| Revision as of 20:29, 8 December 2009 editAndriy155 (talk | contribs)302 edits →Are you for Ukraine as the democratic independent state VS for the Ukraine as a Russia's colonial province← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 17:12, 25 December 2024 edit undoKhajidha (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users28,088 edits →Remove all mention of Russian: ReplyTag: Reply | ||
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| This is a subpage of ] for discussing the name of the article ]. Please take '''all''' discussion of the name here, reserving the regular talkpage for other matters. I hope that this division will benefit both the regular talkpage and the name discussion itself. Happy editing. ] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]. | |||
| <p>Please note that due to technical reasons any actual ] need to be made on ], but should be moved here after they are listed on ].</p> | |||
| <p>Also, please note that in addition to the formal requested moves listed below, there have also been a considerable number of other proposals, ], etc. suggesting a change of name from ''Kiev'' to ''Kyiv'' or vice versa. Proposals can be found in the archives.</p> | |||
| }} | |||
| {{Round in circles}} | |||
| {{Talk:Kyiv/naming/old discussion list}} | |||
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| == Remove all mention of Russian== | |||
| This is a subpage of ] for discussing the name of the article ]. Please take '''all''' discussion of the name here, reserving the regular talkpage for other matters. I hope that this division will benefit both the regular talkpage and the name discussion itself. Happy editing. ] | ]. | |||
| Please note that due to technical reasons any actual move requests need to be made on ], but should be moved here after they have closed. ] (]) | |||
| {{archive box|], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ]}} | |||
| ;Summary of older discussions over naming the article | |||
| Partial list of previous move requests: | |||
| *] | |||
| *] | |||
| *] | |||
| *] | |||
| *] | |||
| *] | |||
| *] | |||
| == Strong arguments == | |||
| It is spelled as Kyiv in English language because: | |||
| 1) Ukrainian government insists on Kyiv spelling | |||
| 2) The State Department of the U.S. issued a directive to write Kyiv | |||
| 3) The Prime Minister of the U.K. calls the city Kyiv | |||
| 4) United Nations Multilingual Terminology Database (the ultimate body on geographical names) approved it as Kyiv | |||
| 5) Major English speaking governments worldwide switched to Kyiv spelling | |||
| 6) CIA refers to the city as Kyiv | |||
| 7) The name of the famous football club is Dynamo Kyiv | |||
| 8) Many papers, e.g., British The Guardian, are already writing Kyiv | |||
| 9) All major Canadian media already use the spelling of Kyiv | |||
| 10) and many more reasons http://kyiv.of-cour.se/ | |||
| (] (]) 10:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| == Misplaced Pages - look in the mirror ... == | |||
| Dear Misplaced Pages! | |||
| We noticed something interesting today. When we ventured to ... | |||
| http://en.wikipedia.org/Kiev#City_name_evolution | |||
| ... you very properly state, that: | |||
| <blockquote>“since the 1995 adoption of Kyiv by the Ukrainian government as a preferred spelling, the Ukrainianized version Kyiv is gaining usage”.</blockquote> | |||
| So, as you further state, it appears the name Kyiv is gaining usage by many notable entities, such as ... | |||
| <blockquote>“Ukrainian government, | |||
| United Nations, all English-speaking foreign diplomatic missions, | |||
| several international organizations, Encarta encyclopedia, | |||
| and by some media, notably in Canada and Ukraine | |||
| United States federal government, Monopoly”</blockquote> | |||
| ... EXCEPT you, Misplaced Pages, as we see in THE NAME of your article that describes the city of Kyiv. | |||
| Shame! Get it right - NOW, please ... | |||
| http://en.wikipedia.org/Kyiv | |||
| ... must be THE NAME of the article and ... | |||
| http://en.wikipedia.org/Kiev must redirect to the article ... | |||
| http://en.wikipedia.org/Kyiv | |||
| Sincerely, | |||
| Mumbai & Beijing | |||
| (as told to ] (]) 01:32, 30 September 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :lost cause :( --] (]) 08:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :: Perhaps lobby the BGN folk. WP follows convention, not creates convention. ] ]</font> 16:11, 15 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == Kyiv vs Kiev == | |||
| The official name of the city, is Kyiv.... Ukrainians living in Ukraine as well as around the world make this common mistake since. Verkhovna Rada, the Ukrainian Parliament has made this decree... I feel that as Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia it should reflect the CORRECT information not information that has made us complacent. | |||
| thank you | |||
| http://www.rada.gov.ua/const/conengl.htm | |||
| --] (]) 19:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :Misplaced Pages is not the official mouthpiece of the Rada. Only common English usage matters and the common English spelling of Kyiv is still Kiev. That is the guiding principle of Misplaced Pages. (] (]) 00:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| : Well this is an instance again where b.s. editors are wrong. If a country has come out and said this is the way we want our english translations to slavic words it should be respected. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| The official name of ] is...London. However it appears in the Ukrainian Misplaced Pages as Лондон. Why? Because that's how Ukrainians spell it (just as the French spell it Londres, which is how it appears on French Misplaced Pages). The principle is no different with Kiev. English-speakers have always spelt it Kiev, just as they have always spelt Köln as Cologne and Venezia as Venice. It's a fact of life and no amount of bickering over name changes is going to make any difference. There is no earthly reason why English Misplaced Pages should be a special case - until every Misplaced Pages changes its spellings to the spellings in use in the country of origin I see no reason why English Misplaced Pages should be obliged to change spellings in long use in English-speaking countries just because a city happens to have changed its official name. -- ] (]) 16:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| : Agree, I will add a short, but impressive list of facts of why it is spelled as ] in English language: | |||
| :: 1) Ukrainian government insists on ] spelling | |||
| :: 2) The State Department of the U.S. issued a directive to write ] | |||
| :: 3) The Prime Minister of the U.K. calls the city ] - http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page20199 | |||
| :: 4) United Nations Multilingual Terminology Database (the ultimate body on geographical names) approved it as ] - http://unterm.un.org/dgaacs/unterm.nsf/WebView/B57BF6AB5F06749B85256DC700440AAD?OpenDocument | |||
| :: 5) Major English speaking governments worldwide switched to ] spelling | |||
| :: 6) CIA refers to the city as ] - https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/up.html | |||
| :: 7) The name of the famous football club is ] (recognised worldwide) | |||
| :: 8) Many papers, e.g., British The Guardian, are already writing ] | |||
| :: 9) All major Canadian media already use the spelling of ] | |||
| :: 10) and many more reasons and references on http://kyiv.of-cour.se/ | |||
| ::: Let's initiate another discussion and make the final change. We have waited too long already. (] (]) 21:46, 28 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 are all irrelevant to the discussion. Misplaced Pages is not the mouthpiece of any government or governmental agency. The ''only'' relevant facts are common English usage, not ''official'' English. And your number 10 is a link to a website from which you have copied this list verbatim ''without'' any further "reasons or references". It remains to be seen whether enough modern reliable sources are using "Kyiv" at this time to make the change. (] (]) 23:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| ::By the way, what is your relationship to the website at ? (] (]) 23:46, 28 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| (outdent) In case you haven't read it, here is the discussion and result the last time the issue was thoroughly discussed (Sep 2008): . Before you continue on, you should familiarize yourself with the issues and not repeat them here. (] (]) 03:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| == Requested move October 2009 == | |||
| <div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop --> | |||
| :''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. '' | |||
| The result of the proposal was '''consensus against move'''. Overwhelming and varied evidence provided that Kiev is currently the ] for the city.--] (]) 01:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| ] → ] — This issue has not been visited formally for a year (September 2008 as far as I recall). There is steady nationalistic pressure to change the title and a recent case of soliciting meat puppets was discovered. I don't really care one way or the other (I personally always use Kyiv outside Misplaced Pages), but simply want to gauge Misplaced Pages consensus (again). How common is the Kyiv spelling outside the government and official channels? How common is the Kiev spelling? Obviously anything written before 2004 or so is going to have Kiev, but how about during the past two or three years? Has there been a significant shift to Kyiv in non-governmental sources? Are English speakers shifting to Kyiv? ] (]) 11:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Results of September 2008 Renaming Survey=== | |||
| is the last time that the move issue was officially visited with a move request, discussion, and survey. The results of the survey were 11 Oppose, 1 Neutral, 2 Support. The arguments there almost entirely focused on three things: 1) Google hits, 2) Ukrainian official policy, and 3) Misplaced Pages's relation to governmental policies. There were no comprehensive surveys of English common usage at that time. (] (]) 04:01, 1 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| ===Survey=== | |||
| I have, as promised, carefully replaced the survey results here that were added yesterday. (] (]) 11:33, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * '''Neutral'''. I asked my questions above. While the data clearly point to "Kiev" as the most common English usage (at least in the U.S.), I am sitting out the survey. (] (]) 11:33, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' per the reasoning provided in the last many previous renaming discussions, and the evidence provided below by the nominator showing that "Kiev" is the predominant form used. (as of the time of my signature) ] (]) 22:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' The evidence provided seems to indicate that Kiev is by far the more common name (not that it matters, the article on Myanmar is located at it's former name of Burma). '''<span style="border: 2px Maroon solid;background:#4682B4;font-family: Monotype Corsiva">] ]</span>''' 22:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' I cannot see any reason why transliteration of Ukrainian language should have precedence over English language spelling on English wikipedia.--] (]) 23:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' this is a plain case of common sense. This is the '''English wiki''' and common English names are to be used (even if they are English translations). This wiki is written in the English language and read by the English-speaking world. Original and/or native names should NOT be used "here". ] (]) 23:33, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' considering the data, it has to remain Kiev. ] (]) 17:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *Is there enough data now? I have assembled mostly U.S. data and it strongly points to "Kiev" as the most common English spelling here. How about other English-speaking countries? The three or four news sources from the U.K. that we have also point to "Kiev". Are there other (non-governmental) sources that we need to be looking at? (] (]) 11:38, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' as before. Kiev is the English name that English speakers recognize. Arguing for the Ukrainianised form is well and good, but Ukrainian isn't even the language of modern Kiev, so I don't understand why the Ukrainian form ought to have any authority. ] (<small>]</small>) 18:19, 30 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per common English language usage at BGN database. When it changes, my vote changes. Personally I would like to see the rename, that is why I look to an ''unbiased'' source. ] <small>]]</small> 18:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' ] would also consult the Library of Congress country study, and the ''New Cambridge Modern History'', but even if they tilted the other way (and I don't expect it), the evidence below is robust. ] <small>]</small> 23:56, 30 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Kiev remains the most common spelling in English. Thanks for the conclusive evidence of usage collected below. ] (]) 23:59, 30 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Kiev seems outdated and conservative spelling of the city name. Please see reason provided by Christian Science Monitor for abolishing using Kiev and switching to Kyiv earlier this year --] (]) 00:00, 2 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::I believe that Andriy155 means "Kiev seems outdated and conservative..." rather than "Kyiv...". (] (]) 13:00, 2 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :::Thanks! Fixed.--] (]) 04:32, 13 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Evidence collection: usage in English-language texts=== | |||
| I'd like to make a very strong suggestion in an attempt to get the most out of the following discussion - '''let's keep the discussion tightly focussed on reporting actual usage of each name in the English language'''. | |||
| All the arguments based on governmental decrees, transliteration systems, relative number of Ukranian/Russian speakers, the etymologies - we've heard it all before. These arguments are thoroughly documented in the previous discussions, and we don't need to waste time and kilobytes trawling through it all again - and most importantly none of these issues have changed since the previous discussions. The one thing which may have changed since the other discussions is actual usage in English-language texts, so if we focus on this we will use our time most productively. | |||
| I suggest collecting data from a wide-range sources that represent a selection of reliable English-language sources (i.e. not just crude Google counting, including any blog, raw data file and script-generated text that's been dumped on the net - see ]). With enough good-quality evidence, it will be far easier to come to a consensus on the strength of the case. | |||
| Please provide links for verification, and (if possible) an indication of the year the usage comes from. ] (]) 14:04, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :I completely concur and have removed the survey from the proposal for now. Once data have been assembled and we are ready, I'll repost the survey and we can gauge where consensus might (or might not) stand. (] (]) 14:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :: It is a noble effort, you have spent a great deal of time on this, in the end, the article name will remain as is per my note at the bottom. If we are driven by a love for Kiev, then we should put our energies toward getting the article to GA or FA, not yet another debate on naming. (This should be moved to the Naming sub-page where this has all been discussed in painful detail before.) ] <small>]]</small> 17:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::I agree about the futility of all naming debates here. Rather than moving every debate to the naming sub-page immediately after closure, perhaps we should leave the last debate in situ until the next one starts. That way it's easier to see for casual browsers who might want to engage in the next round. (] (]) 17:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| ===Data Demonstrating Common Usage=== | |||
| ====English-language newspapers and news websites==== | |||
| * ], last five years in major US and world publications: , (] (]) 16:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| =====United States===== | |||
| ======Newspapers====== | |||
| :* ], last five years: , ---] (]) 14:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* ], since Aug 31, 2009: , ; since Jan 1, 2004: , (] (]) 14:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :* ], since Sep 29, 2009: , ; since Jan 1, 2004: , (] (]) 15:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :* ], search 1980 to present (I can't see how to limit search by year): , . (] (]) 18:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :: However, as of May 2009 Christian Science Monitor switched to the spelling of Kyiv --] (]) 23:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* ], Jan 1, 2004 to present: , (] (]) 00:34, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :* ]: (from June 2002, latest Oct 1 of this year), (from Sept 20, 2007) (] (]) 04:01, 2 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| ======News Magazines====== | |||
| :* ], up to present (I didn't see how to constrain the dates usefully): , (] (]) 18:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :* ], Jan 2004 to present: , (] (]) 18:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :* ], Jan 2004 to present: , (] (]) 00:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :* ] (CQ=Congressional Quarterly), from Jan 2004 to present: (searches do no have individual addresses) Kiev 3, Kyiv 0 (] (]) 00:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| ======Television News====== | |||
| :* ], from October 2008 to present: , (] (]) 02:45, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :* ], all articles (no way to constrain results): , (] (]) 04:11, 2 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :* ]: (most recent Oct 20 of this year), (most recent from April 5, 2008) (] (]) 04:11, 2 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| =====Canada===== | |||
| :* ], from a few years ago to present (site wasn't clear about extent of data base): (most recent from Oct 24 of this year), (most recent from Oct 20 of this year) (] (]) 12:59, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :* ], from a few years ago to present (site wasn't clear about extent of data base): (most recent from Oct 22 of this year), (most recent from Oct 13 of this year) (] (]) 12:59, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :* ], from Jan 2004 to present: , (] (]) 12:59, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| =====United Kingdom===== | |||
| :* ], Jan 2009 to present in World News-Ukraine: , (] (]) 18:39, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :* ], 1995-2009: , . ---] (]) 14:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* ], Jan 2004 to present: , (] (]) 18:12, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :* ], Jan 2004 to present: , (] (]) 18:15, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| =====Australia===== | |||
| :* ], since 2007: , . ---] (]) 14:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| =====Ireland===== | |||
| :* ], from 1996 to present (couldn't find a way to limit search): (most recent from Oct 21 of this year), (most recent from Feb 24 of this year) (] (]) 12:22, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| =====South Africa===== | |||
| :* ] (Johannesburg), from Jan 1, 2004 to present, in Archive: Kiev 80, Kyiv 0 (] (]) 04:31, 2 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| ====Works of general reference: encyclopaedias, standard histories==== | |||
| * ] city page - , country map - ---] (]) 14:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC) (provided city page link), ] (]) 00:01, 2 November 2009 (UTC) (provided country map link) | |||
| * ] - ---] (]) 14:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| * ] - ---] (]) 14:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| * ''Countries and Their Cultures, Vol. 4'' by Ember & Ember - (] (]) 00:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * ] - (] (]) 17:09, 31 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| ====Academic use (journal papers/academic books with direct relevance to Ukraine)==== | |||
| *], from Mar 1, 2004 to present: , (] (]) 16:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| *], from Mar 1, 2003 to present: , (] (]) 16:26, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| *], from Jan 2004 to present: , (] (]) 16:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| *], from 2001 to present: , (] (]) 16:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * ], from Jan 2004 to present: , (] (]) 16:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * ] (academic data base of books and journals in humanities), from Jan 2004 to present: , (] (]) 00:08, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * ] (academic data base of books and journals in sociology), from Jan 2004 to present: , (] (]) 00:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * ] (academic data base of historical atlases): , (] (]) 23:52, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * ] (business travel data base): , ; in addition, all their maps are labelled (] (]) 23:56, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * ] ("Congressional Research Reports for the People"): , (] (]) 00:30, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * ] (academic data base of U.S. and Canadian Ph.D. dissertations), from 2004 to the present: , (] (]) 11:23, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| ::Although the identical numbers might lead one to think they were duplicate lists (with text such as "Kiev, or Kyiv" (or vice versa)), they are not duplicate lists. Most of the 10 titles in each list are unique to that list. It's just coincidence that they are exactly the same length. (] (]) 11:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * ] (uses an odd "intelligent" system of constraining searches so "Kiev" can be constrained for articles occurring within the last year but not within the last 3 years, but "Kyiv" can only be constrained for articles within the last 3 years): (within the last year, both written by Americans), (within the last 3 years, from June 2008, written by a Ukrainian) (] (]) 17:21, 31 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| ::This source is actually a news and opinion source, but it relates completely to academia, so it properly belongs here, I think. (] (]) 17:23, 31 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| ====Major international organisations==== | |||
| *] (un.org website): , . ---] (]) 14:47, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :*'''Comment'''. Why ''international'' organizations? Are we to ignore major organizations of the English-speaking countries in this section?—] • (]); 14:49, October 29, 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::* Erm, because I hadn't thought of it. Now created below! ] (]) 14:52, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* United Nations Multilingual Terminology Database : ] (]) 23:17, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* UN map of Ukraine ] (]) 23:17, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ====Major English-speaking organisations==== | |||
| * ] (enter "Kiev" into the search field , scroll down the list of results to Ukraine): Kiev (given as BGN Conventional), Kyiv (given as BGN Standard), also seven other spellings listed as "variants").—] • (]); 14:49, October 29, 2009 (UTC) | |||
| **Note ]: their "BGN Standard" is intended to be the systematic transliteration, not the common one. ] <small>]</small> 23:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| * ], search of entire website: , (] (]) 15:12, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * ], search of entire website: , (] (]) 15:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| *]: , (] <small>]</small> 23:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| ====Other Relevant History/Geography Media==== | |||
| * ], search of entire website: , (] (]) 15:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * ], search of entire website: , (] (]) 16:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| ====Miscellaneous Relevant Numbers==== | |||
| * ] (I know this isn't exactly the perfect place for this, but it's not completely academic either), from Jan 2004 to present, English books only: , (] (]) 02:59, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * ] (from 2004, only in Business, Economics, Social Sciences, Arts, and Humanities): , (] (]) 04:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| * ] Directory city page - --- ] (]) 00:01, 2 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| * ] Directory province page - --- ] (]) 00:01, 2 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Data Demonstrating Official Governmental Policies=== | |||
| (This section was added later by a supporter to reflect official policy, not common usage. (] (]) 01:28, 2 November 2009 (UTC))) | |||
| Governmental bodies in English-speaking countries. Also those of English-speaking countries acting in Ukraine. | |||
| :* Australian Consulate in Ukraine : ] (]) 23:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* Canadian Consulate in Ukraine : ] (]) 23:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* Embassy of Republic of India in Ukraine : ] (]) 23:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* Honorary Consul of Ireland in Ukraine : ] (]) 23:32, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* New Zealand Honorary Consul in Ukraine : ] (]) 23:54, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* United Kingdom Embassy in Ukraine : ] (]) 23:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Gordon Brown on Genocide in Ukraine : ] (]) 23:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* U.S. Embassy in Ukraine : ] (]) 23:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* ] ] - ] : (]) 23:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :* The State Department of the U.S. and its directive on Kyiv : (]) 23:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Discussion=== | |||
| At this point, the evidence shows: | |||
| :1) The news sources surveyed strongly favor "Kiev", in some cases by an overwhelming majority of instances. "Kyiv" is not always the most recent usage. One Canadian newspaper gives equal weight between "Kiev" and "Kyiv" | |||
| :2) Encyclopedias have not been thoroughly surveyed. The four listed are split between "Kiev" and "Kyiv". | |||
| :3) The academic sources surveyed generally favor "Kiev" with a few split between "Kiev" and "Kyiv". The academic sources tend to have a low number of hits to compare. | |||
| :4) International organizations have not been widely surveyed. The one source favors "Kiev". | |||
| ::4.a) If you are talking about UN - officially they recognise it as Kyiv. Links were added. | |||
| ::4.b) Major English-speaking governments and their embassies were consulted - they all use Kyiv. --- ] (]) 00:10, 2 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :5) The two American scientific organizations favor "Kiev". The other two organizations listed do not really favor either. | |||
| :6) The two American educational channels overwhelmingly favor "Kiev". | |||
| :7) The data from Google Books strongly favor "Kiev". | |||
| So as of Friday morning, 30 October (Mountain Daylight Time), that's where we stand on gathering sources and examining the usage data. (] (]) 12:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| : I have suggested in the past we simply use BGN as the impartial third party. As long as they have an entry in their database ''specifically stating there is a special case'' that "Kiev" is ''standard English usage'', we should observe that. When that changes, we rename the article, plain and simple. Anything else will degenerate into the usual. I've been occupied elsewhere, I see my suggestion for doing Kiev justice to go GA or FA lies completely fallow{{mdash}}if a tenth of the energy were spent on article content that has been wasted on Kiev vs. Kyiv, we'd have something we could all truly point to with pride. ] <small>]]</small> 17:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::The problem with BGN is that it coesn't have a conventional field as often as it really should; for example, it doesn't have one for ]. When it does have one, we should follow it - unless ambiguity makes that impractical. ] <small>]</small> 00:01, 31 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Actually, you're not quite correct, ''Frankfurt am Main'' (BGN Standard) indicates ''Frankfurt'' as the (Short) version, hence no requirement for a conventional common English usage exception. (And Frankfurt is also BGN Standard for the other Frankfurt.) <small style="background:white; border: 1px solid #a12830;"> ] ►] </small> 04:10, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Including Short forms would be a different proposal. I suspect it will still diverge from normal English usage for such places as ], and that it will give multiple answers quite often; but we don't need to decide such things here; try ]. ] <small>]</small> 16:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Reading Misplaced Pages policy (below) and considering the assembled data, the following points point unambiguously toward ''Kiev'' as the common English spelling of Ukraine's capital: | |||
| :* BGN Conventional is "Kiev" indicating common English usage | |||
| :* The major news sources in several English-speaking countries overwhelmingly use "Kiev" over "Kyiv" | |||
| :* Academic sources generally use "Kiev" over "Kyiv" | |||
| :* The web sites for four major American scientific, geographical, and educational organizations use "Kiev" over 90% of the time | |||
| :* Both Google Books and Google Scholar register "Kiev" over "Kyiv" at more than a 3:1 ratio. | |||
| (] (]) 04:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| We already knew that official policy of most countries doing business in Ukraine is to favor "Kyiv" in official documents. That has been documented ''ad infinitem'' before. What is new here is the definitive data demonstrating that common English usage is "Kiev". (] (]) 01:31, 2 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| ===Relevant Misplaced Pages Policy=== | |||
| For those who may not be thoroughly familiar with relevant Misplaced Pages policy in this issue (and who may not like to click on links), these are the relevant points (from ]): | |||
| :: "The title: When a ''widely accepted English name'', in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it." | |||
| :: "When a ''widely accepted English name'', in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be identical in form to the local name (as with ] or ]), but in many cases it will differ (] rather than ''Deutschland'', ] rather than ''Roma'', ] rather than ''Ha'''nn'''over'', ] rather than ''Meißen''). If a native name is more often used in English sources than a corresponding traditional English name, then use the native name. An example is ], which is now known more widely under its native name than under the traditional English name "Leghorn"." | |||
| :: "A name can be considered as widely accepted if a neutral and reliable source states: "X is the name most often used for this entity". Without such an assertion, the following methods (not listed in any particular order) may be helpful in establishing a widely accepted name (''period'' will be the modern era for current names; the relevant historical period for historical names): | |||
| ::#Consult English-language encyclopedias (we recommend ], ], ], each as published after 1993). If the articles in these agree on using a single name in discussing the period, it is the widely accepted English name. | |||
| ::#*One reason for 1993 is to ensure that post-Cold War changes in usage are duly reflected; other (especially later) limiting dates may be appropriate in some parts of the world. | |||
| ::#Consult ] and ] hits (count only articles and books, not number of times the word is used in them) when searched over English language articles and books where the corresponding location is mentioned in relation to the period in question. If the name of the location coincides with the name of another entity, care should be taken to exclude inappropriate pages from the count. If the name is used at least three times as often as any other, in referring to the period, it is widely accepted. | |||
| ::#*'''Always look at search results,''' don't just count them. For more, see the section on search engines ]. | |||
| ::#Consult other standard histories and scientific studies of the area in question. (We recommend the Cambridge Histories; the ] , and the Oxford dictionaries relevant to the period and country involved). If they agree, the name is widely accepted. The possibility that some standard histories will be dated, or written by a non-native speaker of English, should be allowed for. | |||
| ::#Consult major news sources, either individually, or by using ], if accessible. If they agree in using a given name, it is widely accepted." | |||
| :: "The ] determines official Federal nomenclature for the United States. Most often, actual American usage follows it, even in such points as the omission of apostrophes, as in ]. However, if colloquial usage does differ, we should prefer actual American to the official name. Similarly, its normally presents local official usage in the country concerned (for example, ]); in a handful of cases, like ], it has a conventional name field. Its BGN Standard is a systematic transliteration, as ] — Misplaced Pages prefers ]. ''Where it acknowledges a conventional name'', it is evidence of widespread English usage; where it does not, it is not addressing our primary question." | |||
| (] (]) 04:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :: require only ''acceptance'' not the overwhelming ''usage''. | |||
| :: A bit of history: I recall changes like ] did not happen overnight. It took Chinese some 10 years to ''convince'' the West about it. ] went a bit faster as British did not want to bother with their colonial past. | |||
| :: We have already moved all post-Soviet names on Misplaced Pages: ] is now ], ] is now ]... ] just stands as an odd example giving some room to revert the above changes. Why give the others another case to revert the other changes? Using the same logic as we used in those geographical names it should be ] instead of ]. Any other reasons not to? | |||
| :: As time will pass ] will be catching up, now the real question comes as: do we at Misplaced Pages recognise it as the modern spelling, as accepted one, or as the one that it overwhelmingly used over the web (it is difficult to count elsewhere, who is counting? haven't seen anyone so far.) --- ] (]) 00:12, 2 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::Concerning "acceptance" versus "usage", if the occurrence of "Kiev" and "Kyiv" were fairly evenly matched (or even close), then that would be a good argument that neither is common and that "Kyiv" was accepted. In other words, it would lean the argument in the direction of "Kyiv". However, we're not dealing with two spellings that are even ''close''. In some of these sources (where "Kyiv" occurs at all), there is as much as a 150:1 ratio of "Kiev" to "Kyiv" (the Financial Times). There is not a single public source where "Kyiv" dominates over "Kiev". At most, the two spellings are equal in a small number of sources. (] (]) 01:50, 2 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :::There is an error in Londain's statement, however. Not "all post-Soviet names" have been moved on Misplaced Pages. ] is still Odessa, not Ukrainian "Odesa". One of the reasons for this is that the official Odessa city website spells its name in English "Odessa", despite the official position of the government of Ukraine, but the other (stronger) reason is the same as that being used here--common English usage uses "Odessa" overwhelmingly. The majority of English speakers know only four cities in Ukraine (in descending order of knowledge): Kiev, Odessa, Yalta, and Sevastopol (the latter two are only familiar to those who read any history). Yalta and Sevastopol are spelled the same in Ukrainian and Russian. Only Kiev and Odessa are spelled differently. Until English speakers adapt to "Kyiv" (even Odessans don't want to change the spelling of their city), then we must use "Kiev" here. (] (]) 16:25, 2 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| I agree that in time the change to Kyiv will happen, but Misplaced Pages is bound by the present, not the future. We are a descriptive encyclopedia, not a prescriptive one. Neither Kishenev nor Alma-Ata are referred to with any regularity in English sources. Neither are Uzhhorod nor Dnipropetrovsk. They are rarely encountered in English so "common usage" is not relevant to them. Compare this, however, with ], which is not its name in Thai, and ], which is not its name in Italian. And what about ] in the post-Soviet world? Why not "Moskva" (or "Warszawa" instead of ])? Indeed, if we want local names, then Dnepropetrovsk is the way that the inhabitants (who nearly all speak Russian) want their city known, not the Ukrainian ]. In the end, all we have is common English usage. We must not get caught up in ]. That is never a strong argument when it comes to deciding individual issues in Misplaced Pages. We don't tell people how things should be, but simply report how they are. (] (]) 00:42, 2 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :I must give credit where it is due; I strongly applaud Taivo's argumentation above. I love the: "Compare this, however, with ], which is not its name in Thai, and ], which is not its name in Italian. And what about ] in the post-Soviet world? Why not "Moskva" (or "Warszawa" instead of ])?" -part in particular. However I would improve the first sentence: "I agree that in time the change to Kyiv '''might''' happen." ] (]) 20:52, 2 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Relevant Notes=== | |||
| ] has been banned because he/she turned out to be a second account for banned ]. The contributions of such second accounts are often deleted based on the reasoning that a banned user should not be editing under a new name. These secondary contributions are usually not productive. However, in this case, I'm not inclined to personally delete Londain's contributions for two reasons. First, they represent a minority point of view, and second, they are not inflammatory or otherwise uncivil. If you feel otherwise, then feel free to act accordingly. (] (]) 12:55, 2 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom --> | |||
| == Are you for Ukraine as the democratic independent state VS for the Ukraine as a Russia's colonial province == | |||
| One more reason (rather political than linguistic). | |||
| Are you for Ukraine as the democratic independent European state VS for the Ukraine as an Russia's collonial province? | |||
| Do you want to see Ukrainians as citizens with the European mentality VS you want to see Ukrainians as soldiers in the Russian Army? | |||
| Are you for Kyiv VS for Kiev? | |||
| Naming the Kyiv as the Kyiv will support Ukraine on its struggle for democracy, independence and European values. | |||
| Naming the Kyiv as the Kiev will help to return Ukraine into the Russia's colony. | |||
| --] (]) 21:13, 11 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :The only relevant issue in Misplaced Pages is common English usage. It has nothing to do with our feelings about Ukraine. Only common English usage is relevant. (] (]) 07:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :Misplaced Pages is not in the business of being correct. Common English usage is the policy, whether or not it is based upon correct data. It is not a political "diss" at Ukraine or Kyiv/Kiev.] (]) 08:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Any arguments based on "common usage" in a situation where a name has been changed are ''ipso facto'' irrelevant. If the names of other cities are changed at the requests of those governments, this rule should apply across the board and across the world. Any other argument is pretty pointless. Consistency is what should matter, whether in Misplaced Pages or in other media. Is there some rational reason why Ukraine is an exception to the rule? ] (]) 21:59, 13 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :The name hasn't changed--only the language of transliteration has changed (from Russian to Ukrainian). But even in cases where the name has changed, common English usage still prevails, thus ] instead of Myanmar. It's all about policy. Misplaced Pages's policy is to use common English usage. If that policy were different, then Misplaced Pages might use Kyiv instead of Kiev. But as long as Misplaced Pages's policy is to use common English usage, then the data presented above are conclusive--"Kiev" is still the most common spelling of Kyiv. Someday that might change, but for now that is the fact of the matter. Ukraine is no exception either (see ], ], ], ], ], etc. for plenty of other examples where common English usage does not match the local name). Government request doesn't change common English usage. Only the millions of English speakers can change that. And which government are we supposed to listen to? The Ukrainian Rada says that the English spelling of ] is "Odesa", but the city itself spells its name "Odessa" in English. Who's right? The people who live there or the distant government in Kyiv? The people of Dnipropetrovsk want to spell their city's name "Dnepropetrovsk" since nearly all of them speak Russian. But the Rada wants to spell it ]. Who's right? In the end, governmental decrees are meaningless since governments can change overnight. What if Yanukovych gets elected? He could change all the names of eastern Ukraine back to Russian spellings. No, we don't listen to governments here, they are all short-lived. We only respond to common English usage for names that are commonly used. (] (]) 22:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :: ] vs ] and ] vs ] are just two nice examples of how ] is inconsistent in its policies. Most of the names are already in the modern spelling. The official and widely accepted, even if not 100% overwhelmingly used, ] spelling should be used from now on. --- (] (]) 08:45, 16 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| :::If you are arguing for preferred ''local usage'' rather than common English usage (which is the Misplaced Pages standard), then it should be "Dnepropetrovsk" as that is the preferred usage (the "modern spelling") in Dnipropetrovsk itself--it's a Russian-speaking city. So if you want Misplaced Pages to be "consistent" and use the locally-preferred spelling, then ''both'' articles should have different titles. (] (]) 10:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC)) | |||
| All of mentions of russian versions for Ukrainian cities’ names and facts are propaganda and doesn’t carry any relevance or importance. The only effect it has - is the reminder for Ukrainians how much pain and loss we have to experience daily because of the terror from aggressor/terrorist-russia. Please be mindful and understanding for other’s request in this matters, for you it might be nothing - for somebody it’s a reminder of killed children and family members, lost homes and peace. ] (]) 18:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Guys, I wouldn't bother convincing them to change the article to Kyiv. It's already a big step for them not to have a definite article before the name of the country. Given what I see it would not have surprised me to see 'the Ukraine' written all over. --] (]) 20:29, 8 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :We go by sources here. If sources use Russian names, so do we. If sources change (as they did with Kiev to Kyiv) we also change. If history used Russian names we are not going to whitewash history in an article as if it never happened. You'll have to live with that. ] (]) 19:26, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Would the Ukrainian government/Verkhovna Rada and the Office of the President of Ukraine's chosen names be counted as sources? | |||
| ::This doesn't concern Kyiv specifically but rather the hundreds of Russian names which are being swapped out in official communication by the Ukrainian government. ] (]) 15:49, 25 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Materials originating from the Ukrainian government are not relevant to English usage. Nor the Russian government, the Japanese goverment, the Venezuelan government, the Saudi government, etc.--] (]) (]) 17:12, 25 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 17:12, 25 December 2024
 | This is a subpage of Talk:Kyiv for discussing the name of the article Kyiv. Please take all discussion of the name here, reserving the regular talkpage for other matters. I hope that this division will benefit both the regular talkpage and the name discussion itself. Happy editing. Bishonen | talk.
Please note that due to technical reasons any actual move requests need to be made on Talk:Kyiv, but should be moved here after they are listed on WP:RMC. Also, please note that in addition to the formal requested moves listed below, there have also been a considerable number of other proposals, requests for comment, etc. suggesting a change of name from Kiev to Kyiv or vice versa. Proposals can be found in the archives. |
 | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
 | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
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Remove all mention of Russian
All of mentions of russian versions for Ukrainian cities’ names and facts are propaganda and doesn’t carry any relevance or importance. The only effect it has - is the reminder for Ukrainians how much pain and loss we have to experience daily because of the terror from aggressor/terrorist-russia. Please be mindful and understanding for other’s request in this matters, for you it might be nothing - for somebody it’s a reminder of killed children and family members, lost homes and peace. 79.17.161.5 (talk) 18:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- We go by sources here. If sources use Russian names, so do we. If sources change (as they did with Kiev to Kyiv) we also change. If history used Russian names we are not going to whitewash history in an article as if it never happened. You'll have to live with that. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:26, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Would the Ukrainian government/Verkhovna Rada and the Office of the President of Ukraine's chosen names be counted as sources?
- This doesn't concern Kyiv specifically but rather the hundreds of Russian names which are being swapped out in official communication by the Ukrainian government. AuthorOfOne (talk) 15:49, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
- Materials originating from the Ukrainian government are not relevant to English usage. Nor the Russian government, the Japanese goverment, the Venezuelan government, the Saudi government, etc.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:12, 25 December 2024 (UTC)