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| As this page concerns INCIDENTS:U | |||
| == Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from ] == | |||
| Place the PAGENAME of the incident in the header. | |||
| {{atop|status=NO CONSENSUS|result={{NAC}} I see that this discussion has pretty much brought us nowhere. Both {{u|DarwIn}} and {{u|Skyshifter}} have presented serious concerns about each other, with Skyshifter saying that DarwIn is a "known transphobic" who keeps harassing her across multiple wikis, and {{u|DarwIn}} claiming that these are frivolous allegations, and that Skyshifter is simply throwing around the word "transphobic". Both sides had equally convincing arguments, and when it came down to the final proposal, in which DarwIn would receive a ] on ] and a one-way IBAN with Skyshifter, and it was fairly split (58% support, 42% oppose), however DarwIn voluntarily IBANed himself. I don't think we are going to get a consensus anytime soon, and the discussion overall is just straight up confusing. If anyone feels like this was a bad close, I would highly suggest opening a new discussion that would have a more straightforward purpose. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ], a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use <nowiki>{{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~</nowiki> on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --] (]) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics ( and ), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is , again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute. | |||
| ::Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --] (]) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally and , despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, . I asked him to , but . | |||
| ::::I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already , the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please.] ] 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. ] ] 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::And here's explicit transphobia. It's her '''daughter''', no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Otherwise, if the notice is about the actions of an individual across several pages, then place the USERNAME of the individual in the header. | |||
| *:*'''Comment''' I would suggest Darwin review ]. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. ] (]) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ---------------------------------------------------------- | |||
| *:*:@] I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? ] ] 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Do not place links in the section headers. | |||
| *:*::@], the bottom line is that ''you don't get to question that.'' As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is '''not''' the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them ''any'' good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. ] (]) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| (Immediately UNDER the header is preferred). | |||
| *:*:::I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. ] ] 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ---------------------------------------------------------- | |||
| *:*::::We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this ] (]) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Entries may be refactored based on the above. | |||
| *:*:The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read ]' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ---------------------------------------------------------- | |||
| *:*::I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. ] (]) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ---------------------------------------------------------- | |||
| *:*:::Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. ] ] 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| --> | |||
| *:*::::Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including ]) - otherwise you will be blocked. ]] 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. ] ] 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here. | |||
| *:*::::::Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there. | |||
| *:*::::::And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the ] area.] (]) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::I would suggest a '''topic ban''' is imposed. ]] 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::I would '''support''' a topic ban from ]. ] (]) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. ] (]) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. ]] 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? ] ] 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. ]] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. ] ] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::@] nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. ] ] 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. ] (]) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. ] ] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::You fundementally misunderstand the scope of ] and the concept of topic area as well. ] (]) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. ] ] 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::::I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. ] (]) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::::it was a collective you. ] ] 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::::::The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. ] (]) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. ] (]) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::None of this is relevant. We follow sources and ]. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. ]] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've continued to post where? ] ] 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? ] ] 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? ]] 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have ], and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -] (]) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. ] ] 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -] (]) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? ] ] 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] This one. -] (]) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@] I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. ] ] 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::@] Easiest way to defuse this is to post a '''bolded''' and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -] (]) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" ] ] 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. ]] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? ] (]) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. ] ] 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? ] (]) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. ] ] 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? ] (]) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 ] ] 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. ] (]) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. ] ] 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around ] (]) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::@] no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? ] ] 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::Because of edits like this . ] (]) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? ] ] 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? ] (]) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? ] ] 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. ] (]) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::::I ''answered'' a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. ] ] 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::::Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. ] (]) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::::::I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. ] ] 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::::::In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. ] (]) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. ] (]) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Noleander redux == | |||
| :Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway.] ] 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Noleander is back, and continuing his previous disturbing behavior. If you'll recall, in the past he created articles promoting antisemitic conspiracy theories, which were eventually deleted: | |||
| :I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it.]] 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Misuse_of_antisemitic_accusations | |||
| ::@] I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. ] ] 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Controversies_related_to_prevalence_of_Jews_in_leadership_roles_in_Hollywood | |||
| :::Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary ], broadly construed, as in effect.]] 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@] yes, that's correct. ] ] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about ] in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? ] ] 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::@] You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me ''in the English Misplaced Pages?'' ] ] 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::@] Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? ] ] 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Would recommend that Darwin ''walk away'' from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. ] (]) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| His activities prompted a lengthy AN/I thread, http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive572#User:Noleander | |||
| in which he quite plainly stated While that AN/I thread was in progress, he disappeared for 3 months. Since his return to regular editing two weeks ago, however, he is doing much the same, albeit with more subtlety. | |||
| ;Clarification | |||
| His first actions were to add three new antisemitic conspiracy theories to the Antisemitic canards article, that Jews control the media, Hollywood, and global finance: While this may seem innocuous enough, he then focused on adding to the ] any Jews who were senior members of Financial firms, media owners, or heads of Hollywood studios: an eye-winking way of saying "we don't believe this canard that a Jewish cabal controls all this stuff, it's just that there happen to be so many Jews in senior roles here". Prominent in the "Finance & Trading" section were fairly notorious Jews ], ], ], ] and ]. For good measure, he threw in a "Pornography" section. Now, he may claim that he just happened to be adding names that he came across while reading J.J. Goldberg's ''Jewish Power'' (1996). | |||
| *Hello @] - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in ], to the point of eventually here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much. | |||
| This, however, is not the case. In fact, he has had to do Google Books searches for specific names, in order to prove they were Jews; a variety of sources including | |||
| *As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ], which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that. | |||
| * Shapiro, Edward (1995). ''A Time for Healing: American Jewry Since World War II'' | |||
| *The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here. | |||
| * Shay, Scott (2007). ''Getting our groove back'' | |||
| *Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on ] and ] or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan. | |||
| * Harlan, Stephan (2008). ''Encyclopedia of American Jewish history, Volume 1'' | |||
| *And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. ] ] 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * Strober, Deborah (2009). ''Catastrophe: The Story of Bernard L. Madoff, the Man Who Swindled the World'' | |||
| * Abigail Pogrebin. ''Stars of David (book): Prominent Jews Talk About Being Jewish'' | |||
| * Amman, Daniel (2009). ''The King of Oil'' | |||
| * Maisel, Louis (2001). ''Jews in American politics'' | |||
| * Langley, Monica (2004). ''Tearing Down the Walls'' | |||
| * Rosenberg, Hilary (2000). ''The Vulture Investors'' | |||
| etc. | |||
| ===Proposed Community Sanctions=== | |||
| Again, this is not a case of someone coming across a name in a book they were reading, and adding it to the list, but of someone actively searching for proof that specific individuals are Jews, so that they can be added to the List. ], ], ], ], ] etc. do not appear on this list by chance, but rather as part of a campaign of reversing alleged "censorship" "in regards to some topics that reflect negatively on Jews". It is no accident that it is those specific Jews he searches for to add to the list, rather than, say, ], ], ], ], ], ], etc. If they're not controlling world finance or the media/Hollywood, and are not criminals (or are not "pornographers"), then they don't interest Noleander. | |||
| I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this. | |||
| '''Proposed''' DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to ] broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| His other edits have included edit-warring in a section about "Allegations of control of the world's banking system" in the Rothschild article:, adding sections to the "Criticism of Judaism" article and proposing more Also relevant are these recent edits: | |||
| *'''Support''' -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| It appears, as was evident in the previous AN/I discussion, that Oleander edits Misplaced Pages primarily for two reasons; to include negative information about Mormons and Jews. In the past he focused more on Mormons; since the last AN/I discussion however, he has focused more on Jews. Even when the information he provides is arguably relevant, it has to be extensively edited to conform with policy (e.g. , ). While his pretense is that he is only attempting to debunk antisemitic canards, his actions indicate that he is actually attempting to promote them. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 01:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *:I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -] (]) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. ''PS'' - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. ] (]) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support topic ban and IBAN''', both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. ]] 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. Just read through the above and ''good grief''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. ] (]) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. ] (]) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :This seems like one giant bad-faith assumption. I don't see anything wrong with any of these actions, unless one were to put them together and look at it from a conspiracy theorist's point of view. The heart of the original complaints against Noleander's edits were that he created a separate article about an antisemitic canard, rather than contributing to the existing article that lists them. Now you're complaining that he's contributing to existing articles by adding things that properly belong there, merely because you think he's doing it for some devious purpose? This isn't right. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 01:40, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| :::That's actually a fair point. -] (]) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Equazcion, it's admirable that you leap to Noleander's defense yet again; loyalty is a great thing. However, we're not idiots here. I've described essentially all he's done on Misplaced Pages since he returned; tried to subtly promote antisemitic conspiracy theories. Why did he go to the trouble of adding ] etc. to the List of Jewish-American businesspeople? Why that list of Jewish "pornographers"? ] applies here. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 01:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent ] impulse. ] (]) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm loyal to no persons, only ideals. Are you saying Jewish pornographers are somehow inappropriate for the list of successful businesspeople? For what reason? <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 01:53, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| :::::@] You have been misjudging me - It was , actually, if it's worth anything. ] ] 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Please stop pretending this is an issue about a single edit. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 02:04, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the ] area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Suggestion: If you think the list articles have become unbalanced, or something, and there are "better" examples of Jews in big business positions, then add the ones you think are missing. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 01:47, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| :::::::@] OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). ] ] 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::As is obvious, the issue isn't with specific article edits, though some of them are obviously problematic, but with a ''pattern of behavior''. Please don't try to sidetrack. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 01:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::If they weren't before they are now... ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::I see nothing wrong with this pattern. If there are things missing from articles that have been omitted because people find them unpleasant, then I think it's a good thing they're being added. Articles shouldn't artificially lean towards the positive, even for sensitive subjects like Judaism. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 01:53, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| :::Ok, to be clear, I '''oppose''' a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. ] (]) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Again, please stop deflecting. The issue has nothing whatsoever to do with articles "artificially leaning towards the positive". You see nothing wrong with editing Misplaced Pages ''solely'' for the purpose of either promoting negative information about members of an ethnic group, or promoting information intended to support conspiracy theories about that ethnic group? ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 02:02, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Yeah I think it's fine. The "conspiracy theory" aspect id your guess, not exactly apparent. He's inserting the omitted "bad" stuff. The reason he's doing it is a matter of interpretation. You can say "aww come on, it's obvious he's promoting conspiracy theories" all you want, but that's again a bad-fait assumption. I'm not deflecting, I've answered your concern by explaining to you why I think this "pattern" you've identified is not a problem. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 02:05, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| * '''Support''' this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Yes, Equazcion, we know you think "it's fine". You also thought the two deleted articles were "fine"; more than fine. And you think it's fine to edit Misplaced Pages solely for the purpose of denigrating a specific ethnic group. Gotcha. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 02:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. ] ] 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I don't see any reason for this to be at ANI. There's no immediate pressing concern for admin action. Surely ] or similar? <b>]</b> 01:57, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *::Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. ] (]) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This seems to have been the only thing Noleander has focused on recently, which does make it worrying. You might say, "but all that matters is the content," but the content can't be trusted if it's being added by an editor who seems to be overly focused on one POV about one group of people. That means someone has to be constantly checking and balancing it, which isn't fair to other editors. <font color="purple">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font> <font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 01:59, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *:::@] And those were the only ones, and I immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to . You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. ] ] 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I think it's pretty fair. Part of editing the encyclopedia is balancing out each others' POV's. That's part of how articles become NPOV. The fact that a sensitive subject like Judaism is involved is the only reason this issue is at ANI. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 02:02, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| *::::How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::This isn't about a single article, however, such as Judaism. It's about multiple articles, with one editing goal. Or do you, too, share Noleander's view that "that Misplaced Pages is censored in regards to some topics that reflect negatively on Jews"? ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 02:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::@] I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? ] ] 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::But what would you say, Equazcion, of an editor who went around adding the names of terrorists to ], because some terrorists are Muslim and some of those were also businessmen. And when we looked at his contribs, we found that was the only thing he did, and that there was never anything positive added, only the negative. There are BLP implications, there are racism/antisemitism implications, there are SPA implications, not to mention NPOV and NOR. It's just not good editing, however you look at it. <font color="purple">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font> <font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 02:09, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. ] (]) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::(ec)I'm not noleander, nor am I in a cult with him, so stop trying to lump your enemies together with pigeonholes. It's irrelevant that it's not about a single article. There are editors at all these articles who can see if there's a problem with their balance, and respond to it. Maybe you could simply watch them and help balance them out. I'm not sure why we would even make the assumption, though, that this will turn into a problem. If the user is inserting material previously omitted due to it being somehow unpleasant, in order to balance them out, why are we assuming he'll go too far in the other direction? Has he already unfairly slanted any article towards the negative? Which ones? If he hasn't, should we be assuming he will? That would not seem like an assumption of good faith to me. SlimVirgin: All those implications can be dealt with per-incident, if there are any. Right now you're basically only assuming such incidents will occur. I don't think that's what we generally are supposed to do here. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 02:13, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| *:::::::@] I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ ] ] 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? ] (]) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::@] Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? ] ] 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. ] (]) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::@] There was not any "lie", please stop ]. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". ] ] 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. ] (]) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::Darwin has a long history of editing in ] albeit generally less controversially. . ] (]) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::@] That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. ] ] 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::DarwIn ] covers gender ''and'' sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. ] (]) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::@] Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. ] ] 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per Bushranger. ] ] 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. ] (]) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. ] ] 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{Ping|Pppery}} days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. ] (]) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. ] (]) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? ] ] 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::{{replyto|DarwIn}} Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times ], ], ], ], ], ]. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. ] (]) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like ]. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here.] ] 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. ] (]) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. ] ] 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::], I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> | |||
| *:::::::{{Ping|Liz}} Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that.] ] 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::{{reply|DarwIn}} you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. ] (]) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. ] (]) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Support''' - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it. | |||
| :]] 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' - Per GoodDay and Springee. ] (]) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> <small>(he/him; ])</small></span> 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.] (]) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of ] may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer ]. ] (]) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * <s>'''Support''' TBAN/IBAN</s> '''Weak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN''' - ] suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate ] behavior. ] (]) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm not sure about the lists of Jewish people (although adding a "pornography" section is really out of line), but it's ridiculous that he added and . I'm going to block indefinitely, this seems like a very clear case of a disruptive editor. - ] (formerly ]) <sup>]</sup> 02:12, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.] (]) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Okay, what exactly is wrong with those edits that warrants a block, Tbsdy? <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 02:18, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| :::Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. ] (]) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Adding Jewish conspiracy theories to Sept 11th articles is not the right way of editing this encyclopedia. I've reviewed the previous discussion and seen enough contributions to see that we have a disruptive editor on our hands. I would normally be hesitant about this sort of block, but in this case I believe it to be warranted. They clearly know what the norms and policies are of Misplaced Pages, so I think that ignoring them as they have done is totally out of line and shows to me that they aren't willing to abide by them. - ] (formerly ]) <sup>]</sup> 02:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--] (]) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::He appears to have added "Several analysts documented that a motiviation for the attackes was the support of Israel by the United States". Is that a conspiracy theory? I'm pretty sure it's well documented that that was indeed a possible motivation, and he added credible citations. It doesn't even seem offensive. What's the problem? <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 02:24, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| :::::If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. ] (]) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{ec}}The problem is that it's giving undue weight to fringe conspiracy theories. There are thousands of conspiracy theories about September 11th, we don't include them in the article. There is already an article at ] with a ], and in fact ] also has a whole section on this also. He knows this, so he should be editing there, but he isn't so he's being quite disruptive. There are other worrying signs he's got a POV to push, which is OK so long as it isn't disruptive, but in this case it is so therefore I've blocked him indefinitely. - ] (formerly ]) <sup>]</sup> 02:29, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: |
:::::::"A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. ]] 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::::Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. ] (]) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{ec}}Oh brother, do I have egg on my face. I didn't read carefully enough. I'm unblocking. - ] (formerly ]) <sup>]</sup> 02:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::No |
:::::::::No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. ]] 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::::::OK boomer. ] (]) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::{{ec}}Editor is unblocked with my apologies. I will refrain from any further blocks based on this thread, though I reserve the right to comment on his actions on ] and to block in future (obviously with a bit more care than this time). - ] (formerly ]) <sup>]</sup> 02:38, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. ]] 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.] (]) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP ] - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. ] (]) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. ] (]) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ec}} NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of ], and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -] (]) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN. | |||
| :::sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. ] (]) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. ] (]) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour ''there would be no mention of WP:NPA''. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture ''continues'' to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. ] (]) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' as unnecessary given the commitments already given. ]] 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{hat|1=Let's not. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). <small>Edited to include edit conflict comment. ] (]) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC)</small>}} | |||
| ::::I am assuming you haven't spent much time in places ] where religious belief and persons of faith are not infrequently and quite openly subject to ridicule. Racism is a subject upon which society has happily come to more or less full agreement. Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other. I shall refrain from further comment out of deference to WP:FORUM. -] (]) 21:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Fringe ideas get ridiculed at FTN regardless of whether or not they are religious... That so many fringe views are also religious is more a result of the supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual being inherently fringe than any problem with FTN. Religion which is rational and explainable isn't religion any more after all. ] (]) 21:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Thank you for affirming my point. -] (]) 21:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Your point was that "Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other." Right? Like for example the ] or is that not the side you were thinking of? ] (]) 22:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::No. I was thinking of people who regularly insult and ridicule religious belief and those who hold to it. Something which based on your comment, does not seem to be a source of concern to you. That said, this discussion is veering deep into WP:FORUM territory and I am going to move on. Have a good day. -] (]) 22:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I don't think I've ever seen any of those people suggest that trans people are demons, or did you mean demonize in a way other than literally saying that the other side is demonic/satan's minions? Becuase that would be highly ironic... ] (]) 22:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I am reaching the uncomfortable conclusion that you are attempting to be deliberately offensive. And for the record, you are succeeding. Good day. -] (]) 22:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::You weren't aware that a cornerstone of the gender controversy was religious conservatives resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other? Because that is well documented in reliable sources. I don't think you're the one who is supposed to be offended here, you're the one saying what appear to be extremely offensive things and are being asked to clarify what you meant. ] (]) 22:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::{{ec}} I think a significant point here is that while we may tolerate some degree of forumish and offensive comment about gender or race or religions from editors when they are restricted to largely abstract comment or even when they reference other editors, it's far more of a problem when the editors make offensive accusations about living persons especially when these are completely unrelated to any discussion about how to cover something (noting that the editor continued to make the comment even after they had noted how the English wikipedia treats issues). So for example, if someone says a specific religious figure is delusion or lying in relation to how we treat their testimony that might barely be acceptable. When someone just comes out and says it repeatedly for no reason, that's far more of a problem. Especially if the figure is someone barely notable and not notable (as was the case here for one of the individuals each). ] (]) 22:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| {{hat|1=This ''is'' affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}} | |||
| *'''Comment''' This is definitely not the ideal place to discuss the subject since the whole problem originated with pt.wiki, but since the editor came here asking for help (for the right reasons or not), I will draw attention to the case of the admin accused of transphobia. This is not the first time that DarwIn has been singled out due to his comments on the subject (he has already given several examples of this here), but there is an where the editor has already been criticized for making such comments. There, they were also celebrating Skyshifter's ban (DarwIn commented something like "as a man he was 100%, after transitioning he became unbearable" to refer to her). As much as they try not to link the group to the project, to use this chat you need to associate your Misplaced Pages credentials, so I am concerned that pt.wiki admins could be seen spreading speeches against minorities in an official space of the project, since Misplaced Pages is the target of attacks for investing in equity and diversity. In addition to this comment, the admin was also extremely rude and crude towards a ]. | |||
| :Again, this is not the ideal place to comment on these issues, but I suggest that the case be submitted to Wikimedia if any intervention or something more incisive is necessary. The local community can accuse me of anything for writing these words, but I am concerned about the escalation of editorial harassment within that space. | |||
| : I don't know if he should be blocked, but there's a very clear pattern of edits. And it isn't pretty. The Jewish pornographers seems to be the most blatant. Many of these edits by themselves look innocuous but the overall pattern seems like he is pushing an anti-Semitic agenda. ] (]) 03:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think none of us agree with "Noleander's view that "that Misplaced Pages is censored in regards to some topics that reflect negatively on Jews"? ' We therefore should wish to make certain that we never do anything of the kind. ''']''' (]) 04:42, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Misplaced Pages blacklisted some sites because they are critical to Misplaced Pages. I hope you are not suggesting that Misplaced Pages should become yet another anti-Semitic site just because somebody adds anti-Semitic garbage to the articles, and claims censorship, if he is not allowed to do it.--] (]) 15:39, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No, but nor should Misplaced Pages refrain from featuring verifiable (not rumoured, speculated, or "well, everybody knows that") facts (not gossip, folk myth or urban legend), just because they are about Jews, Irish, Chicanos, Phonecians, Hittites etc ] (]) 22:32, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::But since that's not what has happened in this case, it's difficult to understand why you make that point. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 01:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Merely suspecting an editor of being racist or having an agenda should never be grounds for a block. If and when there's good evidence of POV problems or disruptive editing, try talking to Noleander about it, and then go to dispute resolution if that doesn't work. Taking him to ANI now for these edits is OTT. ]<span style="background-color:white; color:grey;">&</span>] 06:09, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have no idea if Noleander is racist, nor do I care, because it is entirely irrelevant to my point, and to Misplaced Pages. All I care about is a pattern of edits, and a stated goal. Noleander edits Misplaced Pages primarily for the purpose of making Jews look bad. That's disruptive, and wouldn't be tolerated if he did it in relation to other minorities. Good evidence of the problem has already been presented, and there have already been two AN/I threads about it. Keep in mind, it's only two week since he returned to editing; in effect, the problem never really went away, it's just that Noleander didn't edit for a long while. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 01:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ===Arbitrary break 1=== | |||
| :PS: The editor was mocking this discussion in the Telegram group while I was writing this. ] (]) 01:57, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Apologies for the delay: my account was blocked for awhile. Apparently some admin blocked me by accident, then tried to unblock me but failed. I'd complain, but it's hard to get angry when admins are unpaid volunteers :-) We all make mistakes. | |||
| ::Came back after a month with no edits for this? It's quite clear Jardel is taking something personal with DarwIn here. Or he doesn't have anything to do at the moment. And he didn't have such great writing and narrative in his mother tongue, now is writing perfect, well written English. That gets stranger considering he's partially blocked in ptwiki for some beefing with other editors (] in portuguese)... Quite strange, to say the least. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::And yes, by "quite strange" I am talking about maybe ]. Nobody comes after a month without edits (that was preeceded by some other months before some 5-ish edits), to make an "accusation" based on unfounded arguments, especially after being blocked precisely for beefing and attacking other members of the community in his homewiki. Such a hypocrisy, a user banned for beefing accusating another user of attacks and using the word "transphobia" so vaguely. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I expected, the group participants started making accusations against me (that's why Eduardo G. appeared in this discussion) and wanted to insinuate that Skyshifter is writing this text, perhaps wanting to provoke some kind of retaliation later. First, I appreciate the compliments on my writing, which was 100% done by Google Translate; I think Google's engineering is to be congratulated. Second, I'm only here on this page because I noticed the links to this discussion in the Telegram group itself and decided to contribute with what I've been reading for a long time with great disgust. I didn't need to bring much, Darwin himself made a point of making abject comments in this discussion, but if you want, I can bring some screenshots of what they were talking about in the group. Third, I did go 1 month without editing here because my focus is not on en.wiki but on pt.wiki, where I make regular edits. I find it strange that you entered this discussion without refuting any of the arguments above, thinking that bringing up my tarnished "reputation" changes everything that was written by me or in the group. I believe it must be embarrassing to participate in a group where they are celebrating the sanctions that Skyshifter will suffer (thinking that place is a "private club") while at the same time you from the "public side" to the same editor, simulating virtue. In any case, my goal here is only to reinforce that there is indeed materiality in what Skyshifter said with more evidence and once again I recommend that the discussion be evaluated by the Wikimedia team knowing that attitudes that demonstrate prejudice against minorities go against the project's investments in equity, diversity and equality. ] (]) 03:52, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I will not pursue any retaliation. I'm just stating what I know of this case, and I even supported Sky when the edits were being made. People are celebrating because all of this discussion was brought to even another wiki by her. But I understand you might've written this text, and will not take the subject further. If anybody needs anything, please read the message below. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::So, I don't disagree with your argument about the sanctions she's passing on the other project, unfortunately. As for "not pursue any retaliation", I don't think that's what you mean by the phrase "4 successful DBs in a row is not for everyone." directed at me. ] (]) 04:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] You're wrong, twice. First, it wasn't me saying that. It was NCC-1701, and my user in TG is Edu. And at no point did I agree with NCC's messages. And secondly, the "four DBs in a row" wasn't in anyway directed at you. It was directed to Bageense, who opened 4 block discussions in the last 2 or 3 days and all of them were successfull. You are distorting the messages to condone your erroneous narrative. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Well, if I am "distorting messages" to "tolerate" my narrative, anyone who wants to evaluate can join the group and read the messages posted there or see the pt.wiki discussion against the Projeto Mais Teoria da História na Wiki and talk to its ] to see what their opinion is on the matter. I may not be a perfect person, but what I see with great displeasure (coming from those who are "in charge of the gears") is not positive for the project. ] (]) 04:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Joining the group the community would then have no doubts about your intents and distortion of facts. You didn't deny the two things I said above — you know I'm right, you can't bend the facts this much. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| '''As a ptwiki user''' that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage ()/], thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the ] <small>(in portuguese)</small>. The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it. | |||
| Regarding Jayjg's complaint: this is about 3 things: Content, Content, and Content. Jayjg is unhappy with additions I have proposed to the articles ], ], and ]. | |||
| This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone. | |||
| Rather than continue the dialog on the Talk pages (and, yes, there was on-going dialog on all those Talk pages: Ive never made any significant change without discusson on Talk pages first), Jayjg decided to throw up another "intimidation via ANI" smokescreen. And so here we are. | |||
| I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my ] (). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| In the last ANI, I explained why Im interested in criticism of religion. So I won't repeat those details. But it is the topic Im interested in, and I'll continue editing there. Unfortunately, articles on religion tend to be very controversial, so I'm used to being called anti-mormon, anti-catholic, anti-semitic. I'm not of course - although the notable sources such as ], ], and ] may be. But the distinction between editor and source is deliberately blurred by Jayjg. | |||
| JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community . And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. ] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| One of these days, someone will address the issue of censorship in the religion articles, or maybe "systematic bias" is a more accurate description of the problem? A few months ago, I brought up the systematic bias issue, expecting some Misplaced Pages sage to actually step in and do something, but it is dawning on me that there is no sage :-) (Although there was one editor, ], who was rational and objective ... whoever he is: props to him!). | |||
| :It is pretty clear thay the intents of Jardel here are disruptive. Your comment hopefully leaves no doubt to the community. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:53, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :As I said above, I am not a perfect person. I may have used foul language to address some editors in a moment of anger, but I felt vulnerable and hurt by editors I held in high regard, and I apologize for what I wrote in the past. Likewise, I do not think it is right that a social channel that is reported as "linked to Misplaced Pages" is being used as a bar where people can say whatever they want, especially when it comes to prejudiced comments against minorities. At no time did I label all of them, only one of them demonstrated that she was doing so. If I happen to receive any sanction for this discussion, and knowing that bringing issues from pt.wiki here is not ideal, I will receive it for doing the right thing, because I want something to change for the better in a project that I have dedicated so much time to contributing to. I may be prevented from editing on Misplaced Pages, but if what I bring here helps to change something, I will be happy. ] (]) 05:01, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| :] - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? ] ] 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. ] (]) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, . Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. ] (]) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. ] (]) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Supporting both IBAN and TBAN'''. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--] ] 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. ] (]) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.] (]) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. ] (]) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.] (]) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain. | |||
| :::::concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.] (]) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.] (]) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. ] (]) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Children cannot consent, their parents can. ] ]<sup>]</sup> 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--] (]) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? ] (]) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--] (]) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. ] (]) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support TBAN''', no comment on IBAN. . ] ]<sup>]</sup> 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- ] - <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose any sanctions''' I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate ] on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. ] (]) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support TBAN''', indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this ] type editing, whether it is attempting to ] or simply ] discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. ] (]) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. ] (]) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' ''Skyshifter'', if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to descelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. ''']]''' 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite () to boot. ] (]) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :'''I support''' the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :'''I oppose''' with the IP-ban because if anything this '''SHOULD’VE''' ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing. | |||
| :<br> ] (]) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. ] (]) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents. | |||
| :::NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent. | |||
| :::Cheers, <br> ] (]) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This reply reminded me of the essay ]. ] (]) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. ] (]) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. ] (]) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at ] accusing me of coming to their talk page to "{{tq|further troll me with this nonsense warning}}". '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --] (]) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both. To make sure I haven't lost my goddamn mind, I read this discussion '''''twice'''''. I personally believe Darwin is in the wrong here. His behavior on enwiki violates both GENSEX and BLP sanctions (), and he doubled down when he had the chance to defend himself (] and comments above). Even if we play devil's advocate and assume Darwin's claims about Sky being a troll/vandal and sockmaster (which is a heavy accusation to make) on ptwiki are true, her work on enwiki has shown that she's changed for the better. This is coming from a person who has interacted with Sky a couple of times (], ], ]); she is an amazing editor on here. For the sake of everyone involved and to avoid another mess like this, the sanctions above should be enforced. 💽 ] 💽 🌹 ⚧ <sup>(''']''')</sup> 08:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === ] taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge. === | |||
| It is so easy for a handful of editors to pile-on and do the tag-team thing to exclude content they deem offensive - regardless of how notable and substantiated the content is. I suppose intimidation and tag-teaming is easier than actually discussing the content on the Talk page. | |||
| {{hat|1=100% affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{atop|result=This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this ]s on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}} | |||
| On the 29th of December, ] started an AN/I based on a claim that ], a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination . AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate. | |||
| She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. | |||
| But as I learned in the prior ANI, neutral editors that visit these pages are way too busy to do a detailed scrutiny. Who has time to look at the Talk pages of the pages and see if I've been civil (I have)? Who has time to look at the content and sources to see if they are reliable and notable (they are)? Who has time to see if Jayjg tried to discuss the issue on the Talk page (he didn't)? No one. We are all unpaid volunteers, blundering forward. | |||
| But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log. | |||
| So, I propose that we continue, Jayjg and me and the other interested editors, discussing the issues on the Talk pages. I also suggest that we check our egos at the door, and try to focus on what is best for the reader of this encyclopedia. Working together, we can produce neutral, balanced, comprehensive articles. Shall we try? --] (]) 07:09, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I believe I blocked you for only , which is bad enough I guess. However, I did unblock you. - ] (formerly ]) <sup>]</sup> 07:49, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I was blocked for 24 hours. The error message was something like "You are not blocked, but your IP address is". The expiration time of the IP block was 12 Feb 18:13, if that helps. But I can edit now, so no big deal. --] (]) 07:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Oops, sorry about that. You should have sent me an email - I didn't block your email access. - ] (formerly ]) <sup>]</sup> 08:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage ( and in ]), ] over other users and using ] and ] to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it ], with all the proofs). The ] taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever. | |||
| Actually, Noleander, despite your obfuscation, the issue is about behavior, behavior, behavior. You edit primarily Jewish-related articles, solely for the purpose of making Jews look bad. That's a behavioral issue, since the specific content varies wildly, depending on the article. The fact that you pretend, with no evidence whatsoever, that there is "censorship" or "systemic bias" in relation to religion articles is a pretty transparent cover for this distasteful behavior. Adding a list of "Pornographers" to the List of Jewish-American businessmen has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. And the fact that you again admit you're trying to combat this imaginary "censorship" also puts the lie to the claim that you're simply trying to document antisemitic canards. No, you are trying to promote them, in order to overcome this imaginary "censorship". ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 06:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, while I'd agree that the term 'pornographer' is probably not what such people call themselves, there are people in the US, some of whom may be of the Jewish faith or ethnicity, who are major players in the Adult print (and increasingly web) industry and the Adult end of the movie industry, which are big business in the US. Since this is a business, like any other, so if producers of other genres of entertainment media are mentioned, the notables in the Adult genre should be mentioned too. So if your objection is to the descriptor 'pornographer', I'm with you. If your objection is to revealing that some persons who would describe themselves as Jewish-American are senior executives in Adult entertainment, then that's censorship.] (]) 13:35, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::No Elen of the Roads. As I've very, very clearly stated more than once, this is not about any specific edit, but about a ''pattern of behavior''. When one edits all Jewish-related articles, including the List of Jewish American businesspeople, for the sole purpose of, in that editor's view, making Jews look bad, then it's a '''behavioral issue'''. Mentioning the list of pornographers was simply a response to Noleander's transparent prevarication that he made this edit (and other similar ones) as a "criticism of religion". Adding a list of ethnic Jews in "Pornography" is not a "criticism" of Judaism; indeed, we have no idea what religion these people practice, and in any event their line of work is irrelevant to their faiths, whatever they may be. And the fact that he used the pejorative descriptor "Pornography" while in his edit summary used the more neutral and encyclopedic is merely one symptom (albeit a common one) of the larger problem. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 18:35, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was '''personal''' and for '''revenge'''. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under ], here called ] I think, and ]/], and in the AN/I above she's commiting ], repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment. | |||
| :::::Noleander says his interest lies in criticism of religion, which is fine, but this has nothing to do with religion that I can see. He seems to be focusing on ethnicity. Jewish businessmen and pornography have nothing to do with Judaism. <font color="purple">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font> <font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 22:50, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :: "Adult entertainment" is a euphemism. Must one use euphemisms to comply with NPOV? ] (]) 14:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Noleander's use of the not-]-on-Misplaced Pages word "censorship" is obfuscating the issue. He sees something missing, I think, rather than something that isn't ''allowed to exist'' on Misplaced Pages. Actually, though, the only evidence that it isn't ''allowed'' to exist is threads like this, as DGG pointed out above. | |||
| :{{replyto|Eduardo_Gottert}} You need to provide evidence when opening an ANI thread, not on request. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::This isn't a case of ]. It's a matter of choosing to perceive things a certain way, when there's a choice. ] tells us which choice we're ''supposed'' to make in cases like this. If someone said "Maybe it's time certain information that people have traditionally found objectionable, like Jewish pornographers, be included in articles, as info like this is sorely missing from Misplaced Pages," that's not an unreasonable cause to undertake. The problem is, such a person's edits would be rather indistinguishable from "pushing an antisemitic agenda"; it's just a matter of how you ''choose'' to see it. | |||
| ::'@] The evidences are above. I said if you need any '''further''' evidence, you may ask. All of the necessary evidence are on the request. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Where's the evidence? What we know is that DarwIn came here despite little involvement and made a highly offensive statement that can reasonably be characterised as transphobic. While I don't feel Sky Shifter should have described it so, better to let others decide, it was entirely reasonable for Sky Shifter to call for action against DarwIn for it. What is your evidence that they did it for revenge instead of for the fact that after a disagreement with DarwIn in a different wiki, DarwIn suddenly appeared in this wiki, one they themselves agree they barely edit, to make a highly offensive statement that Sky Shifter reasonably felt was transphobic. After doing so, they then appeared on ANI to make similar highly offensive statements were they made offensive accusations against living based on their own opinion. ] (]) 06:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Honestly, the argument is pretty clear above. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If you agree you're wrong then please withdraw this ANI. ] (]) 06:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I did not agree in any place that I am wrong. I just stated that the evidence is pretty clear above, with all the block discussions and diffs needed for understanding the problem. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Your statement was very unclear. You said "the argument" which I interpreted to mean my argument. If you're still claiming your argument is clear, then please explain how it can be when part of your argument is it was unfair for Sky Shifter to go around saying "transphobia" when many of us agree that even if it was unnecessary, it was not unsupported given the comments DarwIn was making do seem to be transphobic. ] (]) 06:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::As we were talking about my evidence, I think saying "the argument" clearly refer to me. And as to the reason for the opening of this ANI, it's because the revenge seeking of Skyshifter. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I wouldn't say it doesn't considering as I said, one of the reasons your argument was flawed, but you didn't address that in any way. Nothing you've said above or since has explained why you're claiming Sky Shifter using the word "transphobic" is evidence for "revenge" when it's a reasonable characterisation of what DarwIn said. ] (]) 06:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::{{ec}} I would add it's very unclear what you thinking you're adding that wasn't already considered above. In the above thread a 1 way iban on DarwIn seems to be getting serious consideration. A two way iban seems to have been rejected based on the assessment that whatever the wrongs with Sky Shifter's approach, it wasn't serious enough to warrant an iban. The fact that Sky Shifter was in a dispute with DarwIn on other wikis, and DarwIn was involved in their blocked is likewise not a secret, part of it was stated by Sky Shifter when opening the thread and the rest was stated by DarwIn. The sock allegation likewise. So what do you think you're adding to the discussion that wasn't already considered and seemingly rejected by the community above? ] (]) 06:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :It is time for a ]. You already said all of that above. You seem to have been canvassed here from a discussion outside of this wiki. Go back there and let them know cross wiki harassment will get you blocked here. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I added more evidence and context. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::You simply cast aspersions as part of a cross wiki harassment campaign against someone over transgender related issues. You are not here to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 06:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Your statement doesn't even make sense. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::We can add ] to the reasons you are blocked then. ] (]) 06:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Am I? And where am I in violation of ]? <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I used plain English and you said you couldn't comprehend it. ] (]) 06:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| : |
:I thought it was pretty well determined in that prior ANI thread that DarwIn's edits and statements absolutely were transphobic and bigoted. ]]<sup>]</sup> 06:07, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
| ::The reason for the AN/I opens is still the same, revenge. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Ambiguous? Indeed, we're supposed to assume good faith. However, once lack of good faith is demonstrated, and the assumption clearly is not a valid assumption, the policy becomes irrelevant. In this particular case, we have an editor with an unambiguously intensely POV approach to editing, doing his best to promote bigotry. It surprises me that this sort of bigotry has this much support, but perhaps I am naive. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 16:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *I've read many of the posts on the Portuguese wiki, and it is pretty clear that the Skyshifter's complaint above is a deliberate expansion of drama from there. The Portugese wiki is not Uganda, people do not get banned there for being Trans, and former admins don't get banned without causing a lot of disruption. It is clear these two users really strongly dislike each other and need to stop interacting in any way.--] (]) 06:59, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::There's no "ambiguity" whatsoever here. Noleander has made it clear by both his actions and words what his intent is. And Equazcion, we won't be diverted by your continued game of pretending this is about a single edit. No, it's not about "Jewish pornographers"; it's about editing articles related to Jews with the sole intent of making Jews look bad. Noleander is, as jpgordon states plainly and truthfully, "doing his best to promote bigotry". He's not trying to balance any imagined imbalance, or overcome any invented censorship. He's just ]. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 18:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *:People obviously doesn't get banned for being trans. She was sysop there, commited some errors, but stayed there even after 5 months of being on estrogen. And the community knew it. What caused her block there was calling the project a sewage and then outbreaking and attacking other users. I suggest they get a two-way IBAN, at least, not the one-way as proposed on the other AN/I. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I agree that there seems to be no ambiguity here. This is not the first time Equazcion has acted as an apologist for bigotry with the excuse that "wikipedia is not censored". ] (]) 18:58, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{ec}} The fact that it's not about individual edits is the problem. If you can't point to any specific article issue, then there's no issue. The alternative is guilt by suspicion. The lack of individual issues to point out means there's no objective evidence. Just because you see something one way doesn't mean that's how it is. No one's condoning bigotry, they're just saying there's no reason to see it that way, nor is the perception any reason to act. ] is pretty easily misused to mean "I can act on my suspicions". Anyway I'm sure you know that no one here is a bigot, and are in fact sensitive to those issues. Kindly cease the hostilities. People including me are simply disagreeing with you. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 19:05, 14 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::::There's plenty of objective evidence; it requires looking at the body of edits, not the individual edits. What a weird idea. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 19:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I would add that unless I'm missing something, the block discussion on the Portugese Misplaced Pages seems to have been started about 30 minutes before the ANI thread . It has no contributions by DarwIn . It is theoretically possible I guess it somehow factored into the motivation of Skyshifter opening the ANI thread, but this seems extremely unlikely. There's a good chance Skyshifter wasn't even aware of it when opening the thread. In other words, there's no reason to think Skyshifter was even aware they were likely going to be permanently blocked from pt at the time of opening the thread although they did say they weren't going to return. ] (]) 07:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ===Arbitrary break 2=== | |||
| ::She opened an NI, ptwiki equivalent of AN/I against DarwIn with crazy arguments. You can see it ]. It was prompty closed, and she was very well aware of the consequences she would face, and of the opening of the block discussion, and clearly opened the AN/I because of that reason. The block discussion started at 1130 UTC, and the AN/I was posted at 1300, at a time that Skyshifter had already taken notice of the discussion, as you can see . <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Invited comment: I have been notified of the existence of this thread by Jayjg, an editor I tend to disagree with on matters concerning the Arab-Israeli conflict but agree with on matters concerning anti-Semitism unconnected with Israel. The notification was because I created a previous thread on this page concerning Noleander and his citing of articles held by far right webpages to do with Jewish involvement in Hollywood. The article about which I was complaining has been deleted along with one on allegations of anti-Semitism and because of that I have not got access to the complete archive of my postings at the time. However I recall a one sided selection of data on Noleander's part. I therefore tend to agree with postings above that ] applies. Why is Noleander so obsessed with matters Jewish that he feels the need to create entries concerning Jewish pornographers? I have seen no evidence Jews are either more nor less seedy than gentiles but am concerned by this editor's apparent obsession with digging up all he can find that is negative about Jews. I am quite happy to take part in mudslinging against the current and previous Israeli governments, but the suggestion that the Jewishness of some of the people on the seedy side of American life needs highlighting strikes me as extremely suspicious in one with the editorial history of Noleander. Unless Noleander demonstrates a capacity to spend well over half of his Misplaced Pages time on amtters that have nothing to do with Jews, then I think that he should be told to go and grind that axe somewhere other than in WIkipedia.--] (]) 22:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *This is ''very blatantly'' a tit-for-tat. As mentioned above there is the distinct smell of fishiness about it, and {{tqq|as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log}} - yes, the editor who has ''three FAs'' on en.wiki "came to this project" to do this. Suggest this be promptly closed as I hear a ] inbound. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| (Un-invited comment) I have to say, I find the existence of this thread depressing. If this were a brick and mortar encyclopedia, Noleander would have been shown the door, smartly, long before now. It's very disturbing that some people want to defend the indefensible. <font color="green">]</font> 03:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *:I am not saying she isn't an avid used of English wiki. I just stated that she took ptwiki matters here for revenge and self-fullfillment. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, sure, I would have been kicked out of brick & mortar encyclopedia. But so would Jayjg. The fact is that there is a long and well-documented history of about 20 editors in Misplaced Pages fighting tooth and nail to keep any and all information out of the encyclopedia that in any way reflects negatively on Israel or Jews. Those editors, too, would not be tolerated in a brick & mortar encyclopedia. | |||
| *::If you aren't asking for any sanctions against Skyshifter, then why did you open this sub-section, just to sling some mud at her? Give it a rest already, you're just creating more drama than is necessary.]] 08:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think that the background of this dispute is very relevant. Obviously, neither Skyshifter or Darwin should face any repercussions here for behaviour on pt.wiki, but it isn't possible to understand what is happening here without discussing what happened there. For me, having read what happened over there is the main reason I wouldn't yet TBAN Darwin, and would call for a two-way rather than one way interaction ban.--] (]) 08:50, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ==Incivility and ABF in contentious topics== | |||
| :There was that odd CAMERA incident http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/Wikilobby_campaign), and then there is http://www.thejidf.org. | |||
| ]'s uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it ''is'' problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days: | |||
| :And every time there is some dispute, those same 20 or so editors team up with Jayjg (including a few that have commented in this thread). The content and quality of the enclopedia seems to be the last thing on their minds. | |||
| Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills. | |||
| :But this is wikipedia, where content in controversial areas is - for better or worse - arrived at by the dynamic tension between "opposite sides" (for lack of a better term). Excluding controversial material seems to be top priority. If we spent half the time working on the articles in question as we did pointing fingers at each other, the articles would be in a neutral, balanced state by now. --] (]) 16:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883 | |||
| ::''"Well, sure, I would have been kicked out of brick & mortar encyclopedia."'' It is heartening to see you acknowledge this. ''"But so would Jayjg."'' Quite wrong. Jay is a long-standing valued member here. You are not. The reason people are "pointing fingers" at you isn't because you have a POV -- lots of good Wikipedians do. It's that your actions are absolutely reprehensible, I hope you can see the difference there. But I sense that I am feeding you by replying, so I'll make that the last word from me. <font color="green">]</font> 16:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hmm, Im not following that logic. You're saying that the censorship practiced by Jayjg is okay because he has been doing it a long time? (By the way - you are one of the 20 or so editors that always seem to come to Jayjg's aid :-). | |||
| WP:NPA | |||
| :::As for ''"Valued member" '' - Wasn't Jayjg stripped of checkuser powers because he abused it? Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/West_Bank_-_Judea_and_Samaria#Jayjg_stripped_of_status_and_privileges | |||
| :::::--] (]) 17:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Actually, no, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 22:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Well that demonstrates that the community or its representatives are prepared to take various priveleges away from editors. Now looking at Jayjg's user page I note that he is entitled to quite a flashy ]. Wikipedians have a lot of tolerance for editors who may be awkward in some ways but also provide good contents. (There has been a discussion on unbanning one such person on a board near here.) Now, if you want us to show tolerance for your quirks could you let us know how much featured or good content you have produced? As far as I can tell the answer is none at all as you are too busy pursuing the single purpose of digging dirt about Jews.--] (]) 20:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324 | |||
| ::::::See above where I offered to bury the hatchet and work together with Jayjg to improve the content of several articles. He never responded. --] (]) 20:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::What "hatchet" is there to "bury"? I have no "feud" with you. You are editing in a disruptive way, period. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 22:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :GA/FA contribs don't matter in a case like this. If they exist they might be something to point out as a "plus", but their lack isn't any reason to say an editor should be blocked. I don't think I've had many GA/FA contribs, and I certainly don't keep track of them, on my user page or elsewhere. That doesn't mean anything. The burden of proof is on the accusers to show actual damage, not on the accused to prove innocence through GAs and FAs. | |||
| Profanity | |||
| :On Peter Cohen's requested involvment, his extensive introductory comment undoubtedly meant to avert any accusations of ] violations on the part of Jayjg, this was indeed canvassing. Contacting someone who you tend to "agree with on matters concerning anti-Semitism unconnected with Israel" and request they comment on a matter concerning anti-Semitism unconnected with Israel is the definition of ]. | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966 | |||
| :I'll say this again: There are two ways (at least) to look at this editor's "body of edits". It's far from an objective form of proof. As many others commenting here have said, pointing out an editor's perceived agenda is never grounds to do anything. It's a subjective judgment, and it's rather arrogant to claim that one's subjective judgments are in fact objective. You're supposed to assume good faith that the user is attempting to balance the content of these articles, rather than promote antisemitism. There's no way around that. | |||
| Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor | |||
| :If someone takes it upon himself to add ] to swimming pools, you could conclude he must therefore like to swim in chlorine; but that would be a very ] and unenlightened interpretation. Taking it upon oneself to restore or maintain a balance might mean forming a body of work that doesn't look all that positive. If Noleander tends to only worry about one side of the balance because he feels Misplaced Pages content on the issue tends to be unbalanced, he has every right to do that, and doesn't need to balance out ''his contributions'' with edits that advocate the other side equally just to maintain some ''appearance'' of positivty. It's just not a requirement here. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 22:43, 15 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::Equazcion, your post is pretty much a smokescreen unrelated to this thread. There's no "perceived agenda" here; Noleander has stated quite openly stated that he believes he must overcome some imaginary "censorship" as regards Jewish topics, and has made it quite obvious his way of doing so is by editing Misplaced Pages solely to make Jews look bad. Editing Misplaced Pages solely for the purpose of adding negative information about a minority group is highly disruptive, and Misplaced Pages would not put up with it if it were a different minority group. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 23:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Jay, you're not listening. Please try to understand: My post answers exactly this concern. Adding only negative information is ''not necessarily bad''. It just might ''look'' bad. See the chlorine metaphor. And again please stop with the hostilities, claiming my post is a "smokescreen". I have no agenda to obfuscate the issue. I simply disagree with you. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 23:08, 15 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::Equazcion, I'm listening quite well, it's just that your points, and analogy, fail miserably. They are predicated on the false assumption that articles relating to Jews have been suffering from "censorship" that has suppressed negative information. This is, however, a disturbed fantasy, no more. Adding ''only'' negative information is, if nothing else, a violation of ]; NPOV, as the policy makes clear, is required of '''all editors'''. One cannot add only negative information, and expect other editors to balance the material. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 04:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::NPOV applies to articles, not user contribution histories. As long as an editor didn't cause an article to become slanted towards one POV, they can add all the negative information they like. Their reason for doing so is a subjective judgment and irrelevant. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 04:11, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::::Incorrect. ] is "expected of all articles '''and all editors'''." ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 04:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Yes, it is expected that all editors strive towards editing articles so that they represent an NPOV view. The editor's contributions are not required to be balanced thusly. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 04:20, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::::::I'm not sure exactly what you are saying. O.K., so, for example, when Noleander edited the ], he was just attempting to "make it represent a NPOV view"? Let's take a look. When Noleander started editing it, it had ten names on it, and seemed a bit heavily weighted to Technology leaders. So, to create "NPOV", Noleander added 47 names, consisting of: | |||
| ::::::::*32 Jews in senior roles in the media/Hollywood (in support of the Jews control the media/Hollywood canard), including 4 Jews specifically searched for and added because they produced "Pornography". | |||
| ::::::::*12 Jews in senior roles in the Finance industry (in support of the "Jews control international Finance" canard), including 5 Jews specifically searched for and added because they had been convicted of serious crimes. | |||
| ::::::::*1 Jew in fashion, 1 billionaire casino owner, and 1 billionaire real estate developer (the latter from a book called "The Vulture Investors"). | |||
| ::::::::After his changes the list consisted of 51% media executives (including 7% "pornographers"), and 25% finance executives (including 9% criminals). Now given that there are hundreds of Jewish-American businesspeople with Misplaced Pages articles, in all types of business, do you think that Noleander's edits to this article have brought it into line with the ] policy? Or do you, perhaps, concede that the list is now, oh, I dunno, a tad ] with media and finance figures, criminals and "pornographers"? ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 04:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::This would be a specific article problem so that's a good start. The thing is though that adding finance and Hollywood figures isn't necessarily negative. The convicts and pornographers could be perceived that way, but 9 "negatives" versus 35 others doesn't seem like a slant towards the negative to me. The fact is that there a good many Jewish people in those positions, whether it's ] to say that or not, so maybe the article being largely about them is an accurate weight distribution -- and again this is just the "others" we're talking about. Noleander's edits don't seem to have made it look like most Jews are convicts or pornographers -- those still make up the vast minority of the list. So no I don't see this article as a problem. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 05:06, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::::::::Equazcion, you must not pretend you haven't read the previous conversation, or that these edits were done in isolation. As part of Noleander's problematic activities, both before and after his break, Noleander was promoting the conspiracy theories that Jews control the media and world finance. This was just another way of doing so. Re-read the very first post in this whole thread, which explained this. In any event, your hand-waving rationalizations won't wash when confronted with the actual figures and percentages. The article became ] after Noleander's edits. Are 51% of Jewish-American businesspeople senior media executives? Are 9% convicted criminals? Are 7% pornographers? No, we're pretty much done here. Noleander fundamentally violated NPOV in his editing philosophy, and specifically violated NPOV in his edits to individual articles, and there's nothing you can say that will whitewash those facts. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 05:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I doubt most list articles do actually correlate to figures that represent accuracy down to the whole percent. No, I don't think the article is unduely weighted (incidentally, if it is then why not work on changing it?) | |||
| :::::::::::Anyway, I suspect you only think the edits were bad ''because'' noleander thinks his additions are "negative". Meaning that, had anyone else made the same edits, you probably wouldn't have seen a problem -- it's just this "quest" he's stated he's on that has you thinking differently. You don't want him to feel he's "succeeded", so to speak. Objectively there's no problem with the edits themselves, and had you seen them appear from someone who wasn't on a "quest", you wouldn't have batted a lash. As much as Noleander has an agenda, you've got the same one, perhaps, only going the opposite way -- you just haven't admitted it, as he has. You're very emotionally invested, which I suppose shouldn't be a shock, and I doubt there's any chance you'd let up no matter what anyone says or even if events changed. | |||
| :::::::::::The point is that this "negative" stuff is only "negative" because noleander thinks it is. Don't let that get to you. You need to read up on the word "objective" and see some examples of its proper use. The objective facts are that noleander added finance and Hollywood people. This isn't objectively bad. A ''subjective'' view is that he's added information that supports a canard -- and the fact that he sees it this way doesn't make it any less subjective. His subjective view of his edits don't dictate how we're to view or react to them, as long as they don't damage the article ''objectively''. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 05:59, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::::::::::This isn't about your inappropriate and incorrect speculations regarding my emotions, it's about Noleander's behavior. Several people have all seen the same issue with his behavior that I have. And, objectively speaking, the edits violated ] regardless of who did them. Here are the objective facts: Noleander has been working for months to highlight the view that Jews control the media and finance. Are 51% of Jewish-American businesspeople senior media executives? 25% finance executives? 9% convicted criminals? 7% pornographers? Are the numbers ''anywhere close'' to that? No. Fundamental violation of ], done deliberately. Case closed. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 06:10, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}}Yes, many people share your subjective view, and many also share my opposing subjective view. No, his work to "highlight" certain views is not objective, that's subjective. It's your opinion. Noleander has stated that he's working to restore an area of content that he feels has been kept out of articles, not to feature them with more prominence than other information, and I haven't seen any evidence that suggests otherwise. That's '''my''' subjective view. This doesn't matter though. Objectively speaking, an agenda is not a reason to sanction. I could have an agenda to add content to multiple Canada-related articles to support the view that they have a weak military, because I feel facts that support this view haven't been given their due weight. I can't be sanctioned purely for that. Whether I'm on a quest to add what I perceive to be the negative or positive, it's all facts. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 06:26, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877 | |||
| ::Equazion can you explain how you are able to assume good faith about an editor obsessed with digging the dirt on all things Jewish but then you assume bad faith by writing that my "extensive introductory comment undoubtedly meant to avert any accusations of ] violations on the part of Jayjg"--] (]) 00:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Unicivil | |||
| :::"obsessed with digging the dirt on all things Jewish" is a subjective take on the situation. Assuming good faith means viewing a subjective situation with the assumption that a person had the best of intentions at heart -- which is in direct opposition to assuming they're out to promote an anti-semitic agenda, or even that they're feeding an obsession. Canvassing policy has nothing to do with AGF. This was a technical violation. An editor who knew they'd get support from you asked you to comment. Faith doesn't come into play there. There are a lot of editors I could contact for support in this thread, but I don't, because it's against policy (and for good reason). <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 00:29, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::Actually, Equazcion, I had no idea if Peter Cohen would support me or not. My recollection of Peter Cohen's edits and comments was that he generally disagreed with me, period. I did not "canvass" his support, I quite publicly notified him of this thread as a courtesy, as he had started the previous thread regarding Noleander, and this violated no policy whatsoever. It's rather bizarre that you can insist that this action was a "technical violation", rather than simply Bad Faith on your part, while jumping through hoops to explain away Noleander's edits as being something entirely different from what they quite obviously are, and claiming others are exhibiting Bad Faith regarding him. I could as easily state that my assessment of Noleander's edits as fundamentally violating ] is purely technical, and therefore entirely accurate and outside the purview of ]. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 04:10, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If you didn't know Peter Cohen would support you, then you're right, and I apologize. Peter's post wording led me to believe you knew he'd be "on your side" so to speak, but I may have misread. A violation of NPOV, however, is not the contribution of only negative information across articles, as I've just stated above in response to another of your comments. Editors aren't required to maintain an NPOV contribution list. So long as they don't cause an article to slant towards a particular POV, there's no NPOV violation. Noleander's edits are not "quite obviously" anything -- it's a subjective matter, again, and assuming good faith means assuming they were made in an effort to improve content coverage rather than slant it. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 04:17, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::::Peter may know his own mind, but I certainly don't know it. And, as I've shown above, Noleander's edits quite obviously made articles "slant towards a particular POV". ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 04:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027 | |||
| === Proposed resolution? === | |||
| *<small>''refactored here, from above, by <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 04:29, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font>''</small> | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441 | |||
| Noleander writes above that his interest lies in adding criticism of religions, so perhaps he could put people's minds at rest by focusing on that clearly from now on—on religion, rather than ethnicity, and using good sources that offer a critique of religion. <font color="purple">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font> <font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 22:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm amenable to SlimVirgin's suggestion. My primary interest is ensuring that the "downsides" of religions are documented in this encyclopedia (in a neutral, balanced way), and I'm willing to focus on that area. Good sourcing is always a priority for me, but I can redouble my efforts in that regard. --] (]) 00:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks, that would probably resolve the issue, particularly if the criticism is spread around different religions or focuses on the general concept. <font color="purple">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font> <font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 00:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Then perhaps that's the end of this, if everyone agrees...? <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 04:29, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::Noleander still thinks he has done nothing wrong, and insists he is just fighting "censorship". And you're supporting him as always, using ever more farfetched rationalizations, which give him no reason to believe otherwise. It's hard to resolve things with an editor who is on a policy-violating crusade, and a second editor who will defend anything the first editor does. If he doesn't understand what he was doing wrong, how can he stop doing it? ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 04:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'm growing irritated of this claim that I'll defend anything he does. I have no reason to be loyal to Noleander. Frankly he does nothing but ignore me no matter how much I defend him, even when I've attempted to communicate with him before. If you want to characterize people's motives you should at least have some grounds. I believe in Noleander's right to do what he's doing as of now. That's it. I have no loyalty to him personally whatsoever, and if he ever actually did step out of line I'd be the first reign hellfire down on his ass. Kindly desist from this. We disagree. Deal with it. A healthy debate can be had without continually belittling your opponent. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 05:11, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::::Equazcion, I'm not sure why you'd grow irritated with an objective description of your actions in this thread. You defend everything he does, using increasingly far-fetched rationalizations. Even when presented with indisputable numbers, you attempt to slap some whitewash on them. And since nothing he does, in your estimation, actually "steps out of line", your promise to "reign hellfire down on his ass" is hollow. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 05:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Are you aware of the definition of the word "objective"? ]. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 05:45, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::::::Well, it certainly doesn't mean "Noleander can do no wrong, regardless of the evidence", as you seem to think it does. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 06:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::: Of course it doesn't mean that. See ]. Are you aware of what it actually ''does'' mean? When you characterize someone's motives, as you've done with me, that's not objective. It's your opinion. Opinions aren't objective. Even if you're 100% sure you're right, and that no intelligent person in their right mind could possibly disagree with you, as you are undoubtedly sure of, it's still your subjective view. Tangentially, I tend to suspect people who seem this sure of themselves. It's usually the correct people who are willing to admit they could be wrong. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 06:36, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::::::::Err, no, actually, I haven't characterized your motives. Quite the opposite, in fact, you've characterized ''my'' motives, claiming I'm "very emotionally invested". In reality, though, I've simply described your behavior (and Noleander's). And yes, quite objectively, a word whose meaning I fully comprehend. I do appreciate the odd paradox you seem to have created; if you now admit you could be wrong, then that will ipso facto prove you to be correct. Good one! ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 22:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::] argument. See ] again. Just because I say "I'm suspicious of group A while tending to find group B more likely to be correct" doesn't translate to "group B is always correct". You're correct that my characterization of your edits was subjective, but incorrect that your "''description'' of my behavior" was any less subjective. You weren't merely describing. Describing means telling people ''what'' I said, even paraphrased; but it is not saying "he'll defend anything noleander does no matter what" (which furthermore predicts the future) or that I'm using "far-fetched rationalizations". Those are characterizations, statements of opinion, and they are indeed subjective. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 00:08, 17 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| :::::And this subsection is supposed to be about SlimVirgin's proposed resolution. Do you agree or disagree with her offer? Noleander is willing to accept it. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 05:11, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::::Part of SlimVirgin's proposed resolution included ensuring "the criticism is spread around different religions or focuses on the general concept". Noleander hasn't agreed to that, has he? And, of course, if 90% of his criticisms were focused on Judaism, 5 percent on Mormonism, and 1 percent each on Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Sikhism, you'd still be defending him in the inevitable next AN/I thread, wouldn't you? ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 05:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Contact on user page attempted | |||
| I think Noleander's pattern of edits are well described by the ] and ]. It seems to continue despite Tbdsy's warning. I have given him another, quite a stern warning and intend to block if the behavior does not change. Slimvirgin's proposal seem to be a good way to break the pattern there are probably hundreds other ways it is up to Noleander's but if his behavior would not change he should be blocked per ] ] (]) 07:03, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :For the record I don't think this discussion shows any sort of consensus on the issue. There are some pretty well-respected editors and admins further up who don't see a problem here. I respect your view, but this warning seems rather unilateral; which isn't to say you weren't allowed to make it anyway, but still, this is just for the record. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 07:17, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| This reflects a general principle not necessarily limited to Misplaced Pages, but I don't believe that editors could rightly be prohibited from editing from an anti-religious perspective, whether that is general or specific to a given religion, unless they are equally prohibited from editing from a pro-religious perspective (e.g., the principle being applied should not favor any particular religion over another, or favor either religion or irreligion generally). There is a question with Judaism, certainly, about whether it can be categorized solely as a religion, and I don't believe the same principle applies to editing from an anti-ethnic perspective (as it wouldn't apply to a pro-pedophilia position). At least with regard to religion, though, I don't believe that being either pro or anti can be favored over the other. That doesn't resolve this, of course. Regardless, I would generally suggest that admins should look at the quality rather than the motive of the edits. If edits are repeatedly being undone, and shown to have been inappropriate, then the result should presumably be the same regardless of the editor's motives; likewise with any of the behavioral policies. This should avoid a perpetual hassle in chasing someone around. ] (]) 09:00, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795 | |||
| == Requesting input for proposed community sanction of ] regarding edits related to the ] == | |||
| Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent | |||
| {{userlinks|Mister Flash}} has been ] for quite some time now over whether and how a great number of articles should use the term ]. That article is subject to a 1RR restriction, there is a taskforce at ], and I am not sure if this is related to and subject to the sanctions at ]. Many of these articles are watched by very few people, or the regular editors do not feel like getting involved with a highly contentious minor point (example: the recent edit war at received ] from editors not involved in this wide-ranging terminology dispute). It is certainly possible that wider editing restrictions may be called for regarding this dispute, but I think a restriction on Mister Flash would go a long way towards reducing British Isles terminology related ]. I would like to propose that they be placed on a 1RR restriction and be required to gain firm consensus at the relevant talkpage or the taskforce page ''before'' making any edit regarding whether and how any article should describe this particular geographic and geopolitical region. - ] <small>(])</small> 20:07, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :As one of the editors involved in setting up the task force some intervention would be appreciated. There have been long standing edit wars over this, and consolidating all the debates in one place started to get some structure in place. However Mister Flash has an auto-revert approach on any change that does not involve the use of the BI term, regardless of the level of consensus. S/he seems to be a single purpose account. A brief review of the Task Force will show that while several editors are being even handed, their work is being disrupted by a failure to accept consensus and a consistent refusal to engage in discussion. There is a 1RR restriction already in place so I don't think that is the solution to be honest. We need something that prevents simple say-saying on every task force discussion--] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:42, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::The articles-in-question, should be covered by the Troubles Enforcement ruling of 1RR (if they are not). ] (]) 21:25, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thank you for the opportunity to state my case in this matter. First let me brief you on some historical aspects. From some time about early 2008 ] has waged a campaign against the term ]. I will not comment on his motives, but I merely draw your attention to the facts. Initially the removals were carried out en-masse, with perhaps dozens of removals in a single editing session. I estimate that in the three-year period of this activity a minimum of 500 removals have occurred. During his campaign HighKing has been assisted by numerous other users, principally ] (possibly now editing under a "clean start" as ]) and ]. HighKing's activities have spilled out across Misplaced Pages and have resulted in many edit wars, confrontations and violations of policy, involving everyone concerned. His work continues. Only two days ago a further two deletions were carried out, each of which featured the usual trademark of an edit summary not adequately describing what was happening. I came across HighKing in late 2008 and found myself objecting strongly to his edits. I tend to revert his edits because, in my opinion, the vast majority of them are not justified. Rarely is the term ] being used incorrectly. If it ever is, then I don't object to its removal. When removals are challenged, a variety of tactics are used to try and overcome the objections. All the tactics employed amount to variations on gaming the system, with wikilawyering and ] being foremost amongst them. Take the recent example of ] - the edits which have caused the reporting of this incident: HighKing first tried to claim the subject was not notable, when that failed he went for a merge, and this was followed by claims that the references (references to support an axiom, I might add) were inadequate. This latter tactic is a favourite of the anti-British Isles community; place a cite tag on an obvious fact and when no references are forthcoming, delete the term. So to my part in this: I object to the policy of British Isles removals for what I consider to be political reasons, hence my numerous reversions of the edits of HighKing and others. I would be very happy never to edit another BI-related article (specifically involving addition or removal of the term) provided a similar restriction was placed on other users involved in this dispute. In his comments on this matter, ] would have you believe that I am 100% at fault and that he, HighKing and others have no case to answer. Such an assertion could not be farther from the truth. These users are at least as culpable as me in this matter. Remember that the root cause of this entire debacle is one single, solitary user - HighKing. If he stopped systematically trying to remove British Isles from Misplaced Pages we would not now be having this debate. So to summarise; I will accept a community sanction not to add or remove British Isles provided that sanction is also applied to the other users whose identities I have noted here. ] (]) 22:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::If my suggestion is adopted, then both sides will be restricted to 1RR on the articles-in-question. ] (]) 23:07, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It won't work, GD. The BI removals would continue. ] (]) 23:08, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::What would you suggest? ] (]) 23:17, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::See above! A ban on all deletion and removals of British Isles by listed editors. ] (]) 23:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Howabout a ban on all deletion/additions of British Isles for all editors on Misplaced Pages? I could accept that condition. ] (]) 23:28, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Cailil, am I missing something here, or did you refer to me as "being a single purpose, disruptive, wikihounding, edit warring, politically driven account", and then go on to admonish ] for saying that ] "has us believe that he's whiter than white"? Quite frankly I'm astounded, but I'll let it pass. On the subject of my user page, which you don't like, ]. Please note that I do not edit politically. I try to revert the political edits of others. Your suggestion of a site ban for me is completely over the top. I've already agreed to refrain from editing British Isles related articles if others will do the same. What more do you want? The Special Examples page is worthless. It was set up by HighKing because he was forced to do it. He objects to it, and has now stopped using it. It is flawed: it only attracts HK's supporters and those seeking to limit his edits. Other article editors are largely unaware of it. It is no substitute for the article talk pages. As ] states below, this problem will not go away until all concerned agree to stop removing, or indeed inserting, British Isles. You note below that this thread is not about HighKing. Would you object if I expanded it so that it was - adjust title etc and put a notice on his Talk page. ] (]) 18:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Flash I don't think you get it. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. Your contributions (listed below): inserting unsourced material, removing sourced material, edit warring and wikihounding are not vague conjecture (as LevenBoy's remark about Snoweded was), they are a matter of record. If I said somebody was a pov-pusher but then gave no evidence that'd be a problem. But I've examined your edits and shown the issue. <br/>Yes I would have a problem with you adding HK to this since you've been wikihounding him. Please leave it to uninvolved editors and admins. If there is a substantive concern a WP:RFCU should be opened. Also since you've made no attempted to resolve the dispute between yourself and HK this is the wrong forum to begin ]. <br/>I agree the Task Force should be examined but I believe that should be left to the community. Also just out of courtesy you should reply to people in the thread that they posted--] <sup>]</sup> 22:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Sorry. Where didn't I do that? I generally try to keep the dialogue flowing, but it's not easy here. You really should look at some of the edits in more detail before saying they are inserting unsourced material etc. On the face of it, that may be true, but as I've said elsewhere, the issue of sources and the use of British Isles is just one example of gaming the system, but it's not immediately apparent how that gaming is taking place. See ] for a classic example of this. You'll also note that on that talk page I did request outside involvement, as I have done in many cases. I add this point just to defend myself against the current accusations. ] (]) 22:23, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557] (]) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Think this calls for a fierce ] slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a ] according to ], as this is just an ] and frankly, I don't see ''direct'' personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as {{tq|some diffs from the past few days}} are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Outside view=== | |||
| ::Would I be the person to provide you with that {{tq|further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions}}? I did think that it would be more than a ], since that's for {{tq|one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior}} and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern ]. ] (]) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| First no this isn't covered by the Troubles ArbCom ruling or any other ruling to my knowledge because the article sin question aren't about nationalism - but these editors are adding ideological references within them. As an outside viewer and uninvolved sysop I'd say it's pretty clear that ]'s and ]'s assessments bear out. <br/>I'd block ] myself as an obvious ] but for the fact that it might ''look bad'', being that I'm Irish. Nevertheless, I'm not saying editors who disagree with Flash are right or innocent of ]. What follows is a brief investigation of this issue. <br/>The ] edit-war is indicative - if this wording is a notable point it should be verifiable. In this single case it's clear that Flash reinstated an unsourced footnote for reasons other than WP:V, WP:NPOV and contrary to WP:NOR. On top of that the user's is highly politicized and openly hostile to the Task force. I believe it contravenes ], in that it is deliberately inflammatory (in the manner it links to the task force) and polemical (Scottish independence etc). <br/>Below is a review of problematic, politically motivated, edit-warring and/or wikihounding edits made by Mister Flash in some of his top 10 articles | |||
| :@]: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. ''Hob should know better'', and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to ]. But I would ''caution you'' about ] and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your , , and it seems like you're having a problem handling a ] and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith. | |||
| *] (diffs above) | |||
| :Furthermore it does appear that you might be ] because your attempts at ] for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. , , , , , , and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding ] and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards ]. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. ] ] 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *] And Flash's first edit to thois article is in response to High King's | |||
| ::I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address ''unique issues'' as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. ({{tq|All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.}} ]) Thank you for your time and input. | |||
| *] | |||
| ::] (]) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *] Interestingly He'd never edited here until High King did | |||
| ::I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: {{tq|trying to report other editors in bad faith}}. ] (]) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *] Flash starts editting here immediately after High King | |||
| {{OD}} | |||
| *] . Once more Flash appears on this page after HighKing edits it | |||
| @]: Jay brought something to my attention with . It looks like there is ] (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think {{!tq|hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason!}} I'm confused. This specific revision also ] about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. {{tq|Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.}} I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, ], what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, '''not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT''', in your own words. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *]. Again Mister Flash turns up here for the first time in order to revert HighKing. | |||
| :It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. ] (]) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| In summary, it is clear that Mister Flash is not alone in tendentious and disruptive behaviour. A number of edits by ] and ] are equally problematic. <br/>In terms of sanctions, HighKing has contributed positively to the project but seems overly focused on this issue(). It is also clear that Þjóðólfr and HighKing have edit warred with Mister Flash. It also seems that Þjóðólfr and Mister Flash engaged in wikihounding (Þjóðólfr of Flash; and Flash of HighKing). <br/>For this reason I move that Þjóðólfr should be '''topic banned''' from British Isles naming dispute topics for 6 months and placed on a '''1RR restriction'''; that HighKing should be placed on a '''1RR restriction''' in all articles. <s>It might also be worthwhile considering a 6 month '''topic ban''' from British Isles naming dispute topics for HighKing, but his presence on the task force (and therefore willingness to dialogue) gives me hope.</s> That said it might be worth investigating both of them a little further. <br/>Mister Flash being a single purpose, disruptive, wikihounding, edit warring, politically driven account should be '''site banned'''. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground and unless or until Mister Flash can commit themselves to the core policies and standards of editing on this site they should be prevented from disrupting it further--] <sup>]</sup> 02:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @], you should familiarise yourself with ]. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :In my experience, the only thing the special examples page has managed to do is introduce totally innaccurate, and borderline nonsense, information to articles, which other people have to clean up after the event. It quite evidently only exists to push a POV, 90% of cases presented are fine, it's the other 10% you need to watch to see how bad it is at coming up with an informed and accurate solution to this apparent 'problem' of mentioning the verboten phrase. ] (]) 15:51, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. ] (]) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hence my call for further investigation and a potential topic ban for HighKing--] <sup>]</sup> 16:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a ] slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::HighKing was problematic, but then fully participated in the task force and accepted the agreements reached there (albeit with frustration at times). However the functioning of the task group has been badly damaged by the actions of MisterFlash (occasionally with other support) who has either edit warred against consensus, or indulged in delaying tactics (look the discussions on Sarum Rite for an example). Attempts by myself and others to create some order through the task force have either being met by a total lack of cooperation or downright abuse. We could do with admin support there. I support the proposal by Cailil although I think it is harsh on Þjóðólfr who in general has responded to Flash and has not initiated any change where agreement has not first been established at the task force.--] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 06:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{u|BarntToust}} You're being ] and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::For all those above that are buying into the "HighKing was problematic" statement - can you please provide diffs? From my point of view, this inaccurate view is a victory for the editors that we are discussing. By calling my edits political, part of a campaign, etc, it seems that many editors slowly but surely start to believe this. The task force has been up and running since last September, and before that each and every one of my edits was discussed on the relevant Talk page. I've always attempted to the best of my ability to edit within the policies, to provide references, and to engage in discussions. Labelling this behaviour as "problematic" is very unfair and inaccurate. It may be unpopular with some editors, but that should not be mistaken for my acting in good faith, in a collaborative apolitical fashion. Cailil's suggestion above that I am placed on a 1RR restriction for *all* articles is similarly misplaced and without foundation, and I'm shocked and disappointed that he would not examine my behaviour a little closer. Placing my behaviour in the same basket as that of Mister Flash et al is wildly inaccurate and unfair. --] (]) 21:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @], I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a '''formal warning''' or a ] slap is what needs to happen to Hob. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| HK, the very fact that your account was involved in an edit-war anywhere is problematic. The fact that this occurred multiple times at multiple articles only serves to make it worse. Secondly extending the British Isles naming dispute to articles not about the dispute ''is'' an issue (these diffs are listed above). Yes Flash followed you to these articles but frankly, it takes two to tango (or in this case 3). BTW, no you are not being lumped in with Flash, you are not a single purpose account. Also I'm not convinced you should be topic banned but the ] speaks for itself--] <sup>]</sup> 21:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. ] (]) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Cailil, thank you for clarifying that my behaviour is not being lumped in with Flash - that's important to me. While I reckon that this probably isn't the correct forum to discuss individual articles, I don't understand what you mean by "extending the British Isles naming dispute to articles not about the dispute". The editing and Task Force is not about the BI naming dispute. The British Isles is a legitimate and correct name for the group of islands. I've no problems whatsoever with that. But your comment illustrates how easy it is to see *any* edit involving British Isles as somehow being caught up with Irish Nationalism, whereas my edits are concerned with accuracy (and this I've also stated before). The edits in question are where the term was (arguably) used incorrectly. Rather than debate here we can continue this particular discussion elsewhere - perhaps at the Task Force page. --] (]) 21:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are ] and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @], I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@], I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. for ''context'', in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. ] (]) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thanks! *curtsy* ] (]) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. ] (]) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :For further reference please see this link (HighKing was Bardcom) and this one . ] (]) 21:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? ] (]) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Mister Flash stop. Adding an old RfCU that went nowhere about HK and adding the AE that most admins are (and certainly the one who opened this section is) more than aware of, only goes further to show that you are wikihounding HK. Then emboldening that post only makes it worse. You will not get another warning for ]. You're being formally advised to disengage from HighKing and the British Isles naming dispute and User:HighKing--] <sup>]</sup> 21:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? ] (]) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Cailil, I sincerely suggest you move on, before you start abusing your powers as an admin. I bolded it because it was in danger of being lost in a section that's being edited in several locations. As for the content of those references, they are as relevant today as they were when they were current. They provide background information to this dispute, a dispute which for some reason you fail to acknowledge as being the root cuase of the current debate - and you have yet to answer my question about extending this section. It seems that many admins have tackled this issue over the last three years and all have given up on it, so it doesn't bode well for you. Suggesting that I'm wikihounding HK as a result of my referring to relevant archives is laughable, as is warning me to disengage from the BI naming dispute - it's what this thread is all about for heavens sake! ] (]) 22:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". ]] 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' ]? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word ''bullshit'', which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills"]] seems pretty temperate. And so on. ] | ] 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| :I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at ] where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. ] (]) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Inside view=== | |||
| :My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - ] (]) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I've previously been involved in this dispute but I've largely given up on it now. In fact, it's driven me away from Misplaced Pages to a certain degree. It seems that ] has not quite grasped the underlying issues concerned with HighKing and his edits. As many editors have noted, HK's edits are political in nature. He has an agenda and is using Misplaced Pages to promote it. It is his actions that are the ultimate source of the problems we encounter. Ask yourselves this question - If Mister Flash is site banned (a wholly disproportionate response) will the problem go away? Then ask this question - If HK is site banned (or topic banned) will the problem go away? I suggest the answer to the first question is 'No', because others would simply take up the reins. I also suggest that the answer to the second question is 'Yes'. It's very noticeable that when HK is not editing, no-one else is bothered about the SE page and there are no British Isles issues. Only when he re-starts does the problem crop up again. To me the solution to this intractable problem is simple - topic ban all concerned. Everyone involved in this has a case to answer, including ] who would have us believe he is whiter than white. No need for site-wide bans. Editors such as Mister Flash would simply melt away into background if a topic ban was in place. His editing is pretty much SPA so he'd move on elsewhere, and perhaps HK would as well. ] (]) 12:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Hob Gadling failing to yield to ], apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. ] (]) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :With respect to your points LevenBoy. First this thread is not about HighKing (hence my call for further investigation) but it is clear from his history that he edits other topics and is not a single purpose account. Second, please don't cast aspersions about other editors as you have about User:Snowded. Third, Mister Flash has, as can be seen by examining his contrib history used Misplaced Pages as a ]. Fourth your points would be more convincing if you could provide diffs as evidence. <br/>Over all I ''do'' see that ''groups'' of users are bringing political disputes to pages that have nothing to do with that dispute. Which is a) getting around the Troubles RfAR ruling, b) creating ideologically driven edit-wars and c) which is ''not'' limited to Mister Flash. However this thread is about Mister Flash - and frankly it would outside the remit of this forum to go through and unpick the complex of issues that users have with the Special Examples Task Force. That would require an RfAR which you are free to file. The other option and a suggestion that might be more useful to the community would be an extension of the Troubles AE ruling to the 'British Isles naming dispute' topic (widely construed). This would allow for discretionary sanctions on anyone edit-warring, etc, relating to the term 'British Isles'. To implement such an extension a request to ArbCom would be required. But IMHO it would make a lot of sense--] <sup>]</sup> 15:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Extent the AE Troubles ruling over the BI naming dispute. It can easily be assumed that there's some Irish nationalism & British unionism behind the disputes. ] (]) 16:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I've said it on multiple occasions - there's absolutely no Irish nationalism from my point of view. And you can see that the work that took place on the task force and Flashes refusal on many occasions to engage meaningfully. --] (]) 20:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::The two are ''completely'' separate issues. You might just as well extend the Troubles ruling over the Macedonian naming dispute. ] (]) 18:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| (outdent)I've only just seen this now. I hadn't been informed of this discussion. I arrived here as I was about to make a complaint about ] concerning and . Despite his untrue assertion that I was forced to create the Specific Examples page, the truth is that and I voluntarily set it up despite my misgivings about censorship - and in part because I had a good idea that it would end in disruption by a very small number of editors. Despite several warnings about civility, editing without following policy guidelines regarding references, and constantly branding any attempt to even discuss usage of British Isles as "political", his behaviour is not collaborative and he constantly edit-wars against consensus. He was warned in the past to not revert referenced material, but the two recent examples above clearly show that he openly ignores policy and admins. The Task Force has ground to a halt because of his behaviour and stone-walling. Examining his edits clearly shows he wikihounds my edits, and reverts without references or discussions. He takes the opportunity in his edit summaries, on every occasion, to label the edits as political or to unfairly cast any editors motives. In short, this is exactly the type of editor that we simply don't want on this project. He has recently been blocked for edit-warring, but his recent reverts demonstrate that he will simply continue to revert without reason in the future. --] (]) 20:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :To clarify the purpose of the task force just now. Its sole purpose is to limit, and ideally eliminate, usage of the term ] throughout Misplaced Pages; straight up. ] (]) 21:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : |
:Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. ] (]) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Propose''' serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at ]. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) ] (]) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please explain who you mean by "both" (I thought this was about Mister Flash's behaviour - are we extending this?). It might be helpful if you provided some diffs showing example of the other editor's behaviour. --] (]) 00:10, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *:For context, ] is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. ] (]) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. ] (]) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Recuse{{smiley}} Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. ] (]) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. ] (]) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to ] above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. ] (]) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *As a note, Hob Gadling without comment and has not responded here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::We have good and bad uses of the term SirFozzie, what we want to stop is edit wars. HighKing has (to his credit) after a long period of removing the term wherever he could find it, being prepared to use the task force page. However Mr Flash with some others (LevenBoy being another) have with the very very occasional exception simply said no to any change regardless of the evidence. At one point I suggested a ] which in a modified form would I think work. However any attempt to be even handed just results in the sort of accusations you can see above. Mister Flash's view of the purpose of the Taskforce is not supported by any examination of the cases there. Any examination of the edit history on the task force page, or on the articles will show that we have a single purpose editor who auto-reverts, makes accusations against other editors and actively seeks to prevent consensus on contentious issues. I've been prepared to spend time on the task force, looking at each issue as have a small number of other editors with experience of the BI issue. I can see some guidelines starting to emerge. However it is a thankless task when all attempts are subject to disruption and accusations. Per the proposed protocol, enforcing use of the task force and some dispute resolution process could work with community support. --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 07:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *:Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. ] (]) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::While observation does bare this Snowded, from an outside perspective it is only proper that we handle this dispute neutrally. HK and Þjóðólfr ] with Mister Flash. Yes there are other, more serious, issues with Mister Flash's on site activity but revert wrring is a serious matter and needs to be seen as such by those who engage in it. <br/>While I think there are positive aspects to your protocol I don't see it as a positive step for the project. We have the BI SE task force itself, ] for countering systemic bias, WP:WQA, WP:AN3, WP:AN, WP:RFP for policy issues and admin intervention and the ArbCom enforcement policies for the troubles rfar - which dealt with a similar (but not the same) naming dispute. We don't need a special group for this dispute. <br/>In short we have policies for behaviour and content already. If certain volunteers can't follow the rules then we will prevent them from disrupting others who will. Simple as that--] <sup>]</sup> 09:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *::Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Please point out where I edit warred with Flash - that's twice you've made that accusation. I believe you'll find that Flash was editting against concensus. You use 3 examples above, none of which can be regarded by any stretch as edit warring. And BTW, you must also take into account that for some of this time, BlackKite had ruled that no editor could revert a good edit especially if it involved references, which Flash continues to do on a regular basis. Many of my reverts were valid, and I made sure I didn't start an edit war. If you check the articles in question, you'll find other editors did far more reverting of Flash that I did. Sure, on occassion I have become frustrated with his behaviour, but I have never breached policy, or even warned or blocked for edit warring. Do not make the mistake of grouping me with disruptive editors. This is another example of an exaggerated and unfounded allegation, borne from the severe breaches of ] that accompany most of my edits. I'm no martyr, but please please please take the time to examine my behaviour (especially in the context of the very severe bullying, namecalling, and name blackening I have been subjected to over the past number of years), and if there's problems, provide diffs. I believe you'll conclude that my behaviour has not crossed any line or breached any policy. --] (]) 14:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse top|Extended discussion}} | |||
| :::::: , perhaps there would have been no need to ] for the same misdemeanor. ] (]) 10:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| ::::::I'm afraid disagreeing with actions that are taken does not allow you to break WP:EDITWAR. It is clear however that you have other interests and productively edit so I recommend you just disengage from Mister Flash. The community can handle this--] <sup>]</sup> 11:11, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :This comment is actually more of a personal attack then any of the diffs provided originally. Smartass, like a teenager, pissy, lalaland? That's some ageism, maybe commenting on mental health, and some silly insults. I don't think you should see any sanctions for this, but hopefully you compare your comments to the diffs. ] (]) 22:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I'd like to see diffs for the alleged "long period of removing the term wherever he (HighKing) could find it". As far as I can see, it is an unfairly-repeated exaggeration at its very best, and a real slur on a committed editor at worst. He began a bit rashly as Bardcom (a long time ago now, and I was one of those who called him up on being too 'prissy' in his reactions to some simply concerned requests, and I reverted any BI changes I disagreed with), but this repeated exaggeration of HK being a "extremist" editor is totally unfounded as far as I can see. Nobody saying it is proving it - it's just all words. | |||
| ::IP, how'd you get here? A person who calls things {{tq|bullshit}} and generally isn't in a good mood around others, being condescending: saying that they are pissy and being a smartass is ]. Teenagers are known for angst and pissy-ness and for having lip. Not insinuating they are a teenager, just that their behavior resembles that of. As you will recall, someone, somewhere in this derailed, miles-long trainwreck of an ANI report-turned morality seminar-turned COVID-19 ] + ] debate, said that there is no policy against profanity. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::If I tell User:ExampleA that they did an "amazing fuckin' job!" with a ], that is different than calling User:ExampleB a "{{!tq|fuckin' wanker}}" because they botched a ]. Context is everything, and I get how we are all connecting through the two-dimensional medium of simple text and thus misunderstandings tend to occur, but tones like these aren't that hard to discern. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::When ] shouts "fucking A!" after a job well done, that is not the same when he tells ] that he is a "fucking psycho murderer". <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Right, and there are no egregious uncivil diffs either. So, how is Hob acting like a pissy teenager, but you aren't? Catch my drift? This is a nothing burger report, and the reporter should get a boomerang. ] (]) 00:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Hob's profanity is not amiable. It sours the collaboration with other editors. most importantly, it is undue. Mine is not undue, and is a statement of truth. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Provide a diff of something you believe is sanctionable. Your pile of personal attacks is making it unclear what you are trying to say. It's ok when you cuss, but it's bad if someone else does it? What? ] (]) 01:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Profanity has nothing to do with it. The attitude is the thing that's wrong. The word "shit" can be said in many different ways. Some good, some bad. Have you even looked through these diffs of Hob's comments that have popped up through this ANI report? I also invite you to create an account. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::So, to recap, ]: It's not ''what'' it is said that causes problems, it's '''''how''''' it is said that matters, and in what context. I call a pissy editor pissy because it's great to ]. I can use profanity to describe someone's behaviour, and if I weigh words, I can even use it when addressing someone's contributions; i.e. "This is a really fuckin' well done article, User:Example". Hob calling someone's opinions {{tq|bullshit}} is not the right thing to do. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I think you may refer to this as calling a spade a spade. When someone says we should ignore science because it has a COI with Covid-19, their opinion is bullshit. This is what you are defending. ] (]) 03:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Eh, you can say "That's ] and ] and does not constitute ] as the subject is discussed in ]". Calling a spade a spade is easy, while addressing content and user contributions in dispute should require more, IDK, poise. I can say "fucking awesome work!" to an editor about their ] and no harm can be meant by that in any feasible situation, but when addressing questionable content, it should be done with nuance, eh? You can call someone's work shit whose work ''isn't'' shit, but you pretty much can't call someone's work "fucking amazing" whose work isn't amazing, as calling work "fucking amazing" provides pretty much no point of contention, unless you were just bullshitting them for no reason or trying to be nice about a novice's contributions that in terms of quality, reflect their inexperience. | |||
| :::::::::This entire ANI report has derailed into pretty much every unrelated topic save debate over what ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 03:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I'm not worried about contexts when "strong language" is ok, and you can stop giving needless examples. I don't believe anything that violates our guidelines on civility took place at all in the diffs originally provided. Hob was reasonable in tone, and sometimes people are exasperated by nonsense. Being annoyed but mostly polite isn't actually against the rules. You will need better diffs to change my mind. ] (]) 06:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::The COI pertains only to a few authors in particular with a personal stake in the outcome of the investigation. For example, the article uses several sources co-authored by Dr. Zhengliang Shi who {{tq|herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest}}<ref> Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/</ref> This is a secondary peer-reviewed article, and several editors who call LL fringe stated it is RS.<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z</ref><ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400</ref> ] (]) 08:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | |||
| It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing ] misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as ], and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as ]. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. ]]<sup>]</sup> 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The term "British Isles" was incorrectly-used all over Misplaced Pages, and Bardcom/HighKing had ''every right'' to go from article to article addressing it. He has always listened to article-related criticism, and avoided uses of the term which are obviously correct. Very occasionally he copy-edits away from a 'fair' use of the term (ie when various descriptive routes can easily be taken) - but again that is simply an editing right. As HighKing (perhaps a name to start afresh with) he has stood behind every form of BI-related taksforce, when others have shunned them for various reasons. | |||
| :Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. ] (]) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::In between there have often been people around who have insisted that the term 'British Isles' should be used widely and without censor - a situation which will never suit Misplaced Pages, or kind of consistent dictionary or encylcopedia. | |||
| :*I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) {{tq|bullshit}} to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that ''that'' was what led Lardlewarmers to try and , a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward ] situation. --] (]) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::If HighKing gets a topic ban I will take this to he top and shine a light on everyone involved. I'm tired of seeing the actual workers get the eventual heavy blows on Misplaced Pages. There is no sense in it at all. And I am not 'anti' the term British Isles, I'm very much a 'British' editor. Terms like British Isles are simply problematic. "British Isles" is both inherently potentially-misleading, and has different definitions on the actual islands it covers, and regarding its mixed cultural/political/geographical usage too. The only way Misplaced Pages is going to deal with those inherent problems is via the kind of Style and terminology Guidelines that every other serious encyclopedia adheres to in these situations. | |||
| :*:There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "]" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to ] and stop treating ]. ] (]) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*:The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a ''chronic'' and ''ongoing'' habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (]) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. ] (]) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed ''I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type''. As the Alien above said, you '''{{tq|Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning.}}''' now ]. ] ] 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to ], the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the ] contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ], as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the ''content'', not attacking the person (]). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.] (]) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::For the record I do ''agree with you'' that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been ] you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing ] or ], rather we depend on ] and ] to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to {{tq|steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person}}. However, that is not what I read in that . Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! ] ] 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (]) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.] (]) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. ] ] 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a {{tq|lesser offense}}. ] (]) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Until that guideline happens, topic-banning or unduly restricting any editors for reverting each other (eg punishing them outside of simple 3RR or Civility) would be punishing them for Misplaced Pages's own clear failings. The guideline will happen eventually (I'll be back on it soon myself), and until they are completed we need to stick to the Specific Examples page and 3RR. After we have those guidelines, admin will be much clearer about how to address any situations that could flare up (and these would be minimised anyway), and the future will be a lot less fractious, and actually quite-easily managed. ] (]) 12:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. ] (]) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Matt do you think as an Irishman I am unaware of the misuse of the term 'British Isles'? I agree with your points re the term except that we do already have a standard here on wp - verifiability. If a source uses a term we use it. If a source uses another term we use that. It's really very simple. Secondly, I am not out to blacken HK's name, but you should be arware that in cases of revert warring blocking "both sides" is a common and oft justified result. It takes two to tango. And if outsiders see a long term pattern of problems then that needs to be addressed. I am convinced that HK should be placed on a 1RR but that's all. Others have stated that we should consider a topic ban- I agree that the community should consider that but I'm not in favour of it. <br/>Also please note that threatening people who have come in to resolve an editwar with 'scrutiny' is not compatible with WP:CIVIL. But please feel free to bring this to ArbCom by all means. I remain convinced that the community can sort this out and I believe that theArbs would see it that way too--[[User:Cailil|<font color="#999999" | |||
| ::It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of ''this specific'' pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. ] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::What you are describing is a different idea: ]. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus. {{tq|the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ]}} {{tq|The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.}}(]) ] (]) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. ] (]) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Beyond what @] said, ''for all parties'', it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil ]. ] ] 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Indeed. ] (]) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should ''not'' be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. ] (]) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from ] or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - ] (]) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. ] (]) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I am in the diffs. | |||
| :::::I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - ] (]) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. ] (]) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above: {{tq|Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.}}] ] (]) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. ] (]) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. ] (]) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse top|title=Extended discussion}} | |||
| :::::How ironic that you would call out canvass, when you haven't contributed to this discussion previously, nor have you contributed to any prior notice board. See ], also please see ] if you logged out just to make {{tq|problematic edits}} here.... ] ] 05:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times, what are you talking about? IPs are only assigned for a few hours to weeks at a time usually. ] (]) 05:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@]: Okay let me say it another way... | |||
| :::::::* never in this history of this subject has an IP editor contributed. | |||
| :::::::* since January 1, ALL of the IP's who have contributed to ANI aside from your are blocked or had their contribution reverted. | |||
| :::::::* in the last 50,000 edits to this notice board, not a single anon has commented more than 34 times and that user was in Romania, whereas your IP shows US/Mobile, and they are currently blocked. Followed up an IPv6 with 30 edits, last participated in ANI back in May. Followed by a handful from the UK and other countries. The first one who is US based that was mobile has less than 12 edits, not hundreds. | |||
| :::::::* when you choose to edit anonymously (which is your privilege) you accept the reality that people will question your constructiveness because of a lack of established history. | |||
| :::::::But beyond all of that, aren't you simply deflecting from the question brought up? Perhaps @] has been lurking anonymously. As they have logged at least 31 edits to ANI alone . ] ] 05:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::There's a lot of strawmen there to knock down if I cared to derail this conversation, but I'm curious what question you think I'm deflecting? Your assumptions of bad faith are expected, but disappointing. ] (]) 06:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::What I claim you are deflecting KETTLE: Somehow you feel like you can call out someone who hasn’t contributed previously as canvassed, which is a ''serious allegation'', yet that is exactly what your user account history appears reflect. When challenged, you claimed to have edited hundreds of time, which was rebutted with facts, you resorted to allegations. Interestingly they very closely mirror only one other person who liberally throws around terms like strawman and bad faith. And really only one person at ANI has ever held this view so strongly they would plainly say bad faith was “expected” from me . If your not that person, then my query is how did you get involved in this conversation, and when exactly do you proffer that you last edited on here as an IP constructively? ''However, '''if''' you are indeed that person, let me warn you, such activity is considered sock puppetry.'' (Of course editing while accidentally logged out is a human mistake. But persisting and pretending otherwise, is not.) ] ] 07:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Don't know what this thread is about, but point 2 and 3 seem wrong - none of my IPs have been blocked, and I am an anon that has, in the to this board I made 38 of them (all edits by IPs starting with 2804:F14), let alone in the last 50 thousand edits. | |||
| ::::::::Maybe I'm misunderstanding your claims. – ] (]) (]) 06:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I think my detail for you was accidentally edited out. You would be an IPv6 from a different country, so unless this IP user is claiming they have rotating IPs hourly because they’re using an international VPN connecting via various countries, I find their claim that they just stumbled upon this conversation dubious at best. ] ] 06:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Also in case you were not aware, while mobile IP addresses can and do change, they still remain with that mobile carrier. So while your ip address will change, who all of those addresses are registered to will not. What I mean is that will your current IP goes back to a US based cell network, you’re not going to get a new IP address that is registered in Japan or even one in the US that is through a completely different network (a few technical exceptions exist, but they’re nevertheless evident). Same with home internet as well. And of course, most work addresses are persistent. All that to say, a claim of “my ip address changes” does not mean that a persona cannot reasonably determine if you’ve contributed to ANI from the a network. ] ] 07:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::When did I say I stumbled upon this thread? Provide the diff. You are putting words in my mouth and casting aspersions. I said my IP changes as a response to you saying I was a new editor. You are creating an elaborate narrative and getting strangely defensive. ] (]) 07:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I will gladly provide the answe after you answer the two questions I have previously asked to you. First was about KETTLE, and the second asked you to substantiate your claim of {{tq|I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times}} by providing your last contrustive ip edit to this notice board. ] ] 07:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Please read ]. I'm not going to link all of my comments across IPs here for you. If you really believe I was canvassed, you need some diffs, or maybe you should strike your aspersions. ] (]) 07:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::All I can do is laugh at your replies. More KETTLE behavior. You claim don’t have to proof anything per SATISFY, yet in the same breath you demand such of others. More ad hominem, deflection. Zero actual replies. ] ] 08:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::What are you talking about? I asked one question, got one answer and it was done. It was you who started a long thread full of bad faith assumptions and no diffs. Provide diffs, or kindly stop bludgeoning. ] (]) 08:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | |||
| {{reflist}} | |||
| size="2">'''Cailil'''</font>]] <sup>]</sup> 17:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Cailil, if you consider that the term British Isles is "misused" (in Misplaced Pages?) then you really should consider recusal from this debate. Yes, the term is used in error, though not often, but I have yet to see anywhere in Misplaced Pages where it's being misused - a word that implies abuse. ] (]) 18:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ===Send to AE?=== | |||
| :::::::::People do seem to forget the amount of unquestionably good work HK has done - the work we'd all (even if reluctantly) agree was clearly beneficial to Misplaced Pages. Who wants a term used incorrectly? When he first addressed BI it was misused (used incorrectly, whatever) a lot. Less so now, obviously. IMO, to go up to 3RR to include "British Isles" in places where it could be extra-ambiguous, not greatly needed, and liable to cause offence, is not clever at all. There are simply other terms we can use. I think it sould be the term for geographical/archipelago use, and a guideline should state this. I know you've put it in places - if it is in a 'political' use, I'd like that to change via a guideline. Muliti-meaning terms need to be handled properly, per other encyclopdia's like Britannica. The main thing is that the term does not get outlawed. ] (]) 20:49, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to ] since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. ] (]) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Someone would have to attempt the 1RR before I'd bother Arbcom, obviously. Are you saying you don't think the Arbs would support a BI guideline? I would have to disagree on that. | |||
| :Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories". | |||
| :::::::Regarding my comment on "shining a light" (hardly a real civility infringement surely?) - I didn't mean "everyone" literally. What I meant is that I won't stand back and let HighKing be punished unfairly alone (or even along with Mister Flash). I won't accept such injustice, and opening up other's edits on BI should be enough to stop things from developing. You (and those who support such punitive actions) do need to see how strongly I feel about dishing out 1RR's and topic bans - because I won't be alone on this, especially regarding an editor with a law-abiding background like HighKing's. I'd like to know how you can be so "convinced" that HK should be on 1RR? What is your justification for what is in my eyes '''a very very very serious act'''? Editors are not make of clay - you cannot just mould them into shape to solve an external problem when they haven't done anything wrong. And who says he should have a actual topic ban?! I would see that as nothing less than a human rights infringement - he has done nothing to deserve that at all. Was it actually an uninvolved person, or just someone who counter-edits him on BI? Editors are real people who invest hours of their life to Misplaced Pages - they ''have'' to be treated with human respect. | |||
| :That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - ] (]) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The IP made no such claim? - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - ] (]) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::FYI ] is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. ] (]) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. ] (]) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Do you actually have compelling diffs where HighKing has failed to be a civil and law abiding editor? How many times has he been blocked or warned for civility? This would need to be shown. | |||
| ::While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why ] is policy. | |||
| ::Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. ]. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. ] (]) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I '''second''' to motion to bring this to ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Edit warring to prevent an RFC == | |||
| :::::::IMO, to give HighKing 1RR is simply to use an iron fist on a committed editor, to paper over a crack that will only grow. So why is it even being suggested? Imo it is ultimately down to a problem that scars Misplaced Pages throughout: the single-minded faith in the verifiability rule. X says Y so the resultant Z is the truth for this sentence. Once you establish the 'truth' you can take it anywhere. It is a philosophical nightmare. Single-minded faith in V is the single worst enemy of Misplaced Pages, and this very AN page is full of examples of it. Some people think that can simply cripple the annoying editors, and then V will win out and save the day again: in fact V is abused evey day and every where. Would you allow every permutation of meaning of "British Isles", simply because there is a "verified source" for each meaning? Perhaps two different meanings in the very same article? Why not? And what if someone just wants to use "British Isles" as a descriptive term without a source being needed? Verification is as much a curse as it is a benefit - it must always be used with caution and a starting point only. One day Policy will properly reflect that, instead of being so utterly flimsy on the matter. ] (]) 20:49, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| @] has removed an RFC tag from ] now within . | |||
| ::::::::Matt regarding the suggested 1RR do you understand ]? Secondly in regard to your discussion of sources do you understand WP:NOR and how it works with WP:NPOV (especially WP:UNDUE)? <br/>We do not need a new policy wikipedia about terminology whether it has to do with the use of 'British Isles' or 'French Polynesia'. We have polices and standards. Misplaced Pages is not here to correct the wrongs and/or the perceived wrongs of the world. We reflect reliable sources about notable subjects in a neutral manner, full stop.--] <sup>]</sup> 22:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Why are you asking if I understand core policy like Edit warring, No Point of View, No Original Research, and Undue Weight? There is 'WP' somewhere on doing that to an experienced editor: it's not considered particularly polite to frame it like that. ] stops at the first line for people who want to get their point in at all costs - any long-standing copy editor will tell you that. V is a bugger to challenge, despite red flag (the best part of weight). When we know that V is so challenged, why rely on it to save us after we find ourselves in a position where someone like yourself wants to force 1RR on a decent editor? Just because V ''should'' work? It's just not logical. | |||
| ] provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list. | |||
| :::::::::Misplaced Pages has a great many guidelines in MOS - one more on using "British Isles" will not hurt anyone. Misplaced Pages ''does'' need it I'm afraid. V is not a "Full stop" for me. Misplaced Pages was designed to empower people, ''not'' mislead them - we must never forget that amongst all the 'WP'. Despite the cries of "no no we must NOT right wrongs!!!". Simply expecting accuracy should not be seen as a partisan thing. Most of the problems, sins and failings of Misplaced Pages effectively hide behind (or stem from) the inadequacies of policy. Or else why are they there? And why would you be suggesting 1RR on someone such as HighKing? | |||
| We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an ] problem or a ] that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm ''not'' saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in ''some'' cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute. | |||
| :::::::::1RR is not in ], nor is it in policy anywhere: you want to do it because policy has failed. HighKing hasn't failed anything. Simply re-trying different copy or reverting someone happens all the time - it's how WIkipedia improves. It is NOT edit warring, unless there is bad intent and a failure to discuss, or it gets to 3RR. All per ]. Effectively it's another ambiguity, as almost all reverting/replacing could be called edit warring (and probably has at some point). The question is - do we use are ''heads'' over difficult matters and look at guidelines, or just focus solely on V, quote downwards, then punish when things go wrong? ] (]) 00:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Matt, I apologize if I came across as antagonistic towards you. But you seem to missing the core point I'm making about how casual, wholesale reverting ''is'' a problem. Edit wars, be they fast or slow, degrade our articles' histories. There is rarely one user involved in an edit war and when 'all sides' have been educated, warned, blocked, restricted etc we must take action to prevent article's histories or parts there of being rendered useless. <br/>I disagree with you as regards the MOS, but that's my view. If you want to propose it at the MOS go ahead. I don't see a need for it, as WP:UNDUE and WP:V should cover it, but I respect your view - perhaps others will be more supportive. Also, and just FYI, 1RR is spelled out ]--] <sup>]</sup> 01:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Those battles (they pop up from time to time) end up being a stage in the current process - I've seen the flurries happen (people may push 3RR, but they are seeing who if anyone comes to support, which can happen of course), and then they focus on the SE page, and then a solution is found (sometimes this is all smooth, other times its more protracted). It's the various 'words' said in between from some parties which is the most disappointing aspect imo (HK has taken things on the SE page admin would look at on article talk). But it's just the way it goes - the term is a real problem on Wikpiedia. A guideline has actually been worked on, on and off, for a long time. It has a couple of major issues to iron out (and the current version is a bit convoluted), but I'm certain that eventually something will be proposed. There is strong support both for and against having one. ] (]) 01:39, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the ]. See you tomorrow. ] (]) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Sanctions=== | |||
| As discussed above: it is proposed that Mister Flash is either topic banned from the British Isles naming topic dispute (widely construed) and restricted from all contact and communication with User:HighKing or User:Þjóðólfr, or site banned. <br/>That User:HighKing is either placed on revert restriction (1RR) <s>or topic banned from the British Isles naming topic dispute (widely construed). Either sanction would come with him being</s> restricted from all contact and communication with User:Mister Flash. <b/>And that User:Þjóðólfr is either placed on revert restriction (1RR) and/or topic banned from the British Isles naming topic dispute (widely construed). Either sanction would come with him being restricted from all contact and communication with User:Mister Flash. <br/>I would suggest considering his perfromance here that if Mister Flash is not site banned that he is additionally placed on civity parole--] <sup>]</sup> 09:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I asked above, and I'll ask again. This is about Flash. Are we extending it to include me and User:Þjóðólfr? You've provided no basis for calling for a topic ban or 1RR for my behaviour. It's also noteworthy that other editors involved in the Task Force have not backed up woolly allegations against me, yet you are continuing to try to push through a punishment. This doesn't reflect well on the project, or on the due diligence we'd expect from elected admins. --] (]) 15:00, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::HK, both you and Þjóðólfr edit warred with Mister Flash. He didn't do that alone and both you and Þjóðólfr seem to have missed the point about how serious edit-warring is taken. But I am not seeking to puinish you this is a preventative measure until you can demonstrate that you understand what you were doing wrong. Also please bear in mind 3 sysops have posted here - we're all looking for further input this section gives the community a choice of sanctions and a space to voice their opinions. I've stated above that both myself and Sir Fozzie think we should examine the possibility of wider sanctions rather than just for Mister Flash and that both of us are not sure whether you should be topic banned. I personally don't think so but I do think the wider community should be consulted. Please be clear this is for the edit warring with Mister Flash that is shown above in the diffs I found. His behaviour has been duly noted--] <sup>]</sup> 17:13, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Sorry Cailil, I have been in general agreement with you so far. However HighKing has been prepared to submit to the discipline of proposing changes at the task force rather than making them directly. He has also abided by the decisions there, something which is not the case with Mister Flash. I suggest a better approach would be to enforce use of the task force, with a ban on any aware editor (in practice that is all those engaged), making any changes prior to agreement there. You could make that more specific to editors who have edit warred, ie preventing them from making the changes. --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Snowded there is nothing to prevent you from formulating a remedy for HK along these lines for community discussion. That is all I've done above (and BTW I was asking outsiders for input as User:2over0 was). However, your suggestion seems like something the community might consider reasonable. I prefer sanctions to be cleaner - from experience that's what works. But there's always a first time--] <sup>]</sup> 23:00, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Which is pretty much the practice the Task Force asked editors to abide by. With minor exceptions, it worked pretty well to a point. Twas the lack of enforcement that made it difficult to continue at times. (Leaving aside the constant abuse, the editing against consensus, the lack of engagement, etc.) If the Task Force had more discussion with the idea of creating guidelines and more editors submitted examples I think this might work. I'd certainly sign up to it (on the basis that the original rules regarding civility and no stonewalling are *strictly* enforced). --] (]) 23:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::We musn't forget that the Specific Examples page in the taskforce was optional for HighKing and everyone involved. My understanding was that HK readily volunteered to it, as he has with all of the taskforce since it started. There is no law on Misplaced Pages to say people cannot edit the term "British Isles" without opening a discussion first. The real sense in the SE page was that it got debate away from the article talk pages, saving them from being locked for the duration of the debate (like at ] when Tharkuncoll was involved, just before the taskforce started). I can't see how Misplaced Pages can actually manage forcing people to use something like the SE page though, even if it was the right approach. For me the guideline is the only solution. Until then though, we should encourage each other to stick with the SE page, and I'll try and look it more myself too. The more people who weigh in, the more effective it is. ] (]) 22:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I agree with you about the task force - but is Snowded wants to put it for discussion as an alternative suggestion to mine that's fine with me--] <sup>]</sup> 23:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC. | |||
| ::::Just to restate what I said above - the diffs you found do *not* show me edit warring with Flash. --] (]) 20:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith. | |||
| ::::You also state above that you are not setting out to "blacken" my name. But in actual fact, that's what appears to be happening. You say it takes two to tango, but in this case you'll find that Flash edited against consensus on the Task Force and several editors reverted his persistent edit warring. Why pick me out - I wouldn't even be counted as the editor that has reverted his edits the most, or even the 2nd or 3rd most. Just because Flash has been levelling his guns at me for an extended period of time does *not* mean that you should apply sanctions to me. You should not even suggest it! Because less diligent admins and readers will just pick up and say "Oh, but there must have been something in it. No smoke without fire, etc". Please. Please. Please. Listen to the other editors that have worked on the Task Force. Or that I've "disagreed" with in the past. Look at my edit history - especially in the context of the abuse I've been the target of. And stop trying to, intentionally or not, lump my editing and behaviour alongside that of Flash. That is wrong and unfair. --] (]) 20:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. ] (]) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. ] (]) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Axad12}}, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have ''absolutely no'' conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. ] (]) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Axad12}}, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. {{u|WhatamIdoing}}, a {{tl|trout}} for ]ing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template. | |||
| ::::The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. ] (]) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be ''falsely accused'' of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that {{tpq|exceptionally serious abuse}}? ] (]) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request. | |||
| :I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request). | |||
| :As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. ] (]) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? ] (]) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content. | |||
| :::Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. ] (]) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::"Asking a second time" is not ]. ] (]) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. ] (]) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the ]. See, e.g., {{xt|An editor ''gaming the system'' is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support.}} Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy. | |||
| ::::::I also direct your attention to the item that says {{xt|Gaming the system may include...]ing the consensus-building process}}. ] (]) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to ], which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. ] (]) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not {{tq|highly misleading}}. | |||
| :::I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. ] (]) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? ] (]) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. ] (]) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved. | |||
| ::I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. ] (]) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when ] can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one ] book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer. | |||
| :::But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my ] experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. ] (]) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself. | |||
| ::::It isn't really relevant here but actually I ''didn't'' expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. ] (]) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor ] with {{u|Graywalls}}, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article. | |||
| :::::::::::::::HK I am not out to blacken your name. And on an extend review of multiple pages (which I'll post here in about an hour) I've decided to alter my position. I've striken my suggestion that you should be topic banned. I however do believe the rest of eth community should *look* at your revert pattern and I suggest a 1RR for 6 months. An alternative would be a voluntary revert cap on your BI reverts ''per page'' (rather than per day). On review this is not much different to your actual practice. And if there's a problem with reverts out of order bring it to ANI or to my attention or another admin if I'm not around. I would be satisfied with that - as long as the community is. My view of Þjóðólfr and Mister Flash has not improved. And extended review of edit patterns shows Flash wikihounding you and Þjóðólfr following and revert warring with him. That's a serious issue--] <sup>]</sup> 23:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::OK, peace. I accept you aren't out to blacken my name on purpose, but from experience I've seen that once someone calls you a duck (and especially an admin, and most especially here), you're a duck. Thanks though for reviewing my edits. You'd be surprised how many times my behaviour is made to fit the accusations. You'll no doubt have seen that a lot of different things have been tried in the past, including 1RR. I've no problem with attempts to try to limit disruption and I've always agreed and adhered to the community processes. But also note that a sanction pointed at me will be seen as a punishment for a breach of policy or rules, and this is how other editors and admins will view it. Context is often forgotten. Singling me out in this way would beg the question as to why? Other editors who have worked with me (and not always agreed with me) on this topic are saying to you that I'm not disruptive, I engage, I remain civil, etc. This started off talking about Flash's behaviour, and he neatly tried to turn it into a content dispute, or that he was merely retaliating to provocation. This isn't true, and I believe Þjóðólfr grew frustrated and took action on occasion when he couldn't understand why Flash could edit against consensus, revert without discussion, revert while removing references, etc, and all without any sanction. I've also pointed this out in the past to admins such as BlackKite but he retired and I would guess partially because he was fed up with behaviour such as we've seen from Flash. I'll back off this discussion now, since I'm happy that you've reviewed, etc. --] (]) 00:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue. | |||
| :::::<s>HK, let's cut to the quick; if you'll volunteer not to junk British Isles from Misplaced Pages again (unless its use is absolutely in error) I will never revert your edits, I will never add British Isles under any cicumstances and I won't engage in any activity that others might construe as wikihounding. Whilst I am the subject of this thread, your actions are instrumental in the debate, so it's only natural that they are also being highlighted. Do we have an agreement? Surely it's not a lot to ask that you don't remove British Isles? Oh yes, and I acknowledge that many of my posts directed at you have been over the top and uncalled for, and for them I apologise now. </s>] (]) 21:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Mister Flash, you're very much mistaken if you believe this is solely about you and me. Nor is it about "British Isles". This is about your behaviour within this project since you started. Now that your behaviour is put under a microscope and editors and admins are discussing serious sanctions, you offer a belated apology to me (under duress). I'd like to accept the apology, but I've no reason to believe it is genuine or made in good faith. I'm sure others wouldn't be foolish enough to either. BTW, it doesn't help by starting with calling for me to "volunteer not to '''junk''' British Isles from Misplaced Pages" and trying to associate your behaviour with mine or trying to make you that somehow I have caused you to behave in this way. I do not bait you, or wikihound you. Your proposal is also transparent since your stated aim is to prevent any editor from discussing any article in any way which might result in the article being rewritten and the term "British Isles" being removed. Thankfully it seems you caught the attention of an admin who decided enough was enough. --] (]) 22:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Gentlemen disengage from one another please--]<sup>]</sup> 23:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Why, and why now? I thought they are supposed to talk? I don't get all this, but I'm very concerned about it. I'm really worried about big heavy power moves on the horizon as I've invested a lot of time in BI. ] (]) 01:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Stage one of ] (that doesn't mean don't talk ever again - just the equivalent of "break it up"). This page isn't for personalized statements--] <sup>]</sup> 01:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Not sure what you mean by "heavy power moves". I've stated clear what I'm suggesting. Community sanctions - that's it. I believe that will solve the problem without the need for anything more. drop me a talk page line if you're worried about something specific--] <sup>]</sup> 01:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I'm just worried that a big ruling of some kind will come and essentially make the guideline harder to achieve. The taskforce and SE page were needed and positive ideas, but the guideline is the only thing a this stage that is actually a 'positive' thing (in itself), and the only thing I can envisage working.] (]) 01:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Neither I and nor another admin would have such power. AFAIK even ArbCom could only propose a MFD for the page - so I don't think that's likely to happen--] <sup>]</sup> 16:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (]) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative. | |||
| Well I did try for an agreement, so carry on; topic ban, site ban, whatever. It makes no difference. This will not end here. The British Isles removals will no doubt carry on, and with a renewed vigor, since it seems they are being endorsed. I predict a never ending dispute, after all, it's been going on for at least two years already. The opportunity is here, now, to put an end to it, but the deletionists are reserving their right to continue unrestricted; the opportunity appears to be fading away. ] (]) 00:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Misplaced Pages is not a place for silly deals. You should be careful here that speaking for others doesn't make you look like you run more than one account. When the taskforce started Mister Flash wasn't around, remember. And framing two years in terms of being "therefore never ending" looks iffy too. What about before then? HighKing actually advocates a guideline, so things would surely end with that for him. 01:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| '''Proposal''': Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and ], Axad12 and Graywalls should be ] from the Breyers article and its talk page. | |||
| :Place ''British Isles usage'' under the 1RR limit. ] (]) 00:38, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| It's not a good idea to misrepresent other editors Mister Flash - that's the 2nd time you've misrepresented me in 24 hours. For the record nobody is endorsing any content issue. This is about behaviour; edit-warring specifically. And as I've said feel free to others open an RfAr. But the community should be able to handle this--] <sup>]</sup> 00:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm not misrepresenting you or any other editor. Stroll on! Is my phraseology so difficult to understand? It's the process that is currently ensuing that I'm commenting on, not you. ] (]) 00:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| (outdent)Shouldn't someone tell Þjóðólfr seeing as there's discussions about banning him? It's more than a little concerning that this ANI, originally set up to discuss Mister Flash's behaviour, has been expanded beyond the original scope, and that the editors being discussed haven't been officially notified. --] (]) 13:11, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :He was advised if you check his talk page, but has deleted it along with other material --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 13:14, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *<s>'''Support'''</s>. ] (]) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===For outside input sanctions re: Mister Flash and Þjóðólfr=== | |||
| :Strike as withdrawn for Axad12 ABAN to concur with {{u|Cullen328}} and the ''oppose'' decisions below. | |||
| As above it is suggest that that Mister Flash is either '''topic banned''' from the British Isles naming topic dispute (widely construed) and restricted from all contact and communication with User:HighKing and User:Þjóðólfr, or '''site banned'''. <br/>That User:Þjóðólfr is placed on revert restriction (1RR) and/or topic banned from the British Isles naming topic dispute (widely construed). Either sanction would come with him being restricted from all contact and communication with User:Mister Flash. If User:HighKing is willing to voluntarily cap his reverts I would be satisfied with that. But please refer above for other suggestions. <br/>Note to users related to or involved with the dispute please post in the above section entitled 'sanctions'--] <sup>]</sup> 00:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{u|Graywalls}} is a separate case remaining undecided here. Over the 2024 article and talk page history at Breyers, this user was the main purveyor of disinformation, and has not acknowledged his talk page hostility and errors of judgment, despite abundant presentation of facts, sources, explanations, and challenges for information below. Graywalls should commit to abstain from editing the Breyers article for a given period, as Axad has done. ] (]) 00:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| For evidence see:{{User:Cailil/British_Isles_naming_dispute_edit_war}} | |||
| ::{{re|Zefr}}, your domineering and territoriality to that article is a big part of escalation and if anyone, it should be you who should refrain from it. Blatantly disregarding consensus and going so far as saying {{tq|Statements of facts supported by reliable sources do not need talk page consensus.|tq}} as done in which goes to show you feel you're above consensus. You weren't persuaded until you were corrected by two administrors {{u|Aoidh}} and {{u|Philknight}} on the matter on the belief you're entitled to insert certain things against consensus. You also were blocked for the fifth time for edit warring in that article, with previous ones being at different articles with dispute with other editors, which shows your lack of respect for community decision making. ] (]) 17:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:'''Oppose''': I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard. | |||
| *:I have not {{tq|ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate}}, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them. | |||
| *:Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024. | |||
| *:I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make. | |||
| *:Also, the idea that I made a {{tq|hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC}} is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect. | |||
| *:I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time. | |||
| *:Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at ], but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. ] (]) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. , because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see ] for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling ]. {{re|Aoidh}} also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see ] ] (]) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. ] (]) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I'd just like to echo that sentiment. I'm all in favour of consensus. | |||
| *::My position on this article hasn't been motivated by a partisan view on Propylene Glycol but has simply been in relation to serving the consensus position as it stood at the time. That is the approach I hope I adopt on all Misplaced Pages articles. If the consensus alters on this article (as seems likely) then I'll adopt the same approach in relation to serving the ''new'' consensus. | |||
| *::My primary area of interest on this website is COI issues. I'm simply not interested in content disputes or in pushing any kind of POV on Misplaced Pages. I'm not the sort of user who flagrantly disregards a newly emerging consensus by editing contrary to the outcome of an RfC. | |||
| *::I'd welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that going forwards (i.e. without an article ban). ] (]) 06:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::* The mention by Graywalls for an RfC on 27 Dec had no influence on the one existing. As an uncomplicated process, an editor truly sincere in having community input would have posed a simple objective question. Graywalls, why didn't you take 5 minutes and create the RfC question you wanted? What would have been your RfC question? | |||
| *::Specifically for propylene glycol (you are still defending its use in the article by - see comments about this book in the RfC): {{tq|what do you believe propylene glycol does in a frozen dessert and what would you prefer the article to say about propylene glycol? I have asked for this clarification on the talk page many times and in the DRN, but you ignored the opportunity to collaborate and clarify.}} | |||
| *:: | |||
| *::Your reverts in article history and combative talk page behavior over months revealed a persistent intent to disparage the Breyers article, focus on the "antifreeze" slur (mainly promoting ), and restore a skeletal version having no sources more recent than 2018 , after That version also has misinformation under the section 'Ice cream', falsely stating that Breyers changed their ice cream ingredients by using other additives, which in fact, were used to evolve a new category of frozen desserts not intended to be ice cream. I believe you know this, but you and Axad12 persisted to favor misinformation for the article. | |||
| *::The RfC I provided came from steps in the lead of ]: 1) generally poor talk page progress, where one editor seeking facts verified by current sources was opposed by Graywalls, Adax12, and {{u|NutmegCoffeeTea}}, all defending a version including "antifreeze"; 2) an RSN post where Graywalls argued that a web link by the Seattle PI made the Motley Fool article an RS; 3) for which Graywalls, Axad12, and NutmegCoffeeTea abstained from collaboration to improve the article; 4) , which appears to be <u>willfully ignored</u> by Axad12 and Graywalls, who responded only with hostility and defiance against the facts; 5) seeking third opinions from admins, first by BD2412 (talk page on 29-30 Nov) and by , resulting in verbose trolling by these two users. Axad12's response on 27 Dec was to . | |||
| *::Axad12 and Graywalls should be ABANNED from the Breyers article for exhibiting 1) hostility on the talk page to good faith proposals for making the article better, and 2) persistence to perpetuate misinformation on propylene glycol. Simply, what history shows that either editor has tried to improve the Breyers article? Both users meet most of the definitions of ] for the article, its talk page, and the RfC. ] (]) 18:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Zefr, I've already indicated on several occasions that I welcome and support the developing new consensus. Graywalls has made a similar comment below. That being the case, I don't really see what purpose an article ban would be intended to serve. | |||
| *:::Admittedly there has been some quite heated disagreement over recent months, but it seems that we all now have the robust talkpage consensus that we were hoping for in one way or another and that all three of us are happy to move forward in support of that consensus. | |||
| *:::You were clearly in the minority for quite a long time and I can appreciate that you found that experience frustrating. However, to continue to make allegations above of bad faith, trolling, tagteaming, etc. about those who constituted the valid majority for several months is just an attempt to perpetuate strife on an issue which is now, as far as I can see, satisfactorily resolved. ] (]) 19:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Filed under: sometimes you hurt articles by treating COI editors as the enemy. The problem here is two users who should really know better edit-warring over the course of ''months'' to reinstate TikTok diet influencer silliness into a Misplaced Pages article, repeatedly reinstating ] content (implicitly, if not explicitly). We currently treat a little "avoid antifreeze" bubble in a diet book (which includes Breyers in a list of brands) and a book published by one of RFK Jr's antivax publishers as ] for including the insinuation that an FDA-approved and much-conspiratorialized additive is harmful. They've been repeatedly removed, but two editors keep putting them back, whether because of a misunderstanding of ]/] or in pursuit of COI purification. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 13:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I take your point but I think you're misjudging the situation somewhat. Prior to the opening of the current RfC it was approximately 6 or 7 users in favour of inclusion vs 3 or 4 favouring exclusion. I only reverted the attempts at exclusion because those attempts were contrary to the talk page consensus. | |||
| *:I'm perfectly open to the suggestion that that consensus position was wrong but the simple fact of the matter was that there was ''at that time'' no consensus in favour of exclusion. | |||
| *:It has only been in the last couple of days that the requesting editor has been able to demonstrate a consensus in favour of exclusion. And that's great, I have no problem with that at all. In fact I welcome it. | |||
| *:My understanding is that editors wishing to make changes to article text should not do so if there is a consensus against what they are trying to do, and that under such circumstances an edit can be (indeed ''should be'') reverted. If I'm mistaken on that score then I'm perfectly happy to take instruction. However, I really want to stress that my actions were based primarily upon that reasoning and were made in good faith. ] (]) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::@], you should not revert something because other editors want it to be reverted. You should only make content changes that you personally support. This is necessary for BRD to work. See ] for an explanation of why. ] (]) 17:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:{{re|Rhododendrites}}, the antifreeze matter is ] since I believe everyone's pretty much agreed it doesn't need to be in there. Zefr has taken issues with me, Axad12, NutMegCoffee and possibly some others. They've tried to get the article "set in place" to their preferred version, but that was declined admin {{u|Daniel Case}} who determined it to be content dispute ]. Zefr inferring alleging I was <s>"uncooperative"</s> <u>not collaborating/cooperating in the way that he was hoping</u> in DR, but I don't believe that to be so. <u>There was nothing intentional on my part to not cooperate.</u> I'll see if {{re|Robert McClenon}} would like to share their observation on that since they closed the dispute. | |||
| *:https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Breyers/Archive_2#c-Rusalkii-20240814014600-Inkian_Jason-20240801145900 here's another uninvolved editoring erring on the side of inclusion. A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus. Reading through the current plus the archived discussions, up until the RfC, the general consensus is in support of having PG mention and Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus. As I mentioned, if consensus changes with the RfC, I'm not opposed to going with that. ] (]) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) (adjusted ] (]) 13:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)) | |||
| *::For the record, I never stated the word "uncooperative" at DRN or the Breyers talk page, but rather "non-collaborative", as discussed in the thread with Robert McClenon below. | |||
| *::"Set in place to their preferred version" and "Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus" should be translated to using "facts verified by reliable sources", which is the simple goal for the Breyers article that Graywalls has obstructed over months. | |||
| *::It's incredible that Graywalls says even today above, knowing the comments on the RfC and months of being presented with facts and sources about why propylene glycol is safely used in thousands of manufactured foods: ''"A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus."'' | |||
| *::Here's your chance to tell everyone: | |||
| *::Why do you feel propylene glycol was used in Breyers frozen desserts (in 2013, not since)? What concern do you have about it, and what government or scientific source says it's unsafe in the amounts regulated by federal laws? Give a sentence here that you think meets consensus and uses a reliable source. ] (]) 01:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::You're right, you did not use that specific word. I've corrected my response due to wording. ] (]) 13:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===A Non-Mediator's Statement=== | |||
| Thank you for compiling this, Cailil. I think that the interaction bans are definitely in order. Additionally, I think I could get behind the proposed topic ban for Mister Flash and a 1RR revert restriction for Þjóðólfr in this topic area (so far as I am aware there is no need to restrict their behaviour elsewhere in the project). If disruption continues in other areas, sanctions may be extended. I see a smattering of worrisome edits from HighKing (''e.g.'' , ), but nothing in the last few months that rises to the level of ]; I think that a friendly informal warning to tread carefully in articles related to nationalism will suffice. - ] <small>(])</small> 10:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I am not entirely sure why ] has pinged me about this dispute, saying that I "closed this dispute". The accuracy of the statement that I "closed this dispute" depends on what is meant by "this dispute". | |||
| I closed the ] thread, ], on 12 December. I obviously didn't resolve a dispute that has been continuing for another three weeks, and the claim that I closed the dispute looks to me like an attempt to confuse the jury. ] had opened the DRN thread on 3 December, complaining about the insertion of the word ] and of the mention of ]. I was not entirely sure beyond the mention of ] what the issues were. There were questions about what the procedure was for handling a ] dispute; I think that Zefr was said to be the one. There was a long question that may have been about whether ] is voluntary; DRN is voluntary. Then Zefr said that the case could be withdrawn because no one else was commenting. The disputants other than Zefr never did say exactly what the article content issues were, perhaps because they didn't want to discuss article content, and were not required to discuss article content. If anyone is implying that I resolved or settled anything, I have no idea what it was. | |||
| ====modified proposal==== | |||
| Per the invitation above, a modified proposal based on engagement with this issue over a couple of years now. I've got the scars .... | |||
| * Mister Flash topic banned from British Isles naming dispute (widely construed) per above for a period of three months | |||
| * Do not revert a revert restriction for this topic area (better than a 1RR) for all editors once informed (similar to Troubles) | |||
| * HighKing required to continue recent practice of posting proposed changes to working group first and not making changes to articles without '''confirmed''' consensus on each change. If this is broken then progressive topic bans follow | |||
| * Strong enforcement of civility on working group pages | |||
| * Clear statement that the working group is there to use cases to create some simple rules (per Matt's comments) over the next few months) | |||
| Ideally some admin involvement on the working group would help. I'm happy to maintain the pages and draw in admin support if needed, but also happy if someone else takes it on. --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 12:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I've more scars than you. Based on what appears to work, and what doesn't, I'd modify the proposal as follows: | |||
| :*Mister Flash site banned until such time as he agrees to adhere to the basic WP policies that all editors are expected to accept. | |||
| :*"Rules of Participation" are published. The rules will be clearly laid out and unambiguous, and be restricted to civility and processes of collaboration and how to reach consensus, as well as a statement outlining the objective of the creation of usage guidelines. Rules are likely to contain the following: | |||
| ::#No addition or deletion of the term British Isles to articles without consensus of the Task Force | |||
| ::#Strong enforcement of civility. Breaches result in an escalating series of blocks. Breaches are likely to include any comments relating to an editor, and not relating to the content or article at hand. | |||
| ::#Editors must argee to the rules in order to participate. Activity by a notified editor who does not sign up to the rules may result in a progressive series of sanctions. | |||
| :--] (]) 16:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I see that the dispute either was continuing in other forums for three weeks, or has reopened. I see that ] edit-warred to prevent an RFC from running, making vague but noisy statements about ]. I don't know who is said to be working for Unilever or for anyone else. It is clear that this dispute is longer on antagonism than on clarity. ] (]) 22:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Hold on please=== | |||
| I have information regarding ], who I have very good reason to believe is a sock of another editor with an extensive prior history of edit warring in related areas, including twice being put on probation from an ArbCom case. I don't have sufficient time to prepare a SPI case today but it will be done tomorrow. As the result of the SPI case should have a direct bearing on the sanctions here, I request any decision is put on hold until then. Thanks. <font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 14:38, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Open a ] if you can provide evidence--] <sup>]</sup> 16:02, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :{{re|Robert McClenon}}, I pinged you, because I felt you'd be a good commentator to evaluate whether you also felt I was "not cooperative" in the process as Zefr says. I tried to participate, but it got closed shortly after I posted a comment in it. ] (]) 22:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Sockpuppett == | |||
| ::Was that purposely mis-stated to be provocative and mislead the discussion here? | |||
| ::I said you were <u>non-collaborative</u>, which describes your behavior throughout your editing history on the Breyers article, its talk page, and the DRN. You refused collaboration at DRN, which is the whole point of the process. DRN FAQ: ''"refusing participation can be perceived as a refusal to collaborate, and is not conducive to consensus-building."'' | |||
| ::You were notified about the , and you posted a general notice about it on the , so you were aware of the process, but ignored it. Meanwhile, your editing history over 6-12 Dec shows dozens of edits, | |||
| ::You made no attempt to collaborate at DRN, posting only one off-topic | |||
| ::I requested closure of the DRN on 12 Dec due to non-participation by you and the others. On 13 Dec, . cc: {{u|Robert McClenon}}. ] (]) 00:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|Zefr}}, As been said to you by others, participation is not mandatory. Other editors are not required to and you shouldn't reasonably expect them to prioritize their real life schedule or their Misplaced Pages time on dispute that you runs on your own schedule to your DRN you started around your own schedule on your own terms. I have initially waited to give others time to comment as their time allows. I'm also not particularly fond of your berating, incivil, bad faith assuming comments directed at myself, as well as a few other editors and it's exhausting discussing with you, so I'm not feeling particularly compelled to give your matters priority in my Misplaced Pages time. ] (]) 06:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ====A Possibly Requested Detail==== | |||
| Okay. If the question is specifically whether ] was uncooperative at ], then I can state that they were not uncooperative and did not obstruct or disrupt DRN. Graywalls took very little part in the DRN proceeding before I closed it. They were not required to take part, although they say that they would have made a statement if the case had stayed open a little longer. The antagonism that I saw was between ] and ], and I collapsed an exchange between them. I did not read what I am told were long previous discussions, because I expect the disputants at DRN to begin by telling me concisely what each of them wants to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Graywalls was not uncooperative at DRN. | |||
| ] (]) 00:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Okay. ] is making a slightly different statement, that ] did not ] at DRN. That is correct. And I noted above that their mention that I had closed the dispute depended on what was meant by the "dispute". and looked like an attempt to confuse the jury. ] (]) 03:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] Zefr did not use the word uncooperative although did say uncollaborative and I used the two interchangeably in my ping. I did participate in it ]. I haven't participated in DRN until that point, so I wasn't really sure how it worked. ] (]) 13:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===The actual content that led to this dispute=== | |||
| Two month ago, ] included this shockingly bad content: {{tpq|As of 2014, some flavors of Breyer's ice cream contains propylene glycol as an additive. Propylene glycol is a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze and it is clear fluid made by "treating propylene with chlorinated water to form the chlorohydrin, which is then converted to the glycol, an alcohol, by treating it with a sodium carbonate solution." Propylene glycol is formulated into Breyer's fat-free and Carb Smart ice cream to make it easier to scoop.}} The notion that an article about an ice cream company should include a detailed description of how a ] food additive is manufactured is bizarre enough, as is the cherrypicked and glaringly misleading assertion about "antifreeze", but the reference used to support the Breyers claim was a book called ''Eat It to Beat It!: Banish Belly Fat-and Take Back Your Health-While Eating the Brand-Name Foods You Love!'' written by a quack/crank diet profiteer named David Zinczenko. I invite any editor to take a search engine look at Zinczenko's body of work, and come away with the conclusion that his writings are anything other than fringe and unreliable. Despite the glaringly obviously non-neutral and tendentious problems with this shockingly bad content, editors including most prominently {{u|Graywalls}} and {{u|Axad12}} dug in their heels, fighting a reargard action for nearly two months, determined to make this mundane routine ice cream company look as bad as possible. Their self-justification seems to be that big bad corporations have ''no right whatsover'' to try to remove atrociously bad content about their products from Misplaced Pages, and that any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association. I am not an advocate for corporations ''per se'', but I am an advocate for corporations being treated ] like all other topics, rather with disdain and contempt, which was the case here, as I see it. I do not know what the best outcome is here, but I certainly encourage these two editors to refrain from any other unjustified and poorly referenced anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end. ] (]) 07:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :A striking and shocking aspect of this sordid situation is that two editors, {{u|Graywalls}} and {{u|Axad12}} were able to concoct a false "consensus" supporting various versions of this garbage content. And then when another editor tried to start a RFC about the appallingly bad content, {{u|Axad12}} tried over and over and over again to stop the RFC and defend the atrocious content rather than correcting it, aided and abetted by {{u|Graywalls}}. When the RFC actually went live, it soon became clear that many editors agreed that the content these two editors advocated for was utterly inappropriate. ] (]) 08:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Cullen, | |||
| :As per my comments above, my motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time. I did not {{tq|concoct}} that consensus, at least 5 users other than me were against excluding the material. | |||
| :I have never had any particularly strong opinion one way or the other on the content issue and I try as best as I can not to get involved in content disputes. I have not {{tq|dug in heels}} or attempted to promote any kind of fringe opinion and nor have I engaged in {{tq|anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end}}. | |||
| :Similarly I do not hold the view that {{tq|any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association}}, or any opinion even vaguely resembling that view. On the contrary, I have often implemented COI edit requests on behalf of corporations or have pointed out to corporate employees how such requests would need to be amended to conform with sourcing or other requirements. Repeatedly engaging in that activity would presumably make me very {{tq|evil}} indeed, in my own eyes, if I held the view that you attribute to me. | |||
| :I reverted the Breyer edits in good faith because there was no consensus in favour of them. If I was incorrect on a point of policy in that regard then fair enough, however please do not attempt to attribute to me sentiments which I do not harbour. | |||
| :Also, I did not attempt to stop the RfC {{tq|over and over and over again}}. I removed the tag twice, then requested guidance from administrators and immediately replaced the tag when requested to do so. The tag was removed, in all, for a matter of minutes and had no meaningful impact on the progress of the RfC. I have accepted elsewhere that I now appreciate that the basis on which I removed the tag was inappropriate. I have also stated that {{tq|From my standpoint wasn't a process that I was familiar with - but I can see from the many excellent contributions here that this is the best way of resolving content disputes}}. I have also stated that I welcome and support the new consensus. ] (]) 08:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , {{u|Axad12}}, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. ] (]) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I {{tq|obviously dislike}} Breyers or (their parent company) Unilever, or indeed that I consider either to be {{tq|evil}}? | |||
| :::To the best of my recollection, I've only ever made 3 mainspace edits to the Breyers article - each time on the stated basis in the edit summary that the edit I was reverting was contrary to consensus. | |||
| :::I've re-read the extensive talk page discussions in recent days and I can only see that I ever commented on the COI angle and the nature of the consensus. Those comments were based on my understanding of policy at the time. I do not see {{tq|anti-corporate diatribes}} or evidence that I {{tq|obviously dislike}} Breyers or Unilever. | |||
| :::Indeed, I do not hold any particularly strong views on Breyers, Unilever or any other corporations. ] (]) 09:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I said, {{u|Axad12}}, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to ] to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. ] (]) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My activity on that talk page has solely been in relation to pointing out what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was a valid COI concern and observing that from Aug to Dec there has never been a consensus in favour of exclusion. | |||
| :::::Anything beyond that is simply you attributing motives that do not exist. | |||
| :::::I have never stated or implied that {{tq|a corporation does not deserve neutrality}} and nor do I hold such a view. | |||
| :::::I happily admit that I'm quite animated and enthusiastic about COI issues and reverting edits which appear to be contrary to consensus. With the benefit of hindsight probably I should have let go of those issues at an earlier stage and vacated the field for those who actually had an appetite to argue on content grounds. | |||
| :::::I'd also point out that for a significant part of the last 2 months I had actually unsubscribed from the relevant talkpage threads and only ended up getting involved again due to being summoned to the Dispute Resolution thread. If I had been {{tq|determined over the last two months to maintain various versions of biased non-neutral content}} then hopefully it stands to reason that I would not have unsubscribed in that way - thus resulting in a situation where I was actually completely unaware of much of the talkpage and mainspace activity over the period that you refer to. ] (]) 10:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your {{tq|motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time}}. You are also obligated to ''actually'' look at the disputed content and the sources supporting it. Why didn't you do that? Why were you unable to see what multiple editors in the RfC are commenting about? You shouldn't just blindly revert content like that, without taking a look for yourself to see if the complaint about the disputed content has any merit, like it being reliably sourced and due for inclusion.]] 10:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That's a very fair question. | |||
| :::::::The answer is that I was inclined to believe the opinions of editors much more experienced than myself who were against exclusion, particularly the editor who turned down the original COI edit request (whose work on COI edit requests I have the greatest of respect for). | |||
| :::::::User Whatamidoing has already pointed out above that my error lay in accepting those users' opinions. I agree with Whatamidoing's observation there. | |||
| :::::::I can only say that what I did was done in good faith based on my understanding of policy at the time. I now know where I erred (in several different ways) and I am glad to have received instruction in that regard. | |||
| :::::::However, I really cannot accept the repeated suggestion that I vindictively masterminded a long anti-corporate campaign to keep bad material in an article. That suggestion is fundamentally not true. ] (]) 10:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been.]] 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Yes, I entirely accept that. | |||
| :::::::::For clarity, when I said {{tq|my understanding of policy at the time}} I meant ''my understanding of policy'' at the time - I wasn't trying to suggest that the policy has changed since I made those edits. | |||
| :::::::::What I am saying is that those edits were not made with malice, they were made because I accepted the opinions of other users more experienced than myself, opinions which I now know that I ought to have questioned. ] (]) 11:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — ] (]) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::As I said earlier in this thread, I am 100% supportive of the new consensus in favour of excluding the previously disputed material. | |||
| :::::::::::Virtually all of my time on Misplaced Pages is spent at COIN and dealing with COI edit requests. I'm not the sort of user who spends their time edit warring over POV fringe material and generally being disruptive. | |||
| :::::::::::So, the last thing I would ever do is attempt to reinstall material where a very robust consensus at RfC has indicated that it should be excluded. | |||
| :::::::::::I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that I can be trusted in that regard. ] (]) 12:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — ] (]) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::Yes, quite so. I have acknowledged my error in that regard in my first response to Isaidnoway, above, re: the very useful input I received from Whatamidoing. ] (]) 17:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Axad, if I read what you wrote correctly, and please correct me if I misunderstand: ''I will stay away from that article because I support the current consensus''. My concern is what if consensus was to shift on that article? ] ] 17:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::Apologies if my earlier response was unclear. My point was that I have absolutely no intention of edit warring over the previously disputed material (or any other material) so I don't see what purpose it would serve to ban me from the article. | |||
| :::::::::::::I have only ever made (to the best of my knowledge) 3 previous edits to the article (1 in November and 2 in December?). These were all on the basis of a misunderstanding on a point of policy which has been pointed out to me above and which I have happily acknowledged and accepted. The issue at stake was not that I harbour any partisan view in relation to the content dispute, it was that I edited to reflect the views of other editors whose opinions I respected on the matter in question. | |||
| :::::::::::::I do not see any reason for the community to anticipate that I would made a similar misunderstanding of policy going forwards. | |||
| :::::::::::::Hopefully this clarifies... ] (]) 17:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've been expecting something to happen around ], whom I ran into several months ago during a ]. What I noticed back in October was that Axad12 seemed to be ''clerking the noticeboard'', making prosecutorial noises, and sometimes unsupported accusations (ex: {{tq|...the existence of COI seems quite clear...}} , {{tq|...in relation to your undeclared conflict of interest...}} , {{tq|As I said, the fact that there was a significant undeclared conflict of interest in relation to editing on Paralympic Australia-related articles was demonstrated some years ago.}} ) towards what they thought of as COI editors (this was about whether ] had failed to adequately announce their conflict with Paralympic Australia, where they've been openly helping as a volunteer on our community's behalf for many years, and after they had just made an ]). I often find such clerking of noticeboards by relatively unseasoned users to be troublesome; Axad12 has 490 edits at COIN, about 12% of their total 3801 edits (but about a third of the roughly 1500 edits total on COIN since September). If you use a hammer all day, you might begin to think that all objects are potentially nails. ] (]) 12:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. ] (]) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think it would be a good idea for {{u|Axad12}} to take a break from ] and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. ] (]) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. ] (]) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::In fairness, the overwhelming majority of my posts at COIN over the last year or so have been simple helpful contributions. The two matters discussed above were atypical and in both cases I've taken on board the advice I was given. | |||
| :::::If (per the figures above) I've been making about a third of all the contributions at COIN over that period then my behaviour would have been reported here long ago if I was either disruptive or incompetent. | |||
| :::::That said, I won't deny that I've been seriously considering retiring from Misplaced Pages over the last two months. The only reason I've not done so is because other users have specifically encouraged me to carry on because they value my work at COIN and on COI issues generally. | |||
| :::::All I can say is that what I have done, I have done in good faith and when I have occasionally erred I have learned lessons. I have acknowledged above that I've made mistakes and I'm grateful to those who have given me advice. ] (]) 15:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard ''is not the high achievement you might think it is''. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. ] (]) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Buster, I know that we've had crossed words in the past so I'm grateful for your understanding and your measured response above. Yes, I deal with many bad faith users and yes it does wear on me sometimes. | |||
| :::::::I don't claim any great expertise in COI matters but I do have the time to dedicate to the project and I've picked up a decent awareness of the methods that can be used to detect and prevent UPE/PROMO etc activity. | |||
| :::::::I believe that in the past when I've been given advice on points of policy I've taken that advice on board and would hope to continue to do so in the future. ] (]) 17:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::This comment is not about you, but you might be interested in it: I've been thinking for years that a rotating duty system might be helpful. Of course we're all ], but we might be less stressed, and get more representative results, if we each spent a week at ANI and a month at RSN and a week at CCI each year than if one editor spends all year at ANI and another spends all year at RSN (and nobody is at CCI – anyone who is looking for an opportunity to deal with really serious problems should please consider spending some time at ]. The few regulars there will be so grateful, and who knows? You might find that you like it). ] (]) 18:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::]? ] (]) 20:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I do think that it's worth zooming out and looking at the article as a whole. Comparing the version from to the makes it obvious that the tone of the article has become vastly more promotional, with much more focus on glowy feel-good aspects that are only mentioned in lower-quality sources (the story about the original creator hand-churning it?) And the ''context'' of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) to the weird {{tq|In 2013, Breyers introduced frozen desserts made with food additives (section above) that were intended to create smooth, low-calorie products. However, the new desserts evoked complaints by some consumers who were accustomed to the traditional "all-natural" Breyers ice cream.}}, which 100% reads like marketing-speak (downplaying the reaction by making it sound like it's just that people loved the old version ''so much''. In fact, the current version doesn't mention Breyer's cost-cutting measures at all, even though it's a massive aspect of coverage.) That doesn't necessarily justify the version above, but it's important to remember that this was originally a one-word mention in a larger list - {{tq|Following similar practices by several of their competitors, Breyers' list of ingredients has expanded to include thickeners, low-cost sweeteners, food coloring and low-cost additives — including natural additives such as tara gum and carob bean gum; artificial additives such as maltodextrin and propylene glycol; and common artificially separated and extracted ingredients such as corn syrup, whey, and others}}, the longstanding wording, is not unreasonable and doesn't really imply that there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol, just that it's an additive. I think the context of that larger shift to a much more promotional tone to the article is significant (and looking over talk, most of the actual dispute has focused on that.) --] (]) 17:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article.]] 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::@], about this {{xt|And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources)}} – I don't know what other sources say, but the ''cited'' sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually ] a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. ] (]) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::(As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at ] instead of here.) ] (]) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::{{re|Aquillion|WhatamIdoing|Isaidnoway}} would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? ] (]) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I don't mind, but my contribution to this thread is relatively minor. ] (]) 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ====Thanks, and a Diddly Question==== | |||
| I would like to thank ] for providing the background and content information. I also have a possibly minor question for ]. They edit-warred to try to stop the RFC on the content, and said that there was an {{tq|exceptionally serious abuse}} of the ] process. I may not have done enough background research, but I don't see where they have identified who has been the paid editor or undisclosed paid editor, or what the ] content is. If there has been paid editing, who has done it, and have they been dealt with? ] (]) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Robert, probably the best single overview of the COI issue is given in this post . | |||
| retrieved from Sarastro's page Troll banned Hi, Sarastro. I think you'll be pleased to know that the FirstComrade/BrownEdge/ASMF troll has been banned via WP:ANI. Your replies to him were instrumental as you clearly identified him as HughGal. My interest in him was his Fieldgoalunit alias last year, under which he caused considerable disruption and annoyance. Hopefully he will finally get the message that nobody wants him here. We don't want him in the ACS either, despite his blatherings about it (he was sacked as journal editor and chucked his Wisdens out of his pram: yes, he really did). JJJ (not at home so not logged in). --86.160.125.25 (talk) 17:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :My impression at the time of the events, and subsequently, was that the activity was designed to distort the COI edit request process. I still feel that what happened re: the COI edit requests was irregular but I note that no other user seems to have supported me in that regard so I've not taken the matter any further. Similarly, while I felt that those events had a bearing on the RfC I now accept that the RfC relates solely to the content matter specifically under discussion. ] (]) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I find your characterization of events inaccurate. "we have the resubmission of the request to remove the disputed material in a COI edit request thread here " | |||
| ::But this was not a resubmission. was to remove a list of ingredients (including propylene glycol) which was sourced to a blog and which the COI editor says is outdated and doesn't reflect current ingredients. Meanwhile, the link you give as an example of "resubmission" was the COI editor requesting the removal of . Both requests involve propylene glycol, but they are clearly separate requests concerning separate content. | |||
| ::We want COI editors to propose changes to talk pages. The fact that this COI editor, apparently frustrated by a lack of responses to their requests went to the to request someone look at their edits, and then went to an active participant of said Wikiproject and requested they look at their requests, is not suspicious or abnormal. And I think it's highly inappropriate how Axad12 argued at length on the talk page that User:Zefr was "cultivated" by the COI editor "to do their bidding". I support other editors in recommending Axad12 take a break from COI issues. ] (]) 00:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'd just like to stress here that I only linked to my post above because Robert McClenon asked for the background to the COI element. I was not trying to re-open that issue or to request that any action be taken on that issue. I have already accepted that there is absolutely no support for the position I adopted there. ] (]) 04:00, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::This doesn't answer my question. The link is to a conversation between ], ], and administrator ]. The links from that conversation show that there is antagonism between Axad12 and Graywalls on the one hand and ] on the other hand. They show that there is discussion of ], but they show no direct evidence of ] editing by any editor. They don't answer who is said to be a paid editor making edit requests, aside from the fact that paid editors are supposed to make edit requests rather than editing directly, so I am still not sure what the issue is. I haven't seen any evidence of abuse, let alone of {{tq|exceptionally serious abuse}} that warranted edit-warring to prevent an RFC. ] (]) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The paid editor is ] who is open and transparent about their COI. The edit request which began this episode was when Inkian Jason ] where they pinged ] about having uploaded a photo of the company's logo and asking if they would be willing to add it to the article. Secondary to that they also asked about the appropriateness of the recently added propylene glycol content. The COI issues centered around whether Inkian Jason "cultivated" Zefr by pinging him to remove the added propylene glycol text after they had ] about the various ingredients used in the ice cream (which included propylene glycol). ] (]) 05:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposal 2: Article Ban of Axad12 from Breyers=== | |||
| Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Sarastro1" | |||
| (Proposal 1 has been lost up in the early postings.) I propose that ] be ] from ] and ] for six months. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as proposer. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. ] (]) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite ], an ] with Zefr, and a ] on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? ] (]) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::The purpose of the counter proposal was simply to indicate that I have only good intentions going forwards and I am happy to demonstrate those intentions upon pain of the strongest possible sanction. Evidently I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking, as I'm aware that eyes will understandably be upon me going forwards. | |||
| *:::As I've said before, I'm a good faith user and I'm amenable to taking instruction when I have erred. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that without being subject to a formal ban. ] (]) 05:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on {{tq|q=y|pain of an indefinite site ban}}. "A rose by any other name" comes to mind here. Your voluntary adherence to the terms of the proposal would be indistinguishable from being compelled into adherence by threat of an indef. If you still want this course of action, fair enough, I just don't think it'll do what you're envisioning. ] (]) 05:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I really don't recommend that, Axad. Sure, take a break from that article if you want to. But it's really easy to forget about a dispute years later, or even for a company to change names and suddenly you're on that article without knowing it. ] (]) 04:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::For clarification, I would be happy to undertake voluntarily any measures that the community may suggest and upon pain of any sanction that the community may suggest. I believe that there is value to undertaking such measures voluntarily because it allows one to demonstrate that one can be trusted. | |||
| *:::Also just a brief note to say that in about an hour and a quarter's time I will have no internet access for the next 12-14 hours. Any lack of response during that period will simply be for that reason and not due to a wilful refusal to communicate. Hopefully I have indicated above that I have been happy to respond to all questions. | |||
| *:::No doubt matters will progress in my absence and I will find out my fate upon my return. ] (]) 05:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' as less stringent than what Axad has proposed above within this section, but still prevents further disruption. ] (]) 06:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Clearly JameszJJames is a blackjack sockpuppetMariaSpawasser (talk) 11:46, 13 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' because {{u|Axad12}} seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. ] (]) 08:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. I also oppose Axad12's counter proposal. --] (]) 10:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given Cullen328's comment. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per above. I just don't see a need for such strict measures. ] (]) 16:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposal 3: Article Ban of Axad12 from COIN=== | |||
| Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Burpelson_AFB" | |||
| Clerking at COIN seems to have given ] the idea that everyone whom they don't know is probably a paid editor, and something has given them the idea that they can identify "exceptionally serious abuse" without providing direct evidence. I propose that ] be ] from ] for two months. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| see also JamesJJames for more personal attacks. Check that JamesJJames returns to editing when Blackjack was banned] (]) 09:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as proposer. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that {{tq|everyone whom don't know is probably a paid editor}}. The overwhelming majority of my contributions at COIN are simple constructive contributions and the matter described above is highly atypical. ] (]) 04:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' because {{u|Axad12}} seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. ] (]) 08:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. --] (]) 10:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given Cullen328's comment. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I would prefer it if Axad12's voluntary commitment was to stay away from ] rather than the company article in particular. It is very unhealthy, both for Misplaced Pages and for the particular user, for anything like a third of the edits on any noticeboard to be from any one user. ] (]) 15:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' this is a good idea, and not vindictive. It will do Axad12 some good to get away from the COIN for awhile, and get out there and roam around Misplaced Pages and see where else they can contribute constructively.]] 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I think a formal ban is unnecessary. Axad has done a remarkably good job of articulating a positive response to this incident, and it's to his credit that he has reacted so constructively under such pressure. | |||
| *:I also think it's good for everyone to try something different on occasion. I think it's easier to walk away for a bit if you're sure that others will step up to fill your place. So with such proposals (not just this one), I'd love to see people saying not only that they support giving someone a break, but also that they'll try to step up to help out in that page/process/noticeboard for the length of a ban. It could be as little as checking in once a week or answering the easy questions. Who is willing to actually be supportive in practice? ] (]) 20:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::People will fill the space. WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensible. ] (]) 20:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::It's only for two months, it's a good thing to get away and get a breath of fresh air, and yes, his response has been positive, but even he admits in the Breyer debacle, he was relying on other editor's opinions in evaluating the disputed content, so getting away from the COIN desk for a couple of months, and getting some experience in other areas of the encyclopedia will be beneficial, if and when, he returns to COIN.]] 22:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I don’t want to derail the voting process here, but a couple of points in relation to COIN… | |||
| *:::(Apologies for the length of this post but I feel the contents are relevant.) | |||
| *:::1) It has been observed elsewhere that “COIN has no teeth” (forgive me for the absence of a diff but I think it's a commonly acknowledged idea). I've discussed that issue at some length with ] and they've acknowledged that there is (in their opinion) insufficient admin oversight at COIN and that too many threads have historically gone unresolved without action being taken against promo-only accounts (etc). | |||
| *:::Star Mississippi has encouraged me to refer such cases to admins directly to ask them to intervene. I’ve been doing so over recent months and this has significantly improved positive resolutions on COIN threads. | |||
| *:::If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there. Thus, while I acknowledge Whatamidoing’s earlier point about cross-training etc, and the points made by other users, there is an underlying unresolved issue re: admin oversight at COIN, which might also be resolved via some kind of rota or by a greater number of admins looking in from time to time. | |||
| *:::I’ve not consciously been clerking, and I certainly don’t aspire to be “the co-ordinator of COIN”, but there is something of a vacuum there. Consequently I’ve often posted along the lines of “Maybe refer this to RPPI?”, “Is there a notability issue here?”, etc. etc. in response to threads that have been opened. | |||
| *:::I absolutely accept 100% that, in terms of experience, I’m probably not the best person to be doing that – but I have the time to do it and I have the inclination, and in the absence of anybody else serving that role I’ve been happy to do it. But, as I say, really this is an underlying unresolved issue of others ''not'' having the time or inclination rather than an issue of me going out of my way to dominate. What I'd really like is if there were others sharing that task. | |||
| *:::2) Also I'm not really sure that the extent to which I perform that sort of role has any real link to me making assumptions about whether COI users have good or bad faith motivations. On the latter distinction I think it's fair to say that I'm usually (but admittedly not always) correct. There have also been occasions when others have been asking for action to be taken and I've been the voice who said "no, I think this is a good faith user who just needs some guidance on policy". I hope that I'm normally speaking fair in that regard. | |||
| *:::Most of the accounts who are taken to COIN are recent accounts who wrongly believe that Misplaced Pages is an extension of their social media. Most accounts who fall into that category are advised along those lines and they comply with policy or, sometimes, they just go away. Then there are the repeat customers who are often clearly operating in bad faith and where firmer action needs to be taken. I'm conscious of that distinction, which seems to me to be the single most important point when dealing with COIN cases. I've not been adopting some kind of hardline one-size-fits-all approach or characterising all COI activity as bad per se. However, more admin oversight at COIN would certainly be appreciated, if only so that there were a wider range of voices. | |||
| *:::Thus, in an ideal world I think I would continue to be allowed to operate at COIN, but as one of several regular contributors. | |||
| *:::Apologies for the length of this post but hopefully this is a useful and relevant contribution. Please feel free to hat this post if it is considered wildly off-topic. ] (]) 03:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::This comment just reinforces my support position that a two-month break is a good idea.]] 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::], all I can say is that if Misplaced Pages is looking for people with the time and motivation to dedicate to the project, and who are amenable to taking instruction, then here I am. | |||
| *:::::If I’ve been felt to be overly keen to contribute in a particular area then fair enough. I’m just not sure that a formal ban is the way to go about resolving that. ] (]) 05:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Good grief, it's only two months, not a lifetime, I've taken breaks form the project longer than that, and guess what, the place didn't fall apart, and neither will COIN if you take a small break, formally or voluntarily. You claim - {{tq|If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there.}} I just don't believe that to be true, because as Phil Bridger points out - ''WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensable''.]] 06:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::I really don't wish to argue, you've expressed your view and that's fine. However, the point of my long post above wasn't that "I am critical to COIN". The post was simply intended to highlight the fact that there are very few regular contributors at COIN and to express a hope that a wider range of contributors might get involved (following on from earlier related comments by Whatamidoing). That would be healthy all round, regardless of my situation. | |||
| *:::::::Also, when I've seen similar situations arise in the past, good faith (but over-active) users seem to usually be given the opportunity to voluntarily take steps to allay any community concerns, rather than being handed a formal ban. I'd just be grateful for a similar opportunity. ] (]) 06:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Apologies for the delay. I cannot provide a diff either as I can't recall where we had the conversation but acknowledging that what @] attributed to me is correct. There are simple blocks that are sometimes needed, but there aren't as many eyes on COIN to action them. I believe I've found merit to any Axad reported directly to me and if there were any I didn't take action, it was due to bandwidth as my on wiki time has been somewhat limited over the last six months. As for the merit of this report, I am not able to read through it to assess the issue so it would not be fair of me to weigh in on any element thereof. ] ] 14:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I have read through this long, entire discussion. I'd just like to point out to Axad12 that, to me, it's kind of like you are saying what you think we want to hear so it's hard to know how reflective this incident has caused you to be. I think it would be a mistake for you to think you only made mistakes regarding this one article and instead reconsider your approach to the entire COI area. Sometimes "the consensus" is not correct and can violate higher principles like NPOV and V. | |||
| :I'll just mention that the COI area has caused us to lose some invaluable editors, just superb and masterful editors who were on their way to becoming administrators. They devoted incredible amounts of time to this project. But their interest in rooting out COI and pursuing UPE caused them to completely lose perspective and think that they were a one-man/woman army and they took irresponsible shortcuts that led them to either leave the project voluntarily or be indefinitely blocked. It's like they fell down a rabbit hole where they began to think that the rules didn't apply to them because they had a "higher calling" of getting rid of COI. This lack of perspective caused us to lose some amazing editors, unfortunately, but ultimately they were damaging the project. | |||
| :You seem like an enthusiastic editor and I'd rather not see the same thing happen to you so I recommend you cut back on your time "clerking" COIN and just make this task one of a variety of areas you edit in instead of your primary activity. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Liz, thank you for your comments. I welcome your perspective and I'm not unaware of the dangers that you highlight. | |||
| ::I think this is now day 5 of what has been a rather gruelling examination where I’ve co-operated to the very best of my ability. Most of the material under discussion has related to a series of regrettable misunderstandings where I’ve openly acknowledged my errors and would now like to move on. | |||
| ::Therefore I’d be grateful if, following a period of reflection, I be given the latitude to continue my activities as I think best, taking on board ''all'' the very helpful advice that I’ve received from multiple users. At this moment in time I'm not sure exactly what that will look like going forwards, but it will involve a very significant (perhaps complete) reduction in my concentration on COI issues and much more time spent on improving articles in non-COI areas where I've previously contributed productively (e.g. detailed articles on specific chess openings). | |||
| ::If I subsequently fall short of community expectations then by all means bring me back here with a view to imposing extreme sanctions. I do not think that that will end up being necessary. | |||
| ::I have only the best of intentions but I must admit that I'm finding this prolonged process psychologically wearing. I therefore wondered if we might bring matters to a swift conclusion. | |||
| ::I am genuinely very grateful for the thoughts of all who have contributed above. | |||
| ::Kind regards, ] (]) 08:27, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hey, all: This thread's over 100 comments now. Can we please stop now? ] (]) 08:59, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose'''. Sanctions are intended to be preventive, not punitive. At times Axad12 can get too aggressive, and removing the RfC template was one of that. Other issues were also raised but unless these issues continues, formal sanctions are unlikely necessary. ] (]) 17:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==Complaint against ]== | |||
| :Just a note, the above account posting has only 3 edits: 2 to Burpelson AFB's talk page and the edit above. I would treat the above account as a sockpuppet itself. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 09:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | result = There is no merit to the report against GiantSnowman. There is a rough consensus against, or at the very least no consensus for action toward Footballnerd2007 based on the mentorship proposal put forth and accepted and no further action is needed here. ] ] 02:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Even if that were so, which it isn't, it does not condone a)The personal abuse at JamesJJames and b)The fact thaT JamesJJames is a likely sockpuppet of blackjack] (]) 12:17, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| :Make that 4 edits total. Checkuser, please? - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 13:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| {{Notice|1=See ] below. |heading=This complaint has been withdrawn.}} | |||
| You seem to be ignoring the abusive posting by a sockpuppet. Why?] (]) 14:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| <s> Good Morning, | |||
| :5 edits total. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 00:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| 7 in total] (]) 09:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| 8 In Total] (]) 09:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| The point is the JamesJJames is a sockpuppet of blackjack - 8 In total] (]) 09:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Actually only 6. If any admin was concerned in the slightest by this, they would have commented. So, unless you can come up with some diffs on why we should take this seriously and also establish you aren't a sock, I see no reason to keep this open. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 09:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::: FYI, I have no idea why this account copied this to my talk page. It's pretty weird. ] (]) 01:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| In reference to the actual complaint, which is an accusation that ] is a sockpuppet of ]. It's possible, the very first edits that the account (JJJ) made were to create their user page citing "useful links" pointing to various policies and then to make informed comments in a number of AfDs that are unusual for a new editor. It's also possible that JJJ was simply a very informed editor, or had edited extensively as an IP before creating an account. I do enough to warrant an SPI in this case, however. JJJ and BlackJack have similiar interests. They both comment to similar user talk pages, and JJJ was inactive for almost 2 years until shortly after BlackJack was blocked for being a sockmaster. I'll open an SPI. | |||
| At the same time, I believe that the reporting editor is a sockpuppet of ], seeing that JJJ's only contributions after becoming active again were to get Richard Daft's sockpuppets blocked, and this ANI report is probably retaliation for that. | |||
| So what I see is friction between socks (and anyone who has done laundry knows that can be a ]. I'm filing two SPI reports, because there's not quite enough ] for me to block either of these editors immediately. -- ''']'''] 21:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Someone beat me to the JJJ sockpuppet investigation, a CU already confirmed it as likely so I've blocked. Looking through the two editor's contribution lists, it's clear that they are the same person. I'm filing a report now for Richard Daft/MariaSpawasser. -- ''']'''] 21:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :The SPI report for MariaSpawasser is ]. -- ''']'''] 22:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Propose community ban of ] == | |||
| {{discussion top|1=Moved to ] by submitter on my advice. There, editors should limit themselves to a single brief comment direcly concerning the merits of the request for enforcement. Please do not discuss about the merits of the content at issue, or about the conduct of users other than Monshuai. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 23:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{userlinks|Monshuai}} is an extremely aggressive Bulgarian ultra-nationalist with a severe case of WP:BATTLE mentality. Virtually all his articlespace edits are tendentious, usually consisting of Bulgaria-related antiquity frenzy or aggrandization of Bulgarian scientific achievements, with a particular obsession with ]. Examples below: | |||
| *] antiquity frenzy: | |||
| Some more recent examples in the same spirit: | |||
| *"Aryan" origin of the ]: | |||
| *]: | |||
| *Bulgaria Science & Technology: | |||
| *]: | |||
| *Various other articles: | |||
| *]: | |||
| The last two in particular, are extremely disruptive, as the article was put under page protection. The minute it expired, Monshuai rams these edits against all consensus in a deliberate attempt to inflame the atmosphere, and to drive home a point ("This is ''my'' house!"). | |||
| He frequently uses extreme hostility in edit summaries, routinely threatening users so as to intimidate them and have his way: | |||
| A particular favorite tactic of his consists of threatening an article that he thinks his opponents hold dear ("If you mess up ''my'' article, I will mess up ''yours''"), again as a way of intimidating others. For example here he is mad about the use of the word "disintegrate" with respect to the First Bulgarian Empire, so he goes and makes a POINTy edit to ] , while at the same time lying that he has the consent of myself and ] to make this edit . Here he threatens similar retaliation about the articles on ancient Greek city-states, hoping to intimidate me . Here he does the same with ] . | |||
| When there is a clear consensus against him, he engages in interminable rants and filibusters on article talkpages, waging a psychological war of attrition with maniacal tenacity in the hopes of wearing down his opponents. Virtually the entire archive of ] is a monument to Monshuai's maniacal tenacity. Other good examples include ], ], | |||
| ], | |||
| ], | |||
| ]. | |||
| Examples with diffs: | |||
| (gloats after Martijn Faassen gives up in disgust), | |||
| (attacks Martijn Faassen for returning), | |||
| *] | |||
| *] lede - Recently, he has gone on an unstoppable ranting spree to have his antiquity-frenzied way here | |||
| . Following this innocuous comment by ], note how he deliberatley and utterly contorts his opponent's words, screaming "racism!" (a favorite tactic of his) and playing the victim. Again, an attempt to intimidate. Continued trolling: | |||
| . He even fights with reasonable Bulgarian editors, as here with ]: | |||
| . Nothing registers with this guy, it's all hostility, all the time, against everyone, always. | |||
| Recently, he has embarked on a campaign to sabotage a discussion on ] by filibustering the page with interminable rants about sources, threatening users, off-topic rants, and threats to other articles: | |||
| . To a large extent, he has succeeded: After a promising start, the discussion has gotten side-tracked and bogged down in the mud. I am convinced that as long as he is allowed to participate, this discussion will get nowhere. | |||
| Most disturbingly, his psychological attrition warfare against his opponents WORKS: | |||
| Trolling other users' pages is another favorite tactic of his: (tit for tat mr hellas), | |||
| ("this discussion will go on foerever if it must"), | |||
| , | |||
| (kookery on Alison's page), | |||
| (I will not quit playing the race card), | |||
| (I will assemble multinational team of admins), | |||
| . | |||
| Here, he wants an apology from ] over an honest mistake, and ''won't let go'': | |||
| . | |||
| Administrators are not immune to his loony threats either: | |||
| A particularly illuminating example is this discussion with Cplakidas, where he tells him he has 23 sources . When Cplakidas asks to see them , he tells him to find them himself . When Cplakidas asks again , he tells him "no free lunch" . When Cplakidas justifiably feels insulted , what does Monshuai do? Plays the victim and feign offense . This, against one of the most patient, civil, AGF users out there. I have ''never'' seen anyone get in a discussion with Monshuai and ever get anything out of it or not end up regretting it. It is ''impossible'' to reason with this guy. | |||
| He has been the subject of a community ban proposal before , but incredibly got away unscathed even though he had even created a CU-confirmed sock {{userlinks|Janelle4elle}} dedicated to sabotaging the discussion at John Vincent Atanasoff. There is virtually no rule that this guy hasn't broken. There are two reasons why I am pushing for a full, indef community ban. One, he has shown zero sign of improvement over the years. Consider his very first edits to ] and ] , with his most recent . At John Vincent Atanasoff, he's been at it for ''years'' (Dec. 2007) (Oct 2009). Similarly, an indef-topic ban is a non-starter: As the above examples illustrate, no articles are immune, even those that are way beyond the scope of WP:ARBMAC. Any attempt at discussion is completely futile and will only end in grief for the other party. No, only a full, indef community ban will work against this guy. He has been disrupting wikipedia long enough, time for it to end. ] (]) 22:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I have notified the user that they are being discussed. However I believe this ban discussion is more suited for ]. <font face="Segoe Print">] <small>//</small> ] <small>//</small> ]</span> 22:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Or ] per ], if the requisite warning has already been issued. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 22:19, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * I support this request, whether as a full community sanction or (simpler) as an Arbmac matter. This user has been an utter waste of time for much too long. To Sandstein: yes, he's been previously both warned and blocked under Arbmac, and he's been perfectly aware his recent behaviour has been highly contentious, so that should be no problem. ] ] 22:25, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :*You're right, it appears that Bulgaria is in the ] and therefore within the scope of ], and he has been warned, so conceivably a full Bulgaria topic ban could cover it. Judging by the request above, this appears to be the sort of situation that case was intended for, though of course we haven't heard from Monshuai yet. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 22:32, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I would agree with Athenean here, good job getting all those diffs. This guy doesn't seem like he's worth the effort. ] (]) 23:12, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * I'm not reviewing that many diffs for free, but was over top. Screaming racism for saying that Bulgarian ancient history isn't as notable as Greek ancient history? C'mon, 18,000 gbooks hits; 600 hits. And speaking of "Thracology", editors are invited to read the article on ]; there's something about Bulgaria and "Thracology" towards the end. ] ] 00:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::In this post I will present evidence that double standards unbecoming of Wikipedians are utilized in article editing. My goal from the get-go has been to identify inconsistencies and report them in discussion pages. I use sources to back my statements in an attempt to present the full story, and not just one facet of it. I have maintained that as human beings we share in each other's history, and the achievements of one group is not mutually exclusive with the achievements of another. All people share the historical wealth of one another's aggragate contributions (through the positive effects of cosmopolitanism and globalization) to the formation of a global civilization. This also means that the history of anyone modern nation (a product of the post "Treaty of Westphalia" period) or historical state/culture (of the past) should not be suppressed nor presented using different standards from one article to another because that is disingenuous, partial and unethical. There must be equality, and there must be singular objective standards for everyone. No nation, no person, no editors should have more or less rights. Not here, not anywhere. | |||
| ::In my humble opinion the goal of this organization is to maintain objectivity and fairness. One example of the opposite for this ideal is the double standards that have been applied to the ] and ] ledes. It is imperative that this informational gradient be neutralized. On one hand I was told by Future Perfect at Sunrise that it is peacocky to mention the Bulgarian territory's Thracian heritage, but somehow it is not peacocky to have the following sentence in the Greece lede: | |||
| ::"Modern Greece traces its roots to the civilization of ancient Greece, generally considered to be the cradle of Western civilization. As such, it is the birthplace of democracy, Western philosophy, the Olympic Games, Western literature and historiography, political science, major scientific and mathematical principles, and Western drama, including both tragedy and comedy." | |||
| ::As of a week ago, Future Perfect at Sunrise had edited the Greece article 22 times since March 2/2009 and never once stated that its lede is peacocky. Please compare this to the lede element that I proposed as part of Bulgaria's general lede: | |||
| ::"The territory of Bulgaria was once home to prehistoric and ancient civilizations. The country is composed of three regions called ], ] and ]. During the period of classical antiquity the ], ] and ] each contributed unique cultural elements that sculpted its heritage." | |||
| ::Please also compare this to portions of the ledes in the following articles: ], ], ], ], ], ], ], etc... | |||
| ::Upon showing this, Man with one red shoe stated the following: | |||
| ::"Also, it's a matter of notability, I'm afraid to say this, but "Ancient Greece" is a bit more notable than "Ancient lands that now are occupied by Bulgarians". | |||
| ::I noted that it is indeed racist to state that the country's territory is OCCUPIED by Bulgarians. First, Bulgarians are not on someone else's land. Second, Bulgarians like all modern nations are composites of multiple ancestral groups regardless of their modern national name. As an example, the fact that modern Jordanians, Lebanese, Iraqis, Egyptians etc are officially Arab does not mean that their links to their to pre-Arab heritage is severed. It also does not mean that they are occupying someone else's territory. | |||
| ::Man with one red shoe then stated that Bulgaria's ancient heritage is not notable because people around the world would not have heard of it. He used Japan as a specific example. I countered by providing the following sources: | |||
| ::-http://sofiaecho.com/2009/07/16/756602_golden-thracian-treasure-returns-to-bulgaria-from-japan | |||
| ::-http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=100803 | |||
| ::In fact the latest exhibition of Bulgaria's ancient heritage in Japan averaged over 20,000 visitors per day, and a record performance of 45,000 visitors in the peak day. The Japanese are also quite familiar with the Varna culture of Bulgaria, as the Varna Necropolis treasures were on exhibition for 7 months in Japan in 1982. That Bulgarian exhibit in Japan was called, "'The Oldest Gold in the World - The First European Civilization' with massive publicity, including two full length TV documentaries. In the 1980s and 1990s it was also shown in Canada, Germany, France, Italy, and Israel, among others, and featured in a cover story by the National Geographic Magazine. Varna necropolis artefacts were shown for the first time in the United States in 1998 and 1999 as part of a major Bulgarian archaeological exhibition, Thracians' Riches: Treasures from Bulgaria." | |||
| ::I also provided the following text published by the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences: http://members.multimania.co.uk/rre/History-Seven.html | |||
| ::Finally, I discussed the National Museum of Bulgarian History, of which 1/3 of the exhibits are of the country's ancient heritage: http://www.historymuseum.org/collection.php | |||
| ::Man with one red shoe then went on to write on my talk page whilst telling me not to write on his. I noted this was hypocritical. He also swore on my talk page using the word "shat". Some people may find this funny, and to be honest I am not disgusted by it either, but I don't think using any language that refers to human excrement is appropriate on a person's talk page. I stated this and his response posted in ] was, "I wanted to say "shit", but then I remembered that some Misplaced Pages admins are morons, I don't know why I censured myself, is not in my habit, in any case I remove myself from this discussion I don't want ever to discuss with this guy." Since he said this I have no longer been conversing with him. | |||
| ::I will present more on this topic as this discussion evolves. However I will now move on to the discussion regarding the ] and ]. | |||
| ::Please note that Athenean has edited both of these articles. His premise seems to be that it is peacocky to say that the First Bulgarian Empire was one of the most powerful of its time and for a time the cultural centre of Slavic Europe, even whilst sources have been provided to back this up. At the same time, he believes that is quite alright to include the following line in the Byzantine Empire lede: | |||
| ::"The Empire remained one of the most powerful economic, cultural, and military forces in Europe..." | |||
| ::He has also maintained that within the First Bulgarian Empire lede, the Bulgars must not only be mentioned but in fact defined as Turkic. Some of the other editors found this to be very strange, as it is not customary to include such detailed ethnic information in the lede while excluding mention of other ethnic groups also involved in the social dynamics of the time. Thus I stated that if it is acceptable for one ethnicity to be mentioned, then all other ethnicities involved must be included as the state in question was multi-ethnic. The Turkic Bulgars conquered the territory from the Byzantine Empire, established themselves as a ruling elite and were gradually over a period of three centuries assimilated by formerly Byzantine populations (primarily Slavs). In other words, it would be unreasonable to include one detailed element of history to the exclusion of other components that complete the picture. Furthermore, I asked them if they believe the same standards should be applied to the Byzantine Empire article. After all, its roots are Latin, and further enriched by Vlachs, Greeks, Coptics, Georgians, Armenians, Arabs, Persians, etc... Unfortunately they neglected to answer this even whilst they continued to insist that only a partial informational element be applied to the Bulgarian article in question. | |||
| ::Let me also mention that I have supported my statements with academic sources. Here are just a few of the sources I have used during said discussions: | |||
| ::1)- (Hammond, 1976) Migrations and invasions in Greece and adjacent areas - Page 67 | |||
| ::2)- (Ference, 1994) Chronology of 20th-century eastern European history - Page 61 | |||
| ::3)- (Cramton, 1987) A short history of modern Bulgaria - Page 2 | |||
| ::4)- (multiple authors, 1980) Academic American encyclopedia, Volume 10 - Page 556 | |||
| ::5)- (multiple authors, 1993) Encyclopedia Americana, Volume 1 - Page 750 | |||
| ::6)- (Medieval Academy of America, 1950) Speculum, Volume 25 - Page 529 | |||
| ::7)- (Setton, 1974) Europe and the Levant in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance - Page 617 | |||
| ::8)- (Dobson et al, 2000) Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages, Volume 1 - Page 1581 | |||
| ::9)- (Shashi, 1992) Encyclopaedia of humanities and social sciences - Page 1207 | |||
| ::10)- (Obolensky, 1994) Byzantium and the Slavs - Page 9 | |||
| ::11)- (Stoyanov, 1994) The hidden tradition in Europe - Page 109 | |||
| ::12)- (multiple authors, 1989) Library of Congress Classification Schedules D History General and Old World - Page 181 | |||
| ::13)- (McCarty et al, 1999) Masks: Faces of Culture - Page 133 | |||
| ::As for the power of the First Bulgarian Empire here is what the "Encyclopaedia Britannica, A New Survey of Universal Knowledge, Volume 4 - page 37" has to say: | |||
| ::"The national power (of the First Bulgarian Empire) reached its zenith under Simeon (893-927), a monarch distinguished in the arts of war and peace. In his reign, 'Bulgaria assumed rank among the civilized powers of earth.' His dominions extended from the Black Sea to the Adriatic, and from the borders of Thessaly to the Save and the Carpathians. Having become the most powerful monarch in Eastern Europe, Simeon assumed the style of 'Emperor and Autocrat of all the Bulgars and Greeks' (tsar i samodrzhetz usem Blgarom i Grkom), a title which was recognized by Pope Formosus." | |||
| ::I have added a number of other sources regarding other points of dispute. | |||
| ::With regard to the Bulgar conquerers being assimilated (therefore a portion of a complex ethnic amalgamation): | |||
| ::14)- Graboïs, A. (1980). The illustrated encyclopaedia of medieval civilization. New York: Mayflower Books., p. 148 | |||
| ::15)- The South Slav journal: 43-44 vol.12 no.1-2 Spring-Summer 1989. (1989). The South Slav journal, 43-44 vol.12 no.1-2 Spring-Summer 1989. London: the journal., p. 4 | |||
| ::16)- Ference, G. C. (1994). Chronology of 20th-century eastern European history. Detroit, MI: Gale Research., p. 61 | |||
| ::With regard to Tervel being the first foreigner to receive the title Caeser: | |||
| ::17)- Ostrogorski, G. (1969). History of the Byzantine state. New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press., p. 143 | |||
| ::Regarding the First Bulgarian Empire being a cultural centre of Slavic Europe:''' | |||
| ::18)- Sedlar, J. W. (1994). East Central Europe in the Middle Ages, 1000-1500. A History of East Central Europe, v. 3. Seattle: University of Washington Press., p. 426 | |||
| ::19)- Hussey, J. M. (1990). The Orthodox Church in the Byzantine Empire. Oxford history of the Christian Church. Oxford: Clarendon Press., p. 100 | |||
| ::20)- Encyclopaedia britannica: A new survey of universal knowledge., Volume 4, Part 4A. (2009). Chicago: Encyclopaedia britannica., p. 37 | |||
| ::Athenean responded to this by telling me that I did not include page numbers and therefore the sources I provided were not valid. The reality however is that I provided page numbers for each of the 20 sources from the very start and anyone who looked carefully at what I had written would have been able to take note of this. Thus Athenean's attempt to disregard the sources provided in my post was neither objective nor ethical. Soon after, Alexikoua stated that the Encyclopaedia Britannica source is unacceptable, as he claimed that tertiary sources are not allowed in Misplaced Pages. However this is strange when he had previously said nothing of the Britannica source used to reference the Turkic ancestry of the Bulgars. He also accused me of creating source chaos because I was apparently using too many sources to prove a point, even though again he said nothing of the nine sources used to reference the Turkic roots of the Bulgars. | |||
| ::] and ] defended what I posted and said the following: | |||
| ::"So, it is a chaos of sources when he proves something that you don't like but it is ''not'' chaos of sources to put ''nine'' references that the Bulgars were Turkic people. If Britannica is not valid, remove only that reference and do not use it as an excuse to remove all. That is not constructive at all. -- ] (]) 14:29, 13 February 2010 (UTC)" | |||
| ::Kostja added to this by saying, "I should add that tertiary sources are permitted, especially high quality ones like Brittanica: | |||
| ::. | |||
| ::] (]) 15:19, 13 February 2010 (UTC)" | |||
| ::'''Now before this discussion moves on I must ask that only neutral administrators who are not involved nor ever have been involved with Balkan related articles analyze this predicament.''' I believe that all people (myself included) are liable to subjectivity and therefore an external and maximally neutral perspective is warranted. In this case it seems that editors and an administrator who stem from this region, in particular a country of this region, are attempting to cast me in negative light. What I think is strange is that every time I proposed to take this issue to WP:ANI they disagreed. However once I presented 20 reliable sources (shown above), they rushed here. Ironic, especially when I'm the person who has backed statements with reliable academic sources! | |||
| ::I believe that it is fair that I be scrutinized as you deem necessary. After all, I do not hide the fact that I am fallible and thereby I adhere to the philosophy that my personal defects be discussed openly. Though I strive to learn as much as I can about the world, I, like everyone else, have limitations. Said another way, this is certainly a valuable convention whereby individual and collective fallacies that are embedded in the virtual fabric of this encyclopaedia can be exposed, interpreted, categorized and improved. That applies to everyone who is a part of this community including those that use double standards. Therefore I will answer your questions and continue to provide sources to back my statements whilst utilizing (as I have recently done) deductive, abductive and inductive reasoning to elucidate my premises, rather than just give my opinions. From the onset this is what I have done in talk pages whilst facing countering statements that are not backed by such references. I also think that the other involved parties be scrutinized under the same lenses of maximal objectivity. | |||
| ::I am now going to discuss a comment made above by Future Perfect at Sunrise. He stated that I have previously been blocked by WP:ARBMAC. This is not true. I have been blocked once (for a 24 hour period) in the 3.5 years that I've been here. The reason being was that I made the mistake of revert warring, something I no longer do (hence backing my statements with sources in discussion pages and only making edits when backed by internal article links and reliable primary, secondary and encyclopaedic tertiary sources). Unfortunately at the time of making said transgression (3RR-24h), I believed that all theories about the Bulgars' ancestry be included in the article, as there did not seem to be absolute consensus amongst academics regarding their origins. I was under the impression that Dr. Peter Dobrev's Iranian-Bulgar theory was properly referenced and peer reviewed. However after studying the issue I came to the conclusion that his theory was not supported by a majority of the academic community and therefore most of the evidence pointed to the (Hunno-Bulgar) Turkic theory being correct. In other words, through intense research and education I came to view the Iranian hypothesis that I previously supported as being what Wikipedians refer to as a fringe theory. Therefore I stopped supporting its inclusion and all my edits hence forth were in favour of the Hunno-Bulgar Turkic theory. I have also read about the theory proposed by Dr. Shin Yong-Ha that the Bulgars originally stem from the Korean Peninsula as the Bu-Yeo culture that then migrated to the region presently known as Greater Mongolia. It seems Dr. Shin's premise directly ties to the primary theories about the Bulgars' Altaic (Turkic) origins. In other words, there is growing evidence that the Bulgars stem from central regions of north-eastern Asia. In light of this I was the one that made the edit that the Bulgars originate in the steppes of Mongolia. | |||
| ::I must also ask the following question. What is Misplaced Pages's policy toward users who wrongfully accuse an editor of having a sock puppet? It is not acceptable for people to say such things without there being repercussions, especially when that issue was already investigated. I was also accused of being a sock puppet of Lantonov. This seems to be a favourite strategy of users who cannot disprove your premise and sources and therefore resort to undermining your credibility by connecting you to other editors. If need be I will find the discussion where this was already discussed (anyone who has access to it please feel free to post a link as it is also in WP:ANI) and I will ask that action be taken against those who are currently using this as a way to undermine my efforts to include numerous sources for the articles in question. | |||
| ::Thank you for your time and please feel free to ask me any questions relating to the issues at hand.--] (]) 07:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::'''Oppose''' the ban. To my opinion Monshuai should not be banned. He might be persistent but also he always tries to provide reliable sources and furthermore I think that there is something like double standards between Bulgaria and Greece. What I think is that Monshuai should be advised to use the talk page more often and if his edits are disputed not to edit the article itself but to discuss in the talk page with neutral users (not at all linked to or interested in the Balkans) involved as mediators. I think that recently he is doing exactly that. He really does not deserve to be banned if not at least because of his efforts and the fact that he always provides sources. --] (]) 10:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Support''' the ban. I recently participated in the discussion in and the behavor of the specific user was really disruptive using hardcore ] 'strategy'. While the rest of the users tried to reach a appropriate version for the article's lead, User:Monshuai boycotted all the efforts finally adding a version which was even more unecyclopedic than the initial one ]. (the -cn- tag is prevailing) | |||
| Characteristically: | |||
| *completely ignored ]'s version: ] which I found a good one. | |||
| *also completely ignored ] arguments ] ]. He readded his extreme lead version about Tervel being named Caesar, although he didn't provided a single argument for this. | |||
| *insisted on removing that ], were a Turkic tribe, contradicting User:Gligan's version again ]. | |||
| ::Well, actually that is the proposal of Athenean; mine is below and is almost the same with my suggestions put in bold. I also insist on removing that the Bulgars were Turkic (that is mentioned below and is not good for a lead - as if to put Slavic Bulgarians in every lead) and removing Danube Bulgars Khanate (1. - Not applicable for the whole existence of the state; 2. Not the only possible name - it is also called Bulgarian Khanate and Danube Bulgaria; 3. It is out of context - I have put the term in one of the first sections where it is explained why is that term used sometimes.) --] (]) 13:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I see that the rest of the Bulgarian users are really willing to discuss the issues, most of them ], but Monshuai's extreme edits lead to nothing but creating battlegrounds. Since it's not the first time he tries to initiate a battleground his ban should be the only solution. Very good job ].] (]) 12:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Moreover, this phrase by User:Monshuai isn't a really good approach: meaning that we have also non-neutral administrators here. We should better avoid such comments without giving appropriate explanations. Also giving 20 source in lead is contrary to ], they sould be mentioned in the appropriate sections of the main text.] (]) 13:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::@Athenean are you willing to discuss the use of double standards? As shown in my statement above, all my comments and edits were backed and continue to be backed by reliable sources, something that you tried to disregard. I also ask, what punishment should there be for Athenean after accusing me of having a sock puppet when this is not only a lie but something already investigated and disproven? I believe this is evidence that due to an inability to discredit the sources I have provided said user has attempted to tie me with other editors. Consequently I must ask, how many reliable sources did he provide to back his statements in the First Bulgaria Article discussion page? Everyone can look at the edit history of the article and see that he repeatedly removed credible sources. As Gligan said to Athenean, he was being unproductive. | |||
| ::So please try to discredit the sources if you have a problem with the statements I have made in the First Bulgarian Empire discussion page, because no matter what you say about me I am not the one who wrote those books. In other words, however you try to attack me, the sources I use remain credible. | |||
| ::@Alexikoua, with regard to Tervel, how can you say I didn't provide a single argument when in fact I provided many including a source about his precedent? I will once again post that source: | |||
| ::Ostrogorski, G. (1969). History of the Byzantine state. New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press., p. 143 | |||
| ::I'm also not sure what exactly you mean by us having to avoid comments about non-neutral administrators. Administrators are people, and as such are not completely neutral. However neutrality can be maximized when administrators that are as Gligan puts it, "neutral users (not at all linked to or interested in the Balkans) involved as mediators." | |||
| ::I also invite everyone to read the primary comment I posted above, including the sources I have provided.--] (]) 13:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Support'''. By any means, ] can be qualified as disruptive. Certainly he has made constructive edits in the past by introducing sources to some statements (even though this has led to onverinflation of articles or sections); but considering the number of recent and rather ''destructive'' ones (such as the aforementioned by ]), a bit more severe measures should be taken. Talk pages are being flooded with enormous amounts of words, and why ? Because somebody does not agree about a single word in a head section, or because the given article doesn't follow the exact same model of another, and many other such "issues" that are certainly not worth the sizzles. | |||
| :Playing the "double standards" card or any tricks like that won't work, because the user has persistently refused to aknowledge other opinions and impose his own, as seen in the discussions of ] , and ] . It's not about facts or sources here; we're talking about the "article ownership" attitude and lack of understanding to any change that doesn't reflect Monshuai's point of view. Any logical proposition by other users gets drowned by Monshuai in a storm of random arguments and accusations about "misjudgement" (or anything like that) . All of the users he has argued with, have been neutral, and none of them tried to impose a biased point of view. No matter at what level we discuss this, there is a general consensus about the negative essence of Monshuai's actions. - ☣'']'' <sup>]</sup> 13:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::] says that I pretend to have "article ownership", whereas in fact of the last 500 article edits of the Bulgaria article 106 are by him. In comparison I have made 11 of the last 500 edits there. In other words, his edits comprise 21.2% of the edits/reverts, while mine comprise 2.2%. So as you can see, rather than just make edits like Tourbillon, I discuss issues in the talk page. I also use sources to back my statements. '''I also want to note that on Tourbillon's user page he states that he does "NOT care about democratic principles, supports authoritarian rule, and is against democratic fanaticism."''' Is that the kind of neutrality he speaks of? Is that what Misplaced Pages principles are? Unlike Tourbillon, I don't like the authoritarian control he values, including his self-righteous proclamation that he and other involved users are neutral. Human beings, especially those involved in specific issues, are not neutral (including me). I however can admit it! Finally, unlike him I am for democratic principles especially the right to share one's view and to use sources to back it. --] (]) 13:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| The number of edits I have made to the ] page have seen an introduction of sources, removal of unsourced information, reduction of the enormous size of the article, and so on. I never stated my opinion there neither have I imposed it, nor have I argued with at least 5 people to prove them I'm completely correct (so, ironically, my "un-democratic values" have shown more understanding towards other opinions than yours). The few edits you have made, have brought you here - so I'm not sure whether I should be a subject of discussion here at all. - ☣'']'' <sup>]</sup> 13:57, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :You are the one who said I claim to have article ownership, whereas based on your edit history it is you who dominates said article. Also, I believe it is fully democratic to intellectually debate with as you say "at least 5 people", unless of course you consider the opinion of at least 5 people to be reflective of a democratic majority or worse yet the authoritarian regime you support. Based on your views about authoritarian rule and your NOT caring about democratic principles, it is clear why you maintain the Bulgaria article as you see fit and thereby have attempted to stop me from sharing statements backed by sources in the talk pages.--] (]) 14:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Your accusations are once again hollow - because apparently you do not make a difference between "number of edits" and "essence of edits". Nobody has a limitation on how many edits to make; if an article had a number of (neutrality, factual accuracy, verifiability) issues, they were to be fixed. As I did, and nobody reverted the changes I made. My edits have been constructive, yours - mostly destructive. I have discussed freely page content with other users - you have rejected their opinions. So please do not talk about me, we are discussing your actions here. - ☣'']'' <sup>]</sup> 14:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :You are deflecting scrutiny of your values and actions, which is unethical. In other words, you have the right to say anything about me, but I don't have the right to point out what you yourself admit to think and likewise what you do? You also say that no one has a limitation on how many edits they make. There is also no limitation on how many statements one makes in a talk page, especially when they are backed by sources and when one is using that talk page in order to avoid a revert war. The fact that you do not want me to discuss you is also undemocratic. Remember you came here to discuss me before I even had a chance to know about what was being said and therefore before I could defend myself, whereas the only time I discuss you (or others) is when you have full knowledge of my comments.--] (]) 14:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::A lot of examples have been given above, reflecting your opinion imposement and deconstructive edits (in other words, your current hypocrisy in teaching me how to value other people's opinions); This section of the noticeboard is about you. If I were so bad, I would've already been discussed here. My opinion has been expressed, as well as that of several other editors here; you should really start defending yourself, and stop accusing me about what I am, and leave any unrelated topics aside. - ☣'']'' <sup>]</sup> 14:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::If you had read my original statement (you have already stated before you don't read my "massive posts") you would have seen that I did defend myself and I backed each of my statements with sources. I also gave a lot of examples, as you say. Now I am giving examples with respect to one of my accusers, YOU. This is important because by way of your support for authoritarianism, not caring for democratic principles and your statements on the talk pages, I am showing that you are unwilling to accept a perspective that is in disagreement with your own. This is the case even when my comments are backed by sources. An example of this is when you stated on the Bulgaria talk page, "Jesus Christ, I won't even bother reading this." This was in reference to my post which was 574 words long in comparison to the post that you made before (and to which I was responding) that was 240 words long. You admitted that you do not want to read my comment because it wasn't summarised, even though it would have taken far longer for you to write you post. Again, your post was 42% as large as my "unreadable" reply. As I said before, your disregard for my posts is unfair. Reading speed is multiple times faster than typing speed. Therefore, you simply showed that you are unwilling to acknowledge the points I provide to counter your posts. That's another authoritarian action on your part.--] (]) 14:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You can keep all this up, I don't mind. You're not working for yourself, though. You're just aggravating the situation. - ☣'']'' <sup>]</sup> 14:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I am doing here what I did in the talk pages (which is to back and defend my statements). Also, it seems rather strange that you are suddenly concerned about me and thus giving me advice as to what I should say in order to be "working for myself" when in fact you originally stated that I have a negative essence. There is an incongruency there. Neutrality and objectivity means that actions, double standards and self-proclaimed values be scrutinized with regard to the current dynamics.--] (]) 15:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::We see this a lot, actually. Someone is brought here for tendentious, mission-based editing, and the first thing the accused party points to is a 'double-standard'. The filing party provided ''one hundred and fifty diffs'' of you adding overwhelmingly pro-Bulgarian material to articles and shouting down people who dispute you. You've got a ways to go to prove yourself the victim here. --] 15:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::As I stated earlier, I have made mistakes in the past including a 3RR revert in support of Dr. Peter Dobrev (of the Economic unit of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences) and his theory. I then however (over a few months) re-checked his sources, read six seperate books, studied peer reviewed academic articles on the matter and finally came to the conclusion that what he was presenting is a fringe theory. I admitted this and since then I have been an adamant supporter of another premise supported by a majority of academics. I also learned a lesson, which was to always read credible sources (start to finish) about the various issues discussed in Misplaced Pages and discuss this on talk pages. Furthermore, I did say that I am open to criticism and that I fully realize that I am fallible and full of defects. No doubt about it. My style of communication needs to improve, become gentle and more articulate. That said, I have used credible sources to support my recent statements (including those about said standards). The errors I've made in the past, for which I've already had to defend myself in the past, are not directly tied to the sources I brought to this discussion. Again, I openly admit past errors and the improperly unreferenced comments that I made then are not like the referenced comments I have made recently and herein. Also, I do not believe I am a victim (as you say), however I do have the right to defend myself. Speaking of that, one can conjecture that when double standards are used, everyone is negatively affected if even a little bit, including the people that are using the double standards in the first place and of course all others who are interested in objective encyclopaedic knowledge. Finally, my "negative essence" or "maniacal tenacity" or anything else said about my character and the fallacies that I've indentified in myself do not change the reliability of my sources.--] (]) 16:23, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Support''' the ban. I was recently involved in the discussion on ], where ]'s attitude was counter-productive and disruptive to the extreme. His primary "debating tools" were personal attacks and inflammatory statements, to the point that other well-meaning contributors were driven away from the discussion simply because it was becoming a resource-drain for them. | |||
| :The resource-drain aspect is also partly a result of Monshuai's tendency to be excessively verbose. This of course does not in itself constitute a reason for banning - however he frequently uses verbosity as a means for lending himself an air of authority, while not making any meaningful points. It seems that for him this is also an effective way to deter others from actually attempting to engage in a discussion with him. The following, in response to a reasonable point by ], is one of the best examples : "So far we've had your misinformed opinion on these matters and consequent shifts in the premise whenever it is shown to utilize what is known by logicians as fallacious reasoning. In this case, you've employed two argumentative misconstructions that amplify the errors and/or incompleteness in your original assertions and therefore lead to defective conclusions. By doing so you have unfortunately committed both a formal fallacy and an informal fallacy." | |||
| :For whatever it's worth, I just wanted to quickly voice my opinion on this. I have a great deal of appreciation for Monshuai's constructive contributions, and a great deal of respect for the time he dedicates to his research, but I feel that on the whole his presence on Misplaced Pages is detrimental - both to Misplaced Pages's content as well as to the community. ] (]) 18:23, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::After a long debate and analysis of the sources you provided at the end in the John Atanasoff talk page I accepted the conclusions you made. I stated that "I thank Tomatoman for looking at the evidence as impartially as he could." I showed respect towards your research and I have accepted that your position as sourced was the correct one. Consequently I have not gone back to the discussion page. As I said, I value reliable sources provided by users even if I do not agree with specific comments that they make about me. That said, the statements that I made that prompted this discussion herein are also backed by credible sources. I also don't think that my verbose writing style is incorrect. The terms formal fallacy and informal fallacy exist. Also, in the statement you refer to, Tourbillon stated that exhibits cannot be used to determine national history as the Louvre shows artefacts from around the world. I then provided a source about the National Museum of Bulgarian History in which it is clearly stated that it (unlike ie: the Louvre) only shows artefacts from Bulgaria's heritage and not those that come from other countries. While English is not my first language I have worked hard to learn to write well. Yes, it's true I can become more articulate. Yes it's true that I must be more diplomatic. Yes, I can always use sources to back my statements and I do that. Part of the lesson that I learned from my discussion with you is that sources can bring debates to a fruitful closure. However, as I brought sources to the table in my recent discussions I was accused of using non reliable sources, of not providing page numbers, etc...--] (]) 19:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| '''Strongly oppose''' the ban. User Monshuai is one of the very few wikipedians that write on Balkan topics that I really respect. He brings fantastic sources, arguments them like few and has no ''Bulgaria-related antiquity frenzy'' or ''aggrandization of Bulgarian scientific achievements''. I think ]'s accusations are completely unfounded. If someone finds Monshuai ''verbose'', then that someone has problems with understanding of the English language and critical thinking. Particularly I think that Monshuai has done a good job defending the Bulgarian American legacy of Atanassoff and I have given my opinion in the talk page for that matter. As a matter of fact I find that many contributors have pushed Monshuai to get him upset, and the fact that he has not taken the bait, upsets these users even more. ] (]) --Sulmues 19:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Ah, something would have been really amiss if Sulmues wasn't following me around and doing everything in his power that he thinks would spite me. He is canvassing every Bulgarian user he knows, and any and all Albanian, and Macedonian users that he thinks may have an axe to grind either against myself or Greeks in general: . This is extremely disruptive and needs to stop. I have warned him in the past that canvassing is unacceptable , so he fully knows that what he is doing is wrong. I believe this warrants a block. ] (]) 20:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::So Sulmues exercises his right to share his opinion and now you want him banned too just because that opinion is not the same as yours?--] (]) 20:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::One, I am not trying to get him banned, but what he is doing is definitely blockable. Second, read WP:CANVAS (not that it's going to make a difference, but anyway). ] (]) 21:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I read the WP:CANVAS link you provided and it states that "Limited posting AND Neutral AND Nonpartisan AND Open" is acceptable. Sulmues has not told anyone what to think, nor has he sent private messages to these users. The messages are open.--] (]) 21:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Except that the users involved are all from selected ethnic groups, hence the "Neutral" and "Nonpartisan" parts are a bit problematic. ] (]) 21:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Sulmues informed only a number of Bulgarian and a Albanian user, accidentally avoiding any Greek one. Moreover this ] is unacceptable ... defending Sulmues while he was disruptive.] (]) 21:29, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Alexikoua, I have the right to share my opinion. Could it be that most of the Greek users that Sulmues knows are already here attacking me? Which other Greek users should he have informed?--] (]) 21:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::That's exactly the case: I see the greek users (FPS, Athenean, and Alexikoua) casting their vote to boot Monshuai out of the English Misplaced Pages project and Monshuai trying to desperately defend himself: FPS advises Athenean to bring the case to ANI () because "it's faster". In this case having other editors involved in this decision is extremely important so that we can defend Monshuai's excellent work in Misplaced Pages. Countless hours of contributions could be lost if the Greek users find their way. I posted a friendly notice to a limited number of people who are not only Bulgarians (that is just not true), but are very knowledgable with Monshuai's work because I have seen their postings close to Monshuai’s. These people know what Monshuai has done and could be interested in this vote cast.] (]) --Sulmues 21:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::You selectively contacted users either of the same ethnicity as Monshuai (Preslav, TodorBozhinov, Laveol), from your own (Kedadi), or from an ethnicity with a known vendetta against Greece (Mactruth). Why not have contacted neutral users, e.g. Moreschi? But the point is not who to contact, but why contact anyone at all? Actually, now that you have canvassed these users' talkpages, if (and that's a big IF, considering even other Bulgarian users support his ban) they come to Monshuai's aid that will be taken into account by the community and reduce the value of their support. Whereas if no canvassing had occurred and they had come here on their own, their voice would have had more weight. So by canvassing them in the manner you have done, you have potentially done Monshuai a great disservice. ] (]) 22:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::For what I am concerned I really respect Monshuai's work. I have enjoyed the perspective he has put in the English Misplaced Pages and I honestly think that contributors like him who challenge the status quo and undermine weak arguments really deserve to bring their contributions in this project. I am trying to make the Misplaced Pages community aware of what Athenean is doing. If the ANI is fast like FPS says, then it may reach hasty conclusions. Athenean, you are trying to get a very respected contributor banned from Misplaced Pages and the community needs to know. What are you affraid of if these users are so biased? It's you working in tandem with Alexikoua and FPS running to your aid that should be reported, not Monshuai or I. FPS giving you advice in your talk page is particularly unethical: he is an admin and of Greek ancestry and should keep his distance from these cases. And I repeat, I posted friendly notices. Btw I had no idea about Mactruth's vendetta against Greece, so you really need to remember ]. Moreschi (who has already blocked you in the past) is idle and also tired of hearing from you and me after all the accusations that you have unjustly written about me in his talk page (]) I don't think he has any desire to see you give other false accusations. ] (]) --Sulmues 22:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Sulmues never shared the same interests with Monshuai, not in a single article so far. Actually he came here just by checking Athenean's contribution history and I'm not surprised that a user with such a record still continues to be disruptive. Not to mention that he received barnstars by someone that posted against Athenean.] (]) 23:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::@Alexikoua: If you are trying to blacken my contribution to Wikipiedia by describing my "bad character" through showing blocks that I have gotten thanks to you working in tandem with Athenean, why don't you start changing your own behavior towards me and become more civil? So far every time that Athenean reports me, I'm sure to see you running on his aid and spite me. That is called WORKING IN TANDEM. Only in the last two days I have received the following insults or trolling comments from you in one single talk page (@]]] see , , , , , where Vangjel Zhapa is falsely called of Greek ethnicity: I provide all the sources in the talk page to assert that Vangjel Zapa is instead, Albanian, and all I get is insults), and I cannot even delete these insults because you revert me so that your insulting style can show forever. I have received continuous provocations from you and Athenean and so have many Albanian users who have been reported by you and Athenean in tandem. I am not going to let that happen now to the Bulgarian users. Once that you will have gotten rid of the Albanians, Monshuai is in your agenda and I'll do whatever it takes to not to let that happen. I have read Monshuai's work in Atanassoff's case and I have made edits on it, and I have have left this message to his talk page before (), so your accusations are, as always, empty. ] (]) --Sulmues 23:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Support'''. See ]. He firstly accused two editors: ] and myself of hypocrisy because that edit of Fut. Perf. and my opinion didn't stand well with his nationalistic POV. Even in the "defense" he wrote on this page he used as arguments things that I already clarified, for example I already mentioned twice or trice that by "lands occupied now by Bulgarians" I simply meant "lands ''inhabited'' now by Bulgarians" and didn't mean "occupation" as in the sense of "taking land illegally" however this clarification doesn't serve his purpose to accuse people of racism (he repeated the accusation on this page) and he chose to ignore it and even capitalized "OCCUPATION" to make his point. I see this as an act of bad faith. I got tired of responding to his logorrheic non-factual derailing strawmen accusation and I just gave up continuing the discussion. Misplaced Pages would be a better place without this individual. ] 06:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Man with one red shoe, I think it is very necessary for people to read our original discussion start to finish. Also, I have already given you 4 examples of you being hypocritical. Since you insist on continuing the discussion here I am going to list those examples below: | |||
| ::(1) You decided to initiate a conversation on my talk page and then stated that you do not want me posting on your talk page. This is hypocritical because you were doing something to me that you did not want done to you. | |||
| ::(2) Even though you were being hypocritical I decided to respect your wish and not post on your talk page. Nonetheless, you decided to again come back to my talk page and swear. You then stated that this wasn't as bad as it could have been, because according to you using the word "shat" was a form of self-censorship. '''Your words were, "I wanted to say "shit", but then I remembered that some Misplaced Pages admins are morons, I don't know why I censured myself, is not in my habit, in any case I remove myself from this discussion I don't want ever to discuss with this guy."''' | |||
| ::(3) You stated that you were offended when I called you hypocritical, yet it was alright for you to say I am delusional. Psychiatry defines the term delusional more specifically as a belief that is pathological (the result of an illness or illness process). So by calling me delusional, were you accusing me of being sick/mentally ill? I backed my statements with evidence, can you back yours? Either way, I accept your right to think and say this about me. | |||
| ::(4) You claimed that Bulgaria's ancient heritage is not notable and therefore should not be mentioned in the lede, whilst using Japan and the Japanese people as evidence for your assertion. Once I provided sources that showed that a significant number of Japanese do in fact have interest in Bulgaria's ancient history, you went on to say that 16 million Japanese people (2.1 times Bulgaria's population and 12.54% of the world's 10th most populous nation) is a few. In other words, when evidence was presented to disprove your premise using criteria that you had established, you disregarded it. | |||
| ::Your original statement about Bulgarians, was NOT that they were inhabiting the land, but that they are occupying ancient lands. I responded to this by pointing out that (a)it made it seem as though Bulgarians did not have a right to claim the heritage of their land and (b)that they were on someone else's land. You then decided to change the sentence by using the word "inhabit", which is an indirect confirmation on your part that your original statement was divisive. Even regarding its changed wording, Bulgarians are not "inhabiting" a land to which they have no ancient connection. After all, Bulgarians (like all modern ethnicities) are a composite nation formed by multiple ancestral groups, one of which produced its land's ancient heritage in antiquity. I also explained that modern states are not direct products of ancient states, but rather institutionally formed in large part due to the international law, specifically concept of sovereignty, solidified by the Treaty of Westphalia. Thus while modern ] is considered to be a largely Arab and Islamic country that is not a direct product of the Sumerian civilization, its peoples' links to the territory's ancient past remains a reality. This concept is acknowledged throughout the world and is respected in Iraq's lede as well as many other country ledes. Yet strangely for the Balkans, only Greece has a lede that mentions this. Countries such as Albania with its ancient Illyrian heritage as well as Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Bulgaria etc with their respective ancient legacies have been told that they cannot have this information in their ledes.--] (]) 07:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Weak '''Support'''. I think some aspects of ]'s behaviour are best described by ]. His behaviour has been mostly disruptive such that Misplaced Pages would be better off without him, but he also seems to have a great knowledge on Bulgarian history (a.o.) and his point of view and the references supporting it would be a welcome addition to Misplaced Pages. I am in favour of any measure which would encourage him to devote his time and energy on writing and expanding Misplaced Pages articles, and not on elaborate discussions on talk pages (95%+ of his recent edits were on talk pages). Maybe a partial ban on editting overview articles on Bulgarian, Greek and Byzantine history (those that are part of a series), while allowing him to expand articles on details of those histories, would be the best solution? I also think that the behaviour of some of those proposing or supporting a ban here can also be described as POV-pushing (less disruptive, but also less polite than ]). ] (]) 11:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :By your vote you just proved my point that I did not invite only pro-Bulgarians to defend Monshuai, contrarily to the accusations given me by ] above. You are asserting that he should be talking less in talk pages, but the reason why he is doing it is that the Greek editors work in tandem against him, so he is desperately trying to assert his references through talk pages. There is no POV pushing here, on the contrary, the Greek editors, deleting his references are POV pushing and I'll show below some examples. Monshuai is trying to collaborate with the Greek editors who are already bunched up to revert him without falling into the 3RR trap. He is left with no choice but to try to enter his legacy in the talk pages so that some other Bulgarian can pick his fights up and restate the truth. A partial ban that you are proposing, given Monshuai's interest in Bulgarian history is really a strong support and I would invite you to reconsider. The Greek contribution to the Bulgaria related pages tries to assert that '''Bulgarians of today are nothing but people who have come to the Balkans in the 4th to 7th century'''. The Greek editors have already done that in the Albanian pages. Their agenda tries to demonstrate that the only autochtonous people in the Balkans are the Greeks. In fact, the Greek editors try to assert in Misplaced Pages that there was no merge whatsoever between the Thracians and the Slavs, but the newcomers destroyed the ancient populations and there is no trace of the old ones. The only ancient civilization remaining in the Balkans is the Greek civilization. This is '''not corresponding to truth and Monshuai demonstrates it'''. The Slavic populations have merged with the Thracian one and no one can say that today's Bulgarians are only Slavs and nothing is left from the Thracian ancestry. The Thracian population and civilization merged with the newcoming Slavic civilization and the result was a population that constitutes the modern Bulgarian civilization. The genetics have already proved that the Bulgarians are a mediterranean population (see ], but the Greeks make sure to keep 15 references in ] to assert that they came from the Northern Caucasian Steppe. I wish they were so eager to keep the references that demonstrate the theory that '''Albanian descends from Illyrian''' (but no: the Greek editor ], who is proposing this ban made sure to delete all 72 references three times (see reverts , , ) and asserted it only as "one of the theories" . By the same token, the Greek contributors assert that the Albanians appear only in the 11th century, failing to acknowledge that the Albanoi Illyrian tribe has been mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd century BC as Arbon, in the 2nd century AD by Polibus as Albanoi, and in the 6th century as Albonios by Stephanus of Bysantium as, see (]). The Greek editors are just affraid of having an editor that brings much better sources than theirs and they have a history of removing the sources (see only in the last pages what they do by continous blanking of the references (, , ) which is not nice, but disruptive. Rather than accusing Monshuai of being POV-Pushing and disruptive, Proslav, try to understand that once that the Greek editors are done with the Albanians their next target is the Bulgarians and the Macedonian editors. Take a look at the cemetery of editors that this war has produced (]). The ARBMAC has to completely be reorganized as it's the biggest graveyard of truth you'll find in Misplaced Pages concerning the Balkan topics. ] (]) --Sulmues 15:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| '''Weak Support''' All one needs do is see some of the very long discussions that Monshuai drags out with his irksome tendency to refuse to accept that consensus is sometimes going to be against him. This is usually done by persisting with inadmissible arguments such as "double standards" and ], sometimes leading to retaliatory ] disruption on other articles. This reduces the ability of the editors that have the energy to continue debating with him to work on anything else. At the very least, a topic ban from editing articles and talkpages where his participation is at its most tendentious should be considered.--] (]) 16:03, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :(1) If Ptolion believes that evidence of double standards is an inadmissible argument, then what is his proposition for the resolution of these double standards? What is more important, the inadmissibility of evidence that double standards exist or the inadmissibility of the double standards themselves? Also, if a number of Greek editors maintain that their edits in the First Bulgarian Empire article are correct (whilst calling my sourced edits disruptive), then they should be happy that their correct standards also be used in the Byzantine Empire article. However the irony is that the application of their standards to Greek articles is also called disruptive and/or retaliatory by the very same people. This is a severe incongruity that leads one to consider two primary possibilities. | |||
| :(a) The proper standards are used in the Greek history article ledes, while improper standards are used for the history article ledes of other Balkan countries. | |||
| :(b) The improper standards are used in the Greek history article ledes, while the proper standards are used for the history article ledes of other Balkan countries. | |||
| :If (a), then it means that the other Balkan country article ledes be brought up to date with information regarding their ancient heritage. | |||
| :If (b), then it means that the Greece article lede be brought up to date with only information reflecting the unified country itself (shared borders, central governance, etc), which does not include city states more than 2 millenia ago. | |||
| :(2) Sulmues makes very good points. It is important that administrators who have not edited Balkan related articles look at the region's respective country article ledes (and other history pieces) and note the disparities. These admins could form a task group that ultimately decides what information is admissible and likewise inadmissible for all involved countries. In other words, they would have the challenging and interesting task of creating transparency.--] (]) 17:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::The reason I am asking for a full community ban as opposed to a topic-ban is that no articles are going to be immune from Monshuai, even those are only the most tangentially related to Bulgaria, for example ] , ] , ] , or ] . If he is topic banned on Bulgaria-related topics, there is no telling where his tendentiousness will be turned towards, whether it is some plant species discovered by a Bulgarian scientist, or some rock formation in Antarctica named after a place in Bulgaria. When it's this intense for this long, a topic-ban will not work. Not to mention that the ban will have to be continuously monitored and policed by the community. We can't expect that our users spend their time in this fashion, monitoring the topic-ban of every kook out there, instead of building content. ] (]) 18:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Nice case-filing, Athenean. It must have taken quite some time to properly collect all the diffs.:P From the little I've seen on the past few days, I can tell that the attitude of the editor involved is not... constructive. There's also the "That's that.PERIOD" thing, that is quite annoying. (Well, he's not the first or the last that does that around here, but at least this one does it excessively often, often enought to annoy.) Just a comment: Monshuai, the discussion here at ANI is about your behavior, not the articles or the outcome of their discussion. So, don't bring the discussions here, because it's just pointless to do so.--] (]) 22:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{discussion bottom}} | |||
| == ] Indef Block consensus review. == | |||
| {{Hat|These issues are pending attention at ], collapsing for readability.}} | |||
| ProofReader is currently blocked. He was originally blocked for 48 hours and then recently this was extended to indefinite. With the utmost respect to ] I think this is a bit extreme. The user is blocked and is doing what he normally does in his blocks, gather documentation and talk about going to ARBCOM. However it is on his talkpage.....and if admin simply ] or salt his talk page during his block the issue is solved. I also didn't see justification for the block lengthing and find it somewhat punitive aalthough it may not have been meant that way. I'd like to have the community discuss to gain a Consensus on if this is a way we want to go. ] (]) 22:37, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :The indefinite length is wholly preventative. If Pr77 carries on with wikilawyering, trolling and months-long threats to take flocks of editors to arbcom, which are meant only to frighten others from dealing with him, his talk page should be shut down too. ] (]) 22:44, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *I '''support''' the indefinite block, which does not necessarily mean "permanent," and agree with Gwen's comment above. The fact that the user "is doing what he normally does in his blocks" speaks to the general problem here, namely that Proofreader77 has engaged in troubling and at times bizarre behavior of a disruptive nature in the past. There is no sign of that stopping, and it's already wasted a lot of time. This latest incident that led to the initial block was discussed ]. Personally I have severe doubts that Proofreader77 is contributing in good faith, and given past incidents I think an indefinite block is completely appropriate. If there was any indication that the behavior was going to change then certainly an unblock would be worth considering. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 22:47, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::He's said he was taking people to arbcom before. To my knowledge he never has, let him vent his frustrations. If you think that salting the talkpage will help great but a indef for documentation for something he fels is unfair. It isn't paticullarly disruptive if you ignore it. ] (]) 22:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::I did not lengthen the block to indefinite because of his sandbox. ] (]) 22:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::(ec) Blocks, including indefinite blocks, do not require consensus to impose; they however generally require consensus (or ArbCom) to overturn. So far the blocked user himself has not yet made an unblock request, so an ANI discussion is probably premature. That said, I am not quite sure why the block was increased from 48h to indefinite. Just because of the weird wikilawyering on the user talk page? A block won't stop ''that''. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 22:58, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::To Hell In A Bucket, I respectively disagree and think Proofreader's behavior is quite disruptive, though the issue goes well beyond what was posted at that editor's talk page. As I said at WP:AN, I would have supported an indef simply because of the behavior discussed there and the past problems. Almost every comment I've ever seen from Proofreader77 involved mockery, jokey poetry, or drama-mongering (often all three combined). If there is something else I'm missing let me know, but the positive contributions would have to be pretty strong to outweigh what seems a clear path of disruptive editing, the reasons for which are difficult to comprehend. We're all volunteers with limited time and one of the things we need to get a lot better at collectively is saying "you're not helping, rather you're wasting our time with this nonsense, go away now" to people who are here to play games and stir the proverbial pot rather than help write and maintain the encyclopedia. I think that's where we are at with Proofreader77, but I'm serious when I say you should let me know if there are a bunch of positives I'm missing which should cause us to reach out to this editor and try to deal with the problems. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 23:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I have my differences with Proof. He can be irritating and I was invovled with his first block. Yes he is a bit eccentric with the poems and such, but as you point out we are all volunteers and he has made monetary contributions for us to be here. I'm not suggesting this gives him carte blanche in anyway to be disruptive but it is something to consider. He's been here a few years and does have wiki's best interest in heart. If you can point out how he doesn't I'd be interested in knowing but if that is my base premise on Proof I simply understand he has a unique way of expressing himself to the community and I'm not the person who has to like it. He does.{{unsigned|Hell in a Bucket}} | |||
| :::::::::The fact that Proofreader donated money could not be less relevant, and indeed from what I can gather in the past the user was essentially threatening to not do that anymore (or take it back) if something did not go their way. That's not good. My point is not that Proofreader does not have Misplaced Pages's best interests at heart—perhaps they do (I have no idea). My point is that the evidence of disruption is extensive and ongoing. We can't accommodate people who ''maybe'' are trying to help but who in all their time here go after others, disrupt conversations, and generally waste time and piss people off (if everyone has a problem with how they communicate, that's pretty relevant). We have behavioral norms so we can work together, and people who can't follow them should not be here, just as is the case for organizations (volunteer or otherwise) in the real world. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 23:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :"Threatening to go to arbcom" as justification for an indef? Asking for a proper block notice is wikilawyering? Pathetic. ] (]) 22:51, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::As I said above, if Proofread77 has made good contributions recently that would suggest we should keep them around I'm very much open to hearing about them, all I've seen is disruptive editing. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 23:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' If this was only about the threat to go to ArbCom, I would oppose. However, this user has a history of problematic edits to Misplaced Pages and user talk space. I don't see this changing, and the only unblock I would support would a limited one for him to finally file his long promised case against anyone and everyone. ] 22:55, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::So if you cut your finger with a paper you amputate the hand? That doesn't make sense....] (]) 22:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::If you keep cutting your fingers off, it might not be a bad idea though. He's consistently disruptive. We don't need an editor like that. ] 23:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose Indef Block''' I browsed over the myriad of links prior to this, and I definite agree that Gwen Gale was out of line. However, i'm not sure why he was blocked in the first place, and i'd be happy to get more information on what exactly happened here. ] (]) 23:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Support'''. Pr77 has a history of being problematic and refusing to get the point when blocked. Indefinite does not have to mean ''infinite'', but maybe a month or so away from the project might help him get the point. ] | ] 23:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' ...reluctantly. The rationale would seem weak normally, but he adds those freaking little "documentations" things in places other than his userspace, wherever something happens that he disagrees with. Proofreader has consistently shown himself to be a non-constructive presence at this encyclopedia. He's a ] to everyone, and ] with ], that originally sparked the exchange that led to the block, is just the latest example. If he wants to vent, he should write an essay in userspace or something, rather than continually remind everyone he comes into contact with about how badly everything works around here and that eventually he plans to do something about it. It's enough already. I'd support unblocking him if he said he'd stop with that crap, though I'm not sure if he has the ability to understand what exactly the problem is. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 23:06, 14 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| * About bloody time. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:07, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' As said by others already, the user has a history of being problematic, and given the threats for arbcom and the general...stubbornness(?) I would almost call it contempt (per arbcom threats)...he shows when people tell him he's in the wrong, he doesn't seem to have the right attitude for an encyclopedia at the moment. However, also as stated above, indefinite != permanent. I would also like to see him actually file an arbitration request as he has long been promising rather than holding it as a threat over everyone's heads. ] <sup>(]•]•])</sup> 23:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - ] generally exists to prevent users from coercing other users to do what they want. Arbcom is essentially our court system, and 77 was threatening anyone who he had thought wronged him, or disagreed with him with with a potential case about their own actions. Yes, NLT was aimed at the actual court systems, but the fact remains that 77 was using Arbcom to get other users to stop discussing his poor behavior. If this block remains, he'll hopefully someday realize why it is bad to act as he has been. Why it is bad to threaten users to get what you want. This kind of stuff shouldn't be allowed(threatening with arbcom to coerce). Long deserved, good block.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 23:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Neutral''' One of the things that I think everyone needs to remember here is that while forceful, he still has his points. I think in a sense, he has been disruptive, and does in fact deserve a block. Comments, Allegations, etc. seem to only stem when he is backed against a wall and he wants to force his way out. We, as Wikipedians, need to remember the difference between reality and the online world. He, in essence, has not shown he can differ between the two. I support a block, but I oppose an indef block. While disruptive, he has shown that he can be a constructive editor. I think that one of the larger underlying issues is that there may have been bad faith blocks made in the past, and there is still a grudge being held there. If there is, ArbCom cannot help him there. That is the past, and as such, he needs to get over it. If he has such an issue with Sysops on Misplaced Pages, then he shouldn't edit here. If he continues to try to make a point, I think that an Indef block might be acceptable, as the disruption could possibly be more than on his userpage and talk page. Continuously crying and saying "I'm going to ArbCom" or "I'm collecting evidence for ArbCom" only shows that he is not willing to accept a penalty for his actions. <font face="Segoe script">]]</font> 23:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :*I've asked this above and really would be interested in any information, but on what basis do you conclude that Proofreader "has shown that he can be a constructive editor?" I don't doubt you and am not familiar with Proofreaders' every contribution, but I've scrolled through the last 1500 edits (which go back to late December) and do not see a whole lot there besides talk page comments and notes in drama forums. It seems the only article this editor has created is ] which is about someone who has a web site with a name like Proofreaders' own web site. My point is that I'd be much more inclined to work something out with this editor if there was evidence they were really helping out the project, but I just have not see that, or at least not anytime in the recent past. If there is something I'm missing, which is quite possible, please let me know. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 23:43, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' He's been disruptive, and his constant threats of going to Arbcom are just threats to frighten off other editors. Now, he can finally have time to file that ] Arbcom case, and see what they think. And for the last time, no one should care how much money he's donated. ] (]) 23:37, 14 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' Indef Block. It's to extreeme. ] (]) 00:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I don't see any diffs for blockable behavior, or any significant discussion prior to the block. It's hard for any uninvolved editor like myself to see why this account was blocked indefinitely. Folks should really do a better job of documenting blocks for non-obvious reasons like "trolling". <b>] ] </b> 00:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :The block is for ]. ] (]) 00:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Disruption of what? <b>] ] </b> 00:50, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::The encyclopedia. ] (]) 00:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::How did he disrupt the encyclopedia? Can you please explain more fully with diffs? ] (]) 01:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strongly oppose''', and for the first and hopefully last time in my entire life, I agree with DuncanHill and Doc Quintana. This is I have seen Gwen Gale use admin tools in an abrupt way when another admin has already dealt with the situation. This is a terrible, terrible block. ] | ] 00:52, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| <s>::'''Strong oppose''' as per Tan. <swatiska redacted> ] <swatiska redacted> 00:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</s> | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - With Gwen Gale's almost refusal to provide any form of diffs for this block and where she directs at the bottom sub-section to go to her talk page (when there she direct users to this ANI thread), I see no reason for an indef block when there are little to no diffs and lots of questions. Request an uninvolved admin roll the block back to the previous <s>2 weeks</s> 2 days until Gwen Gale can produce some diffs on why this ''has'' to be an indef block, otherwise it just looks like punishment than a block. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 00:57, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| :It was actually '''2 Days'''. ] (]) 01:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::HellinaBucket is correct and I will change that. Thanks. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 01:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| *'''Oppose'''- Proofreader was a bit obtrusive but nothing imo worthy of an indef.] (]) 01:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment'' Proof has not, at this moment, requested an unblock. ] (]) 01:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Indefinite is a very nuanced tariff, mostly it is "forever" but sometimes it is "for as long as necessary" - if this was "for as long as necessary" then I would support, but the response above indicates that most people would want it to be "forever"... and I do not see the disruption being so severe as to require that. I also have some dealings with P77, and while eccentric do not raise to the level of disruption - I also think that having someone with a different perspective, one who makes others take the trouble to rationalise what they are doing, is of a benefit to the project. Such an individual is Proofreader77, and I think a fairly long but finite block is all that is required in this instance. ] (]) 14:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. I oppose indefinite blocks as a matter of general principle. Any serious editor will be more careful even after a three month block. A pure vandal on receiving an indefinite block will merely discard the account and start again. If a serious editor is not careful after a three month block and gets another three month block, so what? Eventually they will come to realize what is acceptable behaviour if they wish to engage in constructive and uninterrupted editing. ] (]) 03:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ===Question For Gwen Gale=== | |||
| Could you provide some diffs explaining why an indef block is necessary here? ] (]) 00:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I already answered this on my talk page. When I asked you to take this to ANI, I was thinking of any further input you might have. ] (]) 00:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, you didn't answer this at all, you just said look at his contributions, which number around 15,000. Can you please answer the question? ] (]) 00:50, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Put it this way, click on any 20 of his contributions from the last one or two months and the ] straightforwardly shows up. If you don't agree, that's what this thread is for. ] (]) 00:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Gwen, stop beating around the bush and give us some diffs or this looks like admin abuse. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 01:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| :::::I concur. If I had administative powers, I would revert the indef block at this point. I am not sure about the 48 hour block, but I am definitely sure now that the indef block is inappropriate. ] (]) 01:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Like I say I have my differences with Proof but I had my own block extended at one point in this same manner. Proof documentating a case for arbcom is his own thing. That is his business Christ if the shoe fits wear it, if not brush it off and have confidence in your own actions and his documentation will lead nowhere. It does sometimes appear to be ] but if he feels there is a issue he can appeal to Arbcom. Blocking him for preparing his case is ludicrous and can be seen as a ] for both sides. Per the blocking policy unless he commits another infraction while being blocked that he has previously been warned for the original block should never be lengthened. Most of this can be immediately cleared up with a specific diff that violates a ''referenced policy'', thus justifying the need for extending the already proscribed remedy. ] (]) 01:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Some folks here really ought to do what Gwen is suggesting, even if you think it comes across as a brush off—click on any set of 20 diffs from the last couple of months and determine if you think this is really a user who is here to help, or to have a bit of a laugh and waste time. It's one thing to object to an indef block, but there's a reason this editor has been blocked three times before, and why they were blocked for 48 hours just prior to this (which related to an incident where they were basically taunting a fellow contributor). I'll look and throw together some diffs, but it's not an exaggeration to say you can click at random on this user's contribution's list and find little but problems. I'd like to see those opposing the block explain what Proofreader77 has contributed to the encyclopedia. This is a serious question and I've asked it several times without having it answered—indeffing this account seems a no-brainer to me since I've seen nothing but low-level (and sometimes high-level) disruption from it. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 01:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Perhaps the next block could be indefinite but this is out of procedure. After the remedy is handed down by the blocking admin the editor must offend another policy. One of the references to legal threats above is a joke. We start using our own policy as legal threats is absurd, what is next blocking for a ANI thread threat? Let's look at the current institution of the indef block as to what offense warranted it. ] (]) 01:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I didn't lengthen the block for legal threats. ] (]) 01:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::To Hell in a Bucket, Misplaced Pages is not for process wonkery or "procedure" for the sake of it, it's an encyclopedia. Do you think Proofreader has done anything to help that endeavor of late? I haven't seen it, and when I asked you for evidence above you provided none other than "they gave us some money." I have seen an extraordinary amount of disruption which wastes the limited amount of time we all have. If it's important to folks that we have a big pow-wow and analyze diffs endlessly before doing absolutely nothing and letting Proofreader pursue their agenda of writing poems, threatening ArbCom cases, and toying with other editors then so be it, but y'alls can handle it next time when Proofreader gets unblocked and starts disrupting the project again as will inevitably occur. Honestly, at times it's necessary to apply a bit of ], and surely common sense suggests this person is an obvious net negative to the project. Not one person has suggested otherwise as yet which is telling. Probably some admin will come along and unblock, but as far as I'm concerned future disruption by Proofreader is on the shoulders of that person and others who have commented here in support of the unblock out of fear or "admin abuse." Indeffing disruptive accounts protects the project, which is what admins are supposed to be doing. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 01:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{outdent|::::::::}} | |||
| As regards contribs, , which I add without comment. ]] 01:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Gwen, what did you lengthen the block for and provide diffs. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 01:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::NeutralHomer have you looked at Proofreader's block log and contributions history? Do you see anything in the latter in the last couple thousand edits that suggests this is a person who is here to help us, rather than make odd comments and have a go at various people? I'm asking in all seriousness, because it seems plain as day to me that this account has done nothing but edit disruptively for quite some time, which is in and of itself a reason to indef block. And I will try to add some diffs here, but seriously go click on some things at random and see for yourself. It's good to understand the context before crying admin abuse. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 01:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::His blocks were for being annoying more or less. This doesn't mean we show him the door. Look at his contribs, 40% in articles? So what he's annoying ignore him, don't make it a personal issue. ] (]) 01:37, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Bigtimepeace, it isn't shouldn't (and isn't) your place (but thank you for doing so) to add those diffs. If Gwen Gale wants this block to be upheld, she needs to be forward with the diffs, give as much information as possible on what she though this block was needed to be indef. So far, she has been vague, withholding and kinda rude when it comes to answers on most questions about this block, which makes me question if the block is even needed in the first place and whether Gwen Gale is acting in good faith (yeah, I am going there). When an admin refuses to provide any information on a block they have made, it is our duty to overturn it until they can do so, willing or not. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 01:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::Disruption isn't allowed because it drives away helpful volunteer editors. ] (]) 01:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Gwen, please stop giving bromidic boilerplate answers and ''explain yourself''. It's great that Bigtimepeace is fighting your fight for you, but maybe you could summon up the energy for more than a sentence? There's clearly concern here. ] | ] 01:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I don't agree with anything in that post, Tan. So far as I can tell, you don't seem to think Pr77 is likely to be disruptive after 48 hours. I think otherwise. ] (]) 01:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::So your answer to everything here is to simply state, over and over, that any pertinent facts are so blindingly obvious that there is absolutely no need to explain yourself, other than making sure you say a variant of the word "disrupt" many, many times? I think I'm going to overturn this indef block. ] | ] 01:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I think you're angry. ] (]) 01:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Good Call. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 01:52, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::::Ok what disruption did you extend the block for? sometimes everyone makes bad decisions but if it is as clear as you claim it to be it should be little matter and effort to show the offense warranting the extention. ] (]) 01:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| You should look at hist past stretching back a couple of months or so (only 99 edits in article space). A vastly different pattern. He needs to go back to article writing. A project and/or user talk ban should help, temporarility at least. ] ] 01:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I see no disruption on this contribs, I seen him being an annoyance at the most, but that can be ignored easily...overturn the block and let's move on. Gwen Gale hasn't given us any motive to keep this block at indef. Overturn back to 2 days or even time served and I highly recommend Gwen Gale be taken before ArbCom for this. This is a definite bad act and not becoming of a respected (and she was to me before this point) admin. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 01:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::::::Some editors think Pr77 has been highly disruptive and others don't think Pr77 has been disruptive. ] (]) 01:52, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::What that sentence right there shows me is you have '''zero reason''' for your extension of this block to indef. I have definitely lost all respect I had for you over this incident and believe you need to turn in your adminship immediately if you can't use it better. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 01:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::::::::I've given my reasons, you disagree as to the level of disruption. ] (]) 01:57, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::No, you have given extremely vague reasons with no evidence to back it up. That is not what a good admin does. Sorry, but you haven't swayed anyone with your vague answers and no evidence. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 02:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| <s>::::::::::::I recommend that this user's conduct should be requested for comment. <swatiska redacted> ] <swatiska redacted> 02:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</s> | |||
| *Well, who are you to recommend anything, Mister Fifteen Edits To Their Name? In fact, the fact that you seem to know your way with wikicode makes you smell somewhat sock-like.]] 02:26, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I can't see the swastikas on my UTF-8 system. ] (]) 02:29, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| <s>::Everyone is entitled to participate in discussion regardless of edit count or how new they are right? <swatiska redacted> ] <swatiska redacted> 02:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</s> | |||
| ====Redaction of Hindu Swastika==== | |||
| With regard to the redaction of what appeared to be the Hindu Swastika symbol in a signature during the above discussion, I am unclear if the editor mistakenly confused the Nazi Swastika (rotated by 45 degrees) with the Hindu symbol. Is there a prior consensus that applies to such redactions of any character or image that may be confused with the Nazi Swastika? ] (]) 06:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| === Arbitration === | |||
| * An involved party should just file an arbitration case, please. It's clear there's not going to be consensus here, and far too much repetitive argumentation. Besides, Proofreader77 indicates on his talk page that this is what he wants. ] ] 02:07, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| **Link, please? - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 02:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| *** ] ] 02:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::'''Filed''' ] ] (]) 03:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposed=== | |||
| '''Based on the refusal of the extending admin to back up block extention by policy, we should revert to the original 2 day block. Proofreader77 should be admonished he is on thin ice and the community would like to see the Arbcom case filed or dropped. Dragging on is unacceptable and it can lead to indefinite blocks in the future if the disruption warrants it.''' ] (]) 01:55, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per above.--] <sup>]</sup> 01:57, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per above as well. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 01:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| *'''Whatever'''. I'll support so long as everyone freaking out about the indef gets a trout slap once the account is again indeffed in the future (after it's wasted a lot of time in the interim) either here or at a long, stupid ArbCom case (and that will happen). This is a triumph of process wonkery over basic common sense as to what kind of contributors we want around here, but we often do a terrible job of applying common sense in these kind of situations. It should also be noted that Gwen's block (and I don't even know Gwen) was supported by 8 people immediately, so the idea that it was wildly out of process and inappropriate is absurd—it apparently did not have consensus, but that does happen from time to time. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 02:07, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Sure''' Works for me. Diffs next time though. ] (]) 06:55, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ===Done=== | |||
| I reinstated the original 48-hour block per the above. While I feel that it would be a delicious irony to simply let it be without explaining myself (perhaps stating the term "inappropriate" a lot, in lieu of anything else), I'll say that admins should not simply extend blocks - especially to indefinite - without having a strong argument to support themselves. As it became painfully clear that Gwen Gale had no argument prepared and isn't likely to prepare one anytime soon, I reinstated Fut. Perf's original block. ] | ] 02:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::You did so without consensus and your rationale, as put forth here, is mistaken. ] (]) 02:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Given your penchant for handing out indefinite blocks after admins have already meted out shorter blocks - with nary an attempt to discuss it with the admin first - I'd say that it's ''you'' that's short on consensus. ] | ] 02:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I see consensus above for a permanent block. Did you miss it? And are the opinions of other editors of no value compared with that of the blocking admin? Does the expressed wish of the community mean nothing to you? ]] 02:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::8-8 is a consensus? Since when? Did I miss it? Are the opinions of the eight dissenting editors of no value compared with the other eight? ] | ] 02:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Consensus isn't about numbers, it's about strength of arguments. Whereas one or two of the supports might reasonable be discounted, so equally can one or two of the opposes. The remaining opposes are largely based on lack of evidence to upgrade the block, whereas the remaining supports are based on longitudinal assessments of this editor's disruptive behaviour- and that, to me, is the distinction. There comes a time when an admin is duty bound to take action to protect the encyclopedia (remember that?) against negative influences. I'm not convinced that a case has been made either that Proofreader77's recent (i.e. going back to December) behaviour has been of net benefit to the encyclopedia, or that previous blocks have been effective in making that point to him. Taking a longer view, I don't necessarily see that situation improving, although that is up to him, and I can confidently predict that we'll be back here before long. ]] 02:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Hell, I'll confidently predict we'll be back here before long. I hope I'm wrong, as I often am, but I'm also confident in my stance in this block. Gwen had every opportunity to explain herself, and instead opted to, well, ''not'' explain herself. An admin had already assessed the situation and plotted a course of action. For another admin to unilaterally (save the irony comments) lengthen the block (from 48 hours to indefinitely, no less), without any discussion, explanation, reasoning, etc. is simply ''wrong''. Look at her attempts to deflect responsibility above; it's astonishing. ] | ] 02:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Comment on '''IRONY''', Gwen you claim Tan has changed the block out of process, yet you fail to explain how your original modification was based on. Can't you see the hypocrisy? ] (]) 02:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' -- I'd just point out Sandstein's comment above, that indefs don't require consensus to impose, but do require consensus to overturn. I'm not seeing said consensus here. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 02:05, 15 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| *:There was no evidence for the block in the first place, so the block was nothing but punishment, which is not allowed. Tan's overturning of the indef block was a good call. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 02:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| *::Regardless, the question of whether the indef was indeed inappropriate should be left up to consensus, not the unilateral decision of you or an admin. I don't see consensus here. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 02:10, 15 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| *:::Well, it has been undone, so it doesn't matter. Hell in a Bucket below makes a very good point (you should read it). This entire thread should be marked as resolved and closed. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 02:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::Also look at the fact thaqt most of the issue is personal dislike and annoyance. The proposed action doesn't protect him if he fucks things up, just gives him enough rope to either get himself out of the corner he is in or hang himself. ] (]) 02:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Overturning was fine given the reaction (even though it's a dumb outcome), but eight other people supported the block almost right away. It's wrong to suggest that this was something horribly bad on Gwen Gale's part, she extended a block of an obviously problematic user, a lot of people agreed, but just as many or more disagreed, so the block was overturned, and now the user can continue to create problems. Like I said it's dumb, but beyond that there's nothing to get worked up about here. Let's hope Proofreader does not waste too much of our time in the week's ahead, but I won't hold my breath. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 02:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Call it principle. I'm willing to listen to a whole lot of "I told you so" if it means that admins are required to explain their indefinite blocks (in the face of concern) with more than Gwen mustered above. ] | ] 02:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::We can only hope he makes the right decision you are correct. But next time the case would be lock stock and barrel if he gives a justifiable offense and then it wil be moot. The ball will be in his court. Maybe the thread will make him see some different perspectives. ] (]) 02:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::To Tan39, there's no doubt that Gwen could and should have explained better, but there was no rush to unblock either (indeed none was requested), and you might have let the conversation continue since there was arguably just as much support for the block as non-support. It's obvious that some of those who were asking for an unblock were just not familiar with the background, or the fact that Proofreader recently e-taunted another editor who expressed anger at a comment and explained he had experienced recent trauma in real life (hopefully you know what I'm talking about since it started the whole incident). Honestly to me that was worthy of an indef block all by itself and I said so at an earlier thread on AN, which is maybe even where Gwen got the idea. It's a difficult question round here when it comes to a choice between doing something "on principle" that might result in a shitty outcome or being not strictly process-bound in the interests of doing the right thing. Given that you brought to the table your own past problems with Gwen's admin behavior (and obvious anger over this affair, which comes out in your sarcastic comment after unblocking), I don't think you were the right person to decide what to do here. I do appreciate you taking ownership of the unblock though, and hopefully you'll be the first one to deal with future problems from Proofreader so the rest of us don't have to. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 02:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *If the block is only 2 days again, can an admin at least please give Proofreader some kind of official notice that once the block expires, he's not to continue with his arbcom threats or "documentations" or else risk being blocked again? I realize he says he'll be filing imminently now, but who knows exactly when he actually will. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 02:28, 15 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| :I do agree with this as indicated above. A little article creation or work would do him good in lieu of a Arbcom case. If he does choose to do so then it is over and he will have his behavior jkust as closely scrutinzed as those he accuszes of impropriety. Sometimes better to let sleeping dogs lie. ] (]) 02:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Admin warning should come from Tanthalas39 who did the unblocking. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 02:37, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Again, can an admin '''please''' issue a formal warning to Proofreader regarding posting his "arbcom documentation" crap? He seems to . <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 03:23, 15 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::::I suggest dropping Tan39 a note and asking him to do it if you think the warning is needed—it's best if it comes from the unblocking admin such that the warning is basically part of the unblock (i.e., "your unblock is in part contingent on you not doing X anymore"). --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 03:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Done, here's hoping. Thanks for the suggestion. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 03:46, 15 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| *Just to say, told you so --]] 11:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Belated comment'''. Sorry, I've been involved in other things, which pushed reading WP:AN & WP:AN/I way down on my list of things to do. However, I regret that the indef block against Proofreader77 was reverted to a 48-hour block: he has been problematic in the past (see, for example ] incident), as well as a nagging suspicion I've had since our last interaction -- over the incident Benjiboi alludes to <s>above</s> below -- that he has been Wikistalking me. Personally, I have been extending to him good faith & otherwise ignoring his actions because I can't determine whether he is simply well-meaning but clearly missing the subtleties of Misplaced Pages norms, or that he is intentionally pushing the limits of our patience much as a troll would. ] & ] both encourage us to have patience with other users, but there comes a time when we have to say enough. Based on Gwen Gale's action, I would say that we have reached it. And even if this rollback of an indef block is maintained, his next block ought to be his last -- & an indefinite one. -- ] (]) 17:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| === Topic ban from Arbcom and editing restrictions against diff gathering for any "''potential''" arbcom cases === | |||
| This seems to be something he loves doing. A user disagrees with him, ''wrongs'' him, and he threatens arbcom. As far as I have seen, these threats are only used to push other users away. He cannot be allowed to continue this. I know that this is not a real legal threat, but it's just about as close as you can get. NLT was create to prevent people from threatening court action to coerce people into doing what they want or backing off. There should be a separate policy, or a modification of NLT to account for threats to go to arbcom used for coercion. This can't be allowed to continue. I, as the writer of this, obviously '''support'''.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 03:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Nahh, let him file one if he desires. If ARBCOM accepts, then he had a reason to file one, whereas if they reject it, it'll make a stronger statement to him than if we ban him from filing one. However, I would support banning him from threatening other users with going to arbcom (the exception being notifying them if he actually files a case), as that's just ridiculous tactics aimed at getting other editors to "cease and desist" what he doesn't like. ] <sup>(]•]•])</sup> 04:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Per your response above, I have downsized and made things more clear. He's basically only allowed to prepare for the case without alerting any of the involved users(as he normally does by posting it all over his talk page), and he is only allowed to alert any of the involved parties if it has been filed.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 06:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| === New proposal === | |||
| *] is restricted from threatening or alerting other users of "''pending''" or "''potential''" arbcom cases unless alerting them of a case already filed, nor can ] ask anyone(on or off wiki) to do this for him. | |||
| *Diff gathering by ], or any user they ask to help them(on or off wiki), '''''must''''' take place on a '''sub-page''' in ]'s user space or user talk space. It may not take place on his user page or user talk page. | |||
| **Under no circumstances shall other users be made aware of this page by ], or anyone that ] has asked(on or off wiki). | |||
| ***This page shall not be linked by ], or anyone they have asked(on or off wiki), from his talk page, or his userpage. He can easily save a bookmark and watch the page if he wants to keep tabs on it. | |||
| **Should the arbcom case in regards to this page not be filed within a timely manner, then the page may be subject to deletion. | |||
| *Should any of these restrictions be violated, then ] is blocked for (insert good amount of time here). | |||
| Per Ks, I have revised the restrictions and tried to outline everything. I believe that sums things up. As the writer of this, I obviously '''support'''.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 06:50, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Of course Proofreader77 is able to prepare a case for arbcom, and is able to gather evidence for a likely case in a subpage. However, the irritatingly high noise-to-signal ratio is a problem: please stop talking about proposed arbcom cases, and please stop repeating points that have irritated other editors. It is disruptive, and leads to total time wasting like this discussion (which will not be totally wasted if we can achieve a consensus to reign in Proofreader77's talk page drama). <s>07:29, 15 February 2010 (UTC)</s> <small>signed correctly this time, sorry</small> ] (]) 08:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Could you fix your sig? I don't want to do it for you, as I think you might want to. c.c — ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 07:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment'''. The first proposal about not threatening ArbCom cases makes sense I suppose, but I don't understand the second bit about keeping diffs gathered on a separate page. Whether Proofreader links to it or not, any other editor who checks his or her contributions (which will happen) will immediately "be made aware of" it—you can't really "hide" a page you are editing. As such I'm confused as to why doing this "diff gathering" would be less troublesome at User Talk:Proofreader77/Diffs than at their normal talk page. Even the first proposal about not threatening ArbCom cases seems unnecessary to me, though I have no problem with it. This indefinite block had significant (if not sufficient) support, and I think the next time there are any shenanigans there will be resounding support for such a measure. I'm not sure we need to impose any formal restrictions in the interim, and surely Proofreader77 knows they are on thin ice. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 09:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::In regards to the bit about it being on a sub-page, this is because when 77 posts these kind of things on their talk, they are either insulting, irritating, or threatening by their very existence, such as when 77 posted that I took 5 edits to undo a ''resolved'' tag. Stating such a thing is rather insulting, as I was just having a bit of trouble with the template. There is also no good reason to ''record perceived flaws'' as openly as 77 has done in the past. Especially when they have continually threatened arbcom, but never really gone through with it. | |||
| ::'''In case the above is tl;dr:''' They use their talk page as a means of an indirect threat against those that are there, or some over project page like ANI, to leave, or they would become a party in his next case. There is no need for that kind of thing here.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 11:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::I agree with you, my point is just that shunting those "indirect threat" sort of comments off to a subpage does not really do anything about the problem. They will be somewhat less visible, but will still be there, and people will obviously know about them. Indeed the page would almost certainly come under discussion as an attack page possibly warranting deletion, so it might actually create more problems. I understand the spirit of what you are proposing, I just don't think it would have much of an effect. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 17:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Having the page deleted as an attack page is actually a better course of action than what we have currently: 77 makes threats about potential cases on his talk pages, and as they are "''pending''", and ''on his talk pages'', they can't be deleted when he fails to file any such case. If they were restricted like I write, those pages could be deleted when he fails to file any such case for a due amount of time.. and as such, going to clarify that above.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 20:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''', I'm unsurprised to see this editor here as the last time I was trying to deal with them ] (November 2009) they were specifically told unambiguously they were on thin ice and needed to work with other editors and stop overwhelming opposition. That same thread includes a link to another thread of mass distraction whereby ], a disambiguation page, had to be rolled back by reasonable and productive editors with an immense amount of energy as evidenced at ] (April 2009) . Unfortunately I see little to show that they have changed. Myself and several editors have tried to deal with them regarding ] but simply walked away instead. I think the relative concept is ], perhaps a line needs to be added their that even if you can spin a sentence in twelve ways and utterly frustrate all others on a talkpage does not mean you are correct or that anyone agrees with you; and ]. Gwen Gale, IMHO, has been patiently dealing with this and (in November 2009) should likely be strengthened as part of this. I also feel Gwen Gale's suggestion of a mentor is a solid one that likely should be enforced for Proofreader 77 to remain. ] 15:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| **I agree with this assessment. This user may not be here to help build an encyclopedia. ++]: ]/] 23:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| **As do I. This editor appears to be on thin ice repeatedly. Maybe a formal ban proposal...? <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 04:04, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ** Agree with BB for reasons (especially about Gwen's patience) I've stated elsewhere in this thread. The problem originally may have been one of ], but Proofreader77 has now moved on to being a distraction in other ways -- which does not indicate he wants to contribute in a positive manner. However, a mentor will only work for Proofreader -- as for anyone --only if she/he wants to be a productive contributor here; I'm not convinced that is the case. -- ] (]) 18:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| There's a considerable amount of irony going on here. Proofreader77 spammed me out about a month ago when I raised the issue of law keeping on wikipedia. I considered his behaviour to be somewhat irritating. He was resisting the proposals that I was making. Yet those proposals were designed to protect editors from the very kind of excesses that Proofreader77 has now found himself at the brunt of. Proofreader77 nevertheless has a sense of humour and I have no desire to see anybody blocked indefinitely. I'll repeat my view that all serious editors will eventually mend their ways if they are subjected to enough 3 month blocks. It's quite simple. If genuine disruption occurs, then block them. Begin with short blocks and build up to 3 months. Three months is a long time. If they continue the offending behaviour when they come back after 3 months, then block them for 3 months again. They will soon tire of it. Could it be any more simple than that? There is no need for all these complex restrictions and probations, and topic bans. There is too much time wasted on it. And why are we witnessing so many cases of short blocks being suddenly bumped up to indefinite? It's a bit like watching traffic fines being bumped up to the noose because the accused looked at the magistrate the wrong way. I'm just glad however that Proofreader77 won't be able to spam me out on this occasion, at least until tomorrow anyway. ] (]) 07:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :You've never had to deal with a real problem editor, have you? Repeated 3 month blocks just means we'll be blocking certain people every three months ''ad infinitum''. An indef block is actually ''less'' of a penalty, as they can come back whenever they can demonstrate they're no longer going to be disruptive. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 14:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| You seem to be making out here that pushing the block button is a major effort. Yes, I've had problems with Proofreader77, but I believe that remedial measures need to be kept proportionate. There is something seriously wrong when somebody gets blocked for 48 hours, and as soon as he squeaks, somebody else piles in and bumps it up to indefinite. Why? Why this excessive action? If they thought that 48 hours wasn't long enough, then why not 72 hours or a week, or even three months? Why go storming straight in for indefinite? It strikes me as being a case of kicking somebody when they are down. Look at me everybody, nobody can kick harder than I can. I've no objection to having a wikipedia jester as such. It adds a bit of humour to the project, yet at the same time such a jester needs to be strictly regulated. And I don't agree with your assessment that you'll necessarily be repeating the blocks every 3 months. Even an encyclopaedia jester will soon tire of having his jokes interrupted for 3 month periods at a time, and they will quickly learn how to be humorous in a less annoying way. And a block of any length can be appealed, so I don't follow your logic that an indefinite block is less of a penalty than a three month block. ] (]) 16:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Respectfully I disagree. In many cases an increasingly lengthy approach is sensible. I think this editor may need some exceptional intervention but do note . Having been frustrated by their winding up the talkpage on a BLP for months to frustrate any change, no matter how insignificant is just my experience. It was a colossal waste of energy driving away the very editors we want to be using a talkpage to make significant improvements, their involvement wholly frustrated and in some cases rolled back improvements. Court jesters, fine we can use a few. Humour? Great, no problems there. But disruption remains disruptive and whatever their goals here they seem rather incapable of adhering to community and collegial approaches to editing. We really don't want to encourage intellectualized ]. Just because other editors give up in frustration doesn't mean the oppressive side's view is correct. This has been played out many times going back almost a year if not longer. If this is a social experiment of theirs put a fork in it and call it a day. Having said all that it seems their block was reinstated to just the original 48 hours. If they don't show a remarkable about face to working with other editors then editing restriction and topic bans are in order. ] remains a BLP mess but I won't bother until Proofreader77 is off that article altogether. Generally blocks should increase incrementally, but as in this case several blocks that likely ''should'' have occurred didn't. I've seen this before where the right people didn't bring an editor's behaviours to wider attention in the right way. And ... the situation grinds until it hits a breaking point and then looks like it's an over-reaction. The initial case could have/should have been presented in context of months and volume of disruption - "what is the best way forward". It wasn't so here we are to pick up the pieces and mop the mess. Maybe Proofreader77 can explain where they're coming from and how they will bring their eccentricities in line with community standards without the spin, poetry, etc. ] 17:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I was only pointing out the need for proportionate action. As regards the case of Proofreader77, my opinion is that you weren't hard enough on him when you needed to be, and then suddenly you went over the top. Recently an editor came to my talk page regarding problems with Proofreader77. He had raised the issue on a noticeboard, and if I recall correctly, the admins turned the tables right around on him, ultimately leading to a block, and Proofreader77 got off scot-free, no doubt with a smile on his face. Turning the tables on the person complaining seems to be a cowardly tactic which is rife on wikipedia. Hence you gave Proofreader77 a licence to continue with his behaviour. And suddenly then you clobbered him hard, and a trail of discord has been left along the way. | |||
| What you should have done was listened carefully to the complaints that were being made against Proofreader77 back in January and taken heed. A block for a week or two would have eased the pressure at the ] article, while at the same time allowing Proofreader77 a chance to think it all over, knowing that he would be returning again. Had the cycle repeated often enough, I can assure you that he would have tired of it unless his sole objective was to become the first wikipedia editor to get a block record which carries on to a second page. | |||
| But to let him off scot-free and encourage him, and then to block him for 48 hours when he's not expecting it, and to suddenly bump it up to indefinite because of some talk page edits serves no purpose other than to wind him up. Why should his talk page edits have been a problem to anybody? I don't habitually look at Proofreader77's talk page and if nobody else did either then they wouldn't see anything that they didn't like. | |||
| Apply blocks proportionately and fairly when they are required, and there will be alot less discord on wikipedia. ] (]) 18:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I hear you and generally agree however in practice a lot of problems are ignored until they boil over. In Proofreader77's case(s), IMHO, it's never a simple read and it's always ]. ] 18:19, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: Exactly. When a user dances on the boundary between what is permitted & what is not, it can be hard to see whether that is due to simple naivette or careful malice. And Admins who take a firm stand in one instance should always step back & let another Admin, who has fresh eyes & no vested interest handle the next. In this case, however, I'm finding it hard to continue to extend good faith to Proofreader77. -- ] (]) 18:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Yes, but you must never bang the door totally in someone's face, and that is what an indefinite block does. That's how you wind people up. If he really is being big trouble, and has been so for a long time, then block him for 3 months. If he starts again as soon as the 3 months is up, then block him for another 3 months. I assure you that he will get the message, and although he may be angry at the lengthy blocks, he will not have had the ultimate insult of having had the door shut completely in his face, and he will know that he will ultimately be allowed another chance when the period expires. Even Jimbo Wales himself has expressed the opinion that any punitive action should not exceed one year. I personally think that 3 months at a time is adequate, but there are still many admins and arbitrators who are dishing out indefinite sanctions. This needs to be stopped. Ironically, it was on this very issue that Proofreader77 spammed me out when I raised it on Jimbo's talk page in December. All Jimbo needs to do is set the software that blocks can't exceed a certain maximum length of time. That will remove alot of discord and alot of indulgence. A week long block in January would have sufficed, but instead they preferred to wind up Tombaker321, no doubt leaving him totally sour about the project. ] (]) 19:17, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Can you please indent your replies so we know who you're talking to?— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 21:02, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :You "assure" us he'll get the message, huh? Forgive me for not being so naive. Indef is not this "ultimate insult" you claim it to be, and your indefinite rolling blocks are useless. Personally, I think we shouldn't have blocks that automatically release after 48 hours. If we're blocking someone for more than two days, something is wrong. An indef says, "we'll let you edit once you demonstrate an understanding of what a collaborative editing environment is." That's it. If you find that insulting, I'm not sure what to tell you. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 13:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ===Tweaked sanction proposal=== | |||
| :After tweaking Deadalus' proposal: | |||
| # Any user who appears to be acting in such a manner as to circumvent the effect and/or spirit of the following restrictions may be sanctioned appropriately at the acting admin's discretion. | |||
| # ] is prohibited from | |||
| ##asking anyone (on or off wiki) to act in a manner that would circumvent the effect and spirit of the following restrictions; | |||
| ##threatening or alerting any user of "''pending''" or "''potential''" arbcom cases, except where notifying an user of a case that has already been filed. | |||
| ##using his user page and user talk page for the purpose of diff gathering. Diff gathering, if any, may only take place on a subpage in ]'s user space. | |||
| ##linking such subpages anywhere on-wiki, or making any user aware of the existence of such subpages, on or off wiki. | |||
| #Should the arbcom case in regards to such subpages not be filed within a timely manner, then the page may be subject to deletion. | |||
| #Should any of these restrictions be violated, then ] may be blocked by an uninvolved administrator, for up to one month in the event of repeated violations. After 3 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one year. | |||
| # Administrators are not permitted to reverse or modify actions taken under this set of restrictions without explicit authorisation to do so by the acting administrator, or a clear community consensus to do so. Taking action under this set of restrictions shall not constitute involvement for the purpose of future such actions. | |||
| I think that sums it up. ] (]) 01:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Number 4 is too bureaucratic (it could be completely eliminated), and number 5 is trying to take an opinion on the Gwen Gale/Tan issue and make a rule about it. ] | ] 03:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I certainly didn't have any "Gwen Gale/Tan" issue in mind when tweaking this; nor have I ever wanted to add unnecessary bureaucracy where it's unrequired. This is simply a standard way many editing restrictions listed at ] have been enacted, be it by ArbCom or the community. It's just a clear definition of what each thing means for the purposes of ''this restriction'' so admins are firmly acting within certain limits, yet are also given a broad level of discretion - leaving the definitions open to general site norms would simply mean more of the time and space taken to debate what means what as there is no set definition; I think one of the more useful points of having a restriction is to reduce the unnecessary time and space that would otherwise be taken. ] (]) 05:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' I don't think I really need to explain myself here. I have already done so several times above.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 21:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| === Motion to end this === | |||
| Given the latest developments , he was indef blocked by ]. ] ] 07:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I think this may be wise as long as action over there actually happens which we cannot force. Is there a means to track this to ensure it is sussed out there and if not addressed here? ] 07:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: He was blocked by an admin, not by ArbCom. ] ] 07:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes but the issue is there right now and Proofreader77, IMHO, shouldn't have to defend themselves on two fronts when we have an elected body of generally dispassionate editors at Arbcom looking into the issues. My only concern is that ''if'' they don't take action it is revisited here to address the concerns raised. 07:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The community is sorting this out here so there is no good reason to close this off, particularly when ArbCom have pretty much declined the case. The above sanction proposal is for enacting, should Proofreader77 be unblocked again. ] (]) 08:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Fair enough, I think then that the above needs to be severely tweaked to take on board prior concerns not just the no legal threats parts. ] 08:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I'd be more than happy to continue tweaking with the community, though I'd need a concise list of the specific concerns that have not been addressed. ] (]) 09:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I think the editing restrictions from last year remain relevant and some additional points may be useful here in one form or another. Not sure how all can work or - likely - simplyfying so everyone can easily digest these: | |||
| '''A'''. You are to follow the spirit of not ], specifically admonishing the absence or encouraging formal proceedures, using legal language needlessly and conducting editing as if Misplaced Pages were a courtroom. <br/> | |||
| '''B'''. In the spirit of ] - "The prime values of the talk page are communication, courtesy and consideration." - talkpage posts are to remain clear, unambiguous and easily understood by all editors. Talkpage contributions should be no longer than 1000 bytes (or 100 words, whichever is easier to gauge/enforce) and no more than 5 contributions per day to any one talk page except your own userspace. Any editor may use {{tl|collapse}} or alikened templates to redact the breaches.<br/> | |||
| '''C'''. You are not allowed to use non-community standardized formatting anywhere but in your own userspace. ] was an example of this which made normal editing nearly impossible. Poetry, specifically meta-discussions on other users seems antagonistic and unhelpful. Do this off-Misplaced Pages if it must be done at all.<br/> | |||
| '''D'''. If you seek and successfully obtain mentorship for help with evidenced idiosyncratic style and make meaningful progress improving your communication skills, these restrictions may be lifted by a consensus of editors. | |||
| :::::::I think that covers the areas I've seen. I'd like to ensure that the end product is easy understood by us now as well as the next folks who come new to the situation. ] 10:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::This indefr block is as good as the last fucked up one. Who the fuck cares if Proof wirtes in Poetry. What policy did he violate by posting a idosyncratic post at arbcom. SHOULD HE HAVE GROVELED MORE? That's sure what it looks like from this end, indef blocked because he actually followed through and posted on the Board. Make up you fucking minds, first you say he shouild and when he does you indef him again. I wish to hell people, '''meaning blocking admin''' start laying off the block button for frivolous reasons. ] (]) 17:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Writing in poetry is, essentially, giving the middle finger to the community. ] (]) 19:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::So is borderline stupidity but it is tolerated in Mass Force here. This is a personal dislike not a detriment to wiki. 19:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC) <small>'''comment posted by ]'''</small> | |||
| :::::::::::It depends on whether the "stupidity" is willful or not -- and even if it isn't, I'm in favor of considering serial incompetence to be disruptive. As for the current case: writing in poetry cannot be considered as anything but a willful act, a deliberate slap in the face. ] (]) 19:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Writing in poetry is one thing, however, writing in poetry to specifically insult other editors isn't allowed.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 21:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I'd like to answer HiaB's question, even if it means beating a dead horse. Nobody cares if another Wikipedian writes poetry as part of how she/he communicates with other editors -- in itself. (If you can write readable, or even entertaining, poetry, I welcome you to do so.) But with Proofreader77, the problem has been that she/he fails to respond other people in an understandable way, & her/his sonnets only compound the problem. It's the equivalent of an instance where you ask me why I made such-&-such an edit, & I start talking about the time I met Ward Cunningham. All very nice, you reply, but what about that edit I made, & I continue to talk about Ward, & you rant at me for being unresponsive -- at which point I post a sonnet. What you have is an example of dealing with PR77: she/he appears to have a valid point, but fails -- almost stubbornly -- to engage other users in a productive -- or even useful -- manner. At this point, I feel the best that can be said about this person is that PR77 suffers from Asperger's Syndrome; at worst, we have a troublemaker. If you disagree with my opinion, feel free to offer to mentor Proofreader77; but I think your time & energy would be better spent on anything else. -- ] (]) 20:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Everything else aside, I find it hard to believe anyone could honestly argue Proofreader to be an asset to the aim of building an encyclopedia. There's no other way to see it – the vast majority of his energy here is spent engaging in abstruse rhetorical experiments on talk pages that, oddly, prevent any actual communication from taking place. He's obviously heard that this is a problem, but won't (or can't) address it.--] ]/] 21:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| All that aside, I would rather keep this open in the event that he is unblocked, in regards to the proposed restrictions above.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 21:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I support the block (as I did previously) and strongly enjoin other admins to ''not'' unblock unilaterally. The problem some people had with Gwen Gale's previous unblock (though an equal number supported it) was that it did not provide a significant rationale, and was essentially overturning the action of another administrator who had only blocked for 48 hours. Now that original blocking admin ], has blocked indefinitely and a clear rationale. This action is fully within an administrator's purview and should not be reversed lightly. Of course if there is a strong consensus against it, or if the Arbs want to reverse it and have a case (which seems unlikely) that would be different, but this is not the kind of block where another admin can waltz by and say "I don't like that, unblocking." If there are not significant objections in the near future this thread should indeed be closed. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 21:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Newman Luke == | |||
| See ] that {{User|Newman Luke}} is a problemetic editor on Judaism related articles. He is busy again with a sprey of major rewrites to Judaism related articles. When reverted he repeats his edits, in stated disregard for the repeated complaints, and without engaging in discussion. I propose a 24-hour block to force this editor into discussion. I have notified him on his user talk page. ] (]) 11:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : Debresser is attempting to Game 3RR (he's just made 3 reverts), and his "discussion" amounts to nothing more than ]. ] (]) 12:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: I made three different edits, which is not four identical edits as in the 3RR rule. But that is not the issue. And what about you, repeating your edits? Aren't you familiar with ]? ] (]) 12:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| <small>Note: I posted a notification about this post on WikiProject Judaism.</small> {{unsigned|Debresser}} | |||
| ::: Luke, have a read ] (]<span style="border:1px solid black;">''' ] '''</span>]) 12:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :There is nothing wrong with Luke's edits. He has improved the article immensely. If there are certain statements that annoy Debresser, he should address them on the talk page.--] (]) 12:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: There is almost nothing good among his edits. And if there were major good pieces, I left them. This is precisely the reason that he was posted initially on WikiProject_Judaism. His points of view are so far removed from Judaism, that his edits disrupt the articles. ] (]) 12:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: And please, this is not a matter of my personal "annoyment". Try and keep your language NPOV. ] (]) 12:26, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::If you're so interested in NPOV, define "far removed from Judaism" in an NPOV way. Explain what you mean - specific issues. ] (]) 12:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I could, but I think that the WikiProject Judaism discussion is the correct place for that. Here I posted only to ask for enforcement to force you to stop making disruptive edits and bring you to the discussion table. ] (]) 13:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If you're not going to explain yourself here, or your claims of "disruptive edits", then you should retract this section. You are the disruptive one, as Gilabrand notes. Misplaced Pages is about building and improving a series of Encyclopedia articles, not about ]. ] (]) 13:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: Cut the ], and start discussing your major and contestable rewrites ''before'' you make them. ] is where that usually takes place. ] (]) 13:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: If you want Wikilawyering to be cut out, I suggest you retract this section entirely. As for discussion, if you actually care to point out '''specific''' details you think are somehow factually wrong, or inappropriate, then I may well discuss them. As for where discussion should take place, have you never heard of article Talk pages? ] (]) 13:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: You are posted on WikiProject Judaism already (as you are well aware). Because the problem with you is your edit ''pattern'', and not any ''specific'' edit, that is the best place to discuss them. If anyone should have used the article talk pages it is you, preferably before making complete revisions, but at least after you were reverted. ] (]) 13:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::It is you who claims that. Where have you mentioned a single set of '''specific''' edits that you regard as '''specific''' contradictions of fact, or otherwise inappropriateness? Mention one - or don't you have any evidence to back up this claim? Either back it up with '''specific''' points you think are factually erroneous, etc., or ]. ] (]) 14:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I am writing to formally lodge a complaint against ] for repeated violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on personal attacks (]) and casting aspersions (]) during a . | |||
| I encountered this user a little while ago whe he had created a set of articles related to marriage in Judaism. On even casual reading, the content is heavily biased towards a source that is almost 100 years old and was regarded in its day to be biased and informed by radical scholarship. Otherwise he cherry-picks primary sources, many of which have later not been codified as Jewish law. Around these sources he spins theories that amount to original research, only rarely supporting them with appropriate secondary sources. | |||
| Throughout the interaction, GiantSnowman has engaged in behavior that appears to contravene Misplaced Pages's behavioral guidelines, including but not limited to: | |||
| The user was challenged several times over this pattern of editing. He clearly has lots of time on his hands, and I have no energy to challenge every single huge rewrite of a Judaism-related article. The bottom line is that he engages in original research, which compromises the encyclopedicity of every article he touches. ] | ] 12:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| '''Casting aspersions without evidence:''' | |||
| He still continues , in complete disregard of this discussion and the things pointed out to him, marking his major rewrite a "minor edit" with the edit summary "fix cites". I couldn't have made the point that this editor is being disruptive in a more eloquent way. I again request that this user be blocked for 24 hours, to impress upon him the necessity to change his pattern of editing and engage in discussion. ] (]) 13:49, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * GiantSnowman repeatedly accused me of engaging in disruptive behavior, suggesting ulterior motives without providing any verifiable evidence. | |||
| * For instance, accusations of using ] to generate responses without concrete proof. | |||
| * Statements like “You are a liar and cannot be trusted” and other similar assertions lack civility and violate the principle of ]. | |||
| '''Aggressive tone and unwarranted accusations:''' | |||
| :It was a minor edit, some of the cites were slightly wrong, others were duplicates, or not as well formatted as they could be. You have already been cautioned for failing to use proper dispute resolution routes - like the article talk page, and instead escalating conflicts into incivility. See ]. I'm sure the rest of wikipedia would appreciate it if you started complying with that ruling. Now there's some sort of comment about whether you should be blocked there, but I'm not familiar enough to know how Arbitration rulings should be applied, so I'll leave it up to others to discuss that aspect of your behaviour.] (]) 14:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: Please do not poison the well. ] (]) 14:07, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::It concluded 2 days ago, and asks you to use proper dispute resolution procedures, but you aren't. I therefore think its extremely relevant here. ] (]) 14:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::: 1. And what do you call ] and ]? 2. This is not a Chabad related article. But all of this it moot. ] (]) 14:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You do understand that the Arbitration Committee weren't saying "use proper dispute resolution processes, including article talk pages, on Chabad articles, but do what you like on the rest of wikipedia". Why do you have such aversion to (a) using article talk pages, and (b) pointing out '''specific''' diffs / content that you regard as factually inaccurate or inappropriate for the article? ] (]) 17:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * The user's tone throughout the discussion has been hostile, escalating to direct personal attacks: | |||
| :: Since you completely rewrote the lede, other paragraphs, and the section structure , it was a very major edit indeed. See ] about what is a minor edit on Misplaced Pages. So now you are lying as well. ] (]) 14:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * Referring to me as a “liar” multiple times. | |||
| :::Actually, I didn't change the lede or structure - . I just changed the format of a few cites, and combined identical ones. ] (]) 14:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * Suggesting that I have been “deliberately disruptive” without presenting any factual basis. | |||
| :::: I'll leave it up to admins to be the judge of that. I have on occasion misunderstood diffs. ] (]) 14:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| '''Violation of ] and ]:''' | |||
| My experiences with Newman Luke mirror those of JFW and Debresser. Newman Luke is relatively ignorant about normative Judaic religious legal practice, yet insists on creating, or unilaterally massively changing without any discussion, articles which are often filled with information from questionable sources, lacking in accepted normative sources, have subtle, or overt, points-of-view woven into the article based on cherry-picked quotations, and, almost always, are redundant to better sources, more neutrally written, more accurate existing articles. The experts at ] almost invariably are unanimous that his additions are misleading or plain wrong (for example, please see ] and Luke's response ]). At this point, I believe that an RfC with the intent that Newman should not create or make any significant changes to Judaic articles without discussion may be appropriate. -- ] (]) 18:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * Misplaced Pages encourages editors to respond constructively to newcomers' efforts. However, GiantSnowman’s behavior has been dismissive and accusatory, discouraging participation and creating a hostile editing environment. | |||
| ::Avraham, where is there a '''specific''' addition that's criticised? Point to SPECIFIC content you regard as factually wrong, or where others have stated the same. Because so far, you and Debresser (and Izak) singularly fail to give ANY '''specific''' examples. ] isn't a valid policy. ] (]) 23:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::: WP:ANI wasn't created to resolve content dispute. It is here to resolve behavioral problems of editors. Such as you. Go ask this question on WikiProject Judaism, or open up a talk page discussion as per ]. ] (]) 23:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Its you who has the problem, so you use the talk page - explain what '''specific''' content you have an issue with and '''specifically''' why. ] (]) 10:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| As an administrator, GiantSnowman is expected to set an example by adhering to Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies and fostering a collaborative environment. However, their actions in this instance fall far short of the standards expected of administrators, which further exacerbates the seriousness of this issue. | |||
| : Notification: ] has reported me on ]. ] (]) 20:27, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I reported you at 13:something (UTC), half a day ago. ] (]) 23:07, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Is it my fault you didn't notify me? ] (]) 23:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Its your fault you reverted for a '''fifth''' time, after that - -, and that you ] described the revert - which deleted 2/3 of the article - as removing vandalism. ] (]) 10:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I understand that discussions can sometimes be contentious, but I believe there is no justification for violating ] or ]. I respectfully request that administrators review the linked discussion and take appropriate action to address this behavior. | |||
| I'd also like to point out that Debresser has explicitly claimed he has the right to ignore ] - - the policy that forbids ownership of articles. One of the examples listed there of fobidden behaviour is: | |||
| :"Revert. You're editing too much. Can you slow down?" or "Get consensus before you make such huge changes." | |||
| If any additional information or clarification is needed, I am happy to provide it. My intent is to ensure a respectful and collaborative editing environment for all Misplaced Pages contributors. | |||
| Now that sounds exactly what Debresser is doing here. ] (]) 23:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Thank you for your time and consideration. </s> | |||
| : I am not owning anything. You have a pattern of editing against consensus. I am just the one who refuses to be intimidated by your refusal to listen to advice and to seek consensus, and decided to revert you. Then I took you to WikiProject Judaism, and you continued, so I took you here, and you still continue, so now I think you should be blocked temporarily. ] (]) 23:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ] • ] ⚽ 12:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : Just a question for ]: did you notice that '''all''' outside editors here and on ] agree with my reverts and tell you to start seeking consensus? (Of course somebody will now come along and say that he disagrees with me.) Doesn't that tell you something? ] (]) 23:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Consensus FOR WHAT? What '''specific''' content do you think is against consensus? Where has there been a discussion of '''specific''' content? And no, the editors there did NOT agree with your reverts. They concluded that '''you''' should present the '''specific''' content you thought was factually in error/inappropriate/etc., and that the article talk page should be used. Points I've emphasised above. Now point out to me the '''specific''' content you think is a problem? ] (]) 10:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::This is ridiculous. NL rewrote the entire article to his taste. I posted on the talk page, and I have not received a single answer as of yet. (And believe me, I have more to say.) Is it or is it not Misplaced Pages policy to discuss before re-reverting? Debresser did nothing wrong; he was just trying to uphold collaboration.] (]) 19:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No, that is ridiculous. You fail to mention that its also wikipedia policy for people ]. And you've had your answer on the talk page, if you'd wanted one in a hurry, why didn't you mention it on my talk page?. I've repeatedly asked Debresser to point out specific issues and he hasn't. By contrast, this is the first time you've mentioned even somewhat directly to me that you've raised a question, and I've given you an answer before even writing this. A little even-handedness would be appreciated please. ] (]) 01:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Newman, there is a difference between ownership and protection; in this case, it is abundantly clear that many, if not most, people believe that your edits, over a sequence of months and many pages, are more harmful than helpful and diminish the quality of the articles relating to Judaism in the wikipedia project. Our efforts to maintain a high-quality, accurate, representative, properly sourced, and consensus-approved version is exactly what should be happening. If anyone is having "]" issues here, it is '''you''', who, for some reason, believe that your edits and point-of-view outweighs the numerous editors and existing consensus view otherwise. -- ] (]) 02:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Avraham, protecting the version you like IS claiming ownership. It is not clear at all. No-one there yet has pointed to a single specific edit they take issue with for specific reasons, not one. All it is is general claims - massively lacking in actual hard evidence from diffs. You're just poisoning the well there. Have you read WP:OWN? I suggest you read it again, particularly this bit: | |||
| {{cquote|''Examples of ownership behavior... "Get consensus before you make such huge changes"''}} | |||
| :Something can only be against consensus if people have already massively disputed it. Now can you point to where the '''specific''' content/edits that I have made, or similar, were discussed before I made them and declared to be against the consensus view, because I can't see any such thing. ] (]) 13:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :The discussion I raised was at ], now closed. I raised concerns about this editor, who has (in brief) - undertake botched and inappropriate RM closures; re-factored other editor's talk page posts; randomly nominated another user with whom they have never interacted before for RFA; and messing with my user space draft. None of that was the conduct of a new editor here to learn the ropes, and I wanted a second pair of eyes. | |||
| :And this bit of WP:OWN as well: | |||
| :In the course of that discussion, it became highly suspect to multiple users that this user has been editing with LLM. They denied using Chat GPT and, when questioned further, refused to answer. That is why I said this user is a liar and cannot be trusted, and I stand by that assertion. ]] 12:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{cquote|''The involvement of multiple editors, each defending the ownership of the other, can be highly complex. The simplest scenario usually comprises a dominant primary editor who is defended by other editors, reinforcing the former's ownership. This is often informally described as a ], and can be frustrating to both new and seasoned editors. '''As before, address the topic and not the actions of the editors. '''''}} | |||
| ::Pinging other editors who were involved in that ANI discussion or have posted concerns/advice on this user's talk page - {{ping|Liz|voorts|Folly Mox|Tiggerjay|Extraordinary Writ|Tarlby|The Bushranger|Thebiguglyalien|Cyberdog958}} - think that is everyone, apologies if not. ]] 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Now when are you going to address the topic - point to '''specific''' content that you have issue with and '''specifically''' why. I have repeatedly asked you to do so - multiple times even here, so when are you going to? ] (]) 13:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you for your speedy response. Now let other admins add their point of view. ] • ] ⚽ 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Given the closed section above - which was closed for a very good reason - I'd suggest that coming back to this page to complain and using an LLM to do it is a ''spectacularly'' bad idea. The community only has limited patience when dealing with editors who are causing timesinks for other edits, and I suspect that the section above was your limit. ] 12:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. ] • ] ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::] is worth reviewing. It may already be too late for you to withdraw your complaint, but it's probably worth an attempt. --] (]) 12:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ec}}Please, any passing uninvolved admin, block the OP now. Not least for using an LLM to generate a complaint that someone accused them of using ] to generate responses. Enough of our time has been wasted. ] (]) 12:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Again, this is mere conjecture. ] • ] ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Continuing to deny the obvious - especially when Tarlby ran your posts through multiple LLM checkers - is really not helping your case. For me, it shows you are not here in good faith and that you absolutely cannot be trusted. ]] 12:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, it's called people have eyes. Using LLMs this way is highly disrespectful and frankly disruptive. Boomerang block for ] seems appropriate. ] (]) 12:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::<small>(Responding to the ping, invovled)</small> My perspective regarding LLM has been it really doesn't matter (to me) if you're using various technology tools constructively, such as a spell checker or grammar checker might have been viewed two decades ago. ''However, what really matter is how those tools are used and being responsible for how they're used''. This editor has been evasive in their conversations and generally disruptive demonstrating ] behavior by very peculiar / suspicious ] I've only seen in clear LLM cases. Yet, there is no point in bludgeoning to what degree, if any, an LLM is playing here, but because this is a clear example of ] and failure to follow ] despite many attempts to bring them to this users attention. ] ] 17:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::+1 to Phil Bridger. What struck me in the prior thread, over and over again, was how repeatedly evasive he was. "I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT..." "I never made any comment about LLMs in general." "I have no explanation." "Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully." "Which AI detectors are you using?" "The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively." And so on, and so on, and so on. Footballnerd2007 has been given chance after chance to answer plainly, without Wikilawyering or weasel-wording, and has instead stuck to the tactic of deflect, deflect, deflect. I don't know where Footballnerd2007 got the notion that the Fifth Amendment was the law of the land on Misplaced Pages, and that no boomerang can touch him as long as he admits to nothing. Let's just disabuse him of the notion. ] 12:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Retaliatory BS; this should be closed immediately. ] ] 12:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === CBAN proposal === | |||
| Appears to be forum shopping ] ] (]) 02:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * I propose a ''']''' for Footballnerd2007, appealable no sooner than six months from now (and then once per year thereafter), alongside a ban on using LLM's which would remain in effect until specifically contested. At the time of writing, Footballnerd2007 has only 142 edits, a ''significant'' number of which are right here at WP:ANI. They are clearly a massive ] time sink. I urged Footballnerd2007 to withdraw this complaint and warned about ] and that clearly didn't land. I think it's time for everyone else to get back to regular editing. --] (]) 12:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*'''Support''', obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. ]] 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. ] • ] ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? ] 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. ]] 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::I'll respond to this in depth later today. ] • ] ⚽ 13:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::I concede that I've been backed into a corner and now I need to do the right thing, stop with the defensive act and own up to my mistakes which I'll do in my statement later this afternoon. ] • ] ⚽ 13:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. ] (]) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::I had my legal head on with the philosophy "defend until you can no more" - I now concede on reflection this is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages and that my actions were not the right way to go and for that I will take full responsibility in my statement. ] • ] ⚽ 13:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::It's too late to withdraw now. You have to take responsibility for your behaviour. ] (]) 13:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*{{ec}}<s>'''Support'''</s> - on top of what's been posted on this thread, FN2007 has ] by archiving without a link to the archive on the fresh talk page, without responding to ]. They also ] to add things they didn't say when closing a RM discussion, and haven't responded ]. These things alongside their LLM use (and subsequent wikilawyering "technically I only said I didn't use ''ChatGPT''" responses), refusal to listen to good advice, and everything else in this topic, I think a community ban would be a good idea. ] ] 13:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC) ''Update'' - striking support for cban, I think footballnerd's recent responses and CNC's offer of mentorship indicate that we may be able to avoid it. ] ] 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. ] • ] ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? ]] 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::I will go back and thank her for that. Because I had been advised that your actions could have violated WP policy and thought it would be a good way to deflect the blame, in heinsight it was absolutely the wrong course of action. I would like to draw a line under this whole sorry situation and move on with the reason that I joined once my statement has been published and the subsequent discussion has concluded. ] • ] ⚽ 14:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:(another {{ec}} To clarify, I don't think Footballnerd is doing anything malicious or deliberately trying to time-waste. I think they are a misguided new bold editor who unfortunately doesn't listen to advice and is stubborn to self-reflect. If this cban goes ahead I urge them to appeal in 6 months with a better understanding of how wikipedia works, with a more cautious editing style and more acceptance of community opinions. ] ] 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::I am not being malicious, there was only one motivation for my actions - wanting to help. | |||
| *:*::My comments on this and the above thread have been ill judged. | |||
| *:*::As for the ban, I'd like to ask that I be spared at this moment in time in view of my above comments and the concession statement that I will be posting when I return home. ] • ] ⚽ 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... ]] 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Because I'm posting from my phone and I'm not at home. When I return to my PC later today I'll make the statement. ] • ] ⚽ 14:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*<del>Support CBAN.</del> Using a chatbot to generate discussion then denying it when called out is already deeply contemptuous. Turning around and filing a chatbot generated revenge report for people not believing your lies about not using a chatbot? Words fail. ] (]) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) {{small|{{ins|edited 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC); see below.}}}} | |||
| *:*:FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. ] • ] ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. ]] 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. ] • ] ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. ]] 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. ] • ] ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. ]] 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::I admit that I did, I just saw the line of "I didn't use ChatGPT" as an easy 'get out of jail card'. ] • ] ⚽ 14:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::While that might be technically accurate when you answered that you did not use Chat-GPT, you were intentionally being deceptive in your answers multiple times. It might be slightly different if you were asked ''specifically about Chat-GPT'', however multiple times you were ''specifically asked about the broad term of LLM''. Your current claim of, {{tq|never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT}}, falls on deaf ears because it is clear that you were dodging the questions, and indeed intentionally addressed only Chat-GPT for the purpose of deception instead of honesty. ] ] 17:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::'''Soft-struck''' prior comment because now I see you have admitted to such activity prior to my comment above. ] ] 05:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:{{a note}} for ], just to inform you there is a ] that you may not have seen. I was about to send generic pings to !voters of this section, but it appears all other editors are aware of this proposal already (or voted afterwards at least). This isn't intended to influence your decision, only to provide you updated information. ] (]) 23:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::{{rtp}} Withdrawing support for CBAN in light of ] combined with acceptance of mentorship by {{u|CommunityNotesContributor}} (thanks for the ping: I've been offwiki).{{pb}}{{Ping|Footballnerd2007}} I'm sure the point has got across, but please respect your colleagues here. Using an LLM (of any brand) in discussions is disrespectful of our time; assuming we won't notice is disrespectful of our competence. Please engage with the spirit of other people's communications, rather than with the precise words chosen. Misplaced Pages is very much unlike a courtroom: we're here to work together on a shared project, not to win arguments against each other. I look forward to your earnest acculturation. ] (]) 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *<s>'''Support''' as this behavior is clearly ]. </s>] (]) 15:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' CBAN as this editor has caused a monumental waste of the volunteer time of other editors, which is our most precious commodity. This is an encyclopedia, not a robot debating society. ] (]) 18:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. First choice would be an indefinite block. Despite the user's sudden acts of contrition, I don't trust them. I don't see them as an asset to the project. As for their recent statement that some think is AI-generated, my ''guess'' is it's a mixture, maybe we should call it AI-assisted. However, I wouldn't support an indefinite block if it were just that. What preceded the complaint by GS and their conduct at ANI was egregiously disruptive.--] (]) 18:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - I say give them some rope. There is good discussion going on below, and I don't think anything is gained by blocking an editor who does at times add value. We can always revisit this later - and presumably the action would then be quick and obvious. BTW, I thought we all used AI to some extent - certainly when I misspell words like "certainyl" I then accept the AI in chrome changing the spelling. Or even improving the grammar if I turn on those options. Also ]'s numerous draft articles in his userspace always confounds me. I've asked them before to write these articles in draft-space where there can be a collaborative effort, rather than their userspace where they won't let anyone else edit. ] (]) 00:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Haven't voted in this proposal yet, am abstaining for now per trying to avoid advocacy as potential mentor. The two points I will however question is: would a CBAN solve these issues or postpone them until a later date? Would a 1–2 month mentorship more likely bring about the results of reform or failure much sooner? If we want to talk about ] as we have do so, it might be worth ] the time wasted in not mentoring a newish editor into the folds of the encyclopedia. ] (]) 00:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Nfitz - that is a nonsense, editors can and do edit my user drafts whenever they want. My issue was with them moving one into mainspace. ]] 16:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose:''' CommunityNotesContributor has offered to mentor him, and the mentoring conditions have been accepted. Let's see what comes of that, and we can always revisit the subject of a ban after CNC reports back. ] 04:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strong oppose''' - A mentor has been provided. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support mentorship''' offered below by CNC, but I still have significant concerns, which I expressed after FBN's response below. ] ] 18:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' as too soon. An alternative for mentoring was proffered instead.]] 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===MENTOR proposal=== | |||
| == ] removing references == | |||
| {{quote|] commitments to uphold by ] for a suggested one–two month period. Mentor: ]. | |||
| # Abide by all policies and guidelines and ] to advise given to you by other editors. | |||
| Recently ] began going into articles and removing any citation that used Amazon.com, claiming it was "spam". Another user and I have tried to explain to him how references are needed for things such as DVD release dates, and how retailers are not spam and are in fact sources used in numerous featured articles that require information such as release dates. However, he continues to remove them. He also insists on deleting references for airdates, even though FLC/FAC sometimes require them, as I explained to him; he argues that "there's no reason to provide a link to every single fact in an article", which goes against what Misplaced Pages is based upon. I do not want to start an edit war with him, so I would appreciate some help from an administrator. Thanks. ]]] 21:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| # No page moves (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval from mentor. | |||
| :It's better to use some other type of source, like the studio site, a review, or even IMDB. Amazon is full of errors, it gets its info from the same place as any other retailer so it shouldn't get preferential treatment, and having so many retail links undesirably turns WP into a shopping portal. ] (]) 22:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| # No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it. | |||
| ::I'm not sure how policy comes into this. I'm sure it is discouraged, but as with youtube not entirely banned. It depends on context of the amazon link, I'm sure. Could you supply some diffs? ''<I>]</I>'' <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 22:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| # No more dishonesty, being evasive, or using AI of any kind in discussions due to laziness. | |||
| :::Yes, if another source has the information, then that one should be used. Often, however, Amazon is the best source, and has a precedence in FAC's as a RS. It would be one thing for the user to be replacing the Amazon links with a better source; instead he is just going through removing the refs, leaving the information unsourced. | |||
| # Avoid commenting on all admin noticeboards (unless summoned). If there is a problem, seek advise from mentor. | |||
| :::Here are some of the requested diffs: ]]] 23:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| # Avoid reverting other editors (either manually, part or in full), unless obvious vandalism. | |||
| ::::I don't think Amazon is a reliable source, or that it establishes notability. If the information can't be documented by more suitable than Amazon, consider removing it. ] (]) 23:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| :::::Regardless, Amazon and prominent retailers have been established as a RS in numerous FA articles (which strictly follow wiki guidelines). ]]] 23:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I looked at the examples. I don't want to get involved with those articles but I think the stuff about the DVD/Blueray releases should be removed completely on notability grounds. Amazon might be ok as a source for some info whose notability/relevance has been established in some other way, but no such relevance is documented in the examples 1 and 3. For example 2, sourcing those dates to NHK seems preferable than sourcing them to a retailer. It could also be that some of the Amazon citations in the other FA's you mention should be cleaned up. If you have some examples I'm willing to take a look at them. ] (]) 00:00, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :That makes absolutely no sense at all. DVD's are an important aspect of television shows, and one of the things needed for an episode list. No offense, but those comments and your suggestion of using IMDb as a RS hints that you don't have much expertise in this area. | |||
| :Can an experienced admin please give their input on this? ]]] 00:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::There is almost assuredly a press release or something on an official website for some stuff that new to show when they were released.--] (]) 00:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::as a side note you really shouldn't have the seasons linked to the same page that they are on like that.--] (]) 00:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just to get you started, here is the first one, Smallville, season 1, happy hunting .--] (]) 00:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Can you please provide a source such as that saying when it was released in Europe or Australia? ]]] 00:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Have not been able to find much of anything other than commercial sites or blogs. Honestly, what you should do is replace all of the Amazon links that you can with other sources. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::As I have said before, replacing Amazon links is fine if a better source can be found. But in cases such as the one I just explained, non-commercial sites do not have the needed information. ]]] 01:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::If a link to Amazon is serving as a reference for some fact in an article, it should not be removed, in my opinion. DVDs are one topic where an Amazon link may be the only source for some bit of information that editors believe to be significant to the article. It is often not easy to find reliable DVD information from non-commercial sites. Some might argue that the information is not important enough, but that's a matter for local consensus to decide. Amazon can be treated as a reliable source for what the publisher asserts about the DVD. ] (]) 03:19, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| This goes a bit beyond original requirements, and the last two are effectively preventative measures to try and avoid problems arising. An editor involved exclusively on footy articles has limited to no need for involvement in admin noticeboards. ] (]) 17:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I'd like to thank ] for alerting me to this ANI. Editor ] has acted a less than straightforward manner from the start. His opening statement on my talk page was incorrect, that sites such as Amazon "are used in every featured article on television subjects". I demonstrated by lengthy example that it was not the actual case, but he didn't bother to reply to this. | |||
| :I agree to those principles and am grateful for the mentorship opportunity! ] • ] ⚽ 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Editor ] did not simply revert edits to a TV article. In a space of 5 minutes, he entirely reverted edits made to 8 articles. I had examined the references before removing them, and questioned whether he had been "considering the content at all." It appeared not. After explaining at length, presenting various issues, I quoted ] ("The policy on sourcing is Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, which requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations."), suggesting that past air dates are rarely questioned or vandalized, and therefore do not need references. ] answered — without providing support from Misplaced Pages guidelines — that "dates and publishing details should always be sourced". | |||
| ::Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. ]] 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. ] (]) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. ]] 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. ] (]) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No bad - let me rephrase if that helps. I am not opposed to mentoring in place of the current CBAN proposal. ]] 18:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ====Discussion==== | |||
| ] reverted several of my edits in a few minutes, apparently without reviewing the articles or the references, but apparently in response to changes to ]. This is an article that ] has edited for some time, and seems to have protective feelings. A quick example is his Jan. 18 edit, removing a cleanup tag, with the Edit Summary "revert unexplained tag". I've been citing examples and guidelines. ] is making unsubstantiated claims about what "should" appear in articles, yet does not appear to be even examining the material, but applying a pseudo-rule mechanically, that "Amazon links are always allowed to establish dates". Regards, ] (]) 03:51, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *Going to chime in here as someone involved in footy related articles. I've reviewed some of the editors contributions, and despite all the issues raised in this topic that are very problematic, the user has seemingly made good contributions to football related articles. I otherwise don't doubt that the user previously edited with an IP (I'm pretty sure which IP this is based on edit histories, but assuming good faith it's not part of this topic and not relevant either so won't bother referencing). I only state this to deflect from suggestions that this editor ''could be'' a sockpuppet, as I strongly don't believe to be the case, instead I suspect about 18 months of low-key editing experience up until now. It's therefore a great shame FN2007 went down this road, even if appears to have now retracted the original complaint. Hopefully they can take on board the requests to avoid controversial edits, especially at other user talkpages and such. I'd like to think this is a case of a user trying to run before they can walk, and if they now pace themselves it could work out in the long-term, but alas the damage has also already been done here it seems. Also as a personal suggestion to the editor, if you're here for football articles, then you should be aiming to stay well away from admin noticeboards as they will rarely ever concern you. Generally there ''should be'' relatively low controversy editing football articles, even if most remain contentious topics as BLP. So if football is your editing remit here, you're doing it very badly by ending up at a noticeboard, equally so by opening this topic, even with your good contributions. I am therefore reluctantly offering to act as a ], if the user can commit to the general policy and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, in the hope of not losing a participant in the under edited area of women's football articles. ] (]) 14:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. ] • ] ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. ] (]) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per ], as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. ] (]) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::That's definitely OK with me. ] • ] ⚽ 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Mainly just everyone else at this point it seems. ] (]) 14:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Should I ping? ] (]) 14:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I gladly and humbly '''accept''' your mentorship offer. ] • ] ⚽ 14:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Just to be clear, this would be a ] offer, nothing more than that. Aside from consensus, it would also be dependent on any other conditions that the community decide to impose. ] (]) 14:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Completely not related but wanting to chime in. | |||
| :First off, the fact that Ophois is an editor of the List of ''Smallville'' episodes page is irrelevant. Your example of him removing a cleanup tag that was issued by an IP is rather irrelevant, since there is clearly nothing that required "cleaning" on the page at that time. The fact that an IP chose to vandalize a page by pretending to cite some issue with it doesn't negate the fact that it's vandalism. As for your edits, I've reverted you as well. In the case of ''Smallville'', you removed every source that verified the release date of a season on DVD. I'm not sure if you think they don't need to be sourced, or that the source isn't good enough as your previous response here doesn't actually address either of those. I agree that if "more reliable" sources (i.e. less commercial) can be found, then they should be used, but the dates '''''must''''' be sourced. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it. You cannot claim that something was released on say August 23, 2001 and just expect people to take your word for it. The sources need to be there, and blanket deleting them simply because you might not think they were necessary. Sorry, but they are. So are sources for previous airdates for a TV show, because who is to say that ''ALF'' aired one whatever day it's Misplaced Pages article claimed it aired on? I don't remember seeing it on that date. The only time you don't need a source is when the information is obvious (e.g., the Sun is yellow, grass is green, etc.), because anyone can verify that (ignoring the exceptions, like sunsets and winter time). ] ] 04:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I admit that at first, as a newbie edit, I was kind of surprised on how @] handled things, and I can understand the perspective that it seems to be in violation of assume good faith, but I’d like to point out that as someone who was in the same situation as @], it’s not really in violation of Assume Good Faith. He just is very organized but tries his best to help others. Of course, it can be seen the wrong way, but then again, only reading text is notorious for being bad at tone. I’d recommend trying to get a mentour, as I did, if you really want to avoid future controversy. I’d recommend FootballNerd to take up CNC’s mentorship offer. ] (]) 14:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Looking at one of the articles in controversy, ], I'm not sure what to think. That article looks like it's from Misplaced Pages Shopping. What to do about such articles? --] (]) 07:11, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Furthermore, no one is perfect. Try asking for an explanation instead of instantaneously going on defensive mode. That will always help. Be humble. ] (]) 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::And I thought VHS was a dead format. Anyways, some of the articles will not be like Smallville and will just flat out suck. Each article is different. I remember having to remove links to a website from the ] article even though it serves as an English translation for some sources and some do include other sources. It is always a hit or miss on here. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 07:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have taken up the mentorship offer. ] • ] ⚽ 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I agree that the ] article isn't very good and probably shouldn't be there. However, that's an issue of whether or not to delete it. As long as it is there, sources need to be provided to verify the information, which Piano non troppo either doesn't understand or is choosing to ignore. Piano non troppo feels that episode airdates don't need to be sourced, but is instead using that as an excuse in his edit summaries that in fact remove many more citations such as for DVD release dates. As for airdates themselves, as Bignole and I have already pointed out, they, too, need to be sourced. I have seen multiple FAC/FLC's which require them to be so. As Bignole and I have already said, non-commercial sites are preferable, but in some cases (especially foreign releases) that is just not feasible, leaving retailers as the only option. ]]] 15:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). ] (]) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'd take a moment to consider Piano's comment that he researches before removing: His edits, and justifications for removing references to ] showed that he didn't really check them at all.]. Not sure how to link to specific revisions - sorry - the link to the talk page is the best I can do. ] (]) 16:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. ]] 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Removing references to Amazon that are being used to source release dates and replacing them with nothing is not helping the project. While better sources would be, you know, better, in the absence of same the Amazon references should not be removed. Removing them and not bothering to replace them is degrading the value of the articles, and any action that degrades the value of an article is not an action one should undertake. <s>I do not care about whether or not "Amazon links are 'allowed'" to support dates.</s> While I do care whether or not they are "allowed," I do not see any reason to across-the-board DISallow them. This isn't a Copyvio or BLP issue. It's not black-and-white, and drastic measures are not called for. Deleting things outright is the right call only when the content being deleted is either a serious violation of serious policy or is something which is going to be improved in the same stroke. In the absence of better sourcing, we should use what we have and attempt to improve. Having release dates sourced to Amazon isn't destroying or degrading the project, nor is it turning Misplaced Pages into a "shopping portal" (reality check in aisle 1, reality check in aisle 1). ]] 18:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Agreed, @] maybe hold off on pings for now. ] (]) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I proposed deletion on ]. It's product catalog information, which Misplaced Pages generally doesn't do. I have some misgivings about deletion, but I'm sure we don't want a large number of similar articles. --] (]) 20:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Alright, sounds good. ] (]) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Suggest we focus on the issue at hand and not have this turn into a debate over whether or not that article should be deleted. ]] 02:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Per ] I think pings are appropriate now. ] (]) 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as {{u|CommunityNotesContributor}} has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor. ] (]) 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. ] (]) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm now home and will start drafting after lunch. I'll send it you before posting it here. ] • ] ⚽ 14:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I see a list of conditions but not an explicit proposal for mentoring. Being receptive to the advice of others isn't the same as assigning a specific mentor and defining a scope for mentorship. Can the proposal be clarified, or else renamed? ] (]) 18:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed ]. ] (]) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks for . I did not read the discussion until after you , so it was not evident that a specific mentor had been named. ] (]) 02:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Response from Footballnerd2007=== | |||
| == ]: disruptive user == | |||
| Good Afternoon all, | |||
| Can I start by making something unequivocally clear: my behaviour over the past 24 hours has been unacceptable and has resembled that of a lawyer acting in court, trying to defend my actions in an overly strategic way. This course of action was wrong, and I apologise for it. | |||
| {{userlinks|Tao2911}} | |||
| I’ve been reflecting on the situation, and I want to start by saying I’m really sorry for my actions and the way I’ve handled things. I know I messed up, and I feel it's important to acknowledge that. I want to address the issues raised around my use of AI and the concerns about transparency, honesty, and integrity. | |||
| Having trouble with a tenditious user who is becoming disruptive at ]. | |||
| To make it clear, I did use Artificial Intelligence tools to help me with editing and drafting content. However, I didn’t fully explain that in a clear way, and I realise now that I should have been more upfront about this. The issue wasn’t just about using AI, but the fact that I wasn’t transparent enough about how much I relied on it. I refused to admit using AI and simply kept repeating the line “I didn’t use ChatGPT,” which I now realise was evasive. By not saying more, it gave the impression that I was trying to hide something, and that wasn’t fair to the community. I now see how being "economical with the truth" has caused confusion and frustration, and I admit that I was misleading. | |||
| Trying to avoid 3rr, Tao 2911 inadvertently pastes the article into itself creating a doubled article. ] | |||
| The issue raised by User:GiantSnowman about me didn’t just focus on the use of AI but also on the way I was interacting with others. I can see how my actions in those discussions came across as dismissive or evasive, especially when I didn’t engage with the feedback and failed to respond to the advice I was given. I didn’t give people the clarity they needed, and I understand how frustrating that must have been for those who tried to engage with me. I admit I attempted to “give them the run around.” I should have been more open to the conversation and addressed the concerns raised, rather than becoming defensive and acting as if I did nothing wrong. This is not an attempt to justify it, but I want to admit that the reason I used AI was mainly due to laziness and an attempt to sound more knowledgeable in order to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy. | |||
| After several attempts to fix he inadvertently erases a paragraph in the lead. | |||
| ] | |||
| I also want to address how I behaved today. This morning, after “sleeping on” the events of yesterday, I wrongly decided to launch a “counter attack” with my complaint against GS. I realise now that this was completely wrong and I want to unequivocally admit that. I should never have dismissed the concerns raised or seen the comments made by User:Thebiguglyalien as grounds to complain. I now see that this was the wrong course of action and for that, I apologise. | |||
| Later he discovers that the paragraph is missing, opens yet another discussion thread titled "David Starr vandalism" | |||
| ] | |||
| I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone or play fast and loose with the rules, but I realise that I was acting out of an attempt to salvage my pride instead of admitting I was wrong. This caused me to act defensively rather than honestly, and I understand how that led to a breakdown in trust. I take full responsibility for that. I never meant to cause confusion or frustration, but I can see how I did. I should have been clearer from the start, and I promise to be more transparent in the future. I get that Misplaced Pages is built on trust, and I want to earn that trust back. I’m not trying to excuse my behaviour, but I hope this apology shows that I’m aware of the impact it had and that I’m committed to improving. I pledge that I won’t use AI for WP editing in the future. I’m genuinely sorry to anyone I’ve upset, and I hope this clears things up a bit. | |||
| Replaces the paragraph citing me as a vandal in the edit summary | |||
| ] | |||
| ] • ] ⚽ 16:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Tao2911 was warned by admins about this behavior here:] | |||
| :Thank you for this. ]] 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::You're welcome, I'd really like to put this situation behind us and move on. ] • ] ⚽ 17:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, if that was written without AI tools (GPTzero still says it was 100% written by AI, but it looks a lot more "human" to me than your previous efforts) then you can at least write without them. ] (]) 17:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::To be fair, @], I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... ] (]) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm not surprised. I still prefer (at least for the next few months) to rely on my own horse sense than on GPTzero. ] (]) 09:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Same. I don't find GPTzero and pals particularly useful benchmarks. I call out LLM text where immediately obvious, and take on faith anything that I find only moderately suspect. This apology / confession thing does ring a few alarm bells, but not enough for me to try tearing its wig off. Hopefully we'll gain a constructive contributor after all this. ] (]) 12:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{U|Nfitz}}, please quote or diff one such "writing" so I can try it myself. (And ping me, please.) ]] 10:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It was a bit short, ], but . ] (]) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Well there's something very puzzling going on here. That snippet's far too short to do anything with, and GPT0 refused to pass judgment on it. So I tried something longer of Phil B.'s ({{tq|{{small|I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor.}}}}) and it came back "99% human". ]] 18:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Well, I suppose it's better to be 99% human than 0%. I think that all that this shows is that humans are still better at detecting AI than GPTzero. ] (]) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :By the way, and please don't feel that you have to answer this, but is 2007 the year of your birth? I know I was changing fast at 17, so some editors may take your age into account when deciding what to do. ] (]) 17:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from ]. ] • ] ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well geez now I'm curious what overlaps with Wikilawyering. ] (]) 13:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies. ] • ] ⚽ 14:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I appreciate the maturity in acknowledging your errors. I’d like to clarify this as it’s something I avoided mentioning. | |||
| :The use of AI is not prohibited but heavily frowned upon. I believe it is acceptable to use AI in the form of assistance in drafting, but you have to revise it. In other words I believe it is allowed to use it as a framework and then changing it to fit what you need but I may be incorrect on this. Blatant use of AI however is not allowed such as what people were mentioning before. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :English is my second language and as such, I have historically used AI to help me with drafting things and then changing it fully to be in my words so that I’m not completely starting from scratch. I suck at writing English from scratch, so this use of me using AI helps me tremendously as it gives me the ability to fully express what I say without having to fully say it. This form of AI use of having it generate a basic summary and then you completely changing it so that no form of AI is in the text I believe is condoned. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :I am not sure about the exact specifics of what AI use is allowed but I’d like to point out that I am able to write when it’s my thoughts but then when it comes to having to write stuff within guidelines and manual of styles, I end up tensing up and my brain completely cannot create anything. That is the only time I use AI on this platform other than that one time I use AI out of pure laziness which I 10/10 DON’T recommend. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :I am not sure if this above is correct so I would appreciate if someone here especially @] clarified if this is allowed or not. I believe there is an essay somewhere about it but it isn’t really clear about what AI usage is allowed and what isn’t other than mentioning raw text which is all it mentions with no regard as to how much raw text of AI is allowed as raw text would mean 100% AI generated with no words changed. | |||
| :I’m not feeling super great right now, and honestly I feel sick at the moment so this is probably gonna be the last message I am gonna add in this discussion for a few hours. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :Cheers,<br> | |||
| :] (]) 19:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::You are looking for ]. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. ]] 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I was about to begin a reply with "]",{{dummy ref|TOMATS}} but it looks like that month-ago discussion has not yet been closed or archived. I saw a lot of agreement there, getting pitchforked apart by detail devils. A well read closure should help move us forward with the word­smithing. ] (]) 12:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Courtesy pings to increase discussion as the following pings all commented in the sections prior. | |||
| :@] | |||
| :@] | |||
| :@] | |||
| :@] | |||
| :{{ping|Black Kite}} | |||
| :{{ping|Bugghost}} | |||
| :{{ping| isaacl}} | |||
| :{{ping| CommunityNotesContributor}} | |||
| :{{ping| Randy Kryn}} | |||
| :{{ping|Bbb23}} | |||
| :{{ping| Cullen328}} | |||
| :{{ping| Simonm223}} | |||
| :{{ping|Folly Mox}} | |||
| :{{ping| Bgsu98}} | |||
| :{{ping|Yamla}} | |||
| :Sorry for the delay CNC. | |||
| :Cheers, <br> ] (]) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. ] (]) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please don't send mass ping ] to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. ] (]) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Seconding Isaacl - these pings were unecessary. Editors who wanted to follow this discussion would have subscribed. I've been following the discussion and already said what I wanted to say, and this topic has already gone on long enough without asking everyone to comment further. ] ] 07:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My personal opinion is that LLM content is not able to be brought into compliance with Misplaced Pages copyright restrictions and is highly disrespectful of others in article talk. As such I don't believe there is any place for LLMs and other chatbots in Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 12:12, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Since we're here (at the most visible venue): ] (2023) concludes inconclusively. {{Slink|Special:Permalink/1265594360|Copyright of LLM output}} (December 2024) seems to indicate potential CC-BY-SA compliance varies by which giant tech behemoth's proprietary AI implementation is used. Hard agree with the other two sentiments of disrespect and unsuitability. ] (]) 12:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That's interesting. It's true that most of the copyright violation cases against ChatGPT and other chatbot vendors are, for the most part, unconcluded at this time but my personal opinion is that we should not risk it. ] (]) 12:42, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Yes, of course, a very good statement of contrition and hope for future editing (hopefully not all AI). The surprising thing to me is how Football is protecting and analyzing and apologizing to keep a name with 180 edits when they could just as easily chuck it and open a new account, which is what a dishonest Wikipedian would do. Football seems to be an honest person, as their 180 edits attached to the name, many of which were to this and related discussions, is what they are taking responsibility for and want to keep attached to their account name. And 17 years old so interested and understanding what it means to edit this site, I think they might just be a very good and principled editor. ] (]) 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' the last change mentorship that has been offered by CNC, as it is the best step forward. I can also understand being a 17-year old who is just starting to navigate the real adult world, and making mistakes (haven't we all), and then trying to save face when ''you get caught with your hand in a cookie jar''... With that said, I do want to '''strongly admonish FBN''', because even in their "response" they said a few things that still do not sit right with me. For example {{tq|I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone }} however, Folly Mox asked about their prior statement of "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering and their age, they said simply {{tq|That comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies.}}. That is in addition to their own statement earlier in the "response" stating that they kept using the phase that ''they didn't use chat GPT'' even whens specifically asked about LLM, and that they {{tq|now realise was evasive}} -- I believe that it wasn't until this ANI that they realized they were being decepitve. I also take great pause at the statement of {{tq|to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy}}. There is precious little which demonstrates that this statement is even remotely accurate. Even in raising this ANI, very few of the instructions were followed. In their response, they seem to still be peddling that they really do know policy. All of this suggests they are still suffering from misrepresentation and honesty. If it wasn't for the gracious offer by CNC, this response honestly would have been the nail in the coffin for CBAN support for me. ] ] 18:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == MAB Teahouse talk == | |||
| Wallpapers my talk page with warning templates ] | |||
| I didn't want to, but I one-hour protected the talk page of the Teahouse due to MAB going there. The Teahouse itself is already protected. Obviously they're going there precisely to make things as difficult on us as possible, but I don't know what else to do. ] (]) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Tried to report me for vandalism here: ] | |||
| :Would it be possible to create a link (or button) that creates a new section on one's own talk page with {{tl|Help me}} preloaded? We could then add this to the page's editnotice. ] (]) 09:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Removes POV label from article without consensus, proclaims me a vandal in edit summary ] | |||
| ::I protected ] for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — ] (]) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::OK, I've fixed that. — ] (]) 12:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Looks like today they're hitting every help page they can find. ] (]) 09:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::<small>In relation to "MAB" issues, is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of when the notoriously difficult Queen Mab speech was pretty much hit out of park in 1997's ]? ] (]) 🦘 12:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::::<small>I think it's just you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:21, 9 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| == Kosem Sultan - warring edit == | |||
| And then proclaims that I am not useful and wishes I would just go away ] | |||
| Hello, I am terribly sorry if I write this in wrong place, but I really don't know what place would be best to report this. | |||
| I was editing page of ] and I noticed this user: 109.228.104.136 changed phrase in infobox "spouse: Ahmed I" into "consort of: Ahmed I", claiming 'they were never married'. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=K%C3%B6sem_Sultan&oldid=1263148667 | |||
| Says "(Starr) is coming around and stirring this crap" | |||
| ] | |||
| Because of this, I added information they were married and sourced this with book. However, this person keep revert to their preffered version of infobox. I asked them on Talk page about providing source. When I pointed that their source not disputes or even misinnterprets mine, they deleted my talk. They did this twice and even claimed I 'vandalized' Kosem's page. | |||
| Would it be possible to block this user? ] (]) 02:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| As inexperienced user I was few times into edit warring, as I did not know how exactly rules are there.I try to be careful now to not make disruptions and while there is instruction to undo undsourced informations, I am not sure if I am allowed to undo their - unsourced - edition, as I already did this few times. I would not label changing 'spouse' for 'consort of' as vandalism per say, but I want to protect my edition and I wish this person provided source so we could each consensus. You can see our - now deleted by them - discussion here: | |||
| :I've added the name of the user to this report, and I'd note that of their 1477 live edits, 1383 (93.6%) have been to the ] article or its talk page. . Their 787 edits account for 26% of the article's 3025 edits. Superficially, without evaluating the edits, or those of David Starr 1, whose 204 edits are the third-most to the article, it seems possible that there are ] issues. ] (]) 03:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267744138#Kosem_Sultan_was_wife_of_Ahmed_I. | |||
| 2) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267749540#Kosem_was_wife_of_Ahmed | |||
| (I do not know if I linked this correctly, but both shound be find in history of talk page of user with today date) | |||
| I hope it can be seen I was willing to discuss things and I even proposed to merge ours versions, if only this person provide scholar source - which they didn't, as Tik Tok video they linked contardicts statement from my book (see details in discussions). | |||
| ::For background, see from a couple of days ago. ] (]) 03:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I also want to add that blocked user called Cecac https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:K%C3%B6sem_Sultan#Marriage | |||
| used exactly the same argument, as historian in Tik Tok provided by 109.228.104.136. I do not know if 109.228.104.136 and Cecac are the same person, but I think it should be checked. | |||
| Finally, I do not know how much video made on Tik Tok should be considered as reliable source, so I am not sure how to act in this situation. | |||
| Again I apologize if I leave this message in wrong board - there were multiple issues so I decided to list them all. Please notify me if I am allowed edit Kosem's page and brought back informations, as I really want avoid going back-and-forth and do not want to be blocked myself. --] (]) 14:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have indeed been heavily invested in working on the Adi Da page in past weeks, quite collaboratively with other editors until David Starr 1 reappeared and without discussion or notice placed a POV alert on the page, with the comment "Sorry to spoil your fun". He proceeded to attempt dozens of un-consensual edits to the page, removing reams of sourced info, changing phrasing to biased POV, and trying to remove or downplay all mentions of this controversial figures "controversial" activity - mentions that are in all cases heavily sourced and cited and phrased to reflect context and qualify source POV. He has failed to cooperate or acknowledge attempts to meet his POV, adn has generally been completely disruptive. Due to his activity, I have actively sought out hard copies of many of the texts (encyclopedic and NPOV authoritative sources) that had previously been cited by other editors, but in many cases only parts available online. Having these sources has allowed me to fill out, cite, and footnote many areas previously left vague at best. I have, with the help of other editors, written the majority of the curent biography of figure profiled, and again, with other editors, significantly increased thoroughness, readability, and accuarcy of page. Simply look a version from 3 months ago to now. I have been the only active editor without admitted pro-Adi Da bias, and have been active to maintain the neutral POV of the material, which Star in particular has a history of slanting radically to biased POV. I encourage anyone to simply compare versions of the page and see for yourselves.] (]) 04:09, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : |
:I want to add that I informed user 109.228.104.136 about this reprt, however they delete this from their Talk page. ] (]) 23:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| == Evading Article-Ban == | |||
| :::::the record shows the cooperative involvement of many. I don't know what "diffs" are, but if mean a lengthy list of links showing you to be an obstreperous and uncooperative editor, I don't have the desire, know-how, or time to make it. Again, I just suggest anyone go to page and review, talk and history - past versions of the page and current. The page is balanced and well sourced, with hundreds of citations and dozens of footnotes.] (]) 16:12, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=], and it was a ], not a ]. Closing this. - ] <sub>]</sub> 20:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{User|Westwind273}}, who was banned from editing ] and its TP last week following an ANI for uncivil behavior, appears to be evading their ban through their talk page in order to display the same uncivil, ] and ] posts that betray ] and ] behavior, not to mention their refusal to drop the stick that led to them being kicked off the article in the first place. See and . ] (]) 16:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :You must be kidding. How am I evading the ban? No one who is editing the Jeju article is bothering to read my talk page. Why would they? Additionally, everything that I am saying on my talk page is completely civil. I am not making personal attacks on anyone in any way. I think you need to drop the stick on this. ] (]) 17:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Requesting rangeblock == | |||
| :Westwind273 does not appear to have been banned? The previous ANI appears to be ], but that seems to have resulted in blocks, not a ban. | |||
| :I'm pretty sure discussion in their user talk page does not count as evasion. – ] (]) (]) 17:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::A pageblock is not the same thing as a topic ban, {{u|Borgenland}}. I see no problem with their comments on their own talk page. ] (]) 18:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I agree with Cullen328, as the one whose comment the user in question is responding to. For what it's worth, I do not foresee this editor being constructive elsewhere but have no issue as long as they don't escalate to personal attacks and keep to their talk page.--] ] 19:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == NOt here account == | |||
| I'd like to request some form of draconian measure be taken against an individual who is hopping from IP address to IP address causing disruption and attacking me personally. I am not certain if this is a full list, but these are the IP addresses that have been troublesome to date, along with some example diffs: | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 20:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{iplinks|142.68.92.131}} - | |||
| {{User|203.30.15.99}} But this ] is pretty much saying they will continue unless they are sanctioned. ] (]) 16:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{iplinks|142.177.214.226}} | |||
| *{{iplinks|142.68.165.13}} | |||
| *{{iplinks|142.177.62.236}} - Repeatedly reinserting material removed by ] - , , , ''et al'' (received short term block) | |||
| *{{iplinks|142.68.164.3}} - (evading block) | |||
| *{{iplinks|142.68.220.13}} - | |||
| *{{iplinks|142.177.158.217}} - | |||
| *{{iplinks|142.68.171.136}} | |||
| *{{iplinks|142.68.220.68}} | |||
| *{{iplinks|142.177.60.141}} - | |||
| *{{iplinks|142.68.218.153}} - | |||
| *{{iplinks|142.177.211.159}} - | |||
| :Not an account; already blocked for a month by {{u|Bbb23}}. ] (]) 18:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *, , at ]. | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| Some of these IP addresses received short-term blocks, but these were ineffective. I understand that rangeblocks can be difficult, with consequences for other anonymous users, but the constant disruption, vandalism and personal attacks surely makes this a viable option. -- ] (]) 02:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Transphobia in my talk page by 136.57.92.245 == | |||
| : I think Misplaced Pages needs to be more proactive in filing abuse reports with ISPs instead of playing these endless blocking games and allowing good contributors to be wikistalked. How much longer is this "overhaul" supposed to go on at ]? And how can people file abuse reports otherwise? ] (]) 03:03, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=IP blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{Userlinks|136.57.92.245}} has posted the following - | |||
| ::Thank you. I will keep you posted if the problem returns after the blocks have expired. -- ] (]) 03:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ] - to my talk page, after I reverted a section blank which was done to ]. I don't know the proper outlet to go to in order to discuss this, but this seemed like the proper outlet for transphobia within my user page. | |||
| ] (]) 17:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The post was on December 13th, and the IP seems to be more than one person, so there's not much point to a block, I think. You can certainly remove the posting. ] (]) 17:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I know we don't block IP addresses indefinitely, but this one seems to be used by only one person (or if by more than one they have remarkably similar interests), so a short preventative block is possible if they make any more such comments. ] (]) 17:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I am sorry for the inconvenience this has caused you. -- ] (]) 15:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::136.57.92.245's edits to ], the apparent prelude to the personal attack, span a period of 29 days. – ] (]) (]) 17:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Aye, the collateral damage is potentially 64,000 addresses. Any admin wishing to may tweak the blocks to be more tightly focussed. ]<span style="background-color:white; color:grey;">&</span>] 00:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :(Not an admin) I've left them a level 4 warning for the personal attack. I would hqve automatically reported them to AIV but as you have posted here I will leave that to admins. ] (]) 17:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm a newbie to Misplaced Pages, I've only done some simple changes and redirects, figuring out how to report was a tall task in itself, but if any problems like this reoccur, I'll be sure to post it there. Thank you. ] (]) 17:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've placed a three-month {{tl|anonblock}}. They don't need a warning and they don't seem to be multiple people. They can request an unblock if they're willing to talk about their hate. ] (]) 18:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == IP User 103.109.59.32 persisting in unsourced inflation of Buddhist population numbers == | |||
| == Disruptive signature == | |||
| *{{IPlinks|103.109.59.32}} | |||
| This IP was temporarily blocked a few days ago for persistently editing articles about religion to greatly increase the Buddhist population numbers and decrease the numbers for other faiths. Upon expiry of the block they have immediately resumed the same behavior (for example and ), and are attempting to cite the numbers they inserted to advocate for changes in other articles (for example ). Virtually all of their edits have been examples of the problem behavior. -- ] ] 18:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :While I certainly understand concerns that American demographic sources are making systematic mistakes regarding the population of China the IP is not going about this in anything remotely resembling an appropriate method. ] (]) 18:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: ''see the related thread a bit south at ]'' | |||
| == User:CNMall41 is Removing reliable sources and contents == | |||
| ] has brought to my attention that ] has been using a template for his signature — it is ]. As Jack M. has pointed out to me, this is a clear violation of ], so I've protected it after Jack M. changed it to make it simpler (there is just no way I can delete it, it's been used too often to remove it from all the discussions). | |||
| {{Atop|I blocked OP as a sock at SPI.--] (]) 19:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|CNMall41}} | |||
| ] is Removing reliable sources like ], ], ] from ]. He also removed the list from ]. Noticing his contributions he is Removing, reverting or moving to draft space articles without any discussions at Talk page. I also noticed that he always through the new Misplaced Pages users in Sock puppet investigations. He also a major user who delete, revert or move pages from main space to draft space related to Television and film from ] and ]. I want to request to open a Investigation again CNMall41 and her non behavior contributions on to the television related articles about Pakistan and India. He also harasses user to keep away from her talk page. Please take a look on that. Thank you <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :Yes, I removed the unreliable sourcing which is non-bylined, , etc. SPI also filed . --] (]) 18:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *], you have been an editor for 5 days now unless you are a returning editor evading a block. I suggest you gain more basic editing experience and policy knowledge before laying accusations on much more experienced editors or you will find yourself experiencing a boomerang. You also don't know much about how Misplaced Pages works if you think you can request that an "investigation" can be "opened" and you didn't even offer any diffs to support your claims so this is going nowhere. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :This is a content dispute that should be handled on the talk page and if not resolved there, taken to DR. (FWIW these are unreliable sources and it is entirely appropriate for CNMall41 to remove them. This should be promptly closed with a ] to the filer. ] (]) 18:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I'm bringing this here for review. If anyone objects, please feel free to change my decision. - ] (formerly ]) <sup>]</sup> 07:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: {{re|Dclemens1971}} Given the precociousness of the complaining "new" editor, I think a ] would be better than a ] in this case. ] ] 19:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Correct, I typed that before I saw there was an SPI opened. ] (]) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Looking at the ] history, ] may need a closer look outside of the CU results. To my eye, the evidence shows a pretty close connection. ] ] 19:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Yes, specifically and . Glad you saw that without me pointing it out. --] (]) 19:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have not filed at ANI yet, but if you look at the most recent filings in the linked SPI case, there are other users involved that were not caught up in the CU which are still likely SOCKS and UPE. --] (]) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Per recent claims, I have opted not to close this as I was originally going to do as this comment. This recent new information clearly warrants this discussion. ] (]) 19:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{Abot}} | |||
| == IP persistently removing sourced content. == | |||
| I replaced it with: ] and have subst'd some of the usages; there are not many as this user showed up just a few days ago. See the thread at the bottom of tbsdy's talk and note that I refactored some there. The other Jack's talk page, too. There is also the fact that I just changed my userpage to use some dynamic behavior and this new user immediately took some of the techniques used in inappropriate directions. I've little doubt that this is no innocent noob. Cheers, ] 08:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I understand that the signature, and the way I was presenting it was disruptive. I complied with ]'s initial request to refactor the sig and began substing it. I also expressed intent to refactor it again if it was still unacceptable. Instead of commenting on the refactored sig, Jack changed the entire template to a basic sig, and Tbsdy protected it. Not sure if thats standard operating procedure around here, but it seems kinda wack. ] 08:11, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm seeing thirty or so edits to Misplaced Pages and user talk space. Why can't we just delete this? ] 08:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::: It can, and should be deleted ASAP; do your own checking and go. ;) ] 08:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: {{ec}}]. Your refactored version that I replaced was no better, just fewer alternate names in the loop. The significant usages have been subst'd and the further subpages that the thing used need to be locked down. I'm off; I'm sure this will all be properly sorted when I next look. Folks, look at the history of the sig and all of our talk pages, and both jack user pages (and I mean the implementations, not the 'look'). ] 08:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::And why cant the subpages just be deleted and allow me to make a normal sig in the main page? {{SUBST:User:Jack "Red Hood" Napier/Sig}} 08:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Oh wonderful. Now I can't even use the basic sig. {{SUBST:User:Jack "Red Hood" Napier/Sig}} 08:23, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I've deleted the sub-pages and if you want to personalize your signature, go to the "My preferences" button at the top of every page. There's an option for signature design on the very first page. ] 08:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Will do. And thank you AniMate, for being (fairly) reasonable. {{SUBST:User:Jack "Red Hood" Napier/Sig}} 08:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You're welcome. Try and edit more in article space. We're here to build an encyclopedia, not our user pages. ] 08:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: Is it just me, or does this look like GRAWP under a new name, after all, he came on and did a lot of vandalism with "BATMAN - The DARK NIGHT" themes about it. His webpage has just the same theme on it, two quotes from the joker greet you on the front page, the name Jack Napier is the name given to the Joker, and the colors are purple and green, Joker colors. | |||
| ::::::::: No, I'm not GRAWP. If a CU is required to prove that, fine, I voluntarily submit to CU. {{SUBST:User:Jack "Red Hood" Napier/Sig}} 23:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: No, you're not; you're ]; Grawp's just being a /b/tard. ] 00:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I call a huge ] on this one. | |||
| ]<i>]</span></i></font> 17:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ] has been persistently well removing sourced content from the articles ], ], ], ] where the content discusses the involvement of people under the age of 18 in those subjects, on the basis of some of the people involved also being over 18. Glancing at their edit history you can see that they have ]red on all four of those articles, although they may have stopped short of breaking 3RR in most cases they are continuing to be disruptive and acting as those they are ]. In they changed the content to state that Burusera products are legal for under 18s to sell, despite clearly understanding that they are not - I would say that amounts to deliberate disruption/vandalism. ---- ]-'']'' -- 19:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| It's not resolved, he's now signing with no links to either his user or usertalk page. ] (]) 00:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :<small>Courtesy ping, {{ping|Cassiopeia|KylieTastic|p=}} also have tried to warn this IP user.</small> -- ]-'']'' -- 19:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : He needs to open his prefs and do a normal sig; if he's skilled enough to repurpose my code as he has, he's up to this, so omitting it is willful. And someone will have to fix the bad sigs he's leaving about. All amount do DUCK-sign. ] 00:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::While they don't leave edit summaries except for the section headings, it looks like some of their edits were removing inappropriate content from these articles. Can you provide diffs of edits that you find problematic? Generally, when making an argument that an editor is being disruptive, the OP provides diffs that support that accusation and I don't find the one edit you link to serious enough to issue a sanction. I mean, we are already talking about articles that border the line on pornography. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::It's the ignoring warnings and lack of discussion that's the issue, so pointing to individual diffs doesn't show the whole picture. But to give a couple more specific examples: is deliberately misleading, "High school students include those who are legally 18 years old." is obviously a true statement but doesn't relate to the content being removed - which is about Australia's laws on the matter do apply to adults. . I can't see any instance where they removed removed inappropriate content - rather they seem focussed on removing content that mentions any laws. -- ]-'']'' -- 06:38, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == 92.22.27.64 is edit-warring and abusing editors at ] and on talk == | |||
| ::Its not willful, I was just being lazy. I've fixed it now. ] (]) 00:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked ] <sub>]</sub> 21:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ::: and the litter you've left about? and note that I just the above; don't use the character entities; they clutter the wiki up. ] 00:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *{{IPlinks|92.22.27.64}} | |||
| Can we get help with an editor who is repeatedly adding poorly sourced, fringe theories into ]? They have been warned several times (, , and ). This started due to insertion of poorly sourced fringe material, such as , into the article, including in the lede . Then there was some edit warring , and . Then accusing editors of covering up "mass child rape" when they attempted to clean up the article , , and . The editor doesn't want to engage and keeps reinserting dubious text, including implications about BLPs. ] (]) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Also note the causal transphobia as well definitely neads a block. ] (]) 20:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Looks like the IP has been blocked for a week. ]] 21:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Edit warring on US politicians around the ] == | |||
| In addition to leaving a bunch of the <nowiki>{{SUBST:…</nowiki> "sigs" about, he's changed his sig in a new pointy manner. His username includes two quotation marks (allowed, but unimpressive). The sig he is posting with now is: | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | result = The Lord of Misrule is blocked for edit warring and there is no merit to their retaliatory report. If disruption returns when the block expires, escalating sanctions can be considered. ] ] 04:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * <tt><nowiki>] (]</nowiki></tt> | |||
| }} | |||
| *{{userlinks|The Lord of Misrule}} | |||
| which snots up the editbox and the database. A more courteous sig would be: | |||
| I'm getting caught up into an edit war with {{userlinks|The Lord of Misrule}} regarding the so-called "Gaza genocide" on ], ], and ]. Rather than continue, I am extricating myself and bringing their conduct here. From my attempts on their talk page, including the Arab-Israel, BLP, and American politics (post 1992) contentious topic warnings, are going unheeded. – ] (]) 20:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * <tt><nowiki>] (]</nowiki></tt> | |||
| The ] are for html, not wiki-text; MediaWiki will handle the conversion for generated pages. "Red Hood" has demonstrated sufficient skill to be aware of this issue and I see this as him seeking to maintain as disruptive a sig as he can. As backstory, my editing history show a lot of cleaning up of this sort of thing, so this amounts to deliberately doing something that he knows I will notice and be inclined to clean-up. ] 02:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :<s>Jack I was using the more courteous one until you yourself pointed out that you had to fix it. That is when I changed to the one with the <nowiki>&quot;</nowiki>'s in it. Which one would you like me to use? ] (]) 05:23, 17 February 2010 (UTC)</s> | |||
| :My fault. I misread the diff above. Will switch now. ] (]05:27, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: <span class="plainlinks">.<br /><small>note to posterity; the take-away from this silliness is that the wiki-code underlying this demonstrates how to properly encode ] in examples of wiki-text given in discussions; it also illustrates how to better present examples of wiki-text using the html tt-element and the wiki nowiki-element in <tt>monospace</tt> (as opposed to the ] technique of using the pre-element; we now return to our regular programming;)</small><br /><span style="font-size:80%;background:#eee;background:-moz-radial-gradient(bottom right 90deg,farthest-side,#777,#eee);display:inline-block;padding:.15em .5em .1em;border:1px solid #777;-moz-box-shadow:.1em .1em .5em rgba(0,0,0,.6);-moz-border-radius:1em;">] 20:27, 17 February 2010 (UTC)</span> | |||
| :::<small>eh? My "take-away" from this is that as long as we continue to allow vanity-sigs, we'll have problems like this. ] (]) 20:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::I agree ;) <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 20:38, 17 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| == SandyGeorgia: enough is enough == | |||
| That {{user|SandyGeorgia}} is one of Misplaced Pages's most prolific editors is uncontested: at 100k+ edits she currently ]. She is not an admin (one wonders what might come out of the woodwork if ] were turned blue), but she is known by many for her involvement in ]. | |||
| I had rather promised myself that I wouldn't edit until at least March, having been driven into semi-retirement by SandyGeorgia's campaign of harassment involving misrepresentation, manipulation, serial accusations of bad faith (]) and even, increasingly just before I declared semi-retirement, insinuations of advocacy-based COI editing (eg at the top of this ] page about me). I've managed to avoid editing for a week now, but I have on occasion logged in to check my watchlist, and have observed Sandy's behaviour with increasing dismay, and ultimately feel forced to do ''something''. | |||
| Background: | |||
| Sandy is an editor with links of some kind to Venezuela, and a point of view that strongly supports the Venezuelan opposition. This is fine, but hand in hand with that has gone an attempt to smear sources that comment on Venezuela in terms she disagrees with, by insinuating connections with the Venezuelan government. For these purposes, Sandy applies standards of sourcing which she would not accept in any other context. I could broaden this point, but it's taken my 1.5 hrs to write this, and will limit myself to the CEPR/Weisbrot issues. | |||
| Issue 1: | |||
| * on 23 Jan the ] ] looked like . It included, as the second-to-last sentence, sourced to the New York Times, that "He is a broad supporter of Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez' economic policies." | |||
| * after an enormous flurry of edits by Sandy, by 25 Jan it looked like . At this point "He has been described as an adviser to Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez and supporter of his policies." was the last sentence in the lead. The sources supporting "adviser to Chavez" are i) a minor Spanish source which described Weisbrot as the "intellectual architect" of the ] and ii) infoshop.org, . One of these sources does not support the claim made, so the definitive statement ''he is an adviser to Chavez'' (not "some sources say" or "X claims that" - authorial claim of fact) rests on a single source. Is it a trivial claim, and a really good source? No, it is a massively significant claim, and an incredibly poor source: '''yet stated as ''fact''.''' | |||
| * the second part of the new 25 Jan sentence is "who is described as supporting Chavez's policies". This is now sourced to two footnotes. One is the original NYT source. the other footnote is a composite of a number of sources (SYNTH alert!). Let's look at these sources. The first is USA Today, claiming (without explanation or detail) that Weisbrot "has supported Chavez's policies." Possibly ] demands better than a vague passing remark in a short news piece to stamp someone as a supporter of someone the US more or less considers an enemy, but let's leave that to one side. What other source delights await to support the claim? Some statements of Weisbrot's perhaps? A paper or two? No, in fact we have a remark in ] (a minor now-defunct online news service); a Miami Herald op-ed (I thought op-eds were frowned upon as sources for controversial statements in BLPs... cough), a Washington Post ''blog entry'', and a magazine and website published by the ]. Fantastic sources for contentious BLP material. | |||
| * attempts to discuss these issues in detail, using ] (]) and other dispute resolution, were shut down aggressively by SandyGeorgia - possibly because she knew her work would not stand close scrutiny. | |||
| Issue 2: | |||
| * Sandy's 24/5 Jan flurry of edits also resulted in a transparently ]y attempt to smear Weisbrot by linking him with the ], relying on a poor source of debatable relevance (National Review, making merely the vague and unsourced claim that VIO "coordinates a media response team" that includes "representatives from the Center for Economic Policy and Research") and a Center for Public Integrity report which mentions neither CEPR nor Weisbrot. But the Center for Public Integrity ''did'' feel the need to publish a response from a number of people, including Weisbrot, in response to the various allegations of people being associated with VIO. Unbelievably, Sandy summarises this as the letter "saying that their statements about the VIO were "highly misleading"." The letter is not about the VIO, it is about the people smeared by supposed connections to VIO - and Sandy seeks to use this to smear Weisbrot and CEPR, neither of whom are mentioned in the original piece! | |||
| ** The text was eventually removed from ] after intervention via ]; the same text currently remains at ]. | |||
| Issue 3: misleading SPI report leading to unjustified block: | |||
| * these edits come to the attention of ] on 9 Feb; it subsequently becomes clear that he is associated with CEPR. He edit wars unsuccessfully to try to remove the problematic content. Of course the flip side of Scalabrine editwarring to remove contentious, badly sourced BLP material is that others were edit warring to reinsert it. Scalabrine was blocked on 11 Feb for supposed socking to skirt 3RR. The blocking admin appears not to have noticed that the first edit of the supposed sock (]) is 24 hours after the last Scalabrine edit. Constitutional1787 ] and was indef-blocked as a supposed sock, in addition to Scalabrine being blocked temporarily for socking. No-one seems to have noticed that the subsequent SPI ] concluded Constitutional was NOT a sock! | |||
| ** SandyGeorgia's evidence at the SPI on 10 Feb declares that "Constitutional1787 is a new accounts, just created, that continued blanking the article when Scalabrine reached three reverts." This despite the fact that Scalabrine's last edit was 21.15 on 9 feb; Constitutional's first at 21.53 on 10 Feb | |||
| * Scalabrine is blocked 31 hours at 02.51 on 11 Feb. | |||
| Issue 4: OTRS ticket | |||
| * At 17.13 on 11 Feb an OTRS ticket is announced at ]. It does not take a genius - now that we know Scalabrine is CEPR-connected - to see how Scalabrine's unjustified block led to this, in an attempt to deal with the problematic content. | |||
| * SandyGeorgia's response to this probably speaks for itself in terms of the transparent attempt to further smear Weisbrot. | |||
| * Scalabrine makes no further article edits; he comments on the talk page, explaining somewhat the OTRS issues - without, it must be said, clarifying the COI. | |||
| * On 12 Feb ] turns up, editing the related article ], attempting to remove the problematic content. He doesn't declare COI other, but he is using his real name (there is a Kris Warner at CEPR). His edits do not overlap with Scalabrine's, who last edited that article in November. | |||
| * On 14 Feb ] turns up, making some comments at ] (Dean Baker being the other co-director of CEPR). Neither Kriswarner nor Scalabrine ever edited this article. | |||
| * Sandy re-opens the SPI on 12 Feb, adding Kriswarner and then Markweisbrot. Checkuser concludes (apparently) that they're editing from the same location, and as a result they're both blocked as socks. ''The fact that two of these are real names (one obviously so) of people from an organisation with an open OTRS ticket does not seem to have factored into the equation.'' Additionally, Scalabrine, the supposed sockmaster, is idef-ed for socking. (None of these 3 accounts, incidentally, received the relevant user talk block notices.) | |||
| * An unblock request from Scalabrine clarifying the IP issue and declaring "We are not interested in editing the site but it seems unfair and counter-productive to exclude us from at least providing information in the discussion, with our name and affiliation openly stated." is declined, on the basis that "you have enlisted to assist in both swaying WP:CONSENSUS, and emphasize WP:OWNership over an article. The only possible way that you would likely achieve an unblock, considering the above, is to never edit related articles again." This makes no sense to me in terms of the edit pattern noted above (accounts NOT supporting each other), as well as the clear recognition that discussion should be preferred to editing. The other "socks" remain blocked despite the new information. | |||
| '''Result | |||
| # '''highly problematic, badly sourced BLP-related content remains, with an open OTRS ticket | |||
| # '''An account cleared of being a sock remains indeffed as a sock | |||
| # '''2 accounts using real names of individuals remain indeffed as socks | |||
| # '''supposed sockmaster remains blocked | |||
| # '''the organisation/individuals who submitted the OTRS ticket cannot fully explain their concerns onwiki (and OTRS team does not seem to have done anything at all based on the ticket itself) | |||
| The COI issues remain, of course. But I submit that this smear campaign of SandyGeorgia's has gone far enough in how it is impacting on actual living persons; and that in addition SandyGeorgia's campaign of bullying and harassment has gone far enough. See for example her addition of a number of editors to ]; and her continuing personal attacks on me (even in my absence in the last week; cf ]). ''!Ya basta!'' ] <sup>]</sup> 09:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Additional parts of Sandy's smear campaign, which I forgot to note: | |||
| :# Re-inserting long-deleted content at ], listing personnel associated with it. The primary reason for doing so is to link VIO with CEPR. The content was long-deleted because organisation articles do not normally record past employees unless there is some particular significance or notability. There was a talk page discussion about this in March 2009, which sort of ran into the ground in a "no consensus" situation, with an RFC proposed but never done, and the content staying out until Sandy reinserted it without discussion on 9 Feb 2010. | |||
| :# Giving undue, unsourced prominence to the role of Weisbrot in ], with this 10 Feb edit . He was the founding President, yes, previously mentioned well down the article. Sandy promoted that to "founded in January 2007 by economist ]...", in the lead sentence. The source relied on is the same source previously used; and it is currently a dead link, so Sandy made this substantive change without even looking at the source relied on. Archive.org gives us , which gives a letter from the Board of Directors with Weisbrot 1 of 13 signatories, and no mention of Weisbrot's role beyond what was previously said "founding President". ] <sup>]</sup> 13:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Not sure what to make of this one, reading through it. Do you have a specific remedy in mind? ] <sup> ] </sup>~<small> ] </small> 13:13, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::At the moment, mainly (1) fixing the problems created (further discussion may of course lead to changes, but BLP caution should be applied, and contentious content removed until there is a consensus that is reasonably sourced and given appropriate weight). Also (2) unblocking the inappropriately blocked accounts, subject to warnings of how to behave appropriately when there are ] concerns, so that they can elaborate onwiki what their OTRS concerns were/are. However, in view the concertedness of Sandy's activities, and the vociferousness with which she has defended these BLP violations through edit warring and bullying, I think something ''more'' is required. At this point I know not what that might be. Perhaps simply (3) lots more people being aware of her intentions and behaviour would be a start. Inevitably, she will want people to put more eyes on ''my'' edits too - I'm fine with that. I've said all along in the recent Venezuela-related disputes that "more eyes are needed". ] <sup>]</sup> 13:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm a bit confused also. I just reviewed two of the articles, but I got confused as they have some of the most excruciatingly constructed sentences I've ever had the privilege of reading! However, that's a content issue. I also read , but I'll be honest and this just seems to be Sandy's considered opinion. Without specific examples of the issue at that point, I'm not sure what could have been expected of Sandy? I'm not familiar with the conflict and have only reviewed the examples you've given, but I can't really see a smear campaign from Sandy, though it is evident that she doesn't like Weisbrot, but that's not actually a crime. | |||
| ::The only actionable thing I can see here is that two editors were blocked as socks when it's quite possible that they were from the same organization. But I'm afraid here too there is an issue, because if they are who their usernames and location suggests, there is a clear conflict of interest for them to be editing this article. | |||
| ::I am uncertain what is required of admins here... I can't see an ongoing edit war and I don't see any gross incivility or disruption. This looks like a content dispute. - ] (formerly ]) <sup>]</sup> 13:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::1) I've made the blocked "socks" issue perfectly clear. Unblocking should be subject to warnings about appropriate COI behaviour. Is the fact that there is an open OTRS ticket compeletely irrelevant? Do we have a policy of blocking people trying to explain why there are serious problems with articles about them and their organisations, without a history of actual ''problems'' being shown? Try and look at it from ''their'' point of view, and imagine it's you and your organisation being accused of being linked to a government that your home country considers a virtual enemy. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{ec}}Well... have the accounts been confirmed to operate as individual people via that OTRS ticket, and is ] really Mark Weisbrot? How can we be certain - is there some independent evidence or does the OTRS ticket confirm his identity? If so then I think we probably should unblock that account, but make sure that they are aware that they should restrict their commentary to commenting only on the article text and they should not edit the article. That's probably not an issue if they are who they say they are as is the only edit to their page they've made, and that's to the talk page where they make it clear they've not edited the article. | |||
| ::::I'd like to note that I went through the entirety of Sandy's comments on ] and the only even ''slight'' claim you might have to a personal attack was when she said "Those are interesting conclusions; from what planet did they come?" Aside from that barely incivil comment, Sandy has admirably kept on the topic itself - as have you Rd232 - but she's never made things personal. I think that she's got as forceful a personality as myself and a similar arguing style, which is relentless and forthright, which can definitely cause upsets unnecessarily. However, I don't see one actionable personal attack, nor do I see that she injects her dislike of yourself into her commentary on that talk page. If anything, I see that at one point you apologised for something and she quickly accepted this. I just don't see a problem Rd, sorry. - ] (formerly ]) <sup>]</sup> 13:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Well she is fairly subtle about it; it's not so much hysterical swearing as a grinding, constant background hum of bad faith accusations. Things like "NYT and USA Today are good, unless the tendentious editors scream. " (from ]). I can find lots more examples if I'm willing to put in hours I don't have, but I'm far more interested in somebody waking up and smelling the malicious editing coffee. Nobody of 100k+ edits can do everything outlined above in good faith. Combine that with the harassment campaign noted (perhaps insufficiently explained; notes were for myself) at ], and you have an editor who is willing and able to bully other editors into submission in the service of her goal of perpetuating a real-world political crusade to discredit anyone who comments on Venezuela and does not meet with her approval. That discrediting crusade, as the SPI shows, covers Misplaced Pages editors she disagrees with as well. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::There are some fairly clear statements from her recently at ]. ] <sup>]</sup> 15:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::SG is not operating in a vacuum; having followed this, I notice lots of other regular editors involved, and quite a few seem supportive of SG's position. Therefore I don't see this an SG issue, but a normal and proper Misplaced Pages process to find the proper balance point in a contentious political issue. I don't see room for admin intervention at the moment. ] (]) 13:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Others may have supported her, but it is her who is operating a campaign seeking to smear individuals whose views and activities she approves of by virtue of linking them to a foreign government. She has done so based on bad sources, misrepresenting sources, and using synthesis, and edit warred to support that. She is too experienced to have done all this - elaborated above - in error. These edits are, to be blunt, malicious. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Rd, calling a fellow editor (or their edits) "malicious" requires a very good proof. Can you provide a diff to such behavior? None of the material you provide above comes close to it, IMO. ] (]) 14:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Between her campaign harassing me (]) and her misleading edits noted above (an editor of her experience could not make this many mistakes in good faith), I consider it proven. If you know her not from Adam - or know her only from other topics, where she may be angelic for all I know, this may be hard to accept. Take another look in detail at what I laid out above, and ask yourself if a 100k+ editor can get all that wrong in good faith. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I do care a lot about proper sourcing and BLP, and that's my focus. Her contributions to the project add an extra burden of proof for any allegations of malfeasance. In the your set of diffs, I find your characterization of ] as a "poor source" troubling. ] (]) 14:51, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::What I said right up this thread was "The first is USA Today, claiming (without explanation or detail) that Weisbrot "has supported Chavez's policies." Possibly WP:BLP demands better than a vague passing remark in a short news piece to stamp someone as a supporter of someone the US more or less considers an enemy, but let's leave that to one side." ] <sup>]</sup> 15:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Completely uninvolved observer checking in here: I think the issue that needs to be rectified is the "sock" drawer rather than the editing by SG. FWiW ] (]) 13:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC). | |||
| *Did you all check the Checkuser request here: ]. Shes accusing me, Rd232, Off2Riorob and further down, JRSP and John Z of being socks of each other and CEPR.net editors. Shes got absolutely no evidence. I haven't even edited any of the articles, just talk pages. Off2Rio arrived to investigate the OTRS complain and she accuses him of "sundenly" appearing. Do you know what we all have in common? At some point one or the other disagreed with Sandy about something related to the Venezuela issue and sundenly we're all Socks. Shes claiming to be cleaning up Venezuela related articles, and I'm the first to admit they haven't always been examples of NPOV, but shes adding POV material of her own. And if you try to point it out, you get added to the Sock list. Its ridiculous. ] (]) 13:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{ec}} | |||
| :*Outside eyes at ] would be welcome. I share some of Rd232's concerns about sourcing, and have explained there; see ] and sections following. | |||
| :*Basically, Weisbrot seems to be a well-respected US economist and columnist. He regularly contributes to the New York Times, and is widely quoted as an expert, on a whole range of topics and countries. | |||
| :*About a quarter of all google news articles mentioning Weisbrot's name also mention Venzuela in one way or another (see: ]). So Venezuela is evidently a major part of his work, while not representing the majority of his work, and he has been described as broadly sympathetic to Chavez and Venezuela in the New York Times. | |||
| :*The matter of potential concern is that there has been a clear effort to make his BLP mainly about his views on Chavez. This would be okay if his views had somehow caused widespread controversy, and his reputation had suffered as a result. But I have so far failed to find, and have not been shown, any sources to indicate that there is any controversy surrounding Weisbrot's views on Chavez. As far as I can tell, he is just a well-respected liberal commentator whose comments are sought by a wide range of top class sources (e.g. ). I gather the OTRS complaint makes broadly the same point. Some of the sources used about the Venezuela issue are distinctly not top drawer: ], , ], and ]. | |||
| :*On the blocks: I do not think it is a good idea to block editors from the subject's research organisation from contributing, at least to the talk page. Clearly, COIs have to be acknowledged, and there should be no need for socking, but it is ''very'' poor public relations for Misplaced Pages to have questionable BLPs and then block BLP subjects (or their representatives) when they come to complain about our work. Given all the recent discussions about BLPs an OTRS complaint should be greeted with a clear presumption in favour of the BLP subject and meticulous scrutiny and article rebuilding afterwards. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 13:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| This seems like a content dispute which requires no administrative action. –''']''' | ] 14:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :It isn't a mere content dispute. More evidence of Sandy's continuation of her malicious smear campaign: reinsertion of disputed BLP-related content, without discussion never mind consensus: A nice example of her serial evasiveness of difficult questions pops up too: adds COI tag which is ludicrous since no editing of the article by any COI accounts has taken place; on this questioning of relevance of the tag, says merely "I'm not the author of Wiki's COI tag; feel free to fix it yourself if you think it's poorly worded.". This is not good faith debate. ] <sup>]</sup> 15:23, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Starting Checkuser procedures against everyone that disagrees with her and getting the subject of a BLP blocked cannot be considered to fall within the realm of content disputes. ] (]) 14:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::If that is the case, then the SPI clerks will handle it eventually. No need for this big drama on ANI. Oh, and if anyone feels that any blocks I made in relation to this incident were unwarranted or unnecessary, feel free to overturn them without asking. '''<font color="navy">]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">]</font>)'' 15:03, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * COI is ]. It only becomes a worry (and may be cited as such) when edits by someone with a COI become unencyclopedic or they stray beyond policy bounds such as edit warring or ]. ] (]) 15:02, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Additional: Sandy today creates ], an economist who almost certainly fails ], but has debated Venezuela economic issues with ]. To reduce the risk of deletion, she puffs him by misrepresenting the man's own page: 3 published articles is not "numerous"; 8 media interviews is not "numerous". This is clearly intended to ensure that if the debates with Rodriguez are removed from the Weisbrot page as UNDUE, they have a home on Misplaced Pages. ] <sup>]</sup> 15:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Additional: . ] <sup>]</sup> 15:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ===The block of ]=== | |||
| I think we probably need to look into the block of Mark Weisbrot. It's bad form to have blocked him if we can confirm he is who he says he is. Is his account identity confirmed? I think we had better start from here. - ] (formerly ]) <sup>]</sup> 14:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : I think the sock drawer needs to be identified and unraveled before we can go much further. It's difficult to take any of these complaints at face value until we know who is socking. Blocking of the CEPR people aside, we're still staring at a series of accounts and IP addresses that all have startlingly similar patterns of editing. --] ] 15:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: This just shows how much you bothered to actually inform yourself of the situation. The "series of IPs" are one and the same user: Me, as I've said more than once on the checkuser page. The others are long established users. There is no sock drawer. Sandy is just trying to discredit people who disagree with her, thats the whole point of that Checkuser charade. I wanted that RFCU thrown out on principle since she didn't provide any evidence whatsoever, but now I actually want to see it go throu. And when the result comes, and it confirms that none of us are socks of each other, then what exaclty will happen to Sandy? I can answer that myself: Absolutely nothing. She used RFCU for her owns purpuses, to discredit opposition, which is exactly the opposite of what RFCU is intended for, but nothing will come of it. ] (]) 15:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Another inconsistent understanding of Wiki; what would you like to see happen to me for requesting a checkuser with ample evidence? We have, if not sockpuppetry, evidence of coordinated editing and meatpuppetry, with striking similarities between the editors, and some editors suddenly disappearing while others appear. Asking for a Checkuser is not a crime; it's business. If I'm wrong, you're happy, you're all exonerated, and we can all go about editing. Being checkusered is not a big deal if you're innocent; I've welcomed the times it has happened to me. Of course, I'll go about editing under the onslaught of personal attacks, failures to AGF, and misrepresentations of my edits to which I've been subjected by multiple editors now, but I'm tough :) ] (]) 16:05, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::: There is no evidence of anything, you saying it dosnt make it so. There is no coordination, no shared Ips, no nothing. I don't know Rd232 and never had contact with him other than to inform him that you included him in your little RFCU charede (wich you dindt have the decency to do yourself), the same goes for all the other users. All we ever had in common was that we disagreed with you, and a couple of days later we're all lumped toguether in your baseless accusations. As I've repeatedly told you before, if you enjoy being falselu accused thats "your" problem. You expect me to AGF after you started a bad faith RFCU against me? wow! just wow! ] (]) 18:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::: (ec) I know they are "you", what is your point, exactly? CheckUser is for discovering abusive use of multiple accounts and IP addresses to avoid scrutiny or create the appearance of support, and there is plenty of evidence of that. All one has to do is compare a list of your contributions against that of any of the other named editors. An editor might be warned for using RFCU spuriously, but the rare times I've seen Sandy use it, there has been cause. If the CheckUsers decide there is not sufficient evidence to investigate, it will be closed. --] ] 16:09, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::: My point, exactly, is that this is a spurrious, bad faithed request. There is absolutely no evidence of anything. All I have in common with the other users is that at some point I disagreed with SandyGeorgia. Thats it. She didnt start taht RFCU to get to the bottom of anything, she did it to discredit, tire, and wear down anybody who disagreed with her on any Chavez related articles. And that is not what RFCU is for. But of course arguing with you is not gona be of much use, shes obviously your friend and you came here with your mind made up. ] (]) 18:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : Rd232 continues misrepresenting in his campaign against me, frequently accompanied by personal attacks and failure to AGF; TLDR. On the Weisbrot issue, I don't believe the block was heavy handed, as we have long term COI, sock and meatpuppetry going on there, and we need to get to the bottom of it. It wasn't just a sudden thing; those articles have all been created by CEPR symathizers, employees, socks, or whatever they are, and now they are being aided by pro-Chavez admins in censoring the articles. It would be good to have Weisbrot's input into his article (for example, no one has written anything about him and other Latin American countries, and I'm not familiar with his work there), but given the long-term abuse already documented, he could provide that feedback on any one of the sock talk pages, even if blocked. It remains unclear why so many pro-Chavez editors are suddenly so invested in covering Weisbrot's connections to Chavez; is there a law being broken or something that is going over my head? I can't understand why this molehill has become such a mountain, and why it is so important to remove his well-sourced connections to Chavez from the article. ] (]) 15:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: Oh this is good. His campaign agaisnt you??? He had stopped editing, untill you dragged him into the RFCU mess (and you really expect AGF after that? its not an unlimited credit card), along with me and others. ] (]) 15:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Yes, well. Besides sorting the Weisbrot block and sock drawer, getting to the bottom of the serious whitewashing across all Venezuela/Chavez articles should be another big priority here. We have essentially no Venezuelan articles that aren't POV, looking like Chavez propaganda, and ownership on all those articles. I'm the only editor attempting to neutralize them, and one person can't do it all. ] (]) 16:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :*This is exactly the problem, User SandyGeorgia has a very strong anti Chavez POV and is on a campaign to have any article associated with Chavez reflect her POV, any editor that is at any other position is a sock, or has a coi or some other wiki lawyering. The whole sock drawer story is all part of her campaign that look at all these socks and all these articles are pro Chavez and it all adds weight to her campaign that she needs to neutralize all these articles so they reflect her very strong anti chavez pov, I am afraid that in user SandyGeorgia's case this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. ] (]) 16:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *:: Right, well, more unsubstantiated attacks and bad faith assumptions from an admin; seems to be my lot :) By all means, let's look at my editing in relation to y'all :) It's most troubling that we have so many admins who don't actually seem to have read or understood ]. Anyway, based on something Rd232 just posted, I think I see now what this is about. and that might be the urgency behind removing well sourced text. ] (]) 16:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *::::That precise concern was discussed at ] as long ago as 27 Jan, when I said " You must understand that VIO (Venezuela Information Office) is a registered agent of the Venezuelan government, and that associating Weisbrot with them directly serves to discredit him. The source doesn't permit any actual conclusion to be drawn on the nature of the relationship between VIO and CEPR - it could easily be merely information exchange; or it could be a financial relationship. The reader is left to read between the lines, and when Weisbrot's signing of a single letter is thrown in (WP:UNDUE much? as John Z notes), it's either intending to insinuate or unintentionally leaving dangerous ambiguity that Weisbrot is a paid agent, indirectly, of the Venezuelan government." Sandy replied to this serious BLP concern with "Those are interesting conclusions; from what planet did they come? There's nothing like that in the very neutral text. I have a hard time imagining how you came up with that scenario." The discussion then trailed off, largely - I think - because Sandy then accepted the removal of that text from ], seemingly because of accepting the validity of these concerns. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *::::: Ah, well now I see where you were heading with all of this; perhaps if you weren't so sarcastic and attacking in all of your posts, that message would have come through sooner. At any rate, Wiki is not censored, and we report what reliable sources say. If that leads some to conclude that Weisbrot is acting as an agent of a foreign government, I don't think Wiki can be responsible for what very reliable sources say. ] (]) 16:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::: There is nothing attacking or dismissive in the quoted post making this important point; yet you dismissed it without substantive response. Your dismissive response here, implicitly claiming sarcasm as a reason for not getting the point, is typical of the way in which you constantly misrepresent and evade. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Clarification note: Off2riorob is not an admin. --] <small>(])</small> 16:26, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::*User SandyGeorgia has such a strong anti Chavez POV and has herself declared that she is on some kind of campaign to ''neutralize'' a whole bunch of articles to reflect her POV that it would be better if she did not edit articles related to him. ] (]) 16:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::* Sir, your jabs are contributing precisely nothing to this conversation. It should be our goal to neutralize articles that display a POV; that does not mean we're trying to insert our own POV. But I suspect you know that and are just trying to stir up trouble. Please disengage from this thread if you have nothing of value to add. --] ] 16:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::* They are not jabs, they are the exact issues as I have found them to be true, my comments are constructive, User SandyGeorgia has conveyed these opinions and I am stating nothing that is not correct and as I have been involved at more than one location with this User, I will add my comments as I see them, you may not like them but they are indisputable and totally correct.] (]) 16:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::* Eliminating the only Spanish-speaking editor apparently on Wiki and knowledgeable of Venezuelan history and politics from Chavez/Venezuela articles would be quite a coup for the pillars upon which Wiki is based, such as ] and ] :) I will say that standing up to all of you is time-consuming, but I suspect you'll gain more sympathy if you actually look at my edits in relation to policy, demonstrate an understanding of policy, stop misrepresenting my edits, and hold off on the personal attacks and bad faith assumptions. Separately, I would note that something should be done about the extreme ] and ] that has contributed to the whitewashing of every Chavez/Venezuela and now CEPR-related article on Wiki. ] (]) 16:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::* There it is again, your very strongly held negative POV that is verging on a conspiracy theory regarding chavez and CEPR, and more wiki lawyering, claims that ''something needs to be done'' about all these articles to save the world from this whitewashing of wikipedia articles. Sorry SandyGeorgia but IMO you should take a step back from editing articles related to Chavez, at least for a while. ] (]) 17:19, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::* There's something to be said about the corp group of editors who agree with you, and the number of uninvolved editors who don't :) But it would be quite a ] coup if y'all could eliminate little ole me from Chavez/Venezuela/CEPR articles. Rio/Rob, the gentleman doth protest too much. ] (]) 17:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::* The gentleman doth protest to much, what rubbish, more of youR obsessive conspiracy theories. ] (]) 17:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::And there she goes playing the martyr - another favourite Sandy tactic. Anybody actually bothering to use Wikidashboard will see that on rather a lot of Venezuela articles, it is actually Sandy who leads in number of edits. eg Also instructive is looking at users' top 20 edited pages: v . I have 2 Ve pages in the top 20 (3 if you count RSN which is there because of one single enormous Venezuela-related hooha) - both talk pages. Combined Ve edits in the top 20: 263 (=1.7% of total). Sandy has both Chavez and Talk:Chavez in top 20, totalling 1800 edits (also 1.7% of total). Since Sandy inter alia claims that I don't create content, . ] <sup>]</sup> 17:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::: Another personal attack; and please read ] and consult anyone about my famously inefficient editing style :) Now, as to the way we ''really'' examine articles, an in-depth look at all of the POV Chavez articles will reveal that ], ] and ] contributed to ''two editors only'' POVing every Venezuela/Chavez article on Wiki in the several years I stopped following them, and now we see same on CEPR/Weisbrot, where CEPR.net and Venezuelanalysis.com are frequently used to present one-sided articles. And now it's more than one Spanish-speaking editor can clean up; yes, my edits on these articles have been high since I observed what was happening. ] (]) 17:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: You're very good at making unsupported claims. You do it ''a lot''. I must avoid the temptation to respond every time; but it does mean the constant unsupported claims accumulate. Like the claim that CEPR is "frequently" used for anything other than the CEPR articles. Or the claim you've made several times that there is any connection between CEPR and Venezuelanalysis other than you hating both of them. ] <sup>]</sup> 19:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: Famously inefficient or not, the substantive point about the proportion of Venezuela edits remains: both of us 1.7% going by the top 20 edited pages, which sadly is all wikidashboard provides (anyone know a better tool?). Ooh, found a , which with a bit of Excel calculation gives me Rd232 14% venezuela-related edits (in top 100); SandyGeorgia 21%. This permits some conclusions about relative involvement and ]ership. ] <sup>]</sup> 19:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| See continuation at ]. ] (]) 17:02, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| === Separate admin question === | |||
| RegentsPark, thanks for pointing out that Off2riorob is not an admin; that mitigates part of my question. His persistent misrepresentations of my editing notwithstanding, Rd232's involvement here is a concern. Several of the editors participating here have evidenced a lack of understanding of ], ] and ]. Rd232 has frequently personally attacked me, failed to AGF, failed to engage in meaningful attempts to resolve disputes with me via either ignoring or removing my good faith atttempts at discussion, refusing to discuss because he's "going on WikiBreak", or ignoring direct questions put to him, and we've seen all of these editors removing text well sourced to ''The New York Times'', ''USA Today'' and other AP sources, removing POV tags, edit warring, ignoring consensus, and claiming BLP vios where none existed, yet engaging in egregious BLP vios. | |||
| My question is-- and since I'm not an admin, I make an assumption-- is it not time to formally establish that Rd232 and John Z should not use admin tools on any Chavez/Venezuela/CEPR-related articles? ] | |||
| I need to check out of my hotel soon, and don't know when I'll be able to resurface; hopefully I won't find more attacks on me when I do :) ] (]) 16:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *This is one of User SandyGeorgia's ''modus operandi'' wikilayering and accusations of being attacked, there are no attacks here, just people that have issues with your stated editing objectives. ] (]) 17:11, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ** Considering your (mis)understanding of several Wiki policies, I'm relieved to know you're not an admin. ] (]) 17:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ***Well, actually the fact that you weren't aware or were unable to discover this simple point says more about you than it does me. ] (]) 17:26, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| **** Perhaps I wasn't interested enough :) Or too busy chasing my tail across all of the policy violations across numerous articles ... But while we're on the subject, could you explain why you-- a prolific contributor at ], didn't engage when ] was raised at that noticeboard-- and chose to do so much later, after it was all settled? ] (]) 17:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *****Do you see some conspiracy in this deviousness? Everyone is a Chavez spy out to whitewash all the articles related to him and you are the wikipedia Saviour that is going to save the world from this conspiracy, hello? ] (]) 17:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *I would certainly consider Rd232 an involved administrator for this topic area, but I trust that he himself knows that and will refrain from using the admin tools. ] is not an administrator. '''<font color="navy">]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">]</font>)'' 17:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :* I'm obtuse (x 2); I should pay more attention to the admin corp :) Anyway, that gives me some reassurance about the lack of understanding of policy that has been evidenced across all of these articles, and Rd232 remains the only admin concern. ] (]) 17:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| (ecx4) | |||
| 1) I've never used tools where I'm involved - that's Admin 101. Thanks for asking! ] is not an admin (doesn't even have ]). | |||
| 2) I have not failed ]. I assumed good faith for a long, long time. Since you ask, the point where AGF (which is an ], not a ] or a collective suicide pact) crumbled for me (having been weakened previously) was the Thor Halvorssen incident, which I eventually concluded was the most obvious part of a campaign to smear me. Even after that, I tried to keep my concerns to myself, hoping to talk it out. Never happened - because you constantly evaded questions, sought to shut down dispute resolution, constantly claimed tendentiousness (is that not breaching AGF? what exactly is tendentiousness?) and made COI insinuations, and constantly brought up old issues (it's hard to convey just how constantly; cf . ). (eg "but not feasible with so many editors spreading only these sources across so many articles (Venezuela Information Office?)") In response to this I elaborated my involvement with Venezuela articles (somewhat pathetically, really, I should have known she wouldn't dignify it with a response) how ridiculous that is. | |||
| 2a) Quoting Sandy, just before I started giving up on AGF for her: "You were quick to cry "BLP violation" on Weisbrot when there was none, yet you saw no problem on Halvorssen and don't seem to see a problem on Chavez, which is contradictory editing and appears tendentious. You are quick to revert accurate changes to inaccurately sourced text (four times, without checking the sources yourself, on the Coup article, even though *everyone* who has dos dedos frente a la cara knows that reliable sources do not say Chavez was illegally detained), but slow to remove a simple POV heading from a short article, that would have taken you one second, because you were editing that section anyway. Your method of editing is revert, revert, revert anything that isn't pro-Chavez, but you rarely seem to build content or neutralize content. In other words, what I see is an editor showing all the signs of tendentious editing. Your bite-iness and ownership tendencies chase off other editors, because your edits support JRSP's POV, so it's usually two against one. Now, JRSP clearly has a POV, but he's not hard to work with; when policy is pointed out to him, or sources are supplied, he backs off and doesn't edit war to enforce his POV; he does discuss, is not rude, and I've collaborated with him successfully on several articles, where between the two of us, we were able to respect each other's work and balance articles. You, on the other hand, have edit warred across almost every article where I've observed your work, have practically forum shopped when you didn't get the answers you want, harrassed with me the "libel" statement, don't seem particularly aware of policy or guideline or willing to read sources, and are quite a bit ruder than JRSP (undue much? is a sarcastic edit summary, and not conducive to collaborative editing, but that's your style ... noting that JRSP has a POV, but doesn't edit like that). In other words, I see an editor who edits Venezuelan content not to build articles, but to impose a specific point of view ... classic WP:TEND. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:56, 28 January 2010 (UTC)" | |||
| :In quoting Sandy here I unfortunately repeat another misrepresentation ("revert accurate changes to inaccurately sourced text"), the details of which are at the top of ] - for those who have far more interest in this than can possibly be good for their health. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| 2b) For those who care, the Thor Halvorssen incident played out like this. i) At ] I move a paragraph from one place to another. In response, Sandy makes no edit, nor discusses on talk (merely posting a reference to ]), and at BLPN declares "Rd232 again (see Mark Weisbrot thread above). In this edit, Rd232 repeats selective info from Thor Halvorssen Hellum, (Sr. vs. Jr.) in a BLP that now reads as an attempt to smear Thor Jr. with allegations about his father, Thor Sr., although the Thor Sr. article is already linked and info about Thor Sr. belongs in and can be explored in more detail in his article." Despite repeated requests on her talk page and at BLPN and elsewhere (eg RSN), Sandy never explains the alleged "smear", but repeatedly brings up the issue later (eg at ] ). Whatever it was was apparently fixed by another editor (Sandy declined to fix the "smear" herself - an interesting approach to handling alleged ] problems) Sandy then keeps bringing it up as a stick to beat me with, still not explaining the supposed problem: , in unrelated thread, 31 Jan , 2 Feb. The explanation (apart from being wildly implausible) in typically misrepresentative fashion draws on a comment I made the day after the edits were made which she later declared had fixed the problem. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: Another TLDR misrepresentation, taking over in a separate thread. I've got to check out of my hotel; please don't let me interfere with the mischaracterizations of my edits. ] (]) 17:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::: I presume you will come back when you have time and address the unsupported claims of misrepresentation. Because I would totally expect you to just never bother coming back to it and hope that everyone around forgets. This is one of your various tactics (I should number them for convenience, perhaps) - simply not responding to issues you have no answer for. Which is part of the pattern demonstrated above! I'll perfectly well allow that you can't respond now; but so very frequently you simply do not respond at all to issues you have no answer for. Feel free to make an exception here, when you have the time. ] <sup>]</sup> 19:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ===Inappropriate use of rollback by Rd232=== | |||
| I am wondering if follow the guidelines of ]. --] (]) 17:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes it would. But there is no need to come running here first. Could you please discuss this with him on a talk page somewhere? '''<font color="navy">]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">]</font>)'' 18:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: Talking with him doesn't usually work; he claims BLP vios where none exist, and uses that to revert well sourced edits. Rd232 is now edit warring at ] and ] (maybe others). In the ] egregious BLP vio, he's already demonstrated a less-than-firm grasp on BLP, and doesn't respond to consensus on these articles. Additionally, very well sourced text (New York Times and USA Today) has now disappeared from ], in spite of no consensus to remove that text. ] is everywhere here. ] (]) 18:09, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, let's compare notes on the handling of Rosales and the handling of the other BLP issues. i) Did I declare contentious claims as fact, as you did? No - it was written as "X reported that Y claimed Z", not "Z". ii) did I edit war to include the material when it was challenged, as you have repeatedly done? no. iii) did I seek to shut down debate/DR on the issue, as you have done? no, I sought it out by posting at BLPN. iv) did I bang on about your misrepresentations (]) at every opportunity, regardless of relevance, as a stick to try and win unrelated arguments? no. Finally, as to the egregiousness of reporting the Rosales claim (which incidentally I avoid repeating here - you were so concerned about the egregiousness that you repeated it at RSN...), you claimed at ] not to able to find any reliable mentions; you can't have looked very hard because in seconds I found the claims were reported by the Miami Herald; ('']''), and, er, that bastion of Chavismo, '']'' . The egregiousness of the text should also be contextualised by noting that the claim lived unchallenged from October to January, and that it was added to the German Misplaced Pages entry in September (not by me - I pop by occasionally but hardly ever edit) and remains there to this day. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Both the New York Times source and the USA Today source, and the information cited to them, are still in the article; they are refs and . The wording implemented is one that you when I proposed it to you earlier today; you just thought that the "other camp" would object to it. That has not happened. Otherwise, what I have taken out is a bunch of primary sources, mostly from Weisbrot's website, a point that was discussed as well: In an article as contentious as this one, it is best to stick to mainstream secondary sources, such as the NYT and USA Today, as much as possible. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 19:11, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I did in fact immediately afterwards - despite it being so obviously unsuitable. If you want to discuss it further, the talk place is the place to do it. If you think I'm going to be unreasonable, that's what dispute resolution is for. (If there is one ''really'' consistent pattern in these conflicts, it is that I am always willing to talk more and to pursue dispute resolution, whilst others - let's identify them as those who falsely label me "pro-Chavez" - generally are remarkably eager to close down debates, end discussion, walk away from discussion, undermine content dispute resolution by complaining at length about unrelated alleged behaviour and content issues, etc. ] <sup>]</sup> 19:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| === Success of Wiki pillars === | |||
| Wiki is censored, and cleansed, ] and ] are thrown under the train, and Wiki is censored. ] is now "neutral" according to someone, but not Wiki policy. for whom he writes ] (]) 18:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *See the article talk page. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 18:51, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *SandyGeorgia had , last month, the information that Weisbrot {{quotation|"has written for and been interviewed by online magazines such as SocialistViewpoint,<ref name="Labor Day 2003: Nothing to Celebrate">{{Cite web|url=http://www.socialistviewpoint.org/oct_03/oct_03.html |title=Labor Day 2003: Nothing to Celebrate|accessdate=2009-07-29}}</ref> Solidarity, a "an independent socialist organization",<ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.solidarity-us.org/about |title=About Solidarity| publisher=Solidarity National Office|accessdate=January 24, 2010}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.solidarity-us.org/international/venezuela/weisbrot |title=Suzi Weissman interviews Mark Weisbrot|publisher=Solidarity National Office |accessdate=January 24, 2010}}</ref> and ].<ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.alternet.org/story/16678/labor_day_2003%3A_nothing_to_celebrate/|title=Labor Day 2003: Nothing to celebrate|publisher=alternet.org|date= August 28, 2003|accessdate= January 24, 2010}}</ref>"}} | |||
| *I think the subject could be forgiven if they felt here that Misplaced Pages was trying to tar them with the socialist brush. The evidence that Weisbrot writes for SocialistViewpoint and Alternet boiled down to the presence of the same article by Weisbrot on both sites: "Labor Day 2003: Nothing to Celebrate". According to , this was published through Knight-Ridder/Tribune Information Services and appeared in the San-Bernardino Sun, August 30, 2003, as well as the ] (Fort Lauderdale, FL) on September 1, 2003. It is still present on the Sun Sentinel website today: (albeit with a different headline). So Weisbrot wrote for a syndicated news service, and these websites picked the article up from the news service. Now the evidence for "Solidarity": The on the socialist Solidarity site begins "Suzi Weissman: And Welcome back to BTS". It did not originate on the Solidarity site either but is a transcript of an episode of radio show on ] radio. | |||
| *That is why I removed the information that Weisbrot "has written for and been interviewed by online magazines such as SocialistViewpoint, Solidarity, "an independent socialist organization", and ]." I think that was the right thing to do, especially given that the subject had complained of unfair coverage. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 20:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : One of the many irritating things about ANI is the propensity for someone to shut down a thread just after one of the main participants has stated s/he won't be available for a bit. So, I'll post my apology to JN ] (]) 01:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: This thread was archived, then unarchived, so I've moved the above post to the correct section. Additionally, the issue of organizations for whom Weisbrot writes has now been cleared up on article talk (after another good dose of bad faith rants were aimed at me for implementing a consensus change to the article about the organizations for whom Weisbrot writes -- thanks JN for reviewing old threads and clearing that up). ] (]) 16:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| === Uninvolved administrator viewpoint === | |||
| This needs to get toned down and a liberal dose of AGF applied to all parties, about everyone not already confirmed by CU to be a sock. SandyGeorgia smelled socks, asked for SPI/CU, got same, which found some sockpuppetry. There's no sign so far that the other long term editors/admins involved are involved. | |||
| This also is apparently a content weighting issue, which would seem (absent a clear policy violation by either side) to be an Article / Topic RFC problem rather than ANI. | |||
| Please take the rhetoric down a few notches, and consider what a more appropriate venue might be to continue this away from ANI. ] (]) 21:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :The SPI ] cleared one editor of socking (]); for some reason this editor remains indeffed. The SPI concluded that one editor (]) had created two socks, ] and ] - an excellent example of naive use of checkuser. What kind of sockmaster creates two aliases using the real names of people associated with the relevant articles (hence COI issues), and uses those socks ''entirely'' independently of each other and of the "sockmaster"? It does not take a long look at the edit histories to divine 3 people in the same location. (Given that the accounts have not supported each other in any way, claims of meatpuppetry are so far equally off base - though this would need to be monitored in future.) ] managed to get unblocked, the situation being acknowledged; the other "sock" and supposed "sockmaster" remain blocked. Does anyone feel like, at some convenient time, unblocking these 3 accounts? One exonerated of being a sock by CU, one clearly not a sockmaster, one clearly not a sock and also the author of an OTRS ticket. Anyone? ] <sup>]</sup> 00:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| As for the other issues - it's true these cannot really be resolved here. It would need at least an ] and probably an arbcase to deal with Sandy's behaviour. I have neither the time nor the stomach for that, so if the OTRS issues are seemingly being addressed - unblocking of the related accounts would help, with whatever dire ] warnings may be required - then I'd be happy to fade back into semi-retirement. ] <sup>]</sup> 00:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| === An involved editor view=== | |||
| Sorry I don't know if I can write here. But I would like to say that I have been surfing and trying to edit pages concerning Venezuela. The situation is simple: anybody a bit objective can see that Venezuela pages are incredibly POV. Why is it so? Mostly because of the actions of a few editors like Rd232. And when anybody tries to resist this, Rd232 reacts by attacks like this one. This is just how it is and it works very well for him. ] (]) 22:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Not helpful. Most of our interaction is at ], and I leave it as an exercise for the disinterested reader to judge who is attacking who there. ] <sup>]</sup> 23:49, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| === Motion to close=== | |||
| This isn't really going anywhere, is it? Especially now the ongoing sock issue has been split into a separate thread (due to this thread's temporary closure), it might as well be put out of its misery. The issues are too complex to handle here. ] <sup>]</sup> 09:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :If it's too complex for ANI, then the next step would be ArbCom. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 13:39, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Unfortunately I ''really'' don't have time for such a next step. It's a timesink in which I could probably produce an entire paper! ] <sup>]</sup> 13:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, the next step would be a content and/or user RFC. ANI is not dispute resolution. ] (]) 15:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Actually, the ''first'' step is one Rd232 has avoided, which is user talk. He has attacked me endlessly across multiple noticeboards and on my talk page, but removed my conciliatory posts from his talk page and refused to discuss items with me, saying he's going on a Wikibreak, then constantly re-appearing and not dropping issues. Rd232 has never engaged the first step in dispute resolution, which is AGF and discuss with me, not rant at me. His refusal to discuss, continue attacking, and then ask me not to discuss because he's going on break doesn't help. If he is going to continue these attacks on me across multiple noticeboards, at least he should decide if he is or isn't retiring. ] (]) 16:40, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::If it's too complex for ANI, going to an RFC isn't going to get us anywhere either. I'm not fond of process for process' sake. — <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I agree-- RFC/U is broken for situations this complex, but a good first step might be for some admin to get Off2riorob and Rd232 to stop the personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith, and engage in the first and usually most productive use of DR, which is editor talk pages. The personal attacks are turning into a separate matter that probably do warrant admin attention. Other than that, I would suggest archiving this thread again, and someone doing something about the personal attacks and onslaught I've been enduring quietly for a month. ] (]) 19:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Request from Chuck Marean for review of ban == | |||
| Banned user {{user1|Chuck Marean}} has asked for the following to be copied from his talk page: | |||
| <blockquote>Please move this appeal to ANI for consideration. I understand why I was community banned and I’ll do constructive edits instead. My community ban was because I did some major edits without a consensus and sufficient preparation. For example, I reworded a Current Events blurb to say the victims of the Madoff investment fraud had not received a government bailout (when the references merely stated they had lost a lot of money). I’ve been thinking of ways to find consensus, such as working in my user space and getting my edits reviewed, looking at edit histories to try to find out who wrote what I want to edit, mentioning the edit idea on the article’s talk page, and putting forth more effort when reading sources and writing. I apologize for editing Current Events without knowing for certain I had a consensus. Rather than asking, I supposed everyone would agree with my edit. I believe it is uncivil to call people disruptive or vandals or uncivil or stupid or not neutral or bad editors, and so forth, although I can understand a writer being upset when someone else edits or corrects his writing. So, to improve my editing, I could ask if I have a consensus and I could read the policies I haven’t read and I could find and read a book on how to find sources and so forth. I think my community ban is no longer needed, as I’ve just explained. '']'' 08:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)</blockquote> | |||
| For reference, the most recent AN/I discussion seems to be ]. ] (]) 10:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :This is the guy who thought it was a news item that the ] existed. Also, the issue with Madoff was nothing to do with bailouts - the user thought it was 'biased' to report that Madoff had pleaded guilty to criminal fraud by running a Ponzi scheme, and been sentenced to a lot of years in jail for it. Marean thought the article should only say that Madoff had somehow managed to accidentally go bankrupt. Basically, he did a lot of edits that inserted utter nonsense (or possibly an alternative reality of some kind) into articles, causing a lot of time end effort to be wasted. ] (]) 12:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose''' Unban request does not show that he understands the problems with his edits, and as Elen states above, it also misrepresents the proximate reason for the ban. --] (]) 15:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose''' Yes, I was the Admin who blocked him. However, reviewing the WP:AN/I thread that led me to this sanction, I find that he simply didn't get it then & I have to wonder whether he even gets it now. (] doesn't mean that if someone confesses to a crime, experts have verified that he did the crime, & a legal court found him guilty & threw the book at him for the crime, Misplaced Pages must say something a lot less definite & incriminating.) But if he can find a mentor who will help him understand the actual problem, I'm willing to withdraw my objection. But according to the earlier thread, he already burnt out one mentor by that point. -- ] (]) 18:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''No''' per that AN/Bernie Madoff thing that got him banned in the first place. I'm sorry, lack of clue is one thing, but complete and willful ignorance is another. –] 18:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::But enough about ''''. --] (]) 19:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose''' per ]. I remember the ban and this editor just isn't able to be productive. I think he actually means well, but as mean as it is, even well-meaning people who harm the encyclopedia can't be allowed to edit it. -- ''']'''] 02:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose''' after reading the long AN thread; I think he still doesn't get it. There's a large gulf between being ] and being completely wrong. Mr. Marean was completely wrong, to the point that not even the person whom he cast in a better light ] would agree with his edits. Big deal; revert and move on; except that Mr. Marean didn't get it at that point, and continued on AN to insist he was correct in his edits. Even in this unblock request there is an undercurrent of 'you just didn't understand my edits'. Further, that he wants to be unbanned and read policies is again, wrong. Read the policies first, understand them, and (now that his talk page is unlocked), try proposing edits there. If he can propose constructive edits that actually line up with reality for a while, then ask to be unbanned. Until he proves he can make constructive edits, I can't help but think this request is putting the cart before the horse. ] (]) 05:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose''' Quite simply put, I believe he is simply saying what he thinks needs to be said in order to get unblocked. He still has not admitted that he made any mistake, simply chalking up this to 'not having consensus'. I'd like to say that a mentor could help, but if he can't understand what was wrong with the edits by now, I don't think a mentor will be much of a help. ] (]) 06:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose'''. -''']''' <sup><small>]</small></sup></span> 08:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I remember him, '''oppose''', as mentioned above ]. One doesn't get community banned for a minor disagreement on the rules. A willfully ignorant and incompetent person, who I thought quit possibly was just a really clever troll playing ].] (]) 09:14, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::''I think this article should be called Elizabeth II of England, because whoever heard of the United Kingdom? Everybody knows what England means. It’s the southern half of one of the British Isles.'' I know which one my money's on. ] (]) 20:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::'Whoever heard of the United Kingdom'?! You're shitting your Uncle HalfShadow, right? That's ''Newfie joke'' dumb. ]] 20:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Exactly, he's either too incompetent, or a plain ole garden variety...... you get the point. ] (]) 20:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: "Nobody lost money underestimating the intelligence of the US public," to quote one of our sages. We have ], so I'm no longer surprised at the ignorance of my fellow citizens. (I don't know what those eople think the 50th state is in that case. Canada? God, if that were the case, I hope those 34 million people would rate more than 2 senators & 2 representatives.) -- 21:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Reject''' appeal; he still doesn't get it. ] (]) 09:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose'''. Oh sweet Jesus, oppose. This is one we do NOT want back. --]] 22:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose''' He's either monstrously stupid or a clever troll; either way, we can do without him. ]] 22:12, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Storm/teacup == | |||
| It seems ] has some issues. I made what I felt were some inconsequential changes to ], which mostly amounted to cleaning up the references, trimming some inappropriate bits (a cite to Facebook, and links to probably-unauthorised downloads of copyright material). They didn't like that, and put their material back in. They were reverted ''twice'' - by myself and ]. After reverting the material, ] saw fit to drop a block warning on my talk page - I removed it as blatantly inappropriate. ] dropped by and reinstated it, chastising me, and even going so far as to defend ]'s links to copyrighted material by suggesting they counted as "standing on the shoulders of giants". ] would later admit that they'd not actually bothered checking the edits in question because they were "too busy". | |||
| I have since received <s>{{tl|blocked}}</s> {{tl|uw-block2}} on my talk page by ], who is presumably not an admin (since evidently I am not blocked). The edit that user took issue with this time? . I'm now being accused of "removing suitable references and links", though when you actually study that diff, you'll find it does exactly what the edit summary says it does - it removes a cite to Facebook, it combines duplicate references (using <nowiki><ref name="..."></nowiki>), and tags a couple of items that didn't appear to be supported by the sources - in other words, even less contentious than the original. | |||
| I have little patience to deal with this right now, so while I step out into the Big Blue Room to cool off, I'd appreciate some outside input on the matter. Here or on the relevant talk pages is fine. ] (]) 10:49, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Could you provide links for the edit differences in order to support your claim please? ] (]) 14:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Rodhullandemu has not been notified of this discussion. ] (]) 21:11, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have notified him ] (]) 22:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It was late; I saw , a removal of references without explanation- I later saw that there had been an invitation to discuss on the Talk page, which had not been taken up at the time of this revert. An edit summary would have been helpful, especially to an outsider. I now see that this is not the first time ] has been warned, and blocked, for edit-warring; s/he should know by now that (a) edit summaries are recommended and (b) ]. Unless there are any particular problems, that should be an end of it, since the Talk page is open to all. ]] 22:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It probably should end here, but it is worth noting that the IP, ], was providing good edit summaries - except once, when reverting back changes - and was mistakenly accused and warned of vandalism when the edits appear to have been made in good faith. - ] (]) 13:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::So when can I expect the apology that's clearly due? ] (]) 15:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Request urgent move reversal and move protection == | |||
| {{resolved|moved back and protected, discussions can continue on where it should be. ]] 13:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)}} | |||
| There was a little bit of discussion yesterday about the correct article title for the article about the Belgian rail crash, currently the top story on ITN on the Main Page. After a ] on the talk page, the consensus was that ] was a reasonable title, at least for as long as the story is a current event. | |||
| This morning, {{user|Westermarck}} the article to ], and then to prevent the page being moved back by any other than an admin. This without any discussion on the talk page on the part of the editor concerned. | |||
| Could someone move ] back to ], a title that had been stable for most of the articles history, and move protect the page for one week? I'm asking here as the article is currently prominently placed on the Main Page, and so shouldn't really go dancing around all over the place when the current title is both accurate and the most common reference in the media. ] ] 12:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : I would have normally move-protected on whatever current WRONG version I found, except that I strongly dislike the use of the disruptive technique of redirect-scorching that was applied here (apparently deliberately), so indeed I moved it back before move-protecting (for 48 hrs, which should be enough to work this out on talk.) ] ] 12:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::For what it's worth, Westermarck has a long, long history of unilateral and disruptive page moves, including such scorched-earth tactics. I believe he has never been given more than a warning (but a great deal of them at that), aside from the fact that he's banned on the Dutch Misplaced Pages. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 21:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Take ] - please! == | |||
| {{resolved|Blocked and salted by LessHeard vanU}} | |||
| You may remember ] from such classic ANI comedy bits as . Fred1296 is a single purpose account whose single purpose seems to be very very strongly related to ]. Despite previous discussions, they have once again reverted redirects of non-notable Chris Rush albums ( & ). Can someone please inform them that their set is over and perhaps protect the redirects to prevent future Cris Rush fans from doing the same? Thanks. ] (]) 14:13, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Account indef'ed and redirects low sodium salted (there may yet be reason for articles, so autoconfirmed accounts can edit - and Chris Rush fans will need to mature their socks...) ] (]) 21:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks! ] (]) 22:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Lifting community ban on ] == | |||
| This user has been banned for a year from Misplaced Pages as a result of a community ban, imposed, as it was discovered later, as a result of wikistalking campaign by the so-called EEML cabal group. (see this evidence: . The only his guilt was that he suggested that the recent creation of the so-called ] by the Russian government may be in part, triggered by the Digwuren's group (later discovered to be EEML conspiracy) activity in Misplaced Pages. | |||
| He also has been previously banned as a result of ] case which was also abused by the EEML group by demanding the remedies were "symmetric" and accusing the arbitrator Kirill Loshkin of ethnic prejudice towards Russian cause. Petri Krohn was completely irrelated to the cause of that arbitration (which was good article promotion shopping in IRC by Digwuren), other than being political opponent of the EEML group. He was inactive in political topics for 3 months by the time of the arbitratiuon. | |||
| It was discovered lated that hounding political opponents and driving them off Misplaced Pages is a common tactic of the EEML group, other case being ] (see evidence here:). | |||
| It has been suggested by the Arbitration Committee members that the victims of the group (Russavia and Petri Krohn) to apply of lifting of their respective bans, Russavia already did and the ban has been lifted. | |||
| I personally know no Misplaced Pages's rule Petri Krohn ever broke and suggest him to be unblocked.--] (]) 15:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Just noting that the Arbitration Committee's one-year ban on this user was imposed in 2007 and expired in 2008. According to the block log, the user is currently blocked/banned as the result of a different discussion. Also, before spending time on this discussion, do we know whether Petri Krohn actually wishes to return to editing? Not commenting on any other aspect at this time. ] (]) 15:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just re-read my post. Second time he was "community-banned" by the Wiki-stalking campign by the EEML members which is evident from their mail archive:, submitted to the Arbcom. There are posts where they discuss how to better drive him out of Misplaced Pages and how to better vote on his ban to avoid suspicions of stalking. The formal reason for the community ban was his mention that Digwuren's group behavior in Misplaced Pages maybe played role in the creation of the Historical Truth Commition by the Russian government. Currently he is under this ban which was clearly discovered to be canvassed.--] (]) 15:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Actually, no canvassing was discovered by the ArbCom, which was the reason why ArbCom did not remove his ban. Also, I believe that the current ArbCom needs to be notified in this, as there may be a separate issue with Krohn's ban not being lifted. --] 20:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Canvassing '''was''' discoverad by the Arbcom.--] (]) 01:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::In that case, can you please link the relevant (about Krohn's block) finding of fact by ArbCom and not delusional musings? --] 07:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' - If we are chiming in to determine if Petri Krohn is to be unblocked and allowed to return, I support that. Looking at the thread in his block log, it looks like he was blocked very soon after coming off his 1 year ban for allegedly making threats . I don't really see a direct threat though, it looks more like a misunderstanding blown out of proportion... the editor even apologized and removed the alleged threat but was blocked anyway. A number of EEML partisans pile on at that discussion, which kinda makes it seem corrupted to me. PK was active at his own talk page as recently as last January, so it's safe to assume he is checking in now and then and perhaps still interested in participating. He has something like 27,000 live edits, which is fairly prolific... I say let him come back and contribute. Additioanlly, the ArbCom ban was over long ago, he is currently community blocked and can be unblocked by consensus, as noted at the bottom of the block discussion from last May. ] (]) 03:02, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment'''. The admin that decided the ban is apparently not around, having <s>invoked the right to vanish</s> renamed his account and retired (see ]). I have no opinion on the merits of this appeal. ] ] 03:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - well-worth giving another chance. —<font face="Baskerville Old Face">] ] • ]</font> 05:46, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * "It was teh Cabalz!" is not compelling when considered in the context of an editor who has already been banned once by ArbCom. I think an independent review of the evidence is indicated and would suggest that if this user wants to return to editing then they should contact the ban appeals subcommittee, who will judge the case dispassionately on its merits. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 12:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == speedtrap.org == | |||
| We don't have an article on this website, but we do have numerous city articles with reference to this website. The website claims to be a source of speed trap information around the U.S. In theory, just about any city article could contain a link to this website. Thought the site uses the "org" top level domain, it's a commercial site. In my opinion, this looks a lot like link spam to a non-notable website. Cleanup, however, will require significant effort and it may rouse a few questions, so I thought I'd seek an opinion here, first. Linkspam to be removed - or not - or some other recommendation? ] (]) 17:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Spam. I don't see what encyclopaedic value linking to a site with a list of speed traps holds, especially from city articles. ] ] 17:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree with ] here. I see no encyclopedic value in the site, and would not be opposed to its being place on the ] --] <small>(])</small> 18:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: Um, it might be of value to ], but I'm not about to add it as an External link, nor am going to remove it from the blacklist. (However, if it is already linked at that article, we may need to discuss this matter further.) -- ] (]) 18:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Not even in speed trap really. I wouldn't be opposed ot blacklisting it. ''<I>]</I>'' <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 00:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I had a look at the website in question (maybe to come up with a witty & elegant response to NF), only to find it, well, underwhelming. All of those links & if there is a speed trap listed there, I couldn't find it. (So much for passionate arguments. Oh well, next time I'll just uncritically agree with NF before she/he posts & save everyone the work.) Now having examined the article in question, I'm more concerned with the lack of sources there than any external link -- & am amazed that the speed trap in ] isn't mentioned, especially since it's so well documented. :-/ ] (]) 04:46, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| The website isn't blacklisted that I know of, and it has been listed in the Speed Trap article as an external link. So there's the question. Is SpeedTrap.org linkspam? I checked Alexa. SpeedTrap.org got a bump once it was added to Misplaced Pages a few weeks ago, but the bump is gone, and visitor rates are lower than ever (low). Oh, and assuming we agree it's linkspam, what's the process to get it blacklisted? ] (]) 18:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :*{{spamlink|speedtrap.org}} | |||
| :Taking a look at this one, we have some ] and linking by: | |||
| :*{{IPSummary|70.113.40.110}} | |||
| :*{{IPSummary|70.183.5.58}} | |||
| :*{{IPSummary|70.241.167.93}} | |||
| :*{{IPSummary|66.56.44.247}} | |||
| :*{{UserSummary|StuffStuffer}} | |||
| :Make of this what you will. (Usage info can be found in ].) ] 02:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :] is the canonical place for this type of issue. Yes, extlinks of that type are bad. I'm behind the times but if there are a lot of them to remove, maybe there are some bots that can help. ] (]) 11:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Problematic admin == | |||
| {{resolved|frivolous complaint. ] is that way. ] <small>(])</small> 19:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC)}} | |||
| ] this admin persists in deleting my page, refusing discussion on notability. Misplaced Pages is based on consensus and this acts of arrogance shouldn't be tolerated ] (]) 18:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : ] ] (]) 18:49, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've posted on Di Natale Massimo's talk page explaining my concerns. If another admin wants to restore the page, that's fine with me, but I honestly feel any article about this person is covered by ]. ] (]) 18:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::The consensus in Misplaced Pages is that admins are permitted to delete blatant attack pages, and he did a pretty good job of explaining his concerns with the article on your talk page. He probably would not have deleted it when you recreated it again if you had followed his advice by making it more neutral on your second try. --]] 18:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :User:Di Natale Massimo is obviously a new editor and not familiar with BLP or Notability. The article was deleted appropriately and should remain so. ] (]) 18:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :This appears to be a legitimate application of WP:BLP1E by PhilKnight. This appears to be a single event involving otherwise non-notable individuals. Misplaced Pages is not intended for tar-and-feathering. ](]) 19:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I know she's not notable. I asked why other not notable people are present on Misplaced Pages, but he didn't answer me. He deleted page talk page and ignored my question in his talk page. This page can't be created? Well, but give me an explanation about ] (]) 19:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::It's not any admin's job to explain why other articles exist on Misplaced Pages, just because they've made a decision regarding a particular article. If you see another article whose subject you don't think is notable you can nominate it for deletion -- however I'd suggest seriously considering whether you're completely familiar with Misplaced Pages's article standards yet. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 19:27, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| PhilKnight is not a problematic administrator, neither is he arrogant. Placing a report on ANI using ] and slanderous words is not a wise decision. | |||
| The article in question was created twice by ]. The first creation was a blatant attack page, which went as far as calling the subject of the BLP "a criminal". PhilKnight correctly deleted the attack page, and placed a ] on Di Natale Massimo's talk page. The content of the second page was identical to the first with the exception of the word "criminal" which was not included. I tagged the second page with CSD#A7 (due to ]). | |||
| Issues like these happen when new and unexperienced editors start creating their first wikipedia article without acquainting themselves first with basic Misplaced Pages rules and guidelines. ] (]) 19:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :]. All this are attack pages, then. Frivolous complain? Incivil? Are you joking? ] (]) 19:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: An attack page isn't one that describes a notable person using facts backed up with reliable sources, even if the information is largely negative. If you require more explanation than that, I'd suggest taking this to ]; or ], if you really think people will seriously consider prohibiting all articles on criminals. As far as ANI goes, the matter appears to be resolved. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 19:40, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)</font> | |||
| ::: ok ] (]) 19:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Harassment == | |||
| This is a formal written complaint about on-going harassment. There is at least one editor whose political agenda is attacking and disparaging me, and invalidly calling for sanctions or other actions to be taken against myself. Let me state for the record here that I am a good faith editor with a long history of contributions and civil collaboration. The latest example of this inappropriate, uncivil, and anonymous harassment is from a user who is almost certainly a member of WikiProject Mathematics logging on anonymously: ], and trolling at ]. My request is for an investigation as to the identity of this person, and some form of written reprimand. | |||
| However, in addition, I would like to take this opportunity to propose a new practice of group sanctions. This is to say that most likely that this person is known by others within Wikiproject Mathematics, but the group takes no action to discipline its members, and therefore deserves to be held responsible collectively for creating a shark tank culture, not conducive for civil collaboration. I think if all members of a project were blocked from editing for 24 hours when these rouge situations turn up, that we would see a concerted effort to find, identify, and correct uncivil editors. When a troll like this shares the same biases as a prevailing group, they look the other way because they manifest a consequential (political) rather than principled ethic. We need to create a sanction for these situations because they haven't taken the high road of their own accord.] (]) 19:51, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Um, no. No way. You can't sanction WikiProjects for actions of their members.--] (]) 20:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Um, well, ordinarily I would agree with you that individuals are individually responsible. I am very much a humanist and libertarian, and that is how it should be in governments. However, when it comes to situations where there is a lot of conflict, there is a need for more rules. This isn't a congress or a supreme court, it's more closely analogous to a high school club. We can institute any strange rule we want, (like requiring funny hats, etcetera) --if you object, go somewhere else, and nobody cries about it. If a group is sanctioned just once, that will be enough to change the culture immediately forever. So, um, yes we absolutely can and should create a higher standard of civility with appropriate sanctions against the whole group. You seem to forget, nobody ''has'' to edit the Misplaced Pages, it's a hobby. If sanctions are some major rights violation, there really is no crying about it under those circumsatnces. Certainly military schools have no problem sanctioning a whole group for the action of one of its members. They sure do emphasize honor and decency too don't they.] (]) 20:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Do you believe that a military school is a reasonable analogy to Misplaced Pages? ] (]) 20:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Actually it is a far better analogy than a kindergarten, which also needs a lot of rules because the people there are very immature. ] (]) 20:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Military schools are designed to turn out people who will work well within a strictly structured and tightly disciplined hierarchical organization, because that type of organization is necessary to conduct wars and othe military operations, where the inherent danger and chaos can be (somewhat) held at bay by the group's unified and coordinated behavior. Misplaced Pages, on the other hand, is a collaborative endeavour to assemble an encyclopedia, which requires neither the structure or disclipline necessary in the military -- in fact, such qualities may well be detrimental to it, as they inhibit free-wheeling behavior, serendipity and casual investigation, all of which play an important part here. Given this, I would disagree that a military school is any kind of model to follow for Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 20:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::What say we avoid ] violations for the rest of the discussion, tally ho, pip pip? --] (]) 20:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Where? My comments where addressed to the '''''idea''''', not to the editor. ] (]) 20:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I detect no personal attack at all. Beyond my Ken and I are having a wonderful and civil discussion as far as I can tell.] (]) 20:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It wasn't you I was referring to, BMK -- it was the implication that Misplaced Pages editors lacked honor and decency that I was addressing. --] (]) 21:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Ooops, sorry -- and thanks for the explication. ] (]) 21:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :This sounds like a terrible idea, and an explicit denial of good faith. I recalled a discussion that may be some of the background to this that we had last year - see . I know nothing about the current situation, just that I hope we would never use blocks to punish all members of a Wiki project on the assumption that they are responsible for one person's actions (and of course, we aren't supposed to use blocks to punish in any case. ] (]) 20:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Who would you punish? All the members of a project, including those not currently active? Just the active members, even those that didn't participate in the particular discussion in question? Only those involved in the discussion, including those who agreed with you? No, you just want to punish everyone who disagrees with you. Not just a "terrible" idea, a truly awful one.<p>I propose that all editors who bring up truly awful ideas on AN/I be "sanctioned", which'll be beneficial in preventing others from suggesting other truly awful ideas. ] (]) 20:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::To answer your question, yes all members of a wikiproject. And, NO, it's not about "disagreeing with me." It's about demonstratable harassment. There are cases where it would be reasonable, and cases where it would be unreasonable. I think we are perfectly able to figure these things out together. Since the so-called "harm" is that some poor Misplaced Pages addict can't edit for 24 hours, well like I said, there's just no crying about that. There is a way to avoid it, by demonstrating a commitment to civility. To say that the benefits would outweigh the "harm" would be the understatement of the year. Perhaps instead of sanctions, some leaders in the admin could take it upon themselves to show some leadership by speaking out on these types of situations on the appropriate project page. Your counterproposal is silly and entirely political, whereas mine is not.] (]) 20:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :WikiProjects are loose associations based on interest that allow for coordination on specific topics. Nowhere is there an administrative or judicial role in their definition - resolution lies thoroughly outside WikiProjects. Allowing, asking, or expecting "them" to "discipline" their "members" (all of these terms are poorly defined, at best) would be the very definition of bureaucracy and cabalism. ~ <font color="#FF0099">Amory</font><font color="#555555"><small> ''(] • ] • ])''</small></font> 20:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yeah, because "cabalism" isn't a problem at all now. My goodness. All I am asking is for some moral leadership. ] (]) 20:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Heyhey''hey''. The first rule of the Misplaced Pages Cabal is you don't talk about the Misplaced Pages Cabal. | |||
| :::... | |||
| :::... | |||
| :::... | |||
| :::<small>Oh ''shit''...</small> ]] 20:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This is a project to build an encyclopedia, not an exercise in creating the best possible on-line community (which is good, because it ain't). "Moral leadership" is not a relevant concept. ] (]) 20:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You are correct. In that regard the kindergarten analogy is more apt that the military school. Let's strive for civility at least.] (]) 20:49, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::A kindergarten has no overall goal aside from starting the social training and education of children. A lot of rules are needed because ... well, because they're '''''children'''''. Here, there's an overriding purpose, and it's not to turn out better Wikipedians. As far as the '''''project''''' is concerned, as long as the encyclopedia gets better, it's almost irrelevant what happens to the participants. "Almost" because complete chaos is not an environment conducive to attracting people to work on the project, or keeping them on it once they're there. The trick, from the project's point of view, is to maximize the (positive) output of the editors by providing just enough structure to keep everything together and running (relatively) smoothly, but not so much as to stultify the participants or so little as to drive them away. But the project's interest in the members of the community is, strictly speaking, "selfish" (in the Richard Dawkins sense). It could care less whether there's "moral leadership", as long as the encyclopedia keeps improving.<p>And, in any case, there's really nothing for admins to do here, is there? Shouldn't this be on the Village Pump? ] (]) 21:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :An IP makes one talk page comment, and you want a whole WikiProject banned? 1. Without further evidence, I see no harassment. You'll need to come up with better than that for an admin to lift a finger. 2. Collective punishment is the worst idea I've seen raised on Misplaced Pages for a long time. ]<span style="background-color:white; color:grey;">&</span>] 00:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::What a way for a troll to be efficiently disruptive! Pick a Wikiproject that's not terribly active, make a few harrassing edits in some dark corner, and wait for the system to spank everyone in the Wikiproject. ] (]) 06:01, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Wikiprojects have certainly been sanctioned in the past for doing things like talkpage canvassing, but what Greg is asking is ridiculous. FWIW, Greg seems to think that 71.139.28.90 is Hans Adler which I think is an unfounded suspicion (71's edits are not Hans's style). I somewhat doubt that 71 is a regular math editor. ] (]) 00:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Those here would probably benefit from links to past WikiProject discussions of GregBard. Most recently, see: | |||
| * ] | |||
| * ] | |||
| * ] | |||
| * ], | |||
| * ] | |||
| * ] | |||
| * ] | |||
| A few more older references to GregBard can be found by searching the project archives, but I think that skimming the above discussions will bring everyone up to speed. ] (]) 04:01, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Aside from the immorality of Greg Bard's suggestion "''... the group takes no action to discipline its members, and therefore deserves to be held responsible collectively ...''", it is based on a false factual premise that the Mathematics project ''could'' discipline its members. Most of us are ordinary users and do not have the power to punish others even if we wanted to. ] (]) 04:14, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think the point is that Greg Bard feels someone ''is'' trying to punish and there ''is'' a math cabal. I found a quick look at ] helpful where it seems one of those ] theories apply - ''when a user starts accusing everyone of being in on a conspiracy, he or she is typically surprised if you, the more established wikipedians, band together against them.'' If someone is socking or harassing that should be stopped but I don't see evidence presented as yet. I'd like to see some of the alleged members of the math editing cabal (]) offer up opinions on the matter and possible ways forward. ] 10:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Well, I move that we establish a WikiProject where all members be held responsible for their misdeeds: WikiProject S&MB&D! We'll send all of those bad little editors there where they'll be kept in line by a MOTAS attired in black leather, who will abide no misdeeds & harshly punish any misbehavior! (Yes, I am being sarcastic. No, I will not help establish this WikiProject.) -- ] (]) 20:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I don't have time for editing at the moment and only found an ANI notice by accident when looking something up while still logged in. I don't even have time to read this tread, but here is some information in case it helps: | |||
| * The last time I edited without being logged in was a long time ago, probably much more than half a year ago. | |||
| * I have nothing to do with the IPs that were mentioned in the ANI notice. They are from AT&T and geolocate to California. I am currently in Vienna. | |||
| * There is an anonymous editor who occasionally stirs shit in relation to mathematical logic articles and especially likes to provoke Gregbard. I don't know if this editor is from California and is behind these IPs. The admin who normally monitors this problem is CBM. He might have important input. | |||
| * I see Gregbard as generally a problem for Misplaced Pages, but if he caused any recent incidents other than this ANI report itself I am at least not aware of them. | |||
| * This report indicates that Gregbard is now resorting to a conspiracy theory in order to explain why WikiProject Mathematics generally tries to contain the damage done by his well-intentioned but clueless editing. | |||
| I will notify CBM of this thread. ] ] 10:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| PS: In addition to the links above about Gregbard, see ]. ] ] 11:01, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :FYI: I'm in California, have been editing math articles from IP addresses since forever, and have had a few not-exactly-positive encounters with Greg around logic articles, so it's sort of possible that Hans is referring to me. But I've never provoked Greg or "stirred up shit" on purpose and 71.whatever is definitely not me. I did start an ANI thread about Carl Hewitt a couple days ago but I felt it was very justified and not done lightly (and the remedies that resulted from it were way too weak IMHO). I think Greg is well-meaning even though his lack of clue can be annoying at times. I would support a topic ban or mentorship for Greg towards mathematical logic articles (talkpage participation is ok). Hewitt on the other hand is a real abuser with an arbcom ban and a long history of block evasion, who should be dealt with sharply. ] (]) 11:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| === break (71.xx) === | |||
| I'm commenting here on Hans Adler's request. There is someone, most recently IP 71.139.28.90, who uses IP addresses to make edits to provoke Gregbard. It's completely inappropriate, and I wish that person would stop doing it, because it doesn't help the situation. This isn't the first time it has happened; for example see the contribs of IP 67.118.103.210, which is in the same city as 71.xxx | |||
| I'm not a checkuser, but based on geographical location and editing style it seems very unlikely to me that the IP in question is Hans Adler. My suggestion would be is for a checkuser to look at the 71.xx IP address and go from there. | |||
| IP 66.127.55.192 has been editing for some time on the same IP address in a different city than 71.xx, and I don't think there is much reason to think they are the same person. | |||
| As for the math project: even the math editors who are admins don't have any way to force the other math editors to do anything. There's a phrase for this: "herding cats". — Carl <small>(] · ])</small> 12:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Serious violation of ] policy == | |||
| :Any so-called "commentary" has been removed, ie "complicity" and now just facts related to the subject and topic remain, yet here we are. Cheers ] (]) 20:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Problematic administrator destroyed valid references and valid disambiguation entries, see: | |||
| :I will note, per the International Criminal Court, any material support for War Crimes, like funding or vetos allowing war crimes to continue in the UN Security Council, are themselves War Crimes https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Elements-of-Crimes.pdf Cheers ] (]) 21:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=VRML&action=historysubmit&diff=344452957&oldid=344432273 | |||
| ::Unless you can find a RS to back that up, that would be OR. ]] 21:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=X3D&action=historysubmit&diff=344452798&oldid=344434739 | |||
| :I just reverted TLoM's most recent , {{tq|has vetoed 5 ceasefire agreements.}} when the source says {{tq|vetoed five resolutions, including three calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, one Russian oral amendment, and a proposal for full Palestinian membership in the U.N.}} The '''three''' ceasefire vetoes are already documented in the article. Elevating this to a separate section and misrepresenting the source violate ]. I question whether TLoM should be editing BLPs. ] ] 21:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Iota&action=historysubmit&diff=344451726&oldid=344441827 | |||
| ::I find this editors removal of information vs an easy correction of the word "agreement" to "resolution" troubling at best and biased at worst. This section is ripe for expansion as more scholarly works will be forthcoming. It seems the editor would rather delete this information rather than correct and provide more information. Cheers ] (]) 21:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yot&action=historysubmit&diff=344452272&oldid=344449865 | |||
| :::If {{tqq|more scholarly works will be forthcoming}}, then ] when ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :@], they ] by @] on the 17/02/2024. Should this perhaps be best addressed at ]? '']''<sup>]</sup> 21:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No need. Blocked for two weeks for edit warring on three pages in violation of ]. If it continues after the block, please simply let me know on my talk page (or re-report here and feel free to notify me). ] (]) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Will do. – ] (]) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Given the thread below I think we should discuss a topic-ban here and now, rather than going thru AE. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 21:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ec}} Perhaps. I was going to initially bring this to 3RRNB but decided to bring it here. – ] (]) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Removal of legitimately sourced information concerning ongoing Genocide in Gaza === | |||
| In this way he by restoring of '''old sourcing requests''' and removal of '''current valid sources''' seriously violated ] policy. Please restore directly preceeding state of these pages. ] (]) 20:02, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Retaliatory. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{userlinks|Bbb23}} has removed legitimately sourced information regarding the subject's involvement with the ]. Cheers ] (]) 21:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::That's a problem. Content is content. If it meets our standards, then the editor is irrelevant. The appropriate response would be to immediately block the banned user and review the edits on a case by case basis. In this case, valid edits were removed. ] (]) 20:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :What subject? ] (]) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::: You are free to review the edits and restore what you find worthwhile. But this banned editor has been too much of a nuisance for me to check all of it, especially not in articles whose topics I don't know well. It's part of this banned troll's mode of operation to make a mix of good with bad edits, editing with several different IPs successively, changing or even partially reverting their own edits, all with the express purpose of creating as much confusion as possible. Longtime experience shows the only clean solution is to roll back all of it on sight, as quickly as possible. ] ] 20:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::@], see the directly above discussion. '']''<sup>]</sup> 21:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I agree. I've seen this pattern before with other banned editors, and except where rolling back might create a BLP violation I think rolling them all back is probably appropriate. Letting this banned editor enjoy this ANI discussion is, however, not appropriate. ] (]) 20:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| :::::Edits recognizable as being from banned editors are deletable on sight, regardless of whether they are "good" or not. Banned means banned. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| :::::Agree with Fut. Perf, Dougweller, and Baseball Bugs. Banned means banned, and the best way to discourage this kind of time-wasting gamesmanship is to revert all edits on sight, unless such a reversion creates a BLP violation. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 04:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::"Deleteable on sight" doesn't mean "'''''must''''' be deleted on sight", it just means that we won't get in trouble (say with 3RR or a 1RR restriction) for deleting them, right? Aren't we allowed to use our discretion and judgment about the edits, and keep those that improve the encyclopedia (our continuing goal), while ruthlessly deleting those which aren't helpful or borderline? ] (]) 05:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: I think that yes, they should be deleted on sight. Regardless of the content, we're just borrowing trouble if we weigh every single edit made by a banned editor who is only here to mess with legit editors. As Jajjg said, it's just letting someone play games with us and waste time. After it's been reverted, if you feel like any of the content is worthy of addition, you can add it yourself under your own ID. That way, a legit editor is responsible for the addition. Most of the time, it's not a problem. ] (]) 06:02, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: Yes, that's reasonable - if I'm certain that the information is clearly beneficial to the project, then I should take responsibility for it. Thanks for clarifying that. ] (]) 06:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: I'd like to note that ] has requested on that I "take responsibility" and revert FPAS's deletions on ] and ], but I've declined. ] (]) 19:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| (OD) And that's where the problem lies with banned editors. They should be reverted and ignored completely, otherwise, they're still getting their jollies by causing disruption here one way or the other. I don't want one of these ^#$@heads to feel like he can leave me a message and give me odd jobs. ] (]) 19:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * If only we had ] :-) <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 21:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Tendentious editor == | ||
| Single purpose account {{Userlinks|NicolasTn}} is reverting again . They want to expand the lead which is disputed. They have been warned not to edit war. They claim to "restore deletion" most of which introduced by them to the lead, but in the process removing other sourced information and adding back errors. They know where to discuss edits but avoid doing so as much as they can, so I don't think enough discussion exists to initiate dispute resolution. . ] (]) 23:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| :It looks like this article page history has been an edit war between the two of you. You both responded at ], why not try to continue that discussion or, eventually, try ]? Neither of you have had made much use of the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| ::I'll just note that this editor, who has only made 51 edits, hasn't edited in 3 days so they may not respond here immediately. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| ::They would probably respond only after being reverted again by me or the other editor. Since their one and only response, they've left the discussion hanging again while actively editing the article. ] (]) 20:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| ] (]) 20:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Only one of those edits is from today. The rest are from August. So, {{aiv|i}} <font color="darkorange">]</font><b><font color="midnightblue"><big>]</big></font></b><font color="red">]</font> 20:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I wouldn't call some inappropriate (but topical) comments on a talk page "vandalism", and even if the purpose was trolling, it hardly seems worth bringing to AN/I -- just the kind of response a troll might want. Just revert and ignore, I'd say. ] (]) 20:26, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::I can also suggest adding warnings to the IP's talk page as these edits occur. In this case it would be inappropriate use of talk pages. It is hard to a) help them become a better editor or b) block them if we haven't been informed why their edits are problematic. ] | ] 20:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == False information on Gregorian and Julian calendars == | |||
| == User:Adillia == | |||
| 62.31.226.77 insists upon inserting an incorrect procedure, based on original research, for converting between the Gregorian and Julian calendars into ]. The error is shown at ]. ] (]) 20:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{Userlinks|Aidillia}} | |||
| This series of edits have extended to ], with statements indicating that the USSR adopted the religious ] despite the fact that the USSR changed calendars in 1919, four years before the ] was created. ] (]) 22:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I've been avoiding that user ever since we were blocked for edit warring on ] but they keep going at every edits I made, specifically the recent ones on the files I uploaded like ] and ], where the file are uploaded in ] and abided ] but they keep messing up. I'm still at lost and not sure what's their problem with my edits. Additional: I will also hold accountability if I did ]. | |||
| '''After what period of administrator inaction may an issue be taken to arbitration?''' ] (]) 22:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Note: Aidillia "accidentally" archived this discussion. ] ] 02:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The above claim is false. | |||
| ] (]) 23:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I've many proof that shows you're the one who start the problem. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:02, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Have patience, I think going to ArbCom would be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I think it would help if you explained how the IP is being disruptive in more detail, provided more diffs. You're assuming that admins will understand this content dispute and side with you. ]<span style="background-color:white; color:grey;">&</span>] 23:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::] you revert my correct upload which makes me so offended. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::] i upload as per their official social media. But rather used a poster version, and in the end i revert it. Same like what u did to me on ]. I don't know what is this user problem, first upload the incorrect poster than re-upload again with the correct poster which i already uploaded, then need a bot to resize it. (So unnecessary) <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I reverted that because it was too early to say that the poster is indeed the main one at that time when it was labeled as . You know that we rely more on ] ] ] rather on official website or social media accounts as they are ], so I don't know why you were offended by a revert. ] ] 04:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Why you don't say this on the summary? or u can just simply discuss it on my talk page. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 04:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::] and ]. I have other ] in real life. ] ] 08:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::If you're that busy, please stop reverting my edits/uploads without any clear explanation. Just like what you did on ]. You will just engaged in ]. I've also seen you revert on ]; someone reverted it to the correct one (which I uploaded), but you still revert to your preferred version without leaving an edit summary. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 08:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have partially blocked both of you from editing filespace for 72 hours for edit warring. I think an IBAN might be needed here. ] (]/]) 03:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::'''Support''' an indefinite two-way interaction ban between D.18th and Aidillia. They've also been edit warring at ]. Also look at the move log there, which is ridiculous. These people need to stop fighting with each other. ] ] 06:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === User:D.18th === | |||
| ::In several edits including to ] 62.31.226.77 (who also edits as 156.61.160.1) added a method to find the difference in dates between the Julian and Gregorian calendar. It is well know that the rule is that centurial years (ending in 00) are always Julian leap years, but not Gregorian leap years unless they are also evenly divisible by 400. The years 1200 and 2800 are leap years under both systems, so the difference should not increase in those years. When 62.31.226.77's procedure is followed (and all divisions are integer divisions, remainders are dropped), the results are: | |||
| {{atop|1=Withdrawn. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{Userlinks|D.18th}} | |||
| <s>This user keeps coming to wherever i made an edit. And this user also ignore ].</s> <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::For 1199 and 1200: | |||
| :::((1199 + 300) / 100) * 7 / 9 - 4 = 6 | |||
| :::((1200 + 300) / 100) * 7 / 9 - 4 = 7 | |||
| ::so the difference increases, which is wrong. | |||
| <s>:This user is the most number one who often comes in on my talk page first. But when I came to their talk page, i got restored or, worse, got reverted as vandalism.</s> <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Similarly, for 2799 and 2800: | |||
| :{{re|Aidilla}} You have failed to notify {{User|D.18th}} of this discussion, as the red notice at the top of the page clearly requires. I know they already reported you above, but they may not be aware of your one in return. You will need to show clear diffs supporting the allegations that you've made; expecting us to act on this report with no such evidence is likely going to result in ]. Regards, ]. (] | ]). 04:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::((2799 + 300) / 100) * 7 / 9 - 4 = 19 | |||
| ::], you can't remove a post from ANI once it has been responded to by another editor. If you want to rescind your complaint then strike it by using code, <nowiki><s>Comment</s></nowiki> which will show up as <s>Comment</s>. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::((2799 + 300) / 100) * 7 / 9 - 4 = 19 | |||
| :::{{done}}, thanks! <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 05:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == User:Azar Altman and User:Farruh Samadov == | |||
| ::As for the Julian calendar, 62.31.226.77 made a series of edits in which he mixed up the meanings of civil and religious calendars, and indicated countries adopted a religious calendar, the ], when that is plainly impossible. The most recent pair of such edit is . | |||
| {{atop|result=All of the named parties have been indefinitely blocked with checkuser blocks. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 20:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ::He/she changed | |||
| *{{userlinks|Azar Altman}} | |||
| :::The Julian calendar remained in use into the 20th century in some countries as a civil ], but it has generally been replaced by the ] introduced by ] in 1582. | |||
| *{{userlinks|Farruh Samadov}} | |||
| ::to | |||
| {{user|Azar Altman}} was ] for uncivil conduct and MOS violations. Shortley after their initial 72-hour block on December 27, a new user named {{user|Farruh Samadov}} appeared. One of their edits at ] is , the capital of Uzbekistan, in violation of ]. They did this three more times (, , ). And then Azar Altman reverted again twice (, ), leading me to suspect that Farruh Samadov is a ]. Both users edit in the Uzbekistan topic area and both user talk pages have warnings for MoS violations, but Samadov has never used uncivil language, as Altman did on their user talk and in their second edit I linked. –] (]]) 04:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The Julian calendar remained in use into the 20th century in some countries as a civil ], but thirteen days have been excised to make the date the same as in other countries. This is described as the "New calendar". Research will be needed to establish which leap year model has been adopted (if any), but the civil calendar is identical with the new calendar of fixed holy days in Orthodox countries. | |||
| ::which is nonsense for several reasons, including | |||
| ::*If thirteen days are excised from the Julian calendar, it isn't the Julian calendar anymore. | |||
| ::*Russia retained the Julian calendar into the 20th century, but when the USSR took over, they certainly didn't adopt the ] because it didn't exist until 1923, and the USSR government was hostile to religion. | |||
| ::*Civil calendars don't have holy days, so it is nonsense to say they the civil calendar and New Calendar are identical in this respect. ] (]) 00:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I opened a a couple hours ago. It is indeed highly suspicious that Farruh Samadov was created only a few hours after this block was imposed. ] (]) 04:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Legal threat=== | |||
| ::Pinging @] who was involved in the prior ANI and performed the block. ] ] 04:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I interpret the edit summary in to be a legal threat. It states "(Certain individuals have been telling lies about me to the administrators and on talk pages. Be careful what you say as your remarks are disseminated worldwide and libel suits are not unknown.)." ] (]) 11:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Suggest these accounts to be blocked as soon as possible if sockpupperty is confirmed. ] (]) 05:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :A registered user would be indef'd for that comment, which is probably why some editors prefer to remain as IP's, as they can get away with more. An IP is seldom indef'd, but a lengthy block would seem to be called for. Possibly with a fitting comment such as, "Certain individuals have been making legal threats, and lengthy blocks for such threats are well known." ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 12:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::], yes, that's how that goes. ] (]) 13:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's the same IP address for the last month, safe to say it's static. Say a 6 month block for legal threats? ] ] 20:12, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Regardless of SOCK, suggest that Azar receive another block of at least a week for continued disruption shortly after the block was lifted. They were reverted twice (as noted above) for the same edit by two different editors (Laundry and Melik). Their most recent edit summary was {{tq|Stop discriminating by violating Misplaced Pages rules.}} when MOS was specifically mentioned in the prior edit summary and they are abundantly notified about edit warring and not reverting-reverts. ] ] 05:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Blocked for 3 months, and neutral block comment and notice provided. ] (]) 20:50, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Sockpuppetry in Philippine articles == | |||
| == Advice == | |||
| Request an immediate and extended range block for {{User|49.145.5.109}}, a certified sock of LTA ] from editing ] and other related pages pending a result of a protection request, the second to have been filed for that page after the first instance of sockpuppetry by the same account was deemed not serious enough. See also ]. ] (]) 07:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I would appreciate some advice on the following. If a user has named on their WP user page an external (personal) website that they set up, and has admitted to it in talk pages, is there any danger of me ] if I post at ] and ] tying said user with the website? Reason being, they are linking to it on numerous articles on Misplaced Pages. <span style="font-size:80%;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">]<sup> ]</sup></span> 20:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC) ps for any editor who sees my name and thinks this is relating to a discussion that has been ongoing, this is a different website, in an entirely different category to the one we were discussing | |||
| :It seems like this should be reported at ], not at ANI. That's where the checkusers are at although they are generally reluctant to connect an IP account with a blocked sockpuppet. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :You can't out someone who has outed themselves. ] (]) 20:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is already confirmed in the SPI. However, as it is an IP account that can't be indeffed, I'd had to check my calendar too often to see when their existing block expires. 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) ] (]) 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == SeanM1997 == | |||
| ::What if the web page isn't really theirs? I suppose prove that the Misplaced Pages editor is also in control of the external web site could consist of announcing on the WP user page that a particular change will be made in the future to the website. Another form of proof would be if the Misplaced Pages user name is stated on the web site, as such. If the external web site says "I'm Jane Doe" that is not proof, but if it says "My English Misplaced Pages user name is Jane Doe" that's proof. ] (]) 04:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub>}} | |||
| *{{User|SeanM1997}} | |||
| User seems to think that sourcing is only clutter and keeps removing source requests and sometimes even sources. This despite ] and ]. Warnings and request completely fall on deaf ears. This is damaging the encyclopedia. See for example on Manchester Airport which show (in the edit summery) that he has no clue about what independent sources are. And where he removed sources for the connections with some unsourced additions and a source for the airline. | |||
| :You easily could be outing the wrong person or someone wholly uninvolved. The issue is with the edits so I suggest ] if the website might be a reliable source, if they are clear it's not it should be removed and the user alerted not to re-insert it anywhere. If the link is sometimes reliable then COIN may be helpful if they are simply spamming it. ] 10:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::They put on their own WP user page that they registered it. They since removed that statement but it is visible in the history. Does that change matters? <span style="font-size:80%;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">]<sup> ]</sup></span> 12:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::The main issue is the links themselves? If so focus on that as the problem, if the miss the clue train that they are being removed per policy then a stern warning and then maybe blocks are in order. They actually may be misguided or they may not care. In either case the links are the immediate harm and the user can amend their ways or be given a vacation. ] 12:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, the main issue is RS, so I will focus on that. The user can regretably be a bit misguided about sources and certainly will care - I can forsee harrassment accusations coming my way as well as protestations that it is reliable, so I'm sure this will not be the end of it. <span style="font-size:80%;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">]<sup> ]</sup></span> 13:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Combined with ], giving him a ], I think something has to be done. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">] ]</span> 12:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| :Reading SeanM1997's talk page is a depressing saga. I have indefinitely blocked the editor for persistent addition of unsourced and poorly sourced content for years, despite being warned repeatedly. The editor can be unblocked if they promise to provide references to reliable sources 100% of the time. ] (]) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::It should be noted that SeanM1997 has in the past posted a tweet to support something, then used a news story referencing his tweet as a source to insert into an article. Despite many years and many many conversations, they don't/won't understand the concept of independent reliable sources. ] ] 17:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Deegeejay333 and Eurabia == | |||
| {{Resolved|POV reverted, articles semi protected. --] (]) 22:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)}} | |||
| Much of the activity of the infrequently active user {{userlinks|Deegeejay333}} appears to be attempts to whitewash anything to do with the ], attempting to present it as "fact", despite the fact that scholarly sources have consistently defined it as a conspiracy theory (see , ). I think this makes them ]. ] (]) 17:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| This article on the history book written by Sir Gavin Menzies is the recipient of continuous numerous biased personal attacks against Gavin Menzies by ], ], ]. | |||
| : Notifed their talkpage . Despite their long periods of inactivity, their most recent activity is today . ] (]) 17:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Despite many efforts to explain the usage of non-POV and neutrality in this article and following two articles ], ], ] and several other editors refuse to follow Misplaced Pages policy on academic neutrality and persist in their personal attacks against Gavin Menzies in an effort to discredit his discoveries. | |||
| :The rest of their edits on unrelated topics seem unobjectionable. I think page blocks would get the job done in preventing further disruption (I can't get around to doing that right now, but that's my two cents). ] (]/]) 17:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Really? You see nothing wrong with {{diff|Nathan Phillips (activist)|prev|879336081|these}} {{diff|Enhanced interrogation techniques|prev|871177370|edits}}? --] 17:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yeah. It does kind of look like this editor is ] except to do battle with the terrible forces of Misplaced Pages leftism. ] (]) 17:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I did a quick look; I didn't look at all of their edits. I agree that edit is also problematic. ] (]/]) 17:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::White-washing ] was also the very first edit they made at Misplaced Pages as well as their most recent. This is an ongoing issue. ] (]) 18:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Wigglebuy579579 == | |||
| ===]=== | |||
| *{{Userlinks|Wigglebuy579579}} keeps engaging in disruptive editing behaviour: | |||
| This article on the history book written by Sir Gavin Menzies is the recipient of continuous numerous biased personal attacks against Gavin Menzies by ], ], ]. | |||
| # they created dozens of articles by copy-pasting AI-generated text; | |||
| Despite many efforts to explain the concept non-POV and neutrality ], ], ] and several other editors refuse to follow Misplaced Pages policy on academic neutrality and persist in their personal attacks against Gavin Menzies in an effort to discredit his discoveries. | |||
| # they ignored all warnings onto their talk{{nbs}}page; | |||
| # they duplicated draftified articles by simply recreating them. | |||
| {{U|Miminity}} and I have been cleaning the mess for hours, warned him several times, but he just ignores everything and starts again.<span id="Est._2021:1736271756958:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators'_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt">{{snd}}] (] <b>·</b> ]) 17:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)</span> | |||
| : I would support indefinitely blocking this user. Their output is entirely low quality AI-generated slop, and they are contributing nothing of value to the encyclopedia while placing considerable burden on others. ] (]) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :], can you provide some examples so we don't have to search through their contributions? Thank you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: Some pertinent examples ] (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and ] (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. ] (]) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|Liz}} Examples include: | |||
| :::#], ] and ]; | |||
| :::#] and ]; | |||
| :::#] and ]; | |||
| :::#]; | |||
| :::among others. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{Ping|Liz}} This editor left a message on my talkpage and again it is clearly written by AI. ] '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 00:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Are any of the references in ] real or are they all hallucinations? I'm having trouble finding them on web searches. They're also suspiciously old even though there is more recent relevant literature. — ] ] 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The ] essay recommends G3 for articles for which text-source integrity is completely lacking. — ] ] 01:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|rsjaffe}} Using BookFinder.com, Citation #1, #3 (might be a dupref of 1) does exist but has different author, Citation #2 does exist and is correct. #4 is dupref of #2. A quoted google search and a google scholar search about #5, 8, 9, 11 (The journals does not seem to even exist) yields no result. No result for 6, 7, 9, 10 (Nagaland State Press does not seems to even exist) 12 '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 02:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I would like to hear from @], but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. — ] ] 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Click all the link on the ], all of them are {{tl|failed verification}}. Either the page does not exist or the website itself does not exist. The JSTOR sources leads to a completely unrelated article. I think by the looks of it, this draft is safe to delete | |||
| ::::{{ping|Wigglebuy579579}} care to explain? '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 03:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{yo|rsjaffe}} more ref-checking at ]: as ] observes, ''The Angami Nagas: With Some Notes on Neighbouring Tribes'' exists (although with the BrE spelling of the title) and I accessed it at archive.org. It does not mention ''pfütsana'' anywhere in its 570 pages. The closest we get is ''pfuchatsuma'', which is a clan mentioned in a list of sub-clans of the Anagmi. The draft says {{tq|The term Pfütsana is derived from the Angami language, where "Pfü" translates to "life" or "spirit,"}} which is contrary to what ''The Angami Nagas'' says – ''pfü'' is a suffix functioning sort of similarly to a pronoun (and I think I know how the LLM hallucinated the meaning "spirit" but this is getting too long already). I looked at a couple of the sources for ] as well, and I haven't been able to find a single instance where the source verifies the claims in the draft. --'']'' <small>] ]</small> 16:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks for checking. Those are now deleted. — ] ] 16:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*] and ], thanks for supplying examples that can be reviewed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*:I have deleted ] and ] as they have falsified references. Checking the others would be appreciated. Also, editor has been warned on their page about inserting unsubstantiated demographic data in articles. ]. I think we’re running out of ] here. — ] ] 16:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:BittersweetParadox - Overlinking == | |||
| ===]=== | |||
| This article is the recipient of continuous numerous biased personal attacks against Gavin Menzies by ]. | |||
| Despite many efforts to explain the concept non-POV and neutrality ], ], ] and several other editors refuse to follow Misplaced Pages policy on academic neutrality and persist in their personal attacks against Gavin Menzies in an effort to discredit his discoveries. | |||
| :This report certainly has merit, but it doesn't look like it got the culprits right. I was going to fix it, but I just ended up in edit conflicts with ]. ], ] and ] could have paid a little more attention while reverting the IP though. It doesn't look like they checked what they were reverting to.--] (]) 22:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I thought I did -- it was such a mess, that I tried to keep it down to small edits. In any case, semi-protected all three articles for a month, thanks to the IP-hopping edit warrior. --] (]) 22:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|BittersweetParadox}} | |||
| :Who submitted this report? Did they discuss it with the people they are complaining about? Did they report this discussion to them as is required? Have they read ] and ]? ] (]) 22:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| This user is persistently ]ing throughout most of their edits that aren't dealing with categories or redirects, see for example: | |||
| ::An IP who doesn't know the rules, give them a break. They were in good faith trying to clear a BLP issue, as it seems. Or adding the opposite POV, it wasn't quite clear to me either. Anyway, POV reverted properly, articles protected, problem solved.--] (]) 22:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
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| * (unexplained citation removal as well) | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| I have also ] regarding this, but they have seemingly chosen to ignore that warning, as they are still continuing with the same behavior: | |||
| === This is an IP hopper, blocked 3 times under another IP, and way over 3RR === | |||
| * | |||
| I'm really annoyed at myself for not seeing this last night. The IP reporting this is {{user|98.71.0.146}}, who has posted similar complaints at AIV and the NPOV noticeboard. He is also clearly {{user|98.122.100.249}}, already blocked 3 times this year and who evidently has also been using {{user|68.222.236.154}} on other articles, is clearly also {{user|74.243.205.109}}. He is way over 3RR and I was going to report him this morning here as I couldn't protect or block myself being involved in the articles. As Sarekof Vulcan says above, this is simply an edit-warrior trying to game the system by using multiple IPs. He's also been hitting ] with his IPs, which probably needs protection as well. ] (]) 06:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
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| * | |||
| This is also not the first time the issue has been brought up to the user, as they were previously warned in ], where even after claiming to understand the issue/say they won't do it again, . With their ignoring of warnings regarding overlinking, it unfortunately appears that an ANI discussion may be the only way to solve this ongoing issue, apart from a block. ] (]) 17:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Yeah, it was hard to tell who was reverting to what on those articles, with 2 opposite POV's being pushed and so many ip's. I don't think anyone is going to hold it against you when you act against such blatant POV pushing and 3RR violations.--] (]) 19:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks. I am glad Sarek looked a bit more closely though. ] (]) 20:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Overlinking still continuing on despite this ANI (), and even with an administrator , continues on with their edits/ignoring this ANI. The user is not appearing to want to ] whatsoever, and some of their communication over issues in the past does not bode well as well (). | |||
| == ] == | |||
| :They are adding many uses of , despite the usage instructions saying that the template should '''''not''''' be used in prose text. I really am not sure what more there is to do here, as any attempts at communicating with the user does virtually nothing. ] (]) 20:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{ping|BittersweetParadox}} It's rather insulting to state you'll comment here and then continue to overlink . Please stop editing like this until you can address the above concerns. Rgrds. --] (]) 07:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|Liz}} Apologies for the ping, but could there please be some assistance here?... As BX stated above, despite their only communication thus far since this ANI (being a simple, "ok"), they have still continued overlinking- now overlinking '''''even more''''' since BX's comment above: . I'm really not sure what more there is that can be done here apart from a block, as it appears this is just going to continue on, no matter what anyone says here or on their talk page. ] (]) 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==Repeated pov pushing == | |||
| {{resolved|Page has been deleted. --] (]) 22:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{atop|This is a content dispute and ANI is not the venue to resolve those. {{U|Hellenic Rebel}}, you've had multiple editors tell you that you are not correct. Please take the time to understand why. ] ] 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{user|RayGunsAreNotJustTheFuture}} has not edited anything other than their User or Talk pages since May of 2009, but yet they continue to edit their User page apparently for some non-WP purpose. Their Talk page was deleted in July due to it not having anything to do with Misplaced Pages. I asked on their Talk page what they were doing, but they ignored my question and continued to edit their User page. ] (]) 22:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ] , despite the disagreements, continues to try to impose his personal opinion, for which he cannot cite any source that justifies him. Clearly original research. | |||
| :Page deleted, user blocked. ] (]) 22:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have to admit i'm curious what rayguns are if they're not just the future. ] (]) 22:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| :: ''see the related thread a bit north at ]'' | |||
| Someone please semi my talk page for a while, please? See the anon shite landing there; the fuckwits have lock the orange bar to 'on'. fyi, this may-well be related to the incident with ] about 12 hours ago; it's discussed at ], above. All the quotes are off his user page. Cheers, ] 22:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : May be resolved; ]'s semi'd and reverted. Cheers, ] 22:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : per , ] shares my suspicion. Cheers, ] 22:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Nope, I saw a thread on /b/ specifically asking for your userpage to be hit. —<font color="32CD32">'']''</font> <font color="4682B4"><sup>(] ])</sup></font> 05:11, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| You're not a big fan of ] are you Jack? This guy thinks he's ]. The quotes are from ], and in some incarnations the Joker's real name is Jack Napier. ] (]) 22:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| See also, talk with ] ] (]) 19:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Replying since I've been tagged. I do think this is a behavioural issue rather than a content one. User has been repeatedly warned on their talk page by several users about edits to the article in question but has belligerently refused to engage in constructive discussion about said edits. | |||
| ::Oh dear. Aren't you the lucky one. ] (]) 23:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :User was clearly warned about continuing this in the closure message of the last ANI discussion not to resume the edits but the response on the article's talk page was notably dismissive of said warning. | |||
| :Quite honestly I think this is a case of ]. The user in question has just plead that they have special knowledge we don't and has steadfastly refused to demonstrate in reliable sources the contents of their edits. Despite being informed of how consensus works they have resorted to counting votes and even in that case just dismissing the views of those against him for contrived reasons. ] (]) 19:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: My friends, anonymous user and @], and also dear user and adminis that are going to see the previous POVs. The article had a specific version, which you decided to dispute by causing a correction war, that could easily be seen at the . The administrator in order to reach to a consensus, which obviously couldn't happen, and there was no corresponding participation. Four users in all, the two of us presented our arguments in favor of the original version, Rambling Rambler (and somewhat monotonously and without proper documentation, the anonymous user) presented yours for the version without seats. At the end, you threw in an ad-hominem against me, to top it off. You made a call, no one else did anything, time passed. What makes you believe that the article will remain in your version, while the original was the previous one and there was no consensus?<br/>P.S.: Rambling Rambler, please stop bombing links to wikipedia policies and then trying to interpret them and "fit" them to the issue. This practice resembles clickbait, you are simply trying to show that you are knowledgeable about politics and appear superior, and this is annoying. ] (]) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] an admin locked the page, and then anybody respond even if we make pings. That means that they just locked the page because there was an edit war, and and no one dealt with the article. The discussion ended weeks ago and also you've made a public call. If somebody wanted, they would have closed the discussion. So I don't think it's a case of IDHT, because the time intervals in which someone could engage (either to participate in the discussion, or an administrator to close it) had exceeded the normal. ] (]) 19:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm not going to reopen the content aspect of this here. I have made you aware, '''repeatedly''', of our polices when it comes to including claims. You need to provide reliable sources and the burden is on those wanting to include challenged statements to meet consensus to include them. You have now just admitted there is no consensus yet you felt entitled to reintroduce challenged material. | |||
| ::::This is precisely a "I don't have to" issue. ] (]) 19:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Also tagging @] as they probably have a view on this given their previous action. ] (]) 19:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@] I will prove you that you actually interpret policies as you see fit, and you don't pay attention to what they say. ]:<br/> Sometimes, editors perpetuate disputes by sticking to a viewpoint long '''after community consensus has decided that moving on would be more productive'''. Believing that you have a valid point does not confer the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told otherwise. '''The community's rejection of your idea is not because they didn't hear you'''. Stop writing, listen, and consider what the others are telling you. Make an effort to see their side of the debate, and work on finding points of agreement. Do not confuse "hearing" with "agreeing with".<br/>You can see the bold parts. It's obvious from those, that this policy does not refer to cases where four user with two different opinions participated. It refers to cases where one or a minority of users refuses to accept the community's decision because they believe their opinion is superior. In our discussion, my version never rejected from the community, it was rejected only by you and the anonymous user. In this case, either you believe that the majority or the community in general is you and the anonymous user, or you are simply trying to propagate your position. ] (]) 20:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You were linked ] during the discussion and clearly acknowledged it. | |||
| :::::: So you are aware of it, which bluntly states: | |||
| ::::::''The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.'' | |||
| ::::::In your previous reply you have admitted that there isn't consensus. | |||
| ::::::You have broken policy and are just once again stubbornly refusing to adhere to it. ] (]) 20:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] There was a long time period in which we did not have any edit in the discussion. The original version was the one with the seats. The admins at that cases, lock the article at a random version (otherwise there should have been a clarification from the admin). So the lack of consensus concerns your own version, not the original one, to which I restored the article. Finally, I need to point out that you have made a series of problematic contributions, such as misguiding users by referring them to Misplaced Pages policies that are not related to the subject as I demonstrated exactly above, but also the ad-hominem against me which you proceeded together with the anonymous user in the article discussion. ] (]) 20:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::This wall of text is the exact problem at hand here. You won't follow our site's policies but instead are just making up your own as to why breaking policy is now fine. The "discussion" was barely dormant and as you admit there was no consensus on including the material you demand be included. Ergo, per policy it can't be included. | |||
| ::::::::Frankly you are incapable of editing in a collaborative manner. I think the fact that you've been blocked repeatedly both here and at our Greek equivalent for disruptive behaviour and edit-warring demonstrates this very well. ] (]) 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::@] The problem here is that you don't understand the policy. The one who needs consensus to make edits, is the one that wants to make a change at the page. In our case, maybe the random version in which the page was locked was your version, but that does not change the fact that you were the one who wanted to make a change. You need consensus, you did not achieved it. Also, that is '''ad-hominem''' again, and now you checked and my greek WP blocks? ] (]) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::It is not ad hominem to bring up your history of blocks for edit warring and disruption when the topic of discussion is your conduct. | |||
| ::::::::::The policy, which I quoted for your benefit, '''literally''' says the onus is on the person who wants to '''include''' the disputed content '''which is you'''. You want this claim to be on the article and myself and others have disputed it. ] (]) 21:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::@] there is not such as disputed content. The party has 5 members affiliated with it, and there is source about it. Your edits where those which need consnensus, because you are the one which want to change the original. ] (]) 21:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::The fact myself and others have said it's not supported and therefore shouldn't be there is literally a dispute... ] (]) 21:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::@] yes it is a dispute, but if there is not a consensus that your dispute is valid, the version that remains is the original one, that is also supported by source. ] (]) 21:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::There has never been a specific version of the article. A few hours after adding the uncited 5 MPs, the edit was undone. It is also worth noting that the original contributor of the addition about mps, Quinnnnnby never engaged in an edit war or challenged our disagreements, as you did. ] (]) 20:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I did, but you also did. So the only user to act properly at that case was @]. And guess with what opinion Quinnnnby agreed at the discussion... ] (]) 20:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{ping|Hellenic Rebel}}, Rambling Rambler is actually right: if you wish to include text which has been disputed, you '''must''' include sourcing. You cannot just attempt to force the content in, regardless of what consensus you believe has been achieved. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 21:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::@] this is exactly why I am saying that the users propagandize: there was a source used! ] (]) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Then it's time to discuss that source on the Talk page ''instead'' of just ramming into the article. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@] there was a discussion on the page. The source states that 5 MPs of the Hellenic Parliament are in the new party. And the users, after their first argument that it should have a parliamentary group was shot down (as it was obvious that this policy is not followed in any party), they moved on to a logic that the source should say verbatim "5 MPs '''stand'''" for the party... ] (]) 21:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@] I have lost hours of my life to "discussing" this at this point. They're entirely either refusing or simply incapable of understanding that because they have sources for Claim A that doesn't mean they can put a similar but still different Claim B on the article. They however insist they can because unlike us they're "Hellenic" and therefore know that Claim A = Claim B while refusing to accept this is ]. ] (]) 21:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Automatic editing, abusive behaviour, and disruptive(ish) wikihounding from ] == | |||
| :::Do a CU. I'm not GRAWP or John254. I just liked the movie and wanted a cool userpage and sig before I started contributing. {{SUBST:User:Jack "Red Hood" Napier/Sig}} 23:51, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|result={{nac}} While {{u|KMaster888}}'s editing history (the original discussion) wasn't inherently bad in itself, their conduct after being questioned about it was bad, violating ], ], ], and ] See , , , , , , , , , and their comments on this thread. Indeffed by {{u|Cullen328}}, and TPA revoked after , another personal attack. ]<sup>]</sup> 02:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ] appears to be making lightning speed edits that are well beyond the capacity of any human to review, in addition to article content that's coming across potentially LLM-like in nature. Since December they've made over 11,000 edits, many across multiple articles within a sixty second window. | |||
| I attempted to ask about the policies around this at ] and was met with a tirade of obscenities and abuse (which I want to give them a slight benefit of the doubt on, I'd be upset at being accused of being a bot if I wasn't): | |||
| :::: I'm sure someone will get around to it. Q: If you're really a n00b, how did you find my code on about your first day here? Not to mention your other other apparent prior wiki-experience… <small>(fuck-me, i just mentioned it;)</small> <span style="background:#eee;background:-moz-radial-gradient(bottom right 90deg,farthest-side,#777,#eee);display:inline-block;padding:.3em 1em .2em;border:1px solid #777;-moz-box-shadow:.1em .1em .5em rgba(0,0,0,.6);-moz-border-radius:1em;">] 00:02, 17 February 2010 (UTC)</span> | |||
| :::::(ec)I never said I was a n00b. This account is a legitimate sock puppet account of a user who hasn't edited in some time. When I decided to come back to WP, I decided it would be better to leave the old account behind. I will reveal the name of the account to any interested admins via email, but would like the account name to be kept off-wiki. {{SUBST:User:Jack "Red Hood" Napier/Sig}} 00:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: I'll leave it to the mop-brigade to sort-out; they get paid for this sort of shite. Anyway, if you were to disclose to me and it was all-good, I'd apologize and keep my mouth shut. I'd also disclose the sekret of <tt>height; 1%;</tt> ] 00:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::No, you didn't like me back then. ;) But it is tempting to learn what that <tt>height; 1%;</tt> does... {{SUBST:User:Jack "Red Hood" Napier/Sig}} 00:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: So, we *are* acquainted. For what it's worth, I do get along well with some now whom I previously did not. As a sign of my good faith: it's an IE6 hack to make relative position work for bottom and right. ] 00:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| From ]: | |||
| :''You should also not, as User:B, engage in disputes you engaged in as User:A—whether about articles, project-space issues, or other editors—without making clear that you are the same person.'' | |||
| Please enlighten us. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 01:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : I didn't. I was just setting up my userpage and sig when Jack came in all on his own. And, FWIW, I have no dispute with Jack. It always seemed to be the other way around, though I may be wrong. ] (]) 01:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| As far as I can tell this peaked with a total of 89 edits in a four minute window between 08:27 to 08:31 on December 28, 2024. Most are innocuous, but there are content edits thrown in the mix and recent articles were written in a way that indicates it may be an LLM ( not definitive, though if you are familiar with LLM output this may ring some alarm bells, but false alarms abound). | |||
| :: *Right* — ''I'm a serial-harasser, you're just a victim.'' Jeers, ] 02:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Crazy idea Jack "Red Hood" Napier: Go edit articles. If you want all of this to go away stop posting here, stop posting at Merridew's talk page, and edit articles. You've wasted a lot of time for someone with 13 edits to the actual encyclopedia. ] 02:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::: A fine idea. nb: ] was missed yesterday. Cheers, ] 02:50, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Following the quite hot thread at ]'s page, it's quite clear that whoever is operating that bot threw my entire edit history into the mix, because the bot systematically edited ''every single article'' that I had edited, ''in reverse order'' (over 100 so far since this came up about an couple of hours ago), going back a reasonable amount of time. | |||
| ; ''Maaf'' : which is Indonesian for ''sorry'' — "Red Hood" is not Grawp or John254, my money's now on ], who reincarnated and Grawp's /b/tards coat-tailed on it. Point for you; fooled me. Cheers, ] | |||
| The problem is that it's clear that a bot was instructed to just make an edit, without concern for what those edits are, so you end up with , , or at a rate far faster than any editor could address. | |||
| This one is easily one of the strangest situations I've ever encountered on Misplaced Pages. ] 20:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::: *Right* — ''I'm a serial-harasser, you're just a victim.'' Jeers, ] 02:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC) - Yes you are, and you have been blocked for it how many times. Your like a cat, eventually your 9 lives will run out. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) </span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :I'm flattered that you've looked into my activity on Misplaced Pages so closely. But if you'd be arsed, you'd understand that it is very simple to do an insource search using a regular expression to find a lot of stylistic errors, like no space after a sentence. If you love being on my back so much, good on you, but I'd wish if you got off. ] (]) 20:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == old problem is back == | |||
| ::1) That doesn't explain how consistently abusive you have been | |||
| ::2) While I'm aware that an overwhelming percentage of the errors you're editing out are ones that can simply be addressed by regex, I'm very clearly raising the content edits as opposed to formatting ones. ] 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :How about we take this off of ANI, of all places? ] (]) 21:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. ] 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Obviously, if there's someone who's making bad decisions on Misplaced Pages (You), I want to check if he has messed up articles. Please tell me what articles you think I have damaged. ] (]) 21:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also, I'd appreciate if you would stop casting aspersions about me being an LLM. ] (]) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. ] 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. ] (]) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::<s>Unless you're doing regex with your eyes, clearly you're using assistance. And the fact you're (still!) doing something that fixes the same type of typo almost as fast as I can click "Random Article" indicates you're doing more than just regex. You're finding these articles somehow.</s> <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 22:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I am doing an "insource" search using regex. ] (]) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. ] (]) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Ah . I wasn't aware one could do that. I retract. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 22:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::And, I would appreciate if you would stop calling my edits strange and odd. ] (]) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You had over 100 edits in a row directily in chronological sequence, from newest to oldest, of my exact edit history excluding wikiprojects and talk pages. I'm allowed to find that a little strange. ] 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Why shouldn't someone call strange and odd edits strange and odd? ] (]) 21:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :@] I suggest you stop with the personal attacks before you get blocked. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that {{u|KMaster888}} should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. ] (]) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. ] (]) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'll just ask you straight up.{{pb}}Do you feel any remorse for this statement? {{tq|remove asshole}} {{pb}}Could you explain why you felt it was best to choose those two words when blanking your talk page? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::And again: {{tq|@The Corvette ZR1 @Tarlby stop clogging up ANI with your comments.}} ]<sup>]</sup> 22:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::, , , , , ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::And this: and this: ] (]) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. ] (]) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You have to abide by the rules like the rest of us. And cool it with the hostile edit summaries. ]] 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::]. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You are clearly ]. Attacking other editors instead of backing off, inappropriate edit summaries, what next? ]<sup>]</sup> 21:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::There ought to be a gossip noticeboard that doesn't clog up ANI. ] (]) 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I will dispute what you said. I AM HERE to build an encyclopedia. Why do you think I would have given 10,000 edits worth of my time if I didn't care? ] (]) 21:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, ] and ] tell me the contrary. ]<sup>]</sup> 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries ''and here'' indicate they're ] in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. ] (]) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: ] over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of ] of the ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. ] (]) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::: is wikilawyering. And this is at ANI, so the discussion is taking place at ANI. Answering the concerns about your conduct that were raised here on here is how you resolve the issue, not "don't talk about it on ANI", as the latter gives the impression of trying to sweep them under the rug - especially since your edit summaries MrOllie linked above make it clear this is very much not "small potatoes". - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Here's some more diffs of KMaster888 being uncivil. From my user talk page. . I think these are forgivable if in isolation since KMaster888 may be frustrated by false accusations of being a bot, but if it's a pattern, it may need addressing. | |||
| :The ] and ] of my user talk page and of this ANI is also a behavioral problem that, if a pattern, may also need addressing. It is disrespectful to interlocutor's time and brainpower to dominate discussions by replying to everything. –] <small>(])</small> 23:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. ] (]) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The problem isn't you responding to those comments. It's about HOW you responded to those comments. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::There are, in fact, {{tqq|specific discussion rules}} - ] and ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Propose indefinite block=== | |||
| {{resolved}} | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked and TPA revoked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 06:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{usercheck|Caro 08}}...no need to say more just see user talk page...I am wondering Y the block was not put back ..small over sight on admins part i guess......tks again guys...] (]) 23:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|KMaster888}} | |||
| ::That was fast thank you!!..user block again!!..] (]) 23:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| They demonstrate a severe inability to interact in the collegiate manner this project requires. The edit summaries are not merely uncivil, but dismissive: ignoring colleagues is worse than just being rude to them. Their behaviour on Novem Linguae's talk pretty much sums it up.{{pb}}Whether they are actually a bot or running a scruipt doesn't really matter: WP:BOTLIKE is pretty cl;ear trhat "it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance". So 10,000 edits or not, the edits smack of being bot/script-generated, and may also be WP:STALKING.{{PB}}I also don't set any store by the excuse for "wiping ass with comments", "improve asinine comment" and "remove asshole" being that {{blue|Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly.}} WMF servers going down (or not) do not cause aggressive edit summaries, and we are not fools. The fact that the same attitude pervades through this discussion—"everyone, get off my back"—suggests that this is default behaviour rather than a one off. ]'']''] 23:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :You're saying "they" like it's more than one person. I am one editor. ] (]) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Not in that sense. We use they/them pronouns as to not assume an editor's gender. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per above reasoning. ]] 23:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Looks like {{noping|Cullen328}} beat us to that indef. ]] 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per ] behavior. Their blank talkpage, on which they encourage discussion, has a nonexistent archive. ]] 23:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:That is not true. The archive page is at the subpage of the talk page, /archive. ] (]) 23:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Support -''' While I wouldn’t have had the same suspicions about their editing as Warren, their extremely uncivil reactions to it and further questions here, along with the further attention they’ve drawn on to prior recent behaviour has effectively demonstrated an unwillingness to engage in meaningful interaction with any other editor who disagrees with them. ] (]) 23:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == SPI followup == | |||
| :Maybe revoke TPA too? This is beyond the pale. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Wow… ] ] 00:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}}I have indefinitely blocked KMaster888 for personal attacks and harassment, and disruptive behavior. ] (]) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :After their latest personal attack, I have revoked their talk page access. ] (]) 23:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. is beyond the pale. This is clearly a person that lets rage get the best of them, and is not responsive to feedback. Not sure if we should close this, or let it play out and turn into a CBAN. –] <small>(])</small> 00:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Good block''' and I'd have done same if you hadn't been here first. Regardless of whether the edits were improvements, no one has the right to treat other editors as KM888 did. ] ] 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Good block''' It'd take a hand-written miracle from God for them to change their ways anytime soon. | |||
| {{seealso|Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#The block of Markweisbrot}} | |||
| :] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 03:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ===Investigating the hounding claim=== | |||
| Since the thread above where this was previously discussed was closed: | |||
| Above, there is a claim that KMaster888 is ] Warrenmck by editing 100 pages that Warrenmck has edited. The suggests that there's only an overlap of 45 pages (42 if you subtract out my user talk, KMaster888's user talk, and ANI). {{u|Warrenmck}}, can you please be very specific about exactly which pages overlap? Maybe give a link to KMaster888's contribs and timestamps of where this range of hounding edits begins and ends? This is a serious claim and probably actionable if enough evidence is provided. –] <small>(])</small> 23:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Note that there are >100 ''edits'' across the pages, since they tended to edit in a spree. The number of pages you found seems accurate, even accounting for the possibility of a few outside of this exchange. I’m not sure what exactly I can do to show the relationship to my edit history beyond I guess go pull said histories and compare them? But I wouldn’t be surprised if the vast majority of the interactions you see were from that narrow window after your talk page. | |||
| ] followup | |||
| :Sorry for the drama, by the way. ] 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| The SPI ] cleared one editor of socking (]); for some reason this editor remains indeffed. The SPI concluded that one editor (]) had created two socks, ] and ] - an excellent example of naive use of checkuser. What kind of sockmaster previously operating with undisclosed COI creates two aliases using the real names of people associated with the relevant articles (hence raising COI issues), and then uses those socks ''entirely'' independently of each other and of the "sockmaster"? It does not take a long look at the edit histories to divine 3 people in the same location. (Given that the accounts have not supported each other in any way, claims of meatpuppetry are so far equally off base - though this would need to be monitored in future.) ] managed to get unblocked, the situation being acknowledged; the other "sock" and supposed "sockmaster" remain blocked. Does anyone feel like, at some convenient time, unblocking these 3 accounts? One exonerated of being a sock by CU, one clearly not a sockmaster, one clearly not a sock and also the author of an OTRS ticket. Anyone? ] <sup>]</sup> 00:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: |
::Ah that makes sense. I didn't think of the multiple edits to a page thing. No worries about the drama. –] <small>(])</small> 02:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| ::Please don't apologise for this. Nobody should have to put up with such behaviour. ] (]) 09:47, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: I would think it more embarassing that someone can get their article cleansed by writing to Wiki OTRS, even though COI and meatpuppetry policies were violated. That would seem to damage Wiki's credibility more than blocking editors who violate policies. There are still outstanding meatpuppetry questions here, but that's for tomorrow. ] (]) 07:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| :::::::As Sandy states, very embarassing. I don't know the situation details enough to point out which act is the most embarassing only to know that Misplaced Pages is getting a black eye. :( or x( ] (]) 15:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :It seems unwise and uncalled for to block a renowned, international journalist, a as well as a contributor to the LA Times and The New York Times, after he's complained via OTRS about the NPOV balance of his BLP here. It is not likely to enhance Misplaced Pages's reputation out there in the real world. | |||
| :I would think differently if there were a pattern of longstanding abuse; but looking at the edits that the {{userlinks|Markweisbrot}} account has made here, I don't see it. Assuming the IP checked out, it seems he used his RL name and sits in the same building as his colleagues, one of whom also used his RL name. | |||
| :By all means, hand out all the appropriate warnings about COI and meatpuppeting and all the rest of it ... but let's also remember that we are hardly in a position to claim the moral high ground on neutral BLPs in general, and this one in particular. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 01:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == User:FMSky == | |||
| :There seems to be a fundamental understanding of Checkuser limitations here; Constitutional1787 may not have been editing from the same IP, but meatpuppetry is meatpuppetry, and they've admitted to that, as well as reverted other editors to add unsourced material to articles. Not to mention that all CUs haven't been run yet. On the other hand, I found it unfortunate that the Weisbrot account was welcomed with no mention of COI issues until I added it. And the fact that he complained to OTRS doesn't make the complaint valid; those articles have largely been edited by CEPR-friendly editors since their inception, providing a strange context for their complaints about the content. We still have Rd232 and JRSP disappearing at a time that Off2riorob and the Brazilian IP took up the same edits. ] (]) 01:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=]. PolitcalPoint blocked for a month for BLP violations. - ] <sub>]</sub> 06:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ::Sandy, they are newbies, probably three guys sitting in an office, and the term "meatpuppetry" most likely means nothing to them. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 01:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{Userlinks|FMSky}} | |||
| ::: I agree, and was troubled that editors welcomed them without explaining the COI issues, but the other problem is that this has been going on for a long time, they don't seem repentant, and although they've been editing the articles for a long time, they're still blaming Misplaced Pages for the content. Someone should explain to them that they should add suggestions to talk pages, and we should still get to the bottom of the coordinated editing across all of these articles. Checkuser can't catch everything, and the statements that Constitional1787 is unrelated demonstrate some lack of understanding of CU. The way the OTRS report has been used to censor content is alarming, and sets a bad precedent. ] (]) 01:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ] has been persistently engaging in ] by constantly reverting (see , , and ) in bad faith over the course of more than a week in order to prevent the insertion of sourced material that states that ] had "{{tq|touted working for her father’s anti-gay organization, which mobilized to pass a measure against ] and promoted controversial ]", which is a discredited, harmful, and ] practice that falsely purports to "cure" ].}}" backed by two ] cited (see and ) in support of the specific wording inserted into the article. | |||
| # Sandy, a glance through JRSP's contribs shows that he disappears for a week or more at a time not infrequently . Also, if you're going to repeatedly raise suspicions, then do add him to the SPI. In fact, throw in Jayen466, User:Pohta ce-am pohtit (who AFD'd a Venezuela article of Sandy's); who else? Let's get some ''fire'' into this witch-hunt already! No-one who does anything Sandy dislikes shall edit unless approved by checkuser! (Which is infallible, because IPs are burned into our foreheads at birth...) | |||
| # You know perfectly well why I tried to semi-retire - and not editing for a week was quite an achievement for me; I was hoping to avoid it til March. But this OTRS mess - including blocking editors from the OTRS ticket-placing organisation as socks, despite this being pretty obviously ridiculous - forced me to start again. The sooner this can be resolved, the sooner I can slip back into semi-retirement and not edit til at least March. | |||
| # Claims that CEPR editors have had a hand in those articles ("this has been going on for a long time, they don't seem repentant, and although they've been editing the articles for a long time, they're still blaming Misplaced Pages for the content.") are without evidence. The only one of the accounts in question to have been around a while (], March 2009) has a grand total of 30 mainspace edits. Looking at editor involvement at ] and CEPR doesn't suggest major IP involvement or undiscovered sock involvement either. | |||
| # "Someone should explain to them that they should add suggestions to talk pages" - Well that's all ] did - and he's still blocked. ] managed to get unblocked, having agreed that. ] said the same but is still blocked. | |||
| # No evidence of meatpuppetry for ]. The unblock requests from the Markweisbrot/Kriswarner/Scalabrine CEPR guys do not mention him; ] is pretty clear in only referring to those 3 accounts. Constitutional made 5 edits to ] before being blocked; those reverts came over 24 hours after Scalabrine's last involvement, so no impact on 3RR. This user was cleared by checkuser, and like all the blocked users mentioned here, has still not even received a block message such that they can properly request an unblock. ] <sup>]</sup> 09:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I've added block messages to the relevant user talk pages such that they can request unblocking. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: Rd232, do you honestly fail to see how attacking, accusatory, assuming bad faith, and disruptive your posts are? Are you going to continue attacking me across multiple noticeboards, are you going to retire, or would you like to stop attacking, start assuming good faith, and actually engage the first step in dispute resolution, which is your or my talk page, without removing my conciliatory posts from your talk page or refusing to discuss with me because you're going on Wikibreak? Your post above is full of bad faith and wasting everyone's time here, and you are misusing noticeboards to air your vendetta against me (although you don't seem to have noticed that no one else is buying your attempts to discredit me). ] (]) 16:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| For my part, I have consistently maintained a strict self-imposed policy of 0RR, never even once reverting ], listening to his concerns and taking his concerns seriously, tirelessly working to address his concerns with two ] cited (see and ) in support of the exact same wording that ] originally objected to (see ), then, when reverted again by ], I patiently continued to ] and ] (see and ), which he ], then when reverted yet again by ] (see ), explained to him the entire series of events (see ), which ] replied to by blatantly lying that I had not addressed his concerns (see ), which, when I pointed that out and showed him the ] that I cited in order to address his concerns (see ), ] replied by saying verbatim "How is that even relevant? Just because something is mentioned in a source doesn't mean this exact wording is appropriate for an encyclopedia." (see ). | |||
| == User:Serbs75 == | |||
| I'm completely exasperated and exhausted at this point. If even using the ''exact same wording'' as the ] cited in support of the specific wording inserted into the article is ''still'' unacceptable to ], then I'm not sure what I'm even supposed to do to satisfy him. ] is clearly engaging in ] in bad faith and is ]. --] (]) 23:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{Resolved|{{Vandal|Serbs75}} blocked indefinitely by Tan. -''']''' <sup><small>]</small></sup></span> 08:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)}} | |||
| :@], your for "discredited, harmful, and pseudoscientific practice that falsely purports to "cure" homosexuality" doesn't mention Gabbard or Hawaii or her father's organization. Have you read ]? ] ] 23:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] only has a few edits, but they are exactly the same edits as ], which have been repeatedly reverted by a variety of editors. The nature of the edits is to rewrite a portion of the article (generally adding grammatical and/or factual errors, such as in one case ,"dead on arrival" became "dead at the scene") and then remove the source the original information came from. The IP was blocked earlier for 12h, and clearly the user creation is an attempt to evade a further block for a little while. Can someone take care of this? ] (]) 03:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::More the case that trying to assert conversion therapy as discredited is a COATRACK, unless there was appropriate sourced coverage that associated Gabbatd with supporting a discredited theory. We can leave the blue link on conversion therapy carry the worry of explaining the issues with it, it doesn't belong on a BLP.<span id="Masem:1736293194333:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators'_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt"> — ] (]) 23:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)</span> | |||
| :Indefblocked. ] | ] 03:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::The wording does not "imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources" as the latter part of the wording, as supported by the second ] (see ), explains what ] is for the benefit of readers. --] (]) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Are you kidding me lmao. I didn't even notice that. That makes it even worse --] (]) 23:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Only commenting on this particular angle: {{ping|Schazjmd}} when dealing with fringe ideas, it ''is'' sometimes the case that sources provide weight connecting the subject to a fringe idea but which do not themselves adequately explain the fringe theory. If it's due weight to talk about something like conversation therapy (or creation science, links between vaccines and autism, etc.), we run afoul of ] if we don't provide proper context. These cases are rare, however, and this isn't a judgment about anything in the rest of this thread. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 02:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The user was previously blocked and was only unblocked after agreeing to 0RR on BLPs. This was violated in the 3 reverts here and the concerns weren't adressed: , , . See also the previous discussion on PoliticalPoint's talk page that I initiated -- ] (]) 23:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{tq|FMSky replied by saying verbatim "How is that even relevant? Just because something is mentioned in a source doesn't mean this exact wording is appropriate for an encyclopedia.}} I love how you, in bad faith, left out the most relevant part that I added: "And the statements weren't even attributed to someone" --] (]) 23:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::As ] (see ), those were edits, not reverts, over the course of more than week, and as also ] (see and ) your concerns with the wording were in fact addressed with two ] cited in support with the ''exact same wording'' that you objected to, verbatim. You are blatantly lying again, as the statement is, in fact, attributed to Gabbard herself as it is she herself who "touted working for her father's anti-gay organization", which is backed by the first ] (see ). --] (]) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No, these were reverts, as the wording I originally objected to was restored numerous times --] (]) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Those were edits over the course of over a week. The wording that you originally objected to was restored only with two ] that use the ''exact same wording'' verbatim. --] (]) 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::If you used the same wording as the sources without an attributed quote you've committed a copyright violation. ] (]) 00:16, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Restoring removed content even without using the undo feature is a revert. ] (]) 00:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::See above, Gabbard isn't even mentioned in one of the sources, which is insane and negates the need for any further discussion. This content should not be on her page & is probably the definition of a BLP violation. --] (]) | |||
| Besides removing obvious SYNTH, I notice that FMSky reworked unnecessary overquoting; looks like good editing on FMSky's part. ] (]) 00:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ] - racial slur and harassment == | |||
| Another thing I just noticed is that the article is special-protected: {{tq|"You must follow the bold-revert-discuss cycle if your change is reverted. You may not reinstate your edit until you post a talk page message discussing your edit and have waited 24 hours from the time of this talk page message."}} No such discussion was initiated on Gabbard's talk page --] (]) 00:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{User5|Jpatokal}} | |||
| *I have blocked PoliticalPoint for a month for BLP violations, an escalation of their prior two-week edit warring block. I had originally intended to just p-block them from Gabbard but I am not convinced they understand the issue and that the problematic editing wouldn't just move to another page. Should they eventually request an unblock I think serious discussion sould happen w/r/t a a topic ban on BLPs or American Politics. ] ] 01:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *], ] | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| *] | |||
| Although I've tried to resolve the titled matter at my best with great patience, I think this ongoing persistent harassment by {{user|Jpatokal}} needs to be administrative actions. I've requested admin, {{user|Rjanag}} first for intervention, but he is inactive. First off, a new user named {{User|Gavinhudson}} inserted citations to two Korean related articles. However, since it included a commercial link and unreliable personal site, I reverted the edit with an edit summary to request "direct quotation". The commercial site does not show anything about the book which seems to be written in Korean per the publisher's name and location, so visited his talk page to resolve the issue. During the discussion with him, I apologized him for being hard on his sources due to the history of two articles. I believe Gavinhudson settled down well on his sources | |||
| == User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating ] == | |||
| The user did not restored his edit to one article, but the next day, {{user|Jpatokal}} reverted my edit which is fine with me since the source is clarified except his edit summary. He accused me of assuming bad faith and accusing of the source "fraudulent". Another user reverted his edit, and Jpatokal edit warred to restore it. The both did not seem to know of the yesterday's discussion. As Jpatokal opened a discussion with a scornful message, I explained my stance and let him know of the discussion with Gavinhudson as well as asking for ]. Jpatokal's accusations are against his catch-22 for AGF. | |||
| *{{userlinks|Bgsu98}} | |||
| Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.<br /> | |||
| The matter only remains a minor issue, but like '']]''. The slander also has nothing to do with the discussion with Jpatokal and me. I took strong offense, not only because he has bashed me by linking the totally irrelevant case and lying about me, but also his mocking of me with ], national food is used for smearing Koreans. It is the same as insulting people from Latin America with the slur, ]. I reverted his inappropriate ]ing comment to slander me. Then he reverted by saying that the removal is not my right. I visited his talk page about his behaviors, but he was repeatedly bullying me there as if he were a commander to me, or a holly ]. Jpatokal absurdly has demanded me to apologize to him for calling his harassment "racist" and reverting the bogus accusation and to Gavinhudson (I already apologized to him and that is not his business). He even mocked my English ability not understanding his pun. He also determined to mark me with an unwarranted ] even though he ''finally'' acknowledged his '''lying about me''' but still mocked me with a past irrelevant of him and of this issue. I think this blatant harassment mixed with racist attacks warrant a block of {{User|Jpatokal}}. As aforementioned, I've seen some troll blocked for the comment like Banana republic. I'm not sure why Jpatokal decided to attack me but the policies ] is clear. The user was also previously warned for disruptive edit warring to the questioned article which led a page protection and warning to him and his opponents. Thank for reading this.--] 03:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I noticed an editor named {{u|Bgsu98}} who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by ] before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)<br />I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at ]. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought. | |||
| I should note that {{u|Bgsu98}} doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated ] (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (]). One can really wonder why he does this. | |||
| : The entirety of the "racist accusation" in question here is "Please take any advice from him with a liberal dose of kimchi." The grammatical object of the sentence here is "advice", and "with a liberal dose of kimchi" modifies the advice; ergo, Caspian blue is not being called anything at all here. | |||
| P.S. More information is here: ]. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of ]. It seems that no one acted on this change until {{u|Bgsu98}} came. | |||
| : I stated that Caspian blue has "a history of bans for getting out of hand about Korean topics", and I stand by that statement (see ). However, while the original ANI was about edit warring between Caspian blue and Sennen goroshi on both Korean and Japanese topics, the eventual half-year topic ban imposed on Caspian blue was limited to Japanese topics. I have made this clarification on both and . | |||
| P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time. | |||
| : Incidentally, I would welcome views from ANI about whether removing another user's comments from another user's Talk page is acceptable behavior. As we all know, ] enshrines a user's right to delete anything they like from their ''own'' page, but in this case CB repeatedly removed my comments from Gavin's pages without consent from either of us. ] (]) 04:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Removing blatant ] and ] including bogus accusations are allowed and you broke all of them. You admitted you have lied about me that I've been topic-banned from editing Korean topics. Moreover, you who has a history of disrupting the article with muliple edit warring has no right to ] about my past irrelevant of you and the topic. The ban was originally proposed by me against {{User|Sennen goroshi}}'s Wikistalking and other all sorts of thing, not edit warring as you falsely accuse '''again'''. The user has used sockpuppetry and harassed me again, so blocked for one month. I have only a couple of interactions with Jpatokal outside the matter like regarding ] at ] and Wiktionary for Chinese cuisine subjects, so I'm really wondering why this user is harassing me.--] | |||
| P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while {{u|Bgsu98}} has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (). --] (]) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Personal attacks and other comments that grossly violate wikipedia rules are subject to removal from others' talk pages. A talk page is not "owned" by the user. It has some content restrictions. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 05:02, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Also, I'm guessing the Kimshi comment is somewhat like advising a black American to go eat some watermelon. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 05:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Please do take a look at the comment in context -- do you really consider this a personal attack? ] (]) 05:27, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::It's ethnic stereotyping. Maybe you thought you were being funny. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 05:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I do think it is funny, but that's because the original bone of contention, namely ], is a Korean topic. I neither know nor care about Caspian's ethnicity, and I still fail to see how any of this constitutes a personal attack. Or how would you feel about "Please take any advice from him with a liberal dose of ''salt''"? ] (]) 07:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::"grain of salt" is the base expression, obviously. About a Scotsman, you might say "dose of haggis". About an Irishman you might say "dose of corned beef". However, they speak English natively, in general, and would likely get the joke. You have to keep in mind that many of wikipedia's contributors are not native English speakers and might be inclined to take an intended joke literally. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 12:23, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @] or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @] who is nominating based on community consensus. ] ] 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Note''' I removed {{user|Jpatokal}}'s deliberate and more intensified gross personal attack as treating me like a criminal. I wonder how come this kind of a verbally abusive editor have been allowed to edit. -] 07:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **My question has been to remove all reference to your name. ] (]) 07:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::"''However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules.''"<br />— They don't meet ], but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet ]. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require ], so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.<br />(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --] (]) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ***So you're removing my "valid" comment directing your ANI report due to your harassment without my permission. Isn't it contradictory to your insistence so far? --] 12:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{re|Star Mississippi|Liz}} A ], a deletion review? Is it maybe possible to undelete "]" (])? Cause I was searching for sources for ] and found something like a short biography of hers, two paragraphs long.<br />Here: .<br />And again, it was {{u|Bgsu98}} who nominated the article back in May. And he was told, I'm quoting ]: "''There are a whole bunch of similarly deficient nominations. Really, such blanket nominations without evidence of WP:BEFORE and consideration of WP:ATD should be all procedurally kept as WP:SKCRIT#3 given lack of a valid deletion rationale''." --] (]) 23:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *After reading all the text here and links elsewhere, I see more insensitivity than harassment going on. Jpatokal, asking for a good faith contributor's "rap sheet" doesn't promote a healthy, cooperative working environment. Neither does making a joke that some would consider racially/ethnically charged. I think most of the drama here would end if you could just put yourself in somebody else's position and consider how you might feel if you were them, and act accordingly. ] (]) 07:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::After looking at ], I think no one will say that I was incorrect about how people vote at AfD. There's even a comment like this: "WP:NSKATE lists some very clear criteria for inclusion, which this article does not meet." And then a more experienced user noted that you should actually search for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but no one actually searched and the article was deleted. --] (]) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **Thanks for your opinion, but I'm a little befuddled at what you would have expected me to do differently. Caspian blue took offense at a throwaway quip of mine, partly since he is not a native speaker of English and seems to have misunderstood it as a personal insult. I attempted to explain several times that it's a joke and not even intended at him, and even apologized for not stating the scope of his topic ban last year more clearly; his response was to delete my explanation, accuse me of racist attacks, slander and even vandalism , and now escalate this molehill into a mountain here on ANI. And here we are, wasting everybody's time. Whee? ] (]) 09:39, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: I have also found an interview with ]: . Yes, it is an interview, but there an editorial paragraph about her (an introductiion). There also a short paragraph here → . Not much, but considering she competed almost 20 years ago... --] (]) 00:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ***Even if {{User|Jpatokal}} were a native English speaker (his English is not like ordinary English speakers'), that does not excuse Jpatokal's verbal abuses and poor behaviors. Two uninvolved editors here do not say that his comments are funny nor appropriate. The clearly targeted verbal attacks are not a throwaway quip and none of native English speakers on Misplaced Pages speaks like you except vandals and trolls. Jpatokal harassment and personal attacks have wasted everyone's time indeed. Jpatokal should apologize to me and people here for his ill behaviors. That comment accompanying with the mocking and interrogating is not an sincere apology for his vicious verbal abuses about me and spreading the false info to another editor. Perhaps, this incident is just a tip of iceberg about who Jpatokal is and how weak the Misplaced Pages system is by having allowed this kind of editors survived for years. So ]'s abuses of Misplaced Pages are currently being "enshrined" at ANI as a . From my observation, I've seen people like Jpatokal who always deserve what they deserve in the end, so I don't worry even if Jpatokal is getting out of any sanction at this moment. --] 12:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes @] you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @] provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. ] ] 14:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes @] you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @] provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. ] ] 14:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Okay. --] (]) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. ] ] 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates ], otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no ] research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".<br />Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping {{u|BeanieFan11}} and {{u|Doczilla}}. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --] (]) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::When closing one AfD, I made some observations about that day's many AfDs and noted in that one close regarding Bgsu98: "The nominator's burst of dozens of nominations within half an hour failed to stimulate any discussion about many of them." In my meager opinion, the massive number of rapid deletion nominations rather strongly might suggest, at the very least, a lack of due diligence regarding each and a likely violation of WP:BEFORE. ] <sub>]</sub> 07:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :] claims to be polite, yet wrote : ''"random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom"''. Pinging ] who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time. | |||
| :He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From ]: ''"By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated ] 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"'' | |||
| :I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. ] seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. ] ] 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*C'mon, ], civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*:I apologize, ]; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. ] ] 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*Here's my take, ]. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @] to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @] I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @] is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @] and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @] ] (]) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*::Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while {{u|Bgsu98}} directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)<br />Also, a note to admins: Can it be that {{u|Bgsu98}} finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".<br />And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --] (]) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::@] I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @] pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @], making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @]'s comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. ] (]) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::: I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --] (]) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::: Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::: According to , "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::::@] | |||
| :::*:::::Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people." | |||
| :::*:::::No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion. | |||
| :::*:::::If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep. | |||
| :::*:::::I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon. | |||
| :::*:::::All the best to everyone involved. ] (]) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::] wrote the following in his original complaint: ''”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.”'' I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met ], the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. ] ] 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*::::OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --] (]) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...<p>(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.<p>(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's ''exactly'' the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.<p>(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. ] 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --] (]) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::“Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. ] ] 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria ({{tq|What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.}}), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. — | |||
| :] (]) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a ]. ] (]) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ] (]) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == OscarMilde == | |||
| * I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often ''really'' poor; many are simply {{tq|Non-notable figure skater}}, which doesn't say much of anything. ] (]) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. ] ] 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::And @], you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — ] ] 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at ]. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --] (]) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide ] for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created '''seventeen years ago''' -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. ] 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::: The nominator has agreed to slow down, so the point is kind of moot, but I still wanted to make clear: Ravenswing, 45 AFDs rapidly is ridiculous, especially when next-to-no-BEFORE is done and there previously was no indication of stopping – remember that there's only a few editors in the topic area – ''and'' many of these, which are notable, require more than simple Google searches to find the coverage that demonstrates notability (i.e., for many, the coverage would be in places such as difficult-to-find offline newspapers in foreign languages) – making so many nominations rapidly without appropriate searches will inevitably result in some truly notable ones being deleted due to the lack of effort. While ''you'' may not care about the stubs, others do, and simply because the two editors who drive-by to the nom and say "Delete per above" didn't find coverage absolutely does not equate to the subject being confirmed non-notable. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Actually, I have attempted to do something yesterday. I voted and commented on two nominations. ("]" and "]".) Cause these two are Russian figure skaters, and I know they are famous enough. Immediately a user came and wholesale dismissed all the sources I found. I don't really want to play that game, it's too tiresome. I have found another source for Alexandra Ievleva just now. Let's see what the outcome will be.<br />But really, I can't do it anymore. Maybe if these were articles I created, I would invest into searching for sources. Now, I just tried a little bit and saw that some people really want to delete these articles for whatever reason. There are a few people actually searching for sources at some nominations, but mostly it's just that old "you go and provide third-party reliable sources independent of the subject, so I can look at them and dismiss them" game.<br />Okay, people will say I am the bad person here, but I have actually tried to save a couple of articles. I don't understand why people so eagerly want to delete articles than can actually be kept. (Okay, there are mostly interviews and short news about the figure skaters placing here and there or missing some events, but those sources are reliable enough. And one can actually take the sources into account and leave the articles be.)<br />By the way, I have tried searching on what was once ], but the news search doesn't work anymore. (.) There's nothing prior to 2024 when Yandex sold its assets including the news engine. And I can remember when the list of news articles there went back to 2003 or so... --] (]) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::What I’m reading is that you don’t like how AfD works, and there hasn’t been any departure from normal processes. ANI is not the appropriate venue to discuss these issues. ] (]) 10:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I'm sorry if this looks like a ramble. These were initially two or three separate replies. --] (]) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{Od}} ...{{Tpq|editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes}}. Just curious if you or anyone else honestly believes that the opinions of these editors takes priority over the view held in the real world that six million articles falls substantially short of "the sum of all human knowledge". contained the following statement: "According to one estimate, the sum of human knowledge would require 104 million articles". I know some of you are in serious denial and will try to suppress this as a result, but I'm gonna keep saying it anyway. We don't have the sum of all human knowledge, nor are we trying to achieve it. At best, we're the sum of what Google and legacy media has spoon-fed you today within the past X number of years.]/]/] (posted 00:37, January 9, 2025 UTC) | |||
| :RadioKAOS, I'm not going to argue about whose "view takes priority" in the area of the sum of human knowledge but in an AFD discussion, decisions are made by determining the consensus of the editors who bothered to show up and present compelling policy-based arguments. That is typically editors who are active on Misplaced Pages and have an opinion about an article, not any scholar coming up with estimates on the necessary number of articles we should have. How many AFDs do you participate in on a regular basis? And there is no one here that who will attempt to "suppress" your argument. As long as you are not personally attacking any editors, I think you are free to have whatever opinions you do have about this project. No penalty. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :(nods) Heck, "some authority" came up with canards such as that we all ought to take 10,000 steps a day, drink eight glasses of water a day, and that our basal body temps are all 98.6. I likewise decline to bow before the suspect, threadbare wisdom of "one estimate" that we need 104,000,000 articles ... speaking of serious denial. (grins) ] 07:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{user|OscarMilde}} was recently blocked for POV pushing and disruptive editing on ] and other similar topics. Upon returning from a week-long block, his first three mainspace edits were blanking sections of the article | |||
| :: {{re|Ravenswing}}, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.<br />And when I found another source, you said that there were "3 sentences" while there were actually 7.<br />I've looked at your contributions, you don't look like someone who can read Russian or has any interest in figure skating. So why are you doing this? (Okay, you can have the articles, you won.) --] (]) 16:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| and inserting the "homosexual agenda" link to the article, which he's done at multiple locations before without consensus. Could an admin drop him a line, a trout, or a cluebat, please? Thanks in advance. ] (]) 05:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please be careful with the ], Moscow Connection. --] 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Okay. --] (]) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Potential company editing? == | |||
| : Removing a dead link is not "page blanking." If there are links to gay rights/equality and other pro-SSM arguments, why not for opponents of SSM as well? Isn't SSM a main agenda of gay activists? What is strange is that repeatedly, the majority of people world wide is opposed to SSM, (but not necessarily against gay rights or civil unions) but you would not beleive it reading this article. Seems that there are a group of pro SSM editors who act entitled to edit the article as their own turf. ] (]) 05:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Closing by OP request. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|Bouchra Filali}} | |||
| *{{articlelinks|Djellaba}} | |||
| The user ] uploaded ] to the page ]. They share a name with a fashion company and seem to have replaced the original image on the article with a product from their company (see revision 1268097124]). I reverted their edit and warned them, but due to my concern, and following advice from an administrator on the wikimedia community discord, I am reporting this here as well. I have also asked for advice on what to do with the commons file, and will be filing any necessary reports there. ] 04:49, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :They have only made one edit on this project which was adding an image to an article, it looks like they uploaded the image on the Commons. Have you tried talking about your issues with them on their Commons user talk page, ]? This doesn't seem like it's a problem for the English Misplaced Pages. We don't even know if they'll be back to make a second edit. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I asked the commons folks on discord and it seems that, since they uploaded an image that they own, all is well. I have to admit that I was a little hasty here, I've never used this noticeboard before. Feel free to close this if you feel there is nothing more to discuss, I'll monitor the user in question. ] 06:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == User:Smm380 and logged out editing == | |||
| :: Since you've been blocked twice recently (and had your talk page disabled for comments in this same area), I've advised you to go to the talk pages first, rather than wade in with a ]. ] (]) 05:40, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|Smm380}} | |||
| :::User needs to be blocked indefinitely for vandalism. <font face="Kristen ITC">] ]</font> 05:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *{{IPlinks|195.238.112.0/20}} | |||
| I have this editor twice about logged out editing because they are evidently editing the article ] both logged in and as an IP. This makes tracking their edits more difficult since they have made hundreds altogether in recent months (and they are only focused on this specific article). The IP edits seem to come from ] (at least most of them) and they are often made shortly before/after Smm380 decides to log back in. See for example edit by Smm380 and edit by the IP a few minutes later regarding the same section. This is now especially a problem because they are deciding to make as an IP. | |||
| In general, they have not listened to prior warnings. I have given them multiple warnings about adding unsourced text, but they are still continuing to unsourced text without including citations first. But they have not responded to any of my warnings or explained why they are still doing this. ] (]) 09:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Getting tired of reverting this user's vandalism -- ] (]) 06:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I noticed the concerns raised regarding edits made both from my account and an IP address, and I’d like to clarify that this was neither intentional nor malicious. I simply forgot to log into my account while making those edits. | |||
| : More edits from this user now on ] here and here where in spite of the comments directed towards them on the talk page, they claim consensus. ] (]) 07:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I apologize if this caused any confusion. My sole intention was to improve content related to Ukrainian history, a topic I am deeply passionate about. | |||
| :Regarding the delayed response to your messages, I sincerely apologize. I hadn’t noticed the notifications until recently, as I was unfamiliar with how Misplaced Pages’s messaging system works. Now that I understand it better, I’ll ensure to respond more promptly in the future. | |||
| :I truly appreciate the valuable work you do to maintain the quality and reliability of Misplaced Pages. I will make sure to contribute responsibly and stay logged in during my future edits. ] (]) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Another not here IP == | |||
| :Coming back from that block and having had his Talk page protected, to start editing like that now, should lead to an immediate indef. block. ] (]) 07:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{User|2601:18C:8183:D410:1D8C:39C9:DCEE:1166}} is altering another users posts to insert political commentary ] as well as making PA's, with a clear statement they do not intend to stop ], and edit warring over it as well. ] (]) 14:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Now past 3rr reinsertion of their alteration of another users post. So its now vandalism. ] (]) 14:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I would support doing an indef block. I won't take action myself since I issued a previous block for 3RR on 8 February. This editor views Misplaced Pages as a soapbox, and openly argues he is working against 'homosexual activists,' with so much enthusiasm that he in an unblock request. ] (]) 20:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have blocked and tagged them as a sock of DavidYork71, per WP:DUCK. ] (]) 21:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| As well as this tit for tat report ]. ] (]) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Gibnet.com (not gibnews.net) == | |||
| :IP blocked for edit warring. --] 14:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * {{LinkSummary|Gibnet.com}}<br/> | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| * ] | |||
| Following on from this discussion at the and this previous discussion here about a different site this user is operating (gibnews.net), I would like to know whether gibnet.com should be blacklisted (as there is clearly some self-promotion and campaigning going on here) or whether I should just go around and clean up the links to it? Gibnews' claims that he wrote the code but not the content clearly do not apply to ''this'' site, and he did not admit to that in the discussion above. <span style="font-size:80%;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">]<sup> ]</sup></span> 10:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :You might check out ]. If you're willing to remove them all that would be quite helpful. A note to the user who added that they are all being removed per the RSN discussion is also recommended so if they insist on re-adding the next steps are clear to all concerned. ] 10:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Heritage Foundation planning to doxx editors == | |||
| == Petronella Wyatt == | |||
| {{atop|result=Closing to prevent a split discussion. The most central discussion about this is currently held at ]. —] 22:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| See ]. Various sources are beginning to report on this, see , . It seems they plan to “identify and target Misplaced Pages editors abusing their position by analyzing text patterns, usernames, and technical data through data breach analysis, fingerprinting, HUMINT, and technical targeting,” and “engage curated sock puppet accounts to reveal patterns and provoke reactions, information disclosure,” and “push specific topics to expose more identity-related details.” An IP user on the discussion page says "they intend to add malicious links (sources) that will set cookies, grab your IP, and get tracking going for your device. This has likely already started. Be careful, there are lots of ways to hide where a link goes." ] (]) 17:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I think there's a far more productive discussion going on at ]. ] (]) 17:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::A friendly reminder: It's always a good time to review the strength and age of account passwords, plus consider two-factor verification. The world is constantly changing... ] (]) 17:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Isn't doxing a federal/punishable offense in ten states (more or less), including DC? If they grab the information of or out a minor, that can easily be taken on as a form of harassment and won't end well. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::No doubt the Trump adminstration will make pursuing such cases a high priority. ]] 22:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm unsure why this isn't a WMF issue, due to potential legal and safeguarding issues. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 19:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The WMF has been made aware. ] (she/her • ]) 19:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Truffle457 == | |||
| {{la|Petronella Wyatt}} is coming in for some stick from London singlespeed bike forum members after she wrote an anti-cyclist rant in the Daily Mail. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 12:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|result=Editor blocked indefinitely. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{user|Truffle457 }} | |||
| :Someone has removed the section since this ANI posting, and there has been no further vandalism since the last protection. I would recommend discussion on the talk page to avoid a content dispute brewing up. Personally I wouldn't re-add the section yet, and wait a few days as this is a recent event. Criticism has not yet been covered by any of the major UK news outlets in a significant way yet, judging from a quick search. Consider requesting protection if the trouble restarts, or an edit war brews. --] (]) 13:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Blatant BLP Violation - Misplaced Pages attempts to "Out" athlete who makes no public claim about his sexuality == | |||
| '''This new edit:''' ''"LGBT newspaper Edge noted during the 2010 Olympics that "like Matthew Mitcham, is a rare Olympic athlete who feels comfortable about being out even while his career is in full swing"."'' | |||
| As said elsewhere, BLP clearly states that: "This is a matter in which the ] are especially relevant. Those guidelines specifically note that information about sexual orientation should be used only if ''"relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life"''. Mr Weir is notable for his competitive figure skating." Weir has been clear that who he sleeps with is his private life, ''"Johnny has also said, '''"There are some things I keep sacred. My middle name. Who I sleep with. And what kind of hand moisturizer I use."'''] | |||
| :It's not a debatable question, the athlete has not stated his personal preference. ] (]) 15:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Actually, from the article linked from the reference, <s>it appears he ''has'' stated a preference</s>. No admin action needed here. --] (]) 15:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Can you quote that, please?] (]) 15:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::On re-reading, guess I can't. The closest I can get is "I have no shame in who I am, and who I go to sleep with is a very small part of who I am."--] (]) 15:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Which doesn't mean he's disclosing his sexual preference. Per BLP, it should not be stated or implied unless there are high quality references for it. ] (]) 15:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Note'''. I have the sentence until the matter is resolved. ] | ] 16:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment'''. I stated on the talkpage that content on his sexuality should be shelved until after the Olympics but saw that the following had been inserted and was there for a few days: {{cquote|Weir's sexuality is a hotly debated topic, with commentators such as ]<ref name="philly"/> and skaters such as ]<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.chicagopride.com/news/article.cfm/articleid/3568225|title=Johnny Weir Faces Gay Question Following Chicago Tribune Poll|date=17 February 2006|publisher=Chicago Pride|accessdate=17 February 2010}}</ref> wanting Weir to openly proclaim his supposed homosexuality.<ref name="philly">{{cite news|url=http://www.phillymag.com/articles/johnny_drama/page1|title=Johnny Drama: Figure-skater Johnny Weir makes headlines for his bad-boy life off the ice|last=Strauss|first=Amy|publisher=Philly Mag|accessdate=17 February 2010}}</ref> Right after his performance at the ], Weir replied to a blunt question ("Are you queer?") by saying "I am who I am, and I don't need to justify anything to anyone."<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/16/AR2006021602450.html|title=Out? In? Or Past All That? Johnny Weir's Fancy-Free Skate|last=Stuever|first=Hank|date=17 February 2006|publisher=]|accessdate=17 February 2010}}</ref>}} To me that had to be cleaned up. Misplaced Pages is not outing anyone, we simply are noting what a reliable source has stated. I'm sure there were many more but I was simply getting the atrocious stuff off quickly. This seems to be going the same route as ] {{cquote|Independent news media have reported that Cooper is gay, and in May 2007, Out magazine ranked him second behind David Geffen in its list of the fifty "Most Powerful Gay Men and Women in America." When asked about his sexuality, he stated "I understand why people might be interested. But I just don’t talk about my personal life. It’s a decision I made a long time ago, before I ever even knew anyone would be interested in my personal life. The whole thing about being a reporter is that you're supposed to be an observer and to be able to adapt with any group you’re in, and I don’t want to do anything that threatens that."}} Likely Weir's article will go the same way as reliable sources have asked the question, done so clearly in the context of his skating, and he has been forthcoming with non-answer answers. I'm quite happy for it to stay off until after the Olympics are over as I suggested on the talkpage. ] 16:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *Hey Benjiboi, that sentence you quoted wasn't there very long--I looked at the article yesterday and found some typically weaselish phrases there and a slew of URLs simply dropped in. I attempted to clean it up, and ended up rephrasing a lot of what there was (and I think I dropped one less-reliable source). I thought it was important, for instance, to name Lund and Galindo: those sources stated it as fact, and that they did is surely of interest (of enough interest, for instance, for the Washington Post to write about it). What I don't rightly understand is how this is encyclopedic: "Weir's sexuality has been speculated on likely because of his flamboyant fashion and more interpretive and sensitive skating." That doesn't even claim that this is someone's opinion; "likely because" is simply OR.<p>If folks feel (like the IP below) that this is outing, one way or another, well, I disagree, but I'm not about to fight to keep it in. ] (]) 19:40, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :How is imposing a sexual orientation, through the false device of "quoting" others speculating, encyclopedic?] (]) 17:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| **Drmies, I had left the Galindo and Lund bits in; the phrasing I used was from telecast announcers who are trained in the field but I agree it was poorly worded, i was just trying to ensure it was discussed as part of his skating rather than kind-og plopped in there. I'm open to whatever works. ] 20:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::We don't lead, we follow. The source stated it as fact and we reported that in context directly quoting and citing what the source stated. If you want to add something back in asap maybe propose it on the talkpage, I just don't see the need but others obviously do. After the Olympics a more thoughtful discussion on cleaning up the article including what to use about the gay question can ensue. I just don't see the rush and this is the biggest event in his life. ] 17:11, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You do realize that you're proposing that we institutionalize and perpetuate stereotypical labeling by calling someone a "fag" (Ahh, but for "good" reasons I hear you say ...) because of the way they act - and then justifying it by saying, "''... well that's what someone said.''" As to the "legalism" of prefacing it with "some people speculate", is Misplaced Pages just a Gossip Repository in which we engage in the age old, "now I would never say this, but I heard "...? I prefer ]'s take on this, '''''"Why need you, who are not a gossip, talk as a gossip?"''''' _] (]) 17:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Reliable sources say it, we say it. If they're speculating, we make it clear that they're speculating. No where in the article does it say "fag", or anything of the kind. The lead does not open with "...is a homosexual figure skater". It reports on what reliable sources have been saying about him later in the article. --] 17:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You do realize, I hope, that there is a delicious irony in using as pious justification for the act - that well worn ] for gossips, the classic - ''"reliable source"?'' _] (]) 18:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I don't even know what to call this. This user has few edits but most are like this. ] (]) 22:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I see no purpose for speculation on sexual orientation - even from "reliable sources" - in a reputable encyclopedia. If he is, he is; if he isn't, he isn't; and if no one but him and his know, then there's no point to speculate. Just because a "reliable source" speculates on something doesn't mean we have to care. --] (]) 18:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :This is a new user with only a single level I notice on their page. I've issued a level II caution for using talk pages as a forum and added a welcome template. If this persists, stronger measures may be needed. -] (]) 22:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It's a part of NPOV, if multiple reliable sources interview him and ask "the question" and he answers all in context of his notability (his skating) and even more reliable sources do speculate and devote content to this issue, again in relation to his notability, then it reaches a tipping point where it's POV not to include something. The exact wording needs to be sorted out but Misplaced Pages remains ]. He's been a worldwide celebrity for years now and this speculation goes back at least 5-6 years from what I've seen. In contrast, if he was never asked, never answered and no speculation existed in multiple reliable sources we wouldn't be discussing it. ] 18:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :], I'd advise talking with an editor, through words, not templates, before filing a complaint at ANI. That's a general recommendation unless there is active vandalism going on. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::You must be kidding, ''"Weir's sexuality has been speculated on likely because of his flamboyant fashion and more interpretive and sensitive skating."'' Can we get anymore stereotypically biased? Why not just say, ''"Look, you can tell he's gay, how can he not be?"'' _] (]) 18:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::His comments are disturbing tbh. ] (]) 22:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :At the risk of being misunderstood, allow me to suggest that there ''is'' a purpose to these types of speculations or spreading of innuendo, which is really just another form of POV pushing. It's the same reason we have labelled ] as gay despite his requests not to characterize his sexuality. It's the same reason we have labelled ] as gay despite the fact that the only source is an interview with an obscure and unreliable blog. It is pro-LGBT advocacy of a kind that is carried out mainly, to borrow a phrase from Sister Kitty Catalyst, by "homo-propagandists" and should be viewed the same as any other type of POV-pushing. ] (]) 18:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::The user's response to {{U|Ad Orientem}}'s warning demonstrates that they have no insight into their misconduct and are ].--] (]) 23:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{notdone|Indeffed}} per WP:CIR. -] (]) 23:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Well, by having a conversation, you discerned that CIR applied. Some communication, I think, is better than silence at least when you are trying to make sense of an unclear situation. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == YZ357980, second complaint == | |||
| I am of the opinion that speculations about someone's sexuality, even when reported in mainstream press, are not particularly encyclopedic and their coverage should be kept to a minimum, especially in BLP cases. However, I don't quite see what the point of discussing the issue at AN/I is. The proper place for this discussion is the article's talk page, or perhaps the BLP noticeboard, ]; and, in case things get out of hand, perhaps ]. ] (]) 18:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I have again reverted {{u|YZ357980}}'s insertion of an image of dubious copyright; change of Somali Armed Forces native-name to an incorrect format; and violation of ] at ] - see ] which had another editor fix the incorrect file format. I believe this editor is ] and not willing to communicate and I would request administrator attention to this matter. Kind regards ] ] 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :For the record, that image has been on Commons since 2015 and was made by a different user. That said, YZ357980 continues to make these borderline disruptive edits and has ''never'' posted on an article talk page or a user talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace until communication improves, as it is ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == My reverted edit at List of Famicom Disk System games == | |||
| :It's a '''fundamental''' question, does this institution condone using the 'politics of denial' to shoehorn bias and perpetuate sexual orientation stereotypes? ? _] (]) 19:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=At worst, this deserves a {{tl|minnow}}. This is, at heart, a content dispute, and ] is the place to discuss it. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Hi | |||
| I added {{tl|clear}} to the top of table of ] to make the table use the whole horizontal space. I did it according to other list of video games articles and reception section of some video games articles to help the table list look better or not reception table to conflict with references (double column references more specifically). | |||
| ::I concur that the article talkpage likely is better as the main issue remains what do reliable sources state and how do we present those NPOV. The sources I was leaning on, including ''Wall Street Journal'' and ''The New York Times'' lead and we follow. That is not POV pushing as the rather ]ey post by Delicious carbuncle suggests but using long-established community policies including consensus to find the best path forward. As the discussion at ] demonstrates several of us actually called the actor's publicist over a week to sort out how to reconcile worldwide coverage of his coming out with unverified denials. Luckily we only had a few socks over there so the ] was minimal. I didn't get involved at ] as far as I recall but there seems to have been lots of ] there as well. Accusing others of POV-pushing seems wholly combative but a visit to ] may be the logical next step. As for Weir, I recommended waiting until after the Olympics to avoid exactly this kind of nonsense, I still do. Whatever reliable sources stated yesterday will still be stated by them two weeks from now. There's no need to push to add anything and reasonable editors can sort it on the talkpage or in userspace if the drama can't seem to let it go. ] 20:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| However {{ping|NakhlaMan}} reverted my edit and with a rude language called it "UGLIER" and calls it waste of too much space. | |||
| :::It appears that since you're telephoning subjects and have a committed involvement with the goal of outing BLP subjects, this is best dealt with here. Your issue advocacy is a problem, as is your ] and co-ordinating article coverage off-wiki with professional publicists. People with a "cause" are often naively blind to the effect it has on their ability to approach a subject in a disinterested, neutral and academic manner.] (]) 20:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Benjiboi appears to be setting himself up as Misplaced Pages's ]. Unfortunately Misplaced Pages does not need a Peter Tatchell. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 21:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| This is reminiscent of a similar discussion we had about ]. Prior to his coming out, his sexuality was the subject of considerable speculation and he had been asked about it on a couple of occasions. We dealt with it by reporting his own comments on the matter. <b>] ] </b> 21:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| With my edit, it adds just a small space to the top of list heading but the table could be read easier and uses the whole available space. ] (]) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ] - good intentions, maybe, but still uncivil and disruptive == | |||
| :I don't think this is the right place for this. Yes, the user could have been much nicer on their opinion, but this is too much of an escalation, too fast. I would advise commenting on their talk page, or on the page talk page. Cheers, ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 04:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC) {{nacmt}} | |||
| {{Userlinks|Koavf}} | |||
| :Yes, their edit summary was mildly rude, but this is not actionable, please open a discussion on the article's talk page.]] 04:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Edit War in Korean clans of foreign origin == | |||
| This user is currently under an indefinite ], including a for making mass catagory changes without seeking consensus. While the circumstances have changed, this user continues a disruptive editing pattern. His rationale is always that a particular template "demands" or "explicitly calls for" whatever changes he is making, and he interprets any attempt at first reaching consensus as rude and uncivil. | |||
| {{Atop|Ger2024 blocked as a sock.--] (]) 14:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| User: Ger2024 | |||
| {{Userlinks|Ger2024}} | |||
| First of all, he ] in violation of his sanction. | |||
| Ger2024 has been ] and violated ] (they have as of now made five reverts) and possibly ] despite my direct requests asking them to and to instead discuss with me and @CountHacker on the Talk Page. While they did respond to my efforts to try to talk to them on the Talk Page, they immediately then reverted my edits after they made their comments. The initial edits started when another Misplaced Pages user was verifying and deleting some info on the page (likely for factual accuracy) when the reverts began. | |||
| Recently he edit warred at ], , . , and was told very solidly ] to first get consensus for such a radical change to a well established article. | |||
| In regards to WP:NPOV, there is a POV push, despite the multiple corrections both I and @CountHacker have issued. We notified the user that the same source they are using from is generally considered historically unreliable because it is a collection of folklore and legends (the source, while a valuable insight into Korean folklore, claims that the founder of the Korean kingdom of Silla was born from a literal Golden Egg, so cannot be taken to be factual because humans cannot be born from Golden Eggs). | |||
| The user seems to have a fascination with endashes and emdashes, and has edit warred over this on several occasions: He , was , and finally relented when consensus was reached and the admin undid his reversion. He recently did some "spite editing" (. , , , in response to my comment at the Remain in Light talk page ("''User:Koavf has a long history of rigidly adhering to template guidelines to the point of disruption, and should simply be reverted and ignored; if he edit wars, take it to AN/I.''"). I left a note ], and ] was predictable. If you'll look at a few of the preceding post to his talk, you'll see that the pattern continues. | |||
| Despite trying to talk to them, they are just ignoring my and CountHackers actual points, and we even had more discussion but they just made their fifth revert. | |||
| Further, he can't be made to understand that it's not always appropriate to include "UK" or "United Kingdom" in infoboxes at articles about UK subjects. The long standing convention has been to include town, county and constituent country (England, Wales, etc.), but not "UK or "United Kingdom", just as one should not presume a UK citizen's "nationality" without a reliable source (as dicussed at ]). | |||
| :This report belongs at ]. ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 05:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) {{nacmt}} | |||
| He also undid the formatting of '''ALL''' of the infoboxes at all of Beatles' record articles where a lot of time was spent sorting out the clutter of multiple studios and session dates just so he could tag "England, United Kingdom" onto all of the studio locations, citing "Template:Album Infobox", which, of course has '''no''' guidline regarding the country or nation where the record was made (eg, , ). | |||
| :Who posted this complaint, they didn't leave a signature which, to me, shows a lack of experience. They also didn't leave any diffs so it's impossible to judge if there were indeed reverts. And as HeartGlow states, this is more suitable for ANEW which focuses on edit-warring. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Unclear if genuine question or rhetorical, but in case it's the former, it seems to be ]. (They have over 1000 edits and have been editing since 2022, but it appears they may be used to using the Reply tool, which might explain why they didn't think to <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> since replying in that manner does that automatically? I think? <small>...Not trying to excuse it so much as I'm trying to understand it.</small>) - ] (]) 08:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Sorry about that, I was a bit sleep deprived when I made, I'll go to WP:ANEW. | |||
| :::And yea im way too used to the reply tool, i think i make these posts like once perhaps every few months so i got a bit rusty on this. Thanks! ] (]) 13:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{Abot}} | |||
| == Subtle vandalism by 8.40.247.4 == | |||
| I originally posted this at the ]; he didn't get a chance to read it yet, but User:Koavf did, yet he continues to and to post ] on my talk page. | |||
| * {{Userlinks|8.40.247.4}} | |||
| I'm asking that he be reigned in again, and that he be topic banned from any article to which I make regular or significant edits. <b>]</b> ] 17:01, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Since early 2020, ] has consistently and ] made edits that: | |||
| * minimize achievements and contributions of black people in American society | |||
| * obscure or soften wording about right-wing and far-right leanings of conservative figures | |||
| * promote fringe, racist, or pseudo-scientific theories | |||
| The IP generally attempts to disguise the edits by lying about changes made in the edit summary. Here is a list of problem edits in chronological order: | |||
| '''Uncivil?''' I have to admit that this is surprising. I'll try to be brief, but I think that there is scant evidence that I have been uncivil or that anything that I have done has disrupted the ability of other editors to contribute to Misplaced Pages. | |||
| {| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" | |||
| {{Userlinks|Radiopathy}} | |||
| ! width="100" | Date | |||
| ! width="225" | Page | |||
| ! Issue | |||
| |- | |||
| | Mar 4, 2020 | |||
| | '''McComb, Mississippi''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removal of section about black people gaining the right to vote with the Voting Rights Act. | |||
| |- | |||
| | May 31, 2020 | |||
| | '''John Derbyshire''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes phrase describing ], a white nationalist organization, as white nationalist. Summary: "{{!xt|Fixed a typo}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jul 21, 2020 | |||
| | '''Richard Hayne''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * "{{!xt|Reorganised wording}}" means removing criticism. | |||
| * "{{!xt|made favourable LGBT commentary more vivid}}" (what?) replaces the subject's stance on homosexuality with a vague and unsourced statement about Urban Outfitters and the Hayne family. | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jul 28, 2020 | |||
| | '''Louie Gohmert''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Softens "opposes LGBT rights" to "generally opposes LGBT rights legislation". Removes the words "defamatory" from section on Gohmert's false allegations. Removes whole section on Gohmert's opposition to making lynching a hate crime. | |||
| * Summary: "{{!xt|Grammatical issues.}}" | |||
| |- | |||
| | Sep 24, 2020 | |||
| | '''Back-to-Africa movement''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Omits the context of Christians accepting slavery when the slaves were Muslim to make it sound like religious Americans had always been morally opposed | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jan 14, 2021 | |||
| | '''Virginia Dare''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes description of VDARE as a group associated with white supremacy and white nationalism. | |||
| |- | |||
| | Apr 28, 2021 | |||
| | '''Bret Stephens''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Hides his climate change denial, so the sentence now basically reads "Bret Stephens has an opinion on climate change". Uses summary "{{!xt|Removed redundancy}}" (it wasn't redundant). | |||
| |- | |||
| | June 25, 2021 | |||
| | '''John Gabriel Stedman''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes sentence on pro-slavery leanings (admittedly unsourced) and sexual exploitation of one of his slaves (sourced). Summary: "{{!xt|Minor grammatical / spelling errors revised.}}" | |||
| |- | |||
| | Oct 7, 2021 | |||
| | '''Appalachian music''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Replaces the "various European and African influences" in the introduction with a phrase implying the music's origins were European, and that African-American influence only came later, which is untrue. | |||
| * Rewords " call and response format ... was ''adopted'' by colonial America" to say " ... was ''also common'' in colonial America". | |||
| * Removes entire paragraph about African-Americans introducing the banjo to white Southerners. Further down, changes "African banjo" to just "banjo". | |||
| * Summaries: "{{!xt|Added links to traditional folk music wikis}}" and "{{!xt|Verbiage clean-up}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Nov 27, 2021 | |||
| | '''Steve Sailer''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes all mention of Sailer, backed by sources, as holding racist, white supremacist, and anti-semitic views in the introduction. | |||
| * Removes description of Sailer's human biodiversity theory as pseudoscientific and racist. | |||
| * Summary is "{{!xt|Added a link to human biodiversity}}" – true, but leaves out the 6,000 deleted bytes. Makes the same edit two more times, but is reverted each time. | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jan 26, 2022 | |||
| | '''Mongoloid''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes phrase calling it a disproven theory. Replaces sentence on racist origins in Western scholars with mention of Eastern scholars also promoting the theory (unsourced). Adds a phrase saying that actually, it's up for debate. | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jul 6, 2022 | |||
| | '''Indian Mills, New Jersey''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Deletes phrase about white colonists displacing Native American families. Summary: "{{!xt|Removed a dead link}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Feb 20, 2023 | |||
| | '''Myth of meritocracy''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Changes sentence on institutional racism to describe it as "theoretical institutional racism". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Mar 26, 2023 | |||
| | '''Millford Plantation''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Hides the plantation's origins in slavery by renaming description from "forced-labor farm" to "farmstead". Summary: "{{!xt|Added link to slavery in the USA}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jun 17, 2023 | |||
| | '''John Birch Society''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes mention of the society being right-wing, far-right, and radical right in introduction. | |||
| * Further down, removes description as being ultraconservative and extremist, and Southern Poverty Law Center's classification as antigovernment. | |||
| * Summary: "{{!xt|Removed faulty and vague links.}}" | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jan 9, 2025 | |||
| | '''Robert Gould Shaw''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Removes sentence on the battle inspiring African-Americans to join the Union Army during the Civil War. Summary: "{{!xt|Grammatical clean-up}}". | |||
| |- | |||
| | Jan 9, 2025 | |||
| | '''Virginia Dare''' (]) | |||
| | | |||
| * Edits the page again four years later, this time using VDARE's closing as an excuse to remove all mention of it. Claims it is "{{!xt|no longer relevant}}", which is a crazy argument. | |||
| |} | |||
| The IP doesn't make enough edits at a time for vandalism warnings to rise to level 4, and thus has never been blocked (which is why I'm reporting this here and not at ]). These groups of edits are also spaced out over months, so a different user warns the IP each time (eight times so far!). The user, unfamiliar with the IP's editing history, treats the old warnings as "expired" and simply issues another level 1 or 2 warning. | |||
| In October 2009, Radiopathy and I (amongst others) were caught up in a similar dispute about properly listing information in two different infoboxes: ]'s {{tl|Infobox writer}} and ]'s {{tl|Infobox musical artist}}. At the end of that back-and-forth, Radiopathy was blocked (and then semi-retired, retired, and came back.) He was blocked for edit-warring again in October and December under similar circumstances. Any user can take a look at his and the rationales for a better understanding. (Also, there are other warnings and incidents from 3RR, but they are not directly relevant to this case.) Cf. ], ], and ], amongst others. | |||
| I believe this IP should be banned for a while. Unfortunately, there are probably many more like this one that haven't been caught yet. --] (]) 09:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| He has pleaded to be unblocked, taken off 1RR, and be allowed to use Twinkle again in spite of the fact that he doesn't show a sufficient change in behavior to warrant these restrictions being lifted. One of his blocks was lifted in good faith and reinstated again for edit-warring. In point of fact, ] as far as I'm aware (]), and he broke it yesterday on ] for exactly the issue which involved his edit-warring at ] and ]. Cf. , (which he characterized as reverting trolling), and (which he characterized as being merely a change to the content of the article, but not mentioning the reverting to the infobox). Note also that his changes break image parameter in the infobox in question. | |||
| :I spot checked these and yeah this is bad. Using false and misleading edit summaries to remove in most cases sourced descriptions to slant articles. <small style="background:#ccc;border:#000 1px solid;padding:0 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap;">] | ]</small> 12:42, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Jesus Christ. Blocked for two years, since it looks like the IP is stable. ] ] 15:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Egl7, anti-Armenian behaviour == | |||
| Here are some of the most recent events: | |||
| *I edited several Beatles' album infoboxes to a manner that I think is more descriptive and useful. Radiopathy reverted all of these changes (including .) and left them as he wanted. | |||
| *I edited ] and found that another editor—]—had a difference of opinion. After reverting one another, we both ended up posting on ] and we have stopped reverting; there is no edit war here, although Radiopathy's characterization of the events might seem otherwise. I have also asked for outside opinions and as far as I'm aware, Rafablu88 has no problem with my editing or civility. . | |||
| *After we first started reverting on ], Radiopathy asking me to stop my "petulant, disruptive editing" regarding ] and asking me to seek consensus individually on every page to mention "United Kingdom" in its infobox (irrespective of the fact that the template's instructions call for it; again, this is exactly what we went through last year on ] and ]. Note that both have "United Kingdom" listed presently.) | |||
| *, telling Radiopathy that his behavior was rude and that I had no intention of stopping, but that I was willing to discuss changes on talk. | |||
| *. (This is not new behavior: and ) In that post, he claimed (among other things) that I was "rude and uncivil", I have been "edit warring" on ] (I was not), I have "edit warred" over ndashes (the only thing approaching that is on my talk and when the user asked me to stop or revert my changes, I did), most incredulously he claimed that I did some "spite editing." Frankly, his ] of me on Misplaced Pages constitutes spite if anything. He has deliberately inserted himself into conversations with the sole purpose of having other users ignore or ban me and characterized my edits as trolling, edit-warring, pedantry, and vandalism when it's no such thing. | |||
| *Both that last post and this AN/I report make mention of ], which is an essay (not a policy, guideline, or even instructions) that mentions nothing about infoboxes. He claims that there is some convention to ''not'' include the UK infoboxes, but has never show me where/how any such agreement was reached. On the contrary, there are at least two instances of the opposite which I have pointed out above. | |||
| *. I chose to ignore his post on ] and the fact that he broke his 1RR on ] in the hopes that he would be reasonable, but this latest post to AN/I proves that he is not willing to talk in a civil manner and that he is more interested in "spite edits" of his own against me rather than having constructive dialogue aimed at making the encyclopedia better. In fact, I did nothing to warrant a post to AN/I since our last exchange on each others' talk pages. This post is entirely out of spite itself. | |||
| {{userlinks|Egl7}} | |||
| While I didn't want to come here to request actions against Radiopathy (rather, I simply wanted to defend myself), it seems clear to me that admins should consider sanctions against him for his rude, hounding, deceptive behavior. If anything I have posted up until this point constitutes anything uncivil, trolling, etc. please let me know. ; it is unfortunate that it even came to posting here in the first place. —]❤]☮]☺]☯ 19:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Addendum''' . —]❤]☮]☺]☯ 19:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Egl7 clearly has bone to pick with Armenia, including dancing on the fine line of ], not to mention severe ] issues. As a Russian admin admit perfectly put it when they indeffed Egl7; | |||
| :Question (and both editors above are welcome to answer) - is there evidence of a clear breach of the current editing restrictions on Koavf? The initial post is somewhat misleading; the editing restriction seems to be on adding, moving, or renaming ''categories'', not page moves, as is cited. ] | ] 19:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::'''Good question''' Any case that was questionable or borderline I have personally posted on ]. (e.g. I made a new page, and consequently added categories to ''that'': ]. Similar instances: merging two pages, removing a redlink category, creating a new template, etc.) —]❤]☮]☺]☯ 19:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| #Egl7 never tries to take responsibility for their actions, instead being upset and obsessing over that I didn't revert a random IP that added "Armenian" under "common languages" in an infobox almost two years ago , mentioning that 7 (!) times | |||
| == problem with bad faith editor == | |||
| #According to Egl7, having three things (out of 25) about Armenia on my userpage - being part of the ], being interested in the history of ], and opposing the denial of the Armenian genocide, means I support "Armenia's actions" , whatever that means. They never explained it despite being asked to, which leads me to the next thing. | |||
| {{resolved|No admin action needed. --] (]) 20:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC)}} | |||
| #Here is this incredibly bizarre rant by Egl7 for me having stuff about Armenia on my userpage and not Azerbaijan, accusing me of anti-Azerbaijani sentiment and whatnot; | |||
| the user dapi89 is reverting everything of me. he has problems with my sources, because he thinks his single source is the best. while he is removing this content he is removing everythin else what i have done, hes deleting statements which are cited and even maps which i have created for the article, i search for intervention. i tried to discuss everything for more than one week, he dont responds if hes not correct. this is no good fait anylonger. dozen examples but here the last ]] (]) 19:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| #Egl7 does not understand when someone is not interested in engaging in ] whataboutism, instead resorting to ], first on my talk page , then an article talk page , then their own talk page . This random question about the ] appeared after I asked them if they denied the Armenian Genocide since they considered me having a userpage about it part of "supporting Armenia's actions". According to this well sourced Wiki section , the term "genocide" is a "fabrication" for the Khojaly massacre, which is "used to counter the narrative of the Armenian genocide." | |||
| :Blablaaa was instructed on his talk page how to pursue ]: he chose to ignore it. Continuing to ignore it may result in a block for ]. --] (]) 20:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| #Dancing on the fine line of ], if not denying it | |||
| #Despite being blocked on the Russian Misplaced Pages for it, their first action here was trying the very same thing they were indeffed for ; changing "Nakhichevan" (Armenian spelling) to "Nakhichivan" (Azerbaijani spelling) | |||
| #I truly tried to have ] despite their disruptive conduct and previous block, but this user is simply ]. There also seems to be severe ] at hand, as they struggle understanding a lot of what I say, including even reading ], which I had to ask them to read 5 (!) times before I gave up. As seen in our long discussion , they also to struggle understand basic sentences/words, such as the difference between "official" and "common". | |||
| I'm not going to respond to Egl7 here unless an admin wants me to. --] (]) 13:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Delete a page in userspace, please? == | |||
| {{Resolved|1=Paul Erik got it. —<font color="32CD32">'']''</font> <font color="4682B4"><sup>(] ])</sup></font> 20:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)}} | |||
| === HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour === | |||
| Would someone kindly delete ]? He asked me to do so at ], which I can't do, and I recommended he just add the appropriate speedy deletion template to it, but the templates don't seem to function on that page. Thanks— ]''' (]) 20:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ] | |||
| ::tks guys that was fast!!....Love love hug hug!!...] (]) 20:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| @] clearly has bone to pick with Azerbaijan, including ] my ] work which includes correction of arrangement of the "Today is part of" infobox following the country, in which, at present, the largest part of the territory of the Nakhchivan Khanate is located. @] is reverting back changes, saying that my https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&diff=prev&oldid=1268162595 edit is not an improvement without any real reason and without offering any argument. Also they are stating that there is a restriction according to ], while ignoring edits of other users. I asked them many times to open a discussion so both sides could offer different proposals which in turn would lead to a consensus. In response all my requests were ignored. Also they have been accusing me of having conflicts with other users and countries while I have never noted or mentioned any and they have been impolite to me all the time, while i have never been impolite or rude to them. I want to say that I am blocked on ru.wikipedia, again, because of no real reason(They are vandalizing and projecting their actions onto me) and now i'm even worried that en.wikipedia will do the same to me. | |||
| == Disruptive editor: BLP violation, removal of references, violation of WP:OWN == | |||
| IP 129.171.233.78 is being highly disruptive on ]. They claim ownership of the page (), they blindly revert to a version they like better, thereby removing the only references the article had and ironically reinstating the tags that marked their version of the article as problematic (), and, perhaps worst of all, they keep reinserting that one guy is suing another over breach of contract-- provided without any references at all, except for the injunction to .<p>The rest of the edits made by this editor are also problematic--they make unverified and POVish claims about "unique products," unnamed fans who consider some change "selling out," etc. I've tried to explain on the talk page what the BLP problem was, and have added three reliable sources to the article that verify at least some of the information in the original poorly written and unreferenced article, but I'm tired of trying to explain ], ], and all that jazz to this editor. ] (]) 20:50, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *I have . ] (]) 20:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| **And I have semi-protected the page, as he's IP-hopping and violating 3RR. --] (]) 21:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| They are also dancing on the fine line of denying ], if not denying it. | |||
| == Dardani== | |||
| , this is a prehistoric statue ] and does not belong in this article (would belong in some prehistoric article) and a sentence is being added "The Dardanian Kingdom of 4th century was led by its first King, Longarus after him came King Bato and King Monunius ." Those individuals are covered in the article and the sentence is completely wrong. See ] . ] (]) 20:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *You should probably take this to ]. However, I did revert the changes--the image is a possible copyvio, and the added text was poorly written, placed in the wrong section, and not verified by the provided sources. I saw that you did not notify the editor.<p>May I ask a passing admin to have a quick look and possibly check this as done? I don't think this belongs on this board. Thanks, ] (]) 21:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks, i will use the right board next time.] (]) 21:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::No problem. ] (]) 21:12, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Hi Megistias i see you have added this question on ] and the ] page ..lets give both those talk pages time to answerer before you post it at ]... its there a dispute really ?? have you given him/her time to respond ?? ...] (]) 21:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Note that {{user|Lontech}} is still within a 4-month topic ban on Kosovo-related topics per , so I think he should be blocked at least for the remainder of the topic ban. Thoughts?--] (]) 21:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::well that sheds light on things..so in other words Lontech has has this problem in the past with related articles !! ..can only admin see this or would i have to troll threw his talk page edits? ..] (]) 21:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Thank You. ] (]) 15:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Legal threat at Apcchart's talk page== | |||
| :*'''Boomerang''' this is a clearly retaliatory filing. I think Egl7 is ]. ] (]) 15:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : |
:*'''Boomerang''' obvious retaliatory filling. ] (]) 15:07, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| :As a non-EC editor, you should not be discussing Armenia/Azerbaijan issues at all except for making specific, constructive edit requests on the relevant talk pages. Once you received notice about the restriction, none of your related edits were in good faith, and all may be reverted without being considered edit warring. And quite frankly, the diffs that HistoryofIran has presented about your behavior don't look great. Your behavior on Russian Misplaced Pages doesn't affect your rights on English Misplaced Pages, but since you brought it up, I have to agree that you were there and now here more to fight than to edit a collaborative encyclopedia. ] (]) 15:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] tell me, please, if there is a restriction why are everybody's edits are ignored except mine? You are not doing justice. ] (]) 15:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Because the restriction is specific to people who do not have extended confirmed status. ] (]) 15:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::i know that i'm being picky and can sound like a snitch, don't get me wrong, but, at least, i'm editing from an account while other users are editing from random IPs. How is it possible for a random IP to have an extended confirmed status? ] (]) 15:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The person you created this obviously retaliatory report against is not an IP and does have EC status. The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward. ] (]) 15:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I'm not taking about @] here. Look up the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&action=history. You can see that there are IPs, edits of which were ignored even if those edits have been done after the restriction had been set. This is what makes it unfair. By this logic my edits should've been ignored too. ] (]) 16:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::No IP has edited the page in question in nearly a year. You are complaining about a non-issue. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The restriction has been set much earlier than a year. ] (]) 16:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Right, but at ANI we deal with {{tq|urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.}} The IP edits here are old news. Further, having now reviewed the page's last 5 years of history...out of 7 IP edits made, 5 were reverted almost immediately, 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (]), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (], which added "Armenian language"). You'll notice upon minimal investigation, however, that HistoryofIran's most embattled edits to this page were to ''remove'' "Armenian language" from the article in July of 2023; it's rather disingenuous to accuse them of all people of turning a blind eye here. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::This does not refute what I said above. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::There are actually 2 or more of them. I guess it's his duty to support both sides and remove or add information which is or is not necessary. ] (]) 16:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I'm not sure what you're trying to say here at this point, but it also doesn't matter. HoI raised multiple valid concerns regarding the quality of your editing in an area that per our community guidelines, you should be intentionally avoiding. In response, you filed a retaliatory report and are now arguing technicalities that are tangential to the substance of HoI's initial report. The fact that you are arguing such trivial, irrelevant points is evidence against you in these proceedings. Your best course of action is to follow Simonm223's advice above. Failure to take that advice at this point is almost certain to end with you blocked. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? ] (]) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It's not. However, someone making an inappropriate edit without being caught does not make your inappropriate edits into appropriate ones. There have been many successful bank robberies in history, but that doesn't mean I'm allowed to rob the bank next to my grocery store. You need to start focusing on how ''you'' conduct yourself, not on how others do, because right now, you appear to be headed towards a block. ] (]) 16:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I understand you. But i want to note that no matter how successful are the robberies, a lengthy criminal investigation will be launched. In addition, i want to say that i wasn't aware of those edits before I did mine. ] (]) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You did receive a warning on your talk page. Your conduct issues are not limited to violating ECP. You would be wise to heed the advice given in this thread from Simonm223 and Rosguill. The community does not have much patience for nationalist editing. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? ] (]) 16:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::], {{tq| The restriction applies to all edits and pages related to the topic area, broadly construed}}. That includes complaints about other editors. Which you should know already, as you have been repeatedly warned about GS/AA and should have read that page carefully. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::So Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident, which in my case is "HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour"? I am asking this because you said that "The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward". And still, what you said in this comment does not refute what I said above. ] (]) 16:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Lists of everyone that has been sanctioned for GS/AA violations, or CT/AA violations more broadly, can be found at ] and further at ] under each year's Armenia-Azerbaijan (CT/A-A) section. Note that this only lists people who repeatedly ignored warnings and got blocked for it, simple reverts are not logged. I would encourage you to avoid getting your own username added to that list. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * All I see is Egl7 doubling down. I have already tried to tell them that there was nothing wrong with the IP edit they are fixiated on, and that it doesn’t excuse their unconstructice edits regardless. The fact that they were caught red handed in genocide denial and anti-Armenian conduct and then fruitlessly attempts to make me appear as the same with Azerbaijanis by copy-pasting part of my report and replace “Armenian” with “Azerbaijani” says a lot about this user. ] (]) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] "There was nothing wrong" | |||
| *:As @] said 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (]), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (], which added "Armenian language"). | |||
| *:As I understand you were aware or now are aware of those edits done by those IPs what tells me that you admit that you ignored or are ignoring the edits that have been done after the restriction has been set and now you are still stating that there was or is nothing wrong with those IPs' edits. ] (]) 16:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::And we're done here. If you can read my comments here close enough to try to use them to make tendentious arguments at HoI, you should be able to understand that I already told you this is not even slightly appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
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Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from User:DarwIn
NO CONSENSUS (non-admin closure) I see that this discussion has pretty much brought us nowhere. Both DarwIn and Skyshifter have presented serious concerns about each other, with Skyshifter saying that DarwIn is a "known transphobic" who keeps harassing her across multiple wikis, and DarwIn claiming that these are frivolous allegations, and that Skyshifter is simply throwing around the word "transphobic". Both sides had equally convincing arguments, and when it came down to the final proposal, in which DarwIn would receive a WP:TBAN on WP:GENSEX and a one-way IBAN with Skyshifter, and it was fairly split (58% support, 42% oppose), however DarwIn voluntarily IBANed himself. I don't think we are going to get a consensus anytime soon, and the discussion overall is just straight up confusing. If anyone feels like this was a bad close, I would highly suggest opening a new discussion that would have a more straightforward purpose. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 17:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:DarwIn, a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is harassing me here after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. Skyshiftertalk 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use {{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~ on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --Yamla (talk) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics (Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is targeting the DYK nomination, again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute.
- Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. Skyshiftertalk 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --Yamla (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally edited the DYK page and put a "disagree", despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. His comment is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, he insisted saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, he reincluded the comment. I asked him to stop harassing me, but he has edited the page again.
- I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. Skyshiftertalk 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --Yamla (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already blocked at the Portuguese Wikipédia and Wikimedia Commons, the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, with an open case for sockpuppetry at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please. Darwin 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. Skyshiftertalk 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which you are well known for abusing whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. Darwin 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And here's explicit transphobia. It's her daughter, no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. Skyshiftertalk 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which you are well known for abusing whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. Darwin 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. Skyshiftertalk 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. Skyshiftertalk 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I would suggest Darwin review MOS:GENDERID. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. Simonm223 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? Darwin 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn, the bottom line is that you don't get to question that. As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is not the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them any good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. Blue Sonnet (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. Darwin 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. Darwin 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn, the bottom line is that you don't get to question that. As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is not the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them any good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. Blue Sonnet (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read Thamirys Nunes' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). Skyshiftertalk 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. Darwin 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including MOS:GENDERID) - otherwise you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. Darwin 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here.
- Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there.
- And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. Eduardo G. 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. Darwin 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the WP:GENSEX area.Simonm223 (talk) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would suggest a topic ban is imposed. GiantSnowman 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would support a topic ban from WP:GENSEX. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. GiantSnowman 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? Darwin 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. Darwin 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. Darwin 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. Darwin 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You fundementally misunderstand the scope of WP:BLP and the concept of topic area as well. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. Darwin 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it was a collective you. Darwin 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it was a collective you. Darwin 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. Darwin 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You fundementally misunderstand the scope of WP:BLP and the concept of topic area as well. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. Darwin 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would support a topic ban from WP:GENSEX. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. Nil Einne (talk) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- None of this is relevant. We follow sources and MOS:GENDERID. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would suggest a topic ban is imposed. GiantSnowman 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including MOS:GENDERID) - otherwise you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. Darwin 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? Darwin 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I would suggest Darwin review MOS:GENDERID. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. Simonm223 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. GiantSnowman 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I've continued to post where? Darwin 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? Darwin 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? GiantSnowman 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have my own disagreements with that guideline, and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. Darwin 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? Darwin 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn This one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Ad Orientem I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. Darwin 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn Easiest way to defuse this is to post a bolded and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" Darwin 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. GiantSnowman 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" Darwin 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn Easiest way to defuse this is to post a bolded and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Ad Orientem I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. Darwin 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn This one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? Darwin 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. Darwin 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have my own disagreements with that guideline, and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? GiantSnowman 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. Darwin 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. Darwin 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 Darwin 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. Darwin 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? Darwin 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Because of edits like this . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? Darwin 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? Darwin 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I answered a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. Darwin 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. Darwin 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. Darwin 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I answered a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. Darwin 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? Darwin 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? Darwin 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Because of edits like this . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? Darwin 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. Darwin 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 Darwin 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. Darwin 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. Darwin 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway. Darwin 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. Darwin 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary one-way interaction ban, broadly construed, as in effect. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway yes, that's correct. Darwin 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary one-way interaction ban, broadly construed, as in effect. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. Darwin 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about righting great wrongs in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. Isabelle Belato 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? Darwin 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. Isabelle Belato 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me in the English Misplaced Pages? Darwin 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? Darwin 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me in the English Misplaced Pages? Darwin 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. Isabelle Belato 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? Darwin 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Would recommend that Darwin walk away from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Clarification
- Hello @Nil Einne - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in my country, to the point of eventually configuring a crime here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much.
- As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ILGA Portugal, which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that.
- The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here.
- Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan.
- And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. Darwin 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
Proposed Community Sanctions
I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this.
Proposed DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to WP:GENSEX broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. PS - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. GoodDay (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? TarnishedPath 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support topic ban and IBAN, both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. GiantSnowman 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Just read through the above and good grief. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. Simonm223 (talk) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. Ymblanter (talk) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's actually a fair point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent WP:RGW impulse. Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 You have been misjudging me - It was quite the opposite, actually, if it's worth anything. Darwin 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the WP:GENSEX area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. Simonm223 (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). Darwin 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the WP:GENSEX area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. Simonm223 (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 You have been misjudging me - It was quite the opposite, actually, if it's worth anything. Darwin 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent WP:RGW impulse. Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's actually a fair point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- If they weren't before they are now... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, to be clear, I oppose a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. Ymblanter (talk) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. Darwin 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back And those were the only ones, and I voluntarily stopped them yesterday immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to my stance here. You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. Darwin 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? Darwin 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ Darwin 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? Darwin 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back There was not any "lie", please stop assuming bad faith. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". Darwin 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin has a long history of editing in WP:GENSEX albeit generally less controversially. an example. Simonm223 (talk) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. Darwin 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- DarwIn WP:GENSEX covers gender and sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. Darwin 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- DarwIn WP:GENSEX covers gender and sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. Darwin 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back There was not any "lie", please stop assuming bad faith. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". Darwin 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? Darwin 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ Darwin 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? Darwin 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back And those were the only ones, and I voluntarily stopped them yesterday immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to my stance here. You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. Darwin 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. Darwin 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support per Bushranger. charlotte 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. Springee (talk) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. * Pppery * it has begun... 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Pppery: days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ⇒SWATJester 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. Nil Einne (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? Darwin 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times #c-DarwIn-20241229133200-Skyshifter-20241229132800, #c-DarwIn-20241229152900-Simonm223-20241229150600, #c-DarwIn-20241229154200-Blue-Sonnet-20241229154000, #c-DarwIn-20241229154100-Simonm223-20241229153800, #c-DarwIn-20241229160700-GiantSnowman-20241229154400, #c-DarwIn-20241229172200-Ad_Orientem-20241229171800. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like thought police. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here. Darwin 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. Darwin 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- User:DarwIn, I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. Liz
- @Liz: Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that. Darwin 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. Nil Einne (talk) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. Nil Einne (talk) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- User:DarwIn, I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. Liz
- I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. Darwin 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like thought police. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here. Darwin 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times #c-DarwIn-20241229133200-Skyshifter-20241229132800, #c-DarwIn-20241229152900-Simonm223-20241229150600, #c-DarwIn-20241229154200-Blue-Sonnet-20241229154000, #c-DarwIn-20241229154100-Simonm223-20241229153800, #c-DarwIn-20241229160700-GiantSnowman-20241229154400, #c-DarwIn-20241229172200-Ad_Orientem-20241229171800. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? Darwin 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it.
- MiasmaEternal☎ 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - Per GoodDay and Springee. Ciridae (talk) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.Boynamedsue (talk) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of MOS:GENDERID may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer WP:AGF. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Support TBAN/IBANWeak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN - WP:NQP suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate WP:NOTHERE behavior. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- "A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. EEng 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. EEng 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- OK boomer. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. EEng 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK boomer. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. EEng 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- "A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. EEng 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.Boynamedsue (talk) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP WP:DROPTHESTICK - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. Simonm223 (talk) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. Simonm223 (talk) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of WP:PG, and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN.
- sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- ... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour there would be no mention of WP:NPA. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture continues to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. Simonm223 (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose as unnecessary given the commitments already given. WaggersTALK 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
| Let's not. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). Edited to include edit conflict comment. CNC (talk) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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| This is affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
As a ptwiki user that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage (here)/in her UP, thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the block discussion (in portuguese). The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it. This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone. I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my portuguese talk page (direct url). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. Eduardo G. 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community "worms, scoundrels, trash and deniers". And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user already tried to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, went to Meta-Wiki in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. InvictumAlways (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
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- InvictumAlways - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? jellyfish ✉ 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Jardel The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, as you said yourself previously. Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Supporting both IBAN and TBAN. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. Nil Einne (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain.
- concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Children cannot consent, their parents can. (CC) Tbhotch 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--Boynamedsue (talk) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? Nil Einne (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. Simonm223 (talk) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? Nil Einne (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. Nil Einne (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support TBAN, no comment on IBAN. This is blatant POV harassment. (CC) Tbhotch 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- Patar knight - /contributions 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose any sanctions I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate WP:OR on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. Dronebogus (talk) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support TBAN, indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this WP:NOTHERE type editing, whether it is attempting to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS or simply WP:BLUDGEONING discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. CNC (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Skyshifter, if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to deëscelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. JayCubby 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite (here) to boot. Relm (talk) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY.
- Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am.
- Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages.
- I support the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community.
- I oppose with the IP-ban because if anything this SHOULD’VE ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing.
Reader of Information (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)- No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. Relm (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents.
- NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent.
- Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- This reply reminded me of the essay WP:CLUE. CNC (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. Reader of Information (talk) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- This reply reminded me of the essay WP:CLUE. CNC (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. Relm (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. TarnishedPath 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at Special:Diff/1267644460 accusing me of coming to their talk page to "
further troll me with this nonsense warning
". TarnishedPath 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at Special:Diff/1267644460 accusing me of coming to their talk page to "
- Support both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --Aquillion (talk) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support both. To make sure I haven't lost my goddamn mind, I read this discussion twice. I personally believe Darwin is in the wrong here. His behavior on enwiki violates both GENSEX and BLP sanctions (), and he doubled down when he had the chance to defend himself (Special:Diff/1267644460 and comments above). Even if we play devil's advocate and assume Darwin's claims about Sky being a troll/vandal and sockmaster (which is a heavy accusation to make) on ptwiki are true, her work on enwiki has shown that she's changed for the better. This is coming from a person who has interacted with Sky a couple of times (Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Virtual Self (EP)/archive1, Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Virtual Self (EP)/archive2, Talk:Quannnic/GA1); she is an amazing editor on here. For the sake of everyone involved and to avoid another mess like this, the sanctions above should be enforced. 💽 LunaEclipse 💽 🌹 ⚧ 08:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Skyshifter taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge.
| 100% affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this WP:BOOMERANGs on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. Liz 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. On the 29th of December, User:Skyshifter started an AN/I based on a claim that User:DarwIn, a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination here. AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate. She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log. This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage (here and in her UP), casting aspersions over other users and using ducks and meatpuppets to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it here, with all the proofs). The block discussion taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever. Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was personal and for revenge. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under pt:WP:NDD, here called WP:ASPERSIONS I think, and disruptive editing/WP:POINT, and in the AN/I above she's commiting WP:BLUDGEON, repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment. Eduardo G. 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
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Incivility and ABF in contentious topics
Hob Gadling's uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it is problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:
Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883
WP:NPA
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324
Profanity
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966
Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877
Unicivil
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441
Contact on user page attempted
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795
Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Think this calls for a fierce trout slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a forced wikibreak according to WP:COOLDOWN, as this is just an angry user and frankly, I don't see direct personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as
some diffs from the past few days
are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. BarntToust 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)- Would I be the person to provide you with that
further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions
? I did think that it would be more than a WP:FISHSLAP, since that's forone-off instances of seemingly silly behavior
and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern warning. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Would I be the person to provide you with that
- @Lardlegwarmers: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. Hob should know better, and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to WP:AVOIDEDITWAR. But I would caution you about WP:BOOMERANG and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your inappropriate recently deleted user page, removing sections from other people's talk page, and it seems like you're having a problem handling a WP:DISPUTE and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.
- Furthermore it does appear that you might be WP:FORUMSHOPPING because your attempts at WP:POVPUSH for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. passively accusing editor behavior, directly accusing a specific editor bad behavior, claiming WP is political, RSN Report #1, RSN Report #2 to push for an article edit request, bringing the Covid discussion over to the teahouse, and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding Misplaced Pages's policy and guidelines and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards WP:CONSENSUS. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. TiggerJay (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. (
All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.
]) Thank you for your time and input. - Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here:
trying to report other editors in bad faith
. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. (
@Lardlegwarmers: Jay brought something to my attention with a recent version of your user page. It looks like there is large language model (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason! I'm confused. This specific revision also assumes bad faith about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.
I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, since you are here at ANI now, what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT, in your own words. BarntToust 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @Thebiguglyalien, I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a formal warning or a trout slap is what needs to happen to Hob. BarntToust 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @IntrepidContributor, I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. please look at this diff on Lardle's user page for context, in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. BarntToust 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks! *curtsy* Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- ...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". GiantSnowman 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- ...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' here? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word bullshit, which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, this supposed "disparag of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills" seems pretty temperate. And so on. Bishonen | tålk 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
- I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at this user page discussion where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - Palpable (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Hob Gadling failing to yield to WP:BLPRESTORE, apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. SmolBrane (talk) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Propose serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Recuse
Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. SmolBrane (talk) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Recuse
- Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to BarntToust above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a note, Hob Gadling removed the ANI notice without comment and has not responded here. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
| Extended discussion |
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Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. BarntToust 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
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It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing WP:FRINGE misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as here, and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as here. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. Silverseren 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!)
bullshit
to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that that was what led Lardlewarmers to try and their target on their talk page, a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward WP:BOOMERANG situation. --Aquillion (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "turn over a new leaf" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to tell people to stop before it's too late and stop treating aggressive or uncivil behavior as a "lesser" crime. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a chronic and ongoing habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!)
- I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Silver_seren-20241231185800-Slatersteven-20241230182700) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type. As the Alien above said, you
Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning.
now WP:DROPTHESTICK. TiggerJay (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to Misplaced Pages:Civility, the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the fallacies contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ad hominem, as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person (Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250103194100-Hob Gadling-20250102085800). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record I do agree with you that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been bating you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, rather we depend on WP:RS and WP:UNDUE to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to
steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person
. However, that is not what I read in that reply. Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! TiggerJay (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250105151700-Credibility_of_major_scientific_journals_on_Covid) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. TiggerJay (talk) 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250105151700-Credibility_of_major_scientific_journals_on_Covid) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record I do agree with you that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been bating you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, rather we depend on WP:RS and WP:UNDUE to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to
- No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to Misplaced Pages:Civility, the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the fallacies contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ad hominem, as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person (Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250103194100-Hob Gadling-20250102085800). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type. As the Alien above said, you
Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a lesser offense
. Simonm223 (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. Simonm223 (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you are describing is a different idea: the COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy theory. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus.
the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ]
The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.
(]) Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Beyond what @Objective3000 said, for all parties, it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil WP:BRINE. TiggerJay (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should not be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Beyond what @Objective3000 said, for all parties, it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil WP:BRINE. TiggerJay (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from WP:FTNCIVIL or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - Palpable (talk) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am in the diffs.
- I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - Palpable (talk) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above:
Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.
] Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above:
- They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you are describing is a different idea: the COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy theory. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus.
- It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. Simonm223 (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
| Extended discussion |
|---|
|
- Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400
Send to AE?
Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to WP:AE since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".
- That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - Palpable (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The IP made no such claim? - The Bushranger One ping only 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - Palpable (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- FYI WP:AE is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - Palpable (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The IP made no such claim? - The Bushranger One ping only 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. Zaathras (talk) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why wp:Being right is not enough is policy.
- Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. User:Barkeep49/Friends don't let friends get sanctioned. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. SmolBrane (talk) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I second to motion to bring this to WP:AE. BarntToust 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit warring to prevent an RFC
@Axad12 has removed an RFC tag from Talk:Breyers#Request for comment on propylene glycol now twice within an hour.
Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Reasons and ways to end RfCs provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list.
We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an Misplaced Pages:Ownership of content problem or a Misplaced Pages:Walled garden that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm not saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in some cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute.
I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/FAQ. See you tomorrow. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC.
- I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith.
- The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. Axad12 (talk) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. Axad12 (talk) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have absolutely no conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. Cullen328 (talk) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. WhatamIdoing, a {{trout}} for WP:GRENADEing. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template.
- The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. Axad12 (talk) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be falsely accused of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that
exceptionally serious abuse
? Cullen328 (talk) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be falsely accused of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that
- Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. Axad12 (talk) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request.
- I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request).
- As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content.
- Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. Axad12 (talk) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Asking a second time" is not WP:Gaming the system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. Axad12 (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the WP:UPPERCASE. See, e.g., An editor gaming the system is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support. Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy.
- I also direct your attention to the item that says Gaming the system may include...Filibustering the consensus-building process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to WP:GAMINGTHESYSTEM, which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. Axad12 (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. Axad12 (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Asking a second time" is not WP:Gaming the system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not
highly misleading
. - I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. Axad12 (talk) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? Phil Bridger (talk) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved.
- I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. Axad12 (talk) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when WP:COIN can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one fad diet book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer.
- But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my not-inconsiderable experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself.
- It isn't really relevant here but actually I didn't expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. Axad12 (talk) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor tag-teamed with Graywalls, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article. Both users refused collaboration on the Breyers article content at DRN.
Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue.
Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (article link) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative.
Proposal: Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and here, as another example, Axad12 and Graywalls should be A-banned from the Breyers article and its talk page.
Support. Zefr (talk) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Strike as withdrawn for Axad12 ABAN to concur with Cullen328 and the oppose decisions below.
- Graywalls is a separate case remaining undecided here. Over the 2024 article and talk page history at Breyers, this user was the main purveyor of disinformation, and has not acknowledged his talk page hostility and errors of judgment, despite abundant presentation of facts, sources, explanations, and challenges for information below. Graywalls should commit to abstain from editing the Breyers article for a given period, as Axad has done. Zefr (talk) 00:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Zefr:, your domineering and territoriality to that article is a big part of escalation and if anyone, it should be you who should refrain from it. Blatantly disregarding consensus and going so far as saying
Statements of facts supported by reliable sources do not need talk page consensus.
as done in here which goes to show you feel you're above consensus. You weren't persuaded until you were corrected by two administrors Aoidh and Philknight on the matter on the belief you're entitled to insert certain things against consensus. You also were blocked for the fifth time for edit warring in that article, with previous ones being at different articles with dispute with other editors, which shows your lack of respect for community decision making. Graywalls (talk) 17:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose: I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard.
- I have not
ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate
, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them. - Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024.
- I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make.
- Also, the idea that I made a
hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC
is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect. - I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time.
- Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at WP:COIN, but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. Axad12 (talk) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. here, because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see User_talk:DMacks#Breyers_disruptive_editing for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling Special:Diff/1261441062. @Aoidh: also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see Special:Diff/1257252695 Graywalls (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd just like to echo that sentiment. I'm all in favour of consensus.
- My position on this article hasn't been motivated by a partisan view on Propylene Glycol but has simply been in relation to serving the consensus position as it stood at the time. That is the approach I hope I adopt on all Misplaced Pages articles. If the consensus alters on this article (as seems likely) then I'll adopt the same approach in relation to serving the new consensus.
- My primary area of interest on this website is COI issues. I'm simply not interested in content disputes or in pushing any kind of POV on Misplaced Pages. I'm not the sort of user who flagrantly disregards a newly emerging consensus by editing contrary to the outcome of an RfC.
- I'd welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that going forwards (i.e. without an article ban). Axad12 (talk) 06:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mention by Graywalls for an RfC on 27 Dec had no influence on the one existing. As an uncomplicated process, an editor truly sincere in having community input would have posed a simple objective question. Graywalls, why didn't you take 5 minutes and create the RfC question you wanted? What would have been your RfC question?
- Specifically for propylene glycol (you are still defending its use in the article by adding another garbage source yesterday - see comments about this book in the RfC):
what do you believe propylene glycol does in a frozen dessert and what would you prefer the article to say about propylene glycol? I have asked for this clarification on the talk page many times and in the DRN, but you ignored the opportunity to collaborate and clarify.
- Have you read the sources in this talk page topic?
- Your reverts in article history and combative talk page behavior over months revealed a persistent intent to disparage the Breyers article, focus on the "antifreeze" slur (mainly promoting this source), and restore a skeletal version having no sources more recent than 2018 here, after tag-teaming with Axad12 to do your bidding on 17 Nov. That version also has misinformation under the section 'Ice cream', falsely stating that Breyers changed their ice cream ingredients by using other additives, which in fact, were used to evolve a new category of frozen desserts not intended to be ice cream. I believe you know this, but you and Axad12 persisted to favor misinformation for the article.
- The RfC I provided came from steps in the lead of WP:RFC: 1) generally poor talk page progress, where one editor seeking facts verified by current sources was opposed by Graywalls, Adax12, and NutmegCoffeeTea, all defending a version including "antifreeze"; 2) an RSN post here where Graywalls argued that a web link by the Seattle PI made the Motley Fool article an RS; 3) initiate DRN for which Graywalls, Axad12, and NutmegCoffeeTea abstained from collaboration to improve the article; 4) providing a science- and law-based talk page topic on 19 Dec, which appears to be willfully ignored by Axad12 and Graywalls, who responded only with hostility and defiance against the facts; 5) seeking third opinions from admins, first by BD2412 (talk page on 29-30 Nov) and by DMacks on 27 Dec, resulting in verbose trolling by these two users. Axad12's response on 27 Dec was to revert constructive edits and tag-team with Graywalls.
- Axad12 and Graywalls should be ABANNED from the Breyers article for exhibiting 1) hostility on the talk page to good faith proposals for making the article better, and 2) persistence to perpetuate misinformation on propylene glycol. Simply, what history shows that either editor has tried to improve the Breyers article? Both users meet most of the definitions of WP:NOTHERE for the article, its talk page, and the RfC. Zefr (talk) 18:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Zefr, I've already indicated on several occasions that I welcome and support the developing new consensus. Graywalls has made a similar comment below. That being the case, I don't really see what purpose an article ban would be intended to serve.
- Admittedly there has been some quite heated disagreement over recent months, but it seems that we all now have the robust talkpage consensus that we were hoping for in one way or another and that all three of us are happy to move forward in support of that consensus.
- You were clearly in the minority for quite a long time and I can appreciate that you found that experience frustrating. However, to continue to make allegations above of bad faith, trolling, tagteaming, etc. about those who constituted the valid majority for several months is just an attempt to perpetuate strife on an issue which is now, as far as I can see, satisfactorily resolved. Axad12 (talk) 19:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Filed under: sometimes you hurt articles by treating COI editors as the enemy. The problem here is two users who should really know better edit-warring over the course of months to reinstate TikTok diet influencer silliness into a Misplaced Pages article, repeatedly reinstating WP:PROFRINGE content (implicitly, if not explicitly). We currently treat a little "avoid antifreeze" bubble in a diet book (which includes Breyers in a list of brands) and a book published by one of RFK Jr's antivax publishers as WP:DUE for including the insinuation that an FDA-approved and much-conspiratorialized additive is harmful. They've been repeatedly removed, but two editors keep putting them back, whether because of a misunderstanding of WP:MEDRS/WP:FRINGE or in pursuit of COI purification. — Rhododendrites \\ 13:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I take your point but I think you're misjudging the situation somewhat. Prior to the opening of the current RfC it was approximately 6 or 7 users in favour of inclusion vs 3 or 4 favouring exclusion. I only reverted the attempts at exclusion because those attempts were contrary to the talk page consensus.
- I'm perfectly open to the suggestion that that consensus position was wrong but the simple fact of the matter was that there was at that time no consensus in favour of exclusion.
- It has only been in the last couple of days that the requesting editor has been able to demonstrate a consensus in favour of exclusion. And that's great, I have no problem with that at all. In fact I welcome it.
- My understanding is that editors wishing to make changes to article text should not do so if there is a consensus against what they are trying to do, and that under such circumstances an edit can be (indeed should be) reverted. If I'm mistaken on that score then I'm perfectly happy to take instruction. However, I really want to stress that my actions were based primarily upon that reasoning and were made in good faith. Axad12 (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Axad12, you should not revert something because other editors want it to be reverted. You should only make content changes that you personally support. This is necessary for BRD to work. See WP:BRDREVERT for an explanation of why. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rhododendrites:, the antifreeze matter is WP:DEADHORSE since I believe everyone's pretty much agreed it doesn't need to be in there. Zefr has taken issues with me, Axad12, NutMegCoffee and possibly some others. They've tried to get the article "set in place" to their preferred version, but that was declined admin Daniel Case who determined it to be content dispute Special:Diff/1260192461. Zefr inferring alleging I was
"uncooperative"not collaborating/cooperating in the way that he was hoping in DR, but I don't believe that to be so. There was nothing intentional on my part to not cooperate. I'll see if @Robert McClenon: would like to share their observation on that since they closed the dispute. - https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Breyers/Archive_2#c-Rusalkii-20240814014600-Inkian_Jason-20240801145900 here's another uninvolved editoring erring on the side of inclusion. A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus. Reading through the current plus the archived discussions, up until the RfC, the general consensus is in support of having PG mention and Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus. As I mentioned, if consensus changes with the RfC, I'm not opposed to going with that. Graywalls (talk) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) (adjusted Graywalls (talk) 13:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC))
- For the record, I never stated the word "uncooperative" at DRN or the Breyers talk page, but rather "non-collaborative", as discussed in the thread with Robert McClenon below.
- "Set in place to their preferred version" and "Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus" should be translated to using "facts verified by reliable sources", which is the simple goal for the Breyers article that Graywalls has obstructed over months.
- It's incredible that Graywalls says even today above, knowing the comments on the RfC and months of being presented with facts and sources about why propylene glycol is safely used in thousands of manufactured foods: "A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus."
- Here's your chance to tell everyone:
- Why do you feel propylene glycol was used in Breyers frozen desserts (in 2013, not since)? What concern do you have about it, and what government or scientific source says it's unsafe in the amounts regulated by federal laws? Give a sentence here that you think meets consensus and uses a reliable source. Zefr (talk) 01:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're right, you did not use that specific word. I've corrected my response due to wording. Graywalls (talk) 13:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
A Non-Mediator's Statement
I am not entirely sure why User:Graywalls has pinged me about this dispute, saying that I "closed this dispute". The accuracy of the statement that I "closed this dispute" depends on what is meant by "this dispute".
I closed the DRN thread, Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_252#Breyers, on 12 December. I obviously didn't resolve a dispute that has been continuing for another three weeks, and the claim that I closed the dispute looks to me like an attempt to confuse the jury. User:Zefr had opened the DRN thread on 3 December, complaining about the insertion of the word antifreeze and of the mention of propylene glycol. I was not entirely sure beyond the mention of antifreeze what the issues were. There were questions about what the procedure was for handling a one-against-many dispute; I think that Zefr was said to be the one. There was a long question that may have been about whether DRN is voluntary; DRN is voluntary. Then Zefr said that the case could be withdrawn because no one else was commenting. The disputants other than Zefr never did say exactly what the article content issues were, perhaps because they didn't want to discuss article content, and were not required to discuss article content. If anyone is implying that I resolved or settled anything, I have no idea what it was.
I see that the dispute either was continuing in other forums for three weeks, or has reopened. I see that User:Axad12 edit-warred to prevent an RFC from running, making vague but noisy statements about conflict of interest. I don't know who is said to be working for Unilever or for anyone else. It is clear that this dispute is longer on antagonism than on clarity. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon:, I pinged you, because I felt you'd be a good commentator to evaluate whether you also felt I was "not cooperative" in the process as Zefr says. I tried to participate, but it got closed shortly after I posted a comment in it. Graywalls (talk) 22:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Was that purposely mis-stated to be provocative and mislead the discussion here?
- I said you were non-collaborative, which describes your behavior throughout your editing history on the Breyers article, its talk page, and the DRN. You refused collaboration at DRN, which is the whole point of the process. DRN FAQ: "refusing participation can be perceived as a refusal to collaborate, and is not conducive to consensus-building."
- You were notified about the DRN on your talk page on 3 Dec, and you posted a general notice about it on the Breyers talk page on 6 Dec, so you were aware of the process, but ignored it. Meanwhile, your editing history over 6-12 Dec shows dozens of edits, including many on the Breyers talk page.
- You made no attempt to collaborate at DRN, posting only one off-topic comment on 12 Dec.
- I requested closure of the DRN on 12 Dec due to non-participation by you and the others. On 13 Dec, I notified the Breyers talk page of the DRN closure. cc: Robert McClenon. Zefr (talk) 00:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Zefr:, As been said to you by others, participation is not mandatory. Other editors are not required to and you shouldn't reasonably expect them to prioritize their real life schedule or their Misplaced Pages time on dispute that you runs on your own schedule to your DRN you started around your own schedule on your own terms. I have initially waited to give others time to comment as their time allows. I'm also not particularly fond of your berating, incivil, bad faith assuming comments directed at myself, as well as a few other editors and it's exhausting discussing with you, so I'm not feeling particularly compelled to give your matters priority in my Misplaced Pages time. Graywalls (talk) 06:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
A Possibly Requested Detail
Okay. If the question is specifically whether User:Graywalls was uncooperative at DRN, then I can state that they were not uncooperative and did not obstruct or disrupt DRN. Graywalls took very little part in the DRN proceeding before I closed it. They were not required to take part, although they say that they would have made a statement if the case had stayed open a little longer. The antagonism that I saw was between User:Zefr and User:Axad12, and I collapsed an exchange between them. I did not read what I am told were long previous discussions, because I expect the disputants at DRN to begin by telling me concisely what each of them wants to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Graywalls was not uncooperative at DRN. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. User:Zefr is making a slightly different statement, that User:Graywalls did not collaborate at DRN. That is correct. And I noted above that their mention that I had closed the dispute depended on what was meant by the "dispute". and looked like an attempt to confuse the jury. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon Zefr did not use the word uncooperative although did say uncollaborative and I used the two interchangeably in my ping. I did participate in it Special:Diff/1262763079. I haven't participated in DRN until that point, so I wasn't really sure how it worked. Graywalls (talk) 13:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
The actual content that led to this dispute
Two month ago, Breyers included this shockingly bad content: As of 2014, some flavors of Breyer's ice cream contains propylene glycol as an additive. Propylene glycol is a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze and it is clear fluid made by "treating propylene with chlorinated water to form the chlorohydrin, which is then converted to the glycol, an alcohol, by treating it with a sodium carbonate solution." Propylene glycol is formulated into Breyer's fat-free and Carb Smart ice cream to make it easier to scoop.
The notion that an article about an ice cream company should include a detailed description of how a Generally recognized as safe food additive is manufactured is bizarre enough, as is the cherrypicked and glaringly misleading assertion about "antifreeze", but the reference used to support the Breyers claim was a book called Eat It to Beat It!: Banish Belly Fat-and Take Back Your Health-While Eating the Brand-Name Foods You Love! written by a quack/crank diet profiteer named David Zinczenko. I invite any editor to take a search engine look at Zinczenko's body of work, and come away with the conclusion that his writings are anything other than fringe and unreliable. Despite the glaringly obviously non-neutral and tendentious problems with this shockingly bad content, editors including most prominently Graywalls and Axad12 dug in their heels, fighting a reargard action for nearly two months, determined to make this mundane routine ice cream company look as bad as possible. Their self-justification seems to be that big bad corporations have no right whatsover to try to remove atrociously bad content about their products from Misplaced Pages, and that any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association. I am not an advocate for corporations per se, but I am an advocate for corporations being treated neutrally like all other topics, rather with disdain and contempt, which was the case here, as I see it. I do not know what the best outcome is here, but I certainly encourage these two editors to refrain from any other unjustified and poorly referenced anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end. Cullen328 (talk) 07:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- A striking and shocking aspect of this sordid situation is that two editors, Graywalls and Axad12 were able to concoct a false "consensus" supporting various versions of this garbage content. And then when another editor tried to start a RFC about the appallingly bad content, Axad12 tried over and over and over again to stop the RFC and defend the atrocious content rather than correcting it, aided and abetted by Graywalls. When the RFC actually went live, it soon became clear that many editors agreed that the content these two editors advocated for was utterly inappropriate. Cullen328 (talk) 08:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Cullen,
- As per my comments above, my motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time. I did not
concoct
that consensus, at least 5 users other than me were against excluding the material. - I have never had any particularly strong opinion one way or the other on the content issue and I try as best as I can not to get involved in content disputes. I have not
dug in heels
or attempted to promote any kind of fringe opinion and nor have I engaged inanti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end
. - Similarly I do not hold the view that
any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association
, or any opinion even vaguely resembling that view. On the contrary, I have often implemented COI edit requests on behalf of corporations or have pointed out to corporate employees how such requests would need to be amended to conform with sourcing or other requirements. Repeatedly engaging in that activity would presumably make me veryevil
indeed, in my own eyes, if I held the view that you attribute to me. - I reverted the Breyer edits in good faith because there was no consensus in favour of them. If I was incorrect on a point of policy in that regard then fair enough, however please do not attempt to attribute to me sentiments which I do not harbour.
- Also, I did not attempt to stop the RfC
over and over and over again
. I removed the tag twice, then requested guidance from administrators and immediately replaced the tag when requested to do so. The tag was removed, in all, for a matter of minutes and had no meaningful impact on the progress of the RfC. I have accepted elsewhere that I now appreciate that the basis on which I removed the tag was inappropriate. I have also stated thatFrom my standpoint wasn't a process that I was familiar with - but I can see from the many excellent contributions here that this is the best way of resolving content disputes
. I have also stated that I welcome and support the new consensus. Axad12 (talk) 08:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , Axad12, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. Cullen328 (talk) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I
obviously dislike
Breyers or (their parent company) Unilever, or indeed that I consider either to beevil
? - To the best of my recollection, I've only ever made 3 mainspace edits to the Breyers article - each time on the stated basis in the edit summary that the edit I was reverting was contrary to consensus.
- I've re-read the extensive talk page discussions in recent days and I can only see that I ever commented on the COI angle and the nature of the consensus. Those comments were based on my understanding of policy at the time. I do not see
anti-corporate diatribes
or evidence that Iobviously dislike
Breyers or Unilever. - Indeed, I do not hold any particularly strong views on Breyers, Unilever or any other corporations. Axad12 (talk) 09:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said, Axad12, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to Talk: Breyers to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. Cullen328 (talk) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- My activity on that talk page has solely been in relation to pointing out what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was a valid COI concern and observing that from Aug to Dec there has never been a consensus in favour of exclusion.
- Anything beyond that is simply you attributing motives that do not exist.
- I have never stated or implied that
a corporation does not deserve neutrality
and nor do I hold such a view. - I happily admit that I'm quite animated and enthusiastic about COI issues and reverting edits which appear to be contrary to consensus. With the benefit of hindsight probably I should have let go of those issues at an earlier stage and vacated the field for those who actually had an appetite to argue on content grounds.
- I'd also point out that for a significant part of the last 2 months I had actually unsubscribed from the relevant talkpage threads and only ended up getting involved again due to being summoned to the Dispute Resolution thread. If I had been
determined over the last two months to maintain various versions of biased non-neutral content
then hopefully it stands to reason that I would not have unsubscribed in that way - thus resulting in a situation where I was actually completely unaware of much of the talkpage and mainspace activity over the period that you refer to. Axad12 (talk) 10:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your
motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time
. You are also obligated to actually look at the disputed content and the sources supporting it. Why didn't you do that? Why were you unable to see what multiple editors in the RfC are commenting about? You shouldn't just blindly revert content like that, without taking a look for yourself to see if the complaint about the disputed content has any merit, like it being reliably sourced and due for inclusion. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- That's a very fair question.
- The answer is that I was inclined to believe the opinions of editors much more experienced than myself who were against exclusion, particularly the editor who turned down the original COI edit request (whose work on COI edit requests I have the greatest of respect for).
- User Whatamidoing has already pointed out above that my error lay in accepting those users' opinions. I agree with Whatamidoing's observation there.
- I can only say that what I did was done in good faith based on my understanding of policy at the time. I now know where I erred (in several different ways) and I am glad to have received instruction in that regard.
- However, I really cannot accept the repeated suggestion that I vindictively masterminded a long anti-corporate campaign to keep bad material in an article. That suggestion is fundamentally not true. Axad12 (talk) 10:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I entirely accept that.
- For clarity, when I said
my understanding of policy at the time
I meant my understanding of policy at the time - I wasn't trying to suggest that the policy has changed since I made those edits. - What I am saying is that those edits were not made with malice, they were made because I accepted the opinions of other users more experienced than myself, opinions which I now know that I ought to have questioned. Axad12 (talk) 11:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said earlier in this thread, I am 100% supportive of the new consensus in favour of excluding the previously disputed material.
- Virtually all of my time on Misplaced Pages is spent at COIN and dealing with COI edit requests. I'm not the sort of user who spends their time edit warring over POV fringe material and generally being disruptive.
- So, the last thing I would ever do is attempt to reinstall material where a very robust consensus at RfC has indicated that it should be excluded.
- I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that I can be trusted in that regard. Axad12 (talk) 12:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, quite so. I have acknowledged my error in that regard in my first response to Isaidnoway, above, re: the very useful input I received from Whatamidoing. Axad12 (talk) 17:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad, if I read what you wrote correctly, and please correct me if I misunderstand: I will stay away from that article because I support the current consensus. My concern is what if consensus was to shift on that article? TiggerJay (talk) 17:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Apologies if my earlier response was unclear. My point was that I have absolutely no intention of edit warring over the previously disputed material (or any other material) so I don't see what purpose it would serve to ban me from the article.
- I have only ever made (to the best of my knowledge) 3 previous edits to the article (1 in November and 2 in December?). These were all on the basis of a misunderstanding on a point of policy which has been pointed out to me above and which I have happily acknowledged and accepted. The issue at stake was not that I harbour any partisan view in relation to the content dispute, it was that I edited to reflect the views of other editors whose opinions I respected on the matter in question.
- I do not see any reason for the community to anticipate that I would made a similar misunderstanding of policy going forwards.
- Hopefully this clarifies... Axad12 (talk) 17:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your
- As I said, Axad12, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to Talk: Breyers to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. Cullen328 (talk) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I
- Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , Axad12, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. Cullen328 (talk) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've been expecting something to happen around User:Axad12, whom I ran into several months ago during a dispute at COIN. What I noticed back in October was that Axad12 seemed to be clerking the noticeboard, making prosecutorial noises, and sometimes unsupported accusations (ex:
...the existence of COI seems quite clear...
1,...in relation to your undeclared conflict of interest...
2,As I said, the fact that there was a significant undeclared conflict of interest in relation to editing on Paralympic Australia-related articles was demonstrated some years ago.
3) towards what they thought of as COI editors (this was about whether User:Hawkeye7 had failed to adequately announce their conflict with Paralympic Australia, where they've been openly helping as a volunteer on our community's behalf for many years, and after they had just made an almost invisible contribution on the Signpost). I often find such clerking of noticeboards by relatively unseasoned users to be troublesome; Axad12 has 490 edits at COIN, about 12% of their total 3801 edits (but about a third of the roughly 1500 edits total on COIN since September). If you use a hammer all day, you might begin to think that all objects are potentially nails. BusterD (talk) 12:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin tried to close the thread and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. BusterD (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it would be a good idea for Axad12 to take a break from WP:COIN and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. BusterD (talk) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- In fairness, the overwhelming majority of my posts at COIN over the last year or so have been simple helpful contributions. The two matters discussed above were atypical and in both cases I've taken on board the advice I was given.
- If (per the figures above) I've been making about a third of all the contributions at COIN over that period then my behaviour would have been reported here long ago if I was either disruptive or incompetent.
- That said, I won't deny that I've been seriously considering retiring from Misplaced Pages over the last two months. The only reason I've not done so is because other users have specifically encouraged me to carry on because they value my work at COIN and on COI issues generally.
- All I can say is that what I have done, I have done in good faith and when I have occasionally erred I have learned lessons. I have acknowledged above that I've made mistakes and I'm grateful to those who have given me advice. Axad12 (talk) 15:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard is not the high achievement you might think it is. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. BusterD (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Buster, I know that we've had crossed words in the past so I'm grateful for your understanding and your measured response above. Yes, I deal with many bad faith users and yes it does wear on me sometimes.
- I don't claim any great expertise in COI matters but I do have the time to dedicate to the project and I've picked up a decent awareness of the methods that can be used to detect and prevent UPE/PROMO etc activity.
- I believe that in the past when I've been given advice on points of policy I've taken that advice on board and would hope to continue to do so in the future. Axad12 (talk) 17:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- This comment is not about you, but you might be interested in it: I've been thinking for years that a rotating duty system might be helpful. Of course we're all WP:VOLUNTEERS, but we might be less stressed, and get more representative results, if we each spent a week at ANI and a month at RSN and a week at CCI each year than if one editor spends all year at ANI and another spends all year at RSN (and nobody is at CCI – anyone who is looking for an opportunity to deal with really serious problems should please consider spending some time at Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations. The few regulars there will be so grateful, and who knows? You might find that you like it). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard is not the high achievement you might think it is. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. BusterD (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. BusterD (talk) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it would be a good idea for Axad12 to take a break from WP:COIN and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin tried to close the thread and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. BusterD (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do think that it's worth zooming out and looking at the article as a whole. Comparing the version from before the current rewrites started to the current version makes it obvious that the tone of the article has become vastly more promotional, with much more focus on glowy feel-good aspects that are only mentioned in lower-quality sources (the story about the original creator hand-churning it?) And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) to the weird
In 2013, Breyers introduced frozen desserts made with food additives (section above) that were intended to create smooth, low-calorie products. However, the new desserts evoked complaints by some consumers who were accustomed to the traditional "all-natural" Breyers ice cream.
, which 100% reads like marketing-speak (downplaying the reaction by making it sound like it's just that people loved the old version so much. In fact, the current version doesn't mention Breyer's cost-cutting measures at all, even though it's a massive aspect of coverage.) That doesn't necessarily justify the version above, but it's important to remember that this was originally a one-word mention in a larger list -Following similar practices by several of their competitors, Breyers' list of ingredients has expanded to include thickeners, low-cost sweeteners, food coloring and low-cost additives — including natural additives such as tara gum and carob bean gum; artificial additives such as maltodextrin and propylene glycol; and common artificially separated and extracted ingredients such as corn syrup, whey, and others
, the longstanding wording, is not unreasonable and doesn't really imply that there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol, just that it's an additive. I think the context of that larger shift to a much more promotional tone to the article is significant (and looking over talk, most of the actual dispute has focused on that.) --Aquillion (talk) 17:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the source being used doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was added back here as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, about this And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) – I don't know what other sources say, but the cited sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually WP:Directly support a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- (As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at Talk:Breyers instead of here.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, WhatamIdoing, and Isaidnoway: would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? Graywalls (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't mind, but my contribution to this thread is relatively minor. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, WhatamIdoing, and Isaidnoway: would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? Graywalls (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- (As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at Talk:Breyers instead of here.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, about this And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) – I don't know what other sources say, but the cited sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually WP:Directly support a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the source being used doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was added back here as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks, and a Diddly Question
I would like to thank User:Cullen328 for providing the background and content information. I also have a possibly minor question for User:Axad12. They edit-warred to try to stop the RFC on the content, and said that there was an exceptionally serious abuse
of the conflict of interest process. I may not have done enough background research, but I don't see where they have identified who has been the paid editor or undisclosed paid editor, or what the conflict of interest content is. If there has been paid editing, who has done it, and have they been dealt with? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, probably the best single overview of the COI issue is given in this post .
- My impression at the time of the events, and subsequently, was that the activity was designed to distort the COI edit request process. I still feel that what happened re: the COI edit requests was irregular but I note that no other user seems to have supported me in that regard so I've not taken the matter any further. Similarly, while I felt that those events had a bearing on the RfC I now accept that the RfC relates solely to the content matter specifically under discussion. Axad12 (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find your characterization of events inaccurate. You stated "we have the resubmission of the request to remove the disputed material in a COI edit request thread here "
- But this was not a resubmission. The original COI request was to remove a list of ingredients (including propylene glycol) which was sourced to a blog and which the COI editor says is outdated and doesn't reflect current ingredients. Meanwhile, the link you give as an example of "resubmission" was the COI editor requesting the removal of "the recent content addition related to propylene glycol". Both requests involve propylene glycol, but they are clearly separate requests concerning separate content.
- We want COI editors to propose changes to talk pages. The fact that this COI editor, apparently frustrated by a lack of responses to their requests went to the Food and Drink Wikiproject to request someone look at their edits, and then went to an active participant of said Wikiproject and requested they look at their requests, is not suspicious or abnormal. And I think it's highly inappropriate how Axad12 argued at length on the talk page that User:Zefr was "cultivated" by the COI editor "to do their bidding". I support other editors in recommending Axad12 take a break from COI issues. Photos of Japan (talk) 00:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd just like to stress here that I only linked to my post above because Robert McClenon asked for the background to the COI element. I was not trying to re-open that issue or to request that any action be taken on that issue. I have already accepted that there is absolutely no support for the position I adopted there. Axad12 (talk) 04:00, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- This doesn't answer my question. The link is to a conversation between User:Axad12, User:Graywalls, and administrator User:DMacks. The links from that conversation show that there is antagonism between Axad12 and Graywalls on the one hand and User:Zefr on the other hand. They show that there is discussion of conflict of interest, but they show no direct evidence of conflict of interest editing by any editor. They don't answer who is said to be a paid editor making edit requests, aside from the fact that paid editors are supposed to make edit requests rather than editing directly, so I am still not sure what the issue is. I haven't seen any evidence of abuse, let alone of
exceptionally serious abuse
that warranted edit-warring to prevent an RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- The paid editor is User:Inkian Jason who is open and transparent about their COI. The edit request which began this episode was when Inkian Jason began this discussion where they pinged User:Zefr about having uploaded a photo of the company's logo and asking if they would be willing to add it to the article. Secondary to that they also asked about the appropriateness of the recently added propylene glycol content. The COI issues centered around whether Inkian Jason "cultivated" Zefr by pinging him to remove the added propylene glycol text after they had previously requested the deletion of a sentence about the various ingredients used in the ice cream (which included propylene glycol). Photos of Japan (talk) 05:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal 2: Article Ban of Axad12 from Breyers
(Proposal 1 has been lost up in the early postings.) I propose that User:Axad12 be article-banned from Breyers and Talk:Breyers for six months. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. Axad12 (talk) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite article ban, an I-ban with Zefr, and a topic ban on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? EducatedRedneck (talk) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The purpose of the counter proposal was simply to indicate that I have only good intentions going forwards and I am happy to demonstrate those intentions upon pain of the strongest possible sanction. Evidently I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking, as I'm aware that eyes will understandably be upon me going forwards.
- As I've said before, I'm a good faith user and I'm amenable to taking instruction when I have erred. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that without being subject to a formal ban. Axad12 (talk) 05:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on
pain of an indefinite site ban
. "A rose by any other name" comes to mind here. Your voluntary adherence to the terms of the proposal would be indistinguishable from being compelled into adherence by threat of an indef. If you still want this course of action, fair enough, I just don't think it'll do what you're envisioning. EducatedRedneck (talk) 05:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on
- I really don't recommend that, Axad. Sure, take a break from that article if you want to. But it's really easy to forget about a dispute years later, or even for a company to change names and suddenly you're on that article without knowing it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- For clarification, I would be happy to undertake voluntarily any measures that the community may suggest and upon pain of any sanction that the community may suggest. I believe that there is value to undertaking such measures voluntarily because it allows one to demonstrate that one can be trusted.
- Also just a brief note to say that in about an hour and a quarter's time I will have no internet access for the next 12-14 hours. Any lack of response during that period will simply be for that reason and not due to a wilful refusal to communicate. Hopefully I have indicated above that I have been happy to respond to all questions.
- No doubt matters will progress in my absence and I will find out my fate upon my return. Axad12 (talk) 05:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite article ban, an I-ban with Zefr, and a topic ban on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? EducatedRedneck (talk) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. Axad12 (talk) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as less stringent than what Axad has proposed above within this section, but still prevents further disruption. EducatedRedneck (talk) 06:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose because Axad12 seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. Cullen328 (talk) 08:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. I also oppose Axad12's counter proposal. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Given Cullen328's comment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose per above. I just don't see a need for such strict measures. Photos of Japan (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal 3: Article Ban of Axad12 from COIN
Clerking at COIN seems to have given User:Axad12 the idea that everyone whom they don't know is probably a paid editor, and something has given them the idea that they can identify "exceptionally serious abuse" without providing direct evidence. I propose that User:Axad12 be article-banned from WP:COIN for two months. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that
everyone whom don't know is probably a paid editor
. The overwhelming majority of my contributions at COIN are simple constructive contributions and the matter described above is highly atypical. Axad12 (talk) 04:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that
- Oppose because Axad12 seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. Cullen328 (talk) 08:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Given Cullen328's comment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would prefer it if Axad12's voluntary commitment was to stay away from WP:COIN rather than the company article in particular. It is very unhealthy, both for Misplaced Pages and for the particular user, for anything like a third of the edits on any noticeboard to be from any one user. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support this is a good idea, and not vindictive. It will do Axad12 some good to get away from the COIN for awhile, and get out there and roam around Misplaced Pages and see where else they can contribute constructively. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think a formal ban is unnecessary. Axad has done a remarkably good job of articulating a positive response to this incident, and it's to his credit that he has reacted so constructively under such pressure.
- I also think it's good for everyone to try something different on occasion. I think it's easier to walk away for a bit if you're sure that others will step up to fill your place. So with such proposals (not just this one), I'd love to see people saying not only that they support giving someone a break, but also that they'll try to step up to help out in that page/process/noticeboard for the length of a ban. It could be as little as checking in once a week or answering the easy questions. Who is willing to actually be supportive in practice? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- People will fill the space. WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensible. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's only for two months, it's a good thing to get away and get a breath of fresh air, and yes, his response has been positive, but even he admits in the Breyer debacle, he was relying on other editor's opinions in evaluating the disputed content, so getting away from the COIN desk for a couple of months, and getting some experience in other areas of the encyclopedia will be beneficial, if and when, he returns to COIN. Isaidnoway (talk) 22:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don’t want to derail the voting process here, but a couple of points in relation to COIN…
- (Apologies for the length of this post but I feel the contents are relevant.)
- 1) It has been observed elsewhere that “COIN has no teeth” (forgive me for the absence of a diff but I think it's a commonly acknowledged idea). I've discussed that issue at some length with Star Mississippi and they've acknowledged that there is (in their opinion) insufficient admin oversight at COIN and that too many threads have historically gone unresolved without action being taken against promo-only accounts (etc).
- Star Mississippi has encouraged me to refer such cases to admins directly to ask them to intervene. I’ve been doing so over recent months and this has significantly improved positive resolutions on COIN threads.
- If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there. Thus, while I acknowledge Whatamidoing’s earlier point about cross-training etc, and the points made by other users, there is an underlying unresolved issue re: admin oversight at COIN, which might also be resolved via some kind of rota or by a greater number of admins looking in from time to time.
- I’ve not consciously been clerking, and I certainly don’t aspire to be “the co-ordinator of COIN”, but there is something of a vacuum there. Consequently I’ve often posted along the lines of “Maybe refer this to RPPI?”, “Is there a notability issue here?”, etc. etc. in response to threads that have been opened.
- I absolutely accept 100% that, in terms of experience, I’m probably not the best person to be doing that – but I have the time to do it and I have the inclination, and in the absence of anybody else serving that role I’ve been happy to do it. But, as I say, really this is an underlying unresolved issue of others not having the time or inclination rather than an issue of me going out of my way to dominate. What I'd really like is if there were others sharing that task.
- 2) Also I'm not really sure that the extent to which I perform that sort of role has any real link to me making assumptions about whether COI users have good or bad faith motivations. On the latter distinction I think it's fair to say that I'm usually (but admittedly not always) correct. There have also been occasions when others have been asking for action to be taken and I've been the voice who said "no, I think this is a good faith user who just needs some guidance on policy". I hope that I'm normally speaking fair in that regard.
- Most of the accounts who are taken to COIN are recent accounts who wrongly believe that Misplaced Pages is an extension of their social media. Most accounts who fall into that category are advised along those lines and they comply with policy or, sometimes, they just go away. Then there are the repeat customers who are often clearly operating in bad faith and where firmer action needs to be taken. I'm conscious of that distinction, which seems to me to be the single most important point when dealing with COIN cases. I've not been adopting some kind of hardline one-size-fits-all approach or characterising all COI activity as bad per se. However, more admin oversight at COIN would certainly be appreciated, if only so that there were a wider range of voices.
- Thus, in an ideal world I think I would continue to be allowed to operate at COIN, but as one of several regular contributors.
- Apologies for the length of this post but hopefully this is a useful and relevant contribution. Please feel free to hat this post if it is considered wildly off-topic. Axad12 (talk) 03:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- This comment just reinforces my support position that a two-month break is a good idea. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Isaidnoway, all I can say is that if Misplaced Pages is looking for people with the time and motivation to dedicate to the project, and who are amenable to taking instruction, then here I am.
- If I’ve been felt to be overly keen to contribute in a particular area then fair enough. I’m just not sure that a formal ban is the way to go about resolving that. Axad12 (talk) 05:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good grief, it's only two months, not a lifetime, I've taken breaks form the project longer than that, and guess what, the place didn't fall apart, and neither will COIN if you take a small break, formally or voluntarily. You claim -
If I’m not active at COIN then that won’t be happening and very little action will be being taken against the promo only accounts reported there.
I just don't believe that to be true, because as Phil Bridger points out - WP:COIN managed before Axad12 showed up, and will manage if they stop editing there. Nobody is indispensable. Isaidnoway (talk) 06:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- I really don't wish to argue, you've expressed your view and that's fine. However, the point of my long post above wasn't that "I am critical to COIN". The post was simply intended to highlight the fact that there are very few regular contributors at COIN and to express a hope that a wider range of contributors might get involved (following on from earlier related comments by Whatamidoing). That would be healthy all round, regardless of my situation.
- Also, when I've seen similar situations arise in the past, good faith (but over-active) users seem to usually be given the opportunity to voluntarily take steps to allay any community concerns, rather than being handed a formal ban. I'd just be grateful for a similar opportunity. Axad12 (talk) 06:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good grief, it's only two months, not a lifetime, I've taken breaks form the project longer than that, and guess what, the place didn't fall apart, and neither will COIN if you take a small break, formally or voluntarily. You claim -
- Apologies for the delay. I cannot provide a diff either as I can't recall where we had the conversation but acknowledging that what @Axad12 attributed to me is correct. There are simple blocks that are sometimes needed, but there aren't as many eyes on COIN to action them. I believe I've found merit to any Axad reported directly to me and if there were any I didn't take action, it was due to bandwidth as my on wiki time has been somewhat limited over the last six months. As for the merit of this report, I am not able to read through it to assess the issue so it would not be fair of me to weigh in on any element thereof. Star Mississippi 14:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- This comment just reinforces my support position that a two-month break is a good idea. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I have read through this long, entire discussion. I'd just like to point out to Axad12 that, to me, it's kind of like you are saying what you think we want to hear so it's hard to know how reflective this incident has caused you to be. I think it would be a mistake for you to think you only made mistakes regarding this one article and instead reconsider your approach to the entire COI area. Sometimes "the consensus" is not correct and can violate higher principles like NPOV and V.
- I'll just mention that the COI area has caused us to lose some invaluable editors, just superb and masterful editors who were on their way to becoming administrators. They devoted incredible amounts of time to this project. But their interest in rooting out COI and pursuing UPE caused them to completely lose perspective and think that they were a one-man/woman army and they took irresponsible shortcuts that led them to either leave the project voluntarily or be indefinitely blocked. It's like they fell down a rabbit hole where they began to think that the rules didn't apply to them because they had a "higher calling" of getting rid of COI. This lack of perspective caused us to lose some amazing editors, unfortunately, but ultimately they were damaging the project.
- You seem like an enthusiastic editor and I'd rather not see the same thing happen to you so I recommend you cut back on your time "clerking" COIN and just make this task one of a variety of areas you edit in instead of your primary activity. Liz 08:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Liz, thank you for your comments. I welcome your perspective and I'm not unaware of the dangers that you highlight.
- I think this is now day 5 of what has been a rather gruelling examination where I’ve co-operated to the very best of my ability. Most of the material under discussion has related to a series of regrettable misunderstandings where I’ve openly acknowledged my errors and would now like to move on.
- Therefore I’d be grateful if, following a period of reflection, I be given the latitude to continue my activities as I think best, taking on board all the very helpful advice that I’ve received from multiple users. At this moment in time I'm not sure exactly what that will look like going forwards, but it will involve a very significant (perhaps complete) reduction in my concentration on COI issues and much more time spent on improving articles in non-COI areas where I've previously contributed productively (e.g. detailed articles on specific chess openings).
- If I subsequently fall short of community expectations then by all means bring me back here with a view to imposing extreme sanctions. I do not think that that will end up being necessary.
- I have only the best of intentions but I must admit that I'm finding this prolonged process psychologically wearing. I therefore wondered if we might bring matters to a swift conclusion.
- I am genuinely very grateful for the thoughts of all who have contributed above.
- Kind regards, Axad12 (talk) 08:27, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hey, all: This thread's over 100 comments now. Can we please stop now? WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:59, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose. Sanctions are intended to be preventive, not punitive. At times Axad12 can get too aggressive, and removing the RfC template was one of that. Other issues were also raised but unless these issues continues, formal sanctions are unlikely necessary. Graywalls (talk) 17:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Complaint against User:GiantSnowman
There is no merit to the report against GiantSnowman. There is a rough consensus against, or at the very least no consensus for action toward Footballnerd2007 based on the mentorship proposal put forth and accepted and no further action is needed here. Star Mississippi 02:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 | This complaint has been withdrawn.See #Response from Footballnerd2007 below. |
Good Morning,
I am writing to formally lodge a complaint against User:GiantSnowman for repeated violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on personal attacks (WP:NPA) and casting aspersions (WP:ASPERSIONS) during a recent discussion.
Throughout the interaction, GiantSnowman has engaged in behavior that appears to contravene Misplaced Pages's behavioral guidelines, including but not limited to:
Casting aspersions without evidence:
- GiantSnowman repeatedly accused me of engaging in disruptive behavior, suggesting ulterior motives without providing any verifiable evidence.
- For instance, accusations of using ChatGPT to generate responses without concrete proof.
- Statements like “You are a liar and cannot be trusted” and other similar assertions lack civility and violate the principle of Assume Good Faith.
Aggressive tone and unwarranted accusations:
- The user's tone throughout the discussion has been hostile, escalating to direct personal attacks:
- Referring to me as a “liar” multiple times.
- Suggesting that I have been “deliberately disruptive” without presenting any factual basis.
Violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:ENCOURAGE:
- Misplaced Pages encourages editors to respond constructively to newcomers' efforts. However, GiantSnowman’s behavior has been dismissive and accusatory, discouraging participation and creating a hostile editing environment.
As an administrator, GiantSnowman is expected to set an example by adhering to Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies and fostering a collaborative environment. However, their actions in this instance fall far short of the standards expected of administrators, which further exacerbates the seriousness of this issue.
I understand that discussions can sometimes be contentious, but I believe there is no justification for violating WP:NPA or WP:ASPERSIONS. I respectfully request that administrators review the linked discussion and take appropriate action to address this behavior.
If any additional information or clarification is needed, I am happy to provide it. My intent is to ensure a respectful and collaborative editing environment for all Misplaced Pages contributors.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- The discussion I raised was at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Footballnerd2007, now closed. I raised concerns about this editor, who has (in brief) - undertake botched and inappropriate RM closures; re-factored other editor's talk page posts; randomly nominated another user with whom they have never interacted before for RFA; and messing with my user space draft. None of that was the conduct of a new editor here to learn the ropes, and I wanted a second pair of eyes.
- In the course of that discussion, it became highly suspect to multiple users that this user has been editing with LLM. They denied using Chat GPT and, when questioned further, refused to answer. That is why I said this user is a liar and cannot be trusted, and I stand by that assertion. GiantSnowman 12:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Pinging other editors who were involved in that ANI discussion or have posted concerns/advice on this user's talk page - @Liz, Voorts, Folly Mox, Tiggerjay, Extraordinary Writ, Tarlby, The Bushranger, Thebiguglyalien, and Cyberdog958: - think that is everyone, apologies if not. GiantSnowman 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for your speedy response. Now let other admins add their point of view. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given the closed section above - which was closed for a very good reason - I'd suggest that coming back to this page to complain and using an LLM to do it is a spectacularly bad idea. The community only has limited patience when dealing with editors who are causing timesinks for other edits, and I suspect that the section above was your limit. Black Kite (talk) 12:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BOOMERANG is worth reviewing. It may already be too late for you to withdraw your complaint, but it's probably worth an attempt. --Yamla (talk) 12:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Please, any passing uninvolved admin, block the OP now. Not least for using an LLM to generate a complaint that someone accused them of using ChatGPT to generate responses. Enough of our time has been wasted. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Again, this is mere conjecture. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Continuing to deny the obvious - especially when Tarlby ran your posts through multiple LLM checkers - is really not helping your case. For me, it shows you are not here in good faith and that you absolutely cannot be trusted. GiantSnowman 12:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, it's called people have eyes. Using LLMs this way is highly disrespectful and frankly disruptive. Boomerang block for WP:NOTHERE seems appropriate. Simonm223 (talk) 12:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (Responding to the ping, invovled) My perspective regarding LLM has been it really doesn't matter (to me) if you're using various technology tools constructively, such as a spell checker or grammar checker might have been viewed two decades ago. However, what really matter is how those tools are used and being responsible for how they're used. This editor has been evasive in their conversations and generally disruptive demonstrating WP:NOTHERE behavior by very peculiar / suspicious WP:Wikilawyering I've only seen in clear LLM cases. Yet, there is no point in bludgeoning to what degree, if any, an LLM is playing here, but because this is a clear example of WP:NOTHERE and failure to follow WP:PG despite many attempts to bring them to this users attention. TiggerJay (talk) 17:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- +1 to Phil Bridger. What struck me in the prior thread, over and over again, was how repeatedly evasive he was. "I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT..." "I never made any comment about LLMs in general." "I have no explanation." "Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully." "Which AI detectors are you using?" "The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively." And so on, and so on, and so on. Footballnerd2007 has been given chance after chance to answer plainly, without Wikilawyering or weasel-wording, and has instead stuck to the tactic of deflect, deflect, deflect. I don't know where Footballnerd2007 got the notion that the Fifth Amendment was the law of the land on Misplaced Pages, and that no boomerang can touch him as long as he admits to nothing. Let's just disabuse him of the notion. Ravenswing 12:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Again, this is mere conjecture. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Retaliatory BS; this should be closed immediately. Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
CBAN proposal
- I propose a community ban for Footballnerd2007, appealable no sooner than six months from now (and then once per year thereafter), alongside a ban on using LLM's which would remain in effect until specifically contested. At the time of writing, Footballnerd2007 has only 142 edits, a significant number of which are right here at WP:ANI. They are clearly a massive WP:NOTHERE time sink. I urged Footballnerd2007 to withdraw this complaint and warned about WP:BOOMERANG and that clearly didn't land. I think it's time for everyone else to get back to regular editing. --Yamla (talk) 12:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support, obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. GiantSnowman 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? Ravenswing 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. GiantSnowman 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll respond to this in depth later today. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I concede that I've been backed into a corner and now I need to do the right thing, stop with the defensive act and own up to my mistakes which I'll do in my statement later this afternoon. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I had my legal head on with the philosophy "defend until you can no more" - I now concede on reflection this is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages and that my actions were not the right way to go and for that I will take full responsibility in my statement. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. GiantSnowman 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's too late to withdraw now. You have to take responsibility for your behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? Ravenswing 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)
Support- on top of what's been posted on this thread, FN2007 has wiped their talk page by archiving without a link to the archive on the fresh talk page, without responding to Liz's advice. They also edited other people's comments to add things they didn't say when closing a RM discussion, and haven't responded when I pointed this out. These things alongside their LLM use (and subsequent wikilawyering "technically I only said I didn't use ChatGPT" responses), refusal to listen to good advice, and everything else in this topic, I think a community ban would be a good idea. BugGhost 🦗👻 13:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC) Update - striking support for cban, I think footballnerd's recent responses and CNC's offer of mentorship indicate that we may be able to avoid it. BugGhost 🦗👻 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)- The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? GiantSnowman 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will go back and thank her for that. Because I had been advised that your actions could have violated WP policy and thought it would be a good way to deflect the blame, in heinsight it was absolutely the wrong course of action. I would like to draw a line under this whole sorry situation and move on with the reason that I joined once my statement has been published and the subsequent discussion has concluded. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? GiantSnowman 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (another (edit conflict) To clarify, I don't think Footballnerd is doing anything malicious or deliberately trying to time-waste. I think they are a misguided new bold editor who unfortunately doesn't listen to advice and is stubborn to self-reflect. If this cban goes ahead I urge them to appeal in 6 months with a better understanding of how wikipedia works, with a more cautious editing style and more acceptance of community opinions. BugGhost 🦗👻 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not being malicious, there was only one motivation for my actions - wanting to help.
- My comments on this and the above thread have been ill judged.
- As for the ban, I'd like to ask that I be spared at this moment in time in view of my above comments and the concession statement that I will be posting when I return home. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... GiantSnowman 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because I'm posting from my phone and I'm not at home. When I return to my PC later today I'll make the statement. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... GiantSnowman 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Support CBAN.Using a chatbot to generate discussion then denying it when called out is already deeply contemptuous. Turning around and filing a chatbot generated revenge report for people not believing your lies about not using a chatbot? Words fail. Folly Mox (talk) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) edited 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC); see below.- FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. GiantSnowman 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. GiantSnowman 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. GiantSnowman 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I admit that I did, I just saw the line of "I didn't use ChatGPT" as an easy 'get out of jail card'. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. GiantSnowman 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. GiantSnowman 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- While that might be technically accurate when you answered that you did not use Chat-GPT, you were intentionally being deceptive in your answers multiple times. It might be slightly different if you were asked specifically about Chat-GPT, however multiple times you were specifically asked about the broad term of LLM. Your current claim of,
never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT
, falls on deaf ears because it is clear that you were dodging the questions, and indeed intentionally addressed only Chat-GPT for the purpose of deception instead of honesty. TiggerJay (talk) 17:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- Soft-struck prior comment because now I see you have admitted to such activity prior to my comment above. TiggerJay (talk) 05:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. GiantSnowman 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Note: for Folly Mox, just to inform you there is a #MENTOR proposal that you may not have seen. I was about to send generic pings to !voters of this section, but it appears all other editors are aware of this proposal already (or voted afterwards at least). This isn't intended to influence your decision, only to provide you updated information. CNC (talk) 23:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (responding to ping) Withdrawing support for CBAN in light of candid owning up to misbehaviour combined with acceptance of mentorship by CommunityNotesContributor (thanks for the ping: I've been offwiki).@Footballnerd2007: I'm sure the point has got across, but please respect your colleagues here. Using an LLM (of any brand) in discussions is disrespectful of our time; assuming we won't notice is disrespectful of our competence. Please engage with the spirit of other people's communications, rather than with the precise words chosen. Misplaced Pages is very much unlike a courtroom: we're here to work together on a shared project, not to win arguments against each other. I look forward to your earnest acculturation. Folly Mox (talk) 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support, obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. GiantSnowman 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Support as this behavior is clearly WP:NOTHERE.Simonm223 (talk) 15:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)- Support CBAN as this editor has caused a monumental waste of the volunteer time of other editors, which is our most precious commodity. This is an encyclopedia, not a robot debating society. Cullen328 (talk) 18:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. First choice would be an indefinite block. Despite the user's sudden acts of contrition, I don't trust them. I don't see them as an asset to the project. As for their recent statement that some think is AI-generated, my guess is it's a mixture, maybe we should call it AI-assisted. However, I wouldn't support an indefinite block if it were just that. What preceded the complaint by GS and their conduct at ANI was egregiously disruptive.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose - I say give them some rope. There is good discussion going on below, and I don't think anything is gained by blocking an editor who does at times add value. We can always revisit this later - and presumably the action would then be quick and obvious. BTW, I thought we all used AI to some extent - certainly when I misspell words like "certainyl" I then accept the AI in chrome changing the spelling. Or even improving the grammar if I turn on those options. Also User:GiantSnowman's numerous draft articles in his userspace always confounds me. I've asked them before to write these articles in draft-space where there can be a collaborative effort, rather than their userspace where they won't let anyone else edit. Nfitz (talk) 00:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Haven't voted in this proposal yet, am abstaining for now per trying to avoid advocacy as potential mentor. The two points I will however question is: would a CBAN solve these issues or postpone them until a later date? Would a 1–2 month mentorship more likely bring about the results of reform or failure much sooner? If we want to talk about WP:WASTEOFTIME as we have do so, it might be worth considering the time wasted in not mentoring a newish editor into the folds of the encyclopedia. CNC (talk) 00:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nfitz - that is a nonsense, editors can and do edit my user drafts whenever they want. My issue was with them moving one into mainspace. GiantSnowman 16:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose: CommunityNotesContributor has offered to mentor him, and the mentoring conditions have been accepted. Let's see what comes of that, and we can always revisit the subject of a ban after CNC reports back. Ravenswing 04:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Strong oppose - A mentor has been provided. EF 18:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support mentorship offered below by CNC, but I still have significant concerns, which I expressed after FBN's response below. TiggerJay (talk) 18:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose as too soon. An alternative for mentoring was proffered instead. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
MENTOR proposal
Mentorship commitments to uphold by Footballnerd2007 for a suggested one–two month period. Mentor: CommunityNotesContributor.
- Abide by all policies and guidelines and listen to advise given to you by other editors.
- No page moves (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval from mentor.
- No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it.
- No more dishonesty, being evasive, or using AI of any kind in discussions due to laziness.
- Avoid commenting on all admin noticeboards (unless summoned). If there is a problem, seek advise from mentor.
- Avoid reverting other editors (either manually, part or in full), unless obvious vandalism.
This goes a bit beyond original requirements, and the last two are effectively preventative measures to try and avoid problems arising. An editor involved exclusively on footy articles has limited to no need for involvement in admin noticeboards. CNC (talk) 17:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree to those principles and am grateful for the mentorship opportunity! Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. CNC (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. GiantSnowman 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. CNC (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No bad - let me rephrase if that helps. I am not opposed to mentoring in place of the current CBAN proposal. GiantSnowman 18:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. CNC (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. GiantSnowman 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. CNC (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Discussion
- Going to chime in here as someone involved in footy related articles. I've reviewed some of the editors contributions, and despite all the issues raised in this topic that are very problematic, the user has seemingly made good contributions to football related articles. I otherwise don't doubt that the user previously edited with an IP (I'm pretty sure which IP this is based on edit histories, but assuming good faith it's not part of this topic and not relevant either so won't bother referencing). I only state this to deflect from suggestions that this editor could be a sockpuppet, as I strongly don't believe to be the case, instead I suspect about 18 months of low-key editing experience up until now. It's therefore a great shame FN2007 went down this road, even if appears to have now retracted the original complaint. Hopefully they can take on board the requests to avoid controversial edits, especially at other user talkpages and such. I'd like to think this is a case of a user trying to run before they can walk, and if they now pace themselves it could work out in the long-term, but alas the damage has also already been done here it seems. Also as a personal suggestion to the editor, if you're here for football articles, then you should be aiming to stay well away from admin noticeboards as they will rarely ever concern you. Generally there should be relatively low controversy editing football articles, even if most remain contentious topics as BLP. So if football is your editing remit here, you're doing it very badly by ending up at a noticeboard, equally so by opening this topic, even with your good contributions. I am therefore reluctantly offering to act as a WP:MENTOR, if the user can commit to the general policy and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, in the hope of not losing a participant in the under edited area of women's football articles. CNC (talk) 14:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. CNC (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per WP:MENTOR, as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. Reader of Information (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's definitely OK with me. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Mainly just everyone else at this point it seems. CNC (talk) 14:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Should I ping? Reader of Information (talk) 14:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per WP:MENTOR, as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. Reader of Information (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. CNC (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I gladly and humbly accept your mentorship offer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, this would be a WP:LASTCHANCE offer, nothing more than that. Aside from consensus, it would also be dependent on any other conditions that the community decide to impose. CNC (talk) 14:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Completely not related but wanting to chime in.
- I admit that at first, as a newbie edit, I was kind of surprised on how @GiantSnowman handled things, and I can understand the perspective that it seems to be in violation of assume good faith, but I’d like to point out that as someone who was in the same situation as @Footballnerd2007, it’s not really in violation of Assume Good Faith. He just is very organized but tries his best to help others. Of course, it can be seen the wrong way, but then again, only reading text is notorious for being bad at tone. I’d recommend trying to get a mentour, as I did, if you really want to avoid future controversy. I’d recommend FootballNerd to take up CNC’s mentorship offer. Reader of Information (talk) 14:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Furthermore, no one is perfect. Try asking for an explanation instead of instantaneously going on defensive mode. That will always help. Be humble. Reader of Information (talk) 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have taken up the mentorship offer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. GiantSnowman 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, @Reader of Information maybe hold off on pings for now. CNC (talk) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, sounds good. Reader of Information (talk) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per #Response from Footballnerd2007 I think pings are appropriate now. CNC (talk) 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, sounds good. Reader of Information (talk) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, @Reader of Information maybe hold off on pings for now. CNC (talk) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. GiantSnowman 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. CNC (talk) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm now home and will start drafting after lunch. I'll send it you before posting it here. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. CNC (talk) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see a list of conditions but not an explicit proposal for mentoring. Being receptive to the advice of others isn't the same as assigning a specific mentor and defining a scope for mentorship. Can the proposal be clarified, or else renamed? isaacl (talk) 18:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed Involuntary mentorship. CNC (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for your clarifying edit. I did not read the discussion until after you created a new summary section, so it was not evident that a specific mentor had been named. isaacl (talk) 02:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed Involuntary mentorship. CNC (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Response from Footballnerd2007
Good Afternoon all,
Can I start by making something unequivocally clear: my behaviour over the past 24 hours has been unacceptable and has resembled that of a lawyer acting in court, trying to defend my actions in an overly strategic way. This course of action was wrong, and I apologise for it.
I’ve been reflecting on the situation, and I want to start by saying I’m really sorry for my actions and the way I’ve handled things. I know I messed up, and I feel it's important to acknowledge that. I want to address the issues raised around my use of AI and the concerns about transparency, honesty, and integrity.
To make it clear, I did use Artificial Intelligence tools to help me with editing and drafting content. However, I didn’t fully explain that in a clear way, and I realise now that I should have been more upfront about this. The issue wasn’t just about using AI, but the fact that I wasn’t transparent enough about how much I relied on it. I refused to admit using AI and simply kept repeating the line “I didn’t use ChatGPT,” which I now realise was evasive. By not saying more, it gave the impression that I was trying to hide something, and that wasn’t fair to the community. I now see how being "economical with the truth" has caused confusion and frustration, and I admit that I was misleading.
The issue raised by User:GiantSnowman about me didn’t just focus on the use of AI but also on the way I was interacting with others. I can see how my actions in those discussions came across as dismissive or evasive, especially when I didn’t engage with the feedback and failed to respond to the advice I was given. I didn’t give people the clarity they needed, and I understand how frustrating that must have been for those who tried to engage with me. I admit I attempted to “give them the run around.” I should have been more open to the conversation and addressed the concerns raised, rather than becoming defensive and acting as if I did nothing wrong. This is not an attempt to justify it, but I want to admit that the reason I used AI was mainly due to laziness and an attempt to sound more knowledgeable in order to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy.
I also want to address how I behaved today. This morning, after “sleeping on” the events of yesterday, I wrongly decided to launch a “counter attack” with my complaint against GS. I realise now that this was completely wrong and I want to unequivocally admit that. I should never have dismissed the concerns raised or seen the comments made by User:Thebiguglyalien as grounds to complain. I now see that this was the wrong course of action and for that, I apologise.
I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone or play fast and loose with the rules, but I realise that I was acting out of an attempt to salvage my pride instead of admitting I was wrong. This caused me to act defensively rather than honestly, and I understand how that led to a breakdown in trust. I take full responsibility for that. I never meant to cause confusion or frustration, but I can see how I did. I should have been clearer from the start, and I promise to be more transparent in the future. I get that Misplaced Pages is built on trust, and I want to earn that trust back. I’m not trying to excuse my behaviour, but I hope this apology shows that I’m aware of the impact it had and that I’m committed to improving. I pledge that I won’t use AI for WP editing in the future. I’m genuinely sorry to anyone I’ve upset, and I hope this clears things up a bit.
Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 16:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for this. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're welcome, I'd really like to put this situation behind us and move on. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, if that was written without AI tools (GPTzero still says it was 100% written by AI, but it looks a lot more "human" to me than your previous efforts) then you can at least write without them. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, @Phil Bridger, I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... Nfitz (talk) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not surprised. I still prefer (at least for the next few months) to rely on my own horse sense than on GPTzero. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Same. I don't find GPTzero and pals particularly useful benchmarks. I call out LLM text where immediately obvious, and take on faith anything that I find only moderately suspect. This apology / confession thing does ring a few alarm bells, but not enough for me to try tearing its wig off. Hopefully we'll gain a constructive contributor after all this. Folly Mox (talk) 12:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not surprised. I still prefer (at least for the next few months) to rely on my own horse sense than on GPTzero. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nfitz, please quote or diff one such "writing" so I can try it myself. (And ping me, please.) EEng 10:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was a bit short, EEng, but this. Nfitz (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well there's something very puzzling going on here. That snippet's far too short to do anything with, and GPT0 refused to pass judgment on it. So I tried something longer of Phil B.'s (
I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor.
) and it came back "99% human". EEng 18:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- Well, I suppose it's better to be 99% human than 0%. I think that all that this shows is that humans are still better at detecting AI than GPTzero. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well there's something very puzzling going on here. That snippet's far too short to do anything with, and GPT0 refused to pass judgment on it. So I tried something longer of Phil B.'s (
- It was a bit short, EEng, but this. Nfitz (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, @Phil Bridger, I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... Nfitz (talk) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- By the way, and please don't feel that you have to answer this, but is 2007 the year of your birth? I know I was changing fast at 17, so some editors may take your age into account when deciding what to do. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from Autism Spectrum Disorder. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well geez now I'm curious what "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering. Folly Mox (talk) 13:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- That comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well geez now I'm curious what "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering. Folly Mox (talk) 13:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from Autism Spectrum Disorder. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate the maturity in acknowledging your errors. I’d like to clarify this as it’s something I avoided mentioning.
- The use of AI is not prohibited but heavily frowned upon. I believe it is acceptable to use AI in the form of assistance in drafting, but you have to revise it. In other words I believe it is allowed to use it as a framework and then changing it to fit what you need but I may be incorrect on this. Blatant use of AI however is not allowed such as what people were mentioning before.
- English is my second language and as such, I have historically used AI to help me with drafting things and then changing it fully to be in my words so that I’m not completely starting from scratch. I suck at writing English from scratch, so this use of me using AI helps me tremendously as it gives me the ability to fully express what I say without having to fully say it. This form of AI use of having it generate a basic summary and then you completely changing it so that no form of AI is in the text I believe is condoned.
- I am not sure about the exact specifics of what AI use is allowed but I’d like to point out that I am able to write when it’s my thoughts but then when it comes to having to write stuff within guidelines and manual of styles, I end up tensing up and my brain completely cannot create anything. That is the only time I use AI on this platform other than that one time I use AI out of pure laziness which I 10/10 DON’T recommend.
- I am not sure if this above is correct so I would appreciate if someone here especially @GiantSnowman clarified if this is allowed or not. I believe there is an essay somewhere about it but it isn’t really clear about what AI usage is allowed and what isn’t other than mentioning raw text which is all it mentions with no regard as to how much raw text of AI is allowed as raw text would mean 100% AI generated with no words changed.
- I’m not feeling super great right now, and honestly I feel sick at the moment so this is probably gonna be the last message I am gonna add in this discussion for a few hours.
- Cheers,
- Reader of Information (talk) 19:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are looking for WP:LLM. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. GiantSnowman 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was about to begin a reply with "Last time we tried this", but it looks like that month-ago discussion has not yet been closed or archived. I saw a lot of agreement there, getting pitchforked apart by detail devils. A well read closure should help move us forward with the wordsmithing. Folly Mox (talk) 12:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are looking for WP:LLM. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. GiantSnowman 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Courtesy pings to increase discussion as the following pings all commented in the sections prior.
- @Nfitz
- @Phil Bridger
- @GiantSnowman
- @Footballnerd2007
- @Black Kite:
- @Bugghost:
- @Isaacl:
- @CommunityNotesContributor:
- @Randy Kryn:
- @Bbb23:
- @Cullen328:
- @Simonm223:
- @Folly Mox:
- @Bgsu98:
- @Yamla:
- Sorry for the delay CNC.
- Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please don't send mass ping notifications to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. isaacl (talk) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seconding Isaacl - these pings were unecessary. Editors who wanted to follow this discussion would have subscribed. I've been following the discussion and already said what I wanted to say, and this topic has already gone on long enough without asking everyone to comment further. BugGhost 🦗👻 07:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- My personal opinion is that LLM content is not able to be brought into compliance with Misplaced Pages copyright restrictions and is highly disrespectful of others in article talk. As such I don't believe there is any place for LLMs and other chatbots in Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 12:12, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Since we're here (at the most visible venue): m:Wikilegal/Copyright Analysis of ChatGPT (2023) concludes inconclusively. Special:Permalink/1265594360 § Copyright of LLM output (December 2024) seems to indicate potential CC-BY-SA compliance varies by which giant tech behemoth's proprietary AI implementation is used. Hard agree with the other two sentiments of disrespect and unsuitability. Folly Mox (talk) 12:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's interesting. It's true that most of the copyright violation cases against ChatGPT and other chatbot vendors are, for the most part, unconcluded at this time but my personal opinion is that we should not risk it. Simonm223 (talk) 12:42, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Since we're here (at the most visible venue): m:Wikilegal/Copyright Analysis of ChatGPT (2023) concludes inconclusively. Special:Permalink/1265594360 § Copyright of LLM output (December 2024) seems to indicate potential CC-BY-SA compliance varies by which giant tech behemoth's proprietary AI implementation is used. Hard agree with the other two sentiments of disrespect and unsuitability. Folly Mox (talk) 12:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- My personal opinion is that LLM content is not able to be brought into compliance with Misplaced Pages copyright restrictions and is highly disrespectful of others in article talk. As such I don't believe there is any place for LLMs and other chatbots in Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 12:12, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seconding Isaacl - these pings were unecessary. Editors who wanted to follow this discussion would have subscribed. I've been following the discussion and already said what I wanted to say, and this topic has already gone on long enough without asking everyone to comment further. BugGhost 🦗👻 07:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please don't send mass ping notifications to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. isaacl (talk) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, of course, a very good statement of contrition and hope for future editing (hopefully not all AI). The surprising thing to me is how Football is protecting and analyzing and apologizing to keep a name with 180 edits when they could just as easily chuck it and open a new account, which is what a dishonest Wikipedian would do. Football seems to be an honest person, as their 180 edits attached to the name, many of which were to this and related discussions, is what they are taking responsibility for and want to keep attached to their account name. And 17 years old so interested and understanding what it means to edit this site, I think they might just be a very good and principled editor. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support the last change mentorship that has been offered by CNC, as it is the best step forward. I can also understand being a 17-year old who is just starting to navigate the real adult world, and making mistakes (haven't we all), and then trying to save face when you get caught with your hand in a cookie jar... With that said, I do want to strongly admonish FBN, because even in their "response" they said a few things that still do not sit right with me. For example
I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone
however, Folly Mox asked about their prior statement of "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering and their age, they said simplyThat comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies.
. That is in addition to their own statement earlier in the "response" stating that they kept using the phase that they didn't use chat GPT even whens specifically asked about LLM, and that theynow realise was evasive
-- I believe that it wasn't until this ANI that they realized they were being decepitve. I also take great pause at the statement ofto justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy
. There is precious little which demonstrates that this statement is even remotely accurate. Even in raising this ANI, very few of the instructions were followed. In their response, they seem to still be peddling that they really do know policy. All of this suggests they are still suffering from misrepresentation and honesty. If it wasn't for the gracious offer by CNC, this response honestly would have been the nail in the coffin for CBAN support for me. TiggerJay (talk) 18:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
MAB Teahouse talk
I didn't want to, but I one-hour protected the talk page of the Teahouse due to MAB going there. The Teahouse itself is already protected. Obviously they're going there precisely to make things as difficult on us as possible, but I don't know what else to do. 331dot (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Would it be possible to create a link (or button) that creates a new section on one's own talk page with {{Help me}} preloaded? We could then add this to the page's editnotice. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 09:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I protected Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK, I've fixed that. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I protected Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Looks like today they're hitting every help page they can find. 331dot (talk) 09:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- In relation to "MAB" issues, is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of when the notoriously difficult Queen Mab speech was pretty much hit out of park in 1997's Romeo + Juliet? Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 12:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's just you. Liz 06:21, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- In relation to "MAB" issues, is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of when the notoriously difficult Queen Mab speech was pretty much hit out of park in 1997's Romeo + Juliet? Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 12:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Kosem Sultan - warring edit
Hello, I am terribly sorry if I write this in wrong place, but I really don't know what place would be best to report this.
I was editing page of Kösem Sultan and I noticed this user: 109.228.104.136 changed phrase in infobox "spouse: Ahmed I" into "consort of: Ahmed I", claiming 'they were never married'. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=K%C3%B6sem_Sultan&oldid=1263148667
Because of this, I added information they were married and sourced this with book. However, this person keep revert to their preffered version of infobox. I asked them on Talk page about providing source. When I pointed that their source not disputes or even misinnterprets mine, they deleted my talk. They did this twice and even claimed I 'vandalized' Kosem's page.
As inexperienced user I was few times into edit warring, as I did not know how exactly rules are there.I try to be careful now to not make disruptions and while there is instruction to undo undsourced informations, I am not sure if I am allowed to undo their - unsourced - edition, as I already did this few times. I would not label changing 'spouse' for 'consort of' as vandalism per say, but I want to protect my edition and I wish this person provided source so we could each consensus. You can see our - now deleted by them - discussion here: 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267744138#Kosem_Sultan_was_wife_of_Ahmed_I. 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267749540#Kosem_was_wife_of_Ahmed (I do not know if I linked this correctly, but both shound be find in history of talk page of user with today date)
I hope it can be seen I was willing to discuss things and I even proposed to merge ours versions, if only this person provide scholar source - which they didn't, as Tik Tok video they linked contardicts statement from my book (see details in discussions). I also want to add that blocked user called Cecac https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:K%C3%B6sem_Sultan#Marriage used exactly the same argument, as historian in Tik Tok provided by 109.228.104.136. I do not know if 109.228.104.136 and Cecac are the same person, but I think it should be checked. Finally, I do not know how much video made on Tik Tok should be considered as reliable source, so I am not sure how to act in this situation.
Again I apologize if I leave this message in wrong board - there were multiple issues so I decided to list them all. Please notify me if I am allowed edit Kosem's page and brought back informations, as I really want avoid going back-and-forth and do not want to be blocked myself. --Sobek2000 (talk) 14:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I want to add that I informed user 109.228.104.136 about this reprt, however they delete this from their Talk page. Sobek2000 (talk) 23:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Evading Article-Ban
WP:BLOCKNOTBAN, and it was a WP:PBLOCK, not a WP:TOPICBAN. Closing this. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Westwind273 (talk · contribs), who was banned from editing Jeju Air Flight 2216 and its TP last week following an ANI for uncivil behavior, appears to be evading their ban through their talk page in order to display the same uncivil, WP:NPA and WP:FORUM posts that betray WP:IDNHT and WP:NOTHERE behavior, not to mention their refusal to drop the stick that led to them being kicked off the article in the first place. See and . Borgenland (talk) 16:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- You must be kidding. How am I evading the ban? No one who is editing the Jeju article is bothering to read my talk page. Why would they? Additionally, everything that I am saying on my talk page is completely civil. I am not making personal attacks on anyone in any way. I think you need to drop the stick on this. Westwind273 (talk) 17:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Westwind273 does not appear to have been banned? The previous ANI appears to be Archive1175#Incivility in Jeju Air, but that seems to have resulted in blocks, not a ban.
- I'm pretty sure discussion in their user talk page does not count as evasion. – 2804:F1...42:FDB7 (::/32) (talk) 17:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- A pageblock is not the same thing as a topic ban, Borgenland. I see no problem with their comments on their own talk page. Cullen328 (talk) 18:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with Cullen328, as the one whose comment the user in question is responding to. For what it's worth, I do not foresee this editor being constructive elsewhere but have no issue as long as they don't escalate to personal attacks and keep to their talk page.--Jasper Deng (talk) 19:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- A pageblock is not the same thing as a topic ban, Borgenland. I see no problem with their comments on their own talk page. Cullen328 (talk) 18:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
NOt here account
Blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
203.30.15.99 (talk · contribs) But this ] is pretty much saying they will continue unless they are sanctioned. Slatersteven (talk) 16:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not an account; already blocked for a month by Bbb23. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Transphobia in my talk page by 136.57.92.245
IP blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
136.57.92.245 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has posted the following - User talk:Lavi edits stuff#c-136.57.92.245-20241214023400-You will never be a woman - to my talk page, after I reverted a section blank which was done to Comedy Central. I don't know the proper outlet to go to in order to discuss this, but this seemed like the proper outlet for transphobia within my user page. Lavi edits stuff (talk) 17:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- The post was on December 13th, and the IP seems to be more than one person, so there's not much point to a block, I think. You can certainly remove the posting. 331dot (talk) 17:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know we don't block IP addresses indefinitely, but this one seems to be used by only one person (or if by more than one they have remarkably similar interests), so a short preventative block is possible if they make any more such comments. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- 136.57.92.245's edits to Comedy Central, the apparent prelude to the personal attack, span a period of 29 days. – 2804:F1...42:FDB7 (::/32) (talk) 17:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know we don't block IP addresses indefinitely, but this one seems to be used by only one person (or if by more than one they have remarkably similar interests), so a short preventative block is possible if they make any more such comments. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- (Not an admin) I've left them a level 4 warning for the personal attack. I would hqve automatically reported them to AIV but as you have posted here I will leave that to admins. Knitsey (talk) 17:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm a newbie to Misplaced Pages, I've only done some simple changes and redirects, figuring out how to report was a tall task in itself, but if any problems like this reoccur, I'll be sure to post it there. Thank you. Lavi edits stuff (talk) 17:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've placed a three-month {{anonblock}}. They don't need a warning and they don't seem to be multiple people. They can request an unblock if they're willing to talk about their hate. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
IP User 103.109.59.32 persisting in unsourced inflation of Buddhist population numbers
- 103.109.59.32 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
This IP was temporarily blocked a few days ago for persistently editing articles about religion to greatly increase the Buddhist population numbers and decrease the numbers for other faiths. Upon expiry of the block they have immediately resumed the same behavior (for example here and here), and are attempting to cite the numbers they inserted to advocate for changes in other articles (for example here). Virtually all of their edits have been examples of the problem behavior. -- LWG 18:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I certainly understand concerns that American demographic sources are making systematic mistakes regarding the population of China the IP is not going about this in anything remotely resembling an appropriate method. Simonm223 (talk) 18:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
User:CNMall41 is Removing reliable sources and contents
I blocked OP as a sock at SPI.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- CNMall41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:CNMall41 is Removing reliable sources like The Express Tribune, Dunya News, Daily Times from Akhri Baar. He also removed the list from Express Entertainment. Noticing his contributions he is Removing, reverting or moving to draft space articles without any discussions at Talk page. I also noticed that he always through the new Misplaced Pages users in Sock puppet investigations. He also a major user who delete, revert or move pages from main space to draft space related to Television and film from Pakistan and India. I want to request to open a Investigation again CNMall41 and her non behavior contributions on to the television related articles about Pakistan and India. He also harasses user to keep away from her talk page. Please take a look on that. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Opnicarter (talk • contribs) 18:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I removed the unreliable sourcing which is non-bylined, YouTube, etc. SPI also filed here. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Opnicarter, you have been an editor for 5 days now unless you are a returning editor evading a block. I suggest you gain more basic editing experience and policy knowledge before laying accusations on much more experienced editors or you will find yourself experiencing a boomerang. You also don't know much about how Misplaced Pages works if you think you can request that an "investigation" can be "opened" and you didn't even offer any diffs to support your claims so this is going nowhere. Liz 18:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a content dispute that should be handled on the talk page and if not resolved there, taken to DR. (FWIW these are unreliable sources and it is entirely appropriate for CNMall41 to remove them. This should be promptly closed with a WP:TROUT to the filer. Dclemens1971 (talk) 18:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Dclemens1971: Given the precociousness of the complaining "new" editor, I think a WP:BOOMERANG would be better than a WP:TROUT in this case. BD2412 T 19:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Correct, I typed that before I saw there was an SPI opened. Dclemens1971 (talk) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looking at the WP:SPI history, Sunuraju may need a closer look outside of the CU results. To my eye, the evidence shows a pretty close connection. BD2412 T 19:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, specifically this and this. Glad you saw that without me pointing it out. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looking at the WP:SPI history, Sunuraju may need a closer look outside of the CU results. To my eye, the evidence shows a pretty close connection. BD2412 T 19:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have not filed at ANI yet, but if you look at the most recent filings in the linked SPI case, there are other users involved that were not caught up in the CU which are still likely SOCKS and UPE. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Correct, I typed that before I saw there was an SPI opened. Dclemens1971 (talk) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Dclemens1971: Given the precociousness of the complaining "new" editor, I think a WP:BOOMERANG would be better than a WP:TROUT in this case. BD2412 T 19:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per recent claims, I have opted not to close this as I was originally going to do as this comment. This recent new information clearly warrants this discussion. Reader of Information (talk) 19:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
IP persistently removing sourced content.
133.209.194.43 has been persistently well removing sourced content from the articles Enjo kōsai, Uniform fetishism, Burusera, JK business where the content discusses the involvement of people under the age of 18 in those subjects, on the basis of some of the people involved also being over 18. Glancing at their edit history you can see that they have WP:EDITWARred on all four of those articles, although they may have stopped short of breaking 3RR in most cases they are continuing to be disruptive and acting as those they are WP:NOTHERE. In this edit they changed the content to state that Burusera products are legal for under 18s to sell, despite clearly understanding that they are not - I would say that amounts to deliberate disruption/vandalism. ---- D'n'B-📞 -- 19:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Courtesy ping, @Cassiopeia and KylieTastic also have tried to warn this IP user. -- D'n'B-📞 -- 19:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- While they don't leave edit summaries except for the section headings, it looks like some of their edits were removing inappropriate content from these articles. Can you provide diffs of edits that you find problematic? Generally, when making an argument that an editor is being disruptive, the OP provides diffs that support that accusation and I don't find the one edit you link to serious enough to issue a sanction. I mean, we are already talking about articles that border the line on pornography. Liz 04:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's the ignoring warnings and lack of discussion that's the issue, so pointing to individual diffs doesn't show the whole picture. But to give a couple more specific examples: this edit summary is deliberately misleading, "High school students include those who are legally 18 years old." is obviously a true statement but doesn't relate to the content being removed - which is about Australia's laws on the matter do apply to adults. pretty much the same thing here. I can't see any instance where they removed removed inappropriate content - rather they seem focussed on removing content that mentions any laws. -- D'n'B-📞 -- 06:38, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- While they don't leave edit summaries except for the section headings, it looks like some of their edits were removing inappropriate content from these articles. Can you provide diffs of edits that you find problematic? Generally, when making an argument that an editor is being disruptive, the OP provides diffs that support that accusation and I don't find the one edit you link to serious enough to issue a sanction. I mean, we are already talking about articles that border the line on pornography. Liz 04:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
92.22.27.64 is edit-warring and abusing editors at Racism in the United Kingdom and on talk
Blocked The Bushranger One ping only 21:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 92.22.27.64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Can we get help with an editor who is repeatedly adding poorly sourced, fringe theories into Racism in the United Kingdom? They have been warned several times (here, here, here and here). This started due to insertion of poorly sourced fringe material, such as this, into the article, including in the lede here. Then there was some edit warring here, here and here. Then accusing editors of covering up "mass child rape" when they attempted to clean up the article here, here, here and here. The editor doesn't want to engage and keeps reinserting dubious text, including implications about BLPs. Lewisguile (talk) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also note the causal transphobia as well definitely neads a block. Lavalizard101 (talk) 20:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looks like the IP has been blocked for a week. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit warring on US politicians around the Gaza genocide
The Lord of Misrule is blocked for edit warring and there is no merit to their retaliatory report. If disruption returns when the block expires, escalating sanctions can be considered. Star Mississippi 04:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- The Lord of Misrule (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I'm getting caught up into an edit war with The Lord of Misrule (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) regarding the so-called "Gaza genocide" on Nancy Mace, Antony Blinken, and Linda Thomas-Greenfield. Rather than continue, I am extricating myself and bringing their conduct here. From my attempts on their talk page, including the Arab-Israel, BLP, and American politics (post 1992) contentious topic warnings, are going unheeded. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Any so-called "commentary" has been removed, ie "complicity" and now just facts related to the subject and topic remain, yet here we are. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 20:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will note, per the International Criminal Court, any material support for War Crimes, like funding or vetos allowing war crimes to continue in the UN Security Council, are themselves War Crimes https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Elements-of-Crimes.pdf Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless you can find a RS to back that up, that would be OR. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I just reverted TLoM's most recent edit,
has vetoed 5 ceasefire agreements.
when the source saysvetoed five resolutions, including three calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, one Russian oral amendment, and a proposal for full Palestinian membership in the U.N.
The three ceasefire vetoes are already documented in the article. Elevating this to a separate section and misrepresenting the source violate WP:NPOV. I question whether TLoM should be editing BLPs. Schazjmd (talk) 21:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- I find this editors removal of information vs an easy correction of the word "agreement" to "resolution" troubling at best and biased at worst. This section is ripe for expansion as more scholarly works will be forthcoming. It seems the editor would rather delete this information rather than correct and provide more information. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- If
more scholarly works will be forthcoming
, then the sections can be expanded when those works forthcome. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- If
- I find this editors removal of information vs an easy correction of the word "agreement" to "resolution" troubling at best and biased at worst. This section is ripe for expansion as more scholarly works will be forthcoming. It seems the editor would rather delete this information rather than correct and provide more information. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Muboshgu, they were provided with a CTOP notice for ARBPIA by @ScottishFinnishRadish on the 17/02/2024. Should this perhaps be best addressed at WP:AE? TarnishedPath 21:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- No need. Blocked for two weeks for edit warring on three pages in violation of WP:BLPRESTORE. If it continues after the block, please simply let me know on my talk page (or re-report here and feel free to notify me). ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Will do. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given the thread below I think we should discuss a topic-ban here and now, rather than going thru AE. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 21:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Perhaps. I was going to initially bring this to 3RRNB but decided to bring it here. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- No need. Blocked for two weeks for edit warring on three pages in violation of WP:BLPRESTORE. If it continues after the block, please simply let me know on my talk page (or re-report here and feel free to notify me). ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Removal of legitimately sourced information concerning ongoing Genocide in Gaza
Retaliatory. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Bbb23 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has removed legitimately sourced information regarding the subject's involvement with the Gaza Genocide. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- What subject? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger, see the directly above discussion. TarnishedPath 21:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Tendentious editor
Single purpose account NicolasTn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is reverting again . They want to expand the lead which is disputed. They have been warned not to edit war. They claim to "restore deletion" most of which introduced by them to the lead, but in the process removing other sourced information and adding back errors. They know where to discuss edits but avoid doing so as much as they can, so I don't think enough discussion exists to initiate dispute resolution. Previous ANI. Vacosea (talk) 23:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- It looks like this article page history has been an edit war between the two of you. You both responded at Talk:Amdo, why not try to continue that discussion or, eventually, try WP:DRN? Neither of you have had made much use of the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. Liz 02:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll just note that this editor, who has only made 51 edits, hasn't edited in 3 days so they may not respond here immediately. Liz 02:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- They would probably respond only after being reverted again by me or the other editor. Since their one and only response, they've left the discussion hanging again while actively editing the article. Vacosea (talk) 20:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Adillia
Aidillia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I've been avoiding that user ever since we were blocked for edit warring on File:Love Scout poster.png but they keep going at every edits I made, specifically the recent ones on the files I uploaded like File:The Queen Who Crowns poster.png and File:The Trauma Code Heroes on Call poster.png, where the file are uploaded in WP:GOODFAITH and abided WP:IMAGERES but they keep messing up. I'm still at lost and not sure what's their problem with my edits. Additional: I will also hold accountability if I did bad faith.
Note: Aidillia "accidentally" archived this discussion. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 02:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've many proof that shows you're the one who start the problem. Aidillia 03:02, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- File:The Queen Who Crowns poster.png you revert my correct upload which makes me so offended. Aidillia 03:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- File:The Trauma Code Heroes on Call poster.png i upload as per their official social media. But rather used a poster version, and in the end i revert it. Same like what u did to me on File:Love Your Enemy poster.png. I don't know what is this user problem, first upload the incorrect poster than re-upload again with the correct poster which i already uploaded, then need a bot to resize it. (So unnecessary) Aidillia 03:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I reverted that because it was too early to say that the poster is indeed the main one at that time when it was labeled as a character poster by Korean reliable sources. You know that we rely more on independent secondary reliable sources rather on official website or social media accounts as they are primary sources, so I don't know why you were offended by a revert. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 04:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why you don't say this on the summary? or u can just simply discuss it on my talk page. Aidillia 04:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is a volunteer service and WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. I have other WP:OBLIGATION in real life. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 08:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you're that busy, please stop reverting my edits/uploads without any clear explanation. Just like what you did on File:Love Scout poster.png. You will just engaged in WP:EDITWAR. I've also seen you revert on File:Light Shop poster.png; someone reverted it to the correct one (which I uploaded), but you still revert to your preferred version without leaving an edit summary. Aidillia 08:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is a volunteer service and WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. I have other WP:OBLIGATION in real life. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 08:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why you don't say this on the summary? or u can just simply discuss it on my talk page. Aidillia 04:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- File:The Queen Who Crowns poster.png you revert my correct upload which makes me so offended. Aidillia 03:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have partially blocked both of you from editing filespace for 72 hours for edit warring. I think an IBAN might be needed here. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support an indefinite two-way interaction ban between D.18th and Aidillia. They've also been edit warring at Close Your Eyes (group). Also look at the move log there, which is ridiculous. These people need to stop fighting with each other. * Pppery * it has begun... 06:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
User:D.18th
Withdrawn. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
D.18th (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user keeps coming to wherever i made an edit. And this user also ignore WP:GOODFAITH. Aidillia 03:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:This user is the most number one who often comes in on my talk page first. But when I came to their talk page, i got restored or, worse, got reverted as vandalism. Aidillia 03:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aidilla: You have failed to notify D.18th (talk · contribs) of this discussion, as the red notice at the top of the page clearly requires. I know they already reported you above, but they may not be aware of your one in return. You will need to show clear diffs supporting the allegations that you've made; expecting us to act on this report with no such evidence is likely going to result in this not ending well for you. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 04:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Aidillia, you can't remove a post from ANI once it has been responded to by another editor. If you want to rescind your complaint then strike it by using code, <s>Comment</s> which will show up as
Comment. Liz 05:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Done, thanks! Aidillia 05:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Aidillia, you can't remove a post from ANI once it has been responded to by another editor. If you want to rescind your complaint then strike it by using code, <s>Comment</s> which will show up as
User:Azar Altman and User:Farruh Samadov
All of the named parties have been indefinitely blocked with checkuser blocks. Liz 20:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Azar Altman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Farruh Samadov (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Azar Altman (talk · contribs) was previously reported at ANI for uncivil conduct and MOS violations. Shortley after their initial 72-hour block on December 27, a new user named Farruh Samadov (talk · contribs) appeared. One of their edits at Uzbekistan is an emblem before the name of Tashkent, the capital of Uzbekistan, in violation of MOS:FLAG. They did this three more times (, , ). And then Azar Altman reverted again twice (, ), leading me to suspect that Farruh Samadov is a sock puppet. Both users edit in the Uzbekistan topic area and both user talk pages have warnings for MoS violations, but Samadov has never used uncivil language, as Altman did on their user talk and in their second edit I linked. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I opened a sockpuppet investigation a couple hours ago. It is indeed highly suspicious that Farruh Samadov was created only a few hours after this block was imposed. Mellk (talk) 04:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Pinging @Drmies who was involved in the prior ANI and performed the block. TiggerJay (talk) 04:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Suggest these accounts to be blocked as soon as possible if sockpupperty is confirmed. Galaxybeing (talk) 05:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Galaxybeing, yes, that's how that goes. Drmies (talk) 13:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regardless of SOCK, suggest that Azar receive another block of at least a week for continued disruption shortly after the block was lifted. They were reverted twice (as noted above) for the same edit by two different editors (Laundry and Melik). Their most recent edit summary was
Stop discriminating by violating Misplaced Pages rules.
when MOS was specifically mentioned in the prior edit summary and they are abundantly notified about edit warring and not reverting-reverts. TiggerJay (talk) 05:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Suggest these accounts to be blocked as soon as possible if sockpupperty is confirmed. Galaxybeing (talk) 05:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Pinging @Drmies who was involved in the prior ANI and performed the block. TiggerJay (talk) 04:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry in Philippine articles
Request an immediate and extended range block for 49.145.5.109 (talk · contribs), a certified sock of LTA Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Yaysmay15 from editing 2025 in the Philippines and other related pages pending a result of a protection request, the second to have been filed for that page after the first instance of sockpuppetry by the same account was deemed not serious enough. See also Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Yaysmay15. Borgenland (talk) 07:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems like this should be reported at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Yaysmay15, not at ANI. That's where the checkusers are at although they are generally reluctant to connect an IP account with a blocked sockpuppet. Liz 04:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is already confirmed in the SPI. However, as it is an IP account that can't be indeffed, I'd had to check my calendar too often to see when their existing block expires. 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Borgenland (talk) 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
SeanM1997
Blocked. - The Bushranger One ping onlyThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User seems to think that sourcing is only clutter and keeps removing source requests and sometimes even sources. This despite WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT and WP:V. Warnings and request completely fall on deaf ears. This is damaging the encyclopedia. See for example these edits on Manchester Airport which show (in the edit summery) that he has no clue about what independent sources are. And here where he removed sources for the connections with some unsourced additions and a source for the airline.
Combined with stories about being a professional in this field, giving him a WP:COI, I think something has to be done. The Banner talk 12:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Reading SeanM1997's talk page is a depressing saga. I have indefinitely blocked the editor for persistent addition of unsourced and poorly sourced content for years, despite being warned repeatedly. The editor can be unblocked if they promise to provide references to reliable sources 100% of the time. Cullen328 (talk) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- It should be noted that SeanM1997 has in the past posted a tweet to support something, then used a news story referencing his tweet as a source to insert into an article. Despite many years and many many conversations, they don't/won't understand the concept of independent reliable sources. Canterbury Tail talk 17:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Deegeejay333 and Eurabia
Much of the activity of the infrequently active user Deegeejay333 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to be attempts to whitewash anything to do with the Eurabia conspiracy theory, attempting to present it as "fact", despite the fact that scholarly sources have consistently defined it as a conspiracy theory (see , ). I think this makes them WP:NOTHERE. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notifed their talkpage . Despite their long periods of inactivity, their most recent activity is today . Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The rest of their edits on unrelated topics seem unobjectionable. I think page blocks would get the job done in preventing further disruption (I can't get around to doing that right now, but that's my two cents). voorts (talk/contributions) 17:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Really? You see nothing wrong with these edits? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah. It does kind of look like this editor is WP:NOTHERE except to do battle with the terrible forces of Misplaced Pages leftism. Simonm223 (talk) 17:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I did a quick look; I didn't look at all of their edits. I agree that edit is also problematic. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- White-washing Bat Yeor was also the very first edit they made at Misplaced Pages as well as their most recent. This is an ongoing issue. see here. Simonm223 (talk) 18:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Really? You see nothing wrong with these edits? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Wigglebuy579579
- Wigglebuy579579 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) keeps engaging in disruptive editing behaviour:
- they created dozens of articles by copy-pasting AI-generated text;
- they ignored all warnings onto their talk page;
- they duplicated draftified articles by simply recreating them.
Miminity and I have been cleaning the mess for hours, warned him several times, but he just ignores everything and starts again. – Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 17:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would support indefinitely blocking this user. Their output is entirely low quality AI-generated slop, and they are contributing nothing of value to the encyclopedia while placing considerable burden on others. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Est. 2021, can you provide some examples so we don't have to search through their contributions? Thank you. Liz 19:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some pertinent examples Draft:Toda_Religion/2 (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and Draft:Indigenous religions of India (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: Examples include:
- among others. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: This editor left a message on my talkpage and again it is clearly written by AI. Here's the link Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 00:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some pertinent examples Draft:Toda_Religion/2 (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and Draft:Indigenous religions of India (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are any of the references in Draft:Pfütsana Religion/2 real or are they all hallucinations? I'm having trouble finding them on web searches. They're also suspiciously old even though there is more recent relevant literature. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The Misplaced Pages:Large language models essay recommends G3 for articles for which text-source integrity is completely lacking. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rsjaffe: Using BookFinder.com, Citation #1, #3 (might be a dupref of 1) does exist but has different author, Citation #2 does exist and is correct. #4 is dupref of #2. A quoted google search and a google scholar search about #5, 8, 9, 11 (The journals does not seem to even exist) yields no result. No result for 6, 7, 9, 10 (Nagaland State Press does not seems to even exist) 12 Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 02:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would like to hear from @Wigglebuy579579, but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Click all the link on the Draft:Toda Religion/2, all of them are {{failed verification}}. Either the page does not exist or the website itself does not exist. The JSTOR sources leads to a completely unrelated article. I think by the looks of it, this draft is safe to delete
- @Wigglebuy579579: care to explain? Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 03:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would like to hear from @Wigglebuy579579, but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rsjaffe: more ref-checking at Draft:Pfütsana: as Miminity observes, The Angami Nagas: With Some Notes on Neighbouring Tribes exists (although with the BrE spelling of the title) and I accessed it at archive.org. It does not mention pfütsana anywhere in its 570 pages. The closest we get is pfuchatsuma, which is a clan mentioned in a list of sub-clans of the Anagmi. The draft says
The term Pfütsana is derived from the Angami language, where "Pfü" translates to "life" or "spirit,"
which is contrary to what The Angami Nagas says – pfü is a suffix functioning sort of similarly to a pronoun (and I think I know how the LLM hallucinated the meaning "spirit" but this is getting too long already). I looked at a couple of the sources for Draft:Indigenous religions of India as well, and I haven't been able to find a single instance where the source verifies the claims in the draft. --bonadea contributions talk 16:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- Thanks for checking. Those are now deleted. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Est. 2021 and Miminity, thanks for supplying examples that can be reviewed. Liz 04:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have deleted Draft:Pfütsana Religion/2 and Draft:Toda Religion/2 as they have falsified references. Checking the others would be appreciated. Also, editor has been warned on their page about inserting unsubstantiated demographic data in articles. User talk:Wigglebuy579579#January 2025. I think we’re running out of WP:ROPE here. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
User:BittersweetParadox - Overlinking
- BittersweetParadox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user is persistently MOS:OVERLINKing throughout most of their edits that aren't dealing with categories or redirects, see for example:
I have also recently warned the user on their talk page regarding this, but they have seemingly chosen to ignore that warning, as they are still continuing with the same behavior:
This is also not the first time the issue has been brought up to the user, as they were previously warned in July 2024, where even after claiming to understand the issue/say they won't do it again, continued the same behavior. With their ignoring of warnings regarding overlinking, it unfortunately appears that an ANI discussion may be the only way to solve this ongoing issue, apart from a block. Magitroopa (talk) 17:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Overlinking still continuing on despite this ANI (for example), and even with an administrator suggesting they not ignore this ANI, continues on with their edits/ignoring this ANI. The user is not appearing to want to WP:COMMUNICATE whatsoever, and some of their communication over issues in the past does not bode well as well ().
- They are adding many uses of Template:Baseball year, despite the usage instructions saying that the template should not be used in prose text. I really am not sure what more there is to do here, as any attempts at communicating with the user does virtually nothing. Magitroopa (talk) 20:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @BittersweetParadox: It's rather insulting to state you'll comment here and then continue to overlink . Please stop editing like this until you can address the above concerns. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 07:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: Apologies for the ping, but could there please be some assistance here?... As BX stated above, despite their only communication thus far since this ANI (being a simple, "ok"), they have still continued overlinking- now overlinking even more since BX's comment above: . I'm really not sure what more there is that can be done here apart from a block, as it appears this is just going to continue on, no matter what anyone says here or on their talk page. Magitroopa (talk) 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Repeated pov pushing
This is a content dispute and ANI is not the venue to resolve those. Hellenic Rebel, you've had multiple editors tell you that you are not correct. Please take the time to understand why. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Hellenic Rebel , despite the disagreements, continues to try to impose his personal opinion, for which he cannot cite any source that justifies him. Clearly original research.
previous reporting of the issue
See also, talk with User:Rambling Rambler 77.49.204.122 (talk) 19:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Replying since I've been tagged. I do think this is a behavioural issue rather than a content one. User has been repeatedly warned on their talk page by several users about edits to the article in question but has belligerently refused to engage in constructive discussion about said edits.
- User was clearly warned about continuing this in the closure message of the last ANI discussion not to resume the edits but the response on the article's talk page was notably dismissive of said warning.
- Quite honestly I think this is a case of WP:IDHT. The user in question has just plead that they have special knowledge we don't and has steadfastly refused to demonstrate in reliable sources the contents of their edits. Despite being informed of how consensus works they have resorted to counting votes and even in that case just dismissing the views of those against him for contrived reasons. Rambling Rambler (talk) 19:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- My friends, anonymous user and @Rambling Rambler, and also dear user and adminis that are going to see the previous POVs. The article had a specific version, which you decided to dispute by causing a correction war, that could easily be seen at the page history. The administrator locked the page in order to reach to a consensus, which obviously couldn't happen, and there was no corresponding participation. Four users in all, the two of us presented our arguments in favor of the original version, Rambling Rambler (and somewhat monotonously and without proper documentation, the anonymous user) presented yours for the version without seats. At the end, you threw in an ad-hominem against me, to top it off. You made a call, no one else did anything, time passed. What makes you believe that the article will remain in your version, while the original was the previous one and there was no consensus?
P.S.: Rambling Rambler, please stop bombing links to wikipedia policies and then trying to interpret them and "fit" them to the issue. This practice resembles clickbait, you are simply trying to show that you are knowledgeable about politics and appear superior, and this is annoying. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- @Rambling Rambler an admin locked the page, and then anybody respond even if we make pings. That means that they just locked the page because there was an edit war, and and no one dealt with the article. The discussion ended weeks ago and also you've made a public call. If somebody wanted, they would have closed the discussion. So I don't think it's a case of IDHT, because the time intervals in which someone could engage (either to participate in the discussion, or an administrator to close it) had exceeded the normal. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 19:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not going to reopen the content aspect of this here. I have made you aware, repeatedly, of our polices when it comes to including claims. You need to provide reliable sources and the burden is on those wanting to include challenged statements to meet consensus to include them. You have now just admitted there is no consensus yet you felt entitled to reintroduce challenged material.
- This is precisely a "I don't have to" issue. Rambling Rambler (talk) 19:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also tagging @Voorts as they probably have a view on this given their previous action. Rambling Rambler (talk) 19:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler I will prove you that you actually interpret policies as you see fit, and you don't pay attention to what they say. WP:IDHT:
Sometimes, editors perpetuate disputes by sticking to a viewpoint long after community consensus has decided that moving on would be more productive. Believing that you have a valid point does not confer the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told otherwise. The community's rejection of your idea is not because they didn't hear you. Stop writing, listen, and consider what the others are telling you. Make an effort to see their side of the debate, and work on finding points of agreement. Do not confuse "hearing" with "agreeing with".
You can see the bold parts. It's obvious from those, that this policy does not refer to cases where four user with two different opinions participated. It refers to cases where one or a minority of users refuses to accept the community's decision because they believe their opinion is superior. In our discussion, my version never rejected from the community, it was rejected only by you and the anonymous user. In this case, either you believe that the majority or the community in general is you and the anonymous user, or you are simply trying to propagate your position. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 20:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- You were linked WP:ONUS during the discussion and clearly acknowledged it.
- So you are aware of it, which bluntly states:
- The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.
- In your previous reply you have admitted that there isn't consensus.
- You have broken policy and are just once again stubbornly refusing to adhere to it. Rambling Rambler (talk) 20:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler There was a long time period in which we did not have any edit in the discussion. The original version was the one with the seats. The admins at that cases, lock the article at a random version (otherwise there should have been a clarification from the admin). So the lack of consensus concerns your own version, not the original one, to which I restored the article. Finally, I need to point out that you have made a series of problematic contributions, such as misguiding users by referring them to Misplaced Pages policies that are not related to the subject as I demonstrated exactly above, but also the ad-hominem against me which you proceeded together with the anonymous user in the article discussion. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 20:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- This wall of text is the exact problem at hand here. You won't follow our site's policies but instead are just making up your own as to why breaking policy is now fine. The "discussion" was barely dormant and as you admit there was no consensus on including the material you demand be included. Ergo, per policy it can't be included.
- Frankly you are incapable of editing in a collaborative manner. I think the fact that you've been blocked repeatedly both here and at our Greek equivalent for disruptive behaviour and edit-warring demonstrates this very well. Rambling Rambler (talk) 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler The problem here is that you don't understand the policy. The one who needs consensus to make edits, is the one that wants to make a change at the page. In our case, maybe the random version in which the page was locked was your version, but that does not change the fact that you were the one who wanted to make a change. You need consensus, you did not achieved it. Also, that is ad-hominem again, and now you checked and my greek WP blocks? Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is not ad hominem to bring up your history of blocks for edit warring and disruption when the topic of discussion is your conduct.
- The policy, which I quoted for your benefit, literally says the onus is on the person who wants to include the disputed content which is you. You want this claim to be on the article and myself and others have disputed it. Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler there is not such as disputed content. The party has 5 members affiliated with it, and there is source about it. Your edits where those which need consnensus, because you are the one which want to change the original. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The fact myself and others have said it's not supported and therefore shouldn't be there is literally a dispute... Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler yes it is a dispute, but if there is not a consensus that your dispute is valid, the version that remains is the original one, that is also supported by source. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The fact myself and others have said it's not supported and therefore shouldn't be there is literally a dispute... Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler there is not such as disputed content. The party has 5 members affiliated with it, and there is source about it. Your edits where those which need consnensus, because you are the one which want to change the original. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler The problem here is that you don't understand the policy. The one who needs consensus to make edits, is the one that wants to make a change at the page. In our case, maybe the random version in which the page was locked was your version, but that does not change the fact that you were the one who wanted to make a change. You need consensus, you did not achieved it. Also, that is ad-hominem again, and now you checked and my greek WP blocks? Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler There was a long time period in which we did not have any edit in the discussion. The original version was the one with the seats. The admins at that cases, lock the article at a random version (otherwise there should have been a clarification from the admin). So the lack of consensus concerns your own version, not the original one, to which I restored the article. Finally, I need to point out that you have made a series of problematic contributions, such as misguiding users by referring them to Misplaced Pages policies that are not related to the subject as I demonstrated exactly above, but also the ad-hominem against me which you proceeded together with the anonymous user in the article discussion. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 20:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler I will prove you that you actually interpret policies as you see fit, and you don't pay attention to what they say. WP:IDHT:
- There has never been a specific version of the article. A few hours after adding the uncited 5 MPs, the edit was undone. It is also worth noting that the original contributor of the addition about mps, Quinnnnnby never engaged in an edit war or challenged our disagreements, as you did. 77.49.204.122 (talk) 20:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I did, but you also did. So the only user to act properly at that case was @Quinnnnnby. And guess with what opinion Quinnnnby agreed at the discussion... Hellenic Rebel (talk) 20:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Hellenic Rebel:, Rambling Rambler is actually right: if you wish to include text which has been disputed, you must include sourcing. You cannot just attempt to force the content in, regardless of what consensus you believe has been achieved. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HandThatFeeds this is exactly why I am saying that the users propagandize: there was a source used! Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then it's time to discuss that source on the Talk page instead of just ramming into the article. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HandThatFeeds there was a discussion on the page. The source states that 5 MPs of the Hellenic Parliament are in the new party. And the users, after their first argument that it should have a parliamentary group was shot down (as it was obvious that this policy is not followed in any party), they moved on to a logic that the source should say verbatim "5 MPs stand" for the party... Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HandThatFeeds I have lost hours of my life to "discussing" this at this point. They're entirely either refusing or simply incapable of understanding that because they have sources for Claim A that doesn't mean they can put a similar but still different Claim B on the article. They however insist they can because unlike us they're "Hellenic" and therefore know that Claim A = Claim B while refusing to accept this is WP:OR. Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then it's time to discuss that source on the Talk page instead of just ramming into the article. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HandThatFeeds this is exactly why I am saying that the users propagandize: there was a source used! Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Hellenic Rebel:, Rambling Rambler is actually right: if you wish to include text which has been disputed, you must include sourcing. You cannot just attempt to force the content in, regardless of what consensus you believe has been achieved. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I did, but you also did. So the only user to act properly at that case was @Quinnnnnby. And guess with what opinion Quinnnnby agreed at the discussion... Hellenic Rebel (talk) 20:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler an admin locked the page, and then anybody respond even if we make pings. That means that they just locked the page because there was an edit war, and and no one dealt with the article. The discussion ended weeks ago and also you've made a public call. If somebody wanted, they would have closed the discussion. So I don't think it's a case of IDHT, because the time intervals in which someone could engage (either to participate in the discussion, or an administrator to close it) had exceeded the normal. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 19:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- My friends, anonymous user and @Rambling Rambler, and also dear user and adminis that are going to see the previous POVs. The article had a specific version, which you decided to dispute by causing a correction war, that could easily be seen at the page history. The administrator locked the page in order to reach to a consensus, which obviously couldn't happen, and there was no corresponding participation. Four users in all, the two of us presented our arguments in favor of the original version, Rambling Rambler (and somewhat monotonously and without proper documentation, the anonymous user) presented yours for the version without seats. At the end, you threw in an ad-hominem against me, to top it off. You made a call, no one else did anything, time passed. What makes you believe that the article will remain in your version, while the original was the previous one and there was no consensus?
Automatic editing, abusive behaviour, and disruptive(ish) wikihounding from User:KMaster888
(non-admin closure) While KMaster888's editing history (the original discussion) wasn't inherently bad in itself, their conduct after being questioned about it was bad, violating WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, WP:SUMMARYNO, and WP:NPA See , , , , , , , , , and their comments on this thread. Indeffed by Cullen328, and TPA revoked after , another personal attack. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 02:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:KMaster888 appears to be making lightning speed edits that are well beyond the capacity of any human to review, in addition to article content that's coming across potentially LLM-like in nature. Since December they've made over 11,000 edits, many across multiple articles within a sixty second window.
I attempted to ask about the policies around this at User_talk:Novem_Linguae and was met with a tirade of obscenities and abuse (which I want to give them a slight benefit of the doubt on, I'd be upset at being accused of being a bot if I wasn't):
As far as I can tell this peaked with a total of 89 edits in a four minute window between 08:27 to 08:31 on December 28, 2024. Most are innocuous, but there are content edits thrown in the mix and recent articles were written in a way that indicates it may be an LLM (diff not definitive, though if you are familiar with LLM output this may ring some alarm bells, but false alarms abound).
Following the quite hot thread at User:Novem Linguae's page, it's quite clear that whoever is operating that bot threw my entire edit history into the mix, because the bot systematically edited every single article that I had edited, in reverse order (over 100 so far since this came up about an couple of hours ago), going back a reasonable amount of time.
The problem is that it's clear that a bot was instructed to just make an edit, without concern for what those edits are, so you end up with questionable, misrepresented, or edits for the sake of editing at a rate far faster than any editor could address.
This one is easily one of the strangest situations I've ever encountered on Misplaced Pages. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 20:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm flattered that you've looked into my activity on Misplaced Pages so closely. But if you'd be arsed, you'd understand that it is very simple to do an insource search using a regular expression to find a lot of stylistic errors, like no space after a sentence. If you love being on my back so much, good on you, but I'd wish if you got off. KMaster888 (talk) 20:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- 1) That doesn't explain how consistently abusive you have been
- 2) While I'm aware that an overwhelming percentage of the errors you're editing out are ones that can simply be addressed by regex, I'm very clearly raising the content edits as opposed to formatting ones. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- How about we take this off of ANI, of all places? KMaster888 (talk) 21:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Obviously, if there's someone who's making bad decisions on Misplaced Pages (You), I want to check if he has messed up articles. Please tell me what articles you think I have damaged. KMaster888 (talk) 21:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, I'd appreciate if you would stop casting aspersions about me being an LLM. KMaster888 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. KMaster888 (talk) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Unless you're doing regex with your eyes, clearly you're using assistance. And the fact you're (still!) doing something that fixes the same type of typo almost as fast as I can click "Random Article" indicates you're doing more than just regex. You're finding these articles somehow.closhund/talk/ 22:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- I am doing an "insource" search using regex. KMaster888 (talk) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ah . I wasn't aware one could do that. I retract. closhund/talk/ 22:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am doing an "insource" search using regex. KMaster888 (talk) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. KMaster888 (talk) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And, I would appreciate if you would stop calling my edits strange and odd. KMaster888 (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You had over 100 edits in a row directily in chronological sequence, from newest to oldest, of my exact edit history excluding wikiprojects and talk pages. I'm allowed to find that a little strange. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why shouldn't someone call strange and odd edits strange and odd? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KMaster888 I suggest you stop with the personal attacks before you get blocked. Tarlby 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that KMaster888 should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. KMaster888 (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll just ask you straight up.Do you feel any remorse for this statement?
remove asshole
Could you explain why you felt it was best to choose those two words when blanking your talk page? Tarlby 21:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- And again:
@The Corvette ZR1 @Tarlby stop clogging up ANI with your comments.
The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 22:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And again:
- I'll just ask you straight up.Do you feel any remorse for this statement?
- I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. KMaster888 (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- , , , , , Tarlby 21:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And this: improve asinine comment and this: I wipe my ass with comments like yours. Cheers! MrOllie (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. KMaster888 (talk) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You have to abide by the rules like the rest of us. And cool it with the hostile edit summaries. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Great answer. Tarlby 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are clearly WP:NOTHERE. Attacking other editors instead of backing off, inappropriate edit summaries, what next? The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There ought to be a gossip noticeboard that doesn't clog up ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will dispute what you said. I AM HERE to build an encyclopedia. Why do you think I would have given 10,000 edits worth of my time if I didn't care? KMaster888 (talk) 21:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, WP:CIVIL and WP:SUMMARYNO tell me the contrary. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries and here indicate they're WP:OBNOXIOUS in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. KMaster888 (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wikilawyering over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of the fourth of the five pillars. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is wikilawyering. And this is at ANI, so the discussion is taking place at ANI. Answering the concerns about your conduct that were raised here on here is how you resolve the issue, not "don't talk about it on ANI", as the latter gives the impression of trying to sweep them under the rug - especially since your edit summaries MrOllie linked above make it clear this is very much not "small potatoes". - The Bushranger One ping only 23:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wikilawyering over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of the fourth of the five pillars. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. KMaster888 (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries and here indicate they're WP:OBNOXIOUS in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, WP:CIVIL and WP:SUMMARYNO tell me the contrary. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. KMaster888 (talk) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And this: improve asinine comment and this: I wipe my ass with comments like yours. Cheers! MrOllie (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that KMaster888 should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's some more diffs of KMaster888 being uncivil. From my user talk page. . I think these are forgivable if in isolation since KMaster888 may be frustrated by false accusations of being a bot, but if it's a pattern, it may need addressing.
- The WP:BLUDGEONING and WP:BADGERING of my user talk page and of this ANI is also a behavioral problem that, if a pattern, may also need addressing. It is disrespectful to interlocutor's time and brainpower to dominate discussions by replying to everything. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. KMaster888 (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The problem isn't you responding to those comments. It's about HOW you responded to those comments. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There are, in fact,
specific discussion rules
- WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. KMaster888 (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Propose indefinite block
Blocked and TPA revoked. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- KMaster888 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- You're saying "they" like it's more than one person. I am one editor. KMaster888 (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not in that sense. We use they/them pronouns as to not assume an editor's gender. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 23:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per above reasoning. MiasmaEternal☎ 23:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looks like Cullen328 beat us to that indef. MiasmaEternal☎ 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Their blank talkpage, on which they encourage discussion, has a nonexistent archive. Miniapolis 23:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That is not true. The archive page is at the subpage of the talk page, /archive. KMaster888 (talk) 23:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support - While I wouldn’t have had the same suspicions about their editing as Warren, their extremely uncivil reactions to it and further questions here, along with the further attention they’ve drawn on to prior recent behaviour has effectively demonstrated an unwillingness to engage in meaningful interaction with any other editor who disagrees with them. Rambling Rambler (talk) 23:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe revoke TPA too? This is beyond the pale. closhund/talk/ 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- After their latest personal attack, I have revoked their talk page access. Cullen328 (talk) 23:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. This personal attack against blocking admin Cullen328 is beyond the pale. This is clearly a person that lets rage get the best of them, and is not responsive to feedback. Not sure if we should close this, or let it play out and turn into a CBAN. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good block and I'd have done same if you hadn't been here first. Regardless of whether the edits were improvements, no one has the right to treat other editors as KM888 did. Star Mississippi 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good block It'd take a hand-written miracle from God for them to change their ways anytime soon.
Investigating the hounding claim
Above, there is a claim that KMaster888 is WP:HOUNDING Warrenmck by editing 100 pages that Warrenmck has edited. The editor interaction analyzer suggests that there's only an overlap of 45 pages (42 if you subtract out my user talk, KMaster888's user talk, and ANI). Warrenmck, can you please be very specific about exactly which pages overlap? Maybe give a link to KMaster888's contribs and timestamps of where this range of hounding edits begins and ends? This is a serious claim and probably actionable if enough evidence is provided. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note that there are >100 edits across the pages, since they tended to edit in a spree. The number of pages you found seems accurate, even accounting for the possibility of a few outside of this exchange. I’m not sure what exactly I can do to show the relationship to my edit history beyond I guess go pull said histories and compare them? But I wouldn’t be surprised if the vast majority of the interactions you see were from that narrow window after your talk page.
- Sorry for the drama, by the way. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ah that makes sense. I didn't think of the multiple edits to a page thing. No worries about the drama. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please don't apologise for this. Nobody should have to put up with such behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:47, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
User:FMSky
WP:BOOMERANG. PolitcalPoint blocked for a month for BLP violations. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
FMSky (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:FMSky has been persistently engaging in disruptive editing by constantly reverting (see , , and ) in bad faith over the course of more than a week in order to prevent the insertion of sourced material that states that Tulsi Gabbard had "touted working for her father’s anti-gay organization, which mobilized to pass a measure against same-sex marriage in Hawaii and promoted controversial conversion therapy", which is a discredited, harmful, and pseudoscientific practice that falsely purports to "cure" homosexuality.
" backed by two reliable sources cited (see and ) in support of the specific wording inserted into the article.
For my part, I have consistently maintained a strict self-imposed policy of 0RR, never even once reverting User:FMSky, listening to his concerns and taking his concerns seriously, tirelessly working to address his concerns with two reliable sources cited (see and ) in support of the exact same wording that User:FMSky originally objected to (see ), then, when reverted again by User:FMSky, I patiently continued to assume good faith and attempted to engage with him directly on his talk page not once but twice (see and ), which he pointedly refused to respond to on both occasions, then when reverted yet again by User:FMSky (see ), explained to him the entire series of events (see ), which User:FMSky replied to by blatantly lying that I had not addressed his concerns (see ), which, when I pointed that out and showed him the reliable sources that I cited in order to address his concerns (see ), User:FMSky replied by saying verbatim "How is that even relevant? Just because something is mentioned in a source doesn't mean this exact wording is appropriate for an encyclopedia." (see ).
I'm completely exasperated and exhausted at this point. If even using the exact same wording as the reliable sources cited in support of the specific wording inserted into the article is still unacceptable to User:FMSky, then I'm not sure what I'm even supposed to do to satisfy him. User:FMSky is clearly engaging in disruptive editing in bad faith and is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @PoliticalPoint, your source for "discredited, harmful, and pseudoscientific practice that falsely purports to "cure" homosexuality" doesn't mention Gabbard or Hawaii or her father's organization. Have you read WP:SYNTH? Schazjmd (talk) 23:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- More the case that trying to assert conversion therapy as discredited is a COATRACK, unless there was appropriate sourced coverage that associated Gabbatd with supporting a discredited theory. We can leave the blue link on conversion therapy carry the worry of explaining the issues with it, it doesn't belong on a BLP. — Masem (t) 23:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The wording does not "imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources" as the latter part of the wording, as supported by the second reliable source (see ), explains what conversion therapy is for the benefit of readers. --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you kidding me lmao. I didn't even notice that. That makes it even worse --FMSky (talk) 23:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Only commenting on this particular angle: @Schazjmd: when dealing with fringe ideas, it is sometimes the case that sources provide weight connecting the subject to a fringe idea but which do not themselves adequately explain the fringe theory. If it's due weight to talk about something like conversation therapy (or creation science, links between vaccines and autism, etc.), we run afoul of WP:FRINGE if we don't provide proper context. These cases are rare, however, and this isn't a judgment about anything in the rest of this thread. — Rhododendrites \\ 02:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The user was previously blocked and was only unblocked after agreeing to 0RR on BLPs. This was violated in the 3 reverts here and the concerns weren't adressed: 1, 2, 3. See also the previous discussion on PoliticalPoint's talk page that I initiated -- FMSky (talk) 23:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
FMSky replied by saying verbatim "How is that even relevant? Just because something is mentioned in a source doesn't mean this exact wording is appropriate for an encyclopedia.
I love how you, in bad faith, left out the most relevant part that I added: "And the statements weren't even attributed to someone" --FMSky (talk) 23:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- As already pointed out to you at my talk page (see ), those were edits, not reverts, over the course of more than week, and as also already pointed out to you at my talk page (see and ) your concerns with the wording were in fact addressed with two reliable sources cited in support with the exact same wording that you objected to, verbatim. You are blatantly lying again, as the statement is, in fact, attributed to Gabbard herself as it is she herself who "touted working for her father's anti-gay organization", which is backed by the first reliable source (see ). --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, these were reverts, as the wording I originally objected to was restored numerous times --FMSky (talk) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Those were edits over the course of over a week. The wording that you originally objected to was restored only with two reliable sources that use the exact same wording verbatim. --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you used the same wording as the sources without an attributed quote you've committed a copyright violation. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:16, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Those were edits over the course of over a week. The wording that you originally objected to was restored only with two reliable sources that use the exact same wording verbatim. --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Restoring removed content even without using the undo feature is a revert. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, these were reverts, as the wording I originally objected to was restored numerous times --FMSky (talk) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As already pointed out to you at my talk page (see ), those were edits, not reverts, over the course of more than week, and as also already pointed out to you at my talk page (see and ) your concerns with the wording were in fact addressed with two reliable sources cited in support with the exact same wording that you objected to, verbatim. You are blatantly lying again, as the statement is, in fact, attributed to Gabbard herself as it is she herself who "touted working for her father's anti-gay organization", which is backed by the first reliable source (see ). --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Besides removing obvious SYNTH, I notice that FMSky reworked unnecessary overquoting; looks like good editing on FMSky's part. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Another thing I just noticed is that the article is special-protected: "You must follow the bold-revert-discuss cycle if your change is reverted. You may not reinstate your edit until you post a talk page message discussing your edit and have waited 24 hours from the time of this talk page message."
No such discussion was initiated on Gabbard's talk page --FMSky (talk) 00:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have blocked PoliticalPoint for a month for BLP violations, an escalation of their prior two-week edit warring block. I had originally intended to just p-block them from Gabbard but I am not convinced they understand the issue and that the problematic editing wouldn't just move to another page. Should they eventually request an unblock I think serious discussion sould happen w/r/t a a topic ban on BLPs or American Politics. Star Mississippi 01:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating WP:BEFORE
- Bgsu98 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.
I noticed an editor named Bgsu98 who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by WP:BEFORE before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)
I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought.
I should note that Bgsu98 doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated Kamil Białas (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kamil Białas (2nd nomination)). One can really wonder why he does this.
P.S. More information is here: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Figure Skating#Notability guidelines. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE. It seems that no one acted on this change until Bgsu98 came.
P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time.
P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while Bgsu98 has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (source). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @Moscow Connection or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @Bgsu98 who is nominating based on community consensus. Star Mississippi 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. Liz 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- "However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules."
— They don't meet WP:NSKATE, but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet WP:GNG. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require WP:GNG, so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.
(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC) - @Star Mississippi and Liz: A WP:DRV, a deletion review? Is it maybe possible to undelete "Lilia Biktagirova" (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova)? Cause I was searching for sources for Alexandra Ievleva and found something like a short biography of hers, two paragraphs long.
Here: "Тренер Трусовой, почти партнерша Жубера, резонансная Иевлева: кто соревновался с Туктамышевой на ее 1-м ЧР (2008)".
And again, it was Bgsu98 who nominated the article back in May. And he was told, I'm quoting User:Hydronium Hydroxide: "There are a whole bunch of similarly deficient nominations. Really, such blanket nominations without evidence of WP:BEFORE and consideration of WP:ATD should be all procedurally kept as WP:SKCRIT#3 given lack of a valid deletion rationale." --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) - After looking at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova, I think no one will say that I was incorrect about how people vote at AfD. There's even a comment like this: "WP:NSKATE lists some very clear criteria for inclusion, which this article does not meet." And then a more experienced user noted that you should actually search for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but no one actually searched and the article was deleted. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have also found an interview with Lilia Biktagirova: . Yes, it is an interview, but there an editorial paragraph about her (an introductiion). There also a short paragraph here → . Not much, but considering she competed almost 20 years ago... --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes @Moscow Connection you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @Liz provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. Star Mississippi 14:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes @Moscow Connection you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @Liz provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. Star Mississippi 14:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates WP:BEFORE, otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no WP:BEFORE research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".
Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping BeanieFan11 and Doczilla. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- When closing one AfD, I made some observations about that day's many AfDs and noted in that one close regarding Bgsu98: "The nominator's burst of dozens of nominations within half an hour failed to stimulate any discussion about many of them." In my meager opinion, the massive number of rapid deletion nominations rather strongly might suggest, at the very least, a lack of due diligence regarding each and a likely violation of WP:BEFORE. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 07:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates WP:BEFORE, otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no WP:BEFORE research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".
- Moscow Connection claims to be polite, yet wrote the following: "random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom". Pinging Shrug02 who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time.
- He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hanna Harrell: "By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated Kamil Białas 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"
- I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. Moscow Connection seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- C'mon, User:Bgsu98, civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. Liz 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I apologize, Liz; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my take, User:Bgsu98. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. Liz 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @Moscow Connection to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @Liz I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @Moscow Connection is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @Bgsu98 and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while Bgsu98 directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)
Also, a note to admins: Can it be that Bgsu98 finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".
And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- @Moscow Connection I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @Bgsu98 pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @Bgsu98, making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @HyperAccelerated's comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. Shrug02 (talk) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- According to this, "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Moscow Connection
- Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people."
- No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion.
- If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep.
- I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon.
- All the best to everyone involved. Shrug02 (talk) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Moscow Connection wrote the following in his original complaint: ”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.” I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met WP:GNG, the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. Bgsu98 (Talk) 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Moscow Connection I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @Bgsu98 pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @Bgsu98, making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @HyperAccelerated's comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. Shrug02 (talk) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while Bgsu98 directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)
- As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @Moscow Connection to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @Liz I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @Moscow Connection is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @Bgsu98 and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my take, User:Bgsu98. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. Liz 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- C'mon, User:Bgsu98, civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. Liz 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...
(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.
(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's exactly the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.
(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. Ravenswing 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- “Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria (
What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.
), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. — - Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a WP: BOOMERANG. HyperAccelerated (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ValarianB (talk) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often really poor; many are simply
Non-notable figure skater
, which doesn't say much of anything. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- And @Moscow Connection, you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide proper sourcing for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created seventeen years ago -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. Ravenswing 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The nominator has agreed to slow down, so the point is kind of moot, but I still wanted to make clear: Ravenswing, 45 AFDs rapidly is ridiculous, especially when next-to-no-BEFORE is done and there previously was no indication of stopping – remember that there's only a few editors in the topic area – and many of these, which are notable, require more than simple Google searches to find the coverage that demonstrates notability (i.e., for many, the coverage would be in places such as difficult-to-find offline newspapers in foreign languages) – making so many nominations rapidly without appropriate searches will inevitably result in some truly notable ones being deleted due to the lack of effort. While you may not care about the stubs, others do, and simply because the two editors who drive-by to the nom and say "Delete per above" didn't find coverage absolutely does not equate to the subject being confirmed non-notable. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide proper sourcing for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created seventeen years ago -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. Ravenswing 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Actually, I have attempted to do something yesterday. I voted and commented on two nominations. ("Alexandra Ievleva" and "Viktoria Vasilieva".) Cause these two are Russian figure skaters, and I know they are famous enough. Immediately a user came and wholesale dismissed all the sources I found. I don't really want to play that game, it's too tiresome. I have found another source for Alexandra Ievleva just now. Let's see what the outcome will be.
But really, I can't do it anymore. Maybe if these were articles I created, I would invest into searching for sources. Now, I just tried a little bit and saw that some people really want to delete these articles for whatever reason. There are a few people actually searching for sources at some nominations, but mostly it's just that old "you go and provide third-party reliable sources independent of the subject, so I can look at them and dismiss them" game.
Okay, people will say I am the bad person here, but I have actually tried to save a couple of articles. I don't understand why people so eagerly want to delete articles than can actually be kept. (Okay, there are mostly interviews and short news about the figure skaters placing here and there or missing some events, but those sources are reliable enough. And one can actually take the sources into account and leave the articles be.)
By the way, I have tried searching on what was once Yandex News, but the news search doesn't work anymore. (Here's an example.) There's nothing prior to 2024 when Yandex sold its assets including the news engine. And I can remember when the list of news articles there went back to 2003 or so... --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- What I’m reading is that you don’t like how AfD works, and there hasn’t been any departure from normal processes. ANI is not the appropriate venue to discuss these issues. HyperAccelerated (talk) 10:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if this looks like a ramble. These were initially two or three separate replies. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- And @Moscow Connection, you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
...editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes
. Just curious if you or anyone else honestly believes that the opinions of these editors takes priority over the view held in the real world that six million articles falls substantially short of "the sum of all human knowledge". One such view published almost five years ago contained the following statement: "According to one estimate, the sum of human knowledge would require 104 million articles". I know some of you are in serious denial and will try to suppress this as a result, but I'm gonna keep saying it anyway. We don't have the sum of all human knowledge, nor are we trying to achieve it. At best, we're the sum of what Google and legacy media has spoon-fed you today within the past X number of years. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions (posted 00:37, January 9, 2025 UTC)
- RadioKAOS, I'm not going to argue about whose "view takes priority" in the area of the sum of human knowledge but in an AFD discussion, decisions are made by determining the consensus of the editors who bothered to show up and present compelling policy-based arguments. That is typically editors who are active on Misplaced Pages and have an opinion about an article, not any scholar coming up with estimates on the necessary number of articles we should have. How many AFDs do you participate in on a regular basis? And there is no one here that who will attempt to "suppress" your argument. As long as you are not personally attacking any editors, I think you are free to have whatever opinions you do have about this project. No penalty. Liz 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- (nods) Heck, "some authority" came up with canards such as that we all ought to take 10,000 steps a day, drink eight glasses of water a day, and that our basal body temps are all 98.6. I likewise decline to bow before the suspect, threadbare wisdom of "one estimate" that we need 104,000,000 articles ... speaking of serious denial. (grins) Ravenswing 07:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Ravenswing:, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.
And when I found another source, you said that there were "3 sentences" while there were actually 7.
I've looked at your contributions, you don't look like someone who can read Russian or has any interest in figure skating. So why are you doing this? (Okay, you can have the articles, you won.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- Please be careful with the WP:ASPERSIONS, Moscow Connection. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please be careful with the WP:ASPERSIONS, Moscow Connection. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Ravenswing:, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.
Potential company editing?
Closing by OP request. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Bouchra Filali (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Djellaba (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
The user Bouchra Filali uploaded this image to the page Djellaba. They share a name with a fashion company and seem to have replaced the original image on the article with a product from their company (see revision 1268097124). I reverted their edit and warned them, but due to my concern, and following advice from an administrator on the wikimedia community discord, I am reporting this here as well. I have also asked for advice on what to do with the commons file, and will be filing any necessary reports there. Cmrc23 ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ 04:49, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- They have only made one edit on this project which was adding an image to an article, it looks like they uploaded the image on the Commons. Have you tried talking about your issues with them on their Commons user talk page, Cmrc23? This doesn't seem like it's a problem for the English Misplaced Pages. We don't even know if they'll be back to make a second edit. Liz 06:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I asked the commons folks on discord and it seems that, since they uploaded an image that they own, all is well. I have to admit that I was a little hasty here, I've never used this noticeboard before. Feel free to close this if you feel there is nothing more to discuss, I'll monitor the user in question. Cmrc23 ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ 06:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Smm380 and logged out editing
- Smm380 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 195.238.112.0/20 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)
I have warned this editor twice about logged out editing because they are evidently editing the article history of Ukraine both logged in and as an IP. This makes tracking their edits more difficult since they have made hundreds altogether in recent months (and they are only focused on this specific article). The IP edits seem to come from 195.238.112.0/20 (at least most of them) and they are often made shortly before/after Smm380 decides to log back in. See for example this edit by Smm380 and this edit by the IP a few minutes later regarding the same section. This is now especially a problem because they are deciding to make reverts as an IP.
In general, they have not listened to prior warnings. I have given them multiple warnings about adding unsourced text, but they are still continuing to add unsourced text without including citations first. But they have not responded to any of my warnings or explained why they are still doing this. Mellk (talk) 09:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I noticed the concerns raised regarding edits made both from my account and an IP address, and I’d like to clarify that this was neither intentional nor malicious. I simply forgot to log into my account while making those edits.
- I apologize if this caused any confusion. My sole intention was to improve content related to Ukrainian history, a topic I am deeply passionate about.
- Regarding the delayed response to your messages, I sincerely apologize. I hadn’t noticed the notifications until recently, as I was unfamiliar with how Misplaced Pages’s messaging system works. Now that I understand it better, I’ll ensure to respond more promptly in the future.
- I truly appreciate the valuable work you do to maintain the quality and reliability of Misplaced Pages. I will make sure to contribute responsibly and stay logged in during my future edits. Smm380 (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Another not here IP
Blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
2601:18C:8183:D410:1D8C:39C9:DCEE:1166 (talk · contribs) is altering another users posts to insert political commentary ] as well as making PA's, with a clear statement they do not intend to stop ], and edit warring over it as well. Slatersteven (talk) 14:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Now past 3rr reinsertion of their alteration of another users post. So its now vandalism. Slatersteven (talk) 14:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
As well as this tit for tat report ]. Slatersteven (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- IP blocked for edit warring. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Heritage Foundation planning to doxx editors
Closing to prevent a split discussion. The most central discussion about this is currently held at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. —Alalch E. 22:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
See current discussion on Heritage Foundation talkpage. Various sources are beginning to report on this, see , . It seems they plan to “identify and target Misplaced Pages editors abusing their position by analyzing text patterns, usernames, and technical data through data breach analysis, fingerprinting, HUMINT, and technical targeting,” and “engage curated sock puppet accounts to reveal patterns and provoke reactions, information disclosure,” and “push specific topics to expose more identity-related details.” An IP user on the discussion page says "they intend to add malicious links (sources) that will set cookies, grab your IP, and get tracking going for your device. This has likely already started. Be careful, there are lots of ways to hide where a link goes." Photos of Japan (talk) 17:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think there's a far more productive discussion going on at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. BusterD (talk) 17:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- A friendly reminder: It's always a good time to review the strength and age of account passwords, plus consider two-factor verification. The world is constantly changing... BusterD (talk) 17:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Isn't doxing a federal/punishable offense in ten states (more or less), including DC? If they grab the information of or out a minor, that can easily be taken on as a form of harassment and won't end well. EF 17:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- No doubt the Trump adminstration will make pursuing such cases a high priority. EEng 22:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm unsure why this isn't a WMF issue, due to potential legal and safeguarding issues. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The WMF has been made aware. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 19:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Truffle457
Editor blocked indefinitely. Liz 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Truffle457 (talk · contribs)
"Murad I the ruler of the Ottoman Turks seems to have been a blasphemous person"
I don't even know what to call this. This user has few edits but most are like this. Beshogur (talk) 22:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a new user with only a single level I notice on their page. I've issued a level II caution for using talk pages as a forum and added a welcome template. If this persists, stronger measures may be needed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Beshogur, I'd advise talking with an editor, through words, not templates, before filing a complaint at ANI. That's a general recommendation unless there is active vandalism going on. Liz 22:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- His comments are disturbing tbh. Beshogur (talk) 22:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The user's response to Ad Orientem's warning demonstrates that they have no insight into their misconduct and are WP:NOTHERE.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Indeffed per WP:CIR. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, by having a conversation, you discerned that CIR applied. Some communication, I think, is better than silence at least when you are trying to make sense of an unclear situation. Liz 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
YZ357980, second complaint
I have again reverted YZ357980's insertion of an image of dubious copyright; change of Somali Armed Forces native-name to an incorrect format; and violation of MOS:INFOBOXFLAG at Somali Armed Forces - see ] which had another editor fix the incorrect file format. I believe this editor is WP:NOTHERE and not willing to communicate and I would request administrator attention to this matter. Kind regards Buckshot06 (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record, that image has been on Commons since 2015 and was made by a different user. That said, YZ357980 continues to make these borderline disruptive edits and has never posted on an article talk page or a user talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace until communication improves, as it is not optional. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
My reverted edit at List of Famicom Disk System games
At worst, this deserves a {{minnow}}. This is, at heart, a content dispute, and Talk:List of Famicom Disk System games is the place to discuss it. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi
I added {{clear}} to the top of table of List of Famicom Disk System games to make the table use the whole horizontal space. I did it according to other list of video games articles and reception section of some video games articles to help the table list look better or not reception table to conflict with references (double column references more specifically).
However @NakhlaMan: reverted my edit and with a rude language called it "UGLIER" and calls it waste of too much space.
With my edit, it adds just a small space to the top of list heading but the table could be read easier and uses the whole available space. Shkuru Afshar (talk) 04:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think this is the right place for this. Yes, the user could have been much nicer on their opinion, but this is too much of an escalation, too fast. I would advise commenting on their talk page, or on the page talk page. Cheers, Heart 04:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC) (Non-administrator comment)
- Yes, their edit summary was mildly rude, but this is not actionable, please open a discussion on the article's talk page. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit War in Korean clans of foreign origin
Ger2024 blocked as a sock.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User: Ger2024
Ger2024 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Ger2024 has been Misplaced Pages:Edit warring and violated WP:3RR (they have as of now made five reverts) and possibly WP:NPOV despite my direct requests asking them to not engage in an edit war and to instead discuss with me and @CountHacker on the Talk Page. While they did respond to my efforts to try to talk to them on the Talk Page, they immediately then reverted my edits after they made their comments. The initial edits started when another Misplaced Pages user was verifying and deleting some info on the page (likely for factual accuracy) when the reverts began.
In regards to WP:NPOV, there is a POV push, despite the multiple corrections both I and @CountHacker have issued. We notified the user that the same source they are using from is generally considered historically unreliable because it is a collection of folklore and legends (the source, while a valuable insight into Korean folklore, claims that the founder of the Korean kingdom of Silla was born from a literal Golden Egg, so cannot be taken to be factual because humans cannot be born from Golden Eggs).
Despite trying to talk to them, they are just ignoring my and CountHackers actual points, and we even had more discussion but they just made their fifth revert.
- This report belongs at WP:ANEW. Heart 05:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC) (Non-administrator comment)
- Who posted this complaint, they didn't leave a signature which, to me, shows a lack of experience. They also didn't leave any diffs so it's impossible to judge if there were indeed reverts. And as HeartGlow states, this is more suitable for ANEW which focuses on edit-warring. Liz 08:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unclear if genuine question or rhetorical, but in case it's the former, it seems to be User:Sunnyediting99. (They have over 1000 edits and have been editing since 2022, but it appears they may be used to using the Reply tool, which might explain why they didn't think to ~~~~ since replying in that manner does that automatically? I think? ...Not trying to excuse it so much as I'm trying to understand it.) - Purplewowies (talk) 08:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry about that, I was a bit sleep deprived when I made, I'll go to WP:ANEW.
- And yea im way too used to the reply tool, i think i make these posts like once perhaps every few months so i got a bit rusty on this. Thanks! Sunnyediting99 (talk) 13:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unclear if genuine question or rhetorical, but in case it's the former, it seems to be User:Sunnyediting99. (They have over 1000 edits and have been editing since 2022, but it appears they may be used to using the Reply tool, which might explain why they didn't think to ~~~~ since replying in that manner does that automatically? I think? ...Not trying to excuse it so much as I'm trying to understand it.) - Purplewowies (talk) 08:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Subtle vandalism by 8.40.247.4
- 8.40.247.4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Since early 2020, User:8.40.247.4 has consistently and subtly made edits that:
- minimize achievements and contributions of black people in American society
- obscure or soften wording about right-wing and far-right leanings of conservative figures
- promote fringe, racist, or pseudo-scientific theories
The IP generally attempts to disguise the edits by lying about changes made in the edit summary. Here is a list of problem edits in chronological order:
| Date | Page | Issue |
|---|---|---|
| Mar 4, 2020 | McComb, Mississippi (diff) |
|
| May 31, 2020 | John Derbyshire (diff) |
|
| Jul 21, 2020 | Richard Hayne (diff) |
|
| Jul 28, 2020 | Louie Gohmert (diff) |
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| Sep 24, 2020 | Back-to-Africa movement (diff) |
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| Jan 14, 2021 | Virginia Dare (diff) |
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| Apr 28, 2021 | Bret Stephens (diff) |
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| June 25, 2021 | John Gabriel Stedman (diff) |
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| Oct 7, 2021 | Appalachian music (diff) |
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| Nov 27, 2021 | Steve Sailer (diff) |
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| Jan 26, 2022 | Mongoloid (diff) |
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| Jul 6, 2022 | Indian Mills, New Jersey (diff) |
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| Feb 20, 2023 | Myth of meritocracy (diff) |
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| Mar 26, 2023 | Millford Plantation (diff) |
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| Jun 17, 2023 | John Birch Society (diff) |
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| Jan 9, 2025 | Robert Gould Shaw (diff) |
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| Jan 9, 2025 | Virginia Dare (diff) |
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The IP doesn't make enough edits at a time for vandalism warnings to rise to level 4, and thus has never been blocked (which is why I'm reporting this here and not at WP:AIV). These groups of edits are also spaced out over months, so a different user warns the IP each time (eight times so far!). The user, unfamiliar with the IP's editing history, treats the old warnings as "expired" and simply issues another level 1 or 2 warning.
I believe this IP should be banned for a while. Unfortunately, there are probably many more like this one that haven't been caught yet. --Iiii I I I (talk) 09:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I spot checked these and yeah this is bad. Using false and misleading edit summaries to remove in most cases sourced descriptions to slant articles. spryde | talk 12:42, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Jesus Christ. Blocked for two years, since it looks like the IP is stable. charlotte 15:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Egl7, anti-Armenian behaviour
Egl7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Egl7 clearly has bone to pick with Armenia, including dancing on the fine line of Armenian genocide denial, not to mention severe WP:CIR issues. As a Russian admin admit perfectly put it when they indeffed Egl7; "Since the participant clearly came to Misplaced Pages to fight, I have blocked him indefinitely, because with such edits one cannot expect constructiveness from him."
- Egl7 never tries to take responsibility for their actions, instead being upset and obsessing over that I didn't revert a random IP that added "Armenian" under "common languages" in an infobox almost two years ago , mentioning that 7 (!) times
- According to Egl7, having three things (out of 25) about Armenia on my userpage - being part of the WikiProject Armenia, being interested in the history of Greater Armenia, and opposing the denial of the Armenian genocide, means I support "Armenia's actions" , whatever that means. They never explained it despite being asked to, which leads me to the next thing.
- Here is this incredibly bizarre rant by Egl7 for me having stuff about Armenia on my userpage and not Azerbaijan, accusing me of anti-Azerbaijani sentiment and whatnot;
- Egl7 does not understand when someone is not interested in engaging in WP:FORUM whataboutism, instead resorting to WP:HARASS, first on my talk page , then an article talk page , then their own talk page . This random question about the Khojaly massacre appeared after I asked them if they denied the Armenian Genocide since they considered me having a userpage about it part of "supporting Armenia's actions". According to this well sourced Wiki section , the term "genocide" is a "fabrication" for the Khojaly massacre, which is "used to counter the narrative of the Armenian genocide."
- Dancing on the fine line of Armenian genocide denial, if not denying it
- Despite being blocked on the Russian Misplaced Pages for it, their first action here was trying the very same thing they were indeffed for ; changing "Nakhichevan" (Armenian spelling) to "Nakhichivan" (Azerbaijani spelling)
- I truly tried to have WP:GF despite their disruptive conduct and previous block, but this user is simply WP:NOTHERE. There also seems to be severe WP:CIR at hand, as they struggle understanding a lot of what I say, including even reading WP:RS, which I had to ask them to read 5 (!) times before I gave up. As seen in our long discussion , they also to struggle understand basic sentences/words, such as the difference between "official" and "common".
I'm not going to respond to Egl7 here unless an admin wants me to. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour
@HistoryofIran clearly has bone to pick with Azerbaijan, including reverting my good-faith work which includes correction of arrangement of the "Today is part of" infobox following the country, in which, at present, the largest part of the territory of the Nakhchivan Khanate is located. @HistoryofIran is reverting back changes, saying that my https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&diff=prev&oldid=1268162595 edit is not an improvement without any real reason and without offering any argument. Also they are stating that there is a restriction according to Misplaced Pages:GS/AA, while ignoring edits of other users. I asked them many times to open a discussion so both sides could offer different proposals which in turn would lead to a consensus. In response all my requests were ignored. Also they have been accusing me of having conflicts with other users and countries while I have never noted or mentioned any and they have been impolite to me all the time, while i have never been impolite or rude to them. I want to say that I am blocked on ru.wikipedia, again, because of no real reason(They are vandalizing and projecting their actions onto me) and now i'm even worried that en.wikipedia will do the same to me.
They are also dancing on the fine line of denying Khojaly massacre, if not denying it.
Thank You. Egl7 (talk) 15:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Boomerang this is a clearly retaliatory filing. I think Egl7 is WP:NOTHERE. Simonm223 (talk) 15:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Boomerang obvious retaliatory filling. Lavalizard101 (talk) 15:07, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a non-EC editor, you should not be discussing Armenia/Azerbaijan issues at all except for making specific, constructive edit requests on the relevant talk pages. Once you received notice about the restriction, none of your related edits were in good faith, and all may be reverted without being considered edit warring. And quite frankly, the diffs that HistoryofIran has presented about your behavior don't look great. Your behavior on Russian Misplaced Pages doesn't affect your rights on English Misplaced Pages, but since you brought it up, I have to agree that you were there and now here more to fight than to edit a collaborative encyclopedia. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CoffeeCrumbs tell me, please, if there is a restriction why are everybody's edits are ignored except mine? You are not doing justice. Egl7 (talk) 15:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because the restriction is specific to people who do not have extended confirmed status. Simonm223 (talk) 15:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- i know that i'm being picky and can sound like a snitch, don't get me wrong, but, at least, i'm editing from an account while other users are editing from random IPs. How is it possible for a random IP to have an extended confirmed status? Egl7 (talk) 15:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The person you created this obviously retaliatory report against is not an IP and does have EC status. The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward. Simonm223 (talk) 15:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not taking about @HistoryofIran here. Look up the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&action=history. You can see that there are IPs, edits of which were ignored even if those edits have been done after the restriction had been set. This is what makes it unfair. By this logic my edits should've been ignored too. Egl7 (talk) 16:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- No IP has edited the page in question in nearly a year. You are complaining about a non-issue. signed, Rosguill 16:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The restriction has been set much earlier than a year. Egl7 (talk) 16:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Right, but at ANI we deal with
urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
The IP edits here are old news. Further, having now reviewed the page's last 5 years of history...out of 7 IP edits made, 5 were reverted almost immediately, 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (Special:Diff/1203058517), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (Special:Diff/1177447457, which added "Armenian language"). You'll notice upon minimal investigation, however, that HistoryofIran's most embattled edits to this page were to remove "Armenian language" from the article in July of 2023; it's rather disingenuous to accuse them of all people of turning a blind eye here. signed, Rosguill 16:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- This does not refute what I said above. Egl7 (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- There are actually 2 or more of them. I guess it's his duty to support both sides and remove or add information which is or is not necessary. Egl7 (talk) 16:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're trying to say here at this point, but it also doesn't matter. HoI raised multiple valid concerns regarding the quality of your editing in an area that per our community guidelines, you should be intentionally avoiding. In response, you filed a retaliatory report and are now arguing technicalities that are tangential to the substance of HoI's initial report. The fact that you are arguing such trivial, irrelevant points is evidence against you in these proceedings. Your best course of action is to follow Simonm223's advice above. Failure to take that advice at this point is almost certain to end with you blocked. signed, Rosguill 16:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Right, but at ANI we deal with
- The restriction has been set much earlier than a year. Egl7 (talk) 16:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- No IP has edited the page in question in nearly a year. You are complaining about a non-issue. signed, Rosguill 16:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? Egl7 (talk) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not taking about @HistoryofIran here. Look up the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nakhichevan_Khanate&action=history. You can see that there are IPs, edits of which were ignored even if those edits have been done after the restriction had been set. This is what makes it unfair. By this logic my edits should've been ignored too. Egl7 (talk) 16:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's not. However, someone making an inappropriate edit without being caught does not make your inappropriate edits into appropriate ones. There have been many successful bank robberies in history, but that doesn't mean I'm allowed to rob the bank next to my grocery store. You need to start focusing on how you conduct yourself, not on how others do, because right now, you appear to be headed towards a block. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 16:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I understand you. But i want to note that no matter how successful are the robberies, a lengthy criminal investigation will be launched. In addition, i want to say that i wasn't aware of those edits before I did mine. Egl7 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- You did receive a warning on your talk page. Your conduct issues are not limited to violating ECP. You would be wise to heed the advice given in this thread from Simonm223 and Rosguill. The community does not have much patience for nationalist editing. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? Egl7 (talk) 16:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:GS/AA,
The restriction applies to all edits and pages related to the topic area, broadly construed
. That includes complaints about other editors. Which you should know already, as you have been repeatedly warned about GS/AA and should have read that page carefully. signed, Rosguill 16:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)- So Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident, which in my case is "HistoryofIran, anti-Azerbaijani behaviour"? I am asking this because you said that "The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward". And still, what you said in this comment does not refute what I said above. Egl7 (talk) 16:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:GS/AA,
- Is there a rule, that a non-EC editor can't report an incident? Egl7 (talk) 16:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- You did receive a warning on your talk page. Your conduct issues are not limited to violating ECP. You would be wise to heed the advice given in this thread from Simonm223 and Rosguill. The community does not have much patience for nationalist editing. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- I understand you. But i want to note that no matter how successful are the robberies, a lengthy criminal investigation will be launched. In addition, i want to say that i wasn't aware of those edits before I did mine. Egl7 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- The person you created this obviously retaliatory report against is not an IP and does have EC status. The correct thing to do, the thing you should do if you want to enjoy any opportunity to continue participating in this project, is to immediately withdraw this complaint and commit to adherence with WP rules going forward. Simonm223 (talk) 15:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- i know that i'm being picky and can sound like a snitch, don't get me wrong, but, at least, i'm editing from an account while other users are editing from random IPs. How is it possible for a random IP to have an extended confirmed status? Egl7 (talk) 15:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lists of everyone that has been sanctioned for GS/AA violations, or CT/AA violations more broadly, can be found at Misplaced Pages:General_sanctions/Armenia_and_Azerbaijan#Individual_sanctions and further at WP:AELOG under each year's Armenia-Azerbaijan (CT/A-A) section. Note that this only lists people who repeatedly ignored warnings and got blocked for it, simple reverts are not logged. I would encourage you to avoid getting your own username added to that list. signed, Rosguill 15:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because the restriction is specific to people who do not have extended confirmed status. Simonm223 (talk) 15:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CoffeeCrumbs tell me, please, if there is a restriction why are everybody's edits are ignored except mine? You are not doing justice. Egl7 (talk) 15:39, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- All I see is Egl7 doubling down. I have already tried to tell them that there was nothing wrong with the IP edit they are fixiated on, and that it doesn’t excuse their unconstructice edits regardless. The fact that they were caught red handed in genocide denial and anti-Armenian conduct and then fruitlessly attempts to make me appear as the same with Azerbaijanis by copy-pasting part of my report and replace “Armenian” with “Azerbaijani” says a lot about this user. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HistoryofIran "There was nothing wrong"
- As @Rosguill said 1 is arguably not covered by GS/AA (Special:Diff/1203058517), leaving exactly 1 edit that probably should have been reverted but wasn't (Special:Diff/1177447457, which added "Armenian language").
- As I understand you were aware or now are aware of those edits done by those IPs what tells me that you admit that you ignored or are ignoring the edits that have been done after the restriction has been set and now you are still stating that there was or is nothing wrong with those IPs' edits. Egl7 (talk) 16:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- And we're done here. If you can read my comments here close enough to try to use them to make tendentious arguments at HoI, you should be able to understand that I already told you this is not even slightly appropriate. signed, Rosguill 16:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC)