Talk:Erzurum: Difference between revisions

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			{{Contentious topics/talk notice\|aa2}}

			== Armenian name should be included as an alternative native name ==
	==Unrelated template==
	Please dont put any irrelevant template.This is a nationalist approach and can bring some distruptive edits on Armenian cities(Which they were ruled by Ottoman Empire till to 1920's).No need like war-edits in wiki.
	Regards.
	<font face="Brush Script MT" color="red" size="4">]</font>] 10:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
	:That is why smilar many Templates deleted from Greece, Erivan etc(some deleted by me). Please dont begin nationalist edit-rv war among users.<font face="Brush Script MT" color="red" size="4">]</font>] 20:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Adding it doesn't mean a claim to it, it just means that Armenian editors are contributing as well since it has a significant historic past to Armenia. <tt class="plainlinks">]]</tt> 20:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

			Providing alternative names to geographical locations is supported per ]. In this case, the Armenian name Կարին (Garin), should be added to the article since, as the article states, the area was heavily populated by Armenians throughout much of its history. See General Guidelines section in ]: "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted." According to this principal, we should place the Armenian name of the city or of any other minority living in Erzurum that has produced a significant presence. See ] or ] as examples. ] (]) 08:29, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
	==External links==
	I deleted the link: * because the video is no longer available. ] 21:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

			:Can you tell me, there is a strong reason to Armenian name stay there? Expect that Armenian name, currently, there are four name in section of Name and etymology. Ottoman Turkish, Latin, Kurdish, Greek! Why, only the Armenian name? This is a clear example of your violate of ]. The Armenian population is not in question in the city and previous name was not Armenian anyway in the Ottoman Empire! Example of ]: Four countries are basin, it's a very natural. Can you explain ], ], ], ]...Thousands of Turks living there. Armenian name should stay Name and etymology! Next edit war, this issue, along with other Turkish cities will go to the ]! ] (]) 11:54, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
	== blockquotes ==
	I did not remove any information, I just removed those unnecessary, lenghty, POV blockquotes. I don't see why we should keep them. ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 14:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

			::I never added the Armenian name and if other minorities do lived or presently live in Erzurum, I would gladly put it along side the Armenian name. I also don't mind if ], ], ], ] has a Turkish name in the lead but this is not the topic of discussion we should be having here on this talk page. If you feel we need to add Turkish names, please refer to their talk pages. ] (]) 19:53, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
	:Fair enough, I don't like blockquotes either. What was the reason to remove the info about the deportation route? --] 16:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
	::What info? If it is removed, then it is a mistake, sorry if that is the case. ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 16:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

			Kmoksy removed the Armenian name from the lead three times. The user claims "Armenian name is not current". And as noted by EtienneDolet, the ] states:
	:If the "history" section of this entry actually lived up to its name, then those quotes would be considered overly-long and probably superfluous to the entry. However there is almost nothing of the substantial history of Erzurum in this entry, and until there is more content I think the quotes should remain because they neatly sum-up events in Erzurum at the end of the 19th century. PS - by mistake, I made the change (re-inserting the quotes) before logging in. ] 21:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
			{{Cquote\|Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language '''or''' {{underline\|is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted.}} }}
	:BTW, much of the history content that is currently contained in the entry for Erzurum region would appear to be more appropriate for this entry. Thoughts? ] 21:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
	::We cannot include things for the sake of including them. The history section is not that short, what this article is lacking is other stuff (besides if it is short we should be more selective when adding things, and add them ]) . This city is a modern city, people live in this city, many things can be added. But our blockquotes don't seem to add anything useful. They are just unencyclopedic POV things imposing ideas on the reader (this might be the weasel thing you were mentioning on Ataturk). No reason for them to stay. Also some stuff in the history section should not be there (I moved them into new sections). ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 20:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
	:::OK, I will not re-insert the quotes. Following you reasoning, I have removed the sentence on Nene Hatum. As written, it was unenyclopaedic POV, and there already is a link about her in the notable natives section. Regarding the length of thehistoy section, Erzurum's history is at least 2000 years, we have a couple of lines covering a few incidents in recent centuries. Do you really think that is not too short?? ] 19:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
	It is short, not too short, the article in general is short, that does not mean we should go ahead and add those blockquotes. Nene Hatun thing can be rephrased and readded, as it was actually giving additional info about a war, but it should be rephrased like I said. Women taking on arms against a strong foe, and defeating that foe, might be quite notable. Also, I checked Mama Hatun, and I think now that it might be useful to add that Erzurum was capital of Saltuklu's, also we might add other historical states, whose capital lies in today's Erzurum, the city. ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 23:19, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

			I invite him to the talk page to discuss the issue. I'd like to hear his arguments. --] ] 18:22, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
	:The Nene Hatun thing wasn't giving additional information about that war, because there was no information at all about that war in the history section! That is why I removed it. The entry needs much more basic information about the history of Erzurum on the page before inserting tiny details that are already fully covered in another entry. Regarding your feeling that the history information pertaining to Erzurum city should remain on the Erzurum region page. Erzurum region once included all of present-day Kars, Ardahan, and Artvin regions. Presumably you are not arguing that all the pre-19th century history of those places should be moved to Erzurum region! ] 19:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
	::I am not aware of "according to" being weasel, it might in fact be the opposite. Anyway, Balakian should stay there, being a controversial figure. ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 01:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
	:::They are clearly weasel words. Is every citation in Misplaced Pages also accompanied by the phrase "according to"? The source of the information is already properly cited, indicating that the source of the info is Balakian (who sourced it directly from newspaper reports of that period). ] 03:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
	::::Controversial ones, yes, or should be. Otherwise no problem with it. I don't see anything weasel there. ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 10:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
	::::Also, I only see a map there, no newspaper refs. There is a reference to "investigative journalist" Fisk though. Let's not ] him, but I am not sure he has an access to a map, need to see his book. If the real reference is him, then we should indicate so, no need for intermediaries. Also I don't understand why we find this book reliable, it is a literary piece by a poet, 'literary liberties' might be taken, and we don't have place for them, especially for these subjects. It is like making a witness out of an actor. ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 11:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
	:::::Deniz, you wanted the newspaper quotes removed, so they were! There is nothing controversial in the reference, It may be "controversial" in Turkey (where you may get imprisoned, or worse, if you say anything against official "history") but it is not controversial in the real world.] 05:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
	::::::Blah blah blah. No one is imprisoned for "saying anything against the official 'history'" in Turkey (there is no such law). maybe in your country it is, I don't know. The poet is controversial, in my opinion. It wouldn't necessarily be controversial, if he was talking about literary life in Erzurum. I don't see anything wrong with the addition of "according to Balakian", we even have "according to X" with historians. ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 05:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
	::Your addition is clearly weasel. As I explained earlier, the source of the information is already properly cited to Misplaced Pages standards, with that citation indicating that the source is a book by Balakian. If it will help you, maybe I will add more information to that section: the book "Armenian Karin/Erzurum" has a chapter on the 1915-1918 period. ] 01:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

			The city a Turkish city, not Armenian city.--] (]) 18:26, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
	== misinformation ==

			:Please read the guidelines. It clearly states that the name used by "a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted" to be used in the lead. Erzurum had a significant Armenian population until 1915 (the last Armenians left in early 1918). Numerous 17-19th century sources call it the "capital of Turkish Armenia", including English historian ].paragraphy 6 "Arzeroum, the modern capital of Turkish Armenia"
	"Erzeroum (Armenian: Կարին (Karin), see also its former and other names) is a city in Western Armenia."
			:And after all, the ] of this article talks about its Armenian population. The Armenian name is clearly relevant. --] ] 18:34, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

			::So we should add Urartu, Azeri, Georgian, ... names also? Because those peoples lived also in Erzurum. ] (]) 15:30, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
	I think this is a very cool example of misinformation & pov. keep doing it ;) <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

			:::Just because Chinese people live in Vancouver should not mean we must add Chinese as an alternative language. As far as I'm concerned, Erzurum/Garin played an intrinsic role in the development of arts, literature, and culture for the Armenian people for centuries, especially during the medieval period. If you can somehow prove that Georgians and Azeris had such a significant presence in this town for centuries, by all means place them there. However, that'll be quite a difficult task since we had this same discussion at the Kars article and it proved to be negative. If there's barely any proof for Georgian and Azeri presence in Kars, I highly doubt that would be the case in Erzurum. ] (]) 00:27, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
	Please, upload a pic of your favorite dream map. Do western armenia includes new york too? <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 01:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

			::::Anyway we should add the Azerbaijani or Ottoman name (Revan/Erivan) into Yerevan article because, the city had before 50% Azeri population before? ] (]) 10:03, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
	Erzurum was known as the capital of Turkish Armenia during the 19th century. If "Western Armenia" is considered to equate to "Turkish Armenia" then the epithet is correct, but it would be better to use "Turkish Armenia".

			You don't seem to grasp the point EtienneDolet is driving at. The point isn't whether or not Yerevan had a significant Azerbaijani population or not - it's their relation to that city. Erzurum's original name was Karin/Garin, a name that was used, as far as we can tell, for close to two millennia by their original inhabitants, the Armenians. --] (]) 15:46, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
	BTW, "Erzurum International Airport"?? What international flights depart from Erzurum? I know of none. ] 19:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
			:Therefore I said: See the name and etymology section, you can see the Armenian name here. Erzurum has not Armenian population now, nor Kurdish, so you can't add Armenian language. What if we add Arabic/Turkish/Azeri name into Yerevan article? Because Yerevan word comes from Arabic: ''Revan'', so ''to walk''. ] (]) 17:36, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
			::You really need to (re)read ]. It concerns not only those living there currently, but those who lived there in the past as well. See: '''Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted.''' Garin falls in both criteria. As for your argument to use the Azerbaijani name for Yerevan: that has long been debated and there's a long standing consensus to not have the Azerbaijani name for Yerevan and not have the Armenian name for Baku, since both populations have contributed greatly to both of their respective cities. And Yerevan doesn't come from the Arabic. That's ] theory, and it's the first time I've ever heard that. Yerevan comes from Erepuni, its old Urartian name. -''puni'' was supplemented by -''van'' meaning town or city. Other cities, such as ] (in Turkey), ] (in Azeribaijan), ], ], ], ] (all in Armenia), etc. etc. all have these stems. There's also another theory that claims Yerevan was named after ], an ancient Armenian king of the Yervandian dynasty. This is corroborated with the establishment of ]. This all happened long before the arrival of the Arabs. ] (]) 21:22, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
			::Still no answer. ] (]) 11:50, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

			Erzurum was inhabited by Armenians for millenia. The Azeri name of Yerevan is simply a different spelling of the original Armenian name. Karin is the Armenian name of the city used for many centuries before Turkic influx to the region. --] ] 12:59, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
	"''Erzurum was known as the capital of Turkish Armenia during the 19th century.''" <br />..but we are in the 21.century. right?<br />I think "it's better" to use "]", which is current.] 20:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)<br />
			:Karin / Garin should be there because it is a fully alternative name for the city - it has no linguistic connection to the name "Erzurum", so comparisons with the various variations of the name Yerevan, (Erivan, Irvan, Revan, etc.) are false comparisons. The argument that it is not a current "official" name is equally invalid - alternative names can be (and in fact most often are) unofficial or historical ones. The name Karin is still in active use in academic literature that deals with the history of the settlement (for example, we have the 2003 book titled "Armenian Karin/Erzurum" by Richard G. Hovhannisian (ed.)) and I think (though can't provide a source for this) that the name Karin is still widely used by Armenians when they refer to Erzurum. However, my feeling is that Karin should not have the Armenian transliteration before it, but after it. ] (]) 15:09, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
	It's official name is : ] ] 21:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

			== Lowest recorded temperature ==

			At the climate section, it is stated "The lowest recorded temperature is −37.2 °C (−35.0 °F), on 28 December 2002." But then on the table below that, there are temperatures listed as -41 ºC. Which one is it?
	Isn't there a misinformation when saying Erzurum was the scene of massacres during 1890s? Where are the references? Who claimed the references to be the truth? If I go and state on Armenia that it was the scene of Azerbaijani massacres would you the Armenians keep that info in there as well, or delete it in a hurry? <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:32, 27 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:The information is fully sourced, if you care to actually read the entry. Earlier versions of this entry actually included quotes from the newspaper articles but they were removed by another editor, a mistake given that genocide-denialists will try to creep through the smallest gap. ] 18:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
	::I reverted unexplained partial blanking by an IP as the info is sourced and significant. ] (]) 22:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
	:::I've just done the same thing. ] 22:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

			] (]) 08:48, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
	This article needs some clean up. It seems a little strange that almost half of the article about this important city in Eastern Turkey is dedicated to its Armenian history and their fate. These are topics discussed and distorted and inflated at length in many dedicated articles. Can we make this article more about Erzurum? The reference to Erzurum being an "extermination" center is unsubstantiated and not sure what that even means. There were gas chambers and ovens there? This needs more backup. One can not elaborate what happened in Erzurum during WWI without also elaborating what happened there to its Muslim citizens and what Armenians and Russians did to them. It may be best to indicate that the city changed hands a few times and was the site intense warfare and civil war. All this is open to constructive discussion.--] (]) 21:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

			== Armenian name of the city ==
	:Murat, please consider my "sleeping dogs" comment I made to you in another article. You ''really'' do not want stir things up here because you will not like the properly referenced and sourced article that will result from it. Unlike Bitlis or Sasun, I know enough, and have the material, to confidently write about Erzurum. ] 23:30, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

	I am ~~afraid~~ ~~the~~ ~~dogs~~ are ~~already~~ ~~awake~~ ~~and~~ at ~~work~~. Is it ~~really~~ ~~possible~~ to ~~demonize~~ ~~Turks~~ ~~more~~? ~~Though~~ I do ~~have~~ a ~~healthy~~ ~~respect~~ ~~for~~ ~~your~~ ~~capacity~~ ~~for~~ ~~self-deception~~ and ~~ethnic~~ ~~propaganda.--~~] (]) 20:57, 8 ~~June~~ ~~2008~~ (UTC)		Armenian "name" of Erzurum are not requires. There are no Armenians living in Erzurum. Why are you writing the Armenian name of the cities in eastern Anatolia? Erzurum is Turkish city. Are you supporting the territorial claims of Armenia on the Erzurum and Eastern Anatolia? ] (]) 10:23, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	::Your removal of information you've labeled as "propaganda", is referenced and is also referenced here <ref>http://en.wikipedia.org/Van_Resistance#Hamidian_Massacres</ref>. ] (]) 01:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	I think this entry might need to be semi-protected so that unregistered editors can't edit it. Every week or so, over the past few months, an anonymous editor (or editors) keeps removing the same sourced material. ] 19:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

			I have just modified 2 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	{{tlx\|editprotected}} The so-called picture in the article 1) is not a photograph but a signed painting 2) origin is obscure, no reference given. I request that it be removed as it only serves as an ethnic propaganda tool as much of the article. Secondly, the long and detailed description of the fate of Armenians in Erzurum should at least be accompanied by description of what happened to the local Muslim population when Armenians and Russians took it. All my attempts to bring some balance to the article have been thwarted. --] (]) 05:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101127014155/http://meteor.gov.tr/veridegerlendirme/il-ve-ilceler-istatistik.aspx?m=ERZURUM to http://meteor.gov.tr/veridegerlendirme/il-ve-ilceler-istatistik.aspx?m=ERZURUM
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060706141701/http://www.erzurum-bld.gov.tr/ to http://www.erzurum-bld.gov.tr/

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	:{{EP\|c}} ] ] 11:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
	::I said "semiprotected" not fully protected! There is no dispute of a scale that needs protecing the article in this way. The anonymous edits were vandalism, not a content dispute. The picture is a photo, references exist, I'll get them. ] 02:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	== Massacre of Armenians in Erzurum picture ==

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 10:56, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
	I believe this picture to be out of place. I understand the emphasis that some want to place on the Armenian Genocide, but a simple link to the AG page would accomplish this task. Some current and past pictures of Erzurum would greatly improve this article. ''Thoughts'', '''concerns'''?? ] (]) 16:25, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
	:It only seems out of place because the article's history of Erzurum section is so inadequate and tiny. Once it is expanded to its righful size, the photo won't be out of place. BTW, the event is connected to the Hamidian massacres, not the Armenian genocide. ] 02:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	It is out of place of course. Only picture in an article about Erzurum is NOT about or of Erzurum! Why not also include a picture of Turks killed by Armenians there too?. It was a site of major massacres by Armenians afterall. There is clearly no good intentions here. Besides, what kind of photographer "signs" a photo? It is sad and unfortunate that this is the state of the entry that is under "protection".--] (]) 12:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:It was very common for people to "sign" photographs (or rather have the name on the prints) in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. You can find many many such examples from Ottoman times. ] (]) 17:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
	I can not recall a single such example, not to mention that I can clearly see the brush strokes. Regardless, the picture does not belong there, as there is not a single picture Erzurum in an Erzurum article. How does this copyrighted (right?) picture make it all the way here by the way?--] (]) 00:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
	:Since you seem interested in Ottoman history Hüdavendigâr, I suggest that you look at collections of old photographs or postcards of Ottoman cities. These will often have the photographer's or studio's name printed in one of the bottom corners. Secondly, if you are confused about copyrights then please note the following paragraph attached to the photo:<blockquote>"This media file is in the public domain in the United States. This applies to U.S. works where the copyright has expired, often because its first publication occurred prior to January 1, 1923. See this page for further explanation."</blockquote> ] (]) 05:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
	::Just as nowadays it is very common for web sites to put website addresses on their photos. In both cases it was to stop others stealing them and reusing them. I.e. as far as copyright recognition goes, 21st-century electronic media is as lawless as 19th-century print media! ] 19:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::The photograph is by an American photographer named William Sachtleben who was in Erzurum at that time in order to investigate the disapearance of another American citizen who had been travelling from Persia to Turkey. The photo actually depicts the bodies of some of the victims being gathered prior to being buried in a mass grave. So the caption needs to be rewritten as the current wording suggests the dead are lying where they were killed. See "The W. L. Sachleben Papers on Erzurum in the 1890s" in "Armenian Karin/Erzurum", 2003. ] 19:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

			I have just modified 2 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	::::Yet the motivation is the same, whether it's the Armenian Genocide or Hamidian massacres. The picture does nothing to improve the article. '''Why isn't that picture on the Hamidian massacres article??''' That is where it belongs. This article would improve, if it had pictures of Erzurum, not certain events in its past. ] (]) 20:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090718210306/http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=180776&bolum=107 to http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=180776&bolum=107
	:::::I think if you go way way back into the history of this article we will find that the illustration was added because someone was disputing the fact of the massacres, and the illustration was accompanied with a quote from the actual newspaper report. As long as we can be sure that mention of the massacres in Erzurum isn't going to be removed, then you may be right that the image would be better placed in the Hamidian massacres article. ] 21:15, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121023213047/http://archnet.org/library/places/one-place.jsp?place_id=1661 to http://archnet.org/library/places/one-place.jsp?place_id=1661

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	::::::The Hamidian massacres has 3 sources, so I don't see any reason for it to be removed. The picture, in question, would be better served on the Hamidian Massacre article, IMO. ] (]) 09:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	Coming back to this picture. No, sorry, illustration. No, figure of speech. Well, whatever it is, certainly not a picture as the title misleads. Everything about this "illustration" is wrong here. There is no source. No reference. Picture text includes primitive ethnic propaganda but nothing about who took it where and when and any info on the usage and copyright and where it is published. Worst of all, as one can clearly see, it is NOT a photo! It is a painting. I can see the brush strokes and light and shadows are all wrong and then there is the artist's signature at the corner. Not to mention it adds nothing to an article on Erzurum. Let me hear one more time why it belongs here.--] (]) 23:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 02:05, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
	Can't you first read what others have written? It IS a photograph. I had already given a full reference for it. ] 19:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2020 ==
	== Name ==

			{{edit semi-protected\|Erzurum\|answered=yes}}
	The article states that the name derives from the Persian "Arz-u Rum" but it should be from the Arabic "Arḍ-ar-Rūm" (ارض الروم). "Arḍ" literally means "land, region or country" while "Rūm" derives from "Roman" but means "Greek". ] (]) 07:51, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
			The page contains wrong information about the city's emblem.
			There is no such thing as Anatolian Seljuk Eagle, it is the Roman / Byzantine double headed eagle
			that has a Misplaced Pages page already. Editors should replace the hyperlink to point to that page,
			instead of the current re-direct to the Rum page. ] (]) 20:18, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
			:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> The Seljuk Eagle and the Roman Eagle are both actual things. Which is correct as the city's symbol needs to be established with ]. ] ] ] 20:03, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

			== No freedom of information ==
	"Rum" means Roman, here more specifically "Eastern Roman", or "Bizans". Word for "Greek: is different: Yunan. People of the time knew which was which.--] (]) 16:45, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
	:The inhabitants of the Byzantine empire, though ethnically mostly Greek, called themselves "Romans" because they considered their empire to be a direct continuation of the Roman empire. ] 19:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
	:Hüdavendigâr, you are confusing modern Turkish and Arabic from the 10th century or so. Rūm comes from Roman but it had taken on a different meaning for the Arabs (and then the Turks etc). As you know, Rûm was also used in Ottoman times to refer to the Ottoman Empire's Greek inhabitants. Only after the establishment of the Greek state did need for the term Yunan emerge. ] (]) 05:35, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

			I see that Misplaced Pages has turned out to be Genopedia. Might as well change the name of the article to Armenizurum! I have no interest in edit warring or wasting my time with ignoramuses who have nothing better to do but swim in their own sewers. You can keep censoring. All of it is being recorded and archived. Future generations will be ashamed of your actions because you have no shame left.
	You simply repeated what I said. I do not think I am the one who is cofused. You said: "...region or country" while "Rūm" derives from "Roman" but means "Greek"..." It clearly does NOT mean Greek. Your claim that Romans or Eastern Romans were "ethnic" Greek is rather baseless. "Greeks" of today are as much related to original "ethnic" (whatever that means) Greeks, as Egyptians of today are related to Pharoes. Many groups, tribes and nations were attracted around major Roman cities for economic and security reasons which also ended up adopting the superior culture of the ruling elite. That does not make them ethnic relatives. Balkans are (or were) full of muslim Slavs, who have no ethnic relationship to Turks (whatever that means also!). Eastern Romans carried and adopted Greek language and alphabet of course, but there are also many non-Arab nations which have adopted Arabic alphabet and even language who are not ethnic Arabs. It is all a moot discussion of course, whoever calls himself a Greek is a Greek in my book. Identity is a different issue than ethnicity or biology. Two are often confused, especially by nationalist minded.--] (]) 22:34, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

			I will say this to some partial pro-Armenian POV editors: What genocide? It’s not a genocide when it’s not officially commissioned. ] (]) 04:11, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
	== Unfair representation of Erzurum ==
	Erzurum is a very beautiful city with lots of historic monuments and wonderful natural scenery. Yet, the only image of the city is a photo of dead Armenians. Massacres have taken place elsewhere in the world. How "fair" would be a Paris article represented by a single picture of the dead Parisians in 1789?

			== Fethullah Gülen ==
	Armenians want their plight to be known, but they are going to extreme ways in using Misplaced Pages as a propaganda tool. Luckily, the "real world" out there is not run by the "imaginary world" of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 02:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

			On another note, there are claims online about ], the head of the ], having Armenian roots. Not surprising considering the Ottoman Empire was composed of many nationalities and intermarriages occurred. We should do some serious research on the topic and perhaps move him under the “Others” subtitle. However, this research should be done by impartial and informed users, and not flag waving POV editors who are supported by certain agendas. ] (]) 04:27, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
	:See above. Thanks. --] (]) 02:11, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
			:You can try to do so first at his own Misplaced Pages article and see how the consensus will be there.] (]) 15:40, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
	::Obviously Pantepoptes has chosen not the "see above" - he has made two more attempts at removing the massacre photo. He is also attempting to stuff the article full of off-topic images (perhaps thinking that they will hide the absence of on-topic ones like the massacre photo). For example, an image of a world map made by someone who happened to come from Erzurum - a map that doesn't show Erzurum and which wasn't even drawn in Erzurum - is not suitable for this article. Nor do images like the entrance to Erzurum airport (which, apart from the sign on it, is exactly the same as the entrance to every provincial airport in Turkey) add anything to the quality of the article! ] 22:22, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
	:::I agree with Meowy here. The world map image is off-topic and irrelevant. Erzurum was furthermore the site of a major massacre, not just any massacre, so the picture is justified. Lastly, the accusations of Armenians "going to extreme ways in using wikipedia as a propaganda tool" is subjective and empty, and moreover not surprising from someone who edits like a Turkish government publicist. --] (]) 22:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
	::::I've taken out the off-topic images and reinserted the on-topic one. ] 15:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

	==~~Sources~~==		== Serengülian ==

	Lets use neutral sources shall we? ] (]) 04:51, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
			Serengülian was killed by a brigand while serving his prison term for crimes against the state before the alleged genocide started. Suffice it to look at his article on Misplaced Pages. That’s where I got this info. So I added a source too. Why keep reverting it and insisting on a different narrative? Is there no middle way? ] (]) 12:09, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

			:Because the notion is absurd and no one takes Turkish official historiography at its word? Just a thought. ] (]) 12:45, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
			::At the Vartkes Serengülian Misplaced Pages article it is stated that he was killed by Cerkez Ahmet. Then also to come up with a former Turkish Minister called Veysel Eroglu as a source for Armenian matters will have no consensus on Misplaced Pages.] (]) 15:35, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

			No true historian or serious researcher can take genocide propagandists seriously either. It’s just an agenda with no official records to prove it. My earlier comments still stand. :) ] (]) 04:07, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

			@Paradise Chronicle, you have little say considering your edit history. However, I would like to point out that you also lack understanding based on you missing the info in the Serengülian article mentioning his killing BEFORE the so-called genocide. Just in case others “miss” it too. LOL ] (]) 04:19, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

			== Arabic origin of the current name of the city ==

			The origin of the current name of the city comes from Arabic. Now I know some radical pro-Armenian editors (you know who you are) will try to vandalize and revert this fact. Keep in mind that you cannot change certain undeniable facts, especially when they are reliably sourced. Right? ] (]) 05:05, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2021 ==

			{{edit semi-protected\|Erzurum\|answered=yes}}
			They lie, undermine and marginalize the Kurdish population count and influence. The article is so on sided. ] (]) 06:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
			:{{Not done unclear}} Before sending such a request, please state what needs to be done in your opinion, in a 'change X to Y' format. ] (]) 10:33, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2021 ==

			{{edit semi-protected\|Erzurum\|answered=yes}}
			Wrong info - Armenian heritage is hidden ] (]) 13:51, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
			:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 14:04, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

			== Koppen Climate classification ==

			It should be Dfb not Dsb since none of six warmest months are at least a third drier than coldest six months. ] (]) 21:15, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

			:You're right, per the 1991-2020 data, Erzurum is Dfb; although probably not for the reasons you think. It was not Dfb by 1981-2010 normals, because Köppen does not define 'summer' and 'winter' using warmer/colder months, per this<ref name="Peel">{{cite journal \|author1=Peel, M. C. \|author2=Finlayson B. L. \|author3=McMahon, T. A. \|name-list-style=amp \|year=2007 \|title=Updated world map of the Köppen−Geiger climate classification \|url=http://www.hydrol-earth-syst-sci.net/11/1633/2007/hess-11-1633-2007.pdf \|journal=Hydrol. Earth Syst. Sci. \|volume=11 \|issue=5 \|pages=1633–1644 \|bibcode=2007HESS...11.1633P \|doi=10.5194/hess-11-1633-2007 \|issn=1027-5606 \|doi-access=free}}</ref> study: in here, 'Summer' is defined as April to September. ] (]) 01:58, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

			{{reflist-talk}}

			== Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2023 ==

			{{Edit semi-protected\|Erzurum\|answered=yes}}
			Remove Template:Metropolitan municipalities in Turkey. With the exception of Istanbul, where the link ] redirects to the city, all the links go to provinces which are NOT equal to the cities their named after. ] (]) 22:58, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
			:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 04:16, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

			== Removal of image is necessary per WP:Gore ==
			The removal of in the section ] is necessary due to ]. Bear in mind that Misplaced Pages is also accessed by children, and such an image (with severed heads) has no place in an article about a "city" (]). ] (]) 23:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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Armenian name should be included as an alternative native name

Providing alternative names to geographical locations is supported per Misplaced Pages:NCPLACE. In this case, the Armenian name Կարին (Garin), should be added to the article since, as the article states, the area was heavily populated by Armenians throughout much of its history. See General Guidelines section in Misplaced Pages:NCPLACE: "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted." According to this principal, we should place the Armenian name of the city or of any other minority living in Erzurum that has produced a significant presence. See Diyarbakir or Gulf of Finland as examples. Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:29, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Can you tell me, there is a strong reason to Armenian name stay there? Expect that Armenian name, currently, there are four name in section of Name and etymology. Ottoman Turkish, Latin, Kurdish, Greek! Why, only the Armenian name? This is a clear example of your violate of WP:NPOV. The Armenian population is not in question in the city and previous name was not Armenian anyway in the Ottoman Empire! Example of Gulf of Finland: Four countries are basin, it's a very natural. Can you explain Alexandroupoli, Komotini, Didymoteicho, Xanthi...Thousands of Turks living there. Armenian name should stay Name and etymology! Next edit war, this issue, along with other Turkish cities will go to the WP:ARB! Maurice07 (talk) 11:54, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

I never added the Armenian name and if other minorities do lived or presently live in Erzurum, I would gladly put it along side the Armenian name. I also don't mind if Alexandroupoli, Komotini, Didymoteicho, Xanthi has a Turkish name in the lead but this is not the topic of discussion we should be having here on this talk page. If you feel we need to add Turkish names, please refer to their talk pages. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:53, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Kmoksy removed the Armenian name from the lead three times. The user claims "Armenian name is not current". And as noted by EtienneDolet, the Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names) states:

“

Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted.

”

I invite him to the talk page to discuss the issue. I'd like to hear his arguments. --Երևանցի 18:22, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

The city a Turkish city, not Armenian city.--Kmoksy (talk) 18:26, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Please read the guidelines. It clearly states that the name used by "a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted" to be used in the lead. Erzurum had a significant Armenian population until 1915 (the last Armenians left in early 1918). Numerous 17-19th century sources call it the "capital of Turkish Armenia", including English historian Edward Gibbon.paragraphy 6 "Arzeroum, the modern capital of Turkish Armenia"

And after all, the history section of this article talks about its Armenian population. The Armenian name is clearly relevant. --Երևանցի 18:34, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

So we should add Urartu, Azeri, Georgian, ... names also? Because those peoples lived also in Erzurum. Beshogur (talk) 15:30, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Just because Chinese people live in Vancouver should not mean we must add Chinese as an alternative language. As far as I'm concerned, Erzurum/Garin played an intrinsic role in the development of arts, literature, and culture for the Armenian people for centuries, especially during the medieval period. If you can somehow prove that Georgians and Azeris had such a significant presence in this town for centuries, by all means place them there. However, that'll be quite a difficult task since we had this same discussion at the Kars article and it proved to be negative. If there's barely any proof for Georgian and Azeri presence in Kars, I highly doubt that would be the case in Erzurum. Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:27, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Anyway we should add the Azerbaijani or Ottoman name (Revan/Erivan) into Yerevan article because, the city had before 50% Azeri population before? Beshogur (talk) 10:03, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

You don't seem to grasp the point EtienneDolet is driving at. The point isn't whether or not Yerevan had a significant Azerbaijani population or not - it's their relation to that city. Erzurum's original name was Karin/Garin, a name that was used, as far as we can tell, for close to two millennia by their original inhabitants, the Armenians. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 15:46, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Therefore I said: See the name and etymology section, you can see the Armenian name here. Erzurum has not Armenian population now, nor Kurdish, so you can't add Armenian language. What if we add Arabic/Turkish/Azeri name into Yerevan article? Because Yerevan word comes from Arabic: Revan, so to walk. Beshogur (talk) 17:36, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

You really need to (re)read WP:NCGN. It concerns not only those living there currently, but those who lived there in the past as well. See: Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Garin falls in both criteria. As for your argument to use the Azerbaijani name for Yerevan: that has long been debated and there's a long standing consensus to not have the Azerbaijani name for Yerevan and not have the Armenian name for Baku, since both populations have contributed greatly to both of their respective cities. And Yerevan doesn't come from the Arabic. That's WP:FRINGE theory, and it's the first time I've ever heard that. Yerevan comes from Erepuni, its old Urartian name. -puni was supplemented by -van meaning town or city. Other cities, such as Tatvan (in Turkey), Nakhchivan (in Azeribaijan), Stepanavan, Ijevan, Byureghavan, Charentsavan (all in Armenia), etc. etc. all have these stems. There's also another theory that claims Yerevan was named after Yervand, an ancient Armenian king of the Yervandian dynasty. This is corroborated with the establishment of Yervandashat. This all happened long before the arrival of the Arabs. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:22, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Still no answer. Beshogur (talk) 11:50, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Erzurum was inhabited by Armenians for millenia. The Azeri name of Yerevan is simply a different spelling of the original Armenian name. Karin is the Armenian name of the city used for many centuries before Turkic influx to the region. --Երևանցի 12:59, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Karin / Garin should be there because it is a fully alternative name for the city - it has no linguistic connection to the name "Erzurum", so comparisons with the various variations of the name Yerevan, (Erivan, Irvan, Revan, etc.) are false comparisons. The argument that it is not a current "official" name is equally invalid - alternative names can be (and in fact most often are) unofficial or historical ones. The name Karin is still in active use in academic literature that deals with the history of the settlement (for example, we have the 2003 book titled "Armenian Karin/Erzurum" by Richard G. Hovhannisian (ed.)) and I think (though can't provide a source for this) that the name Karin is still widely used by Armenians when they refer to Erzurum. However, my feeling is that Karin should not have the Armenian transliteration before it, but after it. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:09, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Lowest recorded temperature

At the climate section, it is stated "The lowest recorded temperature is −37.2 °C (−35.0 °F), on 28 December 2002." But then on the table below that, there are temperatures listed as -41 ºC. Which one is it?

2001:8A0:F252:ED01:D482:F72A:D175:C6D6 (talk) 08:48, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Armenian name of the city

Armenian "name" of Erzurum are not requires. There are no Armenians living in Erzurum. Why are you writing the Armenian name of the cities in eastern Anatolia? Erzurum is Turkish city. Are you supporting the territorial claims of Armenia on the Erzurum and Eastern Anatolia? Ahmet7007 (talk) 10:23, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2020

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The page contains wrong information about the city's emblem. There is no such thing as Anatolian Seljuk Eagle, it is the Roman / Byzantine double headed eagle that has a Misplaced Pages page already. Editors should replace the hyperlink to point to that page, instead of the current re-direct to the Rum page. 94.70.2.94 (talk) 20:18, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The Seljuk Eagle and the Roman Eagle are both actual things. Which is correct as the city's symbol needs to be established with reliable sources. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:03, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

No freedom of information

I see that Misplaced Pages has turned out to be Genopedia. Might as well change the name of the article to Armenizurum! I have no interest in edit warring or wasting my time with ignoramuses who have nothing better to do but swim in their own sewers. You can keep censoring. All of it is being recorded and archived. Future generations will be ashamed of your actions because you have no shame left.

I will say this to some partial pro-Armenian POV editors: What genocide? It’s not a genocide when it’s not officially commissioned. 786wave (talk) 04:11, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Fethullah Gülen

On another note, there are claims online about Fethullah Gülen, the head of the Gulen Movement, having Armenian roots. Not surprising considering the Ottoman Empire was composed of many nationalities and intermarriages occurred. We should do some serious research on the topic and perhaps move him under the “Others” subtitle. However, this research should be done by impartial and informed users, and not flag waving POV editors who are supported by certain agendas. 786wave (talk) 04:27, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

You can try to do so first at his own Misplaced Pages article and see how the consensus will be there.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:40, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Serengülian

Serengülian was killed by a brigand while serving his prison term for crimes against the state before the alleged genocide started. Suffice it to look at his article on Misplaced Pages. That’s where I got this info. So I added a source too. Why keep reverting it and insisting on a different narrative? Is there no middle way? 786wave (talk) 12:09, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Because the notion is absurd and no one takes Turkish official historiography at its word? Just a thought. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 12:45, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

At the Vartkes Serengülian Misplaced Pages article it is stated that he was killed by Cerkez Ahmet. Then also to come up with a former Turkish Minister called Veysel Eroglu as a source for Armenian matters will have no consensus on Misplaced Pages.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:35, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

No true historian or serious researcher can take genocide propagandists seriously either. It’s just an agenda with no official records to prove it. My earlier comments still stand. :) 786wave (talk) 04:07, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle, you have little say considering your edit history. However, I would like to point out that you also lack understanding based on you missing the info in the Serengülian article mentioning his killing BEFORE the so-called genocide. Just in case others “miss” it too. LOL 786wave (talk) 04:19, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Arabic origin of the current name of the city

The origin of the current name of the city comes from Arabic. Now I know some radical pro-Armenian editors (you know who you are) will try to vandalize and revert this fact. Keep in mind that you cannot change certain undeniable facts, especially when they are reliably sourced. Right? 786wave (talk) 05:05, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2021

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They lie, undermine and marginalize the Kurdish population count and influence. The article is so on sided. Rushk97 (talk) 06:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Not done – please clarify Before sending such a request, please state what needs to be done in your opinion, in a 'change X to Y' format. Uness232 (talk) 10:33, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2021

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Wrong info - Armenian heritage is hidden David Sargsyan 777 (talk) 13:51, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Run n Fly (talk) 14:04, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Koppen Climate classification

It should be Dfb not Dsb since none of six warmest months are at least a third drier than coldest six months. 92.40.174.208 (talk) 21:15, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

You're right, per the 1991-2020 data, Erzurum is Dfb; although probably not for the reasons you think. It was not Dfb by 1981-2010 normals, because Köppen does not define 'summer' and 'winter' using warmer/colder months, per this study: in here, 'Summer' is defined as April to September. Uness232 (talk) 01:58, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Peel, M. C.; Finlayson B. L. & McMahon, T. A. (2007). "Updated world map of the Köppen−Geiger climate classification" (PDF). Hydrol. Earth Syst. Sci. 11 (5): 1633–1644. Bibcode:2007HESS...11.1633P. doi:10.5194/hess-11-1633-2007. ISSN 1027-5606.

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Remove Template:Metropolitan municipalities in Turkey. With the exception of Istanbul, where the link Istanbul Province redirects to the city, all the links go to provinces which are NOT equal to the cities their named after. 68.109.180.231 (talk) 22:58, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Done Lightoil (talk) 04:16, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Removal of image is necessary per WP:Gore

The removal of this image with severed heads in the section World War I and Turkish War of Independence is necessary due to WP:Gore. Bear in mind that Misplaced Pages is also accessed by children, and such an image (with severed heads) has no place in an article about a "city" (Erzurum). 178.244.132.200 (talk) 23:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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