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	As this page concerns INCIDENTS:U
			== Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from ] ==
	Place the PAGENAME of the incident in the header.
			], a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use <nowiki>{{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~</nowiki> on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --] (]) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics ( and ), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is , again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute.
			::Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --] (]) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally and , despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, . I asked him to , but .
			::::I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already , the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please.] ] 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. ] ] 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::And here's explicit transphobia. It's her '''daughter''', no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	Otherwise, if the notice is about the actions of an individual across several pages, then place the USERNAME of the individual in the header.
			*:*'''Comment''' I would suggest Darwin review ]. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. ] (]) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	----------------------------------------------------------
			*:*:@] I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? ] ] 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	Do not place links in the section headers.
			*:*::@], the bottom line is that ''you don't get to question that.'' As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is '''not''' the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them ''any'' good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. ] (]) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	(Immediately UNDER the header is preferred).
			*:*:::I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. ] ] 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
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			*:*::::We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this ] (]) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	Entries may be refactored based on the above.
			*:*:The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read ]' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
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			*:*::I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. ] (]) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
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			*:*:::Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. ] ] 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	-->
			*:*::::Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including ]) - otherwise you will be blocked. ]] 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. ] ] 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here.
			*:*::::::Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there.
			*:*::::::And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the ] area.] (]) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::I would suggest a '''topic ban''' is imposed. ]] 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::I would '''support''' a topic ban from ]. ] (]) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. ] (]) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. ]] 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? ] ] 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::::Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. ]] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::::You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. ] ] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::@] nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. ] ] 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. ] (]) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. ] ] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::::You fundementally misunderstand the scope of ] and the concept of topic area as well. ] (]) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::::Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. ] ] 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::::::I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. ] (]) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::::::it was a collective you. ] ] 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::::::::The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. ] (]) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. ] (]) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::None of this is relevant. We follow sources and ]. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. ]] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I've continued to post where? ] ] 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? ] ] 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? ]] 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::@] The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have ], and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -] (]) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. ] ] 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -] (]) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? ] ] 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::@] This one. -] (]) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::@] I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. ] ] 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::@] Easiest way to defuse this is to post a '''bolded''' and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -] (]) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" ] ] 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. ]] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			* Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? ] (]) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. ] ] 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? ] (]) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. ] ] 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? ] (]) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 ] ] 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. ] (]) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. ] ] 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around ] (]) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::@] no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? ] ] 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::Because of edits like this . ] (]) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? ] ] 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? ] (]) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::::Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? ] ] 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::::We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. ] (]) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::::::I ''answered'' a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. ] ] 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::::::Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. ] (]) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::::::::I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. ] ] 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::::::::In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. ] (]) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. ] (]) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	== Continual re-creation of deleted article about 'Team Touchdown' ==
			:Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway.] ] 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	{{archivetop}}
			:I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it.]] 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	I'm not sure if this is the correct place to put this - if it's not, I apologise.
			::@] I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. ] ] 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary ], broadly construed, as in effect.]] 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::@] yes, that's correct. ] ] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			* I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about ] in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? ] ] 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::@] You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me ''in the English Misplaced Pages?'' ] ] 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::@] Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? ] ] 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			Would recommend that Darwin ''walk away'' from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. ] (]) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	A group of editors have been trying to re-create the same article, all about a non-notable group/club in NSW, Wales.
			;Clarification
	The deletion log entries are as follows:
			*Hello @] - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in ], to the point of eventually here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much.
			*As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ], which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that.
			*The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here.
			*Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on ] and ] or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan.
			*And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. ] ] 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			===Proposed Community Sanctions===
	* 13:18, 16 November 2009 ] (] | ]) deleted "]" ‎ (A7: No indication that the article may meet guidelines for inclusion)
			I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this.
	* 10:24, 17 November 2009 ] (] | ]) deleted "]" ‎ (A7: No indication that the article may meet guidelines for inclusion)
	* 10:40, 18 November 2009 ] (] | ]) deleted "]" ‎ (A7: No indication that the article may meet guidelines for inclusion: ])
	* 05:17, 19 November 2009 ] (] | ]) deleted "]" ‎ (A7: No indication that the article may meet guidelines for inclusion)
	* 05:44, 19 November 2009 ] (] | ]) deleted "]" ‎ (A3: Article that has no meaningful, substantive content)
	* 07:27, 19 November 2009 ] (] | ]) deleted "]" ‎ (A7: Article about a group or club, which does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject)
	* 07:28, 19 November 2009 ] (] | ]) deleted "]" ‎ (A7: No indication that the article may meet guidelines for inclusion)
	* 19:36, 19 November 2009 ] (] | ]) deleted "]" ‎ (A7: Article about a group or club, which does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject)
			'''Proposed''' DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to ] broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	The editors involved include:
	* ] (], ])
	:* Blocked: 09:26, 19 November 2009 ] (] | ]) blocked ] (], ]) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 48 hours ‎ (])
	* ] (], ])
	* ] (], ])
			*'''Support''' -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	One of the variations is already protected from creation:
			*:I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -] (]) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	* (Protection log); 10:41 ] (] | ]) protected ] (expires 10:41, 18 November 2010 (UTC)) (repeated recreation)
			*'''Oppose''' - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. ''PS'' - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. ] (]) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support topic ban and IBAN''', both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. ]] 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. Just read through the above and ''good grief''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. ] (]) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. ] (]) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	Is it possible to SALT using a regexp?<br/>
			:::That's actually a fair point. -] (]) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	Something like <code><nowiki>T*</nowiki></code>
			::::It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent ] impulse. ] (]) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::@] You have been misjudging me - It was , actually, if it's worth anything. ] ] 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the ] area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::@] OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). ] ] 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::If they weren't before they are now... ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Ok, to be clear, I '''oppose''' a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. ] (]) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I agree. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:@] I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. ] ] 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. ] (]) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::@] And those were the only ones, and I immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to . You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. ] ] 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::@] I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? ] ] 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. ] (]) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::@] I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽‍♂️ ] ] 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? ] (]) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::@] Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? ] ] 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. ] (]) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::@] There was not any "lie", please stop ]. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". ] ] 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. ] (]) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::Darwin has a long history of editing in ] albeit generally less controversially. . ] (]) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::@] That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. ] ] 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::::DarwIn ] covers gender ''and'' sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. ] (]) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::::@] Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. ] ] 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' per Bushranger. ] ] 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose'''. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. ] (]) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose''' per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. ] ] 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::{{Ping|Pppery}} days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. ] (]) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. ] (]) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:@] What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? ] ] 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::{{replyto|DarwIn}} Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times ], ], ], ], ], ]. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. ] (]) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like ]. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here.] ] 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. ] (]) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. ] ] 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::], I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup>
			*:::::::{{Ping|Liz}} Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that.] ] 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::{{reply|DarwIn}} you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. ] (]) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. ] (]) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:* '''Support''' - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it.
			:]] 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:* '''Oppose''' - Per GoodDay and Springee. ] (]) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> <small>(he/him; ])</small></span> 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.] (]) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of ] may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer ]. ] (]) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			* <s>'''Support''' TBAN/IBAN</s> '''Weak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN''' - ] suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate ] behavior. ] (]) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
	I doubt that they are going to stop trying to recreate the article, as they have been so persistent so far!
			::This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.] (]) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. ] (]) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--] (]) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. ] (]) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::"A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. ]] 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. ] (]) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. ]] 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::OK boomer. ] (]) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. ]] 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.] (]) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP ] - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. ] (]) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. ] (]) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::{{ec}} NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of ], and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -] (]) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN.
			:::sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. ] (]) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. ] (]) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour ''there would be no mention of WP:NPA''. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture ''continues'' to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. ] (]) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:* '''Oppose''' as unnecessary given the commitments already given. ]] 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{hat|1=Let's not. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). <small>Edited to include edit conflict comment. ] (]) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC)</small>}}
			::::I am assuming you haven't spent much time in places ] where religious belief and persons of faith are not infrequently and quite openly subject to ridicule. Racism is a subject upon which society has happily come to more or less full agreement. Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other. I shall refrain from further comment out of deference to WP:FORUM. -] (]) 21:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Fringe ideas get ridiculed at FTN regardless of whether or not they are religious... That so many fringe views are also religious is more a result of the supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual being inherently fringe than any problem with FTN. Religion which is rational and explainable isn't religion any more after all. ] (]) 21:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Thank you for affirming my point. -] (]) 21:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Your point was that "Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other." Right? Like for example the ] or is that not the side you were thinking of? ] (]) 22:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::No. I was thinking of people who regularly insult and ridicule religious belief and those who hold to it. Something which based on your comment, does not seem to be a source of concern to you. That said, this discussion is veering deep into WP:FORUM territory and I am going to move on. Have a good day. -] (]) 22:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::I don't think I've ever seen any of those people suggest that trans people are demons, or did you mean demonize in a way other than literally saying that the other side is demonic/satan's minions? Becuase that would be highly ironic... ] (]) 22:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::I am reaching the uncomfortable conclusion that you are attempting to be deliberately offensive. And for the record, you are succeeding. Good day. -] (]) 22:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::You weren't aware that a cornerstone of the gender controversy was religious conservatives resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other? Because that is well documented in reliable sources. I don't think you're the one who is supposed to be offended here, you're the one saying what appear to be extremely offensive things and are being asked to clarify what you meant. ] (]) 22:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::{{ec}} I think a significant point here is that while we may tolerate some degree of forumish and offensive comment about gender or race or religions from editors when they are restricted to largely abstract comment or even when they reference other editors, it's far more of a problem when the editors make offensive accusations about living persons especially when these are completely unrelated to any discussion about how to cover something (noting that the editor continued to make the comment even after they had noted how the English wikipedia treats issues). So for example, if someone says a specific religious figure is delusion or lying in relation to how we treat their testimony that might barely be acceptable. When someone just comes out and says it repeatedly for no reason, that's far more of a problem. Especially if the figure is someone barely notable and not notable (as was the case here for one of the individuals each). ] (]) 22:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{hab}}
			{{hat|1=This ''is'' affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			*'''Comment''' This is definitely not the ideal place to discuss the subject since the whole problem originated with pt.wiki, but since the editor came here asking for help (for the right reasons or not), I will draw attention to the case of the admin accused of transphobia. This is not the first time that DarwIn has been singled out due to his comments on the subject (he has already given several examples of this here), but there is an where the editor has already been criticized for making such comments. There, they were also celebrating Skyshifter's ban (DarwIn commented something like "as a man he was 100%, after transitioning he became unbearable" to refer to her). As much as they try not to link the group to the project, to use this chat you need to associate your Misplaced Pages credentials, so I am concerned that pt.wiki admins could be seen spreading speeches against minorities in an official space of the project, since Misplaced Pages is the target of attacks for investing in equity and diversity. In addition to this comment, the admin was also extremely rude and crude towards a ].
			:Again, this is not the ideal place to comment on these issues, but I suggest that the case be submitted to Wikimedia if any intervention or something more incisive is necessary. The local community can accuse me of anything for writing these words, but I am concerned about the escalation of editorial harassment within that space.
	Regards, -- ''']''' (], ]) 22:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
	*This ] too for a little background. Users were editing a disambiguation page and adding their soccer club info repeatedly.. - ] (]) 22:16, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Note''' All three of the above editors have been notified of this thread, included the one who is currently blocked -- ''']''' (], ]) 22:22, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
	I had nuked another variant (same regex):
	* 09:25, 19 November 2009 ] (] | ]) deleted "]" ‎ (recreation of unreferenced article about non-notable subject that has previously been deleted after AfD)
	* 09:06, 19 November 2009 ] (] | ]) deleted "]" ‎ (G4: Recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion: ])
	Their repeated recreation after salting of previous spelling (after *its* AfD and then recreation) and associated cloning at ] is what led me to block ]. ] (]) 22:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
			:PS: The editor was mocking this discussion in the Telegram group while I was writing this. ] (]) 01:57, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	** Further to 4twenty42o's link, 2 more editors need to be added to the list:
			::Came back after a month with no edits for this? It's quite clear Jardel is taking something personal with DarwIn here. Or he doesn't have anything to do at the moment. And he didn't have such great writing and narrative in his mother tongue, now is writing perfect, well written English. That gets stranger considering he's partially blocked in ptwiki for some beefing with other editors (] in portuguese)... Quite strange, to say the least. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	::* ] (], ])
			:::And yes, by "quite strange" I am talking about maybe ]. Nobody comes after a month without edits (that was preeceded by some other months before some 5-ish edits), to make an "accusation" based on unfounded arguments, especially after being blocked precisely for beefing and attacking other members of the community in his homewiki. Such a hypocrisy, a user banned for beefing accusating another user of attacks and using the word "transphobia" so vaguely. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	::* 144.131.87.72 (], ])
			::::As I expected, the group participants started making accusations against me (that's why Eduardo G. appeared in this discussion) and wanted to insinuate that Skyshifter is writing this text, perhaps wanting to provoke some kind of retaliation later. First, I appreciate the compliments on my writing, which was 100% done by Google Translate; I think Google's engineering is to be congratulated. Second, I'm only here on this page because I noticed the links to this discussion in the Telegram group itself and decided to contribute with what I've been reading for a long time with great disgust. I didn't need to bring much, Darwin himself made a point of making abject comments in this discussion, but if you want, I can bring some screenshots of what they were talking about in the group. Third, I did go 1 month without editing here because my focus is not on en.wiki but on pt.wiki, where I make regular edits. I find it strange that you entered this discussion without refuting any of the arguments above, thinking that bringing up my tarnished "reputation" changes everything that was written by me or in the group. I believe it must be embarrassing to participate in a group where they are celebrating the sanctions that Skyshifter will suffer (thinking that place is a "private club") while at the same time you from the "public side" to the same editor, simulating virtue. In any case, my goal here is only to reinforce that there is indeed materiality in what Skyshifter said with more evidence and once again I recommend that the discussion be evaluated by the Wikimedia team knowing that attitudes that demonstrate prejudice against minorities go against the project's investments in equity, diversity and equality. ] (]) 03:52, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I will not pursue any retaliation. I'm just stating what I know of this case, and I even supported Sky when the edits were being made. People are celebrating because all of this discussion was brought to even another wiki by her. But I understand you might've written this text, and will not take the subject further. If anybody needs anything, please read the message below. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::So, I don't disagree with your argument about the sanctions she's passing on the other project, unfortunately. As for "not pursue any retaliation", I don't think that's what you mean by the phrase "4 successful DBs in a row is not for everyone." directed at me. ] (]) 04:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::@] You're wrong, twice. First, it wasn't me saying that. It was NCC-1701, and my user in TG is Edu. And at no point did I agree with NCC's messages. And secondly, the "four DBs in a row" wasn't in anyway directed at you. It was directed to Bageense, who opened 4 block discussions in the last 2 or 3 days and all of them were successfull. You are distorting the messages to condone your erroneous narrative. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Well, if I am "distorting messages" to "tolerate" my narrative, anyone who wants to evaluate can join the group and read the messages posted there or see the pt.wiki discussion against the Projeto Mais Teoria da História na Wiki and talk to its ] to see what their opinion is on the matter. I may not be a perfect person, but what I see with great displeasure (coming from those who are "in charge of the gears") is not positive for the project. ] (]) 04:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Joining the group the community would then have no doubts about your intents and distortion of facts. You didn't deny the two things I said above — you know I'm right, you can't bend the facts this much. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			'''As a ptwiki user''' that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage ()/], thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the ] <small>(in portuguese)</small>. The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it.
	*: I have left ANI notices on both of these editor's talk pages -- ''']''' (], ]) 22:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
			This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone.
	*(E/C) {{user|PimpdaddyMcPhee}} (blocked), {{user|Insertnamehere10}}, {{ipuser|124.149.98.97}}, {{ipuser|121.218.220.162}} are also involved in this fiasco. ''']''' <small>]</small> 22:43, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
	::I have left messages on the talk pages of all except the first, which was indeffed. ''']''' <small>]</small> 22:49, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
	*There is also ], which I have deleted and salted, from user {{user1|Team Touchdown}}, for whom I planned a username block if he tried it again; he <s>has</s> had the article on his userpage. See also ]. I think we just continue to delete, salt, and block: they are under-14s, they'll get bored in a day or two. ] (]) 22:44, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
	:*'''Comment''': ] ] (]) 23:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
	::Not sure how much good that will do; I suspect these are meatpuppets, not socks. IIRC, Team Touchdown is a ] football group; this is probably a bunch of guys trying to get their little club on WP. ]''']''' 23:48, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
	*Another oddity: {{user|Insertnamehere10}} was created by {{user|Horse96}}, an account with no edits. Horse96's only activity was creating Insertnamehere10, four minutes after creating the original account. The similarity of the name to {{user|Horse M}} caught my eye, as did the similarity of {{user|Special Operations}} and {{user|Deanops}}. ''']''' <small>]</small> 23:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
	:*{{ec}} {{user|Millsy360}} vandalised my talk page 3 times in quick succession: , and . In between the last two, another editor came out of nowhere (only made one edit since creatign account): {{user|Bam.bam0406}} . Bam.bam0406 has made no other edits, but I'm guessing it's another sock - the co-incidence is too high! MajorMinorMark, do you want to add those two to the SPI? -- ''']''' (], ]) 02:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
	*'''One more sock''' ] just found that one on the touchdown jesus article posting the same club crap on a disambig page ] and vandalizing a user page ]. - ] (]) 02:00, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
	:*Semi-protected ] for a day, to prevent the socks from continuing there. ]''']''' 02:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
			I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my ] (). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*Another sock ]. On a vandalism spree. ] (]) 04:10, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
	*And another ]. ] (]) 04:25, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
	*Beat me to it but now the user is adding creating ] and adding the club stats to the ] article. - ] (]) 04:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
	*], has jumped out of the sock drawer.--''''']''''' ] 05:15, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
	**BananaMcFats, Jumpinpimp, Angrytown all indef'ed, and added to SPI page. ] (]) 05:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
			JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community . And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. ] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	* {{confirmed}} - a whole bunch of accounts at the SPI case ] - ] <sup>]</sup> 06:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
			:It is pretty clear thay the intents of Jardel here are disruptive. Your comment hopefully leaves no doubt to the community. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:53, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:As I said above, I am not a perfect person. I may have used foul language to address some editors in a moment of anger, but I felt vulnerable and hurt by editors I held in high regard, and I apologize for what I wrote in the past. Likewise, I do not think it is right that a social channel that is reported as "linked to Misplaced Pages" is being used as a bar where people can say whatever they want, especially when it comes to prejudiced comments against minorities. At no time did I label all of them, only one of them demonstrated that she was doing so. If I happen to receive any sanction for this discussion, and knowing that bringing issues from pt.wiki here is not ideal, I will receive it for doing the right thing, because I want something to change for the better in a project that I have dedicated so much time to contributing to. I may be prevented from editing on Misplaced Pages, but if what I bring here helps to change something, I will be happy. ] (]) 05:01, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{hab}}
			:] - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? ]&nbsp;] 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. ] (]) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::@] The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, . Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. ] (]) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. ] (]) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Supporting both IBAN and TBAN'''. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--] ] 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. ] (]) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.] (]) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. ] (]) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.] (]) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain.
			:::::concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.] (]) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.] (]) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. ] (]) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Children cannot consent, their parents can. ]&nbsp;]<sup>]</sup> 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--] (]) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? ] (]) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--] (]) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. ] (]) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support TBAN''', no comment on IBAN. . ]&nbsp;]<sup>]</sup> 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- ] - <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose any sanctions''' I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate ] on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. ] (]) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support TBAN''', indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this ] type editing, whether it is attempting to ] or simply ] discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. ] (]) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. ] (]) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' ''Skyshifter'', if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to descelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. ''']]''' 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite () to boot. ] (]) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY.
			:<br>
			:Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am.
			:<br>
			:Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages.
			:<br>
			:'''I support''' the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community.
			:<br>
			:'''I oppose''' with the IP-ban because if anything this '''SHOULD’VE''' ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing.
			:<br> ] (]) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. ] (]) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents.
			:::NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent.
			:::Cheers, <br> ] (]) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::This reply reminded me of the essay ]. ] (]) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. ] (]) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. ] (]) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at ] accusing me of coming to their talk page to "{{tq|further troll me with this nonsense warning}}". '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --] (]) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' both. To make sure I haven't lost my goddamn mind, I read this discussion '''''twice'''''. I personally believe Darwin is in the wrong here. His behavior on enwiki violates both GENSEX and BLP sanctions (), and he doubled down when he had the chance to defend himself (] and comments above). Even if we play devil's advocate and assume Darwin's claims about Sky being a troll/vandal and sockmaster (which is a heavy accusation to make) on ptwiki are true, her work on enwiki has shown that she's changed for the better. This is coming from a person who has interacted with Sky a couple of times (], ], ]); she is an amazing editor on here. For the sake of everyone involved and to avoid another mess like this, the sanctions above should be enforced. 💽 ] 💽 🌹 ⚧ <sup>(''']''')</sup> 08:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== ] taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge. ===
	* They're back...
			{{hat|1=100% affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	:{{lu|Monochrome Scope}}
			{{atop|result=This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this ]s on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}}
	:...and blocked. ] (]) 08:22, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
			On the 29th of December, ] started an AN/I based on a claim that ], a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination . AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate.
			She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn.
	*Though the duration of the lock may be effective enough for now, it will not be as effective hereafter, as when ever the lock is then removed, anyone will be able to recreate the article. An indefinite lock is effective and should be done to prevent any future recreations such as this. If only I had the power to block those responsible for the recreations....--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 05:15, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
			But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log.
	{{archivebottom}}
	<small>(section did not archive automatically, so timestamp added. ] (]) 07:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC))</small>
			This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage ( and in ]), ] over other users and using ] and ] to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it ], with all the proofs). The ] taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever.
	== Gibraltar ==
			Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was '''personal''' and for '''revenge'''. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under ], here called ] I think, and ]/], and in the AN/I above she's commiting ], repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment.
	Can someone take a look at ] for some time we have had Spanish editors trying to make the article 'more Spanish' involving long discussions which are currently stalling in informal mediation;
			<span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	Today we have a repeated attempt to include a long list of allegedly notable Spanish people under the heading who are most certainly NOT ], as these are by definition British Citizens.
			:{{replyto|Eduardo_Gottert}} You need to provide evidence when opening an ANI thread, not on request. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*
			::'@] The evidences are above. I said if you need any '''further''' evidence, you may ask. All of the necessary evidence are on the request. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Where's the evidence? What we know is that DarwIn came here despite little involvement and made a highly offensive statement that can reasonably be characterised as transphobic. While I don't feel Sky Shifter should have described it so, better to let others decide, it was entirely reasonable for Sky Shifter to call for action against DarwIn for it. What is your evidence that they did it for revenge instead of for the fact that after a disagreement with DarwIn in a different wiki, DarwIn suddenly appeared in this wiki, one they themselves agree they barely edit, to make a highly offensive statement that Sky Shifter reasonably felt was transphobic. After doing so, they then appeared on ANI to make similar highly offensive statements were they made offensive accusations against living based on their own opinion. ] (]) 06:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Honestly, the argument is pretty clear above. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::If you agree you're wrong then please withdraw this ANI. ] (]) 06:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I did not agree in any place that I am wrong. I just stated that the evidence is pretty clear above, with all the block discussions and diffs needed for understanding the problem. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Your statement was very unclear. You said "the argument" which I interpreted to mean my argument. If you're still claiming your argument is clear, then please explain how it can be when part of your argument is it was unfair for Sky Shifter to go around saying "transphobia" when many of us agree that even if it was unnecessary, it was not unsupported given the comments DarwIn was making do seem to be transphobic. ] (]) 06:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::As we were talking about my evidence, I think saying "the argument" clearly refer to me. And as to the reason for the opening of this ANI, it's because the revenge seeking of Skyshifter. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::I wouldn't say it doesn't considering as I said, one of the reasons your argument was flawed, but you didn't address that in any way. Nothing you've said above or since has explained why you're claiming Sky Shifter using the word "transphobic" is evidence for "revenge" when it's a reasonable characterisation of what DarwIn said. ] (]) 06:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::{{ec}} I would add it's very unclear what you thinking you're adding that wasn't already considered above. In the above thread a 1 way iban on DarwIn seems to be getting serious consideration. A two way iban seems to have been rejected based on the assessment that whatever the wrongs with Sky Shifter's approach, it wasn't serious enough to warrant an iban. The fact that Sky Shifter was in a dispute with DarwIn on other wikis, and DarwIn was involved in their blocked is likewise not a secret, part of it was stated by Sky Shifter when opening the thread and the rest was stated by DarwIn. The sock allegation likewise. So what do you think you're adding to the discussion that wasn't already considered and seemingly rejected by the community above? ] (]) 06:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:It is time for a ]. You already said all of that above. You seem to have been canvassed here from a discussion outside of this wiki. Go back there and let them know cross wiki harassment will get you blocked here. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I added more evidence and context. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::You simply cast aspersions as part of a cross wiki harassment campaign against someone over transgender related issues. You are not here to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 06:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Your statement doesn't even make sense. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::We can add ] to the reasons you are blocked then. ] (]) 06:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Am I? And where am I in violation of ]? <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I used plain English and you said you couldn't comprehend it. ] (]) 06:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:I thought it was pretty well determined in that prior ANI thread that DarwIn's edits and statements absolutely were transphobic and bigoted. ]]<sup>]</sup> 06:07, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*
			::The reason for the AN/I opens is still the same, revenge. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*I've read many of the posts on the Portuguese wiki, and it is pretty clear that the Skyshifter's complaint above is a deliberate expansion of drama from there. The Portugese wiki is not Uganda, people do not get banned there for being Trans, and former admins don't get banned without causing a lot of disruption. It is clear these two users really strongly dislike each other and need to stop interacting in any way.--] (]) 06:59, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:People obviously doesn't get banned for being trans. She was sysop there, commited some errors, but stayed there even after 5 months of being on estrogen. And the community knew it. What caused her block there was calling the project a sewage and then outbreaking and attacking other users. I suggest they get a two-way IBAN, at least, not the one-way as proposed on the other AN/I. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:I would add that unless I'm missing something, the block discussion on the Portugese Misplaced Pages seems to have been started about 30 minutes before the ANI thread . It has no contributions by DarwIn . It is theoretically possible I guess it somehow factored into the motivation of Skyshifter opening the ANI thread, but this seems extremely unlikely. There's a good chance Skyshifter wasn't even aware of it when opening the thread. In other words, there's no reason to think Skyshifter was even aware they were likely going to be permanently blocked from pt at the time of opening the thread although they did say they weren't going to return. ] (]) 07:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*
			::She opened an NI, ptwiki equivalent of AN/I against DarwIn with crazy arguments. You can see it ]. It was prompty closed, and she was very well aware of the consequences she would face, and of the opening of the block discussion, and clearly opened the AN/I because of that reason. The block discussion started at 1130 UTC, and the AN/I was posted at 1300, at a time that Skyshifter had already taken notice of the discussion, as you can see . <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*This is ''very blatantly'' a tit-for-tat. As mentioned above there is the distinct smell of fishiness about it, and {{tqq|as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log}} - yes, the editor who has ''three FAs'' on en.wiki "came to this project" to do this. Suggest this be promptly closed as I hear a ] inbound. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	The editor responsible for this is user:Ecemaml who has previously been blocked for misbehaviour on Gibraltar related issues. User:Cremallera may be a sock of his - can someone check this.
			*:I am not saying she isn't an avid used of English wiki. I just stated that she took ptwiki matters here for revenge and self-fullfillment. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::If you aren't asking for any sanctions against Skyshifter, then why did you open this sub-section, just to sling some mud at her? Give it a rest already, you're just creating more drama than is necessary.]] 08:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I think that the background of this dispute is very relevant. Obviously, neither Skyshifter or Darwin should face any repercussions here for behaviour on pt.wiki, but it isn't possible to understand what is happening here without discussing what happened there. For me, having read what happened over there is the main reason I wouldn't yet TBAN Darwin, and would call for a two-way rather than one way interaction ban.--] (]) 08:50, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			{{hab}}
			==Incivility and ABF in contentious topics==
	This looks very much like an attempt to start an edit war. --] (]) 01:04, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
	:I'm involved in trying to help mediate the disputes at Gibraltar. As I'm involved in the mediation and I've been an admin for less than a week I hesitate to use any tools but I've been watching over the situation. The only person who has violated 3RR at this point is ], but he that he is taking a 2 day Wikibreak so I don't think there's any point in a block. Anyone who wants to help out and intervene, however, is more than welcome, as the heat on this article (and ]) seems to be rising. -- ''']'''] 02:02, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
			]'s uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it ''is'' problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:
	::Although you are doing a good job in trying to mediate in the ] article, it looks like there is an orchestrated attempt to disrupt that and other articles on Gibraltar and set up Justin and myself. Its very unproductive but frankly typical of the sort of harassment tactic continually used by the Spanish Government against Gibraltar. --] (]) 07:58, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
			Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.
	:::I've fully-protected <s>the article</s> both articles for one week while mediation is ongoing; it might take the heat out of the situation if editors can discuss things without needing to worry about what others are doing on the article. FWIW, I see no immediate reason to think that Cremallera and Ecemamlare are sock accounts, although an ] might be helpful to settle that. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:55, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883
	:::: Bad move. ] (]) 11:59, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
			WP:NPA
	:::::Why? ]<sup>]</sup> 12:01, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324
	:::::: Well what if some other serious editors who are not involved in this dispute want to make some good edits? ] (]) 12:18, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
			Profanity
	:::::::{{tl|editprotected}}... I hope you don't mind me asking, but you're not a new editor. Is this a serious objection to what you must be aware is standard procedure in hot content disputes? Your userpage notes that you retired a couple of days ago; I can't avoid the impression that either you're making some kind of ], the reason for which is lost on me, or I'm being trolled. ]<sup>]</sup> 13:01, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::: Trolled!? I simply wasn't aware it's a standard procedure. ] (]) 14:17, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966
	:::::::::OK, no worries :) I just thought it was a strange objection. I apologise for misconstruing your post. ]<sup>]</sup> 14:25, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
			Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor
	::::::::Hi. So now pointless personal attacks, Spanish bashing, attributing "orchestrated disruptive intentions" to other editors, unfounded accusations of sockpuppetry and vilifying the Spanish Government is considered fair play in the Administrators' noticeboard? Still can't believe it. PS: actually, protecting the articles isn't a bad move given the current climate, in my opinion of course.] (]) 14:05, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877
	:::::::::I'm happy with protecting the articles. The contentious edits refer to events 300 years ago so there is no urgency. --] (]) 20:12, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
			Unicivil
	Hi, this is Ecemaml, the man who seems to have shot ]. Well, I see this is not the place to discuss on the content of the blocked article, but I'd like to make it clear some of the accusations I've received:
	* I've done an only semi-reversion (explaining , dropping one of the persons in the list and including references to justify notability in those who didn't have an article yet). BTW, the edition summary in the I had created was as explanatory and related to the Misplaced Pages policies as "ridiculous entry". No further information was provided in the talk page (I'm supposedly the disruptive editor).
	* Examples of those that are not deemed as notable are ] (just created).
	* There are solid explanations to my editions in the ]. You can agree or not with them, but my editions are far from being arbitrary. To sum up, I argue that, as long as there is an only article for Gibraltar (that is, there is no article for the town of Gibraltar and other for the British territory of Gibraltar, much in the like of ] and the ]), it's valid to include in a section named "Notable people from Gibraltar" any notable person from Gibraltar from whatever period, either Roman, Visigoth, Vandal, Moor, Spanish or British. If a list on "Notable Gibraltarians" is wished, its place should be ]. Moreover, from the 13 people currently listed in the section, only 4 or 5 may qualify as Gibraltarian (the rest being British subjects accidentally born in Gibraltar as their parents were military garrisoned in Gibraltar, none of them known to have asked for "Gibraltarian nationality", quite sensible since they're are full British people.
	* An odd sign of what's going on can be seen . It seems as if any person in the phone directory in Gibraltar is more notable than any Spanish person born in Gibraltar.
	That's all, I'll wait until next December 3, although given the long quarrel in the talk page, the section we're talking about should carry an obvious {{tl|NPOV}}.
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027
	On the other hand, may I ask you which further step I should take. Should I ask for a ]? Best regards --] (]) 23:00, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441
	:Maybe there is precedent elsewhere. Notable members of the British Empire, such as ] who were born in India are not described as being Indian, although when listing their birthplace one should correctly say that Kipling was born in Bombay. It follows that Kipling could be included in a list or category of notable people whose birth occurred in India (or even in ]), but not in a list of famous Indians. This would suggest that notable people of any nationality who were born in Gibralter should go in the list or category of people born in Gibralter. To exclude notable persons who are or were not citizens of the current regime in Gibralter would be unreasonable and incorrect.] (]) 10:30, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
			Contact on user page attempted
	Yes, you've seen my point. The most weird issue is that in the current list most of the people listed cannot be described as Gibraltarians since that term applies only to what was/is the civilian population of the town and not to the members of the garrison and their families (which are obviously only British, even if they could apply, if they had wished, to the Gibraltarian status). That is, in its current status the list only comprises people (either Gibraltarian or not) born in the city since the 18th century, when it was transferred to Great Britain (now UK), but notable people born before are simply "banned". Nobody intend to list Spanish Gibraltar-born people as Gibraltarians, but just as Gibraltar-born notable guys (of course that notability may be discussed in a case-by-case basis, but it has been excluded since the beginning). --] (]) 11:47, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795
	::<small>''Reinserted reply to HotR after WP helpfully blanked it. ]<sup>]</sup> 12:48, 27 November 2009 (UTC):''</small>
	::That sounds eminently sensible to me. Perhaps splitting the section into "Notable Gibraltan citizens" and "Notable people born in Gibraltar" (or something similar) might also be worth considering, if it's felt necessary to make a clearer distinction? ]<sup>]</sup> 11:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
			Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent
	::: Your proposal also sounds sensible to me. The issue here is that there is no an equivalence between periods in the history of Gibraltar and nationality (that is, although all the notable Gibraltar-born guys in the Spanish period happens to be Spaniards, notable Gibraltar-born guys in the British period may be, usually, either Gibraltarian or British), so that option might be sensible. Other alternative could be including an only list, alphabetically ordered, including the nationality of the notable guy (for instance: "X (1850-1900) - British military engineer", "Y (1900-1950) - Gibraltarian painter", "Z (1600-1650) - Spanish cardinal"). --] (]) 21:37, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557] (]) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Think this calls for a fierce ] slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a ] according to ], as this is just an ] and frankly, I don't see ''direct'' personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as {{tq|some diffs from the past few days}} are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::The very concept of in itself could raise new issues, I'm afraid. Like , for instance.] (]) 15:55, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
			::Would I be the person to provide you with that {{tq|further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions}}? I did think that it would be more than a ], since that's for {{tq|one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior}} and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern ]. ] (]) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Removed PROD (reason given "Not notable for English encyclopaedia"). I hold no brief for the Spanish, but there is no way this deletion would be non-controversial. Advise Gibnews to use AfD if he wishes to delete any more Spaniards from Gibralter (as none would be non-controversial) and to consider the content of ] before making any nominations, particularly of figures who were of any significance in the history of the ] - which is very much a subject for the English encyclopaedia. ] (]) 16:11, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
			:@]: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. ''Hob should know better'', and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to ]. But I would ''caution you'' about ] and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your , , and it seems like you're having a problem handling a ] and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.
			:Furthermore it does appear that you might be ] because your attempts at ] for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. , , , , , , and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding ] and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards ]. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. ]&thinsp;] 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address ''unique issues'' as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. ({{tq|All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.}} ]) Thank you for your time and input.
			::] (]) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: {{tq|trying to report other editors in bad faith}}. ] (]) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{OD}}
			@]: Jay brought something to my attention with . It looks like there is ] (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think {{!tq|hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason!}} I'm confused. This specific revision also ] about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. {{tq|Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.}} I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, ], what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, '''not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT''', in your own words. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. ] (]) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::Good move; that article is in no way a PROD candidate and would certainly get kept, and most likely snow-kept, at AfD. There's also no such thing as "Not notable for '''English''' encyclopaedia" outside the normal ]; Gibnews might like to look at ], ] and ], to name but three ]s off the top of my head. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:43, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
			::look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @], you should familiarise yourself with ]. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. ] (]) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a ] slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{u|BarntToust}} You're being ] and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @], I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a '''formal warning''' or a ] slap is what needs to happen to Hob. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. ] (]) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are ] and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @], I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::@], I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. for ''context'', in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. ] (]) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Thanks! *curtsy* ] (]) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. ] (]) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: Hi, just to let you know that I've reverted the PROD template (which were not removed when Elen explained to Gibnews that his attempt to make ] removed was inappropriate), on the same grounds, in ] and ] (both, as Diego de Astorga y Céspedes, created by me). I don't know the inclusion of the PROD template is a disruptive action or not in itself. I simply want to let you know that the former, ] has been in wikipedia for more than a year (I created it in September 2008). The latter, , had a {{tl|underconstruction}} template as I created it yesterday. In none of the occasions I was notified as the template requires. --] (]) 21:37, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::I don't see a problem with this. If Gibnews continues to feel the articles are without merit, he can try AfD - but it would be worthwhile reading Eye Serene's comment's above before he does. ] (]) 00:01, 28 November 2009 (UTC)		:I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? ] (]) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::@] As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? ] (]) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". ]] 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' ]? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word ''bullshit'', which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills"]] seems pretty temperate. And so on. ] &#124; ] 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
			:I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at ] where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. ] (]) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::These been created by ] to provoke a dispute by including obscure people from prior to 1704 were born in Gibraltar on the ] main page. There are a number of articles on Misplaced Pages about ] however, the list on the Gibraltar main article does not include all of them, just a handful of the more prominent ones.
			:My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - ] (]) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			Hob Gadling failing to yield to ], apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. ] (]) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Inclusion of obscure people like ] who does not (currently) merit an article in the .es wikipedia simply for the purpose of starting an edit war is something I think deserves looking at carefully. --] (]) 09:50, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::If you believe it is of no value, ] is thataway. Also, per your note on my talkpage - Gibralter is a bloody great rock. Attempts to argue that it did not exist before the Brits arrived is ludicrous. As there is not two articles, one on the current situation and one on the rest of history, or one on the current regime and one on the geographical location, it follows that the article ought to be about the whole history of the rock. ] (]) 21:43, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
			:Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. ] (]) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::You miss the point, the article IS about Gibraltar the whole history of the Rock, including periods of occupation by the moors and Spanish is in ]. However the section in the main article on 'notable people' is very restricted and creating nonsense articles to justify adding obscure people of no consequence in the history of the territory is only done to provoke a dispute. And that is why its mentioned on this noticeboard. --] (]) 10:11, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
			*'''Propose''' serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at ]. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) ] (]) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:For context, ] is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. ] (]) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. ] (]) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Recuse{{smiley}} Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. ] (]) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. ] (]) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to ] above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. ] (]) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*As a note, Hob Gadling without comment and has not responded here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::No, you miss the point. I'll assume this is down to my phrasing it badly. The article ] is about the bloody great rock. It's not about ]. It includes information about the current regime, a summary of the history (for which there is a longer article), the geography, the climate etc. By that definition, you cannot define people from Gibralter only as citizens of the current regime. See also the notes above about Kipling - its anyone notable of any nationality who was born on the Rock. I also recommend that you stop being ]Y about people born on the rock before the Brits arrived. Again see the notes above - if you think they are truly not notable, go to AfD. Otherwise, I strongly recommend you let the matter drop. Now I am going to the talk page to recommend that we put the pre British persons back into the article, perhaps using subheadings to distinguish some time periods. Given that I am a Brit and have (as far as I know) not a drop of Spanish blood, nor any political view on Gibralter, nor any reason to advance a pro-Spanish viewpoint, I would appreciate a cessation of the personal attacks. Thank you. ] (]) 10:52, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
			*:Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. ] (]) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse top|Extended discussion}}
			{{od}}
			Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:This comment is actually more of a personal attack then any of the diffs provided originally. Smartass, like a teenager, pissy, lalaland? That's some ageism, maybe commenting on mental health, and some silly insults. I don't think you should see any sanctions for this, but hopefully you compare your comments to the diffs. ] (]) 22:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::Nope, I think you're missing the ], adding a whole bunch of obscure people to the Gibraltar article purely because they are Spanish is being ]. The purpose in doing so was being ] and to provoke a dispute, the next stage of which when the people are suggested to not be notable enough to be included in what is an overview article, will be to scream that the Brits are censoring the article. Why else do you think that the editor added a stack of redlinks, how many other articles think a goat herder is of sufficient merit to be included in an overview article, or perhaps the local parish priest of a town with less than 4000 people. Notably there was nothing to even say many of the proposed additions were even born in Gibraltar.
			::IP, how'd you get here? A person who calls things {{tq|bullshit}} and generally isn't in a good mood around others, being condescending: saying that they are pissy and being a smartass is ]. Teenagers are known for angst and pissy-ness and for having lip. Not insinuating they are a teenager, just that their behavior resembles that of. As you will recall, someone, somewhere in this derailed, miles-long trainwreck of an ANI report-turned morality seminar-turned COVID-19 ] + ] debate, said that there is no policy against profanity. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::The same editor who added 5 obscure people to the article, was edit warring the previous day to change the start of the second world war from 1939 to 1940, for an entirely specious reason. That is being ]. The ] edits are continuing see this diff and this diff , the second is purely intended to be provocative.
			:::If I tell User:ExampleA that they did an "amazing fuckin' job!" with a ], that is different than calling User:ExampleB a "{{!tq|fuckin' wanker}}" because they botched a ]. Context is everything, and I get how we are all connecting through the two-dimensional medium of simple text and thus misunderstandings tend to occur, but tones like these aren't that hard to discern. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::To also make a point, this occurs during mediation at the start of which all of the editors involved agreed to an undertaking not to disrupt the article. They also agreed to discuss any changes in the talk page first. This isn't happening.
			::::When ] shouts "fucking A!" after a job well done, that is not the same when he tells ] that he is a "fucking psycho murderer". <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::I'd also make the point, that on the British side, the editors involved made a offer to draw a line under any possible misunderstanding from the past and to work together in the future. That offer was flung back in their faces. There seems to be a tactic of disruption, edit warring, talk page posts to escalate tension, then turning round and expecting things to be discussed reasonably.
			:::Right, and there are no egregious uncivil diffs either. So, how is Hob acting like a pissy teenager, but you aren't? Catch my drift? This is a nothing burger report, and the reporter should get a boomerang. ] (]) 00:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::And whilst I am a Brit, I'm also half-Spanish my mother being one of the 3000 Spanish refugees who fled Franco's Spain to Britain. You suggest on the article talk page that there should a consensus discussion about who to add, the people suggested might be notable enough to justify a stub article, they're not notable enough to suggest inclusion in the overview article on Gibraltar. Now I would suggest that if you're planning to intervene, you stick around, because when the personal attacks accusing people of censorship and suppressing the truth start I would hope you'll intervene. For me, I've had a gutfull of being attacked as censoring the article because we respect NPOV and refuse to allow the article to be edited to favour a particular viewpoint.
			::::Hob's profanity is not amiable. It sours the collaboration with other editors. most importantly, it is undue. Mine is not undue, and is a statement of truth. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::The second reason I hope you stick around, is that I have a very strong suspicion that there is collusion off-wiki on these articles, because the actions of the editors involved is just too co-ordinated to be co-incidence. There is also an entry on the talk page that alludes to communication by email. I would really appreciate a neutral admin sticking around to ensure fair play. Not a personal attack but for me, writing was the "view of AN/I" on the talk page is questionable.
			:::::Provide a diff of something you believe is sanctionable. Your pile of personal attacks is making it unclear what you are trying to say. It's ok when you cuss, but it's bad if someone else does it? What? ] (]) 01:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::Purely for the record, Gibnews use of PROD was ] and I don't support it. It doesn't help to adopt the same tactic of disrupting wikipedia to make a point. I do support locking the article, I would suggest it continues until ALL OF THOSE involved respect the undertaking they signed at the start of mediation, stop the personal attacks and work toward improving the article, using the talk page to discuss edits and adding consensus material to the article. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 13:03, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
			::::::Profanity has nothing to do with it. The attitude is the thing that's wrong. The word "shit" can be said in many different ways. Some good, some bad. Have you even looked through these diffs of Hob's comments that have popped up through this ANI report? I also invite you to create an account. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::To be clear, my only accusation relating to ] was Gibnews's attempts to PROD the articles in order to get them out of the list. This is the very essence of point - it is disruptive because it fails to follow Misplaced Pages's own rules. Given that as it currently stands neither the short nor the long list contains any Spaniards, the concern that there is a deliberate effort to remove all evidence that Gibralter has ever had any connection with Spain has ] validity. A (well conducted) discussion on who belongs in the short list would not be pointy, but should not include "Spanish" or "from before the British arrived" as a category for exclusion. I am not sure that Gibnews would agree to this, but a fruitful discussion could be had by others with knowledge in the various areas, to allow us to compare say Penney with the Spanish Inquisitor - neither of whom I've ever heard of, but at least the Inquisition is something I have heard of, so that's probably influencing my decision at the moment. Personally, ] is the only person on the list I'm familiar with instantly. ] (]) 14:30, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
			:::::::So, to recap, ]: It's not ''what'' it is said that causes problems, it's '''''how''''' it is said that matters, and in what context. I call a pissy editor pissy because it's great to ]. I can use profanity to describe someone's behaviour, and if I weigh words, I can even use it when addressing someone's contributions; i.e. "This is a really fuckin' well done article, User:Example". Hob calling someone's opinions {{tq|bullshit}} is not the right thing to do. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::::Prior to 1704 Gibraltar was a small town of a few thousand people, it wasn't exactly a pleasant place to live and the Spanish monarchs had to compel people to live there. To be blunt it was the arse end of the universe. That there may be few Spaniards to go on that list might have something to do with that. Thats a more rational explanation than to assume bad faith and that they've been deliberately expunged.
			::::::::I think you may refer to this as calling a spade a spade. When someone says we should ignore science because it has a COI with Covid-19, their opinion is bullshit. This is what you are defending. ] (]) 03:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::::A rational discussion on who should be included is perfectly possible but not I fear with the editor who made these changes. They were introduced purely for the reasons of being ]. Gibnews can be stubborn when his back his up but he is amenable to discussion otherwise. And having Ecemaml tell him that was intended to do precisely that. As I've suggested, any discussion that concluded that some or all of those do not merit inclusion would result in accusations of suppression and censorship.
			:::::::::Eh, you can say "That's ] and ] and does not constitute ] as the subject is discussed in ]". Calling a spade a spade is easy, while addressing content and user contributions in dispute should require more, IDK, poise. I can say "fucking awesome work!" to an editor about their ] and no harm can be meant by that in any feasible situation, but when addressing questionable content, it should be done with nuance, eh? You can call someone's work shit whose work ''isn't'' shit, but you pretty much can't call someone's work "fucking amazing" whose work isn't amazing, as calling work "fucking amazing" provides pretty much no point of contention, unless you were just bullshitting them for no reason or trying to be nice about a novice's contributions that in terms of quality, reflect their inexperience.
	::::::::::Stick around, you might find it interesting. May i suggest that the article remains locked until there is a consensus on the edits under mediation. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 19:25, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
			:::::::::This entire ANI report has derailed into pretty much every unrelated topic save debate over what ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 03:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Waiting for more input from mediator I think. And it's very well known that ] is the arse end of the universe. ] (]) 20:18, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
			::::::::::I'm not worried about contexts when "strong language" is ok, and you can stop giving needless examples. I don't believe anything that violates our guidelines on civility took place at all in the diffs originally provided. Hob was reasonable in tone, and sometimes people are exasperated by nonsense. Being annoyed but mostly polite isn't actually against the rules. You will need better diffs to change my mind. ] (]) 06:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::::::Not if you happen to be an engineer, then its heavy engineering ]. Ciao. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 20:26, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
			:::::::::The COI pertains only to a few authors in particular with a personal stake in the outcome of the investigation. For example, the article uses several sources co-authored by Dr. Zhengliang Shi who {{tq|herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest}}<ref> Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/</ref> This is a secondary peer-reviewed article, and several editors who call LL fringe stated it is RS.<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z</ref><ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400</ref> ] (]) 08:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing ] misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as ], and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as ]. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. ]]<sup>]</sup> 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	unindent
			:Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. ] (]) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	Would an uninvolved admin please take a look at ], and ]. The same bad tempered exchanges are breaking out there as on ]. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 22:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
			:*I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) {{tq|bullshit}} to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that ''that'' was what led Lardlewarmers to try and , a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward ] situation. --] (]) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: Yes, please. --] (]) 22:47, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
			:*:There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "]" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to ] and stop treating ]. ] (]) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*:The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a ''chronic'' and ''ongoing'' habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (]) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. ] (]) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed ''I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type''. As the Alien above said, you '''{{tq|Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning.}}''' now ]. ]&thinsp;] 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to ], the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the ] contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ], as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the ''content'', not attacking the person (]). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.] (]) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::For the record I do ''agree with you'' that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been ] you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing ] or ], rather we depend on ] and ] to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to {{tq|steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person}}. However, that is not what I read in that . Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! ]&thinsp;] 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (]) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.] (]) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. ]&thinsp;] 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a {{tq|lesser offense}}. ] (]) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	: Going back to the point we're discussing, I'd like to say something:
	:* With regard to the mediation process, it was always understood (at least by me) that it applied to a specific disagreement (how the capture and exodus of the Gibraltarian population after the Anglo-Dutch takeover in 1704 has to be described). For me, introducing five "notable" guys that happened to be Spaniards in a list already containing 13 people, was not intended to be controversial. Upon my only reversion I explained carefully my edition and provided references for the articles not created yet.
	:* With regard to the five "notable" guys (described as "obscure"), I'll list them just to highlight why they're notable (more verbose explaination can be found in their articles):
	::# ]: lead one of the attacks over Gibraltar during the first Spanish siege. He's notable for two matters: it's the only Gibraltar-born guy that lead an attack to the town and the only that did it over the top of the Rock. It fulfills the criteria listed in ]. However, as the section under discussion seems to list people that were notable "outside" Gibraltar, I have no problem (and I've said that above) if he's not included.
	::# ]: the "local parish priest of a town with less than 4000 people". That town happens to be Gibraltar. That town happens not have reached again 4,000 people until the 19th century (that is ], ], ] and ] were born in a town smaller than Spanish Gibraltar). That parish priest happens to be one of the 60 people that remained in the town after the Anglo-Dutch takeover. That parish priest happens to be the only eye-witness of the siege and takeover from the inside. That parish priest happens to be the primary source of what happened in those events by all the historians of Gibraltar (yes, including William Jackson, the British Governor of Gibraltar) That parish priest happens to be the responsible of that the current Cathedral in Gibraltar stays where it stays and has kept Catholic worship for five centuries. That parish priest was the first Vicar General of Gibraltar (that is, he was no longer a parish priest). That Vicar General happens to be especially respected by the Catholic Dioceses of Gibraltar and buried in the Cathedral (). However, same comment applies.
	::# ]: Archbishop of Toledo, Primate of Spain, Grand Inquisitor, sponsor of one of the finest Baroque artworks in Spain (the '']''). It fulfills the criteria listed in ]. I don't think further comments are needed.
	::# ]: Spanish ''conquistador'', governor of the province of Venezuela, founder of several colonial cities in nowadays Venezuela. Founder of the only other town in the world which shares the same name (as it was given it by Ludueña). Same comment as before.
	::# ]: General of the Mercedarian order, president of the ], bishop of Lugo, Ávila and Jaén. At the moment, as he has no article, I don't object to include it.
	: So, to sum up, two guys from the Spanish period (in which, BTW, the statement "it wasn't exactly a pleasant place to live and the Spanish monarchs had to compel people to live there" is plainly false, since it happened '''only''' after the first Christian capture of the town in the 14th century). I can't see how such an inclusion may be controversial. Best regards --] (]) 22:47, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
			:Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. ] (]) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	On the other hand, I'm beginning to feel really unconfortable about the constant personal attacks and defamation I'm receiving. I'm trying to stick to a strict "no personal attack" behaviour, but the way I'm being defamating, as if I were a putching ball, seems to be far away from the Misplaced Pages principles. We can discuss about NPOV, strongly and fiercely support our positions, but personal attacks again and again are simply outside the usual behaviour in Misplaced Pages. Only in this discussion it's been said that:
			::It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of ''this specific'' pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. ] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	#"it looks like there is an orchestrated attempt to disrupt that and other articles on Gibraltar and set up Justin and myself" ()
			:::What you are describing is a different idea: ]. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus. {{tq|the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ]}} {{tq|The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.}}(]) ] (]) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	#"Its (..) typical of the sort of harassment tactic continually used by the Spanish Government against Gibraltar" ()
			::::That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. ] (]) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	#" been created by ] to provoke a dispute" ()
			:::::Beyond what @] said, ''for all parties'', it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil ]. ]&thinsp;] 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	#" simply for the purpose of starting an edit war" ()
			::::::Indeed. ] (]) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	#" nonsense articles (..) only done to provoke a dispute" ()
			:::::If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should ''not'' be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. ] (]) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	#"The purpose in doing so was being ] and to provoke a dispute" ()
			:::If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from ] or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - ] (]) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	#"the next stage of which when the people are suggested to not be notable enough to be included in what is an overview article, will be to scream that the Brits are censoring the article" ()
			::::Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. ] (]) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	#"The same editor who added 5 obscure people to the article, was edit warring the previous day to change the start of the second world war from 1939 to 1940, for an entirely specious reason" ()
			:::::I am in the diffs.
	#"There seems to be a tactic of disruption, edit warring, talk page posts to escalate tension, then turning round and expecting things to be discussed reasonably"
			:::::I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - ] (]) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	#"I have a very strong suspicion that there is collusion off-wiki on these articles, because the actions of the editors involved is just too co-ordinated to be co-incidence"
			::::::They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. ] (]) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	#"A rational discussion (..) is perfectly possible but not I fear with the editor who made these change"
	#" were introduced purely for the reasons of being ]"		:::::::I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above: {{tq|Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.}}] ] (]) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. ] (]) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	#" And having Ecemaml tell him that was intended to do precisely that"
			:::::No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. ] (]) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse top|title=Extended discussion}}
			:::::How ironic that you would call out canvass, when you haven't contributed to this discussion previously, nor have you contributed to any prior notice board. See ], also please see ] if you logged out just to make {{tq|problematic edits}} here.... ]&thinsp;] 05:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times, what are you talking about? IPs are only assigned for a few hours to weeks at a time usually. ] (]) 05:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::@]: Okay let me say it another way...
			:::::::* never in this history of this subject has an IP editor contributed.
			:::::::* since January 1, ALL of the IP's who have contributed to ANI aside from your are blocked or had their contribution reverted.
			:::::::* in the last 50,000 edits to this notice board, not a single anon has commented more than 34 times and that user was in Romania, whereas your IP shows US/Mobile, and they are currently blocked. Followed up an IPv6 with 30 edits, last participated in ANI back in May. Followed by a handful from the UK and other countries. The first one who is US based that was mobile has less than 12 edits, not hundreds.
			:::::::* when you choose to edit anonymously (which is your privilege) you accept the reality that people will question your constructiveness because of a lack of established history.
			:::::::But beyond all of that, aren't you simply deflecting from the question brought up? Perhaps @] has been lurking anonymously. As they have logged at least 31 edits to ANI alone . ]&thinsp;] 05:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::There's a lot of strawmen there to knock down if I cared to derail this conversation, but I'm curious what question you think I'm deflecting? Your assumptions of bad faith are expected, but disappointing. ] (]) 06:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::What I claim you are deflecting KETTLE: Somehow you feel like you can call out someone who hasn’t contributed previously as canvassed, which is a ''serious allegation'', yet that is exactly what your user account history appears reflect. When challenged, you claimed to have edited hundreds of time, which was rebutted with facts, you resorted to allegations. Interestingly they very closely mirror only one other person who liberally throws around terms like strawman and bad faith. And really only one person at ANI has ever held this view so strongly they would plainly say bad faith was “expected” from me . If your not that person, then my query is how did you get involved in this conversation, and when exactly do you proffer that you last edited on here as an IP constructively? ''However, '''if''' you are indeed that person, let me warn you, such activity is considered sock puppetry.'' (Of course editing while accidentally logged out is a human mistake. But persisting and pretending otherwise, is not.) ]&thinsp;] 07:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Don't know what this thread is about, but point 2 and 3 seem wrong - none of my IPs have been blocked, and I am an anon that has, in the to this board I made 38 of them (all edits by IPs starting with 2804:F14), let alone in the last 50 thousand edits.
			::::::::Maybe I'm misunderstanding your claims. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 06:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I think my detail for you was accidentally edited out. You would be an IPv6 from a different country, so unless this IP user is claiming they have rotating IPs hourly because they’re using an international VPN connecting via various countries, I find their claim that they just stumbled upon this conversation dubious at best. ]&thinsp;] 06:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Also in case you were not aware, while mobile IP addresses can and do change, they still remain with that mobile carrier. So while your ip address will change, who all of those addresses are registered to will not. What I mean is that will your current IP goes back to a US based cell network, you’re not going to get a new IP address that is registered in Japan or even one in the US that is through a completely different network (a few technical exceptions exist, but they’re nevertheless evident). Same with home internet as well. And of course, most work addresses are persistent. All that to say, a claim of “my ip address changes” does not mean that a persona cannot reasonably determine if you’ve contributed to ANI from the a network. ]&thinsp;] 07:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::When did I say I stumbled upon this thread? Provide the diff. You are putting words in my mouth and casting aspersions. I said my IP changes as a response to you saying I was a new editor. You are creating an elaborate narrative and getting strangely defensive. ] (]) 07:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I will gladly provide the answe after you answer the two questions I have previously asked to you. First was about KETTLE, and the second asked you to substantiate your claim of {{tq|I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times}} by providing your last contrustive ip edit to this notice board. ]&thinsp;] 07:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Please read ]. I'm not going to link all of my comments across IPs here for you. If you really believe I was canvassed, you need some diffs, or maybe you should strike your aspersions. ] (]) 07:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::All I can do is laugh at your replies. More KETTLE behavior. You claim don’t have to proof anything per SATISFY, yet in the same breath you demand such of others. More ad hominem, deflection. Zero actual replies. ]&thinsp;] 08:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::What are you talking about? I asked one question, got one answer and it was done. It was you who started a long thread full of bad faith assumptions and no diffs. Provide diffs, or kindly stop bludgeoning. ] (]) 08:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			{{reflist}}
	Most of the items are IMHO at least blatant assumptions of bad faith, but I'd like to highlight items 8 and 13.
			===Send to AE?===
	In item 8, Justin claims that I've intended to change the start of the WWII from 1939 and 1940. Here you have (explaining in the edit summary that it intends to talk about the "Gib involvement in WWII") and ("stating that there was no active involvement of Gibraltar in WWII until 1940 is a "disruptive edition" (..) You possibly know about the ], that conscription was introduced in Gibraltar in 1940, that evacuation plans were drawn up and implemented in May 1940, that Churchill considered the evacuation of Gibraltar in June 1940 or that the City Council was suspended in 1941"). It could happen that, as long as my explaination was in Gibnews talk page, Justin sincerely thought what he misleadingly describes. But I explain it to him ("Stating that the active involvement of Gibraltar during the WWII started in 1940 is possibly something that could be denied, even if it's true"). Yes. All this seems really stupid, but it's really disappointing to listen to the same misleading description of something that has been already clarified.
			Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to ] since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. ] (]) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	In item 13, Justin claims that I've told that "Gibraltar does not exist". Well, the problem here is that he fails to quote the whole sentence that says "Gibraltar does not exist from the ] point of view, so a sovereign state cannot dispute anything but with other sovereign state)". I clarify that the discussion was about a dispute on territorial waters around Gibraltar. In order to clarify that such waters are British and not Gibraltarian, since only a sovereign state (the only subject, along with supranational organizations, in the ], the branch of Law dealing with international relationships between states) can "own" territorial waters, I simply mentioned ]. As the statement was shocking (I didn't intend to), I duly provided a verbose explaination in . Possibly Justin is not aware of this, but anyway, my edition has been misquoted.
			:Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".
	Sorry for the verbose message, but really, I feel upset. May I ask for some shelter from this? Best regards --] (]) 22:47, 29 November 2009 (UTC) PS: Elen, I'd be really glad if you'd stick around the article
			:That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - ] (]) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::The IP made no such claim? - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - ] (]) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::FYI ] is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. ] (]) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::That's what I had thought, but the not logged in guy seems to be saying that a civility complaint should be moved to AE because it's a better venue for "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".
			:::::It's really striking to me that the main argument here is not over whether Hob is civil, it's whether he should have to be. - ] (]) 20:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. ] (]) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Actually the above in many ways the above summarises the problem. See you could have just explained, instead you choose to respond with a bad faith presumption. That your edits were reverted might have something to do with the fact that the previous day you changed the date of the start of WW2 and then edit warred to keep it. I find the explanation above less than convincing, particularly when after being reverted you never chose to give it, edit warred to keep it and it only became apparent after it was pointed out as needlessly disruptive. Given your history of a negative interaction with Gibnews, not even a charitable interpretation would assume you were simply misunderstood in your comments about Gibraltar being a none entity. Noticeably you can suddenly become very eloquent when you want to be.
			::While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why ] is policy.
	:Seeing as we're listing examples of edits that apparently "upset" you:
			::Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. ]. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	* ] An outrageous POV accusation for simply pointing out the problems of congestion at the border crossing.
			::Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. ] (]) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	* ] Funnily enough I get upset at being called a liar.
			:I '''second''' to motion to bring this to ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:So yes I would appreciate someone sticking around to get the full picture and not the carefully edited highlights. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 23:55, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
			== Edit warring to prevent an RFC ==
	::Well, just for information, I'm quite fed up of Justin's personal attacks as well. Some of them can be seen , or . ] (]) 01:02, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			@] has removed an RFC tag from ] now within .
			] provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list.
	If you ask me, everybody needs to stop attacking everybody else. Lets leave all the nationalist viewpoints out of this - the rock was once run by the Spanishes, currently the Brits are in charge, perhaps in the future, it'll belong to the Chinese. Our role as Wikipedians is to record the current state of knowledge about the subject.] (]) 01:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:All of those carefully highlighted diffs were in response to other's comments, just to put things into perspective. I would prefer to concentrate on articles but it feels like being backed into a corner under a number of editors who want to skew the POV of articles for nationalist reasons. I've simply asked for a neutral admin to look at the articles, with no attempt to pre-influence them with diffs. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 09:41, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an ] problem or a ] that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm ''not'' saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in ''some'' cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute.
	* This thread is getting into tl;dr territory. You're not going to get more than a few, if any, uninvolved editors to read so much verbage and make a thoughtful comment. I suggest you do two things:
	*# Consider recourse to ]. I think I remember investigating a very tenacious sock puppeteer who was disrupting Gibraltar articles in the past.
	*# If there are disagreements among editors over content, try ], ], or ]. This board, ] is only for issues where administrator intervention is required. I don't see that resulting from this thread.
	*: My thoughts; yours may differ. ] <sup>]</sup> 01:49, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::Yes it does verge into tl;dr territory, the point raised at AN/I is quite simple, that an ongoing mediation attempt is being disrupted by editors who agreed not to make ANY contentious edits during mediation. That is now spilling onto other articles, ], while the disputed article remains locked. I suspect when the lock expires we'll see more of the same. So I was suggesting the lock remains until everyone calms down and agrees to work constructively. I'm leading to the suspicion that if this isn't dealt with now its only going to escalate. I would also suggest locking other articles until people stop the bickering and edit constructively. Is there any objection to that simple proposal? '']'' <small>'']''</small> 09:41, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the ]. See you tomorrow. ] (]) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	I appreciate your interest, Jehochman. Let me just point out that there is an ongoing mediation process . Recent complaints refer to uncivil behaviour, which is quite one-sided in my opinion, not to content disputes. As for "''our contentious editions spilling onto other articles''", sorry but I can't see the contentiousness in the albeit being one of the editors involved in the current discussion. And I don't think of myself as being a particularly insensitive person. However, I do apologise if some comment of mine has been offensive to any editor. Finally, Justin please notice that I do not really enjoy the accusations of , nor being described as a to the mediator, neither being systematically labeled as disruptive and the like, the last time in a row being the above comment. Have a nice day. ] (]) 10:22, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			:As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC.
	:Meat puppet, as in co-ordinating activities off-wiki, it was expressed as a suspicion not an accusation. Noticeably I did not specify any particular ''editor''! I'll resist the rather obvious inference that could be made there. If you don't wish to be described as a wind up merchant, then cease the provocative postings in talk pages. Simple. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 12:29, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			:I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith.
			:The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. ] (]) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. ] (]) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{u|Axad12}}, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have ''absolutely no'' conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. ] (]) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{u|Axad12}}, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. {{u|WhatamIdoing}}, a {{tl|trout}} for ]ing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template.
			::::The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. ] (]) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be ''falsely accused'' of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that {{tpq|exceptionally serious abuse}}? ] (]) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request.
			:I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request).
			:As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. ] (]) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? ] (]) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content.
			:::Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. ] (]) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::"Asking a second time" is not ]. ] (]) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. ] (]) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the ]. See, e.g., {{xt|An editor ''gaming the system'' is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support.}} Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy.
			::::::I also direct your attention to the item that says {{xt|Gaming the system may include...]ing the consensus-building process}}. ] (]) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to ], which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. ] (]) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not {{tq|highly misleading}}.
			:::I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. ] (]) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? ] (]) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. ] (]) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved.
			::I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. ] (]) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when ] can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one ] book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer.
			:::But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my ] experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. ] (]) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself.
			::::It isn't really relevant here but actually I ''didn't'' expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. ] (]) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor ] with {{u|Graywalls}}, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article.
	::No. You didn't specify. You all three editors you didn't agree with instead ("''All of sudden, three Spanish editors are all ganging up together, rather like they're co-ordinating off-wiki. This screams meat puppet to m''e"). Sorry if I consider myself alluded, as one of those three persons. As for the inmediately prior sentence ("''not to mention an editor we haven't seen in months suddenly turns up stoking tension''"), tell me ''who'' is he?
	::I'd like to know as well if, when you said "''Forget it, from past experience Cremallera is a wind up merchant''" you were referring to me or to another "Cremallera"? A simple apology would have been the sensible approach here, if you ask me. ] (]) 13:36, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue.
	:::If an apology was in order you'd get one but having admitted to be on a wind up, see , your demand for an apology seems contrived. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 20:17, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (]) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative.
	::::Sorry? I can't see how exactly having to ask you to stick to the content of the discussion instead of attacking the editors can be interpreted as "''admitting to be on a wind up''". Whatever. What strikes me most is that you are still trying to justify your resorting to personal attacks by blaming me for it. Please, stop. And I genuinely mean it. ] (]) 22:10, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::A simple example, I admitted to an error in naming a source, your response "''Yeah. Right. Of course.''" So can you please explain to me how that wasn't intended to raise tension? What actually strikes me most, is that so often your posts are intended to stoke a dispute, yet you try and blame others for it. Please stop, given that agreement is apparently so close in mediation. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 23:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			'''Proposal''': Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and ], Axad12 and Graywalls should be ] from the Breyers article and its talk page.
	::::::Jesus Christ. And that's how you rationalize your constant violations of ] for 12 days already? How exactly is that ''my fault''? Just in case I've not made myself clear enough earlier: personal attacks are '''not allowed''', and '''you are responsible''' for every word '''you have written'''. '''Period'''. ] (]) 00:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			*<s>'''Support'''</s>. ] (]) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::I have no problem whatsoever in accepting responsibility for what I have written. I would be perfectly content for some neutral admin to look over the talk page history. Somehow I doubt anyone would come out of it with any credit, given the bad tempered discourse that has taken place. However, I'm not asking for people to only consider the carefully edited highlights. And as I don't see this going anywhere productive, I'll draw my participation in this particular discourse to a conclusion with the suggestion that you should listen to your own advice. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 00:26, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:Strike as withdrawn for Axad12 ABAN to concur with {{u|Cullen328}} and the ''oppose'' decisions below.
			::{{u|Graywalls}} is a separate case remaining undecided here. Over the 2024 article and talk page history at Breyers, this user was the main purveyor of disinformation, and has not acknowledged his talk page hostility and errors of judgment, despite abundant presentation of facts, sources, explanations, and challenges for information below. Graywalls should commit to abstain from editing the Breyers article for a given period, as Axad has done. ] (]) 00:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{re|Zefr}}, your domineering and territoriality to that article is a big part of escalation and if anyone, it should be you who should refrain from it. Blatantly disregarding consensus and going so far as saying {{tq|Statements of facts supported by reliable sources do not need talk page consensus.|tq}} as done in which goes to show you feel you're above consensus. You weren't persuaded until you were corrected by two administrors {{u|Aoidh}} and {{u|Philknight}} on the matter on the belief you're entitled to insert certain things against consensus. You also were blocked for the fifth time for edit warring in that article, with previous ones being at different articles with dispute with other editors, which shows your lack of respect for community decision making. ] (]) 17:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Well, your concept of what was a false consensus has been dismissed by the RfC result, so you should move on from this bitterness and distortion of truth. In reply to Aoidh and Philknight at the Breyers talk page, I stated in my next comment, ''"Yes, a key word <u>unintentionally omitted</u> in my response concerning statements and sources was "verifiable".'' As there are few watchers/editors of the Breyers article (62 as of today, probably many from Unilever who do not edit), I provided statements of facts verified by reliable sources, whereas this simple practice appears to not be in your editing toolkit.
			:::The obligation remaining with you in this discussion is to respond to below in the section, '''The actual content that led to this dispute.''' Let's have your response to that, and your pledge to abstain from editing the Breyers article - you did say on the talk page on 29 Nov that you would "delegate the actual editing to someone else." I think your defiance to respond to challenges in this discussion section affirms my recommendation that you are ABANNED from the Breyers article and IBANNED from attacking me because you are unable to face the facts. ] (]) 18:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::It was a suggestion that someone, meaning neither YOU or I. Not that Zefr continue editing and not I. Your controlling, ] approach was a significant portion of the problem. Additionally, you proposed administrative sanctions against me, but did not tell me about it as required. I only figured out after someone told me about it on my talk page. Why did you do that? ] (]) 19:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You had already been notified of the problem you caused at the Breyers article Now, you are engaged in to avoid answering the Cullen328 paragraphs and the several requests for you to explain and own up to your disruptive behavior and non-collaboration. Regarding OWN, there are few editors at Breyers. I countered your attempts to slander the article with the "antifreeze" term and bogus diet book references by applying verifiable facts and sources.
			:::::OWN:''"Being the primary or sole editor of an article does not constitute ownership, provided that contributions and input from fellow editors are not ignored or immediately disregarded. Editors familiar with the topic and in possession of relevant reliable sources may have watchlisted such articles and may discuss or amend others' edits. This too does not equal ownership, provided it does not marginalise the valid opinions of others and is adequately justified."'' If you had offered valid content and sources, I would have collaborated.
			:::::I'm sure editors have seen enough of your personal grievances expressed here. Please stop. I'm not returning unless an exception occurs. ] (]) 20:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:'''Oppose''': I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard.
			*:I have not {{tq|ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate}}, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them.
			*:Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024.
			*:I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make.
			*:Also, the idea that I made a {{tq|hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC}} is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect.
			*:I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time.
			*:Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at ], but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. ] (]) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. , because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see ] for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling ]. {{re|Aoidh}} also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see ] ] (]) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	UNINDENT
			*:Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. ] (]) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I'd just like to echo that sentiment. I'm all in favour of consensus.
			*::My position on this article hasn't been motivated by a partisan view on Propylene Glycol but has simply been in relation to serving the consensus position as it stood at the time. That is the approach I hope I adopt on all Misplaced Pages articles. If the consensus alters on this article (as seems likely) then I'll adopt the same approach in relation to serving the ''new'' consensus.
			*::My primary area of interest on this website is COI issues. I'm simply not interested in content disputes or in pushing any kind of POV on Misplaced Pages. I'm not the sort of user who flagrantly disregards a newly emerging consensus by editing contrary to the outcome of an RfC.
			*::I'd welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that going forwards (i.e. without an article ban). ] (]) 06:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::* The mention by Graywalls for an RfC on 27 Dec had no influence on the one existing. As an uncomplicated process, an editor truly sincere in having community input would have posed a simple objective question. Graywalls, why didn't you take 5 minutes and create the RfC question you wanted? What would have been your RfC question?
			*::Specifically for propylene glycol (you are still defending its use in the article by - see comments about this book in the RfC): {{tq|what do you believe propylene glycol does in a frozen dessert and what would you prefer the article to say about propylene glycol? I have asked for this clarification on the talk page many times and in the DRN, but you ignored the opportunity to collaborate and clarify.}}
			*::
			*::Your reverts in article history and combative talk page behavior over months revealed a persistent intent to disparage the Breyers article, focus on the "antifreeze" slur (mainly promoting ), and restore a skeletal version having no sources more recent than 2018 , after That version also has misinformation under the section 'Ice cream', falsely stating that Breyers changed their ice cream ingredients by using other additives, which in fact, were used to evolve a new category of frozen desserts not intended to be ice cream. I believe you know this, but you and Axad12 persisted to favor misinformation for the article.
			*::The RfC I provided came from steps in the lead of ]: 1) generally poor talk page progress, where one editor seeking facts verified by current sources was opposed by Graywalls, Adax12, and {{u|NutmegCoffeeTea}}, all defending a version including "antifreeze"; 2) an RSN post where Graywalls argued that a web link by the Seattle PI made the Motley Fool article an RS; 3) for which Graywalls, Axad12, and NutmegCoffeeTea abstained from collaboration to improve the article; 4) , which appears to be <u>willfully ignored</u> by Axad12 and Graywalls, who responded only with hostility and defiance against the facts; 5) seeking third opinions from admins, first by BD2412 (talk page on 29-30 Nov) and by , resulting in verbose trolling by these two users. Axad12's response on 27 Dec was to .
			*::Axad12 and Graywalls should be ABANNED from the Breyers article for exhibiting 1) hostility on the talk page to good faith proposals for making the article better, and 2) persistence to perpetuate misinformation on propylene glycol. Simply, what history shows that either editor has tried to improve the Breyers article? Both users meet most of the definitions of ] for the article, its talk page, and the RfC. ] (]) 18:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Zefr, I've already indicated on several occasions that I welcome and support the developing new consensus. Graywalls has made a similar comment below. That being the case, I don't really see what purpose an article ban would be intended to serve.
			*:::Admittedly there has been some quite heated disagreement over recent months, but it seems that we all now have the robust talkpage consensus that we were hoping for in one way or another and that all three of us are happy to move forward in support of that consensus.
			*:::You were clearly in the minority for quite a long time and I can appreciate that you found that experience frustrating. However, to continue to make allegations above of bad faith, trolling, tagteaming, etc. about those who constituted the valid majority for several months is just an attempt to perpetuate strife on an issue which is now, as far as I can see, satisfactorily resolved. ] (]) 19:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Filed under: sometimes you hurt articles by treating COI editors as the enemy. The problem here is two users who should really know better edit-warring over the course of ''months'' to reinstate TikTok diet influencer silliness into a Misplaced Pages article, repeatedly reinstating ] content (implicitly, if not explicitly). We currently treat a little "avoid antifreeze" bubble in a diet book (which includes Breyers in a list of brands) and a book published by one of RFK Jr's antivax publishers as ] for including the insinuation that an FDA-approved and much-conspiratorialized additive is harmful. They've been repeatedly removed, but two editors keep putting them back, whether because of a misunderstanding of ]/] or in pursuit of COI purification. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 13:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I take your point but I think you're misjudging the situation somewhat. Prior to the opening of the current RfC it was approximately 6 or 7 users in favour of inclusion vs 3 or 4 favouring exclusion. I only reverted the attempts at exclusion because those attempts were contrary to the talk page consensus.
			*:I'm perfectly open to the suggestion that that consensus position was wrong but the simple fact of the matter was that there was ''at that time'' no consensus in favour of exclusion.
			*:It has only been in the last couple of days that the requesting editor has been able to demonstrate a consensus in favour of exclusion. And that's great, I have no problem with that at all. In fact I welcome it.
			*:My understanding is that editors wishing to make changes to article text should not do so if there is a consensus against what they are trying to do, and that under such circumstances an edit can be (indeed ''should be'') reverted. If I'm mistaken on that score then I'm perfectly happy to take instruction. However, I really want to stress that my actions were based primarily upon that reasoning and were made in good faith. ] (]) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::@], you should not revert something because other editors want it to be reverted. You should only make content changes that you personally support. This is necessary for BRD to work. See ] for an explanation of why. ] (]) 17:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:{{re|Rhododendrites}}, the antifreeze matter is ] since I believe everyone's pretty much agreed it doesn't need to be in there. Zefr has taken issues with me, Axad12, NutMegCoffee and possibly some others. They've tried to get the article "set in place" to their preferred version, but that was declined admin {{u|Daniel Case}} who determined it to be content dispute ]. Zefr inferring alleging I was <s>"uncooperative"</s> <u>not collaborating/cooperating in the way that he was hoping</u> in DR, but I don't believe that to be so. <u>There was nothing intentional on my part to not cooperate.</u> I'll see if {{re|Robert McClenon}} would like to share their observation on that since they closed the dispute.
			*:https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Breyers/Archive_2#c-Rusalkii-20240814014600-Inkian_Jason-20240801145900 here's another uninvolved editoring erring on the side of inclusion. A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus. Reading through the current plus the archived discussions, up until the RfC, the general consensus is in support of having PG mention and Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus. As I mentioned, if consensus changes with the RfC, I'm not opposed to going with that. ] (]) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) (adjusted ] (]) 13:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC))
			*::For the record, I never stated the word "uncooperative" at DRN or the Breyers talk page, but rather "non-collaborative", as discussed in the thread with Robert McClenon below.
			*::"Set in place to their preferred version" and "Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus" should be translated to using "facts verified by reliable sources", which is the simple goal for the Breyers article that Graywalls has obstructed over months.
			*::It's incredible that Graywalls says even today above, knowing the comments on the RfC and months of being presented with facts and sources about why propylene glycol is safely used in thousands of manufactured foods: ''"A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus."''
			*::Here's your chance to tell everyone:
			*::Why do you feel propylene glycol was used in Breyers frozen desserts (in 2013, not since)? What concern do you have about it, and what government or scientific source says it's unsafe in the amounts regulated by federal laws? Give a sentence here that you think meets consensus and uses a reliable source. ] (]) 01:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::You're right, you did not use that specific word. I've corrected my response due to wording. ] (]) 13:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			===A Non-Mediator's Statement===
	Again as it keeps being hidden by verbage, the suggestion is to keep the lock on those articles until an agreement is reached in mediation. Does that not seem sensible? '']'' <small>'']''</small> 12:29, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			I am not entirely sure why ] has pinged me about this dispute, saying that I "closed this dispute". The accuracy of the statement that I "closed this dispute" depends on what is meant by "this dispute".
	:I've extended the protection indefinitely on ] and ]; I think the above suggestion is a good idea and I'm seeing signs in this thread that resolution is still some way off. I further believe that edit-warring is likely to resume once protection has expired. This is slightly unusual in that we don't normally protect pre-emptively, but I think if it's made clear that there's no choice but to resolve this content dispute peacefully, hopefully all parties will be motivated to do just that. I think it's also worth making clear that, should the edit-warring widen to other articles (such as ] noted above), blocks '''will''' be forthcoming. The spirit as well as the letter of ] is expected to be adhered to. ]<sup>]</sup> 12:54, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			I closed the ] thread, ], on 12 December. I obviously didn't resolve a dispute that has been continuing for another three weeks, and the claim that I closed the dispute looks to me like an attempt to confuse the jury. ] had opened the DRN thread on 3 December, complaining about the insertion of the word ] and of the mention of ]. I was not entirely sure beyond the mention of ] what the issues were. There were questions about what the procedure was for handling a ] dispute; I think that Zefr was said to be the one. There was a long question that may have been about whether ] is voluntary; DRN is voluntary. Then Zefr said that the case could be withdrawn because no one else was commenting. The disputants other than Zefr never did say exactly what the article content issues were, perhaps because they didn't want to discuss article content, and were not required to discuss article content. If anyone is implying that I resolved or settled anything, I have no idea what it was.
	:: Hi, EyeSerene, I must say that I strongly disagree with such a measure and I'll explain why. My main concern is the double standard that might be deduced of the indefinite block of both articles. In the first one, there was a disagreement about the interpretation of a given part of the history of Gibraltar and the text was removed while a consensus was made (sorry to consider the inclusion of Spanish guys in a list of Gibraltar-born guys as controversial... it would be as if someone considered controversial to add a notable woman to a list of notable men from a given place). In History of Gibraltar, as far as I've been involved, it has happened just the opposite. Justin has introduced a controversial text (which was reverted and explained by me once) and duly restored by Justin. Your block leaves it. As the block is indefinite, there is no possibility to include a proper {{tl|disputed}} template (as there is a strong disagreement about the factuality of what Justin has introduced). Therefore, the indefinite block leaves the article such is. Obviously, it's up to you. I just wanted to object :-) --] (]) 22:49, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			I see that the dispute either was continuing in other forums for three weeks, or has reopened. I see that ] edit-warred to prevent an RFC from running, making vague but noisy statements about ]. I don't know who is said to be working for Unilever or for anyone else. It is clear that this dispute is longer on antagonism than on clarity. ] (]) 22:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::I presume that the edit referred to is this , explained ] and ]. If someone could explain how traffic congestion is controversial, they'll have my gratitude. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 00:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:{{re|Robert McClenon}}, I pinged you, because I felt you'd be a good commentator to evaluate whether you also felt I was "not cooperative" in the process as Zefr says. I tried to participate, but it got closed shortly after I posted a comment in it. ] (]) 22:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Hello, EyeSerene, this is Cremallera. I was previously for the temporary full-protection of both articles as it is a standard procedure intended to cool down a little a heated debate, and also to avoid the possible (albeit brief) unbalance between the pleading parties as a result of an editor deeply involved in the discussion deciding to take a short break from wikipedia the night before the blocks.
			::Was that purposely mis-stated to be provocative and mislead the discussion here?
	::::However, an indefinite protection of the articles is another kettle of fish, as I see it. I acknowledge that the intention is to motivate the parties to settle the content disputes peacefully, but I do think that the parties are not in equal positions here as can be seen in the reversion history statistics of 's article (editions in 's article are more evenly distributed, though). One party being comfortable with the current content of an indefinitely fully-protected article has no incentive to resolve any argument about it. In my opinion, unlocking the article and letting the ongoing mediation run its course may be more fruitful. It would probably be helpful to keep track of the articles as well, but I'm confident in Atama's diplomatic skills. Thanks for your time. ] (]) 01:20, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			::I said you were <u>non-collaborative</u>, which describes your behavior throughout your editing history on the Breyers article, its talk page, and the DRN. You refused collaboration at DRN, which is the whole point of the process. DRN FAQ: ''"refusing participation can be perceived as a refusal to collaborate, and is not conducive to consensus-building."''
			::You were notified about the , and you posted a general notice about it on the , so you were aware of the process, but ignored it. Meanwhile, your editing history over 6-12 Dec shows dozens of edits,
			::You made no attempt to collaborate at DRN, posting only one off-topic
			::I requested closure of the DRN on 12 Dec due to non-participation by you and the others. On 13 Dec, . cc: {{u|Robert McClenon}}. ] (]) 00:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{re|Zefr}}, As been said to you by others, participation is not mandatory. Other editors are not required to and you shouldn't reasonably expect them to prioritize their real life schedule or their Misplaced Pages time on dispute that you runs on your own schedule to your DRN you started around your own schedule on your own terms. I have initially waited to give others time to comment as their time allows. I'm also not particularly fond of your berating, incivil, bad faith assuming comments directed at myself, as well as a few other editors and it's exhausting discussing with you, so I'm not feeling particularly compelled to give your matters priority in my Misplaced Pages time. ] (]) 06:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			====A Possibly Requested Detail====
			Okay. If the question is specifically whether ] was uncooperative at ], then I can state that they were not uncooperative and did not obstruct or disrupt DRN. Graywalls took very little part in the DRN proceeding before I closed it. They were not required to take part, although they say that they would have made a statement if the case had stayed open a little longer. The antagonism that I saw was between ] and ], and I collapsed an exchange between them. I did not read what I am told were long previous discussions, because I expect the disputants at DRN to begin by telling me concisely what each of them wants to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Graywalls was not uncooperative at DRN.
			] (]) 00:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Okay. ] is making a slightly different statement, that ] did not ] at DRN. That is correct. And I noted above that their mention that I had closed the dispute depended on what was meant by the "dispute". and looked like an attempt to confuse the jury. ] (]) 03:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::@] Zefr did not use the word uncooperative although did say uncollaborative and I used the two interchangeably in my ping. I did participate in it ]. I haven't participated in DRN until that point, so I wasn't really sure how it worked. ] (]) 13:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			===The actual content that led to this dispute===
			Two month ago, ] included this shockingly bad content: {{tpq|As of 2014, some flavors of Breyer's ice cream contains propylene glycol as an additive. Propylene glycol is a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze and it is clear fluid made by "treating propylene with chlorinated water to form the chlorohydrin, which is then converted to the glycol, an alcohol, by treating it with a sodium carbonate solution." Propylene glycol is formulated into Breyer's fat-free and Carb Smart ice cream to make it easier to scoop.}} The notion that an article about an ice cream company should include a detailed description of how a ] food additive is manufactured is bizarre enough, as is the cherrypicked and glaringly misleading assertion about "antifreeze", but the reference used to support the Breyers claim was a book called ''Eat It to Beat It!: Banish Belly Fat-and Take Back Your Health-While Eating the Brand-Name Foods You Love!'' written by a quack/crank diet profiteer named David Zinczenko. I invite any editor to take a search engine look at Zinczenko's body of work, and come away with the conclusion that his writings are anything other than fringe and unreliable. Despite the glaringly obviously non-neutral and tendentious problems with this shockingly bad content, editors including most prominently {{u|Graywalls}} and {{u|Axad12}} dug in their heels, fighting a reargard action for nearly two months, determined to make this mundane routine ice cream company look as bad as possible. Their self-justification seems to be that big bad corporations have ''no right whatsover'' to try to remove atrociously bad content about their products from Misplaced Pages, and that any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association. I am not an advocate for corporations ''per se'', but I am an advocate for corporations being treated ] like all other topics, rather with disdain and contempt, which was the case here, as I see it. I do not know what the best outcome is here, but I certainly encourage these two editors to refrain from any other unjustified and poorly referenced anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end. ] (]) 07:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:A striking and shocking aspect of this sordid situation is that two editors, {{u|Graywalls}} and {{u|Axad12}} were able to concoct a false "consensus" supporting various versions of this garbage content. And then when another editor tried to start a RFC about the appallingly bad content, {{u|Axad12}} tried over and over and over again to stop the RFC and defend the atrocious content rather than correcting it, aided and abetted by {{u|Graywalls}}. When the RFC actually went live, it soon became clear that many editors agreed that the content these two editors advocated for was utterly inappropriate. ] (]) 08:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Cullen,
			:As per my comments above, my motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time. I did not {{tq|concoct}} that consensus, at least 5 users other than me were against excluding the material.
			:I have never had any particularly strong opinion one way or the other on the content issue and I try as best as I can not to get involved in content disputes. I have not {{tq|dug in heels}} or attempted to promote any kind of fringe opinion and nor have I engaged in {{tq|anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end}}.
			:Similarly I do not hold the view that {{tq|any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association}}, or any opinion even vaguely resembling that view. On the contrary, I have often implemented COI edit requests on behalf of corporations or have pointed out to corporate employees how such requests would need to be amended to conform with sourcing or other requirements. Repeatedly engaging in that activity would presumably make me very {{tq|evil}} indeed, in my own eyes, if I held the view that you attribute to me.
			:I reverted the Breyer edits in good faith because there was no consensus in favour of them. If I was incorrect on a point of policy in that regard then fair enough, however please do not attempt to attribute to me sentiments which I do not harbour.
			:Also, I did not attempt to stop the RfC {{tq|over and over and over again}}. I removed the tag twice, then requested guidance from administrators and immediately replaced the tag when requested to do so. The tag was removed, in all, for a matter of minutes and had no meaningful impact on the progress of the RfC. I have accepted elsewhere that I now appreciate that the basis on which I removed the tag was inappropriate. I have also stated that {{tq|From my standpoint wasn't a process that I was familiar with - but I can see from the many excellent contributions here that this is the best way of resolving content disputes}}. I have also stated that I welcome and support the new consensus. ] (]) 08:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , {{u|Axad12}}, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. ] (]) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I {{tq|obviously dislike}} Breyers or (their parent company) Unilever, or indeed that I consider either to be {{tq|evil}}?
			:::To the best of my recollection, I've only ever made 3 mainspace edits to the Breyers article - each time on the stated basis in the edit summary that the edit I was reverting was contrary to consensus.
			:::I've re-read the extensive talk page discussions in recent days and I can only see that I ever commented on the COI angle and the nature of the consensus. Those comments were based on my understanding of policy at the time. I do not see {{tq|anti-corporate diatribes}} or evidence that I {{tq|obviously dislike}} Breyers or Unilever.
			:::Indeed, I do not hold any particularly strong views on Breyers, Unilever or any other corporations. ] (]) 09:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::As I said, {{u|Axad12}}, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to ] to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. ] (]) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::My activity on that talk page has solely been in relation to pointing out what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was a valid COI concern and observing that from Aug to Dec there has never been a consensus in favour of exclusion.
			:::::Anything beyond that is simply you attributing motives that do not exist.
			:::::I have never stated or implied that {{tq|a corporation does not deserve neutrality}} and nor do I hold such a view.
			:::::I happily admit that I'm quite animated and enthusiastic about COI issues and reverting edits which appear to be contrary to consensus. With the benefit of hindsight probably I should have let go of those issues at an earlier stage and vacated the field for those who actually had an appetite to argue on content grounds.
			:::::I'd also point out that for a significant part of the last 2 months I had actually unsubscribed from the relevant talkpage threads and only ended up getting involved again due to being summoned to the Dispute Resolution thread. If I had been {{tq|determined over the last two months to maintain various versions of biased non-neutral content}} then hopefully it stands to reason that I would not have unsubscribed in that way - thus resulting in a situation where I was actually completely unaware of much of the talkpage and mainspace activity over the period that you refer to. ] (]) 10:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your {{tq|motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time}}. You are also obligated to ''actually'' look at the disputed content and the sources supporting it. Why didn't you do that? Why were you unable to see what multiple editors in the RfC are commenting about? You shouldn't just blindly revert content like that, without taking a look for yourself to see if the complaint about the disputed content has any merit, like it being reliably sourced and due for inclusion.]] 10:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::That's a very fair question.
			:::::::The answer is that I was inclined to believe the opinions of editors much more experienced than myself who were against exclusion, particularly the editor who turned down the original COI edit request (whose work on COI edit requests I have the greatest of respect for).
			:::::::User Whatamidoing has already pointed out above that my error lay in accepting those users' opinions. I agree with Whatamidoing's observation there.
			:::::::I can only say that what I did was done in good faith based on my understanding of policy at the time. I now know where I erred (in several different ways) and I am glad to have received instruction in that regard.
			:::::::However, I really cannot accept the repeated suggestion that I vindictively masterminded a long anti-corporate campaign to keep bad material in an article. That suggestion is fundamentally not true. ] (]) 10:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been.]] 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Yes, I entirely accept that.
			:::::::::For clarity, when I said {{tq|my understanding of policy at the time}} I meant ''my understanding of policy'' at the time - I wasn't trying to suggest that the policy has changed since I made those edits.
			:::::::::What I am saying is that those edits were not made with malice, they were made because I accepted the opinions of other users more experienced than myself, opinions which I now know that I ought to have questioned. ] (]) 11:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — ] (]) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::As I said earlier in this thread, I am 100% supportive of the new consensus in favour of excluding the previously disputed material.
			:::::::::::Virtually all of my time on Misplaced Pages is spent at COIN and dealing with COI edit requests. I'm not the sort of user who spends their time edit warring over POV fringe material and generally being disruptive.
			:::::::::::So, the last thing I would ever do is attempt to reinstall material where a very robust consensus at RfC has indicated that it should be excluded.
			:::::::::::I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that I can be trusted in that regard. ] (]) 12:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — ] (]) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::Yes, quite so. I have acknowledged my error in that regard in my first response to Isaidnoway, above, re: the very useful input I received from Whatamidoing. ] (]) 17:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Axad, if I read what you wrote correctly, and please correct me if I misunderstand: ''I will stay away from that article because I support the current consensus''. My concern is what if consensus was to shift on that article? ]&thinsp;] 17:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::Apologies if my earlier response was unclear. My point was that I have absolutely no intention of edit warring over the previously disputed material (or any other material) so I don't see what purpose it would serve to ban me from the article.
			:::::::::::::I have only ever made (to the best of my knowledge) 3 previous edits to the article (1 in November and 2 in December?). These were all on the basis of a misunderstanding on a point of policy which has been pointed out to me above and which I have happily acknowledged and accepted. The issue at stake was not that I harbour any partisan view in relation to the content dispute, it was that I edited to reflect the views of other editors whose opinions I respected on the matter in question.
			:::::::::::::I do not see any reason for the community to anticipate that I would made a similar misunderstanding of policy going forwards.
			:::::::::::::Hopefully this clarifies... ] (]) 17:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I've been expecting something to happen around ], whom I ran into several months ago during a ]. What I noticed back in October was that Axad12 seemed to be ''clerking the noticeboard'', making prosecutorial noises, and sometimes unsupported accusations (ex: {{tq|...the existence of COI seems quite clear...}} , {{tq|...in relation to your undeclared conflict of interest...}} , {{tq|As I said, the fact that there was a significant undeclared conflict of interest in relation to editing on Paralympic Australia-related articles was demonstrated some years ago.}} ) towards what they thought of as COI editors (this was about whether ] had failed to adequately announce their conflict with Paralympic Australia, where they've been openly helping as a volunteer on our community's behalf for many years, and after they had just made an ]). I often find such clerking of noticeboards by relatively unseasoned users to be troublesome; Axad12 has 490 edits at COIN, about 12% of their total 3801 edits (but about a third of the roughly 1500 edits total on COIN since September). If you use a hammer all day, you might begin to think that all objects are potentially nails. ] (]) 12:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. ] (]) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think it would be a good idea for {{u|Axad12}} to take a break from ] and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. ] (]) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. ] (]) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::In fairness, the overwhelming majority of my posts at COIN over the last year or so have been simple helpful contributions. The two matters discussed above were atypical and in both cases I've taken on board the advice I was given.
			:::::If (per the figures above) I've been making about a third of all the contributions at COIN over that period then my behaviour would have been reported here long ago if I was either disruptive or incompetent.
			:::::That said, I won't deny that I've been seriously considering retiring from Misplaced Pages over the last two months. The only reason I've not done so is because other users have specifically encouraged me to carry on because they value my work at COIN and on COI issues generally.
			:::::All I can say is that what I have done, I have done in good faith and when I have occasionally erred I have learned lessons. I have acknowledged above that I've made mistakes and I'm grateful to those who have given me advice. ] (]) 15:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard ''is not the high achievement you might think it is''. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. ] (]) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Buster, I know that we've had crossed words in the past so I'm grateful for your understanding and your measured response above. Yes, I deal with many bad faith users and yes it does wear on me sometimes.
			:::::::I don't claim any great expertise in COI matters but I do have the time to dedicate to the project and I've picked up a decent awareness of the methods that can be used to detect and prevent UPE/PROMO etc activity.
			:::::::I believe that in the past when I've been given advice on points of policy I've taken that advice on board and would hope to continue to do so in the future. ] (]) 17:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::This comment is not about you, but you might be interested in it: I've been thinking for years that a rotating duty system might be helpful. Of course we're all ], but we might be less stressed, and get more representative results, if we each spent a week at ANI and a month at RSN and a week at CCI each year than if one editor spends all year at ANI and another spends all year at RSN (and nobody is at CCI – anyone who is looking for an opportunity to deal with really serious problems should please consider spending some time at ]. The few regulars there will be so grateful, and who knows? You might find that you like it). ] (]) 18:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::]? ] (]) 20:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I do think that it's worth zooming out and looking at the article as a whole. Comparing the version from to the makes it obvious that the tone of the article has become vastly more promotional, with much more focus on glowy feel-good aspects that are only mentioned in lower-quality sources (the story about the original creator hand-churning it?) And the ''context'' of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) to the weird {{tq|In 2013, Breyers introduced frozen desserts made with food additives (section above) that were intended to create smooth, low-calorie products. However, the new desserts evoked complaints by some consumers who were accustomed to the traditional "all-natural" Breyers ice cream.}}, which 100% reads like marketing-speak (downplaying the reaction by making it sound like it's just that people loved the old version ''so much''. In fact, the current version doesn't mention Breyer's cost-cutting measures at all, even though it's a massive aspect of coverage.) That doesn't necessarily justify the version above, but it's important to remember that this was originally a one-word mention in a larger list - {{tq|Following similar practices by several of their competitors, Breyers' list of ingredients has expanded to include thickeners, low-cost sweeteners, food coloring and low-cost additives — including natural additives such as tara gum and carob bean gum; artificial additives such as maltodextrin and propylene glycol; and common artificially separated and extracted ingredients such as corn syrup, whey, and others}}, the longstanding wording, is not unreasonable and doesn't really imply that there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol, just that it's an additive. I think the context of that larger shift to a much more promotional tone to the article is significant (and looking over talk, most of the actual dispute has focused on that.) --] (]) 17:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article.]] 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::@], about this {{xt|And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources)}} – I don't know what other sources say, but the ''cited'' sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually ] a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. ] (]) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::(As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at ] instead of here.) ] (]) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::{{re|Aquillion|WhatamIdoing|Isaidnoway}} would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? ] (]) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::I don't mind, but my contribution to this thread is relatively minor. ] (]) 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			====Thanks, and a Diddly Question====
			I would like to thank ] for providing the background and content information. I also have a possibly minor question for ]. They edit-warred to try to stop the RFC on the content, and said that there was an {{tq|exceptionally serious abuse}} of the ] process. I may not have done enough background research, but I don't see where they have identified who has been the paid editor or undisclosed paid editor, or what the ] content is. If there has been paid editing, who has done it, and have they been dealt with? ] (]) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Robert, probably the best single overview of the COI issue is given in this post .
	:::::I welcome the block it seems to have cooled things down and the talk page is being used. However, given the heated comments are still being exchanged it would be premature to remove it now. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 09:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:My impression at the time of the events, and subsequently, was that the activity was designed to distort the COI edit request process. I still feel that what happened re: the COI edit requests was irregular but I note that no other user seems to have supported me in that regard so I've not taken the matter any further. Similarly, while I felt that those events had a bearing on the RfC I now accept that the RfC relates solely to the content matter specifically under discussion. ] (]) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I find your characterization of events inaccurate. "we have the resubmission of the request to remove the disputed material in a COI edit request thread here "
			::But this was not a resubmission. was to remove a list of ingredients (including propylene glycol) which was sourced to a blog and which the COI editor says is outdated and doesn't reflect current ingredients. Meanwhile, the link you give as an example of "resubmission" was the COI editor requesting the removal of . Both requests involve propylene glycol, but they are clearly separate requests concerning separate content.
			::We want COI editors to propose changes to talk pages. The fact that this COI editor, apparently frustrated by a lack of responses to their requests went to the to request someone look at their edits, and then went to an active participant of said Wikiproject and requested they look at their requests, is not suspicious or abnormal. And I think it's highly inappropriate how Axad12 argued at length on the talk page that User:Zefr was "cultivated" by the COI editor "to do their bidding". I support other editors in recommending Axad12 take a break from COI issues. ] (]) 00:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I'd just like to stress here that I only linked to my post above because Robert McClenon asked for the background to the COI element. I was not trying to re-open that issue or to request that any action be taken on that issue. I have already accepted that there is absolutely no support for the position I adopted there. ] (]) 04:00, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::This doesn't answer my question. The link is to a conversation between ], ], and administrator ]. The links from that conversation show that there is antagonism between Axad12 and Graywalls on the one hand and ] on the other hand. They show that there is discussion of ], but they show no direct evidence of ] editing by any editor. They don't answer who is said to be a paid editor making edit requests, aside from the fact that paid editors are supposed to make edit requests rather than editing directly, so I am still not sure what the issue is. I haven't seen any evidence of abuse, let alone of {{tq|exceptionally serious abuse}} that warranted edit-warring to prevent an RFC. ] (]) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The paid editor is ] who is open and transparent about their COI. The edit request which began this episode was when Inkian Jason ] where they pinged ] about having uploaded a photo of the company's logo and asking if they would be willing to add it to the article. Secondary to that they also asked about the appropriateness of the recently added propylene glycol content. The COI issues centered around whether Inkian Jason "cultivated" Zefr by pinging him to remove the added propylene glycol text after they had ] about the various ingredients used in the ice cream (which included propylene glycol). ] (]) 05:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Proposal 2: Article Ban of Axad12 from Breyers===
	::::::Well, seems coherent, since it was you who proposed the indefinite block. Additionally, I'd like to remark that the talk page has been profusely and uninterruptedly used to discuss on the details of Gibraltar's capture as of the . Cheers. ] (]) 10:06, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			(Proposal 1 has been lost up in the early postings.) I propose that ] be ] from ] and ] for six months. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' as proposer. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. ] (]) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite ], an ] with Zefr, and a ] on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? ] (]) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::The purpose of the counter proposal was simply to indicate that I have only good intentions going forwards and I am happy to demonstrate those intentions upon pain of the strongest possible sanction. Evidently I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking, as I'm aware that eyes will understandably be upon me going forwards.
			*:::As I've said before, I'm a good faith user and I'm amenable to taking instruction when I have erred. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that without being subject to a formal ban. ] (]) 05:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on {{tq|q=y|pain of an indefinite site ban}}. "A rose by any other name" comes to mind here. Your voluntary adherence to the terms of the proposal would be indistinguishable from being compelled into adherence by threat of an indef. If you still want this course of action, fair enough, I just don't think it'll do what you're envisioning. ] (]) 05:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I really don't recommend that, Axad. Sure, take a break from that article if you want to. But it's really easy to forget about a dispute years later, or even for a company to change names and suddenly you're on that article without knowing it. ] (]) 04:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::For clarification, I would be happy to undertake voluntarily any measures that the community may suggest and upon pain of any sanction that the community may suggest. I believe that there is value to undertaking such measures voluntarily because it allows one to demonstrate that one can be trusted.
			*:::Also just a brief note to say that in about an hour and a quarter's time I will have no internet access for the next 12-14 hours. Any lack of response during that period will simply be for that reason and not due to a wilful refusal to communicate. Hopefully I have indicated above that I have been happy to respond to all questions.
			*:::No doubt matters will progress in my absence and I will find out my fate upon my return. ] (]) 05:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' as less stringent than what Axad has proposed above within this section, but still prevents further disruption. ] (]) 06:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::The talk page discussions weren't being productive, mediation kept losing ground as whenever it appears agreement was near, the goal posts were moved. Also the outbreak of edit warring and increasingly bad tempered comments helped no one. As soon as one article was blocked, disputes seemed to break out elsewhere. It might have been my suggestion but it took an admin to accept it as reasonable and all credit to EyeSerene it appears to be working. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 14:38, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' because {{u|Axad12}} seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. ] (]) 08:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose'''. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. I also oppose Axad12's counter proposal. --] (]) 10:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' Given Cullen328's comment. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' per above. I just don't see a need for such strict measures. ] (]) 16:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' the formal sanction, but I do support Axad12s voluntary sanction = {{tq|I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr ... I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking}}.]] 22:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Proposal 3: Article Ban of Axad12 from COIN===
	Keeping it short, because there is ample evidence on the talk pages etc ] shows up with an agenda of promoting Spain on related Gibraltar pages whenever there is tension, as there is now over the waters issue. Read the talk pages and you can see in one place he refers to the Spanish inhabitants as 'Gibraltarians' {highly provocative, it only refers to the current ones) and in another place denied he did. He also frequently me a liar, which is uncivil.
			Clerking at COIN seems to have given ] the idea that everyone whom they don't know is probably a paid editor, and something has given them the idea that they can identify "exceptionally serious abuse" without providing direct evidence. I propose that ] be ] from ] for two months. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	He was previously banned for stalking and causing trouble about Gibraltar articles. Adding a number of Spanish non-entities to the main Gibraltar article '''is a tactic designed to provoke trouble, which is precisely why I raised it here.''' Gibraltar is more than 'a rock' it is the home of 30,000 Gibraltarians who are still being harassed by their neighbour in relation to a 300 year old irredentist claim and although being attacked in cyberspace is preferable to hot cannonballs, its still not what I think Misplaced Pages should be about. Asserting that is unhelpful.--] (]) 13:25, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' as proposer. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that {{tq|everyone whom don't know is probably a paid editor}}. The overwhelming majority of my contributions at COIN are simple constructive contributions and the matter described above is highly atypical. ] (]) 04:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' because {{u|Axad12}} seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. ] (]) 08:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose'''. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. --] (]) 10:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' Given Cullen328's comment. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I would prefer it if Axad12's voluntary commitment was to stay away from ] rather than the company article in particular. It is very unhealthy, both for Misplaced Pages and for the particular user, for anything like a third of the edits on any noticeboard to be from any one user. ] (]) 15:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' this is a good idea, and not vindictive. It will do Axad12 some good to get away from the COIN for awhile, and get out there and roam around Misplaced Pages and see where else they can contribute constructively.]] 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I think a formal ban is unnecessary. Axad has done a remarkably good job of articulating a positive response to this incident, and it's to his credit that he has reacted so constructively under such pressure.
			*:I also think it's good for everyone to try something different on occasion. I think it's easier to walk away for a bit if you're sure that others will step up to fill your place. So with such proposals (not just this one), I'd love to see people saying not only that they support giving someone a break, but also that they'll try to step up to help out in that page/process/noticeboard for the length of a ban. It could be as little as checking in once a week or answering the easy questions. Who is willing to actually be supportive in practice? ] (]) 20:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::People will fill the space. WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensible. ] (]) 20:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::It's only for two months, it's a good thing to get away and get a breath of fresh air, and yes, his response has been positive, but even he admits in the Breyer debacle, he was relying on other editor's opinions in evaluating the disputed content, so getting away from the COIN desk for a couple of months, and getting some experience in other areas of the encyclopedia will be beneficial, if and when, he returns to COIN.]] 22:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I don’t want to derail the voting process here, but a couple of points in relation to COIN…
			*:::(Apologies for the length of this post but I feel the contents are relevant.)
			*:::1) It has been observed elsewhere that “COIN has no teeth” (forgive me for the absence of a diff but I think it's a commonly acknowledged idea). I've discussed that issue at some length with ] and they've acknowledged that there is (in their opinion) insufficient admin oversight at COIN and that too many threads have historically gone unresolved without action being taken against promo-only accounts (etc).
			*:::Star Mississippi has encouraged me to refer such cases to admins directly to ask them to intervene. I’ve been doing so over recent months and this has significantly improved positive resolutions on COIN threads.
			*:::If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there. Thus, while I acknowledge Whatamidoing’s earlier point about cross-training etc, and the points made by other users, there is an underlying unresolved issue re: admin oversight at COIN, which might also be resolved via some kind of rota or by a greater number of admins looking in from time to time.
			*:::I’ve not consciously been clerking, and I certainly don’t aspire to be “the co-ordinator of COIN”, but there is something of a vacuum there. Consequently I’ve often posted along the lines of “Maybe refer this to RPPI?”, “Is there a notability issue here?”, etc. etc. in response to threads that have been opened.
			*:::I absolutely accept 100% that, in terms of experience, I’m probably not the best person to be doing that – but I have the time to do it and I have the inclination, and in the absence of anybody else serving that role I’ve been happy to do it. But, as I say, really this is an underlying unresolved issue of others ''not'' having the time or inclination rather than an issue of me going out of my way to dominate. What I'd really like is if there were others sharing that task.
			*:::2) Also I'm not really sure that the extent to which I perform that sort of role has any real link to me making assumptions about whether COI users have good or bad faith motivations. On the latter distinction I think it's fair to say that I'm usually (but admittedly not always) correct. There have also been occasions when others have been asking for action to be taken and I've been the voice who said "no, I think this is a good faith user who just needs some guidance on policy". I hope that I'm normally speaking fair in that regard.
			*:::Most of the accounts who are taken to COIN are recent accounts who wrongly believe that Misplaced Pages is an extension of their social media. Most accounts who fall into that category are advised along those lines and they comply with policy or, sometimes, they just go away. Then there are the repeat customers who are often clearly operating in bad faith and where firmer action needs to be taken. I'm conscious of that distinction, which seems to me to be the single most important point when dealing with COIN cases. I've not been adopting some kind of hardline one-size-fits-all approach or characterising all COI activity as bad per se. However, more admin oversight at COIN would certainly be appreciated, if only so that there were a wider range of voices.
			*:::Thus, in an ideal world I think I would continue to be allowed to operate at COIN, but as one of several regular contributors.
			*:::Apologies for the length of this post but hopefully this is a useful and relevant contribution. Please feel free to hat this post if it is considered wildly off-topic. ] (]) 03:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::This comment just reinforces my support position that a two-month break is a good idea.]] 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::], all I can say is that if Misplaced Pages is looking for people with the time and motivation to dedicate to the project, and who are amenable to taking instruction, then here I am.
			*:::::If I’ve been felt to be overly keen to contribute in a particular area then fair enough. I’m just not sure that a formal ban is the way to go about resolving that. ] (]) 05:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::Good grief, it's only two months, not a lifetime, I've taken breaks form the project longer than that, and guess what, the place didn't fall apart, and neither will COIN if you take a small break, formally or voluntarily. You claim - {{tq|If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there.}} I just don't believe that to be true, because as Phil Bridger points out - ''WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensable''.]] 06:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::I really don't wish to argue, you've expressed your view and that's fine. However, the point of my long post above wasn't that "I am critical to COIN". The post was simply intended to highlight the fact that there are very few regular contributors at COIN and to express a hope that a wider range of contributors might get involved (following on from earlier related comments by Whatamidoing). That would be healthy all round, regardless of my situation.
			*:::::::Also, when I've seen similar situations arise in the past, good faith (but over-active) users seem to usually be given the opportunity to voluntarily take steps to allay any community concerns, rather than being handed a formal ban. I'd just be grateful for a similar opportunity. ] (]) 06:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Apologies for the delay. I cannot provide a diff either as I can't recall where we had the conversation but acknowledging that what @] attributed to me is correct. There are simple blocks that are sometimes needed, but there aren't as many eyes on COIN to action them. I believe I've found merit to any Axad reported directly to me and if there were any I didn't take action, it was due to bandwidth as my on wiki time has been somewhat limited over the last six months. As for the merit of this report, I am not able to read through it to assess the issue so it would not be fair of me to weigh in on any element thereof. ] ] 14:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' I have read through this long, entire discussion. I'd just like to point out to Axad12 that, to me, it's kind of like you are saying what you think we want to hear so it's hard to know how reflective this incident has caused you to be. I think it would be a mistake for you to think you only made mistakes regarding this one article and instead reconsider your approach to the entire COI area. Sometimes "the consensus" is not correct and can violate higher principles like NPOV and V.
			:I'll just mention that the COI area has caused us to lose some invaluable editors, just superb and masterful editors who were on their way to becoming administrators. They devoted incredible amounts of time to this project. But their interest in rooting out COI and pursuing UPE caused them to completely lose perspective and think that they were a one-man/woman army and they took irresponsible shortcuts that led them to either leave the project voluntarily or be indefinitely blocked. It's like they fell down a rabbit hole where they began to think that the rules didn't apply to them because they had a "higher calling" of getting rid of COI. This lack of perspective caused us to lose some amazing editors, unfortunately, but ultimately they were damaging the project.
			:You seem like an enthusiastic editor and I'd rather not see the same thing happen to you so I recommend you cut back on your time "clerking" COIN and just make this task one of a variety of areas you edit in instead of your primary activity. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Liz, thank you for your comments. I welcome your perspective and I'm not unaware of the dangers that you highlight.
			::I think this is now day 5 of what has been a rather gruelling examination where I’ve co-operated to the very best of my ability. Most of the material under discussion has related to a series of regrettable misunderstandings where I’ve openly acknowledged my errors and would now like to move on.
			::Therefore I’d be grateful if, following a period of reflection, I be given the latitude to continue my activities as I think best, taking on board ''all'' the very helpful advice that I’ve received from multiple users. At this moment in time I'm not sure exactly what that will look like going forwards, but it will involve a very significant (perhaps complete) reduction in my concentration on COI issues and much more time spent on improving articles in non-COI areas where I've previously contributed productively (e.g. detailed articles on specific chess openings).
			::If I subsequently fall short of community expectations then by all means bring me back here with a view to imposing extreme sanctions. I do not think that that will end up being necessary.
			::I have only the best of intentions but I must admit that I'm finding this prolonged process psychologically wearing. I therefore wondered if we might bring matters to a swift conclusion.
			::I am genuinely very grateful for the thoughts of all who have contributed above.
			::Kind regards, ] (]) 08:27, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Hey, all: This thread's over 100 comments now. Can we please stop now? ] (]) 08:59, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Oppose'''. Sanctions are intended to be preventive, not punitive. At times Axad12 can get too aggressive, and removing the RfC template was one of that. Other issues were also raised but unless these issues continues, formal sanctions are unlikely necessary. ] (]) 17:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			==Complaint against ]==
	:Not I feel a helpful interjection at this point. While you may or may not be right about a particular editor, that does not give you the right to deny that Gibralter has a history prior to the installation of the current regime. After the Norman Conquest, England never went back to being a Saxon country, but that doesn't warrant removing Edward the Conqueror, Harold Godwinson et al from a list of notable people from England. ] (]) 15:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			{{atop
			| result = There is no merit to the report against GiantSnowman. There is a rough consensus against, or at the very least no consensus for action toward Footballnerd2007 based on the mentorship proposal put forth and accepted and no further action is needed here. ] ] 02:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
			{{Notice|1=See ] below. |heading=This complaint has been withdrawn.}}
			<s> Good Morning,
			I am writing to formally lodge a complaint against ] for repeated violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on personal attacks (]) and casting aspersions (]) during a .
	::Please read the articles ] and ] The Spanish period is included. What I am complaining about is adding articles about insignificant people to justify including them as 'notable' just because of their nationality. --] (]) 00:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			Throughout the interaction, GiantSnowman has engaged in behavior that appears to contravene Misplaced Pages's behavioral guidelines, including but not limited to:
	:: Elen, thank you for your statement on the content issue of this dispute. However, I've got a direct question, that is therefore related to administrator intervention (something that Jehochman has mentioned previously). You've made a request previously: "I would appreciate a cessation of the personal attacks". Although I've tried to stick to your strong advice (and I think that I've got it) I see that personal attacks (against me, as usual) are the 90% of the content of, for instance, Gibnews edition: "there is ample evidence on the talk pages etc ] shows up with an agenda of promoting Spain on related Gibraltar pages whenever there is tension", "in '''one place''' he refers to the Spanish inhabitants as 'Gibraltarians' {highly provocative, it only refers to the current ones)" (mind that Gibraltarian in Spanish, "gibraltareño" does not have such connotation, in which he says "Gibraltarian is problematic when it is applied to the Spaniards living in Gibraltar before 1704, there is tension related to the term caused by the claim that the people living in Gibraltar are not the ''real'' Gibraltarians", outside that context, where is the problem in using it '''once'''?), "He was previously banned for stalking and causing trouble about Gibraltar articles" (I was banned for breaking the 3RR, something that I've never done again and that, as Atama's points out above, is what Justin and not me has been the one getting closer breaking 3RR), "Adding '''is a tactic designed to provoke trouble, which is precisely why I raised it here.'''". Finally the usual deliberate misquote of my words about ] which has been duly explained (simply by offering the whole quotation). Is that fair? Is ] suspended in here? Should I just simply resign myself? --] (]) 22:43, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::], just curious but is using a gratuitously offensive analogy considered a personal attack? Can we just stop it as agreement seems near? '']'' <small>'']''</small> 23:55, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::The truth is out there on the talk pages. --] (]) 00:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I don't think the comments of ] are particularly helpful here. ]'s stated aim on his user page is to edit ]-related articles. He seems to have adopted a ] attitude in his editing patterns. I have no idea how he justifies that somebody born in ] after 1704 is not Gibraltarian, but that is what he has done here in what he describes as a "minor edit". Edits like that are non-neutral and show all the symptoms of nationalist POV-pushing. Surely, considering the huge number of articles on en.wikipedia, Ecemaml should be able to find articles to edit here that do not involve Spanish-British conflicts/controversies. ] (]) 20:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			'''Casting aspersions without evidence:'''
	::::::Ecemaml actually states in his user page that he is currently focused "''on the creation, expansion and neutralization of Gibraltar-related articles''". I can't see what's wrong with that. Regarding ], you may want to read the quoted article and/or this , for instance. His edits may show all the symptoms of nationalist POV-pushing (or not), but you can bet they are reasoned and properly referenced. And at the end of the day that's the only way to avoid subjectivity. Cheers. ] (]) 22:01, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			* GiantSnowman repeatedly accused me of engaging in disruptive behavior, suggesting ulterior motives without providing any verifiable evidence.
			* For instance, accusations of using ] to generate responses without concrete proof.
			* Statements like “You are a liar and cannot be trusted” and other similar assertions lack civility and violate the principle of ].
			'''Aggressive tone and unwarranted accusations:'''
	::::::Mathsci, thank you, ] hits the nail squarely on the head. I'm glad that someone independent has finally recognised it. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 22:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			* The user's tone throughout the discussion has been hostile, escalating to direct personal attacks:
			* Referring to me as a “liar” multiple times.
			* Suggesting that I have been “deliberately disruptive” without presenting any factual basis.
			'''Violation of ] and ]:'''
	:::::::And here we go again... ] (]) 22:25, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			* Misplaced Pages encourages editors to respond constructively to newcomers' efforts. However, GiantSnowman’s behavior has been dismissive and accusatory, discouraging participation and creating a hostile editing environment.
			As an administrator, GiantSnowman is expected to set an example by adhering to Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies and fostering a collaborative environment. However, their actions in this instance fall far short of the standards expected of administrators, which further exacerbates the seriousness of this issue.
	Reading this row i've noticed that in comparison with ] and] Users ] and ] have remained pretty civil in their conversation in the face of somewhat aggressive replies. From my own experience with justin and gibnews i've found if you don't agree with them then your either a troll or a nationalist or anything but someone who doesn't agree with their opinion.--] (]) 16:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			I understand that discussions can sometimes be contentious, but I believe there is no justification for violating ] or ]. I respectfully request that administrators review the linked discussion and take appropriate action to address this behavior.
	== How do others deal with unresponsive editors? ==
			If any additional information or clarification is needed, I am happy to provide it. My intent is to ensure a respectful and collaborative editing environment for all Misplaced Pages contributors.
	By unresponsive I mean not using edit summaries, talk pages, etc. In this case it is {{user|Yongle the Great}}. I moved ] to ] - the first time simply explaining in the edit summary that this was what was used in the sources I could find, the second time going into some detail on the talk page as well as posting to the editor's talk page. He's reverted me both times. Now he's created ] and ] which are again naming convention problems. And ] with no link to ] and which is on unnecessary fork from that article (he's copied the text from perhaps New World Encyclopedia, so it may be from an earlier version of ]. I'll notify him of this discussion, perhaps that will draw him in. Ironically I asked him for help with another editor creating unreferenced Chinese history stubs who is also unresponsive. Thanks. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 06:39, 30 November 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Experimental solution-- This seems to be a good case for just-finalized-yesterday new CSD-A10. I put it on ], as it literally meets the description word for word. Almost too easy. Trial by fire is always good. ...If the A10 is declined it's still more than appropriate for normal deletion process. The other two creations, when combined, seem tricky. They're redundant, meaning only one of the 2 exist...... at least with the ] is that formm. Because I'd like to AGF for now on it and the notability I can make no fair decision on, my opinion is that it's acceptable to have that there as a stub, even if it's an article version of a category. Since it has no formatting I can't start to guess what the intention was. This is far from an official opinion, but on the assumption that ] will need to grow and prove notability , for the time being... since it's just a list right now, same as the function of the template, CSD-T3 likely matches... however, I'm going to go with just removing it from the pages with a normal edit including a link to this in the edit summary. as an explanation.
	:Since the 'Guards' article is going to have to be largely expanded and presumably articles for the other 3 redlink'd entires has at least some kind of chance of later use there's no extra point to deleting
	:I'm looking at it this way-- the article can grow and might end up with all 'Guards' without separate branching articles for each. The template is, until the ] page is substantially enhanced ''and'' there are justifiable separate article for each entry that would be there, the template is entirely meaningless. Need to post some tidbits a few other places concerning this and I'll check again a bit later. If you (and author, too!) could give statements on what to do with the Guards article and template, please do! <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 10:27, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:One thing we don't do is assume good faith indefinitely. If an editor is editing against consensus and good faith attempts have been made to communicate with them, via edit summaries, their talk page, article talk pages, etc and they won't answer after a reasonable time, then their actions have become disruptive. There could be a variety of reasons they might not respond, in the past I've had editors who come from other language wikis to insert stuff but create some kind of a problem and continually revert it, but don't speak english. If you think this might be the case see if you can determine if they speak another language and find a user to translate, or use google.--] (]) 11:44, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::Indefinitely? Of course not, but for a user without a bad track record and before any of the "questionable" content has been reviewed there's no reason to change the AGF push while the process is going on. Incidentally, decision of my A10 nomination was a redirect to the Government section of the parent article without any content changes needed. Good learning experience. ...And yea, if it's endless non-responses to requests for reply that can start to wear on good faith as well.
	::My extremely unofficial way to test AGF in random conflict is similar to how 3RR is violated. Original actions were onfounded? -1AGF credit. Apparent unwillingness to discuss or at least explain at some legth a rationale for those actions? -1 more. In this case, if the user in question has still been contributing to the encyclopedia and ignored our request here, or has deleted the delivered courtesey message of the ANI off their talk page, well, -1 is "3AGF" and I'll start looking at things a lot more firmly. Naturally, extreme events can skip or extend the system. Also, if I'm coming in to a dispute fresh even if 10 involved parties are at 3RR with final warnings on harassment and civility, since they haven't been uncivil to ''me'' they get one shot at a good impression at least. About the situation on the renamed article-- could make a redirect on the opposing page and ask for a lock on it? Naturally, an admin would want pretty overwhelming evidence that it is the "correct" version, or if deciding this run itself out, disruption and incivility warnings would swiftly become more justified since any other options appeared to have have been exhausted. <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 12:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			Thank you for your time and consideration. </s>
	This user isn't doing anything obviously wrong, unless everything they are doing is a hoax. Leave them alone. My quick look at ] indicates the capitalization is correct. It is a title. ] (]) 12:22, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:The user is not using edit summaries and not communicating. They aren't referencing their articles. I don't think everything they are doing is a hoax and I'm glad you responded on the renamed article, all I wanted was a justification for the spelling. But when I make a change that I explain and get reverted with no reason given, go to their talk page and to the article talk page and they still ignore me, that's wrong and leads to edit warring. I still think that ] if it is worthy of an article needs an unambiguous title (more than just a capital 'G') and that we need to get the editor to start using edit summaries. ] (]) 15:07, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			] • ] ⚽ 12:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:IMHO, unresponsive users are the ''most frustrating''. What I've learnt to do? is ignore 'em back. ] (]) 15:21, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:: Total agreement with above. Even if you have totally opposing viewpoints you can usually bend some things around to find a little middle ground the majority of the time if you talk. If persons never communicate, you can't actually do a thing. I believe it's the matter of just blindly moving an article for what seems like the fun of it that starts the trouble, and though not "wrong", it isn't encouraging. The lack of communication is after that is possibly elevating it all since it's pretty hard to justify what you did in direct opposition to another editor when they never speak. Looking at their edit count... 6 total usertalk messages? I'm not having high hopes on the "team player" angle. That'll make this a bit harder. Edit history as a whole suggests a ] type of feeling, but I don't think with all that much malice. I don't know. Something feels amiss and it's hard to drop that feeling without any statement. There's more for me to look into ... <small>wow I can't believe I forgot to sign before</small> <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 00:41, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::It's not that I don't trust the very large and mostly awesome contribution history, it's if the efforts or opinions of anyone else cannot don't seem particularly compatible once encountered. In virtually all this user's high edit count articles there were highly unopposed, on occasion lone and extremely similar IPs hopping along. A few times a number of edits were done in opposite directions the user's next edit was section blanking. Yea, more research. Still really can't do anything for now besides trying to beg for comments. Even worse than someone avoiding communication?
	:::''Un-responsiveness'' can be considered disruptive, IMHO? ] (]) 16:05, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			:The discussion I raised was at ], now closed. I raised concerns about this editor, who has (in brief) - undertake botched and inappropriate RM closures; re-factored other editor's talk page posts; randomly nominated another user with whom they have never interacted before for RFA; and messing with my user space draft. None of that was the conduct of a new editor here to learn the ropes, and I wanted a second pair of eyes.
	::::It's interesting that he knows enough to start a stub with an 'unreferenced tag' such as ] but there's no link to ] - which actually does a better job of covering the same thing. One of my concerns is that he is creating articles which are more or less duplicates of existing articles. Hopefully he'll be back on line in a few hours and start communicating here. ] (]) 16:37, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			:In the course of that discussion, it became highly suspect to multiple users that this user has been editing with LLM. They denied using Chat GPT and, when questioned further, refused to answer. That is why I said this user is a liar and cannot be trusted, and I stand by that assertion. ]] 12:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Pinging other editors who were involved in that ANI discussion or have posted concerns/advice on this user's talk page - {{ping|Liz|voorts|Folly Mox|Tiggerjay|Extraordinary Writ|Tarlby|The Bushranger|Thebiguglyalien|Cyberdog958}} - think that is everyone, apologies if not. ]] 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thank you for your speedy response. Now let other admins add their point of view. ] • ] ⚽ 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Given the closed section above - which was closed for a very good reason - I'd suggest that coming back to this page to complain and using an LLM to do it is a ''spectacularly'' bad idea. The community only has limited patience when dealing with editors who are causing timesinks for other edits, and I suspect that the section above was your limit. ] 12:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. ] • ] ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::] is worth reviewing. It may already be too late for you to withdraw your complaint, but it's probably worth an attempt. --] (]) 12:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{ec}}Please, any passing uninvolved admin, block the OP now. Not least for using an LLM to generate a complaint that someone accused them of using ] to generate responses. Enough of our time has been wasted. ] (]) 12:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Again, this is mere conjecture. ] • ] ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Continuing to deny the obvious - especially when Tarlby ran your posts through multiple LLM checkers - is really not helping your case. For me, it shows you are not here in good faith and that you absolutely cannot be trusted. ]] 12:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::No, it's called people have eyes. Using LLMs this way is highly disrespectful and frankly disruptive. Boomerang block for ] seems appropriate. ] (]) 12:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::<small>(Responding to the ping, invovled)</small> My perspective regarding LLM has been it really doesn't matter (to me) if you're using various technology tools constructively, such as a spell checker or grammar checker might have been viewed two decades ago. ''However, what really matter is how those tools are used and being responsible for how they're used''. This editor has been evasive in their conversations and generally disruptive demonstrating ] behavior by very peculiar / suspicious ] I've only seen in clear LLM cases. Yet, there is no point in bludgeoning to what degree, if any, an LLM is playing here, but because this is a clear example of ] and failure to follow ] despite many attempts to bring them to this users attention. ]&thinsp;] 17:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::+1 to Phil Bridger. What struck me in the prior thread, over and over again, was how repeatedly evasive he was. "I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT..." "I never made any comment about LLMs in general." "I have no explanation." "Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully." "Which AI detectors are you using?" "The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively." And so on, and so on, and so on. Footballnerd2007 has been given chance after chance to answer plainly, without Wikilawyering or weasel-wording, and has instead stuck to the tactic of deflect, deflect, deflect. I don't know where Footballnerd2007 got the notion that the Fifth Amendment was the law of the land on Misplaced Pages, and that no boomerang can touch him as long as he admits to nothing. Let's just disabuse him of the notion. ] 12:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Retaliatory BS; this should be closed immediately. ] ] 12:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== CBAN proposal ===
	:::::Communication is ''the'' foundation of collaboration, and absolutely fundamental to the way we work here. If they simply ignore all attempts to engage them, the only recourse we're left with is to block them indefinitely with an explanation as to why; this either forces communication or they find something else to do. I've left them a note explaining this, so hopefully we'll get some sort of response. If not, then we can think about taking other action. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:07, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			* I propose a ''']''' for Footballnerd2007, appealable no sooner than six months from now (and then once per year thereafter), alongside a ban on using LLM's which would remain in effect until specifically contested. At the time of writing, Footballnerd2007 has only 142 edits, a ''significant'' number of which are right here at WP:ANI. They are clearly a massive ] time sink. I urged Footballnerd2007 to withdraw this complaint and warned about ] and that clearly didn't land. I think it's time for everyone else to get back to regular editing. --] (]) 12:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*'''Support''', obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. ]] 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. ] • ] ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? ] 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. ]] 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::I'll respond to this in depth later today. ] • ] ⚽ 13:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::I concede that I've been backed into a corner and now I need to do the right thing, stop with the defensive act and own up to my mistakes which I'll do in my statement later this afternoon. ] • ] ⚽ 13:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. ] (]) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::::I had my legal head on with the philosophy "defend until you can no more" - I now concede on reflection this is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages and that my actions were not the right way to go and for that I will take full responsibility in my statement. ] • ] ⚽ 13:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::It's too late to withdraw now. You have to take responsibility for your behaviour. ] (]) 13:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*{{ec}}<s>'''Support'''</s> - on top of what's been posted on this thread, FN2007 has ] by archiving without a link to the archive on the fresh talk page, without responding to ]. They also ] to add things they didn't say when closing a RM discussion, and haven't responded ]. These things alongside their LLM use (and subsequent wikilawyering "technically I only said I didn't use ''ChatGPT''" responses), refusal to listen to good advice, and everything else in this topic, I think a community ban would be a good idea. ]&nbsp;] 13:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC) ''Update'' - striking support for cban, I think footballnerd's recent responses and CNC's offer of mentorship indicate that we may be able to avoid it. ]&nbsp;] 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. ] • ] ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? ]] 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::I will go back and thank her for that. Because I had been advised that your actions could have violated WP policy and thought it would be a good way to deflect the blame, in heinsight it was absolutely the wrong course of action. I would like to draw a line under this whole sorry situation and move on with the reason that I joined once my statement has been published and the subsequent discussion has concluded. ] • ] ⚽ 14:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:(another {{ec}} To clarify, I don't think Footballnerd is doing anything malicious or deliberately trying to time-waste. I think they are a misguided new bold editor who unfortunately doesn't listen to advice and is stubborn to self-reflect. If this cban goes ahead I urge them to appeal in 6 months with a better understanding of how wikipedia works, with a more cautious editing style and more acceptance of community opinions. ]&nbsp;] 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::I am not being malicious, there was only one motivation for my actions - wanting to help.
			*:*::My comments on this and the above thread have been ill judged.
			*:*::As for the ban, I'd like to ask that I be spared at this moment in time in view of my above comments and the concession statement that I will be posting when I return home. ] • ] ⚽ 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... ]] 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::Because I'm posting from my phone and I'm not at home. When I return to my PC later today I'll make the statement. ] • ] ⚽ 14:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*<del>Support CBAN.</del> Using a chatbot to generate discussion then denying it when called out is already deeply contemptuous. Turning around and filing a chatbot generated revenge report for people not believing your lies about not using a chatbot? Words fail. ] (]) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) {{small|{{ins|edited 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC); see below.}}}}
			*:*:FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. ] • ] ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. ]] 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. ] • ] ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. ]] 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::::Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. ] • ] ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::::Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. ]] 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::I admit that I did, I just saw the line of "I didn't use ChatGPT" as an easy 'get out of jail card'. ] • ] ⚽ 14:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::While that might be technically accurate when you answered that you did not use Chat-GPT, you were intentionally being deceptive in your answers multiple times. It might be slightly different if you were asked ''specifically about Chat-GPT'', however multiple times you were ''specifically asked about the broad term of LLM''. Your current claim of, {{tq|never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT}}, falls on deaf ears because it is clear that you were dodging the questions, and indeed intentionally addressed only Chat-GPT for the purpose of deception instead of honesty. ]&thinsp;] 17:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::'''Soft-struck''' prior comment because now I see you have admitted to such activity prior to my comment above. ]&thinsp;] 05:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:{{a note}} for ], just to inform you there is a ] that you may not have seen. I was about to send generic pings to !voters of this section, but it appears all other editors are aware of this proposal already (or voted afterwards at least). This isn't intended to influence your decision, only to provide you updated information. ] (]) 23:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::{{rtp}} Withdrawing support for CBAN in light of ] combined with acceptance of mentorship by {{u|CommunityNotesContributor}} (thanks for the ping: I've been offwiki).{{pb}}{{Ping|Footballnerd2007}} I'm sure the point has got across, but please respect your colleagues here. Using an LLM (of any brand) in discussions is disrespectful of our time; assuming we won't notice is disrespectful of our competence. Please engage with the spirit of other people's communications, rather than with the precise words chosen. Misplaced Pages is very much unlike a courtroom: we're here to work together on a shared project, not to win arguments against each other. I look forward to your earnest acculturation. ] (]) 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*<s>'''Support''' as this behavior is clearly ]. </s>] (]) 15:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' CBAN as this editor has caused a monumental waste of the volunteer time of other editors, which is our most precious commodity. This is an encyclopedia, not a robot debating society. ] (]) 18:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. First choice would be an indefinite block. Despite the user's sudden acts of contrition, I don't trust them. I don't see them as an asset to the project. As for their recent statement that some think is AI-generated, my ''guess'' is it's a mixture, maybe we should call it AI-assisted. However, I wouldn't support an indefinite block if it were just that. What preceded the complaint by GS and their conduct at ANI was egregiously disruptive.--] (]) 18:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' - I say give them some rope. There is good discussion going on below, and I don't think anything is gained by blocking an editor who does at times add value. We can always revisit this later - and presumably the action would then be quick and obvious. BTW, I thought we all used AI to some extent - certainly when I misspell words like "certainyl" I then accept the AI in chrome changing the spelling. Or even improving the grammar if I turn on those options. Also ]'s numerous draft articles in his userspace always confounds me. I've asked them before to write these articles in draft-space where there can be a collaborative effort, rather than their userspace where they won't let anyone else edit. ] (]) 00:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Haven't voted in this proposal yet, am abstaining for now per trying to avoid advocacy as potential mentor. The two points I will however question is: would a CBAN solve these issues or postpone them until a later date? Would a 1–2 month mentorship more likely bring about the results of reform or failure much sooner? If we want to talk about ] as we have do so, it might be worth ] the time wasted in not mentoring a newish editor into the folds of the encyclopedia. ] (]) 00:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Nfitz - that is a nonsense, editors can and do edit my user drafts whenever they want. My issue was with them moving one into mainspace. ]] 16:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose:''' CommunityNotesContributor has offered to mentor him, and the mentoring conditions have been accepted. Let's see what comes of that, and we can always revisit the subject of a ban after CNC reports back. ] 04:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strong oppose''' - A mentor has been provided. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support mentorship''' offered below by CNC, but I still have significant concerns, which I expressed after FBN's response below. ]&thinsp;] 18:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' as too soon. An alternative for mentoring was proffered instead.]] 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			===MENTOR proposal===
	::::::Oooh nonono, indef blocks over just some article content disputes are so depressing when a solution might be something as simple as getting a NPOV reweite and both users agreeing to never touch (one of?) their contested articles again. Socks? Both agree that they're open to random CU checks vs users that edit suspiciously. No... Too easy, right? A few days ago and ANI came up about a mountain. It could not be agreed what it's "official" location was. I suggested they just add every imaginable category to it that was factually correct so no one could complain a POV bias. I mean. It's ''all'' there. I later learned the pair had issues deeper than that, but it's never good if someone is so fixated on "victory" (in an encyclopedia!) that they'll fight so hard over one mountain that even the idea of an overload with somewhat redundant categories to make it as neutral as possible to allow some relaxation... and still not find that extreme amount of a NPOV from an uninvolved party, knowledgeable random responder editor...? That's not good enough? To offer as much neutrality as possible to deliberately put it away for awhile for discussion later... that mountain is important than it's worth ignoring the good faith of others and very unusual attempts to try to help... it's just hard and discouraging for me since since it about flags things as "wasted time" it leads me to even more time researching to try to figure out why this is common to this user. I will never understand how only one article-- no matter how much it might mean to you if you're the largest contributor-- is worth the sometimes high risk of a complete removal from Misplaced Pages. And stillllll waiting for a comment over here... <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 00:41, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			{{quote|] commitments to uphold by ] for a suggested one–two month period. Mentor: ].
	:::::::You can't get both users to agree to something if one user refuses to communicate, that is kind of the point here. You absolutely cannot work with someone if they refuse to discuss any edits, especially if what they are doing goes against consensus.--] (]) 05:35, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Unfortunately this particular editor is still not responding but still editing. ] (]) 06:44, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::: My own technique for dealing with non-responsive editors, is I assume that they are just completely unaware that anyone is trying to communicate with them. Sometimes they don't know about the history tab, and the orange bar "you have new messages" is just a permanent fixture on their browser, which they ignore because maybe it looks like an ad to them. As for reverting, I've talked to new editors who were genuinely perplexed why their "new" information suddenly disappeared from an article, so they just assumed it was a software glitch, and re-added it. If it "disappeared" again, they re-added again, and sometimes would get quite persistent (and frustrated) as to why the software kept "losing" their edits. They didn't know that others were reverting them, they just knew that the article was strangely changing when they weren't looking. ;)
	::::::::: When push comes to shove, usually it's a 3RR block that'll finally get such an editor's attention. Like someone will add {{tl|cn}} or {{tl|cleanup}} or AfD tags, the non-responsive editor will remove the "bizarre" templates (which from their point of view just appeared out of nowhere), then other editors add the tags back... Eventually the non-responsive editor gets blocked, and then, finally, they may notice that they have a talkpage. But in the meantime, unless they're really adding bad info, or charging ahead completely unaware of a talkpage consensus that they're violating, I'd say to just leave them be, in their own little wiki-worlds. :) --]]] 07:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			# Abide by all policies and guidelines and ] to advise given to you by other editors.
	::::::::::The problem there is when it's an article no one else is interested in, and 3RR works both ways - so unless it's a copyvio or BLP issue, this approach could get messy. ] (]) 08:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			# No page moves (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval from mentor.
			# No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it.
			# No more dishonesty, being evasive, or using AI of any kind in discussions due to laziness.
			# Avoid commenting on all admin noticeboards (unless summoned). If there is a problem, seek advise from mentor.
			# Avoid reverting other editors (either manually, part or in full), unless obvious vandalism.
			}}
			This goes a bit beyond original requirements, and the last two are effectively preventative measures to try and avoid problems arising. An editor involved exclusively on footy articles has limited to no need for involvement in admin noticeboards. ] (]) 17:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Noticed your latest on their talk page. Elonka's suggestion definitely has its merits, but copyvio can't be taken lightly (and I don't read her post as suggesting that it should be). If they don't respond this time, I think intervention is in order. A short block would be preferrable, but typically I go for indef on evidence of persistent copyvios after a warning and with no response to that warning. ]<sup>]</sup> 12:52, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	{{outdent}}<br />
			:I agree to those principles and am grateful for the mentorship opportunity! ] • ] ⚽ 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	User has uploaded a number of images that might need to be checked. The general logic used on the file pages has no violations due to image age (as in, the 700+ year variety), but things uploaded don't particularly look like scans or images out of a museum. License and copyrights aren't listed on a few... though a polite random editor fixed a few. Some are linked as from a museum in China, and I have no idea what their copyvio standards are... others look digitally altered/enhanced with no original for comparison, but again I have no idea whatsoever on their copyvio, or how we deal with it overwrites in any way because of our server location, etc. <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 13:45, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			::Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. ]] 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Wait...''' ''GRRR...'' Ooh, now I'm grumpy. It's on to premeditated disruption besides the copyvio text matter now. One of the user's new articles was something seemingly CSD-able under the brand new A10, and yesterday I listed it . Responding admin made me realize that most A10 decisions could be redirects (I felt very dumb) and changed the article without new content to a redirect to location I'd earlier specified . ...User apparently didn't remotely care about this despite the warning appearing on their talk page and an edit summary mentioning the appropriate change of the article to a redirect, later putting all the old text back in . Does this could at the "magic bullet" step mentioned about of how usually someone hits a 3RR violation by mistake? Oh, and Dougweller caught this a bit ago and changed it back to what it should have been, though his politely-detailed edit summary wasn't really needed given an official admin article action was reverted without a reason given. I'll let the admin know. ...Reverting an official admin article action related to an incident report without any reason given is bad, right? Why do I get the feeling something is going to happen fairly soon... <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 13:45, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:::Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. ] (]) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. ]] 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. ] (]) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::No bad - let me rephrase if that helps. I am not opposed to mentoring in place of the current CBAN proposal. ]] 18:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			====Discussion====
	:Although they haven't edited since Dougweller's latest note to them about copyvio, they were active since the earlier warnings and have clearly ignored them. That revert of a perfectly valid redirect, again with no attempt at communication, is I think the point at which good faith becomes unduly strained. I've blocked them for 24 hours. They're active enough that they should notice, so we'll see what the response is. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			*Going to chime in here as someone involved in footy related articles. I've reviewed some of the editors contributions, and despite all the issues raised in this topic that are very problematic, the user has seemingly made good contributions to football related articles. I otherwise don't doubt that the user previously edited with an IP (I'm pretty sure which IP this is based on edit histories, but assuming good faith it's not part of this topic and not relevant either so won't bother referencing). I only state this to deflect from suggestions that this editor ''could be'' a sockpuppet, as I strongly don't believe to be the case, instead I suspect about 18 months of low-key editing experience up until now. It's therefore a great shame FN2007 went down this road, even if appears to have now retracted the original complaint. Hopefully they can take on board the requests to avoid controversial edits, especially at other user talkpages and such. I'd like to think this is a case of a user trying to run before they can walk, and if they now pace themselves it could work out in the long-term, but alas the damage has also already been done here it seems. Also as a personal suggestion to the editor, if you're here for football articles, then you should be aiming to stay well away from admin noticeboards as they will rarely ever concern you. Generally there ''should be'' relatively low controversy editing football articles, even if most remain contentious topics as BLP. So if football is your editing remit here, you're doing it very badly by ending up at a noticeboard, equally so by opening this topic, even with your good contributions. I am therefore reluctantly offering to act as a ], if the user can commit to the general policy and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, in the hope of not losing a participant in the under edited area of women's football articles. ] (]) 14:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Yep, a block is the way to go. Yongle's actions are coming across as arrogant. ] (]) 18:45, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			*:Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. ] • ] ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: I'm coming late to this discussion, but from earlier threads it appears that the ] for this kind of problem is a "good-faith" indef block until the unresponsive editor decides to talk to the rest of us. I'd say DougWeller is well within his rights to do that now. -- ] (]) 21:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			*::This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. ] (]) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per ], as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. ] (]) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::That's definitely OK with me. ] • ] ⚽ 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Mainly just everyone else at this point it seems. ] (]) 14:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Should I ping? ] (]) 14:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I gladly and humbly '''accept''' your mentorship offer. ] • ] ⚽ 14:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Just to be clear, this would be a ] offer, nothing more than that. Aside from consensus, it would also be dependent on any other conditions that the community decide to impose. ] (]) 14:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Completely not related but wanting to chime in.
	::::I agree that's normal procedure; this is the first less-than-indef block I've tried in this sort of situation... it was kind of experimental. Because they seemed active enough to notice a shorter block, my aim was to try to provoke some kind of response without the stigma attached to an indefblock (even a good-faith no-prejudice one). However, there's been no response and the block has now expired, so I think my experiment was a failure :) I've now upped the block to indef. ]<sup>]</sup> 21:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			:I admit that at first, as a newbie edit, I was kind of surprised on how @] handled things, and I can understand the perspective that it seems to be in violation of assume good faith, but I’d like to point out that as someone who was in the same situation as @], it’s not really in violation of Assume Good Faith. He just is very organized but tries his best to help others. Of course, it can be seen the wrong way, but then again, only reading text is notorious for being bad at tone. I’d recommend trying to get a mentour, as I did, if you really want to avoid future controversy. I’d recommend FootballNerd to take up CNC’s mentorship offer. ] (]) 14:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::Agree with indef. Though keeping with AGF, there's always a chance that an un-responsive editor ''might'' choose to wait out their block. ] (]) 22:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			::Furthermore, no one is perfect. Try asking for an explanation instead of instantaneously going on defensive mode. That will always help. Be humble. ] (]) 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I have taken up the mentorship offer. ] • ] ⚽ 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). ] (]) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. ]] 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Agreed, @] maybe hold off on pings for now. ] (]) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Alright, sounds good. ] (]) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Per ] I think pings are appropriate now. ] (]) 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as {{u|CommunityNotesContributor}} has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor. ] (]) 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. ] (]) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I'm now home and will start drafting after lunch. I'll send it you before posting it here. ] • ] ⚽ 14:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I see a list of conditions but not an explicit proposal for mentoring. Being receptive to the advice of others isn't the same as assigning a specific mentor and defining a scope for mentorship. Can the proposal be clarified, or else renamed? ] (]) 18:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed ]. ] (]) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Thanks for . I did not read the discussion until after you , so it was not evident that a specific mentor had been named. ] (]) 02:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Response from Footballnerd2007===
	== CarolineWH ==
			Good Afternoon all,
			Can I start by making something unequivocally clear: my behaviour over the past 24 hours has been unacceptable and has resembled that of a lawyer acting in court, trying to defend my actions in an overly strategic way. This course of action was wrong, and I apologise for it.
	{{resolved|] blocked for outing/off wiki harassment --] (]) 18:16, 30 November 2009 (UTC)}}
	{{discussion top}}
	In the interest of full disclosure I am currently engaged in a discussion to which the user in question is party to on several abortion-related articles. Fortunately, the pro-choice side has many articulate users whose opinions I respect and who have been productively contributing to the discussion, Caroline's absence would not detract from its quality.
			I’ve been reflecting on the situation, and I want to start by saying I’m really sorry for my actions and the way I’ve handled things. I know I messed up, and I feel it's important to acknowledge that. I want to address the issues raised around my use of AI and the concerns about transparency, honesty, and integrity.
			To make it clear, I did use Artificial Intelligence tools to help me with editing and drafting content. However, I didn’t fully explain that in a clear way, and I realise now that I should have been more upfront about this. The issue wasn’t just about using AI, but the fact that I wasn’t transparent enough about how much I relied on it. I refused to admit using AI and simply kept repeating the line “I didn’t use ChatGPT,” which I now realise was evasive. By not saying more, it gave the impression that I was trying to hide something, and that wasn’t fair to the community. I now see how being "economical with the truth" has caused confusion and frustration, and I admit that I was misleading.
	Caroline came on the scene as an ] in October. The ip address was initially . After some e-mail correspondence between the user and the CU submitter and little good has followed.
			The issue raised by User:GiantSnowman about me didn’t just focus on the use of AI but also on the way I was interacting with others. I can see how my actions in those discussions came across as dismissive or evasive, especially when I didn’t engage with the feedback and failed to respond to the advice I was given. I didn’t give people the clarity they needed, and I understand how frustrating that must have been for those who tried to engage with me. I admit I attempted to “give them the run around.” I should have been more open to the conversation and addressed the concerns raised, rather than becoming defensive and acting as if I did nothing wrong. This is not an attempt to justify it, but I want to admit that the reason I used AI was mainly due to laziness and an attempt to sound more knowledgeable in order to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy.
	The user wikistalked me for a bit, following me to places as diverse as the talk page of and . After that fun she started back into the abortion articles. Though she later apologized ], she . She and worst of all, has repeatedly for no other discernible reason than that it was removed by editors who oppose her political outlook. In that last one she reinserted the statement that "there are no American pro-life Jewish organizations", this is damagingly false and is in no supported by, or even insinuated by the source. But rather than look at that source, Caroline just punched the revert button. Later on in the same edit she reverted the tense in the sentence about George Tiller to say that he is alive for reasons that I cannot comprehend. George Tiller is very much dead, he has been for a while and we have been embarrassed for things like that in the media., , After I explained, curtly, albeit, the reasons for these changes on the talk page , compromising the integrity of that article to an unacceptable extent.
			I also want to address how I behaved today. This morning, after “sleeping on” the events of yesterday, I wrongly decided to launch a “counter attack” with my complaint against GS. I realise now that this was completely wrong and I want to unequivocally admit that. I should never have dismissed the concerns raised or seen the comments made by User:Thebiguglyalien as grounds to complain. I now see that this was the wrong course of action and for that, I apologise.
	After that, yesterday she filed an ANI on me (withdrawn after a lack of community support) and against policy, she never let me know.
			I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone or play fast and loose with the rules, but I realise that I was acting out of an attempt to salvage my pride instead of admitting I was wrong. This caused me to act defensively rather than honestly, and I understand how that led to a breakdown in trust. I take full responsibility for that. I never meant to cause confusion or frustration, but I can see how I did. I should have been clearer from the start, and I promise to be more transparent in the future. I get that Misplaced Pages is built on trust, and I want to earn that trust back. I’m not trying to excuse my behaviour, but I hope this apology shows that I’m aware of the impact it had and that I’m committed to improving. I pledge that I won’t use AI for WP editing in the future. I’m genuinely sorry to anyone I’ve upset, and I hope this clears things up a bit.
			] • ] ⚽ 16:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Thank you for this. ]] 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::You're welcome, I'd really like to put this situation behind us and move on. ] • ] ⚽ 17:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Well, if that was written without AI tools (GPTzero still says it was 100% written by AI, but it looks a lot more "human" to me than your previous efforts) then you can at least write without them. ] (]) 17:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::To be fair, @], I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... ] (]) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I'm not surprised. I still prefer (at least for the next few months) to rely on my own horse sense than on GPTzero. ] (]) 09:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Same. I don't find GPTzero and pals particularly useful benchmarks. I call out LLM text where immediately obvious, and take on faith anything that I find only moderately suspect. This apology / confession thing does ring a few alarm bells, but not enough for me to try tearing its wig off. Hopefully we'll gain a constructive contributor after all this. ] (]) 12:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{U|Nfitz}}, please quote or diff one such "writing" so I can try it myself. (And ping me, please.) ]] 10:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::It was a bit short, ], but . ] (]) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Well there's something very puzzling going on here. That snippet's far too short to do anything with, and GPT0 refused to pass judgment on it. So I tried something longer of Phil B.'s ({{tq|{{small|I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor.}}}}) and it came back "99% human". ]] 18:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Well, I suppose it's better to be 99% human than 0%. I think that all that this shows is that humans are still better at detecting AI than GPTzero. ] (]) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:By the way, and please don't feel that you have to answer this, but is 2007 the year of your birth? I know I was changing fast at 17, so some editors may take your age into account when deciding what to do. ] (]) 17:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from ]. ] • ] ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Well geez now I'm curious what overlaps with Wikilawyering. ] (]) 13:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies. ] • ] ⚽ 14:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I appreciate the maturity in acknowledging your errors. I’d like to clarify this as it’s something I avoided mentioning.
			:The use of AI is not prohibited but heavily frowned upon. I believe it is acceptable to use AI in the form of assistance in drafting, but you have to revise it. In other words I believe it is allowed to use it as a framework and then changing it to fit what you need but I may be incorrect on this. Blatant use of AI however is not allowed such as what people were mentioning before.
			:<br>
			:English is my second language and as such, I have historically used AI to help me with drafting things and then changing it fully to be in my words so that I’m not completely starting from scratch. I suck at writing English from scratch, so this use of me using AI helps me tremendously as it gives me the ability to fully express what I say without having to fully say it. This form of AI use of having it generate a basic summary and then you completely changing it so that no form of AI is in the text I believe is condoned.
			:<br>
			:I am not sure about the exact specifics of what AI use is allowed but I’d like to point out that I am able to write when it’s my thoughts but then when it comes to having to write stuff within guidelines and manual of styles, I end up tensing up and my brain completely cannot create anything. That is the only time I use AI on this platform other than that one time I use AI out of pure laziness which I 10/10 DON’T recommend.
			:<br>
			:I am not sure if this above is correct so I would appreciate if someone here especially @] clarified if this is allowed or not. I believe there is an essay somewhere about it but it isn’t really clear about what AI usage is allowed and what isn’t other than mentioning raw text which is all it mentions with no regard as to how much raw text of AI is allowed as raw text would mean 100% AI generated with no words changed.
			:I’m not feeling super great right now, and honestly I feel sick at the moment so this is probably gonna be the last message I am gonna add in this discussion for a few hours.
			:<br>
			:Cheers,<br>
			:] (]) 19:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::You are looking for ]. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. ]] 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I was about to begin a reply with "]",{{dummy ref|TOMATS}} but it looks like that month-ago discussion has not yet been closed or archived. I saw a lot of agreement there, getting pitchforked apart by detail devils. A well read closure should help move us forward with the word&shy;smithing. ] (]) 12:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Courtesy pings to increase discussion as the following pings all commented in the sections prior.
			:@]
			:@]
			:@]
			:@]
			:{{ping|Black Kite}}
			:{{ping|Bugghost}}
			:{{ping| isaacl}}
			:{{ping| CommunityNotesContributor}}
			:{{ping| Randy Kryn}}
			:{{ping|Bbb23}}
			:{{ping| Cullen328}}
			:{{ping| Simonm223}}
			:{{ping|Folly Mox}}
			:{{ping| Bgsu98}}
			:{{ping|Yamla}}
			:Sorry for the delay CNC.
			:Cheers, <br> ] (]) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. ] (]) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Please don't send mass ping ] to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. ] (]) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Seconding Isaacl - these pings were unecessary. Editors who wanted to follow this discussion would have subscribed. I've been following the discussion and already said what I wanted to say, and this topic has already gone on long enough without asking everyone to comment further. ]&nbsp;] 07:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::My personal opinion is that LLM content is not able to be brought into compliance with Misplaced Pages copyright restrictions and is highly disrespectful of others in article talk. As such I don't believe there is any place for LLMs and other chatbots in Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 12:12, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Since we're here (at the most visible venue): ] (2023) concludes inconclusively. {{Slink|Special:Permalink/1265594360|Copyright of LLM output}} (December 2024) seems to indicate potential CC-BY-SA compliance varies by which giant tech behemoth's proprietary AI implementation is used. Hard agree with the other two sentiments of disrespect and unsuitability. ] (]) 12:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::That's interesting. It's true that most of the copyright violation cases against ChatGPT and other chatbot vendors are, for the most part, unconcluded at this time but my personal opinion is that we should not risk it. ] (]) 12:42, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Yes, of course, a very good statement of contrition and hope for future editing (hopefully not all AI). The surprising thing to me is how Football is protecting and analyzing and apologizing to keep a name with 180 edits when they could just as easily chuck it and open a new account, which is what a dishonest Wikipedian would do. Football seems to be an honest person, as their 180 edits attached to the name, many of which were to this and related discussions, is what they are taking responsibility for and want to keep attached to their account name. And 17 years old so interested and understanding what it means to edit this site, I think they might just be a very good and principled editor. ] (]) 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' the last change mentorship that has been offered by CNC, as it is the best step forward. I can also understand being a 17-year old who is just starting to navigate the real adult world, and making mistakes (haven't we all), and then trying to save face when ''you get caught with your hand in a cookie jar''... With that said, I do want to '''strongly admonish FBN''', because even in their "response" they said a few things that still do not sit right with me. For example {{tq|I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone }} however, Folly Mox asked about their prior statement of "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering and their age, they said simply {{tq|That comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies.}}. That is in addition to their own statement earlier in the "response" stating that they kept using the phase that ''they didn't use chat GPT'' even whens specifically asked about LLM, and that they {{tq|now realise was evasive}} -- I believe that it wasn't until this ANI that they realized they were being decepitve. I also take great pause at the statement of {{tq|to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy}}. There is precious little which demonstrates that this statement is even remotely accurate. Even in raising this ANI, very few of the instructions were followed. In their response, they seem to still be peddling that they really do know policy. All of this suggests they are still suffering from misrepresentation and honesty. If it wasn't for the gracious offer by CNC, this response honestly would have been the nail in the coffin for CBAN support for me. ]&thinsp;] 18:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== MAB Teahouse talk ==
	this user's shenanigans have already cost the encyclopedia ], to which
	It is possible that this user has productive contributions to make in other fields but nothing good has come of her actions on abortion-related articles and she has caused A LOT of damage. For the good of the encyclopedia, I think Caroline should be topic banned from abortion-related articles. - ] (]) 08:44, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:(We have senior editors? When do I become one?) I have no comment about the pro-choice vs pro-life edit warring, but I do see a problem in calling another editor's workplace to uncover his/her identity. That's entirely inappropriate.--] (]) 09:03, 30 November 2009 (UTC)		I didn't want to, but I one-hour protected the talk page of the Teahouse due to MAB going there. The Teahouse itself is already protected. Obviously they're going there precisely to make things as difficult on us as possible, but I don't know what else to do. ] (]) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Schrandit, please, just drop this matter? First you and Paul came to Wikiquette alerts‎, asking that we help resolve the apparent personal attacks, Caroline promised not to make comments about you that could be construed as offensive in future, problem solved. But no, you then go on to RfC demanding an apology and redaction of a statement, which naturally Caroline gives you. Yet still you seem to be taking issue with the matter, you've now taken it to AN/I to have Caroline topic banned. Not only will that result in you "winning" your edit war, but it will also annihilate any good feelings Caroline has remaining for this project.
	::Through out this Caroline has shown extremely good judgement and good faith, and it has been made clear that she herself has been acting from good faith in all cases. However you seem determined to keep bringing the matter up time and again.
	::Caroline has apologized for the statements she made in regard to you, which is what you asked for. So please accept that apology and move on from the matter, its ''counter-productive'' to keep bringing the issue back up.
	::As for this whole outing accusation. Well, yes, Caroline has phoned someone's work place, and mentioned that she's done as much on wikipedia, if however, we take some time to examine the incident, we can see that Caroline's comment in regard to her phone call was very specific about not revealing the names, numbers or locations, except those freely available on the internet already. Therefore if we punish her for the phone call, we're as good as saying: "all editors on wikipedia must maintain a strict etiquette on and off the project, otherwise they get blocked", since the accusation was about something that she did ''off the'' project, it is completely irrelevant ''to the'' project. Save for the fact that she made a post that basically revealed the following: "I made a phone call to try and find out whether this user could be a certain person; they're not", that reveals next to nothing.
	::Unless we what to become some authoritarian power that dictates over user's activity off the project I suggest that we drop the matter. Kind regards ]<sup>]</sup> 10:37, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::Her on-project activity troubles me as much as her off-project activity. - ] (]) 13:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			:Would it be possible to create a link (or button) that creates a new section on one's own talk page with {{tl|Help me}} preloaded? We could then add this to the page's editnotice. ] (]) 09:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: Just as a note: there is currently an RFC for CarolynWH where the phone call to the editor's workplace is being discussed (and poo-poo'd by a couple of editors), and a long discussion on my own talkpage (including a couple of entries that I removed) about the same issue. I agree that the incivility seems dealt with, but the ]-like phone call to an editor's workplace is highly problematic. (]<span style="border:1px solid blue;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 10:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			::I protected ] for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — ] (]) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::: The phrase ] comes to mind as to the number of places this matter has been discussed, Wikiquette alerts‎, RfC, AN/I, user's talk pages, project talk pages, etc etc. Also, I wouldn't say we've "poo-poo'd" the accusation, we've pointed out why its not a valid complaint, if you just scanned over that and disregarded it as, uh, "poo-poo'ing" then maybe that explains why its become rather hard to communicate effectively. ]<sup>]</sup> 10:54, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			:::OK, I've fixed that. — ] (]) 12:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			Looks like today they're hitting every help page they can find. ] (]) 09:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::<small>In relation to "MAB" issues, is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of when the notoriously difficult Queen Mab speech was pretty much hit out of park in 1997's ]? ] (]) 🦘 12:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
			::::::<small>I think it's just you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:21, 9 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
			== Kosem Sultan - warring edit ==
	::::I'm not worried about outing, as that hasn't been the case, but would you like it if people from the internet call you at work for no other reason than to check who and what you are IRL? Calling someone's workplace you have a dispute with on Misplaced Pages could be considered real-life harassment. For reference, ] was banned for such actions.--] (]) 10:50, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			Hello, I am terribly sorry if I write this in wrong place, but I really don't know what place would be best to report this.
	::::I see Bwilkins was thinking the same thing.--] (]) 10:52, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::: Can we stop bringing up this thing about Ecoleetage, he was banned for an incident that was '''''unrelated''''' to the real-life harassment (sock puppetry, I think...). And this incident is completely different from that one anyway, ]<sup>]</sup> 11:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Nope. Ecoleetage ''was'' banned for ] by calling his work place. Pastor Theo was banned as his sockpuppet. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this phone call. What was the purpose? ] 11:06, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::(ec)No, the harassment was exactly what he was banned for. Saying, "sock puppetry, I think" gives me the impression you have put no effort at all in looking into that matter. I will not stop bringing up that matter, simply because you find it undesirable to discuss it. I think the parallels to that issue are relevant.--] (]) 11:10, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::(ec with Atlan) Hmm, maybe he was, still, the two are very different (Caroline and Eco). The purpose of the phone call was to work out whether an IP user was the same person as a previous sock master, something that interested Caroline as she had previously been accused by Schrandit of being a sock of the user. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:11, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::That seems unnecessary. Why not just file a request for checkuser? Frankly, I'm appalled by this user's actions. ] 11:23, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::: If I told you I'd shot a man in Reno (]) you'd probably be appalled too, and rightly so, however, that gives you no grounds to block me. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:28, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::Apples and oranges. And you complain about the lack of relevance to the Ecoleetage case?--] (]) 11:33, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Haha, the main point is; off wiki actions shouldn't have an impact upon our presence in the project. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	(unindent)We have checkuser for such investigations, which allows everyone to remain anonymous. I think you trivialize the phone call too much. Yes, Ecoleetage's call was pure harassment, while Caroline was investigating an IP editor. I still think that's taking things too far, and it creates a chilling effect to other editors. But that's a matter for debate.--] (]) 11:27, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:What do we want to achieve here? A block is meant to be preventive not punitive, although I still think what Caroline did wasn't something terrible, I doubt she'll be doing it again. So what constructive gain is there by discussing the issue like this? ]<sup>]</sup> 11:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::"''It already happened, there's nothing to prevent''". You can get away with anything but blatant vandalism with that reasoning. I wasn't arguing for a block by the way, I'm merely discussing the appropriateness of calling someone at work.--] (]) 11:56, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::That wasn't what I said. What I said was more alone the lines of: "the user won't do it again, so forget the matter", if the user was likely to do "it" again then you could block them as a ''preventive'' measure, if they are not likely to do it again then any blocking becomes ''punitive''. Anyway, I'll be leaving the discussion for a while, I may get back this evening. Kind regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 12:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::PS, I didn't mean to imply that you were calling for a block, and I do realise that you're just discussing the matter, my question however was: "will anything constructive come out of the discussion"? To which I personally think the answer is no. Kind regards ]<sup>]</sup> 12:07, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::Well, I don't really like discussing here, while there's an Rfc about basically the same issues going on right now. In that sense, I agree with you. As for what a block would prevent: I can understand if editors Caroline works on articles with, have concerns about such intrusive investigations. We don't want an atmosphere where people have to worry about their personal lifes being investigated, simply because they take an opposing stance on abortion related issues. You may assume she won't do it again, but the die has already been cast, I feel.--] (]) 12:26, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::The user account has been active less than a month, although she did edit anonymously for some time before that. In that time she's been willing to issue an apology and retraction based on community feedback at WQA. At my request she immediately withdrew the WQA she posted regarding Schrandit. It seems reasonable to assume that she would agree to refrain from making phone calls relating to Misplaced Pages if asked. Would such a commitment be sufficient to allay your concerns? If not, what would? ] (]) 13:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	(outdent) Can we agree to limit the scope of the discussion to the phone call? ] (]) 13:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	: What is problematic to me is that based on the posting on my talkpage, CarolineWH still fails to see that making the phone call was a problem - they continue to justify it. The defence and minimalization of the phone call by others is just as bad. If, when presented with a clear and similar case, the user still "doesn't get it", how do they move forward? (]<span style="border:1px solid red;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 13:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::I think the edit-warring and the re-insertion of false material need to be discussed as well. - ] (]) 13:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::: All phone calls to people's places of work should result in immediate indef blocks. It's chilling, and wrong, and failing to take immediate action will spread more nonesense beliefs like spitfires that this is acceptable. ] (]) 13:49, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::: I concur, there seems to be a misunderstanding regarding what preventative means, it is not only so that the user in question does not cause further direct damage but also to ensure that other users are aware that such actions has consequence. Tracking down an IP editor in order to gain satisfaction within wikipedia is by no means 'off-wiki'. ] (]) 14:05, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			I was editing page of ] and I noticed this user: 109.228.104.136 changed phrase in infobox "spouse: Ahmed I" into "consort of: Ahmed I", claiming 'they were never married'. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=K%C3%B6sem_Sultan&oldid=1263148667
	* Can somebody provide a reason not to block CarolineWH indefinitely for ]? Why shouldn't she remain blocked until she agrees not to attempt to do such a thing? This does not look like an edge case. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:30, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			Because of this, I added information they were married and sourced this with book. However, this person keep revert to their preffered version of infobox. I asked them on Talk page about providing source. When I pointed that their source not disputes or even misinnterprets mine, they deleted my talk. They did this twice and even claimed I 'vandalized' Kosem's page.
	Hi, all. Now that I know that this discussion exists, I'd like to contribute.
			As inexperienced user I was few times into edit warring, as I did not know how exactly rules are there.I try to be careful now to not make disruptions and while there is instruction to undo undsourced informations, I am not sure if I am allowed to undo their - unsourced - edition, as I already did this few times. I would not label changing 'spouse' for 'consort of' as vandalism per say, but I want to protect my edition and I wish this person provided source so we could each consensus. You can see our - now deleted by them - discussion here:
	I'll say three things briefly, then answer any questions. First, I have no intention of making any phone calls in the future. Second, I am absolutely certain that my actions in no way threatened the privacy of any editors and therefore was not an example of ]. Third, please note the context of this accusation. ] (]) 15:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			1) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267744138#Kosem_Sultan_was_wife_of_Ahmed_I.
			2)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267749540#Kosem_was_wife_of_Ahmed
			(I do not know if I linked this correctly, but both shound be find in history of talk page of user with today date)
			I hope it can be seen I was willing to discuss things and I even proposed to merge ours versions, if only this person provide scholar source - which they didn't, as Tik Tok video they linked contardicts statement from my book (see details in discussions).
	: Ok, here's the context: your supporters feel that the phone call to someone's place of business does not belong in the RFC. Fine then, based on the section of ] that I have quoted both in our discussion on my talkpage, and I believe I left it in the RFC, this is an issue that requires immediate intervention - if there is indeed action to be taken. Indeed, when I became aware of the situation in the RFC, I ''should'' have brought it here myself. You have had about a full day since the end of the interactions on my talkpage to reflect - based on the above, I'm not sure you used the time wisely. (]<span style="border:1px solid red;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 15:37, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			I also want to add that blocked user called Cecac https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:K%C3%B6sem_Sultan#Marriage
			used exactly the same argument, as historian in Tik Tok provided by 109.228.104.136. I do not know if 109.228.104.136 and Cecac are the same person, but I think it should be checked.
			Finally, I do not know how much video made on Tik Tok should be considered as reliable source, so I am not sure how to act in this situation.
			Again I apologize if I leave this message in wrong board - there were multiple issues so I decided to list them all. Please notify me if I am allowed edit Kosem's page and brought back informations, as I really want avoid going back-and-forth and do not want to be blocked myself. --] (]) 14:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::A couple of weeks ago, I ''voluntarily'' revealed the fact that I did this research, while carefully avoiding any revelation of private information. My motivation was to demonstrate that yet another checkuser conviction was mistaken.
	::Weeks passes without a whisper, until the now-departed ] digs it up to try to add substance to an unpersuasive RfC/CU that he and Schrandit launched. There was no haste or cause for it, just an ax to grind.
	::Now, I said outright that I won't be doing this again, and whether or not you agree with the action, there was never any potential to harm anyone, much less an intent to do so. All this talk about a "chilling effect" is well-meaning but simply mistaken. No matter how you add it up, the situation is one that requires calm reflection, not urgent action, because there's a risk of knee-jerk reaction without actually understanding what happened.
	::Now, I'm going to ask you, Bwilkins, the question you refused to answer before, and which you deleted from your talk page. Bwilkins, how could my phone call have caused anyone to lose their job? ] (]) 15:57, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			:I want to add that I informed user 109.228.104.136 about this reprt, however they delete this from their Talk page. ] (]) 23:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::(@ CarolineWH) Do you understand why we would be concerned with your off wiki sleuthing, and how that could have a chilling effect? In other areas it would be bad enough, but considering that you are editing abortion-related articles (some of which likely document the murders or stalking of abortion providers) makes it more so. ] (]) 15:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			::I will point out that consort is generally considered synonymous with the word spouse. Elizabeth I's mother, for example was officially the "queen consort" of the united kingdom. ] (]) 19:32, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			== IP persistently removing sourced content. ==
	:::(ec):It was uncalled for sleuthing. You clearly indicate investigating the workplace of either Spotfixer or Phil Specter, even if it eventually didn't turn out to be their workplace. Had it happened to me, I would consider such intrusive investigations into my private life just to one-up me in a content dispute, harassment. Despite saying you won't make such phone calls in the future, I see no indication that you understand how serious and inappropriate it was.--] (]) 15:44, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::The ''"I have no intention"'' phrase is what sports coaches famously say when asked about their interest in another coaching position...the day before the big announcement that they're changing jobs. Take this user's carefully nuanced response, add it to the complete inability/unwillingness to recognize that the previous act was harassing and inappropriate, and you have one very problematic user here. People who cannot conduct themselves properly in hot-button topics should simply be removed from the topic area. ] (]) 15:55, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	=== Blocked ===
	I have blocked CarolineWH indefinitely. This shouldn't have even been discussed this much. Completely inappropriate behavior; no real indication that the editor realizes why it is wrong. ] &#124; ] 16:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:Hi Tan, I wonder if you could do me a favour? Please quote the precise part of policy that Caroline violated. Kind regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 16:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			] has been persistently well removing sourced content from the articles ], ], ], ] where the content discusses the involvement of people under the age of 18 in those subjects, on the basis of some of the people involved also being over 18. Glancing at their edit history you can see that they have ]red on all four of those articles, although they may have stopped short of breaking 3RR in most cases they are continuing to be disruptive and acting as those they are ]. In they changed the content to state that Burusera products are legal for under 18s to sell, despite clearly understanding that they are not - I would say that amounts to deliberate disruption/vandalism. ---- ]-'']'' -- 19:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::], specifically this: "Off-wiki privacy violations shall be dealt with particularly severely.".(let wiki-lawyering commence...)--] (]) 16:29, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			:<small>Courtesy ping, {{ping|Cassiopeia|KylieTastic|p=}} also have tried to warn this IP user.</small> -- ]-'']'' -- 19:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Don't lean too hard on that phrase, it might break. The problem here is that the moment ] is mentioned everyone gangs up for a witch hunt, when ] has actually been violated, then maybe its fair enough that they do, however, on this particular occasion the policy has not been violated. Starting with this accusation of privacy violation, at no point did Caroline actually intrude upon the person who she was trying to "find out" about. She rang a work place, and asked if anyone by the name of the person she was looking for worked there. They didn't, thus, no ones privacy was violated. Now you're probably thinking: "Okay, but what if that person had worked there?", the answer to which is: they don't, so it doesn't matter. (also note that Caroline has said she won't do it again)
			::While they don't leave edit summaries except for the section headings, it looks like some of their edits were removing inappropriate content from these articles. Can you provide diffs of edits that you find problematic? Generally, when making an argument that an editor is being disruptive, the OP provides diffs that support that accusation and I don't find the one edit you link to serious enough to issue a sanction. I mean, we are already talking about articles that border the line on pornography. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Secondly, ] states: "''This policy is aimed to protect victims of genuine harassment which is meant to cause distress to the user, such as repeated and unwanted correspondence.''", Caroline obviously ], there was no victim, as the person she was phoning up about didn't actually work there and so her phone call had no effect upon him, and finally, it was a one-off isolated incident, which brings us on to ]: "'' editors are encouraged to ignore or respond politely to isolated incidents''". I request an unblock. Kind regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 16:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			:::It's the ignoring warnings and lack of discussion that's the issue, so pointing to individual diffs doesn't show the whole picture. But to give a couple more specific examples: is deliberately misleading, "High school students include those who are legally 18 years old." is obviously a true statement but doesn't relate to the content being removed - which is about Australia's laws on the matter do apply to adults. . I can't see any instance where they removed removed inappropriate content - rather they seem focussed on removing content that mentions any laws. -- ]-'']'' -- 06:38, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::Pardon me, Carolin recently said that she: "did not ask for anyone by name. I asked about recent hires who were graduates of my schools. In this way, nobody in specific was mentioned. I then hung up and used their automated system to check for any employees named Specter; none were found. So even if he had worked there, the receptionist would not know that I had checked." ]<sup>]</sup> 16:49, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::: Any call to a work place, under any pretense or justification, is harassment in the wikipedia sense and would have the tendency to very much chill the editing environment if tolerated. Indeed, one can almost see the implied threat in the ''innocuous'' call to the office. Maybe the next call won't be so innocuous, hey, if your editing doesn't shape up... The user in question continues to prattle on about her "intent" (as you appear to be doing) as if any of the rest of us should care. We don't. Until she provides a statement along these lines (I welcome her to copy paste this) she should remain indef blocked. "I understand that calling that person's place of work was wrong. I promise I will never, for any reason, try to call the workplace or home of another wikipedia user again. I now understand that there is never any justification for actions like the ones I recently took. I understand that i will be indefinitely blocked if i break this promise and that i won't be given a second chance to come back."] (]) 16:47, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::As someone driving by I must say I agree with Bali. Spitfire's dependence on the fact that CarolineWH didn't violate anyone's privacy exempts her from having ''tried''. Whether she was succesful or not is irrelevant, the fact remains that she tried to discover the identity of another editor. I, for one, would not feel comfortable knowing that other editors are allowed to investigate my background with impunity. It does not directly violate any wiki policies but I'm not sure it should be condone (or even embraced as your postings seem to indicate). Just because she failed doesn't negate the attempt. ] (]) 16:54, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::::(ec)As a completely uninvolved party, I completely agree with Bali Ultimate and Padillah. There is no wiggle room when it comes to this type of privacy violation. Tan's block here is sound. --]<sup>]</sup> 17:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::RE: to Bali; Firstly, the use of the word: "prattle" only causes to further inflame the situation, please be careful when dealing with sensitive matters. Secondly, you're supporting the block on the possibility that she might call someone's ''work'' place again (not "''home''", some please don't use that word), however, you say that you're willing to let the matter pass if Caroline says she won't do it again, therefore I suggest you observe her previous comment in this discussion; "Now, I said outright that I won't be doing this again." ]<sup>]</sup> 16:56, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::RE: to Padillah; I don't embrace violations of policy, please don't suggest that I do. Another thing I don't embarace is editors getting unfairly blocked just because someone yells ]. you suggest that Caroline tried to find out another editors identity, this however is false, what Caroline actually did was try to find out if and identity she already had matched a certain editor. she did this in an extremely careful and sensitive manner, see . You also say that just because she "failed doesn't negate the attempt", yes, she "failed" (or from her point of view succeeded in showing that the editor was not working at that place), however, as she didn't find out anything, there was no harm done, no harm done provided she doesn't make this a pattern, which she won't (see above comment: "I said outright that I won't be doing this again.") Regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 17:03, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::::First, I don't mean to suggest anything except what your continued justification and defense of these actions suggests: that you condone the actions. Since you are, in point of fact, condoning them and justifying them, it's really the only conclusion I am left with. As for her failure, that is secondary to her attempt. As RaseaC points out below Attempted Murder is still a capitol offense. Just because you suck at shooting doesn't mean you weren't really trying to kill. You argue that she already had the identity she was just trying to match it to an editor - for me this statement calls into question the very basis of this discussion. If you are trying to equivocate the discovery of someone's identity by "matching" vs discovering someone's identity via other means then we have a serious problem. There should be no circumstance under which one editor is allowed to investigate the real life identity of another. No amount of wikilawyering should allow any amount of investigation under any circumstances. That this isn't painfully and obviously clear to both CarolineWH and yourself is a great concern to me and, I hope, to others. ] (]) 17:19, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Yes, but if you meant to miss and you did, then that wouldn't be a problem, particularly if you fired the shot into the ground at your feet (although a lot of people would probably argue that you'd been trying to hit the person, but really really really sucked at shooting), Caroline didn't aim to find out where the editor worked, she aimed to find out where they did not. As I said, I don't condone a violation of policy. The problem is that policy is debatable, and I have not seen proof that Caroline's actions were a violation. Kindest regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 18:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Spitfire, enough! Caroline is not going to be unblocked because of anything you say here. Padillah, I think you should feel free not to have to prolong this ridiculous argument (just a thought). ] (]) 18:05, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::Elen, enough! Spitfire is not going to shut up because of anything you say here. Although, I'm starting to think that maybe its time to let this die, I can see that no one is going to change their minds, and as your argument is the one supported by an administrator (who apparently reckons that consensus doesn't matter: "While consensus isn't a vote etc etc etc, this rings in at Caroline and Spitfire vs. Everyone Else.") there's not a lot to be gained. Regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 18:15, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	Yeah seriously, as soon as you go off-wiki and start looking for people you've crossed a line and don't belong on the project. The 'she didn't find them' argument is ridiculous, if I go and shoot my neighbour but miss I'm still going to have some questions to answer. The editor obviosuly doesn't understand that what she did was wrong and that is probably the most worrying part of all of this, for that reason alone it is probably best that they stay away from WP for a very long time. It's all well and good trying to educate people, but when the issues are as fundamental as Caroline's I think the only possible route is an indef. I've been following this discussion and have been '''amazed''' at how long it's been carrying on, Tan, or any admin, should have issued a block a while back. <b>]</span><sup>]</sup></b> 16:58, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	: Spitfire -- If you don't like being accused of prattling then stop prattling. As for caroline - real, extended grovelling, and iron clad evidence that she understands why calling the home, work place, church, former school, etc. etc. of any wikipedia editor is very clearly ''wrong.'' Then promises that she will never, ever try to track, either by phone or internet records or any other means, the real life identities of any wikipedia editors. Perhaps an essay making it clear why these sorts of violations are so harmful is in order as well. All i've seen on her talk page so far is surliness and self-justification. Again, a prolonged, full prostration is needed to come back from a violation of trust this serious.] (]) 17:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::Not sure quite what you aim to achieve by having her grovel at our feet? ]<sup>]</sup> 17:09, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:It's a good block. ''Any'' attempt to contact the workplace of an editor with whom one has a conflict &ndash; successfully or not &ndash; is entirely unacceptable. This is a 'bright-line' rule. ](]) 17:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::She didn't have a conflict with the editor, which immediately throws that "rule" out of the situation. Also, she was only trying to see whether or not some one she already knew worked there, her aim was to prove that they ''did not'' work there, not that they did. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:09, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::Who are you, her wiki-lawyer? You are sure doing a lot of poking and prodding around the edges of policy, looking for gaps to exploit. The moment someone attempts to "investigate" another user in this manner, that ''crosses the line'' into harassment; there is no wiggle room here. This approach to editing in what is supposed to be a collaborative project is simply cancerous, and should not be tolerated n the slightest. ] (]) 17:15, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::No just an editor who doesn't like to see people unfairly accused of things they didn't do. You people sure do a lot of "assuming" about policy that isn't actually there, apparently just so that you can justify blocking people. The policy actually states: "''editors are encouraged to ignore or respond politely to isolated incidents''", I haven't seen any proof that this is a pattern, and certainly no proof that policy justifies a block, ]<sup>]</sup> 17:26, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::It doesn't matter. While consensus isn't a vote etc etc etc, this rings in at Caroline and Spitfire vs. Everyone Else. There's no need to convince Spitfire of the appropriateness of this block. Let's all move on. ] &#124; ] 17:18, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::"etc etc"? As an admin you kind of have a responsibility to justify your blockes, I am left in extreme doubt as to whether you can when the only response you've made is "There's no need to convince Spitfire of the appropriateness of this block". Regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 17:29, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	While I indicated at the RfC that the forum was inappropriate for bringing up material not related to the dispute, I believe the block is completely appropriate. I also attempted to discuss the phone call privately and found that Caroline was either unwilling or unable to understand why the behavior was such a serious concern. Checking up on an editor in real-life, no matter how well intentioned, is completely inappropriate. I'm very concerned that Caroline is continuing to defend her actions; she doesn't appear to realize the seriousness of her intrusion. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:Might help to look up: ]. She has already shown that she appreciates how serious any ''actual'' off-wiki harassment is, and she has said she won't do this again, even though she doesn't think it qualifies as harassment, which shows that despite her own feelings on the matter, she is prepared to let you (the community) be the judge of whether or not certain behavior is appropriate. Kindest regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 17:14, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::I'm sorry but I don't believe that's the case. She's just called her actions and repeatedly stated that she didn't break any rules; there's just nowhere we can go from there. That's some serious stubbornness despite copious feedback; her actions were inappropriate, full stop. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:19, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::Please explain in detail how the phone call and attached edit harmed anyone? Not how it ''could'' have harmed them, but how it ''did'', regards ]<sup>]</sup> 17:33, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::: One last try Spitfire. While i can't demonstrate harm to any particular person, that sort of action is very, very harmful to wikipedia's editing environment. In theory, a productive editing environment is the most important thing here. Actions like hers are corrosive to this most important thing.] (]) 17:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			== Edit warring on US politicians around the ] ==
	::::I can, easily. It has irrevocably damaged my ability to trust that I can edit articles like Abortion without fear of being investigated, outed or harassed. How's that? I don't say this to "win" the argument, I say this as an honest response to the question. You are looking in one specialized spot and saying "There's no harm" but you are failing to see the effect these actions have on other editors. Do you not see that condoning the investigation of editors in Real Life, however innocuous it may seem to you, tells other editors that they are subject to the same consequences? Don't you see the harm in this? ] (]) 17:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			{{atop
	::::: Well, no, what I am saying doesn't deserve a block is when the investigation has no harmful consequences and none are intended (provided there's an understanding that future investigation ''will'' lead to a block), what would deserve a block is if the investigation did have consequences, intended or not. So really, Caroline's edits will only make people feel that they can investigate people so long as they don't find anything out and they don't aim to, and no one (except under cicumstances like this incident regarding Caroline) really sets out to investigate people not intending to find anything out. If that makes sense. Regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 17:53, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			| result = The Lord of Misrule is blocked for edit warring and there is no merit to their retaliatory report. If disruption returns when the block expires, escalating sanctions can be considered. ] ] 04:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Fantastic block - why anybody is arguing this is completely beyond me. Contacting an editor's workplace is completely out of line - This is one of those situations where even a "sorry, I won't do that again" wouldn't be good enough. What Caroline did completely crossed the line and then some - the only answer is to swiftly show her the door and make sure it's securely locked. ''']<sup>See ] or ]</sup>''' 17:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			}}
	::For the last time: she's said she won't do it again! ] states very clearly: "''Blocks are intended to reduce the likelihood of ''future'' problems, by either removing, or encouraging change in, a source of disruption. They are not intended for use in retaliation, as punishment, or where there is no current conduct issue which is of concern.''" However, you seems to be justifying the block on the ground that what Caroline did at the time was shocking, however, she ''won't do it again'', so the block is ''punitive'', ]<sup>]</sup> 17:47, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|The Lord of Misrule}}
	:::Outing, or anything that resembles outing, is one of those situations where it doesn't really matter if the editor says they won't do the said crime again - the fact of the matter is that they've already done something which most people consider to be the most serious thing you can do here. I'm not going to get into the intricacies of whether not she outed the editor, but it does come under that umbrella. Is this is punitive block? I don't think so because of the seriousness of the charge. ''']<sup>See ] or ]</sup>''' 17:52, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			I'm getting caught up into an edit war with {{userlinks|The Lord of Misrule}} regarding the so-called "Gaza genocide" on ], ], and ]. Rather than continue, I am extricating myself and bringing their conduct here. From my attempts on their talk page, including the Arab-Israel, BLP, and American politics (post 1992) contentious topic warnings, are going unheeded. &ndash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;(]) 20:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::The "seriousness of the charge" has no effect on whether or not a block is punitive. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:55, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	:A bit late to the discussion, but I'd like to quickly state my support for this block. Any sort of off-wiki investigation is completely inappropriate, over the line and indicates a severe lack of propreity. ]''']''' 18:47, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	Late to party but absolutely support this. I said at the RfC that this was an immediate block rather than a discuss first. Calling up the person you believe to be another editor's employer/professor/priest/mom because you want to find out who they are, is right out. ] (]) 18:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			:Any so-called "commentary" has been removed, ie "complicity" and now just facts related to the subject and topic remain, yet here we are. Cheers ] (]) 20:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I '''am leaving the discussion'''. I'm sorry that the discussion couldn't have had a more productive outcome, in my opinion a punitive block is about as far from productive as is possible. But, as I said, its clear that no amount of discussion is going to change the matter, and so I'm regretfully going to have to leave it as it stands as the discussion is becoming counter-productive. Kind regards to everyone involved, and thanks for your time and opinions, both of which are valued, ]<sup>]</sup> 18:15, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			:I will note, per the International Criminal Court, any material support for War Crimes, like funding or vetos allowing war crimes to continue in the UN Security Council, are themselves War Crimes https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Elements-of-Crimes.pdf Cheers ] (]) 21:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Unless you can find a RS to back that up, that would be OR. ]] 21:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I just reverted TLoM's most recent , {{tq|has vetoed 5 ceasefire agreements.}} when the source says {{tq|vetoed five resolutions, including three calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, one Russian oral amendment, and a proposal for full Palestinian membership in the U.N.}} The '''three''' ceasefire vetoes are already documented in the article. Elevating this to a separate section and misrepresenting the source violate ]. I question whether TLoM should be editing BLPs. ]&nbsp;] 21:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I find this editors removal of information vs an easy correction of the word "agreement" to "resolution" troubling at best and biased at worst. This section is ripe for expansion as more scholarly works will be forthcoming. It seems the editor would rather delete this information rather than correct and provide more information. Cheers ] (]) 21:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::If {{tqq|more scholarly works will be forthcoming}}, then ] when ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:@], they ] by @] on the 17/02/2024. Should this perhaps be best addressed at ]? '']''<sup>]</sup> 21:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::No need. Blocked for two weeks for edit warring on three pages in violation of ]. If it continues after the block, please simply let me know on my talk page (or re-report here and feel free to notify me). ] (]) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Will do. &ndash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;(]) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Given the thread below I think we should discuss a topic-ban here and now, rather than going thru AE. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 21:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{ec}} Perhaps. I was going to initially bring this to 3RRNB but decided to bring it here. &ndash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;(]) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Removal of legitimately sourced information concerning ongoing Genocide in Gaza ===
	Since 1) this is winding down into a pissing match between one fan and everyone else, 2) the user in question is unable to find fault in their off-wiki stalking actions 3) the user is {{diff|User_talk:CarolineWH|328829874|328829841|no longer contesting}} the block, can this be marked resolved? ] (]) 18:10, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=Retaliatory. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{userlinks|Bbb23}} has removed legitimately sourced information regarding the subject's involvement with the ]. Cheers ] (]) 21:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:What subject? ] (]) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::@], see the directly above discussion. '']''<sup>]</sup> 21:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			{{abot}}
			== Tendentious editor ==
	'''Comment''' Spitfire, I think you should reflect on how it is that community consensus seems to be behind this block. The likely outcome of appealing to excerpts of policy is unlikely to result in having the block overturned. I agree that perhaps language regarding the unacceptable nature of trying to deduce the workplace or identity of an IP editor should be spelled out more clearly. It is unfortunate that it should be necessary, as most hold it to be self-evident. I also do not see this as a punitive block but rather one aimed at protecting wikipedia from further harm. Allowing attempts at breaches of privacy, which I believe CarolineWH's actions constitute, would be to invite harm to wikipedia and its editors. ] (]) 18:12, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			Single purpose account {{Userlinks|NicolasTn}} is reverting again . They want to expand the lead which is disputed. They have been warned not to edit war. They claim to "restore deletion" most of which introduced by them to the lead, but in the process removing other sourced information and adding back errors. They know where to discuss edits but avoid doing so as much as they can, so I don't think enough discussion exists to initiate dispute resolution. . ] (]) 23:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Yeah, I see when I said "let wiki-lawyering commence" up there, it was taken as an invitation to do so. Clearly consensus is for the block to remain. This discussion isn't going anywhere else from there.--] (]) 18:14, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			:It looks like this article page history has been an edit war between the two of you. You both responded at ], why not try to continue that discussion or, eventually, try ]? Neither of you have had made much use of the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I agree. There's pretty much no way that calling someone's employer, even without bringing their name into it, can be justified. --] (]) 18:20, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			::I'll just note that this editor, who has only made 51 edits, hasn't edited in 3 days so they may not respond here immediately. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::OK, OK, The matter is over (see above comment), please, please, just leave it? ]<sup>]</sup> 18:22, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			::They would probably respond only after being reverted again by me or the other editor. Since their one and only response, they've left the discussion hanging again while actively editing the article. ] (]) 20:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Move to mark as closed. ] (]) 19:11, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::It has been since 18:16, 30 November 2009 (UTC) Look at the top of the post (this is just a section) ] (]) 19:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	{{discussion bottom}}
			== User:Adillia ==
	=== Waste / CarolineWH ===
	While I do not condone the activity I do not feel an indef ban is the appropriate response. The losing of a potential good editor in a rush to judgment is a waste and does not benefit the Misplaced Pages community. To summarize the consensus position of community as I understand it, the issue is not that Caroline refuses to agree not to repeat the activity but rather that she is defending herself and refusing to take the position that she should have known a priori that making the call was an improper activity. I have been involved since the WQA on 24 Nov and have found Caroline to be willing to listen to advice and counsel when presented in a respectful manner.
	Meaning depends on context, and interpretation of action should be made in that light.
	To start, let's consider the original post by Caroline herself
	<blockquote>
	''I doubt it, since CU is immune to oversight and has no reason to be honest, but I'm sort of proud of myself so I'm eager to brag. I might have very limited computer skills, but I'm tops at research! I clicked a few links here until I got the company name behind the IP (which I won't mention here in case they Google), then found their phone number on their web site and gave them a call. All I had to do to get their cooperation was explain who I was, including my role in the student paper, and say that I was researching where our recent graduates went off to and how they're adjusting to the real world. I didn't say so, but I'm sure the receptionist assumed it was for a story.''
	</blockquote>]
	Note:
	<ul>
	<li>She states her skills are limited. Therefore, saying 'she should have just done a checkuser' presumes she even knew that checkuser existed. This is not reasonable</li>
	<li>She is clearly cognizant of the need to prevent breaches of privacy. She intentionally did not post the company's name and provided a cover explanation for why she was calling. At no point does she mention Misplaced Pages is this account.</li>
	</ul>
	Therefore it is understandable to me to she is unwilling to state that she someone should have known the making a call was unacceptable before being told.
			{{Userlinks|Aidillia}}
	Meaning depends on context. Caroline had gotten engaged in disagreement over Abortion page content with Paularabaster and Schrandit.
	The history here is intervention postings, focused not on the outing but rather on unrelated Abortion page discussion, by Paularbaster on WQA 24 Nov, and Paularabaster on ] 25 Nov and finally here 29 Nov by Schrandit. Both BWilkins and Elen of Roads have stated they should have escalated the issue to AN/I but in fact they did not. I infer from many of the comments above that is is obvious to the community here that Caroline's activity should have resulted in a block immediately. In contrast, no one reading either the WQA nor the RFC brought the issue to the attention of AN/I. Therefore it seems to me that what is obvious to the experienced administrator community was less obvious to the general editor community. Therefore it is unreasonable to expect that it would have been obvious to a new editor.
			I've been avoiding that user ever since we were blocked for edit warring on ] but they keep going at every edits I made, specifically the recent ones on the files I uploaded like ] and ], where the file are uploaded in ] and abided ] but they keep messing up. I'm still at lost and not sure what's their problem with my edits. Additional: I will also hold accountability if I did ].
	==== under attack ====
	Multiple factors came together that likely resulted in Caroline feeling attacked:
	<ul>
	<li>The fact the AN/I was posted by Schrandit rather than a third party editor despite the fact the activity had been known for days</li>
	<li>her action was compared to stalking abortion providers</li>
	<li>reference was made to countries where Misplaced Pages activity could result in harm, although I believe the call was not made is such a country</li>
	</ul>
			Note: Aidillia "accidentally" archived this discussion. ] ] 02:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	==== why the haste? ====
	Based on past interactions I considered it likely that if Caroline was forced to respond without having an opportunity:
	<ul>
	<li>to have explained to her the mores of this new community she was part of, and</li>
	<li>given time to reflect '''and digest''' the reasoning behind those values</li>
	that she would not "get it." To which extent I counseled her to wait before responding ]... I had hoped to have an opportunity to talk her through this. Unfortunately other editors demanded she respond immediately, to poor results.
	</ul>
			:I've many proof that shows you're the one who start the problem. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:02, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	When a person feels both attacked and pressured to respond quickly it is significantly less likely they will respond in an insightful way.
			::] you revert my correct upload which makes me so offended. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	What I don't get is why the rush? Why the need for haste? An explanation of Misplaced Pages's point of view, concurrent with positive validation of Caroline's ''intent'' while making the call while disapproving of the ''method'', coupled with time for her to process, could very well have resulted in a much more positive outcome.
			:::] i upload as per their official social media. But rather used a poster version, and in the end i revert it. Same like what u did to me on ]. I don't know what is this user problem, first upload the incorrect poster than re-upload again with the correct poster which i already uploaded, then need a bot to resize it. (So unnecessary) <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I reverted that because it was too early to say that the poster is indeed the main one at that time when it was labeled as . You know that we rely more on ] ] ] rather on official website or social media accounts as they are ], so I don't know why you were offended by a revert. ] ] 04:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Why you don't say this on the summary? or u can just simply discuss it on my talk page. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 04:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::] and ]. I have other ] in real life. ] ] 08:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::If you're that busy, please stop reverting my edits/uploads without any clear explanation. Just like what you did on ]. You will just engaged in ]. I've also seen you revert on ]; someone reverted it to the correct one (which I uploaded), but you still revert to your preferred version without leaving an edit summary. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 08:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I have partially blocked both of you from editing filespace for 72 hours for edit warring. I think an IBAN might be needed here. ] (]/]) 03:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::'''Support''' an indefinite two-way interaction ban between D.18th and Aidillia. They've also been edit warring at ]. Also look at the move log there, which is ridiculous. These people need to stop fighting with each other. ] ] 06:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== User:D.18th ===
	The justification of the ban as a deterrent against future misbehavior presupposes that a new editor such as Caroline would both be aware of and review past ] of AN/I. This is inconsistent with the ] model of Misplaced Pages.
			{{atop|1=Withdrawn. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{Userlinks|D.18th}}
			<s>This user keeps coming to wherever i made an edit. And this user also ignore ].</s> <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	Therefore I respectfully request the indef ban be mitigated. I don't think any block is necessary at all; however if the community feels some cooling off period is justified my past experience suggests a few days would be sufficient. ] (]) 22:06, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			<s>:This user is the most number one who often comes in on my talk page first. But when I came to their talk page, i got restored or, worse, got reverted as vandalism.</s> <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	: Gerard, the user was given all day yesterday to rethink as per a discussion on my talkpage. You don't call someone's work/church/home, period. When politely confronted and shown a similar case, you don't continue to justify it. Arguably, Spitfire's discussion absolutely shot down any chance for her, however, she was provided more than enough opportunity to realize her bad, bad, bad judgement. She chose to justify it instead. (]<span style="border:1px solid red;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 22:21, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			:{{re|Aidilla}} You have failed to notify {{User|D.18th}} of this discussion, as the red notice at the top of the page clearly requires. I know they already reported you above, but they may not be aware of your one in return. You will need to show clear diffs supporting the allegations that you've made; expecting us to act on this report with no such evidence is likely going to result in ]. Regards, ]. (] &#124; ]). 04:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::], you can't remove a post from ANI once it has been responded to by another editor. If you want to rescind your complaint then strike it by using code, <nowiki><s>Comment</s></nowiki> which will show up as <s>Comment</s>. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{done}}, thanks! <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 05:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User:Azar Altman and User:Farruh Samadov ==
	::No mitigating circumstances. Caroline sought real-life personal information of other editors to be used to her advantage on Misplaced Pages. Her totally unapologetic response when asked about it, sealed the deal.--] (]) 22:25, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			{{atop|result=All of the named parties have been indefinitely blocked with checkuser blocks. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 20:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	::: She called what she thought was another editor's place of work and refused, despite repeated prodding, that this was a major wrong hereabouts. She continued to insist there was no problem with her behavior. Excellent block. Prevents more possible instances of same from an editor that crossed one of the brightest red lines here and pour encourager les autres (one can hope).] (]) 22:30, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|Azar Altman}}
	::::Linking to "case law" is missing the point entirely. This isn't a government and no laws are being enforced. The intent is to protect Misplaced Pages and its editors. Tracking down and contacting an editor's employer is so far over the line that there's little point in debate. If I thought that such things were given an inch of tolerance I wouldn't want to participate in Misplaced Pages. That kind of thing is scary. -- ''']'''] 01:25, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|Farruh Samadov}}
	:::::I am aware of at least one underage editor who felt she had to leave because of being publicly outed here. I think many of us are aware of one very prominent editor who retired for a time because his real name was announced elsewhere. I know that if anyone ever revealed or sought in a way I could find out any real information about me, and I found out about it, my next and final edit here would be to announce my retirement. She was repeatedly told that this sort of thing is not acceptable, and yet she continued to argue that it was. If she can do that once, she can do it again, probably for other reasons which she would find equally acceptable. Whether the people she was attempting to basically "out" would find that acceptable is another matter entirely. We cannot allow one editor's being unable (or refusing) to "get" something potentially drive away other editors, and the record will show that she has already driven away one. She has been told how to appeal the block. Whether she chooses to do so is another matter. However, if she does choose to do so or not, she is being given a good deal of time to come to understand how and why such actions are unacceptable. If she indicates that she does understand to the ArbCom, the block may well be lifted. If she doesn't, then the risk of further misconduct by her along these lines is a very real one which could do some form of harm to virtually any other editor here and I cannot she why we should run that risk for any single individual. ] (]) 18:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			{{user|Azar Altman}} was ] for uncivil conduct and MOS violations. Shortley after their initial 72-hour block on December 27, a new user named {{user|Farruh Samadov}} appeared. One of their edits at ] is , the capital of Uzbekistan, in violation of ]. They did this three more times (, , ). And then Azar Altman reverted again twice (, ), leading me to suspect that Farruh Samadov is a ]. Both users edit in the Uzbekistan topic area and both user talk pages have warnings for MoS violations, but Samadov has never used uncivil language, as Altman did on their user talk and in their second edit I linked. –] (]]) 04:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	Please see also ] ] (]) 01:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:I opened a a couple hours ago. It is indeed highly suspicious that Farruh Samadov was created only a few hours after this block was imposed. ] (]) 04:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Thank you ] for bringing this continued discussion to my attention. One of the most disturbing things for me about this whole sorry saga has been the way it has been conducted all over the shop in various forums. I am no newbie here, but I have found it very difficult to keep up with all the various threads of the discussion in all these different places. In my opinion this is an abuse of process. It has been nothing more than a gaming of the system by two experienced users (one who has since flounced) who have taken exception to an oposing opinion about a content dispute. People here who should know better have allowed these two to dig for something that could be turned into a hot button issue and responed unthinkingly when they had no compunction in pressing that button. Certainly CarolineWH's actions deserve censure, but she has been denied natural justice by all this forum shopping - which surely should have raised some alarm bells with people here - which has made it impossible for her to respond, especially given the pressure that has been applied to elicit a rapid response from her. Frankly it looks like a kangaroo court to me. I have stated in the link supplied above by Gerardw what I think should have happenned. It is not too late (I hope) for this precipitate action to be reversed and more naunced approach to be tried.
			::Pinging @] who was involved in the prior ANI and performed the block. ]&thinsp;] 04:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Suggest these accounts to be blocked as soon as possible if sockpupperty is confirmed. ] (]) 05:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::], yes, that's how that goes. ] (]) 13:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Regardless of SOCK, suggest that Azar receive another block of at least a week for continued disruption shortly after the block was lifted. They were reverted twice (as noted above) for the same edit by two different editors (Laundry and Melik). Their most recent edit summary was {{tq|Stop discriminating by violating Misplaced Pages rules.}} when MOS was specifically mentioned in the prior edit summary and they are abundantly notified about edit warring and not reverting-reverts. ]&thinsp;] 05:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Sockpuppetry in Philippine articles ==
	:Finally, there remains the issue of the two who started all this, whatever CarolineWH's actions deserved, this sort of simultaneous multiple forum attack on her is unjust and unconscionable. We cannot afford to allow this sort of abuse to continue. The two perpetrators of this should not escape with their actions unsanctioned, especially given the way the current case for a new user has been dealt with. - ] ] 02:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::CarolineWH has been told how to contest her block. I can't see any administrator willing to unblock under these circumstances, so she can always take it to ArbCom. ] 02:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			Request an immediate and extended range block for {{User|49.145.5.109}}, a certified sock of LTA ] from editing ] and other related pages pending a result of a protection request, the second to have been filed for that page after the first instance of sockpuppetry by the same account was deemed not serious enough. See also ]. ] (]) 07:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	Gerardw, your entire argument falls at your very first note (why would she even know there was such a thing as checkuser). Read the text you quoted - that bit about CU not being subject to any kind of oversight. CarolineWH had in fact had a disagreement with a checkuser in an SPI prior to the events described, which was why she decided to conduct her own off wiki research. ] (]) 13:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:It seems like this should be reported at ], not at ANI. That's where the checkusers are at although they are generally reluctant to connect an IP account with a blocked sockpuppet. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::This is already confirmed in the SPI. However, as it is an IP account that can't be indeffed, I'd had to check my calendar too often to see when their existing block expires. 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) ] (]) 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Vandalism on ANI ==		== SeanM1997 ==
			{{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub>}}
			*{{User|SeanM1997}}
			User seems to think that sourcing is only clutter and keeps removing source requests and sometimes even sources. This despite ] and ]. Warnings and request completely fall on deaf ears. This is damaging the encyclopedia. See for example on Manchester Airport which show (in the edit summery) that he has no clue about what independent sources are. And where he removed sources for the connections with some unsourced additions and a source for the airline.
	{{resolved|Reverted, blocked, now ignored. <small>] ]</small> 13:23, 1 December 2009 (UTC)}}
	I've just issued 4im warnings to the two IPs (98.247.230.86 and 123.211.73.44) for personal attacks here. Is there anything more to be done? ] ] 09:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:They're both open proxies, but now blocked. -- ] (]) 09:35, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			Combined with ], giving him a ], I think something has to be done. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">]&nbsp;]</span> 12:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	: {{ec}} Not really. It's just ]tards. Ignore and they'll go away ;) - ] <sup>]</sup> 09:38, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:Reading SeanM1997's talk page is a depressing saga. I have indefinitely blocked the editor for persistent addition of unsourced and poorly sourced content for years, despite being warned repeatedly. The editor can be unblocked if they promise to provide references to reliable sources 100% of the time. ] (]) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::It should be noted that SeanM1997 has in the past posted a tweet to support something, then used a news story referencing his tweet as a source to insert into an article. Despite many years and many many conversations, they don't/won't understand the concept of independent reliable sources. ] ] 17:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Deegeejay333 and Eurabia ==
	::Does anyone know who they're likely to be? I notice that their only edits are those personal attacks which makes me suspect they might be someone's sockpuppets but I don't spend enough time on ANI to speculate as to whose. ] ] 09:40, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			Much of the activity of the infrequently active user {{userlinks|Deegeejay333}} appears to be attempts to whitewash anything to do with the ], attempting to present it as "fact", despite the fact that scholarly sources have consistently defined it as a conspiracy theory (see , ). I think this makes them ]. ] (]) 17:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::There are a number of idiots who hang about on /b/ getting other, bigger, idiots to cut-and-paste this type of boring vandalism. It's, quite literally, random idiots. Not socks and not really even meatpuppets. Just random idiots. <small>⬅ ]''']''']</small> 09:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			: Notifed their talkpage . Despite their long periods of inactivity, their most recent activity is today . ] (]) 17:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:The rest of their edits on unrelated topics seem unobjectionable. I think page blocks would get the job done in preventing further disruption (I can't get around to doing that right now, but that's my two cents). ] (]/]) 17:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Really? You see nothing wrong with {{diff|Nathan Phillips (activist)|prev|879336081|these}} {{diff|Enhanced interrogation techniques|prev|871177370|edits}}? --] 17:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yeah. It does kind of look like this editor is ] except to do battle with the terrible forces of Misplaced Pages leftism. ] (]) 17:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I did a quick look; I didn't look at all of their edits. I agree that edit is also problematic. ] (]/]) 17:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::White-washing ] was also the very first edit they made at Misplaced Pages as well as their most recent. This is an ongoing issue. ] (]) 18:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:Wigglebuy579579 ==
	::::You know, contrary to popular belief (and mounds of empirical evidence) not every idiot on the internet is from /b/. I was on there all night and saw no wikipedia raid threads. Please stop besmirching our name. We can do that just fine ourselves. ] (]) 10:44, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			*{{Userlinks|Wigglebuy579579}} keeps engaging in disruptive editing behaviour:
			# they created dozens of articles by copy-pasting AI-generated text;
			# they ignored all warnings onto their talk{{nbs}}page;
			# they duplicated draftified articles by simply recreating them.
			{{U|Miminity}} and I have been cleaning the mess for hours, warned him several times, but he just ignores everything and starts again.<span id="Est._2021:1736271756958:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators&apos;_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt">{{snd}}] (] <b>·</b> ]) 17:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)</span>
			: I would support indefinitely blocking this user. Their output is entirely low quality AI-generated slop, and they are contributing nothing of value to the encyclopedia while placing considerable burden on others. ] (]) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:], can you provide some examples so we don't have to search through their contributions? Thank you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: Some pertinent examples ] (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and ] (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. ] (]) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{re|Liz}} Examples include:
			:::#], ] and ];
			:::#] and ];
			:::#] and ];
			:::#];
			:::among others. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{Ping|Liz}} This editor left a message on my talkpage and again it is clearly written by AI. ] '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 00:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Are any of the references in ] real or are they all hallucinations? I'm having trouble finding them on web searches. They're also suspiciously old even though there is more recent relevant literature. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::The ] essay recommends G3 for articles for which text-source integrity is completely lacking. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 01:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{ping|rsjaffe}} Using BookFinder.com, Citation #1, #3 (might be a dupref of 1) does exist but has different author, Citation #2 does exist and is correct. #4 is dupref of #2. A quoted google search and a google scholar search about #5, 8, 9, 11 (The journals does not seem to even exist) yields no result. No result for 6, 7, 9, 10 (Nagaland State Press does not seems to even exist) 12 '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 02:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I would like to hear from @], but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Click all the link on the ], all of them are {{tl|failed verification}}. Either the page does not exist or the website itself does not exist. The JSTOR sources leads to a completely unrelated article. I think by the looks of it, this draft is safe to delete
			::::{{ping|Wigglebuy579579}} care to explain? '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 03:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{yo|rsjaffe}} more ref-checking at ]: as ] observes, ''The Angami Nagas: With Some Notes on Neighbouring Tribes'' exists (although with the BrE spelling of the title) and I accessed it at archive.org. It does not mention ''pfütsana'' anywhere in its 570 pages. The closest we get is ''pfuchatsuma'', which is a clan mentioned in a list of sub-clans of the Anagmi. The draft says {{tq|The term Pfütsana is derived from the Angami language, where "Pfü" translates to "life" or "spirit,"}} which is contrary to what ''The Angami Nagas'' says – ''pfü'' is a suffix functioning sort of similarly to a pronoun (and I think I know how the LLM hallucinated the meaning "spirit" but this is getting too long already). I looked at a couple of the sources for ] as well, and I haven't been able to find a single instance where the source verifies the claims in the draft. --'']'' <small>] ]</small> 16:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Thanks for checking. Those are now deleted. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 16:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*] and ], thanks for supplying examples that can be reviewed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*:I have deleted ] and ] as they have falsified references. Checking the others would be appreciated. Also, editor has been warned on their page about inserting unsubstantiated demographic data in articles. ]. I think we’re running out of ] here. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 16:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:BittersweetParadox - Overlinking ==
	::::: <small>⬅ ]''']''']</small> 10:49, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::404. A screencap is your best bet when trying to document anything on 4chan. ] (]) 11:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::I'm not trying to document it. But you'll just need to take my word for it. And Alison's word. And SirFozzie's. It was /b/. <small>⬅ ]''']''']</small> 11:03, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::: :`( Why so hate? ] (]) 11:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	{{outdent|:::::::}}
	Trying to look for threads about Misplaced Pages on /b/ is the equivalent of trying to look for variously placed needles in 50 haystacks which are moving at 30 miles per hour. Threads on /b/ are added so quickly, virtually nothing stays on one page for more than about 5 seconds. If you were to constantly refresh and refresh the page, anything that was there on the previous refresh is already gone... and that's during the less active times. ''<font face="Segoe Print">]</span>'' 16:26, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:"Please stop besmirching our name". That's the quote of the month, right there. ] &#124; ] 16:30, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::No /b/smirching their name, yo. ] (]) 17:04, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Funniest thread I've seen all week. ] (]) 17:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|BittersweetParadox}}
	&larr;I took a ] last night. You can see it . I've redacted Foz's personal info, though it's still ] :-O BTW, I'm a proud on-and-off /b/tard myself & can tell you that most people on there don't care for that 'Personal Army' nonsense - it's really only n00bz and the really, ''really'' bored that care about these things. I'll probably write up an essay on it at a later date, so people know how this stuff works - ] <sup>]</sup> 21:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			This user is persistently ]ing throughout most of their edits that aren't dealing with categories or redirects, see for example:
	:<small>self-portait, Alison? --]''''']''''' 22:09, 1 December 2009 (UTC)</small>
			*
	:: lol - hardly :) As the thread on /b/ states, I'm a ] ] ^_^ - ] <sup>]</sup> 22:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			*
	::: Are you saying people actually fell for that PA request? /b/, I am dissapoint. Oh, and btw, TITS or GTFO =P ] (]) 18:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			*
			*
			* (unexplained citation removal as well)
			*
			*
			*
			I have also ] regarding this, but they have seemingly chosen to ignore that warning, as they are still continuing with the same behavior:
	== ], Do No Harm, attempted outing, and maybe sockpuppetry ==
			*
			*
			*
			*
			*
			This is also not the first time the issue has been brought up to the user, as they were previously warned in ], where even after claiming to understand the issue/say they won't do it again, . With their ignoring of warnings regarding overlinking, it unfortunately appears that an ANI discussion may be the only way to solve this ongoing issue, apart from a block. ] (]) 17:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	I tried to remove ]'s blog as an external link from her article because I found it to add no encyclopedic value whatsoever. i further reasoned that in the spirit of doing no harm, it could possibly be psychologically harmful to her for wikipedia to link to her site, as she might misconstrue our linking to her as an encouragement and verification for her delusional ideations. you'd have to read her blog and article for context on how profoundly disturbing her paranoia and delusions are.
			:Overlinking still continuing on despite this ANI (), and even with an administrator , continues on with their edits/ignoring this ANI. The user is not appearing to want to ] whatsoever, and some of their communication over issues in the past does not bode well as well ().
	Diana Napolis is notable, and has a wikipedia article, because she stalked steven spielberg and made death threats against jennifer love hewett because she believed that jennifer love hewett could read her mind.
			:They are adding many uses of , despite the usage instructions saying that the template should '''''not''''' be used in prose text. I really am not sure what more there is to do here, as any attempts at communicating with the user does virtually nothing. ] (]) 20:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	her blog has postings such as <i>"“They” and a mass of other personalities are underneath my home and the surrounding area. It might be their home base. I need assistance getting the good guys out. They have plans to expand. Their weaknesses are flickering lights – (strobe lights would work) - sent with negative energy; spinning, and cold temperature. It appears that my opponents can “mind-upload” or “mind transfer” anyone into the program that I see into, contrary to the belief of various officials that it can’t be done."</i>
			*{{ping|BittersweetParadox}} It's rather insulting to state you'll comment here and then continue to overlink . Please stop editing like this until you can address the above concerns. Rgrds. --] (]) 07:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{ping|Liz}} Apologies for the ping, but could there please be some assistance here?... As BX stated above, despite their only communication thus far since this ANI (being a simple, "ok"), they have still continued overlinking- now overlinking '''''even more''''' since BX's comment above: . I'm really not sure what more there is that can be done here apart from a block, as it appears this is just going to continue on, no matter what anyone says here or on their talk page. ] (]) 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			==Repeated pov pushing ==
	after reading her blog, i tried to remove it from the article. but it was added back with the other editor's reasoning that it's permitted under policy. i started a discussion on the talk page ] where the other two editors disagreed with my assertion that linking her site might be harmful to her. i reasoned that her site is unecyclopedic, does not benefit the article in any way, and also might allow her to misconstrue wikipedia linking her site with somehow legitimizing her paranoid/delusional ideations. after the two other editors disagreed, i decided that it would be better to get more experienced help, so i posted on the BLP noticeboard for further advice. ] was the only editor to come to the article from BLPN, and he supported its removal and wrote . <b> and here's where things got weird</b> ] , which makes no sense. and then an IP accused me of the same ] - it appears to me that both the IP and hipcrite are the same person. i suppose this is a technical violation of ]ing, but it's such an illogical accusation that i think the situation now requires much more outside scrutiny. there are probably more sockpuppets here than just hipocrite and his/her IP.
			{{atop|This is a content dispute and ANI is not the venue to resolve those. {{U|Hellenic Rebel}}, you've had multiple editors tell you that you are not correct. Please take the time to understand why. ] ] 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			] , despite the disagreements, continues to try to impose his personal opinion, for which he cannot cite any source that justifies him. Clearly original research.
	this is my original posting to the BLPN with rationale as to why the link should be removed: ]
	here is the talk page discussion: ] ] (]) 17:30, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	Er, I'm not the IP, the IP was the one that said it first, and I thought you had made it public that you were Mrs. Napolis. Given that, apparently, it's neither true nor public (I guess), I've removed my statement. I suggest you remove this section as well. ] (]) 17:39, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:For the record, I independently initiated an ] on the article over related concerns at about the same time this thread was started. ] (]) 17:42, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::hipocrite, please provide a diff of where i've claimed or intimated that i'm diana napolis. writing things like "apparently, it's neither true nor public (I guess)" just shows your intent to continue with your tactics. for the record, i'm a male in my 20s, not an aging woman named diana. if anyone in this bizarre situation is actually diana napolis, it's certainly not me. i'll leave it up to the other admins and editors to see through your ruse and sockpuppetry. ] (]) 17:50, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	* and what are you doing removing the IP editor's comments? if that isn't you, you probably shouldn't be touching other people's talkpage comments ]. and by the way, do you think no one can figure out your passive aggressive intimations when you use edit summaries like "<b>apparently</b> TSC is not napolis". do you think we are fools? ] (]) 17:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:: I'm trying to remove the violations of ]. I suggested you do the same in this thread. I swear from on high that I have no intent of engaging with you, or the article about Mrs. Napoli ever again, ever. You are obviously not Mrs. Napoli, and I apologize for beliving the IP editor, who, by the way, is located in a totally different state than I'm in. ] (]) 17:58, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	'''Question''': What did you mean by edit summary Hipocrite? ] (]) 18:30, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:TSC was very worried about outing (see this report). I redacted lots of outing. He undid all of my redaction - so, while I was scrambling to fix my mistake, he was scrambling to return it. I did my damndest to remove as much of the outing as possible, with the slightly sarcastic comment that it must be ok for the stuff that I left to stay. ] (]) 18:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:: Do you consider TSC taking the time to counter allegations of being ] self-outing? Did you perhaps mean 'attempted outing' in your previous post? ] (]) 18:45, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::: An interesting argument. However, I refer to the policy, which you clearly have not read, ]. "If you see an editor post personal information about another person, do not confirm or deny the accuracy of the information. Doing so would give the person posting the information and anyone else who saw the page feedback on the accuracy of the material. Do not treat incorrect attempts at outing any differently from correct attempts for the same reason." Perhaps you should spend less time following the contributions of people you have previously been in disputes with and move on to other practices. Thanks! ] (]) 18:50, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::: I will be honest with you here, I do not recall having been in a dispute with you. I think the closest thing to that was when you came to my talk page after I had commented on the jzg/guy rfc, demanding to know how I came to be aware of it and voicing concerns of your edits being stalked. We had a brief exchange on rfc page but certainly nothing that ''I'' would consider a dispute. I am not looking at your contributions because you are ] but because you are a user that has been presented as having made questionable edits here on ANI and I wanted to see if such allegations had merit, upon seeing your choice of words I asked for clarification as the wording you have used in your edit summary and posts could indicate that you have indeed not relinquished the desire to intimate that TSC could be Diana Napolis. I have read ] and I am sure that TSC has as well. I respect his decision to react against attempted outing and/or personal attacks. Should you have read ] previously then you should have known that repeating the allegations of the IP editor(I assume that this is how you come to curious notion) without diffs that clearly indicated self-outing would be against policy. I apologize if this strikes you as us having a dispute, now, I consider it a clarification of how I perceive the situation. ] (]) 19:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::This is a fairly simple case as regards the link to the blog. If the article is upheld at AfD, then the blog remains per well established content policy. As regards outing, it was not a good idea to speculate if any Misplaced Pages editors might be the subject of the article. I know we do it often when we suspect COI, but its one of the really troublesome aspects of our COI policy. This is clearly a particularly strong case where we would not want to make the speculation because of the possible harm to an editor, but the contraction to OUTING really occurs every time we do it, unless of course self-admitted. Once the decision is made about the article, some courtesy blanking and possibly oversight would be in order. ''']''' (]) 20:18, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::I second what DGG said about outing and COI, it's sometimes a tightrope. Generally if you need to err, err on the side of caution and don't out someone even if you're pretty sure there's a COI. What I see from this is an IP did the outing, and Hipocrite thought the identity was previously disclosed and was no big deal. When he realized that wasn't the case he tried to clean things up. While he made mistakes, his intentions seemed good the whole time and as soon as he realized he might be violating policy he tried to fix it. He should at the very least be commended for that. -- ''']'''] 23:17, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	(outdent) Getting back to the BLP issue, I'd like to mention that ] (linked to at the bottom of the Napolis article) has led me to some serious BLP violations, especially under the "Notable People" section. I've removed a couple of egregious examples, but I will crosspost this to the BLP noticeboard for further review. I think some of this may be residue from ] and his merry band of socks. ] (]) 01:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:I'm the article's creator, FWIW, as well as {{tl|satanic ritual abuse}}. I don't know where all the attention is coming from or why - in my mind there is extensive support for the status quo page. Per ] Napolis' blog clearly should remain and per ] she is very clearly notable. This is basic policy and guideline stuff and I'm quite surprised to see the quality and quantity of the objections. There's nothing not available on a news site, most of the sources are outright linked (I have copies of unlinked news articles as I say on the talk page), and it's not like the page is being used in a disparaging manner. Napolis has edited wikipedia (there are two templates to that effect on the talk page) but <s>never the ] page proper</s> including the Diana Napolis page itself - one of which the link to her blog in the EL section. The IP addresses comment seemed like a simple case of mistaken identity, one that I saw but didn't even bother to comment on. I don't believe TSC is Diana Napolis, based mostly on the fact that I usually recognize editors who have worked on the ] pages and TSC's handle didn't ring a bell. ] <small>] ] Misplaced Pages's rules:</small>]/] 02:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::I think Theserialcomma is right to want to tiptoe very carefully around the mental health of apparently a very fragile person. If DN feels strangers are reading her mind, yet she is essentially posting her diary online, well, there's a self-fulfilling prophecy, but we for our parts shouldn't be "immanentizing the eschaton" (helping bring closer the inevitable end of things). Visiting Bedlam to taunt the inmates is so passé this season, can't we watch bear-baiting instead? <small>— ] (]/]) 06:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)</small>
	** i would ask, how does linking her blog benefit the encyclopedia article? i don't think it does anything good for the article, other than the fact that ] allows it. on the other hand, could it possibly hurt her psychological balance by letting her think that wikipedia somehow accepts and gives credence her delusions? this seems plausible, considering she's a paranoid schizophrenic. this is why i believe it should be removed, but it's an editorial decision that consensus will have to decide, i guess. ] (]) 07:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::: ]. Under that logic, if she said she need Spielberg's or Hewitt's pages blanked for her health, would we do it? There's an ongoing discussion at ] though. -- ] (]) 07:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::That hypothetical about spielberg and hewett that you've presented is actually 100% fallacious logic and therefore logically irrelevant to my argument. furthermore, ] is about WP not being therapy for ''editors'', the guideline has nothing to do with how to deal with '''BLP subjects''', which is what we are discussing. ] (]) 12:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Misplaced Pages isn't therapy for ''anyone''. No serious article could be written about any person (or many topics) if our primary concern is "will this affect this person's mental state". Witness ] (and ]), ], ], and any other potentially embarrassing, but highly notable events and people. There are good sources, extensive discussion and nothing unreasonable on her page. Also note that nowhere does it say she is a paranoid schizophrenic.
	:::::For every argument that "x page could affect the subject's mental balance" there is a speculative counter-argument: it might make the subject seek out help. It might make the subject take their medication. It might make the subject go on a shooting rampage. It might make the subject take a vacation. But we don't know. We're not doctors, nor should we try to be. ] <small>] ] Misplaced Pages's rules:</small>]/] 12:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::We're not '''trying''' to provide therapy for her. We're telling people ''quit poking her with a stick to see if she reacts''. As you say, we're not doctors, and we shouldn't be pointing people to her personal blog just for the hell of it. It doesn't ''add'' anything to the understanding of the subject. &mdash; <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 16:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Who's poking anyone with a stick? As WLU has pointed out on the article talk page it appears that Napolis the placement of her blog link in the External links section herself -- without removing it. Your statement strongly implies an assumption of bad faith. If you do not wish to imply that someone is intentionally poking her with a stick until she reacts I suggest refactoring your comment. There may well be an argument against inclusion based upon what it does or does not add to the entry but that is a content question and not a BLP concern. The editor who brought this matter here initially removed the link on the basis that it was . Only after being rebuffed did they post on the talk page with a BLP concern. The two arguments are completely contradictory, since one suggests that Napolis is spamming the entry with her blog for her own benefit and the other suggest that we're causing her harm by linking to her page. If anything the manner in which this matter has been brought forth and has now been forum shopped around the encyclopedia bares some scrutiny. I don't mean to suggest that there is any impropriety here but simply that a bit of forethought before making arguments or insinuations might benefit this discussion immensely.] (]) 17:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			See also, talk with ] ] (]) 19:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::FWIW, ] purposely censors out the kid's real name, as does ]. these are not examples of people using WP for therapy to benefit the article's subjects, but editors deciding to lessen any potential harm to a living person, which is what i'm arguing for.
			:Replying since I've been tagged. I do think this is a behavioural issue rather than a content one. User has been repeatedly warned on their talk page by several users about edits to the article in question but has belligerently refused to engage in constructive discussion about said edits.
	::::and your counter-argument examples are logically flawed arguments - no one knows what allowing the link will cause or not cause. your attempt to use a counter argument with modified premises and conclusions completely changes the argument, which is a logical fallacy. i'm arguing that X might cause Y. you're arguing that X might cause Z, Q or even -Y. You also mentioned in the talk page -X causing Y. There is no possibility that what you have presented as counter arguments would ever pass any scrutiny from a logician. This is not good logic.
			:User was clearly warned about continuing this in the closure message of the last ANI discussion not to resume the edits but the response on the article's talk page was notably dismissive of said warning.
			:Quite honestly I think this is a case of ]. The user in question has just plead that they have special knowledge we don't and has steadfastly refused to demonstrate in reliable sources the contents of their edits. Despite being informed of how consensus works they have resorted to counting votes and even in that case just dismissing the views of those against him for contrived reasons. ] (]) 19:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: My friends, anonymous user and @], and also dear user and adminis that are going to see the previous POVs. The article had a specific version, which you decided to dispute by causing a correction war, that could easily be seen at the . The administrator in order to reach to a consensus, which obviously couldn't happen, and there was no corresponding participation. Four users in all, the two of us presented our arguments in favor of the original version, Rambling Rambler (and somewhat monotonously and without proper documentation, the anonymous user) presented yours for the version without seats. At the end, you threw in an ad-hominem against me, to top it off. You made a call, no one else did anything, time passed. What makes you believe that the article will remain in your version, while the original was the previous one and there was no consensus?<br/>P.S.: Rambling Rambler, please stop bombing links to wikipedia policies and then trying to interpret them and "fit" them to the issue. This practice resembles clickbait, you are simply trying to show that you are knowledgeable about politics and appear superior, and this is annoying. ] (]) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@] an admin locked the page, and then anybody respond even if we make pings. That means that they just locked the page because there was an edit war, and and no one dealt with the article. The discussion ended weeks ago and also you've made a public call. If somebody wanted, they would have closed the discussion. So I don't think it's a case of IDHT, because the time intervals in which someone could engage (either to participate in the discussion, or an administrator to close it) had exceeded the normal. ] (]) 19:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I'm not going to reopen the content aspect of this here. I have made you aware, '''repeatedly''', of our polices when it comes to including claims. You need to provide reliable sources and the burden is on those wanting to include challenged statements to meet consensus to include them. You have now just admitted there is no consensus yet you felt entitled to reintroduce challenged material.
			::::This is precisely a "I don't have to" issue. ] (]) 19:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Also tagging @] as they probably have a view on this given their previous action. ] (]) 19:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@] I will prove you that you actually interpret policies as you see fit, and you don't pay attention to what they say. ]:<br/> Sometimes, editors perpetuate disputes by sticking to a viewpoint long '''after community consensus has decided that moving on would be more productive'''. Believing that you have a valid point does not confer the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told otherwise. '''The community's rejection of your idea is not because they didn't hear you'''. Stop writing, listen, and consider what the others are telling you. Make an effort to see their side of the debate, and work on finding points of agreement. Do not confuse "hearing" with "agreeing with".<br/>You can see the bold parts. It's obvious from those, that this policy does not refer to cases where four user with two different opinions participated. It refers to cases where one or a minority of users refuses to accept the community's decision because they believe their opinion is superior. In our discussion, my version never rejected from the community, it was rejected only by you and the anonymous user. In this case, either you believe that the majority or the community in general is you and the anonymous user, or you are simply trying to propagate your position. ] (]) 20:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::You were linked ] during the discussion and clearly acknowledged it.
			:::::: So you are aware of it, which bluntly states:
			::::::''The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.''
			::::::In your previous reply you have admitted that there isn't consensus.
			::::::You have broken policy and are just once again stubbornly refusing to adhere to it. ] (]) 20:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::@] There was a long time period in which we did not have any edit in the discussion. The original version was the one with the seats. The admins at that cases, lock the article at a random version (otherwise there should have been a clarification from the admin). So the lack of consensus concerns your own version, not the original one, to which I restored the article. Finally, I need to point out that you have made a series of problematic contributions, such as misguiding users by referring them to Misplaced Pages policies that are not related to the subject as I demonstrated exactly above, but also the ad-hominem against me which you proceeded together with the anonymous user in the article discussion. ] (]) 20:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::This wall of text is the exact problem at hand here. You won't follow our site's policies but instead are just making up your own as to why breaking policy is now fine. The "discussion" was barely dormant and as you admit there was no consensus on including the material you demand be included. Ergo, per policy it can't be included.
			::::::::Frankly you are incapable of editing in a collaborative manner. I think the fact that you've been blocked repeatedly both here and at our Greek equivalent for disruptive behaviour and edit-warring demonstrates this very well. ] (]) 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::@] The problem here is that you don't understand the policy. The one who needs consensus to make edits, is the one that wants to make a change at the page. In our case, maybe the random version in which the page was locked was your version, but that does not change the fact that you were the one who wanted to make a change. You need consensus, you did not achieved it. Also, that is '''ad-hominem''' again, and now you checked and my greek WP blocks? ] (]) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::It is not ad hominem to bring up your history of blocks for edit warring and disruption when the topic of discussion is your conduct.
			::::::::::The policy, which I quoted for your benefit, '''literally''' says the onus is on the person who wants to '''include''' the disputed content '''which is you'''. You want this claim to be on the article and myself and others have disputed it. ] (]) 21:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::@] there is not such as disputed content. The party has 5 members affiliated with it, and there is source about it. Your edits where those which need consnensus, because you are the one which want to change the original. ] (]) 21:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::The fact myself and others have said it's not supported and therefore shouldn't be there is literally a dispute... ] (]) 21:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::@] yes it is a dispute, but if there is not a consensus that your dispute is valid, the version that remains is the original one, that is also supported by source. ] (]) 21:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::There has never been a specific version of the article. A few hours after adding the uncited 5 MPs, the edit was undone. It is also worth noting that the original contributor of the addition about mps, Quinnnnnby never engaged in an edit war or challenged our disagreements, as you did. ] (]) 20:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I did, but you also did. So the only user to act properly at that case was @]. And guess with what opinion Quinnnnby agreed at the discussion... ] (]) 20:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{ping|Hellenic Rebel}}, Rambling Rambler is actually right: if you wish to include text which has been disputed, you '''must''' include sourcing. You cannot just attempt to force the content in, regardless of what consensus you believe has been achieved. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 21:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::@] this is exactly why I am saying that the users propagandize: there was a source used! ] (]) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Then it's time to discuss that source on the Talk page ''instead'' of just ramming into the article. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::@] there was a discussion on the page. The source states that 5 MPs of the Hellenic Parliament are in the new party. And the users, after their first argument that it should have a parliamentary group was shot down (as it was obvious that this policy is not followed in any party), they moved on to a logic that the source should say verbatim "5 MPs '''stand'''" for the party... ] (]) 21:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::@] I have lost hours of my life to "discussing" this at this point. They're entirely either refusing or simply incapable of understanding that because they have sources for Claim A that doesn't mean they can put a similar but still different Claim B on the article. They however insist they can because unlike us they're "Hellenic" and therefore know that Claim A = Claim B while refusing to accept this is ]. ] (]) 21:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Automatic editing, abusive behaviour, and disruptive(ish) wikihounding from ] ==
	::::but back to the issue: the burden on editors here is to do no harm, not ensure her article has a link to her blog. are we potentially doing harm? i don't know. wouldn't it be better to play it safe, though? i say yes. by the way, to respond to why i called her a paranoid schizophrenic, it's because one of the court documents i found while googling called her so. ] (]) 13:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			{{atop|result={{nac}} While {{u|KMaster888}}'s editing history (the original discussion) wasn't inherently bad in itself, their conduct after being questioned about it was bad, violating ], ], ], and ] See , , , , , , , , , and their comments on this thread. Indeffed by {{u|Cullen328}}, and TPA revoked after , another personal attack. ]<sup>]</sup> 02:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			] appears to be making lightning speed edits that are well beyond the capacity of any human to review, in addition to article content that's coming across potentially LLM-like in nature. Since December they've made over 11,000 edits, many across multiple articles within a sixty second window.
			I attempted to ask about the policies around this at ] and was met with a tirade of obscenities and abuse (which I want to give them a slight benefit of the doubt on, I'd be upset at being accused of being a bot if I wasn't):
	I have removed the link to the blog; its contents are grossly unacceptable for linking pursuant to the BLP policy, among other considerations, and the encyclopedic value of any link is outweighed by the blog's defamatory and frankly sad contents. This material is not to be restored except by affirmative consensus to do so. See, if necessary, ]; ]. I may comment on other aspects of this situation later. ] (]) 17:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	== User:Editor XXV ==
			As far as I can tell this peaked with a total of 89 edits in a four minute window between 08:27 to 08:31 on December 28, 2024. Most are innocuous, but there are content edits thrown in the mix and recent articles were written in a way that indicates it may be an LLM ( not definitive, though if you are familiar with LLM output this may ring some alarm bells, but false alarms abound).
	Some of you may already be aware of ]. Originally, he was just another vandal who was blocked within hours. Since then, he has used sockpuppets and anonymous IPs to evade his block and continue vandalizing Misplaced Pages.
			Following the quite hot thread at ]'s page, it's quite clear that whoever is operating that bot threw my entire edit history into the mix, because the bot systematically edited ''every single article'' that I had edited, ''in reverse order'' (over 100 so far since this came up about an couple of hours ago), going back a reasonable amount of time.
	It is obvious that this user has no intention of stopping. He has ] and could be creating more as we speak. (write? type?) I doubt that any administrator will unblock this user.
			The problem is that it's clear that a bot was instructed to just make an edit, without concern for what those edits are, so you end up with , , or at a rate far faster than any editor could address.
	This user is obviously no longer welcome here, but I don't think he gets it.
			This one is easily one of the strangest situations I've ever encountered on Misplaced Pages. ] 20:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	So, in accordance with ], I am starting a discussion here. Should we consider this user effectively banned?
			:I'm flattered that you've looked into my activity on Misplaced Pages so closely. But if you'd be arsed, you'd understand that it is very simple to do an insource search using a regular expression to find a lot of stylistic errors, like no space after a sentence. If you love being on my back so much, good on you, but I'd wish if you got off. ] (]) 20:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	--], signing off. (]) (]) 18:09, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			::1) That doesn't explain how consistently abusive you have been
	:Well I would beware or doing that as we could have another general tojo on your hands. Perhaps we can just ]?--] <sup>]</sup> 18:24, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			::2) While I'm aware that an overwhelming percentage of the errors you're editing out are ones that can simply be addressed by regex, I'm very clearly raising the content edits as opposed to formatting ones. ] 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::He wants to be up there with Grawp, Willy on Wheels and Bambifan101. RBI is something we should apply while dealing with him. What we need is something that will tell him "go away, we don't want you here". A ban is just that. --], signing off. (]) (]) 20:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:How about we take this off of ANI, of all places? ] (]) 21:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::A "we don't want you here" is usually what the problematic sockpuppeteers want. ] would be the best option in my opinion so that you can ].--<b><font face="Rockwell" color="blue">]</font></b> <small><font face="Rockwell" color="gold">]</font></small> 20:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			::No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. ] 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::There have been three threads on ] about him (now solely in page history). Add his various talk pages and ] has failed. --], signing off. (]) (]) 20:19, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:::Obviously, if there's someone who's making bad decisions on Misplaced Pages (You), I want to check if he has messed up articles. Please tell me what articles you think I have damaged. ] (]) 21:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::And with a sleeper sock getting blocked a few minutes ago, I repeat my appeal to the community for an indefinite '''ban''' of this user. --], signing off. (]) (]) 13:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			:::Also, I'd appreciate if you would stop casting aspersions about me being an LLM. ] (]) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::Approve '''ban''' for reasons noted. It will help us deal with him easier. And in addition, a link to him from ] would be helpful. --]] 14:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			::::As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. ] 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::I agree. I've been involved with this user since near the beginning. The problem is that he has a dynamic IP, so normal blocks only stop him for a short time. I'm not too sure how a community ban will kick him out for good, but RBI and DENY don't seem to work so the least we can do is try in my opinion. I've tried to keep him contained but the last three times he's appeared recently (I seem to be a rapid target for some reason) I've been away from the computer and unable to help out. --<font color="#009000">]</font><font color="#03C03C">]</font><font color="#00A550">]</font> 15:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			:::::There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. ] (]) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::::This is a more or less a neutral !vote. I'm sort of torn between the benefits of a ban, and the potential escalation it could cause. To be perfectly honest, I don't see much benefit in banning this guy. Some, but not much. He seems to get a high from defying authority. Banning may only make him want to vandalise more. On the other hand, it would be helpful to have his name on ] (but it may have the opposite effect), and the banning notice may give him some idea of how serious the thing is. Right now, he thinks he's just annoying a few random editors, but if he realises the whole community wants him out, he may be a bit intimidated and leave. Or not. ]] '']'' 17:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			::::::<s>Unless you're doing regex with your eyes, clearly you're using assistance. And the fact you're (still!) doing something that fixes the same type of typo almost as fast as I can click "Random Article" indicates you're doing more than just regex. You're finding these articles somehow.</s> <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 22:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::::P.S. - He has a goal to get 100 socks. Maybe he'll stop if he reaches that number? ]] '']'' 17:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Kicking back and letting vandals vandalize is the worst solution in the book. --], signing off. (]) (]) 17:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)		:::::::I am doing an "insource" search using regex. ] (]) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. ] (]) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::::::Yes, he really should be banned before he creates 100 more socks. ] (]) 23:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::Agree. We need to be firm when dealing with annoying, useless, users --]] 23:48, 2 December 2009 (UTC)		:::::::::Ah . I wasn't aware one could do that. I retract. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 22:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::And, I would appreciate if you would stop calling my edits strange and odd. ] (]) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{Outdent|:::::::::::::}}
			::::You had over 100 edits in a row directily in chronological sequence, from newest to oldest, of my exact edit history excluding wikiprojects and talk pages. I'm allowed to find that a little strange. ] 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Approve Community Ban''' - let's get this thing going. (I consider myself an involved editor as I detected his most-recently blocked sleeping sock, ]). ] won't work, ] hasn't really worked for his last 12 or so socks, so we need a realistic approach to prevent him from coming back. —]<sup>''']'''</sup> / <sub>''']'''</sub> 00:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			::::Why shouldn't someone call strange and odd edits strange and odd? ] (]) 21:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Approve Community Ban''' - Is there consensus yet? No matter, lets !vote here. There is nothing that I've seen from this user that is productive, he is annoying and useless, the project is better off without him. --]] 11:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			:@] I suggest you stop with the personal attacks before you get blocked. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Approve Community Ban''' - While I doubt the ban will be very effective, we may as well give it a shot, ]] '']'' 13:24, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			::Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that {{u|KMaster888}} should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. ] (]) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Approve Community Ban:''' As far as I'm aware, all other options have been tried and have failed. --<font color="#009000">]</font><font color="#03C03C">]</font><font color="#00A550">]</font> 13:28, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			:::I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. ] (]) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I'll just ask you straight up.{{pb}}Do you feel any remorse for this statement? {{tq|remove asshole}} {{pb}}Could you explain why you felt it was best to choose those two words when blanking your talk page? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::And again: {{tq|@The Corvette ZR1 @Tarlby stop clogging up ANI with your comments.}} ]<sup>]</sup> 22:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::, , , , , ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::And this: and this: ] (]) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. ] (]) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You have to abide by the rules like the rest of us. And cool it with the hostile edit summaries. ]] 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::]. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You are clearly ]. Attacking other editors instead of backing off, inappropriate edit summaries, what next? ]<sup>]</sup> 21:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::There ought to be a gossip noticeboard that doesn't clog up ANI. ] (]) 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I will dispute what you said. I AM HERE to build an encyclopedia. Why do you think I would have given 10,000 edits worth of my time if I didn't care? ] (]) 21:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, ] and ] tell me the contrary. ]<sup>]</sup> 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries ''and here'' indicate they're ] in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. ] (]) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::: ] over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of ] of the ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. ] (]) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::: is wikilawyering. And this is at ANI, so the discussion is taking place at ANI. Answering the concerns about your conduct that were raised here on here is how you resolve the issue, not "don't talk about it on ANI", as the latter gives the impression of trying to sweep them under the rug - especially since your edit summaries MrOllie linked above make it clear this is very much not "small potatoes". - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Here's some more diffs of KMaster888 being uncivil. From my user talk page. . I think these are forgivable if in isolation since KMaster888 may be frustrated by false accusations of being a bot, but if it's a pattern, it may need addressing.
			:The ] and ] of my user talk page and of this ANI is also a behavioral problem that, if a pattern, may also need addressing. It is disrespectful to interlocutor's time and brainpower to dominate discussions by replying to everything. –] <small>(])</small> 23:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. ] (]) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The problem isn't you responding to those comments. It's about HOW you responded to those comments. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::There are, in fact, {{tqq|specific discussion rules}} - ] and ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Propose indefinite block===
	== ] attempting to circumvent deletion process ==
			{{atop|1=Blocked and TPA revoked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 06:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|KMaster888}}
			They demonstrate a severe inability to interact in the collegiate manner this project requires. The edit summaries are not merely uncivil, but dismissive: ignoring colleagues is worse than just being rude to them. Their behaviour on Novem Linguae's talk pretty much sums it up.{{pb}}Whether they are actually a bot or running a scruipt doesn't really matter: WP:BOTLIKE is pretty cl;ear trhat "it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance". So 10,000 edits or not, the edits smack of being bot/script-generated, and may also be WP:STALKING.{{PB}}I also don't set any store by the excuse for "wiping ass with comments", "improve asinine comment" and "remove asshole" being that {{blue|Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly.}} WMF servers going down (or not) do not cause aggressive edit summaries, and we are not fools. The fact that the same attitude pervades through this discussion—"everyone, get off my back"—suggests that this is default behaviour rather than a one off. ]'']''] 23:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:You're saying "they" like it's more than one person. I am one editor. ] (]) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Not in that sense. We use they/them pronouns as to not assume an editor's gender. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' per above reasoning. ]] 23:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Looks like {{noping|Cullen328}} beat us to that indef. ]] 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' per ] behavior. Their blank talkpage, on which they encourage discussion, has a nonexistent archive. ]] 23:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:That is not true. The archive page is at the subpage of the talk page, /archive. ] (]) 23:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Support -''' While I wouldn’t have had the same suspicions about their editing as Warren, their extremely uncivil reactions to it and further questions here, along with the further attention they’ve drawn on to prior recent behaviour has effectively demonstrated an unwillingness to engage in meaningful interaction with any other editor who disagrees with them. ] (]) 23:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	Rather than accept the results of ] on ], Haines has recreated the article several times today, under various names including ], ], ] and ]. --] &#x007C; ] 18:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:Maybe revoke TPA too? This is beyond the pale. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I will not block as I closed the AfD as delete. But especially in light of ], these actions by {{user|Alastair Haines}} are disruptive. I agree with ]. ''']''' (]) 19:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::He seems to have stopped and the article is now in his userspace, which is OK, isn't it? ]<span style="background-color:white; color:grey;">&amp;</span>] 19:09, 1 December 2009 (UTC)		::Wow… ] ] 00:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{od}}I have indefinitely blocked KMaster888 for personal attacks and harassment, and disruptive behavior. ] (]) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::In addition, he removed two times a speedy deletion tag (and the tag was removed a third time with a similar edit summary by an "anonymous" IP). The article has been in his userspace for quite some time, but yesterday (at least once) and today (at least three times) he copied it into article space several times, including to ]. --] (]) 19:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:After their latest personal attack, I have revoked their talk page access. ] (]) 23:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::I'm not sure. First, shouldn't he be asking for it to be userfied instead of doing it himself (if that is what happened)? And we do need a time limit on articles in userspace, and in fact I'd much prefer them to be in the ]. I'm not happy with that behaviour being rewarded by letting it be in his userspace where it will be found via Google. ] (]) 19:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. is beyond the pale. This is clearly a person that lets rage get the best of them, and is not responsive to feedback. Not sure if we should close this, or let it play out and turn into a CBAN. –] <small>(])</small> 00:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::I see nothing wrong with userifying an article oneself. Since userification is essentially automatic except for copyvio and libel, requiring someone who is able to do it is adding unnecessary steps--except possibly when the existence of something has been exceptionally controversial, and this was not. It;s essentially equivalent to an admin deleting pages in his own userspace.<s> Normally, I do not delete single-handed myself, because I know I make a certain percentage of errors and I do not want to risk doing damage to someone' else's work unless some other Wikipedian agrees (not necessarily an admin), but in almost all cases userifying does not have the same sort of negative consequence</s>. I argued against that journal, & it is possible that what I said about it may have been decisive, but it might be possible to show it notable and I have no objection to it being in anyone's user space. anyone who wants it removed can go to MfD, but in recent decisions there we do not remove pages that have any potential at all from the space of bona fide editors for at least several months. They normally do not harm. Using the incubator is a matter of choice; it is hardly an established feature of Misplaced Pages at this point. I would not want to place any procedural obstacles in the way of improving possible articles.
			*'''Good block''' and I'd have done same if you hadn't been here first. Regardless of whether the edits were improvements, no one has the right to treat other editors as KM888 did. ] ] 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::Obviously the other things done were not good things to do; I do not know to what to attribute it except a short lapse from an otherwise excellent <s>admin</s> and editor. It was right to bring this here, but I think perhaps enough has been said. I can;t imagine it will be repeated; if it should, then some action would be required. ''']''' (]) 19:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::As I said, my main problem with userfying is the ability to use userspace to get publicity through Google. You've confused me a bit here, who are you talking about when you say excellent Admin and editor? ] (]) 19:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::I think the incubator idea is a good one. I think just having it ''somewhere'' it can be worked on is good, and satisfies the noindex issue. We all agree this is a good outcome? And given this is the sole sticking point, we can agree a block at this point would be unnecessary? ] (] '''·''' ]) 20:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::It would be worthwhile hearing from the accused party on this one.--<b><font face="Rockwell" color="blue">]</font></b> <small><font face="Rockwell" color="gold">]</font></small> 20:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::I suggested it on his talk page ( if he's the one DGG means, he's not an Admin and although he has his good points he has a bad block record). <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:25, 1 December 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:sorry about that; when it was said he userified it himself I thought you meant "undeleted and userified", and i did not check. Some of my comments are therefore irrelevant, and I struck them. Cannot any particular page is user spae be NOINDEXED? ''']''' (]) 00:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Any page can be NOINDEXED by a variety of means, the easiest of which (in my mind) is adding {{tl|NOINDEX}} to the page itself. That template is also transcluded in a number of other userspace related templates including some for userdrafts. ] (]) 02:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			* '''Good block''' It'd take a hand-written miracle from God for them to change their ways anytime soon.
	Contra the thread starter (whose good faith I don't doubt), I am opposing (inadvertent) ''admin'' obstruction to the improvement and maintenance of the encyclopedia. Admin merely enact the completed decisions of past consensuses and provide a point of contact to reopen discussion should new evidence arise. If I am mistaken, and individual admins have some intrinsic authority, then criticising their actions ought to be protected speech, not wilfully slandered as "obstruction". But I am not mistaken.
			:] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 03:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::The verifiable facts regarding this ''stub'' are:
			{{abot}}
	::# it was speedied while the subject area expert who created it was unavailable--perhaps a little unwise and precipiate, but so be it, it's permissible and the speedy proposer did the right thing by notifying me, so no harm done, I later restored sourced content that had been removed without adequate discussion to form any consensus for such an action;
	::# it was relisted for ''adequate'' (which should mean at least both informed and reasonable) discussion--absolutely fair enough--again I was absent, sorry;
	::# after some time only two responses had been posted, one of which proposed a reasonable "litmus test": is it peer reviewed? if not, ditch the thing, but if so, it deserves a chance: the score was "creater for, proposer against, 1 I don't know, default to delete, 1 I don't know, here's a basis for making a decision" and quite rightly, it was relisted because inadequate discussion provided no grounds for consensus to form, so no grounds to mandate any administrative action on behalf of the community;
	::# two brief posts were made after the manner of the first response--don't know if it's reviewed, should assume no and delete;
	::# these two posts which added nothing to the discussion were taken to constitute consensus and the article was deleted: it is this I believe is standard but ''wrong'' practise--if article creators are considered too partial to count their "votes", deletion proposers (and discussion closers at reviews) need also to be so considered--BUT it's not about voting it's about ]s, adequate documentation of reliable evidence and rationales, sufficient to bring all parties to a point of "no dissent", this is what consensus means ''sometimes it takes time'', what's the rush?
	::# I happened to drop by a while back and saw the deletion, checked the discussion--all documented in good faith according to policy robust enough to handle quibbles like this--but saw the discussion was inadequate, since basic sources had not be consulted, subject area experts (like librarians first of all) had not been sought, etc. etc., again no harm done, I restored (contacting the closing admin as requested);
	::# the closing admin defended his own action, ignored mine, and was uninterested in discussion--rather poor form I think--fortunately John put together even more evidence than I'd gathered in the brief time I was online, a deletion review was proposed, and closed (hopefully) on the excellent advice of DGG, for there was little else of substance against the article, and nothing else that interacted with John's considerable evidence.
			===Investigating the hounding claim===
	This brings us up to date. It is my own clumsy fault (and happenstance of being offline for a long time) that I didn't find the link to the deletion review which had been provided in good faith by the closer of the original discussion. Thanks to the kind offices of another responsible and good faith deletion proposer, I was able to see the deletion review and that, despite a good case by DGG, it was still not really complete. So I restored again and requested that anyone interested in deletion propose that so adequate discussion could be documented and a final verdict reached.
			Above, there is a claim that KMaster888 is ] Warrenmck by editing 100 pages that Warrenmck has edited. The suggests that there's only an overlap of 45 pages (42 if you subtract out my user talk, KMaster888's user talk, and ANI). {{u|Warrenmck}}, can you please be very specific about exactly which pages overlap? Maybe give a link to KMaster888's contribs and timestamps of where this range of hounding edits begins and ends? This is a serious claim and probably actionable if enough evidence is provided. –] <small>(])</small> 23:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Note that there are >100 ''edits'' across the pages, since they tended to edit in a spree. The number of pages you found seems accurate, even accounting for the possibility of a few outside of this exchange. I’m not sure what exactly I can do to show the relationship to my edit history beyond I guess go pull said histories and compare them? But I wouldn’t be surprised if the vast majority of the interactions you see were from that narrow window after your talk page.
	Unilateral actions by admins ensued, operating on hearsay, without examining discussion critically, and without taking into account my real life credentials offered freely to this project. The improvement and maintenance of the encyclopedia cannot be held to ransom by gung-ho (good faith but misguided) administrators. I'll not report them, or put them through requests for comment. It's a waste of time. There are too many other admins that would feel their own ''tenure'' threatened and so I don't believe a fair hearing would be possible. Also, I'm simply not vindictive.
			:Sorry for the drama, by the way. ] 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	Finally, the appropriate place for the article is in the mainspace. This article is not my article, it is ''our'' article. Italians will know much more about it than any of us. The research group is already cited at Italian Misplaced Pages. Userfying is as good as deletion, because the article is so low on my priority list I am quite likely not to come back to it. Misplaced Pages is a co-operative excercise, not a competition to score featured or good articles. Nor as Doug suggests so cynically (and untypically), to pick up hits from Google.
			::Ah that makes sense. I didn't think of the multiple edits to a page thing. No worries about the drama. –] <small>(])</small> 02:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Please don't apologise for this. Nobody should have to put up with such behaviour. ] (]) 09:47, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User:FMSky ==
	I don't particularly care whether or not the ignorant comments regarding my editing above are struck or not, because such hearsay should never be used in evidence. It might, however, be wise to strike them, because should others act on that hearsay, it becomes evidence of defamation. I am not a public figure, not notable in any way, so there is no protection for unfounded allegations regarding what I publish at this project. Such allegations need to be proven or withdrawn. Let's just cool it. I can still assume good faith at this point. It would be well if others could do the same. ] (]) 03:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=]. PolitcalPoint blocked for a month for BLP violations. - ] <sub>]</sub> 06:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	:"The appropriate place for the article is in the mainspace". But it has been deleted per an AfD discussion, so the appropriate place is not on Misplaced Pages unless it is significantly changed. Is your view that everyone at AfD and DRV was wrong, you're right, and you get to unilaterally ignore process and consensus? It feels like you're ] here. ]<span style="background-color:white; color:grey;">&amp;</span>] 03:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			{{Userlinks|FMSky}}
	:I am perfectly willing to put it in my user space is Alastair would prefer that. A case can perhaps be made that publications of this type should be on Misplaced Pages. The criteria for scientific journals was not really intended to cover newsletters of this sort, and we might find a way of handling them. But Alastair, the repeated reinsertion under multiple alternate titles does seem a little pointy, and has an unfortunate resemblance to what COI editors of properly rejected articles sometimes do with their company names and the like, so perhaps it would be helpful if you simply acknowledged as much and apologized for it. An unknown contributor doing that would probably have been blocked very quickly--I don't hesitate to do so in such circumstances. ''']''' (]) 13:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			] has been persistently engaging in ] by constantly reverting (see , , and ) in bad faith over the course of more than a week in order to prevent the insertion of sourced material that states that ] had "{{tq|touted working for her father’s anti-gay organization, which mobilized to pass a measure against ] and promoted controversial ]", which is a discredited, harmful, and ] practice that falsely purports to "cure" ].}}" backed by two ] cited (see and ) in support of the specific wording inserted into the article.
	::@Fences and windows: only DGG and John Vandenburg interacted with any evidence, so yes, what others said counts for very little, certainly less than the reliable sources I have access to.
	::@DGG, thanks for your kind offer, I already have a copy in my own user space. I'll be posting that as an article on the ''group'', rather than the journal, and simultaneously proposing it for deletion to ensure adequate discussion occurs. I'll time that so I will be available to participate in the ensuing discussion. That will be some time away, since I have other priorities.
	::I'm very confident of your judgment in the actions you take DGG. In the current case, salting of the original namespace left no place for additional evidence, which is plentiful if diligently pursued with access to theological libraries. Repeated deletions (which also removed my article talk page comments) without discussion (on my personal talk page) by deleting admins also denied any opportunity for any evidence to be presented. Orangemike should have posted to my page first, before posting here. I'm happy for you to be right that I handled this incorrectly, but I'm quite comfortable that the error was on the part of the involved admins. It's no big deal though.
	::One aspect of the difficulty is that I suspect some admins believe content editors ultimately work "provisional on admin support", whereas I believe administrators work "provisional on content editor support". I saw this very soon after openning an account at Wiki, and resolved not to request to be an administrator. There are many who already do this job well for a start, but there are times systems need to be scrutinised ''from the outside''.
	::There are many complex issues involved that won't be resolved here.
	::The important thing will be getting things right next time, when I post the article about the group.
	::As far as I'm concerned the discussion here is complete. Thanks to all who have participated. ] (]) 04:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			For my part, I have consistently maintained a strict self-imposed policy of 0RR, never even once reverting ], listening to his concerns and taking his concerns seriously, tirelessly working to address his concerns with two ] cited (see and ) in support of the exact same wording that ] originally objected to (see ), then, when reverted again by ], I patiently continued to ] and ] (see and ), which he ], then when reverted yet again by ] (see ), explained to him the entire series of events (see ), which ] replied to by blatantly lying that I had not addressed his concerns (see ), which, when I pointed that out and showed him the ] that I cited in order to address his concerns (see ), ] replied by saying verbatim "How is that even relevant? Just because something is mentioned in a source doesn't mean this exact wording is appropriate for an encyclopedia." (see ).
	== Incivility and hate-speech at ] ==
			I'm completely exasperated and exhausted at this point. If even using the ''exact same wording'' as the ] cited in support of the specific wording inserted into the article is ''still'' unacceptable to ], then I'm not sure what I'm even supposed to do to satisfy him. ] is clearly engaging in ] in bad faith and is ]. --] (]) 23:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	I have recently started a complaint that has now been archived at ]. I am concerned that it has been archived automatically and will be overlooked. To the best of my understanding, it has not been addressed. Thank you. --] (]) 19:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:@], your for "discredited, harmful, and pseudoscientific practice that falsely purports to "cure" homosexuality" doesn't mention Gabbard or Hawaii or her father's organization. Have you read ]? ]&nbsp;] 23:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Isn't this now stale? What it is ongoing problem needing admin attention? ]<span style="background-color:white; color:grey;">&amp;</span>] 19:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			::More the case that trying to assert conversion therapy as discredited is a COATRACK, unless there was appropriate sourced coverage that associated Gabbatd with supporting a discredited theory. We can leave the blue link on conversion therapy carry the worry of explaining the issues with it, it doesn't belong on a BLP.<span id="Masem:1736293194333:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators&apos;_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;] (]) 23:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)</span>
	: Yes, and I removed some of the personal attacks, but as far as I can see all of these NPAs came from random dynamic IPs that in all the cases I looked at haven't edited since. As such, blocks on the IP addresses would appear to be pointless. Is there something else I've missed? <b>]</b> 19:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			::The wording does not "imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources" as the latter part of the wording, as supported by the second ] (see ), explains what ] is for the benefit of readers. --] (]) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Stale only in the sense that no one really ever did anything about it. Continuing personal attacks against me. I've moved some of them to my talk, not all of them. I really am disappointed that I should have to be subjected to this. I've done nothing wrong, and am being vilified for my views about content. This is no way for any editor to be treated. --] (]) 19:20, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			::Are you kidding me lmao. I didn't even notice that. That makes it even worse --] (]) 23:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	<s>:::Is it possible to provide specific examples? Then your concerns can be looked at in better detail.--<b><font face="Rockwell" color="blue">]</font></b> <small><font face="Rockwell" color="gold">]</font></small> 19:41, 1 December 2009 (UTC)</s>
			:::Only commenting on this particular angle: {{ping|Schazjmd}} when dealing with fringe ideas, it ''is'' sometimes the case that sources provide weight connecting the subject to a fringe idea but which do not themselves adequately explain the fringe theory. If it's due weight to talk about something like conversation therapy (or creation science, links between vaccines and autism, etc.), we run afoul of ] if we don't provide proper context. These cases are rare, however, and this isn't a judgment about anything in the rest of this thread. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 02:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::I've looked through this user's talk page history. Admins, any thoughts on ?--<b><font face="Rockwell" color="blue">]</font></b> <small><font face="Rockwell" color="gold">]</font></small> 19:52, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:The user was previously blocked and was only unblocked after agreeing to 0RR on BLPs. This was violated in the 3 reverts here and the concerns weren't adressed: , , . See also the previous discussion on PoliticalPoint's talk page that I initiated -- ] (]) 23:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::It is very alike to .--<b><font face="Rockwell" color="blue">]</font></b> <small><font face="Rockwell" color="gold">]</font></small> 19:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::(edit conflict) Thank you. For a start, please take another look at the archived part, where I provided a huge number of diffs, and some of them, actually, were from registered users, then go forward through those users' contribution histories. If you'd like, I can then round up more diffs. P.S. after the edit conflict: yes, thanks for that too. --] (]) 19:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)		:{{tq|FMSky replied by saying verbatim "How is that even relevant? Just because something is mentioned in a source doesn't mean this exact wording is appropriate for an encyclopedia.}} I love how you, in bad faith, left out the most relevant part that I added: "And the statements weren't even attributed to someone" --] (]) 23:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::As ] (see ), those were edits, not reverts, over the course of more than week, and as also ] (see and ) your concerns with the wording were in fact addressed with two ] cited in support with the ''exact same wording'' that you objected to, verbatim. You are blatantly lying again, as the statement is, in fact, attributed to Gabbard herself as it is she herself who "touted working for her father's anti-gay organization", which is backed by the first ] (see ). --] (]) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::: Yes, this was what I was talking about. Hasn't edited for over 48 hours, and is a dynamic IP. The only remaining IP still talking (unless I've missed something), is the 24.x.x.x one which is being slightly brusque but hardly incivil. If it was actually continuing the personal attacks which the other ones were, I would block it. <b>]</b> 19:57, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			::::No, these were reverts, as the wording I originally objected to was restored numerous times --] (]) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::True. But is there anything that can be done about the likely sockpuppetry? It is pretty much the same comment from 2 different IPs.--<b><font face="Rockwell" color="blue">]</font></b> <small><font face="Rockwell" color="gold">]</font></small> 20:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			:::::Those were edits over the course of over a week. The wording that you originally objected to was restored only with two ] that use the ''exact same wording'' verbatim. --] (]) 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::(ec) I just now actually looked at those diffs. In fairness, I have to say that the later one was made by reverting my removal of the first. (And that was very mild, compared to the diffs that I reported earlier.) But the whole business arose from off-site instigation at what is basically a hate site. I've been wondering about sockery in other contexts (an IP says something awful, then another editor ''immediately'' comes on with crocodile tears after making attacks earlier, etc.), but I don't see how I could make a strong enough case for CU. --] (]) 20:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			::::::If you used the same wording as the sources without an attributed quote you've committed a copyright violation. ] (]) 00:16, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::After all, if Tryptofish is right about the registered users, can they be blocked?--<b><font face="Rockwell" color="blue">]</font></b> <small><font face="Rockwell" color="gold">]</font></small> 20:06, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Or, at the very least, warned strongly. (Some have also been making nasty comments at other editors' talk pages.) --] (]) 20:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)		::::Restoring removed content even without using the undo feature is a revert. ] (]) 00:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::In fact, wait a minute, about that 24. IP, take a look at ]. Last comment, repudiating warning from admin, is from that IP address, but in the voice of a registered user. --] (]) 20:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)		::::::See above, Gabbard isn't even mentioned in one of the sources, which is insane and negates the need for any further discussion. This content should not be on her page & is probably the definition of a BLP violation. --] (])
	:::::::Can someone please do something about this, because it appears that we've only been scratching the surfaces of the problem here.--<b><font face="Rockwell" color="blue">]</font></b> <small><font face="Rockwell" color="gold">]</font></small> 20:44, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Thank you! And just now at my talk (including telling me to kill myself!). --] (]) 20:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::: as well, possible relation to the registered user whose name appears in the edit? --] (]) 21:01, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::: Yeah, looking at that. I semi'd your talkpage for a few days to head off any further stupidity. <b>]</b> 21:25, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::Thanks, I just noticed the semi, and I appreciate it a lot. --] (]) 21:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::A day later: the user you see in that link appears to be following me from page to page, and has put the anti-hate speech header that was recently on the article talk page onto his user talk page. --] (]) 00:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	I recommend in future that you don't pick stuff like that up from the article and cart it back to your talkpage. It looks so much worse on an article talkpage, you're more likely to get something done about it. One of the IPs vandalised my talkpage and got offed by Materialscientist for its pains. I've thrown ] off myself - so far he hasn't been back, though I don't know if he's been bothering the Fish. ] (]) 22:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Elen, I'm unsure what you mean. Are you referring to where I moved the bogus accusations about me to my talk? My reasoning was that it had nothing to do with the article talk page, and my replying to it was necessary but also unrelated to the article talk page. This is getting awfully tough for me: I get criticized when I say that I do not object to leaving the bad stuff on the article talk page, and then (if I understand?) I get criticized for moving it off. --] (]) 23:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Wasn't criticising you (sorry if it sounded that way), more along the lines of not taking stray dogs home. That rubbish may have been aimed at you, but leaving it on the article talkpage and ignoring it may have been a better option than shifting it to your talk page where, after all, you didn't actually want some of it. ] (]) 23:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::What I didn't want at my talk has been reverted. My experience has been that rubbish that stays at the article ends up getting repeated as though it were true. Anyway, the admins don't need to read this (so maybe I'll move ''this'' to my talk -- joke!). --] (]) 23:20, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
			Besides removing obvious SYNTH, I notice that FMSky reworked unnecessary overquoting; looks like good editing on FMSky's part. ] (]) 00:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:You are quite correct Tryptofish, anon users and IPs frequently post slander that is repeated as if true, and administrators are untrained in dealing with this. What you need is a third party willing to delete talk page posts that add nothing to discussion of the article and malign you in attempt to discourage you from editing. Please feel free to drop a note at my talk page any time and I will evaluate posts ''you'' believe to be useless and injurious. I cannot promise to agree with you in any particular case. I might be a disappointment. But such posts breach the copyright license and the Foundation is duty bound to protect you, even if, as you do, you opt to exercise your right to publish anonymously. ] (]) 03:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Alastair, you might want to refactor that slightly. I agree that IPs in this case posted a great deal of uncivil nonsense. I don't think it's an issue about admin training. If anything had been said that actually constituted slander (as opposed to abuse) Tryptofish was free to highlight that. But what you're saying about copyright license is just....nonsense. ] (]) 15:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Thank you, both of you. I appreciate that both of you are sympathetic, and I trust that the admins, will, in due course, do what they believe best helps Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 17:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	And, at this point, I'd just like to check back about where we stand. As Sky Attacker so very correctly said, we have yet to really scratch the surface of a significant problem here (not just for me personally, but for the good of the entire Wiki). So, I'll repeat Sky Attacker's question: can someone please do something about this? Thanks! --] (]) 17:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Exactly what is to be done? The civility and ] issues on the talk page have now subsided. Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages, not to punish users. If the disruptive behavior has stopped, then there is no reason to hand out blocks. —''']'''&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]) 22:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Farix, it hasn't stopped. It may be moving more to my talk page, but it hasn't stopped. And per above, there may be other issues including sockery. --] (]) 22:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Looking at the history of your talk page, that's already been dealt with with your talk page semi-protected. If it continues, you need to cite specific diffs rather then vaguely cry that someone needs to "do something". —''']'''&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]) 23:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::I need to ask this, and I realize it sounds kind of obnoxious, but please understand that I don't mean anything bad by it. Farix, you aren't an admin, are you? (If I'm wrong, please accept my apology for even asking!) If you aren't, please let the admins continue to look at what I think they are looking at. Again, sorry for the way that sounds. --] (]) 23:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Few administrators are going to act on anything until there is clear evidence. If you have an issue with an editor, you need to bring it along with the diffs. —''']'''&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]) 01:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	And now, please see: , , and . --] (]) 00:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Copy editing, help with sourcing, and a joke? Why, that's the most uncivil thing I've ever seen. Certainly this nefarious user should be banned from Misplaced Pages forever for helping out other articles noticed under a user's contributions while checking to see if he was violating consensus again. Also, why is this on ANI?] (])
	::Agreed, those edits are a copy edit, a source and a non-offensive joke (PETA in Anime indeed). Tryptofish you need to calm down. Yzak Jule, you've got the poor boy (boy? well I think he's a boy) all in a tizz and he's panicking every time he sees your name. It's unfortunate, you've come in on the tail of some truly offensive IPs, so I think you're getting the reaction to them. ] (]) 00:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Looks like a potential ] case to me. Yzak Jule, I advice you to completely disengage from Tryptofish, that includes not following him around in his edit history. It doesn't do either of you any good. Tryptofish, if Yzak Jule keeps following you around, start a new complaint with the diffs. —''']'''&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]) 01:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Excellent advice from these people Trypt, if you ask me. Certainly I couldn't help better with what you've posted. If there's serious stuff, it can take forever to go through processes designed to screen out trivia like these last three diffs you've posted. Too many people cry "Wolf", and genuine pleas for assistance go unheeded. If there's serious stuff, I volunteer to be your first "informal" attempt at mediation. Don't hit people with clubs when a simple third party could clear it up. Relax, enjoy, there's plenty of people here being really supportive to you. Three cheers for them! :) ] (]) 04:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	== Jack Merridew's disruptive signature ==
	Is , not only that, it obscures surrounding text. I realize this isn't the signature he uses most often, but please, please prevent him from using it ever again. I myself wish to refactor instances of said signature, as they are unquestionably disruptive and there is really no purpose for a signature that blatantly disruptive. For full transparency, I happened upon this signature twice; it was called to my attention per a page I am watching. As a note, I did him of this report.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 22:32, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Did you ask him to change it? ] 22:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Such would be a pointless endeavor, as every time I have ever posted a message to his page(except for a single exception, but this message had nothing to do with edits he made, but another refactoring them), he has deleted it without addressing the points brought up in it or responding. I trust the same would happen with this, hence, I ask for assistance of those whose words have more weight.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 22:39, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Well, I asked him. There's nothing else really to be done until he responds. ] 22:42, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:: I warned him that I will block him if he ignores the community and still keeps the sig. The sig is clearly disruptive. ] <sup>]</sup> 22:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::No, you will do nothing of the sort. Really, don't be silly. "Disruption" is a term used for serious things like nationalist flaming, wikistalking, etc. Or perhaps for starting baseless ANI threads. Not for one-off signature use. ] (]) 01:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::: At the time of writing this, his most recent contribution was to a talk page, and used a fairly normal signature (see ). So, it may not be a problem anymore. Although, a friendly notice is not a bad idea either, since he might not realize that there was a problem with the old one. ] ] 23:52, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::A friendly notice ''was'' given, and immediately followed up by a threat of a block before he had a chance to respond. ] 23:54, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::: Jack knows what he's doing, that's why I warned him harshly. Lets just hope he gets rid of that sig. ] <sup>]</sup> 00:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::There is a definite pattern of this editor ignoring administrators repeated warnings to stop certain behavior. That is probably were some of Secret's frustration comes from. The only problem is administrators never follow through with these warnings. ] (]) 01:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Not to be rude, but I think the pot just called the kettle black. You've been told your obsession with JM has gone way too far, and yet - here you are. ] (]) 01:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Not to be rude, but I didn't know that only editors such as yourself and AniMate are able to comment here. If that is the case, you should put a tag up above that this is the case, "Only traditional supporters of Jack Merridew allowed to comment in this section". After you responded here Morschi, an editor who has always been an obsessively staunch supporter of Jack Merridew, I felt like I should comment. I can see now why White Cat absolutely did not want you as a mentor.
	::::::I recall once that Jack Merridew was specifically warned before about his signature, by Secret? Can't seem to find it though, maybe I am wrong.
	::::::Secret, if you feel like this editor should be booted for ignoring your repeated warnings, you should, you would be the first administrator to do this in my experience. ] (]) 01:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	← Lets put down the torches and pitchforks and give Jack some time to respond. ] <sup>]</sup> 00:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*What Tiptoety said. He seems to have used it ''twice'', a day or two ago, apparently as a bit of a joke. All his sigs since then have been normal. The fact that long ANI threads are being generated, and block threats are being bandied about, is disappointing. Lighten up people. --] (]) 01:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Indeed. Jack's not particularly happy over the attitude certain people have taken towards him recently, and this ridiculous thread is hardly going to ease his sense of being persecuted, is it? Secret: please try cooling things down for once rather than fanning the flames. ] (]) 01:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::And on that note, let's not imply that Secret ''always'' fans flames. Secret is a good admin. Let's keep things in perspective all the way around. ] &#124; ] 01:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	Grins ;)
	Many here would know the backstory; this is drama surrounding my unban review. What does Daedalus want? ''He want's permission to go refactor a few of my sigs.'' Many will recall the retired tag he placed on a neapolitan mastiff's user page and the barnstar I offered to the 'zilla that flamed him. And one of the other strident voices (nods @ threads south && Sir Fozzie's talk page) just went off for mebbe two days; we'll see...
	So, I ''like'' the feedback about the 'overlapping' text and have figured out how to <span class="plainlinks"></span>.
	My current 'sig' in prefs is:
	* <tt><nowiki><span style="text-shadow: 0.15em 0.15em 0.2em rgba(0,0,0,0.4);">]</span></nowiki></tt>
	and, by far, most of the sigs I've used are this:
	* <tt><nowiki>]</nowiki></tt>
	Ya, I've made a few posts where I paste a bit of extra code around ''five'' tildes to generate the datestamp. This is maybe a dozen times over a year. This is not disruptive; it's funny. ''Calling'' it disruptive is strident battleground behaviour. Daedalus is known for this and for his ]<sup style="font-size: 80%; vertical-align: 0.6em;">]</sup> re sockpuppets, and Ikip has a thing for me; obviously.
	: ''Damn; cutting-short as I see a more important thing to comment on...''
	Cheers, <span style="text-shadow: 0.15em 0.15em 0.2em rgba(0,0,0,0.4);">]</span> 04:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (who *is* a sockpuppet, and who has resisted the copypasta temptation;)
	::This has nothing to do with the fact that you're a sock puppet, it has to do with the fact that your signature is 5 lines, 1414 characters of text, and is clearly disruptive. Calling a disruptive signature disruptive is not battleground behavior. I don't care to sort through five lines of code, and I'm sure neither does anyone else, hence why secret agreed with me on the manner. Please stop trying to skew the facts.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 09:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::: Hai, Dae. Terima kasih; someone had mentioned the text overlap concern, elsewhere. It was not doing so for me, so expect it's the usual reason: your platform and user agent. Anyswayz, I haz fixed it gud. gheerz, <span style="text-shadow: 0.15em 0.15em 0.2em rgba(0,0,0,0.4);">]</span> 09:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	I first discussed Jack Merridew's signature on Nov. 24 on his unban review: "Signatures like the one he used today are not really evidence of "helping the wiki through his contributions" or benevolent editing." I raised the problem again on Nov. 30, when he used that signature again: "To highlight Jack Merridew's use of a very poor signature (content and format, overlapping text)?". I reposted that comment (which was drowned in off-topic discussion) a few hours later. So it's not as if he was unaware of any objections wrt his signature (which he used at least four times, not two as said above). Despite all this and despite this section, his most recent edit is . If anyone can inform him that being deliberately provocative is not helpful at all (with a trout or with a more powerful cluebat), we can perhaps end this aspect of this sorry mess. ] (]) 09:48, 2 December 2009 (UTC)'
	: Hey, Fram. I've my eye on my mentor's comments above. Sincerely, <span style="text-shadow: 0.15em 0.15em 0.2em rgba(0,0,0,0.4);">]</span> 10:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:: What's that supposed to mean? Do you refer to Moreschi's "Not for one-off signature use." comment? It's not really one-off anymore, certainly not when you continue it despite requests to stop, and being clearly against the ] guideline. ] (]) 10:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::: Moreschi ''is'' one of my mentors and has little trouble with this. And note that SIG says ''“it is best treated with ], and ] may apply.”'' ({{tl|Subcat guideline}}, really; goes for *all* guidelines). See also: "Lighten up people. --Floquenbeam." Cheers, <span style="text-shadow: 0.15em 0.15em 0.2em rgba(0,0,0,0.4);">]</span> 10:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::: Contrary to what has been said below, IAR is probably the most abused term on Misplaced Pages. Can you explain how your (continued) use of your extremely long signature meets: "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it." ? How would using a much shorter sig prevent you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages? ] (]) 10:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::: '''''“common sense, and occasional exceptions”'' ;)''' <span style="text-shadow: 0.15em 0.15em 0.2em rgba(0,0,0,0.4);">]</span> 11:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (and a sense of humour;)
	*"Disruptive" is probably the most abused term on Misplaced Pages, and Daedalus could be the editor most worried about other people's talkpages.(You came to regret it last time, didn't you, Dae? ) Jack Merridew is welcome on my page, Fram. There must surely be various more useful things to do around here than worry about JM's sig on my page, where I for my part don't by any means find it "deliberately provocative". Chill, please. ] | ] 10:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC).
	::I wasn't worried that he was provoking ''you'' Bishonen, you sided with him against Daedalus previously. When it has been pointed out repeatedly, by various people, that a specific signature is a problem, then it is provocative to use it again during that discussion, even on a page of a supporter. ] (]) 10:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	So, it looks quite obvious that Jack Merridew isn't going to stop using his ''1400+ character'' signature... unless someone makes him stop. ] (]) 11:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	And that would be dreadful? We'd better block him indefinitely, then, perhaps. More to the point, I sided with..? Eh? I did? Memory failing, sorry. ''When'' did I side with JM against Daedalus? Do please tell. ] | ] 11:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC).
	I don't recall, either; there was <span class="plainlinks"></span>, but I don't think Fram's looking for that. It's *so* under the bridge these days. Cheers, <span style="text-shadow: 0.15em 0.15em 0.2em rgba(0,0,0,0.4);">]</span> 11:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (do we need a sig-example, here?;)
	*Fram, that's his TALK PAGE. Editors are traditionally afforded wide latitude as to what they do there. So long as he doesn't do this at DRV or AFD or ANI, where I acknowledge long sigs are a real pain in the butt, this thread is so much vindictive drama-mongering. ] (]) 11:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	**Hey, ALL CAPS! I love the wikilawyering that is used by all kinds of people to continuously defend Jack Merridew. Any reason you believe he continues using that sig except to continue the "drama-mongering"?
	***Um right. Don't you think that if Jack wanted to stir the pot, he'd do rather better than occasionally using an OTT sig? On his talk page? No, I think we can safely assume the drama-mongering here is done by the small but obsessively devoted crowd who want to see JM banned for a year of mostly drama-free editing, mostly, as far as I can tell, for either ideological reasons or just personal vendettas. ] (]) 12:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	****No I don't think so (about his actions, not about the reasons for many of his opponents). He is (in my opinion) the kind of user who is smart enough to stay just below the line where even his wiki-friends have to admit that he is deliberately stirring up trouble. Ask yourself: why would he use an extremely long in-your-face signature, highlighting his socking career? And why would he continue to use it, after repeated remarks about it, and during an ongoing ANI discussion? Oh, but his last uses were only on his own talk page and on a <s>canvassing attempt</s> friendly editor's talkpage, no one can complain about that, surely...? It's just a case of "I'm doing it because I can and because I know a number of people will support me anyway". Encouraging such baheviour is not really the purpose of mentoring, I believe... ] (]) 12:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*****Because that's the way his sense of humour functions, Fram. For whatever reason, David gets a kick out of referring to himself as "sockpuppet first class", and surely such candour about his history is to be encouraged? If I did the same thing on my talk page every now and then, with a long and in-your-face sig referring to my myself as "meatpuppeteer first class" (in reference to the recent Ottava Rima RFAR), nobody would bat an eyelid.
	*****David is not being wilfully offensive here. It requires incredible contortions of logic to find that signature offensive in any way at all. It's not even that long, not in comparison to Esperanza-crowd signatures era mid-2006. Instead, the anti-JM crowd are being wilfully offended. It's annoying as hell, frankly. ] (]) 12:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	******Not that long? Well, only 5 times the max length... That there have been worse in the past is hardly an argument, it's not as if I supported those longer ones. And do you really believe that if, during a debate about the alleged hounding of A Nobody and the impact it may have on the editing restrictions imposed after being banned for hounding another editor, e.g. A Nobody would find it "humorous" to be adressed with "Cheers! — Happy Editing!! — Have a nice day!!! — Best!!!! — Regards!!!!! —Sincerely, Sockpuppet First Class, Jack Merridewthis user is a sock puppet", or that it takes "incredible contortions of logic to find that signature offensive in any way at all"? Apart from the obvious and unadressed WP:SIG violations, this only has the intention to spite people like A Nobody. I don't see the humour in that. ] (]) 12:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Your ArbCom case from July? The one where you said that "I agree that calling Daedalus a little shit was wrong." (on July 20), but were more than happy to put Jack's "barnstar" commemorating the fact on your user page on July 22? ] (]) 11:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::''That'''s the "sided with him against Daedalus"...? I do see. Don't you think it would be best to stop now, Fram ? ] | ] 11:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC).
	:::He knew how you felt about Daedalus. You knew how he felt about Daedalus. You congratulated one another with calling him a little shit. And when there is a thread by Daedalus about Jack Merridew, he comes to your talk page and posts a link to it, and you immediatley come over here (first post you made after Jack's message). Liek you said, I don't think I need to continue this, everyone can see this for what it is... ] (]) 12:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Excuse me? This thread is starting to remind me of the Ottava Rima RFAR, where I was also informed (by OR) that I "knew" this, that and the other (compare my evidence section "It Was Not a Coincidence") and had to try to guess what it was even about. What are you talking about, Fram? "You knew how he felt about Daedalus. You congratulated one another with calling him a little shit"... I'm starting to feel terribly ignorant, because no, I didn't know that. (Didn't know what Ottava Rima was talking about, either.) I don't edit that much lately. If there is a pre-existing conflict between JM and Daedalus, or between JM and you, Fram, then ''I did not know that''. I still don't know it. I am not, perhaps sadly, a major conspirator and plot spider. If you're determined to quarrel with me, I have no idea why. All the opinion I've ever had about ''you'' is that sometimes when I see your sig, I think "Oh, cool account name." (Like ]'s ship, you know?) Please refrain from those ] comments: "Everyone can see this for what it is, dot dot dot..." Actually, *I* can't even see it for what it is, since I'm not aware of it being ''anything''. Good-bye. ] | ] 16:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC).
	::::<s>Fram, Fram, Fram...You know that this message of Jack's is obscured by his signature, but did your realize to the posts above that his posts were not obscured by the signature!</s> Wait....is this one his new signature? - <sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 12:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I did find his signature to be superbly confusing. It really resembles that of a menu bar of a website. It was lucky for him to find a new one. None of the Misplaced Pages highs had such signatures, not even ] himself! - <sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 12:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Something tells me you weren't around in 2006 to see the Esperanza crowd and their 6-line all-singing all-dancing sigs in full flow :) ] (]) 12:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	My user page sported a sock box for eight months while I was en:banned. I *was* still here and I made 10,000 edits; they just were on WMF projects other than this zoo. My unban terms directed me to use this account, ''so I do.'' It's a sockpuppet account, ''so I say so.'' It's been on my user page all year long, until this long week of shit-slinging kicked into gear. '''''Jack Merridew is a sockpuppet.''''' Some have a hard time with this concept. I do not fucking care. Deal with it. I am *not* being disruptive, but the torch and pitchfork crowd *is* and none of them are doing themselves or the project any good. Someone box this stupidity, please? Here's teh sig, for great justice and epic lulz, as an example, and just this one on ANI.--] 12:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC) (see ])
	p.s. Fram, would you consider undeleting all the bits of my user space that I delete-tagged on the 25th or so? If not, I invite any interested janitor to please do so; sorry for the fuss.
	:Users have big wiki-sigs for the same reason middle-aged men buy sports cars; over-compensation. There is no valid or viable reason to sport that ridiculous monstrosity. ] (]) 16:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:If signatures of that length were not disruptive, we would not have had so many threads regarding their use, threads which ended with the user being forced to use a normal signature. Further, you do not need 1400 characters to say that your account is a sockpuppet, Jack. Being the smart person that you are, I fail you see how you could fail to see such a simple thing. The fact of the matter is that sigs like the one above are unquestionably disruptive. I'm not rooting for anyone's block here, I just want the damn thing to be gone. The sig is disruptive, and no amount of wikilawyering will change that. It isn't much to ask to use one which doesn't break 255 characters, one which will say the same, but with less ornaments.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 22:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	Another example of WikiSoapOperaEternal - surviving even the Guiding Light. If Merridew is your bete-noire of the day, just let him be left alone. With the folks being active here being the same ones active in other pages about Merridew, it certainly appears that the primary interest is not in preventing a bad sig, but in chasing him. Time to close this unproductive sideshow. ] (]) 12:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	== Shopping for an appropriate forum ==
	Hey, the shopping season has officially started, right? I'm looking for the right forum in which to discuss my concerns about a particular editor. There are several issues that touch upon many categories, while not fitting neatly into any single category. Do I shotgun my concerns to the various distinct but applicable noticeboards, or is there an industrious admin with significant free time reading this who can formulate a comprehensive, single course of action? Here's the background information followed by my specific concerns:
	On November 6, ] added a paragraph to the ] BLP article. I removed it because it violated several ] policy stipulations including sourcing, verifiability and inaccurate contentious material. This was my first interaction with this editor. He repeatedly reinserted the content, so I him against edit warring and BLP violations. He was for 31 hours for 3RR and edit warring. Immediately following the block of IP96.xxx, ] appears and continues arguing for the inclusion of that same paragraph, eventually re-adding it. Shortly after that, ] picks up the same argument, and starts re-adding the same content. I heard ducks quacking, so I initiated a Sockpuppet Investigation ]. Checkuser confirmed 96.231.137.242 = DyadTriad = Valerius Tygart, among others. The editor admits using the many registered and unregistered accounts, but denies using them abusively - contrary to the findings of the SPI case page and the checkuser results. Several of his sock accounts were blocked, and the case archived. Since then, Valerius Tygart has resumed re-inserting the contentious paragraph into the Maher article once per day, each day, for over two weeks now — despite objections from editors on the talk page. In addition, this editor has been attempting to modify his archived Sockpuppet Investigation case page, to the point of getting himself yet again for disruptive editing. Despite (and during) this block, as I type this, he is still maintaining his slow-burn edit war on the Maher article with his Tygart account.
	As for forums, I could post on the ] so that other editors can tell Tygart what he already knows: he's trying to insert poorly sourced content into a BLP that intentionally misrepresents the subject's views, against policy. But that doesn't stop the repeated reverts. I could post at the 3RR/Edit Warring noticeboard, but the once-per-day revert war doesn't technically violate 3RR, does it? Perhaps I should go to ] and request page protection until the BLP violations are resolved? I could go to the SPI noticeboard and say, "Hey - this confirmed puppeteer is editing with some of his accounts while his other accounts are blocked for disruptive editing - what gives?", but the case is already closed. Any suggestions? ] (]) 22:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Here would appear to be the best place. Did the SPI conclude that Valerius Tygart was the sockmaster? If so, a longer block would seem appropriate. --] (]) 23:01, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	::If what you say is true, then this reeks of gaming. I would suggest a longer than usual ban just to beat it into people's heads that no, we aren't idiots, and we can see what you're trying to do. Things like a once per day edit to avoid 1/3rr is clearly an attempt to skirt the rules. Give them a long ban, and keep them on a short leash when they get back. If they can't play nice, then indef-block. ] (]) 23:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::I suggest that ] be indef-blocked for disruptive editing. Using an IP to tamper with his own sockpuppet report takes the cake. (If you're trying to convince people that you're an incorrigible sockpuppeteer, that's a good way to do it). He should be told that the block could be lifted if he would agree to edit with only a single account, and refrain from editing the ] article. He could still participate on the article's talk page. ] (]) 02:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::: I was the admin who blocked IP 96.231.137.242 for edit-warring at ], recommended the filing of ], and then blocked the confirmed sock accounts after confirming that they were being used abusively. At that stage I blocked the sockmaster {{User|Valerius Tygart}} only for 31 hours in order not to be punitive, and assuming that the socking and disruption would stop. Given that the sockpuppetry has been goind on for over two years and has continued even after the SPI confirmation, I support EdJohnston's suggestion above. Additionally, the ] article can be semi-protected, if needed to prevent . ] (]) 03:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::That puts the icing on the SPI cake! Have you blocked the IP already? - <sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 12:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Tygart has used at least these 2 IPs since the closure of his SPI case: ] and ]. They appear to be static, not dynamic IPs. Tygart claims to use multiple accounts "legitimately", but I stopped assuming good faith after checkuser J.delanoy confirmed Tygart = 140.139.35.250 = Dogwood123, but Tygart denies ever being deceptive or saying, . Either Tygart or J.delanoy is lying, and I know where I'd put my money. ] (]) 19:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	== Disruptive edits at ] ==
	{{UserIP|62.16.204.103}} has been repeatedly making ] changes to an attributed listing in ]. I see this as disruptive editing, and I have left warnings in the past (several in October, and a final warning in November). However, I am not so sure I should impose the block myself, because the attributed version was my initiative, in order to prevent the list looking (see ]). This does seem more an issue of disruptive editing, rather than a content dispute (in which case ] says a can't make the block myself), but I figure I would err on the side of caution. -- ] ] 00:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Call me a weenie if you want but I hesitate to call that vandalism. It may be bad editing, but I can't call that ''deliberate'' disruption, even if the information is unattributed. It's more like being ] than anything else. Even disruptive editing, if done in good faith, is not considered vandalism per ]. -- ''']'''] 02:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	: From my experience, the articles about Somali clans make up one nasty swamp of unattributed information & endless questions of notability. (Combine the usual problems with articles about US high schools & micronations -- that's what one gets to tackle with these articles.) If I could find one solid source which covered most of them, I'd tackle the challenge -- but all I've found are brief overviews & the occasional description of a few of the larger clans. And I doubt no one but our Somali editors even care about this sinkhole at the edge of Misplaced Pages -- & they aren't the most objective editors to leave these articles to. -- ] (]) 00:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	== Please ban two users from article Gilad Atzmon ==
	There has been a long term edit war between ] and ] on article ]. They have been on various mediations and raised wikiquette alerts and suchlike but it goes on an on, the latest such complaint is at ].
	I have suggested on the WQA that both editors should be banned from that article for some months and let other editors have a go at it. I think banning both would lead to least rancour between theeditors and hopefully let them both go off and do something more useful instead. Editor ] concurs with this view. Drsmoo agrees but CarolMooreDC is not happy with such a ban. Can this be done or is there a better way of dealing with a problem like this please? ] (]) 01:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:In fact CarolMooreDC now says at the end of that WQA they agree with a voluntary block for two montrhs but wants something stuck in the article. your call. ] (]) 01:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::As Dmcq noted above, I support banning the two editors from the article, either temporarily or permanently. I tried to work with them on a compromise in April, but nothing came of it. <small>Full disclosure: I've made a handful of small edits to the article.</small> —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 05:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::I agree with the article ban, I don't think any changes should be made to the article per any of our wishes before the ban though, or any sections deleted by admins not working on the article. If the other editors working on the page feel that a section should be removed and changed, then they should do that themselves after discussion.
	:::Similarly, earlier this year there was a 6 month lock on the article. Immediately after the article was unlocked, CarolmooreDC proceeded to remove a whole section, and the edit war resumed exactly as it had been. Along with the constant personal attacks against me on noticeboards. With a 2 month ban, it will just be the exact same thing again.
	:::I have no objection to both of us being permanently banned from the article, IPs included, to prevent any sock puppetry. I have confidence that the Misplaced Pages community will ensure that the article follows guidelines. ] (]) 12:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::Hopefully people will read the whole ] I initiated to deal with issues with Drsmoo in a ] which had had an ]. It still had some WP:RS, WP:OR and POV problems which I could not address without constant reverts by Drsmoo and constantly being followed everywhere I tried to get neutral opinions with false allegations, among others, that I was trying to turn the article into a "defense of his anti-semitism." An obvious personal attack inferring I am an antisemite. ] (]) 15:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::It was your Wikiquette alert that precipitated this. That you decided to completely impose your POV changes, re-lengthening the article you claimed you had shortened (which you shortened only technically, almost sarcastically, and that was about 3-4x longer than the Hipcorite and SlimVirgin edits) despite no one agreeing with them is another of the reasons this is where it is. You haven't waited for a single noticeboard to make a decision, or accepted any of them. I mean you were even working behind the scenes with other editors on your talk page, outside the article talk page, and badmouthing other editors http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Carolmooredc&diff=279500434&oldid=279498060 "Also, what to do about Rance? He's been rather sneaky about getting his own writings in there without his name being mentioned (going to fix that now) but not as bad as THF and Drsmoo" Why are you so unwilling to let the rest of the wikipedia community, outside the two of us, work on this article by themselves? ] (]) 16:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Drsmoo, you are bringing up inaccurately described or irrelevant issues from before the 5 month protection period. The only relevant issue from that time is an Admin's advice that Drsmoo was being “unnecessarily confrontational” and, after further incidents, against “derogatory views" against Atzmon or other editors. Obviously I should have come to Wikietiquette immediately after Drsmoo's first accusation against me once the article was unprotected. I see that ] may recommend it more quickly than I originally had interpreted. I have learned my lesson. ] (]) 20:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::And I should have reported you for incivility when you began attacking me over a year ago (October 2008) which you have continued until today http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Drsmoo&diff=prev&oldid=247998967 "your questionable edits which delete sourced material and defend only with POV personal opinions" http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Gilad_Atzmon&diff=prev&oldid=247805478 "pushing your personal POV opinion" and on and on and on for over a year, even when you were censured for editing with "an appalling lack of good faith" you continued attacking me. This is the last time I'm going to trade back and forths with you, period. Please explain why you are so unwilling to let the rest of the wikipedia community, outside the two of us, work on this article by themselves? ] (]) 20:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	{{od}}Will you two please stop bringing your petty bickering to every forum in which your names are mentioned. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 21:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	'''Comment.''' I was involved with this article a while back (6 months+?), my involvement originating with a ] post. It was obvious then that a number of editors were using the article as a battleground, with persistent attempts to quote the subject's political statements (he's a musician, BTW) out of context, and generally developing a ]. Many of the subject's statements are somewhat inflammatory in this controversial area, but attempts to explain the subject's reasoning were always resisted and sidelined, in an attempt (occasionally explicitly stated) to show that the subject is anti-semitic, rather than merely intensely critical of Israel.
	Drsmoo was one of a number of editors pursuing this position, whilst CaroleMooreDC was attempting a more balanced article. Without delving into the ins and outs of the dispute resolution of this interminable issue (who said what to whom), it's clear to me that it is in the best interests of Misplaced Pages for Drsmoo to be permanently banned from editing the article. At the same time, I'd suggest a two-month voluntary ban for CaroleMoore. I think both can be trusted to use the talk page appropriately, but that remains to be seen. ] <sup>]</sup> 15:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	== IP editor at Editor assistance ==
	An ip editor who has been vandalizing a page may have made a legal threat, I informed them of ] and gave them a talkback message on their user talk, but I'm not sure what they're going to do. --''']''' ''(] | ])'' 03:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Most definitely a legal threat. IP blocked for two weeks (should it be longer? Seems like a static address...) ] &#124; ] 04:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Tan, on the face of it, this doesn't appear to be such a good blocking move. The guy said his legal representative had actually written to WMF. If he's done that, he;'s done what we ask people to do, so I'm not sure why you are blocking him. We don't block people while a legal argument with WMF takes its course. Also, Has someone checked that the article doesn't contain a potential BLP vio in amongst all the NPOV stuff. If he was involved in the case (or his kid was) that is a distinct possibility. --] (]) 16:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::WP:LEGAL states, "Do not issue legal threats on Misplaced Pages pages." Stating that you sent the "letter" to WMF legal (this is implied; he didn't state that it was WMF), and then following that up with "a ban will just make it worse FYI", causes my AGF to DIAF. ] &#124; ] 16:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	== Slrubenstein ==
	{{resolved|1=Reporting editor community-banned. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 14:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)}}
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=1&username=Slrubenstein
	<s>{{tl|discussion top|This message board is not for dispute resolution, Slrubenstein is not an admin, has abused nothing, and has committed no action in this situation which requires admin intervention. If you seek an opinion on the tone of his comments, or if you feel he has breached civility or etiquette in some way, please report to ]. --]''''']''''' 05:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)}}</s>
	], an admin with a dubious history, is engaging in personal attacks,assuming bad faith, and commenting on editors rather than edits here: ]. Could someone please caution him? This, coupled with his recent abusive uses of the tools, tends to show a disregard for the normative behavour expected from tool weilding editors.--] (]) 05:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	<small> I have notified the editor in question. But, um, are you sure this is the right one? ] 05:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Yes. I had notified him. Are you sure you notified the right person?--] (]) 05:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC) </small>
	::<small> I clicked on the link you provided and got some user from 2005. I am awfully confused. ] 05:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC) </small>
	:::<small> All sorted out. Carry on. ] 05:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC) </small>
	:(EC) I see a somewhat heated discussion, but that does tend to happen with subjects such as this. You may wish to seek ]. (And I feel compelled to add that, for the record, the Holocaust claimed many victims other than Jews; although many of the victims were Jewish, it was not exclusively Jews who were persecuted.) ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 05:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::I am not seeking content mediation. I want him to cease his behavour. The issue is not as to if they are Jews or Gentiles, but his accusations of trolling, assumption of bad faith, personal attacks, and incivility.--] (]) 05:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Slrubenstein isn't an administrator as far as I can tell, but his comment does seem to assume bad faith--] (]) 05:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	: No admin action needed. Strong rhetoric when discussing a strong topic—carry on smartly. --] (]) 05:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::With all due respect, I am not in your army. This needs to be addressed. It oes not have to be by you. You are dismissed.] (]) 05:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	Plaxico! ] (]) 05:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	<s>{{tl|discussion bottom}}</s>
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=1&username=Slrubenstein
	=== Die4Dixie blocked ===
	:After reading this, I've come to the conclusion that this was a premature close. Slrubenstein IS an administrator, and his actions in this case were inappropriate. WQA is useless, I know from experience. I think this would be solved if Slrubenstein was given a friendly reminder about civility from an administrator; then Die4Dixie would no longer have any reason to complain. --] (]) 05:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	{{ec}} I am blocking the original poster {{userlinks|Die4Dixie}} for ] for the following reasons:
	# edit, which appears to be designed to get a rise out of others.
	# Filing a frivolous complaint against a content opponent (this thread).
	# Including personal attacks in the complaint ("an admin with a dubious history").
	# Block log shows multiple prior blocks including one about 64 days ago for ] that was lifted early in good faith, and one 14 days later for ]. You've been put on notice about how to behave at Misplaced Pages, but the clues aren't getting through.
	# You're continuing to battle on this thread even after told you have no case.
	Take a week off, and when you come back keep in mind that ]. If that principle doesn't agree with your objectives, then you'll have to find another pastime. ] <sup>]</sup> 05:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:For the record, when I look at the rights of ] it shows him as having +sysop. Other than that I agree with the closing and blocking Admins. ] (]) 05:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Actually I'd like to +1 the call for a civility reminder to Slrubentein. I'm not going to argue OP's block, as that is an entirely seperate matter, but my impression of Slrubenstein from my dealings with him have left much to be desired. I found him to be hotheaded and emotional, and quick to use his tools without bothering to gain a full understanding of the situation. Perhaps a friendly reminder by an established editor would encourage more appropriate behaviour. ] (]) 06:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:FYI: the blocked user has, on his talk page, requested a block template with appeal form so he can appeal the block. <small>— ] (]/]) 06:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)</small>
	::All the while suggesting that he was blocked as part of some jewish conspiracy. Yeesh. ] (]) 06:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	* Die4Dixie has shown their agenda with the following edit . Is there another admin who could review this matter, please, and determine whether this warrants an increase to indefinite blocking? ] <sup>]</sup> 06:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::The user obviously was angry over the block, and is under the impression that it was due to a perception of anti-semitism from a Jewish editor. --] (]) 06:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::It's an absurd excuse to indef someone over. No, it does not warrant increasing to indef. ] (]) 06:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::I agree 100% with the above user. --] (]) 06:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::He has resorted to a base anti-semitic slur and it warrants an indef. ] (]) 06:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	Indeffed. I don't normally block for "venting", but he needed to be shown the door months ago. ] (]) 06:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:I don't see it as venting really... If I were reprimanded by two admins whose names sounded to be of a similar ethnicity, especially when the topic of dispute was ethnic-related, I might suspect impropriety as well. And what did he do "months ago"? ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 06:36, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::Was there discussion that future "venting" would result in an indefinite block? --] (]) 06:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::What? ] (]) 06:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::I think William meant "Was the user ''warned'' that further 'venting' would result in an increased block duration?" ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 06:41, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::Also like to hear an answer to my concerns further above, kindly. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 06:42, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::Please check the user's block log and contribution history. Take in a broader view of what he's been doing around Misplaced Pages. ] <sup>]</sup> 06:45, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Could you provide diffs or links to previous discussions about the user's behavior? It would be easier for you to find such things if you know of them (or Protonk who seems to have had previous experience with this user) than for me to go searching blindly through the contribs listing. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 06:48, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::::I mean, don't take this the wrong way, but permission granted not to leap to the users defense if you don't know any of the history. ] (]) 06:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::"I know the reason; and that's all you need to know." --Well how much easier our lives could be made if that were a valid response. You've blocked someone indefinitely and this is ANI, so I'm asking for your reason. I find that a somewhat acceptable request. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 06:57, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::::::It's totally reasonable for you to ask. My point was that if you are going to ask for diffs and insinuate I have some personal history then it behooves you to acquaint yourself with <s>the arbcom case he has been involved in</s>, his block log, and the numerous AN/I threads about or instigated by him. ] (]) 07:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::I wasn't insinuating anything beyond the fact that you might be the best person to ask for links, since you mentioned that the user should have been indeffed long ago. I assumed you had some reason to say that. Thanks for eventually giving me at least some clues to go on now, as difficult as it has been to pry actual information out of you. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 07:09, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::::::My mistake on the RFAR. I'm not sure what I was thinking of, probably ]. ] (]) 03:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Strong support, no disrespect to those above but you cannot make accusations based on editors perceived (or real) ethnicity, no way, no how. Sometimes it's ambiguous, here it isn't. Consider an unblock if he sincerely apologizes. ] (]) 06:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::No, he wasn't. He's been expected to behave in a collegial manner since he got here. instead he has spent his entire time here angling to construe conflicts as grand conspiracies. At some point you reach a level of disruption and malfeasance where it isn't worth the effort to put up with you. he has been there and beyond for some time. ] (]) 06:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::I don't object on that basis at all, but there's no doubting here that this could have handled a lot better than it has (or in fact, should've) been. ] (]) 06:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*In case anybody thinks I might be biased in favor of Slrubenstein, please review ]. ] <sup>]</sup> 06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	**I didn't suggest that -- but rather than being offered the link you just provided us, the user who was so concerned was blocked indefinitely for possibly making the insinuation. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 06:44, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	**That would've been a more ideal response rather than adding more drama to an already poorly handled situation. ] (]) 06:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	***Give me a break. He asked that only gentiles review his unblock request. Completely inappropriate and I fully support this block. ] 06:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Let's get back to the initial block. D4D came here to ask that Slrubenstein be cautioned for using the term "trolling". William S. Saturn, for one, agreed that this is in order. Jehochman then blocked D4D for bringing a frivolous case, and for persisting in it? I'm a bit taken aback here. Not happy about the slur, of course, but first things first.--] (]) 06:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::^Agreed. The user in question is certainly not my favorite person, but the sequence of events that led to the indef is out of whack. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 06:55, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::{{ec}} How thoroughly have you reviewed the contribution history and block log of Die4Dixie? He's been blocked twice since the end of September for disruptive editing. He was posting flamebait at ]. When an editor predictably responded, he ran here to file a complaint against the editor. That's cynical, battlefield behavior. We do not need such editors at Misplaced Pages. ] <sup>]</sup> 06:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::What you call "flamebait" I rather see as evidence that the user is either dumb or inexperienced with regard to Holocaust information. Perhaps AGF? Unless there's more in his contribution history to support the accusation of deliberate trolling, which so far hasn't been forthcoming... ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 07:00, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::::See now come ON. ] (]) 07:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::That's... a really great point. Way to be constructive. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 07:03, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::::::I'm not going to get lectured by someone who sees "''This doesn't seem to be an image of Jews, as they are not circumcised.Perhaps, unless we want to expand the Holocaust to include non Jews, we should just stick to pictures of Jews for this article''" on Talk:Holocaust and insists that he's not trolling but instead he's just conveniently ignorant of the holocaust. that doesn't pass the laugh test, sorry. ] (]) 07:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::I'm not insisting he's ignorant. I'm just suggesting it as a possibility. This is how AGF works; we try to assume the best scenario rather than the worst. Sorry for my errm lecturing. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 07:11, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::::::::And my response is that such a suggestion ''doesn't even pass the laugh test''. AGF is not (quoting spartaz paraphrasing Posner) a suicide pact. Asserting that his comment was made out of some innocence of the context requires a heroic assumption of good faith which would at best be extended to an editor who didn't have a history of trolling or who didn't respond to his block by suggesting that the jewishness of the admin made it illegitimate or that the two jewish admins conspired, devised if you will, to block him. No. Sorry. I'm not buying it. ] (]) 07:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::I ''might'' be inclined to consider your "laugh test" assessment, if the comment could be considered offensive. As I said below, I don't quite see how it could be considered that. In order for trolling to be evident, the user would have had to say something offensive, in order to incite an argument. I'm not sure what was so offensive about the statement to begin with, that would make us question the motive behind it. Stupidity alone doesn't seem a likely candidate for bad-faith. See me comment further down, that starts with "(edit conflict)Another problem I have..." ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 07:57, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	*Oh and my mother isn't ]. ] (]) 06:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''': Administrators should not be so quick to block due to their perceptions of bigotry in an individual. In matters such as this, there should be a community consensus. --] (]) 07:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*For reference, I am a "gentile" (I presume an atheist counts?), and I'm fully in support of the block. Bigotry is not acceptable here, whoever it may be directed against. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 07:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::As far as I can see, D4D was initially blocked for bringing this matter to AN/I, persisting in it, and having a block history. That is what Jehochman says. I do not see that these are blockable offenses.--] (]) 07:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::{{conflict}}That's my interpretation as well. His comments may be inappropriate, but I do not see them as blatantly racist. Saying that one jewish editor was leaping to another jewish editor's aid is not helpful, but its not racist. Similarly, asking to have the case reviewed by a non-jewish admin, if one honestly believed that you were being discriminated against because you weren't Jewish, isn't racist either. It might even be downright appropriate. His other behaviour was not at issue here, and seems to have played an inappropriate role in the chronology of the indef block.
	::::Look, the guy doesn't appear to be the sharpest crayon in the box, and maybe wikipedia is better off without him. i'm simply concerned about the conduct of the blocking admin(s). ] (]) 07:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::] is policy and ] is a guideline. He's broken both of them, as I've explained above, and then iced the cake with some ]. The prior block history means he doesn't need warnings or extra chances; he's used them up already. ] <sup>]</sup> 07:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*{{ec}}Another problem I have with this is that the comment itself doesn't actually seem likely to offend anyone. It just doesn't make sense to anyone who knows anything about the Holocaust. He suggested sticking to pictures of Jews unless the Holocaust involved other races. Is that offensive? I mean I know it's ''stupid'', but offensive? Is it really? Could someone explain to me why it would be? ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 07:19, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::I concur. It's dumb and tinhatty, but I can't see that being offensive, unless those offended were a little too eager to read offense into things. ] (]) 07:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::D4D stated baldly that Jehochman made a block not on the merits of the situation, but rather because he's a jew acting in defence of another jew. I despair for those who cannot see what is so utterly offensive in that. It's not "tinhatty". It's not "stupid". It's totally offensive and completely unacceptable. When viewed in the context of D4D's editing history it demonstrates that he should never be unblocked. ] (]) 07:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::See Throwaway's comment in response to Wehwalt above. The mere suggestion that one admin might be acting in defense of another admin for ethnic reasons isn't worthy of an indefinite block, though it isn't a smart thing to say either. We should also be also more inclined to allow leeway when it comes to someone's response to the frustration of a block. Also none of this changes the fact that the comment that sparked all of this wasn't actually offensive, ''and'' the initial block came simply because the user brought a complaint to ANI -- and one that had nothing to do with ethnicity. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 07:51, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::That's fair. And I'll note that accusations of ethnic conspiracies aren't uncommon (they are par for the course on most of the nationalist conflicts and the same goes for political accusations w/ american left/right politics disputes). But I'm not blocking him for the comment alone. I'm blocking him because I feel he has worn out his welcome. ] (]) 08:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::I can't seem to find ], Protonk. Can you help?--] (]) 08:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	Jehochman blocked today (2 December 2009) for 5 reasons. Let's look at each of them:
	# comment which was made on 30 November 2009. Was it really offensive? Foolish yes, but offensive? Regardless, do we usually block so much later for such a comment?
	# "frivolous complaint against content opponent". Do we usually block for that reason, or doesn't that happen often enough that it does not warrant a block?
	# "personal attacks in complaint ("an admin with a dubious history")" If an editor makes an allegation, particularly against an admin, do we usually block them or ask them to substantiate?
	# Block log with blocks for point and disruptive editing...a fancy way of saying blocking policy allows a block if the conduct continues. And...where was the discussion for that? Was there even an RfC/U that some frequently encourage users to use in lieu of ANI and binding measures?
	# "continuing to battle on this thread even after told no case". One user felt there was a need to remind/warn Slrubenstein, while another felt otherwise. Battling aside, how is it in any way reasonable to expect a filing party to agree with a user who disagrees with him, particularly when someone else felt some justification in the filing party's concern? Meanwhile, Jayron32 closed this making some correct statements (about using dispute resolution) and incorrect statements (those regarding Slrubenstein's sysop rights).
	Does this blocking rationale stand up to scrutiny? If it actually does, great. Personally, I'm inclined to think that more discussion ''prior to admin actions'' may have resulted in this being handled much more appropriately (and without the escalating drama). There may have been other reasons that resulted in the block, even an indef one that I'd have fully supported. However, as those reasons were material to this block, those reasons should've been stated in the rationale to begin with (if they existed at the time of blocking in the mind of the blocking admin). Personal assumptions do not override discussion. ] (]) 07:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::I don't want to get too deep into it, since Jehochman and I are both ArbCom candidates, but there needs to be more emphasis on discussion rather than unilateral actions, and I wish Jehochman had waited. It is very possible that Misplaced Pages would be better off without D4D, I couldn't say. But "better off blocked" is not a reason to block. I suggest that D4D be unblocked, with a caution as to his language. I also suggest that Slrubenstein be cautioned that "trolling" is a word likely to be provocative.--] (]) 08:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Please comment on the following two edits. Are they helpful or unhelpful, given the backdrop of an editor who's been blocked repeatedly and recently for disruptive editing? The way this case has been handled is strictly routine. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::* .
	::::*]
	:::*
	:::Thank you. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::I agree that using the word "trolling" is not wise. It tends to make a situation worse rather than better. However, this error is quite mild compared to the provocations by Die4Dixie. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::And yet you blocked him for bringing the case here and persisting in it!--] (]) 08:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Correct. For the reasons stated above. Die4Dixie has a contribution history evidencing a particular point of view. His comment appears to have been flamebait. He ] and brought it here for frying. No, we don't allow that sort of game on Misplaced Pages, especially not by editors who already been warned and blocked at least twice for disruptive editing in the recent past. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Unless the original comment can be shown to have been somehow offensive, which no one's explained yet, there's no reason to think he was baiting. The comment was just ''stupid'' -- not offensive. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 08:23, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::{{ec}}Both of those comments have been addressed above. The "circumcised" comment, again, was stupid but not offensive, nor worthy of a block. And again, merely suggesting, in the frustrated aftermath of a block, that one admin was acting in defense of another admin for ethnic reasons, is also not worthy of a block, let alone an indef -- though it may still have been ill-advised. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 08:16, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::: @Jehochman; decidedly unhelpful. I've seen D4D before; one of the other incidents, but I don't recall the details and do not believe I was in any way involved or even commented; but it was in this same vein.
	:::: I have a question of my own: Is there anything good coming out of this user? Because if there's not, Jehochman and Protonk have this done right. Cheers, <span style="text-shadow: 0.15em 0.15em 0.2em rgba(0,0,0,0.4);">]</span> 08:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I see plenty of constructive edits in his history; though even barring that, the "net positive/net negative" argument has never held much water when it comes to users. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 08:27, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	{{od}} Was the following edit constructive?
	* ''This users is pleased with the changes in the status of ]. One down and several left<s>ists</s> to go!''
	I am no fan of communists, but grave dancing and using Misplaced Pages as a battleground is unacceptable. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Not helpful, but also not worthy of blocking indefinitely (though maybe blocking temporarily following a warning, which I think is what happened). That wasn't a personal attack against another editor; just a case of bad taste, saying things out loud that most of us confine to our heads instead. There was a user a while ago who posted a box on his userpage that suggested all Americans should die. It sparked a lengthy controversy on whether or not the user should be forced to remove the box, but no mention of a block. There are plenty of uncouth editors that aren't indefinitely blocked for being so. It might be better to reconsider the actions that led to the block in this case rather than searching for reasons to rationalize it. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 08:45, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	: Thank you, Jonathan, *that* was the incident I recall this user from. We can haz rezolved boxen soon? Cheerz, <span style="text-shadow: 0.15em 0.15em 0.2em rgba(0,0,0,0.4);">]</span> 08:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:: You seem to be suggesting blocking a user indefinitely for something they did two months ago, were already blocked temporarily for, and haven't repeated since. Of course I have to disagree with that. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 08:53, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	*Good block and I support the indef as well. Although I'm sure it'll be lifted in a week. That's all indeffed seems to mean most of the time. ] (]) 08:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Looking at the dialogue on ], D4D's responses to Slrubenstein were completely inappropriate. Here is the interchange about the non-free image ] just so that editors can get a little sense of perspective. D4D was quite clearly trying to ] Slrubenstein. Whatever William S.Saturn may say in D4D's defense, D4D's "objective editing behaviour" is reminiscent of the kind of discussions that got {{User|Fourdee}} permabanned by Jimbo (he suggested that Jewish historians were incapable of evaluating the holocaust).
	{{quote box|
	*This doesn't seem to be an image of Jews, as they are not circumcised.Perhaps, unless we want to expand the Holocaust to include non Jews, we should just stick to pictures of Jews for this article? Die4Dixie (talk) 17:36, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	*Excuse me, but what is the point of your comment, unless you are trolling? (1) which people are not circumcized? (2) this article does as you must know include the suffering of non-Jews. Please explain. Slrubenstein Talk 19:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
	*Excuse me, but your comments were not civil, were the opposite of WP:AGF, and were definately uncalled for and not appreciated. If you examine the genitalia carefully, it will be self evident the corpse to which I refer. The introduction makes reference to the exclusivity in certain circles to the term. If you aren´t interested in my input, it is a big project and plenty of communist propoganda for me to rectify elsewhere. I really don´t have much more time for attitude and maudlin sensibilities.--Die4Dixie (talk) 04:21, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Excuse me, your saying that victims of the Holocaust are not Jewish, and making a tendentious comment about circumcision, are not civil, and are the opposite of good faith. I am sorry you cannot appreciate it. Obviously you are not going to answer my question, about which individuals specifically are not circumcised, because you cannot. Proof enough of your bad faith. Slrubenstein Talk 17:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Excuse me. The dark corpse in the bottom half of the picture. Follow the white hand that is at approximately 6 o´clock along the darker cadaver that points towrds two o´clock. Follow it until you reach the external gentile genitalia. Use the larger picture that you can reach by clicking on the image.--Die4Dixie (talk) 05:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)}}
	::] (]) 08:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:I haven't seen anyone point out that the lead for the article they are discussing excludes nonjews from the victimes of the holocaust, pretty much. Given this, it does seem that Die4Dixie's comments make sense in a race/religious neutral context. He was observing that the photograph doesn't depict what the article is discussing. The admin then informs him that the holocaust includes nonjews (something I thought as well) however this seems to contradict with the main definition of such in the article's lead. I agree the admin should be warned for civility, and I think the ban was excessive. It seems people are reaching to show incitement, where a perfectly rational explanation seems plain. The picture shows something that appears inconsistant with the subject. In any case, the ban now given seems grossly excessive when viewed in light of bans given to vandals and obviously bad faith editors who act with plain malice, and I question seriously whether any disciplinary action was appropriate at all.--] (]) 12:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::So, a user ''known'' for being inflammatory makes ] of a small portion of a photo and posts a comment of poor nature... and then defends it to the point of bringing it to ANI... and we're still debating this? It was a masterful troll that has ANI in a tizzy and I see no reason to unblock. &mdash; <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Well I haven't seen how the prior comments establish these as violating any of the rules. Certainly he could have malicious intent and he could be breaking the rules, but I don't think that's been demonstrated. My understanding is that anyone's allowed to question the content. Maybe he's a holocaust denier (which I would hope isn't against the rules here, at least not for reasons of offending people) or something, but that's not obvious from the post. I fail to see how making a comment, even if irrelevant as you contend, questioning a photo is deserving of this type of ban.--] (]) 17:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	===Looking forward===
	*I've advised Die4Dixie that they need to ponder what's happened here. After a week if they post a convincing unblock request, they might get another chance. They need to demonstrate an understanding of what Misplaced Pages is for, and that they recognize what mistakes they made. Those apologizing for Die4Dixie are doing the user no favors. Die4Dixie needs to understand the problems and correct them. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:*You're skipping some steps here. Per the discussion above, it doesn't seem all that clear what the user did "wrong", or at least what they did that was worthy of a block. So far, he said something stupid at ], which it has been suggested was a baiting attempt, though no one has been able to explain how it could be seen as such. He then responded to one admin defending another by suggesting they were doing so due to common ethnicity, which while an ill-advised thing to say, also isn't worthy of a block. Perhaps you could respond to the challenges in the above discussion rather than skipping to your own conclusion? ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 08:59, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::Die4Dixie explicitly stated that an image by the official Jewish memorial ] on the victims of the Holocaust ''does not represent Jewish people''. Basically, he's restating arguments on ] on ]. The sole aim of that comment is to inflame, as he well knows how sensitive the issue is. Now tell me, how is that not baiting? Then, when he's blocked, he automatically assumes the blocking administrator is Jewish without any prior evidence. The block is deserved. &mdash;] 09:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::It was blatant baiting. If it wasn't for the user's history (Allende was "congressionally appointed" not "democratically elected", Pinochet wasn't a fascist, anti-semitism includes hate against Arabs, ...) I would be prepared to assume good faith: that it was ''unintentional'' blatant baiting. But not in the case of what seems to be a highly intelligent extremely right-wing user.
	:::If you, Equazcion, don't see what's wrong about telling editors at ] (who obviously include relatives of those who survived or died in the Holocaust) to magnify the photo of a stack of dead bodies and examine their penises to see if they are circumcised (as if that was even relevant – people were killed for their descent, not their religion), then I don't know how to help you. The overall attitude shown by Die4Dixie in that thread was also clearly that of a Holocaust denier. I am surprised that the reactions were so relatively cool. ] ] 09:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::*@Dark: I now see where you're coming from. However it seems like a jump contrary to AGF to assume holocaust denial based on the statement. It could be as you claim (and thank you for being the first to finally step forward and explain this), but still, it could as easily be ignorance. Unless there's prior evidence of an antisemitic editing slant, I don't feel this warrants assuming the worst, yet.
	::::*@Hans: I indeed ''dont'' see what's wrong with telling editors at ] to magnify a photo of dead bodies in order to investigate a claim of inaccuracy. If the editors participating at ] are emotinally involved to the point that they can't handle objective scrutiny of the subject without becoming offended, they might want to consider editing elsewhere -- though I doubt that's actually the case, and rather seems a stretch. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 09:45, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::::] should reacquaint himself a.s.a.p. with the wikipedia guideline ]. In this case, rather than making comments on and analysis of an image like this (and continuing for example with the completely incorrect assumption that only circumcised people could be classified as Jews by the Third Reich), the only relevant thing here is to look at the sourcing for the image on the original site. That is how wikipedia is edited. Considering the source (]), I don't quite understand what could have prompted Equaczion to write justifying such disruptive editing behaviour. ] (]) 11:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::OR is a content guideline and has nothing to do with the theories wikipedians may construct about motivation or anything else. What should be said is that the more convoluted and bizarre the defense of trolling on Talk:Holocaust gets, the less likely outside observers are to believe it. ] (]) 11:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::That had ''nothing'' to do with any sort of objective scrutiny. Remember what the claim was: ''One'' of the dead men on the photo wasn't circumcised. So what? I am not aware that the Nazis routinely circumcised men before (or after) killing them as Jews. Therefore this doesn't even prove that this one man wasn't killed for being Jewish (whether he considered himself that or not). Let alone all the others. And it's not even relevant unless you argue from a Holocaust denial POV.
	::::::This was clearly meant to function telling someone that they would make a nice lampshade – only calculated to stay ''just'' below the threshold where it becomes actionable. Well, it was a miscalculation. ] ] 09:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::It's not even relevant from a Holocaust denial POV. (correction -- it could be, but...) The guy could just be a moron who doesn't know anything about the Holocaust, which makes this case less "clear". If there were a demonstrated history of antisemitic editing I'd be more inclined to waive AGF, but I see no reason to do that yet. Why are we assuming the worst of this thus-far isolated incident? ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 10:07, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::::::"Unless there's prior evidence of an antisemitic editing slant, I don't feel this warrants assuming the worst, yet." Apart from the username, an editor whose fourth edit is to defend the Stormfront website ceratinly raises red flags wrt an "antisemitic slant". Changing "'''Blood libels''' are false accusations that ]s use human blood in certain aspects of their religious rituals." to "'''Blood libels''' are false{{Fact|date=Nov 2007}} accusations that ]s use human blood in certain aspects of their religious rituals." may be an indication as well. ] (]) 10:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Suppose we twist AGF to assume "This doesn't seem to be an image of Jews, as they are not circumcised" in regard to ] was not either trolling or denialism. Fine, but then Die4Dixie files a pointless complaint here; that is definitely outside AGF and the five reasons explained ] show that the initial one-week block was reasonable. The subsequent discussion at ] shows that future contributions from this user are not going to help the encyclopedia. ] (]) 10:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	* OVer a year back, William S. Saturn (under his now-blocked sock name ] ), was here defending another Southern editor ] who was blocked for very much similar editing to Die4Dixie. . Just thought I'd mention it, like. <b>]</b> 10:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	**I see editors above who have vehemently prosecuted suspected anti-semitic editors before too. If there's a conclusion to be drawn from the former, perhaps there is one to be drawn from the latter as well.
	**In response to Mathsci further up, violation of OR or the like is not in dispute. You don't get blocked for discussing a perceived problem with an article that might stem from a purely OR concern. This is about an "intentional baiting".
	**Regarding the blood libel, speaking from a purely objective standpoint, the blanket statement that blood libel claims are "false" seems rather unprovable, and again this is from a purely objective standpoint, the word "false" should probably be removed. It's enough to say that it's an "accusation" without making baseless claims about how true they are. Changing the statement as D4D did again ''might'' be evidence of something larger, but it also might not, as I can see a legitimate reason for it. If there were a statement in an article that no cow ever stepped on a land mine, that would similarly be rather unprovable and I don't think anyone would be complaining if it were altered or marked with CN. That said I can see the tendency to suspect something else by connecting that edit with this incident, but still, there's enough doubt to warrant AGF for now.
	**In response to Johnuniq, filing a complaint that others see as being pointless is not generally something people get blocked for, and some editors have expressed the opinion that it was warranted. As for statements following the block, I feel like they're being used as an excuse in the case, when in most other cases we don't normally extend blocks based on users' reactions; rather we usually grant leeway for the understandable frustration users feel when blocked. I'm also not even of the opinion that the user's follow-up statements were all that terrible. Suspecting impropriety based on common ethnicity sounds bad, but there aren't really any grounds to say it couldn't possibly be a valid concern -- not that I'm saying it was; just that it's not an entirely unthinkable thing to worry about when an administrative action has been taken against you. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 11:56, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:Equazcion, it's extremely hard to see this as anything other than baiting and deliberate disruption. I tried to find the original source for the image with its accompanying information. However, there are too many images of this kind to sort through in the photographic archives at ]. ] (]) 12:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Equazcion, consider D4D's request - that a bunch of amateur writers, and that's really what we are, armchair quarterback 65 years of historians, archivists, and researchers; that we take a digitized image thoroughly out of the context of all that documentation and scholarship; that we spend a great deal of time staring at a dead man's limp dick, and make a determination of our own over that of the Reliable Sources to agree withD4D that at least one cock in the pile is NOT circumcised; and that we use that conclusion, if we can ignore WP:RS, and WP:OR, and WP:SYNTH, to determine that because one prick might not be clipped, then ALL Those bodies are non-Jews, and therefore, by extension, the image should be removed. If we indulged him on all this, and tried to think as he does, we would them be asked, no doubt, to prove the bodies are from the WW2 era at all. One - defending the presence of a strongly emotional image on the page is quite different than insisting others stare at it ad nauseum to try to 'debunk' it, Two - this editor has a history, amply demonstrated above, of looking to provoke others, and by your own admission, it's stupid set of things to say. Stupid comments plus a history of calculated 'stupid things' is trolling. Your defense seems to rely, like D4D's comment, on examining one dick out of context to all the things around it. Sure, one comment MAY just be stupid, like one dick MAY be uncircumcised, but in context, one comment may just be the latest bit of trolling, like one dick, looked at for even a moment, shows that it's clearly circumcised. Further, consider it this way. EVEN if that first block, for saying things designed to be BAIT for the Jewish editors, was questionable, the fact that the blocked editor's reply is to immediately imply that Jews all act to protect each other (the popular Sekrit Joozish Conshpeerasy) demonstrates that in this case, scratch the surface of a 'stupid edit', find the race-baiting editor beneath it. It's been said here that D4D is good at making edits that stay just shy of the threshold of a block. Even if true, it appears he miscalculated, as was also said above, and then showed his hand ... flat, face down, at the end of an extended upward arm. And he got blocked for it. Good block -Encouraging vilations of RS, OR, SYNTH through BAITing others? please. ] (]) 12:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Equazon - have you read the comments D4D made? It's possible to ask questions about an image that includes (possibly) an uncircumcised male on the talk page of a holocaust article without doing so in a manner that you *know* is going to annoy the fuck out of many people. D4D's ignorance is not the problem. D4D's possible OR is not the problem. D4D's provocative manner in asking the questions is. That, combined with a the username, and with other edits, shows that the editor is incapable of editing for the enemy, will push a certain pov, and will do so provocatively. The username combined with some of the edits is enough for an indef block. He was allowed to keep the username so long as he did not engage in this type of editing. He failed that test, and failed it hard. ] (]) 13:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::@Thuranx: If the history of trolling is as unquestionable as you imply, then maybe you're right; I just haven't seen such a history demonstrated here. Otherwise, as you say, the comment could just have been stupid. Also, the block wasn't actually for the supposed baiting, but for bringing a so-called frivolous complaint to ANI -- one which, as was also said above by multiple editors, may have had some basis. Disregarding a supposed history of trolling that, if it exists, Slrubenstien probably wasn't aware of or acting on, personally I think Slrubenstein's reaction was not ideal; though still not worthy of an ANI report, but also not entirely un-worthy of some complaint by an editor who might not have known better the threshold for which concerns belong at ANI -- at least not to the point of blocking him for making it.
	::::@NotAnIP: He might not have *known* it was going to annoy the fuck out of people. As I said, it could simply have been a stupid, ill-thought-out remark (or the user could be a dimwit to begin with). You're assuming he knew that the statement would be taken as provocative, but I'm not. As for the username, I'm not entirely sure why that should automatically be counted as evidence of antisemitism, if that's what's being implied. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 13:09, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::Have you read his comments at the talk page? They're *clearly*, and I cannot understand how anyone can think otherwise, baiting. There are ways to ask questions about what appears to be an uncircumcised male in a picture of what's supposed to be all Jewish people in an article about the Holocaust (when you're confused about the use of Holocaust to refer to the death of Jews but not homosexuals or Gypsies) - but D4D's questions were absolutely not the way to do it. So, so far I'm accusing D4D of blatant trolling. If you were to say that some editors are being too quick to accuse D4D of anti-semitism; well, I might agree, but he's clearly using that as a button to push to annoy people. And about the username: Die4Dixie was reported at UAA. People were worried that a username like that would be pushing a racist POV. Others asked for AGF. D4D has shown that AGF was optimistic. ] (]) 18:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::In my unsolicited opinion, this whole thing is pretty absurd. The comment on his user page is not per se antisemetic, and I see no reason to stretch to reach that result. It was insensitive, but so what? He is asking for someone that doesn't have an ethnic/religious association with the claimed offensive actions to decide on the disciplinary action. He didn't claim a conspiracy or any of the other nonsense, and certainly didn't slur folks. Good lord. Maybe he's a raging bigot, but it ain't evidenct from this stuff. Finally, the article lead for the holocaust pretty much excludes nonjews from the definition thereof, and the talk page observation was therefore quite relevant: the pic was unrelated (allegedly) to the subject. The admin then claims, contrary to the lead, that the holocaust includes nonjews (something I thought as well) with no explanation for how he squares that with the article's lead's proclaimed scope. Seems to me that people are looking at insensitive comments and straining to see malice where it isn't plain on its face. I hate to be one of those people (seriously, I really do) but this looks like political correctness gone wild (and usually I'm criticising those who make such allegations, yeesh).--] (]) 12:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Please go read the lede of that article, all the other groups are prominently mentioned in the second paragraph of the lede. Your comment is as disingenuous as his. ] (]) 13:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::This comment again assumes bad faith. Δζ simply made a mistake, or at least that's what you should be ]; yet you're calling him disingenuous. Furthermore this may have been the same mistake D4D made. You could assume they're ''both'' being disingenuous... we could assume intentional misdeeds as opposed to mistakes across the board in all cases... but that's not our policy. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 13:20, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::I understand the second paragraph mentions other groups, but the first one seems to advance the "jews only" view as the more prominent and general use of the term. In any case, how am I disingenuous? I can only interpret that one way, which is a pretty ridiculous assumption on your part. Should I trot out my jew street cred? Mention all the unverifiable friends/survivors I know? Not everyone who has a different opinion or makes an understandable mistake (as Equazcion observes) is doing so out of malice. I feel like I'm being baited into condemning views nobody has any business assuming of me in the first place. Chill out.--] (]) 13:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::(ec) Equazcion, are you reading the diffs carefully? D4D requested a citation two years ago for the edit: "'''Blood libels''' are false{{Fact|date=Nov 2007}} accusations that ]s use human blood in certain aspects of their religious rituals," which means he thinks Jews ''might'' use human blood. Now he's making comments about Holocaust victims not being circumcised (and therefore what?), and complaining because he is blocked by an admin who he thinks is Jewish. I'm not seeing a reasonable doubt here. <font color="blue">]</font> 13:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Already responded to this. See my response to Black Kite above for my thoughts on that edit. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 13:38, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	*'''Endorse block'''. The history of events that led to the block is not a monument of due process, but the end result appears okay to me given D4D's long term edit history; cleary he isn't here to improve Misplaced Pages. ] ] 13:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Endorse '''a''' block, but the trigger finger may have gone a bit too quickly towards an indef. Let the dust settle a bit and see where this user's head is at in a week or two, where an unblock request can be more thoughtfully considered and less emotionally reacted to. ] (]) 13:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*I agree with the block. Whether this user is simply ignorant about the Holocaust or consciously trolling, he's not helping to improve Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 14:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:BTW, I'm curious, it seems some supported these actions because of antisemitism (or maybe they were just outraged by it). Is this against the rules per se, or only trolling? I'm just curious if viewpoints of certain types are not allowed to be had by editors. I'm not asking if wikipedia may be used as a platform for delivering those viewpoints or debating them, but whether if viewpoints are discovered of an editor, do they ever run afoul of policy by that fact alone, or by them having had them? From my understanding, antisemitism alone doesn't violate any existing policy, though it may be relevant to interpreting comments like those at issue here.--] (]) 15:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::As far as I know you are allowed to support "Nuking the gay whales for Jesus" as long as you do not edit that POV into articles or intentionally antagonize other editors with it. ] |] 21:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*I support the indef block. Anyone who posts such things does not belong on this project. ] (]) 15:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	===Die4Dixie Unblocked, Community Ban Proposed===
	{{discussion top|1=After roughly a day of discussion, there is broad consensus for the proposed community ban of {{userlinks|Die4Dixie}} for repeatedly and persistenly violating ], notably by conduct widely perceived as racist and/or trolling. Accordingly, '''Die4Dixie is community-banned,''' and I am blocking his account. Wehwalt is reminded not to perform unblocks without discussion except in the "cases of unambiguous error" mentioned in ]. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 13:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC)}}
	::I've unblocked, based on the discussion. We must only block when an editor is in clear violation. Jehochman's block, never mind the ''post hoc'' statements, was for bringing this matter here, persisting in it, and having a previous block log. The upgrade for indefinite, for asking a non-Jewish admin to look at it, was inappropriate. Incidentally, I am Jewish, and if that causes Die4Dixie to roll in anguish at having his editing privileges restored by such, good. I will leave an appropriate caution on the talk pages of both Die4Dixie and Slrubenstein.--] (]) 15:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::: Wow, Wehwalt. There is no consensus to unblock. ] <sup>]</sup> 15:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::There was no consensus to undo the block, Wehwalt; quite the reverse. <font color="blue">]</font> 15:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	Wehwalt has unilaterally unblocked Die4Dixie. I request a community sanction:
	* Die4Dixie is community banned.
	Regrettably this is necessary. We cannot have admins supplanting consensus with their own peculiar views. ] <sup>]</sup> 15:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Huh? If anything, what we cannot have is admins who provide clumsy rationales for their actions and expect them to stick. An unblock request was posted; any admin reviewing it gets to decide, unless it was a formal community sanction (which this was not). There's no point in complaining on that point. However, you are welcome to start a formal discussion for community sanction/ban at the appropriate venue (particularly in an appropriately named section). Though, I thought you were complaining last time a community sanction discussion happened at ANI.... ] (]) 15:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Support community ban. ] (]) 15:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Support community ban per repeated trolling. ] (]) 15:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Support community ban per my explanations above. ] ] 15:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	* <s>Procedural oppose. I'm sorry, but inflating this incident as if it rises to that level is not good enough . If there is another more compelling reason for this proposal, which is what the above supports seem to allude to, no RfC/U or evidence trail has been presented. If this user should be community banned, it should not be difficult to present the trail of misconduct to justify the ban. I'll make a view on the merits of this upon that happening. ] (]) 15:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)</s> A better evidence trail exists now so I cannot oppose on these grounds, if any. The more general point I've raised here (but more explicitly in the a later subsection) really does need to be addressed by the community though. ] (]) 08:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Support lengthening the block for Dixie's inappropriate comments that violated ]. Dixie's comments assumed (possible) bias on the part of a (possibly) Jewish administrator, without substantial evidence--and Wikipedians should be judged based on decisions, not ethnicity. Oppose making the block indefinite. The decision to up the block to indefinite seemed too abrupt, and the difference between a week-long block and an indefinite block is too great. --]] 15:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support block/ban, bad unblock'''. Whether D4D is an antisemitic asshole or just a moron (as per ]'s suggestion, although I'd like to add that these are in not way disjoint categories), he or she is unlikely to help building an encyclopedia. See also and the rest of his history. --] (]) 16:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*I obviously oppose a ban. I've been looking through this user's contrib list, and found a remarkable lack of edits to Judaism-related articles for an editor who's being accused of antisemitism. Aside from the blood libel edits nearly 2 years ago (which I've brought evidence to support their being legitimate), and some subsequent edits to the same article, there isn't much else to support this claim. This editor's supposed long history of trolling is also rather unsupported. People seem to be flying off the handle when it comes to edits that might be construed as antisemitic, when if the same sort of edits occurred regarding other subjects, they'd not be taken this way. And I'm Jewish, in case that should matter, but it really shouldn't. I'm concerned, among other reasons, that being oversensitive about this only trivializes other cases where there may be actual cause for concern. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 16:02, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	*Oppose as well. If you want a ban, take a deep breath, and then go do a RFC/U. At the present time, you have a very result oriented appearance, which isn't want this is all about. Cancel the order to the stick factory, don't put any stress on that dead horse, then go think about it for a bit.--] (]) 16:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	* I think we need to draw a line that attacks based on an editor's perceived race, ethnicity, religion, or sexuality are very seriously forbidden, just like making legal threats. When somebody makes such an attack, they should be blocked indefinitely until they retract the offensive remark. At any reasonable non-profit organization, volunteers and employees are expected to uphold such minimal standards of interpersonal conduct. Misplaced Pages should do the same. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:: I think that is an excellent idea. Let's get that put into policy, and if D4D violates it, we will block him! But he can't be blocked for an unstated idea of yours ...--] (]) 16:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)\
	:::I cannot, in good conscience, support that idea simply because of the enormous subjectivity that would need to be applied to every statement a person made. If I were a member of the ] and you tried to tag that article as pseudo-science, I could call for your indef block for being offensive to me and my views. does that sound even remotely logical? I hope not. ] (]) 19:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Support for community ban; D4D needs to go. I also want to express my ''profound'' disappointment with admins and long-time editors who seem to believe that this kind of nonsense is in any way acceptable. In the words of one of WP's greatest admins: "AGF is not a suicide pact". I wouldn't normally quote Machiavelli either, but in this case it seems that the ends do indeed justify the means; It's more important to quickly and efficiently remove a dedicated troll than it is to follow the exact letter of policy. Kudos to ] for taking proper action. ] <font color ="green">]</font > 16:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::We can add it to written policy right now, if it is not there already. We have traditionally indef blocked accounts that cross that line. I've left a message on your talk page suggesting an alternative resolution for this thread. See what you think. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::I don't have a problem with asking D4D to strike specific statements, and if he refuses to do so, jointly starting an RfC. It may take several days for me to write one up, though, busy busy, Jehochman, I know it is the same with you.--] (]) 16:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::{{ec}}Okay, I ask the community to suspend this proceeding and place an archive box around it. Wehwalt and I will deal with Die4Dixie and make sure things are fixed up, or else we will initiate an RfC that may result in a community ban. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::Jehochman, I really like your idea. These types of comments are already covered on the policy page for ], sort of--"Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views ...Speculating on the real life identity of another editor may constitute outing, which is a serious offense." Perhaps we could make it clearer, in "No personal attacks," that this is a serious offense? --]] 16:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I also really like this idea. It would go a long way in resolving some disputes involving problem-editors a lot more quickly and efficiently. ] (]) 16:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Gladly something useful came of this discussion. Let's go to the policy pages and improve them. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	{{ec}} Frankly I'm against that change as it's meant to apply to situations like this. Equally as frankly, and it seems at the risk of being labeled a bigot myself, were I a gentile, being reprimanded and then blocked by two people in power who were Jewish, for my supposed antisemitic remark, I would probably feel compelled to call attention to that fact as well, un-PC as it would be taken. Also frankly, and here's where it gets real touchy, but I'm going to say it anyway, I'd suggest that Jewish administrators think about recusing themselves in such situations, just as bakers should recuse themselves from situations involving editors insulting the baking industry... and so forth. I'm not sure why there should be a difference in an ethnic situation; and really, the more potential for personal offense exists, the more careful we should be in avoiding the appearance of potential impropriety. Anyway, any policy changes should probably not be discussed here. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 16:40, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:Based on three requests from other people at Misplaced Pages: , I have reopened this thread. Please continue to spend more time on this. Thank you. --]''''']''''' 17:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*I support a community ban as well. This was a really terrible unblock. ] 17:48, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	** Ugh. '''Strong support''', per Durova. ] 05:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:By that logic, Equaczion, us white folks should recuse ourselves on any dispute involving editors who insult a white person. Do you see the massive flaw in your logic here? &mdash; <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::See ], where I've answered that point. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 18:01, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	*'''Support community ban''' Editors examining genitalia to determine race and ethnicity smacks of something that is really hard to AGF. We're better off without that sort of thing. --] <small>(])</small> 17:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Note''' - Jayron reopened this thread mistakenly, in response to concerns regarding his original close located way up this thread. It's already been agreed upon by the blocking admin and the unblocking admin that his matter be handled outside ANI. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 18:04, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:note: I've re-closed this per ]. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 18:08, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::So, because Jehochman and Wehwalt have decided to file an RfC we are no longer able to discuss a community ban? Sorry, but I was not aware that those two represent the community in totality. ] 18:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::They are the blocking admin and the unblocking admin. They agreed to offer the user an ultimatum, and if he doesn't accept, to open an RFC/U where a community ban would be discussed, and you'll be welcome to comment. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 18:20, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::Right. My unblock related to the process that was undertaken, that could have been done better. We are now addressing D4D's actual conduct, giving him a chance to back off and improve things, and if that fails, the community will make a decision on whether he is welcome at Misplaced Pages. I suspect I know how that will end.--] (]) 18:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Sorry for thinking ''community'' bans should be decided based on ''community'' input and not just the whims of the blocking and unblocking admins. ] 18:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Well, gee, go start your own RfC then. But I think when the two admins closest to the picture are waiting for a response from the editor in question, I think people will wait on that. There is no huge hurry, if D4D starts editing again, and doesn't respond to me, or if he responds negatively, we know what to do, and if he doesn't resume editing it is a moot point.--] (]) 18:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::You're so close to the picture you forgot to inform the blocking admin that you reversed his block. Considering Protonk's involvement I think it fair that he be allowed to weigh in here. ] 18:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	I, as an uninvolved editor, am uncollapsing the discussion. I would recommend that future commentors take into account the discussion between Jehochman and Wehwalt (link ?), but it was inappropriate for an editor participating in the discussion (]) to short-circuit and collapse a ban discussion that they opposed. ] (]) 18:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:I wasn't the one who collapsed it originally. I only re-collapsed it following Jayorn's mistaken reopen. See ]. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 18:43, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	* '''Support''' the community ban. D4D is obviously a racist troll and a hypocrite with no good intentions on WP. --] (]) 19:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Support a ban, obviously. ] (]) 19:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Discussion between Jehochman and me can be found .--] (]) 18:45, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Anyone want to re-collapse this mess again, since my doing so is clearly an attempt to short-circuit a ban discussion that I oppose? ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 18:47, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	*'''Support''' a community ban. ] (]) 19:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' <small>] ]</small> 19:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*<s>'''Support'''</s> with comments. Excusing an editor for "venting" is a rather bad proposition in any situation. More so when it carries overtones of bigotry. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 20:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	**Changing to '''strong support''' per this. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 02:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' a community ban for Die4Dixie. Since enough people have commented in this discussion that it can no longer be seen as being between the blocking and unblock admins, their agreement to continue in another forum has no bearing on whether this thread proceeds to a community ban consensus. ]] 20:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::I agree with Nathan. Jehochman and my agreement has been overtaken by events. I will take no position on the community ban. Howver, I would ask that participants check ] and make sure that Die4Dixie is notified and that the process go the required amount of time before an uninvolved admin closes the matter.--] (]) 20:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Per Wehwalt<s>, except my original procedural oppose still stands</s> - no view on merits. ] (]) 20:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)<small>procedural oppose struck.</small>
	*'''Oppose''' community ban, because he helps make articles better (eventually), but support long-term block of 6 months to 1 year for racist remarks. --] (]) 20:45, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' community ban for Die4Dixie. I have long admired this editor's ability to capitalize on disagreements between admins and to thereby emerge unscathed from ''contretemps'' that would have quickly done in lesser rhetoricians. However, his/her entertainment value has been depleted. &mdash; ] ] 21:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' - this has been blown way out of proportion. This is a good example of making a mountain out of a mole hill. --] (]) 21:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' if by "community ban" we mean an indefinite involuntary bye-bye from the project. Surely there is a more constructive, targeted approach, if required. I've known D4D as an editor for quite a while and initially tangled with him, but personally I've found that some goodwill and patience pays off. He's here in good faith and does make sincere, positive contributions to the encyclopedia. He is also passionate in certain beliefs about politics and race, from a conservative point of view (forgive me if I don't quite have it right, but the specifics aren't the issue here) and has tended to blow off steam if challenged. But if approached calmly he usually knows when he's gone too far, and backs down from the objectionable behavior. I don't see the holocaust / circumcision comments as necessarily antisemitic, at least not in intent. Assuming good faith rather than assuming trolling, these are legitimate questions: (1) should our conception of the genocide in the holocaust be limited primarily to Jews (and perhaps gypsies and gay and disabled people) or should we also include other victims such as resistance fighters, Russian civilians, etc., (2) were most Jewish victims of the holocaust indeed circumcised - an uncomfortable but possibly legitimate question, and (3) was that particular photograph authentic - it is, but D4D may have simply been asking an honest question about that. I'm not saying he ''should'' have posted such an uncomfortable question in such a sensitive place, just that doing so may have been innocent or simply insensitive rather than out-and-out racist. I think a factual explanation of the truth of the matter, coupled with a calm request to please respect people's sensitivities over discussing the most morbid details of the holocaust, would settle this with a lot less fuss and loss to the project as tossing yet another editor over the side of the boat. If we think the long-term incivility has gone too far then some kind of civility parole or mentorship would be a lot more helpful. - ] (]) 21:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Per LHvU's comment below, is there a diff or link to the "ongoing campaign" - I know of the other two but have not noticed that, and it would be troubling. If there ''is'' to be a ban, why not limit it to the problem areas of race and politics? Both articles of the same, and any derogatory comments about the same. - ] (]) 00:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support community ban''' My recollections of past Noticeboard discussions re Die4Dixie; Username concerns - it was decided that a name evidencing an apparent strong allegiance to American Confederate sentiment was not inappropriate (or simply misunderstood, I cannot recall, as a mistaken perception). Flagrant celebration of death of Communist leader/icon/whatever, with commentary that inferred that liberals and socialists were the kin of such people and whose demise should likewise be celebrated. Ongoing campaign regarding Jews and the Holocaust, including suggestions that denialist claims should be included per WP:DUE or that general claims upon figures of Jewish deaths should be cited. I cannot recall specific references to either homosexuals or Catholics, but surely this would be a matter of time for such a stereotypical Southern States bigot?
	:Further, while there is a (good) practice of allowing individuals to "let off steam" immediately post block - vis a vis comments regarding the blocking admin or those held responsible for producing the block - I am extremely concerned that there was an instant accusation of Jewish conspiracy. ''In vino veritus''... anyone know the Latin for "anger"? ] (]) 22:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' community ban. Wehwalt's unilateral unblock against consensus has unfortunately made me change my voting in the ArbCom election: what he has written here seems extraordinarily clueless. ] (]) 23:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' community ban and '''trout''', at the least, Wehwalt for his/her unilateral unblock against consensus: I, too, am going to re-check my vote. The obvious trolling by Die4Dixie was bad enough, but the knee-jerk support for him has gone far past "reasonable doubt" into ] excuse-making territory. --] | ] 23:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' community ban. Examining genitalia of Holocaust victims to determine whether they're Jews, complaining about being blocked by an admin he perceives as Jewish, and earlier in his history requesting a source to support that Jews don't use human blood in religious rituals. There's no benefit to the project in harboring this kind of attitude. <font color="blue">]</font> 00:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	**Multiple explanations have been provided for the blood libel edit (mine originally, and finally ), but you still point to it unilaterally. I can do that too, ignore further explanation in favor of continuing to express my initial disgust at something, but while that's easier it also hampers progress in any situation. As for the genitalia, I don't see what's so terrible about pointing out genitalia in a photo, even one as gruesome as this, in order to voice factual concerns. I might've done the same thing, had I the misconception about the article D4D did. Granted I would've approached the subject more delicately than D4D did -- if he had, we might not be here -- but frankly he doesn't seem to possess the language skills for it. Should that mean he's condemned? There's plenty of benefit to the project, because for two years the user made unproblematic edits. You're just focusing on two isolated incidents that occurred 2 years apart. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 08:56, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	*Wehwalt's unblock did not follow consensus in any form whatsoever. I '''support''' the community ban on the basis of D4D's destructive behavior, and his failure to understand what is wrong with his actions. &mdash;] 05:51, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support'''. -''']''' <sup><small>]</small></sup></span> 07:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' community ban. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 08:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''', That is, if I can do so.--] (]) 08:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' community ban.] (]) 08:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' This editor does not appear to appreciative neutrality in writing articles and is a distraction to other editors. ] (]) 09:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' The comments were not per se antisemitic or violative of wikipedia rules that would deserve a ban. This is essentially people presuming a motive where none is apparent, and I feel that is insufficient justification. Questions about the content of a picture are not deserving of a ban, no matter what views of the editor may be plausibly inferred. Misplaced Pages is not censored as to viewpoints, and a presumably good faith comment on a talk page about a picture where no personal attack was made is not grounds for a ban.--] (]) 09:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' community ban. After everything that has happened, posting ("First I ran a search for Hochman using his first name that he gives here on Misplaced Pages. The article that pops up is about bull riding and has plenty of in-group humor of the "Nice Jewish Boy" type...") and similar shows that the editor is not going to be an asset to the encyclopedia. ] (]) 09:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Ummm. That was supposed to be where we could discuss that. I´m not following your logical leap from A to B. My explaining to the offended editor how I arrived there is more evidence of why I should be banned? Oy Vey(smacks head). A Jewish publication specifically mentioned "Nice Jewish Boy" and bull riding. here, you read it and see if I mischaracterized it: http://www.jewishmag.com/102mag/bullrider/bullrider.htm--] (]) 09:52, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' community ban. We are all of us (in part) products of our environments, and I am too well aware of what sort of material circulates in the American South; should Southerners in general be banned from Misplaced Pages because so many have been raised in a background distrustful of Jews? D4D, believe it or not, seems to have managed to emerge affected, but relatively mildly and reasonably (by comparison), by that background. This progress, even though incomplete, should be taken into consideration. The blocks of him, on the other hand, quickly bypassed any other form of dispute resolution, and may easily have served to only harden his beliefs about bigotry against him. Perhaps rage was not helpful here. <small>— ] (]/]) 09:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC)</small>
	* '''Support''' — per Jehochman; per Durova, too, whose talk page I just looked at. We could have had yesterday. Cement this, please. The piece that utterly convinced me was the urging to scrutinize the image for details of the genitals of gruesome corpses. *That's* trolling 101. ''Sincerely,'' <span style="text-shadow: 0.15em 0.15em 0.2em rgba(0,0,0,0.4);">]</span> 10:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' - this has gone on long enough. I wasn't going to comment but D4D's responses have convinced me. ] (]) 11:52, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''': LHvU has a better reasoning than I have. Additionally, I will note that I remember him trolling the Obama articles, where he was convinced that Obama was a secret Muslim communist who stole the election because of ACORN. Anyone who seriously believes that belongs on Conservapedia, not here. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 13:07, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::Not quite how that went down. One to nurse a grudge, Sceptre? I am sure, bright young fellow that you are, that you know exactly what you have done. Building the strawman is not particularly crafty this late in the game. I had expected something a little more thoughtful from you after a year. Sigh. Are the tellietubies not on ''yet''?--] (]) 13:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	{{discussion bottom}}
	===Alternatives to a ban===
	*'''Note''': Jehochman and Wehwalt are currently discussing alternatives to a community ban for the user. Please see the discussion ] before adding your !vote to the discussion above. ] (]) 18:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' Instead of unblocking and ''then'' offering D4D a compromise whereby he retracted his remarks, otherwise we go to an RFC (in other words, another complete waste of many editors time and effort), why on earth wasn't he left blocked ''until'' he withdrew those remarks and promised not to re-state them? Serious failure of ] there, methinks. <b>]</b> 19:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Time is never wasted in dealing with an editor in a manner not only fair, but also seen to be fair.--] (]) 19:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::: Oh, it is, because an RFC/U is inevitably subsumed in a large amount of bickering, most of which isn't actually about the subject in hand. And a lot of the time it leads to a unanimous agreement that ... er ... something should be done, but we're not sure what. <b>]</b> 19:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::: And what alternative is better?--] (]) 19:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::: The one favoured by most contributors to this thread (i.e. leaving him indeffed until there's some evidence that there is recognition of the behaviour that caused the block, and some evidence that it won't recur). <b>]</b> 21:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Moot point. The community seems to be taking it out of our hands, which is its right. I can only say I didn't think of it, and it wasn't proposed at the time. Whether I would have done that had I or someone else thought of it? Hmmm, not sure. Possibly the best course was to defer decision for a bit and urge D4D to strike the language before making a decision. But hindsight and 20/20 and all that. Hard to say.--] (]) 21:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Only moot because '''you mooted it''' by unblocking. ] (]) 22:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	**Well that's easy. Unblocking him forces the discussion, because only ''re-blocking him'' is wheel warring. :| ] (]) 19:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC) <small><comment restored after being accidentally removed in an edit conflict. Sorry about that> </small>
	::My response was eaten in an edit conflict, but he was unblocked because the structure of wheel makes only the reblocking wheel warring. ] (]) 19:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Regardless of what ] says, it's always been very bad form to undo another admin's block without the blocking admin's consent and when community discussion is strongly supportive of that block. I can tell you that I probably wouldn't be as conciliatory as Jehochman about it, if I were in his shoes. ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 19:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::Interesting characterization, MastCell. I read the discussion as deeply divided, and very powerful arguments made that no valid blocking rationale had been stated. That's what I limited myself to. Consent? I don't think that is the standard. That leaves things in the blocking admin's hands, which is not how things work. The blocking admin and I were part of a discussion at AN/I, and I looked at all the arguments in making a decision to unblock that I knew was not going to be wildly popular, but which was doing the right thing by an editor. It is the decision you have to make sometimes, even if you know you are going to take heat for it. Sorry if you feel offended on behalf of Jehochman, but he and I then engaged constuctively on how to move forward.--] (]) 19:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::{{conflict}}I don't see community discussion as being "strongly supportive" of the block. There's definitely some issues with D4D's conduct, but there's also been some serious questions raised as to the manner in which the block was applied. The issue at hand is not D4D's conduct (which seems to have been blown out of proportion) but rather whether the block was applied in an appropriate manner. I contend that it was not. I'm not offering support to D4D, I'm expressing my reservations as to how the block was applied. ] (]) 19:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::While I'm extremely unimpressed with D4D's conduct in general and am sitting on the fence regarding the prospect of a community ban, it seems clear to me that the original block was not applied correctly. The solution linked above looks like the right way to be moving. ] (]) 20:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Had an editor stated any other nationality/religion/ethnicity/cultural identity regarding any other editor-admin, I am sure that many members of the admin community would not have escalated it in the same way. That is the problem. The only way to be fair is to make policy tighter on these issues and enforce it more consistently where applicable. Being less conciliatory than necessary is counterproductive, particularly for a discussion where established editors are deeply divided on a matter of principle and approach rather than on the matter of an individual. There are very limited situations where in such discussions we can afford to focus on improving principle and approach prior to reviewing the individual, and I firmly believe this is one of them. But I fear that we're so used to focussing on the individual that the principle and approach is slowly being forgotten and is gradually going to cause even more problems for future disputes, including those that end up in front of ArbCom. Oh well, not our problem I suppose. ] (]) 20:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::It is what it is. All you can do is continue to do what you feel to be right.--] (]) 20:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::That's a very salient point, ncm. I've been involved in articles on Irish nationalism, and there have definitely been times where an admin was accused of using their tools to ban people on account of nationality. Never was it considered racist. I feel I must make this very clear: Insinuating that a Jewish admin was rushing to another's aid on account of their 'jewdom', rather than the merits of the case is not, repeat NOT racist. It may be wrong, or it may well be right. Either way, it's a legitimate concern, and one's particular religious or ethnic background does not give one immunity from such accusations. In no way is such an accusation a blockable offense, unless it contravened other established policies. Nor is it a personal attack, and must not be viewed as such. If an admin takes offense to an editor's claims about the motivation for their conduct, they need to seek a second opinion from another, uninvolved admin. ] (]) 20:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::Concur. The only thing separating this from other such cases is the specific ethnicity concerned; and that's a very, very bad state of affairs. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 21:01, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::::::::Not sure this is true. I'm fairly certain there would be immense outrage if he requested that no black administrators review his block. In fact, I'm fairly certain that if it was any other ethnic or religious groups ''besides'' Jews, this block wouldn't be an issue. "I don't want any Asians reviewing my block". ''Indef without any objections.'' "I don't want any Jews reviewing my block." ''Fair enough.'' ] 21:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::That's skewed phrasing in favor of your point. He said "Could a non involved gentile please look at this?" If someone were block by an Asian-sounding name on the belief that he insulted Asian culture, and said "Could an uninvolved non-Asian please look at this?", I don't think racism would've been suggested. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 21:12, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::::::::::: Actually, I disagree. Asking for uninvolved administrators is fine. Any administrator who reviews a block ''has'' to be uninvolved. We don't get to cherry pick by race, nationality, gender, or sexual orientation. No admin is infallible, but to disqualify an entire group of admins based on their religion, race, gender, or sexual orientation is flat out wrong. ] 21:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	{{outdent}}I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I see nothing wrong with requesting an uninvolved admin of a different ethnicity than the one you feel is conspiring against you. ] (]) 21:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Problem is that there wasn't a conspiracy and acquiescing to these kinds of demands is an insult to editors of any faith or race. ] 21:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::It's really not, and despite the term conspiracy being thrown around here, he didn't use that word in his request. Furthermore he wasn't disqualifying an entire group *period*; he was rather disqualifying the group that his comments were perceived as offending. That makes his request a COI concern rather than racism as you imply. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 21:33, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::No, you aren't entitled to choose the race, ethnicity, or religion of admins to handle a matter. The US has considered the matter many times (for example ]) with respect to court trials. Claiming that you can't be a fair administrator on a matter if you're Jewish is just wrong. The request is inappropriate but not terribly offensive on its face, but it does tend to inflame a delicate situation - best to give a firm "no" and move on. - ] (]) 21:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::: Policy doesn't support his request. You're more than welcome to attempt to change ] to conform with your views. ] 21:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Irrelevant since I didn't make any claims about whether policy supports the request. This isn't a question of whether or not it should have been granted -- only regarding whether or not it necessarily constituted racism, and whether he deserved to be blocked indefinitely for it. Again it was a COI concern and not racism. Unreasonable request maybe, racism no. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 21:49, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::::This is getting pointless. The reviewing admin thought it was anti-Semitic and the majority of users here agree. The only place I can see major disagreements is over whether or not Jehochman's original block was warranted and if that tainted the indef block. Split hairs all you like, I'm pretty much done here. ] 21:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Equazcion and I are saying the same thing, I think. A comment can be racially offensive without being intentionally so. To those who consider it anti-Semitic and worthy of sanctions, I urge them to think twice about whether it is better to simply punish people for causing offense, or to educate them as to why you're offended. The first approach doesn't really change anything. My two cents is that both the original block and the indef were within the blocking administrators' discretion and should not have been undone without discussion. Not that I agree with them, but undoing other admins' actions unless they are ''clearly'' erroneous often triggers a lot of unnecessary hand-wringing, this discussion being a case in point. What's the hurry to unblock? There's no deadline here. - ] (]) 22:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Basically yes, except on the procedural concerns of unblocking, which I don't have much of an opinion on. This is part ignorance and part not having thought about it... discussion prior to unblocking seems reasonable, but I also don't see much harm in unblocking as it seems to not have been preventative. It seems more harmful to me to keep someone blocked who might not deserve it, unless they're a potential immediate threat, and I didn't get the impression that that was a concern. This seemed to be one of the more "deterrent" type blocks. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 22:14, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	=== Request for non-Jewish admin "possibly legitimate" ===
	]
	This resolution deserves special comment. Many Wikipedians choose usernames that are unrelated to their religion, etc. Also due to adoptions and quirks of inheritance quite a few people even have surnames that bear little or no connection to their actual heritage. It is inappropriate and bad faith to presume that such types of coincidence impede administrative judgment. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 02:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	(unmarking resolution)
	I actually think granting the request for review from a non-jewish admin would have settled the matter quicker. Think about it: You have a belief that jewish admins are teaming up against you due to their ethnicity. What's going to do more good: Having an uninvovled gentile admin say "no, you were wrong", or having the two jewish admins say "no, you don't get to have a non-jew look at it". I'm not saying policy should be changed to reflect this, simply that in this case it might have prevented escalation. ] (]) 22:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:There is dubious value to validating such a request in any way. Among other matters, the inheritance aspect of Judaism comes through the mother's side while surnames generally derive from the father's. So through intermarriage quite a few people with Jewish surnames belong to other faiths. Also names (both rl and usernames) may be selected to honor an individual's achievements (as opposed to religion or ethnicity). We wouldn't take such a demand seriously if it referred to gender or nationality, and indeed when blocked users presumed I was Russian it never garnered more than a belly laugh. Nothing has changed since then. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 02:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Ok. I'm not jewish. I reviewed the block and determined that it needed to be lengthened considerably, not reversed. ] (]) 22:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::That's fine. At this point I'm just commenting on people's objection to D4D's request for non-jewish review, which people took exception to. I still think more discussion prior to your indef block would have been proper, but that's a seperate issue. It's also a moot one, as a course of action that allows D4D to acknowledge and apologize for his actions has already been undertaken. ] (]) 22:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::{{ec}} Doesn't count unless you tell him you're granting his request; plus the problems stated above of your reason for doing so; and the oddity of extending a block as a result of an unblock request, which makes your claim of granting the request seem rather after-the-fact; and there is the fact that it actually ''is'' after-the-fact; oh and you're right, this ''is'' the ''perfect'' time for flip and facetious responses to your opponents, what with the lighthearted nature of the subject matter. Good call. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 22:42, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::Let's not escalate things any further here. ] (]) 22:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::I'm not being flip or facetious, at least not in this comment. I'm unconvinced by your claim that unless I literally edit the unblock request it doesn't count. Besides, it is all premised on the absurd notion that D4D is somehow entitled to demand that a unitarian unblock him, or what-have you. ] (]) 22:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::If you consider the demand unreasonable (and I don't necessarily disagree), then your response implying that you granted it ("it" being the request for a non-jewish admin) is facetious, especially considering that you added the fact that you extended the block instead as a result of an unblock request. You were being humorous. It would've been good, had we not been in the lengthy argument we're in. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 23:07, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::I'm not sure we are connecting here. I wasn't joking when I suggested that indeffing him was an implicit unblock review, where the unblock request was that a non-jew review the block. Why we are even having an argument w/ the assumption that such a request is something done in polite society is pretty unclear to me. ] (]) 23:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::We are having the discussion because there's a couple of members of said polite society who believe the request could have some legitimacy. ] (]) 23:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::I remember at some stage {{User|Alison}} was told by a fellow administrator that her Irish background meant that she should probably not administer issues connected with the Troubles. These statements about presumed Jewish administrators are similarly disturbing. This is a sad day for wikipedia. ] (]) 23:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Aw, it's not that bad! It's not a sad day, just an impermissible request for which a firm "no" is called for. I have chosen not to reveal my ethnicity, race, gender, nationality, location, political beliefs, etc., on Misplaced Pages (although some would be an easy guess). In this particular case it's moot because I'm not an admin, but in a more general sense if I have decided that ethnicity / religion is not part of my editing experience, I don't think that issue should be forced on me. That's a corollary of the right to edit anonymously, not to have your religion called into question. On the other hand if I loudly proclaimed everywhere that I was an activist on Jewish causes, then by my statements I was declaring a personal position. That's different, and it would be reasonable for someone to assert that this gave too much of an appearance of bias for me to pass judgment on someone's statements about the subject. If D4D were truly concerned and had a legitimate fear of being ganged up on, a more delicate thing to request would be to find administrators who do not have a content stake on articles reflecting Jews and the holocaust. - ] (]) 00:05, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::{{ec}} Always the dramatic, Mathsci :) I view this portion of the discussion as more academic, as the main issue is really whether or not the request itself was enough of a problem to block indef for. Whether or not it should actually be granted in the future is an interesting subject, and I don't see it being "sad" to discuss it, but it's sort of beyond this particular incident. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 00:07, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::::::I wouldn't be surprised if people commenting in favour of D4D in this thread were themselves blocked at some later stage. What some of them have written here seems ill-considered. ] (]) 00:17, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::Absolutely. The number and vehemance of the anti-semitic apologists in this discussion is appalling. ] (]) 00:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::That's uncalled for. Come on guys, this is a discussion, not a riot. - ] (]) 00:29, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	{{outdent}} Am I to understand that those calling for additional blocks don't see how that behaviour contributes to the perception, rightly or wrongly, that there are special interest groups on wikipedia who will band together to ensure that their views become official policy? Are you kidding me? You want to dole out a block for my saying that D4D's request for a non-jewish admin to review his case in light of his belief that he was being discriminated against could be valid? That I'm being anti-semitic? You are doing nothing to help your own position or wikipedia by so arguing. You are, in fact, lending credibility to the bigots and racists out there. ] (]) 00:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	: Let's just end this. What administrative action is required for this specific issue? To me this appears to be a policy discussion and AN/I is for incidents that require administrative action. If you want to change the rules for Jewish administrators, start a discussion at ] or file an ]. The only aspect of this that we can really do anything about here is the community ban. Let's focus on that. ] 00:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:: I agree with your assessment, especially in light of the new action being taken in regards to D4D. For the record, I'm not saying anything about Jewish admins, just questioning the hasty remarks some editors have been making here. ] (]) 00:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Some users appear to have suggested on-wiki, and have requested clarification off-wiki, as to whether I'm "sympathetic" to Die4Dixie, or an "apologist" of anti-semitic commentary. The plain answer on both counts is no. I do hope that {{user|Craftyminion}} will take more care in his/her future on-wiki comments to avoid sparking something like this again. I don't recall interacting with Die4Dixie previously, nor have I expressed a view on the merits of anything beyond a block rationale, and I certainly don't find any sort of offensive commentary acceptable. What I am sympathetic towards, as my earlier comment was hinting at, is the inconsistent enforcement by the community at large. Be it the admins or the established editors who've responded here, none had responded as aggressively as they did here (if at all) to similar accusations of bad faith in some other cases, whether it's a European ethnic conflict (English/Irish), an Asian ethnic conflict (Indian subgroups), or some other conflict involving race/religion/ethnicity/nationality/cultural identity. Is there inconsistent enforcement because some people are more aware about history relating to a particular type (Jewish), and not others? Or is it because of how "well known" the individuals involved are? Is it a lack of clarity/awareness in policy? Or finally, is it because there is an genuine (but very unfortunate) divide in the community on this principle? Frankly, I don't know - I just want that to be remedied so everyone who makes a particular type of comment or demand is treated in the same way, regardless of which race/religion/ethnicity/nationality/cultural identity they touch on, and regardless of which individual (be it editor or admin) that the accusation goes against. Misrepresenting this as being apologistic to what is broadly unacceptable simply add heats to a discussion, not light. Sometimes users who raise an issue for community awareness are doing just that - nothing more. ] (]) 07:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::Nmvocalist: grotesque discussions of the type that D4D was having about pictures of what ] would normally classify as a "pile of corpses" are just not acceptable on wikipedia, nor are the ensuing Jewish conspiracy theories. Likewise a grotesque discussion about a picture of comparable atrocities elsewhere in the world should elicit a similar reaction. That is for example why {{User|Fourdee}} was banned by Jimbo. Indef blocked {{User|MoritzB}} for example was inserting material in ] from contemporary newspaper reports to suggest that the lynchings were merited. It's probably worth looking more carefully at the whole of D4D's recent contributions, including the remark left on Durova's talk page. In addition, there are others opposing the community ban such as {{User|William S. Saturn}} whose alternative accounts have been involved in ]. I think that in a more general context you are making a valid point; however in this particular case the extreme nature of D4D's remarks, just like those of Fourdee in the period leading up to his ban, go beyond reasonable limits. That is probably why Protonk extended the block to indefinite. ] (]) 07:47, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Thanks Mathsci. Raising the point in a more general context unfortunately does not receive enough input from the community and does little in the way of raising awareness effectively to those who need to be aware of it - the editors and admins who intervene to help resolve these sorts of issues. That's why I raised it during this incident when there is deep care and a lot of eyes, so that the process of addressing the issue finally begins. I hope that you will, at least in time, appreciate that it would not have been possible to do so effectively, without Wehwalt's intervention. In the meantime, I've struck my procedural oppose as it can no longer apply to this specific case. ] (]) 08:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Why not just ask D4D how he meant it? It's a troubling subject no matter how one comments on it - all talk of the Holocaust is difficult, and should be so. But did D4D mean to cause trouble, or were his comments earnest but insensitive? - ] (]) 08:14, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::: may help answer that. ] (]) 08:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::EC x 2. Look, you will always be able to find something to be offended at. Hochman gives his name, posts his picture, links to his Linkdn page all from his userpage. That google search is not offensive in the slightest. I have not engaged in any Jewish conspiracy theory. No mention of the ], no holocaust denial. Nice try at the association fallacy by suggesting that I am like someone like Fourdee. I never knew what the yad vashem was that keeps getting invoked here until I clicked on the link. The picture was put there to be looked at. It is a grotesque picture. I have struck those comments hours ago now. Please see the discussion on my talkpage that explains. What ever Saturn has done with his account does not mean that I am Saturn. Can you not do better than these tired ad hominems? Collect the diffs on this history of jew baiting, because that is what you are acusing me of, right? You are way too invested in this. Go have a cup of tea or read a book. You may think that your attacks are ok because you are discussing banning me, and twisting something to make it appear that I have claimed some conspiracy to try and tar me with antisemitism, but it is not. Nice trying to poison the well with mentioning lynching too.--] (]) 08:22, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::D4D, if you didn't / don't mean to offend why not just say that? Intended or not, you upset some people who have good reason to be offended. Some here lost loved ones in the tragedy, and even those who did not are keeping the memory alive so it won't be repeated. Whether you intended to bait or not your line snared some deep fish. I think it would be helpful to separate that question from the related issue of whether you were unfairly treated here for speaking your mind. If that's the case why not just apologize for having upset people and in the future try not to step on those landmines. Perhaps take your lumps? Sorry if this sounds PC but some subjects deserve deference to people's feelings. - ] (]) 08:55, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::D4D's explanations are not helpful, here or elsewhere. In the original discussion, he mentioned that he clicked on the image. At that point he could see all the data on the image in front of him, including a reference to the original photographic library from which the image was apparently copied. In fact for images of this kind that site uses captions which refer to "prisoners" without further qualification. The wikipedia article ] is similar. ] (]) 09:20, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::I clinked the link from ANI. I didn´t examine the pedigree or providence of the photo. I looked at the penises. Wikidemom, ''adversus solem ne loquitor''. The hive is agitated. Axes were ground today. This is a bonding ritual for some. Have fun. You can read thaat tally up above.--] (]) 09:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::BTW Jehochman lives in ]. Here is his linkedin page . The Jonathan Hochman D4D unearthed lives in Texas. This seems to be his linkedin page , judging by the references to ], ] and rodeo riding. This is the kind of unfortunate error that happens when editors start writing about conspiracy theories. ] (]) 09:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::And I apologized if it was not him. Nothing is going to satisfy you but a sacrificial rite. Where was the the conspiracy theory. I was concerned that he could not put his feelings aside, just like you can´t seem to do. I struck the G*d damn comments on the penis page, I have been roundly abused and all kinds of motives have been ascribed. You sound like I was writing some treatise on Some International Jewish Conspiracy. I wasn´t , and I didn´t. Me, I´m going to eat a bagel. You should have a cup of tea. And thank goodness I didn´t invert that order or you would have cranked up the Hague.--] (]) 10:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::Why is D4D still repeating this error ? What is the exact point of writing "Oy Vey (smacks head)."? Is it some form of joke? ] (]) 10:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::<small>What is the exact point of pointing that out? Is it some sort of assertion? ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 10:31, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span></small>
	::::::It shows that there are probably still problems with D4D's edits to wikipedia. ] (]) 10:55, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:This is surreal. No, a request for a non-Jewish admin is not legitimate. If you think so, would you be willing to entertain requests for non-white admins on anything that has to do with slavery (well, we want non-black there as well) or the third world? For non-American admins on articles about the Iraq war, the Vietnam war, Waterboarding, or the election campaign? For non-Christian admins, for, say, work on ]? For non-male admins on ] or ] (where you could also ask on non-female ones, or non-divorced ones...). The suggestion that a whole large group of editors is biased because of their ethnicity, or gender, or hair color, is inherently offensive to all ]ized society. ]. --] (]) 10:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::These are poor analogies. Are you suggesting that anyone who doesn´t share your rigid world view is uncivilized? Is that not the hight of cultural elitism? The least tolerant attitude that I have yet to see tonight? Are you suggesting that I am not civilized, herr Schulz? Unvarnished prose is to be perfered.--] (]) 10:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::*They're poor analogies for another reason too: People in those situations wouldn't be nearly as likely to offend as easily due to the subject matter. Jewish admins acting on a perceived antisemitic remark, particularly on a Holocaust article, and ''particularly'' on a photo of dead Holocaust victims, is much more understandably called a possible conflict of interest. Not that I necessarily think D4D's request should have been granted, but still, it wasn't entirely disgusting either, nor worthy of the racism label. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 11:14, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::*I suggest that you (D4D) are intentionally offensive to make a ], both in this last reply, in the original scuffle, and in your request for a non-Jewish admin. You may or may not be civilized, but with your behavior is not fit for civilized society. ] is not a suicide pact. You have exhausted my good faith a while ago. --] (]) 11:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Retreating to the original accusation doesn't advance the argument. This is the equivalent of "I still think you're wrong". ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 11:26, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::::::(ec) Are you joking? This guy has just been released from an indef block on condition that he starts behaving, immediately goes around saying "Oy vey" and "Herr Schulz", and you accuse Stephan Schulz of "retreating to the original accusation" when he points out the obvious problem? Are you from some strange civilisation where that would be considered normal or even deescalating behaviour?
	:::::::::It's getting more and more obvious that I was right before: That guy simply tries to stay ''just'' below the level where it gets actionable. (The technical term for this is of course "trolling", and I am usually quite reluctant to use it. Here it's obvious by now.) ] ] 11:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::"Pointing out the obvious problem" again isn't helpful. Providing rationale to back up why one sees a problem is a better way to go. Otherwise we're all just repeating ourselves ad nauseum. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 11:50, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::::Huh? --] (]) 11:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::In other words, in your last response you didn't answer the last point brought, nor did you provide any further rationale to advance your argument. You instead repeated your feeling that the user was being intentionally offensive, which I think everyone already knows by now, and doesn't help the discussion. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 11:38, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::::::To Schulz: Now what did you find so offensive about me requesting that you clarify an extremely offensive post. Don´t even try to say that you came to this discussion with your good faith pants on. You have been twisting everything you could get your hands on to contort it to the least favorable and most inflammatory extreme that you possible could. You have engaged in logical fallacies, reductio ad you name its, and general nastiness. What were you so offended by? That someone you tried to minimize and dehumanize wasn´t inclined to entertain your melodramaticly waxing poetic bull shit?--] (]) 11:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::In fairness I think you're "contorting to the least favorable and most inflammatory extreme that you possible can" too, D4D. Summing up your opponents' arguments as bullshit isn't helpful. Most people in an argument with opponents they don't care for think similarly, and saying it doesn't help anyone. It's probably best to stick to intellectual arguments rather than resorting to hostile classifications. But I'm probably wasting my time, aren't I. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 11:48, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::::::::I think that I have suffered a great deal of abuse at this man´s hands. Pointed abuse, over the top personal attacks. If I crossed the line with BS, ok. Perhaps I might not be helping myself here now. But his civilized comments and dichotomizing was a little over the top. Your call.--] (]) 11:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::In my view most of the people commenting here are over the top. I've probably been guilty of the same at some point. Let's just all try to keep it under control and keep it civil/rational/fact-based, rather than seeking to strike emotional blows at one-another. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 12:00, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::::::::::Equazcion, stop enabling this obvious racist troll or we will have to start a discussion on what to do about ''you''. I am not familiar with you and therefore find it hard to judge if your current behaviour is in good faith or not. It certainly doesn't look as if it is. ] ] 12:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::Whether or not this person is an "obvious racist troll" is precisely what we're trying to determine, through discussion, which is all I'm doing. I don't see anything particularly wrong with that, even if lots of people disagree with me. When it's a majority against a minority, flinging "you're wrong"s and "youre obviously this or that"s is unfortunately all that's needed, since the majority has more bullets. My "enabling", as you put it, is an attempt to level the playing field and get rid of the back-and-forth accusations in favor of forcing more intelligent discussion. Feel free to start a discussion about me though, if you feel that's a bad thing. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 12:16, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::::::::::::::I guess obvious racist trolls need love, too! Seriously, if you're looking for a chance to get your Fightin' for the Underdog ya-yas out, you've picked the wrong cause to champion. --] | ] 14:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::So much for raising the intelligence bar of this discussion. If it were about who could develop the more clever and cutting line, I think I'd win. I'm totally good at that, in addition to waxing intellectica. But that's neither here nor there... right? ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 14:31, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	Comment, I've tried to stay out of this but would like to say some now. First, asking for a non Jewish administrator is never acceptable. Googling to find information about any editor is also very much against policy. I won't classify anyone but I was very angry at both of these things happening. I am also upset to read this whole thread to find that no one, not one editor or administrator comments on the searching admitted to. Dixie, I have no problems with you personally but these two things really irked the hell out of me. I just had to let Dixie and others here know that their are some of us lurking. These things need to stop asap. Thank you for your time, --]] 12:52, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:It's a bit uncouth to bring up, in a dispute with another editor, personal details that you've found out about them through off-wiki methods, and in the case of revealing specific identifying information could be considered ]. The googling alone isn't against policy though. You can google whatever you want whenever you want. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 13:00, 3 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	===Arb===
	I agree with equz. If you want to vote, vote. But enough of the attacks and melodramatic flairs. If someone has a concrete thing they would like me to do, suggest it. If not, I´ll concede the field. What has happened here is and was wrong.--] (]) 12:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	== Brilliant, fabulous ==
	{{resolved|] has decided to take the matter to Arbcom. --] (]) 14:47, 3 December 2009 (UTC)}}
	I began a discussion above about an admin who had not done a proper review of my case and refused to discuss the matter. He now says he has been fired from his job and my case is not a priority. Naturally I feel sorry for someone who has been fired but that shouldn't affect wikipedia's handling of my case.
	I was asked above to clarify and then the discussion was cut off before I was able to. Instead I was attacked by people who appear not to have understood the history or digested fully the last few days' exchange. Why do I get a feeling of deja vu? I would be happy to answer the question asked if the close on the discussion above is lifted. I consider it discourteous to be asked a question and then not allowed to answer. Neither was I allowed to address the faulty block history which was quoted when this began (admitted now by more than one admin) and which clearly influenced the mind of "the community". I hope wikipedia can do better than this. ] (]) 09:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Diffs on the personal attacks? I don't see anything uncivil in that last ANI. Seriously, would you please back away from the situation and especially that admin for awhile? He even admitted they're in no position to handle your situation, which is what a good admin should do. If you have evidence to present in an ANI, put it in your first post, because as you've seen you may well not get another chance to. Note that he said he was busy, not that you were not a priority. Misplaced Pages is 100% volunteer work and often editors can't get done everything they want. That's "community". No admin or anyone else "owe you priority" by default. ...It was suggested in the last ANI you filed on this, yesterday, it was suggested your take this to ]. Another ANI isn't going to accomplish much. <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 10:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Let's try this again. You insisted the admin in question carry out a review, then you didn't like what he said. What part of "Take this to ]" are you not understanding. ] (]) 17:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	== User making offensive edits ==
	I have noticed that ] has been making a number of offensive edits. The user has has a level 1, 2 and 3 warning in the space of eight hours! As all of these edits have been made in such a short space of time I'm not quite sure what would be the best course of action, but I draw your attention to the nature of the edits (some racist, but all potentially offensive). and .
	The full list is ]. Perhaps something to keep an eye on? ] (]) 10:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	: No sense in warning them if nobody actually showed the the rules. I've given them a {{tl|Welcomevandal}} for now. It's pretty standard-looking vandalism - maybe when they sign in again, they'll see that people actually pay attention. (]<span style="border:1px solid red;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 11:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Hm, I blocked this account indefinitely, as it looked like a run-of-the-mill disruption-only account, and the edits were egregious. If anyone disagrees with the block, they have my permission to take the action they deem appropriate. <tt>]</tt> (]) 11:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:I'm going to have to object, but for very unusual and rather complex reasons. First, my disclaimer is that you're allowed to entirely ignore what I say. Originally I just wanted to check on that "8 hours" for 3 warnings as being suspicious (it's too slow for the average vandal) and found far more odd. Really, I think you're 120% supposed to ignore anything I suggest as a non-admin, but, a change to 12 or 24hr from final article edit would seem better give another shot to see if they're serious about Misplaced Pages or not. They literally has confirmation of incorrect policies (see below). BWilkins has a good within-Wiki-AGFable-grasp view on it with the welcome message today. Basically, Since the situation is a lot more complicated than normal, nothing to the blocking admin since obviously it was in good faith. These details are far, far out of view. Depending on the admin this might have been no block? Not my place to judge.
	:There haven't been any edits at all since that welcome notice was put up; had been 7 hours and the user long gone for the night. No mainspace edits at all since the cluebot lvl1 warning. Actually, the user's first edit was evening of 30 November, and was what I'll call "kinda AGF vandalism intended as humor to select audiences". It went untouched for over a full day! I was wondering why there was no welcome or warning on a talk page from then, but that's because I just now undid it. ''Of course'' the user didn't think they'd done anything bad. They made 1 edit their first night, came back 24 hours later and everything was exactly the same. Not only did they not know the actual guidelines, they had developed beliefs in an entirely wrong set of guidelines. This alone is reason to remove the def and significantly reduce length, because this is flat-out our faults. ...Moving on, the user ''might'' have seen HamburberRadio's lvl2 warning, and even if they did, they stopped editing for the night, meaning they "obeyed" technically.
	:Bigger question to me was why were there no welcomes or warnings or at least notices about the first few edits? Well I already explained the first. The first edit last evening ''was'' caught on a Huggle patrol, but for some reason no warning template was sent. Looking at the (Huggle) user's history, s/he obviously has automatic warnings turned on, but maybe has create new talk pages turned off maybe? Pains me a bit to say, but this was a comical string of tiny gaffs all around on our end... including me since this is my third write of a different opinion after I discovered something depressing (the missed vandalism, this time). However much I figure I'll run across this user again somewhere, this was really not their fault since they did nothing against policy after the time they knew of policy. 12/24 or remove completely and leave them a note. <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 15:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::You can only stretch AGF so far. I refuse to believe that the user thought was a legitimate and appropriate one. His is libel of the worst kind. Note that the editor has already gotten into the habit of using innocuous edit summaries to disguise his edits as legitimate ones ('''m''' "Just some cleaning up"), and his fourth edit is in the same vein. Having looked at the particulars one more time, I have to stick with my indefinite block, which is in accordance with the blocking policy for disruption-only accounts, both in terms of duration and the number of warnings received. I see no indication that the user is interested in contributing constructively. But again, if consensus is that this user's block duration should be reduced, I shall not object. However, even an indef block may be appealed, so the door is half-open, anyway. <tt>]</tt> (]) 15:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Concur with indefblock. If the user is incapable of realising that those edits are utterly inappropriate in ''any'' public forum without having it explained to them, I question their suitability to be here at all. We can perhaps do them a favour by applying ], but that doesn't mean we're obliged to keep them around. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::Concur as well. ], move on. ]''']''' 18:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::: I guess I go by the ] concept. Maybe it takes AGF too far, but with a handful of stupid edits over a period of time, I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt .... (]<span style="border:1px solid red;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 18:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::: Whole-heartedly endorse block. The less trash like this on Misplaced Pages, the better. ] (]) 23:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::: You'll get no disagreement from me, but I always figure I should be judicious in a first ANI reply post to explain the details of things past the short starter description. I just reeeeealy want to give people 1 more shot on AGF after an ANI posting so any blocks don't look punitive and there's a prior and current pattern to look at. Wow, I must look absolutely evil for how much I try to balance a starting evidence posting. <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 03:05, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	== BLPs, ethnic origin categories and an IP hopper, redux ==
	Okay, I'm slowly being driven (or driving myself) mad with this. We've got an IP-hopping uncommunicative editor who is making very very many weird edits to ]s. I previously brought this up , where the consensus was to revert on sight, as I and a couple of others have been trying to do. But it's hundreds of edits a week, and the edits have frequently been helpfully tidied up by other editors (they don't look like abuse on first glance), making reverting painful and slow.
	The IP in question is adding ethnic origin categories to BLPs. But the mental leap required to make these categories even begin to make sense is massive.
	For instance, ] is a New York comedian. But for the IP, he's - possibly because of his surname. He doesn't identify as English American and he isn't called English American by any other source. ] is a New York actor. But his mother had Italian forebears, whilst his father had Dutch ancestors. So, for the IP, he's . He doesn't identify as Italian or Dutch American and he isn't called Italian or Dutch American by any other source. ] is a Canadian actor. The IP says - without a source - that he's of . He doesn't identify as any of them and no other source identifies him as any of them.
	Lately, this has been getting weirder. Apparently, the fictional ] is . Meanwhile, her equally fictional son ] is .
	Now, this isn't the biggest run of vandalism we've ever had, and some of these categories may be correct (although the maths to work it out - American X's grandfather's cousin's daughter married a Mexican, so that makes American X Spanish-American ''really'' - is far too complicated for me). The IP in question is non-communicative on any of their talk pages.
	The IPs in question are:
	*{{IPvandal|166.216.128.5}}
	*{{IPvandal|166.216.128.6}}
	*{{IPvandal|166.216.128.7}}
	*{{IPvandal|166.216.128.8}}
	*{{IPvandal|166.216.128.9}}
	*{{IPvandal|166.216.128.10}}
	*{{IPvandal|166.216.128.11}}
	*{{IPvandal|166.216.128.12}}
	*{{IPvandal|166.216.128.13}}
	*{{IPvandal|166.216.128.15}}
	*{{IPvandal|166.216.128.16}}
	and, out of the above pattern,
	*{{IPvandal|98.15.139.47}}
	*{{IPvandal|71.246.181.254}}
	What to do? Block 'em? Range blocks? Edit Filter? Something else? Or am I totally in the wrong here? <small>⬅ ]''']''']</small> 11:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Rangeblock the first set of addresses. I don't know if it's possible to edit filter like that without catching other users, particularly if he is indiscriminately hitting BLP pages. ] (]) 11:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Huh. Wireless network. The set covers under it. ...The last two separates up there in the same area but that doesn't necessarily mean much. Not sure how literally to take each IP even if there's the obvious habits of all. Could be someone playing a large trick on us. ........Looks like the range was hit with a 2 week block. Hope that doesn't make anything explode. <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 13:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Well if that doesn't solve the problem, can we not just identify problematic IPs and create an edit filter to flag up each and every revision they make so rollbackers and others know to revert on sight? ] ] 13:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::The problem would be that the filter would have to hit every IP. A filter hitting IPs after we find them is not much help, since finding an IP doing this sort of crap is five seconds away (via huggle) from reverting it. ] (]) 14:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::I blocked the range for two weeks yesterday. - ] (]) 23:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	<-Thanks, Rjd0060 - most welcome. Now, a general question for everybody. Having brought this here, having spent weeks reverting (with others), does the community class me as "involved" should the IP return and another block is required? Should I, if it is needed, do it myself... or report it to AIV with a link to this discussion for someone else to do it? <small>⬅ ]''']''']</small> 08:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	== ] backlog ==
	{{resolved|Thanks all ] 15:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)}}
	I was reporting one myself (not a bad one mind you, so don't worry about the one I reported) but I noticed that Biker Biker has correctly flagged a bunch of especially nasty usernames which should be taken care of. Hoping a wandering admin can take a look. Thanks. ] 11:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Okay - maybe not a big deal because none have contribs yet (at least none that haven't been deleted)... but still worth a look. ] 12:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Mostly cleared up. <font color="darkorange">]</font><b><font color="midnightblue"><big>]</big></font></b><font color="red">]</font> 14:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	7, you have a username that violates current policy. You are only allowed to use that name because you're "grandfathered" in. Please would you consider not reporting usernames under these circumstances? ] (]) 18:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:The notion that he shouldn't be allowed to report inappropriate usernames because of his own name is rather ridiculous, quite frankly. ]''']''' 18:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Move along everyone. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Why? His name is a policy violation. Having a user with a policy-violating username report other users for having policy violating usernames is absurd. ] (]) 18:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	<small>I'll inform 7 about this now ] (]) 18:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)</small>
	I'm not getting where you're getting that his username is a policy violation. So far as I can see, the name is not misleading, promotional, offensive, or disruptive, nor is it particularly confusing. How is "7" an inappropriate username? ''''']]]''''' 03:55, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	NotAnIP, the username filter isn't the same as the username policy. For one thing, the username filter is enforced by a computer, while the username policy is enforced by people. I don't know why the username filter prevents one from registering names that are only made of digits, but it's really not a big deal and it's not in any way a statement about policy. ] (]) 04:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:I appreciate everyone's comments and I certainly hope that there is no policy violation with my username, however I would like to address NotAnIP's concerns as s/he appears to have had them for a while. When NotAnIP mentioned this as a reason for a neutral vote in my RFA the explanation that someone gave me (sorry, I can't find where) was: after a group of vandals registered usernames that looked like IP addresses or were obfuscated IPs a check was put in place to prevent the user from registering it directly. However as mentioned above these names can still be usurped and policy does not disallow them. Furthermore, I believe these accounts can still be created via ] with error-checking turned off. I am active over at ACC, as are a lot of other strong editors so I am sure if someone wanted to put this to the test we could. '''I just did a check, and all single digits 1-9 are already registered with the exception of 4.'''<small> (doubt that will last long) </small> If someone wants to request an alternate account or wants to ]'d to that account we can put this to the test. As far as I know, nobody has grandfathered me on anything (and I'm still mad I missed the 18-21 drinking age grandfathering by a few years back in the early 80s). My username was only recently changed and followed the required procedures. I agree with Nja247 that we should all move along now, but I'd also like to address NotAnIPs concerns so this doesn't haunt me (and the 34 others who have single number or letter usernames). ] 04:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::One caveat - 4 is available on en.wp - but SUL won't be available as the username is already active on a few other wikimedia projects. ] 04:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	== Unsupported attacks by Redheylin after warnings ==
	{{userlinks|Redheylin}} has received multiple different warnings from admins and established editors over a long period of time to cease making ] and unsupported claims about other editors which amount to same. He has continued to do so . Admin action is required here, as the multiple "final warnings" have had no effect.
	*After an ANI thread was closed by admin ] with a warning to Redheylin , I had hoped that the issue would be resolved. However it appears this is not the case, as Redheylin continues to make wholly unsupported claims that I "make changes to a page with a view to making a WP:POINT on another page", that I use "inadequate citations", and that this is "disruptive" .
	*Comments by a third-party, previously uninvolved editor ], show that this is not the case: '''', and subsequent analysis, ''''.
	;Warnings
	*01:01, 16 April 2009 - From ]: ''''
	*16:24, 16 April 2009 - From ]: ''''
	*13:32, 29 November 2009 - From ]: ''''
	*13:34, 29 November 2009 - From ]: ''''
	*13:47, 29 November 2009 - From ]: ''''
	*14:06, 29 November 2009 - From ]: ''''
	*21:58, 29 November 2009 - From ]: ''''
	*14:58, 30 November 2009 - From ] - ''''
	;ANI thread closed by Jehochman with warning to Redheylin
	*03:51, 30 November 2009 - Comment by ]: ''''
	*04:29, 30 November 2009 - ANI thread closed by ]: ''''
	;Redheylin recent unsupported claims
	*13:02, 29 November 2009 - ''''
	*16:31, 29 November 2009 - ''''
	*08:49, 2 December 2009 - ''''
	----
	Thank you for your time, ''']''' (]) 15:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:I tend to agree with the above comments, that the editor in question has in fact continued to engage in what is clearly disruptive and tendentious editing, even after being warned repeatedly to cease such behavior. Unfortunately, I also know that I would be perceived as having a conflict of interest in actively imposing the deserved sanctions myself. ] (]) 16:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	: I think we should invite the editor to comment here. If we cannot reach a mutual agreement with them to stop pestering you, then several of us can certify an RfC, and based upon the results there, we may be able to implement a community sanction forcing the editor to disengage for you or the topic areas where they habitually get into trouble. I recognize that this is a potentially time consuming process, but I think it is the only way to generate a solid consensus for a remedy that will provide lasting relief. Escalating blocks to the user will just result in more grief; I'd rather not kick the can down the road. We should deal with this problem seriously and decisively. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Gave notice to user's talkpg when I filed it . ''']''' (]) 16:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*All of the above admin/editors have intervened on behalf of Cirt. Cirt has a long history of edit-warring on "new religious movements" and has been in dispute with many editors. I think you'll find that, outside these pages, these things do not happen much to me. On the other hand, as I say, these things "happen to" Cirt with many editors. This experience conditions my impression of this affair. Although I have spent only a short time involved with these pages, Cirt has secured several warnings from admins who allege that all objections to disruption, poor citation, incivility and lack of good faith are "personal attacks" on Cirt, whereas Cirt's own comments are above reproach as she is "highly respected". Well, she may be, but her application for sysop status drew great concern owing to repeated blocks for those very faults on these very articles. I have had no contact with any of these editors other than when they intervened on Cirt's behalf. Their minds were, I fear, made up, and their approaches often questionable. Just now user John Carter has ventured to forbid me ALL bold editing for no clear reason. As for Georgewilliamherbert, here's how we met on my talk page:
	::Redheylin - It has been suggested that this exchange of correspondence lead to you acting as Off2riorob's proxy, or collaboration between you two, in complaining about Cirt's conduct (your recent ANI posting). Given Off2riorob's recent disagreement with Cirt the combination of behavior is sort of suspicious. Would you like to comment on ANI regarding the nature of this discussion you two had? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:53, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
	*This is to say, as Cirt has been in edit-war with ANOTHER editor YOU must be acting in bad faith. This IS an assumption of bad faith, based on another editor's asking to confer with me on some matter - I do not know which as the contact never occurred. But the above admin used this allegation to turn MY ANI report on Cirt's misuse of citations, which he avoided by repeatedly asking me to define the way in which the information claimed was not present, into a witch-hunt based on his own unsupported accusations of some unnamed nefarious collaboration. This stuff is hard to take seriously - and that seems to make these folks very mad. That's all. ] (]) 22:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	===Update: Continued violations by Redheylin===
	*,
	:This comment violates ], as it makes attacks not backed up or supported by anything. It violates ], as it is use of the talk page space for discussion not related to further improvement of this article but rather to increase drama and drag out attacks. And per both of those, it violates ]. I asked Redheylin to remove it. He refused, saying: ''''. ''']''' (]) 02:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*See FwiW ] (]) 14:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC).
	===Disagreement with Cirt's analysis===
	Stating that content isn't supported by the citations used is a personal attack? Since when? And I don't see saying someone has a POV as ideal, although it's sometimes accurate and worth pointing out. Is Cirt denying he has a point of view? I don't see how any of this behavior is blockable, but Cirt's aggressive battlefield approach has been extraordinarily disruptive. If accusign someone of having a POV is blockable then the diffs of Cirt saying the same thing repeatedly are problematic. He's also made numerous statements ascribing bad faith to others and accusing them of collusion. This ANI report is outrageous and some sanction against Cirt and his suitability to have admin tools may be worth considering. ] (]) 18:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Since it was about matters which had been resolved already, and the editor in question has continued to basically ], which is a form of ], which itself is a violation of ]. I would have to think that calling someone an "outrageous hypocrite" is itself almost certainly a violation of ], by the way, as you so clearly do above. Perhaps we are to take that as being an indication you are unable to understand the meaning of "personal attack"? ] (]) 18:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::{{user|ChildofMidnight}} has been interjecting himself into disputes, pushing for the POV of {{user|Redheylin}} and supporting Redheylin in the prior ANI thread . ChildofMidnight even went so far as to start a duplicate post at ] in support of Redheylin's POV - directly below a post I had just made at the same noticeboard . This could have something to do with the fact that admin ] was one of the admins listed above that has warned Redheylin, and apparently ChildofMidnight does not like this particular admin . In addition to {{user|Redheylin}}, it would seem {{user|ChildofMidnight}} would also merit a warning regarding ] and ]. ''']''' (]) 18:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Here we go again with Cirt's accusations against those he disagrees with. I do not support Redheylin's views and I don't even know what they are fully. I've encouraged him and Cirt to use the dispute resolution process rather than ANI boards and accusations and counter accusations. When someone accuses someone else of doing something they themselves are doing that is by definition hypocrisy. And here again we see Cirt accusing me of something that isn't true after I've explained myself repeatedly (see my talk page). A block of Cirt and a desysop may be appropriate at this point. John Carter is involved and along with GWH has a long history of disruptive and unhelpful stoking the flames and side taking in this type of dispute. I encourage both of them to try to resolve disputes fairly and collegially instead of going after one side while failing to enforce the same standards on other parties (ie. their buddies). ] (]) 18:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::But there are reasonable and acceptable terms which could be used instead of "hypocrisy", and you have yet completely and utterly failed to even offer a weak justification of the word "outrageous", which in context makes it a even more pronounced attack. I have to assume by failing to address that point you are in effect acknowledging misconduct. If that is so, the reasonable action to take would be to correct the mistake by removing it, rather than offering a rather self-serving defense of yourself. ] (]) 19:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:When I quoted ChildofMidnight on his talk page:
	::''"That's one of the reasons I didn't think it was important for me to read up on all the discussions, articles, and issues involved."''
	:I to him that unless he reads discussions, articles and the issues involved, he's not really qualified to comment on those disputes and also he has not been asked to give input on these disputes it would be best if he stayed away from them. CoM, for your own good I would advise you to focus yourself on the articles you edit and the disputes related to those articles othewise what you're doing may be seen as disruption. It looks like you're ignoring all the diffs that Cirt has pointed out above which include comments about Redheylin's conduct from other editors. --] <sup>(]•])</sup> 19:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Per ] I have amended the subtitle on this thread. Will not edit war if the poster wishes to restore the original wording, but please consider that a calm and factual expression of one's opinion is more likely to be persuasive. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 19:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	===Requested block of ]===
	Please note that the above editor has engaged in further insults above after being given a final warning for blatant personal attacks. ] (]) 19:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Diffs please? It should be noted that John Carter is involved and has a long history of disruptive and confrontational behavior that I have pointed out to him.
	:The irony of this whole outrageous thread is that Redheylin has moved on to other projects and the diffs are days old. I have no idea why Cirt is continuing his disruptive campaigning and battlefield behavior. ] (]) 19:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''For the love of God/Buddha/FSM, yes''' - What this stems from is Cirt's issuance of warnings to ChildofMidnight months back, due to violations of Obama-article Arbcom restrictions. CoM has a long history in unrelated policy discussions of directing antagonism towards those that have had to use the stick against him in the past. ] (]) 19:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Tarc was warned for his personal attacks and incivility related to the Obama articles. He was recently blocked for edit warring on those pages and has been trolling my contributions for a long time inserting himself in discussions where he has not involvement to pursue a vendetta. If John Carter and George William Herbert cared even a tiny bit about civility and stopping the battlefield disruption engaged in by POV warriors they would have put a stop to Tarc's behavior long ago. ] (]) 19:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Distortions and half-truths are very unbecoming of you, CoM. That ArbCom case gave a mild reminder to myself and several others to be a bit less snippy in edit summaries, that is all. Yes, 1 24h block (shortened to "time served" after ~15 or so) in several years of editing. I'll match that up against your checkered log any day. Finally, I have AN/I watchlisted, and contribute here regularly, there is no stalking. When you name pops up in a header, I'll certainly pop in to see what's up and provide evidence of your past transgressions and egregiously bad behavior as warranted. I have not done anything wrong by participating here, so please stop with the misdirection. ] (]) 19:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*CoM - please explain . ]] 19:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	**Seems like a harmless edit conflict. ] (]) 19:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	***I didn't think edit conflicts happened that way, but fair enough. ]] 19:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	****If the editor simply copy-pastes the entire bottom window to the top, they can. Also, even when I've picked out my edits to paste into the new version, I can sometimes delete the last contribution (when the last contribution was SineBot). --<font color="#009000">]</font><font color="#03C03C">]</font><font color="#00A550">]</font> 19:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*****That isn't what happened here. The last edit was by john carter, but protonk's comment is the one deleted. I've seen this happen as well, but its always undoing the last edit, not some random comment.--] (]) 21:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	***They do happen that way quite often. Eventually liquidthreads will obviate the problem. ] (]) 19:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	****What Proton said -- I've done this sort of thing myself without an edit conflict notice. --] (]) 22:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' block of CoM or any other action to make him stop trying to solve people's disputes when he is not asked to give his input. Below he's asking for de-adminning of 3 admins. Only a block will solve this in my opinion, or a warning to stop. --] <sup>(]•])</sup> 19:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' block of CoM. Preferrably indefinite. ] (]) 19:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' permanent restriction of CoM to articles directly concerning food. CoM's presence on political and administrative pages is pure useless drama, and the same horns tooted over and over. ] (]) 20:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' indef block, '''Support''' block of any other time period other than indef. I understand your position CoM but you have to learn that you butt-in in '''every''' ANI conversation. Especially if you are not involved or you don't not know what is going on. Im reluctant to support an indef block as he has not done anything harmful to the encyclopedia though.--] <sup>]</sup> 19:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::If you're going to block for not knowing what's going on then you should start with yourself Coldplay. Your statement that I'm involved in "every" ANI thread is obviously ridiculous and false. I am very selective and most of my time is spent working on articles. I am well aware of the situation having been involved in the previous discussion and have tried to help the involved parties work through the dispute resolution process as the discussion on my talk page, the content noticeboard, and Redheylin's talk page indicate. It has been pointed out REPEATEDLY to Cirt that the dispute was over content and required no admin intervention. Cirt was asked REPEATEDLY to stop making bad faith accusations, yet he continues to go on the attack and to engage in disruption. I edit in good faith and I try to offer helpful comments. ] (]) 19:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Well I tried at least (watch him find a rollback mistake of mine and request my rollback be taken away) CoM If I were you I would tell the community that you are sorry and don't butt-in were your comments are not needed. PS im not an admin.--] <sup>]</sup> 19:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*:You wrote: ''"I understand your position CoM but you have to learn that you butt-in in '''every''' ANI conversation."''. Thats what I've been trying to tell CoM on his talk as nicely as I could but it looks like this will end up in some kind of action since he's not stopping and he escalates disputes in his attempts to resolve them. --] <sup>(]•])</sup> 19:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' - I believe a substantial block of COM is called for. Calling for de-adminning three respected admins because he disagrees with their positions is disruptive, over-the-top drama that gives Misplaced Pages a black eye. Enough! ]]] 19:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' - un-officially calling for the firing of 3 administrators, isn't worth an indef-block. ] (]) 21:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*:No one said it would be an indef block. The question is whether ''something'' should be done. This poll wont go anywhere though, like most consensus seeking ventures on WP, but hopefully this will bring a change in CoM and Redheylin's conduct because now they know that a number of editors would like to see that change. --] <sup>(]•])</sup> 22:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' - this is one of the best content editors on wikipedia. --] (]) 21:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:*Content creation is '''not''' a license to freely make personal attacks and harass. This is like saying it's right to pardon people like Bernie Maddoff simply because they're educated. -''']''' <sup><small>]</small></sup></span> 05:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	'''Endorse'''-he seems to call for desysops everytime he's in a tiff with an admin. Good content editor or not, disruptive behavior is uncalled for. ] (]) 21:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*I do not know who ChildofMidnight is or how s/he became involved, but I do know that others on the ANI page agreed with me (see the talk-page barnstar) that this editor has mediated with kindness, good faith, good humour and accuracy here, and it is getting ever harder to avoid the conclusion that it is these very qualities that have caused these present attacks.
	*In order to forestall any penalty - such as would be in my view an injustice brought about partly by myself - it is only decent that I offer this forum myself to resign for any decided period from wiki-editing. I know the worth of my contributions, I have nothing but contempt for anything and anyone that seeks to prevent or disrupt dedicated, good-faith editing in pursuit of narrow points of view, but if wikipedia cannot find a consensus of contributors able to see this matter in such a light, I prefer to resign rather than be responsible for the blocking of an editor who, without previous contact or article-involvement and without any obvious rancour towards any other party, but rather the opposite, has offered such a high standard of contribution on this page. Take this as '''oppose''', I '''suppose'''. ] (]) 21:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*:Going by what an editor and his buddies say about him on his talk page is just about the worst way one can form a judgment about an editor's actions. A better and more objective place to start would be ]. ] (]) 21:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::"Going by what an editor and his buddies say about him on his talk page is just about the worst way one can form a judgment about an editor's actions." - I said "this shows (and the present page shows) that I am not alone in the first impression I got". Somehow what I said must have got twisted in your mind - maybe it's something to do with Obama - I do not care. I am simply saying, I prefer to go myself than have another editor blocked for what seems to me clear-headed, mediative wikipedianism. And that stands: that is my offer. ] (]) 22:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' . Calling for excessive blocks against editors in this way is plain silly. This whole drama should be closed, there is nothing actually going on here, one editor disagrees with another editors standpoint and a bit of adult communication has occurred, but there has been nothing excessive here... (imo). ] (]) 21:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::'''Comment'''- I would only say that, as the originator of this thread, I never gave an indication of the time span of the block I proposed, and I actually have no real agreement with the lengthy periods proposed above. However, I can and do believe engaging in blatant personal attacks, as this editor has repeatedly done, on noticeboards no less, has to receive some degree of sanction. ] (]) 22:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::@Off2riorob. And what good will that solve anything? This only puts off the problem for later (sort of like how the US congress was putting off the healthcare debate for so long) and inevitably, we will have to deal with it. CoM's track record is strongly suggestive this will only happen again if it runs unchecked. -''']''' <sup><small>]</small></sup></span> 05:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Please no, everyone'''. This whole drama is not productive. Blocking one of our best creators of interesting new articles from namespace is not going to help the project, nor is continuing this whole bruhaha. Let's go back to working on articles, please. ] (]) 23:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*:Even the good editors (Betacommand, ScienceApologist, Ottava) don't get a free pass in the end for their uncivil disruptions. Giving a simply ''prolific'' editor a free pass for the same would be setting the bar quite a bit lower for acceptable behavior. ] (]) 04:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose block'''. While the editor was, on one occasion in the past, rather impolite to me, the editor: (a) respected my request to stop; (b) ]to try to be genuinely ] (although more success in this regard would be better); (c) is a very productive editor. Regarding the last point, it is my understanding that the issue of productivity vs. civility is an open ArbCom discussion (albeit regarding another editor) - until this issue is resolved (and policy updated), I think it fair to give productivity some weight in deliberation of blocks. I ''wish'' established editors, who should know better, would be nicer to other editors, but acknowledge that ] is really hard, sometimes - I'm ] that something other than blocks and bans can lead to improvements in general civility. Cheers, --] (]) 23:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''comment''' can someone point me to the policy page where it says if you're productive you're allowed to ignore other polices and guidelines?--] (]) 00:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:I was referring to . --] (]) 01:00, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::which is an extraordinary circumstance involving the second most productive editor last year, who is not under prior ArbCom sanctions, as CoM is. There are remarkable differences between the two. ] (]) 01:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::"not under prior ArbCom sanctions" - fair enough. My understanding from that case, however, was that ArbCom is considering ''some'' response to the appearance that <u>contributions can trump civility requirements</u>. I would like there to be some clear mandate on this (and I am in favor of rules applying equally to everyone) - but my view of reality is that the rules ''don't'' apply equally to everyone ''right now''. --] (]) 01:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::While ArbCom may be considering such sanctions in that particular case, that is not necessarily reason to believe that they would necessarily be extended beyond that case. Also, as that is an existing case, and likely to be resolved fairly soon, even an indefinite block, which as I have now said I would myself oppose, could very likely be shortened by that ruling. I really don't think it makes sense to not act on the basis of current problems because of something ArbCom is factually only considering in one other extant case. ] (]) 01:49, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Yes, block''' The whole point of a final warning is that if the user does not stop violating the policy after a final warning they get a block, that is why we call them final warnings. When we give a final warning and the disruptive behavior continues we need to follow through. Civility is simply not optional, and nobody has '''ever''' gotten consensus that it should not be blockable, or that contributors of content should get a free ride. I hope this discussion is read by the acting admin in light of policy and not as a head count. ] 01:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' idenfinitely blocking per ] on which the subject is listed and as he has largely been nice to me. Please note, I am not condoning incivility or personal attacks and strongly urge that all involved refrain from any such edits, but it seems unseemly for me to speak (write) against someone who likes basset hounds and has generally been nice to me. Sincerely, --]<sup>'']''</sup> 01:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::It's silly to ignore the obvious just because you like their userpage. This isn't a very productive edit. ]<sup>]</sup> 07:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	'''Comment''' Seriously guys, this has gotten way out of hand. Either we block him or we dont. I cant belive that Im going to say this but I agree with Tan here. This ] has got to stop.--] <sup>]</sup> 01:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*I tend to agree, particularly considering the somewhat unusual nature of several of the comments here. I note that people have repeatedly '''oppose'''d only an indefinite block, which I myself, the originator of this thread also oppose by the way, but that those other comments are made in such a way as to give the appearance of being opposed to any block. Like I said, I don't think an indefinite block is called for. I was myself thinking of something along the spectrum of 1 week to 1 month. If I had meant an indefinite block, I would have specified that. I did not state any terms because I did not think under the circumstances I should be the one to suggest them. I should also note that my own suggestions are not necessarily binding to the rest of you either. Perhaps in this way delimiting the terms we might be able to stop the extremist posts and actually reach some sort of solution to this matter. ] (]) 01:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	**Usually, where a duration is unstated, the assumption is indef, regardless of the type of sanction. ] (]) 07:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	<center><hr style="width:50%;" />
	:<span style="color:#FF4F00;">'''Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.'''</span><br /><small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,--] <sup>]</sup> 01:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)</small></center>
	'''Support''' 1 week block--] <sup>]</sup> 01:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Strongly oppose block''' ChildofMidnight is an excellent contributor to wikipedia. Just because a few people dislike some of his actions does not justify preventing this exceptionally fine editor from improving the encyclopedia. Misplaced Pages would be much worse off if the block happens. ] (]) 03:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*:So because I've made a few edits, you would be okay with me calling you an idiot or leveling other kinds of insults or attacks in your direction because I disagree with you?--] (]) 05:17, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*::I'd be okay with you saying those things, regardless of how many edits you had made in the past. I certainly wouldn't want you blocked or banned. ] (]) 06:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Support Block''' for a week. Clearly does not know how to handle dealing with other users. ]] 03:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Given the thread below, perhaps an ANI topic ban would be a more targeted solution to the problem. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 04:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Strongly Oppose''' block of ChildofMidnight. ChildofMidnight ] from respected mediator and admin Atama for his earlier attempt to mediate in this dispute. Half an hour later, he was repeatedly accused by Cirt of "interjecting" himself at ] and of taking Cirt's opponent's side. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 04:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*:Well, that kind of sums up ChildofMidnight's approach to editing; he can be productive and sugary sweet in one forum, and then positively vile and destructive only minutes later in another venue. This good hand/bad hand approach is the epitome of disruptive. ] (]) 04:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*::That is a bizarre comment, given that Atama's and Cirt's comments related to the same actions by CoM; what Atama praised as diplomacy, Cirt castigated as "interjecting". Go figure. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 04:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' Of his last 500 edits, I count 44 AN/I edits, with the majority of the remaineder being front page edits on numerous articles. Blocking an editor because you disagree with, at most, less than 10% of his activity is counter-productive and unnecessarily harsh. If CoM's AN/I contributions are a problem, then a reminder should suffice, especially for such a prodigious content creator. ] (]) 04:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Powerful Support''' Indef. - <sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 04:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Strong Endorse, unfortunately'''. Child of Midnight has been given , and yet is granted amnesty each time. CoM is undoubtedly familiar with our core policies and despite the ridiculous number of blocks, continues to repeatedly flaunt our policies, particularity when there are opportunities for drama mongering. Why, how many ANI threads bearing CoM's name are there? 10, 15, 20? It's almost as if this user is <u>above</u> Misplaced Pages's policies! We're here to build an encyclopedia, not make drama. Misplaced Pages is ''not'' meant to be, and was ''never'' meant to be a "4chan" or "Encyclopedia Drammatica". -''']''' <sup><small>]</small></sup></span> 05:21, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::In what way do CoM's edits make WP a 4chan or ED? I'm sorry, but I'm just not following your assertion. ] (]) 06:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Strong support'''. CoM can be lovely one moment and vile the next - the work he's done with a "lovely" persona should not exclude his vileness. ] (]) 10:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	'''Comment''' Perhaps a topic ban-like what MoP suggested-would be a better idea. Unless it is an obvious breech in policy (Editwaring, Uncivility ect), CoM cannot be engaged in ANI disscussions unless he himself is affected or under discussion.--] <sup>]</sup> 11:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' Actually all that is needed is that ANI discussions initiated by the user and ''specifically found meritless'' may then be followed by a one week block ... so this is an '''oppose''' as presented. Overkill is not warranted. ] (]) 13:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*:Initiated by who, CoM himself? As far as I can recall, he never has initiated a discussion in these parts. The disruption stems from his participation in the threads of others, most notably when he hounds admins who have taken action against him in the past. ] (]) 13:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	**:I think that is in reference to the now closed (as presumably baseless?) and collaposed request to have myself, Cirt, and Georgewilliamherbert desysoped. Granted, in this case I might be prejudiced, but I'm not sure I myself would necessaarily agree with the proposal in all instances, as it would potentially have a quite chilling effect on newcomers to the boards, but am not so sure that it might not be an appropriate option to have available for more experienced editors.
	{{hat}}
	===Requested desysop of Cirt, GWH, and John Carter===
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	<span style="display: inline;"><span style="display: table-cell; border: 6px solid #ddd; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -moz-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -webkit-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 0.5em; -moz-border-radius: 0.5em; -webkit-border-radius: 0.5em;">]</span></span>
	</p>
	<p style="text-align: center;">
	]?
	</p>
	</div>
	The extraordinarily disruptive and confrontational approach to editing taken by these admins is inconsistent with our civility policy and our core values. I think some sort of action may be warranted to rein in their behavior, especially in light of the loss of so many content contributors. ] (]) 19:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	*Anyone else? ] (]) 19:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::I've had some complaints about your comments in the past Protonk, but I haven't seen anything too outrageous from you recently. In fact I agreed with you on a subject recently, which came as something of a surprise to me (sorry I can't remember off the top of my head what it was). So keep up the good work. I'm optimistic that you may be on the right track going forward. ] (]) 19:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:CoM, I think you're going overboard now and perhaps need some kind of disciplinary action to make you realize you're on the wrong path. None of these admins has involved themselves in any objectionable behavior. --] <sup>(]•])</sup> 19:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::CoM is also failing to follow even basic etiquette now, such as well, notifying at least me of my being the subject to a thread here. My terms of desysoping are quite straightforward. I have said I will ask an uninvolved administrator to review the actions in question and go by their judgement. I am therefore asking ] to review the complaint. Nor did CoM give notice to Cirt of Georgewilliamherbert, or even give the latter of even using his full name. I have now myself rectifed that clear violation of etiquette, considering CoM apparently had no interest in doing so. ] (]) 19:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::You're not aware of this thread? You just left me a note about it on my talk page. Is this type of dishonest behavior allowed from admins? I don't think I'm going overboard at all. I think this type of outrageous conduct is why we are losing so many content contributors and why have so many disgruntled editors. This is a content dispute that was over and it's been reinflamed by Cirt's relentless battlefield campaigning. His accusations and assumptions of bad faith against me are almost as bad as Tarc's. ] (]) 19:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::It is '''basic courtesy'''' to at least notify people that you are requesting that they be desysoped. Although you had the time to post the above comment, you apparently didn't think it worth notifying either Cirt or Georgewilliamherbert of this request. I think I'll let your own choice of actions speak here. ] (]) 19:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Please refactor your false statement. You're certainly making my case for me that you're not well suited to possess administrative tools. ] (]) 19:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	A big ol' YAWN - directed at this entire thread. Can we all move on now? ] &#124; ] 19:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Wowsers, these are the most simultanious calls for indef blocks, blocks & deseysops, I've ever seen. ] (]) 19:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:In response to the allegation that I made a false statement, I note this quote from the top of the page: "You '''must notify''' any user that you discuss." CoM gave no such notice. I also note that Protonk has declined to review my actions. I therefore request any uninvolved admin seeing this thread to do so. I will abide by that decision. ] (]) 19:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::I already requested that you refactor your false statement once, and instead of doing so you now repeat it. I notified the editor who wasn't aware of the thread and I'm happy to provide a diff if necessary. Please refactor both your false statements pronto and cease your disruptive and civility violating behavior. ] (]) 19:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::I'm closing this entire thread. This has degenerated into mud-slinging, finger-pointing and bickering. Nothing useful is happening. ] &#124; ] 19:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::{{ec}} CoM, I can read times just as well as anyone. John Carter made his "false statement" at 19:16. You notified Georgewilliamherbert at . We all make mistakes and you'll find people will be less annoyed at you if you own up to them. --<font color="#009000">]</font><font color="#03C03C">]</font><font color="#00A550">]</font> 19:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:I haven't been involved at all here and don't know what it's about. But I just felt the need to comment on the demand for notification: I believe that courtesy only applies to editors who weren't already participating in a given thread. John appears to have been aware of this thread already, having commented within it. I don't really think admonishing CoM for not notifying him is warranted, and probably goes to show how much this thread has deteriorated into a slugfest on all sides. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 19:56, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	::(sorry, I conflicted with the closing -- feel free to move it into the collapse) ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 19:58, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	:::My statement was made on the basis of a new discussion taking place regarding me, and Cirt, and Georgewilliamherbert, specifically calling for us to be desysoped. It has been my understanding, perhaps erroneous, that if one were to start such a discussion, even as a subthread of a thread of which they were already aware, that, considering they themselves were ''not'' the subject of the prior thread, that the courtesy ruling extended there too. To my eyes, that would be the logical call in cases such as these, because even if one had commented on one section before, that does not mean that they would necessarily think to return to that page, particularly if they were involved in doing something else which might cause them to miss the discussion. If I am wrong in that, I apologize. And I do note, after the fact, that CoM did give Georgewilliamherbert some apparent indication that he was to be desysoped, although inclusion of that notice in such a literally parenthetical way made it at least to me unclear whether that were a warning of a request or a reference to a previous discussion calling for that desysoping. I apologize for my misunderstanding of that matter, but, if anyone does see this discussion, think it might be a good idea to amend the top of the page to indicate that notice should be given any time a new thread regarding an individual, or subthread in which they are themselves not clearly named as a party, would be a good idea. ] (]) 20:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::That'd be some major ]. Erring on the side of over-notification is of course the best idea, probably, but my point was that it wasn't so clearcut an underhanded or negligent tactic as to warrant being admonished, is all. It more seems like you were peeved for other reasons (probably understandable) and tacked this on. No offense intended, I might've reacted similarly in this situation. ] <span style="font:normal .9em Verdana">] 20:35, 2 Dec 2009 (UTC)</span>
	Closed due to nothing useful taking place. Start an RfC or go edit an article, one of the two. ] &#124; ] 19:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	: Actually, the first bit of it makes sense. Leave it for a bit to see if something good comes of it (Misplaced Pages might get a bit more drama but then the BBC hasn't suffered for that). <small><span style="border:2px solid #339999;">]</span></small> 20:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Agree with Garden, believe Tan jumped the gun on closing this thread. ]]] 20:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::When this finally fizzles out, please ping me with ''any'' useful resolutions that occur as a result of this bullshit. I won't hold my breath. ] &#124; ] 20:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::This particular subsection should be closed, yes. Quibbling about who notified who when is getting a bit pedantic, and a call by the subject of the ''previous'' section for desysops of admins he has disagreements with is beyond disruptive. More eyes should be on "Requested block of User:ChildofMidnight", which has not seen a single oppose (other than an oppose of just the indef part). ] (]) 21:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I think I have already made clear what I think of these editors and the way they use their admin powers. ] (]) 22:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::I agree with Tan. Let me know if something useful comes of this thread. ] (]) 22:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I'd suggest that what might come out of it that would be useful would be a system of sanctions against using ANI and other such pages as a means of disruption, so that wanton, disruptive, mischievous or POV-based actions would be subject to sanction without further action, and that this would particularly extend to admins who work in packs, who engage in baiting, side-taking, gang-buddyism and summary threats, with the ready possibility of sysop suspension at least. Otherwise these pages just become a sophisticated means of edit-warring that removes the debate from the subject of the article, which is clearly to the advantage of the weaker argument, and replaces it with lawyering, policy manipulation, dirty tricks and lynch-mob mentality, encouraging time-wasting argumentation at the expense of what we're supposedly here to do. To those who habitually represent this kind of sentiment as a "personal attack" - you know what to do. ] (]) 01:53, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	It's okay, CoM. When I was new I was way overly arrogant and headstrong. You'd be better if you take a deep breath... take a break for a few days.. realize no one is perfect, and assume good faith by just being nice and not jumping the gun to demand sysopping perfectly fine admins. k? :) ]] 11:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	{{hab}}
			Another thing I just noticed is that the article is special-protected: {{tq|"You must follow the bold-revert-discuss cycle if your change is reverted. You may not reinstate your edit until you post a talk page message discussing your edit and have waited 24 hours from the time of this talk page message."}} No such discussion was initiated on Gabbard's talk page --] (]) 00:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	===Proposed: Redheylin topic banned from Cirt===
			*I have blocked PoliticalPoint for a month for BLP violations, an escalation of their prior two-week edit warring block. I had originally intended to just p-block them from Gabbard but I am not convinced they understand the issue and that the problematic editing wouldn't just move to another page. Should they eventually request an unblock I think serious discussion sould happen w/r/t a a topic ban on BLPs or American Politics. ] ] 01:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	Preamble: I don't think anything remotely good is coming from this sequence of events.
			{{abot}}
			== User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating ] ==
	Proposal:
			*{{userlinks|Bgsu98}}
	:# {{user5|Redheylin}} has engaged in sustained disruption regarding Administrator Cirt. Redheylin is henceforth topic banned, interpreted broadly, from ] - may not respond to comments on Misplaced Pages, leave user talk page comments, mention, file ANI reports on, or revert article content changes by Cirt. Redheylin is not banned from common articles but must use dilligence to avoid responding to or confronting Cirt. This administrative sanction shall last for 90 days after enactment.
	:# Administrator ] is deemed an involved party and requested to disengage equally on-wiki from Redheylin, without finding of fault.
			Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.<br />
	* '''Proposed''' - ] (]) 03:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			I noticed an editor named {{u|Bgsu98}} who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by ] before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)<br />I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at ]. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought.
	* '''Oppose''' For posterity's sake, if this course of action is to be proposed then it should not be proposed by one of the parties named in the initial complaint. ] (]) 03:22, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::A. I'm not involved in the original complaint - Redheylin is upset with me for having intervened in the original complaint as an uninvolved administrator and attempting to resolve it; per ] this specifically does not cause an admin to become involved and disqualified from actions. I have nothing to do with the content dispute that initiated this.
	::B. Anyone, even involved parties, can propose a community response.
	::C. As a community proposal, I'm not using any administrator powers to do anything here, anyways.
	::Do you believe that this is truly not past the time at which we need to disengage the parties who are butting heads? Do you believe that anything but further disruption will follow from these two continuing to interact on-wiki? If you believe that their relationship will suddenly become collegial and productive, working towards consensus, that's a perfectly great reason to oppose. But I believe the alternative is not only likely but obviously already true.
	::Oppose if you want more of this - or you think less will come from another better approach, but not for that reason, please. Think it through. ] (]) 03:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose'''. The issue of disruption by {{user|Redheylin}} stems from his involvement in the topic of articles related to ] and the movement's deceased guru ]; it is not tied to any one editor and will likely persist under this remedy and shift to disruption of the articles engaging with other editors. ''']''' (]) 03:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' and remove Cirt's admin tools.--<b><font face="Rockwell" color="blue">]</font></b> <small><font face="Rockwell" color="gold">]</font></small> 03:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose'''. If there has been provocation, it is certainly not a one-way street. See ]. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 03:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::You seem to be indicating there that this goes back to bad blood between Cirt and you and others in the latest Arbcom case on Scientology... This does not make sense as a reason to avoid separating the parties now. If anything it seems to argue more strongly for it... ] (]) 04:04, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Wait... according to you're another of the Osho followers, Jayen. Is that true? ] (]) 04:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::How is this Arbcom case going to apply itself to this proposal of yours?--<b><font face="Rockwell" color="blue">]</font></b> <small><font face="Rockwell" color="gold">]</font></small> 04:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::Previously arbcom sanctioned editors showing up here without prior involvement, who are personally involved in the topic (Osho / ] ) which seems to actually underly the dispute, seems to provide strong evidence for Cirt's comment above that this is not tied to any editor but is a group activity by Rajneesh followers. ] (]) 04:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	{{ec}}
	::::George, to the best of my recollection, the only editors to have commented here and to have been parties to ] are Will Beback, Cirt, John Carter and I. Will and Cirt presented evidence against me at ARBSCI, and John Carter . John Carter and I were, more recently, in broad agreement at the Matisse arbcom case, and generally get along well. Will and I have our ups and downs, but he knows that I respect him as an editor, and he has been kind enough once or twice to say the same about me. This dispute is not about any fault lines left over from ARBSCI. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 04:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Are you denying the claims made in the ARBSCI case that you are a member of the Rajneesh movement? Arbcom made a finding of fact citing Rick Ross' claim to that effect, and your rejoinder to Ross did not acknowledge or deny that part of the claim. ] (]) 04:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Yes, I do deny that. For your information, I could cite you diffs where I have been accused of being a follower of Prem Rawat and of Scientology as well. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 04:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::In response to Jayen's comment about ARBSCI, there is one other editor from that case who has commented here: the filing party; myself. In order to avoid appearance of partiality I have commented only procedurally. It is an example which, in good faith, might be best if others also followed. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 06:43, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Cirt's a hardworking, detailed, resourceful article writer, as I've said many times. I for my part have done a great deal of work on "Indian" articles, including recategorising all Indian music, providing illustrations, maintaining a watchlist and rewriting quite a few major articles such as ], ], ], ], ] and a dozen more. Indian religion has its share of factions and fanaticisms, but the record shows thousands of my edits on dozens of articles and very little friction. I am sorry to say I have found it impossible to reach consensus with Cirt, who seems to find a "personal attack" in every issue raised. I am absolutely capable of conciliation but, like Jayen and every other editor I've seen working on this group of articles, find myself in cases like this time after time, find myself reverted, insulted or met with blank denial. Perhaps it is a failure of mine also - we talk straight and blunt where I come from and won't be bullied - but I can neither negotiate nor walk away from articles that, according to my lights, are being subjected to a strongly negative POV. From my own view, with my own wiki history, I'd welcome any kind of oversight or mediation that achieved balanced articles, constantly improving by consensus. I am sorry, though, but I cannot perceive myself as solely to blame for this affair, and all the admins of wiki and all the blocks they can block cannot change that. However, if a way can be found to achieve harmony without abandoning the said articles to a single editor's viewpoint, I think you'll find me very tractable indeed, because I believe in what I am doing just as much as the other guy. When we are both working for the same goal.... so I'd ask for a more balanced summary of this affair, and, if I show impatience or even contempt, I apologise: I do not mean any offence, I do not have any POV to push, I just want a better wiki and a modicum of civility on the side. Thanks. ] (]) 04:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''': Redheylin has been saying things (diffs above are evidence) that a number of people have objected to. Cirt on the other hand has never engaged in personal attacks or undesirable behavior as far as I know for the little time I've known him. Thats why Cirt was able to collect diffs as evidence against Redheylin while I bet no one can do the same for Cirt. I came new into this whole Osho related business only a few days ago. I was impressed by Cirt's ''constant'' patience while dealing with Redheylin and and even Jayen in the old days (). I suggest we give 2 or 3 more weeks to Redheylin and see if things are still the same as before. If they are, then it would be time to file an RfC and go from there. Cirt should not be punished by disallowing him to talk to Redheylin about Osho-related articles because they both edit these articles. Its Redheylin who has to improve his conduct. Red its simple: stay focused on the article, not the editor. See how Cirt does it. People have been editing controversy related articles with differing viewpoints for a long time and it can be done. --] <sup>(]•])</sup> 05:17, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' sanction as presented. This is not about Cirt and Redheylin, but about Rajneesh. Any attempt to institute this ban would be counterproductive, because it would, basically, be completely dependent on the level of Cirt's activity involving that content at any given time. There are ways to deal effectively with matters like this. One is to call in other editors who deal with religion. I think I got involved because of Cirt's doing that, myself being an active religion editor. Should that fail, in all honesty, either an RfC or formal mediation would have a much better chance of effectiveness, and, with any luck, much less rancor. "Straight and blunt speaking" and its equivalents are as often as not used as euphemisms for other things which have policy or guideline pages named after them. Cirt has probably been subjected to more harrasment than most any of us for his contributions to wikipedia, includinhg off-wiki harrassment, and I can and do understand how it might give him, at times, a quick trigger finger. I'm not saying this is one of those times, however. I haven't reviewed the matter to that degree. In all honesty, I think the best approach in this instance would be for both to disengage for a while, maybe file an RfC or mediation on whatever they decide the core disagreement is, and go on from there. ] (]) 14:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			I should note that {{u|Bgsu98}} doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated ] (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (]). One can really wonder why he does this.
	::Re: Jayen's '''"Yes, I do deny that"''', why then do you still use your sanyassin title? how come you don't make a statement about this on your user page (like ). From information I see online, you left the movement following a leadership rift, (Keerti V Osho Foundation International?) can you clarify this for us? I think it would be helpful to know exactly where you stand on this matter. ] (]) 14:20, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::How is this question relevant to the thread itself, please? If it is not directly relevant, would it be asking too much to have the discussion taken elsewhere? ] (]) 15:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			P.S. More information is here: ]. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of ]. It seems that no one acted on this change until {{u|Bgsu98}} came.
	== Dubious edits ==
			P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time.
	{{2O|1=Need to have the ethnicity-related claims checked by other editors <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 21:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC)}}
	{{resolved|simple content dispute. ] <small>(])</small> 18:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)}}
	<small>Highly suggesting further evaluation before true resolution. <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 21:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC)</small>
	{{Unresolved|1=I fear some racial concerns, honestly. Let's run this a bit more since that would be significant... <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 19:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)}}
			P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while {{u|Bgsu98}} has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (). --] (]) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @] or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @] who is nominating based on community consensus. ] ] 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	Today, in ], ] has started to make some dubious and unexplained edits, which I cannot revert all the time. This user has been accused of suckpuppetry and has been blocked several times in the past for his edits in Macedonia-related articles. Could anyone help? - ] (]) 16:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			::I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:And you shouldn't continue reverting. You've already reverted 4 times in violation of ] and ] and this is not one of the exception cases. ] <small>(])</small> 17:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			::"''However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules.''"<br />— They don't meet ], but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet ]. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require ], so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.<br />(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --] (]) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	Only two of my edits were reversions. And this is what I asked you to do, to help with his edits. - ] (]) 17:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			::{{re|Star Mississippi|Liz}} A ], a deletion review? Is it maybe possible to undelete "]" (])? Cause I was searching for sources for ] and found something like a short biography of hers, two paragraphs long.<br />Here: .<br />And again, it was {{u|Bgsu98}} who nominated the article back in May. And he was told, I'm quoting ]: "''There are a whole bunch of similarly deficient nominations. Really, such blanket nominations without evidence of WP:BEFORE and consideration of WP:ATD should be all procedurally kept as WP:SKCRIT#3 given lack of a valid deletion rationale''." --] (]) 23:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Nope - you had 4: . This is a simple content dispute. Please seek ] and stop edit warring. ] <small>(])</small> 18:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			::After looking at ], I think no one will say that I was incorrect about how people vote at AfD. There's even a comment like this: "WP:NSKATE lists some very clear criteria for inclusion, which this article does not meet." And then a more experienced user noted that you should actually search for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but no one actually searched and the article was deleted. --] (]) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	What was the solution exactly? - ] (]) 19:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			:: I have also found an interview with ]: . Yes, it is an interview, but there an editorial paragraph about her (an introductiion). There also a short paragraph here → . Not much, but considering she competed almost 20 years ago... --] (]) 00:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes @] you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @] provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. ] ] 14:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes @] you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @] provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. ] ] 14:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Okay. --] (]) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			: This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. ] ] 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates ], otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no ] research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".<br />Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping {{u|BeanieFan11}} and {{u|Doczilla}}. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --] (]) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::When closing one AfD, I made some observations about that day's many AfDs and noted in that one close regarding Bgsu98: "The nominator's burst of dozens of nominations within half an hour failed to stimulate any discussion about many of them." In my meager opinion, the massive number of rapid deletion nominations rather strongly might suggest, at the very least, a lack of due diligence regarding each and a likely violation of WP:BEFORE. ] <sub>]</sub> 07:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:] claims to be polite, yet wrote : ''"random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom"''. Pinging ] who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time.
			:He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From ]: ''"By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated ] 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"''
			:I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. ] seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. ] ] 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*C'mon, ], civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*:I apologize, ]; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. ] ] 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*Here's my take, ]. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @] to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @] I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @] is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @] and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @] ] (]) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*::Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while {{u|Bgsu98}} directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)<br />Also, a note to admins: Can it be that {{u|Bgsu98}} finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".<br />And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --] (]) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::@] I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @] pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @], making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @]'s comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. ] (]) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::: I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --] (]) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::: Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::: According to , "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::::@]
			:::*:::::Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people."
			:::*:::::No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion.
			:::*:::::If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep.
			:::*:::::I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon.
			:::*:::::All the best to everyone involved. ] (]) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::] wrote the following in his original complaint: ''”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.”'' I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met ], the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. ] ] 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*::::OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --] (]) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...<p>(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.<p>(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's ''exactly'' the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.<p>(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. ] 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --] (]) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::“Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. ] ] 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria ({{tq|What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.}}), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. —
			:] (]) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a ]. ] (]) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ] (]) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			* I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often ''really'' poor; many are simply {{tq|Non-notable figure skater}}, which doesn't say much of anything. ] (]) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. ] ] 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::And @], you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at ]. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --] (]) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide ] for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created '''seventeen years ago''' -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. ] 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::: The nominator has agreed to slow down, so the point is kind of moot, but I still wanted to make clear: Ravenswing, 45 AFDs rapidly is ridiculous, especially when next-to-no-BEFORE is done and there previously was no indication of stopping – remember that there's only a few editors in the topic area – ''and'' many of these, which are notable, require more than simple Google searches to find the coverage that demonstrates notability (i.e., for many, the coverage would be in places such as difficult-to-find offline newspapers in foreign languages) – making so many nominations rapidly without appropriate searches will inevitably result in some truly notable ones being deleted due to the lack of effort. While ''you'' may not care about the stubs, others do, and simply because the two editors who drive-by to the nom and say "Delete per above" didn't find coverage absolutely does not equate to the subject being confirmed non-notable. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Actually, I have attempted to do something yesterday. I voted and commented on two nominations. ("]" and "]".) Cause these two are Russian figure skaters, and I know they are famous enough. Immediately a user came and wholesale dismissed all the sources I found. I don't really want to play that game, it's too tiresome. I have found another source for Alexandra Ievleva just now. Let's see what the outcome will be.<br />But really, I can't do it anymore. Maybe if these were articles I created, I would invest into searching for sources. Now, I just tried a little bit and saw that some people really want to delete these articles for whatever reason. There are a few people actually searching for sources at some nominations, but mostly it's just that old "you go and provide third-party reliable sources independent of the subject, so I can look at them and dismiss them" game.<br />Okay, people will say I am the bad person here, but I have actually tried to save a couple of articles. I don't understand why people so eagerly want to delete articles than can actually be kept. (Okay, there are mostly interviews and short news about the figure skaters placing here and there or missing some events, but those sources are reliable enough. And one can actually take the sources into account and leave the articles be.)<br />By the way, I have tried searching on what was once ], but the news search doesn't work anymore. (.) There's nothing prior to 2024 when Yandex sold its assets including the news engine. And I can remember when the list of news articles there went back to 2003 or so... --] (]) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::What I’m reading is that you don’t like how AfD works, and there hasn’t been any departure from normal processes. ANI is not the appropriate venue to discuss these issues. ] (]) 10:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I'm sorry if this looks like a ramble. These were initially two or three separate replies. --] (]) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{Od}} ...{{Tpq|editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes}}. Just curious if you or anyone else honestly believes that the opinions of these editors takes priority over the view held in the real world that six million articles falls substantially short of "the sum of all human knowledge". contained the following statement: "According to one estimate, the sum of human knowledge would require 104 million articles". I know some of you are in serious denial and will try to suppress this as a result, but I'm gonna keep saying it anyway. We don't have the sum of all human knowledge, nor are we trying to achieve it. At best, we're the sum of what Google and legacy media has spoon-fed you today within the past X number of years.]/]/] (posted 00:37, January 9, 2025 UTC)
			:RadioKAOS, I'm not going to argue about whose "view takes priority" in the area of the sum of human knowledge but in an AFD discussion, decisions are made by determining the consensus of the editors who bothered to show up and present compelling policy-based arguments. That is typically editors who are active on Misplaced Pages and have an opinion about an article, not any scholar coming up with estimates on the necessary number of articles we should have. How many AFDs do you participate in on a regular basis? And there is no one here that who will attempt to "suppress" your argument. As long as you are not personally attacking any editors, I think you are free to have whatever opinions you do have about this project. No penalty. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{re|Liz}} The problem is that these editors who "bother to show up" don't equally represent the community. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are some people who are mainly active on AfD and who act as "gatekeepers".<br />A normal editor can easily not notice when a page is nominated for deletion, but the AfD regulars will come and vote "delete".<br />Also, I wonder how it happened that the NSKATE guidelines were changed so drastically. I think I have found a discussion about that but I am not sure. A user who was tired of people voting "keep per ]", proposed to get rid of the "Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports)" completely. And then there was a discussion with around 70 people attending. But for some reason at least some sports got spared the worst fate (or got out intact), while figure skating was "destroyed". Moreover, the ] revision history shows signs of edit warring. So it is just possible that the "deletionists" were the most active/agressive and they won. Some sports wikiprojects defended their sports, and some like WikiProject Figure skating weren't active at the time and didn't do anything. --] (]) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I am not an AfD regular, and what happens there scares me. When I commented, people just bombarded me with "This is not a third-party reliable source independent of the subject", and it didn't look to me like they even knew what "third-party" was. (I could swear my source was third-party and reliable and independent, but they said it was not and bombarded me with some random links to the WP space.) --] (]) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:(nods) Heck, "some authority" came up with canards such as that we all ought to take 10,000 steps a day, drink eight glasses of water a day, and that our basal body temps are all 98.6. I likewise decline to bow before the suspect, threadbare wisdom of "one estimate" that we need 104,000,000 articles ... speaking of serious denial. (grins) ] 07:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: {{re|Ravenswing}}, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.<br />And when I found another source, you said that there were "3 sentences" while there were actually 7.<br />I've looked at your contributions, you don't look like someone who can read Russian or has any interest in figure skating. So why are you doing this? (Okay, you can have the articles, you won.) --] (]) 16:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Please be careful with the ], Moscow Connection. --] 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Okay. --] (]) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::My 2 cents. In my experience, Bgsu clearly does not conduct BEFORE searches (and seems proud of it), ignores actual coverage of the subjects (even when present in the articles), mass nominates batches of articles (50 in 30 minutes is a hilarious example), consistently fails to adhere to AGF, quickly re-nominates articles when the result is not to their liking, inaccurately summarizes examples of SIGCOV when they are provided in discussions, and tops it off by clearing their XfD logs. ] (]) 21:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::: That's a significant number of evidence-free aspersions you're casting, would you like to evidence them? Incidentally, mass-nominating articles isn't necessarily an issue; I have done it in the past but I still examined each article before nominating them in one batch. ] 21:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I do not wish to dig through hundreds of AfDs, no. Just providing what I've gathered in my experience. And I disagree that 50 AfDs in half an hour is not an issue.
			:::::::Here is one example of the types of responses you can expect to get when you provide SIGCOV in one of his discussions: {{tq|Nobody is going to add anything to this article. The same people pop up on these AFD's, squawk about how someone having their picture taken for their local newspaper qualifies as "significant coverage", and then the article is left in the same crappy condition it was when we started.}} ] (]) 21:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::And ] is an example of the nom wholly ignoring GNG and insisting on using deprecated NSPORTS guidelines ''after'' SIGCOV was added to the article. Dozens and dozens of more examples. ] (]) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::] example of ignoring SIGCOV ''already present'' in the article. ] (]) 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::{{Ping|GiantSnowman}} {{Ping|Black Kite}} ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] more examples, all within a week of eachother and many with SIGCOV already present in the article. ] (]) 21:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::] is an example from two days ago where they nominated a skater who finished top 4 at the World Championships because they assumed the sources in the article were the only sources available on the subject. ] (]) 22:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::OK this AFD, coupled with the historical ones, is very concerning. I understand that not every editor is going to be able to find every source, but it appears that Bgsu98 does not even bother looking. I would support a topic ban from AFDs. ]] 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::] and ] is an example of four users expressing their concerns about BEFORE searches and their misunderstanding of notability policies. More recently, concerns were raised ] and , although bgsu deleted the latter from their talk page with the message {{tq|Stay off my talk page. You have some nerve using the term “good will” considering your appalling behavior.}} ] (]) 22:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::And here are ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] examples of nom ignoring the concept of GNG and/or entirely disregarding SIGCOV already present in the article. As Liz notes ], close to 100 articles were deleted through PROD before I was able to contest them. Many of these that I contested and were later kept in AfDs with clear GNG passes are present among the examples I've given. ] (]) 22:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Thanks - anything more recent than May 2024? ]] 22:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::It would be helpful if you could provide some examples of a) a number of nominations in a short period of time and b) several AFDs where the rationale is deeply flawed. ]] 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::: If you go to 10 May 2024 , you get exactly '''50''' nominations in 30 minutes. A good number of those were kept per . ] (]) 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Great, thanks - see above, I think we need an AFD topic ban. ]] 22:04, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Well, let's start with that I'm a frequent participant at ANI, and I no more "came here to defend" anyone than any other editor who's chimed in here. I dismissed those sources wholesale because I burned some time to look over each and every one of them (as did more than one editor), and found that ] provided the "significant coverage" in detail to the subjects that the GNG requires. As it happens, I have edited skating articles in the past -- you're not claiming to have truly gone through my whole twenty-year contribution history, are you?<p>So why am I doing this? Perhaps it's strange to you that anyone could act out of a dispassionate wish to uphold Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, instead of out of partisan motives, but you'll find that most ANI regulars do just that. ] 21:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I've participated in a lot of these AfDs, I believe mostly !voting delete, and I've gotta say I am not happy to see it implied that AfD participants were blindly going along with Bgsu. I guarantee that I perform thorough searches on every single AfD I !vote it, ''especially'' these mass-noms with essentially no rationale. Bgsu's noms are, for better or worse, fairly accurate and generally result in the deletion of articles that should be deleted. ''However'', I have seen several examples of incivility and assuming bad faith from this user (although I have experienced neither myself) and I agree that the sheer quantity of nominations does not promote a healthy level of community input. The individual noms are generally okay, but mass noms like ], tried participating in, and gave up on can be a little overwhelming. I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for. ] </span>]] 22:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I did say a few days ago I wasn't going to engage in this discussion any further but since I keep getting notifications about it I figured I'd weigh in as the conversation seems to have gone in a totally different direction. As @] and others have pointed out I too am not happy that it is being implied that people who voted in these AFDs are blindly following @] without doing any independent research. I refuted this on the figure skating talk page when this all started and on this page. Also, as has been previously pointed out by other editors, this particular discussion began with @] basically not liking the rules on significant coverage and then coming to this forum to seek retribution against @]. Now it seems that their improper use of this forum, ref bombing of articles and general complaining that they don't like something and how unfair it is in their opinion, may actually lead to them getting what they want. This sets a very poor precedent that if you don't like something on Misplaced Pages and you jump up and down and wail about it enough you can get your way. Yes @] probably nominates too many similar articles at one time but they have agreed to slow down now, and yes they have nominated articles for AFD that have then been kept because significant coverage was found, but they have also nominated a lot of articles which have not been found to have significant coverage and have subsequently been deleted following the due, consensus based procedure and closed as such by an admin. @] is already seeking to have articles which have been deleted following AFDs unilaterally reopened. If you now sanction @] we may as well just give Jimmy Wales a call and ask him to hand over Misplaced Pages to the whims and wants of @] ] (]) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*I haven't asked anybody to give Misplaced Pages over to me. What do you mean by "unilaterally reopened"? If you are refering to me asking {{u|Star Mississippi}} to undelete the "]" article, what's wrong with it? It was deleted without a proper Google search, and I have found some sources for her. Just look at ]. At the very end, a user that goes by the name of {{u|Kvng}}, noticed: {{tq|No one in this discussion (including myself) has mentioned anything about searching for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG}}, but that was all, no one did anything. You and another user seem to have claimed here that you do a proper search on every Bgsu98's nomination, but I don't see you on that AfD page.<br />You really sound like you think I'm doing something awful in my attempt to rescue an article. Come on, she's not someone terrible who wants to promote herself on Misplaced Pages or something. She's just a fairly famous figure skater. You don't need to defend Misplaced Pages from her. --] (]) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*I've decided to save "]" (]) and I've already found a couple of dozen articles talking about her. Yes, maybe the others will say those are mostly interviews and the Women's Sport website is not good enough, but I have found lots and lots about her! I don't think you or Bgsu98 would be able to do that cause you don't read Russian and don't know how to search (I tried to add different additional key words, and every time I found something new). --] (]) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:1 you don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what, 2 now you say I "don't know how to search" which is yet another unfounded suggestion that I don't make any effort before giving opinions on AFDs, 3 you don't know what searches were done on Lilia Biktagirova and neither do I, 4 I wasn't involved in that discussion and I try to focus more on adding to articles then deleting them, 5 my point was, and is, you don't like the rules so you have launched a campaign of complaining to try to get your way instead of going through the proper channels and seeking to get consensus to alter said rules. Frankly I'm tired of this and of you belittling everyone else as if you are the only person who knows what is right and are somehow able to read the minds and intentions of everyone else. Go ahead and, as you put it, "save" your Russian skaters. I genuinely hope you do and that the articles are filled with interesting and well-sourced information. That's the aim of Misplaced Pages to inform the population about things worth knowing. ] (]) 00:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:*"{{tq|You don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what}}"<br />— What I do is called ]. What you just did by claiming you can read Martian, I honestly don't know.<br />I've started this discussion because I saw the user's 45 nominations at ] and that scared me a lot. --] (]) 01:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:*:It's called ironic humour and, with everything going on in the world right now, if a Misplaced Pages AFD scared you a lot then you are obviously in the very fortunate position to have so few worries. Anyway I'm moving on to spend my time more productively. I sincerely wish you the best in your endeavours. ] (]) 01:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**I appreciate your input and insight. As I told ] earlier, I promised to slow down on nominations, and in fact, I had decided that I wouldn't even entertain the idea of additional nominations until the ones already in the system work their way through.<br>I can also promise to strive to be more thorough in researching these potential nominations and provide more detailed rationales in the future. I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two! ] ] 23:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			**20 nominations per day is 7300 per year. The limit should be more like 0. (And if it is decided to be 1 or something like that, Bgsu98 will have to demonstrate that he has searched for sources every time. I prefer 0, naturally.) --] (]) 00:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:While I do not know whether @] should be restricted from AfD as I haven't been able to go into the weeds on this, I disagree with {{tq|I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for.}} @]. No editor should be nominating 20 articles per day. That's unsustainable for AfD participants, clerks or closers. We do not have the editor volume to assess that many nominations from one nominator. ] ] 00:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Of note. User JTtheOG is canvassing apparent like-minded editors to this discussion, and . ] (]) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:They are not like-minded actually. In fact, both had previously expressed they disagreed with my initial assertions, which I had not yet provided evidence for. I was notifying them of examples being provided here of previously unsubstantiated aspersions. ] (]) 23:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::"As per previous discussions..." I love hearing that ] is having discussions about me with other users, but has never once attempted to communicate directly to me. (Snide comments in AFD's don't count as broaching conversation.) ] ] 00:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			** If even that's true, no none came. (No one of the whole two.) And Bgsu98 did the same by pinging his like-minded AfD colleague. (He pinged him immediately.) --] (]) 00:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			* As a fellow ] participant, and without having gone over the particular cases, I am normally a rather deletion-oriented editor but am an inclusionist for skating specifically as sources are not as online on this topic as usual, and often in foreign languages, so I am not usually in favor of deleting a skater's article unless we really do exhaust all possible sources of notability. I do request that {{ping|Bgsu98}} convene a broader discussion over notability as I also do disagree with the current guidelines, but even without that a discussion is warranted. Even if a mass deletion ''is'' warranted, it should be handled in one mass AfD, not a gazillion separate ones.--] ] 01:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I came across this randomly in my watchlist.. can I recommend ''everyone'' take a step back and focus on the issue at hand? Currently, ] states the following: {{tq|Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability: The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects.}} So, I'd ask {{ping|Moscow Connection}} to please consider whether their views on BEFORE are in line with what it actually says. I appreciate that MC states many of these nominated articles are for non-English speaking and in some cases non-Western world skaters, and so it may not be possible to find many of the potential sources in an English language Google search.{{pb}}But MC, can you identify any deletion nominations for which there were sources that could be found in any of the following: ''a normal Google search'', or a ''Google Books search'', or a ''Google News search'', or a ''Google News archive search''? If you can identify such, please provide the deletion discussion, and a link or other method of showing us how you came across the sources on one of those searches. If you can't, then it sounds like your argument is more for '''expanding ] to require non-English language searches for non-English subjects'''. I take no strong view on whether it would be a good idea - I think that BEFORE should certainly ''recommend'' more far reaching searches for subjects who may not be satisfied by a Google search.. but ''required''? Not everyone knows how to use other search engines, and they may not even know what terms to use (or be able to type them easily). And that doesn't even begin to touch the big problem with Google - Google results (if you're logged in, at least), are '''significantly''' based on your search history, and if you use Google Chrome browser (on mobile or PC), or the Android OS, they are also based on your usage of those platforms (such as websites visited, apps used, etc). So it's entirely possible that MC searching Google may see a result on the first page or two that someone else searching Google would not have seen on the first couple pages at all.{{pb}}Regardless, that's an argument/discussion to be had on another page (likely ]). Since this all seems to be a misconstruing of BEFORE by MC, and assuming everyone involved tones down the rhetoric, I'd recommend this move towards a reminder to MC that BEFORE, as it stands now, does '''not''' require anything beyond a Google (and Google News and Google Books) to be searched, and until that changes, the mere fact sources exist on other search engines does not constitute a violation of BEFORE unless there is evidence they would've been found through those search means. And I recommend that MC (or anyone, really) starts a discussion ''at the appropriate place'' if they think changes to BEFORE are necessary. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 01:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			** I read this and tried to search some names from AfD on Google Books. A search for ]'s name definitely returns something non-trivial: ("Nicole Nönnig kehrte allerdings nach kurzer Pause zurück . Mit Matthias Bleyer bildete sie ein Paar , das 2003 sogar internationale Wettbewerbe bestritt . Die Schlittschuhe haben Nicole und Matthias inzwischen jedoch an den Nagel ..."). --] (]) 01:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:I'll leave this to others to discuss, but this is the type of "evidence" you would be expected to produce to show that the user did not comply with BEFORE. That said, one instance of mention in a book does not meet ], so unless you can show that there are ''multiple'' instances of ''significant'' coverage in reliable sources that would've been found on a BEFORE, then it still doesn't mean that the user did not do a valid BEFORE. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 01:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: Here's a link to the book: . (I've tried and tried, but I don't know how to add "bks" to the Google Books search URL.) --] (]) 01:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: A search for "李宣潼" on Google News returned this article: and a couple more. The one I linked looks very solid, it is a full-fledged biography. (The AfD discussion is here: ]. As usual, the rationale is: {{tq|Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements.}}) --] (]) 02:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: And one more article → about Li Xuantong and her partner ] (also nominated for deletion). It's like an article + interview, looks "massive". --] (]) 02:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I know the entire thing is a bit of a long read, but I would like to note that Bgsu98's tendency to make XFDs without any regard for GNG/BASIC - even for those where GNG/BASIC is met (], ], ]) - dates back to ]. In fact, last year ] (which they then deleted) that this issue was creating more work for editors, but this is still continuing as of late. There seems to be an IDHT issue with ]. ]@] 02:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Potential company editing? ==
	It would appear to me that there is more at work here than some strange edits.
			{{atop|1=Closing by OP request. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	This "does" look like a normal content dispute. What content? ...I have no idea. The first "revert" is a grammar/syntax correction. At least it looks like that. There's no reason to not think it's just that. Entirely normal. On this, I can't see how you could give a 3RR violation to Sthenel as has been suggested. If anyone would like to make the case that to AN3 on that, I guess I can't stop you. Ironically, that was minor, but ] marked most all his edits as minor. Unusual when actually changing things, yes?
			*{{userlinks|Bouchra Filali}}
	The word in question at start was "region" at start. As to why someone would place a {{tl|fact}} next to several things in the lead sentence and repeatedly garble and mess up the line mentioning disambiguation, I don't know. Then I ran into ''' at the article talk page''' from nearly a day ago. To summarize-- this editor is literally asking for proof of existence of these persons. As in, are they people? Toying around with "region" is an attempt to remove the idea of the persons bring from that land, and replace with the fact that some people accidentally happen to live in a same place and they may or may not share some common traits. Trying to strip any persons of their concept of 'homeland' has, well, not been looked upon favorably here or in history. ] reverted an edit that made the article subject look like ]. Fair. Edits get weirder with insertions of {{tl|fact}} placed next to statements of ethnicity. Apparently "are a regional population group of ethnic Greeks" needs . A bit more, and one more revert. Both users are at 3RR, stop.
			*{{articlelinks|Djellaba}}
			The user ] uploaded ] to the page ]. They share a name with a fashion company and seem to have replaced the original image on the article with a product from their company (see revision 1268097124]). I reverted their edit and warned them, but due to my concern, and following advice from an administrator on the wikimedia community discord, I am reporting this here as well. I have also asked for advice on what to do with the commons file, and will be filing any necessary reports there. ] 04:49, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:They have only made one edit on this project which was adding an image to an article, it looks like they uploaded the image on the Commons. Have you tried talking about your issues with them on their Commons user talk page, ]? This doesn't seem like it's a problem for the English Misplaced Pages. We don't even know if they'll be back to make a second edit. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I asked the commons folks on discord and it seems that, since they uploaded an image that they own, all is well. I have to admit that I was a little hasty here, I've never used this noticeboard before. Feel free to close this if you feel there is nothing more to discuss, I'll monitor the user in question. ] 06:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User:Smm380 and logged out editing ==
	The talk and edit style have the MO of the indefinitely blocked ] who has an endless history of edits regarding Greece and Macedonia which came to a peak where that string of edits would appear to be literally stripping the ethnicity off of people. This seems to have started the process toward blocking. I reverted the page to last version before this all. No content from other users were lost; article body was not changed. I've exhausted all I can do, and though you can leave me a message for questions I think I covered everything (just in shortened form.
			*{{userlinks|Smm380}}
	This needs a serious looking over. Help, please. <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 21:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC) -- Few edits: <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 22:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			*{{IPlinks|195.238.112.0/20}}
			I have this editor twice about logged out editing because they are evidently editing the article ] both logged in and as an IP. This makes tracking their edits more difficult since they have made hundreds altogether in recent months (and they are only focused on this specific article). The IP edits seem to come from ] (at least most of them) and they are often made shortly before/after Smm380 decides to log back in. See for example edit by Smm380 and edit by the IP a few minutes later regarding the same section. This is now especially a problem because they are deciding to make as an IP.
			In general, they have not listened to prior warnings. I have given them multiple warnings about adding unsourced text, but they are still continuing to unsourced text without including citations first. But they have not responded to any of my warnings or explained why they are still doing this. ] (]) 09:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Pyraechmes has repeatedly asked to be unblocked, most recently asking in October to be allowed back. But the Alex Makedon account has been around since 2007, longer than Pyraechmes. I can't imagine that an editor would create a sock, have the sock banned, then have the sock beg to be unbanned while their original account remains free to edit. That doesn't make sesnse.
			:I noticed the concerns raised regarding edits made both from my account and an IP address, and I’d like to clarify that this was neither intentional nor malicious. I simply forgot to log into my account while making those edits.
	:As to the racism question, I just don't see it. Oddness, maybe their edits aren't great, but it still seems like a content dispute and I agree with Toddst1 that this needs to be hashed out through ], not administrator intervention. -- ''']'''] 00:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			:I apologize if this caused any confusion. My sole intention was to improve content related to Ukrainian history, a topic I am deeply passionate about.
	*No. I'm familiar with Alex Makedon's editing pattern and he has no love for Greeks, trust me. This really was flagrant trolling on his part, ] taken to extremes. Such nationalistic flaming is not acceptable: under ] (he must be sick of the sight of that case) he's blocked (yet again, this is something like his 7th block on 2 accounts?) for 1 month, and topic-banned for 3 months from all Balkans-related articles.
			:Regarding the delayed response to your messages, I sincerely apologize. I hadn’t noticed the notifications until recently, as I was unfamiliar with how Misplaced Pages’s messaging system works. Now that I understand it better, I’ll ensure to respond more promptly in the future.
			:I truly appreciate the valuable work you do to maintain the quality and reliability of Misplaced Pages. I will make sure to contribute responsibly and stay logged in during my future edits. ] (]) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Another not here IP ==
	*Sthenel, I'm going to let this one slide. You were reverting edits of truly terrible quality, yes, but in the future please report such disruption before you run up 4 reverts. This is the only warning you will get. Happens again, and I ''will'' block you and put you on revert parole. Understood? ] (]) 01:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	: Thank you Moreschi for clearing things up before I had to try and explain the whole of the situation for everybody. It would have taken some time to do so. Datheisen, or anyone else interested can check out the history of ] and the naming convention ] that was upgraded from what was previously a centralized discussion page. Fortunately the situation is stabilized now, not thanks to edits like the ones from Alex Makedon. ] <sup>]</sup>
			{{User|2601:18C:8183:D410:1D8C:39C9:DCEE:1166}} is altering another users posts to insert political commentary ] as well as making PA's, with a clear statement they do not intend to stop ], and edit warring over it as well. ] (]) 14:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::'''just to set the record straight:'''
	::*Pyraechmes was on the ''other side'' of the argument than Alex Makedon. His disruptive edits were not about denying the subject of the article but rather about the ''purity'' of the article. He was picking up whether certain people should be presented in the article if they weren't of - I don't know - proven Greek Macedonian blood, maybe. So he was on the extreme of the other side.
	::* I think Sthenel did 3 reverts not 4. I just checked it out carefully. It seems to me they are 3 but anyway Sthenel should remain his cool at all times because edit wars like that escalate sooner or later with the involvement of other "allies" and then there is no telling who reverted who how many times. I think he was fairly mild and civil in his responses even though he was dealing with a highly aggressive editor so I give him that.
	::About the racism thing, I can't say I have met myself with the best treatment since I created the article in question and after I had to declare myself a Macedonian (i.e. a Greek from Macedonia, Greece) during the ARBMAC2 Arbitration case. But to be fair I think Alex was more like acting along the course of the ] and wasn't acting because of racial reasons. He was being discriminating though. He seems to have a strong politically anti-Greece attitude. Hope he chills out. Thanks. ] <sup>]</sup> 01:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			Now past 3rr reinsertion of their alteration of another users post. So its now vandalism. ] (]) 14:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	== New tools ==
			As well as this tit for tat report ]. ] (]) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	Please see ] ] 18:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			:IP blocked for edit warring. --] 14:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	== ] cross XfD advice ==
			{{abot}}
			== Heritage Foundation planning to doxx editors ==
	An eager editor has apparently built an impressive package of content. The articles all seem to be at ] which also lists a template and category. My hunch is the closer can delete those as well but those items are currently untagged as potentially being deleted. Any suggestions as to the path of least drama? ] 20:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			{{atop|result=Closing to prevent a split discussion. The most central discussion about this is currently held at ]. —] 22:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	:If a category includes no articles I think it can be deleted. Not sure on a template, but a Miscellaneous for Deletion can always be done after the AfD closes. No rush. I think it's best to let things run their natural course. FYI, sometimes editors can be sensitive about postings regarding active AfDs because they think it can sway discussion or be used as a form of canvassing. I'm not accusing you of anything, and I know this post was made in good faith, but I do think it's worth being aware of. Perhaps best to follow up after it closes or to ask the questions more generally as a policy matter unrelated to a specific case (although even that can be touchy with all the paranoia going around). :) ] (]) 23:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			See ]. Various sources are beginning to report on this, see , . It seems they plan to “identify and target Misplaced Pages editors abusing their position by analyzing text patterns, usernames, and technical data through data breach analysis, fingerprinting, HUMINT, and technical targeting,” and “engage curated sock puppet accounts to reveal patterns and provoke reactions, information disclosure,” and “push specific topics to expose more identity-related details.” An IP user on the discussion page says "they intend to add malicious links (sources) that will set cookies, grab your IP, and get tracking going for your device. This has likely already started. Be careful, there are lots of ways to hide where a link goes." ] (]) 17:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I'm sure you mean well however that doesn't address any of my questions concerning this case involving an AfD that is cross-listing an CfD, RfD and Tfd without actually tagging those items for XfD. As they are all dependent on the articles, which all seem likely to be deleted, is this an IAR where the AfD can be cited for deleting these other items as well rather than sending each of those through SNOW processes. ] 01:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::I tried to address it by suggesting that you leave it to closing admin and taking it from there. ] (]) 01:24, 3 December 2009 (UTC)		:I think there's a far more productive discussion going on at ]. ] (]) 17:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::A friendly reminder: It's always a good time to review the strength and age of account passwords, plus consider two-factor verification. The world is constantly changing... ] (]) 17:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Isn't doxing a federal/punishable offense in ten states (more or less), including DC? If they grab the information of or out a minor, that can easily be taken on as a form of harassment and won't end well. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::No doubt the Trump adminstration will make pursuing such cases a high priority. ]] 22:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'm unsure why this isn't a WMF issue, due to potential legal and safeguarding issues. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 19:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The WMF has been made aware. ]&nbsp;(she/her&nbsp;•&nbsp;]) 19:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Truffle457 ==
	== Disruptive Editing and User Talk page abuse by Scientus ==
			{{atop|result=Editor blocked indefinitely. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{user|Truffle457 }}
	For the past several weeks, user Scientus has been obstructively editing the ] page. He has persisted in editing in blatantly NPOV language and extensive soap boxing. Multiple times, we have reached a consensus on the talk page, only to have Scientus ignore our discussions and then persist in his NPOV editing. The best example of this is in this section: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Alan_Grayson#More_NPOV_language_from_Scientus <br>
	Scientus has additionally persisted in filling my talk page up with unconstructive allegations against me. These are summarized here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Trilemma&diff=329253240&oldid=329038550 <br>
	I would additionally like to request an IP check of user Sam Albrecht, whose only editing was on the Alan Grayson page and whose NPOV language was suspiciously similar to Scientus'. I also have concerns that, given the doggedness with which Scientus has persisted in his NPOV edits, he may be officially connected with Representative Grayson. ] (]) 20:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Additionally, Scientus vandalized my discussion page: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Trilemma&diff=329030997&oldid=329026048 ] (]) 20:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	::I've filed the sock puppet complaint on the appropriate board, to update. ] (]) 21:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	== Edit war at ] ==
	I've blocked both {{user|Officially Mr X}} and {{user|The359}} for 24 hours each for edit warring on 2009 Formula One season . IMO both have breached ], and although they are both normally productive editors I feel that I cannot let this pass without comment. ] (]) 20:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			I don't even know what to call this. This user has few edits but most are like this. ] (]) 22:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Might be a little heavy handed, at least on 359's part. While he may have been heading towards a 4th revert (which obviously we won't know about), it does seem to ignore the rather long history of disruption that Mr X appears to have on F1 articles. A stern word might have worked for both of them just as well. Though it is done with now. <span style="font-famiy: verdana;"> --] ~ ] • </span> 21:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			:This is a new user with only a single level I notice on their page. I've issued a level II caution for using talk pages as a forum and added a welcome template. If this persists, stronger measures may be needed. -] (]) 22:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:], I'd advise talking with an editor, through words, not templates, before filing a complaint at ANI. That's a general recommendation unless there is active vandalism going on. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::His comments are disturbing tbh. ] (]) 22:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::The user's response to {{U|Ad Orientem}}'s warning demonstrates that they have no insight into their misconduct and are ].--] (]) 23:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{notdone|Indeffed}} per WP:CIR. -] (]) 23:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Well, by having a conversation, you discerned that CIR applied. Some communication, I think, is better than silence at least when you are trying to make sense of an unclear situation. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== YZ357980, second complaint ==
	::The way I see it is that I can't apply a sanction unevenly when an edit war is in progress, hence both were blocked. Both have been around long enough to know the 3RR by now, hence the short block. That said, I'll be ameniable to an unblock request as long as both editors realise that edit warring is wrong, and there is discussion of the issue on the article's talk page (none so far) to obtain consensus. ] (]) 21:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			I have again reverted {{u|YZ357980}}'s insertion of an image of dubious copyright; change of Somali Armed Forces native-name to an incorrect format; and violation of ] at ] - see ] which had another editor fix the incorrect file format. I believe this editor is ] and not willing to communicate and I would request administrator attention to this matter. Kind regards ] ] 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::I'm inclined to drift toward The359 (on the content! blocks are fine). There was a perfectly acceptable existing version and no call for that information. ...It is really ridiculous extra information. Would be kind of like reporting the results of scrimmage games during NFL practice. +1 on content, -1 on attitude? No matter. ], never mind that we don't do databases or endless info collection anyway, and neither seem to want to get along. ...Just let the blocks run off, or if someone is to unblock it should be both just to keep whatever type of zen balance in data formatting there should be. If you inform them both that their counterpart is also blocked for a day they'll probably relax. <b>♪</b> <span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps">]]</span> 21:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			:For the record, that image has been on Commons since 2015 and was made by a different user. That said, YZ357980 continues to make these borderline disruptive edits and has ''never'' posted on an article talk page or a user talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace until communication improves, as it is ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::1. Thankyou!! Much appreciated!!
			::2. Yes I was aware of the status of those images, but I repeatedly told YZ357980 that it was of borderline copyright and WP had to follow US copyright law. I have managed to get the equivalent Iraqi ones deleted; I will go after the Somali ones to try to get them deleted.
			::3. ''Someone'' (an anon IP) posted on his talkapage as if replying, see . Please feel free to reconsider your actions should you wish, but I continue to believe YZ357980 is NOTHERE. ] ] 18:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Given which is clearly YZ not logged in, the block has been changed to full indef. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:01, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			== My reverted edit at List of Famicom Disk System games ==
	<small>Copied from User talk:Officially Mr X</small>
			{{atop|1=At worst, this deserves a {{tl|minnow}}. This is, at heart, a content dispute, and ] is the place to discuss it. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	::::For ] (who has apparently given himself superiority to dish out edit bans for some reason which seems thoroughly arrogant to me) about ]: there has actually been a discussion already around this issue on ]. My points, as usual, aren't really being considered even when my article ideas and suggestions are constructive and make logical sense. I find it a ridiculous system on Misplaced Pages in these areas. ] (]) 21:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			Hi
			I added {{tl|clear}} to the top of table of ] to make the table use the whole horizontal space. I did it according to other list of video games articles and reception section of some video games articles to help the table list look better or not reception table to conflict with references (double column references more specifically).
	:::::Officially Mr X, I have not given myself superiority to dish out edit bans. The tools were granted to me, as with all admins, by the consensus of the community in an RFA. ] is a bright-line rule, which you broke. You have been around long enough to know this, hence the short block. I checked the talk page of the article being warred over and saw no discussion there. ] (]) 21:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
	<small>Copied text ends</small>
			However {{ping|NakhlaMan}} reverted my edit and with a rude language called it "UGLIER" and calls it waste of too much space.
	== IP used for reverts in Israeli-Palestinian disputes ==
			With my edit, it adds just a small space to the top of list heading but the table could be read easier and uses the whole available space. ] (]) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	Question regarding: {{userlinks|166.217.187.155}}
			:I don't think this is the right place for this. Yes, the user could have been much nicer on their opinion, but this is too much of an escalation, too fast. I would advise commenting on their talk page, or on the page talk page. Cheers, ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 04:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC) {{nacmt}}
	By the looks of things, this is an experienced user who's reverting things with an anti-Israeli perspective (they call it "consensus") without logging into their account. Reasons could be from laziness all the way up to being a topic banned or site banned editor undercutting their sanction. In any event, such conduct can only induce similar behavior from the other side of the conflict and could easily degenerate any discussion into an electric fence gaming where everyone's trying to figure out who's using an IP to get his favorite version into the article. Here's a of said IP fighting in such a manner with another IP and, just recently, this IP has made a revert on an article I'm discussing issues on that is very sensitive and could easily degenerate. Putting it succinctly, I'm concerned with said IP and was wondering if there's any suggestions/thoughts on the issue as how to handle such drive by possibly banned editors best. Warm regards, <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 23:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			:Yes, their edit summary was mildly rude, but this is not actionable, please open a discussion on the article's talk page.]] 04:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Your question is vague and unspecified. The answer (to your non-question "I .. was wondering if there's any suggestions/thoughts on the issue as how to ..." etc etc), so far, is: 1st: Please specify --illustrated with diffs; multiple ones if you want to point a 'trend'--. 2nd: no, there are no "suggestions/thoughts" at this level. PS You are not new on Misplaced Pages. -] (]) 00:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	::I have notified the IP user about this discussion...]] 00:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	== Need help with ] ==		== Edit War in Korean clans of foreign origin ==
			{{Atop|Ger2024 blocked as a sock.--] (]) 14:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			User: Ger2024
			{{Userlinks|Ger2024}}
	{{resolved}}
	*{{checkuser|Edelweisz}}
	*{{checkip|70.161.65.83}}
			Ger2024 has been ] and violated ] (they have as of now made five reverts) and possibly ] despite my direct requests asking them to and to instead discuss with me and @CountHacker on the Talk Page. While they did respond to my efforts to try to talk to them on the Talk Page, they immediately then reverted my edits after they made their comments. The initial edits started when another Misplaced Pages user was verifying and deleting some info on the page (likely for factual accuracy) when the reverts began.
	This matter is both a case of ] and possible ] and so for ease am going with this more general board.
			In regards to WP:NPOV, there is a POV push, despite the multiple corrections both I and @CountHacker have issued. We notified the user that the same source they are using from is generally considered historically unreliable because it is a collection of folklore and legends (the source, while a valuable insight into Korean folklore, claims that the founder of the Korean kingdom of Silla was born from a literal Golden Egg, so cannot be taken to be factual because humans cannot be born from Golden Eggs).
	Could someone else help me with watching ]? I keep reverting IP and new user borderline racist and homophobic vandalism to that page, including such absurdities as:
			Despite trying to talk to them, they are just ignoring my and CountHackers actual points, and we even had more discussion but they just made their fifth revert.
	*"" - from the IP
	*"" - from the account
			:This report belongs at ]. ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 05:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) {{nacmt}}
	And the above are just some of the multiple edits being reverted. It is happening faster than I am able to handle as I am working on some off-wiki stuff at the moment as well. Please note that despite a warning, the editor has just replied with, "" and "" Please help. Thanks! Sincerely, --]<sup>'']''</sup> 23:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			:Who posted this complaint, they didn't leave a signature which, to me, shows a lack of experience. They also didn't leave any diffs so it's impossible to judge if there were indeed reverts. And as HeartGlow states, this is more suitable for ANEW which focuses on edit-warring. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	: about sums up their edits today. I've blocked the username indefinitely. <font color="darkorange">]</font><b><font color="midnightblue"><big>]</big></font></b><font color="red">]</font> 23:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			::Unclear if genuine question or rhetorical, but in case it's the former, it seems to be ]. (They have over 1000 edits and have been editing since 2022, but it appears they may be used to using the Reply tool, which might explain why they didn't think to <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> since replying in that manner does that automatically? I think? <small>...Not trying to excuse it so much as I'm trying to understand it.</small>) - ] (]) 08:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: And article semi'd for a week to head off further silliness. <b>]</b> 23:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
			:::Sorry about that, I was a bit sleep deprived when I made, I'll go to WP:ANEW.
	:::Thank you, Tnxman307 and Black Kite. Is it worth further checking if there is a relationship between the IP and the account? Best, --]<sup>'']''</sup> 00:00, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			:::And yea im way too used to the reply tool, i think i make these posts like once perhaps every few months so i got a bit rusty on this. Thanks! ] (]) 13:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::: They're clearly the same editor, so I've given the IP a short block as well, though the autoblock from the username block should've taken care of that anyway. <b>]</b> 00:04, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			{{Abot}}
	:::::Okay, sounds reasonable. I posted a request at the Video Game Wiki Project for other members to perhaps help watch list as well should the problem re-occur after protection ends. Take care! Sincerely, --]<sup>'']''</sup> 00:14, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			== Subtle vandalism by 8.40.247.4 ==
	== This type of abuse is the reason why people can never really trust Misplaced Pages. ==
			{{atop|1=Excellent report results in a two-year block. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			* {{Userlinks|8.40.247.4}}
			Since early 2020, ] has consistently and ] made edits that:
	{{Template:Resolved|Blocked for 31 hours for ban evasion, per ]. -- ''']'''] 02:17, 3 December 2009 (UTC)}}
	I am posting this because I want other administrators, who are not so corrupt and morally bankrupt, to see this behavior for what it is: Poison to the reputation of Misplaced Pages.
			* minimize achievements and contributions of black people in American society
	Will someone please review the behavior of ] regarding the blocking of the account I just created, ]. I posted anonymously to the talk page of this article ], which User:Gamaliel then deleted and immediately banned the IP I had posted from. I then created an account in response to his concerns of anonymity and reposted my topic in the discussion page, which user:Gamaliel then called ] and removed. After contacting him on his talk page, he then proceeded to ban my account citing block evasion. An indef block with no coherent reasoning given.
			* obscure or soften wording about right-wing and far-right leanings of conservative figures
			* promote fringe, racist, or pseudo-scientific theories
			The IP generally attempts to disguise the edits by lying about changes made in the edit summary. Here is a list of problem edits in chronological order:
	When I posted on his talk page that I felt that he was misusing his admin privileges, the posting was immediately removed by ](]) with no reason given. I reposted my concerns on Gamaliel's page and another admin, ](]) immediately removed it again, but this time with the potential threat ''"Don't do this..."'' Perhaps I should have listened to the voice of the Wikimafia because my account was quickly banned when I tried to follow the WP guidelines regarding my concerns. I assume the threat was in reference for trying to bring to light the unseemly abuse of Misplaced Pages and admin powers.
			{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"
	The threat from Crafty and bad faith behavior is in the edit history of the talk pages of ](]), ](]), ](]).
			! width="100" | Date
			! width="225" | Page
			! Issue
			|-
			| Mar 4, 2020
			| '''McComb, Mississippi''' (])
			|
			* Removal of section about black people gaining the right to vote with the Voting Rights Act.
			|-
			| May 31, 2020
			| '''John Derbyshire''' (])
			|
			* Removes phrase describing ], a white nationalist organization, as white nationalist. Summary: "{{!xt|Fixed a typo}}".
			|-
			| Jul 21, 2020
			| '''Richard Hayne''' (])
			|
			* "{{!xt|Reorganised wording}}" means removing criticism.
			* "{{!xt|made favourable LGBT commentary more vivid}}" (what?) replaces the subject's stance on homosexuality with a vague and unsourced statement about Urban Outfitters and the Hayne family.
			|-
			| Jul 28, 2020
			| '''Louie Gohmert''' (])
			|
			* Softens "opposes LGBT rights" to "generally opposes LGBT rights legislation". Removes the words "defamatory" from section on Gohmert's false allegations. Removes whole section on Gohmert's opposition to making lynching a hate crime.
			* Summary: "{{!xt|Grammatical issues.}}"
			|-
			| Sep 24, 2020
			| '''Back-to-Africa movement''' (])
			|
			* Omits the context of Christians accepting slavery when the slaves were Muslim to make it sound like religious Americans had always been morally opposed
			|-
			| Jan 14, 2021
			| '''Virginia Dare''' (])
			|
			* Removes description of VDARE as a group associated with white supremacy and white nationalism.
			|-
			| Apr 28, 2021
			| '''Bret Stephens''' (])
			|
			* Hides his climate change denial, so the sentence now basically reads "Bret Stephens has an opinion on climate change". Uses summary "{{!xt|Removed redundancy}}" (it wasn't redundant).
			|-
			| June 25, 2021
			| '''John Gabriel Stedman''' (])
			|
			* Removes sentence on pro-slavery leanings (admittedly unsourced) and sexual exploitation of one of his slaves (sourced). Summary: "{{!xt|Minor grammatical / spelling errors revised.}}"
			|-
			| Oct 7, 2021
			| '''Appalachian music''' (])
			|
			* Replaces the "various European and African influences" in the introduction with a phrase implying the music's origins were European, and that African-American influence only came later, which is untrue.
			* Rewords " call and response format ... was ''adopted'' by colonial America" to say " ... was ''also common'' in colonial America".
			* Removes entire paragraph about African-Americans introducing the banjo to white Southerners. Further down, changes "African banjo" to just "banjo".
			* Summaries: "{{!xt|Added links to traditional folk music wikis}}" and "{{!xt|Verbiage clean-up}}".
			|-
			| Nov 27, 2021
			| '''Steve Sailer''' (])
			|
			* Removes all mention of Sailer, backed by sources, as holding racist, white supremacist, and anti-semitic views in the introduction.
			* Removes description of Sailer's human biodiversity theory as pseudoscientific and racist.
			* Summary is "{{!xt|Added a link to human biodiversity}}" – true, but leaves out the 6,000 deleted bytes. Makes the same edit two more times, but is reverted each time.
			|-
			| Jan 26, 2022
			| '''Mongoloid''' (])
			|
			* Removes phrase calling it a disproven theory. Replaces sentence on racist origins in Western scholars with mention of Eastern scholars also promoting the theory (unsourced). Adds a phrase saying that actually, it's up for debate.
			|-
			| Jul 6, 2022
			| '''Indian Mills, New Jersey''' (])
			|
			* Deletes phrase about white colonists displacing Native American families. Summary: "{{!xt|Removed a dead link}}".
			|-
			| Feb 20, 2023
			| '''Myth of meritocracy''' (])
			|
			* Changes sentence on institutional racism to describe it as "theoretical institutional racism".
			|-
			| Mar 26, 2023
			| '''Millford Plantation''' (])
			|
			* Hides the plantation's origins in slavery by renaming description from "forced-labor farm" to "farmstead". Summary: "{{!xt|Added link to slavery in the USA}}".
			|-
			| Jun 17, 2023
			| '''John Birch Society''' (])
			|
			* Removes mention of the society being right-wing, far-right, and radical right in introduction.
			* Further down, removes description as being ultraconservative and extremist, and Southern Poverty Law Center's classification as antigovernment.
			* Summary: "{{!xt|Removed faulty and vague links.}}"
			|-
			| Jan 9, 2025
			| '''Robert Gould Shaw''' (])
			|
			* Removes sentence on the battle inspiring African-Americans to join the Union Army during the Civil War. Summary: "{{!xt|Grammatical clean-up}}".
			|-
			| Jan 9, 2025
			| '''Virginia Dare''' (])
			|
			* Edits the page again four years later, this time using VDARE's closing as an excuse to remove all mention of it. Claims it is "{{!xt|no longer relevant}}", which is a crazy argument.
			|}
			The IP doesn't make enough edits at a time for vandalism warnings to rise to level 4, and thus has never been blocked (which is why I'm reporting this here and not at ]). These groups of edits are also spaced out over months, so a different user warns the IP each time (eight times so far!). The user, unfamiliar with the IP's editing history, treats the old warnings as "expired" and simply issues another level 1 or 2 warning.
	] (]) 01:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			I believe this IP should be banned for a while. Unfortunately, there are probably many more like this one that haven't been caught yet. --] (]) 09:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	:That account was blocked for block-evasion and being an attack-only account. But thanks for giving us your IP address. How are things in BC? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			:I spot checked these and yeah this is bad. Using false and misleading edit summaries to remove in most cases sourced descriptions to slant articles. <small style="background:#ccc;border:#000 1px solid;padding:0 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap;">] | ]</small> 12:42, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	::What, no Plaxico, lol? Oops, forgot to sign. ] (]) 02:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Previous was done with 142.104.215.217, so I think we already knew where the guy was coming from, but point made. ] is best here. -- ''']'''] 02:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)		::Jesus Christ. Blocked for two years, since it looks like the IP is stable. ] ] 15:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Heh. I'm in a Cabal. :D ] (]) 02:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC)		:::Thank you! ] (]) 19:08, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I think this discussion is a good example of providing all the infomation needed to the admins to make the decision. If only everyone who complained here did the same. ] (]) 19:16, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Egl7, anti-Armenian behaviour ==
	{{Userlinks|142.104.215.217}}<br>
			{{atop|1=Egl7 indef'd for being here to argue instead of building an encyclopedia. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	{{Userlinks|142.104.160.216}}<br>
			{{userlinks|Egl7}}
	{{Userlinks|Technical_reasons}}
			Egl7 clearly has bone to pick with Armenia, including dancing on the fine line of ], not to mention severe ] issues. As a Russian admin admit perfectly put it when they indeffed Egl7;
	== 98.234.169.63 = Fastily? ==
			#Egl7 never tries to take responsibility for their actions, instead being upset and obsessing over that I didn't revert a random IP that added "Armenian" under "common languages" in an infobox almost two years ago , mentioning that 7 (!) times
	Pardon the digression, but is {{Userlinks|98.234.169.63}} actually the admin {{Userlinks|Fastily}} in the discussion some distance up the page? Or is it an impostor? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 06:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			#According to Egl7, having three things (out of 25) about Armenia on my userpage - being part of the ], being interested in the history of ], and opposing the denial of the Armenian genocide, means I support "Armenia's actions" , whatever that means. They never explained it despite being asked to, which leads me to the next thing.
			#Here is this incredibly bizarre rant by Egl7 for me having stuff about Armenia on my userpage and not Azerbaijan, accusing me of anti-Azerbaijani sentiment and whatnot;
			#Egl7 does not understand when someone is not interested in engaging in ] whataboutism, instead resorting to ], first on my talk page , then an article talk page , then their own talk page . This random question about the ] appeared after I asked them if they denied the Armenian Genocide since they considered me having a userpage about it part of "supporting Armenia's actions". According to this well sourced Wiki section , the term "genocide" is a "fabrication" for the Khojaly massacre, which is "used to counter the narrative of the Armenian genocide."
			#Dancing on the fine line of ], if not denying it
			#Despite being blocked on the Russian Misplaced Pages for it, their first action here was trying the very same thing they were indeffed for ; changing "Nakhichevan" (Armenian spelling) to "Nakhichivan" (Azerbaijani spelling)
			#I truly tried to have ] despite their disruptive conduct and previous block, but this user is simply ]. There also seems to be severe ] at hand, as they struggle understanding a lot of what I say, including even reading ], which I had to ask them to read 5 (!) times before I gave up. As seen in our long discussion , they also to struggle understand basic sentences/words, such as the difference between "official" and "common".
			I'm not going to respond to Egl7 here unless an admin wants me to. --] (]) 13:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	: Wouldn't it be less drama inducing to ask him about it? That account has been editing for months (), so I don't think it's an imposter. -- ] (]) 07:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			=== HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour ===
	::Asking the IP would be rather pointless. I was going to ask Fastily, but he hasn't edited under that ID since the 26th. It just seems weird for an IP to sign as a user, especially an admin. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 07:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			]
			@] clearly has bone to pick with Azerbaijan, including ] my ] work which includes correction of arrangement of the "Today is part of" infobox following the country, in which, at present, the largest part of the territory of the Nakhchivan Khanate is located. @] is reverting back changes, saying that my https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&diff=prev&oldid=1268162595 edit is not an improvement without any real reason and without offering any argument. Also they are stating that there is a restriction according to ], while ignoring edits of other users. I asked them many times to open a discussion so both sides could offer different proposals which in turn would lead to a consensus. In response all my requests were ignored. Also they have been accusing me of having conflicts with other users and countries while I have never noted or mentioned any and they have been impolite to me all the time, while i have never been impolite or rude to them. I want to say that I am blocked on ru.wikipedia, again, because of no real reason(They are vandalizing and projecting their actions onto me) and now i'm even worried that en.wikipedia will do the same to me.
	::: He's been doing it for months , but I admit it's a bit odd. -- ] (]) 07:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::I'm not sure whether Fastily is doing that because he is deliberately or accidentally logged out at the time. The only issue I have is with the replacement of the IP signature with Fastily's signature. A better way would be to add a link in brackets ''after'' the IP signature. ] (]) 07:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Deliberately logged out. I'm busy in real life right now so I'm attempting to take a Wikibreak which hasn't been all that successful thus far. I usually end up spending less time on-wiki editing as an IP without the tools so I do that. Please feel free to email me if you need me to confirm this. Regards, ''']''' <sup><small>]</small></sup></span> 07:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Fastily, if you take up my suggestion above, we can mark this one as resolved. ] (]) 08:21, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			They are also dancing on the fine line of denying ], if not denying it.
	== Requested extended block of User:Njirlu ==
			Thank You. ] (]) 15:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{User3|Njirlu}} is a single-purpose account (apparently active also on other, non-English wikis), intent on changing/adding a number of very dubious ethnonyms to the ] page and related articles. His edits have been reverted many times, for reasons explained to him several times in no uncertain terms by a number of users in his talk page. He has responded by rants and personal attacks (he recently a Nazi), and has been blocked repeatedly for his behaviour. He's back from a month-long ban now, and I don't see any signs of him changing his pattern of editing. Despite repeated admonitions and warnings to either find credible sources or stay off the page, he does the same things over and over. Aside from changing the names in the lede and adding a large chunk of bibliography, his contribution to the rest of the article is zero. ] ] 12:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	: Have you considered an ]? (]<span style="border:1px solid red;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 12:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			:*'''Boomerang''' this is a clearly retaliatory filing. I think Egl7 is ]. ] (]) 15:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I have, but the problem is not that he needs to be educated in Wikiquette. The relevant policies have been repeated to him over and over, and he is at times capable of a relatively civilized discussion, but the essence is that he does not or does not want to understand that he is doing something wrong. He is a very dedicated fringe POV-warrior who fights (in his own eyes) for the truth against the likes of me, Greek and Romanian Nazis who hate Aromanians... He is not likely (understandably) to change his views on this issue... ] ] 12:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
			:*'''Boomerang''' obvious retaliatory filling. ] (]) 15:07, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:As a non-EC editor, you should not be discussing Armenia/Azerbaijan issues at all except for making specific, constructive edit requests on the relevant talk pages. Once you received notice about the restriction, none of your related edits were in good faith, and all may be reverted without being considered edit warring. And quite frankly, the diffs that HistoryofIran has presented about your behavior don't look great. Your behavior on Russian Misplaced Pages doesn't affect your rights on English Misplaced Pages, but since you brought it up, I have to agree that you were there and now here more to fight than to edit a collaborative encyclopedia. ] (]) 15:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::@] tell me, please, if there is a restriction why are everybody's edits are ignored except mine? You are not doing justice. ] (]) 15:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Because the restriction is specific to people who do not have extended confirmed status. ] (]) 15:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::i know that i'm being picky and can sound like a snitch, don't get me wrong, but, at least, i'm editing from an account while other users are editing from random IPs. How is it possible for a random IP to have an extended confirmed status? ] (]) 15:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::The person you created this obviously retaliatory report against is not an IP and does have EC status. The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward. ] (]) 15:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I'm not taking about @] here. Look up the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&action=history. You can see that there are IPs, edits of which were ignored even if those edits have been done after the restriction had been set. This is what makes it unfair. By this logic my edits should've been ignored too. ] (]) 16:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::No IP has edited the page in question in nearly a year. You are complaining about a non-issue. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::The restriction has been set much earlier than a year. ] (]) 16:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Right, but at ANI we deal with {{tq|urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.}} The IP edits here are old news. Further, having now reviewed the page's last 5 years of history...out of 7 IP edits made, 5 were reverted almost immediately, 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (]), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (], which added "Armenian language"). You'll notice upon minimal investigation, however, that HistoryofIran's most embattled edits to this page were to ''remove'' "Armenian language" from the article in July of 2023; it's rather disingenuous to accuse them of all people of turning a blind eye here. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::This does not refute what I said above. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::There are actually 2 or more of them. I guess it's his duty to support both sides and remove or add information which is or is not necessary. ] (]) 16:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::I'm not sure what you're trying to say here at this point, but it also doesn't matter. HoI raised multiple valid concerns regarding the quality of your editing in an area that per our community guidelines, you should be intentionally avoiding. In response, you filed a retaliatory report and are now arguing technicalities that are tangential to the substance of HoI's initial report. The fact that you are arguing such trivial, irrelevant points is evidence against you in these proceedings. Your best course of action is to follow Simonm223's advice above. Failure to take that advice at this point is almost certain to end with you blocked. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? ] (]) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It's not. However, someone making an inappropriate edit without being caught does not make your inappropriate edits into appropriate ones. There have been many successful bank robberies in history, but that doesn't mean I'm allowed to rob the bank next to my grocery store. You need to start focusing on how ''you'' conduct yourself, not on how others do, because right now, you appear to be headed towards a block. ] (]) 16:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I understand you. But i want to note that no matter how successful are the robberies, a lengthy criminal investigation will be launched. In addition, i want to say that i wasn't aware of those edits before I did mine. ] (]) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You did receive a warning on your talk page. Your conduct issues are not limited to violating ECP. You would be wise to heed the advice given in this thread from Simonm223 and Rosguill. The community does not have much patience for nationalist editing. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? ] (]) 16:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::], {{tq| The restriction applies to all edits and pages related to the topic area, broadly construed}}. That includes complaints about other editors. Which you should know already, as you have been repeatedly warned about GS/AA and should have read that page carefully. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::So Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident, which in my case is "HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour"? I am asking this because you said that "The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward". And still, what you said in this comment does not refute what I said above. ] (]) 16:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Lists of everyone that has been sanctioned for GS/AA violations, or CT/AA violations more broadly, can be found at ] and further at ] under each year's Armenia-Azerbaijan (CT/A-A) section. Note that this only lists people who repeatedly ignored warnings and got blocked for it, simple reverts are not logged. I would encourage you to avoid getting your own username added to that list. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			* All I see is Egl7 doubling down. I have already tried to tell them that there was nothing wrong with the IP edit they are fixiated on, and that it doesn’t excuse their unconstructice edits regardless. The fact that they were caught red handed in genocide denial and anti-Armenian conduct and then fruitlessly attempts to make me appear as the same with Azerbaijanis by copy-pasting part of my report and replace “Armenian” with “Azerbaijani” says a lot about this user. ] (]) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:@] "There was nothing wrong"
			*:As @] said 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (]), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (], which added "Armenian language").
			*:As I understand you were aware or now are aware of those edits done by those IPs what tells me that you admit that you ignored or are ignoring the edits that have been done after the restriction has been set and now you are still stating that there was or is nothing wrong with those IPs' edits. ] (]) 16:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::And we're done here. If you can read my comments here close enough to try to use them to make tendentious arguments at HoI, you should be able to understand that I already told you this is not even slightly appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I '''endorse''' this block. ] (]) 20:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			{{abot}}

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Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from User:DarwIn

User:DarwIn, a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is harassing me here after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. Skyshiftertalk 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use {{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~ on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --Yamla (talk) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics (Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is targeting the DYK nomination, again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute.

Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. Skyshiftertalk 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --Yamla (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally edited the DYK page and put a "disagree", despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. His comment is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, he insisted saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, he reincluded the comment. I asked him to stop harassing me, but he has edited the page again.

I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. Skyshiftertalk 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already blocked at the Portuguese Wikipédia and Wikimedia Commons, the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, with an open case for sockpuppetry at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please. Darwin 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. Skyshiftertalk 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which you are well known for abusing whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. Darwin 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

And here's explicit transphobia. It's her daughter, no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. Skyshiftertalk 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. Skyshiftertalk 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  • Comment I would suggest Darwin review MOS:GENDERID. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. Simonm223 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    @Simonm223 I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? Darwin 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    @DarwIn, the bottom line is that you don't get to question that. As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is not the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them any good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. Blue Sonnet (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. Darwin 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read Thamirys Nunes' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). Skyshiftertalk 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. Darwin 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including MOS:GENDERID) - otherwise you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. Darwin 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here.

    Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there.

    And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. Eduardo G. 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the WP:GENSEX area.Simonm223 (talk) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I would suggest a topic ban is imposed. GiantSnowman 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I would support a topic ban from WP:GENSEX. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. GiantSnowman 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? Darwin 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. Darwin 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    @GiantSnowman nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. Darwin 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. Darwin 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    You fundementally misunderstand the scope of WP:BLP and the concept of topic area as well. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. Darwin 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    it was a collective you. Darwin 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. Nil Einne (talk) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

    None of this is relevant. We follow sources and MOS:GENDERID. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. GiantSnowman 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I've continued to post where? Darwin 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? Darwin 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? GiantSnowman 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@DarwIn The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have my own disagreements with that guideline, and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. Darwin 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? Darwin 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@DarwIn This one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Ad Orientem I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. Darwin 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@DarwIn Easiest way to defuse this is to post a bolded and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" Darwin 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. GiantSnowman 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. Darwin 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. Darwin 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 Darwin 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. Darwin 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? Darwin 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Because of edits like this . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? Darwin 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? Darwin 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  I answered a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. Darwin 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. Darwin 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway. Darwin 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Isaidnoway I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. Darwin 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary one-way interaction ban, broadly construed, as in effect. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Isaidnoway yes, that's correct. Darwin 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about righting great wrongs in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. Isabelle Belato 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? Darwin 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. Isabelle Belato 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Isabelle Belato You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me in the English Misplaced Pages? Darwin 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @The Bushranger Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? Darwin 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Would recommend that Darwin walk away from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Clarification

• Hello @Nil Einne - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in my country, to the point of eventually configuring a crime here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much.
• As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ILGA Portugal, which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that.
• The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here.
• Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan.
• And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. Darwin 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Proposed Community Sanctions

I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this.

Proposed DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to WP:GENSEX broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. PS - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. GoodDay (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? TarnishedPath 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support topic ban and IBAN, both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. GiantSnowman 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Just read through the above and good grief. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. Simonm223 (talk) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. Ymblanter (talk) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

That's actually a fair point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent WP:RGW impulse. Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Simonm223 You have been misjudging me - It was quite the opposite, actually, if it's worth anything. Darwin 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the WP:GENSEX area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. Simonm223 (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Simonm223 OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). Darwin 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

If they weren't before they are now... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok, to be clear, I oppose a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. Ymblanter (talk) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. Darwin 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back And those were the only ones, and I voluntarily stopped them yesterday immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to my stance here. You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. Darwin 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? Darwin 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽‍♂️ Darwin 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? Darwin 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back There was not any "lie", please stop assuming bad faith. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". Darwin 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Darwin has a long history of editing in WP:GENSEX albeit generally less controversially. an example. Simonm223 (talk) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Simonm223 That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. Darwin 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  DarwIn WP:GENSEX covers gender and sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Simonm223 Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. Darwin 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support per Bushranger. charlotte 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. Springee (talk) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Pppery: days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ⇒SWATJester 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Support Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. Nil Einne (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Nil Einne What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? Darwin 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @DarwIn: Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times #c-DarwIn-20241229133200-Skyshifter-20241229132800, #c-DarwIn-20241229152900-Simonm223-20241229150600, #c-DarwIn-20241229154200-Blue-Sonnet-20241229154000, #c-DarwIn-20241229154100-Simonm223-20241229153800, #c-DarwIn-20241229160700-GiantSnowman-20241229154400, #c-DarwIn-20241229172200-Ad_Orientem-20241229171800. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like thought police. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here. Darwin 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. Darwin 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  User:DarwIn, I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. Liz

  @Liz: Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that. Darwin 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  @DarwIn: you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. Nil Einne (talk) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. Nil Einne (talk) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it.

MiasmaEternal☎ 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - Per GoodDay and Springee. Ciridae (talk) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.Boynamedsue (talk) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of MOS:GENDERID may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer WP:AGF. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN/IBAN Weak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN - WP:NQP suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate WP:NOTHERE behavior. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

"A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. EEng 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. EEng 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

OK boomer. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. EEng 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.Boynamedsue (talk) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP WP:DROPTHESTICK - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. Simonm223 (talk) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. Simonm223 (talk) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of WP:PG, and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN.

sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour there would be no mention of WP:NPA. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture continues to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. Simonm223 (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as unnecessary given the commitments already given. WaggersTALK 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Let's not. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). Edited to include edit conflict comment. CNC (talk) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am assuming you haven't spent much time in places WP:FTN where religious belief and persons of faith are not infrequently and quite openly subject to ridicule. Racism is a subject upon which society has happily come to more or less full agreement. Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other. I shall refrain from further comment out of deference to WP:FORUM. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC) Fringe ideas get ridiculed at FTN regardless of whether or not they are religious... That so many fringe views are also religious is more a result of the supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual being inherently fringe than any problem with FTN. Religion which is rational and explainable isn't religion any more after all. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC) Thank you for affirming my point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC) Your point was that "Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other." Right? Like for example the LGBTQ grooming conspiracy theory or is that not the side you were thinking of? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC) No. I was thinking of people who regularly insult and ridicule religious belief and those who hold to it. Something which based on your comment, does not seem to be a source of concern to you. That said, this discussion is veering deep into WP:FORUM territory and I am going to move on. Have a good day. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC) I don't think I've ever seen any of those people suggest that trans people are demons, or did you mean demonize in a way other than literally saying that the other side is demonic/satan's minions? Becuase that would be highly ironic... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC) I am reaching the uncomfortable conclusion that you are attempting to be deliberately offensive. And for the record, you are succeeding. Good day. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC) You weren't aware that a cornerstone of the gender controversy was religious conservatives resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other? Because that is well documented in reliable sources. I don't think you're the one who is supposed to be offended here, you're the one saying what appear to be extremely offensive things and are being asked to clarify what you meant. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC) (edit conflict) I think a significant point here is that while we may tolerate some degree of forumish and offensive comment about gender or race or religions from editors when they are restricted to largely abstract comment or even when they reference other editors, it's far more of a problem when the editors make offensive accusations about living persons especially when these are completely unrelated to any discussion about how to cover something (noting that the editor continued to make the comment even after they had noted how the English wikipedia treats issues). So for example, if someone says a specific religious figure is delusion or lying in relation to how we treat their testimony that might barely be acceptable. When someone just comes out and says it repeatedly for no reason, that's far more of a problem. Especially if the figure is someone barely notable and not notable (as was the case here for one of the individuals each). Nil Einne (talk) 22:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

This is affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Comment This is definitely not the ideal place to discuss the subject since the whole problem originated with pt.wiki, but since the editor came here asking for help (for the right reasons or not), I will draw attention to the case of the admin accused of transphobia. This is not the first time that DarwIn has been singled out due to his comments on the subject (he has already given several examples of this here), but there is an official pt.wiki community on Telegram where the editor has already been criticized for making such comments. There, they were also celebrating Skyshifter's ban (DarwIn commented something like "as a man he was 100%, after transitioning he became unbearable" to refer to her). As much as they try not to link the group to the project, to use this chat you need to associate your Misplaced Pages credentials, so I am concerned that pt.wiki admins could be seen spreading speeches against minorities in an official space of the project, since Misplaced Pages is the target of attacks for investing in equity and diversity. In addition to this comment, the admin was also extremely rude and crude towards a Misplaced Pages research group that discusses gender, sexuality and race. Again, this is not the ideal place to comment on these issues, but I suggest that the case be submitted to Wikimedia if any intervention or something more incisive is necessary. The local community can accuse me of anything for writing these words, but I am concerned about the escalation of editorial harassment within that space. PS: The editor was mocking this discussion in the Telegram group while I was writing this. Jardel (talk) 01:57, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Came back after a month with no edits for this? It's quite clear Jardel is taking something personal with DarwIn here. Or he doesn't have anything to do at the moment. And he didn't have such great writing and narrative in his mother tongue, now is writing perfect, well written English. That gets stranger considering he's partially blocked in ptwiki for some beefing with other editors (block discussion in portuguese)... Quite strange, to say the least. Eduardo G. 03:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) And yes, by "quite strange" I am talking about maybe meatpuppetry. Nobody comes after a month without edits (that was preeceded by some other months before some 5-ish edits), to make an "accusation" based on unfounded arguments, especially after being blocked precisely for beefing and attacking other members of the community in his homewiki. Such a hypocrisy, a user banned for beefing accusating another user of attacks and using the word "transphobia" so vaguely. Eduardo G. 03:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) As I expected, the group participants started making accusations against me (that's why Eduardo G. appeared in this discussion) and wanted to insinuate that Skyshifter is writing this text, perhaps wanting to provoke some kind of retaliation later. First, I appreciate the compliments on my writing, which was 100% done by Google Translate; I think Google's engineering is to be congratulated. Second, I'm only here on this page because I noticed the links to this discussion in the Telegram group itself and decided to contribute with what I've been reading for a long time with great disgust. I didn't need to bring much, Darwin himself made a point of making abject comments in this discussion, but if you want, I can bring some screenshots of what they were talking about in the group. Third, I did go 1 month without editing here because my focus is not on en.wiki but on pt.wiki, where I make regular edits. I find it strange that you entered this discussion without refuting any of the arguments above, thinking that bringing up my tarnished "reputation" changes everything that was written by me or in the group. I believe it must be embarrassing to participate in a group where they are celebrating the sanctions that Skyshifter will suffer (thinking that place is a "private club") while at the same time you send cordial greetings from the "public side" to the same editor, simulating virtue. In any case, my goal here is only to reinforce that there is indeed materiality in what Skyshifter said with more evidence and once again I recommend that the discussion be evaluated by the Wikimedia team knowing that attitudes that demonstrate prejudice against minorities go against the project's investments in equity, diversity and equality. Jardel (talk) 03:52, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I will not pursue any retaliation. I'm just stating what I know of this case, and I even supported Sky when the edits were being made. People are celebrating because all of this discussion was brought to even another wiki by her. But I understand you might've written this text, and will not take the subject further. If anybody needs anything, please read the message below. Cheers. Eduardo G. 03:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) So, I don't disagree with your argument about the sanctions she's passing on the other project, unfortunately. As for "not pursue any retaliation", I don't think that's what you mean by the phrase "4 successful DBs in a row is not for everyone." directed at me. Jardel (talk) 04:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) @Jardel You're wrong, twice. First, it wasn't me saying that. It was NCC-1701, and my user in TG is Edu. And at no point did I agree with NCC's messages. And secondly, the "four DBs in a row" wasn't in anyway directed at you. It was directed to Bageense, who opened 4 block discussions in the last 2 or 3 days and all of them were successfull. You are distorting the messages to condone your erroneous narrative. Eduardo G. 04:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Well, if I am "distorting messages" to "tolerate" my narrative, anyone who wants to evaluate can join the group and read the messages posted there or see the pt.wiki discussion against the Projeto Mais Teoria da História na Wiki and talk to its members to see what their opinion is on the matter. I may not be a perfect person, but what I see with great displeasure (coming from those who are "in charge of the gears") is not positive for the project. Jardel (talk) 04:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Joining the group the community would then have no doubts about your intents and distortion of facts. You didn't deny the two things I said above — you know I'm right, you can't bend the facts this much. Eduardo G. 04:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) As a ptwiki user that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage (here)/in her UP, thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the block discussion (in portuguese). The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it. This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone. I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my portuguese talk page (direct url). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. Eduardo G. 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community "worms, scoundrels, trash and deniers". And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user already tried to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, went to Meta-Wiki in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. InvictumAlways (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC) It is pretty clear thay the intents of Jardel here are disruptive. Your comment hopefully leaves no doubt to the community. Eduardo G. 04:53, 31 December 2024 (UTC) As I said above, I am not a perfect person. I may have used foul language to address some editors in a moment of anger, but I felt vulnerable and hurt by editors I held in high regard, and I apologize for what I wrote in the past. Likewise, I do not think it is right that a social channel that is reported as "linked to Misplaced Pages" is being used as a bar where people can say whatever they want, especially when it comes to prejudiced comments against minorities. At no time did I label all of them, only one of them demonstrated that she was doing so. If I happen to receive any sanction for this discussion, and knowing that bringing issues from pt.wiki here is not ideal, I will receive it for doing the right thing, because I want something to change for the better in a project that I have dedicated so much time to contributing to. I may be prevented from editing on Misplaced Pages, but if what I bring here helps to change something, I will be happy. Jardel (talk) 05:01, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

InvictumAlways - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? jellyfish ✉ 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

@Jardel The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, as you said yourself previously. Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• Supporting both IBAN and TBAN. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
• Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. Nil Einne (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain.

concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Children cannot consent, their parents can. (CC) Tbhotch 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--Boynamedsue (talk) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? Nil Einne (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. Simonm223 (talk) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support TBAN, no comment on IBAN. This is blatant POV harassment. (CC) Tbhotch 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- Patar knight - /_{contributions} 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose any sanctions I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate WP:OR on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. Dronebogus (talk) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support TBAN, indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this WP:NOTHERE type editing, whether it is attempting to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS or simply WP:BLUDGEONING discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. CNC (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose Skyshifter, if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to deëscelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. JayCubby 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite (here) to boot. Relm (talk) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY.

Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am.

Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages.

I support the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community.

I oppose with the IP-ban because if anything this SHOULD’VE ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing.

Reader of Information (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. Relm (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents.

NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent.

Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

This reply reminded me of the essay WP:CLUE. CNC (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. Reader of Information (talk) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. TarnishedPath 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at Special:Diff/1267644460 accusing me of coming to their talk page to "further troll me with this nonsense warning". TarnishedPath 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --Aquillion (talk) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support both. To make sure I haven't lost my goddamn mind, I read this discussion twice. I personally believe Darwin is in the wrong here. His behavior on enwiki violates both GENSEX and BLP sanctions (), and he doubled down when he had the chance to defend himself (Special:Diff/1267644460 and comments above). Even if we play devil's advocate and assume Darwin's claims about Sky being a troll/vandal and sockmaster (which is a heavy accusation to make) on ptwiki are true, her work on enwiki has shown that she's changed for the better. This is coming from a person who has interacted with Sky a couple of times (Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Virtual Self (EP)/archive1, Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Virtual Self (EP)/archive2, Talk:Quannnic/GA1); she is an amazing editor on here. For the sake of everyone involved and to avoid another mess like this, the sanctions above should be enforced. 💽 LunaEclipse 💽 🌹 ⚧ 08:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Skyshifter taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge.

100% affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this WP:BOOMERANGs on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. Liz 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC) The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. On the 29th of December, User:Skyshifter started an AN/I based on a claim that User:DarwIn, a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination here. AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate. She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log. This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage (here and in her UP), casting aspersions over other users and using ducks and meatpuppets to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it here, with all the proofs). The block discussion taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever. Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was personal and for revenge. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under pt:WP:NDD, here called WP:ASPERSIONS I think, and disruptive editing/WP:POINT, and in the AN/I above she's commiting WP:BLUDGEON, repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment. Eduardo G. 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC) @Eduardo Gottert: You need to provide evidence when opening an ANI thread, not on request. Nil Einne (talk) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) '@Nil Einne The evidences are above. I said if you need any further evidence, you may ask. All of the necessary evidence are on the request. Eduardo G. 06:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Where's the evidence? What we know is that DarwIn came here despite little involvement and made a highly offensive statement that can reasonably be characterised as transphobic. While I don't feel Sky Shifter should have described it so, better to let others decide, it was entirely reasonable for Sky Shifter to call for action against DarwIn for it. What is your evidence that they did it for revenge instead of for the fact that after a disagreement with DarwIn in a different wiki, DarwIn suddenly appeared in this wiki, one they themselves agree they barely edit, to make a highly offensive statement that Sky Shifter reasonably felt was transphobic. After doing so, they then appeared on ANI to make similar highly offensive statements were they made offensive accusations against living based on their own opinion. Nil Einne (talk) 06:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Honestly, the argument is pretty clear above. Eduardo G. 06:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) If you agree you're wrong then please withdraw this ANI. Nil Einne (talk) 06:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I did not agree in any place that I am wrong. I just stated that the evidence is pretty clear above, with all the block discussions and diffs needed for understanding the problem. Eduardo G. 06:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Your statement was very unclear. You said "the argument" which I interpreted to mean my argument. If you're still claiming your argument is clear, then please explain how it can be when part of your argument is it was unfair for Sky Shifter to go around saying "transphobia" when many of us agree that even if it was unnecessary, it was not unsupported given the comments DarwIn was making do seem to be transphobic. Nil Einne (talk) 06:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC) As we were talking about my evidence, I think saying "the argument" clearly refer to me. And as to the reason for the opening of this ANI, it's because the revenge seeking of Skyshifter. Eduardo G. 06:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I wouldn't say it doesn't considering as I said, one of the reasons your argument was flawed, but you didn't address that in any way. Nothing you've said above or since has explained why you're claiming Sky Shifter using the word "transphobic" is evidence for "revenge" when it's a reasonable characterisation of what DarwIn said. Nil Einne (talk) 06:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) (edit conflict) I would add it's very unclear what you thinking you're adding that wasn't already considered above. In the above thread a 1 way iban on DarwIn seems to be getting serious consideration. A two way iban seems to have been rejected based on the assessment that whatever the wrongs with Sky Shifter's approach, it wasn't serious enough to warrant an iban. The fact that Sky Shifter was in a dispute with DarwIn on other wikis, and DarwIn was involved in their blocked is likewise not a secret, part of it was stated by Sky Shifter when opening the thread and the rest was stated by DarwIn. The sock allegation likewise. So what do you think you're adding to the discussion that wasn't already considered and seemingly rejected by the community above? Nil Einne (talk) 06:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC) It is time for a WP:BOOMERANG. You already said all of that above. You seem to have been canvassed here from a discussion outside of this wiki. Go back there and let them know cross wiki harassment will get you blocked here. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I added more evidence and context. Eduardo G. 06:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) You simply cast aspersions as part of a cross wiki harassment campaign against someone over transgender related issues. You are not here to build an encyclopedia. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 06:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Your statement doesn't even make sense. Eduardo G. 06:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC) We can add WP:CIR to the reasons you are blocked then. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 06:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Am I? And where am I in violation of WP:CIR? Eduardo G. 06:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I used plain English and you said you couldn't comprehend it. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 06:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I thought it was pretty well determined in that prior ANI thread that DarwIn's edits and statements absolutely were transphobic and bigoted. Silverseren 06:07, 31 December 2024 (UTC) The reason for the AN/I opens is still the same, revenge. Eduardo G. 06:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I've read many of the posts on the Portuguese wiki, and it is pretty clear that the Skyshifter's complaint above is a deliberate expansion of drama from there. The Portugese wiki is not Uganda, people do not get banned there for being Trans, and former admins don't get banned without causing a lot of disruption. It is clear these two users really strongly dislike each other and need to stop interacting in any way.--Boynamedsue (talk) 06:59, 31 December 2024 (UTC) People obviously doesn't get banned for being trans. She was sysop there, commited some errors, but stayed there even after 5 months of being on estrogen. And the community knew it. What caused her block there was calling the project a sewage and then outbreaking and attacking other users. I suggest they get a two-way IBAN, at least, not the one-way as proposed on the other AN/I. Eduardo G. 07:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I would add that unless I'm missing something, the block discussion on the Portugese Misplaced Pages seems to have been started about 30 minutes before the ANI thread . It has no contributions by DarwIn . It is theoretically possible I guess it somehow factored into the motivation of Skyshifter opening the ANI thread, but this seems extremely unlikely. There's a good chance Skyshifter wasn't even aware of it when opening the thread. In other words, there's no reason to think Skyshifter was even aware they were likely going to be permanently blocked from pt at the time of opening the thread although they did say they weren't going to return. Nil Einne (talk) 07:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC) She opened an NI, ptwiki equivalent of AN/I against DarwIn with crazy arguments. You can see it here. It was prompty closed, and she was very well aware of the consequences she would face, and of the opening of the block discussion, and clearly opened the AN/I because of that reason. The block discussion started at 1130 UTC, and the AN/I was posted at 1300, at a time that Skyshifter had already taken notice of the discussion, as you can see here. Eduardo G. 07:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC) This is very blatantly a tit-for-tat. As mentioned above there is the distinct smell of fishiness about it, and as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log - yes, the editor who has three FAs on en.wiki "came to this project" to do this. Suggest this be promptly closed as I hear a WP:BOOMERANG inbound. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I am not saying she isn't an avid used of English wiki. I just stated that she took ptwiki matters here for revenge and self-fullfillment. Eduardo G. 07:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC) If you aren't asking for any sanctions against Skyshifter, then why did you open this sub-section, just to sling some mud at her? Give it a rest already, you're just creating more drama than is necessary. Isaidnoway (talk) 08:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I think that the background of this dispute is very relevant. Obviously, neither Skyshifter or Darwin should face any repercussions here for behaviour on pt.wiki, but it isn't possible to understand what is happening here without discussing what happened there. For me, having read what happened over there is the main reason I wouldn't yet TBAN Darwin, and would call for a two-way rather than one way interaction ban.--Boynamedsue (talk) 08:50, 31 December 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Incivility and ABF in contentious topics

Hob Gadling's uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it is problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:

Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883

WP:NPA

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324

Profanity

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966

Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877

Unicivil

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441

Contact on user page attempted

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795

Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Think this calls for a fierce trout slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a forced wikibreak according to WP:COOLDOWN, as this is just an angry user and frankly, I don't see direct personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as some diffs from the past few days are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. BarntToust 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Would I be the person to provide you with that further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions? I did think that it would be more than a WP:FISHSLAP, since that's for one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern warning. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Lardlegwarmers: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. Hob should know better, and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to WP:AVOIDEDITWAR. But I would caution you about WP:BOOMERANG and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your inappropriate recently deleted user page, removing sections from other people's talk page, and it seems like you're having a problem handling a WP:DISPUTE and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.

Furthermore it does appear that you might be WP:FORUMSHOPPING because your attempts at WP:POVPUSH for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. passively accusing editor behavior, directly accusing a specific editor bad behavior, claiming WP is political, RSN Report #1, RSN Report #2 to push for an article edit request, bringing the Covid discussion over to the teahouse, and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding Misplaced Pages's policy and guidelines and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards WP:CONSENSUS. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. TiggerJay (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. (All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution. ]) Thank you for your time and input.

Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: trying to report other editors in bad faith. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

@Lardlegwarmers: Jay brought something to my attention with a recent version of your user page. It looks like there is large language model (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason! I'm confused. This specific revision also assumes bad faith about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism. I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, since you are here at ANI now, what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT, in your own words. BarntToust 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @Thebiguglyalien, I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a formal warning or a trout slap is what needs to happen to Hob. BarntToust 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@IntrepidContributor, I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. please look at this diff on Lardle's user page for context, in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. BarntToust 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! *curtsy* Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". GiantSnowman 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' here? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word bullshit, which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, this supposed "disparag of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills" seems pretty temperate. And so on. Bishonen | tålk 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).

I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at this user page discussion where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - Palpable (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Hob Gadling failing to yield to WP:BLPRESTORE, apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. SmolBrane (talk) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Propose serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Recuse Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. SmolBrane (talk) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to BarntToust above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• As a note, Hob Gadling removed the ANI notice without comment and has not responded here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended discussion

Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. BarntToust 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) This comment is actually more of a personal attack then any of the diffs provided originally. Smartass, like a teenager, pissy, lalaland? That's some ageism, maybe commenting on mental health, and some silly insults. I don't think you should see any sanctions for this, but hopefully you compare your comments to the diffs. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 22:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) IP, how'd you get here? A person who calls things bullshit and generally isn't in a good mood around others, being condescending: saying that they are pissy and being a smartass is WP:SPADE. Teenagers are known for angst and pissy-ness and for having lip. Not insinuating they are a teenager, just that their behavior resembles that of. As you will recall, someone, somewhere in this derailed, miles-long trainwreck of an ANI report-turned morality seminar-turned COVID-19 fringe theory + pseudoscience debate, said that there is no policy against profanity. BarntToust 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC) If I tell User:ExampleA that they did an "amazing fuckin' job!" with a FA, that is different than calling User:ExampleB a "fuckin' wanker" because they botched a page move. Context is everything, and I get how we are all connecting through the two-dimensional medium of simple text and thus misunderstandings tend to occur, but tones like these aren't that hard to discern. BarntToust 23:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) When Michael De Santa shouts "fucking A!" after a job well done, that is not the same when he tells Trevor Philips that he is a "fucking psycho murderer". BarntToust 23:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) Right, and there are no egregious uncivil diffs either. So, how is Hob acting like a pissy teenager, but you aren't? Catch my drift? This is a nothing burger report, and the reporter should get a boomerang. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 00:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Hob's profanity is not amiable. It sours the collaboration with other editors. most importantly, it is undue. Mine is not undue, and is a statement of truth. BarntToust 01:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Provide a diff of something you believe is sanctionable. Your pile of personal attacks is making it unclear what you are trying to say. It's ok when you cuss, but it's bad if someone else does it? What? 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Profanity has nothing to do with it. The attitude is the thing that's wrong. The word "shit" can be said in many different ways. Some good, some bad. Have you even looked through these diffs of Hob's comments that have popped up through this ANI report? I also invite you to create an account. BarntToust 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) So, to recap, Houston: It's not what it is said that causes problems, it's how it is said that matters, and in what context. I call a pissy editor pissy because it's great to call a spade a spade. I can use profanity to describe someone's behaviour, and if I weigh words, I can even use it when addressing someone's contributions; i.e. "This is a really fuckin' well done article, User:Example". Hob calling someone's opinions bullshit is not the right thing to do. BarntToust 02:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC) I think you may refer to this as calling a spade a spade. When someone says we should ignore science because it has a COI with Covid-19, their opinion is bullshit. This is what you are defending. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Eh, you can say "That's WP:FRNG and WP:PSCI and does not constitute due weight as the subject is discussed in reliable sources". Calling a spade a spade is easy, while addressing content and user contributions in dispute should require more, IDK, poise. I can say "fucking awesome work!" to an editor about their GA and no harm can be meant by that in any feasible situation, but when addressing questionable content, it should be done with nuance, eh? You can call someone's work shit whose work isn't shit, but you pretty much can't call someone's work "fucking amazing" whose work isn't amazing, as calling work "fucking amazing" provides pretty much no point of contention, unless you were just bullshitting them for no reason or trying to be nice about a novice's contributions that in terms of quality, reflect their inexperience. This entire ANI report has derailed into pretty much every unrelated topic save debate over what the definition of "is" is. BarntToust 03:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC) I'm not worried about contexts when "strong language" is ok, and you can stop giving needless examples. I don't believe anything that violates our guidelines on civility took place at all in the diffs originally provided. Hob was reasonable in tone, and sometimes people are exasperated by nonsense. Being annoyed but mostly polite isn't actually against the rules. You will need better diffs to change my mind. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 06:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) The COI pertains only to a few authors in particular with a personal stake in the outcome of the investigation. For example, the article uses several sources co-authored by Dr. Zhengliang Shi who herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest This is a secondary peer-reviewed article, and several editors who call LL fringe stated it is RS. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 08:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing WP:FRINGE misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as here, and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as here. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. Silverseren 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) bullshit to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that that was what led Lardlewarmers to try and their target on their talk page, a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward WP:BOOMERANG situation. --Aquillion (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "turn over a new leaf" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to tell people to stop before it's too late and stop treating aggressive or uncivil behavior as a "lesser" crime. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a chronic and ongoing habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Silver_seren-20241231185800-Slatersteven-20241230182700) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type. As the Alien above said, you Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. now WP:DROPTHESTICK. TiggerJay (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to Misplaced Pages:Civility, the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the fallacies contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ad hominem, as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person (Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250103194100-Hob Gadling-20250102085800). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

For the record I do agree with you that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been bating you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, rather we depend on WP:RS and WP:UNDUE to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person. However, that is not what I read in that reply. Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! TiggerJay (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250105151700-Credibility_of_major_scientific_journals_on_Covid) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. TiggerJay (talk) 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a lesser offense. Simonm223 (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. Simonm223 (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

What you are describing is a different idea: the COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy theory. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus. the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ] The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.(]) Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Beyond what @Objective3000 said, for all parties, it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil WP:BRINE. TiggerJay (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Indeed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should not be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from WP:FTNCIVIL or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - Palpable (talk) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I am in the diffs.

I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - Palpable (talk) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above: Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.] Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended discussion

How ironic that you would call out canvass, when you haven't contributed to this discussion previously, nor have you contributed to any prior notice board. See WP:POTKETTLE, also please see WP:SOCK if you logged out just to make problematic edits here.... TiggerJay (talk) 05:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC) I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times, what are you talking about? IPs are only assigned for a few hours to weeks at a time usually. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 05:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC) @166.205.97.61: Okay let me say it another way... never in this history of this subject has an IP editor contributed. since January 1, ALL of the IP's who have contributed to ANI aside from your are blocked or had their contribution reverted. in the last 50,000 edits to this notice board, not a single anon has commented more than 34 times and that user was in Romania, whereas your IP shows US/Mobile, and they are currently blocked. Followed up an IPv6 with 30 edits, last participated in ANI back in May. Followed by a handful from the UK and other countries. The first one who is US based that was mobile has less than 12 edits, not hundreds. when you choose to edit anonymously (which is your privilege) you accept the reality that people will question your constructiveness because of a lack of established history. But beyond all of that, aren't you simply deflecting from the question brought up? Perhaps @Palpable has been lurking anonymously. As they have logged at least 31 edits to ANI alone . TiggerJay (talk) 05:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) There's a lot of strawmen there to knock down if I cared to derail this conversation, but I'm curious what question you think I'm deflecting? Your assumptions of bad faith are expected, but disappointing. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 06:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) What I claim you are deflecting KETTLE: Somehow you feel like you can call out someone who hasn’t contributed previously as canvassed, which is a serious allegation, yet that is exactly what your user account history appears reflect. When challenged, you claimed to have edited hundreds of time, which was rebutted with facts, you resorted to allegations. Interestingly they very closely mirror only one other person who liberally throws around terms like strawman and bad faith. And really only one person at ANI has ever held this view so strongly they would plainly say bad faith was “expected” from me . If your not that person, then my query is how did you get involved in this conversation, and when exactly do you proffer that you last edited on here as an IP constructively? However, if you are indeed that person, let me warn you, such activity is considered sock puppetry. (Of course editing while accidentally logged out is a human mistake. But persisting and pretending otherwise, is not.) TiggerJay (talk) 07:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) Don't know what this thread is about, but point 2 and 3 seem wrong - none of my IPs have been blocked, and I am an anon that has, in the last 5 thousand edits to this board I made 38 of them (all edits by IPs starting with 2804:F14), let alone in the last 50 thousand edits. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your claims. – 2804:F1...42:FDB7 (::/32) (talk) 06:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) I think my detail for you was accidentally edited out. You would be an IPv6 from a different country, so unless this IP user is claiming they have rotating IPs hourly because they’re using an international VPN connecting via various countries, I find their claim that they just stumbled upon this conversation dubious at best. TiggerJay (talk) 06:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) Also in case you were not aware, while mobile IP addresses can and do change, they still remain with that mobile carrier. So while your ip address will change, who all of those addresses are registered to will not. What I mean is that will your current IP goes back to a US based cell network, you’re not going to get a new IP address that is registered in Japan or even one in the US that is through a completely different network (a few technical exceptions exist, but they’re nevertheless evident). Same with home internet as well. And of course, most work addresses are persistent. All that to say, a claim of “my ip address changes” does not mean that a persona cannot reasonably determine if you’ve contributed to ANI from the a network. TiggerJay (talk) 07:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) When did I say I stumbled upon this thread? Provide the diff. You are putting words in my mouth and casting aspersions. I said my IP changes as a response to you saying I was a new editor. You are creating an elaborate narrative and getting strangely defensive. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 07:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) I will gladly provide the answe after you answer the two questions I have previously asked to you. First was about KETTLE, and the second asked you to substantiate your claim of I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times by providing your last contrustive ip edit to this notice board. TiggerJay (talk) 07:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) Please read WP:SATISFY. I'm not going to link all of my comments across IPs here for you. If you really believe I was canvassed, you need some diffs, or maybe you should strike your aspersions. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 07:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC) All I can do is laugh at your replies. More KETTLE behavior. You claim don’t have to proof anything per SATISFY, yet in the same breath you demand such of others. More ad hominem, deflection. Zero actual replies. TiggerJay (talk) 08:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) What are you talking about? I asked one question, got one answer and it was done. It was you who started a long thread full of bad faith assumptions and no diffs. Provide diffs, or kindly stop bludgeoning. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 08:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

1. Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400

Send to AE?

Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to WP:AE since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".

That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - Palpable (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The IP made no such claim? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - Palpable (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

FYI WP:AE is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

That's what I had thought, but the not logged in guy seems to be saying that a civility complaint should be moved to AE because it's a better venue for "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".

It's really striking to me that the main argument here is not over whether Hob is civil, it's whether he should have to be. - Palpable (talk) 20:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. Zaathras (talk) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why wp:Being right is not enough is policy.

Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. User:Barkeep49/Friends don't let friends get sanctioned. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. SmolBrane (talk) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I second to motion to bring this to WP:AE. BarntToust 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Edit warring to prevent an RFC

@Axad12 has removed an RFC tag from Talk:Breyers#Request for comment on propylene glycol now twice within an hour.

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Reasons and ways to end RfCs provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list.

We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an Misplaced Pages:Ownership of content problem or a Misplaced Pages:Walled garden that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm not saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in some cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute.

I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/FAQ. See you tomorrow. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC.

I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith.

The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. Axad12 (talk) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. Axad12 (talk) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Axad12, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have absolutely no conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. Cullen328 (talk) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Axad12, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. WhatamIdoing, a {{trout}} for WP:GRENADEing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template.

The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. Axad12 (talk) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be falsely accused of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that exceptionally serious abuse? Cullen328 (talk) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request.

I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request).

As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content.

Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. Axad12 (talk) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

"Asking a second time" is not WP:Gaming the system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. Axad12 (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the WP:UPPERCASE. See, e.g., An editor gaming the system is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support. Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy.

I also direct your attention to the item that says Gaming the system may include...Filibustering the consensus-building process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to WP:GAMINGTHESYSTEM, which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. Axad12 (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not highly misleading.

I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. Axad12 (talk) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? Phil Bridger (talk) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved.

I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. Axad12 (talk) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when WP:COIN can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one fad diet book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer.

But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my not-inconsiderable experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself.

It isn't really relevant here but actually I didn't expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. Axad12 (talk) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor tag-teamed with Graywalls, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article. Both users refused collaboration on the Breyers article content at DRN.

Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue.

Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (article link) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative.

Proposal: Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and here, as another example, Axad12 and Graywalls should be A-banned from the Breyers article and its talk page.

• Support. Zefr (talk) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Strike as withdrawn for Axad12 ABAN to concur with Cullen328 and the oppose decisions below.

Graywalls is a separate case remaining undecided here. Over the 2024 article and talk page history at Breyers, this user was the main purveyor of disinformation, and has not acknowledged his talk page hostility and errors of judgment, despite abundant presentation of facts, sources, explanations, and challenges for information below. Graywalls should commit to abstain from editing the Breyers article for a given period, as Axad has done. Zefr (talk) 00:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@Zefr:, your domineering and territoriality to that article is a big part of escalation and if anyone, it should be you who should refrain from it. Blatantly disregarding consensus and going so far as saying Statements of facts supported by reliable sources do not need talk page consensus. as done in here which goes to show you feel you're above consensus. You weren't persuaded until you were corrected by two administrors Aoidh and Philknight on the matter on the belief you're entitled to insert certain things against consensus. You also were blocked for the fifth time for edit warring in that article, with previous ones being at different articles with dispute with other editors, which shows your lack of respect for community decision making. Graywalls (talk) 17:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, your concept of what was a false consensus has been dismissed by the RfC result, so you should move on from this bitterness and distortion of truth. In reply to Aoidh and Philknight at the Breyers talk page, I stated in my next comment, "Yes, a key word unintentionally omitted in my response concerning statements and sources was "verifiable". As there are few watchers/editors of the Breyers article (62 as of today, probably many from Unilever who do not edit), I provided statements of facts verified by reliable sources, whereas this simple practice appears to not be in your editing toolkit.

The obligation remaining with you in this discussion is to respond to Cullen's 2-paragraph summary of your behavior below in the section, The actual content that led to this dispute. Let's have your response to that, and your pledge to abstain from editing the Breyers article - you did say on the talk page on 29 Nov that you would "delegate the actual editing to someone else." I think your defiance to respond to challenges in this discussion section affirms my recommendation that you are ABANNED from the Breyers article and IBANNED from attacking me because you are unable to face the facts. Zefr (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

It was a no commitment suggestion that someone, meaning neither YOU or I. Not that Zefr continue editing and not I. Your controlling, WP:OWN approach was a significant portion of the problem. Additionally, you proposed administrative sanctions against me, but did not tell me about it as required. I only figured out after someone told me about it on my talk page. Why did you do that? Graywalls (talk) 19:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

You had already been notified of the problem you caused at the Breyers article in this talk edit on 5 Jan. Now, you are engaged in conspicuous deflection to avoid answering the Cullen328 paragraphs and the several requests for you to explain and own up to your disruptive behavior and non-collaboration. Regarding OWN, there are few editors at Breyers. I countered your attempts to slander the article with the "antifreeze" term and bogus diet book references by applying verifiable facts and sources.

OWN:"Being the primary or sole editor of an article does not constitute ownership, provided that contributions and input from fellow editors are not ignored or immediately disregarded. Editors familiar with the topic and in possession of relevant reliable sources may have watchlisted such articles and may discuss or amend others' edits. This too does not equal ownership, provided it does not marginalise the valid opinions of others and is adequately justified." If you had offered valid content and sources, I would have collaborated.

I'm sure editors have seen enough of your personal grievances expressed here. Please stop. I'm not returning unless an exception occurs. Zefr (talk) 20:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

• You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Oppose: I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard.

  I have not ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them.

  Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024.

  I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make.

  Also, the idea that I made a hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect.

  I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time.

  Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at WP:COIN, but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. Axad12 (talk) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. here, because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see User_talk:DMacks#Breyers_disruptive_editing for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling Special:Diff/1261441062. @Aoidh: also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see Special:Diff/1257252695 Graywalls (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'd just like to echo that sentiment. I'm all in favour of consensus.

  My position on this article hasn't been motivated by a partisan view on Propylene Glycol but has simply been in relation to serving the consensus position as it stood at the time. That is the approach I hope I adopt on all Misplaced Pages articles. If the consensus alters on this article (as seems likely) then I'll adopt the same approach in relation to serving the new consensus.

  My primary area of interest on this website is COI issues. I'm simply not interested in content disputes or in pushing any kind of POV on Misplaced Pages. I'm not the sort of user who flagrantly disregards a newly emerging consensus by editing contrary to the outcome of an RfC.

  I'd welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that going forwards (i.e. without an article ban). Axad12 (talk) 06:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  • The mention by Graywalls for an RfC on 27 Dec had no influence on the one existing. As an uncomplicated process, an editor truly sincere in having community input would have posed a simple objective question. Graywalls, why didn't you take 5 minutes and create the RfC question you wanted? What would have been your RfC question?

  Specifically for propylene glycol (you are still defending its use in the article by adding another garbage source yesterday - see comments about this book in the RfC): what do you believe propylene glycol does in a frozen dessert and what would you prefer the article to say about propylene glycol? I have asked for this clarification on the talk page many times and in the DRN, but you ignored the opportunity to collaborate and clarify.

  Have you read the sources in this talk page topic?

  Your reverts in article history and combative talk page behavior over months revealed a persistent intent to disparage the Breyers article, focus on the "antifreeze" slur (mainly promoting this source), and restore a skeletal version having no sources more recent than 2018 here, after tag-teaming with Axad12 to do your bidding on 17 Nov. That version also has misinformation under the section 'Ice cream', falsely stating that Breyers changed their ice cream ingredients by using other additives, which in fact, were used to evolve a new category of frozen desserts not intended to be ice cream. I believe you know this, but you and Axad12 persisted to favor misinformation for the article.

  The RfC I provided came from steps in the lead of WP:RFC: 1) generally poor talk page progress, where one editor seeking facts verified by current sources was opposed by Graywalls, Adax12, and NutmegCoffeeTea, all defending a version including "antifreeze"; 2) an RSN post here where Graywalls argued that a web link by the Seattle PI made the Motley Fool article an RS; 3) initiate DRN for which Graywalls, Axad12, and NutmegCoffeeTea abstained from collaboration to improve the article; 4) providing a science- and law-based talk page topic on 19 Dec, which appears to be willfully ignored by Axad12 and Graywalls, who responded only with hostility and defiance against the facts; 5) seeking third opinions from admins, first by BD2412 (talk page on 29-30 Nov) and by DMacks on 27 Dec, resulting in verbose trolling by these two users. Axad12's response on 27 Dec was to revert constructive edits and tag-team with Graywalls.

  Axad12 and Graywalls should be ABANNED from the Breyers article for exhibiting 1) hostility on the talk page to good faith proposals for making the article better, and 2) persistence to perpetuate misinformation on propylene glycol. Simply, what history shows that either editor has tried to improve the Breyers article? Both users meet most of the definitions of WP:NOTHERE for the article, its talk page, and the RfC. Zefr (talk) 18:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Zefr, I've already indicated on several occasions that I welcome and support the developing new consensus. Graywalls has made a similar comment below. That being the case, I don't really see what purpose an article ban would be intended to serve.

  Admittedly there has been some quite heated disagreement over recent months, but it seems that we all now have the robust talkpage consensus that we were hoping for in one way or another and that all three of us are happy to move forward in support of that consensus.

  You were clearly in the minority for quite a long time and I can appreciate that you found that experience frustrating. However, to continue to make allegations above of bad faith, trolling, tagteaming, etc. about those who constituted the valid majority for several months is just an attempt to perpetuate strife on an issue which is now, as far as I can see, satisfactorily resolved. Axad12 (talk) 19:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Filed under: sometimes you hurt articles by treating COI editors as the enemy. The problem here is two users who should really know better edit-warring over the course of months to reinstate TikTok diet influencer silliness into a Misplaced Pages article, repeatedly reinstating WP:PROFRINGE content (implicitly, if not explicitly). We currently treat a little "avoid antifreeze" bubble in a diet book (which includes Breyers in a list of brands) and a book published by one of RFK Jr's antivax publishers as WP:DUE for including the insinuation that an FDA-approved and much-conspiratorialized additive is harmful. They've been repeatedly removed, but two editors keep putting them back, whether because of a misunderstanding of WP:MEDRS/WP:FRINGE or in pursuit of COI purification. — Rhododendrites \\ 13:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  I take your point but I think you're misjudging the situation somewhat. Prior to the opening of the current RfC it was approximately 6 or 7 users in favour of inclusion vs 3 or 4 favouring exclusion. I only reverted the attempts at exclusion because those attempts were contrary to the talk page consensus.

  I'm perfectly open to the suggestion that that consensus position was wrong but the simple fact of the matter was that there was at that time no consensus in favour of exclusion.

  It has only been in the last couple of days that the requesting editor has been able to demonstrate a consensus in favour of exclusion. And that's great, I have no problem with that at all. In fact I welcome it.

  My understanding is that editors wishing to make changes to article text should not do so if there is a consensus against what they are trying to do, and that under such circumstances an edit can be (indeed should be) reverted. If I'm mistaken on that score then I'm perfectly happy to take instruction. However, I really want to stress that my actions were based primarily upon that reasoning and were made in good faith. Axad12 (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Axad12, you should not revert something because other editors want it to be reverted. You should only make content changes that you personally support. This is necessary for BRD to work. See WP:BRDREVERT for an explanation of why. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Rhododendrites:, the antifreeze matter is WP:DEADHORSE since I believe everyone's pretty much agreed it doesn't need to be in there. Zefr has taken issues with me, Axad12, NutMegCoffee and possibly some others. They've tried to get the article "set in place" to their preferred version, but that was declined admin Daniel Case who determined it to be content dispute Special:Diff/1260192461. Zefr inferring alleging I was "uncooperative" not collaborating/cooperating in the way that he was hoping in DR, but I don't believe that to be so. There was nothing intentional on my part to not cooperate. I'll see if @Robert McClenon: would like to share their observation on that since they closed the dispute.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Breyers/Archive_2#c-Rusalkii-20240814014600-Inkian_Jason-20240801145900 here's another uninvolved editoring erring on the side of inclusion. A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus. Reading through the current plus the archived discussions, up until the RfC, the general consensus is in support of having PG mention and Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus. As I mentioned, if consensus changes with the RfC, I'm not opposed to going with that. Graywalls (talk) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) (adjusted Graywalls (talk) 13:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC))

  For the record, I never stated the word "uncooperative" at DRN or the Breyers talk page, but rather "non-collaborative", as discussed in the thread with Robert McClenon below.

  "Set in place to their preferred version" and "Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus" should be translated to using "facts verified by reliable sources", which is the simple goal for the Breyers article that Graywalls has obstructed over months.

  It's incredible that Graywalls says even today above, knowing the comments on the RfC and months of being presented with facts and sources about why propylene glycol is safely used in thousands of manufactured foods: "A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus."

  Here's your chance to tell everyone:

  Why do you feel propylene glycol was used in Breyers frozen desserts (in 2013, not since)? What concern do you have about it, and what government or scientific source says it's unsafe in the amounts regulated by federal laws? Give a sentence here that you think meets consensus and uses a reliable source. Zefr (talk) 01:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

  You're right, you did not use that specific word. I've corrected my response due to wording. Graywalls (talk) 13:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

A Non-Mediator's Statement

I am not entirely sure why User:Graywalls has pinged me about this dispute, saying that I "closed this dispute". The accuracy of the statement that I "closed this dispute" depends on what is meant by "this dispute".

I closed the DRN thread, Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_252#Breyers, on 12 December. I obviously didn't resolve a dispute that has been continuing for another three weeks, and the claim that I closed the dispute looks to me like an attempt to confuse the jury. User:Zefr had opened the DRN thread on 3 December, complaining about the insertion of the word antifreeze and of the mention of propylene glycol. I was not entirely sure beyond the mention of antifreeze what the issues were. There were questions about what the procedure was for handling a one-against-many dispute; I think that Zefr was said to be the one. There was a long question that may have been about whether DRN is voluntary; DRN is voluntary. Then Zefr said that the case could be withdrawn because no one else was commenting. The disputants other than Zefr never did say exactly what the article content issues were, perhaps because they didn't want to discuss article content, and were not required to discuss article content. If anyone is implying that I resolved or settled anything, I have no idea what it was.

I see that the dispute either was continuing in other forums for three weeks, or has reopened. I see that User:Axad12 edit-warred to prevent an RFC from running, making vague but noisy statements about conflict of interest. I don't know who is said to be working for Unilever or for anyone else. It is clear that this dispute is longer on antagonism than on clarity. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon:, I pinged you, because I felt you'd be a good commentator to evaluate whether you also felt I was "not cooperative" in the process as Zefr says. I tried to participate, but it got closed shortly after I posted a comment in it. Graywalls (talk) 22:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Was that purposely mis-stated to be provocative and mislead the discussion here?

I said you were non-collaborative, which describes your behavior throughout your editing history on the Breyers article, its talk page, and the DRN. You refused collaboration at DRN, which is the whole point of the process. DRN FAQ: "refusing participation can be perceived as a refusal to collaborate, and is not conducive to consensus-building."

You were notified about the DRN on your talk page on 3 Dec, and you posted a general notice about it on the Breyers talk page on 6 Dec, so you were aware of the process, but ignored it. Meanwhile, your editing history over 6-12 Dec shows dozens of edits, including many on the Breyers talk page.

You made no attempt to collaborate at DRN, posting only one off-topic comment on 12 Dec.

I requested closure of the DRN on 12 Dec due to non-participation by you and the others. On 13 Dec, I notified the Breyers talk page of the DRN closure. cc: Robert McClenon. Zefr (talk) 00:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Zefr:, As been said to you by others, participation is not mandatory. Other editors are not required to and you shouldn't reasonably expect them to prioritize their real life schedule or their Misplaced Pages time on dispute that you runs on your own schedule to your DRN you started around your own schedule on your own terms. I have initially waited to give others time to comment as their time allows. I'm also not particularly fond of your berating, incivil, bad faith assuming comments directed at myself, as well as a few other editors and it's exhausting discussing with you, so I'm not feeling particularly compelled to give your matters priority in my Misplaced Pages time. Graywalls (talk) 06:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

A Possibly Requested Detail

Okay. If the question is specifically whether User:Graywalls was uncooperative at DRN, then I can state that they were not uncooperative and did not obstruct or disrupt DRN. Graywalls took very little part in the DRN proceeding before I closed it. They were not required to take part, although they say that they would have made a statement if the case had stayed open a little longer. The antagonism that I saw was between User:Zefr and User:Axad12, and I collapsed an exchange between them. I did not read what I am told were long previous discussions, because I expect the disputants at DRN to begin by telling me concisely what each of them wants to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Graywalls was not uncooperative at DRN. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay. User:Zefr is making a slightly different statement, that User:Graywalls did not collaborate at DRN. That is correct. And I noted above that their mention that I had closed the dispute depended on what was meant by the "dispute". and looked like an attempt to confuse the jury. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon Zefr did not use the word uncooperative although did say uncollaborative and I used the two interchangeably in my ping. I did participate in it Special:Diff/1262763079. I haven't participated in DRN until that point, so I wasn't really sure how it worked. Graywalls (talk) 13:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The actual content that led to this dispute

Two month ago, Breyers included this shockingly bad content: As of 2014, some flavors of Breyer's ice cream contains propylene glycol as an additive. Propylene glycol is a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze and it is clear fluid made by "treating propylene with chlorinated water to form the chlorohydrin, which is then converted to the glycol, an alcohol, by treating it with a sodium carbonate solution." Propylene glycol is formulated into Breyer's fat-free and Carb Smart ice cream to make it easier to scoop. The notion that an article about an ice cream company should include a detailed description of how a Generally recognized as safe food additive is manufactured is bizarre enough, as is the cherrypicked and glaringly misleading assertion about "antifreeze", but the reference used to support the Breyers claim was a book called Eat It to Beat It!: Banish Belly Fat-and Take Back Your Health-While Eating the Brand-Name Foods You Love! written by a quack/crank diet profiteer named David Zinczenko. I invite any editor to take a search engine look at Zinczenko's body of work, and come away with the conclusion that his writings are anything other than fringe and unreliable. Despite the glaringly obviously non-neutral and tendentious problems with this shockingly bad content, editors including most prominently Graywalls and Axad12 dug in their heels, fighting a reargard action for nearly two months, determined to make this mundane routine ice cream company look as bad as possible. Their self-justification seems to be that big bad corporations have no right whatsover to try to remove atrociously bad content about their products from Misplaced Pages, and that any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association. I am not an advocate for corporations per se, but I am an advocate for corporations being treated neutrally like all other topics, rather with disdain and contempt, which was the case here, as I see it. I do not know what the best outcome is here, but I certainly encourage these two editors to refrain from any other unjustified and poorly referenced anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end. Cullen328 (talk) 07:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

A striking and shocking aspect of this sordid situation is that two editors, Graywalls and Axad12 were able to concoct a false "consensus" supporting various versions of this garbage content. And then when another editor tried to start a RFC about the appallingly bad content, Axad12 tried over and over and over again to stop the RFC and defend the atrocious content rather than correcting it, aided and abetted by Graywalls. When the RFC actually went live, it soon became clear that many editors agreed that the content these two editors advocated for was utterly inappropriate. Cullen328 (talk) 08:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Cullen,

As per my comments above, my motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time. I did not concoct that consensus, at least 5 users other than me were against excluding the material.

I have never had any particularly strong opinion one way or the other on the content issue and I try as best as I can not to get involved in content disputes. I have not dug in heels or attempted to promote any kind of fringe opinion and nor have I engaged in anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end.

Similarly I do not hold the view that any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association, or any opinion even vaguely resembling that view. On the contrary, I have often implemented COI edit requests on behalf of corporations or have pointed out to corporate employees how such requests would need to be amended to conform with sourcing or other requirements. Repeatedly engaging in that activity would presumably make me very evil indeed, in my own eyes, if I held the view that you attribute to me.

I reverted the Breyer edits in good faith because there was no consensus in favour of them. If I was incorrect on a point of policy in that regard then fair enough, however please do not attempt to attribute to me sentiments which I do not harbour.

Also, I did not attempt to stop the RfC over and over and over again. I removed the tag twice, then requested guidance from administrators and immediately replaced the tag when requested to do so. The tag was removed, in all, for a matter of minutes and had no meaningful impact on the progress of the RfC. I have accepted elsewhere that I now appreciate that the basis on which I removed the tag was inappropriate. I have also stated that From my standpoint wasn't a process that I was familiar with - but I can see from the many excellent contributions here that this is the best way of resolving content disputes. I have also stated that I welcome and support the new consensus. Axad12 (talk) 08:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , Axad12, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. Cullen328 (talk) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I obviously dislike Breyers or (their parent company) Unilever, or indeed that I consider either to be evil?

To the best of my recollection, I've only ever made 3 mainspace edits to the Breyers article - each time on the stated basis in the edit summary that the edit I was reverting was contrary to consensus.

I've re-read the extensive talk page discussions in recent days and I can only see that I ever commented on the COI angle and the nature of the consensus. Those comments were based on my understanding of policy at the time. I do not see anti-corporate diatribes or evidence that I obviously dislike Breyers or Unilever.

Indeed, I do not hold any particularly strong views on Breyers, Unilever or any other corporations. Axad12 (talk) 09:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

As I said, Axad12, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to Talk: Breyers to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. Cullen328 (talk) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

My activity on that talk page has solely been in relation to pointing out what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was a valid COI concern and observing that from Aug to Dec there has never been a consensus in favour of exclusion.

Anything beyond that is simply you attributing motives that do not exist.

I have never stated or implied that a corporation does not deserve neutrality and nor do I hold such a view.

I happily admit that I'm quite animated and enthusiastic about COI issues and reverting edits which appear to be contrary to consensus. With the benefit of hindsight probably I should have let go of those issues at an earlier stage and vacated the field for those who actually had an appetite to argue on content grounds.

I'd also point out that for a significant part of the last 2 months I had actually unsubscribed from the relevant talkpage threads and only ended up getting involved again due to being summoned to the Dispute Resolution thread. If I had been determined over the last two months to maintain various versions of biased non-neutral content then hopefully it stands to reason that I would not have unsubscribed in that way - thus resulting in a situation where I was actually completely unaware of much of the talkpage and mainspace activity over the period that you refer to. Axad12 (talk) 10:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time. You are also obligated to actually look at the disputed content and the sources supporting it. Why didn't you do that? Why were you unable to see what multiple editors in the RfC are commenting about? You shouldn't just blindly revert content like that, without taking a look for yourself to see if the complaint about the disputed content has any merit, like it being reliably sourced and due for inclusion. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

That's a very fair question.

The answer is that I was inclined to believe the opinions of editors much more experienced than myself who were against exclusion, particularly the editor who turned down the original COI edit request (whose work on COI edit requests I have the greatest of respect for).

User Whatamidoing has already pointed out above that my error lay in accepting those users' opinions. I agree with Whatamidoing's observation there.

I can only say that what I did was done in good faith based on my understanding of policy at the time. I now know where I erred (in several different ways) and I am glad to have received instruction in that regard.

However, I really cannot accept the repeated suggestion that I vindictively masterminded a long anti-corporate campaign to keep bad material in an article. That suggestion is fundamentally not true. Axad12 (talk) 10:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I entirely accept that.

For clarity, when I said my understanding of policy at the time I meant my understanding of policy at the time - I wasn't trying to suggest that the policy has changed since I made those edits.

What I am saying is that those edits were not made with malice, they were made because I accepted the opinions of other users more experienced than myself, opinions which I now know that I ought to have questioned. Axad12 (talk) 11:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

As I said earlier in this thread, I am 100% supportive of the new consensus in favour of excluding the previously disputed material.

Virtually all of my time on Misplaced Pages is spent at COIN and dealing with COI edit requests. I'm not the sort of user who spends their time edit warring over POV fringe material and generally being disruptive.

So, the last thing I would ever do is attempt to reinstall material where a very robust consensus at RfC has indicated that it should be excluded.

I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that I can be trusted in that regard. Axad12 (talk) 12:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, quite so. I have acknowledged my error in that regard in my first response to Isaidnoway, above, re: the very useful input I received from Whatamidoing. Axad12 (talk) 17:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Axad, if I read what you wrote correctly, and please correct me if I misunderstand: I will stay away from that article because I support the current consensus. My concern is what if consensus was to shift on that article? TiggerJay (talk) 17:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Apologies if my earlier response was unclear. My point was that I have absolutely no intention of edit warring over the previously disputed material (or any other material) so I don't see what purpose it would serve to ban me from the article.

I have only ever made (to the best of my knowledge) 3 previous edits to the article (1 in November and 2 in December?). These were all on the basis of a misunderstanding on a point of policy which has been pointed out to me above and which I have happily acknowledged and accepted. The issue at stake was not that I harbour any partisan view in relation to the content dispute, it was that I edited to reflect the views of other editors whose opinions I respected on the matter in question.

I do not see any reason for the community to anticipate that I would made a similar misunderstanding of policy going forwards.

Hopefully this clarifies... Axad12 (talk) 17:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I've been expecting something to happen around User:Axad12, whom I ran into several months ago during a dispute at COIN. What I noticed back in October was that Axad12 seemed to be clerking the noticeboard, making prosecutorial noises, and sometimes unsupported accusations (ex: ...the existence of COI seems quite clear... 1, ...in relation to your undeclared conflict of interest... 2, As I said, the fact that there was a significant undeclared conflict of interest in relation to editing on Paralympic Australia-related articles was demonstrated some years ago. 3) towards what they thought of as COI editors (this was about whether User:Hawkeye7 had failed to adequately announce their conflict with Paralympic Australia, where they've been openly helping as a volunteer on our community's behalf for many years, and after they had just made an almost invisible contribution on the Signpost). I often find such clerking of noticeboards by relatively unseasoned users to be troublesome; Axad12 has 490 edits at COIN, about 12% of their total 3801 edits (but about a third of the roughly 1500 edits total on COIN since September). If you use a hammer all day, you might begin to think that all objects are potentially nails. BusterD (talk) 12:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin tried to close the thread and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. BusterD (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea for Axad12 to take a break from WP:COIN and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. BusterD (talk) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

In fairness, the overwhelming majority of my posts at COIN over the last year or so have been simple helpful contributions. The two matters discussed above were atypical and in both cases I've taken on board the advice I was given.

If (per the figures above) I've been making about a third of all the contributions at COIN over that period then my behaviour would have been reported here long ago if I was either disruptive or incompetent.

That said, I won't deny that I've been seriously considering retiring from Misplaced Pages over the last two months. The only reason I've not done so is because other users have specifically encouraged me to carry on because they value my work at COIN and on COI issues generally.

All I can say is that what I have done, I have done in good faith and when I have occasionally erred I have learned lessons. I have acknowledged above that I've made mistakes and I'm grateful to those who have given me advice. Axad12 (talk) 15:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard is not the high achievement you might think it is. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. BusterD (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Buster, I know that we've had crossed words in the past so I'm grateful for your understanding and your measured response above. Yes, I deal with many bad faith users and yes it does wear on me sometimes.

I don't claim any great expertise in COI matters but I do have the time to dedicate to the project and I've picked up a decent awareness of the methods that can be used to detect and prevent UPE/PROMO etc activity.

I believe that in the past when I've been given advice on points of policy I've taken that advice on board and would hope to continue to do so in the future. Axad12 (talk) 17:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

This comment is not about you, but you might be interested in it: I've been thinking for years that a rotating duty system might be helpful. Of course we're all WP:VOLUNTEERS, but we might be less stressed, and get more representative results, if we each spent a week at ANI and a month at RSN and a week at CCI each year than if one editor spends all year at ANI and another spends all year at RSN (and nobody is at CCI – anyone who is looking for an opportunity to deal with really serious problems should please consider spending some time at Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations. The few regulars there will be so grateful, and who knows? You might find that you like it). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Crosstraining? BusterD (talk) 20:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• I do think that it's worth zooming out and looking at the article as a whole. Comparing the version from before the current rewrites started to the current version makes it obvious that the tone of the article has become vastly more promotional, with much more focus on glowy feel-good aspects that are only mentioned in lower-quality sources (the story about the original creator hand-churning it?) And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) to the weird In 2013, Breyers introduced frozen desserts made with food additives (section above) that were intended to create smooth, low-calorie products. However, the new desserts evoked complaints by some consumers who were accustomed to the traditional "all-natural" Breyers ice cream., which 100% reads like marketing-speak (downplaying the reaction by making it sound like it's just that people loved the old version so much. In fact, the current version doesn't mention Breyer's cost-cutting measures at all, even though it's a massive aspect of coverage.) That doesn't necessarily justify the version above, but it's important to remember that this was originally a one-word mention in a larger list - Following similar practices by several of their competitors, Breyers' list of ingredients has expanded to include thickeners, low-cost sweeteners, food coloring and low-cost additives — including natural additives such as tara gum and carob bean gum; artificial additives such as maltodextrin and propylene glycol; and common artificially separated and extracted ingredients such as corn syrup, whey, and others, the longstanding wording, is not unreasonable and doesn't really imply that there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol, just that it's an additive. I think the context of that larger shift to a much more promotional tone to the article is significant (and looking over talk, most of the actual dispute has focused on that.) --Aquillion (talk) 17:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

  I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the source being used doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was added back here as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Aquillion, about this And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) – I don't know what other sources say, but the cited sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually WP:Directly support a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

  (As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at Talk:Breyers instead of here.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Aquillion, WhatamIdoing, and Isaidnoway: would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? Graywalls (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I don't mind, but my contribution to this thread is relatively minor. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, and a Diddly Question

I would like to thank User:Cullen328 for providing the background and content information. I also have a possibly minor question for User:Axad12. They edit-warred to try to stop the RFC on the content, and said that there was an exceptionally serious abuse of the conflict of interest process. I may not have done enough background research, but I don't see where they have identified who has been the paid editor or undisclosed paid editor, or what the conflict of interest content is. If there has been paid editing, who has done it, and have they been dealt with? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Robert, probably the best single overview of the COI issue is given in this post .

My impression at the time of the events, and subsequently, was that the activity was designed to distort the COI edit request process. I still feel that what happened re: the COI edit requests was irregular but I note that no other user seems to have supported me in that regard so I've not taken the matter any further. Similarly, while I felt that those events had a bearing on the RfC I now accept that the RfC relates solely to the content matter specifically under discussion. Axad12 (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I find your characterization of events inaccurate. You stated "we have the resubmission of the request to remove the disputed material in a COI edit request thread here "

But this was not a resubmission. The original COI request was to remove a list of ingredients (including propylene glycol) which was sourced to a blog and which the COI editor says is outdated and doesn't reflect current ingredients. Meanwhile, the link you give as an example of "resubmission" was the COI editor requesting the removal of "the recent content addition related to propylene glycol". Both requests involve propylene glycol, but they are clearly separate requests concerning separate content.

We want COI editors to propose changes to talk pages. The fact that this COI editor, apparently frustrated by a lack of responses to their requests went to the Food and Drink Wikiproject to request someone look at their edits, and then went to an active participant of said Wikiproject and requested they look at their requests, is not suspicious or abnormal. And I think it's highly inappropriate how Axad12 argued at length on the talk page that User:Zefr was "cultivated" by the COI editor "to do their bidding". I support other editors in recommending Axad12 take a break from COI issues. Photos of Japan (talk) 00:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd just like to stress here that I only linked to my post above because Robert McClenon asked for the background to the COI element. I was not trying to re-open that issue or to request that any action be taken on that issue. I have already accepted that there is absolutely no support for the position I adopted there. Axad12 (talk) 04:00, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

This doesn't answer my question. The link is to a conversation between User:Axad12, User:Graywalls, and administrator User:DMacks. The links from that conversation show that there is antagonism between Axad12 and Graywalls on the one hand and User:Zefr on the other hand. They show that there is discussion of conflict of interest, but they show no direct evidence of conflict of interest editing by any editor. They don't answer who is said to be a paid editor making edit requests, aside from the fact that paid editors are supposed to make edit requests rather than editing directly, so I am still not sure what the issue is. I haven't seen any evidence of abuse, let alone of exceptionally serious abuse that warranted edit-warring to prevent an RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The paid editor is User:Inkian Jason who is open and transparent about their COI. The edit request which began this episode was when Inkian Jason began this discussion where they pinged User:Zefr about having uploaded a photo of the company's logo and asking if they would be willing to add it to the article. Secondary to that they also asked about the appropriateness of the recently added propylene glycol content. The COI issues centered around whether Inkian Jason "cultivated" Zefr by pinging him to remove the added propylene glycol text after they had previously requested the deletion of a sentence about the various ingredients used in the ice cream (which included propylene glycol). Photos of Japan (talk) 05:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal 2: Article Ban of Axad12 from Breyers

(Proposal 1 has been lost up in the early postings.) I propose that User:Axad12 be article-banned from Breyers and Talk:Breyers for six months. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. Axad12 (talk) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite article ban, an I-ban with Zefr, and a topic ban on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? EducatedRedneck (talk) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  The purpose of the counter proposal was simply to indicate that I have only good intentions going forwards and I am happy to demonstrate those intentions upon pain of the strongest possible sanction. Evidently I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking, as I'm aware that eyes will understandably be upon me going forwards.

  As I've said before, I'm a good faith user and I'm amenable to taking instruction when I have erred. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that without being subject to a formal ban. Axad12 (talk) 05:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on pain of an indefinite site ban. "A rose by any other name" comes to mind here. Your voluntary adherence to the terms of the proposal would be indistinguishable from being compelled into adherence by threat of an indef. If you still want this course of action, fair enough, I just don't think it'll do what you're envisioning. EducatedRedneck (talk) 05:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I really don't recommend that, Axad. Sure, take a break from that article if you want to. But it's really easy to forget about a dispute years later, or even for a company to change names and suddenly you're on that article without knowing it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  For clarification, I would be happy to undertake voluntarily any measures that the community may suggest and upon pain of any sanction that the community may suggest. I believe that there is value to undertaking such measures voluntarily because it allows one to demonstrate that one can be trusted.

  Also just a brief note to say that in about an hour and a quarter's time I will have no internet access for the next 12-14 hours. Any lack of response during that period will simply be for that reason and not due to a wilful refusal to communicate. Hopefully I have indicated above that I have been happy to respond to all questions.

  No doubt matters will progress in my absence and I will find out my fate upon my return. Axad12 (talk) 05:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support as less stringent than what Axad has proposed above within this section, but still prevents further disruption. EducatedRedneck (talk) 06:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose because Axad12 seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. Cullen328 (talk) 08:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. I also oppose Axad12's counter proposal. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose Given Cullen328's comment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. I just don't see a need for such strict measures. Photos of Japan (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose the formal sanction, but I do support Axad12s voluntary sanction = I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr ... I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking. Isaidnoway (talk) 22:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal 3: Article Ban of Axad12 from COIN

Clerking at COIN seems to have given User:Axad12 the idea that everyone whom they don't know is probably a paid editor, and something has given them the idea that they can identify "exceptionally serious abuse" without providing direct evidence. I propose that User:Axad12 be article-banned from WP:COIN for two months. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that everyone whom don't know is probably a paid editor. The overwhelming majority of my contributions at COIN are simple constructive contributions and the matter described above is highly atypical. Axad12 (talk) 04:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose because Axad12 seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. Cullen328 (talk) 08:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose Given Cullen328's comment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
• I would prefer it if Axad12's voluntary commitment was to stay away from WP:COIN rather than the company article in particular. It is very unhealthy, both for Misplaced Pages and for the particular user, for anything like a third of the edits on any noticeboard to be from any one user. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support this is a good idea, and not vindictive. It will do Axad12 some good to get away from the COIN for awhile, and get out there and roam around Misplaced Pages and see where else they can contribute constructively. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think a formal ban is unnecessary. Axad has done a remarkably good job of articulating a positive response to this incident, and it's to his credit that he has reacted so constructively under such pressure.

  I also think it's good for everyone to try something different on occasion. I think it's easier to walk away for a bit if you're sure that others will step up to fill your place. So with such proposals (not just this one), I'd love to see people saying not only that they support giving someone a break, but also that they'll try to step up to help out in that page/process/noticeboard for the length of a ban. It could be as little as checking in once a week or answering the easy questions. Who is willing to actually be supportive in practice? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  People will fill the space. WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensible. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  It's only for two months, it's a good thing to get away and get a breath of fresh air, and yes, his response has been positive, but even he admits in the Breyer debacle, he was relying on other editor's opinions in evaluating the disputed content, so getting away from the COIN desk for a couple of months, and getting some experience in other areas of the encyclopedia will be beneficial, if and when, he returns to COIN. Isaidnoway (talk) 22:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I don’t want to derail the voting process here, but a couple of points in relation to COIN…

  (Apologies for the length of this post but I feel the contents are relevant.)

  1) It has been observed elsewhere that “COIN has no teeth” (forgive me for the absence of a diff but I think it's a commonly acknowledged idea). I've discussed that issue at some length with Star Mississippi and they've acknowledged that there is (in their opinion) insufficient admin oversight at COIN and that too many threads have historically gone unresolved without action being taken against promo-only accounts (etc).

  Star Mississippi has encouraged me to refer such cases to admins directly to ask them to intervene. I’ve been doing so over recent months and this has significantly improved positive resolutions on COIN threads.

  If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there. Thus, while I acknowledge Whatamidoing’s earlier point about cross-training etc, and the points made by other users, there is an underlying unresolved issue re: admin oversight at COIN, which might also be resolved via some kind of rota or by a greater number of admins looking in from time to time.

  I’ve not consciously been clerking, and I certainly don’t aspire to be “the co-ordinator of COIN”, but there is something of a vacuum there. Consequently I’ve often posted along the lines of “Maybe refer this to RPPI?”, “Is there a notability issue here?”, etc. etc. in response to threads that have been opened.

  I absolutely accept 100% that, in terms of experience, I’m probably not the best person to be doing that – but I have the time to do it and I have the inclination, and in the absence of anybody else serving that role I’ve been happy to do it. But, as I say, really this is an underlying unresolved issue of others not having the time or inclination rather than an issue of me going out of my way to dominate. What I'd really like is if there were others sharing that task.

  2) Also I'm not really sure that the extent to which I perform that sort of role has any real link to me making assumptions about whether COI users have good or bad faith motivations. On the latter distinction I think it's fair to say that I'm usually (but admittedly not always) correct. There have also been occasions when others have been asking for action to be taken and I've been the voice who said "no, I think this is a good faith user who just needs some guidance on policy". I hope that I'm normally speaking fair in that regard.

  Most of the accounts who are taken to COIN are recent accounts who wrongly believe that Misplaced Pages is an extension of their social media. Most accounts who fall into that category are advised along those lines and they comply with policy or, sometimes, they just go away. Then there are the repeat customers who are often clearly operating in bad faith and where firmer action needs to be taken. I'm conscious of that distinction, which seems to me to be the single most important point when dealing with COIN cases. I've not been adopting some kind of hardline one-size-fits-all approach or characterising all COI activity as bad per se. However, more admin oversight at COIN would certainly be appreciated, if only so that there were a wider range of voices.

  Thus, in an ideal world I think I would continue to be allowed to operate at COIN, but as one of several regular contributors.

  Apologies for the length of this post but hopefully this is a useful and relevant contribution. Please feel free to hat this post if it is considered wildly off-topic. Axad12 (talk) 03:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  This comment just reinforces my support position that a two-month break is a good idea. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  Isaidnoway, all I can say is that if Misplaced Pages is looking for people with the time and motivation to dedicate to the project, and who are amenable to taking instruction, then here I am.

  If I’ve been felt to be overly keen to contribute in a particular area then fair enough. I’m just not sure that a formal ban is the way to go about resolving that. Axad12 (talk) 05:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  Good grief, it's only two months, not a lifetime, I've taken breaks form the project longer than that, and guess what, the place didn't fall apart, and neither will COIN if you take a small break, formally or voluntarily. You claim - If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there. I just don't believe that to be true, because as Phil Bridger points out - WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensable. Isaidnoway (talk) 06:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  I really don't wish to argue, you've expressed your view and that's fine. However, the point of my long post above wasn't that "I am critical to COIN". The post was simply intended to highlight the fact that there are very few regular contributors at COIN and to express a hope that a wider range of contributors might get involved (following on from earlier related comments by Whatamidoing). That would be healthy all round, regardless of my situation.

  Also, when I've seen similar situations arise in the past, good faith (but over-active) users seem to usually be given the opportunity to voluntarily take steps to allay any community concerns, rather than being handed a formal ban. I'd just be grateful for a similar opportunity. Axad12 (talk) 06:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  Apologies for the delay. I cannot provide a diff either as I can't recall where we had the conversation but acknowledging that what @Axad12 attributed to me is correct. There are simple blocks that are sometimes needed, but there aren't as many eyes on COIN to action them. I believe I've found merit to any Axad reported directly to me and if there were any I didn't take action, it was due to bandwidth as my on wiki time has been somewhat limited over the last six months. As for the merit of this report, I am not able to read through it to assess the issue so it would not be fair of me to weigh in on any element thereof. Star Mississippi 14:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment I have read through this long, entire discussion. I'd just like to point out to Axad12 that, to me, it's kind of like you are saying what you think we want to hear so it's hard to know how reflective this incident has caused you to be. I think it would be a mistake for you to think you only made mistakes regarding this one article and instead reconsider your approach to the entire COI area. Sometimes "the consensus" is not correct and can violate higher principles like NPOV and V.

I'll just mention that the COI area has caused us to lose some invaluable editors, just superb and masterful editors who were on their way to becoming administrators. They devoted incredible amounts of time to this project. But their interest in rooting out COI and pursuing UPE caused them to completely lose perspective and think that they were a one-man/woman army and they took irresponsible shortcuts that led them to either leave the project voluntarily or be indefinitely blocked. It's like they fell down a rabbit hole where they began to think that the rules didn't apply to them because they had a "higher calling" of getting rid of COI. This lack of perspective caused us to lose some amazing editors, unfortunately, but ultimately they were damaging the project.

You seem like an enthusiastic editor and I'd rather not see the same thing happen to you so I recommend you cut back on your time "clerking" COIN and just make this task one of a variety of areas you edit in instead of your primary activity. Liz 08:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Liz, thank you for your comments. I welcome your perspective and I'm not unaware of the dangers that you highlight.

I think this is now day 5 of what has been a rather gruelling examination where I’ve co-operated to the very best of my ability. Most of the material under discussion has related to a series of regrettable misunderstandings where I’ve openly acknowledged my errors and would now like to move on.

Therefore I’d be grateful if, following a period of reflection, I be given the latitude to continue my activities as I think best, taking on board all the very helpful advice that I’ve received from multiple users. At this moment in time I'm not sure exactly what that will look like going forwards, but it will involve a very significant (perhaps complete) reduction in my concentration on COI issues and much more time spent on improving articles in non-COI areas where I've previously contributed productively (e.g. detailed articles on specific chess openings).

If I subsequently fall short of community expectations then by all means bring me back here with a view to imposing extreme sanctions. I do not think that that will end up being necessary.

I have only the best of intentions but I must admit that I'm finding this prolonged process psychologically wearing. I therefore wondered if we might bring matters to a swift conclusion.

I am genuinely very grateful for the thoughts of all who have contributed above.

Kind regards, Axad12 (talk) 08:27, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Hey, all: This thread's over 100 comments now. Can we please stop now? WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:59, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose. Sanctions are intended to be preventive, not punitive. At times Axad12 can get too aggressive, and removing the RfC template was one of that. Other issues were also raised but unless these issues continues, formal sanctions are unlikely necessary. Graywalls (talk) 17:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Complaint against User:GiantSnowman

There is no merit to the report against GiantSnowman. There is a rough consensus against, or at the very least no consensus for action toward Footballnerd2007 based on the mentorship proposal put forth and accepted and no further action is needed here. Star Mississippi 02:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This complaint has been withdrawn.See #Response from Footballnerd2007 below.

Good Morning,

I am writing to formally lodge a complaint against User:GiantSnowman for repeated violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on personal attacks (WP:NPA) and casting aspersions (WP:ASPERSIONS) during a recent discussion.

Throughout the interaction, GiantSnowman has engaged in behavior that appears to contravene Misplaced Pages's behavioral guidelines, including but not limited to:

Casting aspersions without evidence:

• GiantSnowman repeatedly accused me of engaging in disruptive behavior, suggesting ulterior motives without providing any verifiable evidence.
• For instance, accusations of using ChatGPT to generate responses without concrete proof.
• Statements like “You are a liar and cannot be trusted” and other similar assertions lack civility and violate the principle of Assume Good Faith.

Aggressive tone and unwarranted accusations:

• The user's tone throughout the discussion has been hostile, escalating to direct personal attacks:
• Referring to me as a “liar” multiple times.
• Suggesting that I have been “deliberately disruptive” without presenting any factual basis.

Violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:ENCOURAGE:

• Misplaced Pages encourages editors to respond constructively to newcomers' efforts. However, GiantSnowman’s behavior has been dismissive and accusatory, discouraging participation and creating a hostile editing environment.

As an administrator, GiantSnowman is expected to set an example by adhering to Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies and fostering a collaborative environment. However, their actions in this instance fall far short of the standards expected of administrators, which further exacerbates the seriousness of this issue.

I understand that discussions can sometimes be contentious, but I believe there is no justification for violating WP:NPA or WP:ASPERSIONS. I respectfully request that administrators review the linked discussion and take appropriate action to address this behavior.

If any additional information or clarification is needed, I am happy to provide it. My intent is to ensure a respectful and collaborative editing environment for all Misplaced Pages contributors.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion I raised was at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Footballnerd2007, now closed. I raised concerns about this editor, who has (in brief) - undertake botched and inappropriate RM closures; re-factored other editor's talk page posts; randomly nominated another user with whom they have never interacted before for RFA; and messing with my user space draft. None of that was the conduct of a new editor here to learn the ropes, and I wanted a second pair of eyes.

In the course of that discussion, it became highly suspect to multiple users that this user has been editing with LLM. They denied using Chat GPT and, when questioned further, refused to answer. That is why I said this user is a liar and cannot be trusted, and I stand by that assertion. GiantSnowman 12:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Pinging other editors who were involved in that ANI discussion or have posted concerns/advice on this user's talk page - @Liz, Voorts, Folly Mox, Tiggerjay, Extraordinary Writ, Tarlby, The Bushranger, Thebiguglyalien, and Cyberdog958: - think that is everyone, apologies if not. GiantSnowman 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for your speedy response. Now let other admins add their point of view. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Given the closed section above - which was closed for a very good reason - I'd suggest that coming back to this page to complain and using an LLM to do it is a spectacularly bad idea. The community only has limited patience when dealing with editors who are causing timesinks for other edits, and I suspect that the section above was your limit. Black Kite (talk) 12:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  WP:BOOMERANG is worth reviewing. It may already be too late for you to withdraw your complaint, but it's probably worth an attempt. --Yamla (talk) 12:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Please, any passing uninvolved admin, block the OP now. Not least for using an LLM to generate a complaint that someone accused them of using ChatGPT to generate responses. Enough of our time has been wasted. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Again, this is mere conjecture. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Continuing to deny the obvious - especially when Tarlby ran your posts through multiple LLM checkers - is really not helping your case. For me, it shows you are not here in good faith and that you absolutely cannot be trusted. GiantSnowman 12:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No, it's called people have eyes. Using LLMs this way is highly disrespectful and frankly disruptive. Boomerang block for WP:NOTHERE seems appropriate. Simonm223 (talk) 12:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

(Responding to the ping, invovled) My perspective regarding LLM has been it really doesn't matter (to me) if you're using various technology tools constructively, such as a spell checker or grammar checker might have been viewed two decades ago. However, what really matter is how those tools are used and being responsible for how they're used. This editor has been evasive in their conversations and generally disruptive demonstrating WP:NOTHERE behavior by very peculiar / suspicious WP:Wikilawyering I've only seen in clear LLM cases. Yet, there is no point in bludgeoning to what degree, if any, an LLM is playing here, but because this is a clear example of WP:NOTHERE and failure to follow WP:PG despite many attempts to bring them to this users attention. TiggerJay (talk) 17:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

+1 to Phil Bridger. What struck me in the prior thread, over and over again, was how repeatedly evasive he was. "I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT..." "I never made any comment about LLMs in general." "I have no explanation." "Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully." "Which AI detectors are you using?" "The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively." And so on, and so on, and so on. Footballnerd2007 has been given chance after chance to answer plainly, without Wikilawyering or weasel-wording, and has instead stuck to the tactic of deflect, deflect, deflect. I don't know where Footballnerd2007 got the notion that the Fifth Amendment was the law of the land on Misplaced Pages, and that no boomerang can touch him as long as he admits to nothing. Let's just disabuse him of the notion. Ravenswing 12:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Retaliatory BS; this should be closed immediately. Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

CBAN proposal

• I propose a community ban for Footballnerd2007, appealable no sooner than six months from now (and then once per year thereafter), alongside a ban on using LLM's which would remain in effect until specifically contested. At the time of writing, Footballnerd2007 has only 142 edits, a significant number of which are right here at WP:ANI. They are clearly a massive WP:NOTHERE time sink. I urged Footballnerd2007 to withdraw this complaint and warned about WP:BOOMERANG and that clearly didn't land. I think it's time for everyone else to get back to regular editing. --Yamla (talk) 12:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  • Support, obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. GiantSnowman 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? Ravenswing 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. GiantSnowman 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I'll respond to this in depth later today. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I concede that I've been backed into a corner and now I need to do the right thing, stop with the defensive act and own up to my mistakes which I'll do in my statement later this afternoon. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I had my legal head on with the philosophy "defend until you can no more" - I now concede on reflection this is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages and that my actions were not the right way to go and for that I will take full responsibility in my statement. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    It's too late to withdraw now. You have to take responsibility for your behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  • (edit conflict)Support - on top of what's been posted on this thread, FN2007 has wiped their talk page by archiving without a link to the archive on the fresh talk page, without responding to Liz's advice. They also edited other people's comments to add things they didn't say when closing a RM discussion, and haven't responded when I pointed this out. These things alongside their LLM use (and subsequent wikilawyering "technically I only said I didn't use ChatGPT" responses), refusal to listen to good advice, and everything else in this topic, I think a community ban would be a good idea. BugGhost 🦗👻 13:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC) Update - striking support for cban, I think footballnerd's recent responses and CNC's offer of mentorship indicate that we may be able to avoid it. BugGhost 🦗👻 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? GiantSnowman 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I will go back and thank her for that. Because I had been advised that your actions could have violated WP policy and thought it would be a good way to deflect the blame, in heinsight it was absolutely the wrong course of action. I would like to draw a line under this whole sorry situation and move on with the reason that I joined once my statement has been published and the subsequent discussion has concluded. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    (another (edit conflict) To clarify, I don't think Footballnerd is doing anything malicious or deliberately trying to time-waste. I think they are a misguided new bold editor who unfortunately doesn't listen to advice and is stubborn to self-reflect. If this cban goes ahead I urge them to appeal in 6 months with a better understanding of how wikipedia works, with a more cautious editing style and more acceptance of community opinions. BugGhost 🦗👻 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I am not being malicious, there was only one motivation for my actions - wanting to help.

    My comments on this and the above thread have been ill judged.

    As for the ban, I'd like to ask that I be spared at this moment in time in view of my above comments and the concession statement that I will be posting when I return home. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... GiantSnowman 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Because I'm posting from my phone and I'm not at home. When I return to my PC later today I'll make the statement. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  • Support CBAN. Using a chatbot to generate discussion then denying it when called out is already deeply contemptuous. Turning around and filing a chatbot generated revenge report for people not believing your lies about not using a chatbot? Words fail. Folly Mox (talk) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) edited 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC); see below.

    FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. GiantSnowman 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. GiantSnowman 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. GiantSnowman 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I admit that I did, I just saw the line of "I didn't use ChatGPT" as an easy 'get out of jail card'. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    While that might be technically accurate when you answered that you did not use Chat-GPT, you were intentionally being deceptive in your answers multiple times. It might be slightly different if you were asked specifically about Chat-GPT, however multiple times you were specifically asked about the broad term of LLM. Your current claim of, never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT, falls on deaf ears because it is clear that you were dodging the questions, and indeed intentionally addressed only Chat-GPT for the purpose of deception instead of honesty. TiggerJay (talk) 17:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

    Soft-struck prior comment because now I see you have admitted to such activity prior to my comment above. TiggerJay (talk) 05:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

     Note: for Folly Mox, just to inform you there is a #MENTOR proposal that you may not have seen. I was about to send generic pings to !voters of this section, but it appears all other editors are aware of this proposal already (or voted afterwards at least). This isn't intended to influence your decision, only to provide you updated information. CNC (talk) 23:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    (responding to ping) Withdrawing support for CBAN in light of candid owning up to misbehaviour combined with acceptance of mentorship by CommunityNotesContributor (thanks for the ping: I've been offwiki).@Footballnerd2007: I'm sure the point has got across, but please respect your colleagues here. Using an LLM (of any brand) in discussions is disrespectful of our time; assuming we won't notice is disrespectful of our competence. Please engage with the spirit of other people's communications, rather than with the precise words chosen. Misplaced Pages is very much unlike a courtroom: we're here to work together on a shared project, not to win arguments against each other. I look forward to your earnest acculturation. Folly Mox (talk) 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support as this behavior is clearly WP:NOTHERE. Simonm223 (talk) 15:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support CBAN as this editor has caused a monumental waste of the volunteer time of other editors, which is our most precious commodity. This is an encyclopedia, not a robot debating society. Cullen328 (talk) 18:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support. First choice would be an indefinite block. Despite the user's sudden acts of contrition, I don't trust them. I don't see them as an asset to the project. As for their recent statement that some think is AI-generated, my guess is it's a mixture, maybe we should call it AI-assisted. However, I wouldn't support an indefinite block if it were just that. What preceded the complaint by GS and their conduct at ANI was egregiously disruptive.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose - I say give them some rope. There is good discussion going on below, and I don't think anything is gained by blocking an editor who does at times add value. We can always revisit this later - and presumably the action would then be quick and obvious. BTW, I thought we all used AI to some extent - certainly when I misspell words like "certainyl" I then accept the AI in chrome changing the spelling. Or even improving the grammar if I turn on those options. Also User:GiantSnowman's numerous draft articles in his userspace always confounds me. I've asked them before to write these articles in draft-space where there can be a collaborative effort, rather than their userspace where they won't let anyone else edit. Nfitz (talk) 00:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Haven't voted in this proposal yet, am abstaining for now per trying to avoid advocacy as potential mentor. The two points I will however question is: would a CBAN solve these issues or postpone them until a later date? Would a 1–2 month mentorship more likely bring about the results of reform or failure much sooner? If we want to talk about WP:WASTEOFTIME as we have do so, it might be worth considering the time wasted in not mentoring a newish editor into the folds of the encyclopedia. CNC (talk) 00:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Nfitz - that is a nonsense, editors can and do edit my user drafts whenever they want. My issue was with them moving one into mainspace. GiantSnowman 16:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose: CommunityNotesContributor has offered to mentor him, and the mentoring conditions have been accepted. Let's see what comes of that, and we can always revisit the subject of a ban after CNC reports back. Ravenswing 04:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
• Strong oppose - A mentor has been provided. E_F 18:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support mentorship offered below by CNC, but I still have significant concerns, which I expressed after FBN's response below. TiggerJay (talk) 18:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose as too soon. An alternative for mentoring was proffered instead. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

MENTOR proposal

Mentorship commitments to uphold by Footballnerd2007 for a suggested one–two month period. Mentor: CommunityNotesContributor.

1. Abide by all policies and guidelines and listen to advise given to you by other editors.
2. No page moves (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval from mentor.
3. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it.
4. No more dishonesty, being evasive, or using AI of any kind in discussions due to laziness.
5. Avoid commenting on all admin noticeboards (unless summoned). If there is a problem, seek advise from mentor.
6. Avoid reverting other editors (either manually, part or in full), unless obvious vandalism.

This goes a bit beyond original requirements, and the last two are effectively preventative measures to try and avoid problems arising. An editor involved exclusively on footy articles has limited to no need for involvement in admin noticeboards. CNC (talk) 17:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree to those principles and am grateful for the mentorship opportunity! Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. CNC (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. GiantSnowman 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. CNC (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No bad - let me rephrase if that helps. I am not opposed to mentoring in place of the current CBAN proposal. GiantSnowman 18:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

• Going to chime in here as someone involved in footy related articles. I've reviewed some of the editors contributions, and despite all the issues raised in this topic that are very problematic, the user has seemingly made good contributions to football related articles. I otherwise don't doubt that the user previously edited with an IP (I'm pretty sure which IP this is based on edit histories, but assuming good faith it's not part of this topic and not relevant either so won't bother referencing). I only state this to deflect from suggestions that this editor could be a sockpuppet, as I strongly don't believe to be the case, instead I suspect about 18 months of low-key editing experience up until now. It's therefore a great shame FN2007 went down this road, even if appears to have now retracted the original complaint. Hopefully they can take on board the requests to avoid controversial edits, especially at other user talkpages and such. I'd like to think this is a case of a user trying to run before they can walk, and if they now pace themselves it could work out in the long-term, but alas the damage has also already been done here it seems. Also as a personal suggestion to the editor, if you're here for football articles, then you should be aiming to stay well away from admin noticeboards as they will rarely ever concern you. Generally there should be relatively low controversy editing football articles, even if most remain contentious topics as BLP. So if football is your editing remit here, you're doing it very badly by ending up at a noticeboard, equally so by opening this topic, even with your good contributions. I am therefore reluctantly offering to act as a WP:MENTOR, if the user can commit to the general policy and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, in the hope of not losing a participant in the under edited area of women's football articles. CNC (talk) 14:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. CNC (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per WP:MENTOR, as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. Reader of Information (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  That's definitely OK with me. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Mainly just everyone else at this point it seems. CNC (talk) 14:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Should I ping? Reader of Information (talk) 14:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I gladly and humbly accept your mentorship offer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Just to be clear, this would be a WP:LASTCHANCE offer, nothing more than that. Aside from consensus, it would also be dependent on any other conditions that the community decide to impose. CNC (talk) 14:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Completely not related but wanting to chime in.

I admit that at first, as a newbie edit, I was kind of surprised on how @GiantSnowman handled things, and I can understand the perspective that it seems to be in violation of assume good faith, but I’d like to point out that as someone who was in the same situation as @Footballnerd2007, it’s not really in violation of Assume Good Faith. He just is very organized but tries his best to help others. Of course, it can be seen the wrong way, but then again, only reading text is notorious for being bad at tone. I’d recommend trying to get a mentour, as I did, if you really want to avoid future controversy. I’d recommend FootballNerd to take up CNC’s mentorship offer. Reader of Information (talk) 14:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Furthermore, no one is perfect. Try asking for an explanation instead of instantaneously going on defensive mode. That will always help. Be humble. Reader of Information (talk) 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I have taken up the mentorship offer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. GiantSnowman 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed, @Reader of Information maybe hold off on pings for now. CNC (talk) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Alright, sounds good. Reader of Information (talk) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Per #Response from Footballnerd2007 I think pings are appropriate now. CNC (talk) 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. CNC (talk) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm now home and will start drafting after lunch. I'll send it you before posting it here. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I see a list of conditions but not an explicit proposal for mentoring. Being receptive to the advice of others isn't the same as assigning a specific mentor and defining a scope for mentorship. Can the proposal be clarified, or else renamed? isaacl (talk) 18:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed Involuntary mentorship. CNC (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for your clarifying edit. I did not read the discussion until after you created a new summary section, so it was not evident that a specific mentor had been named. isaacl (talk) 02:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Response from Footballnerd2007

Good Afternoon all,

Can I start by making something unequivocally clear: my behaviour over the past 24 hours has been unacceptable and has resembled that of a lawyer acting in court, trying to defend my actions in an overly strategic way. This course of action was wrong, and I apologise for it.

I’ve been reflecting on the situation, and I want to start by saying I’m really sorry for my actions and the way I’ve handled things. I know I messed up, and I feel it's important to acknowledge that. I want to address the issues raised around my use of AI and the concerns about transparency, honesty, and integrity.

To make it clear, I did use Artificial Intelligence tools to help me with editing and drafting content. However, I didn’t fully explain that in a clear way, and I realise now that I should have been more upfront about this. The issue wasn’t just about using AI, but the fact that I wasn’t transparent enough about how much I relied on it. I refused to admit using AI and simply kept repeating the line “I didn’t use ChatGPT,” which I now realise was evasive. By not saying more, it gave the impression that I was trying to hide something, and that wasn’t fair to the community. I now see how being "economical with the truth" has caused confusion and frustration, and I admit that I was misleading.

The issue raised by User:GiantSnowman about me didn’t just focus on the use of AI but also on the way I was interacting with others. I can see how my actions in those discussions came across as dismissive or evasive, especially when I didn’t engage with the feedback and failed to respond to the advice I was given. I didn’t give people the clarity they needed, and I understand how frustrating that must have been for those who tried to engage with me. I admit I attempted to “give them the run around.” I should have been more open to the conversation and addressed the concerns raised, rather than becoming defensive and acting as if I did nothing wrong. This is not an attempt to justify it, but I want to admit that the reason I used AI was mainly due to laziness and an attempt to sound more knowledgeable in order to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy.

I also want to address how I behaved today. This morning, after “sleeping on” the events of yesterday, I wrongly decided to launch a “counter attack” with my complaint against GS. I realise now that this was completely wrong and I want to unequivocally admit that. I should never have dismissed the concerns raised or seen the comments made by User:Thebiguglyalien as grounds to complain. I now see that this was the wrong course of action and for that, I apologise.

I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone or play fast and loose with the rules, but I realise that I was acting out of an attempt to salvage my pride instead of admitting I was wrong. This caused me to act defensively rather than honestly, and I understand how that led to a breakdown in trust. I take full responsibility for that. I never meant to cause confusion or frustration, but I can see how I did. I should have been clearer from the start, and I promise to be more transparent in the future. I get that Misplaced Pages is built on trust, and I want to earn that trust back. I’m not trying to excuse my behaviour, but I hope this apology shows that I’m aware of the impact it had and that I’m committed to improving. I pledge that I won’t use AI for WP editing in the future. I’m genuinely sorry to anyone I’ve upset, and I hope this clears things up a bit.

Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 16:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for this. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

You're welcome, I'd really like to put this situation behind us and move on. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, if that was written without AI tools (GPTzero still says it was 100% written by AI, but it looks a lot more "human" to me than your previous efforts) then you can at least write without them. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

To be fair, @Phil Bridger, I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... Nfitz (talk) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not surprised. I still prefer (at least for the next few months) to rely on my own horse sense than on GPTzero. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Same. I don't find GPTzero and pals particularly useful benchmarks. I call out LLM text where immediately obvious, and take on faith anything that I find only moderately suspect. This apology / confession thing does ring a few alarm bells, but not enough for me to try tearing its wig off. Hopefully we'll gain a constructive contributor after all this. Folly Mox (talk) 12:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Nfitz, please quote or diff one such "writing" so I can try it myself. (And ping me, please.) EEng 10:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

It was a bit short, EEng, but this. Nfitz (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Well there's something very puzzling going on here. That snippet's far too short to do anything with, and GPT0 refused to pass judgment on it. So I tried something longer of Phil B.'s (I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor.) and it came back "99% human". EEng 18:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, I suppose it's better to be 99% human than 0%. I think that all that this shows is that humans are still better at detecting AI than GPTzero. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

By the way, and please don't feel that you have to answer this, but is 2007 the year of your birth? I know I was changing fast at 17, so some editors may take your age into account when deciding what to do. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from Autism Spectrum Disorder. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Well geez now I'm curious what "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering. Folly Mox (talk) 13:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

That comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate the maturity in acknowledging your errors. I’d like to clarify this as it’s something I avoided mentioning.

The use of AI is not prohibited but heavily frowned upon. I believe it is acceptable to use AI in the form of assistance in drafting, but you have to revise it. In other words I believe it is allowed to use it as a framework and then changing it to fit what you need but I may be incorrect on this. Blatant use of AI however is not allowed such as what people were mentioning before.

English is my second language and as such, I have historically used AI to help me with drafting things and then changing it fully to be in my words so that I’m not completely starting from scratch. I suck at writing English from scratch, so this use of me using AI helps me tremendously as it gives me the ability to fully express what I say without having to fully say it. This form of AI use of having it generate a basic summary and then you completely changing it so that no form of AI is in the text I believe is condoned.

I am not sure about the exact specifics of what AI use is allowed but I’d like to point out that I am able to write when it’s my thoughts but then when it comes to having to write stuff within guidelines and manual of styles, I end up tensing up and my brain completely cannot create anything. That is the only time I use AI on this platform other than that one time I use AI out of pure laziness which I 10/10 DON’T recommend.

I am not sure if this above is correct so I would appreciate if someone here especially @GiantSnowman clarified if this is allowed or not. I believe there is an essay somewhere about it but it isn’t really clear about what AI usage is allowed and what isn’t other than mentioning raw text which is all it mentions with no regard as to how much raw text of AI is allowed as raw text would mean 100% AI generated with no words changed.

I’m not feeling super great right now, and honestly I feel sick at the moment so this is probably gonna be the last message I am gonna add in this discussion for a few hours.

Cheers,

Reader of Information (talk) 19:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

You are looking for WP:LLM. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. GiantSnowman 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I was about to begin a reply with "Last time we tried this", but it looks like that month-ago discussion has not yet been closed or archived. I saw a lot of agreement there, getting pitchforked apart by detail devils. A well read closure should help move us forward with the word­smithing. Folly Mox (talk) 12:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Courtesy pings to increase discussion as the following pings all commented in the sections prior.

@Nfitz

@Phil Bridger

@GiantSnowman

@Footballnerd2007

@Black Kite:

@Bugghost:

@Isaacl:

@CommunityNotesContributor:

@Randy Kryn:

@Bbb23:

@Cullen328:

@Simonm223:

@Folly Mox:

@Bgsu98:

@Yamla:

Sorry for the delay CNC.

Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Please don't send mass ping notifications to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. isaacl (talk) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Seconding Isaacl - these pings were unecessary. Editors who wanted to follow this discussion would have subscribed. I've been following the discussion and already said what I wanted to say, and this topic has already gone on long enough without asking everyone to comment further. BugGhost 🦗👻 07:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that LLM content is not able to be brought into compliance with Misplaced Pages copyright restrictions and is highly disrespectful of others in article talk. As such I don't believe there is any place for LLMs and other chatbots in Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 12:12, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Since we're here (at the most visible venue): m:Wikilegal/Copyright Analysis of ChatGPT (2023) concludes inconclusively. Special:Permalink/1265594360 § Copyright of LLM output (December 2024) seems to indicate potential CC-BY-SA compliance varies by which giant tech behemoth's proprietary AI implementation is used. Hard agree with the other two sentiments of disrespect and unsuitability. Folly Mox (talk) 12:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

That's interesting. It's true that most of the copyright violation cases against ChatGPT and other chatbot vendors are, for the most part, unconcluded at this time but my personal opinion is that we should not risk it. Simonm223 (talk) 12:42, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Yes, of course, a very good statement of contrition and hope for future editing (hopefully not all AI). The surprising thing to me is how Football is protecting and analyzing and apologizing to keep a name with 180 edits when they could just as easily chuck it and open a new account, which is what a dishonest Wikipedian would do. Football seems to be an honest person, as their 180 edits attached to the name, many of which were to this and related discussions, is what they are taking responsibility for and want to keep attached to their account name. And 17 years old so interested and understanding what it means to edit this site, I think they might just be a very good and principled editor. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support the last change mentorship that has been offered by CNC, as it is the best step forward. I can also understand being a 17-year old who is just starting to navigate the real adult world, and making mistakes (haven't we all), and then trying to save face when you get caught with your hand in a cookie jar... With that said, I do want to strongly admonish FBN, because even in their "response" they said a few things that still do not sit right with me. For example I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone however, Folly Mox asked about their prior statement of "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering and their age, they said simply That comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies.. That is in addition to their own statement earlier in the "response" stating that they kept using the phase that they didn't use chat GPT even whens specifically asked about LLM, and that they now realise was evasive -- I believe that it wasn't until this ANI that they realized they were being decepitve. I also take great pause at the statement of to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy. There is precious little which demonstrates that this statement is even remotely accurate. Even in raising this ANI, very few of the instructions were followed. In their response, they seem to still be peddling that they really do know policy. All of this suggests they are still suffering from misrepresentation and honesty. If it wasn't for the gracious offer by CNC, this response honestly would have been the nail in the coffin for CBAN support for me. TiggerJay (talk) 18:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

MAB Teahouse talk

I didn't want to, but I one-hour protected the talk page of the Teahouse due to MAB going there. The Teahouse itself is already protected. Obviously they're going there precisely to make things as difficult on us as possible, but I don't know what else to do. 331dot (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Would it be possible to create a link (or button) that creates a new section on one's own talk page with {{Help me}} preloaded? We could then add this to the page's editnotice. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 09:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I protected Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

OK, I've fixed that. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Looks like today they're hitting every help page they can find. 331dot (talk) 09:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

In relation to "MAB" issues, is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of when the notoriously difficult Queen Mab speech was pretty much hit out of park in 1997's Romeo + Juliet? Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 12:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it's just you. Liz 06:21, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Kosem Sultan - warring edit

Hello, I am terribly sorry if I write this in wrong place, but I really don't know what place would be best to report this.

I was editing page of Kösem Sultan and I noticed this user: 109.228.104.136 changed phrase in infobox "spouse: Ahmed I" into "consort of: Ahmed I", claiming 'they were never married'. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=K%C3%B6sem_Sultan&oldid=1263148667

Because of this, I added information they were married and sourced this with book. However, this person keep revert to their preffered version of infobox. I asked them on Talk page about providing source. When I pointed that their source not disputes or even misinnterprets mine, they deleted my talk. They did this twice and even claimed I 'vandalized' Kosem's page.

As inexperienced user I was few times into edit warring, as I did not know how exactly rules are there.I try to be careful now to not make disruptions and while there is instruction to undo undsourced informations, I am not sure if I am allowed to undo their - unsourced - edition, as I already did this few times. I would not label changing 'spouse' for 'consort of' as vandalism per say, but I want to protect my edition and I wish this person provided source so we could each consensus. You can see our - now deleted by them - discussion here: 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267744138#Kosem_Sultan_was_wife_of_Ahmed_I. 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267749540#Kosem_was_wife_of_Ahmed (I do not know if I linked this correctly, but both shound be find in history of talk page of user with today date)

I hope it can be seen I was willing to discuss things and I even proposed to merge ours versions, if only this person provide scholar source - which they didn't, as Tik Tok video they linked contardicts statement from my book (see details in discussions). I also want to add that blocked user called Cecac https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:K%C3%B6sem_Sultan#Marriage used exactly the same argument, as historian in Tik Tok provided by 109.228.104.136. I do not know if 109.228.104.136 and Cecac are the same person, but I think it should be checked. Finally, I do not know how much video made on Tik Tok should be considered as reliable source, so I am not sure how to act in this situation.

Again I apologize if I leave this message in wrong board - there were multiple issues so I decided to list them all. Please notify me if I am allowed edit Kosem's page and brought back informations, as I really want avoid going back-and-forth and do not want to be blocked myself. --Sobek2000 (talk) 14:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I want to add that I informed user 109.228.104.136 about this reprt, however they delete this from their Talk page. Sobek2000 (talk) 23:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I will point out that consort is generally considered synonymous with the word spouse. Elizabeth I's mother, for example was officially the "queen consort" of the united kingdom. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:32, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

IP persistently removing sourced content.

133.209.194.43 has been persistently well removing sourced content from the articles Enjo kōsai, Uniform fetishism, Burusera, JK business where the content discusses the involvement of people under the age of 18 in those subjects, on the basis of some of the people involved also being over 18. Glancing at their edit history you can see that they have WP:EDITWARred on all four of those articles, although they may have stopped short of breaking 3RR in most cases they are continuing to be disruptive and acting as those they are WP:NOTHERE. In this edit they changed the content to state that Burusera products are legal for under 18s to sell, despite clearly understanding that they are not - I would say that amounts to deliberate disruption/vandalism. ---- D'n'B-📞 -- 19:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Courtesy ping, @Cassiopeia and KylieTastic also have tried to warn this IP user. -- D'n'B-📞 -- 19:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

While they don't leave edit summaries except for the section headings, it looks like some of their edits were removing inappropriate content from these articles. Can you provide diffs of edits that you find problematic? Generally, when making an argument that an editor is being disruptive, the OP provides diffs that support that accusation and I don't find the one edit you link to serious enough to issue a sanction. I mean, we are already talking about articles that border the line on pornography. Liz 04:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

It's the ignoring warnings and lack of discussion that's the issue, so pointing to individual diffs doesn't show the whole picture. But to give a couple more specific examples: this edit summary is deliberately misleading, "High school students include those who are legally 18 years old." is obviously a true statement but doesn't relate to the content being removed - which is about Australia's laws on the matter do apply to adults. pretty much the same thing here. I can't see any instance where they removed removed inappropriate content - rather they seem focussed on removing content that mentions any laws. -- D'n'B-📞 -- 06:38, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Edit warring on US politicians around the Gaza genocide

The Lord of Misrule is blocked for edit warring and there is no merit to their retaliatory report. If disruption returns when the block expires, escalating sanctions can be considered. Star Mississippi 04:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• The Lord of Misrule (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm getting caught up into an edit war with The Lord of Misrule (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) regarding the so-called "Gaza genocide" on Nancy Mace, Antony Blinken, and Linda Thomas-Greenfield. Rather than continue, I am extricating myself and bringing their conduct here. From my attempts on their talk page, including the Arab-Israel, BLP, and American politics (post 1992) contentious topic warnings, are going unheeded. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Any so-called "commentary" has been removed, ie "complicity" and now just facts related to the subject and topic remain, yet here we are. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 20:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I will note, per the International Criminal Court, any material support for War Crimes, like funding or vetos allowing war crimes to continue in the UN Security Council, are themselves War Crimes https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Elements-of-Crimes.pdf Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Unless you can find a RS to back that up, that would be OR. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I just reverted TLoM's most recent edit, has vetoed 5 ceasefire agreements. when the source says vetoed five resolutions, including three calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, one Russian oral amendment, and a proposal for full Palestinian membership in the U.N. The three ceasefire vetoes are already documented in the article. Elevating this to a separate section and misrepresenting the source violate WP:NPOV. I question whether TLoM should be editing BLPs. Schazjmd (talk) 21:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I find this editors removal of information vs an easy correction of the word "agreement" to "resolution" troubling at best and biased at worst. This section is ripe for expansion as more scholarly works will be forthcoming. It seems the editor would rather delete this information rather than correct and provide more information. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

If more scholarly works will be forthcoming, then the sections can be expanded when those works forthcome. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

@Muboshgu, they were provided with a CTOP notice for ARBPIA by @ScottishFinnishRadish on the 17/02/2024. Should this perhaps be best addressed at WP:AE? TarnishedPath 21:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

No need. Blocked for two weeks for edit warring on three pages in violation of WP:BLPRESTORE. If it continues after the block, please simply let me know on my talk page (or re-report here and feel free to notify me). ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Will do. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Given the thread below I think we should discuss a topic-ban here and now, rather than going thru AE. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 21:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Perhaps. I was going to initially bring this to 3RRNB but decided to bring it here. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Removal of legitimately sourced information concerning ongoing Genocide in Gaza

Retaliatory. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Bbb23 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has removed legitimately sourced information regarding the subject's involvement with the Gaza Genocide. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

What subject? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger, see the directly above discussion. TarnishedPath 21:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tendentious editor

Single purpose account NicolasTn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is reverting again . They want to expand the lead which is disputed. They have been warned not to edit war. They claim to "restore deletion" most of which introduced by them to the lead, but in the process removing other sourced information and adding back errors. They know where to discuss edits but avoid doing so as much as they can, so I don't think enough discussion exists to initiate dispute resolution. Previous ANI. Vacosea (talk) 23:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

It looks like this article page history has been an edit war between the two of you. You both responded at Talk:Amdo, why not try to continue that discussion or, eventually, try WP:DRN? Neither of you have had made much use of the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. Liz 02:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I'll just note that this editor, who has only made 51 edits, hasn't edited in 3 days so they may not respond here immediately. Liz 02:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

They would probably respond only after being reverted again by me or the other editor. Since their one and only response, they've left the discussion hanging again while actively editing the article. Vacosea (talk) 20:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Adillia

Aidillia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've been avoiding that user ever since we were blocked for edit warring on File:Love Scout poster.png but they keep going at every edits I made, specifically the recent ones on the files I uploaded like File:The Queen Who Crowns poster.png and File:The Trauma Code Heroes on Call poster.png, where the file are uploaded in WP:GOODFAITH and abided WP:IMAGERES but they keep messing up. I'm still at lost and not sure what's their problem with my edits. Additional: I will also hold accountability if I did bad faith.

Note: Aidillia "accidentally" archived this discussion. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 02:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I've many proof that shows you're the one who start the problem. Aidillia 03:02, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

File:The Queen Who Crowns poster.png you revert my correct upload which makes me so offended. Aidillia 03:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

File:The Trauma Code Heroes on Call poster.png i upload as per their official social media. But rather used a poster version, and in the end i revert it. Same like what u did to me on File:Love Your Enemy poster.png. I don't know what is this user problem, first upload the incorrect poster than re-upload again with the correct poster which i already uploaded, then need a bot to resize it. (So unnecessary) Aidillia 03:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I reverted that because it was too early to say that the poster is indeed the main one at that time when it was labeled as a character poster by Korean reliable sources. You know that we rely more on independent secondary reliable sources rather on official website or social media accounts as they are primary sources, so I don't know why you were offended by a revert. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 04:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Why you don't say this on the summary? or u can just simply discuss it on my talk page. Aidillia 04:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a volunteer service and WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. I have other WP:OBLIGATION in real life. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 08:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

If you're that busy, please stop reverting my edits/uploads without any clear explanation. Just like what you did on File:Love Scout poster.png. You will just engaged in WP:EDITWAR. I've also seen you revert on File:Light Shop poster.png; someone reverted it to the correct one (which I uploaded), but you still revert to your preferred version without leaving an edit summary. Aidillia 08:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I have partially blocked both of you from editing filespace for 72 hours for edit warring. I think an IBAN might be needed here. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Support an indefinite two-way interaction ban between D.18th and Aidillia. They've also been edit warring at Close Your Eyes (group). Also look at the move log there, which is ridiculous. These people need to stop fighting with each other. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 06:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

User:D.18th

Withdrawn. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

D.18th (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user keeps coming to wherever i made an edit. And this user also ignore WP:GOODFAITH. Aidillia 03:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

:This user is the most number one who often comes in on my talk page first. But when I came to their talk page, i got restored or, worse, got reverted as vandalism. Aidillia 03:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Aidilla: You have failed to notify D.18th (talk · contribs) of this discussion, as the red notice at the top of the page clearly requires. I know they already reported you above, but they may not be aware of your one in return. You will need to show clear diffs supporting the allegations that you've made; expecting us to act on this report with no such evidence is likely going to result in this not ending well for you. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 04:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Aidillia, you can't remove a post from ANI once it has been responded to by another editor. If you want to rescind your complaint then strike it by using code, <s>Comment</s> which will show up as Comment. Liz 05:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

 Done, thanks! Aidillia 05:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Azar Altman and User:Farruh Samadov

All of the named parties have been indefinitely blocked with checkuser blocks. Liz 20:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Azar Altman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Farruh Samadov (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Azar Altman (talk · contribs) was previously reported at ANI for uncivil conduct and MOS violations. Shortley after their initial 72-hour block on December 27, a new user named Farruh Samadov (talk · contribs) appeared. One of their edits at Uzbekistan is an emblem before the name of Tashkent, the capital of Uzbekistan, in violation of MOS:FLAG. They did this three more times (, , ). And then Azar Altman reverted again twice (, ), leading me to suspect that Farruh Samadov is a sock puppet. Both users edit in the Uzbekistan topic area and both user talk pages have warnings for MoS violations, but Samadov has never used uncivil language, as Altman did on their user talk and in their second edit I linked. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I opened a sockpuppet investigation a couple hours ago. It is indeed highly suspicious that Farruh Samadov was created only a few hours after this block was imposed. Mellk (talk) 04:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Pinging @Drmies who was involved in the prior ANI and performed the block. TiggerJay (talk) 04:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Suggest these accounts to be blocked as soon as possible if sockpupperty is confirmed. Galaxybeing (talk) 05:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Galaxybeing, yes, that's how that goes. Drmies (talk) 13:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Regardless of SOCK, suggest that Azar receive another block of at least a week for continued disruption shortly after the block was lifted. They were reverted twice (as noted above) for the same edit by two different editors (Laundry and Melik). Their most recent edit summary was Stop discriminating by violating Misplaced Pages rules. when MOS was specifically mentioned in the prior edit summary and they are abundantly notified about edit warring and not reverting-reverts. TiggerJay (talk) 05:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sockpuppetry in Philippine articles

Request an immediate and extended range block for 49.145.5.109 (talk · contribs), a certified sock of LTA Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Yaysmay15 from editing 2025 in the Philippines and other related pages pending a result of a protection request, the second to have been filed for that page after the first instance of sockpuppetry by the same account was deemed not serious enough. See also Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Yaysmay15. Borgenland (talk) 07:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems like this should be reported at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Yaysmay15, not at ANI. That's where the checkusers are at although they are generally reluctant to connect an IP account with a blocked sockpuppet. Liz 04:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

This is already confirmed in the SPI. However, as it is an IP account that can't be indeffed, I'd had to check my calendar too often to see when their existing block expires. 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Borgenland (talk) 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

SeanM1997

Blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only}

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• SeanM1997 (talk · contribs)

User seems to think that sourcing is only clutter and keeps removing source requests and sometimes even sources. This despite WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT and WP:V. Warnings and request completely fall on deaf ears. This is damaging the encyclopedia. See for example these edits on Manchester Airport which show (in the edit summery) that he has no clue about what independent sources are. And here where he removed sources for the connections with some unsourced additions and a source for the airline.

Combined with stories about being a professional in this field, giving him a WP:COI, I think something has to be done. The Banner talk 12:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Reading SeanM1997's talk page is a depressing saga. I have indefinitely blocked the editor for persistent addition of unsourced and poorly sourced content for years, despite being warned repeatedly. The editor can be unblocked if they promise to provide references to reliable sources 100% of the time. Cullen328 (talk) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

It should be noted that SeanM1997 has in the past posted a tweet to support something, then used a news story referencing his tweet as a source to insert into an article. Despite many years and many many conversations, they don't/won't understand the concept of independent reliable sources. Canterbury Tail talk 17:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Deegeejay333 and Eurabia

Much of the activity of the infrequently active user Deegeejay333 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to be attempts to whitewash anything to do with the Eurabia conspiracy theory, attempting to present it as "fact", despite the fact that scholarly sources have consistently defined it as a conspiracy theory (see , ). I think this makes them WP:NOTHERE. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Notifed their talkpage . Despite their long periods of inactivity, their most recent activity is today . Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The rest of their edits on unrelated topics seem unobjectionable. I think page blocks would get the job done in preventing further disruption (I can't get around to doing that right now, but that's my two cents). voorts (talk/contributions) 17:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Really? You see nothing wrong with these edits? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah. It does kind of look like this editor is WP:NOTHERE except to do battle with the terrible forces of Misplaced Pages leftism. Simonm223 (talk) 17:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I did a quick look; I didn't look at all of their edits. I agree that edit is also problematic. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

White-washing Bat Yeor was also the very first edit they made at Misplaced Pages as well as their most recent. This is an ongoing issue. see here. Simonm223 (talk) 18:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Wigglebuy579579

• Wigglebuy579579 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) keeps engaging in disruptive editing behaviour:

1. they created dozens of articles by copy-pasting AI-generated text;
2. they ignored all warnings onto their talk page;
3. they duplicated draftified articles by simply recreating them.

Miminity and I have been cleaning the mess for hours, warned him several times, but he just ignores everything and starts again. – Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 17:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I would support indefinitely blocking this user. Their output is entirely low quality AI-generated slop, and they are contributing nothing of value to the encyclopedia while placing considerable burden on others. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Est. 2021, can you provide some examples so we don't have to search through their contributions? Thank you. Liz 19:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Some pertinent examples Draft:Toda_Religion/2 (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and Draft:Indigenous religions of India (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Liz: Examples include:

1. Draft:Pfütsana, Draft:Pfütsana Religion and Draft:Pfütsana Religion/2;
2. Draft:Toda Religion and Draft:Toda Religion/2;
3. Draft:Indigenous Religions of India and Draft:Indigenous religions of India;
4. Draft:Sekrenyi Festival;

among others. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Liz: This editor left a message on my talkpage and again it is clearly written by AI. Here's the link Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 00:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Are any of the references in Draft:Pfütsana Religion/2 real or are they all hallucinations? I'm having trouble finding them on web searches. They're also suspiciously old even though there is more recent relevant literature. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages:Large language models essay recommends G3 for articles for which text-source integrity is completely lacking. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

@Rsjaffe: Using BookFinder.com, Citation #1, #3 (might be a dupref of 1) does exist but has different author, Citation #2 does exist and is correct. #4 is dupref of #2. A quoted google search and a google scholar search about #5, 8, 9, 11 (The journals does not seem to even exist) yields no result. No result for 6, 7, 9, 10 (Nagaland State Press does not seems to even exist) 12 Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 02:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I would like to hear from @Wigglebuy579579, but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Click all the link on the Draft:Toda Religion/2, all of them are {{failed verification}}. Either the page does not exist or the website itself does not exist. The JSTOR sources leads to a completely unrelated article. I think by the looks of it, this draft is safe to delete

@Wigglebuy579579: care to explain? Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 03:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

@Rsjaffe: more ref-checking at Draft:Pfütsana: as Miminity observes, The Angami Nagas: With Some Notes on Neighbouring Tribes exists (although with the BrE spelling of the title) and I accessed it at archive.org. It does not mention pfütsana anywhere in its 570 pages. The closest we get is pfuchatsuma, which is a clan mentioned in a list of sub-clans of the Anagmi. The draft says The term Pfütsana is derived from the Angami language, where "Pfü" translates to "life" or "spirit," which is contrary to what The Angami Nagas says – pfü is a suffix functioning sort of similarly to a pronoun (and I think I know how the LLM hallucinated the meaning "spirit" but this is getting too long already). I looked at a couple of the sources for Draft:Indigenous religions of India as well, and I haven't been able to find a single instance where the source verifies the claims in the draft. --bonadea contributions talk 16:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for checking. Those are now deleted. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

• Est. 2021 and Miminity, thanks for supplying examples that can be reviewed. Liz 04:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I have deleted Draft:Pfütsana Religion/2 and Draft:Toda Religion/2 as they have falsified references. Checking the others would be appreciated. Also, editor has been warned on their page about inserting unsubstantiated demographic data in articles. User talk:Wigglebuy579579#January 2025. I think we’re running out of WP:ROPE here. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

User:BittersweetParadox - Overlinking

• BittersweetParadox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user is persistently MOS:OVERLINKing throughout most of their edits that aren't dealing with categories or redirects, see for example:

• (unexplained citation removal as well)

I have also recently warned the user on their talk page regarding this, but they have seemingly chosen to ignore that warning, as they are still continuing with the same behavior:

This is also not the first time the issue has been brought up to the user, as they were previously warned in July 2024, where even after claiming to understand the issue/say they won't do it again, continued the same behavior. With their ignoring of warnings regarding overlinking, it unfortunately appears that an ANI discussion may be the only way to solve this ongoing issue, apart from a block. Magitroopa (talk) 17:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Overlinking still continuing on despite this ANI (for example), and even with an administrator suggesting they not ignore this ANI, continues on with their edits/ignoring this ANI. The user is not appearing to want to WP:COMMUNICATE whatsoever, and some of their communication over issues in the past does not bode well as well ().

They are adding many uses of Template:Baseball year, despite the usage instructions saying that the template should not be used in prose text. I really am not sure what more there is to do here, as any attempts at communicating with the user does virtually nothing. Magitroopa (talk) 20:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• @BittersweetParadox: It's rather insulting to state you'll comment here and then continue to overlink . Please stop editing like this until you can address the above concerns. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 07:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@Liz: Apologies for the ping, but could there please be some assistance here?... As BX stated above, despite their only communication thus far since this ANI (being a simple, "ok"), they have still continued overlinking- now overlinking even more since BX's comment above: . I'm really not sure what more there is that can be done here apart from a block, as it appears this is just going to continue on, no matter what anyone says here or on their talk page. Magitroopa (talk) 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Repeated pov pushing

This is a content dispute and ANI is not the venue to resolve those. Hellenic Rebel, you've had multiple editors tell you that you are not correct. Please take the time to understand why. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Hellenic Rebel , despite the disagreements, continues to try to impose his personal opinion, for which he cannot cite any source that justifies him. Clearly original research.

diff1

diff2

diff3

diff5

previous reporting of the issue

See also, talk with User:Rambling Rambler 77.49.204.122 (talk) 19:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Replying since I've been tagged. I do think this is a behavioural issue rather than a content one. User has been repeatedly warned on their talk page by several users about edits to the article in question but has belligerently refused to engage in constructive discussion about said edits.

User was clearly warned about continuing this in the closure message of the last ANI discussion not to resume the edits but the response on the article's talk page was notably dismissive of said warning.

Quite honestly I think this is a case of WP:IDHT. The user in question has just plead that they have special knowledge we don't and has steadfastly refused to demonstrate in reliable sources the contents of their edits. Despite being informed of how consensus works they have resorted to counting votes and even in that case just dismissing the views of those against him for contrived reasons. Rambling Rambler (talk) 19:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

My friends, anonymous user and @Rambling Rambler, and also dear user and adminis that are going to see the previous POVs. The article had a specific version, which you decided to dispute by causing a correction war, that could easily be seen at the page history. The administrator locked the page in order to reach to a consensus, which obviously couldn't happen, and there was no corresponding participation. Four users in all, the two of us presented our arguments in favor of the original version, Rambling Rambler (and somewhat monotonously and without proper documentation, the anonymous user) presented yours for the version without seats. At the end, you threw in an ad-hominem against me, to top it off. You made a call, no one else did anything, time passed. What makes you believe that the article will remain in your version, while the original was the previous one and there was no consensus?
P.S.: Rambling Rambler, please stop bombing links to wikipedia policies and then trying to interpret them and "fit" them to the issue. This practice resembles clickbait, you are simply trying to show that you are knowledgeable about politics and appear superior, and this is annoying. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler an admin locked the page, and then anybody respond even if we make pings. That means that they just locked the page because there was an edit war, and and no one dealt with the article. The discussion ended weeks ago and also you've made a public call. If somebody wanted, they would have closed the discussion. So I don't think it's a case of IDHT, because the time intervals in which someone could engage (either to participate in the discussion, or an administrator to close it) had exceeded the normal. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 19:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not going to reopen the content aspect of this here. I have made you aware, repeatedly, of our polices when it comes to including claims. You need to provide reliable sources and the burden is on those wanting to include challenged statements to meet consensus to include them. You have now just admitted there is no consensus yet you felt entitled to reintroduce challenged material.

This is precisely a "I don't have to" issue. Rambling Rambler (talk) 19:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Also tagging @Voorts as they probably have a view on this given their previous action. Rambling Rambler (talk) 19:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler I will prove you that you actually interpret policies as you see fit, and you don't pay attention to what they say. WP:IDHT:
Sometimes, editors perpetuate disputes by sticking to a viewpoint long after community consensus has decided that moving on would be more productive. Believing that you have a valid point does not confer the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told otherwise. The community's rejection of your idea is not because they didn't hear you. Stop writing, listen, and consider what the others are telling you. Make an effort to see their side of the debate, and work on finding points of agreement. Do not confuse "hearing" with "agreeing with".
You can see the bold parts. It's obvious from those, that this policy does not refer to cases where four user with two different opinions participated. It refers to cases where one or a minority of users refuses to accept the community's decision because they believe their opinion is superior. In our discussion, my version never rejected from the community, it was rejected only by you and the anonymous user. In this case, either you believe that the majority or the community in general is you and the anonymous user, or you are simply trying to propagate your position. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 20:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

You were linked WP:ONUS during the discussion and clearly acknowledged it.

So you are aware of it, which bluntly states:

The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.

In your previous reply you have admitted that there isn't consensus.

You have broken policy and are just once again stubbornly refusing to adhere to it. Rambling Rambler (talk) 20:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler There was a long time period in which we did not have any edit in the discussion. The original version was the one with the seats. The admins at that cases, lock the article at a random version (otherwise there should have been a clarification from the admin). So the lack of consensus concerns your own version, not the original one, to which I restored the article. Finally, I need to point out that you have made a series of problematic contributions, such as misguiding users by referring them to Misplaced Pages policies that are not related to the subject as I demonstrated exactly above, but also the ad-hominem against me which you proceeded together with the anonymous user in the article discussion. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 20:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

This wall of text is the exact problem at hand here. You won't follow our site's policies but instead are just making up your own as to why breaking policy is now fine. The "discussion" was barely dormant and as you admit there was no consensus on including the material you demand be included. Ergo, per policy it can't be included.

Frankly you are incapable of editing in a collaborative manner. I think the fact that you've been blocked repeatedly both here and at our Greek equivalent for disruptive behaviour and edit-warring demonstrates this very well. Rambling Rambler (talk) 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler The problem here is that you don't understand the policy. The one who needs consensus to make edits, is the one that wants to make a change at the page. In our case, maybe the random version in which the page was locked was your version, but that does not change the fact that you were the one who wanted to make a change. You need consensus, you did not achieved it. Also, that is ad-hominem again, and now you checked and my greek WP blocks? Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

It is not ad hominem to bring up your history of blocks for edit warring and disruption when the topic of discussion is your conduct.

The policy, which I quoted for your benefit, literally says the onus is on the person who wants to include the disputed content which is you. You want this claim to be on the article and myself and others have disputed it. Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler there is not such as disputed content. The party has 5 members affiliated with it, and there is source about it. Your edits where those which need consnensus, because you are the one which want to change the original. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The fact myself and others have said it's not supported and therefore shouldn't be there is literally a dispute... Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler yes it is a dispute, but if there is not a consensus that your dispute is valid, the version that remains is the original one, that is also supported by source. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

There has never been a specific version of the article. A few hours after adding the uncited 5 MPs, the edit was undone. It is also worth noting that the original contributor of the addition about mps, Quinnnnnby never engaged in an edit war or challenged our disagreements, as you did. 77.49.204.122 (talk) 20:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I did, but you also did. So the only user to act properly at that case was @Quinnnnnby. And guess with what opinion Quinnnnby agreed at the discussion... Hellenic Rebel (talk) 20:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Hellenic Rebel:, Rambling Rambler is actually right: if you wish to include text which has been disputed, you must include sourcing. You cannot just attempt to force the content in, regardless of what consensus you believe has been achieved. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@HandThatFeeds this is exactly why I am saying that the users propagandize: there was a source used! Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Then it's time to discuss that source on the Talk page instead of just ramming into the article. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@HandThatFeeds there was a discussion on the page. The source states that 5 MPs of the Hellenic Parliament are in the new party. And the users, after their first argument that it should have a parliamentary group was shot down (as it was obvious that this policy is not followed in any party), they moved on to a logic that the source should say verbatim "5 MPs stand" for the party... Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@HandThatFeeds I have lost hours of my life to "discussing" this at this point. They're entirely either refusing or simply incapable of understanding that because they have sources for Claim A that doesn't mean they can put a similar but still different Claim B on the article. They however insist they can because unlike us they're "Hellenic" and therefore know that Claim A = Claim B while refusing to accept this is WP:OR. Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Automatic editing, abusive behaviour, and disruptive(ish) wikihounding from User:KMaster888

(non-admin closure) While KMaster888's editing history (the original discussion) wasn't inherently bad in itself, their conduct after being questioned about it was bad, violating WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, WP:SUMMARYNO, and WP:NPA See , , , , , , , , , and their comments on this thread. Indeffed by Cullen328, and TPA revoked after , another personal attack. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 02:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:KMaster888 appears to be making lightning speed edits that are well beyond the capacity of any human to review, in addition to article content that's coming across potentially LLM-like in nature. Since December they've made over 11,000 edits, many across multiple articles within a sixty second window.

I attempted to ask about the policies around this at User_talk:Novem_Linguae and was met with a tirade of obscenities and abuse (which I want to give them a slight benefit of the doubt on, I'd be upset at being accused of being a bot if I wasn't):

diff diff diff

As far as I can tell this peaked with a total of 89 edits in a four minute window between 08:27 to 08:31 on December 28, 2024. Most are innocuous, but there are content edits thrown in the mix and recent articles were written in a way that indicates it may be an LLM (diff not definitive, though if you are familiar with LLM output this may ring some alarm bells, but false alarms abound).

Following the quite hot thread at User:Novem Linguae's page, it's quite clear that whoever is operating that bot threw my entire edit history into the mix, because the bot systematically edited every single article that I had edited, in reverse order (over 100 so far since this came up about an couple of hours ago), going back a reasonable amount of time.

The problem is that it's clear that a bot was instructed to just make an edit, without concern for what those edits are, so you end up with questionable, misrepresented, or edits for the sake of editing at a rate far faster than any editor could address.

This one is easily one of the strangest situations I've ever encountered on Misplaced Pages. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 20:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm flattered that you've looked into my activity on Misplaced Pages so closely. But if you'd be arsed, you'd understand that it is very simple to do an insource search using a regular expression to find a lot of stylistic errors, like no space after a sentence. If you love being on my back so much, good on you, but I'd wish if you got off. KMaster888 (talk) 20:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

1) That doesn't explain how consistently abusive you have been

2) While I'm aware that an overwhelming percentage of the errors you're editing out are ones that can simply be addressed by regex, I'm very clearly raising the content edits as opposed to formatting ones. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

How about we take this off of ANI, of all places? KMaster888 (talk) 21:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Obviously, if there's someone who's making bad decisions on Misplaced Pages (You), I want to check if he has messed up articles. Please tell me what articles you think I have damaged. KMaster888 (talk) 21:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Also, I'd appreciate if you would stop casting aspersions about me being an LLM. KMaster888 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. KMaster888 (talk) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Unless you're doing regex with your eyes, clearly you're using assistance. And the fact you're (still!) doing something that fixes the same type of typo almost as fast as I can click "Random Article" indicates you're doing more than just regex. You're finding these articles somehow. closhund/talk/ 22:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I am doing an "insource" search using regex. KMaster888 (talk) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Ah . I wasn't aware one could do that. I retract. closhund/talk/ 22:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

And, I would appreciate if you would stop calling my edits strange and odd. KMaster888 (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

You had over 100 edits in a row directily in chronological sequence, from newest to oldest, of my exact edit history excluding wikiprojects and talk pages. I'm allowed to find that a little strange. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Why shouldn't someone call strange and odd edits strange and odd? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@KMaster888 I suggest you stop with the personal attacks before you get blocked. Tarlby 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that KMaster888 should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. KMaster888 (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I'll just ask you straight up.Do you feel any remorse for this statement? remove asshole Could you explain why you felt it was best to choose those two words when blanking your talk page? Tarlby 21:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

And again: @The Corvette ZR1 @Tarlby stop clogging up ANI with your comments. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 22:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

, , , , , Tarlby 21:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

And this: improve asinine comment and this: I wipe my ass with comments like yours. Cheers! MrOllie (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. KMaster888 (talk) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

You have to abide by the rules like the rest of us. And cool it with the hostile edit summaries. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Great answer. Tarlby 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

You are clearly WP:NOTHERE. Attacking other editors instead of backing off, inappropriate edit summaries, what next? The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

There ought to be a gossip noticeboard that doesn't clog up ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I will dispute what you said. I AM HERE to build an encyclopedia. Why do you think I would have given 10,000 edits worth of my time if I didn't care? KMaster888 (talk) 21:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, WP:CIVIL and WP:SUMMARYNO tell me the contrary. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries and here indicate they're WP:OBNOXIOUS in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. KMaster888 (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Wikilawyering over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of the fourth of the five pillars. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

This is wikilawyering. And this is at ANI, so the discussion is taking place at ANI. Answering the concerns about your conduct that were raised here on here is how you resolve the issue, not "don't talk about it on ANI", as the latter gives the impression of trying to sweep them under the rug - especially since your edit summaries MrOllie linked above make it clear this is very much not "small potatoes". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Here's some more diffs of KMaster888 being uncivil. From my user talk page. . I think these are forgivable if in isolation since KMaster888 may be frustrated by false accusations of being a bot, but if it's a pattern, it may need addressing.

The WP:BLUDGEONING and WP:BADGERING of my user talk page and of this ANI is also a behavioral problem that, if a pattern, may also need addressing. It is disrespectful to interlocutor's time and brainpower to dominate discussions by replying to everything. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. KMaster888 (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The problem isn't you responding to those comments. It's about HOW you responded to those comments. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

There are, in fact, specific discussion rules - WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Propose indefinite block

Blocked and TPA revoked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• KMaster888 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

They demonstrate a severe inability to interact in the collegiate manner this project requires. The edit summaries are not merely uncivil, but dismissive: ignoring colleagues is worse than just being rude to them. Their behaviour on Novem Linguae's talk pretty much sums it up.Whether they are actually a bot or running a scruipt doesn't really matter: WP:BOTLIKE is pretty cl;ear trhat "it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance". So 10,000 edits or not, the edits smack of being bot/script-generated, and may also be WP:STALKING.I also don't set any store by the excuse for "wiping ass with comments", "improve asinine comment" and "remove asshole" being that Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. WMF servers going down (or not) do not cause aggressive edit summaries, and we are not fools. The fact that the same attitude pervades through this discussion—"everyone, get off my back"—suggests that this is default behaviour rather than a one off. SerialNumber54129 23:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

You're saying "they" like it's more than one person. I am one editor. KMaster888 (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Not in that sense. We use they/them pronouns as to not assume an editor's gender. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 23:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support per above reasoning. MiasmaEternal☎ 23:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

  Looks like Cullen328 beat us to that indef. MiasmaEternal☎ 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support per WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Their blank talkpage, on which they encourage discussion, has a nonexistent archive. Miniapolis 23:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

  That is not true. The archive page is at the subpage of the talk page, /archive. KMaster888 (talk) 23:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Support - While I wouldn’t have had the same suspicions about their editing as Warren, their extremely uncivil reactions to it and further questions here, along with the further attention they’ve drawn on to prior recent behaviour has effectively demonstrated an unwillingness to engage in meaningful interaction with any other editor who disagrees with them. Rambling Rambler (talk) 23:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe revoke TPA too? This is beyond the pale. closhund/talk/ 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Wow… Bgsu98 (Talk) 00:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked KMaster888 for personal attacks and harassment, and disruptive behavior. Cullen328 (talk) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

After their latest personal attack, I have revoked their talk page access. Cullen328 (talk) 23:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support. This personal attack against blocking admin Cullen328 is beyond the pale. This is clearly a person that lets rage get the best of them, and is not responsive to feedback. Not sure if we should close this, or let it play out and turn into a CBAN. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
• Good block and I'd have done same if you hadn't been here first. Regardless of whether the edits were improvements, no one has the right to treat other editors as KM888 did. Star Mississippi 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• Good block It'd take a hand-written miracle from God for them to change their ways anytime soon.

Tarlby 03:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Investigating the hounding claim

Above, there is a claim that KMaster888 is WP:HOUNDING Warrenmck by editing 100 pages that Warrenmck has edited. The editor interaction analyzer suggests that there's only an overlap of 45 pages (42 if you subtract out my user talk, KMaster888's user talk, and ANI). Warrenmck, can you please be very specific about exactly which pages overlap? Maybe give a link to KMaster888's contribs and timestamps of where this range of hounding edits begins and ends? This is a serious claim and probably actionable if enough evidence is provided. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Note that there are >100 edits across the pages, since they tended to edit in a spree. The number of pages you found seems accurate, even accounting for the possibility of a few outside of this exchange. I’m not sure what exactly I can do to show the relationship to my edit history beyond I guess go pull said histories and compare them? But I wouldn’t be surprised if the vast majority of the interactions you see were from that narrow window after your talk page.

Sorry for the drama, by the way. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Ah that makes sense. I didn't think of the multiple edits to a page thing. No worries about the drama. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Please don't apologise for this. Nobody should have to put up with such behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:47, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:FMSky

WP:BOOMERANG. PolitcalPoint blocked for a month for BLP violations. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

FMSky (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:FMSky has been persistently engaging in disruptive editing by constantly reverting (see , , and ) in bad faith over the course of more than a week in order to prevent the insertion of sourced material that states that Tulsi Gabbard had "touted working for her father’s anti-gay organization, which mobilized to pass a measure against same-sex marriage in Hawaii and promoted controversial conversion therapy", which is a discredited, harmful, and pseudoscientific practice that falsely purports to "cure" homosexuality." backed by two reliable sources cited (see and ) in support of the specific wording inserted into the article.

For my part, I have consistently maintained a strict self-imposed policy of 0RR, never even once reverting User:FMSky, listening to his concerns and taking his concerns seriously, tirelessly working to address his concerns with two reliable sources cited (see and ) in support of the exact same wording that User:FMSky originally objected to (see ), then, when reverted again by User:FMSky, I patiently continued to assume good faith and attempted to engage with him directly on his talk page not once but twice (see and ), which he pointedly refused to respond to on both occasions, then when reverted yet again by User:FMSky (see ), explained to him the entire series of events (see ), which User:FMSky replied to by blatantly lying that I had not addressed his concerns (see ), which, when I pointed that out and showed him the reliable sources that I cited in order to address his concerns (see ), User:FMSky replied by saying verbatim "How is that even relevant? Just because something is mentioned in a source doesn't mean this exact wording is appropriate for an encyclopedia." (see ).

I'm completely exasperated and exhausted at this point. If even using the exact same wording as the reliable sources cited in support of the specific wording inserted into the article is still unacceptable to User:FMSky, then I'm not sure what I'm even supposed to do to satisfy him. User:FMSky is clearly engaging in disruptive editing in bad faith and is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@PoliticalPoint, your source for "discredited, harmful, and pseudoscientific practice that falsely purports to "cure" homosexuality" doesn't mention Gabbard or Hawaii or her father's organization. Have you read WP:SYNTH? Schazjmd (talk) 23:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

More the case that trying to assert conversion therapy as discredited is a COATRACK, unless there was appropriate sourced coverage that associated Gabbatd with supporting a discredited theory. We can leave the blue link on conversion therapy carry the worry of explaining the issues with it, it doesn't belong on a BLP. — Masem (t) 23:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The wording does not "imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources" as the latter part of the wording, as supported by the second reliable source (see ), explains what conversion therapy is for the benefit of readers. --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you kidding me lmao. I didn't even notice that. That makes it even worse --FMSky (talk) 23:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Only commenting on this particular angle: @Schazjmd: when dealing with fringe ideas, it is sometimes the case that sources provide weight connecting the subject to a fringe idea but which do not themselves adequately explain the fringe theory. If it's due weight to talk about something like conversation therapy (or creation science, links between vaccines and autism, etc.), we run afoul of WP:FRINGE if we don't provide proper context. These cases are rare, however, and this isn't a judgment about anything in the rest of this thread. — Rhododendrites \\ 02:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The user was previously blocked and was only unblocked after agreeing to 0RR on BLPs. This was violated in the 3 reverts here and the concerns weren't adressed: 1, 2, 3. See also the previous discussion on PoliticalPoint's talk page that I initiated -- FMSky (talk) 23:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

FMSky replied by saying verbatim "How is that even relevant? Just because something is mentioned in a source doesn't mean this exact wording is appropriate for an encyclopedia. I love how you, in bad faith, left out the most relevant part that I added: "And the statements weren't even attributed to someone" --FMSky (talk) 23:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

As already pointed out to you at my talk page (see ), those were edits, not reverts, over the course of more than week, and as also already pointed out to you at my talk page (see and ) your concerns with the wording were in fact addressed with two reliable sources cited in support with the exact same wording that you objected to, verbatim. You are blatantly lying again, as the statement is, in fact, attributed to Gabbard herself as it is she herself who "touted working for her father's anti-gay organization", which is backed by the first reliable source (see ). --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

No, these were reverts, as the wording I originally objected to was restored numerous times --FMSky (talk) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Those were edits over the course of over a week. The wording that you originally objected to was restored only with two reliable sources that use the exact same wording verbatim. --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

If you used the same wording as the sources without an attributed quote you've committed a copyright violation. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:16, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Restoring removed content even without using the undo feature is a revert. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

See above, Gabbard isn't even mentioned in one of the sources, which is insane and negates the need for any further discussion. This content should not be on her page & is probably the definition of a BLP violation. --FMSky (talk)

Besides removing obvious SYNTH, I notice that FMSky reworked unnecessary overquoting; looks like good editing on FMSky's part. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Another thing I just noticed is that the article is special-protected: "You must follow the bold-revert-discuss cycle if your change is reverted. You may not reinstate your edit until you post a talk page message discussing your edit and have waited 24 hours from the time of this talk page message." No such discussion was initiated on Gabbard's talk page --FMSky (talk) 00:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• I have blocked PoliticalPoint for a month for BLP violations, an escalation of their prior two-week edit warring block. I had originally intended to just p-block them from Gabbard but I am not convinced they understand the issue and that the problematic editing wouldn't just move to another page. Should they eventually request an unblock I think serious discussion sould happen w/r/t a a topic ban on BLPs or American Politics. Star Mississippi 01:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating WP:BEFORE

• Bgsu98 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.
I noticed an editor named Bgsu98 who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by WP:BEFORE before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)
I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought.

I should note that Bgsu98 doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated Kamil Białas (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kamil Białas (2nd nomination)). One can really wonder why he does this.

P.S. More information is here: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Figure Skating#Notability guidelines. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE. It seems that no one acted on this change until Bgsu98 came.

P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time.

P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while Bgsu98 has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (source). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @Moscow Connection or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @Bgsu98 who is nominating based on community consensus. Star Mississippi 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. Liz 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

"However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules."
— They don't meet WP:NSKATE, but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet WP:GNG. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require WP:GNG, so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.
(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi and Liz: A WP:DRV, a deletion review? Is it maybe possible to undelete "Lilia Biktagirova" (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova)? Cause I was searching for sources for Alexandra Ievleva and found something like a short biography of hers, two paragraphs long.
Here: "Тренер Трусовой, почти партнерша Жубера, резонансная Иевлева: кто соревновался с Туктамышевой на ее 1-м ЧР (2008)".
And again, it was Bgsu98 who nominated the article back in May. And he was told, I'm quoting User:Hydronium Hydroxide: "There are a whole bunch of similarly deficient nominations. Really, such blanket nominations without evidence of WP:BEFORE and consideration of WP:ATD should be all procedurally kept as WP:SKCRIT#3 given lack of a valid deletion rationale." --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

After looking at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova, I think no one will say that I was incorrect about how people vote at AfD. There's even a comment like this: "WP:NSKATE lists some very clear criteria for inclusion, which this article does not meet." And then a more experienced user noted that you should actually search for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but no one actually searched and the article was deleted. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I have also found an interview with Lilia Biktagirova: . Yes, it is an interview, but there an editorial paragraph about her (an introductiion). There also a short paragraph here → . Not much, but considering she competed almost 20 years ago... --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes @Moscow Connection you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @Liz provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. Star Mississippi 14:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes @Moscow Connection you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @Liz provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. Star Mississippi 14:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates WP:BEFORE, otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no WP:BEFORE research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".
Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping BeanieFan11 and Doczilla. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

When closing one AfD, I made some observations about that day's many AfDs and noted in that one close regarding Bgsu98: "The nominator's burst of dozens of nominations within half an hour failed to stimulate any discussion about many of them." In my meager opinion, the massive number of rapid deletion nominations rather strongly might suggest, at the very least, a lack of due diligence regarding each and a likely violation of WP:BEFORE. Doczilla _{Ohhhhhh, no!} 07:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Moscow Connection claims to be polite, yet wrote the following: "random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom". Pinging Shrug02 who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time.

He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hanna Harrell: "By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated Kamil Białas 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"

I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. Moscow Connection seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• C'mon, User:Bgsu98, civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. Liz 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I apologize, Liz; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• Here's my take, User:Bgsu98. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. Liz 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @Moscow Connection to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @Liz I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @Moscow Connection is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @Bgsu98 and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while Bgsu98 directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)
  Also, a note to admins: Can it be that Bgsu98 finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".
  And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Moscow Connection I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @Bgsu98 pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @Bgsu98, making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @HyperAccelerated's comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. Shrug02 (talk) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  According to this, "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Moscow Connection

  Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people."

  No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion.

  If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep.

  I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon.

  All the best to everyone involved. Shrug02 (talk) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  Moscow Connection wrote the following in his original complaint: ”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.” I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met WP:GNG, the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. Bgsu98 (Talk) 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...

(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.

(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's exactly the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.

(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. Ravenswing 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

“Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria (What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. —

Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a WP: BOOMERANG. HyperAccelerated (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ValarianB (talk) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often really poor; many are simply Non-notable figure skater, which doesn't say much of anything. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  And @Moscow Connection, you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide proper sourcing for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created seventeen years ago -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. Ravenswing 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  The nominator has agreed to slow down, so the point is kind of moot, but I still wanted to make clear: Ravenswing, 45 AFDs rapidly is ridiculous, especially when next-to-no-BEFORE is done and there previously was no indication of stopping – remember that there's only a few editors in the topic area – and many of these, which are notable, require more than simple Google searches to find the coverage that demonstrates notability (i.e., for many, the coverage would be in places such as difficult-to-find offline newspapers in foreign languages) – making so many nominations rapidly without appropriate searches will inevitably result in some truly notable ones being deleted due to the lack of effort. While you may not care about the stubs, others do, and simply because the two editors who drive-by to the nom and say "Delete per above" didn't find coverage absolutely does not equate to the subject being confirmed non-notable. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  Actually, I have attempted to do something yesterday. I voted and commented on two nominations. ("Alexandra Ievleva" and "Viktoria Vasilieva".) Cause these two are Russian figure skaters, and I know they are famous enough. Immediately a user came and wholesale dismissed all the sources I found. I don't really want to play that game, it's too tiresome. I have found another source for Alexandra Ievleva just now. Let's see what the outcome will be.
  But really, I can't do it anymore. Maybe if these were articles I created, I would invest into searching for sources. Now, I just tried a little bit and saw that some people really want to delete these articles for whatever reason. There are a few people actually searching for sources at some nominations, but mostly it's just that old "you go and provide third-party reliable sources independent of the subject, so I can look at them and dismiss them" game.
  Okay, people will say I am the bad person here, but I have actually tried to save a couple of articles. I don't understand why people so eagerly want to delete articles than can actually be kept. (Okay, there are mostly interviews and short news about the figure skaters placing here and there or missing some events, but those sources are reliable enough. And one can actually take the sources into account and leave the articles be.)
  By the way, I have tried searching on what was once Yandex News, but the news search doesn't work anymore. (Here's an example.) There's nothing prior to 2024 when Yandex sold its assets including the news engine. And I can remember when the list of news articles there went back to 2003 or so... --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  What I’m reading is that you don’t like how AfD works, and there hasn’t been any departure from normal processes. ANI is not the appropriate venue to discuss these issues. HyperAccelerated (talk) 10:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm sorry if this looks like a ramble. These were initially two or three separate replies. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

...editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Just curious if you or anyone else honestly believes that the opinions of these editors takes priority over the view held in the real world that six million articles falls substantially short of "the sum of all human knowledge". One such view published almost five years ago contained the following statement: "According to one estimate, the sum of human knowledge would require 104 million articles". I know some of you are in serious denial and will try to suppress this as a result, but I'm gonna keep saying it anyway. We don't have the sum of all human knowledge, nor are we trying to achieve it. At best, we're the sum of what Google and legacy media has spoon-fed you today within the past X number of years. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions (posted 00:37, January 9, 2025 UTC)

RadioKAOS, I'm not going to argue about whose "view takes priority" in the area of the sum of human knowledge but in an AFD discussion, decisions are made by determining the consensus of the editors who bothered to show up and present compelling policy-based arguments. That is typically editors who are active on Misplaced Pages and have an opinion about an article, not any scholar coming up with estimates on the necessary number of articles we should have. How many AFDs do you participate in on a regular basis? And there is no one here that who will attempt to "suppress" your argument. As long as you are not personally attacking any editors, I think you are free to have whatever opinions you do have about this project. No penalty. Liz 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@Liz: The problem is that these editors who "bother to show up" don't equally represent the community. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are some people who are mainly active on AfD and who act as "gatekeepers".
A normal editor can easily not notice when a page is nominated for deletion, but the AfD regulars will come and vote "delete".
Also, I wonder how it happened that the NSKATE guidelines were changed so drastically. I think I have found a discussion about that but I am not sure. A user who was tired of people voting "keep per WP:NSPORT", proposed to get rid of the "Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports)" completely. And then there was a discussion with around 70 people attending. But for some reason at least some sports got spared the worst fate (or got out intact), while figure skating was "destroyed". Moreover, the Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports) revision history shows signs of edit warring. So it is just possible that the "deletionists" were the most active/agressive and they won. Some sports wikiprojects defended their sports, and some like WikiProject Figure skating weren't active at the time and didn't do anything. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not an AfD regular, and what happens there scares me. When I commented, people just bombarded me with "This is not a third-party reliable source independent of the subject", and it didn't look to me like they even knew what "third-party" was. (I could swear my source was third-party and reliable and independent, but they said it was not and bombarded me with some random links to the WP space.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

(nods) Heck, "some authority" came up with canards such as that we all ought to take 10,000 steps a day, drink eight glasses of water a day, and that our basal body temps are all 98.6. I likewise decline to bow before the suspect, threadbare wisdom of "one estimate" that we need 104,000,000 articles ... speaking of serious denial. (grins) Ravenswing 07:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@Ravenswing:, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.
And when I found another source, you said that there were "3 sentences" while there were actually 7.
I've looked at your contributions, you don't look like someone who can read Russian or has any interest in figure skating. So why are you doing this? (Okay, you can have the articles, you won.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Please be careful with the WP:ASPERSIONS, Moscow Connection. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

My 2 cents. In my experience, Bgsu clearly does not conduct BEFORE searches (and seems proud of it), ignores actual coverage of the subjects (even when present in the articles), mass nominates batches of articles (50 in 30 minutes is a hilarious example), consistently fails to adhere to AGF, quickly re-nominates articles when the result is not to their liking, inaccurately summarizes examples of SIGCOV when they are provided in discussions, and tops it off by clearing their XfD logs. JTtheOG (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

That's a significant number of evidence-free aspersions you're casting, would you like to evidence them? Incidentally, mass-nominating articles isn't necessarily an issue; I have done it in the past but I still examined each article before nominating them in one batch. Black Kite (talk) 21:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I do not wish to dig through hundreds of AfDs, no. Just providing what I've gathered in my experience. And I disagree that 50 AfDs in half an hour is not an issue.

Here is one example of the types of responses you can expect to get when you provide SIGCOV in one of his discussions: Nobody is going to add anything to this article. The same people pop up on these AFD's, squawk about how someone having their picture taken for their local newspaper qualifies as "significant coverage", and then the article is left in the same crappy condition it was when we started. JTtheOG (talk) 21:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

And here is an example of the nom wholly ignoring GNG and insisting on using deprecated NSPORTS guidelines after SIGCOV was added to the article. Dozens and dozens of more examples. JTtheOG (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Another example of ignoring SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: @Black Kite: 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and 10 more examples, all within a week of eachother and many with SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Here is an example from two days ago where they nominated a skater who finished top 4 at the World Championships because they assumed the sources in the article were the only sources available on the subject. JTtheOG (talk) 22:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

OK this AFD, coupled with the historical ones, is very concerning. I understand that not every editor is going to be able to find every source, but it appears that Bgsu98 does not even bother looking. I would support a topic ban from AFDs. GiantSnowman 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Here and here is an example of four users expressing their concerns about BEFORE searches and their misunderstanding of notability policies. More recently, concerns were raised here and here, although bgsu deleted the latter from their talk page with the message Stay off my talk page. You have some nerve using the term “good will” considering your appalling behavior. JTtheOG (talk) 22:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

And here are More and more and more and more and more and more and more examples of nom ignoring the concept of GNG and/or entirely disregarding SIGCOV already present in the article. As Liz notes here, close to 100 articles were deleted through PROD before I was able to contest them. Many of these that I contested and were later kept in AfDs with clear GNG passes are present among the examples I've given. JTtheOG (talk) 22:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks - anything more recent than May 2024? GiantSnowman 22:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you could provide some examples of a) a number of nominations in a short period of time and b) several AFDs where the rationale is deeply flawed. GiantSnowman 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

If you go to 10 May 2024 here, you get exactly 50 nominations in 30 minutes. A good number of those were kept per AFDstats. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Great, thanks - see above, I think we need an AFD topic ban. GiantSnowman 22:04, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, let's start with that I'm a frequent participant at ANI, and I no more "came here to defend" anyone than any other editor who's chimed in here. I dismissed those sources wholesale because I burned some time to look over each and every one of them (as did more than one editor), and found that not a single one of them provided the "significant coverage" in detail to the subjects that the GNG requires. As it happens, I have edited skating articles in the past -- you're not claiming to have truly gone through my whole twenty-year contribution history, are you?

So why am I doing this? Perhaps it's strange to you that anyone could act out of a dispassionate wish to uphold Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, instead of out of partisan motives, but you'll find that most ANI regulars do just that. Ravenswing 21:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

• I've participated in a lot of these AfDs, I believe mostly !voting delete, and I've gotta say I am not happy to see it implied that AfD participants were blindly going along with Bgsu. I guarantee that I perform thorough searches on every single AfD I !vote it, especially these mass-noms with essentially no rationale. Bgsu's noms are, for better or worse, fairly accurate and generally result in the deletion of articles that should be deleted. However, I have seen several examples of incivility and assuming bad faith from this user (although I have experienced neither myself) and I agree that the sheer quantity of nominations does not promote a healthy level of community input. The individual noms are generally okay, but mass noms like this one I found today, tried participating in, and gave up on can be a little overwhelming. I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for. Toadspike 22:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  I did say a few days ago I wasn't going to engage in this discussion any further but since I keep getting notifications about it I figured I'd weigh in as the conversation seems to have gone in a totally different direction. As @Toadspike and others have pointed out I too am not happy that it is being implied that people who voted in these AFDs are blindly following @Bgsu98 without doing any independent research. I refuted this on the figure skating talk page when this all started and on this page. Also, as has been previously pointed out by other editors, this particular discussion began with @Moscow Connection basically not liking the rules on significant coverage and then coming to this forum to seek retribution against @Bgsu98. Now it seems that their improper use of this forum, ref bombing of articles and general complaining that they don't like something and how unfair it is in their opinion, may actually lead to them getting what they want. This sets a very poor precedent that if you don't like something on Misplaced Pages and you jump up and down and wail about it enough you can get your way. Yes @Bgsu98 probably nominates too many similar articles at one time but they have agreed to slow down now, and yes they have nominated articles for AFD that have then been kept because significant coverage was found, but they have also nominated a lot of articles which have not been found to have significant coverage and have subsequently been deleted following the due, consensus based procedure and closed as such by an admin. @Moscow Connection is already seeking to have articles which have been deleted following AFDs unilaterally reopened. If you now sanction @Bgsu98 we may as well just give Jimmy Wales a call and ask him to hand over Misplaced Pages to the whims and wants of @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  • I haven't asked anybody to give Misplaced Pages over to me. What do you mean by "unilaterally reopened"? If you are refering to me asking Star Mississippi to undelete the "Lilia Biktagirova" article, what's wrong with it? It was deleted without a proper Google search, and I have found some sources for her. Just look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova. At the very end, a user that goes by the name of Kvng, noticed: No one in this discussion (including myself) has mentioned anything about searching for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but that was all, no one did anything. You and another user seem to have claimed here that you do a proper search on every Bgsu98's nomination, but I don't see you on that AfD page.
    You really sound like you think I'm doing something awful in my attempt to rescue an article. Come on, she's not someone terrible who wants to promote herself on Misplaced Pages or something. She's just a fairly famous figure skater. You don't need to defend Misplaced Pages from her. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
  • I've decided to save "Alexandra Ievleva" (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Alexandra Ievleva) and I've already found a couple of dozen articles talking about her. Yes, maybe the others will say those are mostly interviews and the Women's Sport website is not good enough, but I have found lots and lots about her! I don't think you or Bgsu98 would be able to do that cause you don't read Russian and don't know how to search (I tried to add different additional key words, and every time I found something new). --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    1 you don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what, 2 now you say I "don't know how to search" which is yet another unfounded suggestion that I don't make any effort before giving opinions on AFDs, 3 you don't know what searches were done on Lilia Biktagirova and neither do I, 4 I wasn't involved in that discussion and I try to focus more on adding to articles then deleting them, 5 my point was, and is, you don't like the rules so you have launched a campaign of complaining to try to get your way instead of going through the proper channels and seeking to get consensus to alter said rules. Frankly I'm tired of this and of you belittling everyone else as if you are the only person who knows what is right and are somehow able to read the minds and intentions of everyone else. Go ahead and, as you put it, "save" your Russian skaters. I genuinely hope you do and that the articles are filled with interesting and well-sourced information. That's the aim of Misplaced Pages to inform the population about things worth knowing. Shrug02 (talk) 00:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    • "You don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what"
      — What I do is called abductive reasoning. What you just did by claiming you can read Martian, I honestly don't know.
      I've started this discussion because I saw the user's 45 nominations at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating and that scared me a lot. --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

      It's called ironic humour and, with everything going on in the world right now, if a Misplaced Pages AFD scared you a lot then you are obviously in the very fortunate position to have so few worries. Anyway I'm moving on to spend my time more productively. I sincerely wish you the best in your endeavours. Shrug02 (talk) 01:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  • I appreciate your input and insight. As I told BeanieFan11 earlier, I promised to slow down on nominations, and in fact, I had decided that I wouldn't even entertain the idea of additional nominations until the ones already in the system work their way through.
    I can also promise to strive to be more thorough in researching these potential nominations and provide more detailed rationales in the future. I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two! Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
  • 20 nominations per day is 7300 per year. The limit should be more like 0. (And if it is decided to be 1 or something like that, Bgsu98 will have to demonstrate that he has searched for sources every time. I prefer 0, naturally.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  While I do not know whether @Bgsu98 should be restricted from AfD as I haven't been able to go into the weeds on this, I disagree with I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for. @Toadspike. No editor should be nominating 20 articles per day. That's unsustainable for AfD participants, clerks or closers. We do not have the editor volume to assess that many nominations from one nominator. Star Mississippi 00:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

• Of note. User JTtheOG is canvassing apparent like-minded editors to this discussion, here and here. Zaathras (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  They are not like-minded actually. In fact, both had previously expressed they disagreed with my initial assertions, which I had not yet provided evidence for. I was notifying them of examples being provided here of previously unsubstantiated aspersions. JTtheOG (talk) 23:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  "As per previous discussions..." I love hearing that JTtheOG is having discussions about me with other users, but has never once attempted to communicate directly to me. (Snide comments in AFD's don't count as broaching conversation.) Bgsu98 (Talk) 00:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  • If even that's true, no none came. (No one of the whole two.) And Bgsu98 did the same by pinging his like-minded AfD colleague. (He pinged him immediately.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
• As a fellow WP:FIGURE participant, and without having gone over the particular cases, I am normally a rather deletion-oriented editor but am an inclusionist for skating specifically as sources are not as online on this topic as usual, and often in foreign languages, so I am not usually in favor of deleting a skater's article unless we really do exhaust all possible sources of notability. I do request that @Bgsu98: convene a broader discussion over notability as I also do disagree with the current guidelines, but even without that a discussion is warranted. Even if a mass deletion is warranted, it should be handled in one mass AfD, not a gazillion separate ones.--Jasper Deng (talk) 01:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
• I came across this randomly in my watchlist.. can I recommend everyone take a step back and focus on the issue at hand? Currently, WP:BEFORE states the following: Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability: The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects. So, I'd ask @Moscow Connection: to please consider whether their views on BEFORE are in line with what it actually says. I appreciate that MC states many of these nominated articles are for non-English speaking and in some cases non-Western world skaters, and so it may not be possible to find many of the potential sources in an English language Google search.But MC, can you identify any deletion nominations for which there were sources that could be found in any of the following: a normal Google search, or a Google Books search, or a Google News search, or a Google News archive search? If you can identify such, please provide the deletion discussion, and a link or other method of showing us how you came across the sources on one of those searches. If you can't, then it sounds like your argument is more for expanding WP:BEFORE to require non-English language searches for non-English subjects. I take no strong view on whether it would be a good idea - I think that BEFORE should certainly recommend more far reaching searches for subjects who may not be satisfied by a Google search.. but required? Not everyone knows how to use other search engines, and they may not even know what terms to use (or be able to type them easily). And that doesn't even begin to touch the big problem with Google - Google results (if you're logged in, at least), are significantly based on your search history, and if you use Google Chrome browser (on mobile or PC), or the Android OS, they are also based on your usage of those platforms (such as websites visited, apps used, etc). So it's entirely possible that MC searching Google may see a result on the first page or two that someone else searching Google would not have seen on the first couple pages at all.Regardless, that's an argument/discussion to be had on another page (likely WP:VPP). Since this all seems to be a misconstruing of BEFORE by MC, and assuming everyone involved tones down the rhetoric, I'd recommend this move towards a reminder to MC that BEFORE, as it stands now, does not require anything beyond a Google (and Google News and Google Books) to be searched, and until that changes, the mere fact sources exist on other search engines does not constitute a violation of BEFORE unless there is evidence they would've been found through those search means. And I recommend that MC (or anyone, really) starts a discussion at the appropriate place if they think changes to BEFORE are necessary. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
  • I read this and tried to search some names from AfD on Google Books. A search for Nicole Nönnig's name definitely returns something non-trivial: ("Nicole Nönnig kehrte allerdings nach kurzer Pause zurück . Mit Matthias Bleyer bildete sie ein Paar , das 2003 sogar internationale Wettbewerbe bestritt . Die Schlittschuhe haben Nicole und Matthias inzwischen jedoch an den Nagel ..."). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    I'll leave this to others to discuss, but this is the type of "evidence" you would be expected to produce to show that the user did not comply with BEFORE. That said, one instance of mention in a book does not meet WP:GNG, so unless you can show that there are multiple instances of significant coverage in reliable sources that would've been found on a BEFORE, then it still doesn't mean that the user did not do a valid BEFORE. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Here's a link to the book: . (I've tried and tried, but I don't know how to add "bks" to the Google Books search URL.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    A search for "李宣潼" on Google News returned this article: and a couple more. The one I linked looks very solid, it is a full-fledged biography. (The AfD discussion is here: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Li Xuantong. As usual, the rationale is: Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    And one more article → about Li Xuantong and her partner Wang Xinkang (also nominated for deletion). It's like an article + interview, looks "massive". --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

• I know the entire thing is a bit of a long read, but I would like to note that Bgsu98's tendency to make XFDs without any regard for GNG/BASIC - even for those where GNG/BASIC is met (1, 2, 3) - dates back to May 2022. In fact, last year I issued a warning on their talk page (which they then deleted) that this issue was creating more work for editors, but this is still continuing as of late. There seems to be an IDHT issue with WP:NOTBURO. ミラP@Miraclepine 02:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Potential company editing?

Closing by OP request. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Bouchra Filali (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Djellaba (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The user Bouchra Filali uploaded this image to the page Djellaba. They share a name with a fashion company and seem to have replaced the original image on the article with a product from their company (see revision 1268097124). I reverted their edit and warned them, but due to my concern, and following advice from an administrator on the wikimedia community discord, I am reporting this here as well. I have also asked for advice on what to do with the commons file, and will be filing any necessary reports there. Cmrc23 ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ 04:49, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

They have only made one edit on this project which was adding an image to an article, it looks like they uploaded the image on the Commons. Have you tried talking about your issues with them on their Commons user talk page, Cmrc23? This doesn't seem like it's a problem for the English Misplaced Pages. We don't even know if they'll be back to make a second edit. Liz 06:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I asked the commons folks on discord and it seems that, since they uploaded an image that they own, all is well. I have to admit that I was a little hasty here, I've never used this noticeboard before. Feel free to close this if you feel there is nothing more to discuss, I'll monitor the user in question. Cmrc23 ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ 06:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Smm380 and logged out editing

• Smm380 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 195.238.112.0/20 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)

I have warned this editor twice about logged out editing because they are evidently editing the article history of Ukraine both logged in and as an IP. This makes tracking their edits more difficult since they have made hundreds altogether in recent months (and they are only focused on this specific article). The IP edits seem to come from 195.238.112.0/20 (at least most of them) and they are often made shortly before/after Smm380 decides to log back in. See for example this edit by Smm380 and this edit by the IP a few minutes later regarding the same section. This is now especially a problem because they are deciding to make reverts as an IP.

In general, they have not listened to prior warnings. I have given them multiple warnings about adding unsourced text, but they are still continuing to add unsourced text without including citations first. But they have not responded to any of my warnings or explained why they are still doing this. Mellk (talk) 09:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I noticed the concerns raised regarding edits made both from my account and an IP address, and I’d like to clarify that this was neither intentional nor malicious. I simply forgot to log into my account while making those edits.

I apologize if this caused any confusion. My sole intention was to improve content related to Ukrainian history, a topic I am deeply passionate about.

Regarding the delayed response to your messages, I sincerely apologize. I hadn’t noticed the notifications until recently, as I was unfamiliar with how Misplaced Pages’s messaging system works. Now that I understand it better, I’ll ensure to respond more promptly in the future.

I truly appreciate the valuable work you do to maintain the quality and reliability of Misplaced Pages. I will make sure to contribute responsibly and stay logged in during my future edits. Smm380 (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Another not here IP

Blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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2601:18C:8183:D410:1D8C:39C9:DCEE:1166 (talk · contribs) is altering another users posts to insert political commentary ] as well as making PA's, with a clear statement they do not intend to stop ], and edit warring over it as well. Slatersteven (talk) 14:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Now past 3rr reinsertion of their alteration of another users post. So its now vandalism. Slatersteven (talk) 14:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

As well as this tit for tat report ]. Slatersteven (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

IP blocked for edit warring. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Heritage Foundation planning to doxx editors

Closing to prevent a split discussion. The most central discussion about this is currently held at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. —Alalch E. 22:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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See current discussion on Heritage Foundation talkpage. Various sources are beginning to report on this, see , . It seems they plan to “identify and target Misplaced Pages editors abusing their position by analyzing text patterns, usernames, and technical data through data breach analysis, fingerprinting, HUMINT, and technical targeting,” and “engage curated sock puppet accounts to reveal patterns and provoke reactions, information disclosure,” and “push specific topics to expose more identity-related details.” An IP user on the discussion page says "they intend to add malicious links (sources) that will set cookies, grab your IP, and get tracking going for your device. This has likely already started. Be careful, there are lots of ways to hide where a link goes." Photos of Japan (talk) 17:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I think there's a far more productive discussion going on at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. BusterD (talk) 17:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

A friendly reminder: It's always a good time to review the strength and age of account passwords, plus consider two-factor verification. The world is constantly changing... BusterD (talk) 17:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Isn't doxing a federal/punishable offense in ten states (more or less), including DC? If they grab the information of or out a minor, that can easily be taken on as a form of harassment and won't end well. E_F 17:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

No doubt the Trump adminstration will make pursuing such cases a high priority. EEng 22:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm unsure why this isn't a WMF issue, due to potential legal and safeguarding issues. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The WMF has been made aware. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 19:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Truffle457

Editor blocked indefinitely. Liz 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Truffle457 (talk · contribs)

"Murad I the ruler of the Ottoman Turks seems to have been a blasphemous person"

"Bayezid I is not worthy of any praise, in fact this character unworthy to be known as a "thunderbolt".

"Suleiman I" is unworthy to be known for any magnificence, this character imposed the "Shari'a Law" upon 3 or more continents.

I don't even know what to call this. This user has few edits but most are like this. Beshogur (talk) 22:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

This is a new user with only a single level I notice on their page. I've issued a level II caution for using talk pages as a forum and added a welcome template. If this persists, stronger measures may be needed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Beshogur, I'd advise talking with an editor, through words, not templates, before filing a complaint at ANI. That's a general recommendation unless there is active vandalism going on. Liz 22:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

His comments are disturbing tbh. Beshogur (talk) 22:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The user's response to Ad Orientem's warning demonstrates that they have no insight into their misconduct and are WP:NOTHERE.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

 Indeffed per WP:CIR. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, by having a conversation, you discerned that CIR applied. Some communication, I think, is better than silence at least when you are trying to make sense of an unclear situation. Liz 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

YZ357980, second complaint

I have again reverted YZ357980's insertion of an image of dubious copyright; change of Somali Armed Forces native-name to an incorrect format; and violation of MOS:INFOBOXFLAG at Somali Armed Forces - see ] which had another editor fix the incorrect file format. I believe this editor is WP:NOTHERE and not willing to communicate and I would request administrator attention to this matter. Kind regards Buckshot06 (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

For the record, that image has been on Commons since 2015 and was made by a different user. That said, YZ357980 continues to make these borderline disruptive edits and has never posted on an article talk page or a user talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace until communication improves, as it is not optional. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

1. Thankyou!! Much appreciated!!

2. Yes I was aware of the status of those images, but I repeatedly told YZ357980 that it was of borderline copyright and WP had to follow US copyright law. I have managed to get the equivalent Iraqi ones deleted; I will go after the Somali ones to try to get them deleted.

3. Someone (an anon IP) posted on his talkapage as if replying, see . Please feel free to reconsider your actions should you wish, but I continue to believe YZ357980 is NOTHERE. Buckshot06 (talk) 18:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Given this which is clearly YZ not logged in, the block has been changed to full indef. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:01, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

My reverted edit at List of Famicom Disk System games

At worst, this deserves a {{minnow}}. This is, at heart, a content dispute, and Talk:List of Famicom Disk System games is the place to discuss it. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Hi

I added {{clear}} to the top of table of List of Famicom Disk System games to make the table use the whole horizontal space. I did it according to other list of video games articles and reception section of some video games articles to help the table list look better or not reception table to conflict with references (double column references more specifically).

However @NakhlaMan: reverted my edit and with a rude language called it "UGLIER" and calls it waste of too much space.

With my edit, it adds just a small space to the top of list heading but the table could be read easier and uses the whole available space. Shkuru Afshar (talk) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think this is the right place for this. Yes, the user could have been much nicer on their opinion, but this is too much of an escalation, too fast. I would advise commenting on their talk page, or on the page talk page. Cheers, Heart 04:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC) (Non-administrator comment)

Yes, their edit summary was mildly rude, but this is not actionable, please open a discussion on the article's talk page. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit War in Korean clans of foreign origin

Ger2024 blocked as a sock.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User: Ger2024

Ger2024 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Ger2024 has been Misplaced Pages:Edit warring and violated WP:3RR (they have as of now made five reverts) and possibly WP:NPOV despite my direct requests asking them to not engage in an edit war and to instead discuss with me and @CountHacker on the Talk Page. While they did respond to my efforts to try to talk to them on the Talk Page, they immediately then reverted my edits after they made their comments. The initial edits started when another Misplaced Pages user was verifying and deleting some info on the page (likely for factual accuracy) when the reverts began.

In regards to WP:NPOV, there is a POV push, despite the multiple corrections both I and @CountHacker have issued. We notified the user that the same source they are using from is generally considered historically unreliable because it is a collection of folklore and legends (the source, while a valuable insight into Korean folklore, claims that the founder of the Korean kingdom of Silla was born from a literal Golden Egg, so cannot be taken to be factual because humans cannot be born from Golden Eggs).

Despite trying to talk to them, they are just ignoring my and CountHackers actual points, and we even had more discussion but they just made their fifth revert.

This report belongs at WP:ANEW. Heart 05:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) (Non-administrator comment)

Who posted this complaint, they didn't leave a signature which, to me, shows a lack of experience. They also didn't leave any diffs so it's impossible to judge if there were indeed reverts. And as HeartGlow states, this is more suitable for ANEW which focuses on edit-warring. Liz 08:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Unclear if genuine question or rhetorical, but in case it's the former, it seems to be User:Sunnyediting99. (They have over 1000 edits and have been editing since 2022, but it appears they may be used to using the Reply tool, which might explain why they didn't think to ~~~~ since replying in that manner does that automatically? I think? ...Not trying to excuse it so much as I'm trying to understand it.) - Purplewowies (talk) 08:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I was a bit sleep deprived when I made, I'll go to WP:ANEW.

And yea im way too used to the reply tool, i think i make these posts like once perhaps every few months so i got a bit rusty on this. Thanks! Sunnyediting99 (talk) 13:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Subtle vandalism by 8.40.247.4

Excellent report results in a two-year block. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• 8.40.247.4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Since early 2020, User:8.40.247.4 has consistently and subtly made edits that:

• minimize achievements and contributions of black people in American society
• obscure or soften wording about right-wing and far-right leanings of conservative figures
• promote fringe, racist, or pseudo-scientific theories

The IP generally attempts to disguise the edits by lying about changes made in the edit summary. Here is a list of problem edits in chronological order:

Date	Page	Issue
Mar 4, 2020	McComb, Mississippi (diff)	Removal of section about black people gaining the right to vote with the Voting Rights Act.
May 31, 2020	John Derbyshire (diff)	Removes phrase describing VDARE, a white nationalist organization, as white nationalist. Summary: "Fixed a typo".
Jul 21, 2020	Richard Hayne (diff)	"Reorganised wording" means removing criticism. "made favourable LGBT commentary more vivid" (what?) replaces the subject's stance on homosexuality with a vague and unsourced statement about Urban Outfitters and the Hayne family.
Jul 28, 2020	Louie Gohmert (diff)	Softens "opposes LGBT rights" to "generally opposes LGBT rights legislation". Removes the words "defamatory" from section on Gohmert's false allegations. Removes whole section on Gohmert's opposition to making lynching a hate crime. Summary: "Grammatical issues."
Sep 24, 2020	Back-to-Africa movement (diff)	Omits the context of Christians accepting slavery when the slaves were Muslim to make it sound like religious Americans had always been morally opposed
Jan 14, 2021	Virginia Dare (diff)	Removes description of VDARE as a group associated with white supremacy and white nationalism.
Apr 28, 2021	Bret Stephens (diff)	Hides his climate change denial, so the sentence now basically reads "Bret Stephens has an opinion on climate change". Uses summary "Removed redundancy" (it wasn't redundant).
June 25, 2021	John Gabriel Stedman (diff)	Removes sentence on pro-slavery leanings (admittedly unsourced) and sexual exploitation of one of his slaves (sourced). Summary: "Minor grammatical / spelling errors revised."
Oct 7, 2021	Appalachian music (diff)	Replaces the "various European and African influences" in the introduction with a phrase implying the music's origins were European, and that African-American influence only came later, which is untrue. Rewords " call and response format ... was adopted by colonial America" to say " ... was also common in colonial America". Removes entire paragraph about African-Americans introducing the banjo to white Southerners. Further down, changes "African banjo" to just "banjo". Summaries: "Added links to traditional folk music wikis" and "Verbiage clean-up".
Nov 27, 2021	Steve Sailer (diff)	Removes all mention of Sailer, backed by sources, as holding racist, white supremacist, and anti-semitic views in the introduction. Removes description of Sailer's human biodiversity theory as pseudoscientific and racist. Summary is "Added a link to human biodiversity" – true, but leaves out the 6,000 deleted bytes. Makes the same edit two more times, but is reverted each time.
Jan 26, 2022	Mongoloid (diff)	Removes phrase calling it a disproven theory. Replaces sentence on racist origins in Western scholars with mention of Eastern scholars also promoting the theory (unsourced). Adds a phrase saying that actually, it's up for debate.
Jul 6, 2022	Indian Mills, New Jersey (diff)	Deletes phrase about white colonists displacing Native American families. Summary: "Removed a dead link".
Feb 20, 2023	Myth of meritocracy (diff)	Changes sentence on institutional racism to describe it as "theoretical institutional racism".
Mar 26, 2023	Millford Plantation (diff)	Hides the plantation's origins in slavery by renaming description from "forced-labor farm" to "farmstead". Summary: "Added link to slavery in the USA".
Jun 17, 2023	John Birch Society (diff)	Removes mention of the society being right-wing, far-right, and radical right in introduction. Further down, removes description as being ultraconservative and extremist, and Southern Poverty Law Center's classification as antigovernment. Summary: "Removed faulty and vague links."
Jan 9, 2025	Robert Gould Shaw (diff)	Removes sentence on the battle inspiring African-Americans to join the Union Army during the Civil War. Summary: "Grammatical clean-up".
Jan 9, 2025	Virginia Dare (diff)	Edits the page again four years later, this time using VDARE's closing as an excuse to remove all mention of it. Claims it is "no longer relevant", which is a crazy argument.

The IP doesn't make enough edits at a time for vandalism warnings to rise to level 4, and thus has never been blocked (which is why I'm reporting this here and not at WP:AIV). These groups of edits are also spaced out over months, so a different user warns the IP each time (eight times so far!). The user, unfamiliar with the IP's editing history, treats the old warnings as "expired" and simply issues another level 1 or 2 warning.

I believe this IP should be banned for a while. Unfortunately, there are probably many more like this one that haven't been caught yet. --Iiii I I I (talk) 09:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I spot checked these and yeah this is bad. Using false and misleading edit summaries to remove in most cases sourced descriptions to slant articles. spryde | talk 12:42, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Jesus Christ. Blocked for two years, since it looks like the IP is stable. charlotte 15:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you! Iiii I I I (talk) 19:08, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I think this discussion is a good example of providing all the infomation needed to the admins to make the decision. If only everyone who complained here did the same. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:16, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Egl7, anti-Armenian behaviour

Egl7 indef'd for being here to argue instead of building an encyclopedia. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Egl7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Egl7 clearly has bone to pick with Armenia, including dancing on the fine line of Armenian genocide denial, not to mention severe WP:CIR issues. As a Russian admin admit perfectly put it when they indeffed Egl7; "Since the participant clearly came to Misplaced Pages to fight, I have blocked him indefinitely, because with such edits one cannot expect constructiveness from him."

1. Egl7 never tries to take responsibility for their actions, instead being upset and obsessing over that I didn't revert a random IP that added "Armenian" under "common languages" in an infobox almost two years ago , mentioning that 7 (!) times
2. According to Egl7, having three things (out of 25) about Armenia on my userpage - being part of the WikiProject Armenia, being interested in the history of Greater Armenia, and opposing the denial of the Armenian genocide, means I support "Armenia's actions" , whatever that means. They never explained it despite being asked to, which leads me to the next thing.
3. Here is this incredibly bizarre rant by Egl7 for me having stuff about Armenia on my userpage and not Azerbaijan, accusing me of anti-Azerbaijani sentiment and whatnot;
4. Egl7 does not understand when someone is not interested in engaging in WP:FORUM whataboutism, instead resorting to WP:HARASS, first on my talk page , then an article talk page , then their own talk page . This random question about the Khojaly massacre appeared after I asked them if they denied the Armenian Genocide since they considered me having a userpage about it part of "supporting Armenia's actions". According to this well sourced Wiki section , the term "genocide" is a "fabrication" for the Khojaly massacre, which is "used to counter the narrative of the Armenian genocide."
5. Dancing on the fine line of Armenian genocide denial, if not denying it
6. Despite being blocked on the Russian Misplaced Pages for it, their first action here was trying the very same thing they were indeffed for ; changing "Nakhichevan" (Armenian spelling) to "Nakhichivan" (Azerbaijani spelling)
7. I truly tried to have WP:GF despite their disruptive conduct and previous block, but this user is simply WP:NOTHERE. There also seems to be severe WP:CIR at hand, as they struggle understanding a lot of what I say, including even reading WP:RS, which I had to ask them to read 5 (!) times before I gave up. As seen in our long discussion , they also to struggle understand basic sentences/words, such as the difference between "official" and "common".

I'm not going to respond to Egl7 here unless an admin wants me to. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour

WP:BOOMERANG. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User talk:HistoryofIran

@HistoryofIran clearly has bone to pick with Azerbaijan, including reverting my good-faith work which includes correction of arrangement of the "Today is part of" infobox following the country, in which, at present, the largest part of the territory of the Nakhchivan Khanate is located. @HistoryofIran is reverting back changes, saying that my https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&diff=prev&oldid=1268162595 edit is not an improvement without any real reason and without offering any argument. Also they are stating that there is a restriction according to Misplaced Pages:GS/AA, while ignoring edits of other users. I asked them many times to open a discussion so both sides could offer different proposals which in turn would lead to a consensus. In response all my requests were ignored. Also they have been accusing me of having conflicts with other users and countries while I have never noted or mentioned any and they have been impolite to me all the time, while i have never been impolite or rude to them. I want to say that I am blocked on ru.wikipedia, again, because of no real reason(They are vandalizing and projecting their actions onto me) and now i'm even worried that en.wikipedia will do the same to me.

They are also dancing on the fine line of denying Khojaly massacre, if not denying it.

Thank You. Egl7 (talk) 15:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

• Boomerang this is a clearly retaliatory filing. I think Egl7 is WP:NOTHERE. Simonm223 (talk) 15:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
• Boomerang obvious retaliatory filling. Lavalizard101 (talk) 15:07, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

As a non-EC editor, you should not be discussing Armenia/Azerbaijan issues at all except for making specific, constructive edit requests on the relevant talk pages. Once you received notice about the restriction, none of your related edits were in good faith, and all may be reverted without being considered edit warring. And quite frankly, the diffs that HistoryofIran has presented about your behavior don't look great. Your behavior on Russian Misplaced Pages doesn't affect your rights on English Misplaced Pages, but since you brought it up, I have to agree that you were there and now here more to fight than to edit a collaborative encyclopedia. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@CoffeeCrumbs tell me, please, if there is a restriction why are everybody's edits are ignored except mine? You are not doing justice. Egl7 (talk) 15:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Because the restriction is specific to people who do not have extended confirmed status. Simonm223 (talk) 15:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

i know that i'm being picky and can sound like a snitch, don't get me wrong, but, at least, i'm editing from an account while other users are editing from random IPs. How is it possible for a random IP to have an extended confirmed status? Egl7 (talk) 15:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The person you created this obviously retaliatory report against is not an IP and does have EC status. The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward. Simonm223 (talk) 15:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not taking about @HistoryofIran here. Look up the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&action=history. You can see that there are IPs, edits of which were ignored even if those edits have been done after the restriction had been set. This is what makes it unfair. By this logic my edits should've been ignored too. Egl7 (talk) 16:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

No IP has edited the page in question in nearly a year. You are complaining about a non-issue. _signed, Rosguill 16:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The restriction has been set much earlier than a year. Egl7 (talk) 16:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Right, but at ANI we deal with urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. The IP edits here are old news. Further, having now reviewed the page's last 5 years of history...out of 7 IP edits made, 5 were reverted almost immediately, 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (Special:Diff/1203058517), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (Special:Diff/1177447457, which added "Armenian language"). You'll notice upon minimal investigation, however, that HistoryofIran's most embattled edits to this page were to remove "Armenian language" from the article in July of 2023; it's rather disingenuous to accuse them of all people of turning a blind eye here. _signed, Rosguill 16:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

This does not refute what I said above. Egl7 (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

There are actually 2 or more of them. I guess it's his duty to support both sides and remove or add information which is or is not necessary. Egl7 (talk) 16:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here at this point, but it also doesn't matter. HoI raised multiple valid concerns regarding the quality of your editing in an area that per our community guidelines, you should be intentionally avoiding. In response, you filed a retaliatory report and are now arguing technicalities that are tangential to the substance of HoI's initial report. The fact that you are arguing such trivial, irrelevant points is evidence against you in these proceedings. Your best course of action is to follow Simonm223's advice above. Failure to take that advice at this point is almost certain to end with you blocked. _signed, Rosguill 16:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? Egl7 (talk) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

It's not. However, someone making an inappropriate edit without being caught does not make your inappropriate edits into appropriate ones. There have been many successful bank robberies in history, but that doesn't mean I'm allowed to rob the bank next to my grocery store. You need to start focusing on how you conduct yourself, not on how others do, because right now, you appear to be headed towards a block. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 16:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I understand you. But i want to note that no matter how successful are the robberies, a lengthy criminal investigation will be launched. In addition, i want to say that i wasn't aware of those edits before I did mine. Egl7 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

You did receive a warning on your talk page. Your conduct issues are not limited to violating ECP. You would be wise to heed the advice given in this thread from Simonm223 and Rosguill. The community does not have much patience for nationalist editing. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? Egl7 (talk) 16:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:GS/AA, The restriction applies to all edits and pages related to the topic area, broadly construed. That includes complaints about other editors. Which you should know already, as you have been repeatedly warned about GS/AA and should have read that page carefully. _signed, Rosguill 16:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

So Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident, which in my case is "HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour"? I am asking this because you said that "The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward". And still, what you said in this comment does not refute what I said above. Egl7 (talk) 16:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Lists of everyone that has been sanctioned for GS/AA violations, or CT/AA violations more broadly, can be found at Misplaced Pages:General_sanctions/Armenia_and_Azerbaijan#Individual_sanctions and further at WP:AELOG under each year's Armenia-Azerbaijan (CT/A-A) section. Note that this only lists people who repeatedly ignored warnings and got blocked for it, simple reverts are not logged. I would encourage you to avoid getting your own username added to that list. _signed, Rosguill 15:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

• All I see is Egl7 doubling down. I have already tried to tell them that there was nothing wrong with the IP edit they are fixiated on, and that it doesn’t excuse their unconstructice edits regardless. The fact that they were caught red handed in genocide denial and anti-Armenian conduct and then fruitlessly attempts to make me appear as the same with Azerbaijanis by copy-pasting part of my report and replace “Armenian” with “Azerbaijani” says a lot about this user. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  @HistoryofIran "There was nothing wrong"

  As @Rosguill said 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (Special:Diff/1203058517), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (Special:Diff/1177447457, which added "Armenian language").

  As I understand you were aware or now are aware of those edits done by those IPs what tells me that you admit that you ignored or are ignoring the edits that have been done after the restriction has been set and now you are still stating that there was or is nothing wrong with those IPs' edits. Egl7 (talk) 16:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  And we're done here. If you can read my comments here close enough to try to use them to make tendentious arguments at HoI, you should be able to understand that I already told you this is not even slightly appropriate. _signed, Rosguill 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  I endorse this block. Cullen328 (talk) 20:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Category:

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