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| width="48px" | ] || This article was nominated for ] {{#if:] ]|on ] ]|recently}}. The result of ] was '''no consensus'''. | |||
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{{Old AfD multi| date = 28 February 2007 | result = '''no consensus''' | page = Denialism }} | |||
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== xyz denialism == | |||
If we are going to list various titles with the word denialism in them then the sources should use the term and they should be reliable sources. It is easy to find reliable sources that use the term "AIDS denialism" but the only Google book, or scholar source, I could find for "vaccine denialism" was one which quotes this article "" | |||
there are total of three papers for "climate change denialism" including the Draft that quotes this page, and "evolution denialism", and only the Draft that quotes this page. | |||
It may be that there are some reliable sources on the net itslf (news papers etc) for example I did a search on "evolution-denialism" and Google returned a Time article but it turned out that the phrase "evolution-denialism" was only in the blog entries attached to the article. | |||
I suggest that the sentence is rewritten to something link this "The term has been used with 'holocaust denialism', and 'AIDS denialism'. Other scientific facts and theories underpinning vaccination, climate change, and evolution, have also been subject to attacks by people who deny the the validity of the underlying science." As the sources supplied support such wording. --] (]) 11:29, 11 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
== First sentence == | |||
I have found a source that gives a definition for denialism. "denialism is the refusal to accept an empirically verifiable reality. It is an essentially irrational action that withholds validation of an historical experience or event." (''A Cross Too Heavy: Eugenio Pacelli, Politics and the Jews of Europe 1917-1943'' by Paul O'Shea, Rosenberg Publishing, 2008. ISBN 1877058718. ). Unless a source can be found for the first sentence in the article I suggest that we replace the current definition with this one. If other definitions can be found then they can be summarised into a more complete definition but until such time as that is done this one can be used in quotes.--] (]) 09:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
==NPOV== | |||
:Is anthropogenic global warming, err uh I mean climate change, an "historical experience or event"? I think not. Of course, it's no wonder that the editors of this article -- over the course of it's nearly three year of existence -- are having trouble establishing a definition. Covering all the ground that they claim the term covers as a discrete phenomenon -- from the Holocaust to global warming to AIDS to evolution to vaccination -- is no easy task. In reality, canvassing how the word is used with any semblance of NPOV, shows that it's a pejorative used in polemics, plain and simple. And clearly, anyone who disagrees with me is merely engaging in, err uh, <i>denialism</i>. ] 13:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::Nice blanket ]. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 14:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::See ]. Duh... ] 15:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
See ] "What I am concerned with is that this article does not even hint at the fact that the word denialism is not a common word, and that its use can be a trick of rhetoric. It can be used a trick of rhetoric, because it allows the author to frame the debate. ..." --] (]) 12:34, 2 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
== Not in the Oxford English Dictionary == | |||
:''See previous discussion ]'' | |||
I think it needs noting that this word does not appear in the OED. --] (]) 12:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:And that thread demonstrated that you didn't have support for that thought. I see ''no reason whatsoever'' to reopen the matter again. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub><sup>''(''']''')</sup></font> 14:28, 2 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::There is no harm in continuing a discussion were there was not a consensus. I think it is important to note that this is not a commonly used word, and does not have a dictionary agreed definition. Do you think that is not a valid point that needs inclusion in some way? --] (]) 18:21, 2 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::The consensus was that nobody agreed with you. This is simply ] disruption. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub><sup>''(''']''')</sup></font> 18:39, 2 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::Agreed. PBS, you are the ''only'' editor who feels this should be included. No one else agrees, hence concensus is against you. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 15:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
== Reference troubles and an underlying concern == | |||
You both argued that it was against Wikpedia policy not that it was a bad idea in itself to mention that it not a word used in dictionaries. I thought we were disusing ways in which such information could be included within policies, not that you thought it was detrimental to mention it in the article. Do either of you object to mentioning the fact that it is not a word include in the major general dictionaries, or just that to date we have not been able to agree on wording to incorporate that information? --] (]) 11:24, 4 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
: Consensus, and basic good editing, was and is again against you on this. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 11:33, 4 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::It is not clear from that answer if you mean that you do not approve of incorporating this information or if you do not think that the information is pertinent to this article. --] (]) 11:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::: If you can bring what I and others asked for in the previous thread (hint: RS stating this is notable), then I'll consider that. You've brought nothing new, consensus was clear, and this thread has been correctly called by Hrafn. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 11:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::It's a bad idea ''until'' we can find reliable sources that show this is imporant to the term. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 14:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::<s>What consensus? --] (]) 19:30, 25 August 2009 (UTC)</s> Whoops wrong section --] (]) 23:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::: The every-editor-except-you consensus here and previously, and the consensus of the wikipedia community in forming the relevant guidelines and policies. Those ones. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 20:57, 25 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
As far as I can tell, Reference 1 is a newspaper book review of Reference 19, which is itself a journalist's account. Therefore, this article does not actually appear to cite any standard "psychological" definition of denialism (I have searched in vain for such a thing). '''While there are clearly an array of examples of organized prevarication and/or overeager, self-serving credulity that can be gathered under some generic heading, how do we proceed if "denialism" is effectively a pseudoscientific claim in itself, or just a popular meme, rather than a formally documented, diagnosable behavior or tendency?''' If one follows the chain of references far enough, most of the concept is ultimately based on blog posts by the brothers Hoofnagle (e.g., Refs 12 and 34), each of whom has impressive credentials —— just not in psychology or sociology, as might be expected. Alas, some of them even loop back to this Misplaced Pages article. ] (]) 01:39, 20 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Second paragraph == | |||
== "Deny, deny, deny" (defense strategy, politics) == | |||
"Individuals, or groups ..." it has been over a month since a quote on the talk page was requested from the supporting citations on the talk page for the second paragraph. If quotes to support the paragraph are not provided soon I will removed the paragraph. --] (]) 11:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
Denial as a political and defense strategy is both IRL widespread and non properly covered on Misplaced Pages ifaik. Trump, but also Biden, Macron, Putin, all use it to spread doubt event when solid observables (=facts) are presented. The communicative, political, strategic side of denial deserves better coverage. ] ] 🐲 11:26, 29 September 2021 (UTC) (Note: I keep this article creation in mind for myself as well but I'am already loaded with other articles) | |||
: I see two footnotes, so I've removed the cn tag and the misused quote tags. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 11:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:] This article has added a paragraph about the electoral conspiracy. The U.S. political movement driven by that conspiracy is described in ]. But it's a conspiracy that has a long history in global elections. ] (]) 16:35, 14 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
::See ]. Please explain why you think the quote tags were misused. --] (]) 11:46, 4 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::: There are two sources. What do you expect from a quote? What do you dispute? <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 11:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::I expect quotes on the talk page to be from the cited sources which clearly support the wording in the second paragraph. I am not sure why you should remove the requests that have been there for over a month and are not unreasonable requests, particularly as I have not acted on the requests but given other editors plenty of time to find and quote the sources. I will reinstate the requests into the article so that other people can see that this has been requested while it is discussed on the talk page. --] (]) 15:53, 4 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
== Genetically Modified Food controversies more genuinely controversial than presented here == | |||
It does not take a lot to find an open source that can help to support the sentence. For example quick, Google of the phrase "denialism refutes science conducted by thousands of researchers" turns up a number of unreliable sources and this on in Google books: Seth C. Kalichman, Nicoli Nattrass ''Denying AIDS: Conspiracy Theories, Pseudoscience, and Human Tragedy'', . I am sure with more searching I could find more. But I had assumed that whoever had placed the citations in the article would have access to them. This is part of ] ("burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material"), and the best way to get an article properly cited is to ask for accurate citations. Where the text of a citations are not available to all editors, to have the text in those citations quoted on the talk page if it is requested is not unresonable. ] instead of edit warring over my tags asking for improvements, why not look around for reliable sources to back up the sentences, or quote the relevant text in this section those which are already there? --] (]) 16:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
{{cot|User:Entropy1963 has made it clear by their last comment that they’re dragging this out because they’re personally offended. Per, ] and ], I don’t see any point in letting this keep going. If there’s unrelated disputes here that need to be addressed, please consider starting a new discussion ] (]) 18:23, 23 June 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
:There are specific citations to journals for that statement. Why do you need actual quotes, and why didn't you check the journals to provide them yourself? — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 21:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
Food, agriculture related ecology and dietary health are more complex topics than the suggestion in this article that opposition to GMOs is denialist implies. | |||
Evidence of recent findings concerning the impact of varied diet on human microbiome diversity and consequent health outcomes implies an emergent and relevant area of knowledge. GMO cropping systems seem likely to come under this developing area of scientific scrutiny. Application of the precautionary principle until more is known can't impartially be described as 'denialist'. | |||
:::How do you know that the sources support the sentences? Have you read the sources? If so can you quote the portions of the articles that support the Misplaced Pages sentence? If not why remove the templates asking for quotes to support the Misplaced Pages sentence? I have not read them because they are both available online but only through subscription, and as most people who wishes to check if the sources support the statement will also have to pay to view, it does not seem unreasonable to ask for a quote from the citations to support the sentence. If the sentences had been written and a citation had been given at the same time, it is more likely that the source supports a sentence. But when a sentence is written months before the first citation was given by a different editor to those who wrote the initial sentences (without changing a word when the citation was given), it is not unreasonable to ask for a quote on the talk page to show which sentences support the sentence in Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 23:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::] does not require that the source be free. If you really want to verify what they say, you can either pay the fee, or ask someone else to obtain a copy for you. And, let's be frank: if I ''wanted'' to lie, I could just make up a quote and say it's from the paid source. You'd never know without looking it up yourself (or getting someone else to). That's why placing a quote seems pointless to me, and is not required by WP:V. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 16:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::Why would you want to lie? If you have access to the sources please quote the relevant sections. If not do you not want the citations to be accurate, and how do you know that they are accurate given that the persons who added them did so without altering the text that already existed by a word, it is possible that they were mistaken and a quote on this page would fix that. Why did you remove my requests for quotes on the talk page and another citation, given that unless someone who is contribution to this page has access to the cited sources we can not know that they are accurate? For example it was clear from the sources available for the third paragraph, that the previous statement "The term was first used in the sense of 'holocaust denialism'" was not supported by the citations, so unless someone has access to the sources, for the second paragraph we can not be sure that the sources accurately support the current sentence unless someone is willing to provide the necessary quotes here on the talk page. --] (]) 11:26, 6 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::::*facepalm* You completely missed my point. ] exists because you're not '''supposed''' to take our word for it that the source says what we claim it does. Just putting in quotes doesn't solve the issue. It's not up to ''us'' to prove it to you; you should be relying on your own research. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 15:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
Some of this food impacted gut biome emerging research is linked here: <ref> https://joinzoe.com/post/nature-microbiome-discoveries </ref> | |||
::::::::I think you have misunderstood what I have said. So I'll break it down into sections. What do you think is the purpose of the template {{tl|Request quotation}}? --] (]) 20:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
The article on Genetically Modified Food Controversies: <ref> https://en.wikipedia.org/Genetically_modified_food_controversies <ref> seems more impartial. | |||
← From the template: "''This is particularly helpful for sources that are not available online or are difficult to obtain in order to check the editor's interpretation...''" The source cited is available online and easily obtained. It doesn't count as "difficult to obtain" simply because they require a subscription fee to access. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
Therefore, this section of the denialism article doesn't appear to belong here, as if it remains, inclusion will reasonably be considered controversial until a wider consensus can be achieved. | |||
:So you do not think that are difficult to obtain, but I do as to pay for ever single source that needs to be checked is not economic or practical. Do you have access to these two sources? --] (]) 19:17, 8 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::If I paid for them, I would. This is an age-old argument on Misplaced Pages. Consensus is that information behind a paywall is '''not''' a reason to discount a source. Just like you might not want to pay for books to verify citations, paying for web access is not a burden that fails Misplaced Pages's standards. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 22:22, 8 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::Have you read these two sources? --] (]) 21:00, 11 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::No, not yet. Real life is taking priority over that right now. Have you? — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 21:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::No which is why I am asking for the quote. As I pointed out the citations were retrofitted to the text long after it was written, I do not think it unreasonable to ask for quotes to verify that the sources back up the statements. If you have not read them then you can not know if they do. --] (]) 21:20, 11 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::: I'm afraid you'll have to go to a library yourself if you're unwilling to trust anyone who says they support the text. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 21:25, 11 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Have you read either of the papers? --] (]) | |||
::::::::Has anyone said that they support the text? --] (]) 19:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::] it is not disruptive to ask for verification of a citation. Have you read either of the papers? --] (]) 21:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
← It ''is'' disruptive when you repeatedly spam a talk page witht he same question, especially when it's already been answered. The onus is on ''you'' to verify the information for yourself, and a quote is unnecessary. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 13:47, 18 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
Unless a persuasive argument for keeping this section appears in response, I will attempt removal of this section. ] (]) 11:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
:It is not disruptive to request quotations on the talk page. It is not disruptive to ask someone who is removing such requests if they have read the articles. I am surprised that if you have not read the articles, that you would not like to check that the Misplaced Pages article reflects accurately what the sources state, as you must have followed the links which I provided to the history of the article to show that the citations were added many months after the sentences and that the sentences were not altered in any way to reflect the sources. --] (]) 16:55, 18 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:The article already says, {{tq|There is a scientific consensus that each GM food needs to be tested on a case-by-case basis before introduction}}. The article you linked says nothing about GMOs in general, it does not even contain the words "GMO", "genetic" or "modified" in any combination, so there seems to be no contradiction or even relation to the fact that resistance to GMOs is denialism. --] (]) 15:26, 2 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
::It ''is'' disruptive to ''repeatedly'' make the same demands. And I will check out those articles, but I do have a life outside Misplaced Pages (the last week of which was spent on vacation without Internet access). Your tendentiousness is becoming quite tiresome. The simple fact remains: quotations are '''useless''' in this situation. Until '''you''' read the articles in question, '''you''' cannot verify that any of it is true. Even if I were to provide quotations, why would you just believe me? — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:28, 18 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::Your comment is correct but not persuasive. | |||
:::Why would I not believe you? The quotations would allow anyone who reads the talk page or its archives to verify that the articles support the statement made in the Misplaced Pages article. My reading of ] does not suggest that I am being disruptive asking for prof that a statement in a Misplaced Pages article is valid. Placing tags on the page and giving other editors time to validate the statement is not disruptive behaviour. If after a reasonable length of time the information can not be verified there is no reason why the statement should not be removed from the article until such time as verification is made. You have not read the citations, neither have I and as ] has expressed an opinion on this issue it is not unreasonable to ask if ] has read the articles. --] (]) 09:11, 20 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::Only the fact that “''each GM food needs to be tested on a case-by-case basis before introduction''” is enough to get this example away from the article about Denialism. | |||
::::You really don't get it, do you? I could make up any quotation I wanted to support the citation, and you wouldn't know if you didn't read the source material ''yourself''. Until you do that, you won't know, so why don't you just do that and save us all a lot of headache? I'm done debating this ] of yours, and if you continue to be disruptive I will escalate warnings about it. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 15:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::You may want to check this unbelievable case (]) to understand what “needs to be '''scientifically '''tested” means. | |||
:::::I ] amoung editors. I assume that editors may make mistakes (the reason for asking for the quotes to verify that they have not made a mistake), but I would not assume that an editor would deliberately make up quotes to deceive other editors. If you say that you have read the articles and quote the relevant sections on this page, I will believe that the quotes are genuine. In the mean time I will continue to ask for the quotes to be provided, because it is better that Wikipeia has no information than wrong information. --] (]) 09:20, 21 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:: | |||
::::::Why are you not assuming good faith that the citations are correct? For the last time, if you want to verify the information, ''do it yourself''. Replacing the quotation tags at this point will be considered vandalism and reported as such. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 14:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::I agree that this section needs to be removed. ] (]) 19:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Update: just after posting my comment, I received a message from user Tryptofish that on this page ] a huge discussion already exists related to this wording I mentioned in my post. | |||
:::Only for this reason this section needs to be removed from the article about Denialism for denying, or challenging, ambiguous concepts is not Denialism but a healthy standpoint. | |||
:::I will remove it myself tomorrow believing that it's better to discuss here whether to include this section than to remove it. ] (]) 06:36, 21 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::Misplaced Pages articles are based on reliable sources, not on the mere existence of a discussion on some other Misplaced Pages talk page. --] (]) 07:14, 21 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::{{tq|Only the fact that “''each GM food needs to be tested on a case-by-case basis before introduction''” is enough to get this example away from the article about Denialism}} Reliable sources disagree with you. Reliable sources win. | |||
:::::::Edits which are made in good faith are not vandalism. | |||
:::{{tq|check this unbelievable case}} You are arguing that something may be dangerous because something else turned out to be dangerous. That is whataboutism, purely nonsensical reasoning, which is typical for denialists. --] (]) 07:14, 21 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Someone can add a citation in good faith without it being correct. For example the sentence in this article that started "The term was first used in the sense of ']'" the citations given for that did not explicitly state that that was the first use . It was the first use recorded in the sources given, and it was an easy mistake to make, but the sources did not actually say that this was the first use (I'm guessing but it is more likely that denialism was first used in one of those turgid Marxist papers that were written in stilted English translated from German or Russian some time before WWII). Or should we have left the claim "The term was first used in the sense of ..." just because it was added in good faith even if the citations do not support it? --] (]) 00:26, 22 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::Radioactive isotope exposure has nothing to do with GMO and food testing and approval methods avoids using the general population as a trial experiment. If there are actual adverse effects with a product, it can be evaluated and recalled. The denialism includes ignorance and/or dismissing all of that. The current section could use improvements in my opinion but appears to have its place in this article. Anti-GMO arguments have been pushed a long time without credible evidence to kill the science. Please read the infobox at the top of this talk page reflecting Misplaced Pages's experience with the topic... —]] – 11:21, 21 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Good faith edits made ] in the face of consensus are vandalism. I'm tired of banging my head against this particular wall. If you're really determined on this point, file an ] for outside input. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 16:44, 22 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::You may want to read the article “Straw man” because attacking another argument than the one I posted is “typical” for “denialists”. | |||
::::I’m neither against GM food nor against technology. I’m against people who call denialism something that it's not yet a FACT but an issue controversial enough to involve governments and millions of people. | |||
::::It wasn’t me who wrote “each GM food needs to be tested on a case-by-case basis before introduction” but the author of the article and the “reliable sources” you're all referring to. | |||
:::: | |||
::::My reference to the “Radium Girls” doesn’t mean that “Radioactive isotopes” have anything to do with GMOs. It means that when ignorance about the possible negative effects of a recent technology or whatever new discovery is not out of the question, the technology cannot be called with 100% certainty safe so to call those who challenge it denialists. | |||
:::: | |||
::::Anyway, I’m giving up on my argument! | |||
::::It was my mistake after a decade to get again involved with editing Misplaced Pages. Endless discussions about issues that are self-contradicting yet invisible to anyone who has set up his mind to ignore the obvious. And the obvious is that you can't describe as denialism something that is NOT YET A SOLID FACT but controversial on a massive scale. ] (]) 16:48, 21 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::{{tq|I’m neither against GM food nor against technology.}} Nobody said you were. Your Radium Girls whataboutism does not make much sense other than as pseudo reasoning against GMO. It is not our fault that you did not write clearly. | |||
<--], you are reverting against ], See the sentence "The source cited must unambiguously support the information as it is presented in the article." and the footnote that immediately follows it "When there is dispute about whether the article text is fully supported by the given source, direct quotes from the source and any other details requested should be provided as a courtesy to substantiate the reference". I have pointed out that the sources were added to the sentence months after the sentences were added to the article, with no modification of the sentences to fit the sources. Now it may be that the sources perfectly fit the article text, but it is not unreasonable to seek clarification that the sources back up the text as written. You have said on this talk page that you have not read the source, yet you are removing a request for clarification. Why are you doing that? --] (]) 07:27, 23 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::{{tq|It wasn’t me who wrote “each GM food needs to be tested on a case-by-case basis before introduction”}} I did not say you did. You wrote {{tq|is enough to get this example away from the article about Denialism}}. That is the part RS disagree with you on, because they say opposition to GMO is denialism. | |||
:No. ] even states repeatedly a that ''citations'' are required, multiple times. The footnote says that quotes are a ''courtesy,'' not a requirement. Again, you are ] when you could just read the damn thing yourself. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 20:39, 24 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:: |
:::::{{tq|you can't describe as denialism something that is NOT YET A SOLID FACT but controversial on a massive scale}} But we can describe as denialism something that is false according to scientific consensus, even if you personally are not aware of that consensus and falsely believe it is "controversial on a massive scale". --] (]) 19:10, 21 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
:::]. Not requirement. You've made your requests very clear, and if you want something other than the consensus currently here, file an RFC as I suggested. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 01:57, 25 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::What consensus? --] (]) 23:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::I'll refer to Verbals reply to you in your misplaced post above. No one on this page has agreed with you. Consensus has been that your requests are not relevant to this article. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 02:01, 26 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::::As this conversation has revolved around three people discussing a point, that is hardly a consensus one way or another. In the last 500 edits all you have done is undo other editors edits, and apart from reverting others edits all I can find that Verbal has done is . Why is it that you will not allow this article to be developed further? As you have not read the sources I am questioning. Why not find some that do support the sentence or make some other positive contribution to the article? --] (]) 17:19, 27 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::::You could say I'm impartial and univolved. Please bring RS and suggest improvements you'd like to make. Probably best if you do that in a new section, and not reopen recent debates (such as this, and the dictionary one) <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 19:38, 27 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::::::It is my intention to work through the article paragraph by paragraph. I have already been through paragraph 1 and paragraph 3. So back to paragraph two. Have you read the two sources that are currently attached to paragraph two? --] (]) 19:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
::I do not understand why Philip Baird Shearer (who signs "PBS") is taking this obstructive line. Is any of the statements in the article disputed? If not then to take the line "Misplaced Pages policy is that the onus is on you to provide and verify sources" is empty wikilawyering: policies exist to serve a purpose, and in this case the purpose is to resolve doubt in the case of disputed claims. If, on the other hand, Philip Baird Shearer ''does'' dispute some of the statements, then it would be far more helpful to state exactly what he disputes and why. At least one of the tags for verification which he has placed is actually on a source which is fully and freely available online, so he could easily check it if he wanted to, so why does he instead tag it for verification? ] (]) 13:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::Which source is on line? -- ] (]) 14:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::On reading that question I went back to the article to see. The very first reference that I saw tagged for verification turned out to be available. Presumably anyone else could have found it as easily as I did. I can only repeat '''he could easily check it if he wanted to'''. I will give a link to this one, but I am not spending any more time on checking for others: you can do so as easily as I can, and I have already wasted enough time on this. ] (]) 11:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::Which paragraph in that sources do you think covers "Common forms of denialism arising from ideologies..." for any of these areas of research Holocaust, Holodomor, AIDS, the vaccines, and evolution? Because I could not find in that source any paragraph that covers the first phrase and even if it did I could not find any sentence that mentions "Holodomor denial" (as one example) in that reference. -- ] (]) 16:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::::If you read my comments carefully you will see that I said that the source was available for anyone to verify whether or not it supports the statements in the article. I did '''not''' say that I had done that verification, nor have I: I have spent too long already on this rather unhelpful discussion. ] (]) 12:26, 18 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I never stated that you had verified anything. But I assumed that as the template used was {{tl|verification needed}}, that you know it says "Use this inline template tag to label text which appears doubtful or false and to request source verification. ... In general, add this template only after a good faith attempt to verify information has been made." I have read the source and I do not think it supports the sentence, but I may not be correct, hence my question to you, because it seems that the way forward is to use this template when the source does not seem to back up the statement in the article, rather than immediately deleting the sentence (]). Using this tag allows editors who are interested in the article, to explain how the source supports the statement, either by removing the tag, in which case I will ask them to explain how it does so (just as I have asked you), or by finding a source that does support the statement. Note the changes I have made to the first an third paragraphs in the lead. In the first case I replaced the paragraph with a new one which was supported by a source, and in the third one I rewrote it so that the wording is supported by the source. -- ] (]) 13:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
As noted above, I informed Entropy1963 about the RfC. That RfC consensus is binding on the English Misplaced Pages, as a "discretionary sanctions" aka "contentious topics" determination growing out of the GMO ArbCom case. It's not just some discussion on some other talk page, it is binding. In fact, there's a notice of it near the top of this talk page. So removing or altering that specific content without going through the proper procedures will lead to ]. --] (]) 20:10, 21 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
I have access to The following is a quote from it which seems to support the statement it's used to cite: "The Hoofnagle brothers, a lawyer and a physiologist from the United States, who have done much to develop the concept of denialism, have defined it as the employment of rhetorical arguments to give the appearance of legitimate debate where there is none." I'm about to go catch a train so I don't have time to read the whole paper (or the whole of the above argument, fun as I'm sure that would be). If anyone would like me to check anything else in the paper, give me a note on my talk page. ] (]) 15:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
:Remove all examples. This is ], not ]. Having an article be a list of examples instead of covering the topic in general is a trademark of weak writing on Misplaced Pages. Failing that, obviously leave it in. ] <small>(])</small> 23:22, 21 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:That covers the second half of the sentence but do they cover the main assertion "Individuals, or groups ... are said to be engaging in denialism when they seek to influence policy processes and outcomes"? Because AFAICT individual or groups who "reject propositions on which a scientific or scholarly consensus exists", are engaged in denialism when they use "rhetorical tactics to give the appearance of argument or legitimate debate, when in actuality there is none." whatever the motive for doing so. Do the sources cover the first half of the sentence? | |||
'''Respond to Hob Gadling:''' | |||
:There is a further problem with this sentence as one can be a revisionist scientist who "reject propositions on which a scientific or scholarly consensus exists" and still be correct, for example those scientists who reject a paradigm before a ] takes place. Denial is the refusal to accept an empirically verifiable reality, not the rejection of a academic consensus, unless one rejects the concept of paradigm shifts (would that make one a denialist?). An example of the former is David Irving's comment "I say the following thing: there were no gas chambers in Auschwitz. There have been only mock-ups built by the Poles in the years after the war." and example of the latter is Einstein before his new views became the scientific orthodoxy. So although Hoofnagle brothers may make the claim, it is only true if the arguments are "just rhetorical tactics" (at one point Irving said that the gas chambers at Auschwitz killed no-one, when challenged over this he said he was correct because the ones that exist there now were built after the war -- which is an good example of a rhetorical trick that this sentence rightly disparages), but I think that the current construction of the sentence, is misleading (one could say a rhetorical trick) and needs to be rewritten based on just the sources. --] (]) 10:42, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
Do you know Aristarchus from Samos? If not serch Misplaced Pages to find out. He was claiming some two and a half thousand years ago that the earth goes around the sun but his argument was buried for millennia because there was “scientific consensus” (let alone “obvious” observation) that the sun goes around the earth. | |||
::Olaf Davis, I see that you have replied to a posting in the next section after this date. Have you had time to check to see if the first part of the sentence is supported by the sources? --] (]) 18:03, 29 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
Do you know Clair Cameron Patterson? If not search Misplaced Pages to find out. By reading about him, you may also understand how perspectives which support huge organisations can achieve “scientific consensus” status. | |||
:::Sorry about that - I glanced at this section and saw my name was the last item here without realising you'd replied above it. I haven't had time to check, no (I was deprived of internet access all last week); I'll reply if and when I do. ] (]) 19:07, 29 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
But you will accuse me again of “whataboutism” failing to understand that this page is about Denialism and not the safety of GMOs. | |||
Also, I can check if my institution has access to any other journals which are causing problems. I haven't done so but let me know if it'd be helpful. ] (]) 15:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
On a planet where the human population skyrockets, GMOs will be the only solution to starvation, as was the case with the “Haber process” for the production of ammonia. | |||
:If no-one can confirm that that the first part of the sentence is supported by the sources. I propose to remove it. It can always be replaced once the sources have been read and it can be confirmed that they support the sentence. -- ] (]) 18:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
'''But this page is about the derogatory and pejorative term Denialism and not about the safety of GMOs and my objection has nothing to do with GMOs.''' | |||
:: Apart from the consensus above. I suggest ] be invoked here as well. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 18:57, 12 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
But if you could understand this, you would have also understood everything else I wrote but you didn’t, eventually blaming me for your inability to understand: “It is not our fault that you did not write clearly.” ] (]) 02:39, 22 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::{{tq|Do you know Aristarchus from Samos?}} I stopped reading right there because ] but only for improving the article. --] (]) 10:30, 22 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::You made it a chatroom by focusing your replies to other than improving the article matters. From your first reply already you accused me of being a denialist. | |||
:::My point was and still is, that Denialism is a derogatory term (and should be) and therefore must be used with caution. ] (]) 11:05, 22 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::{{tq|You made it a chatroom by focusing your replies to other than improving the article matters}} Untrue. | |||
::::{{tq|From your first reply already you accused me of being a denialist.}} Untrue. I pointed out that you use the same type of invalid reasoning as they do. | |||
::::{{tq|must be used with caution}} We already use it with caution. We do not conjure it up from nothing, we have RS for it. --] (]) 11:55, 22 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::Scientific consensus changes. Yup, but that's a truism. ] (]) 18:28, 22 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
==Nomination of article for deletion== | |||
Since the word "denialism" isn't a word in the New Oxford English Dictionary, and the term is not commonly used, I nominate the article for deletion. ] (]) 20:21, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
: This is an encyclopaedia, not a dictionary. Lots of concepts, labelled by words, appear in wikipedia and other encyclopaedias that are not in the dictionary. If you want to nominate it for deletion see how at ]. However, please discuss your reasoning here. If the above details all your objections then I don't think the nomination will succeed. The article meets ] and ], policies which define our inclusion criteria. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 20:27, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
:]. If you really want to ], feel free. Just don't expect it to work. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 20:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
::Well, after looking at some of the source articles, it seems that it is a concept which is used by some people and thus may make sense to have an article on. The only problem is that it seems to be used to try to dismiss anything that someone doesn't agree with. It is more of a word used as a weapon, rather than one for reasonable discourse. There is definitely a problem with mixing political POV in the article and description of the concept and I'm not sure that the two can easily be separated. | |||
::] (]) 21:38, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::Eh. That's a problem with ''any'' term that gets politicized. Hell, look at ]. Suffice to say, it '''can''' be used to dispariage, but that's not what the article's about. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 22:07, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::I think you mean ] in your link above, THTFY. ] (]) 22:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
:The new Oxford English Dictionary was published in 1989. The latest edition that I can find evidence for was published in 2001, and of course the material for it was collected before the publication date. Therefore the dictionary's record of the English language is a few years out of date. The fact that a word is not recorded in a dictionary is not evidence that the word does not exist. There is a popular but totally unfounded view that a dictionary somehow defines what words exist. On this view people may have been using a particular expression for years, but it is not a word, and so they have no right to use it, and then one day the publishers of a dictionary decide to include the expression, even though it is not a word; then overnight it becomes a word, and it becomes alright to use it. This makes no sense at all; all words are established ''before'' they are recorded in dictionaries. As for the claim that the word "is not commonly used", in my experience it is quite commonly used. My experience is supported by a Google search, which gives 991000 hits. ] (]) 12:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
::The online version of the OED is being updated all the time. I think it is important to mention in this article that this word in not yet in the major dictionaries. --] (]) 18:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::''The online version of the OED is being updated all the time'': OK, that makes the dates I gave irrelevant, but it does not alter my central point, which is that dictionaries record usage, and the fact that a dictionary has not recorded a usage does not devalue that usage. | |||
:::''I think it is important to mention in this article that this word in not yet in the major dictionaries'': Why? What has the presence or absence of a word in a dictionary got to do with anything at all in the article? Except for people who persist in the prescriptivist view that not being recorded in a dictionary makes a word somehow less valid, somehow "not really a word", I cannot see any earthly relevance. Dictionaries serve several purposes, including: finding the meaning of a word you don't understand; finding the most widely accepted pronunciation(s) of a word which you don't know how to pronounce; (some dictionaries) finding the etymology and history of a word which you don't know the history of. None of these is remotely relevant here, and I don't see any useful purpose that would be served by putting this in the article. Furthermore the article is about the ''concept'' of denialism, not about the ''word'' "denialism", so information about the ''word'' would be out of place. ] (]) 14:55, 30 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
The juxtaposition of {{tq|There is a scientific consensus that currently available food derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food }} with {{tq|Nonetheless, members of the public are much less likely than scientists to perceive GM foods as safe}} is not helpful. The former does not make it abundantly clear 1. whether we're talking about health risks directly caused by genetic modification, or ones resulting from industrial practices associated with GMO crops in general; or 2. whether "risk to human health" refers to safety or to something like nutrition. Similarly, the latter does not explain whether this perception is directed at the process of genetic modification itself, or at associated factors such as pesticide usage. Since the stack of sources looks so exhausting, I haven't yet been able to determine what the section is actually trying to say, but it's clear to me that the current wording is too vague, and it might be misleading. ] <small><code>]]</code></small> 09:38, 22 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." The trouble is that if a word is not in the major dictionaries or other definitive sources, one ends up through the looking glass, with the word meaning whatever an author wants it to mean, particularly if they do not define what they mean before they use it! --] (]) 15:13, 30 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
:The community already vetted that language thoroughly, and in that discussion, it was important to outline the dichotomy between just how misinformed the public is vs. the scientific consensus. Part of those statements are actually tied to pesticide use related to GMOs too, so it is supposed to be somewhat more encompassing in that last line. | |||
:::::That's true regardless of the word's presence or absence in a dictionary, really. Journalists and authors use the word 'denialism', giving it a meaning they've derived by reading and hearing other uses of it. If the OED added it would those authors start looking it up before using it to check they had the 'correct' meaning? Of course not, just as they don't stop to look up most words before using them. Words 'meaning whatever an author wants to mean' is how language ''works'', with native speakers basing their useage on what previous users have done. | |||
:That does get into a good point though that denialist groups in this subject have been groundshifting a bit in recent years. Instead of denying the consensus of the safety of GM food directly, they've been shifting to things like, "Oh no, we really meant pesticide use this whole time." while still spreading basically the . There's also a lot of misinformation that goes on in the periphery of GMOs because of that, usually the exact opposite of what scientists . Not really much for us to update on here though. ] (]) 15:24, 22 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::Anyway, we can discuss the role of dictionaries in shaping native speakers' language use as much as we want, but the contents of the article should still be based on reliable sources. As has been remarked before, if you can find reliable sources which say that the absence of the word from dictionaries is significant to the ''concept'' of denialism (which as James says is the topic of this article) then by all means let's mention it. If not, our own opinions on its significance are fairly unimportant. ] (]) 15:32, 30 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
::Still, as a reader, the text of the article does not have any of the clarity of the exposition given in your reply. But I am far less equipped to sort it out than you seem to be. ] <small><code>]]</code></small> 15:47, 22 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::I was reading ] translation of "Homer The Odyssey" and in chapter X Cire. In a footnote he quotes ]'s translation of a phrase "I ebb'd the bowl, but no effect it had" and mentions "This vigorous use of 'ebb' for 'drain' seems unrecorded in dictionaries" (p. 121 of my paperback edition). It seems to me that if this is acceptable in such a work it is also reasonable to note here that the word "Denialism" does not appear in the OED. -- ] (]) 12:43, 9 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
::It is one thing to deny science and another thing to be cautious. | |||
::GMO technology is not around long enough to establish itself as “safe in the long term”, both for the environment and human nutrition. If I had the choice to buy at the same price an organic food or GMO, I'd choose organic but not because I deny science. | |||
::I quote this from the article in Misplaced Pages (Genetically modified organism): ''”As late as the 1990s gene flow into wild populations '''was thought to be unlikely and rare''', and if it were to occur, easily eradicated. It was thought that this would add no additional environmental costs or risks – no effects were expected other than those already caused by pesticide applications. '''However, in the decades since, several such examples have been observed.'''”'' | |||
::I tried to make a point but obviously, I failed. | |||
::Denialism is a derogatory term and I don’t believe that people like me can be called denialists and for this reason, I’m requesting again that this example should be removed from an article that has nothing to do with GMOs but with the extremely negative stance in life to deny facts. ] (]) 17:50, 23 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
{{reflist-talk}} | |||
{{cob}} | |||
== Current example == | |||
{{hat|reason= ]. No Philip Baird Shearer, it is ''not'' "reasonable to note here that the word 'Denialism' does not appear in the OED" because that is ]. We need a ] source making this claim (such as Walter Shewring in the case of ]'s translation of ''The Odyssey'') to include it. This is clear policy. Live with it. In any case, the appropriate place to nominate an article for deletion is ], ''not'' here.}} | |||
] / ] / ] - Millennia of experimentation, sheafs of studies, but it gets shut down a lot by some Western (for example) cultures. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:26, 24 May 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
{{hab}} | |||
:This is not an example of denialism. If anything is scientifically verified & medically useful, it's just "medicine." — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 15:11, 5 January 2023 (UTC) | |||
<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:41, 10 October 2009</span><!-- Template:Unsigned2 --> | |||
:Herbalism is a mixture of genuine and bogus remedies. TCM is 90% junk that’s useless at best and dangerous at worst. Alternative medicine is a huge field that can range from genuinely helpful to outright deadly. “Millenia of experimentation” means nothing without the scientific method. There’s no connection between any of these to “denialism”. ] (]) 13:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Where is it clear in policy to state that a word in not in a dictionary? -- ] (]) 17:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
::@Dronebogus, exactly, as @HandthatFeeds said, it's just "medicine", I really don't think it's useful enough (IMHO), in fact it has absolutely no connection, unless they have connection, and we don't know regard it (Probably it's gonna take a while to reach in some consensus, anyway, gonna wait) ] (]) 19:42, 26 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
::: ] at least, as has been said many times. Please ], this horse has been dead for at least 4 months. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 17:54, 12 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
::From what I can gather from what you said, you basically meant that alternative medicine can be both helpful and dangerous, "de facto", it really depends on how it is used, if it is used on manners, Ok!, if it is not, it's totally dangerous for humankind, and with it, we see how good and not-good can walk each other, and how that's REALLY not good at all. ] (]) 19:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::It is no more OR to say a word is not in the OED than it is to say that it is in the OED. -- ] (]) 18:18, 12 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::: Well, we have an RS for it being in there, but as to it's not being in the OED being in any way worthy of note, well we need an RS for that. As you well know. I suggest ] is now used. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 18:56, 12 October 2009 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 14:27, 10 July 2024
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This article was nominated for deletion on 28 February 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
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Reference troubles and an underlying concern
As far as I can tell, Reference 1 is a newspaper book review of Reference 19, which is itself a journalist's account. Therefore, this article does not actually appear to cite any standard "psychological" definition of denialism (I have searched in vain for such a thing). While there are clearly an array of examples of organized prevarication and/or overeager, self-serving credulity that can be gathered under some generic heading, how do we proceed if "denialism" is effectively a pseudoscientific claim in itself, or just a popular meme, rather than a formally documented, diagnosable behavior or tendency? If one follows the chain of references far enough, most of the concept is ultimately based on blog posts by the brothers Hoofnagle (e.g., Refs 12 and 34), each of whom has impressive credentials —— just not in psychology or sociology, as might be expected. Alas, some of them even loop back to this Misplaced Pages article. Anekeia (talk) 01:39, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
"Deny, deny, deny" (defense strategy, politics)
Denial as a political and defense strategy is both IRL widespread and non properly covered on Misplaced Pages ifaik. Trump, but also Biden, Macron, Putin, all use it to spread doubt event when solid observables (=facts) are presented. The communicative, political, strategic side of denial deserves better coverage. Yug (talk) 🐲 11:26, 29 September 2021 (UTC) (Note: I keep this article creation in mind for myself as well but I'am already loaded with other articles)
- Yug This article has added a paragraph about the electoral conspiracy. The U.S. political movement driven by that conspiracy is described in Election denial movement in the United States. But it's a conspiracy that has a long history in global elections. rootsmusic (talk) 16:35, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Genetically Modified Food controversies more genuinely controversial than presented here
User:Entropy1963 has made it clear by their last comment that they’re dragging this out because they’re personally offended. Per, WP:BLUDGEON and WP:SEALION, I don’t see any point in letting this keep going. If there’s unrelated disputes here that need to be addressed, please consider starting a new discussion Dronebogus (talk) 18:23, 23 June 2023 (UTC) |
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Food, agriculture related ecology and dietary health are more complex topics than the suggestion in this article that opposition to GMOs is denialist implies. Evidence of recent findings concerning the impact of varied diet on human microbiome diversity and consequent health outcomes implies an emergent and relevant area of knowledge. GMO cropping systems seem likely to come under this developing area of scientific scrutiny. Application of the precautionary principle until more is known can't impartially be described as 'denialist'. Some of this food impacted gut biome emerging research is linked here: The article on Genetically Modified Food Controversies: <ref> https://en.wikipedia.org/Genetically_modified_food_controversies <ref> seems more impartial. Therefore, this section of the denialism article doesn't appear to belong here, as if it remains, inclusion will reasonably be considered controversial until a wider consensus can be achieved. Unless a persuasive argument for keeping this section appears in response, I will attempt removal of this section. Copsewood (talk) 11:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Respond to Hob Gadling: Do you know Aristarchus from Samos? If not serch Misplaced Pages to find out. He was claiming some two and a half thousand years ago that the earth goes around the sun but his argument was buried for millennia because there was “scientific consensus” (let alone “obvious” observation) that the sun goes around the earth. Do you know Clair Cameron Patterson? If not search Misplaced Pages to find out. By reading about him, you may also understand how perspectives which support huge organisations can achieve “scientific consensus” status. But you will accuse me again of “whataboutism” failing to understand that this page is about Denialism and not the safety of GMOs. On a planet where the human population skyrockets, GMOs will be the only solution to starvation, as was the case with the “Haber process” for the production of ammonia. But this page is about the derogatory and pejorative term Denialism and not about the safety of GMOs and my objection has nothing to do with GMOs. But if you could understand this, you would have also understood everything else I wrote but you didn’t, eventually blaming me for your inability to understand: “It is not our fault that you did not write clearly.” Entropy1963 (talk) 02:39, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
The juxtaposition of
References |
Current example
Herbalism / Traditional Chinese medicine / alternative medicine - Millennia of experimentation, sheafs of studies, but it gets shut down a lot by some Western (for example) cultures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.58.19.167 (talk) 04:26, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
- This is not an example of denialism. If anything is scientifically verified & medically useful, it's just "medicine." — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:11, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- Herbalism is a mixture of genuine and bogus remedies. TCM is 90% junk that’s useless at best and dangerous at worst. Alternative medicine is a huge field that can range from genuinely helpful to outright deadly. “Millenia of experimentation” means nothing without the scientific method. There’s no connection between any of these to “denialism”. Dronebogus (talk) 13:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Dronebogus, exactly, as @HandthatFeeds said, it's just "medicine", I really don't think it's useful enough (IMHO), in fact it has absolutely no connection, unless they have connection, and we don't know regard it (Probably it's gonna take a while to reach in some consensus, anyway, gonna wait) 177.105.90.20 (talk) 19:42, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- From what I can gather from what you said, you basically meant that alternative medicine can be both helpful and dangerous, "de facto", it really depends on how it is used, if it is used on manners, Ok!, if it is not, it's totally dangerous for humankind, and with it, we see how good and not-good can walk each other, and how that's REALLY not good at all. 177.105.90.20 (talk) 19:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
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