware of history and that one should never assume ceib (current era is best) when writing these articles. I guess what I would look at is does the press or people in general consider two players to have a so called rivalry? I have never heard anyone describe Federer and Hewitt having one. I have heard plenty of people say McEnroe and Lendl had a rivalry. Maybe it would be different it was put as "Best tennis players of their generation head to heads." Is that more the direction how you are thinking of a rivalry? Rivalry sounds to me, and I think most people, as something rather special. ] (]) 09:13, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

::::::Rivalry pages should not be created based and giving only head-to-head performance but based on the so called rivalries' reception by critics and spectators. This would require significant coverage where these rivalries, and not just matches, are talked about through the reliable sources. Most of the newly created articles listed above merely consist of statistics with no prose whatsoever. Remember, Misplaced Pages is not collection of indiscriminate information or merely statistics. Please shape up those of the newly created articles, otherwise they might be listed for deletion. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 11:08, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Please remember to link the articles to the appropriate wiki-projects once a new page is created, also reference it properly otherwise the page may get deleted. ''']<sup>]</sup>''' 00:55, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


Some sources you all might want to check out!
</br>http://www.boston.com/sports/other_sports/tennis/gallery/08_25_06_greats/
</br>http://bleacherreport.com/articles/68894-seven-famous-tennis-rivalries
</br>http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/ten-great-tennis-rivalries-1429447.html
</br>http://tv.sky.com/top-tennis-rivalries
</br>http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/27/nyregion/old-tennis-rivalries-resume.html
</br>Go Look! ]] 17:27, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

:Don't tell me. Add them in the pages. Add prose to those pages. Consider working on articles in your userspace and developing them instead of just putting tables that readers can find anywhere online. There is no rush in creating these articles. Take one article and expand it enough that the reader can gain something out of it. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 17:39, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
::Hello, I got all of them into wiki-alignment except for the Borg-Vilas one, which will be done tommorrow! I don't think any of these articles needs prose to prove their importance like TennisGrandSlam said. Prose is fluff, and does not need to be on these pages. The links that I listed are to show these in fact are rivalries that do not need to be deleted. I will go about creating more because this is what I like to do, and if you all don't want to join in so be it, which I will get them done on my own! PEACE OUT! ]] 21:31, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I have nominated the ] page for deletion. Ciao! ] (]) 23:21, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

:I am going to nominate every rivalry article for deletion under the wikipedia criteria of ], ], ]. Even the Federer-Nadal and the Williams' Sisters' rivalry pages because they are useless news articles not for encyclopedic consumption! I wish you all were not so tennis novices, and actually researched your histories!]] 01:33, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

::I think we should merge all details to a central page on rivalries or put it on each tennis players career statistics pages! Even for those two that I mentioned above! ]] 01:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

:::Really, I think all of these articles are of merit, and none should be deleted because they are all central to telling the story of tennis thru the ages like Federer-Nadal is today's time! ]] 02:16, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
::::I think you need to make up your mind where you stand on this rivalry issue. And I'm baffled by your attitude towards article development. "Prose is fluff"? You need to understand what encyclopedia writing is. It isn't just creating statistics page page and nickname templates. And looking at the deletion discussion of Federer-Hewitt article, I can confidently say that other such articles will be nominated soon and would almost certainly face deletion. This could be your last chance to get those articles in shape. And before citing policies such as WP:NTEMP, understand what they stand for. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 03:49, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

:::::I am all for them, but I was just trying to point out the hypocrisy here with a little sarcasm that's why I sited those policies to get a rouse out of someone! You evidently took my bait and now I am switching it off! I am LOL!]] 05:07, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

::::::Well, I wasn't joking. Unless you do something, expect deletion notices soon enough. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 05:11, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
I am a bit split on this, but I have a proposal. If the players have played each other at least ten (10) times (Maybe some higher number?)...AND had an "even" win-loss ratio? If not, then a "rivalry" section could be added to their pages, but not a whole page?
* We also need to NOT increase the size of players with long careers (like Martina) who could be reputed to have rivalries with quite a number of players. -- ] (]) 02:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

:The term "rivalry" needs to be explicitly defined for encyclopedic usage. Nobody is questioning the rivalry between (let's say) the Williams, Nadal-Federer, or Agassi-Sampras. The women's side can be harder to identify rivals, if only because there is such huge turnover on a regular basis in the top 5 ranked players. The mens' side is much more stable, and we can more easily see trends between those rankings. Especially as there is very little room to switch things up on the mens' side, we're going to see those top-ranked players play each other extremely often, as is the nature of the standard tournament structure where we see specific matchups over and over again. But just because Joe plays Bill 100 times, that doesn't mean that Joe and Bill have established a rivalry, as Joe also played both Sam and Dave 100 times each as well. For here, the explicit definition of rivalry should probably take into account their ranking at the time, or only those pairings that took place only at the champion match. If Nadal-Federer matches were always in the first round, it wouldn't be as big a deal as it is that they've taken place in the finals. ] (]) 03:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

== GA ==

How about in the next year we aim to get, ], ], ], ], ], ] to GA status? Anyone here willing to give one a go? ''']<sup>]</sup>''' 10:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
:We need some GA players as well. I'm sure ] and ] just need cleaning up to match ] standard. ] (]) 09:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

== Who came up with the bright idea of putting past champs first in the grand slam bracket articles? ==

This just does not make since to put the defending champion before the winner of the slam on the article, and if it is standard usage it needs to be readdressed to put the winner first and the defending in the second sentence!]] 21:16, 19 June 2009 (UTC

== Major problems with article on the Orange bowl ==

The article on ] conflates two COMPLETELY DISTINCT junior tournaments, leading to major inaccuracies. I've left a more detailed explanation on the talk page of the article. ] (]) 07:34, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

== ATP Site ==

With the redesign of the ATP's site, it looks like our links to player profiles are all now broken. Has anyone thought about, er, a plan? I'll be happy to help out. ] (]) 18:55, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
:I had noticed it too. As if the WTA restructure wasn't enough. What's worse is that ATP now does not have any ID system. Which means that the template {{tl|ATP}} can't be used now and we'd have manually add each link to all the articles. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 19:04, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
::I guess the first thing to do is to request a bot removes all current ATP links. And if it's the ''only'' link, adds a {{tl|noref}} to the page as many, many bios rely on just the ATP link alone (which is insufficient in my mind but better than nothing). We can't have hundreds of dead links. ] (]) 19:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
:{{tl|ATP}} is now fixed. Luckily there is still a way to use the "old" IDs. However, we have a new problem: how to find out what is the ID for a given player if we don't have it already? ] (]) 01:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:::This is great work, thanks! ] (]) 03:49, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::Okay, it's possible, but it's a bit complicated:
::#Go to the player's ATP profile page
::#Invoke "View source" in your browser
::#Search for "initPlayerLiveScoreParam" in the HTML source
::#You'll find something like <tt>initPlayerLiveScoreParams('X123');</tt>, and in that case "X123" is what you're looking for
::Hopefully there is a simpler way... ] (]) 01:09, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, there is:
::#Go to the player's ATP profile page
::#In the "Head to head" edit box on the right enter any player and submit
::#You'll see their head to head record, and pId in the URL is the ID in question
::Is there an ''even simpler'' way? ] (]) 01:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

== All RIvalry Pages must be deleted or kept! ==

] Even the Federer-Nadal and Williams' Sisters because they are current and history has not had the time to judge them yet! Plus, the old ones have not many internet sources to add, which does not make them unnotable!

*'''Keep''': This is what I believe is should happen, but if some say delete: delete the hole darn bunch!]] 22:14, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

TennisAuthority has lost passion for all of wikipedia and is done and never coming back, so GOD BLESS and have a good day and good life! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:15, 21 June 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:That would suck as I think he does a lot of great work here. ] (]) 23:31, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
::I have deleted ] at the request of ] but let me know if anyone wants it back again. Does anyone support the deletions? or should I ignore the ]'s request? ] (]) 04:03, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Ignore any bad faith and POINTed nominations by TennisAuthority. Unless TennisAuthority is the primary contributor to the pages, please do not delete the articles. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 04:51, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

== "Too Much Detail" Template; Andy Roddick ==

I just want to bring to the attention of the community that an editor has input the template on the ] article page that says: "This article may contain an excessive amount of intricate detail that may only interest a specific audience. Please relocate any relevant information, and remove excessive trivia, praise, criticism, lists and collections of links. (April 2009)".

It is very detailed. But as a tennis fan, I think that's great. Others may differ.

In any event, I thought it worthwhile to bring up for discussion here. Is the template innapropriate, for a tennis player page such as Roddick's? Or is it correct, and should something be done? How much detail is appropriate? This is relevant, as I believe this banner has been input on some other (less detailed) tennis player pages as well. Tx.--] (]) 19:20, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:I think you are illustrating the very point why that template is being used. While it might interest a tennis follower, an ordinary reader would find it very long, dreary and uninteresting to read due to the excessive amount of detail added (such as scores of each and every match played in a tournament). The aim is to reduce this detail to a more tolerable level so as to make it pleasant for a non tennis following reader. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 19:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::I agree with LeaveSleaves that the scores embedded in the prose make the article difficult to read, especially as the tables later in the piece should suffice in showing the scores for the relevant matches. If the match is mentioned in the prose but isn't important enough to be listed in one of the later tables, then perhaps that match shouldn't be included in the prose portion at all? Summarize, tighten. Break some of the dreariness into more distinct paragraphs/subheads for easier reading.~ And for gosh sake, delink the multiple appearances of player names. Just link the first time McEnroe or Hewitt appear in the article, not every single time they're listed. That in itself might be half the problem in making the page look busier than it actually is. ] (]) 19:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:::An example of what's wrong with the article: "In the 2008 Wimbledon, Roddick suffered a 2nd round defeat to Serbia's Janko Tipsarević 6–7 (5), 7–5, 6–4, 7–6 (4)." ''Who cares'' how many points Roddick won in the fourth set tiebreak of a Wimbledon match he lost in 2008? Why is this important? The article reports results of ''more than 120 individual sets'', and that's without 2008 and 2009, because I got bored counting. ] (]) 20:21, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Ethelh! Maybe someone should create an ] article to hold the detailed information? ] (]) 21:16, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:Just to flesh this out a bit, I took a glance at the articles of some of our more recent # 1 tennis players, and most seem to have one or more banners, usually at the top of the page. In addition to Roddick, for example, the excessive detail banner is the first thing you see on the Henin, Jancovic, Ivanovic, Sarafina, and Agassi bios. A "needs cites" banner adorns the Muster, Sampras, Ferrero, Courier, Henin, Sarafina, and Davenport bios. Neutrality is questioned in the Lendl and Emerson bios. And the suggestion is made that the Laver article be cleaned up. Just a short sampling, but it's not a very pretty look.--] (]) 21:21, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

== Players' Twitters ==

Hm, I've been noticing a few players have been using the ] service. Would it be a good idea to include this on their Twitter pages as part of the external link sections? Some of the players who have one are Serena Williams, Andy Roddick, Andy Murray, Sam Querrey... Yea? Nay? '''<font color="#B9B9B9" face="times">]</font><font color="#DA8FC0" face="times">]</font>'''<font color="#B9B9B9"><sup>]</sup></font> 02:51, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
:No. WP:NOT a phone directory (or, in this case, a twitter directory). There are plenty of celeb-oriented websites with twitter/email/street/phone info available for celeb-hungry interested folks. ] (]) 02:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
::Twitter lists among ] in our external links policy. They really don't provide any significant information about the person that, say, his/her official website. I wouldn't recommend adding them. <sup>'']''</sup>''']''' 03:26, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

== Add HOF to Infobox? ==

Golf does this to the infobox, and I don't understand why tennis doesn't do this, too? This needs to be linked to the hall-of-fame page of the player!] (]) 18:17, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

== Source of Images ==

I have organised some free images that relate to cricket on ]. There is the set of freely usable images. I can upload them to Misplaced Pages/WikiCommons and avaliable for use, on request. Please alert me on my talk page as I will most likely not return here, thanks, <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair; white-space:nowrap;"><small>'''&nbsp;]''' ''']'''&nbsp;</small></span> 11:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

== Navratilova Flag ==

There is some new person insisting that Navratilova's flag needs to be the Czech flag before she was a US citizen. I was always under the impression that the flag was for the country you intended to represent. Was there a ruling around here I missed? In 1975, upon defection, she lost her Czech citizenship so if not US does she get no flag at all? ] (]) 17:48, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

:She was stateless, so no flag appears to be the most accurate. ] (]) 18:38, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

::She was not stateless. The US granted her asylum in 1975 and she worked hard to eventually gain US citizenship. Everything she did at the time was United States based. People have gone to war fighting for the US without being citizens so why are you making a big deal of a tennis player who sacrificed everything she knew to be in the USA and yet you won't allow her a US flag here on her tennis page? It doesn't seem fair to Martina. ] (]) 19:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

:::This is not an emotional issue and has nothing to do with fairness or my "allowing her" anything. All that matters are the facts. She was in fact stateless and had to declare this status on various official documents during this time period. You are invited to do a Google search to verify this for yourself. ] (]) 20:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


=== Navratilova Flags? ===
Not Stateless, CRAZY ASUMPTION!

I question your premise and understanding of asylum to begin with because as soon as she left czechslovakia, she was made an ad hoc American. She competed therefore as an American! I want you to go and even look at her two Wimbledon's in 1978 and 1979 to verify that fact because those are the ones in question. I am the user that has made this adjustment upon my research, wbich is what wikipedian editors are suppose to do, which they don't like yourself! I will put a link here for you to look to stop this junk http://aeltc2009.wimbledon.org/en_GB/about/history/rolls/ladiesroll.html. This makes it official, which I did cite on the appropriate pages, and it needs to stay that way because this is their record and needs to be ours on wikipedia as well. So, all 18 and 9 wimbledon's were won as a sole american. She competed as an american from the end of the 1975 US Open onwards, which was based on the tennis channel documentary! That's all! ] (]) 22:13, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

:Refer to these examples, ]: A 1978 report from the Associated Press about Navratilova winning her first Wimbledon singles title: "Stateless Martina Navratilova, who left her Communist homeland to play tennis in the West, fulfilled her highest ambition Friday by defeating Chris Evert...." A 1976 newspaper boxscore concerning the Eastbourne tennis tournament: "Martina Navratilova, Stateless, def. Betsy Nagelsen...." 19 September 1994 Sports Illustrated article entitled ''14 Martina Navratilova'': "Soon thereafter, no longer stateless ... Navratilova would finish the searching." ] (]) 04:29, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

::However it's words like "stateless" that sell magazines and papers. There is no doubt she was a citizen of no country in her early tourney wins. The question is whether she should have a US Flag beside her name since she was living in the US, representing the US in everything she could, and trying to become a US citizen. The Czech flag should be gone but I feel the US flag is warranted. ] (]) 06:06, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

:::Where are you getting the idea that "stateless" sells magazines and papers? And where are you getting the idea that she "represented" the USA in "everything she could"? A professional tennis player does not "represent" her country of residence in anything except Fed Cup and the Olympic Games. She did not play Fed Cup for the USA until after she gained American citizenship, and tennis was not an Olympic sport during her stateless period. You apparently are putting emotional considerations ("she deserves a USA flag") ahead of encyclopedic considerations. ] (]) 08:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

::::Where are you getting the idea she was not a US tennis player? Those flags we put up are not proof of citizenship. They are a simple mechanism for showing what country was represented by a player. By your meaning ALL the flags should be removed and the fans at Wimbledon should stop their ecstasy that Murray is doing so well. The flags here simply show the country that player was living in or had citizenship in or promoted, etc... something that attaches them to a certain country. With Martina it was the US at that time. ] (]) 08:22, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

:::::You just don't get it Chidel, we have to replicate the Wimbledon record here because if we don't we say Wimbledon is wrong. With respect to nationality it is a matter that The Championships says she competed as an American go look, which if you contradict the record it would be false and erroreonous. I like that you bring it to the attention of the connumity, so we can discuss, which allows us to monitor the appropriate pages!</br> Wimbledon Record = Misplaced Pages Record!] (]) 14:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

::::::An observation. Yes this is independent research but I just wanted perspective from non-biased people. I went to the local mall today and asked 5 random people (3 girls and 2 guys). I'd say their ages were 20, 30, 30, 40 and 45ish. I told them I work on an encyclopedia and what we use flag icons for. I Then told them Martina's situation. I asked what they would do if they were writing the article and gave them the 3 choices. I figured going in it would be 3 or 4 US and 1 or 2 blanks. I was wrong. All 5 said they would leave it blank... no flag from the time period of defection to citizenship. I have to say it was not what I expected. I did ask them why and they pretty much said that they eliminated Czech right off the bat but they didn't feel she should really have a US flag either till she was a citizen. Bottom line is while I do feel she should have a US flag I would not be obverse to having no flag at all as a compromise for her "stateless" years. Again just an observation. ] (]) 06:09, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

The current WTA media guide lists "TCH" beside Navratilova's name re: 1978 and 1979 Wimbledon. Bud Collins - ditto. ] (]) 10:04, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

::Chidel do we need to go into this any further? I will to show you the error of this argument! First, the only two slams in question are the 1978 and 1979 Wimbledon, which means we must go by their slam record, which I provided above. This clearly states she competed as an American in those with no questmark or no non-nationality or TCH. This means Navratilova won all her slams as an American, which she competed as an American ad hoc in the interim between asylum and citizenship! This is because the countries squad was in charge of the players such as the TCH tennis federation like the US Tennis Federation was when Navratilova saught asylum, which meant she had to compete as an American because the slams would not accept her without a national federation giving her support and backing. The TCH would not from then on out, so the US one did, simple as that!] (]) 00:54, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

:::The following statement is simply not true: "This is because the countries squad was in charge of the players such as the TCH tennis federation like the US Tennis Federation was when Navratilova saught asylum, which meant she had to compete as an American because the slams would not accept her without a national federation giving her support and backing." ] (]) 09:03, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

::::Yet again you are wrong, which here it is from Wimbledon on another similar case and point "1973 was a sad year for Wimbledon as 81 members of the Association of Tennis Professionals boycotted the meeting following the suspension earlier in the year of Nikki Pilic by the Yugoslavian Lawn Tennis Association. Despite the absence of so many players, attendance reached over 300,000. Jan Kodes of Czechoslovakia and Billie Jean King won the Singles Championships for the sixth time." http://aeltc2009.wimbledon.org/en_GB/about/museum/museum_history.html ] (]) 03:43, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::More: "Frustrated by the Czechoslovakian Tennis Federation's interference with her career, Navratilova defected to the United States in 1975. The same year she became a leading player on the women's professional tennis tour, as she and Evert won the French Open doubles championship, Navratilova’s first major title. The next year the pair won the Wimbledon doubles championship." http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761576078/martina_navratilova.html] (]) 03:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::Again MMOORREE! 'As a teenager, Navratilova's tennis skills allowed her to tour foreign countries, including the United States. She felt stifled in Czechoslovakia and defected at the U.S. Open in 1975, shortly before her 19th birthday. At the time, she said it was strictly a matter of tennis. "Politics had nothing to do with my decision," she said in an Associated Press story. "It was strictly a tennis matter." In Prague, a reporter told her grandfather, who was quoted as replying, "Oh, the little idiot, why did she do that?" The defection was prompted in part, she said, by an incident early in 1975 when she was playing in a tournament at Amelia Island off the coast of Florida. She received a telegram from the officials of the Czech Sports Federation demanding that she return home. "I was in the middle of the tournament," she said. "I had to call upon the '''''U.S. Tennis Association to help get me permission to play'''''. That was when I really decided that I should leave Czechoslovakia."' http://www.answers.com/topic/martina-navratilova ] (]) 04:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Looking Found MMMOOORRREEE 10th and 11th paragraph go look she had to get permission, which that means control! I have to ask you exactly how much do you know about the history of tennis! This was rather easy for me! http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7BUOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=W30DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7238,1608590&dq=martina+navratilova ] (]) 04:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::::My Search! Go Look! http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=martina+navratilova&scoring=a&hl=en&ned=us&sa=N&cid=8483616971554852 ] (]) 04:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::After political asylum, Navratilova had to compete as an American because it was forced and should could not be nationless because then she could not compete because they had to get permission from a national tennis federation or club in order to play in the slams and other events sanctioned under the ]! I love educating other editors and people at large!] (]) 04:25, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::I GOT EVIDENCE YES I DO, AND I LOVE IT!] (]) 04:27, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

== Update? ==

Hello, Just posting here to let the WikiProject know that ] needs to be updated. I would do it myself but I just don't have the time. Thanks. - <font face="Kristen ITC" >] (]·])</font> 23:26, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

== Current Rankings ==

Can we introduce a current ranking section in the infobox that normally exists on a player's page? It shows their career high but one often has to dig through the article to find their actual ranking so I propose that the current ranking would go underneath the career high. The ranking is very easily available on the ATP website and as such it would be easy to update and would make it easier for people to gauge a player's current level without having to search the article. ] (]) 14:22, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

:I think the idea is good. If anything it makes more sense to have a current ranking than a highest ranking. For example, if you looked at ]'s highest ranking and compared it to ]'s highest you might have thought Ferrero was going to be in the semi-finals of Wimbledon this week - that didn't turn out to be the case. One of the key things in judging players is there rankings. It wouldn't be much work to change it. Rankings are update what, every week? Once a week, a group of editors doing 10 or so each? Easily done. If there is a consensus amongst members then I think it should be done. It is an essential piece of info. From tomorrow I'll be on vacation for a fortnight, so sadly I wont be able to answer any questions until then. Regards, ] (]) 00:23, 3 July 2009 (UTC).

== Tennis Infobox HOF! ==

I would really appreciate it if some other editors will go and implement this after career prize money! The one below is for ], but I have done ], so you all could have two examples to go off of!

| tennishofyear = 2007
| tennishofid = 243

Happy Editing Away!] (]) 17:55, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

:This is the link you have to go to in order to get the info for those two things! http://www.tennisfame.com/famer.aspx?pgID=867 ] (]) 18:08, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

::Hello, again! Please, we need to get this done in a timely fashion to bring all infoboxes up to code, which we will split this up by letter of last name, and if you take one to do please mark it here! Sign it with the four Tildes when completed section in full! Thanks! ] (]) 21:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

</br>A:] (]) 22:06, 1 July 2009 (UTC) Done all that had infoboxes!
</br>B:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC) Done all that had tennis player infoboxes for this one and all below!
</br>C:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>D:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>E:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>F:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>G:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>H:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>J:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>K:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>L:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>M:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>N:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>O:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>P:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>Q:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>R:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>S:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>T:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>V:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
</br>W:] (]) 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

== 2003 & 2005 US Women's Open Draw Sheet to make bracket! ==

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/SEWTATour-Archive/Archive/Draws/2005/905.pdf ]
</br>http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/SEWTATour-Archive/Archive/Draws/2003/905.pdf ]DONE
</br>I did the ], which somebody else can do the 2003 & 2005! These two are the only two that are need and can be done with sources right now left to do!] (]) 06:39, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

== Changing Pages? ==

Hello, I found a ] changing the wimbledon page to be different from the other slams, which I reverted back twice now! These are the artilcles to monitor!] (]) 21:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
* ]
* ]
* ]
* ]

== Grunting article ==

There needs to be an article on grunting (or whatever you want to call it) I think. It's gained so much press coverage and former players are calling for it to be banned etc. What are your thoughts? ] (]) 16:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
:I've started an article ] ] (]) 08:58, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
::If anyone's interested it got 12700 DYK views ] (]) 07:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

== Links to fansites ==

Your opinions about whether and under what circumstances tennis biographies should include links to fansites would be welcome on the . ] (]) 09:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
:NO NO NO! ] Rule 11!] (]) 20:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
::Rule 11 does not forbid fansites. The word "normally" means something. If you wish to actually read the discussion on the talk page you'd have a better understanding of the issues. ''Before'' you start editing the article. --<font color="purple">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 22:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
:::Actually, Roger Federer does have a fansite that has been in existance since 2003, which was long before Murray, and is not included? Go Look ]!] (]) 02:22, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
::::It's quite simple, actually. Either come to consensus (which hasn't been done, apparently), or request an RFC discussion on the topic to force consensus to occur. Personally, fan sites do not typically belong here, as there are plenty of other places for fan sites to be listed (DMOZ, for example). There are exceptions, of course (The One Ring, for example, as a fan site for LotR, became notable). One key for inclusion is notability; one thing against adding a fan site is possible WP:COI from the site's creator in continually trying to add it to WP. ] (]) 02:58, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

:::::For me, a key part of the problem here is the use of the word "fansite". Typically, fansites are poorly designed and constructed, woefully short on content, low on facts and high on opinion. I'm sure we've all seen those kind of sites and clicked away immediately. However, there is another kind of site, one that I believe is better described as a "factsite". These sites take a subject and attempt to be authoritative, objective, comprehensive and professional. In this respect they are poles apart from regular fansites.

:::::Tennis "factsites" - such as murraysworld and goroger - have a wealth of content that is large enough to be considered as encyclopedic. Where Misplaced Pages is a finely tuned summary of all salient points, these sites have chapter and verse on these same points. Where Misplaced Pages will give you a quote, these sites have the whole interview. When Misplaced Pages can't tell you what you what to know, these sites very often can.

:::::Irrespective of the subject, any site that can provide a depth of information beyond that provided by Misplaced Pages is an obvious target for linking. If there is a consensus that the site also meets standards for objectivity and professionalism it would be a disservice to Wiki users if a link to the site was not provided.

:::::Although I have a natural dislike of advertising, I have no problem with the standards being set at murraysworld and I think that links to the site should be maintained, and periodically reviewed. I'm currently taking a deeper look at goroger. ] (]) 06:29, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

::::::If the "factsite" did the complete interview that the article is quoting, then the factsite would be listed under references. No need to be listed under external sources as well. If the factsite is duplicating the interview that was done by someone else, then the reference would point to the original content source, and the factsite would be bypassed as not being relevant (as potentially stealing another source's content and/or failing being unbiased). ] (]) 14:32, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::::I agree with you it should not be listed under external links it should be used only as refernces if needed, which should be rare because it should have a more reputable souce. Personally, I think http://www.murraysworld.com is a site that is not authoratative because it is not apart of a reputable paper or magazine. This must be avoided at all costs because wikipedia is not a random assortment of links! The external links should be streamlined with the ATP or WTA and the ITF profiles and the official website of the tennis player such as http://www.andymurray.com/ not a fansite like the aforementioned above!] (]) 00:36, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

== Fansites on External Links in Tennis Articles? ==

Should we allow this for all tennis players or expressidly forbid it according to the rules! ] has it, and ], ] do not, and they are trying to get consensus for one lone tennis player to have this at the sake for the entire community of tennis player articles as a whole!] (]) 02:26, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
:Fansites on External Links are not forbidden "according to the rules", Policy suggests that fansites are to be "avoided". And no one is trying to get consensus "for the entire community of tennis player articles as a whole". The discussion at ] is establishing consensus on one link for that one article. Every article should treat addition of any External Link on its own merits and ]. --<font color="purple">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 16:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
::This project should be able to establish its own standards about "avoiding" fansite links in tennis articles. That's what the project is for! ] (]) 03:22, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
:::I'm struggling to work out the difference between this topic and the previous one. Can someone please point it out? Thanks. ] (]) 04:48, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

:Fansites created by recognized authorities are fine.... even if someone makes more than one discussion section about them. ] (]) 07:43, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
::What exactly are authorities, when they are not affiliate with anything other than the fansite they created like Mark is? Authority-NO!] (]) 01:36, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

::It's kind of like http://www.goroger.com is an authority on Roger Federer? NOT! I think just because you are arround for a while and some station mentions you if that is even true at some point means your an authority! This is no more an authority than a random blog about a sportsperson, which means it is subjected to this criteria of a living person ] and ] and ], which go look at self publishing. This is the only article on wikipedia that has a fansite link that I have ever saw, which clealy should be viewed as being out of the norm! Murraysworld violates pretty much all of these rules and criteria!] (]) 20:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

:::Apologies TW-RF, but that's completely wrong. There isn't a single rule or criteria that Murraysworld "violates". The rules aren't the issue here; they very clearly allow for Murraysworld to be referenced as a link. The question is whether people think it's appropriate to include links to fansites within tennis articles, or not. It's that simple. ] (]) 20:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

::::With all due respect and sincerity, I think you misunderstood the rules David T Tokyo because a biography about a living person is not suppose to have a blog(fansite) on the page anywhere. I think fansites should be banned in perpetuity on wikipedia because whose to say which ones should and should not be included. Then, you get yourselves into an argument over authorities and whatnot.] (]) 21:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

:::::''"whose to say"'' There are many tools for rating websites including fansites, as well as ranking various degrees and types of authority. It's not merely a matter of opinion, though that can be accounted for also.
:::::There's no WP:BLP rule against an External link fansite – see that explained in the next section. ] 09:54, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

===Let's Start a For or Against Section===
'''Against''': This is because it violates the sources doctorine of the BLP (Biography of a Living Person), and this means for all tennis and all wikipedia articles all fansites must be removed no matter their subject matter or player!] (]) 00:16, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


{|
Polls are good, but this one is premised on a misconception. TW-RF incorrectly describes as relevant ] in which "sources" are discussed. Sources are used for numbered references in the article body. This poll concerns fansites in External links. External links are not sources or references, so WP:BLP doesn't apply. ] 09:34, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
| {{legend|#EAECF0|Active tournaments}}
:Agreed. And it hasn't been made absolutely clear what question is being polled. It may seem as pedantry, but half of the disagreement here is on how exactly to define things.
| {{legend|#0|Defunct tournaments}}
|}


<div class="covid19-container" role="region" tabindex="0">
:Could I suggest the question should be along the lines of; '''Should articles within the Tennis Project be permitted to have ] to sites other than recognised Tennis organisations or established professional publications? Or should they be removed as undesirable as ]? Please indicate Remove or Allow'''.
<div style="overflow-x:auto>
{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}{{table alignment}}
{| class="wikitable sortable mw-datatable defaultcenter col1left sort-under-center sticky-col1" style="margin:0; font-size: 90%"
|-
! scope="col" |Player
! scope="col" |Titles
! scope="col" | DU
! scope="col" | QA
! scope="col" | IW
! scope="col" | MI
! scope="col" | MA
! scope="col" | IT
! scope="col" | CA
! scope="col" | CI
! scope="col" | WU
! scope="col" | CN
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| VC
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| FL
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| CH
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| GE
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| SD
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| PH
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| KC
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| PP
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| GD
! scope="col" style="background-color:transparent"| ZU
! scope="col" |Years
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Hingis, Martina" | {{flagicon|SUI}} ]
| 26
| -
| -
|3
|4
|1
|'''<u>3</u>'''
|2
|1
|'''<u>3</u>'''
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| - || -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
|2
| -
|3
|1996–2017
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Raymond, Lisa" | {{flagicon|USA}} ]
| 24
| -
|1
|'''<u>5</u>'''
|3
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| - || -
|3
|1
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|'''<u>5</u>'''
| -
|2
|1999–2012
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Zvereva, Natasha" | {{flagicon|BLR}} ]
| 23
| - || -
|2
|2
| -
|2
|1|| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|3
|'''<u>4</u>'''
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|4
| -
| -
|1991–1999
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Stubbs, Rennae" | {{flagicon|AUS}} ]
| 19
| -
|1
|1
|1
| -
|1
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -
|2
| -
|1
|4
| -
|'''<u>5</u>'''
|1992–2008
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Black, Cara" | {{flagicon|ZIM}} ]
| 17
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
|2
|1
|1
| -
|1
| - || -
| -
|1
|'''<u>3</u>'''
| -
|1
|2
| -
|3
|2001–2013
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Sánchez Vicario, Arantxa" | {{flagicon|ESP}} ]
| 16
| - || -
| -
|5
| -
|2
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>4</u>'''
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
|1990–2001
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Novotná, Jana" | {{flagicon|TCH}} ]
| rowspan="2" | 14
| - || -
| -
|'''<u>6</u>'''
| -
|1
|'''<u>3</u>'''|| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
|2
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1992–1999
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Huber, Liezel" | {{flagicon|USA}} ]
|<u>'''2'''</u>
|1
|1
|1
|1
|1
|1
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
| -
| - || -
| -
|1
|1
| -
|1
|1
| -
| -
|2003–2012
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Hsieh, Su-wei" | '''{{flagicon|TPE}} ]'''
| 13
|1
|<u>'''2'''</u>
|4
| -
|1
|'''<u>3</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
|1
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2009–2024
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Ruano Pascual, Virginia" | {{flagicon|ESP}} ]
| 11
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
|2
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>4</u>'''
|1
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1998–2005
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Neiland, Larisa" | {{flagicon|LAT}} ]
| rowspan="2" | 10
| - || -
| -
|2
| -
| -
|'''<u>3</u>'''|| -
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| -
|3
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1991–1996
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Stosur, Samantha" | {{flagicon|AUS}} ]
| -
| -
|2
|2
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| - || -
|1
|1
| -
| -
|1
|2
| -
| -
|2005–2021
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Fernández, Gigi" | {{flagicon|ESP}} ]
| rowspan="9" | 9
| - || -
| -
|1
| -
|2
| -|| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|2
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
| -
|2
| -
| -
|1993–1996
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Davenport, Lindsay" | {{flagicon|USA}} ]
| -
| -
|4
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
| -
|2
| -
|1
|1997–2003
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Suárez, Paola" | {{flagicon|ARG}} ]
| -
| -
|2
| -
| -
|2
|1
| -
| -
| -
| - || -
|3
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1998–2005
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Navratilova, Martina" | {{flagicon|USA}} ]
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
|1
|'''<u>3</u>'''
| -
| -
| -
|'''<u>1</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2
|1990–2006
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Sugiyama, Ai" | {{flagicon|JPN}} ]
| -
| -
|1
|2
| -
|1
|2
| -
| -
| -
| - || -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
|2000–2008
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Petrova, Nadia" | {{flagicon|RUS}} ]
| -
| -
| -
|3
| -
|1
|1
| -
| -
| -
| - || -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|1
| -
| -
|2003–2013
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Srebotnik, Katarina" | {{flagicon|SLO}} ]
| -
| -
|1
|2
| -
|1
|2
| -
| -
|1
| - || -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
|2007–2014
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Mirza, Sania" | {{flagicon|IND}} ]
| -
| -
|2
|1
| -
|1
| -
|1
|1
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|2011–2016
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Chan, Latisha" | '''{{flagicon|TPE}} ]'''
| -
|1
|1
| -
|1
|2
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|1
|1
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2008–2017
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Peng, Shuai" | {{flagicon|CHN}} ]
| rowspan="3" | 8
| -
|1
|1
| -
| -
|'''<u>3</u>'''
| -
|1
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2009–2014
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Vesnina, Elena" | {{flagicon|RUS}} ]
|1
| -
|3
| -
|1
| -
|2
| -
| -
|1
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2008–2018
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Strýcová, Barbora" | {{flagicon|CZE}} ]
|1
|1
|1
| -
|1
|1
| -
|1
| -
|1
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|2010–2020
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Makarova, Ekaterina" | {{flagicon|RUS}} ]
| rowspan="4" | 7
|1
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
|2
|1
| -
|1
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2012–2018
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Peschke, Květa" | {{flagicon|CZE}} ]
| -
|1
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
|1
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
|2006–2020
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Mertens, Elise" | '''{{flagicon|BEL}} ]'''
| -
| -
|3
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
|1
| -
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1
| -
|2018–2024
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Mattek-Sands, Bethanie" | '''{{flagicon|USA}} ]'''
| -
| -
|1
|2
| -
| -
|1
| -
|1
|'''<u>2</u>'''
| - || -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2015–2024
|-
| style="text-align:left" data-sort-value="Errani, Sara" | {{flagicon|ITA}} ''']'''
| 6
| -
|1
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''
|2
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|2012–2024
|-style="background:#EAECF0; font-weight:bold; text-align:center" class="sortbottom"
!Player
!Titles!!DU!!QA!!IW!!MI!!MA!!IT!!CA!!CI!!WU!!CN!!VC!!FL!!CH!!GE!!SD!!PH!!KC!!PP!!GD!!ZU!!Years
|}</div>
* Players with 6+ titles. Active players and records are denoted in '''<u>bold</u>'''.
* 154 champions in 294 events as of '''2024 Rome'''.
::::{{Od|15}}
=== Continued discussion 2 ===
Pinging {{ping|Timeshifter|User:Jroberson108}} who sparked the idea for improvements.


In light of ] the above tables, namely, the 2nd one: ]
:This side-steps arguments of what is, or isn't, a fan-site and makes the basis of the either decision ], rather than disputed interpretation of other guidelines. --<font color="purple">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 17:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


{{#section-h:WTA 1000 Series singles records and statistics|Title leaders}}
== Capitalization ==


is and we cannot decide on what colors to use to distinguish between "Active" and "defunct tournaments" in the table's column headers. We are trying to make the table more accessible per ] and mobile user-friendly.
Is there a reason, a prior consensus, which accounts for the fact draw pages and several other articles on the tennis project use capitalization like "Men's Singles", "Women's Singles", etc...
As the ] is currently being reviewed to eventually become a Featured List, the question of whether the article should stay at this title or moved at "List of Wimbledon gentlemen's singles champions" has been raised. I'm not asking for the thousands of draw pages to be moved to non-capitalized versions, but if there is no good consensus about that perhaps we should, per ], move the lists of this template :
{{Grand Slam champions}}
--] (]) 23:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


You are welcome to contribute. ] (]) 01:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
== Wimbledon Tournament Titles ==
:After some consultation at ] for a more mobile and screen reader user-friendly design of the above table, I am proposing new designs below for additional feedback from the tennis community.


:The design focus is on table's header, currently located at ], which I am later planning on implementing to the other 1000 records-related pages:
The refers to the tournaments played there as the "Gentlemen's Singles" and "Ladies' Singles", so why do the pages at Wimbledon refer to them as the "Men's Singles" and "Women's Singles"? The same is true of the other events, I'm just using Men and Women as an example. Surely pages such as ] should reflect this?
:{{ubl|]|]|]}}
:once consensus is reached.


==== With color scheme 1 ====
Apologies if this was raised elsewhere, or if I'm putting it in the wrong place.
:{|
|{{legend inline|#2FCDAD|Active tournaments}}
|{{legend inline|#EAECF0|Defunct tournaments}}
|}
:{{legend| white | Active players and most titles won per tournament are denoted in '''<u>bold</u>.'''| outline = black | textcolor = black| text = '''<big>*</big>'''}}


{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}
] (]) 09:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
:{| class="wikitable mw-datatable sortable sort-under-center sticky-table-head sticky-table-col2" style="font-size: 90%; text-align:center"
|+ {{sro|Title leaders}}
|-
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Titles
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Player
! scope=colgroup colspan=10 |Active tournaments
! scope=colgroup colspan=8 |Defunct tournaments
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Years
|-
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|DU|}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" class="sticky-table-none" | {{abbr|QA|Qatar Open}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|IW|Indian Wells Open}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|MI|Miami Open}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|MA|Madrid Open}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|IT|Italian Open}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|CA|Canadian Open}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|CI|Cincinnati Open}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|WU|Wuhan Open}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" style="border-right: 1pt black solid;" | {{abbr|CN|China Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|FL|Virginia Slims of Florida}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|CH|Charleston Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|GE|German Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|SD|San Diego Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|PH|Virginia Slims of Philadelphia}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|KC|Kremlin Cup}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|PP|Pan Pacific Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|ZU|Zurich Open}}
|-
! scope="row" |23
|style="text-align:left" | {{sort|Williams.|{{flagg|uxx|USA}} ]}}
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''*
|'''<u>8</u>'''*
|2
|'''<u>4</u>'''*
|3
|'''<u>2</u>'''*
| -
|style="border-right: 1pt black solid|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1999–2016
|}


:OR
: Particularly if you have a page which is then titled ]. It seems to be a contradiction. ] (]) 09:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


==== With color scheme 2 ====
:: I'll make the change to the 2009 events (WP:BOLD) citing this point as the reason, leaving behind the redirects so that the template still works that links each tournament together. It'll probably get a much quicker answer to my question. ] (]) 09:34, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
:{|
|{{legend inline|#EAECF0|Active tournaments}}
|{{legend inline|#2FCDAD|Defunct tournaments}}
|}
:{{legend| white | Active players and most titles won per tournament are denoted in '''<u>bold</u>.'''| outline = black | textcolor = black| text = '''<big>*</big>'''}}


{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}
::: Furthermore, the tournaments for the seniors are still titled ]. I shall make no further edits on this issue until I get a reply here. ] (]) 09:40, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
:{| class="wikitable mw-datatable sortable sort-under-center sticky-table-head sticky-table-col2" style="font-size: 90%; text-align:center"
|+ {{sro|Title leaders}}
|-
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Titles
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Player
! scope=colgroup colspan=10 |Active tournaments
! scope=colgroup colspan=8 |Defunct tournaments
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Years
|-
! scope="col" | {{abbr|DU|}}
! scope="col" class="sticky-table-none" | {{abbr|QA|Qatar Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|IW|Indian Wells Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|MI|Miami Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|MA|Madrid Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|IT|Italian Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|CA|Canadian Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|CI|Cincinnati Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|WU|Wuhan Open}}
! scope="col" style="border-right: 1pt black solid;" | {{abbr|CN|China Open}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|FL|Virginia Slims of Florida}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|CH|Charleston Open}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|GE|German Open}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|SD|San Diego Open}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|PH|Virginia Slims of Philadelphia}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|KC|Kremlin Cup}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|PP|Pan Pacific Open}}
! scope="col" style="background-color:#2FCDAD" | {{abbr|ZU|Zurich Open}}
|-
! scope="row" |23
|style="text-align:left" | {{sort|Williams.|{{flagg|uxx|USA}} ]}}
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''*
|'''<u>8</u>'''*
|2
|'''<u>4</u>'''*
|3
|'''<u>2</u>'''*
| -
|style="border-right: 1pt black solid|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1999–2016
|}


:OR
== Nationalities ==


==== Without color scheme ====
There are inconsistencies in regards to what country flag to put on a player. Two players in particular. Martina Navratilova and Molla Mallory. I'm not convinced which way it should be but the two (to me at least) are in total opposition to each other and we should make some sort of ruling for the article's sake. Martina Navratilova lost her Czech citizenship in 1975 when she came to the US but didn't become a US citizen till 1981 yet many of her listings show a Czech flag in the 1975-1981 years. However Molla Mallory came to the US in 1915 from Norway (I believe she retained her Norwegian citizenship), played and won the US Championships yet instantly gets a US flag? I have no idea if she ever became a citizen. What determines a country flag status on wiki so that we can be consistent here? Thanks. ] (]) 06:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
:{{legend| white | Active players and most titles won per tournament are denoted in '''<u>bold</u>.'''| outline = black | textcolor = black| text = '''<big>*</big>'''}}


{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}
:Putting a flag is making a binary decision on a complicated issue of nationality. They oversimplify a situation which can only be explained properly by text, as you have done above.
:{| class="wikitable mw-datatable sortable sort-under-center sticky-table-head sticky-table-col2" style="font-size: 90%; text-align:center"
:Always choose saying nothing over saying something potentially misleading - just leave out the flags. They're only decoration after all, and it's far better to remain silent than oversimplify in the name of decoration. ] (]) 08:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
|+ {{sro|Title leaders}}
|-
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Titles
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Player
! scope=colgroup colspan=10 |Active tournaments
! scope=colgroup colspan=8 |Defunct tournaments
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Years
|-
! scope="col" | {{abbr|DU|}}
! scope="col" class="sticky-table-none" | {{abbr|QA|Qatar Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|IW|Indian Wells Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|MI|Miami Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|MA|Madrid Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|IT|Italian Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|CA|Canadian Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|CI|Cincinnati Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|WU|Wuhan Open}}
! scope="col" style="border-right: 1pt black solid;" | {{abbr|CN|China Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|FL|Virginia Slims of Florida}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|CH|Charleston Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|GE|German Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|SD|San Diego Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|PH|Virginia Slims of Philadelphia}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|KC|Kremlin Cup}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|PP|Pan Pacific Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|ZU|Zurich Open}}
|-
! scope="row" |23
|style="text-align:left" | {{sort|Williams.|{{flagg|uxx|USA}} ]}}
| -
| -
|'''<u>2</u>'''*
|'''<u>8</u>'''*
|2
|'''<u>4</u>'''*
|3
|'''<u>2</u>'''*
| -
|style="border-right: 1pt black solid|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1999–2016
|}
:I have come up with the following designs: Leaning towards the 3rd option. Thoughts? ] (]) 15:19, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
::Have you considered using ] for the tournament names? This would eliminate the need for ], which is not compatible with mobile browsing, and the legend for the abbreviations (it's not clear to me whether that is still a part of the proposal or not).
::The player name should be row header, not the number of titles, because the data in each row relates to the player, not the number of titles. In the case of ties, you would also have rows without headers.
::Would active players not be distinguished by an open range in the years column (e.g. "1992–")? If so, it would be redundant to bold active player names. When player names are the row headers, they will be bolded anyway, so this avoids a conflict. Otherwise, perhaps use an explanatory footnote or italic typeface?
::I think bolding the highest number in each column is fairly self-evident and wouldn't need to be explained in a legend. I also think we can ditch the underlining and asterisk as redundant.
::I prefer the third design, without color. With the column groups, the color is redundant.
{{mw-datatable}}
::{| class="wikitable mw-datatable sortable sort-under-center sticky-table-head sticky-table-col2" style="font-size: 90%; text-align:center"
|+ {{sro|Title leaders}}
|-
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Titles
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Player
! scope=colgroup colspan=10 |Active tournaments
! scope=colgroup colspan=8 |Defunct tournaments
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Years
|-
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]|}}
! scope="col" class="sticky-table-none" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
|-
| 23
! scope="row" data-sort-value="Williams"| {{flagg|uxx|USA}} ]
| -
| -
|'''2'''
|'''8'''
|2
|'''4'''
|3
|'''2'''
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1999–2016
|}
::--] (]) 19:57, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
:::{{tl|vertical header}} would impede the view on mobile due to the egregiously tall sticky column headers are used which would nullify the effect of the stickiness rendering vertical scrolling useless. ] (]) 21:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
::::Using some simple abbreviations would shorten the height of the headers.
::::{| class="wikitable mw-datatable sortable sort-under-center sticky-table-head sticky-table-col2" style="font-size: 90%; text-align:center"
|+ {{sro|Title leaders}}
|-
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Titles
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Player
! scope=colgroup colspan=10 |Active tournaments
! scope=colgroup colspan=8 |Defunct tournaments
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Years
|-
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]|}}
! scope="col" class="sticky-table-none" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
! scope="col" {{vertical header|]}}
|-
| 23
! scope="row" data-sort-value="Williams"| {{flagg|uxx|USA}} ]
| -
| -
|'''2'''
|'''8'''
|2
|'''4'''
|3
|'''2'''
| -
|1
| -
|1
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
| -
|1999–2016
|}
::::--] (]) 22:39, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::Turning the text sideways hurts my eyes... it is very difficult to read that way. ] (]) 22:46, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::843 other articles currently use vertical headers in their tables. --] (]) 22:55, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::843 strained necks and sore eyes for our readers... great. Luckily we can afford to be kinder to our readers. ] (]) 00:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
:: Also, I think the differentiated border between the active and defunct tournaments is redundant with the column groups and therefore unneeded. However, if you do keep it, you should probably extend it up a row to the border between the column groups. I also think you should use weight instead of color to differentiate. When you set the default color as black, it is black even when the user has dark mode set, rather than the default border color, and it actually minimizes, rather than emphasizes, the separation. --] (]) 22:55, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
:::@], the chart already has a key for the events' abbreviations (see ]). ] (]) 23:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
::::So retaining the legend, this would be my suggestion:
{{mw-datatable}}{{sort under}}
::::{| class="wikitable mw-datatable sortable sort-under-center sticky-table-head sticky-table-col2" style="font-size: 90%; text-align:center"
|+ {{sro|Title leaders}}
|-
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Titles
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Player
! scope=colgroup colspan=10 |Active tournaments
! scope=colgroup colspan=8 |Defunct tournaments
! scope="col" rowspan="2" |Years
|-
! scope="col" | {{abbr|DU|Dubai Championship}}
! scope="col" class="sticky-table-none" | {{abbr|QA|Qatar Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|IW|Indian Wells Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|MI|Miami Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|MA|Madrid Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|IT|Italian Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|CA|Canadian Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|CI|Cincinnati Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|WU|Wuhan Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|CN|China Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|FL|Virginia Slims of Florida}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|CH|Charleston Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|GE|German Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|SD|San Diego Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|PH|Virginia Slims of Philadelphia}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|KC|Kremlin Cup}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|PP|Pan Pacific Open}}
! scope="col" | {{abbr|ZU|Zurich Open}}
|-
| 23
! scope="row" data-sort-value="Williams"| {{flagg|uxx|USA}} ]
| {{n/a}}
| {{n/a}}
|'''2'''
|'''8'''
|2
|'''4'''
|3
|'''2'''
| {{n/a}}
|1
| {{n/a}}
|1
| {{n/a}}
| {{n/a}}
| {{n/a}}
| {{n/a}}
| {{n/a}}
| {{n/a}}
|1999–2016
|}
::::Grey is the default color for {{tl|n/a}}, but that can be changed if it's important. --] (]) 03:34, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
:: Looking closer, it looks like the chart is mistakenly using a hyphen for a null cell when an em-dash would be the correct symbol. You should consider using ] instead. --] (]) 03:26, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
:::- over — makes for a cleaner look. N/a just adds darkened cells which I really don't like and prefer the chart looked as simple as possible, color-wise. The above choice is pretty much ] and symbols are needed per ] when emphasizing text. ] (]) 09:36, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
::::On this I will only say that we would never use hypens (-)... either ndash (–) or mdash (—). I usually prefer ndash but it's no matter. ] (]) 21:15, 24 September 2024 (UTC)


== ] ==
::I think the first decision is whether the flag refers to the nationality of the person, or the game of tennis. In the ], the flags applied refer to the nationality or the country under which play was carried out, ie referring to the game, and not the person. This means that players of one nationality could have a flag of another. However, if you are referring to the player biographies, then it is my opinion that flags should refer only to their specific nationality and citizenship, even if the country under which they play the game is different. ]\<sup>]</sup> 11:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
{{Moved to|Template talk:5-set tennis#Borders missing in latest update}}


== Heavy discussion on Career Grand Slam tables that needs more eyes ==
:::And our readers are supposed to second-guess which of those interpretations we've used at each article? No, this is not acceptable - if the readers don't realise the hidden criteria (and why would they?), they will assume that this player's nationality is simply that of the flag, and this will be an incorrect oversimplification.
:::No the "first decision" is as to why we need these decorations anyway. The player's birth nationality/adopted citizenship/sporting nationality are explained in the text - far more precisely than a single little rectangle, colourful as it may be. ] (]) 11:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


We are having a dickens of a time trying to come together on a Career Grand Slam chart for ]. There only three of us but I admit that the other two have spent much more quality time on it than I have. I just have some big issues on sorting and using keys when it comes to our readers than my fellow editors do. Input here or there would be much appreciated. The whole topic is at ] but a lot of the recent conversation is at ]. Thanks all. ] (]) 06:27, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
::::Well I do think they are important because the public in general thinks they are important. The news will say something like "and an English player hasn't won Wimbledon since Fred Perry" or ""German players have won 35 slams" or other such thing and people will look that up, and they will look it up here. Martina has always been particularly troubling since she had no citizenship at all from 75-81, but now I see Mallory listed as US instantly when she still had Norwegian citizenship (unless she got fast-tracked back in 1915). The article on wiki flag usage says it indicates citizenship, nationality etc... It even mentions case by case determination. And under nationality it says that the person need not be a citizen for it to apply. Further it mentions to take into consideration a person's "sporting nationality," whatever that means, and that flags should "never indicate the player's nationality in a non-sporting sense." I just wanted consistency to keep the articles nice and tight. ] (]) 17:41, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


:The ] has reached a conclusion. The ] is now live. ] (]) 10:41, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::Nowhere did I say nationality should not be mentioned. All I said is that in ambiguous or complicated cases, a single flag graphic is not precise enough to explain the situation. In these ambiguous or complicated cases, flags should be omitted and it should be left to the article text to explain the nationality issue in more detail.
:::::Consistency is no justification for misleading readers by oversimplifying complicated matters. Keeping articles "nice and tight" is secondary to having them contain precise and accurate information. ] (]) 12:04, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


== Laver Cup ==
::::::So are you advocating eradication of Navratilova flags between 1975 and 1981? What about Mallory? ] (]) 18:13, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


Can the Laver Cup be considered an exhibition tournament? If not, why not?
:::::::Anything which misleading or ambiguous should be removed. That's a general principle for an encyclopaedia. ] (]) 18:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


It has the contradiction of having been added to the ATP circuit in 2019, but it is not an event that provides ranking points. ] (]) 05:20, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
<CR>I'm not saying consistency over all of wikipedia. Martina and Molla have different flags for those years depending on what article you read. I would have had US flags for both of them for consistency but if consensus says otherwise that's fine too. Just so they aren't different everywhere I look. If that means no flags then so be it, however since Molla doesn't say when (or if) she gained US citizenship she would never get a flag of any kind through the rest of her years. ] (]) 20:15, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
:It's one of those iffy things. It's sort of like the Next Gen ATP Finals.... in limbo... more than exhibition though still wimpy. But no ranking points for Olympics either and it's not exhibition. ] (]) 05:28, 26 September 2024 (UTC)


== Example of one reason why Misplaced Pages increasingly loses respect ==


This project is the quintessential example of why Misplaced Pages is increasingly losing respect. It seems unless you are a member of this Tennis Project clique, your work on tennis pages will immediately be altered or removed. There are dozens, if not more, tennis articles about obscure players with few or no citations. There are many noteworthy BLP articles filled with unsourced content and over the top stats like "Joe Bloggs won his third match at this tournament in 10 appearances" or nonsense like "Joe Bloggs made his Major debut at this Major and won his first match at a Major"...well if it's his debut and he wins a match of course it's his first win. It doesn't need saying! There is one particular editor (Sashona) in your project who puts so much tiny stat related detail in and either doesn't cite it or uses random Twitter accounts to back it up. They, and a few others, act as if the tennis pages on here are their own personal property, pouncing on every edit made outside their clique and changing it no matter how well cited it may be. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be a 💕 for the world, edited in good faith by anyone, with everything appropriately sourced. Unfortunately when it comes to tennis pages, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia for the few, edited by a clique, packed full of unsourced trivia and clogged up by biographies of players who never made the top 300 or played a significant match in their entire careers. Oh, and one last thing, Misplaced Pages is a worldwide encyclopedia so insisting everything be written in a certain way because "that's what we say in the US" is ridiculous. Wimbledon, French Open, US Open and Australian Open are in fact Grand Slam tournaments no matter how often Americans call them Majors and titleist is at best nonsense and at worst not even a word! I could give more examples but none of you Tennis Project clique members give too hoots so I will stop there. I got this off my chest and if it gets deleted immediately I don't care. Also if you want to hurl abuse at me on my talk page or in reply to this then enjoy. ] (]) 08:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
:Actually go and do you research because according to the only slam records that matters for this period of time in the late 1970's she competed as an American, period end of story Wimbledon 78-79! Here is further sources for you all to look at<ref>http://aeltc.wimbledon.org/en_GB/about/history/rolls/ladiesroll.html</ref><ref>http://www.answers.com/topic/martina-navratilova</ref><ref>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7BUOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=W30DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7238,1608590&dq=martina+navratilova</ref><ref>http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761576078/martina_navratilova.html</ref><ref>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7BUOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=W30DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7238,1608590&dq=martina+navratilova</ref><ref>http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=martina+navratilova&scoring=a&hl=en&ned=us&sa=N&sugg=d&as_ldate=1975/09&as_hdate=1975/09&lnav=hist8</ref><ref>http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=martina+navratilova&scoring=a&hl=en&ned=us&sa=N&cid=8483616971554851</ref>] (]) 17:51, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
:I'm going to reverse the decision to blanket remove this from the talk page. While I agree some of what's written might fall into ]. , you said on removal that "some of what was written is true." It might be worth elaborating on your thoughts rather than removal, if it leads to the health of the information on Misplaced Pages then it merits a discussion. ] (]) 21:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
::If we deny that she competed as an American then we will rewrite the wimbledon record on an authoratative encyclopedia, which is not what we should ever do! I went to the source that matters and made our records match!] (]) 17:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
:::Some of this is true, but most is total baloney by an editor guilty of the same things he is ranting against and perhaps some ignorance in the world of tennis. Looking at them, many of his edits are just fine. Some have been unsourced pov or against Misplaced Pages standards. But he got it off his chest so that's a good thing. I looked at the post as grandstanding without an actual question, and I removed it, but another editor brought it back for comment.
{{reflist}}


:::*"This project is the quintessential example of why Misplaced Pages is increasingly losing respect." - A load of crap with this. All you need to do is look at any political article and see where the respect is draining away.
::And yet if you look at ] Martina keeps getting switched to a Czech flag, so there is at least one person who disagrees with you. ] (]) 08:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
:::The idiots on here won't go an do their research will they? This site makes it clear from the source of the tounament http://aeltc.wimbledon.org/en_GB/about/history/rolls/ladiesroll.html and http://aeltc2009.wimbledon.org/en_GB/about/history/rolls/ladiesroll.html] (]) 18:32, 26 July 2009 (UTC)


:::*"It seems unless you are a member of this Tennis Project clique, your work on tennis pages will immediately be altered or removed." - More baloney. Some editors do that to be sure but not most, and not some clique.
== top tennis players template up for deletion ==


:::*"There are dozens, if not more, tennis articles about obscure players with few or no citations. There are many noteworthy BLP articles filled with unsourced content and over the top stats." - No question this is true. I think we already knew this but many of our articles could be trimmed by 50%-75%.
] is up for ]. Figured I'd put this here because it's been relisted with a currently 3-2 vote. I think it's a pretty useful template, especially considering there isn't a page (that I can find) that lists who is in the top ten for either men's or women's doubles. ] (]) 22:34, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


:::*"There is one particular editor (Sashona) in your project who puts so much tiny stat related detail in and either doesn't cite it or uses random Twitter accounts to back it up." - Some things are true and hard to argue with. That editor is a problem for me too. If it's not over-detail it's too lengthy of section headers that hammer the tables of contents for browsers or his refusal to obey wikipedia rules on capitalization.
== Are there enough articles on this subject to justify an ]? ==


:::*"when it comes to tennis pages, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia for the few, edited by a clique, packed full of unsourced trivia and clogged up by biographies of players who never made the top 300 or played a significant match in their entire careers." - Partial truth here. It is packed full of trivia, and I wish it were not. But it's not edited by a clique. There are actually not all that many tennis editors so it may appear so. But in those few editors they disagree among themselves all the time... there is no clique.
].


:::*The rest I'll attribute to ignorance of tennis.
''''']''''' 00:03, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
:::So you got your response. ] (]) 22:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
::::@] Show me where I've used unsourced pov content? ] (]) 22:27, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::As for not meeting Misplaced Pages standards. You told me in August not to use scoring in prose unless it's a record and I haven't done since. If welcome further examples so I can seek to improve. @] ] (]) 22:42, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::@] As for "ignorance of tennis" you know nothing about me and just because you write about tennis on Misplaced Pages doesn't make you an expert. I'm an informed, long time tennis fan and former low level player. I do the best I can and I learn from constructive advice such as detailed above but I'm certainly not ignorant and I resent the remark and ask you to retract it. ] (]) 22:46, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::You know something.... the pov edit was attributed to another editor. I was wrong on that. Sorry. I originally said "perhaps some ignorance." I had no idea your tennis background but the last part on tennis majors is simply wrong and I attribute ignorance (lack of knowledge on that matter.) There can be other reasons why you are wrong that I don't know about, but lack of knowledge on the terminology seemed to me the best reason at the time. ] (]) 23:25, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::And agreeing with {{ping|Shrug02}}, editor Sashona continues to add long section headers that make table of contents too wide. Silly items like "top 60" to ] or not adhering to the absolute biggest item of the period (like winning an event) and instead adding 3rd round or making their first appearance. This is an encyclopedia and them adding the trivia is a detraction. ] (]) 02:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)


== Unreferenced tennis competition articles ==
P.S.: See Misplaced Pages's collection of outlines at ].


Hello WP Tennis! I am a volunteer with ]; we are in the midst of our November 2024 backlog drive and a few editors recently went through and tagged few hundred articles are unreferenced. Most of these are part of the ] and I'm having some trouble finding citations for them. Would you have any suggestions for perennial sources? Sports is not my metier and I don't want to make a bunch of edits that are obviously detrimental to the project overall and frustrating to WP Tennis editors. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Best, ] (]) 19:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
==The ] is factually inaccurate!==


:All the ATP Challenger Tour events are listed at , basic information about the tournament, along with the draw and tournament results can be cited to the appropriate pages. More detailed information may be tougher to cite as challenger tournaments vary hugely in how much coverage they receive. ]★] -- 19:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
Here's the paragraph with the tag (in bold) that should be in that article (but is not being allowed by rogue administrator ] because he cares more about getting the article to featured status than factual accuracy): "The method used to calculate a player's ranking points has changed several times. As of 2009, it is calculated by totalling the points from the four ] tournaments and eight mandatory ] tournaments. It also includes points from the player's best four eligible ] tournaments and their best two results from ], ], and Futures Series.'''clarify|subst:July 2009|reason=This is an overgeneralization that does not apply to players who were outside the top 30 in the last year-end rankings. Refer to the actual ATP rulebook, not a secondary, summary document like an incomplete FAQ.''' The ranking points of players who qualify for the year-end ] will additionally include points gained at that tournament." ] (]) 21:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::@] - much obliged! And the ATP site is considered a reliable source by WP Tennis? Just making sure I'm not about to get reverted 10,000 times for my trouble. Thanks for the speedy response. ] (]) 17:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
:::Yes, the ATP is a generally reliable source for the existence of tournaments held on their tours and for the results of those tournaments; though as the ATP is also the organiser of those tournaments, their website would be considered a ] source, so ideally other sources would also be included to flesh out the articles. ]★] -- 17:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
::::@] - excellent, thank you for the help. ] (]) 13:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 16:40, 14 December 2024

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1000 title leaders charts

I have been testing new versions in "Title leader" in women's singles to distinguish the active events from defunct. See below the original and 3 versions. Which one do you vote for?

I plan to implement this new design to the other 3 related articles once a consensus is reached:

1. men's singles

2. men's doubles and

3. women's doubles. Qwerty284651 (talk) 02:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Original (events not categorized by active/defunct)

Boc (Boca Raton) Dub (Dubai) Doh (Doha) Ind (Indian Wells) Mia (Miami) Cha (Charleston)
Mad (Madrid) Ber (Berlin) Rom (Rome) Can (Canada) San (San Diego) Cin (Cincinnati)
Phi (Philadelphia) Mos (Moscow) Tok (Tokyo) Wuh (Wuhan) Zur (Zürich) Bei (Beijing)
Player Titles Boc Dub Doh Ind Mia Cha Mad Ber Rom Can San Cin Phi Mos Tok Wuh Zur Bei Years
United States Serena Williams 23 - - - 2 8 1 2 - 4 3 - 2 - - - - - 1 1999–2016
Switzerland Martina Hingis 17 - - - 1 2 2 - 1 2 2 - - - 1 5 - 1 - 1997–2007
Germany Steffi Graf 15 1 - - 1 3 1 - 5 - 2 - - 1 - 1 - - - 1990–1996
Russia Maria Sharapova 14 - - 1 2 - - 1 - 3 - 2 1 - - 2 - 1 1 2005–2015
United States Lindsay Davenport 11 - - - 2 - - - - - - 1 - - - 4 - 4 - 1997–2005
Belgium Justine Henin 10 - - - 1 - 2 - 3 - 2 - - - - - - 2 - 2002–2007
Belarus Victoria Azarenka - - 2 2 3 - - - - - - 2 - - - - - 1 2009–2020
Poland Iga Świątek - - 2 2 1 - 1 - 3 - - - - - - - - 1 2021–2024
Spain Conchita Martínez 9 - - - - - 2 - 2 4 - - - 1 - - - - - 1993–2000
United States Monica Seles - - - - 2 - - 1 2 4 - - - - - - - - 1990–2000
United States Venus Williams - 2 - - 3 1 - - 1 - - - - - - 1 1 - 1998–2015
Romania Simona Halep - 1 1 1 - - 2 - 1 3 - - - - - - - - 2014–2022
Czech Republic Petra Kvitová - - 1 - 1 - 3 - - 1 - - - - 1 2 - - 2011–2023
Belgium Kim Clijsters 7 - - - 2 2 - - - 1 1 - 1 - - - - - - 2003–2010
Spain Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 6 - - - - 2 1 - - 1 2 - - - - - - - - 1992–1996
France Amélie Mauresmo - - - - - - - 2 2 2 - - - - - - - - 2001–2005
Serbia Jelena Janković - - - 1 - 1 - - 2 - - 1 - 1 - - - - 2007–2010
Denmark Caroline Wozniacki - 1 - 1 - - - - - 1 - - - - 1 - - 2 2010–2018
Argentina Gabriela Sabatini 5 1 - - - - 2 - - 2 - - - - - - - - - 1991–1992
France Mary Pierce - - - - - 1 - - 1 - 1 - - 2 - - - - 1997–2005
Russia Dinara Safina - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 - - - - 1 - - - 2008–2009
Poland Agnieszka Radwańska - - - - 1 - - - - 1 - - - - 1 - - 2 2011–2016
Belarus Aryna Sabalenka - - 1 - - - 2 - - - - - - - - 2 - - 2018–2023
Player Titles Boc Dub Doh Ind Mia Cha Mad Ber Rom Can San Cin Phi Mos Tok Wuh Zur Bei Years
  • Players with 5+ titles. Active players and records are denoted in bold.
  • 73 champions in 294 events as of 2024 Rome.

Version 1 (events listed in time slot chronological order)

  Active tournaments   Defunct tournaments
Boc (Boca Raton)
Dub (Dubai)
Doh (Doha)
Ind (Indian Wells)
Mia (Miami)
Cha (Charleston)
Mad (Madrid)
Ber (Berlin)
Rom (Rome)
Can (Canada)
San (San Diego)
Cin (Cincinnati)
Phi (Philadelphia)
Mos (Moscow)
Tok (Tokyo)
Wuh (Wuhan)
Zur (Zürich)
Bei (Beijing)
Player Titles Boc Dub Doh Ind Mia Cha Mad Ber Rom Can San Cin Phi Mos Tok Wuh Zur Bei Years
United States Serena Williams 23 - - - 2 8 1 2 - 4 3 - 2 - - - - - 1 1999–2016

Version 2 (active followed by defunct events)

  Active tournaments   Defunct tournaments
Dub (Dubai)
Doh (Doha)
Ind (Indian Wells)
Mia (Miami)
Mad (Madrid)
Rom (Rome)
Can (Canada)
Cin (Cincinnati)
Wuh (Wuhan)
Bei (Beijing)
Boc (Boca Raton)
Cha (Charleston)
Ber (Berlin)
San (San Diego)
Phi (Philadelphia)
Mos (Moscow)
Tok (Tokyo)
Zur (Zürich)
Player Titles Dub Doh Ind Mia Mad Rom Can Cin Wuh Bei Boc Cha Ber San Phi Mos Tok Zur Years
United States Serena Williams 23 - - 2 8 2 4 3 2 - 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1999–2016

Version 3 (defunct followed by active events)

  Active tournaments   Defunct tournaments
Boc (Boca Raton)
Cha (Charleston)
Ber (Berlin)
San (San Diego)
Phi (Philadelphia)
Mos (Moscow)
Tok (Tokyo)
Zur (Zürich)
Dub (Dubai)
Doh (Doha)
Ind (Indian Wells)
Mia (Miami)
Mad (Madrid)
Rom (Rome)
Can (Canada)
Cin (Cincinnati)
Wuh (Wuhan)
Bei (Beijing)
Player Titles Boc Cha Ber San Phi Mos Tok Zur Dub Doh Ind Mia Mad Rom Can Cin Wuh Bei Years
United States Serena Williams 23 - 1 - - - - - - - - 2 8 2 4 3 2 - 1 1999–2016

Timeshifter's table

Note: I removed the table from the collapsible show/hide box. Horizontal sticky row headers do not work correctly inside the box in Firefox in Windows 10 Pro. Nor in Safari in my iphone SE 2020. See the table inside the box in this version of the page.
nowrap has been left in so that this table can be compared to Qwerty284651's table (without nowrap) in portrait view on cell phones. We both agree that nowrap should not be used. Nowrap messes up portrait view on mobile by making the location column take up too much width (see discussion). On desktop PC monitor (Windows 10 Pro) there appears to be a bug (in Firefox only) in dealing with nowrap that causes the table to be cut off slightly at the end of the row, and the horizontal scrollbar appears.

I edited version 2 (active followed by defunct events) to get the following table below. I lessened the height with this:

<div class="scroll-container" style="max-height:50vh;">

The article editors can decide what scrolling table height to use.

New readers: Sticky horizontal headers work. Lessen your browser window width to see. Also, feel free to start your own table section here, or in a user sandbox.

The table below (when nowrap is ignored or removed) is working perfectly on my desktop PC monitor in Windows 10 Pro. Also on my iphone SE 2020 (in portrait and landscape view). It has been tested in Safari, Firefox, Chrome, Edge, and Opera. The row and column headers are both sticky.

  Active tournaments   Defunct tournaments
  • Bei (Beijing)
  • Ber (Berlin)
  • Boc (Boca Raton)
  • Can (Canada)
  • Cha (Charleston)
  • Cin (Cincinnati)
  • Doh (Doha)
  • Dub (Dubai)
  • Ind (Indian Wells)
  • Mad (Madrid)
  • Mia (Miami)
  • Mos (Moscow)
  • Phi (Philadelphia)
  • Rom (Rome)
  • San (San Diego)
  • Tok (Tokyo)
  • Wuh (Wuhan)
  • Zur (Zürich)
Player Titles Dub Doh Ind Mia Mad Rom Can Cin Wuh Bei Boc Cha Ber San Phi Mos Tok Zur Years
United States Serena Williams 23 - - 2 8 2 4 3 2 - 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1999–2016
Switzerland Martina Hingis 17 - - 1 2 - 2 2 - - - - 2 1 - - 1 5 1 1997–2007
Germany Steffi Graf 15 - - 1 3 - - 2 - - - 1 1 5 - 1 - 1 - 1990–1996
Russia Maria Sharapova 14 - 1 2 - 1 3 - 1 - 1 - - - 2 - - 2 1 2005–2015
United States Lindsay Davenport 11 - - 2 - - - - - - - - - - 1 - - 4 4 1997–2005
Belgium Justine Henin 10 - - 1 - - - 2 - - - - 2 3 - - - - 2 2002–2007
Belarus Victoria Azarenka - 2 2 3 - - - 2 - 1 - - - - - - - - 2009–2020
Poland Iga Świątek - 2 2 1 1 3 - - - 1 - - - - - - - - 2021–2024
Spain Conchita Martínez 9 - - - - - 4 - - - - - 2 2 - 1 - - - 1993–2000
United States Monica Seles - - - 2 - 2 4 - - - - - 1 - - - - - 1990–2000
United States Venus Williams 2 - - 3 - 1 - - 1 - - 1 - - - - - 1 1998–2015
Romania Simona Halep 1 1 1 - 2 1 3 - - - - - - - - - - - 2014–2022
Czech Republic Petra Kvitová - 1 - 1 3 - 1 - 2 - - - - - - - 1 - 2011–2023
Belgium Kim Clijsters 7 - - 2 2 - 1 1 1 - - - - - - - - - - 2003–2010
Spain Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 6 - - - 2 - 1 2 - - - - 1 - - - - - - 1992–1996
France Amélie Mauresmo - - - - - 2 2 - - - - - 2 - - - - - 2001–2005
Serbia Jelena Janković - - 1 - - 2 - 1 - - - 1 - - - 1 - - 2007–2010
Denmark Caroline Wozniacki 1 - 1 - - - 1 - - 2 - - - - - - 1 - 2010–2018
Argentina Gabriela Sabatini 5 - - - - - 2 - - - - 1 2 - - - - - - 1991–1992
France Mary Pierce - - - - - 1 - - - - - 1 - 1 - 2 - - 1997–2005
Russia Dinara Safina - - - - 1 1 1 - - - - - 1 - - - 1 - 2008–2009
Poland Agnieszka Radwańska - - - 1 - - 1 - - 2 - - - - - - 1 - 2011–2016
Belarus Aryna Sabalenka - 1 - - 2 - - - 2 - - - - - - - - - 2018–2023
Player Titles Dub Doh Ind Mia Mad Rom Can Cin Wuh Bei Boc Cha Ber San Phi Mos Tok Zur Years
  • Players with 5+ titles. Active players and records are denoted in bold.
  • 73 champions in 294 events as of 2024 Rome.

--Timeshifter (talk) 11:58, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Qwerty284651's table

  Active tournaments   Defunct tournaments
  • Bei (Beijing)
  • Ber (Berlin)
  • Boc (Boca Raton)
  • Can (Canada)
  • Cha (Charleston)
  • Cin (Cincinnati)
  • Doh (Doha)
  • Dub (Dubai)
  • Ind (Indian Wells)
  • Mad (Madrid)
  • Mia (Miami)
  • Mos (Moscow)
  • Phi (Philadelphia)
  • Rom (Rome)
  • San (San Diego)
  • Tok (Tokyo)
  • Wuh (Wuhan)
  • Zur (Zürich)
Player Titles Dub Doh Ind Mia Mad Rom Can Cin Wuh Bei Boc Cha Ber San Phi Mos Tok Zur Years
United States Serena Williams 23 - - 2 8 2 4 3 2 - 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1999–2016
Switzerland Martina Hingis 17 - - 1 2 - 2 2 - - - - 2 1 - - 1 5 1 1997–2007
Germany Steffi Graf 15 - - 1 3 - - 2 - - - 1 1 5 - 1 - 1 - 1990–1996
Russia Maria Sharapova 14 - 1 2 - 1 3 - 1 - 1 - - - 2 - - 2 1 2005–2015
United States Lindsay Davenport 11 - - 2 - - - - - - - - - - 1 - - 4 4 1997–2005
Belgium Justine Henin 10 - - 1 - - - 2 - - - - 2 3 - - - - 2 2002–2007
Belarus Victoria Azarenka - 2 2 3 - - - 2 - 1 - - - - - - - - 2009–2020
Poland Iga Świątek - 2 2 1 1 3 - - - 1 - - - - - - - - 2021–2024
Spain Conchita Martínez 9 - - - - - 4 - - - - - 2 2 - 1 - - - 1993–2000
United States Monica Seles - - - 2 - 2 4 - - - - - 1 - - - - - 1990–2000
United States Venus Williams 2 - - 3 - 1 - - 1 - - 1 - - - - - 1 1998–2015
Romania Simona Halep 1 1 1 - 2 1 3 - - - - - - - - - - - 2014–2022
Czech Republic Petra Kvitová - 1 - 1 3 - 1 - 2 - - - - - - - 1 - 2011–2023
Belgium Kim Clijsters 7 - - 2 2 - 1 1 1 - - - - - - - - - - 2003–2010
Spain Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 6 - - - 2 - 1 2 - - - - 1 - - - - - - 1992–1996
France Amélie Mauresmo - - - - - 2 2 - - - - - 2 - - - - - 2001–2005
Serbia Jelena Janković - - 1 - - 2 - 1 - - - 1 - - - 1 - - 2007–2010
Denmark Caroline Wozniacki 1 - 1 - - - 1 - - 2 - - - - - - 1 - 2010–2018
Argentina Gabriela Sabatini 5 - - - - - 2 - - - - 1 2 - - - - - - 1991–1992
France Mary Pierce - - - - - 1 - - - - - 1 - 1 - 2 - - 1997–2005
Russia Dinara Safina - - - - 1 1 1 - - - - - 1 - - - 1 - 2008–2009
Poland Agnieszka Radwańska - - - 1 - - 1 - - 2 - - - - - - 1 - 2011–2016
Belarus Aryna Sabalenka - 1 - - 2 - - - 2 - - - - - - - - - 2018–2023
Player Titles Dub Doh Ind Mia Mad Rom Can Cin Wuh Bei Boc Cha Ber San Phi Mos Tok Zur Years
  • Players with 5+ titles. Active players and records are denoted in bold.
  • 73 champions in 294 events as of 2024 Rome.

Added my version above. See current difference between your and my version. Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Fixed sticky rows not working (sticky-Col1 -> sticky-col1). Qwerty284651 (talk) 18:27, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
I prefer the chronological instead of the alphabetic order; it makes it easier to look for the event's name. Qwerty284651 (talk) 18:55, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
I leave that up to you. Though I don't understand what you mean by chronological order. I am not a tennis fan, and so I have no idea of the chronological order of events.
I prefer version 2. Since cell phone users will want to see active events first without having to scroll horizontally.
Also, it is nice to let the years sort too.
I removed any table formatting that did not seem to be needed. Or did not seem to be doing anything. Such as style="margin:o;"
What is that doing? And I think you meant to use a zero, and not the letter "o"
With the flat-list glossary it is not needed since the space between the glossary and table is not large. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
The original order listed was the chronological before you changed it to alphabetic. The column order is the chronological order for the active and defunct events. Which is why I would like to see it in the legend above.
Added margin:0 to omit excess wrapping whitespace.
Agree: current events should be listed first.
Is the year column even necessary or can we do without it? Qwerty284651 (talk) 19:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
You can change the flat-list glossary to chronological order. But alphabetical order is a lot more intuitive. Especially for casual tennis fans who may not know the chronological order of events. I assume that is what you mean by chronological order? And the flat list takes up less vertical space than {{Columns-list}}. That is important for cell phones.
I noticed that you have margin:0 within the table wikitext in your version 2 higher up. I removed it from my version 2. I don't see that it is doing anything at all.
On your version 2, the scrolling window stops prematurely in the horizontal direction. In my version 2 I can read all the columns. That is because I removed class=nowrap from the table.
I like having the year column. So I know what is the time period for each tennis player winning the titles. And I like it being sortable. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
I would leave nowrap and margin:0; I am using desktop version on mobile. It leaves a line of whitespace on my end (desktop version on mobile and regular desktop), which I bypass with margin:0 (without margin:0 vs. with margin:0). I agree with the glossary being in alphabetical order—more intuitive to the casual reader. Qwerty284651 (talk) 20:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Replaced the plain flat-list glossary (• ''' -> * ''') with {{flatlist}}. Qwerty284651 (talk) 20:57, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Please do not edit my version 2 further. It is very confusing.
Edit your version 2 higher up. Then I can make comparisons.
{{flatlist}} is a good idea. I think I had a problem with it before. But now it is working. I will keep it in my version.
I removed margin:0 from my version 2 for comparison purposes.
Will be looking later in browsers on my cell phone.
--Timeshifter (talk) 21:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
In what way confusing? I feel a live update on the same table is faster and more efficient than each editing their own table.
Okay will not add margin:0 until further notice. I remembered sidebars/navboxes use html lists often so I looked into those. The best I could come up was flatlist. Qwerty284651 (talk) 21:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Looking at the table's design and code, I am content with how it turned out, unless you have something else to add. nowrap and margin:0 are minor things and preferential. Qwerty284651 (talk) 21:24, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I am constantly tweaking. So I need to see what effect my changes are having. And I need to compare with your version 2. I can just scroll up and down this talk page to compare the 2. Plus WP:TALK requires not editing others' posts. I rarely do that except when it is something minor that I know they will appreciate. Like changing margin:o to margin:0 in your versions that still needed to be changed.

If margin:0 is of help to you, then I have no problem with you using it in your version 2, and in articles. I am just trying to see for myself what it is doing. Will do some cell phone work later. Same for nowrap. I think it causes problems sometimes on desktop screens. It may help on cell phones in this case.

I am using max-height. So the scrolling table window is less tall:

<div class="scroll-container" style="max-height:70vh;">

--Timeshifter (talk) 21:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I truncated version 1-3 to only display the notable changes and removed the rest (glossary flat-list and table's column headers) for better readibility. Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:36, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
See:
User:Timeshifter/Sandbox255 - not scrolling.
User:Timeshifter/Sandbox256 - scrolling.
Margin:0 helps with the scrolling table. On my desktop monitor there is less space between the top of it and the section header when you push the scroll bar all the way to the top. That is all I have noticed so far. I haven't noticed any difference on my mobile browsers yet. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Exactly what I said. The difference can be noticed on desktop and the desktop mode on mobile browsers but not on mobile mode, because the latter defaults to Minerva skin which omits any stray whitespace. Qwerty284651 (talk) 17:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Continued discussion

I don't know if you noticed my note in my table section: "Note: I removed the table from the show/hide box. Horizontal sticky row headers do not work correctly inside the box in Firefox in Windows 10 Pro. Nor in Safari in my iphone SE 2020."

Look at your table in the show/hide box to see what I mean. I suggest removing the box so that others reading this thread can see that the horizontal row headers are sticky, and work correctly. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I get you. {{cot}}/{{cob}}, Collapse box, as you call it show/hide box, overrides disables overflow, thereby disabling and sticky headers (row and column). Qwerty284651 (talk) 03:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Btw, I propose we rename the tables to version 1 & 2, respectively, because with our names next to them sounds like we one the tables which goes against WP:OWN. We don't own anything on wiki, but rather share it with the rest of the community. You named them thusly to distinguish whose proposed design is but it may rub people the wrong way. Qwerty284651 (talk) 03:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
I am not saying I own the table in the article, and so it doesn't go against WP:OWN. Saying "Timeshifter's table" in the heading just prevents others from editing the table in that section. And it allows me to continue editing it. Since the discussion is in another section it makes it easy. And it makes it simpler for others to follow the discussion. And others can come up with their own table ideas in their own sections if they want to. Or in a sandbox. I left a note to that effect in my table section. Going by table numbers alone could get very confusing.
I added back margin:0 to my table per discussion. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
I agree with your request. It's just that I have been involved in a couple of table redesign discussions where we've gone through several versions and combinations for a result: all edits on 1 table or set of tables. But have it your way.
Imagine 10 editors, each with their own version. You would never reach a consensus that way. Too many cooks in the kitchen. Qwerty284651 (talk) 04:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
I guess I could move my table to a sandbox. Maybe wait to see if more tables show up before consolidating on one here. I think we have the same table except for the height and nowrap. Amount of height is a decision of the article editors. So is nowrap. I prefer not using it, but I can live with it. Right now people can quickly compare our 2 tables on the same page to decide whether they want nowrap or not. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
OK, I have changed my mind after looking at my cell phone again. Keep nowrap. I was torn between its effects on desktop PC screen versus mobile screen. Mobile wins out on this one. I am talking about mobile (not desktop) view on my iphone SE 2020. This iphone has a relatively smaller screen compared to other cell phones. And I use a larger text size. So if nowrap works on it, then it will also work fine on other cell phones. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Update: After additional testing on portrait mobile, I noticed that nowrap obstructs field of view of the table by 70% similar to tall column headers but for rows. (see with nowrap vs. without nowrap). Removed nowrap from my version. Qwerty284651 (talk) 16:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
P.S. I am pretty much done on my end and I am happy with the version. I feel you and I are, sans margin:0, on the same page. I will give the new design a month to marinate until the next event from the list above. And, if noone objects will implement said design in all 4 pages. Qwerty284651 (talk) 16:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

That's funny, I did not even think to look at such a wide table in portrait view on my cell. I just did, and since it is a smaller screen, and because I use a large font, I can only see one and a half data cells in the row. That is with nowrap on. I can see 4 and a half data cells without nowrap on. So nowrap can remain off as far as I am concerned.

Feel free to implement the changes now. Further discussion may make further improvements. But I see no reason to wait to implement these improvements. And we agree on keeping margin:0. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I primarily edit in desktop mode on mobile, so I always use portrait view. I doubt the majority of wiki visitors use landscape mode on mobile. 4 and a half cells is 9x more than half a data cell (on my end, goes from 5 to 8 cells) without nowrap. Qwerty284651 (talk) 21:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
For me it is 3x more without nowrap in mobile mode in portrait view. 1.5 vs 4.5 data cells visible without horizontal scrolling.
You are right about the majority of wiki readers since most will have a larger cell phone than me.
I don't like to indent too many times. Messages end up being very long and narrow, and some occupy only a third of the width of the screen on my phone in portrait view.
I just noticed that {{outdent}} operates differently on my cell versus on desktop PC screen.
{{outdent|::::::}} - The colons are needed on my phone to get the outdent arrow to line up at all in portrait view. Unlike in desktop PC where they are not really needed. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
By the way, I left nowrap in my table so readers can compare our 2 tables in portrait view on cell phones. Your table does not have nowrap. That way readers can see why we both now oppose nowrap. I left a note about it before my table. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
{{od}} does behave differently on mobile vs. on desktop. Still, don't need to outdent every few comments. Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
I have the smaller cell screen. So I think I would know when to do it. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:36, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Event name change discussion

Comment - I'm not really into this whole chart so I have no say in how it's displayed. Whatever works for you two. I do have one complaint about these type of charts in general since you are in the process of fine-tuning this one. In almost all tennis articles we have had a big no-no to listing tournaments as only a city. They are the common tournament name, not a location. Why on earth would we retain the city here when it's being updated? It seems like the events could easily be two letter abbreviations. Indian Wells is the event name so it should be IW or IWO for Indian Wells Open. It should never be Rome since it's the Italian Open that everyone knows. So IT or IO or ITO. No Tokyo it's Pan Pacific Open. PP or PPO. No Beijing... it's the China Open. CO or CHO. And the key should not say the cities either but instead use the name of the event. Pretty much all our charts by consensus make sure we use the tournament name under tournaments. Why is this chart funky? I see Moscow and I have no idea what event that is... Kremlin Cup. Same with Berlin since it's the German Open. And the abbreviations should also link to the proper tournament. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Event short names

1. Bei (Beijing) - CH or CO or CN for China Open

2. Ber (Berlin) - GO or GR or GE for German Open

3. Boc (Boca Raton) - VF or FL for Virginia Slims of Florida

4. Can (Canada) - CO or CN or CA for Canadian Open

5. Cha (Charleston) - CL or CH or CO or CR for Charleston open

6. Chi (Chicago) - a tricky one....VC or AC or CI or CG for Virginia Slims of Chicago/Ameritech Cup

7. Cin (Cincinnati) - CI for Cincinnati Open

8. Doh (Doha) - QO or QA or QT for Qatar Open

9. Dub (Dubai) - DC or DU or DB for Dubai Championships

10. Ind (Indian Wells) - IW for Indian Wells Open

11. Mad (Madrid) - MA or MD for Madrid Open

12. Mia (Miami) - MI for Miami Open

13. Mon (Monte Carlo) - MO or MC for Monte-Carlo Masters

14. Mos (Moscow) - KC for Kremlin Cup

15. Gua (Guadalajara) - GU or GO or GD for Guadalajara

16. Par (Paris) - PA for Paris Masters

17. Phi (Philadelphia) - PH or VP for Virginia Slims of Philadelphia

18. Rom (Rome) - IT for Italian Open

19. San (San Diego) - SD or SC or SO for San Diego Open, Southern California Open

20. Sha (Shanghai) - SH for Shanghai Masters

21. Tok (Tokyo) - PP for Pan Pacific Open

22. Wuh (Wuhan) - WO or WU for Wuhan Open

23. Zur (Zurich) - ZU or ZO for Zurich Open

Note:
Added the missing Chicago and Guadalajara (now defunct) to the list. Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
CH is proposed twice for China Open and Charleston Open. Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Several are proposed twice as I didn't know what was best. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:37, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Any other abbreviations you would like to propose or is that it? Qwerty284651 (talk) 13:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
If not, then let's vote on it. Which abbreviations do you opt for? Qwerty284651 (talk) 01:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Added Monte Carlo, Shanghai and Paris. Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Krmohan, Crows22, Wolbo, and Unnamelessness: to chip in. Which names and abbreviations would you replace them with? Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I am not a tennis fan, so I don't have a clue about the column headers. 2-letter abbreviations would make the table less wide. That is a good thing. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
I too am a proponent of narrow tables. The less horizontal scrolling the better. Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:35, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
So if we do our best to make it two letters I added one set of choices above. And I think it should be Zurich since that is the English usage at wikipedia. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not a big deal but in order I think I'd go with:

I propose the following abbr:
  1. CN
  2. GE
  3. FL
  4. CA
  5. CH
  6. VC
  7. CI
  8. QA
  9. DU
  10. IW
  11. MA
  12. MI
  13. MC
  14. KC
  15. GU
  16. PA
  17. PH
  18. IT
  19. SC
  20. SH
  21. PP
  22. WU
  23. ZU
Qwerty284651 (talk) 14:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Two items I was just looking at. China already has an official country code of CN, so I think more people would be familiar with equating China Open with CN, which leaves CH for Charleston. Likewise the country code for Qatar is QA so I will change my Qatar to QA also. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
I changed mine to CN and CH, respectively. Short names not yet decided upon:
6. VC or AC; 15. GD or GU; 19. SD or SC? Qwerty284651 (talk) 20:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
I'm fine with yours. Only question in looking at it is SC. Not because it doesn't work well with Southern California Open, but that article was recently changed to San Diego Open (tennis). The chart you have here is from 1990 onwards and the San Diego event was only a 1000 level from 2004-2007, and in that time it always had San Diego in the title. In fact from 1990 through today, only in 2013 was it called the Southern California Open. Because of the recent page move to San Diego Open (tennis) which these events will link to, it should probably be at SD or SO. I would personally stick with SD. Otherwise VC and GU are fine. I think I went with GD because some will not know how to spell Guadalajara and GD seemed to roll off the the tongue better for me. I had no clue what to do with the Virginia Slims of Chicago/ Ameritech Cup. I didn't want another "C" issue. VC I think works better now that I think of it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Let's stick with the events' current names and use abbreviations according to those. SD, GD (valid argument about others not knowing how to spell it - even though only contested twice; now defunct), AC...until they change again.
Because we are changing the names events, all 4 stat and record articles are using the event's names by city, I would leave the rest of the articles tables unchanged, maybe add something in lead along the lines of "The following is a list of the events played by sponsor name and city: <and then you list them of in one order or another> WTA German Open (Berlin),...Italian Open (Rome),..Virginia Slims of Florida (Boca Raton), etc." What do you think? Qwerty284651 (talk) 21:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
It's not my first choice, but yes we can also keep it as is. I would only put the sponsor name if we do at the main tournament page, which is almost never unless the sponsor name is the only name it ever had here. Also if you change to two letters, and all they are is the first two letters of a city name, the second letter should not be capitalized. CN sure, two word names like Indian Wells (IW) or San Diego (SD or Sa), but Rome would be Ro, Guadalahara would be GD or Gu. VC but Be. And what do we do with the Qatar Open? put it at Do for Doha? It is a bit strange that these are the only type of charts that do not use the tournament name. I find it confusing but I guess others don't. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
The 34 transcluded charts at WTA 1000 and ATP 1000 from the yearly pages and the 4x records and statistics pages all use the city name instead of the tournament, i.e. sponsorship name. I purposefully added the events' cities to save up on space in the charts — for conciseness, really.
The problem with the main 2 pages is that they contain 34 transcluded charts each. If we, let's say, change the city name to the current tournament's name, this would then require constant updating whenever a tournament changes its name in the future. That's I am hesitant on renaming them...it requires maintenance. With the current city names it's no problem. Even Cincy was once contested in a different city but still only Cincinnati is listed, for consistency and to avoid confusion.
If we use the name of the tournament at the time it was played, it would confuse everyone. So many events went through numerous sponsorship name changes over the years that listing them all for any tournament would be inefficient.
This is why I am fine with listing the full names in the lead of the 2 main and 4 records pages as a compromise. If that is okay with you? Otherwise, I am not getting involved in changing the event names. Plus, even atp/wta refer to them by their city names when listing records (Iga's Madrid-Rome double; Nadal's Canada-Cincinnati double, etc.).
With consensus you might get them to be renamed, but don't count my vote. Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:12, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
As far as the abbreviations is concerned, I have concocted this prototype:
Thoughts? Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Whatever on this one. However those cites initials should each absolutely link to the events so you have the same issue of events name changes. I don't know what the worry is though since every time an event name changes the old name is redirected. And I never said to use the event name at the time it was played with sponsorships. We would use the general common name. The Ameritech Cup is a sponsorship name that we try not to use... but that's really the only name we have for that event. Virginia Slims is also a sponsorship name but it is what it is. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:22, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
So, what do you propose then? We revert to the original version (wta singles (outdated) version below) or replace the current one with the one above, listing only events pertinent to the discipline or keep the glossary/legend as is? I wikilinked the above events.
  • Bei (Beijing)
  • Ber (Berlin)
  • Boc (Boca Raton)
  • Can (Canada)
  • Cha (Charleston)
  • Cin (Cincinnati)
  • Doh (Doha)
  • Dub (Dubai)
  • Ind (Indian Wells)
  • Mad (Madrid)
  • Mia (Miami)
  • Mos (Moscow)
  • Phi (Philadelphia)
  • Rom (Rome)
  • San (San Diego)
  • Tok (Tokyo)
  • Wuh (Wuhan)
  • Zur (Zürich)
Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:46, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
You will certainly never see me advocate for a city name over an event name. If the column header says tournament or championship we would not do that. It is wrong to list a city under a tournament headers. We corrected many charts that did this long ago, like the performance timelines. These were so stewy, and to be honest a lot of original research, that they were ignored I guess. I just thought that if they were being be updated it would be a good time to fix the city names under the tournament header. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Okay, event name it is. I just remembered the 3 defunct masters events: Stuttgart, Stockholm and Hamburg in men's. I assume we just use Eurocard Open, Stockholm Open and Hamburg European Open, respectively, correct? What about abbreviations for them? What do you propose? Qwerty284651 (talk) 11:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Hamburg European Open should be Hamburg Masters. During the time as a 1000 level it was German Open and Hamburg Masters. Then from '09 to '18 it was back to German Open. It's now at Hamburg again. The men's event has never been called the Hamburg European Open. Our article is broken with the Hamburg European Open title and needs some fixing. That's a women's 125 level event. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
And for abbreviations? I suggest something like this: EU or EO for Eurocard Open, ST for Stockholm Open and HA for Hamburg Masters (at the time it was played). Qwerty284651 (talk) 20:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Yeppers. I'd go with EU. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Like so? Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Boy that sure looks great! If we go with VC shouldn't it then be Virginia Slims of Chicago? Otherwise AC for Ameritech Cup. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Fixed. Qwerty284651 (talk) 09:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Here is the final product: Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

ATP Singles
  Active tournaments – Events not played
  Defunct tournaments – Events not won
Player Titles IW MI MC MA IT CA CI SH PA ST EU HA MA Years Strike
Rate
Serbia Novak Djokovic 40 5 6 2 3 6 4 3 4 7 – – – – 2007–2023 9/9
Spain Rafael Nadal 36 3 – 11 4 10 5 1 – – – – 1 1 2005–2021 7/9
Switzerland Roger Federer 28 5 4 – 2 – 2 7 2 1 – – 4 1 2002–2019
United States Andre Agassi 17 1 6 – – 1 3 3 – 2 – – – 1 1990–2004
United Kingdom Andy Murray 14 – 2 – 1 1 3 2 3 1 – – – 1 2008–2016
United States Pete Sampras 11 2 3 – – 1 – 3 – 2 – – – – 1992–2000 5/9
Austria Thomas Muster 8 – 1 3 – 3 – – – – – 1 – – 1990–1997 4/9
United States Michael Chang 7 3 1 – – – 1 2 – – – – – – 1990–1997
Russia Daniil Medvedev 6 – 1 – – 1 1 1 1 1 – – – – 2019–2023 6/9
Germany Alexander Zverev – – – 2 2 1 1 – – – – – – 2017–2024 4/9
Germany Boris Becker 5 – – – – – – – – 1 3 1 – – 1990–1996 2/9
United States Jim Courier 2 1 – – 2 – – – – – – – – 1991–1993 3/9
Chile Marcelo Ríos 1 1 1 – 1 – – – – – – 1 – 1997–1999 5/9
Brazil Gustavo Kuerten – – 2 – 1 – 1 – – – – 1 – 1999–2001 4/9
Russia Marat Safin – – – – – 1 – – 3 – – – 1 2000–2004 3/9
United States Andy Roddick – 2 – – – 1 2 – – – – – – 2003–2010
Spain Carlos Alcaraz 2 1 – 2 – – – – – – – – – 2022–2024 3/9
Sweden Stefan Edberg 4 1 – – – – – 1 – 1 – – 1 – 1990–1992 4/9
Ukraine Andrei Medvedev – – 1 – – – – – – – – 3 – 1994–1997 2/9
Spain Juan Carlos Ferrero – – 2 – 1 – – – – – – – 1 2001–2003 3/9
Player Titles IW MI MC MA IT CA CI SH PA ST EU HA MA Years SR

79 champions in 303 events as of 2024 Rome.

  1. Players with 4+ titles listed. Active players and records are denoted in bold.
  2. Madrid was held as the 8th event between 2002–08 before being replaced by Shanghai in 2009.
  3. Player's best career strike rate of winning the Masters series events.

References

  1. "Ultimate Tennis Statistics – Most Masters Titles". www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com. Archived from the original on 2022-11-01.
ATP Doubles
  Active tournaments   Defunct tournaments
Player Titles IW MI MC MA IT CA CI SH PA ST EU HA Years Strike

Rate

United States Bob Bryan 39 2 6 6 5 4 5 5 1 4 - - 1 2002–2019 9/9
United States Mike Bryan 2 6 6 5 4 5 5 1 4 - - 1 2002–2019
Canada Daniel Nestor 28 4 1 2 5 4 2 5 1 1 - - 3 1996–2015
Australia Todd Woodbridge 18 1 4 2 - - - 4 - 1 3 1 2 1992–2003 7/9
The Bahamas Mark Knowles 17 4 1 - 3 2 2 3 - - - - 2 1993–2009 6/9
Belarus Max Mirnyi 16 - 4 2 1 1 1 2 1 2 - 1 1 2000–2011 8/9
India Mahesh Bhupathi - 1 1 1 2 5 2 - 3 - - 1 1997–2012 7/9
Sweden Jonas Björkman 15 1 2 3 - - 1 3 - 2 - 1 2 1998–2008 8/9
Serbia Nenad Zimonjić - - 5 2 3 2 1 - 1 - - 1 2004–2014 6/9
Australia Mark Woodforde 14 1 4 - - - - 4 - - 3 1 1 1989–2000 5/9
India Leander Paes 13 1 3 1 - 1 2 2 2 1 - - - 1997–2012 8/9
Netherlands Paul Haarhuis 10 - 1 2 - 1 1 - - 3 - 1 1 1993–1998 7/9
Brazil Marcelo Melo 9 - 1 - 1 - 1 1 3 2 - - - 2013–2018 6/9
Netherlands Jacco Eltingh 8 - 1 2 - 1 - - - 3 - 1 - 1993–1998 5/9
Croatia Nikola Mektić 2 1 2 1 2 - - - - - - - 2018–2024
Spain Marcel Granollers - - - 1 3 1 1 1 1 - - - 2012–2024 6/9
Russia Yevgeny Kafelnikov 7 2 - 1 - 2 1 - - - - - 1 1994–2003 5/9
France Pierre-Hugues Herbert 1 1 1 - 1 1 1 - 1 - - - 2016–2019 7/9
France Nicolas Mahut 1 1 1 - 1 1 1 - 1 - - - 2016–2019
Argentina Horacio Zeballos 1 - - 1 2 1 1 1 - - - - 2019–2024 6/9
South Africa Wayne Ferreira 6 2 1 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1 1991–2003 5/9
Croatia Ivan Dodig - - 1 - - 1 2 1 1 - - - 2013–2023
India Rohan Bopanna 1 1 1 1 - - - - 2 - - - 2011–2024 5/9
Player Titles IW MI MC MA IT CA CI SH PA ST EU HA Years SR
  • Players with 6+ titles. Active players and tournament records indicated in bold.
  • 171 champions in 303 events as of 2024 Rome.
  • Masters' time slots indicated with 1st–9th column names.
WTA Singles
  Active tournaments   Defunct tournaments
Player Titles DU QA IW MI MA IT CA CI WU CN FL CH GE SD PH KC PP ZU Years
United States Serena Williams 23 - - 2 8 2 4 3 2 - 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1999–2016
Switzerland Martina Hingis 17 - - 1 2 - 2 2 - - - - 2 1 - - 1 5 1 1997–2007
Germany Steffi Graf 15 - - 1 3 - - 2 - - - 1 1 5 - 1 - 1 - 1990–1996
Russia Maria Sharapova 14 - 1 2 - 1 3 - 1 - 1 - - - 2 - - 2 1 2005–2015
United States Lindsay Davenport 11 - - 2 - - - - - - - - - - 1 - - 4 4 1997–2005
Belgium Justine Henin 10 - - 1 - - - 2 - - - - 2 3 - - - - 2 2002–2007
Belarus Victoria Azarenka - 2 2 3 - - - 2 - 1 - - - - - - - - 2009–2020
Poland Iga Świątek - 2 2 1 1 3 - - - 1 - - - - - - - - 2021–2024
Spain Conchita Martínez 9 - - - - - 4 - - - - - 2 2 - 1 - - - 1993–2000
United States Monica Seles - - - 2 - 2 4 - - - - - 1 - - - - - 1990–2000
United States Venus Williams 2 - - 3 - 1 - - 1 - - 1 - - - - - 1 1998–2015
Romania Simona Halep 1 1 1 - 2 1 3 - - - - - - - - - - - 2014–2022
Czech Republic Petra Kvitová - 1 - 1 3 - 1 - 2 - - - - - - - 1 - 2011–2023
Belgium Kim Clijsters 7 - - 2 2 - 1 1 1 - - - - - - - - - - 2003–2010
Spain Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 6 - - - 2 - 1 2 - - - - 1 - - - - - - 1992–1996
France Amélie Mauresmo - - - - - 2 2 - - - - - 2 - - - - - 2001–2005
Serbia Jelena Janković - - 1 - - 2 - 1 - - - 1 - - - 1 - - 2007–2010
Denmark Caroline Wozniacki 1 - 1 - - - 1 - - 2 - - - - - - 1 - 2010–2018
Argentina Gabriela Sabatini 5 - - - - - 2 - - - - 1 2 - - - - - - 1991–1992
France Mary Pierce - - - - - 1 - - - - - 1 - 1 - 2 - - 1997–2005
Russia Dinara Safina - - - - 1 1 1 - - - - - 1 - - - 1 - 2008–2009
Poland Agnieszka Radwańska - - - 1 - - 1 - - 2 - - - - - - 1 - 2011–2016
Belarus Aryna Sabalenka - 1 - - 2 - - - 2 - - - - - - - - - 2018–2023
Player Titles DU QA IW MI MA IT CA CI WU CN FL CH GE SD PH KC PP ZU Years
  • Players with 5+ titles. Active players and records are denoted in bold.
  • 73 champions in 294 events as of 2024 Rome.
WTA Doubles
  Active tournaments   Defunct tournaments
Player Titles DU QA IW MI MA IT CA CI WU CN VC FL CH GE SD PH KC PP GD ZU Years
Switzerland Martina Hingis 26 - - 3 4 1 3 2 1 3 2 - - 1 - - - 1 2 - 3 1996–2017
United States Lisa Raymond 24 - 1 5 3 - 1 - 1 - - - - 3 1 - - 2 5 - 2 1999–2012
Belarus Natasha Zvereva 23 - - 2 2 - 2 1 - - - - 2 3 4 - 1 2 4 - - 1991–1999
Australia Rennae Stubbs 19 - 1 1 1 - 1 1 - - - - - 2 - 2 - 1 4 - 5 1992–2008
Zimbabwe Cara Black 17 1 - - - 1 2 1 1 - 1 - - - 1 3 - 1 2 - 3 2001–2013
Spain Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 16 - - - 5 - 2 2 - - - - - 4 1 - - 1 - - 1 1990–2001
Czechoslovakia Jana Novotná 14 - - - 6 - 1 3 - - - - - 2 2 - - - - - - 1992–1999
United States Liezel Huber 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 - - - - - 1 1 - 1 1 - - 2003–2012
Chinese Taipei Hsieh Su-wei 13 1 2 4 - 1 3 - 1 - 1 - - - - - - - - - - 2009–2024
Spain Virginia Ruano Pascual 11 - - 2 - - 2 1 - - - - - 4 1 1 - - - - - 1998–2005
Latvia Larisa Neiland 10 - - - 2 - - 3 - - - - 2 - 3 - - - - - - 1991–1996
Australia Samantha Stosur - - 2 2 - - - 1 - - - - 1 1 - - 1 2 - - 2005–2021
Spain Gigi Fernández 9 - - - 1 - 2 - - - - - - 1 2 - 1 - 2 - - 1993–1996
United States Lindsay Davenport - - 4 - - - - - - - - - - 2 - - - 2 - 1 1997–2003
Argentina Paola Suárez - - 2 - - 2 1 - - - - - 3 1 - - - - - - 1998–2005
United States Martina Navratilova - - - - - 1 3 - - - 1 - 1 - - - - 1 - 2 1990–2006
Japan Ai Sugiyama - - 1 2 - 1 2 - - - - - 1 - - - 1 - - 1 2000–2008
Russia Nadia Petrova - - - 3 - 1 1 - - - - - - 1 - - 2 1 - - 2003–2013
Slovenia Katarina Srebotnik - - 1 2 - 1 2 - - 1 - - 1 - - - 1 - - - 2007–2014
India Sania Mirza - - 2 1 - 1 - 1 1 2 - - - - - - - 1 - - 2011–2016
Chinese Taipei Latisha Chan - 1 1 - 1 2 - 2 1 1 - - - - - - - - - - 2008–2017
China Peng Shuai 8 - 1 1 - - 3 - 1 - 2 - - - - - - - - - - 2009–2014
Russia Elena Vesnina 1 - 3 - 1 - 2 - - 1 - - - - - - - - - - 2008–2018
Czech Republic Barbora Strýcová 1 1 1 - 1 1 - 1 - 1 - - - - - - - 1 - - 2010–2020
Russia Ekaterina Makarova 7 1 - 1 - 1 - 2 1 - 1 - - - - - - - - - - 2012–2018
Czech Republic Květa Peschke - 1 1 - - 1 - 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1 - - 1 2006–2020
Belgium Elise Mertens - - 3 1 - 1 - - 1 - - - - - - - - - 1 - 2018–2024
United States Bethanie Mattek-Sands - - 1 2 - - 1 - 1 2 - - - - - - - - - - 2015–2024
Italy Sara Errani 6 - 1 - - 2 2 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2012–2024
Player Titles DU QA IW MI MA IT CA CI WU CN VC FL CH GE SD PH KC PP GD ZU Years
  • Players with 6+ titles. Active players and records are denoted in bold.
  • 154 champions in 294 events as of 2024 Rome.

Continued discussion 2

Pinging @Timeshifter and Jroberson108: who sparked the idea for improvements.

In light of recent events the above tables, namely, the 2nd one: WTA 1000 Series singles records and statistics#Title leaders

  Active tournaments   Defunct tournaments

*  Active players and most titles won per tournament are denoted in bold.
Title leaders
Titles Player Active tournaments Defunct tournaments Years
DU QA IW MI MA IT CA CI WU CN FL CH GE SD PH KC PP ZU
23 Serena Williams - - 2 8 2 4 3 2 - 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1999–2016
17 Martina Hingis - - 1 2 - 2 2 - - - - 2 1 - - 1 5 1 1997–2007
15 Steffi Graf - - 1 3 - - 2 - - - 1 1 5 - 1 - 1 - 1990–1996
14 Maria Sharapova - 1 2 - 1 3 - 1 - 1 - - - 2 - - 2 1 2005–2015
11 Lindsay Davenport - - 2 - - - - - - - - - - 1 - - 4 4 1997–2005
10 Justine Henin - - 1 - - - 2 - - - - 2 3 - - - - 2 2002–2007
Victoria Azarenka * - 2 2 3 - - - 2 - 1 - - - - - - - - 2009–2020
Iga Świątek * - 2 2 1 1 3 - - - 1 - - - - - - - - 2021–2024
9 Conchita Martínez - - - - - 4 - - - - - 2 2 - 1 - - - 1993–2000
Monica Seles - - - 2 - 2 4 - - - - - 1 - - - - - 1990–2000
Venus Williams * 2 - - 3 - 1 - - 1 - - 1 - - - - - 1 1998–2015
Simona Halep * 1 1 1 - 2 1 3 - - - - - - - - - - - 2014–2022
Petra Kvitová * - 1 - 1 3 - 1 - 2 - - - - - - - 1 - 2011–2023
7 Kim Clijsters - - 2 2 - 1 1 1 - - - - - - - - - - 2003–2010
Aryna Sabalenka * - 1 - - 2 - - 1 3 - - - - - - - - - 2018–2024
6 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario - - - 2 - 1 2 - - - - 1 - - - - - - 1992–1996
Amélie Mauresmo - - - - - 2 2 - - - - - 2 - - - - - 2001–2005
Jelena Janković - - 1 - - 2 - 1 - - - 1 - - - 1 - - 2007–2010
Caroline Wozniacki * 1 - 1 - - - 1 - - 2 - - - - - - 1 - 2010–2018
5 Gabriela Sabatini - - - - - 2 - - - - 1 2 - - - - - - 1991–1992
Mary Pierce - - - - - 1 - - - - - 1 - 1 - 2 - - 1997–2005
Dinara Safina - - - - 1 1 1 - - - - - 1 - - - 1 - 2008–2009
Agnieszka Radwańska - - - 1 - - 1 - - 2 - - - - - - 1 - 2011–2016

is going through a makeover and we cannot decide on what colors to use to distinguish between "Active" and "defunct tournaments" in the table's column headers. We are trying to make the table more accessible per MOS:COLOR and mobile user-friendly.

You are welcome to contribute. Qwerty284651 (talk) 01:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

After some consultation at Template talk:Sticky table start#Table design discussion for a more mobile and screen reader user-friendly design of the above table, I am proposing new designs below for additional feedback from the tennis community.
The design focus is on table's header, currently located at WTA 1000 Series singles records and statistics#Title leaders, which I am later planning on implementing to the other 1000 records-related pages:
once consensus is reached.

With color scheme 1

  Active tournaments   Defunct tournaments
*  Active players and most titles won per tournament are denoted in bold.
Title leaders
Titles Player Active tournaments Defunct tournaments Years
DU QA IW MI MA IT CA CI WU CN FL CH GE SD PH KC PP ZU
23 Serena Williams - - 2* 8* 2 4* 3 2* - 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1999–2016
OR

With color scheme 2

  Active tournaments   Defunct tournaments
*  Active players and most titles won per tournament are denoted in bold.
Title leaders
Titles Player Active tournaments Defunct tournaments Years
DU QA IW MI MA IT CA CI WU CN FL CH GE SD PH KC PP ZU
23 Serena Williams - - 2* 8* 2 4* 3 2* - 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1999–2016
OR

Without color scheme

*  Active players and most titles won per tournament are denoted in bold.
Title leaders
Titles Player Active tournaments Defunct tournaments Years
DU QA IW MI MA IT CA CI WU CN FL CH GE SD PH KC PP ZU
23 Serena Williams - - 2* 8* 2 4* 3 2* - 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1999–2016
I have come up with the following designs: Leaning towards the 3rd option. Thoughts? Qwerty284651 (talk) 15:19, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Have you considered using Template:Vertical header for the tournament names? This would eliminate the need for Template:Abbr, which is not compatible with mobile browsing, and the legend for the abbreviations (it's not clear to me whether that is still a part of the proposal or not).
The player name should be row header, not the number of titles, because the data in each row relates to the player, not the number of titles. In the case of ties, you would also have rows without headers.
Would active players not be distinguished by an open range in the years column (e.g. "1992–")? If so, it would be redundant to bold active player names. When player names are the row headers, they will be bolded anyway, so this avoids a conflict. Otherwise, perhaps use an explanatory footnote or italic typeface?
I think bolding the highest number in each column is fairly self-evident and wouldn't need to be explained in a legend. I also think we can ditch the underlining and asterisk as redundant.
I prefer the third design, without color. With the column groups, the color is redundant.
Title leaders
Titles Player Active tournaments Defunct tournaments Years
Dubai Championship Qatar Open Indian Wells Open Miami Open Madrid Open Italian Open Canadian Open Cincinnati Open Wuhan Open China Open Virginia Slims of Florida Charleston Open German Open San Diego Open Virginia Slims of Philadelphia Kremlin Cup Pan Pacific Open Zurich Open
23 Serena Williams - - 2 8 2 4 3 2 - 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1999–2016
--Bsherr (talk) 19:57, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
{{vertical header}} would impede the view on mobile due to the egregiously tall sticky column headers are used which would nullify the effect of the stickiness rendering vertical scrolling useless. Qwerty284651 (talk) 21:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Using some simple abbreviations would shorten the height of the headers.
Title leaders
Titles Player Active tournaments Defunct tournaments Years
Dubai Champ'shp Qatar Open Indian Wells Open Miami Open Madrid Open Italian Open Canadian Open Cincinnati Open Wuhan Open China Open Va. Slims of Fla. Charleston Open German Open San Diego Open Va. Slims of Phila. Kremlin Cup Pan Pacific Open Zurich Open
23 Serena Williams - - 2 8 2 4 3 2 - 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1999–2016
--Bsherr (talk) 22:39, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Turning the text sideways hurts my eyes... it is very difficult to read that way. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:46, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
843 other articles currently use vertical headers in their tables. --Bsherr (talk) 22:55, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
843 strained necks and sore eyes for our readers... great. Luckily we can afford to be kinder to our readers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Also, I think the differentiated border between the active and defunct tournaments is redundant with the column groups and therefore unneeded. However, if you do keep it, you should probably extend it up a row to the border between the column groups. I also think you should use weight instead of color to differentiate. When you set the default color as black, it is black even when the user has dark mode set, rather than the default border color, and it actually minimizes, rather than emphasizes, the separation. --Bsherr (talk) 22:55, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
@Bsherr, the chart already has a key for the events' abbreviations (see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Tennis#Continued discussion 2). Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
So retaining the legend, this would be my suggestion:
Title leaders
Titles Player Active tournaments Defunct tournaments Years
DU QA IW MI MA IT CA CI WU CN FL CH GE SD PH KC PP ZU
23 Serena Williams — — 2 8 2 4 3 2 — 1 — 1 — — — — — — 1999–2016
Grey is the default color for {{n/a}}, but that can be changed if it's important. --Bsherr (talk) 03:34, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Looking closer, it looks like the chart is mistakenly using a hyphen for a null cell when an em-dash would be the correct symbol. You should consider using Template:N/a instead. --Bsherr (talk) 03:26, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- over — makes for a cleaner look. N/a just adds darkened cells which I really don't like and prefer the chart looked as simple as possible, color-wise. The above choice is pretty much option 3 above and symbols are needed per MOS:NOSYMBOLS when emphasizing text. Qwerty284651 (talk) 09:36, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
On this I will only say that we would never use hypens (-)... either ndash (–) or mdash (—). I usually prefer ndash but it's no matter. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:15, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Template:5-set tennis

Moved to Template talk:5-set tennis § Borders missing in latest update

Heavy discussion on Career Grand Slam tables that needs more eyes

We are having a dickens of a time trying to come together on a Career Grand Slam chart for List of Grand Slam and related tennis records. There only three of us but I admit that the other two have spent much more quality time on it than I have. I just have some big issues on sorting and using keys when it comes to our readers than my fellow editors do. Input here or there would be much appreciated. The whole topic is at Talk:List of Grand Slam_and related tennis records#Career Grand Slam table but a lot of the recent conversation is at Talk:List of Grand Slam_and related tennis records#Continued discussion 5. Thanks all. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:27, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion has reached a conclusion. The final version is now live. Qwerty284651 (talk) 10:41, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Laver Cup

Can the Laver Cup be considered an exhibition tournament? If not, why not?

It has the contradiction of having been added to the ATP circuit in 2019, but it is not an event that provides ranking points. Rafaelfdc (talk) 05:20, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

It's one of those iffy things. It's sort of like the Next Gen ATP Finals.... in limbo... more than exhibition though still wimpy. But no ranking points for Olympics either and it's not exhibition. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:28, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Example of one reason why Misplaced Pages increasingly loses respect

This project is the quintessential example of why Misplaced Pages is increasingly losing respect. It seems unless you are a member of this Tennis Project clique, your work on tennis pages will immediately be altered or removed. There are dozens, if not more, tennis articles about obscure players with few or no citations. There are many noteworthy BLP articles filled with unsourced content and over the top stats like "Joe Bloggs won his third match at this tournament in 10 appearances" or nonsense like "Joe Bloggs made his Major debut at this Major and won his first match at a Major"...well if it's his debut and he wins a match of course it's his first win. It doesn't need saying! There is one particular editor (Sashona) in your project who puts so much tiny stat related detail in and either doesn't cite it or uses random Twitter accounts to back it up. They, and a few others, act as if the tennis pages on here are their own personal property, pouncing on every edit made outside their clique and changing it no matter how well cited it may be. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be a 💕 for the world, edited in good faith by anyone, with everything appropriately sourced. Unfortunately when it comes to tennis pages, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia for the few, edited by a clique, packed full of unsourced trivia and clogged up by biographies of players who never made the top 300 or played a significant match in their entire careers. Oh, and one last thing, Misplaced Pages is a worldwide encyclopedia so insisting everything be written in a certain way because "that's what we say in the US" is ridiculous. Wimbledon, French Open, US Open and Australian Open are in fact Grand Slam tournaments no matter how often Americans call them Majors and titleist is at best nonsense and at worst not even a word! I could give more examples but none of you Tennis Project clique members give too hoots so I will stop there. I got this off my chest and if it gets deleted immediately I don't care. Also if you want to hurl abuse at me on my talk page or in reply to this then enjoy. Shrug02 (talk) 08:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to reverse the decision to blanket remove this from the talk page. While I agree some of what's written might fall into WP:CIVIL. In your edit summary Fyunck, you said on removal that "some of what was written is true." It might be worth elaborating on your thoughts rather than removal, if it leads to the health of the information on Misplaced Pages then it merits a discussion. YellowStahh (talk) 21:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Some of this is true, but most is total baloney by an editor guilty of the same things he is ranting against and perhaps some ignorance in the world of tennis. Looking at them, many of his edits are just fine. Some have been unsourced pov or against Misplaced Pages standards. But he got it off his chest so that's a good thing. I looked at the post as grandstanding without an actual question, and I removed it, but another editor brought it back for comment.
  • "This project is the quintessential example of why Misplaced Pages is increasingly losing respect." - A load of crap with this. All you need to do is look at any political article and see where the respect is draining away.
  • "It seems unless you are a member of this Tennis Project clique, your work on tennis pages will immediately be altered or removed." - More baloney. Some editors do that to be sure but not most, and not some clique.
  • "There are dozens, if not more, tennis articles about obscure players with few or no citations. There are many noteworthy BLP articles filled with unsourced content and over the top stats." - No question this is true. I think we already knew this but many of our articles could be trimmed by 50%-75%.
  • "There is one particular editor (Sashona) in your project who puts so much tiny stat related detail in and either doesn't cite it or uses random Twitter accounts to back it up." - Some things are true and hard to argue with. That editor is a problem for me too. If it's not over-detail it's too lengthy of section headers that hammer the tables of contents for browsers or his refusal to obey wikipedia rules on capitalization.
  • "when it comes to tennis pages, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia for the few, edited by a clique, packed full of unsourced trivia and clogged up by biographies of players who never made the top 300 or played a significant match in their entire careers." - Partial truth here. It is packed full of trivia, and I wish it were not. But it's not edited by a clique. There are actually not all that many tennis editors so it may appear so. But in those few editors they disagree among themselves all the time... there is no clique.
  • The rest I'll attribute to ignorance of tennis.
So you got your response. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click) Show me where I've used unsourced pov content? Shrug02 (talk) 22:27, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
As for not meeting Misplaced Pages standards. You told me in August not to use scoring in prose unless it's a record and I haven't done since. If welcome further examples so I can seek to improve. @Fyunck(click) Shrug02 (talk) 22:42, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click) As for "ignorance of tennis" you know nothing about me and just because you write about tennis on Misplaced Pages doesn't make you an expert. I'm an informed, long time tennis fan and former low level player. I do the best I can and I learn from constructive advice such as detailed above but I'm certainly not ignorant and I resent the remark and ask you to retract it. Shrug02 (talk) 22:46, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
You know something.... the pov edit was attributed to another editor. I was wrong on that. Sorry. I originally said "perhaps some ignorance." I had no idea your tennis background but the last part on tennis majors is simply wrong and I attribute ignorance (lack of knowledge on that matter.) There can be other reasons why you are wrong that I don't know about, but lack of knowledge on the terminology seemed to me the best reason at the time. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:25, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
And agreeing with @Shrug02:, editor Sashona continues to add long section headers that make table of contents too wide. Silly items like "top 60" to Renata Zarazúa or not adhering to the absolute biggest item of the period (like winning an event) and instead adding 3rd round or making their first appearance. This is an encyclopedia and them adding the trivia is a detraction. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Unreferenced tennis competition articles

Hello WP Tennis! I am a volunteer with WikiProject Unreferenced articles; we are in the midst of our November 2024 backlog drive and a few editors recently went through and tagged few hundred articles are unreferenced. Most of these are part of the ATP Challenger Tour and I'm having some trouble finding citations for them. Would you have any suggestions for perennial sources? Sports is not my metier and I don't want to make a bunch of edits that are obviously detrimental to the project overall and frustrating to WP Tennis editors. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Best, Kazamzam (talk) 19:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

All the ATP Challenger Tour events are listed at , basic information about the tournament, along with the draw and tournament results can be cited to the appropriate pages. More detailed information may be tougher to cite as challenger tournaments vary hugely in how much coverage they receive. Iffy★Chat -- 19:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
@Iffy - much obliged! And the ATP site is considered a reliable source by WP Tennis? Just making sure I'm not about to get reverted 10,000 times for my trouble. Thanks for the speedy response. Kazamzam (talk) 17:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Yes, the ATP is a generally reliable source for the existence of tournaments held on their tours and for the results of those tournaments; though as the ATP is also the organiser of those tournaments, their website would be considered a WP:PRIMARY source, so ideally other sources would also be included to flesh out the articles. Iffy★Chat -- 17:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
@Iffy - excellent, thank you for the help. Kazamzam (talk) 13:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Categories: