Template talk:Infobox language: Difference between revisions

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			{{oldtfdfull\|date= 5 January 2025 \|merge=Template:Infobox proto-language \|result=keep \|disc=Template:Infobox language}}
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	{{purge\|purge}}<center><div style="background-color: #f0f0ff; border: none; padding: 5px; width: 220px;">For older discussion, see ''']'''</div></center>
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			== Correction of misleading "family-color" groups ==
	=Discussion=
	__TOC__

			According to a search of the archives this has been brought up more than once over the years. Given that “Altaic” is widely rejected as a valid grouping, there should be separate colors at least for Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic languages. Koreanic and Japonic could get their own colors or use the "isolate" color. ] (]) 14:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
	== Source of Genetic classification ==

			:This has alreaqdy been done at the French Misplaced Pages. <span style="font-weight: bold; background-color: #00c9c2; color: #000000;">] \| ] \| ]</span> 00:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
	It has come to my attention that SIL's classification is not always accepted by some native linguists of some languages. Could it at least be mentioned that the classification is not "definitive" but SIL's or from any other resources?---] 04:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

	== Defining default parameter strings and my major edit ==

	I felt I had to flag up a major edit to the template. I have re-added two proposed sections: 'ISO/DIS 639-3' and 'Pronunciation'. I am not sure if the latter will work, but its worth adding if the main objection has been overcome. My attention was drawn to a new possibility with templates: we can now define a default for a parameter. The syntax is <tt><nowiki>{{{parameter\|default}}}</nowiki></tt>. This allows us to add a new parameter and then define it in each article. In the past, we have had to work the other way round. Thus, the <tt><nowiki>{{{rank}}}</nowiki></tt> parameter now has the default text: ''not in the top 100''. This text has been added by hand into most articles, but does not need to be any more. I hope this is a step in the right direction. --] 14:12, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

	Linking directly to '']'' in the template is probably not a good idea. The main problem is that some languages will have multiple ISO 639-3 codes (each covering a separate dialect of the language). Therefore, the parameter string will be a list of codes, which cannot be plugged into a single URL. --] 15:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

	*we can have params unique-iso3 and multiple-iso3. the unique-iso3 can have the link, the other goes without.
	*for mulitple codes we can use a template, e.g. insert the template three times, asume the codes are aaa,aab,aac: <nowiki>{{iso639_3_link\|aaa}} {{iso639_3_link\|aab}} {{iso639_3_link\|aac}} </nowiki> any problems? ] ] 15:49, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

	I've added <tt><nowiki>{{{pronunciation}}}</nowiki></tt> and <tt><nowiki>{{{iso3}}}</nowiki></tt> to ] as an example (note the ISO 639-3 code differs from SIL14). The first point above — using a different variable for multiple-coded languages so that unique codes can link to Ethnologue — would work. The multiple parameter could default to nothing. However, incorporating mini-templates for each language code in the multiple parameter may be tricky. I came across real problems with this when I last worked on the modular template proposal. The problem was that parameter strings were not carried through every level of the template. However, the new default settings might make the implementation of this easier. Can I try a mock-up of the syntax to see if it will work? --] 16:37, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

	:Based on your edit at ] I've been adding the native pronunciations of languages in the "pronunciation" field (e.g. {{IPA\|ˈgeːlʲgʲə nə ˈheːrʲən}} at ], {{IPA\|kəmˈrɑːɨg}} at ], {{IPA\|ˈkɑːlʲəkʲ nə haˈɫapə}} at ], {{IPA\|ˈɪŋglɪʃ}} at ], {{IPA\|dɔytʃ}} at ], and {{IPA\|fʁɑ̃sɛ}} at ]. I hope this is what this field is intended to convey; if not, let me know and I'll change them to {{IPA\|ˈaɪɹɪʃ, wɛlʃ, ˈskɑtɪʃ ˈgælɪk, ˈɪŋglɪʃ, ˈdʒɝmən}}, and {{IPA\|fɹɛntʃ}}. --]/] 01:20, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

	::Hi. I've removed the <tt><nowiki>{{{pronunciation}}}</nowiki></tt> section because I don't really think it's necessary. First off, some people might have that for the "native name" section. Also, what's the point? --]

	I agree that it may not be needed. However, I have seen a few places where it has been asked how the name of a language should be pronounced. <tt><nowiki>{{{nativename}}}</nowiki></tt> should be the languages own name for itself, in native script if possible. I see that parameter as being very different from <<tt><nowiki>{{{pronunciation}}}</nowiki></tt>. It is significant that ], ] and many others are not pronounced as they are written. This is valid and useful information. I think that we should think of some way to provide IPA help to Misplaced Pages users. --] 16:35, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

	::I still think it takes up too much space. Should we have some sort of vote? --]

	I've been talking to my template guru (]) who has been showing me some of the hidden mysteries of templates. I used {{]}} to include a link to a language's Ethnologue entry if an ISO 639-3 is defined. You'll see that ] has a link, whereas ] doesn't (it hasn't been added yet). Now that I've discovered how to do that, I'm going to have a look at the modularity proposal again. This will make the majority of instances of the template much shorter (i.e. the 'official' bits will be automagically removed when not needed). Can we leave the 'pronunciation' issue dormant for a moment, until the template's full flexibility has been tested? --] 20:53, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

	:can ISO 639-3 talk be kept in the ISO 639 section? ] ] 12:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

	== Collapsable template ==

	I've just made the template collapsable. If <tt><nowiki>{{{nation}}}</nowiki></tt> is left undefined in an article, the 'Ranking', 'Official language of' and 'Regulated by' rows will automatically disappear. Therefore, if a particular language doesn't use these parameters, just leave them out, and the template will automatically simplify itself (see ] for a collapsed version). I've tested this in a few places, and it seems to be working fine. You can see {{]}}, {{]}} and {{]}} as the sub-templates that are now called, or not, by the main template. I'm not sure if I can explain how it works: I hardly understand it myself. I hope the newly collapsable version doesn't caus any problems, and meets with general approval. --] 23:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

	:I noticed on ], that there's this extra space right above the ''Not in top 100'' section. I was wondering if there's any way to remove it. Thanks. --]

	I see that you and Tobias have had a look at the new template design. I should try to write down how it works, because it is complex. The extra space has probably been called by {{]}}. I shall have a look at it, to see what might cause the problem. As you have probably noticed, the <tt><nowiki>{{{iso3}}}</nowiki></tt> parameter can only be a single code entry or nothing at the moment (don't try ''iso3='', as that will create a link to Ethnologue). The next stage is allow a list of ISO 639-3 codes. Until we have found an easy way to do that, it is best not to implement the linking feature to the <tt><nowiki>{{{sil}}}</nowiki></tt> parameter, as most article already define it. If you feel that any occurrence of the template could do without the 'official' section, just remove the <tt><nowiki>{{{nation}}}</nowiki></tt> parameter, and the template will remove the entire section. --] 13:07, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	OK. I've sorted the problem of the extra space. In the <tt><nowiki>{{{family}}}</nowiki></tt> parameter, the last line gives the name of the language in bold. This should not have a <tt><br></tt> tag at the end, as this creates unneeded white space at the bottom of the cell. I think the old version of the template was ableto ignore this mistake, but the new one isn't able to ignore it. If yoy see white space, delete the last <tt><br></tt> tag. --] 13:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	:I highly appreciate the work you're doing, Gareth! I have a question. I don't think we should tie the 'Ranking' thing to the national or official status of a language. There are languages which have enough speakers to enter into some ranking and yet are not official languages (the Northern Berber languages of Morocco would be an example, I suppose). On the other hand, there are also languages that do not have that many speakers but still are the national or official language of one or another country; ], for example. Why not make the 'ranking' parameter fully optional? — ] ] 14:28, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	I had thought of that, and it would be possible to have the ''ranking'' element appear/disappear depending on whether its parameter is defined or not. I linked it with the ''official'' module because the two generally run together, but, as you have pointed out, this rule has very many exceptions. I think this is a good case to separate the two. I'll have a go at it. --] 14:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	OK. That wasn't too difficult. If the <tt><nowiki>{{{rank}}}</nowiki></tt> parameter is not defined in the article, that line disappears. This happens independently of whether the official section is used or not. --] 15:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	==Collective language codes==
	Some languages which lack ISO 639-2 codes of their own have instead a general code like aus (Australian languages) or afa (other Afro-asiatic), following Ethnologue 14. But is this appropriate? --] 18:23, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	What would the answer to your question help? Do you want to convince ISO to change their codes? IMO Misplaced Pages should take this as given. Furthermore the ISO 639-3 codes change the situation for lots of languages ] ] 13:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	== Family array ==

	The latest addition is what I call the 'family array'. It is an easier way to enter information into he 'Genetic classification' box. The traditional method of entering text into the <tt><nowiki>{{{family}}}</nowiki></tt> parameter still works. Therfore, if there is anything that doesn't fit the new system, you can still use the old one. The problem with this old system was that you had to type the formatting (<tt><br>&nbsp;</tt>) into the parameter on the article page. I've now added that formatting into the template, so that you do not need to add on the article page. In the new system, the <tt><nowiki>{{{family}}}</nowiki></tt> parameter is not used. Instead, you add the following to the template call in the article:
	\|fam1=top level language family
	\|fam2=next level down
	\|fam3=next level down again
	I've set up the template to accept parameters up to and including <tt><nowiki>{{{fam10}}}</nowiki></tt>. More levels can be added if needed. In this system, the last <tt>\|famn=</tt> is the most immeadiate language group to which a langauge belongs: you do not write the name of the language itself in these parameters, that is added automatically. If you want any of the parameters to link to an article about a language family, you simply type:
	\|fam8=<nowiki>]</nowiki>
	I'm working on using a similar system to allow us to incorporate lists of language codes. --] 12:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	You can see the new system in action in ] <span class="plainlinks">(] · · )</span> and ] <span class="plainlinks">(] · · )</span>. --] 12:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
	:can the leading space(line) be removed? ] ] 13:45, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
	I don't see anything, which article are you looking at? --] 13:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	==Dialects==
	Can dialects be included to use the template? Some also have 639-3 code because in ethnologue they are regarded as language. ] ] 13:45, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	:I've just shelved <tt><nowiki>{{{iso3list}}}</nowiki></tt> and replaced with an array of parameters that allow you to enter a list of languages/dialects with their ISO 639-3 codes. If you want to use more than one ISO 639-3 code, leave out <tt><nowiki>{{{iso3}}}</nowiki></tt> (which is used for entering a single code), and use the format below:
	\|lc1=aaa\|ld1=Ghotuo\|ll1=Ghotuo language
	\|lc2=bbb\|ld2=Barai\|ll2=Barai language
	\|lc3=ccc\|ld3=Chamicuro\|ll3=Chamicuro language
	\|lc4=ddd\|ld4=Dongotono\|ll4=Dongotono language
	\|lc5=eee\|ld5=E\|ll5=E (linguistics)
	\|lc6=ggg\|ld6=Gurgula\|ll6=Gurgula language
	In this format, ''lc'' stands for 'language code' (the ISO 639-3 of that language/dialect), ''ld'' stands for 'language dialect' (the name of the language/dialect to appear in the infobox) and ''ll'' stands for 'language link' (Misplaced Pages's link to an artcle on the language/dialect). The ''lc'' will automatically link to the Ethnologue page. The ''ll'' parameter does not have to be defined if the link is the same as the contents of ''ld''. Each language/dialect is automatically linked, on the basis that we want an article about each of them. However, I'm not sure if this is wise, and I'll put in a workaround for unlinked languages/dialects if needed. I hope you like it! --] 14:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	For example purposes, ] is using the list of ISO 639-3 codes now. As you can see, continuing to include all the SIL14 codes makes a little cumbersome.

	:I would ditch the SIL14 codes altogether. It is not Misplaced Pages's job to provide a mapping from SIL14 onto SIL15/ISO3. Besides, Ethnologue itself does it already and in doing so quite explicitly notes that the old coding system has been superseded (see ) — ] ] 17:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
	:To complicate matters: I have seen quite a few articles where the SIL14 code in the template has been updated to the SIL15/iso3 code. What to do with these? — ] ] 17:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	I'm all for ditching the SIL14 codes. The spot for the ISO 639-3 codes is now obvious, so I hope people will start filling it in. I see this as a transitional period: we add ISO 639-3 codes for a little while, and then remove SIL14 from the template (we don't have to remove the codes from the articles). The information is still there, and we can carry on adding ISO 639-3 codes until it is done (is it ever done?). --] 18:11, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

	I would not oppose if they where ditched today. Garzo good work! I inserted code-tag to make the codes all same lenght and thus align better. mdash is quiet long isn't it? maybe use "-"? Another prob: if this is a language template, how can there be links to multiple WP-language-articles in the code section? Either the template is used for a language-collection (Syriac) or Syriac is a language and then the sub-"languages" are dialects. ] ] 10:51, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

	:Thanks, Tobias! We could ditch SIL14 codes right away: I don't think anyone would miss them, and it would be an encouragement to get the ISO 639-3 codes in the infobox. I originally had just a space between the code and the name of the dialect in the code list, and I added the m-dash to spread it all out a little more. I agree that with a very long name the line could get too long. I really just wanted to avoid squashing the name up against the external link symbol. On the last point, I think the ] infobox is a case in point. The WP precedence is that we do not make sharp distinctions between language and dialect, or between different level of (sub-)families and (sub-)groups. Where there are multiple ISO 639-3 codes, a language may have several dialects, which may be considered languages in their own right. --] 12:15, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

	== Sign languages, conlangs and extinct languages ==

	I've added in some more flexibility to the template today, so here's the 'heads-up'. As mentioned above, the template is now suitable for sign languages. You use <tt><nowiki>{{{signers}}}</nowiki></tt> instead of <tt><nowiki>{{{speakers}}}</nowiki></tt>, and the template automatically sets itself up for a signed language. It also sets the coloured bar to silver.

	You might not be into ], but the template can be used for them also. Two new parameters are used for conlangs: <tt><nowiki>{{{creator}}}</nowiki></tt> and <tt><nowiki>{{{setting}}}</nowiki></tt>. The former replaces <tt><nowiki>{{{states}}}</nowiki></tt>, and is used for naming the creator and date of creation of the conlang (it also automatically makes the coloured bar black with white text). The other new parameter replaces <tt><nowiki>{{{region}}}</nowiki></tt>. It is purposefully vague, and can contain geographical inforamtion, original intention for creating the language or its use in literature.

	The new parameter <tt><nowiki>{{{extinct}}}</nowiki></tt> can be used instead of <tt><nowiki>{{{speakers}}}</nowiki></tt> to replace that field in the infobox with information about language extinction. This would usually be the approximate year of extinction, but could contain other information. This allows the template to be used appropriately for long-extinct languages.

	I hope you like these new possibilities. I've included information on all parameters at the top of this page. You can see an example of each of these new types of template in the following three articles: ], ] and ]. --] 22:43, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

	== What happened to #dddddd?? ==

	It seems that the infobox for all the ]s (that use the color #dddddd) got all messed up. What happened? See example . --] 01:12, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

	:I've changed the colour coding for isolate to lightgrey. For some reason the template has difficulty coping with #, and I didn't think of testing it with isolates. I'll have a look at the template, and see if I can see what was causing the glitch. Otherwise, I think this is a reasonable replacement. --] 01:34, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

	::Not really. ''lightgrey'' and ''silver'' almost identical. Is there a better color we can use? --] 01:41, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::You could use ''gray'' (that's quite distinct), or look at ]. The # does something very odd to the syntax: something that I didn't expect. --] 02:22, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

	::::Thanks. I looked at ]. It turns out that ''gainsboro'' is apparently identical (or very, very close) to ''#dddddd'', so I'm going to switch to that from ''lightgrey''. --] 03:14, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

	:::::The ''#'' sign at the beginning of the parameter definition is treated as the wiki mark-up for an item in an ordered list. The simplest workaround is to use <tt><nowiki>...</nowiki></tt> tags around the hexidecimal code. However, using colour names rather codes might be the easiest all-round solution. --] 21:58, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

	== Could we get a seal added? ==
	The <nowiki>{{Ido language}}</nowiki> has a section for a seal or symbol of a language that we've been using and the new template doesn't have that which made the ] page look a bit worse, and I reverted it. I would try putting it in myself but this big template scares me and I don't want to mess around with it. ] 03:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

	:I think I remember ] wanting an option for placing a language map at the top of the infobox. I'll put in a sub-template that can add this in. I'll keep it flexible, so it can be used for various purposes. --] 11:23, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
	:OK. I've just updated ] with the new sub-template. If you want to look at the innards, they're at {{tl\|language/image}}, and are called into play by {{tl\|if defined call2}} in the main template. The practical side of things are the parameters: <tt><nowiki>{{{caption}}}</nowiki></tt> places text in the left-hand column (e.g. 'Seal' or 'Language map'), and <tt><nowiki>{{{image}}}</nowiki></tt> defines the image using normal image mark-up (the template doesn't do anything fancy for you). These two parameters could be used to add anything as a new top line to the template, so it's very flexible. --] 11:58, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

	::Yeah, long time ago, I had a map incorporated into the infobox at ], but I separated it at the first redesign of the language template (check out ] for another example). Mustafaa, I believe, has kept using the old template, with incorporated map, on some articles. And indeed, the best use for such a feature, if it is introduced now, would be for maps. I would prefer the bottom of the infobox for that, however. — ] ] 12:00, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

	::I just tested this at {{tl\|Nafaanra}} (see ) but I don't think it's going to work; the place is too small for a map. It would be better if the map were at the bottom, if it could span the two columns and if it could have a caption like normal thumb'ed images have. But even then, I'm not sure; sometimes maps need to be broader, or sometimes they're ridiculously long (what about ]?). Maybe we should just keep it distinct from the template. — ] ] 12:09, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

	:There will always have to be some limits of size so that the infobox doesn't get overburdened. I've implemented <tt><nowiki>{{{map}}}</nowiki></tt>, which does exactly what you asked for. You can see an example at {{tl\|Nafaanra}}. By the way, are you going to subst this into the article now? --] 12:56, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

	Thank you! And yes. Back then I had the feeling that Google didn't index the first paragraph of articles properly when it started with the language table gibberish, but in retrospect I don't think that was the reason. It's still a mystery to me how Google chooses the description it shows in the search results though. — ] ] 13:23, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

	== Where next for this template? ==

	I hope you're all enjoying the changes I've made to the template over the last few days. They were all mostly things that we had been wishing for for a while. I think there are three issues that we'll want to deal with in the near future:
	#Pronunciation: Do we want to have the pronunciation of the name of the language in the template? I feel a bit ambivalent about this one.
	#Writing system: There wasn't much discussion, but this has been mentioned before. I feel that if we want to add writing system to the infobox it should not be an opt-out thing: you can have too much flexibility.
	#Dropping SIL14: I think this is more of an issue of when do we do it, rather than if. If the row is removed from the master template, the parameters in the articles just remain as dummy calls.
	Looking at this template's equivalents in other-language Wikipedias, they mostly follow the pattern here. However, there are a few different styles we might be interested in.
	*The ] and ] divide up the ] code field to allow for the seperate bibliographic and typographic codes at that level. We could write a subroutine to allow such a setup if required. Therefore, unlike these templates, one had to opt into the split field.
	*The ] explicitly allows for first- and second-language speakers on seperate rows in the 'speakers' field. I think I would prefer the flexibility we have at present, rather than forcing this layout.
	*The ] and ] templates incorporate those little template links to Misplaced Pages version in that language and Unicode information. At present, these things just tend to float around with the template.
	*The ], as well as having a little section for links and notes at the bottom (and possibly being the most aesthetically pleasing) has space for the writing system to be added.
	There are some interesting things to look at there. Do you think we should develop the possibility of using the template with reconstructed proto-languages? Also, we might want to think about how we organise the colours for creoles and pidgins. --] 02:26, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
	:*i would like colors depending on fam1 (no need to have color in mind and have future color flexibility).
	:*Don't care about B/T codes.
	:*add writing system(S!)
	:*drop SIL now
	:*allow pronounciation file.
	:] ] 07:28, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

	:*What about {{tl\|IPA notice}}? I think it would make sense to incorporate it into {{tl\|language}}, as we intend every language article to use IPA transcription eventually.
	:*I agree with Tobias: drop SIL 14 now.
	:*I don't know how easy or difficult it is to automagically pick the famcolor depending on fam1, but if it is possible it would be a really good idea. It would be an immense help for maintaining the colors and for keeping them consistent throughout Misplaced Pages.
	:— ] ] 10:25, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

	Thanks for the feedback, guys. You both mentioned dropping SIL14, so I think I'll just be bold and do it. By the way, the change of link address really help: I think it was ] where there was an ISO 639-3 code that Ethnologue just wasn't interested in. The automation of colours is something that had crossed my mind. I saw that someone decided that tomato/pink colours should be swapped (for some strange reason), and it's a lot of work to do a colour change manually. As <tt><nowiki>{{{fam1}}}</nowiki></tt> is currently set up to be a wikilink to the top-level language family. If this parameter, or, perhaps easier, a newly defined parameter were used to define the family colour, the in-article definition would have to be spot-on: one would have to write ''Afro-Asiatic'', and not ''Afroasiatic'', ''Afro-asiatic'', ''Afro-Asiatic languages'' or any other variant spelling. I think that remembering this is as easy as remembering ''yellow''. Using the parameter in this way would also force the article to display the parameter's information exactly, abandoning the flexibility we have at the moment. I would like to see a proposal of how this might work. Incorporating the {{tl\|IPA notice}} shouldn't be too difficult. It'd probably have to change shape to match the infobox, and it might replace the rather vague language links at the bottom. I'll have a try at providing a split row for ISO 639-2 B/T codes: it'll have to be optional anyway. Providing a row for a writing system shouldn't be a problem, but sign languages will probably want to opt out automatically. The pronunciation row can be un-commented whenever we feel ready for it (opt out for sign languages again), but we could do with a decent explanation about what we expect from it in the usage section above. --] 17:55, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
	:for me it's easier to remember the writing "Afro-Asiatic" etc. (capital, hyphen) than the colors. Isn't is good to force people in one writing (for fam1). I would also like to have "Afro-Asiatic" instead of Afro-Asiatic languages. It could be expanded automaticly? (Same structure for all fam1?) But maybe this is asked too much. Can we get rid of the language name in the classification? Isn't it clear that at the end the language itself follows? ] ] 19:00, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

	I've added a few little tweaks here and there. SIL14 has gone, and you can now define the B/T codes for ISO 639-2 in seperate fields (side by side). The {{tl\|IPA notice}} has now been placed as a footerin the template. However, there are two possible variations: one is to replace this with {{tl\|IndicText}}, the other is to replace it with a sign language footer (I felt IPA may not be relevent). The IPA notice is the default, but sign language defalts automatically change this to their own footer. The Indic one has to be specified with <tt>\|notice=Indic</tt>. Although Indic text articles are also likely to use IPA, Indic text often presents more difficult display problems. Let me know if there are other modules needed: we might want a 'no notice' possibility. I'm not sure I like the colour of the notices: I simply transferred the colour of the existing notices across. I'm working on introducing a new parameter, <tt><nowiki>{{{fam}}}</nowiki></tt>, which would automatically define <tt><nowiki>{{{fam1}}}</nowiki></tt> and <tt><nowiki>{{{familycolor}}}</nowiki></tt>. It would be difficult to use an existing parameter, because it has to be very strictly defined. I'm having a bit of difficulty working out which way round the defaults should go at the moment. --] 13:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

	:tried to delete the IPA color. I prefer pure white or whatever the bgcolor in the page is. suggest: use familycolor, allow for colors and groups. if familycolor=limegreen (show limegreen) if familycolor=afroasiatic (show colorname). for each groupcolor and each groupname an include has to be designed that give the color value. SEWilco used such a technique. ] ] 16:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

	Tried? You've done it: you might just need the browser/page to refresh. I'm a bit sceptical about using the same parameter. Which template did ] use this technique on? --] 16:51, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

	*I'm in favour of having pronuncation of the native name. For me it's important to be able to say the native name correctly. I can't do that if it's only in a script I don't know (eg ]) or even in Latin but with a language-specific use of the alphabet (eg ]). Also it helps to assert the primacy of speech over writing, and can be used when there is no writing system.
	*A standard system of recording number of first and ''additional'' language speakers would be good. I suspect that the figure for most languages is the first language speakers rather than really the ''total''.
	*A standard option of removing ''may'' from the IPA notice would be nice - it sounds odd on a page where you know very well that it is in use. ] 22:40, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

	Also a comment about the rank - the list which is linked to above doesn't actually have any numeric ranking. That's going to make it frustrating to get the ranking for a language which is not right near the top. ] points to a totally different list. (It also has a different usage for "region".) When the edits settle down, a bit more help /guidance /consistency for us mere mortals could be useful. :-) ] 23:14, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

	:I really don't know about ranking. My main interest was making that part of the infobox optional. The ] article interestingly uses rank to mention that it is the third most-spoken first language in Africa. The states/region thing has been unclear for a while. I beieve that the original idea was to make the first field purely for sovereign states, and to have the second field specify where within that state the language is spoken. However, with widespread languages, it is often more convenient to make the second field describe the larger geographical area, with the first simply listing the countries covered. I think your idea about numbers of speakers is good. I think we should go for a two-way split, first/additional language. This could be programmed into the template as an option, while still allowng the more vague single field to be used. I also think that the general wording needs to be tightened up. Good calls all. --] 23:46, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

	== space ==

	It looks like every article that has uses a space in-between the template code and the 1st paragraph gives the article an extra white space at the top of it, such as in ]. Is there any way to get rid of it? --] 20:46, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
	:It is not a problem with the template. The problem is with the way the template was implemented in that article. I've corrected and updated the page. --] 21:02, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
	::But then that means that you have to have the template code and the 1st paragraph right next to eachother without a space between them. that's not how it used to be. --] 22:22, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

	== Familycolor ==

	SEWilco used "array" technique in Flag template(s). Something about template array is written at ] maybe he knows more. I think we need two templates for each group, one that is called by color the other by groupname. But both containing a color. I think we cannot do
	if param1=darkgreen then darkgreen
	elsif param1=germanic then darkgreen
	elsif param1=lightgreen then lightgreen
	elsif param1=roman then lightgreen
	] ] 17:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
	{{language/quilt\|right}}
	:I see what you mean. I set up a similar array a while back for {{tl\|hiero}}. The array is in place now, but I haven't switched it on yet. The old problem of <tt>#dddddd</tt> has come back. Now we have to remove the nowikis, or, better still, replace it with ''Isolate''. I'll switch it on, and they'll all go white until fixed by hand. The table shows how the array works. --] 23:27, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

	:The arrays are now in the main template, and all seem to be functioning properly. The only glitch is the expected problem of language isolates appearing white. You can now set <tt><nowiki>{{{familycolor}}}</nowiki></tt> to any of the ''names'' in this table, rather than to a colour. --] 00:21, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
	::cool! This really helps (at least me, if I add the template to new languages). can we insert the color-overview somewhere more easily to reach? The Language family article starts prominently with a map but the legend is unreadable. Can we use the color templates in the lang-article? ] ] 10:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
	:I've compacted the array into a single template: {{tl\|language/familycolor}}. Any changes there take effect across the project. You can call the array from outside of {{tl\|language}}. If you want to call the colour for a Papuan language, the syntax is <tt><nowiki>{{language/arraysort\|familycolor\|Papuan}}</nowiki></tt>, which returns <tt>{{language/arraysort\|familycolor\|Papuan}}</tt>. I chose the long syntax because it means we can use the very handy {{tl\|language/arraysort}} to set up other arrays. I hope this is sufficient information about how this works. Ask if I haven't explained any of it right. --] 16:04, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

	== broken ==

	] - I only filled in few variables. e.g. no speakers. The tmp is broken right now. ] ] 10:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

	:The sign-language version of the infobox relies on <tt><nowiki>{{{signers}}}</nowiki></tt>, and if that's defined, you don't have to set <tt><nowiki>{{{familycolor}}}</nowiki></tt>. The problem is that the footer notice for sign languages is currently residing at {{tl\|language/Sign}}. I'm just going to move this now to stop this glitch happening: I just didn't think anyone would find it overnight! --] 11:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

	== Other issues ==

	This template has really improved in the past few days, but I was wondering what we should do about the color of ]s. Unclassified language articles using an infobox are ], ], ], and ]. Jalaa & Laal formerly used #dddddd, which is incorrect because #dddddd is for ]s. My suggestion is that we use the color white. What does everyone else think?

	Another issue is about the ]. All those articles currently use #dddddd, but none of the languages are isolates. We need to find a different color for those languages. --] 22:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

	:Using white for unclassified languages is OK, I think. — ] ] 08:04, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

	::White is the default colour. If the value of {{{familycolor}}} is anything not listed in the array, it should come out white. Local settings might override this, so it can be forced by either not defining {{{familycolor}}} at all, or by setting it to 'Default' (which does the same thing). I've expanded the list in {{tl\|language/familycolor}} a little, to allow for various spelling variations (e.g. 'Na-Dene' and 'Na-Dené' can both be used). I think it's good to remember that the colour coding we are using is often more stylistic than scientific. Some colours represent fairly well established genetic language families, albeit with ragged edges. Other colours simply represent areal classification, where no genetic relationship can be proved. Still others represent languages by type (sign and constructed languages). The #dddddd category has often been used as a catch-all. Should we place a language in that category if there is a reasonable hypothesis that it is not an isolate (Japanese and Korean)? Are isolates unclassified languages, or have they been classified as classless? The latter is the scientific approach, but, in practice, many language isolates are still open cases. There was the initial idea not to use too many colours. Thus, a huge, diverse language family uses the same colour throughout. I think we should be very careful about introducing new colours into the scheme. However, this does raise the question of what we do with very small language families, like the ]. In other cases, a non-genetic classification is used (e.g. the light blue of American languages), so we could cautiously introduce a colour for ]. Further problems arise when we try to choose a colour for a ] or ]. Well, there are lots of issues. It might be better to take these over to ]. --] 11:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
	:::yes. colors to the project. Maybe a subpage there, so I can only watchlist the colorpage. ] ] 16:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

	== language families, "spoken in" and "region" ==

	First I want to say a big THANKYOU to garzo for all the work improving the language templates. Second, I want to propose a small change: the default parameter for the "family" with sign languages is currently fam1="sign language". I would rather the default was family="unknown" and fam1 set to nothing. Most contributors to this page will be aware that sign languages emerge naturally in communities with deaf people, and are not all related to each other; however the notion that sign language was invented by someone and spread around the world is a persistent myth. Even the 'family color' classification scheme is, for the most part, about 'genetic' groupings of spoken languages, whereas for sign languges the "family color" actually refers to the primary ''mode'' of the language (signed) rather than whether they are language isolates, or belong to a group of related languages, etc — although I am not proposing changing the color scheme, just the default parameter.

	Thirdly, I'm still not convinved we need a seperate category for "spoken in" and "region". Look at ], for example. What is the "region" setting but a duplication of the information already in the "spoken in" category? Similarly for ]. At the other end of the spread of languages, have a look at ], for example, which is "spoken in" Canada and the US, and the "region" is "in Canada, blah blah region and in the US, blah blah region". Again, I can't help but feel that one of these categories is redundant (in this case, the former). Can't we just merge these two potentially confusing categories?

	] 02:41, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

	:Thank you. I'll alter that default right away. I would propose that the solution to this problem with 'states'/'region' would be to make 'region' optional in the same way that 'rank' was made optional. Thus, if a language's infobox doesn't want it, it doesn't have to have it. On the other hand, the more options there are, and the more flexible the template becomes, the less it looks like a unified style across the project. --] 11:15, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

	I think it is advisable to keep providing more specific information on the location and distribution of the language; it's not enough, I think, to just mention in which state(s) it is spoken. Therefore, I think merging the two is more sensible than just making region optional, even though it will require more work in adjusting individual articles. We could have a transitional period in which 'region' is optional while the details instead are being added to 'states'. — ] ] 10:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

	I've introduced a new sub-template at {{tl\|language/statesregion}}. This is how it all works:
	#If {{{states}}} is defined, then the first row displays 'Spoken in: {{{states}}}'.
	#If {{{states}}} is not defined, then the first row displays 'Spoken in: {{{region}}}'.
	#If neither {{{states}}} nor {{{region}}} are defined, then the first row displays 'Spoken in: —'.
	#If only one or other of {{{states}}} and {{{region}}} is defined (XOR), then the old 'region' row is skipped.
	#If neither or both of {{{states}}} and {{{region}}} are defined, then the second row displays 'Region: {{{region}}}'.
	For sign languages, the same process occurs, but 'Spoken' is changed to 'Signed'. For conlangs, the two rows are always displayed with 'Created by: {{{creator}}}' and 'Setting and usage: {{{setting}}}' instead. I've run some simple tests, and it appears to work well. Let me know if there are any glitches. --] 16:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

	== Boolean Templates ==
	Have made some boolean templates that you can use if you feel to (might render the code easier), see ] for syntax --] <sup>]</sup> 12:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
	:Thank you for letting us know about these. Although in some places they might reduce he syntax, in others they would increase it, as these return a generic true/false response, whereas the if-routines in the template are prepared to return specific responses. --] 13:11, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
	:I particularly like the way that {{tl\|booleq}} works: very clever! I can see a couple of uses for this and {{tl\|boolor}}. This is timely, as I was just about to rewrite the {tl\|language/official}} call routine (I had made quite a mess of it, and much of it is redundant), the boolor routine would fit beautifully into the new call routine. --] 13:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
	::I made them to simplify creation of logical templates, I understand that it can be hard to rewrite a big template like this, but they are ment to be in aid of the creator (It might reduce the esoteric look on the template). the {{tl\|booleq}} isn't exactly a boolean operator, but it returns a boolean so I call it a boolean operator :). I came up with the idea, when I thought "can I retrive a parameter based of the value of another parameter", and it did work. --] <sup>]</sup> 13:57, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

	Have made a minor change in template if, all current use is ok, but you can use the optional parameters '''expr''','''then''' and '''else''' instead. this might make it look better --] <sup>]</sup> 18:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

	Also if you would like to know, there is a template {{tl\|switch}} now also to be used --] <sup>]</sup> 04:46, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

	== Using Switch ==

	By using switch in some sub templates, you'll remove a lot of ifs, and the code seems more nice. Also, this is only '''1''' sub-template-call :) –] <sup>]</sup> 17:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
	:{{tl\|Switch}} seems to be having some difficulty with the day of the week on its ]. I do like the design, but I'm not yet convinced how well it handles. --] 14:03, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
	::*It's not a problem of {{tl\|Switch}}, it me that missunderstood how {{tl\|CURRENTDOW}} work, I thought sunday was number 7, but it's number 0; <sub>→<font style="color:#975612">]</font><font style="color:#325596">]</font></sub> 14:55, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
	:::Ah, I see. Well, I think we should trial switch with these arrays. I'll start implementing it. --] 18:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

	=== language/familycolor ===
	<pre>
	{{switch
	\|{{{1\|}}}
	\|case: Afro-Asiatic=yellow
	\|case: Afro-asiatic=yellow
	\|case: yellow=yellow
	\|case: Niger-Congo=orange
	\|case: orange=orange
	\|case: Nilo-Saharan=gold
	\|case: gold=gold
	\|case: Khoisan=goldenrod
	\|case: goldenrod=goldenrod
	\|case: Indo-European=lawngreen
	\|case: lawngreen=lawngreen
	\|case: Caucasian=lightgreen
	\|case: lightgreen=lightgreen
	\|case: Altaic=yellowgreen
	\|case: yellowgreen=yellowgreen
	\|case: Uralic=limegreen
	\|case: limegreen=limegreen
	\|case: Dravidian=mediumspringgreen
	\|case: mediumspringgreen=mediumspringgreen
	\|case: Austronesian=tomato
	\|case: tomato=tomato
	\|case: Austro-Asiatic=lightcoral
	\|case: Austro-asiatic=lightcoral
	\|case: Austroasiatic=lightcoral
	\|case: lightcoral=lightcoral
	\|case: Sino-Tibetan=pink
	\|case: pink=pink
	\|case: Australian=orchid
	\|case: orchid=orchid
	\|case: Papuan=violet
	\|case: violet=violet
	\|case: Tai-Kadai=lavender
	\|case: lavender=lavender
	\|case: American=lightblue
	\|case: lightblue=lightblue
	\|case: Na-Dene=deepskyblue
	\|case: Na-Dené=deepskyblue
	\|case: deepskyblue=deepskyblue
	\|case: Eskimo-Aleut=lightcyan
	\|case: lightcyan=lightcyan
	\|case: Isolate=<nowiki>#dddddd</nowiki>
	\|case: isolate=<nowiki>#dddddd</nowiki>
	\|case: language isolate=<nowiki>#dddddd</nowiki>
	\|case: #dddddd=<nowiki>#dddddd</nowiki>
	\|case: Sign=silver
	\|case: sign=silver
	\|case: sign language=silver
	\|case: silver=silver
	\|case: Conlang=black
	\|case: conlang=black
	\|case: constructed language=black
	\|case: black=black
	\|case: Default=white
	\|case: white=white
	\|default=white
	}}
	</pre>

	=== language/genetic ===
	<pre>
	{{switch
	\|{{{1\|}}}
	\|case: Afro-Asiatic=]
	\|case: Afro-asiatic=]
	\|case: yellow=]
	\|case: Niger-Congo=]
	\|case: orange=]
	\|case: Nilo-Saharan=]
	\|case: gold=]
	\|case: Khoisan=]
	\|case: goldenrod=]
	\|case: Indo-European=]
	\|case: lawngreen=]
	\|case: Caucasian=]
	\|case: lightgreen=]
	\|case: Altaic=]
	\|case: yellowgreen=]
	\|case: Uralic=]
	\|case: limegreen=]
	\|case: Dravidian=]
	\|case: mediumspringgreen=]
	\|case: Austronesian=]
	\|case: tomato=]
	\|case: Austro-Asiatic=]
	\|case: Austro-asiatic=]
	\|case: Austroasiatic=]
	\|case: lightcoral=]
	\|case: Sino-Tibetan=]
	\|case: pink=]
	\|case: Australian=]
	\|case: orchid=]
	\|case: Papuan=]
	\|case: violet=]
	\|case: Tai-Kadai=]
	\|case: lavender=]
	\|case: American=]
	\|case: lightblue=]
	\|case: Na-Dene=]
	\|case: Na-Dené=]
	\|case: deepskyblue=]
	\|case: Eskimo-Aleut=]
	\|case: lightcyan=]
	\|case: Isolate=]
	\|case: isolate=]
	\|case: language isolate=]
	\|case: #dddddd=]
	\|case: Sign=]
	\|case: sign=]
	\|case: sign language=]
	\|case: silver=]
	\|case: Conlang=]
	\|case: conlang=]
	\|case: constructed language=]
	\|case: black=]
	\|case: Default=—
	\|case: white—
	\|default=—
	}}
	</pre>

			== Template-protected edit request on 5 May 2024 ==
	== Formatting language codes with <code> ==

			{{edit template-protected\|Template:Infobox language/linguistlist\|answered=yes}}
	I see no reason to put the iso codes in an HTML code element. These are not computer language code samples (which the code element is intended for), and their position in a table makes the usual monospace font formatting an unnecessary distraction. Any objections to removing the <code> tags?''—] ] <small>2005-11-26 19:12 Z</small>''
			Please replace <code><nowiki>]</nowiki></code> with <code><nowiki>]</nowiki></code> per ]. (Note this is an edit request for {{t\|Infobox language/linguistlist}}, not {{t\|infobox language}}.) Thanks! <b>]]</b> (] · he/him) 15:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
			:{{done}}<!-- Template:ETp --> – ] (]) 20:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

			== Template-protected edit request on 26 June 2024 ==
	:The addition of the <code> tags was a fairly recent thing. The tags are containing code after all, so there is something that sounds appropriate about them. I think the issue is more to do with the aesthetic. I actually liked the change to a monospace font for the codes; I feel it sets them apart as codes. --] 21:20, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

			{{edit template-protected\|Template:Infobox language\|answered=yes}}
	:: Well, the code element "designates a fragment of computer code" , which doesn't really describe ISO language codes. For the visual style, it might be more appropriate to add the attribute <code>style="font-family:monospace;"</code> to the respective table cells, or to surround each language code with <code><nowiki><abbr style="font-style:normal; font-family:monospace;">...</abbr></nowiki></code>, since the codes serve as standardized abbreviations representing the languages.
			Can someone please replace {{code\|http://}} with {{code\|https://}} on line 3, per ], because the '] (ELP)' website now supports 'https'? (Note this is an edit request for {{mfl\|Endangered Languages Project}}, not {{t\|infobox language}}.) ] (]) 12:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
			:{{done}}<!-- Template:ETp --> ] (]) 13:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

			== Template-protected edit request on 30 June 2024 ==
	:: That said, this is all a bit nitpicky, and I won't argue any further if you'd really rather leave them in code elements. ''—] ] <small>2005-11-26 22:58 Z</small>''

			{{edit template-protected\|Template:Infobox language\|answered=yes}}
	:::I don't think <abbr> tags are allowed in wikitext. Would <span> be OK? --] 18:38, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
			Can someone please replace
	::::use of tt is widespread for these kind of things in WP ] ] 23:09, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
			<pre>\| data42 = {{#if:{{{lingua\|}}}\|<code>{{{lingua}}}</code>{{{lingua_ref\|}}}}}</pre>

			with:
	::::: <tt> is fine. Span would be okay too in text, but in a table you may as well put the style attribute onto the table cell which is already there. ''—] ] <small>2005-11-29 00:58 Z</small>''
			<pre>\| data42 = {{Infobox language/lingualist\|1={{{lingua\|}}}\|2={{{linguaname\|}}}}}</pre>

			and add two parameters {{param\|lingua2-10}} and {{param\|linguaname(1)-10}}, the template that I just created this afternoon, {{tl\|Infobox language/lingualist}} for the parameter regarding the ] codes, because it contains a link to the website http://www.hortensj-garden.org/index.php?tnc=1&tr=lsr&nid= and therefore aids verifiability of those codes, add nine more instances of that parameter because some languages and their dialects and linguistic variants have more than one code, both like on the French Misplaced Pages's version of this template, ], remove the parameter {{param\|lingua_ref}}, because it's currently used in only one article, ']', and add another parameter {{param\|lingua_other_codes}}, for certain information like how many Linguasphere codes some languages and their dialects and linguistic variants have, and those code's ranges? I made those edits to the ] of this template this afternoon on {{diff\|Template:Infobox language/sandbox\|prev\|1231750403\|revisions 1231750403}} and {{diff\|Template:Infobox language/sandbox\|prev\|1231754712\|1231754712}}. ] (]; ]) 06:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Not all of the contents of the table cells use monospace throughout (especially, for ISO 639-3). Even though it's not big or clever, I'm tempted to use <tt> to do the trick. --] 11:56, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
			: {{done}} ] ] 21:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
			== Template-protected edit request on 5 July 2024 ==

			{{edit template-protected\|Template:Infobox language/family-color\|answered=yes}}
	== IPA note text alignment ==
			Uralic language color change from lime to #a8fe74 HEX color change suggestion. Talk on this subject ]. ] (]) 18:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
			: {{done}} ] ] 02:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

			== Template-protected edit request on 11 July 2024 ==
	The centre alignment of the text in the IPA note at the bottom is a bit distracting, too. In my browser, the first line fills the width of the table, and the second line consists of just the word "Unicode" centred by itself. I see no reason for this not to remain in Misplaced Pages's default left-margin text alignment. Any objections to changing this? ''—] ] <small>2005-11-26 19:16 Z</small>''

			{{edit template-protected\|Template:Infobox language\|answered=yes}}
	:As I've been viewing the footer full screen it has seemed fine, but, taking your point, I'll switch it to left alignment. --] 21:23, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
			The abbreviations "(B)" and "(T)" that result from using <code>iso2b</code> and <code>iso2t</code> should be explained to readers in some way. The best option, ISTM, is to link the letters to the relevant article text where the difference between the two types of codes is discussed. This can be done by making the following changes in the template code:
			* <code>&nbsp;(B)</code> → <code>&nbsp;<nowiki>(])</nowiki></code>
			* <code>&nbsp;(T)</code> → <code>&nbsp;<nowiki>(])</nowiki></code>
			These take advantage of existing redirects to that article section, ] and ]. Alternatively, the link target ] could be used for both, but using the redirects is probably preferable in case the section heading is changed in the future. ] (]) 20:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
			: {{done}} ] ] 21:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

			== Linguistic Classification for Contact Languages ==
	==Latest updates==
	Every so often I think that we've arrived at the updated template we are looking for, and then the new ideas start to come in. Some of the latest additions are:
	#You now only need to use one geographical field in the template: {{{states}}} or {{{region}}}. You can still use both, but, if only one is used, it defaults to the 'Spoken/Signed in:' left-hand column.
	#{{tl\|Switch}} is now handling the arrays. Boolean templates are handling most of the options now. Some of the template calls have been rationalised. The routine for making lists of multiple ISO 639-3 codes is now at {{tl\|language/codelist}}, which neatens the syntax in the main template.
	#As no one objected, I've added two new colours: <span style="background:{{language/familycolor\|Paleosiberian}}"><tt>{{language/familycolor\|Paleosiberian}}</tt></span> for {{language/genetic\|Paleosiberian}}, and <span style="background:{{language/familycolor\|Creole}}"><tt>{{language/familycolor\|Creole}}</tt></span> for a {{language/genetic\|Creole}} or a {{language/genetic\|Pidgin}}. Don't use the colour names in {{{familycolor}}}: they haven't been included in the arrays.
	I hope that's all useful to you. --] 21:17, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
	:Hey, thanks about #3! --] 00:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

			Given that contact languages such as creoles, pidgins, and mixed languages are not universally classified as members of language families (i.e., it is unclear whether they descend from individual protolanguages in the usual manner), should the "Language Family" parameter instead be labeled "Linguistic Classification" to accommodate ambiguous or exceptional cases? ] (]) 01:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
	#IMO fontcolor should be run by familycolor
	#can't familycolor be derived from fam1 (, fam2, fam3)? maybe at least for the most common cases. ] ] 17:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

			== Endangered languages ==
	::Yes, I have thought about taking away {{{fontcolor}}}. No article actually uses that parameter usefully. I think it is only necessary on the black background of conlang infoboxes, and then it is handled automatically. I've spoken with Mark about deriving {{{familycolor}}} from {{{fam''n''}}}. The problem is that these parameters can be set to all sorts of different values (almost all are formatted as internal links too), and would be difficult to draw up an array to cover all the possible values and variations. I feel (even though it may seem backward logic) that {{{fam''n''}}} should be kept fexible so that we can enter the most appropriate text and links, and that we continue to use {{{familycolor}}} to define the presentation colour of the infobox, as it is a more well-defined field. Doing things the other way round does work, though. If you leave out {{{fam1}}}, it is automatically supplied by {{{familycolor}}} from the array {{tl\|language/genetic}}. I know this is all a bit backwards, but it makes the template much easier to write. --] 18:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

			I wish to request an edit for this template to include the classication of a given language's danger of extiction, given by UNESCO, as described ]. There are already some articles that hack it in using the {{para\|map}} paramater (see ]), but I believe that it should be included for completeness and as a useful metric to gauge a language's healthiness, compare the vulnerability classification on {{tl\|Speciesbox}}. ] (]) 12:00, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
	== ] ==

			:pinging @] who contributes to the template and might be interested. ] (]) 12:01, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
	Hi. I just noticed that appears to be a ], created by {{user\|70.25.200.220}} sometime in August. I didn't know that such a template existed, but the problem is that the template doesn't look so good -- its defalt color is grey, and doesn't look as nice as this template. What do you think we should do with it? Should we use it or delete it? Any thoughts? It is currently used on four articles: ], ], ], and ] --] 03:07, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
			:IIRC, there's some uneven consensus that we do not include that classification in the infobox. I do not think it adds much concrete information; moreover, something really rubs me the wrong way about presenting sociological data like language vitality identically to biodiversity metrics (though I'm not against the UNESCO schema in itself). It is also not a widely adopted schema IIRC. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 12:05, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
			::@] sociological data is something that I look for often and, in my opinion, would better these articles. would you mind explaining a bit more what is your issues and ideas about these types of classifications? the biodiversity metric are only an example of what to think about but it doesn't need to be exactly that! ] (]) 13:46, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
			:::In general, infoboxes are designed to communicate key facts at a glance ({{cf.}} ]); details that are significantly nuanced or require additional context to understand should be omitted. This classification is not quantitative, and is based on specific criteria that are not universally accepted, which is not adequately clear when listed alongside more quantitative or otherwise objective data about a language like number of speakers or uncontroversial phylogenetic relationships. Given this schema is not universally accepted, it requires additional context and thus should be omitted from the infobox in favor of being discussed in prose. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 22:43, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
			::::I agree that language vitality is not easily captured by a one-dimensional scale, whether it is the UNESCO scale or the more detailed ]. It fails to include vital aspects such as internal and external language attitudes, degree of bilingualism, presence in mass media, etc. I have observed communities speaking languages that formally appear as 6b on the EGIDS scale, but are more likely to persist than languages classified as 5 and 6a.
			::::Also, as of now, most articles that fell victim to the senseless, disruptive mass-edit stunt of abusing the map-parameter blantantly violate ], since they don't have a matching prose section about vitality status. Adding a dedicated parameter won't solve the issue, but rather might invite more additions to the infobox mechanically copied from UNESCO Atlas. –] (]) 23:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
			::::I support the idea of adding a language's endangerment status to the infobox. It's also something that I as a language researcher look for.
			::::I don't think it's correct to say that these scales aren't quantitative; it's just that the metric doesn't capture all the relevant parameters. I also don't think it's true to say that the scales aren't universally accepted. They're not universally accepted in the ''literal'' sense, and all linguists acknowledge their shortcomings, but they're still a legitimate effort to provide an objective standardized metric aimed at assessing endangerment, and these scales are widely adopted and referenced among linguists. Endangerment scales are used for determining priority in grant funding, for example.
			::::It seems to me like endangerment rating is a perfect fit for the purpose of the infobox. But I also acknowledge there's a lot of details in language infoboxes already, and there are tradeoffs to just how much info you can stuff in there before it defeats the purpose of an "at a glance" look. Plus, since there are multiple endangerment scales, there's the question of which to include. Including all 3 of the major ones seems a bit much. might be a good choice though, because it's an aggregation of all of the other scales. ] (]) 23:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

			== Edit request 29 September 2024 ==
	:Well, you've caught me at a time when I feel ready to go on the rampage against the use of the word ''dialect''. The word is totally subjective. Now that {{tl\|language}} has greater flexibility, I think that {{tl\|dialect}} should be put up for deletion, and all instances of it in articles replaced with {{tl\|language}}. --] 15:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
	::*Agree, We have here the "''template that's fits them all''" <sub>→<font style="color:#975612">]</font><font style="color:#325596">]</font></sub> 15:45, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
	:::I've converted all articles that used {{tl\|dialect}} to {{tl\|language}}, and have nominated it for deletion on ]. --] 16:14, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
	:::100% agree ] ] 17:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

			{{edit template-protected\|Template:Infobox language/family-color\|answered=yes}}
	== ] ==
			I propose creating new colors for many language families of the Americas at ] due to the comparatively high load of languages using the "American" color to other colors.

			Some language families which could use their own colors are the proposed Penutian and hypothetical Hokan families, other large families in North America, and major families in South America like Macro-Jê and Tupian.
	Everyone needs to give this page a read. It describes the negative system impact of "templates within templates". I'll be back later to talk about how we're going to eliminate them fromt his template, as soon as I do some experiments. -- ] ] 18:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

			<!--'''Diff:'''
	:] seems to be in open discussion of this right now, and ] seems to be the correct answer. I'm unsure how the server load of this template is measured, but pages that include the template appear to load no less quickly than those without it. --] 22:42, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
			{{TextDiff\|1=ORIGINAL_TEXT\|2=CHANGED_TEXT}}--> <span style="font-weight: bold; background-color: #00c9c2; color: #000000;">] \| ] \| ]</span> 17:36, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
			:] '''Not done for now:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ETp --> Once you have consensus on a specific new color scheme, feel free to re-activate this request by changing the template back to {{para\|answered\|no}} <span class="nowrap">--] (])</span> 19:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
			::I have some consensus at ] on the addition of these specific family colors:
			::* {{legend\|#afced1\|]}}
			::* {{legend\|#91d1e3\|]}}
			::* {{legend\|#66c0cf\|]}}
			::* {{legend\|#3686cc\|]}}
			::* {{legend\|#4865bd\|]}}
			::* {{legend\|#98b1c7\|]}}
			::* {{legend\|#c0e5e0\|]}}
			::* {{legend\|#638ba8\|]}}
			::* {{legend\|#275379\|]}}
			::* {{legend\|#1d8c97\|]}}
			::* {{legend\|#1f1780\|]}}<span style="font-weight: bold; background-color: #00c9c2; color: #000000;">] \| ] \| ]</span> 00:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			:{{complete2}}. ''''']''''' , ] ] <small>04:35, 9 December 2024 (UTC)</small>

			== Remove Linguasphere? ==
	:: ] is a proposed (i.e. hypothetical) extension to the way Templates are handled by the software. What is being used here in this template is NOT "extended template syntax", as described on that page. Some "clever" folks have found an ugly way to "fake out" the software. As far as page load times, please don't assume these have no cost. ] is currently being assaulted by these "clever" folks, but it has been endorsed in the past by both the ArbCom and the MediaWiki developers. -- ] ] 22:51, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

			The Linguasphere classification isn't the same caliber of classification scheme as the other codes listed in this template. ISO codes, Glottolog codes, AIATSIS, etc. are all well-established databases backed by research that are used by both researchers and international standards organizations globally.
	''In the past'' being the key phrase there. Wikimedia has far more computing power now than back then, and I'm not so sure these templates cause much of an effect now. ] (]) 08:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

			Linguasphere, on the other hand, is mostly one person's passion project, and he passed away in 2020. The project website (https://linguasphere.info/) is defunct with many links broken, and the register itself hasn't been updated since 2010. The talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Linguasphere_Observatory) for the Linguasphere Observatory article provides some more context/history. It's also worth noting that there's a proposal on the talk page to simply delete the Linguasphere article entirely. If the Linguasphere article itself is in question, it doesn't seem like the Linguasphere classification is of sufficiently high quality to be presented as a serious classification scheme on every language page on Misplaced Pages.
	== Move this template to ] ==

			My biggest concern, however, is that Linguasphere doesn't seem to be a scientifically serious classification. It's hard to find a consistent and clear statement of what exactly Linguasphere is supposed to be in the first place, but what statements I can find are just vague references to "the continuous system of human languages" and "situating each language and dialect within the totality of the world's living and recorded languages". The groupings and classifications seem to be largely subjective, based on an overly-romanticized ideas of language and culture, made without awareness of existing scientific classification schemes like Glottolog or Ethnologue, or the technical notions of linguistic areas (https://en.wikipedia.org/Sprachbund).
	I propose that this template should be moved to ], mostly because this '''is''' an infobox <sub>→<font style="color:#975612">]</font><font style="color:#325596">]</font></sub> 10:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

			Here is an excerpt from a 2006 UNESCO report on language statistics (https://uis.unesco.org/sites/default/files/documents/evaluating-language-statistics-the-ethnologue-and-beyond-en_0.pdf) about the Linguasphere:
	:support. even if it is very nice and short now, but we should take care of WP as a whole and stick to this format. Then, within thousands of templates the Infoboxes can be quickly identified. ] ] 15:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

			"The Linguasphere Registry, like the Ethnologue, is presented both as a set of print volumes and delivered electronically over the Internet. Unlike the Ethnologue, the whole of the information in the Linguasphere Registry is not viewable for free on the Internet. The website for the electronic version is split over three domains: www.linguasphere.org, www.linguasphere.net, and www.linguasphere.com. Each site has somewhat different information, e.g. the dot-com site has an order form for print and electronic access, while the dot-org and dot-net sites provide more background information and lack an ordering mechanism. The dot-org site provides samples from the Register for free download, which are Adobe PDF format documents. No equivalent to a database front-end is yet available for this data. The Linguasphere Register is currently maintained as a project of the Linguasphere Observatory, and international organization incorporated in Wales, France and India. It is unclear from the websites whether there has been significant activity in the organization since late 2004, but a number of projects including those involving the construction of language maps, are reported to be ongoing as of the last update."
	::I don't believe there is any guideline that says that an infobox template has to have ''infobox'' in its name, though some do. To make this change, we would have to alter every article in which the template occured, using a redirect here in the meantime. This is a huge amount of work for what is a hidden, internal stylistic change without a guideline to back it up. Maybe we should have a list for those who support the change and want to do it/programme the bot. --] 17:03, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

			For context, my perspective is that of a professional research linguist with a Ph.D. in the field. I think my views are fairly representative of the academic linguistics community in regards to this topic. I don't think anybody in the field takes this register seriously. ] (]) 15:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
	:::technically this is no problem. Move the template. And look for a guy with a bot. There are lot's of bot guy around, I think. ] ] 18:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
			:I support removing Linguasphere from the template. ] (]) 16:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
			:Remove. The point of the Ethn link is that the ISO code is a common means of identification, and SIL provides basic demographic and sociolinguistic data and a map that we often use. The point of the Glotto link is that it provides a decent classification and a close-to-complete bibiography for smaller languages that we also often use. I don't know what the point of the Linguasphere link is. At least, I've never found a use for it, and if there's no clear utility I think it shouldn't take up space in the infobox. ] (]) 18:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

			== Template-protected edit request on 1 November 2024 ==
	::::OK then. There are a number of sub-templates that this one uses that will have to be moved too. The links that reference them in the template itself will have to be changed too. The question is why: why do we need to move this at all (because it is an infobox is no real answer)? --] 19:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
	:of course exactly only because it is an infobox. This is a real answer. See ], lots of conforming and lot of unconforming Infoboxes. It's nice to see from a template name that it is an infobox. ] can be lots of things, but ] is very clear. BTW use uppercase L, because it is not a ''Infobox language'' but a Infobox named ''Language''. Seems to be favored way for new templates anyway. ] ] 20:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

			{{edit template-protected\|Template:Infobox language\|answered=yes}}
	:::::Why does it matter? I really doubt a whole bunch of non-editors will be looking at this template. --] 02:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
			Can someone please remove the invisible comment marks around the ] on {{tl\|Infobox language/lingualist}}, because I've just created that category a few minutes ago now? ] (]; ]) 09:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
			:{{Done\|{{U\|PK2\|Done}}}}   <b>~</b> <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:16px;">] (] ⋅])</span>  10:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

			== Template-protected edit request on 5 November 2024 ==
	::::::Maybe read the above. There are thougth(s) of why it matters. Nobody claimed non-editors would look at templates at all. one more ref how others stick to standards: ] - BTW: if it does not matter to you, we could move? ] ] 15:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

			{{edit template-protected\|Template:Infobox language\|answered=yes}}
	:::::::But what's the point of sticking to standards if non-editors aren't gonna see it? --] 00:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
	~~::::::::~~to ~~the~~ ~~help of editors?~~ ;-) ] ] 15:56, 14 ~~December~~ ~~2005~~ (UTC)		Expand to fam20 (see ]). ] (]) 04:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::BTW: IMO it's nothing that has to be done immediatly. Just something that IMO should be done some day. If anybody has the bot and the in-template references can be fixed. do it (IMO). ] ] 15:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

			:I must admit I am skeptical of the need for this level of diachronic granularity in an infobox. Wouldn't it be better to abridge it there and include a full tree in the article body if desired? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 04:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
	== Australian and Papuan language colors ==
			::{{ping\|Remsense}} Maybe, though as for how to implement such a thing, especially without it just being absurdly arbitrary, I wouldn't know. ] (]) 23:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
			::I also don't think 20 (or even the current 15) is really necessary.
			::It's true that most languages ''can'' and ''do'' get that granular (, for example), but in practice in the literature most scholars simply list the major branches. I would write this for English, for example:
			::<code>English < Germanic < Indo-European</code>
			::But if I were discussing the Germanic language family in particular, I'd get a bit more detailed:
			::<code>English < West Germanic < Germanic < Indo-European</code>
			::I agree with @] that the choice of branches to include is arbitrary. And that's actually okay—you ''should'' adjust the list based on context.
			::In the context of Misplaced Pages, I think the notability principle is the most sensible criterion to go by. If a branch of a family isn't notable enough to warrant its own page, then it probably doesn't make sense to include it in the diachronic tree. ] (]) 23:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
			:{{not done for now}}:<!-- Template:ETp --> Are more than 15 really needed on that page? I see 15 in use now, and I don't see a discussion on the talk page or a more-detailed list within the article. – ] (]) 06:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
			::{{ping\|Jonesey95}} That's because the 16th entry isn't shown because the fam16 parameter doesn't exist yet. ] (]) 23:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

			== Template-protected edit request on 11 November 2024 ==
	I noticed that the colors for Australian and Papuan languages are very similar, and it's almost hard to tell the difference unless they are side-by-side. I suggest we make the color darker or lighter for one of them. Any thoughts? --] 03:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

			{{edit template-protected\|Template:Infobox language\|answered=yes}}
	:I see what you mean. The current colours are <span style="background-color:{{language/familycolor\|Australian}}">{{language/familycolor\|Australian}} for {{language/genetic\|Australian}}</span> and <span style="background-color:{{language/familycolor\|Papuan}}">{{language/familycolor\|Papuan}} for {{language/genetic\|Papuan}}</span>. We might want to move one or both to <span style="background-color:plum">plum</span> and/or <span style="background-color:magenta">magenta</span>. --] 11:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
	::I like plum, if you ask me. — ] ] 14:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
	::Plum is nice, but magent is not nice, I would suggest: <span style="background-color:#fd79da">#fd79da for {{language/genetic\|Papuan}}</span> and <span style="background-color:#eba9ee">#eba9ee for {{language/genetic\|Australian}}</span> <sub>→<font style="color:#975612">]</font><font style="color:#325596">]</font></sub> 17:34, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
	:::As you can see from my last post, the colours have been updated to those proposed by ]. They are now more distinct. --] 17:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
	::::They look a lot better now. --] 02:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

			Could the limit of the <code>lcN=</code> and <code>ldN=</code> and <code>labelN=</code> parameters please be increased from 30 to 40? The current limit is causing problems at ], where ] cannot be appropriately split into ] and ], despite the code for Durango having been split back in 2011. This is because all 30 parameters are already in use. Thanks. ] (]) 23:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
	== bot request - what could be done in the same run? ==
			: I've granted you template editor rights so you can do it yourself instead. ] ] 18:46, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
			:Shouldn't ] use {{tlx\|Infobox language family}} and {{para\|childN}} instead, and leave the ISO codes to the individual language pages (which already have them)? ] 18:51, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
			::@] Quite possibly, but it turns out ] goes up to 37, so the increase was still needed anyway.
			::@] Thanks for that - I've implemented the change (and have added the same limit for dialects, too, since at least one page was exceeding the old limit). This should probably be Lua-fied at some point, as no doubt another arbitrary increase will eventually be needed. ] (]) 22:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

			== Proposal for new parameter to include audio/video recording depicting a language ==
	If we get a bot, maybe other usefull stuff could be done. ] ] 17:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
	*add iso3 codes to those articles that have unique mapping to iso3
	**we have to compile a list of language articles and the codes.
	*put regions and states together?
	*change values of familycolor from color name to familyname
	**does every colorname only have one familyname it can be changed to?
	***it's best to choose the highest name on the list as that's usually preferred; some classes don't need to be searched (Paleosiberian, Creole/Pidgin/Mixed, Sign, Conlang) as they are either new or rarely use the parameter; there may be a couple of wrong results due to the original swap of Sino-Tibetan/Austronesian by hand, but the change to a name will make the mistake obvious (e.g. ] getting '''familycolor=Sino-Tibetan'''). ] 23:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
	**should we only allow ''one'' spelling for the family, eg all lowercase no hyphen? (could reduce size of template)
	***the idea behind a few different choices was to allow a little human flexibility; the array {{]}} isn't too big to manage. ] 23:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
	*change {{{nation}}}
	**what's that?
	***articles with '''rank=Not in top 100''' or '''rank=<nowiki>''Not in top 100''</nowiki>''' could have that text removed; also '''nation=none''', '''agency=none''' or similar ''null strings'' could be removed, but it's difficult to guess all the different sorts of nothing there may be. ] 23:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
	*split {{{family}}} into {{{fam''n''}}}
	**what problems could occur?
	***the articles have implemented {{{family}}} in different ways; I think human intervention might be easier here. ] 23:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
	*change some of the variable names?
	**like what? ] 23:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
	**...

			I want to propose a new optional parameter called recording that could allow audio/video recordings. We now have such recordings on Commons of native speakers speaking their languages. These add encyclopedic value to an article depicting variants, accents, intonations, syntaxes and even gender-based variations which are important linguistic attributes. I'm personally ] on a project to bring language media from CC-licensed documentaries. Some examples are ] and ]. However, there is no convention on inserting a recording in a proper format. So, a range of nonstandard approaches exist. The infobox parameter I'm proposing should be limited to audio and video only since a separate image parameter exists for images depicting the language. It's worth noting that images are of no use to depict languages with no writing systems (oral languages). This parameter can be called "recorded_media" allowing available audio/video on Commons and include within the infobox a supporting parameter called "recorded_media_depicts" (or "recorded_media_description") letting the uploader include what the media depicts. For brevity, those two should be enough. ] (]) 17:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
	::Well, I didn't want to get into that position, and I hope that in the future the template will be easier to understand and edit. I've been making quite a few changes by hand, but I don't think a bot would be able to do much of these other changes. Language coding is complicated enough as to require some human thought. Splitting {{{family}}} into {{{fam''n''}}} parameters also probably requires human attention. Putting region and states together is rather an optional thing in my mind: if you can't think of anything useful to put in two geographical fields, leave one of them out. A lot of infoboxes use {{{rank}}}, {{{nation}}} and {{{agency}}} with no useful information (stopping the infobox compacting). There a few regular things that seem to be put in these otherwise null strings, so the bot would have to be given a sense of what is an obviously useless string. Probably the most useful thing a bot could do is to learn {{]}} and change all definitions of {{{familycolor}}} that are colour names into language-family names. This would end the current silliness of pink=tomato! --] 18:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
	:::I put some of your thoughts in the above list. some stuff is marked with question mark. maybe you can add some further thoughts to these. ] ] 22:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
	::::OK. I've added some bits to it. ] 23:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

			:It's easy to add videos, recordings or images to an article (see for instance: ]). I don't see the point of adding this to the infobox. ] (]) 18:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
	== Conversion to qif ==
			::: By that logic, there should be no parameter for image or native name. It's not about the "possibility" but keeping some of the very crucial information packaged in the infobox, encouraging editors to add recordings. --] (]) 19:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::Yes for "very crucial information" (number of speakers, language family, location, etc.) but a random recording chosen subjectively and arbitrarily is not "very crucial information". For instance, which accent/register/dialect will you choose to represent the language? What will they talk about? If we had something like article first of the declaration of human rights in all languages, then why not add this below for people to "experience" the language. But still, I don't think the infobox is made for that. Has any other Misplaced Pages edition done that? ] (]) 09:21, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

			== Is using term "Country"/"Countries is more correct instead of "Native to" ==
	Hi all. I would like to trigger a conversion of this master piece from usage of ] (]) to the faster and server friendlier ] (]). I have done a try (without the noinclude section) at ] (). Note: this is a manual conversion.

			I found that term "''Native to''" is not that term used for ancestral homeland of language, and currently instead used this term as dominant countries/nations (the country or nation where this language is spoken and centralized worldwide).
	What do you think? Or would any of the local experts do the conversion? Please feel free to edit ] as you see fit (open house user sub-page, also the associated talk page). – ] \| ] 21:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

			It could be changed term from "''Native to''", replacing word with "''Countries''"/"''Country''" while keeping same function and is more correct.
	:You've obviously made a straight switch between {{]}} with numbered parameters and {{]}}. It seems that {{]}} hasn't thrown up any problems so far. I suggest we change to the new template and see what happens. I imagine {{]}} is a pretty good test for any logic template! --] 00:41, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

			When a single country or nation is displayed, it could be written as "''Country''". When two or more countries displayed in infobox (separated by comma <code>,</code>), it will display as ''"Countries"'', unless it bypassed by using wikitext/HTML codes <code>&#44;</code> <code>&#x2C;</code> <code>&comma;</code>. If using these HTML codes, it can allow two or more nations to appear as "'''Countries'''".
	::Yes. Thanks for the reply. Yea this is a nice master piece of <tt>if</tt> logic and I can say that, although it's a tough one I found it quite straight to convert thanks to its clean structure and good indenting. However, I'm very reluctant to just throw my proposal in, as this is obviously very delicated stuff and I'm not an expert of the field. Yes, I've done a stright convert to <tt>qif</tt>, but we could easily do that in two steps and switch to the named parameters variant of <tt>if</tt> as a first step. I could do a search and replace on ] from <tt>qif</tt> to <tt>if</tt> and put that into ] as an intermediate step. A good idea would be if I do this when you are around on wikipedia so you can quickly see if something breaks and revert. Maybe you could leave a message on my talk when you're online. Alternatively, of course I would also be happy if you do the conversion yourself (you don't have to use ], maybe it would even be better if you don't use that because you know the structure of ] much better than I do). I Hope I did not give too many options :-). What do you think? Thanks! – ] \| ] 08:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

	~~:::''I~~ ~~Hope~~ I ~~did~~ ~~not~~ ~~give~~ ~~too~~ ~~many~~ ~~options~~ ~~:-)''~~ - ~~have~~ ~~you~~ ~~considered~~ ~~using~~ ~~{{tl\|switch}}~~ to ~~present your thoughts? :P —~~ ] ] 09:25, 16 December ~~2005~~ (UTC)		Term "Native to" could be used for ancestral homelands of the language (that is currently is row "Region") ] (]) 06:58, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

			== Plain lists in refs ==
	::::I know switch. But my intention was not to do development on ]. My goal is just to eliminate <tt>if<tt> by doing (stupid) status-quo preserving conversion jobs to <tt>qif</tt>. I cannot comment on using <tt>switch</tt> at the moment. – ] \| ] 10:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

			The /refs subtemplate generates lists of refs using line breaks. This is deprecated for accessibility reasons in favour of real lists such as {{tlx\|plainlist}}. In ] I've used wiki bulleted lists instead. I'm not sure how to test this properly - tbh I don't understand how the infobox uses it, which is why ] It's not as straightforward as putting a test case in ] because the infobox's sandbox doesn't use the sandbox version of the subtemplate. My attempts at ] for the subtemplate directly (based on ]) didn't work. ] (]) 17:50, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
	::Warning: ] is out of sync at the moment. would need to be factored in . – ] \| ] 16:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

			== Edit request 17 December 2024 ==
	:::That change was helpful to the infobox on ] <span class="plainlinks">(] · · )</span>. I used {{]}}, and it can be easily factored in. I would suggest that this change be made to ] and the whole lot shifted in here. There doesn't seem to be much reason to do this in stages: the template is already using {{]}} indirectly. Verifying that everything is working properly is a bit difficult. There are nearly a thousand articles that use the template, and they implement it in anumber of different subtle ways. In the highly unlikely event that the change wrecks the infobox entirely. it can be just reverted. It is far more likely that if there's a problem it will affect a few infoboxes in a not too spectacular way. So, it might take a few days to see if everything is fine. --] 17:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

			{{edit template-protected\|Template:Infobox language/family-color\|answered=yes}}
	::::OK. I will go for it. Hold on your breath :-). – ] \| ] 17:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
			'''I would like to change the color of the Penutian family in ], to make it more distinctive from the Na-Dene languages.'''

			'''Diff:'''
	::::Done. See . Please revert if there is something broken. Thanks! (Updated) – – ] \| ] 18:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
			{{TextDiff\|1=#92d1e3\|2=#6bc4de}} <span style="font-weight: bold; background-color: #00c9c2; color: #000000;">] \| ] \| ]</span> 02:36, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

			:Additionally, change the Pano-Tacanan color to include white text to make it more visible. <span style="font-weight: bold; background-color: #00c9c2; color: #000000;">] \| ] \| ]</span> 23:28, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
	I've converted ] (). – ] \| ] 18:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
			:{{done}}<!-- Template:ETp --> ] (]) 20:44, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

			== Edit request 19 December 2024 ==
	I've converted ] (). – ] \| ] 18:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

			I pressed many links of this, I see that original list (even in Wayback Machine archive), these links are dead and it seen as error screen that is moved to GitHub Multitree.
	:Well done! It's all working perfectly as far as I can see. I picked out a few language articles that implement the template in different ways, and they are all displaying normally. --] 18:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

			https://github.com/linguistlist/multitree ] (]) 06:06, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	I did change all {{tl\|if defined call}},{{tl\|if defined call1}},{{tl\|if defined call2}} to {{tlt\|if defined}} <sub>→<font style="color:#975612">]</font><font style="color:#325596">]</font></sub> 18:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

			:What are you trying to accomplish? <span style="font-weight: bold; background-color: #00c9c2; color: #000000;">] \| ] \| ]</span> 02:18, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Everything is fine. I've noticed (in the section below edit boxes) that this template is calling sub-templates that it isn't using. I haven't noticed this before, so it might be a side-effect of using {{]}}. The sub-templates in question are {{]}} and {{]}}. The former is only used by a handful of constructed languages, but it appears to be called by every (?) language article with the template. The latter sub-template is only used where a language has multiple ISO 639-3 codes, but appears to be used by every language article using the template. There may be other sub-templates that are being called and not used in this way, but I just haven't had time to check for them. I think these sub-templates are called directly off the back of a {{]}}, and that calling them through {{]}} might reduce server load. Also, if anyone is a good CSS hack, please take a look at {{]}}: it shouldn't have borders when added into the main template. --] 13:43, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
			::I think the point is that the pages pointed by {{para\|linglist}} are dead, so the parameter should be removed, or at least no longer generate a link. Most (all?) of these codes are redundant to {{para\|iso3}} anyway. ] 17:46, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::There are two situations here. One, ISO codes where LingList is the ISO governing authority for the code. The ISO page provides a link to Ethnologue that doesn't go anywhere; Ethnologue won't actually have a page for that language. The question here is how we handle a recognized authority when that authority is defunct / no longer online.
			:::The second are ISO codes in the private-use range , as well as private non-ISO codes with digits in them. Because such codes are not universal, and have no utility outside LingList, I don't see any point to keeping them. Glottolog will often cover the lect, and in such cases that link is often a more than adequate replacement.
			:::IMO, we should keep the LingList label in case 1 until ISO provides a new authority for them, at which point we can remove the LingList coding from the infobox template. If we can't link them to anything useful, we should remove the link coding from this template; we can always restore it if something becomes available.
			:::We should remove any surviving links in case 2 now. ] (]) 19:38, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::LingList was the source of several ISO 639-3 codes, but doesn't seem to have any continuing role. The ISO 639 Maintenance Agency is now reachable via iso639-3@sil.org. ] 21:01, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::AFAIK, ISO only maintains the codes, names and aliases. They don't maintain definitions of those codes/names. For most codes, Ethnologue maintains that information, but for most languages extinct before 1950, it was LingList that did so. Now that the LingList project is defunct, it doesn't appear that anyone does. Ethnologue hasn't picked up the slack. ] (]) 21:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

			== Edit request 5 January 2025 ==
	== ] ==

			{{edit template-protected\|answered=yes}}
	] has created this template as a version that avoids conflict with ]. However, he has done this with no discussion, and I am not happy with the result. I am posting this here so that those who use this template might be aware of what he's doing. --] 18:40, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
			Could we change the text color for Pano-Tacanan and Macro-Je please? they are barely visible. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 05:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
			:] '''Not done''': it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ETp --> ] (]) 02:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

			== Template-protected edit request on 5 January 2025 ==
	: I warned users on this page (]) weeks ago, and noone was forthcoming. I am beginning to convert the "simpler" language articles into this new infobox. I have started with a pilot group of a few articles, but everytime I try and make progress, Garzo my edits. Garzo's displeasure is irrelevant, because ] trumps ''anything'' else that this template has been hacked into doing. I'm not sure how much functionality can be packed into the non-meta-template version, but if even half can be converted quickly, that is an improvement. -- ] ] 08:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

			{{edit template-protected\|Template:Infobox language\|answered=yes}}
	Garzo! Thanks for informing us! What Netoholic is doing is realy bad. He warned us, lol. You have my full support of reverts. Furthermore I am not even sure if WP:AUM really applies here, I raised the question on a different issue (a template that's not edited because it is protected) but nobody could tell a reference in WP:AUM that's states how this could harm the servers. So if our subtemplates are stable soon, they may get protected. ] ] 16:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
			Can someone please add the {{tlxs\|tfm\|Infobox proto-language}} tag to this template so I can nominate it for merging with {{tl\|Infobox proto-language}}. I've already added it to that template just now because it's not currently protected. ] (]; ]) 09:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			: Done. ] ] 05:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 08:52, 9 January 2025

This template was considered for merging with Template:Infobox proto-language on 5 January 2025. The result of the discussion was "keep".

Template:Infobox language is permanently protected from editing because it is a heavily used or highly visible template. Substantial changes should first be proposed and discussed here on this page. If the proposal is uncontroversial or has been discussed and is supported by consensus, editors may use {{edit template-protected}} to notify an administrator or template editor to make the requested edit. Usually, any contributor may edit the template's documentation to add usage notes or categories.

Any contributor may edit the template's sandbox. Functionality of the template can be checked using test cases.

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Infoboxes

This template is within the scope of WikiProject Infoboxes, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Infoboxes on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.InfoboxesWikipedia:WikiProject InfoboxesTemplate:WikiProject InfoboxesInfoboxes

Languages

This template is within the scope of WikiProject Languages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of languages on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LanguagesWikipedia:WikiProject LanguagesTemplate:WikiProject Languageslanguage

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This page has archives. Sections older than 240 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Correction of misleading "family-color" groups

According to a search of the archives this has been brought up more than once over the years. Given that “Altaic” is widely rejected as a valid grouping, there should be separate colors at least for Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic languages. Koreanic and Japonic could get their own colors or use the "isolate" color. عُثمان (talk) 14:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

This has alreaqdy been done at the French Misplaced Pages. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 00:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 5 May 2024

This edit request to Template:Infobox language/linguistlist has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please replace ] with ] per Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 21#Category:Languages with Linglist code. (Note this is an edit request for {{Infobox language/linguistlist}}, not {{infobox language}}.) Thanks! House Blaster (talk · he/him) 15:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 26 June 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Can someone please replace http:// with https:// on line 3, per this RfC, because the 'Endangered Languages Project (ELP)' website now supports 'https'? (Note this is an edit request for {{#invoke:Endangered Languages Project}}, not {{infobox language}}.) PK2 (talk) 12:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Done Sohom (talk) 13:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 30 June 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Can someone please replace

| data42 = {{#if:{{{lingua|}}}|<code>{{{lingua}}}</code>{{{lingua_ref|}}}}}

with:

| data42 = {{Infobox language/lingualist|1={{{lingua|}}}|2={{{linguaname|}}}}}

and add two parameters {{{lingua2-10}}} and {{{linguaname(1)-10}}}, the template that I just created this afternoon, {{Infobox language/lingualist}} for the parameter regarding the Linguasphere Observatory codes, because it contains a link to the website http://www.hortensj-garden.org/index.php?tnc=1&tr=lsr&nid= and therefore aids verifiability of those codes, add nine more instances of that parameter because some languages and their dialects and linguistic variants have more than one code, both like on the French Misplaced Pages's version of this template, fr:Modèle:Infobox Langue, remove the parameter {{{lingua_ref}}}, because it's currently used in only one article, 'Shetland dialect', and add another parameter {{{lingua_other_codes}}}, for certain information like how many Linguasphere codes some languages and their dialects and linguistic variants have, and those code's ranges? I made those edits to the sandbox version of this template this afternoon on revisions 1231750403 and 1231754712. PK2 (talk; contributions) 06:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 5 July 2024

This edit request to Template:Infobox language/family-color has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Uralic language color change from lime to #a8fe74 HEX color change suggestion. Talk on this subject under here. Ewithu (talk) 18:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 11 July 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The abbreviations "(B)" and "(T)" that result from using iso2b and iso2t should be explained to readers in some way. The best option, ISTM, is to link the letters to the relevant article text where the difference between the two types of codes is discussed. This can be done by making the following changes in the template code:

 (B) →  (])
 (T) →  (])

These take advantage of existing redirects to that article section, ISO 639-2/B and ISO 639-2/T. Alternatively, the link target ISO 639-2#B and T codes could be used for both, but using the redirects is probably preferable in case the section heading is changed in the future. dcljr (talk) 20:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Linguistic Classification for Contact Languages

Given that contact languages such as creoles, pidgins, and mixed languages are not universally classified as members of language families (i.e., it is unclear whether they descend from individual protolanguages in the usual manner), should the "Language Family" parameter instead be labeled "Linguistic Classification" to accommodate ambiguous or exceptional cases? Conocephalus (talk) 01:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Endangered languages

I wish to request an edit for this template to include the classication of a given language's danger of extiction, given by UNESCO, as described on this article. There are already some articles that hack it in using the |map= paramater (see Adyghe language), but I believe that it should be included for completeness and as a useful metric to gauge a language's healthiness, compare the vulnerability classification on {{Speciesbox}}. Juwan (talk) 12:00, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

pinging @Kwamikagami who contributes to the template and might be interested. Juwan (talk) 12:01, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

IIRC, there's some uneven consensus that we do not include that classification in the infobox. I do not think it adds much concrete information; moreover, something really rubs me the wrong way about presenting sociological data like language vitality identically to biodiversity metrics (though I'm not against the UNESCO schema in itself). It is also not a widely adopted schema IIRC. Remsense ‥ 论 12:05, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense sociological data is something that I look for often and, in my opinion, would better these articles. would you mind explaining a bit more what is your issues and ideas about these types of classifications? the biodiversity metric are only an example of what to think about but it doesn't need to be exactly that! Juwan (talk) 13:46, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

In general, infoboxes are designed to communicate key facts at a glance (cf. WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE); details that are significantly nuanced or require additional context to understand should be omitted. This classification is not quantitative, and is based on specific criteria that are not universally accepted, which is not adequately clear when listed alongside more quantitative or otherwise objective data about a language like number of speakers or uncontroversial phylogenetic relationships. Given this schema is not universally accepted, it requires additional context and thus should be omitted from the infobox in favor of being discussed in prose. Remsense ‥ 论 22:43, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree that language vitality is not easily captured by a one-dimensional scale, whether it is the UNESCO scale or the more detailed EGIDS. It fails to include vital aspects such as internal and external language attitudes, degree of bilingualism, presence in mass media, etc. I have observed communities speaking languages that formally appear as 6b on the EGIDS scale, but are more likely to persist than languages classified as 5 and 6a.

Also, as of now, most articles that fell victim to the senseless, disruptive mass-edit stunt of abusing the map-parameter blantantly violate WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, since they don't have a matching prose section about vitality status. Adding a dedicated parameter won't solve the issue, but rather might invite more additions to the infobox mechanically copied from UNESCO Atlas. –Austronesier (talk) 23:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I support the idea of adding a language's endangerment status to the infobox. It's also something that I as a language researcher look for.

I don't think it's correct to say that these scales aren't quantitative; it's just that the metric doesn't capture all the relevant parameters. I also don't think it's true to say that the scales aren't universally accepted. They're not universally accepted in the literal sense, and all linguists acknowledge their shortcomings, but they're still a legitimate effort to provide an objective standardized metric aimed at assessing endangerment, and these scales are widely adopted and referenced among linguists. Endangerment scales are used for determining priority in grant funding, for example.

It seems to me like endangerment rating is a perfect fit for the purpose of the infobox. But I also acknowledge there's a lot of details in language infoboxes already, and there are tradeoffs to just how much info you can stuff in there before it defeats the purpose of an "at a glance" look. Plus, since there are multiple endangerment scales, there's the question of which to include. Including all 3 of the major ones seems a bit much. Glottolog's Agglomerated Endangerment Scale might be a good choice though, because it's an aggregation of all of the other scales. Dwhieb (talk) 23:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Edit request 29 September 2024

This edit request to Template:Infobox language/family-color has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I propose creating new colors for many language families of the Americas at Template:Infobox language/family-color due to the comparatively high load of languages using the "American" color to other colors.

Some language families which could use their own colors are the proposed Penutian and hypothetical Hokan families, other large families in North America, and major families in South America like Macro-Jê and Tupian.

🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 17:36, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Not done for now: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Once you have consensus on a specific new color scheme, feel free to re-activate this request by changing the template back to |answered=no --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I have some consensus at WT:LANG on the addition of these specific family colors:

Salishan languages
Penutian languages
Hokan languages
Oto-Manguean languages
Mayan languages
Arawakan languages
Quechuan languages
Tupian languages
Macro-Jê languages
Cariban languages
Pano-Tacanan languages 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 00:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Completed. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. 04:35, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Remove Linguasphere?

The Linguasphere classification isn't the same caliber of classification scheme as the other codes listed in this template. ISO codes, Glottolog codes, AIATSIS, etc. are all well-established databases backed by research that are used by both researchers and international standards organizations globally.

Linguasphere, on the other hand, is mostly one person's passion project, and he passed away in 2020. The project website (https://linguasphere.info/) is defunct with many links broken, and the register itself hasn't been updated since 2010. The talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Linguasphere_Observatory) for the Linguasphere Observatory article provides some more context/history. It's also worth noting that there's a proposal on the talk page to simply delete the Linguasphere article entirely. If the Linguasphere article itself is in question, it doesn't seem like the Linguasphere classification is of sufficiently high quality to be presented as a serious classification scheme on every language page on Misplaced Pages.

My biggest concern, however, is that Linguasphere doesn't seem to be a scientifically serious classification. It's hard to find a consistent and clear statement of what exactly Linguasphere is supposed to be in the first place, but what statements I can find are just vague references to "the continuous system of human languages" and "situating each language and dialect within the totality of the world's living and recorded languages". The groupings and classifications seem to be largely subjective, based on an overly-romanticized ideas of language and culture, made without awareness of existing scientific classification schemes like Glottolog or Ethnologue, or the technical notions of linguistic areas (https://en.wikipedia.org/Sprachbund).

Here is an excerpt from a 2006 UNESCO report on language statistics (https://uis.unesco.org/sites/default/files/documents/evaluating-language-statistics-the-ethnologue-and-beyond-en_0.pdf) about the Linguasphere:

"The Linguasphere Registry, like the Ethnologue, is presented both as a set of print volumes and delivered electronically over the Internet. Unlike the Ethnologue, the whole of the information in the Linguasphere Registry is not viewable for free on the Internet. The website for the electronic version is split over three domains: www.linguasphere.org, www.linguasphere.net, and www.linguasphere.com. Each site has somewhat different information, e.g. the dot-com site has an order form for print and electronic access, while the dot-org and dot-net sites provide more background information and lack an ordering mechanism. The dot-org site provides samples from the Register for free download, which are Adobe PDF format documents. No equivalent to a database front-end is yet available for this data. The Linguasphere Register is currently maintained as a project of the Linguasphere Observatory, and international organization incorporated in Wales, France and India. It is unclear from the websites whether there has been significant activity in the organization since late 2004, but a number of projects including those involving the construction of language maps, are reported to be ongoing as of the last update."

For context, my perspective is that of a professional research linguist with a Ph.D. in the field. I think my views are fairly representative of the academic linguistics community in regards to this topic. I don't think anybody in the field takes this register seriously. Dwhieb (talk) 15:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I support removing Linguasphere from the template. DRMcCreedy (talk) 16:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Remove. The point of the Ethn link is that the ISO code is a common means of identification, and SIL provides basic demographic and sociolinguistic data and a map that we often use. The point of the Glotto link is that it provides a decent classification and a close-to-complete bibiography for smaller languages that we also often use. I don't know what the point of the Linguasphere link is. At least, I've never found a use for it, and if there's no clear utility I think it shouldn't take up space in the infobox. — kwami (talk) 18:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 1 November 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Can someone please remove the invisible comment marks around the category 'Language articles with Linguasphere code' on {{Infobox language/lingualist}}, because I've just created that category a few minutes ago now? PK2 (talk; contributions) 09:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Done ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf) 10:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 5 November 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Expand to fam20 (see Sercquiais). Arctic Circle System (talk) 04:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I must admit I am skeptical of the need for this level of diachronic granularity in an infobox. Wouldn't it be better to abridge it there and include a full tree in the article body if desired? Remsense ‥ 论 04:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense: Maybe, though as for how to implement such a thing, especially without it just being absurdly arbitrary, I wouldn't know. Arctic Circle System (talk) 23:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I also don't think 20 (or even the current 15) is really necessary.

It's true that most languages can and do get that granular (here's English, for example), but in practice in the literature most scholars simply list the major branches. I would write this for English, for example:

English < Germanic < Indo-European

But if I were discussing the Germanic language family in particular, I'd get a bit more detailed:

English < West Germanic < Germanic < Indo-European

I agree with @Remsense that the choice of branches to include is arbitrary. And that's actually okay—you should adjust the list based on context.

In the context of Misplaced Pages, I think the notability principle is the most sensible criterion to go by. If a branch of a family isn't notable enough to warrant its own page, then it probably doesn't make sense to include it in the diachronic tree. Dwhieb (talk) 23:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Not done for now: Are more than 15 really needed on that page? I see 15 in use now, and I don't see a discussion on the talk page or a more-detailed list within the article. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Jonesey95: That's because the 16th entry isn't shown because the fam16 parameter doesn't exist yet. Arctic Circle System (talk) 23:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 11 November 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Could the limit of the lcN= and ldN= and labelN= parameters please be increased from 30 to 40? The current limit is causing problems at Nahuan languages, where Durango Nahuatl cannot be appropriately split into Eastern Durango Nahuatl and Western Durango Nahuatl, despite the code for Durango having been split back in 2011. This is because all 30 parameters are already in use. Thanks. Theknightwho (talk) 23:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I've granted you template editor rights so you can do it yourself instead. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:46, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Shouldn't Nahuan languages use {{Infobox language family}} and |childN= instead, and leave the ISO codes to the individual language pages (which already have them)? Kanguole 18:51, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@Kanguole Quite possibly, but it turns out Malay language goes up to 37, so the increase was still needed anyway.

@Pppery Thanks for that - I've implemented the change (and have added the same limit for dialects, too, since at least one page was exceeding the old limit). This should probably be Lua-fied at some point, as no doubt another arbitrary increase will eventually be needed. Theknightwho (talk) 22:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposal for new parameter to include audio/video recording depicting a language

I want to propose a new optional parameter called recording that could allow audio/video recordings. We now have such recordings on Commons of native speakers speaking their languages. These add encyclopedic value to an article depicting variants, accents, intonations, syntaxes and even gender-based variations which are important linguistic attributes. I'm personally working on a project to bring language media from CC-licensed documentaries. Some examples are Kusunda and Baleswari. However, there is no convention on inserting a recording in a proper format. So, a range of nonstandard approaches exist. The infobox parameter I'm proposing should be limited to audio and video only since a separate image parameter exists for images depicting the language. It's worth noting that images are of no use to depict languages with no writing systems (oral languages). This parameter can be called "recorded_media" allowing available audio/video on Commons and include within the infobox a supporting parameter called "recorded_media_depicts" (or "recorded_media_description") letting the uploader include what the media depicts. For brevity, those two should be enough. Psubhashish (talk) 17:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

It's easy to add videos, recordings or images to an article (see for instance: Levantine Arabic). I don't see the point of adding this to the infobox. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

By that logic, there should be no parameter for image or native name. It's not about the "possibility" but keeping some of the very crucial information packaged in the infobox, encouraging editors to add recordings. --Psubhashish (talk) 19:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes for "very crucial information" (number of speakers, language family, location, etc.) but a random recording chosen subjectively and arbitrarily is not "very crucial information". For instance, which accent/register/dialect will you choose to represent the language? What will they talk about? If we had something like article first of the declaration of human rights in all languages, then why not add this below for people to "experience" the language. But still, I don't think the infobox is made for that. Has any other Misplaced Pages edition done that? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:21, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Is using term "Country"/"Countries is more correct instead of "Native to"

I found that term "Native to" is not that term used for ancestral homeland of language, and currently instead used this term as dominant countries/nations (the country or nation where this language is spoken and centralized worldwide).

It could be changed term from "Native to", replacing word with "Countries"/"Country" while keeping same function and is more correct.

When a single country or nation is displayed, it could be written as "Country". When two or more countries displayed in infobox (separated by comma ,), it will display as "Countries", unless it bypassed by using wikitext/HTML codes , , ,. If using these HTML codes, it can allow two or more nations to appear as "Countries".

Term "Native to" could be used for ancestral homelands of the language (that is currently is row "Region") 217.113.21.9 (talk) 06:58, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Plain lists in refs

The /refs subtemplate generates lists of refs using line breaks. This is deprecated for accessibility reasons in favour of real lists such as {{plainlist}}. In the sandbox I've used wiki bulleted lists instead. I'm not sure how to test this properly - tbh I don't understand how the infobox uses it, which is why I asked for someone else to do it in the first place! It's not as straightforward as putting a test case in Template:Infobox language/testcases because the infobox's sandbox doesn't use the sandbox version of the subtemplate. My attempts at testcases for the subtemplate directly (based on Armenian language) didn't work. Hairy Dude (talk) 17:50, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Edit request 17 December 2024

This edit request to Template:Infobox language/family-color has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I would like to change the color of the Penutian family in Template:Infobox language/family-color, to make it more distinctive from the Na-Dene languages.

Diff:

−

~~#92d1e3~~

#6bc4de

🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 02:36, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, change the Pano-Tacanan color to include white text to make it more visible. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 23:28, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Done Primefac (talk) 20:44, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Edit request 19 December 2024

I pressed many links of this, I see that original list (even in Wayback Machine archive), these links are dead and it seen as error screen that is moved to GitHub Multitree.

https://github.com/linguistlist/multitree 217.113.21.9 (talk) 06:06, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

What are you trying to accomplish? 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 02:18, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I think the point is that the pages pointed by |linglist= are dead, so the parameter should be removed, or at least no longer generate a link. Most (all?) of these codes are redundant to |iso3= anyway. Kanguole 17:46, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

There are two situations here. One, ISO codes where LingList is the ISO governing authority for the code. The ISO page provides a link to Ethnologue that doesn't go anywhere; Ethnologue won't actually have a page for that language. The question here is how we handle a recognized authority when that authority is defunct / no longer online.

The second are ISO codes in the private-use range , as well as private non-ISO codes with digits in them. Because such codes are not universal, and have no utility outside LingList, I don't see any point to keeping them. Glottolog will often cover the lect, and in such cases that link is often a more than adequate replacement.

IMO, we should keep the LingList label in case 1 until ISO provides a new authority for them, at which point we can remove the LingList coding from the infobox template. If we can't link them to anything useful, we should remove the link coding from this template; we can always restore it if something becomes available.

We should remove any surviving links in case 2 now. — kwami (talk) 19:38, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

LingList was the source of several ISO 639-3 codes, but doesn't seem to have any continuing role. The ISO 639 Maintenance Agency is now reachable via iso639-3@sil.org. Kanguole 21:01, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

AFAIK, ISO only maintains the codes, names and aliases. They don't maintain definitions of those codes/names. For most codes, Ethnologue maintains that information, but for most languages extinct before 1950, it was LingList that did so. Now that the LingList project is defunct, it doesn't appear that anyone does. Ethnologue hasn't picked up the slack. — kwami (talk) 21:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Edit request 5 January 2025

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Could we change the text color for Pano-Tacanan and Macro-Je please? they are barely visible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZKevinTheCat (talk • contribs) 05:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Nardog (talk) 02:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 5 January 2025

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Can someone please add the {{subst:tfm|Infobox proto-language}} tag to this template so I can nominate it for merging with {{Infobox proto-language}}. I've already added it to that template just now because it's not currently protected. PK2 (talk; contributions) 09:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Done. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 05:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

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