| Revision as of 00:24, 12 January 2010 editRyanGFilm (talk | contribs)564 edits →Educating RyanGFilm on policy: Re-incorporated discussion into correct section.← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 17:20, 10 November 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,305,207 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Saoirse Ronan/Archive 1) (bot |
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== copyvio == |
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I deleted the link to Image:Saoirse in premiere of Atonement.jpg bewcause that image belongs to ] according to the image ]. ] (]) 09:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC) |
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== More information == |
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There should be more information about her. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== American-born Irish actress == |
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She is an American born actress, but this doesn't mean she holds American citizenship and therefore it is unnecessary to say she is "an American-born Irish actress" it is misleading because she is Irish and in no way an American having lived the majority of her life in Ireland born to two Irish parents. It is of course expanded upon in her personal and in the side info box that she was born in New York. There is no need to state this three times on the same page unless she actually refers to herself as American-born Irish we are adding superfluous details. |
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] (]) 15:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC) |
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== "Became British" == |
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The article is talking about a technical classification, used for the purposes of that award, it's not actually saying she "became British", as the IP is trying to insert. If we determine that this is notable enough for the article, a much better explanation needs to be given. Also, I accidentally clicked "rollback" instead of "undo" when I was looking at the history. If anyone has a problem with that, I'll self-revert, and then use undo and provide an edit summary. ]] 05:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC) |
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== She is American == |
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According to United States law, a person born in the U.S. is automatically a U.S. citizen. She was raised in Ireland, yes, but she is American by birth. In order to be considered Irish, she would have had to been born in Ireland. If anyone wants to continue to dispute this then please contact an admin for mediation. ] (]) 03:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC) |
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*Sorry, that's not how it works. She self-identifies as Irish, and she was raised in Ireland, she's Irish. You don't just get to make decrees about "contacting an admin for mediation", whatever that means. ]] 04:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC) |
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**When there is constant editing of a single piece of information in an article, POLICY STATES that an admin is to be contacted for mediation.] (]) 00:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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***Policy "states" no such thing. Administrators have no more authority to mediate disputes than non-admins. ]] 02:57, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:Someone hasn't been doing their homework. Admins have much more power than regular editors do. If an agreed consensus cannot be reached concerning the issue at hand then the ] will be asked to intervene. Please keep in mind that three reverts in less than 24 hours is considered an edit war and the party that is considered to be in the wrong is either issued a warning, or blocked by an administrator. ]. ] (]) 09:40, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::You really have no clue at all how things work here, if you truly believe that "admins have much more power than regular editors do." ]] 18:17, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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== RfC: Determining Actress as Being Irish or American == |
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{{rfctag|bio}} |
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There have been many edits on this page concerning the actress's nationality. She was born in the U.S. which makes her a born U.S. Citizen, however she was raised in Ireland. This has caused dispute as to whether she's American, or Irish. ] (]) 00:33, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:Does she hold a dual-citizenship? If not, then she should be listed as an American in the opening paragraph. I get this from ] which encourages the country of one's citizenship to be used. ''']]]''' 00:54, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::I could not find any information concerning a dual citizenship, however I think it's safe to say that she maintains dual citizenship since she grew up in Ireland and has lived there since she was 3. ] (]) 01:57, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''No. Just no.''' Both her parents are Irish, she self-identifies as Irish, and she's lived in Ireland since she was three years old. She's Irish. ]] 02:55, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:You've already voiced your opinion, Unitanode, thank you. ] (]) 09:24, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::As have you, yours. I'll thank you to keep your snarkiness to yourself. Commenting above doesn't preclude me from commenting on this RFC. ]] 18:15, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::::Well when an elitist who clearly doesn't want to discuss an issue posts a close-ended statement where there is meant to be open-minded discussion, all I can say is what I stated above. I wasn't being snarky. I was simply rebounding your close-mindedness. If you want to actually discuss this then by all means post your opinion as opinion and not fact. Then we can talk. Otherwise, your comments have no place in this discussion. ] (]) 01:47, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::That's what We've been trying to tell you, RyanGFilm. It's not ''about'' "opinions" here, it'a about facts. And your facts are blatantly, obviously, and obtusely wrong. Sometimes discussions ''are'' matters of opinion. This isn't one of them. You are simply wrong here. And I won't play coy, and pretend otherwise, just to make you feel better about it. ]] 14:10, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::Why don't we say "American born Irish actress" or something. Then the reader will understand the complexities and can decide for themselves. It looks like her acting happened mostly, or at least originally, in Ireland or the UK. - ] (]) (]) 17:15, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:Verifiability trumps all; on that note, Ronan has indeed stated that she is Irish in several published interviews (such as ), whereas never having stated or claimed that she has U.S. nationality or is an American. Simply because she was born in the United States would not automatically make her an American (her parents might not have pursued citizenship or an American passport for her): as that would be an unsubstantiated claim based on one's ], which has no place on Misplaced Pages and certainly not on a ]. ···]<sup>] · <small>] </small></sup> 19:22, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::This has been my point all along: verifiability. And it seemed a bit nonsensical to insist on putting "American" as a descriptor of a clearly Irish girl. ]] 19:31, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:She is Irish. She states she is 100% Irish in an interview on American TV in this YouTube clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM3YcOmFRyE . Around the 4min 50seconds time frame.] (]) 23:45, 9 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::YouTube is not a verifiable source according to Misplaced Pages policy. On another note - on Nicole Kidman's wiki article it lists her as "an American-born Australian Actress". Wouldn't it be much easier to list Saoirse likewise? That would be a great compromise as well as being an accurate statement. Then no one can claim foul. ] (]) 01:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::I only linked to that clip as it was Saoirse herself stating that she's 100% Irish, but point taken on YouTube.] (]) 02:33, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::Also in this article she refers to herself as Irish, not American http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/movieawards/oscars/2008-02-11-saoirse-ronan_N.htm . ] (]) 03:02, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::Yeah, but celebs aren't verifiable either, according to Wiki policy. They can be quoted, but when it comes down to facts, they cannot be referenced. Ethnically she is 100% Irish. We're talking about her nationality. ] (]) 05:28, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::Her nationality is Irish. She had Irish citizenship at birth due to being born to Irish parents. - ] (]) 12:16, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::I see this as being a dispute over ethnicity and nationality. I don't think anyone denies that she is of Irish ethnicity, but it is her nationality that is in question. For example, her parents being Irish has nothing to do with her nationality because it is a purely ethnic claim. Ethnicity /= nationality. The MOS that I linked above states that nationality should be described in an article, and ethnicity only if it is relevant to the article's subject (I don't know much about this person, but from the discussion here I'm guessing it is). This would lead a solution such as Peregrine Fisher described above ideal, something such as "American born actress of Irish ethnicity". ''']]]''' 00:23, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::This has been my point, but others just don't get it. When you're born here in the U.S. you automatically get citizenship. It's not something you have to pursue. ] (]) 01:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::A person is an Irish citizen if, at the time of his or her birth, at least one of his or her parents was an Irish citizen. It's automatic. This coupled with the fact that she identifies with being soley Irish, lives in Ireland, grew up in Ireland, goes to school in Ireland etc, I therefore think it's misleading to try and claim her as American on a technicality of birth.] (]) 02:33, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::What about "American born Irish actress" - ] (]) (]) 02:36, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::::Her place of birth is already stated in the article. She is an Irish actress and adding "American born" is superfluous.] (]) 02:58, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::Just trying to find a compromise that everyone can live with, but whatever. - ] (]) (]) 05:05, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::@Hammertime2009 - It may be superfluous, but looking back in the edit history, it's been an issue with editors so I think it would be best to correct this issue as to avoid any possible future editing wars. ] (]) 05:28, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::If editors are confused, readers are probably as well. We should just be explicit and explain it all in the first or second sentence. - ] (]) (]) 05:33, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::::The only people who are "confused" are those (few) who are trying to push "American" into the lead. There's no controversy here. Simply being born in a country doesn't make you "American." She self-identifies as Irish, reliable sources call her Irish, there's no controversy, except in RyanGFilm's mind. ]] 05:44, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Because you think it's simple does not make it so. She is an American citizen, unless somehow she isn't. - ] (]) (]) 05:48, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::::::That is incorrect, Unitanode. I am not the only editor who has changed it. As I said before, being that you're so ], you probably shouldn't post in this discussion. A piece of information in the article has caused several edits and reverts and I am trying to find a compromise to end this issue whereas you refuse to discuss it and only want what you want to be in the article. Once again, if you are born in America, you are automatically granted citizenship. You might also want to check out this little bit of ]. As to your references to her comments about her ethnicity, Misplaced Pages policy states that the subject of a Misplaced Pages Biographical article is not a reliable source, therefore non-referential. ] (]) 05:56, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::You really need to stop quoting policy until you actually know what the hell it actually says. If a living person self-identifies as a given race, ethnicity, or whatever, that's what they are. Period. Especially when the reliable sources ''also'' say she is that which she self-identifies as. This is the same damn argument that the POV-pushers tried to use to get the words "black" and "African-American" ''out'' of the Obama articles. It's a losing argument, and accusing me of article ownership of this article (a completely inane, and wholly unsupportable accusation) is a non-starter as well. I've made very few edits to this article, and simply reverting your attempts to force the word "American" in as a descriptor of an Irish actress doesn't qualify as "ownership", except in the most deluded of worlds. ]] 06:17, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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Since there's no doubt how she identifies her own nationality, and it's neither self-serving, nor is the article primarily based on such sources, please desist from the absurd claim that you have "policy" on your side. You don't. ]] 06:27, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:You need to calm down. You are taking this personally and this is not personal. I am trying to rectify a confusing bit of information on an article and you are taking offense to it. Don't. Like it says in the policy I sent to you it states "If you do not want your ideas (for article organization, categorization, style, standards, etc.) challenged or developed by others, then do not submit them." That is why I sent it to you, so your claim that I made an "inane, and wholly unsupportable accusation" is an inane and wholly unsupportable accusation. I also sent it to you because you are the one saying "It's my way, PERIOD," rather than actually discussing something. Again - you are right about her ethnicity. I am not arguing that. I am arguing her nationality and have offered compromises that other editors seem to agree with. Except yourself. Misplaced Pages is not a place to have an ego. ] you will find the policy that states that "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." So it does need to reference her American citizenship (being that that is her nationality) in the opening paragraph and being that she has lived most her life in Ireland and became famous while maintaining citizenship there, her Irish ethnicity should be noted as well. So not only do other editors agree that her American citizenship be recognized in the opening paragraph, but so does policy. Looks like I DO have policy on my side. |
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In terms of the policy I stated that said that the subjects are not reliable sources, an editor had directed me to that policy a while ago and it must have changed. My apologies for not double checking that. ] (]) 10:04, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::RyanGFilm, you're making yourself look foolish. I've not "taken this personally" at all. Pointing out your blatant errors and silliness doesn't mean I'm taking it personally. I've pointed out to you that your assertions about what "policy" states are completely wrong. I've demonstrated, without question, that you have no idea what you're talking about, when you say we can't use the girl herself as a source for her nationality, and yet, you continue to make those assertions. She is not "American", any more than a child born to American parents, who happen to be living in, say, Ireland, for a few years is "Irish." You don't know what you're talking about, and that's all there is to it. As to whether ''anything'' should be mentioned about her Irish nationality is a wholly separate argument. If you want to discuss that, we can. But right now, you're attempting to prove she's American, when she's obviously not, so how about sticking to that absurd premise for now? ]] 14:07, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::She is an Irish national as it was aquired at birth due to being born to Irish parents. She has never asserted American citizenship or claimed it in any known article or medium. The fact that she was born in New York is mentioned in the article for all to see. Nobody is hiding that fact. According to the Policy quoted above "previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." She became famous as an Irish actress, not an American one. She was a 3year old when she left New York. Hardly notable and to presume that she is an American citizen because she was born there would be original research, IMO, especially as she and other sources have stated she is Irish. - ] (]) 12:10, 10 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:Her country of birth is relevant to her notability because she became famous making American movies. ] (]) 01:27, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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If she was born to both Irish parents, lives in Ireland, goes to school in Ireland, states clearly and publicly in interviews that she is Irish, but just HAPPENS to have been born in America, does not mean she is American. |
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I'm irish, have both Irish parents, go to school in Ireland and state that I am Irish, but I just HAPPEN to be born in London <countless Irish people have been born abroad, patricularly since the 70's>, I am still 100% Irish and have an Irish citizenship but not an English one, or can I claim to be English <nor do I want to>. |
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This seems to be a case of one person, RyanGFilm, being too stubborn and closed minded to admit that not every talented person alive is American. |
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And I dont really know why I bothered getting into this, but if all we have to do all day is sit at our computers getting into petty arguements with people we dont know, then were all rather sad. - ] <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:45, 10 January 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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P.S. when she accepts her award for best actress, she'll surely mention how shes Irish. - ] <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:51, 10 January 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:To think that I'm trying to force the "American" title on her because she's talented is completely ignorant. American law states that anyone born in the United States is automatically a citizen. She was an American citizen FIRST. The policy I stated says that that is to be included. Country of birth is to be included in the first paragraph. ] (]) 00:34, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::How was she an American citizen first? Irish citizenship is granted automatically at birth. The policy states "previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Since she has never asserted American citizenship nor claimed to be American it is misleading to try and label her as such. The fact that she was born in New York is explained in the article. She became famous as an IRISH actress and always refers to her self as Irish in any interview. - ] (]) 01:21, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:As I just stated above, her country of birth IS relevant to her notability because she became famous making AMERICAN movies. I still don't see why "American-born Irish Actress" still isn't acceptable. Policy supports it and it was also a dispute resolution on Nicole Kidman's page.] (]) 01:29, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::She became famous making American movies as an IRISH actress. The article already mentions her place of birth. She asserts her Irish nationality consistently. She makes no such claims on American citizenship. For all we know she could have renounced any American citizenship she may have possessed but we can't say for sure as we don't know. What we do know is that she is an Irish citizen and identifies as such so this should be enough. Once again, her place of birth is mentioned in the article. - ] (]) 01:56, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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*RyanGFilm, you're wrong. The only person who's come even ''close'' to agreeing with you is Peregrine, and that was only in the interest of finding a compromise. No compromise is necessary here, however, because you're clearly, unequivocally, and without question, wrong. Please let it go now. ]] 02:02, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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Don't forget about ThemFromSpace. He pointed out the same policy as I did. And instead of just saying that I'm wrong, why don't you actually prove it? I have stated policy which states that the nation of birth needs to be included in the first paragraph if it is relevant to her notability. It is since she is notable due to making American movies. ] (]) 02:10, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::As for Themfromspace, it appears that he might simply have a misunderstanding of the basic facts, based upon your gross misrepresentation of them. You have an agenda here, and you're trying to push it. There's no place for it, and I'm frankly quite sick of dealing with it. It's been pointed out to you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that policy doesn't say what you claim it says. I even posted the closest thing to what you might be referring to, and proved categorically that you are either willfully misrepresenting policy, or completely ignorant of what it says. You need to stop now. ]] 05:23, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:I've reported this to the Mediation Cabal, so let's see what the Mediator says.] (]) 02:17, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::RyanGFilm, there's nothing to "mediate." You want an inaccurate descriptor entered in the lede. No one agreed with you after you requested comments. I won't agree to any mediation, because there's nothing here to mediate. Consensus, as well as the facts, are against you here. Let it go. ]] 05:14, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::She became famous acting in a British movie. Atonement was a British film. After this she started acting in American movies. Her place of birth is mentioned in the article. Her nationality is Irish. Saoirse herself confirms this along with most other sources. The fact that she was born in New York is a footnote not a defining factor. - ] (]) 02:22, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:Hammertime, Atonement was not handled by one single country-based company. It was financed by StudioCanal, Relativity Media and Working Title Films. It was distrubuted by Universal Pictures, Focus Features and StudioCanal. Relativit Media, Universal and Focus Features are American companies. 3 out of the 5 companies that made the film are American. As for you, Unitanode, I will no longer interact with you. Not because you disagree with me, but because of how uncivil you are. Hammertime2009 and Kuge disagree with me, but I like them. They disagree while actually discussing it. You refuse discussion altogether and I can only handle talking to a wall for only so long. ] (]) 13:50, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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Hi, it's me again (yay), she actually got her first acting break as Rhiannon Geraghty in the Irish television series The Clinic, on RTE, the Irish broadcaster. Ryan, were both stubborn people, but when theres one of you againsed all of us- like in this arguement, just let it GO! Besides, about the film thing, the only American film thats made her arguably famous is City Of Ember, and that was filmed in Ireland. |
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And I'm sure if the girl was to know about us sad computer nerds arguing passionately about some small detail about her life on the web, she'd be worried. |
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There are so many other things to be doing! - ] <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:15, 11 January 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Kuge, two other people have agreed with me with the previously stated policy, so I'm not all alone. I like your response, nonetheless. Very cool and laid back. ] (]) 13:51, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::I don't care ''who'' you "interact" with. There's no ''point'' in discussing things at length with you, when you insist that things that aren't true (or remotely ''close'' to being true) must go into the article. I've tried to explain to you again and again, why you're off-base, but you're not interested. You want the lede to mention something about her being "American", and she's not American, it's really as simple as that. Frankly, whether you "like" me, or dislike me, I don't give a flying flip. This isn't Myspace or Facebook, so no one is required to "like" anyone else, and "unfriending" isn't an option. On that note, you may want to rethink your userpage. It reads like a Myspace profile, which isn't acceptable. We're editing an encyclopedia, not letting the world know our favorite movies, or trying to convince total strangers that we're "cool." ]] 13:56, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:::I have to agree with Unitanode here. RyanGFilm, you are unable to grasp the concept that she's not American but you seem to want to label her as such due to an accident of birth. As far as we know she may have renounced any American citizenship she MAY have had and probably never had an American passport to begin with. We don't know but you are presuming. This is original research which is invaild. What we do know for a fact is that she is an Irish citizen from birth, born to Irish parents, living in Ireland, going to school in Ireland and self-identifies as Irish. This is not in dispute nor has to be speculated upon. Why do you then want to label her as American? Her place of birth is mentioned in the article. The fact she was born in America has nothing to do with her film career. She didn't get the parts because of her birth so that point is moot. - ] (]) 14:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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::::Once again - the policy states that her country of birth is to be stated if it is relevant to her notability. It is relevant because she is notable having made primarily American movies. I have pointed out that the same exact thing happened to Nicole Kidman and this same exact argument was had on her discussion page and it was determined by a mediator that policy stated that her country of birth needed to be in the first paragraph. I've pointed this out several times. Are you ignoring it, or did you just not see it? Again, it is not an inaccurate statement to have "American-born Irish Actress" in the opening paragraph. ] (]) 00:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC) |
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Thanks, I'm not Kuge though, it's "Kugelsack Ist So In Zis Seazon", I just saw Bruno and loved the way he spoke! And why isn't Peter Jackson on your favourite directors list?! I cant wait for Toy story 3 either! I'd better shut up before a whistleblower stings me for improper use of talk pages or something. P.S. Saoirse Ronan is IRISH! |
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--] (]) 22:29, 11 January 2010 (UTC) |
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:No worries. If you want to have general discussion feel free to head on over to my page and leave me a message :) ] (]) 00:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC) |
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===Educating RyanGFilm on policy=== |
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You seem fond of quoting "policy" that isn't actually policy. The closest I can come for your odd reference above, follows. It's the only thing I could find that might remotely resemble what you claim about "policy" above. I have highlighted portions that perhaps you should note: |
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== Nationality == |
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:'''Using the subject as a self-published source''' |
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::''Further information: ]''<br> |
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:Living persons may write or publish material about themselves, such as through press releases or personal websites. Such material may be used as a source only if: |
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:*'''it is not unduly self-serving;''' |
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:*it does not involve claims about third parties or unrelated events; |
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:*'''there is no reasonable doubt that the subject actually authored it;''' |
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:*'''the article is not based primarily on such sources.''' |
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According to MOS:BIRTHPLACE, the place where one was born is irrelevant if they weren't raised there, especially if their family comes from a different country (Ronan's parents are Irish). Therefore, having American-born Irish is basically the same as having French-born English in Emma Watson's article. ] (]) 14:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:These provisions do not apply to autobiographies published by reliable third-party publishing houses; these are treated as reliable sources, because they are not self-published. |
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:Apples to oranges. Per ], the nationality in the first sentence of the opening paragraph is part of the "Context" --- "Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable." Ronan was born in the United States and her notability stems from acting primarily in American and British cinema, while despite Watson's birth in France, she does not act in French cinema and her notability does not stem from anything related to France. Additionally, Ronan's birth in the United States granted her US citizenship, Watson's birth in France did not grant her French citizenship per ] and she has also stated she only speaks some French. This all points to the context being quite different for Ronan as compared to Watson, and explains the discrepancy in why Ronan's US birth is mentioned and Watson's French birth is not. ] also does not say what you are claiming it says regardless, but is additionally not about nationality tags in opening paragraphs. ] }</b>]] 15:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC) |
According to MOS:BIRTHPLACE, the place where one was born is irrelevant if they weren't raised there, especially if their family comes from a different country (Ronan's parents are Irish). Therefore, having American-born Irish is basically the same as having French-born English in Emma Watson's article. Drzejstan (talk) 14:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
