Revision as of 17:43, 15 March 2010 editSandstein (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators188,679 edits →PCPP: closed← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 21:15, 23 January 2025 edit undoRosguill (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators144,380 edits →Result concerning שלומית ליר: ReplyTag: Reply | ||
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== |
==שלומית ליר== | ||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Smallangryplanet}} 17:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Request concerning Cs32en=== | |||
; User requesting enforcement : –] ] 19:49, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks| |
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|שלומית ליר}}<p>{{ds/log|שלומית ליר}}</p> | ||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
;Sanction or remedy that this user violated : ] | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation of ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
ShlomitLir (שלומית ליר) created their account back in 2014. The breakdown of their edits is as follows: | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
# "''Cinnamon Stillwell is a neo-conservative political activist, not an independent observer, and the text is an opinion piece.''" More anti-conservative push (reverting for the sake of reverting a conservative). | |||
# "''Her writing is not based on journalistic independence, but on a political agenda.''" More disagreements with conservative views. (Hell, I'm as liberal as they come and I see no issue with her.) | |||
# "''This article is not the place to promote the agenda of neo-conservative activists''"... clear intentions provided here. Beliefs do not constitute verifiability nor does it disparage them. | |||
# More defending of conspiracies. | |||
# "''The reaction of "some" Palestinians and Serbians in not notable in the context of this article.''" Anything that differs from his opinion goes, apparently. | |||
# See above. | |||
# See above. | |||
# "''Therefore, arguing that Ahmadinejad does not know anything about 9/11, and ''for this reason'' we don't include his statement in the article, misses the point.''" Eh, weak argument. | |||
# <small>(Added post-initial filing 07:10, 9 March 2010 (UTC))</small> | |||
# <small>(Added post-initial filing 07:10, 9 March 2010 (UTC))</small> I normally wouldn't do something like this, but I have employed the option multiple times on this page, with it typically closing the argument and preventing further attacks/surges of conspiracy. We do not censor or even try to censor the viewpoint, as we often direct them to the conspiracy article. | |||
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required): | |||
# | |||
# Warning by {{user|Turian}} | |||
;Enforcement action requested (], ] or ]) : A one week block alongside an indefinite topic ban on anything related to September 11th. | |||
*2014 to 2016: no edits. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : He has been given multiple chances to adhere to the ruling of the arbitration case, yet has not followed through with the ruling or the ruling of the enforcement case. He is one of the problems in the constant push for NPOV fringe theories relating to 9/11. –] ] 19:52, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*2017 to 2019: 1 edit per year. None related to PIA. | |||
*2022: 7 edits. Mostly in their userspace. | |||
*2023: 21 edits. Again, mostly in their userspace. Made two edits in the talk page of ] complaining about its content and calling it . | |||
* 2024: Started editing after a 10 month break at the end of October. | |||
**Made 51 edits in October and 81 edits in November (copyedits, adding links, minor edits). | |||
**In December, that number rose up to almost 400, including 116 in December 6 alone and 98 in December 7. Became ECR that day. | |||
**Immediately switched to editing in PIA, namely in the ] article where they with an unclear image with a dubious caption, and without providing a reason why. | |||
**They also edited the ] article, with a caption not supported by the source (replaced by yet with a contextless caption when the previous image was removed) and WP:UNDUE content . | |||
**they also in the second AfD for ] despite never having interacted with that article or its previous AfD. They have barely surpassed 500 edits, but the gaming is obvious, highlighted by the sudden switch to editing in PIA. | |||
More importantly, there's the issue of POV pushing. I came across authored by them on Ynet, once again complaining about what they perceive as an anti Israeli bias on Misplaced Pages. They have also authored a report for the World Jewish Congress covering the same topic. The report can be seen in full . I think that someone with this clear POV agenda shouldn't be near the topic. | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
===Discussion concerning Cs32en=== | |||
<!-- The following are examples. Write "Not applicable" or similar if this is not a discretionary sanctions enforcement request. Otherwise, fill out at least one line that applies and delete the rest. If you wish to request discretionary sanctions but none of these situations apply, issue an alert yourself instead of making this request, see the link above. --> | |||
*Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on and re-iterated on (see the system log linked to above). | |||
*Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on by {{admin|Femke}}. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
====Statement by Cs32en==== | |||
Adding some additional comments on 2025-01-16: On top of POV issues, the user has a number of tweets that appear to be a , , , and . They've also been . If this - combined with the tweets, the forms, the op-ed and the report to the WJC, all under this user's name (that they also use to edit Misplaced Pages - this is ) isn't a clear cut case of canvassing, I don't know what is. ] (]) 20:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Adding some more comments on 2025-01-22: The user in question says that they have been on[REDACTED] for years – and so surely aware of what does and does not count as canvassing. As recently as last month they were , as well as I've already mentioned. I understand that we are always meant to ], but we are looking at a situation in which a user (1) has extensive experience with Misplaced Pages and (2) is encouraging people, subtly and not so subtly to do things that are against our policies. ] (]) 19:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
All of the edits that {{user|Turian}} enumerates are based on Misplaced Pages policies. | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
# Per ], opinion-based articles must not be used "for statements of fact without attribution". I have removed the source, because it was an opinion piece that was used without attribution. Furthermore, the section summarizes the sub-article ] (see ]), and all relevant sources can be found in this article. The sub-article also includes high-quality sources for the information that was sourced to the opinion piece. Therefore, I left the information in the article and removed only the source that was used in an inappropriate way. | |||
# The specific political position of the writer of the opinion piece is indeed irrelevant. I have pointed out that the article was not based on journalistic independence, i.e. with the aim of building a reputation based on reliability and fact checking. That's exactly the reason why there is a specific guideline on opinion pieces. | |||
# In this edit, I explained that Cinnamon Stillwell is not an editor of a journal who writes an opinion piece, but that she identifies herself as a representative of a political organization that is actively engaged in the controversies related to the information in the article. Therefore, ] is even more relevant than if it would be an opinion piece written by an independent observer. | |||
# The specific information I have removed from the article was unsourced, and it contained the word "claim", which is, or course, a word that should normally be ]. | |||
# I think that the mention of the reaction of "some Palestinians" to the September 11 attacks is undue in the main article on 9/11. This, of course, is an editorial decision, and I am very open to debate if another editor brings up the issue at the talk page or reverts my edit. | |||
# This is also undue in the main 9/11 article. The assertion that a murder in Britain perpetrated by three Muslims would have been the "most notable" is completely unsourced. The source only says the perpetrators were "found guilty ... at a time when tensions were high following the September 11 attacks". There is no indication that this event was motivated by or otherwise connected to the September 11 attacks. | |||
# I don't see a reason why the information that "the Serbian Liberation Front claimed responsibility for the bombing" of the World Trade Center in 1993 (!) is relevant for the article. But again, I'm open to discuss this point. | |||
# I have stated on the talk page before that I would not support including Ahmadinejad's views in the article, as long as there is not a notable political controversy about them. In this edit, I clarified that, in my view, the relevant question that a decision on the inclusion of his opinion should be based on is notability in the context of the article's topic, not whether Ahmadinejad has specific knowledge about the September 11 attacks. Again, a statement that is based on our policies. | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
I hope that I have clarified the issues that {{user|Turian}} has raised, and I suggest to dismiss this request. (I'll be away for about 24 hours.) <span style="border:1px solid;color:#000085"> ] ] </span> 21:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Then how do you explain your constant push for fringe conspiracies despite being told many times to stop? –] ] 21:32, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
;My edits at ] | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by שלומית ליר==== | |||
As {{user|Turian}} is claiming that my editing on Misplaced Pages is about pushing conspiracies, I'd like to provide my edits at ] during the last few months (the edits mentioned by Turian above, i.e. #1, #5, #6, and #7, are not included): | |||
I believe contents of this filing to be in clear policy violation and have reached out to the arbitration committee for further clarification before commenting further.] (]) 14:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: I was given clarification from an admin regarding my concerns and will now be drafting a response. Thank you for your patience. ] (]) 21:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
First and foremost, I value accuracy and transparency and am fully prepared to address any verified errors or missteps. My contributions are made in good faith, with only the intention of supporting Misplaced Pages’s mission. I am a veteran editor on Hebrew wiki, yet am learning to appreciate the sometimes stark differences in rules in this section, so am doing my very best to keep up to speed and abide fully as I edit further here. | |||
As a longtime editor on another wiki who finally decided this year to match pace on English wiki, I strenuously reject any accusations of EC gaming when a passing glance on my global log will confirm I have not radically altered my editing pace nor article focus. In regards to NPOV concerns, I will defer to the numerous comments below affirming that there is no policy violation by having an opinion, onsite or off, and must register mild complaint that NPOV accusations are being leveled here without any policy violation having been affirmed on any of these individual contributions. | |||
While contributions observed superficially (and without clear context of edit conversation and interaction with other editors) may appear to be agenda oriented, if I were granted more word counts, I would happily highlight the context of most edits made to make clear I was pushing back against previous bias efforts (past and present) by editors (including a number on the precipice of sanction in PIA5). Perhaps it would have been wiser to report what I felt was POV editing behavior instead of pushing back, but I only believed my efforts were to restore and preserve article balance, not disrupt it. | |||
I am grateful for the admin guidance received so far and appreciate being better informed about certain grey areas. I meant no intention to remotely approach anything resembling canvassing and believed the commentary was allowable (most especially since it was on a proceeding I was neither participating in, nor linking out to). I understand now that this may be perceived as “call to action” which was not remotely the intent, most especially to an audience that is mostly academic and, to the best of my knowledge, does not edit Misplaced Pages. (I also humbly must point out that no report was made indicating any increase in activity to suggest editors had been canvassed). I have now been well appraised and will take great care and caution to ensure no further off-site commentary remotely approaches such this territory of concern. If there are any questions or doubts in the future, I will seek future guidance from admins before venturing into potentially questionable territory. ] (]) 01:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Thebiguglyalien==== | |||
* Adjusting piped link. | |||
This is the first ARBPIA report since the proposed decision ] and it's specifically a matter of POV pushing, responding admins should be aware of the "]" remedy. The committee is discussing whether to implement a remedy stating that admins at AE are "empowered and encouraged to consider a topic ban" purely for biased editing. So far, the argument against is that it's redundant because AE admins are already supposed to do this. ] (]) 05:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* Reducing overlinking. Direct link to ] and to ]. CNN does not need to be singled out. | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-03-29/Special_report | |||
* | |||
* the ], the meeting place of the ], or the ] | |||
* Islamic extremism has its own article. (Removing link from "Islamist extremists" to "Islam".) | |||
* Removing "as a false flag in order to gain popular support for military and police expansion". This is only one of the motives that have been suggested. | |||
* "Due to lack of results" is unsourced speculation. Antagonism surfaced due to the predominantly military response, the Iraq War that was seen an unrelated to 9/11, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo etc. | |||
* (Undid revision 347151625 by Jonund (talk) User:Jonund incorrectly implied existing consensus on the talk page for his edit. Undoing the edit to encourage consensus-based solution. ] for the removal of this content.] | |||
* {{tl|Undue-section}} . Broad talk page consensus on this as well.] | |||
====Statement by Selfstudier==== | |||
In early January, I have created the article ], which appeared on ] on January 10. As I have written almost all of the content of this article, it may be a useful example to assess my editing. <span style="border:1px solid;color:#000085"> ] ] </span> 16:34, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
To the extent that it is relevant, the WJC report was discussed at ]. ] (]) 11:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by starship.paint (2)==== | |||
:Since when does having good edits give you the right to push fringe theories? I am sure we can do without your "good" edits as long as your fringe edits are no longer allowed. –] ] 17:32, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
I would to like to raise at ], where there had been an existing unsourced paragraph ({{tq|On the morning of October 7, a tour minibus...}}) that שלומית ליר added to ( / ) from the ]. '''The reference is relevant, but I believe it may not verify every detail in the Battle of Sderot paragraph''' (e.g. "Netivot", "Holocaust survivors"). The reference contains a short paragraph of text and a video that is 4:21 long. I can't watch the video in the reference, but I believe it is this same video that is 4:20 long which contains the same screenshot as the reference, on the same topic. Most of the video is an interview of the daughter of a dead victim who was on the bus (the daughter had been on the phone with the victim), except for 1:58 to 2:13 which appears to be a quote from the bus driver. The publisher themselves do not have too much reporting in their own voice (on the video), yet this reference was used to cite a paragraph entirely stated in Wikivoice. No attribution was made to the relative or the bus driver, or to the publisher. I can't be totally sure though, due to unfamiliarity with Hebrew. '''] (] / ])''' 13:53, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::You have raised concerns about specific edits in your request above. I have provided a specific explanation for each of these edits. Then, you have stated that my edits overall were somehow problematic. I then have listed all my edits to the ] article in the last few months to provide a basis for others to evaluate them. Which are the fringe edits that you are referring to? <span style="border:1px solid;color:#000085"> ] ] </span> 17:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::Everything I listed and your talk page obstruction of process. And your explanations were hardly sound at all. You have caused too much trouble in the past, and yet you continue to do it even though people have told you to stop. –] ] 18:48, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by xDanielx==== | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning Cs32en ==== | |||
{{yo|Arcticocean}} I don't really see how NPOV can be read as requiring edits which support both sides of a controversy. Our content policies don't impose any positive duties; they only tell us what not to do. The text of the policy doesn't support the notion that a ''pattern'' of edits could be in violation, even if no particular edit is in violation. | |||
In principle, such a pattern of edits could violate the , but I don't believe this board has ever enforced it. If it were to be enforced, I think it should be for more serious violations like the double standards that e.g. ] attempted to demonstrate, rather than mere opinion-driven editing which applies to the vast majority of CTOP editors. — ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>\<sup>]</sup> 03:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Mbz1===== | |||
I find the differences that were presented to be of a big concern, and believe Cs32en should be topic banned in accordance with the request.--] (]) 21:54, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
==== |
==== Statement by Hemiauchenia ==== | ||
This user has engaged in off-wiki canvassing regarding the IP conflict. Take the following recent tweet from the 12 January | |||
Could the requesting editor please annotate the request so as to explain how, specifically, each of the diffs provided violates "the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process" (])? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 20:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
For posterity in case it is deleted it contains the following remarks: {{quote|If you can't handle the facts, just delete them Propaganda on | |||
:Done. –] ] 20:28, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
@Misplaced Pages includes targeting Israel, demonizing it, and erasing inconvenient truths, from falsifying war outcomes to deleting Israeli inventions and attempting to erase the reality of Palestinian suicide bombers.}} | |||
:::Thanks. After some review, I am inclined to agree with Wildbear below and to decline enforcement action. This appears to be an attempt to win a content dispute via AE. ] is not part of ]. The edits are not ] disruptive, they are reasonably well explained by Cs32en above in terms of relevant editing policies, and the arguments made against them in the terms of these policies are weak, and often assume bad faith ("anti-conservative push", "defending of conspiracies"). That is not to say that these edits are correct either as a matter of content or conduct (I take no position on that), only that they are not misconduct warranting sanctions. Rather, they are indicative of content disagreements that ought to be worked out through normal channels. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 06:30, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
Along with this is a screenshot of the current AfD ]. People are of course allowed to be caustic about Misplaced Pages off-wiki, but calling out a specific AfD with highly charged rhetoric, essentially inciting canvassing seems out of line. ] (]) 02:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::I assume you failed to read the entire mess that is made on the September 11 attacks talk page? –] ] 06:49, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
: For those concerned that this might be outing, שלומית ליר is very open about their real life identity on their userpage. See (). If you reveal your real identity on Misplaced Pages, your tweets about Misplaced Pages on your Twitter account connected to your real-life identity are fair game to mention. There's also reverse confirmation in this tweet . ] (]) 02:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Yes. That talk page is not cited in your request. I normally only read what the editor requesting enforcement asks me to. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 06:54, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::Sorry, I have added two more diffs as evidence of his misbehavior. –] ] 07:11, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
==== |
====Statement by Cdjp1==== | ||
As we seem to be ok to pull evidence from the statements of the editor in question, they have also commented more recently about () in response to a question of if Misplaced Pages can be "saved". -- ] (]) 23:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Cs32en edits 9/11 as if his and only his view is correct. He removed a well researched, well considered, well sourced commentary published in a reliable source on the grounds that the author was a neo-conservative and immediately launched into an edit war to defend his actions. As far as I know, both liberals and conservatives believe 9/11 conspiracy theorists are whack-jobs. But Cs32en insisted the author was pushing a political agenda. The only agenda I saw in her article was one against conspiracy theorists - the very point of the section in which the source had been included. The bottom line is, unless we want to hand the article over to this one editor, he needs to be topic banned. ] (]) 03:44, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I did not "launch into an edit war". Actually, I did not edit war at all. I have removed the opinion piece in and removed the unnecessary fact tag in (no edits in between), and I haven't edited that section of the article since then. | |||
:I did not argue that the author of the article would push a political agenda ''because she argues against conspiracy theories''. Indeed, many people do this, including many journalists. The author of this opinion piece, however, identifies herself as "the West Coast Representative for ], a project of the foreign policy think tank directed by ], the ]" and, according to her website, is the "founder of the 9/11 Neocons, an online discussion group" (see the author's ). <span style="border:1px solid;color:#000085"> ] ] </span> 16:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::...which does not detract from her work to discredit conspiracy theorists. The fact is, you deleted this reference from a non-political article because of her political affiliations, and that's blatantly wrong. ] (]) 19:02, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
==== |
====Statement by Sean.hoyland==== | ||
It has been several days. Perhaps שלומית ליר could clarify whether their belief about the way Misplaced Pages works turned out to be a true belief or a false belief so that this report can progress. ] (]) 09:07, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
The preceding reads like a content dispute, rather than a pattern of abuse calling for arbitration enforcement. Approaching a polarized topic from a particular angle does not in itself constitute abuse; it is how one behaves while editing and discussing. If Cs32en had been engaging in edit warring, or unreasonable behavior on the talk page, then action might be warranted; but it doesn't look to me like that is occurring. ] (]) 04:57, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:This is not a content dispute. The push for conspiracy theories is a ''clear'' violation of the arbitration guidelines/sanctions. If nothing is done here, then I will report the problem directly to the Committee. –] ] 06:51, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Also, please read the ] that the arbitration entails. This goes beyond any mere content dispute. –] ] 07:14, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
I am interested in the cited above, specifically how this differs from the widely reported situation that resulted in the ']' case that employed Discord (and/or X, I forget) rather than a Google form. Is a consistent decision procedure being used to distinguish between encouraging participation and canvassing/meatpuppetry? I think a lot of people don't know where the line is, assuming there is a line, or at least some kind of fuzzy decision boundary. ] (]) 04:46, 23 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by ClovisPt===== | |||
After reading/re-reading the edits provided above as examples of Cs32en's supposedly problematic editing style, I don't see a clear attempt to push an agenda. Several of these edits are judgment calls about the relative notability of various items in the September 11 attacks article, which is always difficult when one is dealing with the main page of a complicated subject that spans many items. I especially don't see evidence of conspiracy pushing here. Regards, ] (]) 20:55, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Did you read the prior enforcement guidelines? –] ] 00:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::You mean ], right? I did read it. ] (]) 02:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::No, . –] ] 02:38, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::Alright, thanks for that link. ] (]) 00:04, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Vice regent==== | |||
===Result concerning Cs32en=== | |||
I'm satisfied by שלומית ליר's above explanation regarding canvassing. People with bad canvassing intentions don't reveal their identity. ''']''' <sub>(Please ] on reply)</sub> 04:19, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
The submitter has unarchived this section because it was not closed. Unless other admins disagree, I intend to close it without action. The edits at issue are not obviously problematic, at least not to an extent that would merit sanctions. Whether or not they violate ] or ] is principally an editorial matter that needs to be resolved through editorial channels. Like the main arbitration process, arbitration enforcement is not for mediating content disagreements, and this request appears to be mainly a content rather than a conduct issue. If a user were to engage in aggressive fringe POV-pushing over extended periods of time in this area, AE sanctions would be warranted, but the diffs submitted in this request do not convince me that this is the case here. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 09:32, 15 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
<!-- Use {{discussion top}} / {{discussion bottom}} to mark this request as closed.--> | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- Use {{hat|result is ... }} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed if collapsing desired.--> | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*Users are allowed to have a POV - it's a rare user indeed who edits a contentious topic without having some strong opinions about it. For conduct to be actionable at AE it needs to be an actual policy violation. The misleading use of images doesn't rise to the level of AE action in my view, and judging whether an addition like is UNDUE is not within AE's purview, as long as it is supported by the source. ] (]) 23:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. ] (]) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. ] (]) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::The off-wiki canvassing is a problem. It merits a warning at least, I don't know if the formality thereof matters. If there was evidence that שלומית ליר was aware of ] I would consider something more stringent. ] (]) 17:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* While I understand {{u|Vanamonde93}}'s concerns, I think that we are required to assess the totality of the user's contributions. Contentious topic editors are required to uphold NPOV. ] places an obligation to {{xtn|Within contentious topics,… edit carefully and constructively… and… adhere to the ]}}. The linked page provides that {{xtn|Misplaced Pages is written from a neutral point of view… We strive for articles with an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight for their prominence}}. If an editor is ''only'' adding content that significantly favours one or the other side to the conflict, this is incompatible with their contentious topic obligation. That is because an editor making ''only'' one-sided edits will simply not be taking the necessary steps to ensure that the ''whole article'' is written from a neutral point of view. As their number of one-sided edits increases, the likelihood decreases that the editor is ensuring our content is neutral and impartial. Once we reach the point of being sure that they are not attempting to ensure neutrality of content, we can conclude the editor is not meeting their contentious topics obligations and we can issue a sanction. This can only be assessed with hindsight and by looking at the editor's contributions as a whole. ] 20:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:: Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed {{logid|166341641|at 17:33, 8 December 2024}}, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict: | |||
::* ]. | |||
::* ]. | |||
::* ] which was perhaps casting doubt on the relevant section, ''Massacre of pensioners'', and ]. | |||
::* ], therefore giving greater weight to the claims, in a context where the claims were already described at considerable length; ]; ]. | |||
::* ], then ], both to the first line of the article. | |||
::* ] and ]. | |||
::* On the talk pages, there has been a ] although I would be prepared to look past that (it was like meeting like). I am skipping a few further and insignificant talk page comments. | |||
::* There are then edits to ]: ]; ]. At ], there is then an expansion, again of the article lead, ] (]). | |||
:: Assessing the edits as a whole, it is difficult not to conclude that the respondent user is failing to meet their contentious topics obligation to edit neutrally in this topic area. As the number of edits is so far limited, if a sanction is imposed, it could justifiably be light-touch. ] 20:34, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::: {{re|xDanielx}} Thanks for commenting. Most of the edits do not have a neutral, encyclopedic POV. There is an effort to influence our articles away from neutrally describing the subject without taking sides, contrary to ]. Even if each edit in isolation is insufficient for sanctioning, taken ''as a whole'' the edits show an inability or unwillingness to edit neutrally. One non-neutral edit shouldn't be sanctioned; twenty is a different story. This is not about the ''percentage'' of biased edits but about the weight or amount of them. Therefore, the assessment wouldn't really change even had the editor made some 'neutral' edits along the way. I'm happy to concede that editors cannot be compelled to balance edits of one bias with edits of another, but I don't think that comes into it. In a nutshell, this is about ]. ] 08:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*The offwiki canvassing is a problem...{{u|שלומית ליר}}, you're fairly inexperienced here. Were you aware ] is not allowed? ] (]) 12:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:For transparency, שלומית ליר reached out to me, and I explained multiple policy and advised her to go ahead and respond here without waiting for individual feedback from her email to arbcom, which may or may not happen. ] (]) 22:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I take it that per {{u|Barkeep49}}'s brief oversighting of potentially-sensitive content in this report (]), and then restoration of the same (]), concerns of outing have been investigated and the report can proceed on its merits? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 19:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:That's correct. I got a request, I didn't really feel it was OUTING, but as I indicated in my edit summary OS is a tool of first resort. I consulted with the OS listserv and received some responses quickly agreeing with me and so I unsuppressed and restored the material. ] (]) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*It's not for AE to decide content disputes, and that's mostly what this looks like. We can handle things like flagrant misrepresentation of sources, but how ''best'' to represent them is a matter for consensus discussion, not us to decide here. The canvassing was a cause for concern, but it looks like it was rather unintended and had little if any actual effect, and they've agreed to stop that going forward. (Note that doesn't mean anyone must stop criticizing Misplaced Pages or what happens on it; do all of that you like. Just don't encourage people to take particular actions based on that.) I don't see any further action as necessary at this point. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 16:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:+1 ] (]) 18:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I'm not satisfied with שלומית ליר's please of good faith. I think that the call for "interference" on Twitter (not even a week ago!) is a real concern in light of the standards being established by PIA5. I'm also concerned about the timeline of their knowledge of relevant CTOP sanctions. They were warned about PIA in April 2023 (by me, apparently). They should have been familiar with canvassing rules from the moment they got that warning to be on their best behavior. Not only that, but perusing their edit history, I see that there are several edits that are PIA violations prior to reaching XC on December 8 (e.g. ], although there's clearly many others in their edit history). In sum, I see no reason to believe the narrative of good faith presented here by them in light of the available evidence and do believe that we should consider at the minimum a logged warning. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 20:15, 23 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I would be okay with a logged warning for canvassing, which remains the most concerning behavior to me. I find it difficult to see my way to penalizing violations of the XC restriction after the editor has already reached XC status without a clear finding of gaming XC status, and I don't see that here. ] (]) 20:41, 23 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I wouldn't call it gaming, I think it's a pattern of intentional defiance of community rules, which in turn makes the otherwise rather exemplary defense written here by them less than convincing. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 21:15, 23 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==Luganchanka== | |||
== ] == | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
; User requesting enforcement : ] | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Hemiauchenia}} 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks| |
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Luganchanka}}<p>{{ds/log|Luganchanka}}</p> | ||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
;Sanction or remedy that this user violated : ] ] (User has edit-warred, deleted sourced material, and made repeated accusations of anti-German "racism") | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
* Wispanow reverts ], edit summary: "Undid revision 347913307 by Cirt (talk) This article is based on racism. And Scientology-Believers can source every racism. Removing this improves." Uncivil. Deleting sourced material. Inserting unsourced material. Cirt's edit was marked a "vandalism revert". | |||
* Wispanow reverts ], edit summary: "Jayen466 is accused of writing an aggressive, highly biased text leading to a racist viewpoint. I therefore claimed to block him from any Scientology-text with relation to Germany. And stop reverting." As before. | |||
* Personal accusation of racism: "The whole article is racism. There is nearly nothing giving a neutral point of view. And ] is by far the main reason ... US and British citizens and even newspapers easily believe and publish any mendacious Germany-Harassment." Wispanow includes this link in his post to make his point. Uncivil. | |||
* Failure to comply with ]. | |||
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to: | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
* Warned by ] for removing sourced material. | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
* Final warning by ]. | |||
# Reversion to version of article where the article says "He is a child sex offender" in the second sentence despite consensus at BLPN discussion that this is problematic because Ritter never actually interacted with a real child. | |||
* Comments by ] and ]. | |||
*Previously for removal of sourced material at ] by ], by ]. | |||
* Warned by Sandstein a few hours after the unblock, with specific reference to ]. | |||
* Warned by John Carter not to edit-war to add unreliable sources to the article, and not to make personal comments. | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
;Enforcement action requested | |||
BLP CTOP warning given | |||
*Topic ban per ]. No evidence of any desire to contribute constructively. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | ; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | ||
At BLPN, there has been consensus that the version of the article describing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the second sentence of the article is problematic, as he did not actually have sexual contact with a child, only a police officer impersonating one. ]. Luganchanka has been persistently edit warring against this apparent consensus. For which he has been warned by {{Ping|NatGertler}} , which he subequently blanked There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article going back to at least August ], but Luganchanka persistently cites a "consensus" for its inclusion that as far as I can tell does not seem to exist, with Luganchanka aggressively editing to enforce its inclusion. ] (]) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: Luganchanka's response is disingenuous and misleading. Look at the ] discussion I linked above. Nobody other than Luganchanka thinks that Ritter should be described as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article. The dispute isn't about whether or not the convictions should be mentioned in the lead at all or not, it's specifically about the use of the phrase "child sex offender", and there is no consensus to include that as far as I can tell, despite Luganchanka's vociferous claims to the contrary. ] (]) 20:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:: RfC opened ]. ] (]) 16:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. --> | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
===Discussion concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
Please note that {{article|Scientology in Germany}}, an article for which I have been the main contributor, is currently classified as a ]. | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
*It recently underwent lengthy Peer Review in preparation for FA candidacy. Three reviewers commented. | |||
*Feedback at Peer Review was that the article is, if anything, slanted in Germany's favor. See ]. I have not done any significant work on the article since the Peer Review. | |||
*Following Wispanow's reverts of two different editors, deleting sourced material, the article is now locked for two weeks. (Wispanow made two reverts, Cirt and I made one revert each. The first edit that Cirt reverted was made by a German IP.) | |||
For reference, Wispanow has made similar and equally far-fetched accusations of anti-German racism in other contexts: | |||
* that a ], an in the ], should not be believed because it contains "a lot of '''unproven, aggressive, prejudicing and even racist statements'''" (emphasis in original). "The main thing i personally worry about is that such an unreal, unscientific, racist text could be believed by americans. Imho Jimbo had founded Misplaced Pages to aid in that." Note that the German Law Journal has been by the German Minister of Justice, Brigitte Zypries, for being an "ambassador of German law". | |||
* the Human Rights Reports issued by the United States Department of State represent "racist truth". | |||
Note: This thread has been moved here from . --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 19:21, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
:User . --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 19:28, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning Wispanow=== | |||
====Statement by Wispanow==== | |||
Read the accusations and preparing an answer. ] (]) 00:16, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
I am sorry but i have a lot of work to do this week. Any '''detailed answer''' takes probably until sunday. | |||
In the meantime these statements: | |||
'''1. <big>Stating reality in an appropriate manner is the main thing ANY encyclopedia and the discussion about it is for.</big> Leaves to prove what is reality and appropriate.''' | |||
2. I propose to close this case, because this is not the optimum place to discuss if the article represents reality or a wrong or even racist viewpoint. And the adequacy depends on that, probably insulting a whole nation with over 80 million people. | |||
3. Although it is clear that it offends especially Jayen466, it is not my intention and i have not done it, excluding my call to topic ban Jayen466 and stating reasons. Although this may be unpleasant to discuss for Jayen466, please recognize that it is even more unpleasant and insulting for me being wrongly accused. But it is necessary in such a procedure, as it was before for Jayen466 of being accused for providing a biased viewpoint of Scientology. | |||
4. I am quite sure that the discussion will soon come to results and to my attempt to ban Jayen466 from Scientology topics (probably only with relation to Germany) '''as it was done before'''. | |||
5. If i am wrong in main parts, i promise to leave any Scientology related topic. And apologize, begging for forgiveness. | |||
In the meantime i am sorry for any use of upsetting but appropriate words. | |||
Until now i haven't time to write a detailed answer, but can quickly state some facts. | |||
=====Facts===== | |||
=====Sources with unbalanced, biased or wrong statements or viewpoints or wrongly cited===== | |||
#Consider that sources may not reflect reality. | |||
#Consider that anything i remember in this article about the recognition of Scientology and nearly anything about the violation of human rights in Germany is wrong. Translation: | |||
I accuse mainly time.com and partly bbc.co.uk (and others) for stating an unbalanced, wrong and/or even racist viewpoint of Germany and german people. Therefore it will not help adding additional sources just mentioning the same viewpoint, but '''<big>check if its real or wrong or racist.</big>''' | |||
In case of human rights, this means mainly court judgments or VERY difficult to achieve balanced view of actions happened. | |||
Listed sources are insufficient; search for more. | |||
=====My definition of racism against Germany and German people is based on ]===== | |||
:The UN does not define "racism", however it does define "racial discrimination": according to the ] ], | |||
::<blockquote>''the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on ], colour, ], or national or ] origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of ] and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.''<ref>, NEW YORK 7 March 1966</ref> | |||
</blockquote> | |||
:This definition does not make any difference between prosecutions based on ] and ], in part because the distinction between the two remains debatable among ].<ref>A. Metraux (1950) "United nations Economic and Security Council Statement by Experts on Problems of Race" in ''American Anthropologist 53(1): 142-145)</ref> | |||
:According to British law, ''racial group'' means "any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin".<ref></ref> | |||
Leaves to define discrimination: | |||
:The ] uses the definition of racial discrimination laid out in the '']'', adopted in 1966: | |||
::<blockquote>''...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.''(Part 1 of Article 1 of the U.N. International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination)<ref> , '']'', 1966</ref> | |||
</blockquote> | |||
I prefer to add two more points: | |||
#Because we are not perfect and it may offend somebody, use of the term "racism" needs a considerably amount of discrimination | |||
#Statements have to differ from reality or include meanings that differ from reality. | |||
To be proven. | |||
If you need more to close this case without punishment or topic ban, i hope i can deliver sunday. ] (]) 14:56, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Luganchanka==== | |||
The intro on the ] page had remained largely the same for several months, as you will see on the talkpage it is an intro approved, and reverted to, by multiple senior editors. There has been a recent flurry of activity / edits. While I ], it does look like those edits are attempting to downplay / whitewash Ritter's sexual offence conviction(s). I have not been 'aggressive' at all, rather I have simply referred contentious edits to the talkpage to build consensus, attempting to do my duty as a good Misplaced Pages editor.] (]) 20:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Thank you very much for your comments. Due to lack of time today i prepare an quick answer tomorrow. More details Sunday. Please notice that it takes '''a lot of effort and time''' because i clearly stated that MAIN PARTS of the article are inappropriate, unbalanced, biased or wrong. It is time enough to discuss, if you want to make it here, and the article is editprotected. ] (]) 15:47, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
Please see the ], where there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior[REDACTED] editors, that Ritter's sexual offence conviction should be included in the lead to the article. My edits have simply been aimed at ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article.] (]) 20:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: Thank you to @] and @] for your feedback. If you see the ], discussions - {{tq|14 August - Vandalism by removing all reference entirely to Ritter being a "Convicted Sex Offender"}} and {{tq|First sentence}}. The latter discussion ended on 26th September, and resulted in the intro we had until a flurry of edits the other day, trying to move information on Ritter's sexual offence conviction, downplay it, whitewash it etc. My edits were aimed at restoring the edit reached by consensus, which had been in place for several months until the recent raft of edits with the clear aim of moving / downplaying Ritter's sexual offence conviction.] (]) 06:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Strong and unbalanced accusations of Jayen466: Please wait for a detailed answer until sunday. In the meantime: | |||
:: Thank you for this ], I really do appreciate your feedback and advice here!!] (]) 16:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC) <small>(moved from ] — ] <sub>]</sub> 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC))</small> | |||
I accused Jayen466 first writing a biased, unbalanced viewpoint which can be seen as containing a racist view. Thats what i am accused here. And i claimed a '''topic-ban for Jayen466''' first. If i am topic-banned, he increases his chances not to be topic-banned. '''<big>Please consider therefore that Jayen466 may be biased in this case!</big>''' | |||
:: As per ]'s comments: | |||
Details, more facts and why it is appropriate sunday. In the meantime consider his accusations as unbalanced. ] (]) 17:21, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{tq|"Unfazed by "Emily's" age, Ritter asked "Emily," "you want to see it finish?" Ritter then turned on the webcam and ejaculated in front of the camera for "Emily." Detective Venneman then notified Ritter of his undercover status and the undercover operation and directed Ritter to call the police station."}} | |||
https://casetext.com/case/ritter-v-tuttle | |||
] (]) 18:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I agree absolutely to discuss, and if moderated this can be improved. Thank you very much. That was the main thing i wanted. | |||
:In contrary to Jayen466 (update: he now wants to discuss too), i have nothing against it discussing with him. We will see, if he is able to learn. | |||
:The first things i will do is to expand the statements i made, giving a rough overview of human rights in Germany and related facts. Than its time to prove that some sources using balanced, wrong or even mendacious statements and why Germans can valuate this viewpoint as racism. Although german politicians like to give statements which can be seen as a violation of human rights, it is necessary to show why some of them are just screaming little monkeys (and money-grabbing), unimportant and nearly powerless in this case, just dancing to the music the courts play in the background. After that, giving a lot of primary sources which will outperform unreasonable statements in secondary sources, its time to edit the article, which then can be quick by just listing my primary sources and reasons. Again, thank you. ] (]) 14:46, 14 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by NatGertler==== | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning Wispanow==== | |||
Editor's edits today focused on trying to main a negative descriptor of what subject believed, despite it not being in the three sources that were listed (nor in the old version they ultimately reverted to.) Efforts were first trying to simply restate the claim, then trying to source it to an opinion piece (problem) from the Washington Examiner (also a bit of a problem, per ]), then trying to state as a fact what had merely been stated in a non-prime article as an accusation. BLP concern was pointed out repeatedly via edit summary and on Talk page. Removal of unsourced contentious BLP claims and even false claims is not "whitewashing" despite how editor wishes to depict it, it is in accord with our practices. -- ] (]) 21:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
This is hard to measure. Hot button words such as "racist" and "cult" are seldom appropriate and require careful contextualization in the few instances where no calmer substitute is available. Winspanow needs a caution in that regard. Regarding the rest, it would be useful if someone with good familiarity in the subject weighed in because what Winspanow appears to be asserting is that the article violates ]. In the context of ] it can be appropriate to remove reliably sourced information so that one section or topic or POV does not unduly dominate an article. I don't know this subject well enough to determine whether the undue weight clause properly applies. Would be more inclined to read Jayen466's report at face value if it had also disclosed that the Scientology decision passed a finding of fact that he had been "edit-warring apparently to advance an agenda", and had page banned Jayen466 from the biography of a prominent critic of new religious movements: see ], ]. Subsequently Jayen466 has contributed quality content on related material, so possibly his response is a fair one. Yet Wispanow has edited Misplaced Pages since 2007 without any blocks at all except for the brief recent one which was overturned procedurally. Is this primarily a content dispute? Could a content RfC or mediation be tried before invoking discretionary sanctions? <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 22:37, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for putting me in the invidious position of having to point out that you only quoted one-half of that arbcom finding of fact. The other half was, "Jayen466 has made many constructive edits in the Scientology topic". You have an editor here in Wispanow who is not bringing sources to the table, says the ] does not qualify as a reliable source (because it is anti-German and racist), and says the US Department of States Human Rights Reports are racist, as well. You want me to go to mediation with such an editor? Please have a look at ], have a look at the article history, and have a look at the article's recent ]. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 22:58, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Yes; it speaks more strongly in your favor to mention the quality content since you hadn't written any GAs yet when that case decision was finalized. On the whole, content RfC has a better track record than mediation at resolving content disputes. We're in agreement that the word "racist" is unhelpful: it means different things to different people and tends to shut down discussion. Yet it seems premature to seek a topic ban on an editor of three years' good standing. 23:37, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::When I first saw this AE request, I wondered if Wispanow might be inexperienced and just need to calm his rhetorical excesses about such terms as 'racism.' I also perceived that there could be a language barrier. But a look at ] shows that he was making inappropriate edits to the article without proper sources as long ago as February 2009. In the above thread, Jayen466 took the time to explain Misplaced Pages policies to him very thoroughly in German. Though his edits are POV, they don't seem like those of a well-organized partisan. Some of his edits are . (After you think about the racism charge in the edit summary, try to figure out why he is also removing a source, and try to determine if his changes to the article text make any sense at all). Perhaps he feels a need to defend the honor of Germany by keeping things out of the ] article that sound too harsh to him. The above mention of ] is not without reason. A topic ban from ] would not (in my opinion) cause the loss of meaningful future contributions to this article. Wispanow has contributed elsewhere, for instance at ], without incident and without any obvious lapses in logic. ] (]) 00:16, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::Wispanow engaged in similar disruption at another Scientology/Germany article, , ], , December last. He , while leaving the source reference unchanged. The was ''published by the Scientific Services Division of the German Parliament''. As in this case, he edit-warred against two editors (John Carter and me), implementing a wording that directly contradicted the cited source. The result was that an admin stepped in and locked the article (in Wispanow's version) for a fortnight, just as has just happened here. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 00:49, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::Thanks to EdJohnston for the evaluation. Photography is a subject that's much more familiar to me than Scientology; Winspanow's edits seem reasonable there. Probably the only other useful thing I could add to this discussion regards German sourcing. Jayen, I'm rusty in that language but used to be fluent. You say that Winspanow altered an article statement without changing a citation. If you believe he has actually misrepresented a German language source, feel free to give an example or two. I could give it a look or possibly if you prefer we could locate a native speaker. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 04:57, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::Dear Durova, I have just given such an example in the post directly above yours. was Wispanow's edit. is the cited source. I am sure your German will be adequate. At the top of page 2 the cited source says, "Umstritten ist, ob es sich bei den scientologischen Lehren um Glauben, Religion bzw. Weltanschauung handelt. Und fraglich ist, ob die Scientology-Lehren von der Organisation nur als Vorwand für eine ausschließlich wirtschaftliche Zielsetzung benutzt werden. Dies würde nach überwiegender Auffassung zum Ausschluss des Schutzes durch Art. 4 GG führen." ("What is disputed is whether the scientological teachings represent a belief, religion or worldview. And the question is whether Scientology's teachings are only used by the organisation as a pretext for an exclusively economical aim. According to majority legal opinion, this would result in the exclusion of protection by Article 4 of the Grundgesetz (German Constitution)." | |||
::::::Wispanow's edit made it say the exact opposite: that Scientology's protection under Article 4 was guaranteed in any case. It is not. When questioned about the edit, he said, ]! The admin who'd locked the article refused to accede to John Carter's and my |editprotected request]]. There was no project benefit whatsoever, except that our article was wrong on that point for two weeks. We have the exact same position now, where the current article wording has been to claim, for example, that "the courts" (rather than the German government) published information leaflets on Scientology. There is a difference between "the courts" and "the government", but that difference appears to escape ]. Yet his version is what around 100 people will be reading today and every day for the next two weeks, while we are here talking about Godot. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 05:18, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::Another sentence Wispanow is the one referring to "hysteria": "German fears and concerns about new religious movements reached a level resembling hysteria in the mid-nineties, becoming focused mainly on the Church of Scientology." There are three separate sources that emphatically use the word "hysteria" in this precise context. , available in google books, points out that this was also the word the Lutheran churches (Fincke and Nüchtern are from the Evangelische Zentralstelle für Weltanschauungsfragen, i.e. the Lutherans' apologetics department) used to describe the situation. I have no reason to believe Wispanow bothered to check any of these sources. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 05:43, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Thank you for the swift followup, Jayen. I'll have a look at this now. It'll either be the last post for the evening or the first for tomorrow. See below: you were right about a source last year February. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 05:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Thanks for looking into it. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 05:58, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Yes, checking the PDF about the court case: that text is right at the top of page two. Jayen's translation is correct. The alteration misrepresented the source, and what's especially strange is that although the edit summary accused the Misplaced Pages article of being too pro-Scientology, the alteration not only contradicted the source but made the text more pro-Scientology: the article had said that Scientology could be exempted from legal religious protection if its ideology could be proven to be a pretext for commercial activity; the edit altered the Misplaced Pages article to assert that Scientology definitely would be protected as a religion under German law, regardless of that. Jayen's summary was an accurate paraphrase and there isn't any way to justify that edit without locating a different source. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 06:02, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Sandstein===== | |||
Could you please format this request in the standard format ({{tl|Sanction enforcement request}})? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 19:38, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I'll add the relevant subheadings. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 19:40, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Thanks. Also, the remedy you cite, "Editing environment (editors cautioned)", appears to be a caution and as such not directly enforceable; it has no corresponding enforcement provision. Could you please cite an enforceable remedy that you think might apply here? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 19:56, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::The remedy is cited under "action requested", i.e. ]: "Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, ban any editor from editing within the Scientology topic". I know you unblocked him once before, but do you see any desire on his part to contribute meaningfully? And do you endorse his accusations of racism levelled at the US State Department, the German Law Journal, and me personally? I am German myself. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 20:05, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::I've added ]. Point C applies. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 20:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::Thanks. I am not amused, however, that you accuse me of endorsing racism of any sort and will not continue evaluating this request. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 20:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::You haven't been accused of endorsing racism. Please refactor your uncivil accusation and exercise better judgment in future. Your behavior is unacceptable and quite nasty. Please cease these uncivil, antagonistic and belligerent statements and actions. ] (]) 20:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::That is fine, Sandstein. For the record though, I did not accuse you of endorsing racism. I asked you whether you endorsed ''Wispanow's accusation'' that the US State Department, the German Law Journal, and I personally are anti-German racists. Personally, I think these accusations are quite beyond the pale, and I am surprised that you did not find it in you to condemn them when asked about them. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 21:03, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::Yes, sorry, I misread that. I am also not amused of being charged with endorsing ''accusations'' of racism, especially accusations that I have not even read yet, let alone commented on. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 21:26, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::::For the record, I did not charge you with endorsing accusations of racism either. I asked you your opinion about these accusations. I assumed you would read them before replying. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 22:45, 8 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
==== |
====Statement by (username)==== | ||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
*Wispanow has made 54 edits to ], amounting to an involvement of 5.8% - this is the second largest involvement after Jayen466 (686 edits -73.8%). | |||
*The article was failed as a GA on 17 Feb 2009 due to POV issues. It passed as a GA in November. | |||
*Wispanow's first edit was on 21 February 2009. Two of the links are dead, but the one that is still live checks out. The edit appears to be constructive, and is cited. That first edit was reversed two days later by Jayen466 with and refers to a talkpage discussion that I have not yet found. | |||
*Also on 21 Feb Wispanow removed some text with with the rationale that the source had been misread. There was a in which Jayen466 explained how the source had been read, and the text was restored. | |||
*There follow in Feb 2009 a series of tags, edits and discussions involving Wispanow, in which they are expressing concerns about potential bias in the article. Wispanow appears concerned that the article is describing a total anti-scientology stance in Germany which Wispanow feels is not balanced by information regarding either pro or neutral scientology attitudes in Germany. Jayen466 invited Wispanow to supply reliable sources to support Germany having positive attitudes towards Scientology. | |||
*Wispanow occasionally edited the article in line with the concerns raised. Following , Wispanow was given a block warning by Moni3 - . Wispanow's involvement became quite minimal, but still raised POV concerns. Placing got Wispanow from Moni3. Wispanow added some more tags - - and gave reasons on the talkpage for their actions - . Moni3, Jayen466 and John Carter responded to Wispanow's concerns, Jayen466 explaining that "If it is accurate and sourcable, then it doesn't violate neutrality." Wispanow was then blocked by moni3 and unblocked by Sandstein - . | |||
*Wispanow made one more edit in , then nothing more until in the past few days which prompted a lock down of the article and this Arb request. | |||
*From these observations I would say that Wispanow has concerns about the POV of the article and is frustrated at developments. Wispanow has used inappropriate wording in edit summaries and in talkpage comments. Wispanow has not made best use of negotiation tactics, or of the resources available on Misplaced Pages for inexperienced editors who are concerned about content - such as ] or ]. While editors have been civilly and calmly engaging with Wispanow, there has perhaps not been enough assistance offered to Wispanow, or to direct Wispanow to areas such as ] or ]. Wispanow has perhaps been alienated and dismissed, and then blocked, which may have increased that person's feelings of frustration. | |||
*I do not know enough about the issues to judge how appropriate are Wispanow's concerns, though I would share Jayen466's view that appropriate sources are the best way forward. | |||
*I feel that while Wispanow has been unwise in the use of language, and slightly difficult, Wispanow has not been disruptive enough for a topic ban. | |||
*I would suggest, time-consuming though it may be, that a moderated discussion between Wispanow and Jayen466 may be of more benefit to future harmony, and the development of the article, than a topic ban. I would be willing to moderate the discussion if both parties are willing. <span style="border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;">''']''' *]</span> 01:33, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
**Thanks. I appreciate your goodwill and your kind offer. Two small corrections: | |||
**#The first edit by Wispanow cited by you above duplicated content and sources that were . (One of the sources may have been new.) | |||
**#The quote "If it is accurate and sourcable, then it doesn't violate neutrality." was by John Carter rather than myself. | |||
**I understand what you are saying about Wispanow's editing experience. However, I do not have unlimited time at my disposal, and certainly no time to waste. I will not enter mediated discussions with Wispanow until he: | |||
**#apologises for his comments, | |||
**#acknowledges that he cannot that the ] is a racist and unreliable source and expect to be taken seriously here, and | |||
**#gives clear signs of understanding that the way he and ] is absolutely unacceptable for content work. | |||
**I am afraid I have to insist on some minimum standards of ability; I do have a day job, and the amount of time I have spent on this is already out of all proportion to any benefit to this project. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 03:47, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
***Have checked out one of the instances SilkTork has raised. Jayen's translation is correct regarding the text ''Kritik an Filmen von bekennenden Scientologen, wie Cruise und John Travolta, und an Auftritten des Jazz-Musikers Chick Korea, ebenfalls Scientology-Anhänger, ist in Deutschland nicht neu: 1996 hatte die Junge Union zum Boykott gegen den Thriller "Mission: Impossible" mit Cruise als Hauptdarsteller aufgerufen.'' For non-German speakers this is a bit hard to confirm: Google Translate didn't parse the page and Yahoo's Babel Fish didn't handle the passage well. The en:wiki article ] jibes with Jayen's statement. For a single instance over a year ago I can extend good faith (perhaps the editor skimmed and missed that passage). It's a bit worrisome that he didn't follow up in agreement after Jayen's explanation at the talk page. If other instances like this form a pattern, though, then I would endorse Jayen's request. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 05:23, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
****Thanks. I've added two more above, under your earlier post. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 05:57, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*****Changing "courts backed the publication" to "courts published" is less serious but unhelpful. What was the other thing you wanted me to look at, exactly? <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 06:08, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
******The thing about "hysteria", above, and about how this came to focus on Scientology in the late nineties. It was sourced. He took it out, leaving the sources in place. Although it is not such a big deal. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 06:17, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*******(ec) The last edit regarding "hysteria" could be reasonable, since the edit changed the text to a shorter summary. The difference in emphasis and POV is tangible and I don't know which version is more balanced. That particular alteration didn't make the citation inaccurate, though. These two more recent examples don't carry the weight of the first two I read (both of which were quite stark). But for someone to come in and make those two stark examples, then defend one of them at talk with claims of being a native speaker, is not acceptable. Am curious what Wispanow's response here will be, because as of this juncture it looks like a final warning would be appropriate. German speakers are not too hard to find; please don't wait a year, Jayen, if this occurs again. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 06:19, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} | |||
I'll know where to go next time. ;) is another Wispanow edit from earlier on. | |||
*In that diff, Wispanow rewrote a sentence as follows: "Between 2007 and 2008, there was a discussion to ban Scientology in Germany which was ''within 3 days considered senseless and quickly'' dropped because insufficient evidence of unconstitutional activity was found by German ].<nowiki>{{Lopsided}}"</nowiki> The "within 3 days" he inserted is unsourced and wrong. It took a year, from to . And he added a "lopsided" tag to his own sentence. | |||
*Under "Legal status", he inserted "Its believers enjoy full protection of the german constitution. Because Scientology or its members or believers did not call the courts, the actual status wether the organisation is a religious organisation or a commercial enterprise and the not directly according tax-exemption is unresolved." No new source is cited to verify that. It is in fact completely made up, and still cites the same 2-page pdf from the German Parliament, which, as you've already verified, says something quite different. | |||
*Further down in the US criticism section, the article cites ] saying in the Washington Post, "Scientology might be one weird religion, but the German reaction to it is weirder still – not to mention disturbing." This is cited to both the Washington Post and a German scholar, Schön, who to illustrate American opinion, affirming the notability of the quote. Wispanow adds <nowiki>{{POV-statement}}</nowiki>. Of course it is a POV statement – that was the point, to illustrate the American POV. Almost all the tags he placed in that edit are equally unfathomable. For example, "<nowiki>{{verify credibility}}{{Lopsided}}</nowiki>" for a poll in '']'' saying that 67% of Germans are in favour of banning Scientology. An opinion poll in ''Der Spiegel'' lacks credibility and is lopsided? And there is a "fact" tag for "Scientology is generally viewed with more suspicion in Europe," when of the cited article says: "Europeans in general bear more suspicion toward Scientology than Americans do, but Germans are considered particularly antagonistic". Whatever it is he was doing there, it was not encyclopedia writing. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 08:26, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*Deletions of sourced material: --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 09:02, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
::*Two more observations: | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
::**Browsing through Wispanow's edit history, it appears that Wispanow makes positive contributions, and while at times a bit brusque, does work through issues on talkpages, such as on ]. | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
::**Doing some quick and dirty research into Scientology in Germany I found these sources: , , , , , , , , , , , which all support the approach taken by Jayen466 in building the article. From from I have found I feel that it is clear that Jayen466 has taken pains to research carefully in order to build a neutral article on a difficult subject, and has consulted with the community via GA reviews and a Peer Review to ensure that the article is going in the right direction. | |||
*<!-- | |||
::*Comment: Articles on contentious topics will attract challenges to POV. It would be inappropriate to suppress all such challenges, and is against the spirit of Misplaced Pages. However, we do have sanctions to use when challenges get out of hand and disrupt the development of an article. When to employ those sanctions will always be a question of judgement. Wispanow has made several strong challenges on the talkpage, and in the article itself, which can be tiresome, and having been there myself more than once I do sympathise with an editor having to deal with challenges. However, in my experience, such challenges can harden an article and make it better, and I note that Moni3 took some of Wispanow's content and incorporated it into a new lead that Jayen466 found acceptable. Wispanow has been willing to engage in discussion, albeit in a sometimes hostile manner, and has left the article alone for many months. Given the circumstances I feel that sanctions at this point would be inappropriate, and I would still urge that the parties attempt to work together. <span style="border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;">''']''' *]</span> 12:37, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
--> | |||
:::*You are a kind person. :) I don't rule out working with Wispanow. Anyway, per ARBSCI he is entitled to one warning before any sanctions are pronounced. BUT I will note here that I tried this. When I approached him in a friendly manner last time, and addressed him in German on his talk page, seeing that the language barrier was getting in the way, his was to ask me where exactly I lived and whether I was a Scientologist, followed by reams of ] with lots of ALLCAPS. He's implied I'm a Scientologist in multiple edit summaries since. I cannot be expected to start at ABC with every angry German editor, explaining the most basic aspects of sourcing, and let myself be called names. Right now I have a ] to finish, one of my ] is undergoing GA review, I've promised to help Auntieruth55 get ] ready for FAC, having shelled out $100 for a specialist source, and I'm supposed to finish copyediting ] in preparation for ACR, as well as respond to a few other requests on my talk page. At the same time, I have two work deadlines for tomorrow, another two for the end of the week, a book to finish proofreading for a scholar friend, and I have slept three hours. Talking to Wispanow and taking further insults from him, combined with insinuations that I am a Scientologist, is not high on my list of priorities right now, nor is explaining to him why is ]. I would like him warned, per ], and if you want to mediate discussions between him and me some time next week, then fine. But I will not put up with any further abuse either of me personally, or of the article. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 16:44, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:@]: whether you're correct or not, you were edit warring. I believe an indef block from the article and/or a temporary site block would be an appropriate sanction here. ] (]/]) 20:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::*The newest posts go beyond straightforward translation. A note to non-German speakers: '']'' is a newsmagazine that has a better reputation than any comparable English language newsmagazine; imagine a much thicker version of ''Newsweek'' with content equivalent to the national edition of ''The New York Times''. If there's a reason a ''Spiegel'' poll lacks credibility it really ought to be specified on the article talk page. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 17:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::I've blocked the user for 48h for violating 3RR based on the report at ].--] (]) 23:56, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::**Just for reference, is a 1997 ''Time'' Magazine article reporting 70% support for a ban. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 18:26, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
* @], edit-warring ''to remove'' negative content at a BLP is an exemption to 3RR. I see that NatGertler mentioned this in their edit summaries and at talk. As voorts points out, it doesn't matter whether you're right when you're reverting an edit that is being claimed as an exemption, even if you believe ]whiyou are "ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article". The solution is to go to talk, discuss, and get consensus. If you'd like to respond, ping me to your response at your talk and I'll post it here. ] (]) 16:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Regarding the "read the constitution" edit summary, the Basic Law of Germany does guarantee freedom of religion. But one can't open a sports bar and get tax exempt status by naming it Temple of Bacchus. That's a very simple analogy for the issue Winspanow overlooked in the recent German court case about Scientology. The ''Time'' article uses hot button terms ("Nazi" and "fascist"), and the general background is that German law and society are very concerned about implementing safeguards that their democracy didn't have in the 1920s: a minor fringe party came to power with disastrous results. Later generations live in the shadow of that. Hushed silence falls over a room when certain subjects arise, even obliquely, in a way I've observed in the English speaking world only when someone mentions "KKK" below the Mason-Dixon line. It looks like the subject of Scientology somehow touched the third rail in Germany where anti-fascist arguments exist both for and against its acceptance. Perhaps that's a cultural divide here? The two instances of misused sourcing look like skimming and seeing red rather than deliberate misattribution. Without underplaying the seriousness of that or the difficulty of collaborating with someone who's seeing red, a ''little'' latitude may be appropriate: a straightforward communication about what the expectations are here and no nonsense if the problem continues. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 19:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*:@], if you really believe those two sections -- senior editors, indeed, ] was between someone with 13 edits and somcoen who wasn't ECR, for heaven's sake -- somehow prove consensus was strong, and you think that means you can ignore all the later ones -- at one of which you didn't even respond to a ping, where people were objecting -- then this is maybe looking like a ] issue. | |||
::::::Durova has described a key aspect of the cultural divide very well here. It is a point that the article is trying to get across as well, and which it touches upon several times. Another aspect is a very differently situated "comfort zone" between the two poles of individual rights vs. collective rights, with the States emphasising the former, and Germany emphasising the latter (i.e. focusing more on individual ''duties'', or protecting the community from the dangerous individual). A third difference is the centuries-long existence of two main state churches in Germany, compared to much more fragmented religious demographics in the States. (Those latter two points still need to be brought out more in the article; I've acquired a useful journal article that addresses this.) --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 02:48, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*:But even if you ''had'' been somehow editing to support a consensus you believed was settled, you cannot edit-war contentious material into a BLP when others are objecting to it. The solution, always, is to go to talk, discuss, and reconfirm consensus. There is zero urgency to have this information in the article. Including something negative in a BLP is not something you should ''ever'' edit war over. ] (]) 18:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*SilkTork, you referred above to of mine, mentioning in the edit summary a talk page discussion you had been unable to find. This contains the relevant talk page discussions. I proposed returning to the Feb 19 version on the talk page at 00:30, 23 February 2009 (UTC), and the GA reviewer replied at 01:21, 23 February 2009 (UTC), ''The unreliable sources need to be removed, as well as any information that they are sourcing that is not sopported by other sources. I agree if the "originals" can be found, that would be fine. The SP Times article seem good. It seems to mostly quote what the German official said, as I recall, without commenting on the veracity of much of it. I have had no problem with your judgment nor your willingness to cooperate with other editors, so I trust you judgment in restoring the articles sources to a reliable condition.'' I made the edit at 13:26, 23 February 2009. In case you were wondering, I restored the deleted information about Antje Victore's allegedly fraudulent asylum case later that same day, in , but now sourced wholly to ]. The GA reviewer had objected to the source whyaretheydead.net, which had been inserted by an IP in edit. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 00:33, 14 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*Luganchanka's reading of the state of consensus on the talk page as supporting their edits is so far off base that it borders on being a CIR issue if it's sincere. Indef block from ] seems appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 22:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to ] isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., ''that'' would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of {{tq|whitewash}} before writing this off as time-served. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — ] <sub>]</sub> 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make ]. The cited BBC source does not state {{tq| masturbated and ejaculated on camera}}, saying only {{tq|graphic sex act}}. As written, this is essentially another BLP violation, building a case that a ban from this topic is needed. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by ''New York Post'', a generally unreliable source. {{u|Luganchanka}}, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::::The detail is in the record of ''Ritter v. Tuttle'' (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — ] <sub>]</sub> 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::Seeing ] here and ], ] at ], I see no comprehension of the use of primary vs. secondary sources, nor any reflection of their past errors in engaging with this topic. I believe that a block from the page is needed to prevent further BLP violations as they have shown no understanding of the relevant policies even after being given several warnings, reminders and opportunities to revise their position. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 18:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::{{yo|Luganchanka}} | |||
*:::::::] calls upon users to {{tq|{{strong|{{em|not}}}} use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person}}. There are some narrow exceptions (when {{tq|primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it {{em|may}} be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source}}), but adding material to the article not found in reliable secondary sources is... suboptimal ''at best'' under our ]. | |||
*:::::::— ] <sub>]</sub> 02:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*{{yo|Luganchanka}} Would you please provide a direct link to the talk page section you are referring to when you say {{tq|there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior[REDACTED] editors}} regarding the lead? — ] <sub>]</sub> 01:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:{{yo|Luganchanka|Hemiauchenia}} | |||
*:It does seem that the discussion at ] does indicate some support for that language i.e. ({{tq|convicted child sex offender}}) in the lead, with some general lean against putting it in the first sentence. So, while {{tq|There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences}} is true if it means the literal first sentence, I do see a rough consensus to include the material in the lead section in some way in that discussion. | |||
*:That being said, the BLPN discussion had a bit of different tone and tenor from the discussion on the talk page. There was on the article's talk page, but Luganchanka, despite having been pretty vocal about this subject in the past, hadn't participated in that BLPN discussion. They instead grounded their edits in the argument that the article's talk page had consensus for the current content, and nothing on the article's talk page had changed that consensus. And that much was true. In any case, we've got <s>]</s>two different forums with two different answers here, which appears to be what's leading to the whole kerfluffle. | |||
*:Then the analysis comes to whether or not the label is a straightforward BLP violation, requiring us to read the sourcing in the article. , which is cited in the ''body'' of the article (but not the lead), does state that Ritter {{tq|was convicted unlawful contact with minors and other charges}} in the state of PA (the PA statute is ; "unlawful contact with minors" is the verbatim name of the crime). When dealing with a sting operation, PA treats it as {{tq|an offense of the same grade and degree}} as if the criminal had actually contacted a child (unless it's a lesser crime than a third-degree felony, in which case it becomes a third-degree felony). This is an extremely common practice in the United States (there are lots of philosophical questions regarding ''mens rea'' and ''actus reus'' here, but that's not really relevant here). In any case, labeling this to be a child sex offense (or, alternatively, to simply use the name of the crime in the article) does not appear to be straightforward malice/POV-pushing/libel, and a reasonably informed individual might shorten it in this way. Whether or not that is ''wise'' or ''optimal'' to shorten it is the proper subject for content discussion. | |||
*:Aside from the edit warring (which was not acceptable, and was aptly handled by a block), this looks like a content dispute. A heated one involving a living person, sure, but a content dispute nonetheless. I see good-faith—albeit passionate—disagreement. If the editors were to come together and engage in one forum (such as the article's talk page, where this has been discussed a bunch), rather than splitting the discussion over multiple pages, I feel like we might have our best shot at attaining a consensus going forward. | |||
*:In short, it looks like the conversation fragmented, and consensus-building broke down. Edit warring ensued, which was bad, but we've already blocked for that in order to dissuade it going forward. A ] on the article's talk page for what the lead should look like is probably the best way to go forward here. | |||
*:— ] <sub>]</sub> 15:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::RTH, are you objecting to a p-block from the article? ] (]) 13:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Ping to @] ] (]) 18:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Luganchanka has been blocked for a week by ] for BLP violations and personal attacks. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Just noting that this was a regular admin action and I wasn't aware this was before AE. ] (]) 18:42, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::With this in mind, I think we should wait to hear from RTH but otherwise expect to move forward to an indef p-block on top of SFR's stopgap action, as we haven't seen anything coming close to an adequate recognition of the relevant policies and practices from Luganchanka and after several second chances and nudges, I don't see reason to expect them to change course. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 18:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==BabbleOnto== | |||
=====Comment on Wispanow's statement by Jayen466===== | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
*It is hard to know where to begin. In his statement, Wispanow cites Scientology's and a press release by the as evidence that Scientology has been recognised as a religion by the German courts. A Scientology blog is not a reliable source. Scientology's own statements on the matter are, to say the least, disputed, and certainly selective, listing only judgments in Scientology's favour. For example, there is no listing for the 1995 Federal Labour Court ruling that explicitly said Scientology is NOT a religion. Having said that, there certainly have been court decisions in Scientology's favour, and this is mentioned in the article. Wispanow fails to realise that the focus of criticism from abroad is not the German court system, which is generally held to be fairly impartial, but the German government. | |||
*The Scientology blog, as a selective review listing court decisions in Scientology's favour, lacks any reference to statements by the German government that call Scientology's status as a religion in doubt. For example, see , a document put up by the German Embassy in Washington D.C., which said, among other things: "The German government considers the Scientology organization a commercial enterprise with a history of taking advantage of vulnerable individuals and an extreme dislike of any criticism. Given this background, Germany, as well as Belgium, France, Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Spain, Israel and Mexico, remain unconvinced that Scientology is a religion." This continues to be the German government's position today, as affirmed in the document prepared by the German Parliament's Scientific Services Division, and widely reported in the international media. I respectfully submit that statements by the German Embassy are a more reliable indicator of the degree of acceptance Scientology has as a religion in Germany than Scientology's propaganda. | |||
*Failing to find his views reflected in mainstream sources like ''Time'' Magazine and the BBC, Wispanow concludes that ''Time'' and the BBC are "wrong or racist" and should be excluded as sources. He says, "I accuse mainly time.com and partly bbc.co.uk (and others) for stating an unbalanced, wrong and/or even racist viewpoint of Germany and german people. Therefore it will not help adding additional sources just mentioning the same viewpoint, but check if its real or wrong or racist." So all these reliable sources are wrong, and Wispanow is right, and feels he is entitled to edit-war so the article says what he thinks it should say and doesn't say what he thinks all those reliable sources should not have said. ] ''Time'' Magazine and the BBC are valued and trusted sources, and the fact that Wispanow does not understand or accept this makes him unfit to contribute to this topic area. | |||
*I should also mention that while Wispanow rejects ''Time'' Magazine and the BBC as reliable sources, he saw fit to to include the following unreliable sources in the article: | |||
**http://boycottcity.org/view/index.php?itemId=325 | |||
**http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/boycott-tom-cruise-s-war-of-the-worlds-all-other-cruise-movies.html | |||
**http://www.scientomogy.com/mi3/missionimpossible3.com.php | |||
**http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/tomcruiseboycott | |||
**http://www.boycottvalkyrie.com/ | |||
**http://www.scientomogy.com/boycotttomcruise.com.php | |||
*It is impossible to write a good, encyclopedic article when edits like come along and need to be haggled over. | |||
*Wispanow has been warned by three different admins for edit-warring, personal attacks, deleting sourced material and adding poorly sourced material in ]. The third of these warnings made explicit reference to ]. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 11:25, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*I have started a discussion thread at ]. This was the point that Wispanow sought to change several times, without adding a source in support, and without removing the existing German Parliament source which contradicted his text. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 18:46, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
=== |
===Request concerning BabbleOnto=== | ||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|ජපස}} 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
<!-- Use {{discussion top}} / {{discussion bottom}} to mark this request as closed.--> | |||
<!-- Use {{hat|result is ... }} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed if collapsing desired.--> | |||
*Please provide a link to where an uninvolved administrator has previously left a message on the editor's talk page, linking to ], warning the editor that a topic ban is contemplated and outlining the behaviours for which it is contemplated, as required by ], or if no such message has been left, please say so, and I will then leave one and this AE report will be closed. ] (]) 13:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
** --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 20:45, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
***I tend to support SilkTork's suggestion of a moderated discussion. Topic-banning users isn't conducive to happy editing. ] (]) 19:38, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
****Fine by me. If the discussion can lead to reliably sourced improvements, I am all for it. The article is still locked for another 10 days or so; this will give us a window of opportunity to see whether anything worthwhile will result from these discussions. <small>(Feel free to move this reply.)</small> --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 21:31, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*****OK; I'll close this shortly. Please feel free to return here if SilkTork's moderated discussion falls through. ] (]) 11:29, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
******Wispanow seems to believe that it offends the national honor of Germany to report in our article some of the things that the government has done, or to report what reliable sources have had to say about German public opinion. He doesn't seem to realize that it is POV editing for him to present himself as a would-be defender of national honor, since his complaints about 'racism' are merely his own personal opinion, and are inappropriate per ]. (He can offer no published source that uses the term 'racism' in connection with the Scientology controversy in Germany). Stifle may close this for now, but I myself will consider the basic issue unresolved until Wispanow agrees to follow Misplaced Pages policy. ] (]) 13:58, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*******My impression is the Wispanow has legitimate concerns which he expresses very poorly, perhaps due to language difficulties. Vague, broad generalizations about an entire people, such as, "...German fears and concerns about new religious movements reached a level resembling hysteria in the mid-nineties..." should not be stated as fact in Misplaced Pages's voice no matter how many sources use the word hysteria. When we are dealing with a major controversy in a large country there will always be numerous commentators taking strong rhetorical positions. I would think a moderated discourse could come up with language that was more appropriate without ignoring critics of Germany's response to this matter.--] (]) 21:38, 14 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
********<small>Talk page thread on the word started ]. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 23:56, 14 March 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|BabbleOnto}}<p>{{ds/log|BabbleOnto}}</p> | |||
== PCPP == | |||
{{hat|{{user|PCPP}} warned, no further action.}} | |||
===Request concerning PCPP=== | |||
; User requesting enforcement : ] (]) 15:55, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|PCPP}} | |||
;Sanction or remedy |
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | ||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
#] | |||
#] | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | ; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | ||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
In presenting this, I hope to bring to the attention of arbcom the continual disruption and removal of content by User:PCPP on Falun Gong and closely related pages. This behavior of the user extends to all articles carrying material critical of the Chinese Communist Party. | |||
# Sealioning | |||
# Refusal to ] | |||
# Personalizing an argument. | |||
# Railroading the discussion. | |||
This is all after I warned them about ] sanctions, and . Very nearly a ] on the subject. I see no reason to continue tolerating this kind of obstinate ]. Additional diffs available on request from admins, but looking at the user history should suffice to indicate the problem is obvious, I hope. | |||
The user's editing pattern involves: | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
1. Repetitive blanking of vast amounts of sourced and centrally relevant material, with no discussion on talk, and often under edit summaries like “rv pov material.” | |||
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.--> | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
2. Distortion of sourced content and the addition of personal commentary, which he misattributes to sources already present in the article. | |||
<!-- The following are examples. Write "Not applicable" or similar if this is not a discretionary sanctions enforcement request. Otherwise, fill out at least one line that applies and delete the rest. If you wish to request discretionary sanctions but none of these situations apply, issue an alert yourself instead of making this request, see the link above. --> | |||
*Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on (see the system log linked to above). | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
3. And, when under close scrutiny, the watering down of critical sources, with unsubstantiated claims to the effect that they are the content is “pov”, is undue, etc. | |||
<!-- Add any further comment here --> | |||
This is a ] with respect to the topic and their ] surrounding it has been subject to at least one ] thread that remains active: ]. The hope was that they would ] and move on from this, but it seems they either will not or cannot. ] (]) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
Even a superficial analysis can reveal his scouring of articles pertinent to the CCP’s human rights violations, from which he removes critical material, while simultaneously piling accusations against those attempting to contribute to those articles. | |||
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. --> | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
===Discussion concerning BabbleOnto=== | |||
What I present below is but a sample of such behavior, all from within the past few months, by the user. | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by BabbleOnto==== | |||
'''1. Article:'''] | |||
I would first like to begin by point out the person filing this complaint . They have frequently left "warnings" which read more like threats on and for people who disagree with them. Nor would I be the . | |||
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm being charged with doing. | |||
'''Nature of disruption:'''Repetitive blanking of sourced and centrally relevant material with no discussion presented.Concerns raised are ignored by the user. | |||
I think in general the user is alleging I've been uncivil, unhelpful, and, in their words, obstinate and tendentious. I know when someone disagrees with you it may feel like they're getting in your way and acting in bad-faith, but that's not always true. I've never tried to be disruptive or uncivil. I've , I've that were clarified to be wrong, I've , at times and work together. And when those editors , I didn't provoke any further. | |||
The below content, drawing upon one of the few sources available on the topic, '''has been blanked 6 times by the user''' since its inception into the article. | |||
I now address the specific edits in the complaint: | |||
<blockquote> | |||
"According to the 2008 Congressional Executive Commission Report on China, "Publicly available government documents detail the central role of the 6-10 Office in the persecution of Falun Gong."<ref name=CER/> The report states: ""6-10 Offices throughout China maintain extrajudicial 'transformation through reeducation' facilities that are used specifically to detain Falun Gong practitioners who have completed terms in reeducation through labor (RTL) camps but whom authorities refuse to release. The term `transformation through reeducation' (jiaoyu zhuanhua) describes a process of ideological reprogramming whereby practitioners are subjected to various methods of physical and psychological coercion until they recant their belief in Falun Gong."<ref name=CER/>" | |||
</blockquote> | |||
1. I don't see how this is sea-lioning. The user misquoted the article. I pointed out the misquotation, then addressed a accusation against me that I was second-guessing the sources (A claim which was never substantiated). I then said any source would have to support that actual claim which was in the article. I don't know what this violates. | |||
The diffs: . | |||
2. I don't see how this is refusing to get the message (IDHT). The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it. I replied with what I actually said. What part of that interaction is saying "I didn't hear that?" | |||
Concerns raised regarding this behavior, on the talk page is met with no response from PCPP, other than repeated blanking. | |||
3. Admittedly probably the strongest of the four allegations. I'm not pretending I was perfect in all of my comments. I should have kept my criticism strictly to their argument. I ask you to read it in context and keep in mind you're viewing a hand-picked assortment of my worst edits, and this is the worst they could find. Also consider that conversation accused me of , perhaps you can see I lose my cool sometimes too. | |||
Together with the blanking, supported by neither discussion nor edit summary, the user distorts the lead of the article. The statement sourced to Congressional Executive Report on China, 2008: “This entity was charged with the mission of overseeing and carrying out the ], which commenced on July 22, 1999.”, is distorted by the user to “It is responsible for monitoring, studying and analyzing matters relating to ], and recommending policy measures for ], and also what the government calls "heretical cults" and "harmful ] organisations"; and for promptly notifying municipal party committees of trends and developments within "cults".”. The commentary added by the user is mis-attributed and not supported by any source. | |||
4. I'm not even really sure what "railroading the discussion" means. Thus, to keep this section short and to save words, I don't know what I'm being accused of doing wrong here. | |||
All of this has stemmed out of arguments over two sources. I have tried to find compromise, I have tried to negotiate, I have tried to build consensus. I've been going through the proper channels, I've been participating in the RfC, I've been discussing it on the ANI, I source every claim I make, for a month now I've been trying to constructively explain my side and defend my argument against challenges. It's incredibly frustrating to now be facing an Arbitration Enforcement on grounds that '''I'm''' not working with others. ] (]) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''2. Article:''' ] | |||
*:Edited. ] (]) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Sorry, the sub-header for this section says that only admins can edit this section, I didn't realize I was allowed to reply here. | |||
'''Nature of disruption:''' Blanking of 12 paragraphs of sourced, centrally relevant material, with no discussion. | |||
*:Yes, I will. I intend on taking an extended break from wikipedia, as well. ] (]) 17:06, 19 January 2025 (UTC) <small> Moved from uninvolved admin section; you can answer questions, make comments, discuss, but all your input needs to be in your own section. ] (]) 17:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
**::{{TQ|an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around.}} | |||
**:: What I meant was that I'm willing to respect the consensus and not make any further edits or argue any more contrary to what the consensus decided. It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to ''personally agree'' with the consensus, beyond just respecting it, then there's nothing I can do. I still do disagree with the consensus's result. Nonetheless, I'm not going to edit or argue further, I'll respect it as a legitimate. | |||
***::: Re:{{tq|no, you don't have to agree. You just have to accept and move on.}} | |||
Shortly following the expansion and addition of sources to ], PCPP . He offers no explanation for this act. And his edit summary runs “rv POV material.” | |||
***::: Then I accept the consensus. I'm not going to argue in those discussions any further, though I still personally disagree, I understand a consensus has been reached which is other than my opinion. Nor will I edit disruptively or against the consensus. I appreciate the admin who noted I largely kept my disagreement in the talk pages, not editing the articles themselves. I plan on staying away from the topic in general for quite a while. | |||
****:::: Re:{{tq|BabbleOnto, do you understand what we're talking about when we describe your participation at talk pages as WP:sealioning, and why we think it's such a problem, particularly in contentious topics? Do you think you can avoid participating in that way at article talk pages?}} | |||
****:::: Yes, and yes. | |||
====Statement by ProcrastinatingReader==== | |||
'''3. Article: ]''' | |||
I've interacted with BabbleOnto in several threads. There's a few problems, but ultimately, I think they have a certain opinion on what the article should say, and will debate endlessly to get the article changed to their position. I mean, sure, reasonable people disagree on how to interpret sources and apply policy, but I don't think BabbleOnto is actually interested in faithful application of policies to write high quality articles based on good sources. | |||
That's not terribly problematic by itself, but most discussions with BabbleOnto are exhausting. Rather than actually trying to understand someone's argument in good faith, I think BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible, and making a superficially reasonable response ''ad nauseam''. They reply endlessly in this manner. As well as misrepresentation of opponents' arguments, on multiple occassions BabbleOnto has either misrepresented sources or hasn't read their own sources. I can't think of a single thread where BabbleOnto didn't have the last word, or a single thread where it seemed like BabbleOnto was actually trying to understand the arguments of other editors in a charitable way. As such, I think it's very difficult to work collaborately with BabbleOnto on the lab leak theory and related articles. ] (]) 21:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''Nature of disruption:''' Blanking | |||
====Statement by Newimpartial==== | |||
The above was preceded by a similar blanking of content . Before this, an editor who has continually supported, worked with, and encouraged PCPP, blanks a portion of the content added to the article with an argument to the effect that its good enough for the article to remain a “catalogue.” | |||
As the editor to whom BabbleOnto was responding in the diffs of the filing, I feel compelled to comment now that they have defended (to varying degrees) their first three diffs. I will reply as briefly as I know how to their defense of the diffs, . | |||
1. BabbleOnto is now doubling down on the claim that I {{tq|misquoted the article}}. I didn't "misquote" the article - I didn't quote the article, and I explained what my comment meant in the rest of the (now collapsed) thread that ends . Also, I provided a clear explanation of why I thought they were second-guessing sources later in the thread, but BabbleOnto never responded to that explanation. They are now responding to the accusation of ] with pure ]. | |||
2. On this they say, now, that {{tq|The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it.}} This is repeating a misreading they made in the original thread, where they mistook a statement I made about another editor's comment as if it were about theirs. In this "defense", I see no attempt to read thoughtfully what other editors say in reply to them and revise their understanding accordingly; all I see is zero-sum mentality and ]. | |||
'''4. Article: ]''' | |||
3. BabbleOnto is now justifying an edit where they said to me, {{tq|You have a habit of inserting small lies into everything you say}} and {{tq|You're not adding anything constructive. You're just refusing to explain anything and saying conclusory statements, or lying about what you said}} - all this based on a misreading of what I had actually written - because I was going to refer to {{tq|a basic failure in reading comprehension}} '''''two hours later'''''. This seems like a time travel paradox. | |||
'''Nature of disruption:''' Whole-scale blanking | |||
4. They don't bother defending themselves on this one, but just to point out the actual issue with the diff, they doubled down on their accusations that I {{tq|said a material lie}}, and that I {{tq|lied when said that quoted the article out of context. Pointing out being caught lying}} and then proceeded to STRAWMAN the rest of my comment to which they were replying. If they had read my prior comment with a reasonable level of attention, they would have understood that there were no "lies", just a misunderstanding or two in each direction. But ] again; even in responding to this filing BabbleOnto is still insisting I did things that I quite obviously didn't do. | |||
In the same article, the user, despite attempts to engage him in discussion, continues to blank a quarter of the article - 10K of content. He attacks the sources themselves, alleging their origin in US makes them anti-China and hence not RS. Kindly review the comments regarding this on talk:. The blanking takes place in these edits: | |||
It is exhausting to deal with this kind of quasi-CPUSH (not quite civil, but certainly push) behaviour. The Talk page in question has seen a recent influx of single-purpose or nearly single-purpose POV accounts, and in terms of editor energy, this one certainly seems not to be a net positive for Misplaced Pages as a project. Perhaps if they edited away from Covid and US politics, their track record might improve. ] (]) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Objective3000==== | |||
'''5. Article: ]''' | |||
Just a quick aside to Valereee's aside: {{TQ|Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn....}} ] currently has posts from 19 editors lacking the edits for extended confirmed. ] (]) 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:@], this is also a problem at other CTOPs, and is likely to become more problematic. I assume due to off-Wiki forums. ECR might just produce more users gaming EC. I thought it would be useful to put your aside into the CTOP template at the top of CTOP TPs. But that assumes folks read it. Walt Kelly said something along the lines of: “If only I could write, I’d write a letter to the mayor, if only he could read." This discussion is likely better off elsewhere. ] (]) 21:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Note: ] was just TBanned from the topic of COVID-19 and indef blocked until the accusations of off-wiki coordination made by them at ANI are retracted. Those accusations are like their suggestion made in their statement in this filing. ] (]) 12:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by JoelleJay==== | |||
'''Nature of Disruption:''' Blanking. | |||
At the very least, can we get more admin involvement on the lab leak page so trolling like ] doesn't disrupt things even more? ] (]) 07:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by IntrepidContributor==== | |||
Three paragraphs deleted with no explanation offered.. | |||
I have been observing BabbleOnto and while there are valid concerns about bludgeoning, I think the proposed sanctions are too much. His engagement in the Covid lab leak topic is driven by commitment to WP:NPOV, which our articles fail to adhere to, and he made the mistake of arguing with editors who were never going to listen (resulting in what looks like sealioning on his part). He's not only editor to raise issues in the topic and engage in good faith discussion, only to find themselves pulled to AN or AE disputes after staying out of the seasoning traps and refusing to capitulate to threats. In a parallel AN case concerning another editor in same topic, I suggest there may be possible off-wiki coordination , but it can also be on-wiki (). | |||
One need only cross-reference names from , checking those that voted for labeling COVID-19 lab leak as conspiracy, with the names of complainants here. Contrast all these old timers with the steady stream of tens if not hundreds of regular editors complaining that our article fails NPOV, and see that their gentle approach doesn't work . Our chief complainant is already preparing his next case , and this might not be his first. | |||
'''6. Article: ]''' | |||
'''Blanks''' almost the same content as above , this time labeling the sources “questionable” in the edit summary – no supporting discussion on talk. . Concerns raised regarding this can be seen on talk of the article: | |||
I suggest that administrators consider a 1 to 2 month topic ban for BabbleOnto to provide opportunity for him to correct his approach, while staying alert to the tactics of POV editors trying to draw them into content debates to influence outcomes. | |||
] (]) 14:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''7. Article: ]''' | |||
=== Statement by TarnishedPath === | |||
'''Nature of Disruption:''' Blanking of material under a misleading edit summary | |||
Please see ] where BabbleOnto edited ] restoring previously reverted content and ] using a shit source after they'd been told by multiple other editors in discussions ] and ] that the source was shit. Notably in the edit summary they wrote "{{tq|Read discussion page. Manual revert. No serious challenge has been made to these changes. Methinks an admin needs to get involved...}}" despite them being in a ] situation. If a clue is not gotten by the editor fast I'd suggest TBANs from both COVID and AP2 is warranted in order to cease their disruption. '']''<sup>]</sup> 04:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Noting the editor's continued behaviour at ]. Refer to ]. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Content removed in edits with misleading edit summaries: | |||
::and again at ] '']''<sup>]</sup> 03:01, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by berchanhimez=== | |||
This user was given no less than 4 chances on the talk page to stop talking about bans/other editors and start talking about the content. They have continued crying about how they're scared of getting banned... yet they continue blabbing about other editors getting banned for their bad behavior ]. ''At a minimum'' a partial block from the talk page(s) in question is warranted, and it would be beneficial for a topic ban from the origins of COVID-19, broadly construed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 03:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==== Statement by Shibbolethink ==== | |||
'''8. Article: ]''' | |||
I am heavily involved in this overall dispute as someone who has gone back and forth with BabbleOnto. I wanted to add that, in general, my feeling from interacting with this user is that they ''could'' be a good contributor to this site, and absolutely ''could'' follow the PAGs. They have shown an ability to be courteous . I think the issue is that in FRINGE and other contentious areas like COVID-19 origins, they have shown a tendancy to become "hot-headed" when tensions rise, and to reference an us vs them mentality (and numerous examples from others above). It seems they have also been egged-on, and made more combative from other PROFRINGE users (and probably some anti-FRINGE users as well who do admittedly ]) in that topic space (e.g. ) | |||
We are told often to use narrowest possible restriction to protect the project. In this case, '''I think that would be a COVID-19 origins TBAN''', where most of the disruption has been. The user states they have learned what to do when consensus is against them. If they fail to show that lesson in AP2 articles more than just the 10 or so edits they've made in those articles, an AP2 TBAN would be appropriate at that time (]). Just my 2 cents.— ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 22:05, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''Nature of Disruption:''' Repetitive addition of unsourced material and blanking of sourced content. | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
Adds several paragraphs of unsourced content . And here he reverts ( with misleading edit summaries) contributions by other editors removing well sourced and centrally relevant content ( he offers no explanation for his blanking). The issue was raised here on the talk of the article: | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning BabbleOnto=== | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*<!-- | |||
--> | |||
*{{u|BabbleOnto}}, please edit your statement down further to fit within the restriction. This also serves as an opportunity to rephrase your defense, which currently is not convincing at first glance. ProcrastinatingReader's description of the situation seems quite apt, particularly {{tq|BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible}}, which is currently a pretty fitting description of your response to them here, given that you zeroed in on the "superficially reasonable" part and ignored the much more serious parts of the testimony. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at ] exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes ]. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of ]. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::{{u|Valereee}} in line with their follow-up response, I take Objective3000's comments as potentially a basis for community discussion rather than a call for protective action on the lab leak talk page right now. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 21:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* I have to agree, this looks like sealioning. {{u|BabbleOnto}}, you're new here, and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt about your ability to learn to collaborate. WP works on collaboration and consensus, and sometimes consensus goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. You have to be willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you. And you absolutely must not insist everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers. I've seen editors at both the Thompson and the lab leak talks tell you they don't actually owe you an answer to your satisfaction. | |||
:Do you think you can learn to do that? Because if you don't think you can, this may not be the right hobby for you. | |||
'''9. Article:]''' | |||
:<small>As an aside, I'm going to recommend what I always recommend to new editors who end up here: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn. Go edit in noncontentious topics, where other editors are a lot less exhausted and have the energy to be more patient with new editors.</small> ] (]) 18:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''Nature of disruption:'' Removes an entire section. | |||
{{collapse top|title=Tangential}} | |||
::@], hm, yes, and ] also has 37 archives, and even with archiving at 21 days, 20 sections. Do you think an ECR is something that talk page needs? That's not part of the authorized restrictions an individual admin can place...hm, and I'm not sure of the policy w/re most efficiently getting that done and wasting the fewest people's time. @]? ] (]) 21:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I would object to ECPing the talk page. COVID-19 ], though this specific ''article'' is protected. The purpose of protecting the page (in this case) is to push newer users to the talk page, where they can discuss changes they want made (such as by edit requests) and contribute towards consensus-building while not edit warring. Protecting talk pages is truly, ''truly'' a last resort. Ordinary good faith people would be entirely shut out and silenced—we'd not even get edit requests—and I frankly don't see anything near the level of disruption/LTA abuse that would justify jumping straight to ]. — ] <sub>]</sub> 01:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::@], not ECP. ECR: non-EC are restricted from anything but making edit requests. ] (]) 14:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I see. In any case, ECR is the sort of remedy that should be reserved for more or less when all else fails—it’s still ''super'' restrictive. If new users/inexperienced users are trying to contribute towards consensus-building on the talk page (or even if they’re doing ordinary confused new editor things), and aren’t edit warring, I don’t think we’d actually be ] by enforcing ECR. | |||
:::::Suppose someone in good-faith sees “anyone can edit”, and they want to edit something topical. But then they see that the page that they want to edit is protected. They read the explanation that appears after clicking the “view source” tab. They then read that they can discuss this page with others, click on the first blue link, and then make a section using the “add topic” button in order to start a discussion. | |||
:::::“OK”, the newbie thinks, “maybe I will find someone else who agrees with me, or I’ll at least get some answer as to why the article is this way”. They leave their computer and come back in an hour. They then discover that their question has been removed by some random editor with edit summary “] violation, user not ]; malformed edit request” and find a contentious topics notice on their own user talk page, all because they don’t make a properly formatted edit request (i.e. “please change X to Y”). Or maybe they wont navigate the talk page history and they’ll angrily post that their earlier comment was deleted. Or maybe they just won’t come back. To top it off, nothing at any point in this process was obvious to them that such a requirement existed—there is no edit notice that says so, and so they couldn’t know. | |||
:::::] is ]y. It dissuades new voices from joining conversations, and it makes it somewhat hostile to true newbies. In particular, it dissuades people who, for example: | |||
:::::#Are Not hardcore/insane enough to deal with intense wiki-bureaucracy; | |||
:::::#Are unable to cope with handling unfamiliar wikitext markup when making edit requests for anything that is not a trivial word change, or who have abstract changes in mind more than concrete ones; | |||
:::::#Do not want to spend an hour of their time to figure out how to say the magic words to summon another editor to fix a typo. | |||
:::::The chief way that ECR works is by making LTAs/sockmasters have to put on a lot of effort or make a lot of edits. This raises the (time) cost of socking, and it has the benefit of possibly exposing tells along the way. But that also means that we’re imposing the same thing on good-faith newbies. | |||
:::::When deciding whether or not to impose ECR, we have to balance that it is extremely BITEy to good-faith newbies against its ability to prevent disruption. There are times where we are basically left to throw our hands up because of LTA/sockmaster abuse, and conclude that the tradeoff is worth it; the ArbCom has done this for certain contentious topics. But, the ArbCom had the wisdom to not enable ECR as a page sanction across all contentious topic areas—there is a very real tradeoff that needs to be really carefully considered. And I don’t the tradeoff leans towards embracing ECR ''here''. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">] <sub>]</sub></span> 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::I'm don't think we need to have this discussion here and now, but I don't disagree it's bitey and needs to be used only where necessary. I was just asking the question of someone who is working at that article: is this an article talk where it's necessary? ] (]) 17:45, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{collapse bottom}} | |||
*{{u|BabbleOnto}}, are you planning to answer my questions above? Do you think you're able/willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you? Are you able/willing to stop insisting everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers? ] (]) 13:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Edit summary makes no mention of it and no discussion on talk. | |||
*:BabbleOnto's response understanding this as a suggestion to take a break from Misplaced Pages as a whole isn't quite what I was hoping to see. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@], an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around. | |||
*:@], I'd support a tban, but is AP2 enough? It seems like COVID and fringe science need to be included? ] (]) 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::AP2 + COVID? I see the same behavior at the Brian Thompson article and Havana Syndrome, so COVID alone doesn't seem adequate. Oddly, the intersection of "medicine and politics" would appear to cover all affected topics but maybe that's too bespoke? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 17:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@], re:{{xt|It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to personally agree with the consensus, beyond just respecting it,}} no, you don't have to agree. You just have to accept and move on. ] (]) 23:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I think {{u|BabbleOnto}} is actually getting the right idea. You do not have to ''agree'' with consensus. There are some consensus positions here I don't agree with, and some I think are rather silly. But, until and unless they change, I respect and abide by them all the same. If I try to challenge them, and it becomes clear that such a challenge was unsuccessful, there comes a time to just shrug, realize you can't win 'em all, and ]. Since they seem to have gotten that point, I think maybe see how things go, and if they return to disruption, I think they're quite clear on what the results of that will be. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 14:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:In my experience sealioning is a habit editors have an extremely difficult time breaking. I was going to agree with Rosguill re: a tban from AP2 + COVID, maybe appealable after 3 months and 500 productive and unproblematic edits. This editor is basically ONLY editing in CTOPs, they're doing it disruptively -- we're talking about an editor with only 177 whom other editors are describing as exhausting to interact with! -- and the specific kind of disruption is both frustrating and tedious to prove ''and'' frustrating to try to get attention to because who you need so many diffs to prove it. That plus the apparent difficulty in breaking that habit, which btw they were continuing ''during this case''...I dunno. ] (]) 14:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I certainly understand your point. I am a little hesitant to sanction for "sealioning", as often it is difficult to tell where enthusiasm ends and disruptive tendentiousness begins, and I certainly do not want to have a project where people are afraid to advocate viewpoints contrary to a current consensus. That said, if everyone else feels sanctions are warranted, I won't object terribly strongly; I just generally prefer someone to get a chance to show if they've gotten the point (or in some cases, to conclusively demonstrate that they have not). ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Generally I'm with you. Let people show they've dealt with the issue. Reblocking is pretty easy in most cases. But sealioning...well, it's such a difficult issue to prove/assess, and there are so many people doing it who don't even have the self-awareness to fix the problem that I kind of feel like it needs a tougher approach than I'd normally argue for. Not a hill I'm going to die on, but if the editor is back here or at ANI for the same issue, I am going to be extremely unhappy with them. | |||
*:::@], do you understand what we're talking about when we describe your participation at talk pages as ], and why we think it's such a problem, particularly in contentious topics? Do you think you can avoid participating in that way at article talk pages? ] (]) 20:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==Marlarkey== | |||
{{hat|Marlarkey p-blocked from ] and formally warned to be more mindful of policies, guidelines and best practices when editing CTOPs, particularly PIA <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 19:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
'''10. Article:]''' | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Marlarkey}}<p>{{ds/log|Marlarkey}}</p> | |||
Comparatively minor disruptions such as repetitive changing of “Persection of Falun Gong” ( term used by academic sources, HRW, UN, Amnesty, US Congress reports, etc) to “Banning of Falun Gong” . Attempts to get the user to present a rationale for his insistence on using the word “ban” can be seen here: | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
'''11. Article: ]''' | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
Blanks a para while falsely claiming in his edit summary that the content he blanked is a “misattribution”: | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
''' |
'''''' | ||
# - Mainspace PIA edit prior to EC status. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request and acknowledgement of aforementioned edit. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. Accused another editor of vandalism. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. Says, "I don't give a stuff about what you or Israel say about the declaration." | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. Accused editor of "vandalism" in edit summary. | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. Accused editor of "vandalism" in edit summary. | |||
'''''' | |||
The editor routinely attacks sources which do not align with his POV. Here, as a justification of his blanking of content from that source, the user attacks a ] article by China expert with claims that : "a) is not a suitable academic source as most of its material relies on original research b) is from an organization funded by the US government, and the countries reported happened to be political opponents of the US c) used as such that claims made by the report is presented as factual evidence in disproportionate amounts" and here he attacks a Reporters Sans Frontiers source on 'grounds' that: " A bunch of rhetorics froma CIA funded organization can hardly meet WP:RS". The user continues to blank the Freedom House material despite RS discussion. The user also continually engages in personal attack on those attempting to contribute to the article. | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request..."''Someone has reverted my removal of Israel - Hamas *AGAIN* so I've taken it out *AGAIN*.''" | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. | |||
# - Self-revert of direct previous mainspace reversion that was prior to EC status. | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status...Made while this enforcement request was being typed up. This reversion by Marlarkey is of an edit with the direct edit summary of "Per ]". User is 100% disregarding CT requirements. | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : N/A. No previous blocks or topic bans. | |||
-- | |||
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.--> | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): at 15:29, 21 November 2024. | |||
The above are just a few instances illustrative of the kind of the disruption the user engages in. The arguments the user presents on talk are often of a disruptive nature as well, and often invovles personal attacks on those contributing to the article. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
PCPP also repeatedly changes the words from sources to weaken or distort the claims they make, the case often being the latter - distortion of the perspective of the source. These edits he labels: "clarifying", "per WP:NPOV", etc.,,. In all these cases, the sources said those precise words as were in the article. He provides no other explanation for the changes he makes to them. | |||
User has been on Misplaced Pages (on and off) since at least January 2010. It seems there is a ]-related issue on ArbCom PIA/Contentious topics, given the very clear lack of ignorance of the ArbCom Notification and subsequent edit summary arguments. I do not necessarily believe a block will be of use in this case, due to this editor's on-and-off Misplaced Pages editing status (less than 500 edits since January 2010). Either a topic ban and/or a 1,000 EC status requirement (i.e. EC-status requirement is something higher than 500 edits) is being requested. '''The ]''' (] 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*One of the edits by Marlarkey listed above from 13 January 2025 has been by {{u|ScottishFinnishRadish}} for Marlarkey not being ECR logged. '''The ]''' (] 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:*{{ping|Marlarkey}} I want to ], so I wanted to let you know that ] is what we call "broadly constructed". If you read ], it says, "{{tq|These are the current arbitration remedies applicable to any pages and edits that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.}}" The edit you are attempting to me is ''related'' to the Arab-Israel conflict. The page itself does not have to be entirely about the war to be covered under the restrictions. Any edit that is at least, even slightly related to the conflict is covered under the restrictions. While the page is about declarations of war throughout history, the specific edit is related to whether the Israel-Hamas war was a declaration of war. That is obviously related to the conflict, given it specifically is in regard to the ]. That is why the edits were reverted and why this violation report was filed. Hopefully that makes sense. Also, just a quick side-note, accusing other editors of vandalism is ] and is not really how Misplaced Pages operates. You should always ]. '''The ]''' (] 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::*{{ping|Marlarkey}} We are all working together to create a better encyclopedia. No one is against you and we do wish for all to edit Misplaced Pages. The ArbCom restrictions require that you have (1) at least an account of 30 days old and (2) at least 500 edits, to be able to edit content anywhere on Misplaced Pages regarding the Israel-Hamas war. At the time of all the edits linked above, you did not have 500 edits on Misplaced Pages. You were roughly at 490. At the time of this, you now have over 500 edits, which means you could now edit content regarding the Israel-Hamas war. That said, this report was made because of the several edits you made prior to reaching the 500 edit requirement. | |||
:::Please understand this is for the edits that you made which were in clear violation of the policy, which requires you to have 500 edits prior to editing anything even remotely related to the conflict. This report was not that you are incorrect with your removal of the content. Not at all. This report is because you removed the content before you were allowed to (i.e. the 500-edit mark). Please understand we all are on the same-side here and no one is vandalizing anything. Once this is resolved, I would be more than happy to calmly discuss the content changes with you. I hope you can understand that this report is specifically because you made the changes before you were allowed to and not at all regarding the content in those changes. '''The ]''' (] 00:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
PCPP also rarely, if ever, adds any research to the articles. He focuses is often on pulling apart these articles and simultaneously discrediting the contributions of others. This behaviour of his has gone on for a long time and above are but recent instances. I request admins to kindly review PCPP's contribution history. In it is apparent a clear pattern of removal of material critical of the CCP from articles through out wikipedia. | |||
*{{ping|Rosguill}} After my last reply, I realized I went 105 words over the 500-word limit. I would like to request that 105-word extension (so I do not have to reword or remove the last reply I made). I do not plan to reply again as I think everything I needed to say and link to has been said and linked to. '''The ]''' (] 00:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
In addition, I would also like to draw attention to a systematic blanking of critical content and images on articles related to the CPP and its human rights violations which, I notice, has been happening on articles throughout wikipedia. Academic and news sources state that the Chinese Communist Party employs an army, hundreds of thousands strong, targeting Web 2.0 technologies such as Misplaced Pages, Twitter and youtube. My intent is not to imply that editors involved in such removal of material are all directly related to the CCP, but, to point out that the presence of research and reports, which uncover such activism by CCP’s propaganda departments, makes the issue deserving of further attention of the Misplaced Pages Community. I humbly request a careful analysis of the issue be done, before any judgment is made on the merits of this concern I raise, and if evidence is found of such activity, the necessary steps be taken to counter it. A lot of evidence exists in Falun Gong related pages themselves. For instance, the ] article has had almost all information regarding the persecution( sourced to Amnesty, HRW, UN CAT, Congressional Executive Reports, academic sources, etc.) , blanked from it. Blanking has been done to the point that in the lead of the article itself, it is made to seem as if this major international crisis is but a mere claim made by practitioners. I point out the issue here on talk In the past, these articles have witnessed attack from self-declared propagandists such as ]. Identified by ], and ], and articles such as the ones here: , as a major online activist for the CCP, “Bobbly Fletcher” engaged in presenting CCP propaganda on talk, de-tracking discussions, removal of content from the articles, etc. His presence on Misplaced Pages, and his disruptive activities were continually encouraged and supported by ], who himself, as evidence above clearly demonstrates, has blanked vast amounts of info critical of the CCP from these articles. | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required): | |||
# Warning by {{user|TheSoundAndTheFury}} | |||
# Warning by {{user|Asdfg12345}} | |||
# Warning by {{user|Asdfg12345}} | |||
# Warning by {{admin|AGK}} | |||
# Warning by {{admin|AGK}} # Warning by {{admin|<Username>}} | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
;Enforcement action requested (], ] or ]) : Topic ban from articles related to the Chinese Communist Party. | |||
===Discussion concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : <Your text> | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Marlarkey==== | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : ''The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a ] of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.'' | |||
{{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} is repeatedly reverting edits which are removing information outside the scope of the page in question. My edits are validly citated within the scope of the page. {{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} has cited WP:ARBPIA but that is not relevant to THIS article which is not a Palestine-Israel article. This article is not a contentious topic - it is factual. | |||
===Discussion concerning PCPP=== | |||
My edits are WP:NPOV. This article is about declarations of war - the opening statement states "A declaration of war is a formal act by which one state announces existing or impending war activity against another." | |||
====Statement by PCPP==== | |||
1. Hamas is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hamas should not be included in the article | |||
I really don't see how the FLG sanctions can apply to any CCP-related article, as Dilip claimed. Dilip's personal attacks again Bobby Fletcher and rant about the PRC's "web spies" demonstrates exactly why I have difficulties working with him. | |||
2. Hezbollah is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hezbollah should not be included in the article | |||
3. Russia vs Ukraine are both nation states - the question then is whether there has been a declaration of war. | |||
In the case 1 & 2, the removal of these two entries is WP:NPOV and the inclusion or otherwise in this article is in no way a comment on the conflict in question - only whether they constitute a declaration of war by one nation state on another. Which they do not because they are nation states. | |||
1) | |||
In the case of 3, the inclusion of Russia vs Ukraine only relies on whether there has been a declaration of war. The citation I gave is documented evidence of Russia announcing that a state of war exists between Russia and Ukraine. | |||
I in fact shortened the paragraph to: | |||
I suggest that by taking the action they have that the complainant is the one acting in a that asserts a political opinion about the conflict | |||
<blockquote> | |||
The name of the body draws from of its date of formation: June 10, 1999. According to the 2008 Congressional Executive Commission Report on China, the 6-10 Offices maintain extrajudicial 'transformation through reeducation' (jiaoyu zhuanhua) facilities, where Falun Gong practitioners are subjected to various methods of physical and psychological coercion until they recant their belief in Falun Gong."<ref name=CER/> | |||
</blockquote> | |||
I summarized the statement into proper English, which is perfectly acceptable within editing guidelines. When Dilip doesn't agree with with such changes, he reverts the entire article, along with everything else that goes along with it. | |||
The reference by Weatherwriter to 21 November 2024 - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Is only a partial quote - what I actually said was "I don't give a stuff about what you or Israel say about the declaration. I care about whether it is in the scope of this page." | |||
2-5) | |||
The key is the final point - the scope of this article and whether the edits are validly cited in accordance with the topic of the article...namely a list of declarations of war. | |||
Weatherwriter reversions of my edits serve to support a political opinion on a page which is about facts. | |||
Dilip himself added a large amount of questionable statements from a single unverified source from a political website , and completely destroyed the POV balance of the article. The only source I ended up removing was his; which is neither peer-reviewed or have any results on google scholar per ]. I've rearranged most of the article in a more readable fasion, and restored and attributed several others. | |||
'''I'm pretty angry about being accused in this way when MY edits were factually based and neutral point of view, whereas by reverting my edits it does precisely the opposite, allowing contentious and politically biased information to infect the page.''' GRRRRRRrrr | |||
5-6) | |||
] (]) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
That was a content dispute between me and another editor. I've since discussed with the editor, who agreed that my edits has merits. | |||
7) | |||
On another point, following me reviewing the information in this complaint by WeatherWriter... | |||
All I did was shuffle a couple of paragraphs around and removed one sentence that is not relevent to the article topic. I only edited that article once, and was immediatle reverted by asdfg in its entirity. | |||
"If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)" The complainant cites a link to information which I have JUST accessed and have never seen before just now. I was NOT aware of this information so it is false to suggest that this constitutes evidence that I was aware. | |||
Again this makes me angry at the accusations being made against me. If you don't want people editing and contributing to[REDACTED] then please just say so. GRRR | |||
8) | |||
] (]) 00:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I give up... I'm being accused and being told off for responding to the accusation. I don't know anything about this procedure, have never seen this page before and know nothing about how this works because its new to me. | |||
*:But I get it - I'm not part of the club that decides things... so I'll let you get on with that. ] (]) 00:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::<small>(Moved from WeatherWriter's section</small> I get it - you'd rather call me out by this procedure than have an accurate encyclopaedia article. You've made accusations against me and put me through this over restrictions that I knew nothing about and policies I knew nothing about. I simply came across something inaccurate and followed what I understood to be WP principles and made an objectively accurate edit. | |||
::::So now the end result is that an inaccurate article containing a politically biased assertion is going to stay live. ] (]) 02:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*<!-- | |||
--> | |||
{{u|Marlarkey}}, you have gone a bit over your 500 word allotment for responses. Please do not comment further unless directly asked to. I will remove an additional reply that was both over your limit and in the wrong section. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 00:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::{{u|Weather Event Writer}}, extension granted as that's essentially what Marlarkey has already taken. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 01:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Asdfg removed a large amount of material regarding Maoism, including the template and two web sources. I restored the sources and properly attributed them. | |||
Ok, having now reviewed ]'s page history, its talk page discussion, and Marlarkey's contributions more generally, I find that: | |||
9) | |||
:* Marlarkey has repeatedly violated ] at ] since having received a CTOP notice | |||
:*Irrespective of whether it is correct or not to include the Israel-Hamas war, Israel-Hezbollah war, or wars between states and non-state entities more broadly, WeatherWriter's edits to the page are plainly not ], which has a specific (and serious) meaning on Misplaced Pages | |||
:*It appears to be a long-term status quo to include non-state entities provided that there is a citation to some sort of formal declaration of war, and the page's inclusion of conflicts involving non-states ] and ] do not appear to have been challenged at any point. | |||
:*Marlarkey is incorrect to assert that their edit is {{tq|objectively accurate}}. Whether the edit is accurate is subject to community consensus, and the talk page arguments in favor of inclusion base themselves on RS reporting which is a valid, policy-compliant argument. Marlarkey's arguments that a declaration of war can only occur be between two states do not make any reference to a reliable source stating this; while that text is currently in the lead of the article, it does not have a citation nor is it clear that any citation in the article directly backs this. | |||
:*In light of discussion at ], which at this point shows multiple editors in favor of keeping the Hamas and Hezbollah wars, only Marlarkey firmly for removing them, and one other editor calling for discussion as of December 31st, Marlarkey's edits to unilaterally remove the entries in January amount to slow-motion edit warring | |||
:*Given that Marlarkey has had an account for well over a decade, has edited a wide variety of topics, hit 500 edits while this was happening, does not appear to have otherwise shown interest in Israel/Palestine topics, and that the edits at Declaration of war don't fit into any clear POV-warrior pattern, I don't think that pulling extended-confirmed or issuing a PIA topic ban would help. | |||
I'm thus inclined to suggest an indefinite partial block from ] (but not its talk page) as a regular admin action for edit warring, and a logged warning to be mindful of CTOP standards. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC | |||
*As Marlarkey stated that they were unaware of CT, I wanted to confirm that I double checked and found that the CT notice was properly left in November. If Marlarkey chose not to read it, well, that's rather on him—we can only leave messages, we can't force people to read them. I would otherwise agree with Rosguill's assessment. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 12:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I entirely endorse Rosguill's reading of this. I am not happy about Marlarkey's approach to our restrictions, but I don't see this as EC gaming, and I can't see how pulling EC rights could be justified at this stage. As such I endorse the proposed page block and logged warning. Marlarkey, you seem to believe that because you are right on the substance you can ignore process and guidelines - that simply isn't true. The arbitration committee has consistently held that ]; you need to be able to edit within the scope of our policies. ] (]) 17:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* Pretty much everything Rosquill said. {{u|Marlarkey}}, it doesn't look like you have a huge amount of experience working in ]s. I'm sorry you're finding this upsetting, but CTOPs are a whole 'nother world, and you're either going to have to learn how to nonproblematically work there, or not work there. ] (]) 18:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:FWIW, the CTOP warning was ]. You've got your archiving set so aggressively that you may be missing a lot of messages, and it's completely plausible that you missed this one, which was only on your talk for two days, and after it was left you didn't edit for a month. However, we do assume that if you've got your archiving set that aggressively, you're keeping on top of anything important by checking your notifications to make sure you didn't miss anything. | |||
*:You can probably prevent this happening in future by having your talk page archive ''no more frequently than you typically go between editing sessions'', leaving maybe the five most recent messages unarchived, and/or being sure to check your notifications when logging back in. Any one of those three and you've have likely seen the notification. ] (]) 18:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{hatb}} | |||
==DanielVizago== | |||
And ignore the fact that I added a large amount of info regarding the thought reform movement. The source I removed was from 1969 and no longer up to date, and contradicted by the info I added. I even searched google scholar for asdfg's claims, and found nothing as it claimed. | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
10) | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Schazjmd}} 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|DanielVizago}}<p>{{ds/log|DanielVizago}}</p> | |||
The terminology itself was highly disputed, the sources themselves didn't even come to an conclusion, and an AFD on the terminology didn't even come to a clear concensus . I referred to the Chinese's government's official label of the campaign per ] | |||
11) | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
The source is disputed on talk page and reached the concensus that it is misattributed. | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
12) | |||
# Added ] to a BLP, after CTOP notification and several talk page messages notifying DanielVizago that the category is not to be applied to articles about individuals (per category description, {{tq|This category is for issues relating to misandry. It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly misandrist.}}); | |||
# and Removing sourced content from ] that states misandry is not a major an issue as misogyny; | |||
# Changing content in ] to emphasize misandry (reverted by another editor with edit summary {{tq|rv, poorly sourced (sources supplemented by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH), earlier version was better, closer to sources}}); | |||
# Added "bimisandry" to ], citing 4 sources, none of which include that term; | |||
# 14 Jan 2025, weird edits adding ] with piped names to unrelated articles, then those names directly to the category page; | |||
# restored the "bimisandry" edit to ], then a 5th ref that includes the term but is just a blog; I left a 4th-level warning on talk page; | |||
# (after final warning) adds <nowiki>] and ]</nowiki> to ]; those two individuals don't have articles and there is no mention in this article of their charges or convictions, even though the category solely consists of {{tq|articles of female individuals who have been convicted of rape in a court of law.}} | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
I am within my right to question such sources per ], and within my right to remove sources that lacks peer review or citation and is used to push a single POV. | |||
*None | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
I find the current situation utterly ridiculous. No matter what I add, the FLG camp always find minor excuses over a couple of paragraphs or labels, and revert my edits entirely because of it. Dilip himself has a habit of disappearing for months, completely ignore the changes and concensus that has since ocurred, and revert back to his preferred version with little discussion. It's even more ludicrous that I have to document every change to single-purpose accounts that are used to promot Falun Gong.--] (]) 07:48, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*I alerted them on | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning PCPP ==== | |||
Above diffs are all edits ''after'' the CTOP notification was provided. Before then, DanielVizago misapplied ] to 46 articles, which is what caught my attention. Their attempts to add "bimisandry" to ] started . On 28 Dec 2024, DanielVizago added a lot of content to ] about misandry, which another editor with edit summary {{tq|remove recently added pro-fringe section and put back the excerpt}}. Most of their 122 edits have been reverted by multiple editors. | |||
=====Comment by Asdfg12345===== | |||
PCPP focuses on picking apart the contributions of others, and watering down the parts that aren't too friendly to the Chinese Communist Party. His behaviour is consistently destructive, and it, along with the explicit and implicit support he receives for it, has seriously eroded my will to contribute to this project (among other things.) Recently he has refined his methods, too. Instead of outright blanking, he just blanks some parts and weakens others; instead of saying ''nothing'', he says a few perfunctory words and discredits the other editors intentions; instead of doing zero research, he does a bit. He is a drag on contributing, and exerts a net negative influence. He only destroys the value of others' contributions, rather than bringing his own ideas and sources to the table and working together for how to incorporate the different viewpoints. He only says the viewpoint of this or that scholar (it would seem, actually, ''every'' scholar who has documented the crimes of the CCP) is POV and tries to delete it or weaken it, without any regard for NPOV, which calls for all significant views to be represented. He has recently deleted swathes of material from several articles, then writes misleading edit summaries and notes on the talk page. What's even more bizarre is how the editors calling for my downfall don't care when he does this stuff. It's a bit farcical. I have left maybe a dozen notes to PCPP saying how I would like to work with him, asking him to explain himself, asking him to bring sources to the table that support the POV he wants to see introduced. But he doesn't play ball and just rebukes it all, going right ahead with the deletions and whatnot. It's a very effective technique, to be honest. At the very least, it's dampened my usually boundless enthusiasm--at least enough to take a break from all this for a while. I'll be back, but hopefully he won't be around. (Note: if he changed his approach and started doing research, and discussed his changes nicely, I would love to work with him. He has robust opinions on these subjects that, if sources can be found to support them, need to be represented and explained. But his focus on destroying my work really gets to me. I asked him to just paste onto the talk page stuff he deletes from now on. Maybe that will help. Though his deletions of any mention of the word "indoctrination" or "struggle session" goes on.) --<font style="bold">]</font><font color="black" style="bold">]</font> 05:20, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
Before the level 4 warning, I guiding DanielVizago away from CTOP; they don't engage on their talk page. (They've posted there once, to say "thanks" in response to a warning.) With their refusal to communicate, poor sourcing, and non-NPOV edits, I don't think they should be editing in this topic area. ] ] 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by PhilKnight===== | |||
The only relevant evidence is that which relates to the Falun Gong. The rest could be relevant to the ], but shouldn't be listed here. ] (]) 16:48, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
=====Comment by Epeefleche===== | |||
* | |||
The nom raises some points here that deserve close examination (which I've not had time for at the moment), and if which accurate should likely be addressed in some manner, though I agree with Phil that the only relevant information is that which relates to the Falun Gong, which does not appear to be the focus of many of the above diffs.--] (]) 07:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning PCPP=== | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
*<s>I would propose a topic ban of two weeks from ] and connected articles. ] (]) 10:59, 11 March 2010 (UTC)</s> I can't see any {{tl|uw-sanctions}} left for PCPP, which is a prerequisite for discretionary sanctions to be applied. I have left it now, but unless there is further inappropriate behaviour, the request will be closed with no action. ] (]) 11:01, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
Am moving the case to ANI. A wide range of articles are involved, and this behavior of the user has continued for years. The above user has not contributed anything to these pages in terms of research, and, at the same time, baselessly attacks other editors to deviate attention and cover up his disruption of these pages. | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by DanielVizago==== | |||
] (]) 05:09, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by caeciliusinhorto==== | |||
:I take the above to be a retraction of the request and am closing it as no action per Stifle. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 17:43, 15 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
Since this report was opened, DanielVizago has continued to make questionable edits adding articles to ]. | |||
* , categorising a living person who has been accused (but not charged, let alone convicted) of sexual assault as a rapist (cf. ]) | |||
{{hab}} | |||
* adds the category to a disambiguation page on the basis of one of the people listed on that page, who had in fact been convicted not of rape but of | |||
* and edit categorise two sexually-motivated murderers as rapists despite no evidence that they ever raped anyone in the article (cf. ]) | |||
] (]) 10:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Dilip rajeev == | |||
{{cot|Further action deferred pending the outcome of moderated discussion.}} | |||
''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' | |||
===Request concerning Dilip rajeev=== | |||
'''User requesting enforcement:'''<br> | |||
] ] 05:29, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Simonm223==== | |||
'''User against whom enforcement is requested:'''<br> | |||
{{userlinks|Dilip rajeev}} | |||
Might be wise, as long as doing so wouldn't interfere with evidence, to get a revision deletion on some of the diffs presented above that make unfounded statements about BLPs. ] (]) 18:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''Sanction or remedy that this user violated:'''<br> | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
*]: "''] and all closely related articles are placed on ]. It is expected that the articles will be improved to conform with ], and that information contained in them will be supported by ] information from ]. The articles may be reviewed on the motion of any arbitrator, or upon acceptance by the Arbitration Committee of a motion made by any user. Users whose editing is disruptive may be banned or their editing restricted as the result of a review. ''Passed 7 to 1 at 06:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)''" | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
*] | |||
*] | |||
*] | |||
===Result concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
'''] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it:'''<br> | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<div class="boilerplate metadata discussion-archived" style="background-color: #FFFFE0; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;"> | |||
;Some recent diffs immediately below, show a continuation of the ''modus operandi'' described previously and also reminder below: | |||
*I've p-blocked from article space to see if we can get this editor communicating. ] (]) 12:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
;1/ ] & ]: | |||
*I want to hear what they have to say, but I'm going to need a fairly convincing explanation as to how they're here to build an encyclopedia and not to POV-push men's rights activism content where it doesn't belong. The IDHT and spammy behavior and the BLP vios on top of that aren't super encouraging, either, but if they decide to communicate, I'm happy to reassess. ] (] • she/her) 22:56, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''''FOR THE RECORD''': at 01:45, 19 July 2009'' | |||
*:I'd like to hear what they have to say, too, but I'm also not averse to letting this archive with no further action since the p-block is an indef. I've left another message at their talk. ] (]) 13:41, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*<!-- | |||
--> | |||
] | |||
<font color=tomato>On 6 March 2010, with , Dilip rajeev rolls back of the article to the version of '''19 July 2009</font>'''. | |||
==Ekdalian== | |||
Note that he was opposed in this endeavour, and . He , plus substantial rewrite. His actions crushed innumerable edits to the article since his last visit, and completely ignored the splitting of the article of the article into History of Falun Gong. In a talk page , in justification, he appears to deny that he's turning the clock back. | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Ekdalian=== | |||
<blockquote>Of course, Dilip rajeev's habit of making radical reverts is a now firmly a matter of historical record. Some examples of this tendency are below: | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|NXcrypto}} 03:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*, made following an absence of 12 days, undid 36 intermediate edits made by others during this time. | |||
* is his first intervention as Diip rajeev since the of Inactive user account. He reverted 43 edits made by others while he was away for 26 days' absence. | |||
* 44 edits by others in one fell swoop after 7 days' absence | |||
* and .</blockquote> | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Ekdalian}}<p>{{ds/log|Ekdalian}}</p> | |||
;2/ ] | |||
To note that he stopped editing on 4 November 2009, and returned on 26 January 2010 (), since when he has been to 'Propaganda', which included deliberate use of ] ("''skew public and international opinion in favor of its policies''") in the opening sentence of the lead and without proper attribution; comments in the third paragraph attributed to Brady were stripped of this attribution. I was alerted to a problem when I received a to look at the NPOV of the article. | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
Since his return, he has been edit-warring with a number of other editors, and has been particularly vehemently opposed on a number of articles by {{User|PCPP}}, who is no saint himself and has aggressive tendencies. In recent weeks, he and PCPP have been at loggerheads, trying to outdo each other in terms of aggression and open hostility. In view of the AE on PCPP, I will not expand here. | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
;3/ ] | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
In the last few days, Dilip rajeev has warred with PCPP and others: | |||
* | |||
* | |||
* | |||
</div> | |||
I really don't have the patience for this any longer; I have already given up editing Falun Gong articles. Nevertheless, I would re-open this request hoping that something be done about that user's persistent Falun Gong advocacy, NPOV editing and aggressive edit-warring. This is particularly important because the disruption has now spilled over onto, and threatens to poison the editing ambiance at, all articles which touch upon the ] or the governance of the People's Republic of China - the central goal of the Falun Gong movement is contributing to the downfall of the CPC. | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
This renewed request is updated with '''the latest evidence''' of highly disruptive behaviour by {{User|Dilip rajeev}}, who has been editing almost exclusively Falun Gong articles, or those which touch upon Falun Gong - namely Propaganda on the People's Republic of China - . In fact, my previous AE request was against him ; the closing admin commented: {{cquote|Dilip rajeev has mostly refrained from reverting and engaged in discussion. Since the reversions happen so infrequently (3 times in 2 months), a revert restriction would be of very little value.}} | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
# - Restoring recently added disputed content, contrary to ] | |||
# - Casting unsubstantiated aspersions and poisoning the well against another editor. | |||
# - Poisoning the well against another user without any evidence of misconduct. | |||
# - Restoring recently added disputed content again and essentially asking to get consensus for it, contrary to ]. | |||
# - Performs a blanket revert in order to make a ], just because their previous edit was reverted, despite it being the version that was arrived upon by a month long discussion on , also saying "LE also wants to discuss and revisit the content proposed by the sock" , LukeEmily later elaborated that they are okay with the version that Ekdalian was actually reverting | |||
# - Same as above but edit warring | |||
# - Edit warring and casting aspersions saying that reverting editor is acting like the blocked sock {{noping|Nobita456}} "stop behaving like Nobita please" | |||
# - Attacks and tries to poison the well against another editor also says that "WP:ONUS doesn't mean you need to achieve consensus with editors condemned by admins for persistent POV pushing! " | |||
# - Restores the aforementioned attack saying "Related to the content only, related to WP:CONSENSUS to be precise; accept the truth, I don't want to report minor incidents" when told to focus on content | |||
# - calling a ] edit as vandalism and issues final warning for vandalism | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.--> | |||
# Explanation | |||
# Explanation | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
In my experience, rajeev has shown ] when non-FG devotees edit Falun Gong article. There has been a long history of unchecked edit warring, even over the placement of {{tl|NPOV}} tags. Such tags are routinely removed (as ) with not so much as a 'how do you do', as if the contents suddenly become neutral when the tag disappears. Reverts are usually very provocatively done - blind and wholescale, often destroying many intervening edits which have accurate and well-reasoned edit summaries - and any ensuing discussion makes clear that the user is always 'right' and anyone who opposes him 'wrong'. Anything which is sourced from sources he approves of have a right to stay and any sources he disapproves of are "CCP propaganda" or somesuch. Dilip rajeev's tendency to introduce ironic quotes (like ) and ] are already mentioned above. Not only is he completely and blindly partisan, Dilip rajeev often expresses points of view which are unique; his style and content introduced have been frowned upon from time to time by most others, and also by asdfg. | |||
*Has a <nowiki>{{Ds/aware|ipa}}</nowiki> template for the area of conflict on their own talk page. and notified of WP:ARBIPA by Dennis Brown in 2022 | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
Dilip rajeev's stated view that nothing from the Chinese authorities is worthy of citing because it is ] propaganda demonstrates a basic lack of understanding of what is ]. He is known to endlessly pontificate on moral questions, and ] citing paragraphs of WP:RS and WP:NPOV to support whatever position he favours in regards to a certain link or source. He maintains a which he uses as Falun Gong advocacy. It seems that he passionately believes the persecution of Falun gong practitioners at the hands of the Chinese authorities, and is unable to put these views to one side when he is editing; and when he edits, it is with such great fervour and aggression that leaves little or no place for others who wish to contribute. | |||
I also note that Ekdalian has a history of aggressive edit warring in the contentious topic as a part of slow running edit war.On , many of their most recent edits have been reverts to prevent content addition as well. It has gotten to the point where experienced users like {{noping|Sitush}} have called them out for it because they usually misrepresent the consensus or comments by editors such as Sitush to claim that consensus already exists when there is none, they do not provide diffs when asked to substantiate their claims either. They have been reprimanded in past over similar conduct about misrepresentation and exaggeration by {{ping|Dennis Brown}} on this venue as well. They have a history of attacking other users and trying to poison the well against them instead of ] as diffs above prove. | |||
I am not seeking any topic bans but Ekdalian should be at least told not to misuse the talk page for adding more fuel into heated disputes, and use the revert button only when it is necessary. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 03:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{User|Dilip rajeev}} has a habit of disappearing (i.e. not editing in article space or talk space) for weeks or months on end. When he returns, he frequently reverts to the last version he feels comfortable with irrespective of the individual merits of each of the changes because the changes which took place were not to his liking. In view of his return and his manifestly unrepentant behaviour, I would reopen the case, seeking an '''indefinite site ban'''. Such reverts are usually done without due reference to the discussions which have taken place during his absence. | |||
I'm unimpressed by your defence of #10, it was an unsourced change, sure disruptive but not vandalism (which has a very specific meaning). Please refer to ]. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 07:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Today, he hypocritically initiated an AE case against same (). | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
;Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):<br> | |||
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. --> | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
# | |||
# | |||
*He was given on 16 May 2009. | |||
===Discussion concerning Ekdalian=== | |||
'''Enforcement action requested (], ] or ]):'''<br> | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Ekdalian==== | |||
I believe that, in view of his continued disruption and the total lack of any mitigating collaborative successes, an '''indefinite ban from Misplaced Pages would now be in order. | |||
I have nothing to say as such! I have been serving Misplaced Pages since 2013, particularly related to contentious caste articles, fighting against caste promotion, POV pushing and vandalism. Heated debates are common in the contentious topics. I have neither violated 3RR, nor abused any editor! Yes, in case someone has been topic banned and condemned by admins, I do mention the same so that NPOV is not violated. Many admins are aware of my activities including SPI, anti-disruption and anti-vandalism. Thanks & Regards. ] (]) 06:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Dilip rajeev is a Falun Gong practitioner, and edits Falun Gong articles ] since 2006 along with a team of 3 other very easily identifiable FLG activist editors - {{user|asdfg12345}}, {{user|Olaf Stephanos}}, and {{user|HappyInGeneral}}. After the ban of Anti-FLG users Sam Luo and Tomanada, this group of Falun Gong practitioners have seemingly ] all Falun Gong-related articles. All four users, to varying degrees, erase critical content, engage in lengthy advocacy commentary on talk pages, ] against other editors. Rajeev in particular shows very little respect for any users who wish to bring balance to articles, by sundry ] and tendentious editing. These attempts (amongst others) by fellow activist asdfg to rein him in have never had much effect. | |||
:Action (warning) may be taken against NXcrypto for being unable to identify vandalism (refer to point number 10), and wasting the time of our admins! Thanks. ] (]) 06:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Nxcrypto, it is a clear case of vandalism. The user intends to misrepresent and project their caste as ] (higher status among Bengali Kayasthas) by intentionally changing Eastern (Bengal) to Western! Moreover, the user has done similar vandalism in multiple articles only in order to promote Western Bengali Guhas. Thanks. ] (]) 08:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*In response to Bishonen's comments, I would like to inform here that Sitush is referring to my response at a time when {{u|Nobita456}}'s sock was driving a discussion and I had filed an SPI! Therefore, I was delaying the discussion in order to eliminate the sock from the same. Sitush has been quoted out of context! Thanks. ] (]) 12:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Dilip rajeev creates an ambiance of intolerance and hostility, leaving behind a trail of breaches of ], 3RR and other guidelines wherever he goes. He is responsible, in whole or in part, for driving away a number of neutral editors from the Falun Gong articles. His editing Sathya Sai Baba demonstrate his propensity to be controversial; his forays there are nothing short of ]. He has demonstrated that he is incapable of working with others who do not share the same views as himself, and I am regrettably of the conclusion, after observing numerous attempts by myself and other editors to discuss, negotiate and mediate, and after many months of suffering his various antics and ], that Misplaced Pages is best off without him. A wholescale indefinite ban is warranted to end this editor's disruption of wikipedia, once and for all. | |||
*:{{u|Orientls}}, the user has already been blocked for vandalism; I have years of experience in this area and quite sure of what I have mentioned! Thanks. ] (]) 06:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:{{ping|Bishonen}} I have clearly mentioned that I am not sure! But, {{u|Orientls}} seems to be so sure that they have stated that I am 'falsely' accusing him of meatpuppetry! How can you be so sure that there has been no mail exchanges? Orientls, do you think you are God? Regards. ] (]) 06:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Orientls==== | |||
:It has now been demonstrated that Dilip rajeev is a dedicated Falun Gong ] with an agenda to advocate the Falun Gong cause. His prior involvement in editing ] articles, another 'hot topic' which has already been the subject of two Arbcom cases, is also of record. He is a ] whose aggressive and partisan edits have been the subject of numerous comments and complaints from other users, including fellow practitioner ]. Dilip rajeev has been warned repeatedly against edit-warring, and has been blocked a number of times - the was a 3 month topic ban; prior to that was a block of 55 hours. He does not appear to have learned anything,nor does he seem to realise that he narrowly escaped sanction by making an opportune disappearance from Misplaced Pages. I believe it is now time to send the message that such behaviour is not acceptable anywhere on Misplaced Pages. ] ] 05:29, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
I find this comment by Ekdalian unpalatable: "The user intends to misrepresent and project their caste as Kulin Kayastha." How are you so sure of their caste? I don’t see where they have self-identified as such, and you also accuse them of attempting to project "their caste'" with another one by "vandalising" Misplaced Pages, which is a serious accusation against a new editor. I think an editor of your tenure should be able to recognize what constitutes vandalism because those edits are not vandalism, you should also refrain from speculating about the caste of editors. | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : ''The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a ] of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.'' | |||
reasoning seems odd, especially when Sitush himself states: "CharlesWain began this discussion. They are not a sock, are they?" , implying that you were opposing changes proposed by an editor who was not a sock by misrepresenting Sitush's comments. I also think canvassing was inappropriate, particularly with its problematic heading, "Kind attention: Bishonen and admins active here." It sounds as if you are trying to recruit people to back you up here. | |||
*http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Dilip_rajeev&diff=348906563&oldid=348567851 | |||
Honestly, I’m not surprised by the diffs cited in the report, especially if your conduct at ARE is like this where your edits are under scrutiny. | |||
===Discussion concerning Dilip rajeev=== | |||
{{ping|Bishonen}} While the filer himself made it clear that he is not "seeking any topic bans", Ekdalian deserves a topic ban following this . By calling an editor with almost 4k edits a "comparatively new user" and falsely accusing him of "meatpuppetry", Ekdalian has proven he is not capable of editing here without poisoning the well and making personal attacks. ] (]) 03:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Dilip rajeev==== | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
I have done few edits after the same user filed a similar case against me in which I was found innocent. I wont say much here except that I have not edit warred on any of these pages. I am given all kinds of labels from "vandal" to "sockpuppet" by these users attacking me. I merely request that I may please be judged by my contributions, by the diffs, by the content I have contributed to wikpedia - not by claims, not substantiated by any evidence, from those who seek to impose these labels on me. What he presents as "Evidence of edit warring" is PCPP's whole-scale blanking of content which happened between my contributions. And there are no multiple reverts from my side. | |||
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===Result concerning Ekdalian=== | |||
I was among the first to draw editors attention, and collect sources to improve that article which was almost completely ignored. Based on painstaking research, I made significant contributions to the article which, back then, carried almost no sourced content: | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*I will point out that I was ] by Ekdalian. That said, I'll state that I don't think NXcrypto's diffs are anything much; it's surely a stretch to call them "casting apersions" and "poisoning the well" and the like, especially in the IPA area where the tone is often sharp. The comments by Sitush are a little more concerning, though. ] | ] 10:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
==Alex 19041== | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
=== Request concerning Alex 19041 === | |||
The original state of the article was: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Propaganda_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China&oldid=327853510 | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement: {{userlinks|Est. 2021}} 16:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested: {{userlinks|Alex 19041}}<p>{{ds/log|Alex 19041}}</p> | |||
After my contributions: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Propaganda_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China&oldid=346242792 | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
'''( The above is the only set of major edits I have done since the same user filed a AE against me in which I was found innocent )''' | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] & ] | |||
The above contributions were labelled "vandalism" and "NPOV editing" by PCPP and his supporter OhConfucious. One of the first paragraphs of sourced content added to the article was blanked by Ohconfucius with a personal attack on me, the editor who contributed the content. His sole explanation for blanking ran: "rv Dilip rajeev - there is nothing wrong with it being a catalogue; just don't bring your Falun Gong agenda here". The material he blanks and attacks me for adding can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Propaganda_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China&action=historysubmit&diff=342416447&oldid=342311517 | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it: | |||
PCPP barged in and blanked all the content I added, and with no explanation. So obviously that edit ( for which he gave no explanation) was reverted me ( no multiple reverts -a single revert, and asking for an explanation from him). OhConfucius attempts to present this the other way round. I hope admins will take a careful look and see through the smoke created by these fake allegations. | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
# | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
Since a similar case filed by Ohconfucius, in which I was not found guilty, the above is the only major set of edits I have done. Regarding the intro I added, a full explanation can be seen here. I did not do multiple reverts when the material I considered a superset of the current info in the article was removed - but strove to explain my additions section by section. I absolutely did not engage in any repetitive reverts or edit warring. A full explanation of the intro can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Persecution_of_Falun_Gong#Regarding_the_intro | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: | |||
And "Inactive user account" was not "blocked". The user is repeating this allegation against me despite several clarifications I have made before. It was an alternate account I used to contribute to that article ( and '''all''' my contribution there were all based on the best available sources such as BBC, The Times, Guardian, DTV, Bayerstein, etc. And I had made significant contributions in terms of content there. I may please be observed that the sole reason I was attacked was that my contributions conflicted with the POV of certain users). The account was and renamed under the suggestion of an admin, to protect my privacy( it being a very sensitive topic in certain regions in India) when it was compromised. Also, I have not been active on the article for several months now. These are non-existent issues that the user frequently rakes up to attack me. | |||
* ] | |||
===Discussion concerning Alex 19041=== | |||
On the 6-10 Office article, I have absolutely not engaged in any edit-warring. I had raised legitimate concerns regarding PCPP's repetitive blanking of material sourced to Congressional Executive Reports, and distortion of sourced content in the lead. It is the very same issue I present in the AE case against PCPP above that Ohconfucius distorts to make it seems as if I am blanking PCPP: | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Alex 19041==== | |||
---- | |||
'''1. Article:'''] | |||
'''Nature of disruption:'''Repetitive blanking of sourced and centrally relevant material with no discussion presented.Concerns raised are ignored by the user. | |||
I have been made aware of the rules and will follow them in the future - I hope this suffices as a statement as I don't think there is anything worth adding that hasn't been said already | |||
The below content, drawing upon one of the few sources available on the topic, '''has been blanked 6 times by the user''' since its inception into the article. | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
<blockquote> | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
"According to the 2008 Congressional Executive Commission Report on China, "Publicly available government documents detail the central role of the 6-10 Office in the persecution of Falun Gong."<ref name=CER/> The report states: ""6-10 Offices throughout China maintain extrajudicial 'transformation through reeducation' facilities that are used specifically to detain Falun Gong practitioners who have completed terms in reeducation through labor (RTL) camps but whom authorities refuse to release. The term `transformation through reeducation' (jiaoyu zhuanhua) describes a process of ideological reprogramming whereby practitioners are subjected to various methods of physical and psychological coercion until they recant their belief in Falun Gong."<ref name=CER/>" | |||
</blockquote> | |||
===Result concerning Alex 19041=== | |||
The diffs: . | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
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--><span id="Est._2021:1737475502593:WikipediaFTTCLNArbitration/Requests/Enforcement" class="FTTCmt"></span> | |||
*To recap what's already been said at the initial hearing this got ], it has been identified that Alex19041 is not extended-confirmed, has now been made aware of the 30/500 editing restriction for PIA, has acknowledged that they should not make any edits to the topic, but has not quite acknowledged that they also should not make comments relating to the topic outside of article space. If they can acknowledge that, an IBAN would be unnecessary as they will not be engaging further with the discussion at-issue for some time. If they can't acknowledge that, we'd likely need to escalate to blocks, as there's no reason to expect the IBAN to be observed. Some concern was also raised that Est. 2021's replies to Alex 19041 included personal attacks, although it should be noted that Est. 2021 has made an effort to remove potentially-problematic statements from their prior comments at ARBCOM (sections on their talk page containing similar language have been removed entirely, which is within their purview on a user talk page). <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Concerns raised regarding this behavior, on the talk page is met with no response from PCPP, other than repeated blanking. | |||
*(came here from the ill-fated ArbCom case request). I agree with Rosguill. Some assurance from Alex 19041 and from Est. 2021 that they will leave the problematic edits behind would be good.] (]) 21:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I agree that the reported user needs to show some understanding that as a non-EC user, they need to leave this ] alone ''across all namespaces''. However, sanctions are for serious, ongoing problems, three unwelcome talk page posts made over the course of an hour does not strike me as sufficient cause for a formal iban. If there's more to it than that, it needs to be made clear, with diffs. ] ] 21:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*It doesn't look like {{u|Alex 19041}} has edited since the case started. Alex, if you are seeing this, you do need to come in here and respond. Ignoring this will not make it go away. ] (]) 15:33, 23 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==]-related pages== | |||
Together with the blanking, supported by neither discussion nor edit summary, the user distorts the lead of the article. The statement sourced to Congressional Executive Report on China, 2008: “This entity was charged with the mission of overseeing and carrying out the ], which commenced on July 22, 1999.”, is distorted by the user to “It is responsible for monitoring, studying and analyzing matters relating to ], and recommending policy measures for ], and also what the government calls "heretical cults" and "harmful ] organisations"; and for promptly notifying municipal party committees of trends and developments within "cults".”. The commentary added by the user is mis-attributed and not supported by any source. | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning ]-related pages=== | |||
---- | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Beeblebrox}} 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Pages about which enforcement is requested : ]-related pages | |||
Further, I would like to humbly request that if the charges made against me are seen to be baseless, appropriate disciplinary action be taken against these users who've been hounding me around[REDACTED] and making contributing to these pages almost impossible. | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
This case shortly follows my presenting . In my experience, such attacks serve as a mechanism for attention-diversion. Making it seem as if it is a mere to-and-fro exchange of accusations. Hence, I request admins to take a deep, solid look at the evidence I present . | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
In summary, I would like to point out: | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
I ''think'' this is the right place to ask for this? Requesting an expansion of ] to cover all articles related to ], as it has unfortunately become a political hot-button issue as the POTUS made it a prioroty on his first day back in office to sign an executive order to revert the name of the mountain back to "Mt. McKinley". | |||
*I have not done multiple reverts to any page. I had made clear my rationale for changes on talk, and have not, even for a single additional time, attempted to push any major change, when countered by another editor. On the ] page, I explain the paragraphs I later added fully on talk. | |||
In the past twenty-four hours there has been heavy editing/disruption in articles and on related talk pages and protection has been needed at several. ] was probably hit hardest, but ] got some too, as has ], which is explicitly not even part of the executive order. I wouldn't be surprised if the same issue is happening in ] related articles, but haven't checked for myself. ] ] 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*On the 6-10 article, and ], I request that my contributions be fully analyzed and then I be judged. I have not engaged in any contentious editing, and have not "warred" with any other user. On the other hand, I have contributed significant to these pages with sources of central relevance. All these content were blanked by PCPP. I have remained absolutely civil despite it, and did not engage in any repetitive revert or edit warring. The users channel attention to two edits which span months, in their attempt to put these labels on me - top make it seems as if I disruptively revert to old versions. I request I be judged by the entire history of my contributions. | |||
:Yeah, just checked Gulf of Mexico. 28 new talk page sections in the past day, was already ECP protected two weeks ago per ]. | |||
] (]) 10:27, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I kinda think a single admin could do this, but I am editorially involved and probably slightly too infuriated to be objective. ] ] 22:32, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Thanks for the replies, that's kind of what I thought, but again didn't want to act on it as I'm editorially involved. ] ] 22:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning Dilip rajeev ==== | |||
<!-- Add any further comment here --> | |||
=====Comment by Epeefleche===== | |||
Obviously, this is outrageous behavior. Just the sort that eats up valuable constructive editor time, without good reason, and poisons the project. I fully support the nomination, and urge that action be taken.--] (]) 06:00, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Asdfg12345===== | |||
Whether Dilip has recently engaged in edit warring should be able to be easily verified. I have looked at the pages in question and it seems obvious to me that he has not. Check the at the persecution page, for example. He only did one revert to an old version, then rewrote the lead. That was reverted then the page was locked. Two changes, not one a revert. So, that's not edit warring. If you look at the talk page, it's clear he's also trying to engage in discussion. | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
Similarly for the 610 Office, page. Just look at . That's like, two reverts/edits over a couple of days? And what was the substance of those changes? Adding back in a few paragraphs of sourced material and deleting some unsourced material. And it was all discussed on the talk page, but PCPP did not join in. This is typical. The same thing can be found at ]. At the 610 office article, another outside editor has now come in to revert PCPP. | |||
===Discussion concerning ]-related pages=== | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by ]-related pages==== | |||
Same again for the propaganda in the PRC page. Check and it becomes clear who is being destructive. I don't think Dilip has done a single revert on that page at all. Meanwhile, PCPP has deleted 10kb from the page calling it "POV"! It's a wonder that Ohconfucius does not spread his righteous indignation around a bit more. | |||
====Statement by Isabelle==== | |||
Overall, this seems to be an issue of editing dynamics and attitudes. It won't work to single one person out, and banning individuals when the evidence against them is summed up seems boneheaded, too. A recent, very clear illustration of how this is about attitudes is to be found on the Falun Gong talk page. Olaf Stephanos made , and Mrund sought to . A non-partisan editor went ahead with a few of the changes, which were not outrageous at all. In fact, they were just ''questions''. So the whole atmosphere is really, really hostile. For the record, I disagree with Dilip, and other editors, on any number of content issues. But I don't think people should be banned unless it's clear they're exhibiting bad faith and behaving destructively. I don't think either of those is the case for Dilip. | |||
Since I've protected Denali's talk page, I will comment here. I agree that we will be seeing serious issues in the coming month, considering all the shit the new president is throwing at the wall, but I believe the administrators are well equip to deal with this at the moment. I believe {{u|Valereee}} has protected the Gulf of Mexico's talk page, and I've dealt with Mount Denali's. We might need to apply more extensive protection during this coming month to stop the vandals, but current tools will do just fine. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 23:04, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Valereee==== | |||
There does not appear to be recent evidence (say, since mid-Feb) that Dilip has editwarred on any of the pages he has edited. Further, the nature of his edits is to add information and research. No claims have been made that Dilip has added information outside its prominence in reliable sources (i.e., actually violating WP:UNDUE), simply that he added information critical of the CCP. PCPP, on the other hand, has repeatedly edit warred to push his POV, and rather than adding any research, he just destroys the research of others. But anyway, I'm sorry to say it, but these cases seem to be as much about politics and image as they are about evidence. If Ohconfucius et al can make it look like they are a group of editors neutral on this subject, and Dilip is the pariah who relentlessly pushes his POV, then they win. That's what happened the last several times. --<font style="bold">]</font><font color="black" style="bold">]</font> 06:13, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
Pinged here: yes, I've semi'd Talk:Gulf of Mexico, yesterday for 24 hours, today for another 31. I dislike protecting a talk, but it was a burden for editors working there. ] (]) 23:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:100+ edits today on the article, which is EC protected. I feel like that's a lot. ] (]) 23:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Another point I would make is that while some of Ohconfucius's points have merit, most of it is rhetoric recycled from other spaces and times past, replayed here without recent diffs to back it up. Ohconfucius and I are good Wiki-friends by the way (seriously). --<font style="bold">]</font><font color="black" style="bold">]</font> 06:19, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
*Note that my remark is not blanket support for the editor in question. I want to emphasise that if the case is judged on ''recent'' contributions, since his long absence, then I don't think there's much to go on, and this case could have been opened without any reference to his recent edits. If this is supposed to address things he has done in the past though, that is different. My only other point would be that the user should be given a chance to correct his mistakes. He has been editing for about the last month now, with no edit warring or other infractions. If I was bringing an AE case against him, I would wait until he actually misbehaves ''now'' rather than seeking retribution for bygone sins. And I think it would be unfair not to note whether the user's patterns and attitude had changed since his absence. --<font style="bold">]</font><font color="black" style="bold">]</font> 02:39, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
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===Result concerning ]-related pages=== | |||
*To Jayen466: Yes, his massive revert was extreme, but there had been no editing on that page for months. He did a bold edit, and when it was wound back he did not seek to keep putting it in. Dilip has only recently started working towards consensus in discussions; but the same can't even be said for people like Colipon, Mrund etc. They blatantly attack anyone ''perceived'' as putting in things that make Falun Gong "look good." But they are quite content to be representatives of among the most cynical and negative anti-Falun Gong points of view. Filling the pages with bad things is okay, but putting in good things is bad. If you let either of these groups of editors have free reign on the pages they will turn it into their version of the truth. The anti-Falun Gong artists have done that quite successfully, all the while marginalising anyone who complains. It's high hypocrisy. Anyway, '''Dilip has not edit warred recently so there is no basis for this case.''' I suggest editors learn to work together rather than single out people they don't like, slap them with labels, then try to get them banned. --<font style="bold">]</font><font color="black" style="bold">]</font> 23:29, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
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*<!-- | |||
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:@]: AMPOL already covers "Post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed". I think that "broadly construed" would include Denali and Gulf of Mexico in the current moment. In any event, I think you'd want to go to ARCA, not here, for an amendment. ] (]/]) 22:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Also, ] is already ECP and ] has semi-protection. There's no protection on ], but I'm not seeing anything in the page history that would justify it.l ] (]/]) 22:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*AE couldn't expand the scope of an existing CT designation; only ArbCom could do that. But I don't think we need to. If the disruption is related to a current American politics controversy, that's clearly related to "post-1992 politics of the United States", and so is ''already'' in scope of the existing CT designation. So, I'd say just treat it as such. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 22:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==Callmehelper== | |||
=====Comment by Mrund===== | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
'''I am convinced''' that an indefinite site ban would be the most productive way to deal with Dilip rajeev. Dilip is a vandal and a propagandist SPA. He adds little or nothing of independent value, and he eats up enormous amounts of other contributors' wikilabour that could be put to much better use for the project. ] (]) 08:13, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Request concerning Callmehelper=== | |||
=====Comment by HappyInGeneral===== | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Srijanx22}} 18:30, 23 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
This is funny, check the number of edits Ohconfucius did to the article, then let's see who is ] it. Also the fact that the tone you use against any editor that you perceive pro-Falun Gong, is almost always hostile, is extremely telling. As far as I can tell you care only about your own ] and you are quite far as long as ] and well balanced ] goes. Anyway, who cares, I'll stop here as I don't have time to get into this anymore. --] (]) 09:27, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Callmehelper}}<p>{{ds/log|Callmehelper}}</p> | |||
=====Comment by Enric Naval===== | |||
Every few weeks Dilip reverts back to an older version, and he demands that other editors justify why his edits are wrong. That's placing WP:BRD completely upside-down, and he has done it so many times that he no longer has the excuse that he didn't know how to discuss in wikipedia. This is worsened by the pro-FG editors who revert back to Dilip's version and make the same demands. That is absolutely discouraging for the rest of editors. --] (]) 15:11, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
=====Comment by Seb az86556===== | |||
Those who want the situation in the proverbial nutshell, read Enric's statement above; fully endorse it. ] <sup>]</sup> 15:44, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
=====Comment by Colipon===== | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
Misplaced Pages administration: '''please settle this matter once and for all.''' The four aforementioned users have been using these Falun Gong articles as a battleground for years on end and apparently no one here gives enough of a damn to ban them all from the site. The evidence has been crystal clear and given no short of 20 times by various users and on various[REDACTED] dispute resolution venues. Scour through their contributions and it is immediately clear that their mission here is not to create an encyclopedia but to advocate for a cause - and be destructive while doing it. | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
I was once 'an outsider' to the Falun Gong articles. I hate the subject, I hate editing it, and I hate arguing about it. I now regret clicking that edit button when I saw the article was basically being used as a piece of Falun Gong promotional material. Falun Gong has been, without doubt, the worst experience I have ever had on this encyclopedia. At numerous points I have contemplated quitting Misplaced Pages altogether because of these articles on Falun Gong. They not only highlight the ineffectiveness of dispute resolution, but severely undermines the integrity and credibility of Misplaced Pages. | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
# - Violates copyrights | |||
# - Files a frivolous report against other editors, mislabels their edits as "vandalism" and then rudely responds to onlookers as also noted by Liz by saying "That's a very rude reply, Callmehelper." | |||
# - Mislabels an edit as "vandalism". | |||
# - Trying to get article on a non-notable subject created and not dropping the ]. | |||
# - Casts ] against the new page patrollers, and demeans them as "{{tq|people those rejected are so much had biased opinions that I can't discuss.}}" | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
Scientology has already set a precedent that this encyclopedia should have a zero-tolerance policy on new religious movements trying to paint themselves favorably, and Falun Gong articles are not any different. Anyone who edits Falun Gong to push for a point of view, and edits exclusively Falun Gong should be banned from the site for good - not some 6-month topic ban with the naive assumption that somehow this behavior would 'change' at the expiration of the ban. As we've seen, and as OhConfucius has pointed out - these SPA's editing now stretches to the 'second stage' of Falun Gong advocacy; i.e. when they are banned from Falun Gong, they edit against anything to do with the Communist Party of China. These are not edits in good faith and all of these edits should be stopped by imposing an indefinite site ban akin to those on Scientology. This is within the spirit of the arbcom decision and in line with Misplaced Pages's general principles. Administrators, this cannot go on. Do something about it. ]+<small>(])</small> 15:49, 10 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
:<small>Amen to that. --]<sup>] | ] | ]</sup> 05:09, 11 March 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
<!-- Add any further comment here --> | |||
=====Comment by Jayen466===== | |||
I will try to comment in more detail later on, when I have more time, but will say now that DR's edits have often been extreme and have consistently caused me concern, both in the Falun Gong and the Sai Baba topic areas. I would certainly support a topic ban restricting him to talk pages at this time. I'd have to look at his recent contributions in more detail before I could say whether a site ban is appropriate. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 00:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*Please note that Ohconfucius was the lead editor in taking the Falun Gong-related ] article to FA status. | |||
*A recent deep revert by Dilip Rajeev in ] turned the article into a piece of advocacy. | |||
*This recent edit in the ] FA turned the first paragraph of the lead into a very one-sided piece of advocacy. | |||
This is a highly contested topic area, and it is to be expected that editors with very diverse viewpoints participate. There are definite POV problems with editors on the other side of the debate too, trying to minimise the appalling persecution Falun Gong practitioners have suffered in China for the past decade, or wishing to deny that there is any persecution at all. However, Dilip Rajeev has not struck me as an editor who has been particularly good at, or interested in, working with opposing editors to build talk page consensus. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 11:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
;Response to Asdfg12345: I agree it is undesirable to have all editors from one side of a POV debate topic-banned. But if you edit essentially as a single-purpose account , Misplaced Pages requires you to be ''particularly'' circumspect about your POV. The way not to get topic-banned as a single-purpose account is to learn to ], rather than insisting that every edit one makes benefit one's own group. I see absolutely no evidence of this here. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 12:05, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Edward130603===== | |||
Dilip rajeev has unceasingly been a ultrapro-Falun Gong SPA. He leaves for periods of times and then comes back for a bunch of reverts. I suggest that dilip be banned indefinitely from all Falun Gong related topics.--''']''' (]) 02:12, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by PCPP===== | |||
Dilip is the type of editor that takes ] for granted and attempts to turn[REDACTED] into a promotional vehicle for Falun Gong. A glance through his editing history showed that he almost exclusively edits Falun Gong related articles since 2006, and has a habit of disappearing disappear for months, resurface, revert to an earlier version and disregard to all that has came between. His recent editing patterns are a continuation of his old habits on the , and articles. Discussions with this user is often fruitless, as he claims ] of the articles, and restores sources he likes irrespective of established consensus, while sources from the PRC government and others he doesn't like are routinely dismissed as "CCP propaganda" . | |||
Dilip has previously received 5 blocks and countless warnings on 3RR violations, disruptive editing, and edit warring previously on Falun Gong articles , previously operated two blocked socks responsible for edit warring on Sathya Sai Baba . He was also warned on inserting POV material on the Sai Baba articles in disregard of arbcom sanctions. After his many violations of[REDACTED] guidelines, it's really time to draw the line. Samuel Luo and Tomananda, dedicated anti-FLG activists, were indefinitely blocked because of similar revert behavior, while FLG editors Olaf, Happyingeneral and asdfg were given lengthy article bans for their activism. I fail to understand why Dilip, who's editing behavior is more severe than all other combined, is kept given second and third chances because of his habit to disappear.--] (]) 08:03, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
=====Request for a moment's pause by SilkTork===== | |||
There is a dialogue taking place on ] and a reasonable suggestion by Jayen that a moderated discussion take place. If Dilip_rajeev's concerns are legitimate they deserve to be closely examined. Sometimes people do not handle themselves as well as they might, and may well be disruptive; but that does not mean their concerns are not legitimate. I'd be more comfortable if we spent a little while fully investigating Dilip_rajeev's concerns in a non-threatening and impartial manner. If only one of Dilip_rajeev's concerns turn out to have some basis in fact, that will strengthen the article, and if they don't, and Dilip_rajeev has been through a fair and impartial review of his concerns, I feel that Dilip_rajeev will voluntarily withdraw from disruptive editing, so there will be no need for a "topic ban" that can be too easily subverted anyway. I am aware that moderated discussions do not always work; however, I am motivated by some of the comments that Dilip_rajeev has made on Jayen466's talkpage to feel that Dilip_rajeev will engage intelligently and honestly in a moderated discussion. Of course, having made this request, I feel I must offer myself as moderator. I suggest that if the discussion breaks down, that Dilip_rajeev is returned here, and the topic ban in enforced. <span style="border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;">''']''' *]</span> 12:03, 14 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Dilip rajeev=== | |||
The sanction referred to has been rescinded. Therefore this report is not actionable. ] (]) 11:02, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:(The article probation was not lifted, it was changed to ], see ]. The report should be actionable under those.) --] (]) 11:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Has the user been put on notice of the discretionary sanctions? What sanctions have been imposed, by whom, and when? Also, I do not propose to indefinitely block anyone here; that should go to ]. ] (]) 11:19, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::<s>This is so ] confusing. Probation, no probation, discretionary sanctions, is all Greek to me. What's notice of discretionary sanctions? This is such a collosal waste of time, as I spent one whole morning filing the case. Am I wrong to have brought the case here? I don't want to be given the run-around, so kindly tell me where I should go to get what the community wants.</s> ] ] 12:58, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::No, he hadn't been warned, I hsve left him a uw-sanctions template. Anyways, the desired outcome here would be an indefinite topic ban from Falun Gong topic. --] (]) 18:05, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::It should be an indefinite ban from the encyclopedia - as his edits on Sai Baba etc. have also been very contentious and destructive. ]+<small>(])</small> 22:03, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::Standard discretionary sanctions are in effect; he was also specifically warned about this behavior the last time he was brought to AE and was not sanctioned only because he promised not to continue these large reverts every time he pops up. Obviously he hasn't been able to stop that tendency, so I would suggest a break from the topic area is in order. ] <sup>]</sup> 12:35, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::As to warning, my view is that if the sanction being contemplated would be authorized under the old article probation, and the editor has notice of that probation, an additional warning by {{tl|uw-sanctions}} should not be required. ArbCom passed the discretionary sanctions to give admins all the tools they can use in this area, not to give the editors in the topic area a "get out of jail free" card before they are warned again.<p>I agree with Shell et al. that this behavior is disruptive, and under the totality of circumstances, I'm inclined to impose a topic ban, of indefinite duration, from editing ] and all related discussions and other content (including talk pages and process discussions, except only for legitimate and necessary dispute resolution). Comments are welcome. ] (]) 16:31, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::*As it looks like you are now contemplating a temporary topic ban, I would ask for the 'topic' be broadened to include any article which concerns the People's Republic of China, for the reasons stated above. ] ] 05:10, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:{{od2}} To avoid '']'' concerns, I'm unwilling to impose any sanction that would not have been authorized under the old article probation, which does not seem to be broad enough to cover all PRC related articles. ] (]) 07:57, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Is ANI the place to go for that? ] ] 11:57, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::Yes, the community can do that. Barring any objections, I'm planning to impose the topic ban in 24 hours. ] (]) 17:27, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::I think it would be reasonable to widen the topic ban to everything that has implications with Falun Gong - which is consistent with the spirit of the Arbitration decision - zero tolerance on advocacy and using Misplaced Pages as a battleground on both sides of the FLG-PRC equation. This common-sense approach means that "Propaganda in the PRC" article would be part of the topic ban, but "Chinese food" will not. "Propaganda of PRC" has been fertile breeding ground for Falun Gong activists since their narrow "topic ban" from ''strictly'' Falun Gong articles, but it is unmistakably Falun Gong activism that's taking advantage of this 'topic ban' technicality. <P>From discretionary sanctions: ''"The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors;"''. It is without a doubt that "Propaganda in the PRC" is within the "area of conflict" - not to mention that it is ''central'' to Falun Gong advocacy. Thus I think the rationale is very clear to support a wider ban that's within the realm of discretionary sanctions. ]+<small>(])</small> 01:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::I think we should hold off a little longer. The dispute surrounding Falun Gong and the People's Republic of China has been a longstanding one, and I believe the entire situation needs wider community input, which it is at present failing to attract. I would oppose banning Dilip Rajeev from Falun Gong talk pages, and the best way forward for the encyclopedia's content quality may be moderated discussions away from article space. We are dealing with important issues here; see e.g. . --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 09:56, 14 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::Sounds reasonable to me. Also per SilkTork, I'll hold on the topic ban. Since reverts seem to be the problem, what about an indefinite 0RR restriction on FLG-related articles? ] (]) 12:55, 14 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::I have left a message on Dilip rajeev's talkpage regarding the offer of a moderated discussion: ]. My message includes links to the appropriate sanctions, and a warning that failing to adhere to the points raised in those sanctions will result in a return here for a topic ban. I have given examples of some of the behaviours that would result in a return here, and that includes reverting. The matter is now in Dilip rajeev's own hands. I hope Dilip rajeev will take up the offer of the discussion so we can look into his concerns, but if he decides not to and instead returns to reverting or edit warring, then that will be his choice, and he is fully aware of the consequences. <span style="border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;">''']''' *]</span> 14:30, 14 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::::In any other articles I would have supported less stringent restrictions. But Falun Gong, this is just naive. Nothing good will come out of it. That article has been the battleground between Falun Gong and PRC supporters for years. But it's clear that the Communist Party has lost that war long, long ago, and they have never been taken that seriously anyway. The anti-Falun Gong users who have been banned as a result of the arbitration, interestingly, were ''not'' actually Communist Party supporters. Merely a few people who, in my view, felt that Falun Gong was promoting hatred of homosexuals and whose had very negative personal experiences with Falun Gong. Of course, I support their indefinite ban - because they have become too emotionally invested in the subject to edit or discuss objectively. After the ban of all "Anti-Falun Gong" editors, what resulted is a group of strengthened Falun Gong advocates who seize on the situation to turn those articles into Falun Gong propaganda pamphlets, not the least by arousing sympathy from the plight of Falun Gong within China. These editors have grew extremely sophisticated with their editing tactics over the years and now cite wikipolicies whenever possible while skirting the real pillars of Misplaced Pages - most notably WP:NPOV. These articles were essentially destroyed until July 2009, when Olaf Stephanos was banned. Since then the article has seen marked improvements - and in January 2010, two other SPAs, HappyInGeneral and Asdfg12345, have also been topic banned. Dilip Rajeev is the last SPA who have not been sanctioned with the topic ban, and it's safe to say that he is the worst of the four, which makes this situation rather humorous. I guess it really highlights the sophistication of Dilip's gaming-the-system tactics and his deep understanding on how to use wikipedia's policies to justify his advocacy. For that, kudos to him. I will be happy to engage in discussion with users who are not emotionally invested in this issue. But I refuse to do it with Falun Gong SPAs because I know their primary interest is to promote Falun Gong, not edit an encyclopedia. My past discussions with these users have all been consistently fruitless, and as new users enter Falun Gong wikispace they often feel so intimidated by the poisoned environment that they leave within a month. I hope the administrators truly understand the magnitude of the abuse this encyclopedia has suffered at the hands of Falun Gong advocates, and do something substantial to stop it once and for all. ]+<small>(])</small> 15:39, 14 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I concur. I've already given up with ] after Dilip's history of hostilities against me and other editors , basically dismissing anything that does not suit his POV as "CCP propaganda". Even behind all these guise of "discussion", Dilip's still trying to subvert consensus and restored merged articles .--] (]) 11:33, 15 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
Without further ado, I have at ANI. Nevertheless, if anything can be done here, I would ask that it be considered. ] ] 13:27, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*''"kindly tell me where I should go to get what the community wants"'' -- please don't try this one on. It's not what "the community wants," it's what you and a few others who want to crucify Dilip want. --<font style="bold">]</font><font color="black" style="bold">]</font> 23:17, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
**Thats a lot of "few others". Maybe it is a representation of the community?--''']''' (]) 02:16, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
***Oh, don't mind asdfg, he's in cynical mode. ] ] 02:23, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{cob}} | |||
== Gilabrand 2 == | |||
{{hat|{{user|Gilabrand}} blocked for a week.}} | |||
===Request concerning Gilabrand=== | |||
; User requesting enforcement : ] (]) 06:05, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Gilabrand}} | |||
;Sanction or remedy that this user violated : ] and . | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
# <strike></strike> Editing material about synagogue being destroyed during 1948 Arab-Israeli war, by definition an I/P topic. | |||
# Renaming a section entitled "Russia and the Arab-Israeli conflict" to "Israel-Russia relations". | |||
# Extensively editing a section about Sweden and the Israel-Palestinian conflict. | |||
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required): | |||
# Warning by {{userlinks|Sandstein}} that Gilabrand has been placed under 3 month topic ban from I/P topics under ] | |||
;Enforcement action requested (], ] or ]) : Block (user has for 48 hours so a longer block might be appropriate). | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : User seems unwilling to acknowledge any misconduct on their part or that they will abide by their topic ban or ]. | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
===Discussion concerning Gilabrand=== | |||
====Statement by Gilabrand==== | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning Gilabrand ==== | |||
*I'm not going to do any blocking myself here, but this seems like a blatant violation of the sanction. Again. Gilabrand seems intent on completely ignoring the sanction, so I think a longer block is in order -- a week, at least, and perhaps an extension of the original topic ban. I don't see how Gilabrand cannot see how these aren't violations of her sanction. -- ''']''' 06:25, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
**I will however say the first edit is rather trivial though. -- ''']''' 06:27, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*** My apologies, Tariq, I mistakenly used the wrong diff for the first revision. The actual diff is which shows quite extensive changes to that section, most of them directly related to the I/P topic area. ] (]) 06:48, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I was invited to help copyedit an article on the Hurva Synagogue that was up for FA review and the administrator who blocked me said he did not object to my working on that article. I did NOT change information. I edited the lead, and all the material I edited appears in the text of the article. In the article on Israel's foreign relations, again, I did NOT change any material. I shortened a certain section that was not in proportion to the rest of the sections in the article, and left ALL THE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST ISRAEL exactly as they were. I changed a subheading on relations with Russia to conform with ALL the dozens of other sections, which refer to a main article that is called "X country's relations with Israel." These did not change the political message that Factsonthground is so anxious to convey. Factsontheground is stalking and harassing me (and not only me, as you can see from the numerous administrators' pages that are taken up with his complaints and back and forth reparte, feigning innocence but ]. Tariqabjotu is also keen on wiping me out of existence, as he didn't like the fact that I added photos to the Israel page which he has effectively claimed as own. The vindictiveness and hostility is growing by the day and users like Factsontheground are playing a major role in turning Misplaced Pages into a battleground and a forum for their personal agenda. He and his friends, like Supreme Deliciousness, Ani Mejool, and a host of others, are doing all they can to scare away editors, get others blocked and insert information about Palestinian grievances in every article they possibly can, including those that have nothing to do with the subject. This is so transparent that it is almost laughable. When administrators let them off lightly without looking at the bulk of contributions, they are perpetuating this and helping to create a laughingstock of Misplaced Pages, furthering its image and as unreliable source of information. On my part, I will try to stick to copyediting, and improving articles with solid content and references, and illustrating them with attractive pictures. That is what I came to do on Misplaced Pages, and that is what I hope to continue doing. --] (]) 09:42, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:: Wow. I take it you don't like me very much. Well, nobody else forced you to spam hate material into ]. Nobody else forced you to keep blatantly violating your topic ban. If I didn't report you, someone else would have, no doubt about it. ] (]) 10:45, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
Some parts of are personal attacks.--] (]) | |||
::Without addressing the merit of Gilabrand's edits, I'm concerned about some of the actions being taken by other editors are not being done in good faith, or at least there is some Wiki-stalking taking place. I have watched similar actions taken against editors from the "other side", like ], where after he was sanctioned other editors went over his edits with a fine tooth comb trying to find anything they could use to effectively continue to "punish" or "silence" the editor in question. I would ask administrators to keep this in mind when making decisions regarding this and future enforcement actions. --]<sup>]</sup> 17:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Gilabrand=== | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
*'''Blocked''' 1 week for violating topic ban. ] (]) 11:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{hab}} | |||
== Meowy == | |||
{{hat|{{user|Meowy}} blocked for one year.}} | |||
===Request concerning Meowy=== | |||
; User requesting enforcement : ]] 08:20, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Meowy}} | |||
;Sanction or remedy that this user violated : ] | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : # 1st rv | |||
# 2nd rv | |||
# 3rd rv | |||
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required): # Meowy was placed on 1rv per week revert limitation and civility supervision by {{admin|Seraphimblade}} | |||
;Enforcement action requested (], ] or ]) : Block, topic ban | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : Meowy was placed on revert limitation for edit warring on the arbitration covered area, and was blocked for violation of this restriction many times. See his block log: Last time he was blocked for violation of the revert limitation for 1 month: , which soon followed by a block for sockpuppetry. Also, civility is another problem with Meowy. He was recently banned from commenting on any boards, if the discussed issue has no relation to him. Despite all this, he continues the same problematic behavior. He removed large content from ] 3 times within one week without any consensus at talk with other involved editors. Please see diffs above. This is a clear violation of his revert limitation, which allows him to make only 1 rv per week. In addition, he removed postings by other users with incivil comments: He also removes warnings with the same type of comments: I think the above violations require that Meowy is banned indefinitely from Armenia-Azerbaijan related topics. ]] 08:20, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
===Discussion concerning Meowy=== | |||
====Statement by Meowy==== | |||
I am sorry about that - I did not realise I had previously removed that section within the last 7 days. I cannot now reverse the edit, since the section has been already restored. However, that section does cover a BLP issue that involved material being added to the article that had ''previously been removed'' from the ] article because it contained unverified extreme allegations about war crimes. So my edit was not some needless, flippant reverting. If administrators were as concientious about patrolling the BLP message boards and enforcing Misplaced Pages's general BLP policies as they were about enforcing decisions against individuals, that section would not have been there for me to want to remove. ] 18:03, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I have just noticed Grandmmaster's "he removed postings by other users with incivil comments" claim. This refers to my removal of a flippant and pointless post made by Jarhed on the BLP noticeboard that had said ''"Frankly, I don't even know where Azerbaijani is, and I can't summon up any reason to care about it".'' Jarhed has prior history of making bizarre edits during the previous BLP issue about Ohanyan, such as altering the context of editors' posts by moving them around and labeling them "partisan ranting", as well as receiving a warning about making a personal attack against me , and then saying he doesn't ''"give a fig about[REDACTED] proceedings or formal complaints"''. I don't think anyone could disagree that the jarhed post I removed was malicious, made with the intent of disrupting a legitimate BLP posting, and that (given its content and its position, right under the initial posting about the issue being raised) it was appropriate to remove it. I don't know why Jarhed decided to make such a post in a thread about a serious issue like war crimes - acting the idiot is as fair an explanation as any. ] 22:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning Meowy ==== | |||
Meowy's edits are quite justified in the instances highlighted by Grandmaster above. There has been almost a concerted effort to label the current defense minister of Armenia, ], as a war criminal on his article on Misplaced Pages, on the flimsy basis of an pseudo-investigation by an Azerbaijani parliamentary group. Thankfully, in early January, third party editors dissuaded editors from adding such information on a living person's page on Misplaced Pages (), without any reliable sources. | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
It might be helpful to draw the administrators' attention to an astonishing event that occurred in early 2007 to the Turkish historian, ], who was detained by border police at Montreal Airport on the basis that someone had vandalised and added on his Misplaced Pages article that he was a terrorist! (). | |||
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. --> | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
The insinuation here is obvious yet subtle - mentioning Ohanyan and elements of the the 366th regiment as participants in an attack that killed several civilians, without any reliable source to point to, is clearly meant to besmirch his own reputation. Constantly adding such information is disingenuous and, who knows, it might even lead to a repeat of the Akcam fiasco. Meowy is correct here in removing information which can potentially be viewed as libel and, in this case, he is removing incendiary information that can lead to confusion in the real world. It's unfortunate to see to what extremes certain editors will go to block an editor who has otherwise contributed and greatly enriched the articles found here. --] (]) 17:45, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning Callmehelper=== | |||
::It's rather more serious than the killing of "several civilians" - which makes the issue of the content that I removed, content that weasily implied (without actually saying it, since no supporting source exists) a named individual's involvement in a serious war crime, one that needs the attention of a competant administrator. ] 18:15, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
I don't think that the content disputes can be a justification for repeated and deliberate removal of a large section from the article, considering that there was no consensus for its removal and that even uninvolved third party editors watching the article told the editors to reach consensus before making significant changes. Yet Meowy chose to edit war, despite his numerous prior blocks for the same violation. As for the content removed by Meowy, the information provided by MarshallBagramyan is not accurate. There are sources that mention the role of the 366th regiment in the massacre, and participation of this unit in the attack on the town is not disputed by anyone. And no, nowhere does the article say that Ohanyan took part in the massacre, it only mentions a well known and undisputed fact that after the regiment was withdrawn from the region some of its personel, including Ohanyan, stayed. That is nowhere near a BLP issue. And I cannot see any possible justification for removal of comments by other users, and extremely incivil edit summaries that accompanied that removal. ]] 20:19, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::The article is about the massacre, it is not about the attack on the town. Apart from the two incidents being separate in time and location, the massacre is a possible war crime under international laws, the attack on the town is not - it was completely acceptable given that town was legitimate military target. <br />The content I removed was weasily worded to imply that a named individual was involved in committing a serious war crime. Resolving BLP issues do not require consensus. That I removed that content 4 days after my previous removal of it is factually correct, as I have admitted. I thought the time span was longer than 4 days - my mistake. That violation was not intentional on my part, and I would have reverted my edit if it had not already been reverted. I have concern that this BLP violation continues unchecked by administrators, while the editor who has just been doing what an administrator should have been doing - trying to remove the violation - will be punished. ] 22:46, 13 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::The content was removed 3 times, not twice. And removed content included not just info about Ohanyan, which btw does not violate BLP rules, as it only mentions that this person stayed behind after the regiment was withdrawn, but also a large section about the role of the Soviet 366th regiment, which cannot be a BLP issue, as the 366th regiment was not a living person. How can you explain such a removal without any consensus? You said in your edit summary that you were "Erasing off-topic and slanderous "role of 366th regiment of CIS army" section" , so clearly this was not about the line that you claim was a BLP issue, as you removed a much larger content, supported by multiple sources. ]] 07:16, 14 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Callmehelper==== | |||
===Result concerning Meowy=== | |||
This is my side ; | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
# '''1 Allegation''' : Yes, it was indeed a copyright violation. This was my first encounter to something like copyright violation. Which i just copy-paste of a paragraph from govt website. Then one senior editor tell me in my talk page about what copyright violation is and how that works, and it was my very healthy and learning session for me tbh. Please see the whole discussion, then it will exhibit a full picture. First conversion happened in my talk page then little more conversations happened in his talk page And ultimately matter solved and i learnt by this conversations and after that i never did anything like copyright violation. I don't know why this issue is used here against me. | |||
<br> | |||
# '''2nd Allegation''' : This is little complex and long problem. Although i explain it very deeply during AN/I. But i will cut it short. It was started very much before. '''Firstly someone tag me about this vandalism by saying that one editor try to manipulate some paragraph in that page then i got involved in this. I restored that paragraph but it was reverted by again that guy and it keep going for sometime, then i told them in his talk page but he just delete that talk without replying, then i go for article talk page and write all that issue but no one replied, then i go to two administrator personal talk page, one was busy and one told me that i should go for AN/I but here also i got no reply for 2 days. after all that someone replied that i should go for main article talk page, which i was already did. this was disappointing for me as i feel in a loop as in talk page no one replied. so i replied very rudely but it was more of a frustration for 4 days. But nevertheless, I apologise to that editor and that senior editor named Lez who told me about my rudeness, in next reply. Moreover i also apologise to that editor in his talk page on | |||
<br> | |||
# 3 Allegations : It was related to 2nd allegation. It was indeed a Vandalism, because after discussion done in that talk page that editor was again removing all this , so i had to go to his talk page and said about this is Vandalism pls stop doing it but again that guy deleted my vandalism warning without replying to me , But ultimately that editor stopped doing vandalism in that page and it then remains restored after so my efforts for continuous 5 days.<br> But i don't know how that respected complainer think that this is not vandalism? IT WAS VANDALISM. <br> | |||
# '''4th & 5th Allegations''' : I am not aware about WP:Stick. Simply I make a draft and leave a (template submit) in my draft and then it goes for discussion. After so much long long conversations, it was finalized that the draft is still not acceptable as it lack Notability and i ultimately accept that and this conversation end in very light way. <br> | |||
This is a content dispute. There are evidently sources that look like they might be reliable. This needs to be discussed and decided using normal dispute resolution. Revert warring is not allowed, especially by an editor previously placed on 1RR. The same editor, Meowy, was last time blocked for a month, and caught socking during the block. Meowy has a very long block log. It seems like it is now time for lengthy block. ] <sup>]</sup> 12:59, 14 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
'''My Conclusion''': I whenever make any statement in uncivil manner i never ever leave as it is without my apology. i apologise to those whenever i feel that i replied them in uncivil way. <br> As i am not so english fluent, so i don't have much dictionaries of words, so ultimately some my words reflect a little rudeness, but it was never be my intention. so apologise to him immediately. <br> Although i am new , but i am sure i will be adapt myself very soon about all the policies. I also work on myself perticularly about my choice of words. <br> Those seniors who seen my choice of bad words should advice/warm me in my talk page instead of going direct complaining, as i seen such policy as , as i never ignored any type of warning/advice or suggestions. <br>This was my side. <br>I will accept any kind of warning or ban after all.<br> Thanks.<br> Much Regards. | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
: I have blocked for one year, the maximum allowed. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:06, 14 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning Callmehelper=== | |||
{{hab}} | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
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שלומית ליר
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning שלומית ליר
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Smallangryplanet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- שלומית ליר (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBPIA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation of how these edits violate it
ShlomitLir (שלומית ליר) created their account back in 2014. The breakdown of their edits is as follows:
- 2014 to 2016: no edits.
- 2017 to 2019: 1 edit per year. None related to PIA.
- 2022: 7 edits. Mostly in their userspace.
- 2023: 21 edits. Again, mostly in their userspace. Made two edits in the talk page of Palestinian genocide accusation complaining about its content and calling it “blatant pro-Hamas propaganda”.
- 2024: Started editing after a 10 month break at the end of October.
- Made 51 edits in October and 81 edits in November (copyedits, adding links, minor edits).
- In December, that number rose up to almost 400, including 116 in December 6 alone and 98 in December 7. Became ECR that day.
- Immediately switched to editing in PIA, namely in the Battle of Sderot article where they changed the infobox picture with an unclear image with a dubious caption, and removed a template without providing a reason why.
- They also edited the Use of human shields by Hamas article, adding another image with a caption not supported by the source (replaced by yet another image with a contextless caption when the previous image was removed) and WP:UNDUE content in the lead.
- they also voted in the second AfD for Calls for the destruction of Israel despite never having interacted with that article or its previous AfD. They have barely surpassed 500 edits, but the gaming is obvious, highlighted by the sudden switch to editing in PIA.
More importantly, there's the issue of POV pushing. I came across this article authored by them on Ynet, once again complaining about what they perceive as an anti Israeli bias on Misplaced Pages. They have also authored a report for the World Jewish Congress covering the same topic. The report can be seen in full here. I think that someone with this clear POV agenda shouldn't be near the topic.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 2023-04-05 and re-iterated on 2024-11-25 (see the system log linked to above).
- Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on 2024-12-18 by Femke (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Adding some additional comments on 2025-01-16: On top of POV issues, the user has a number of tweets that appear to be a clear admission of gaming, implicit canvassing, creating and sharing lists of potential "most biased articles", and clearly calling for specific edits. They've also been cited as coordinating an off-wiki coordination hub for editing Misplaced Pages. If this - combined with the tweets, the forms, the op-ed and the report to the WJC, all under this user's name (that they also use to edit Misplaced Pages - this is not outing) isn't a clear cut case of canvassing, I don't know what is. Smallangryplanet (talk) 20:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Adding some more comments on 2025-01-22: The user in question says that they have been on[REDACTED] for years – and so surely aware of what does and does not count as canvassing. As recently as last month they were advising users on Hebrew Misplaced Pages as to how best to get their edit counts up, as well as promoting the "most biased articles" survey I've already mentioned. I understand that we are always meant to WP:AGF, but we are looking at a situation in which a user (1) has extensive experience with Misplaced Pages and (2) is encouraging people, subtly and not so subtly to do things that are against our policies. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Notification diff
Discussion concerning שלומית ליר
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by שלומית ליר
I believe contents of this filing to be in clear policy violation and have reached out to the arbitration committee for further clarification before commenting further.שלומית ליר (talk) 14:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was given clarification from an admin regarding my concerns and will now be drafting a response. Thank you for your patience. שלומית ליר (talk) 21:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
First and foremost, I value accuracy and transparency and am fully prepared to address any verified errors or missteps. My contributions are made in good faith, with only the intention of supporting Misplaced Pages’s mission. I am a veteran editor on Hebrew wiki, yet am learning to appreciate the sometimes stark differences in rules in this section, so am doing my very best to keep up to speed and abide fully as I edit further here.
As a longtime editor on another wiki who finally decided this year to match pace on English wiki, I strenuously reject any accusations of EC gaming when a passing glance on my global log will confirm I have not radically altered my editing pace nor article focus. In regards to NPOV concerns, I will defer to the numerous comments below affirming that there is no policy violation by having an opinion, onsite or off, and must register mild complaint that NPOV accusations are being leveled here without any policy violation having been affirmed on any of these individual contributions.
While contributions observed superficially (and without clear context of edit conversation and interaction with other editors) may appear to be agenda oriented, if I were granted more word counts, I would happily highlight the context of most edits made to make clear I was pushing back against previous bias efforts (past and present) by editors (including a number on the precipice of sanction in PIA5). Perhaps it would have been wiser to report what I felt was POV editing behavior instead of pushing back, but I only believed my efforts were to restore and preserve article balance, not disrupt it.
I am grateful for the admin guidance received so far and appreciate being better informed about certain grey areas. I meant no intention to remotely approach anything resembling canvassing and believed the commentary was allowable (most especially since it was on a proceeding I was neither participating in, nor linking out to). I understand now that this may be perceived as “call to action” which was not remotely the intent, most especially to an audience that is mostly academic and, to the best of my knowledge, does not edit Misplaced Pages. (I also humbly must point out that no report was made indicating any increase in activity to suggest editors had been canvassed). I have now been well appraised and will take great care and caution to ensure no further off-site commentary remotely approaches such this territory of concern. If there are any questions or doubts in the future, I will seek future guidance from admins before venturing into potentially questionable territory. שלומית ליר (talk) 01:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Thebiguglyalien
This is the first ARBPIA report since the proposed decision was posted at ARBPIA5 and it's specifically a matter of POV pushing, responding admins should be aware of the "AE topic bans" remedy. The committee is discussing whether to implement a remedy stating that admins at AE are "empowered and encouraged to consider a topic ban" purely for biased editing. So far, the argument against is that it's redundant because AE admins are already supposed to do this. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-03-29/Special_report
Statement by Selfstudier
To the extent that it is relevant, the WJC report was discussed at Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-03-29/Special report. Selfstudier (talk) 11:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by starship.paint (2)
I would to like to raise this 9 December 2024 edit at Battle of Sderot, where there had been an existing unsourced paragraph (On the morning of October 7, a tour minibus...
) that שלומית ליר added a reference to (archive 1 / archive 2) from the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation. The reference is relevant, but I believe it may not verify every detail in the Battle of Sderot paragraph (e.g. "Netivot", "Holocaust survivors"). The reference contains a short paragraph of text and a video that is 4:21 long. I can't watch the video in the reference, but I believe it is this same YouTube video that is 4:20 long which contains the same screenshot as the reference, on the same topic. Most of the video is an interview of the daughter of a dead victim who was on the bus (the daughter had been on the phone with the victim), except for 1:58 to 2:13 which appears to be a quote from the bus driver. The publisher themselves do not have too much reporting in their own voice (on the video), yet this reference was used to cite a paragraph entirely stated in Wikivoice. No attribution was made to the relative or the bus driver, or to the publisher. I can't be totally sure though, due to unfamiliarity with Hebrew. starship.paint (talk / cont) 13:53, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by xDanielx
@Arcticocean: I don't really see how NPOV can be read as requiring edits which support both sides of a controversy. Our content policies don't impose any positive duties; they only tell us what not to do. The text of the policy doesn't support the notion that a pattern of edits could be in violation, even if no particular edit is in violation.
In principle, such a pattern of edits could violate the UCoC policy, but I don't believe this board has ever enforced it. If it were to be enforced, I think it should be for more serious violations like the double standards that e.g. this attempted to demonstrate, rather than mere opinion-driven editing which applies to the vast majority of CTOP editors. — xDanielx /C\ 03:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Hemiauchenia
This user has engaged in off-wiki canvassing regarding the IP conflict. Take the following recent tweet from the 12 January permanent archive
For posterity in case it is deleted it contains the following remarks:
If you can't handle the facts, just delete them Propaganda on @Misplaced Pages includes targeting Israel, demonizing it, and erasing inconvenient truths, from falsifying war outcomes to deleting Israeli inventions and attempting to erase the reality of Palestinian suicide bombers.
Along with this is a screenshot of the current AfD Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Palestinian suicide attacks. People are of course allowed to be caustic about Misplaced Pages off-wiki, but calling out a specific AfD with highly charged rhetoric, essentially inciting canvassing seems out of line. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- For those concerned that this might be outing, שלומית ליר is very open about their real life identity on their userpage. See (archived). If you reveal your real identity on Misplaced Pages, your tweets about Misplaced Pages on your Twitter account connected to your real-life identity are fair game to mention. There's also reverse confirmation in this tweet . Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Cdjp1
As we seem to be ok to pull evidence from the statements of the editor in question, they have also commented more recently about running interference on Misplaced Pages (archive) in response to a question of if Misplaced Pages can be "saved". -- Cdjp1 (talk) 23:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoyland
It has been several days. Perhaps שלומית ליר could clarify whether their belief about the way Misplaced Pages works turned out to be a true belief or a false belief so that this report can progress. Sean.hoyland (talk) 09:07, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
I am interested in the Google form cited above, specifically how this differs from the widely reported situation that resulted in the 'Off-wiki misconduct in Palestine–Israel topic area' case that employed Discord (and/or X, I forget) rather than a Google form. Is a consistent decision procedure being used to distinguish between encouraging participation and canvassing/meatpuppetry? I think a lot of people don't know where the line is, assuming there is a line, or at least some kind of fuzzy decision boundary. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:46, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Vice regent
I'm satisfied by שלומית ליר's above explanation regarding canvassing. People with bad canvassing intentions don't reveal their identity. VR (Please ping on reply) 04:19, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning שלומית ליר
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Users are allowed to have a POV - it's a rare user indeed who edits a contentious topic without having some strong opinions about it. For conduct to be actionable at AE it needs to be an actual policy violation. The misleading use of images doesn't rise to the level of AE action in my view, and judging whether an addition like this is UNDUE is not within AE's purview, as long as it is supported by the source. Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The off-wiki canvassing is a problem. It merits a warning at least, I don't know if the formality thereof matters. If there was evidence that שלומית ליר was aware of WP:CANVAS I would consider something more stringent. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I understand Vanamonde93's concerns, I think that we are required to assess the totality of the user's contributions. Contentious topic editors are required to uphold NPOV. Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics#Guidance for editors places an obligation to Within contentious topics,… edit carefully and constructively… and… adhere to the purposes of Misplaced Pages. The linked page provides that Misplaced Pages is written from a neutral point of view… We strive for articles with an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight for their prominence. If an editor is only adding content that significantly favours one or the other side to the conflict, this is incompatible with their contentious topic obligation. That is because an editor making only one-sided edits will simply not be taking the necessary steps to ensure that the whole article is written from a neutral point of view. As their number of one-sided edits increases, the likelihood decreases that the editor is ensuring our content is neutral and impartial. Once we reach the point of being sure that they are not attempting to ensure neutrality of content, we can conclude the editor is not meeting their contentious topics obligations and we can issue a sanction. This can only be assessed with hindsight and by looking at the editor's contributions as a whole. arcticocean ■ 20:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed at 17:33, 8 December 2024, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict:
- Adding a citation for a claim that Hamas terrorists shot dead a group of Israeli tourists.
- Replacing map with a photograph of victims of violence.
- Removing an outdated maintenance tag which was perhaps casting doubt on the relevant section, Massacre of pensioners, and again.
- Adding specification to claims of the use of human shield (specifying who has made the claims), therefore giving greater weight to the claims, in a context where the claims were already described at considerable length; adding another reference to that claim; and adding another.
- Adding an image contentiously captioned 'Weapons Found in a Mosque', then again Rockets hidden at a house, both to the first line of the article.
- Adding, without sufficient context, an assertion that a philosopher has determined that one side of the conflict is culpable and expanding other coverage of culpability of that side.
- On the talk pages, there has been a tinge of failure to AGF although I would be prepared to look past that (it was like meeting like). I am skipping a few further and insignificant talk page comments.
- There are then edits to LGBTQ rights in the State of Palestine: inserting a reference to execution into the first sentence of the lead; adding more references to news coverage of executions of LGBT+ people by the other side of the conflict. At Houthi movement, there is then an expansion, again of the article lead, to add references to terrorist attacks (with follow-up).
- Assessing the edits as a whole, it is difficult not to conclude that the respondent user is failing to meet their contentious topics obligation to edit neutrally in this topic area. As the number of edits is so far limited, if a sanction is imposed, it could justifiably be light-touch. arcticocean ■ 20:34, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- @XDanielx: Thanks for commenting. Most of the edits do not have a neutral, encyclopedic POV. There is an effort to influence our articles away from neutrally describing the subject without taking sides, contrary to WP:NPOV. Even if each edit in isolation is insufficient for sanctioning, taken as a whole the edits show an inability or unwillingness to edit neutrally. One non-neutral edit shouldn't be sanctioned; twenty is a different story. This is not about the percentage of biased edits but about the weight or amount of them. Therefore, the assessment wouldn't really change even had the editor made some 'neutral' edits along the way. I'm happy to concede that editors cannot be compelled to balance edits of one bias with edits of another, but I don't think that comes into it. In a nutshell, this is about Misplaced Pages:Advocacy. arcticocean ■ 08:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed at 17:33, 8 December 2024, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict:
- The offwiki canvassing is a problem...שלומית ליר, you're fairly inexperienced here. Were you aware WP:canvassing is not allowed? Valereee (talk) 12:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- For transparency, שלומית ליר reached out to me, and I explained multiple policy and advised her to go ahead and respond here without waiting for individual feedback from her email to arbcom, which may or may not happen. Valereee (talk) 22:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I take it that per Barkeep49's brief oversighting of potentially-sensitive content in this report (Special:Diff/1269845558), and then restoration of the same (Special:Diff/1269848988), concerns of outing have been investigated and the report can proceed on its merits? signed, Rosguill 19:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's correct. I got a request, I didn't really feel it was OUTING, but as I indicated in my edit summary OS is a tool of first resort. I consulted with the OS listserv and received some responses quickly agreeing with me and so I unsuppressed and restored the material. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's not for AE to decide content disputes, and that's mostly what this looks like. We can handle things like flagrant misrepresentation of sources, but how best to represent them is a matter for consensus discussion, not us to decide here. The canvassing was a cause for concern, but it looks like it was rather unintended and had little if any actual effect, and they've agreed to stop that going forward. (Note that doesn't mean anyone must stop criticizing Misplaced Pages or what happens on it; do all of that you like. Just don't encourage people to take particular actions based on that.) I don't see any further action as necessary at this point. Seraphimblade 16:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not satisfied with שלומית ליר's please of good faith. I think that the call for "interference" on Twitter (not even a week ago!) is a real concern in light of the standards being established by PIA5. I'm also concerned about the timeline of their knowledge of relevant CTOP sanctions. They were warned about PIA in April 2023 (by me, apparently). They should have been familiar with canvassing rules from the moment they got that warning to be on their best behavior. Not only that, but perusing their edit history, I see that there are several edits that are PIA violations prior to reaching XC on December 8 (e.g. Special:Diff/1256599528, although there's clearly many others in their edit history). In sum, I see no reason to believe the narrative of good faith presented here by them in light of the available evidence and do believe that we should consider at the minimum a logged warning. signed, Rosguill 20:15, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would be okay with a logged warning for canvassing, which remains the most concerning behavior to me. I find it difficult to see my way to penalizing violations of the XC restriction after the editor has already reached XC status without a clear finding of gaming XC status, and I don't see that here. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:41, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call it gaming, I think it's a pattern of intentional defiance of community rules, which in turn makes the otherwise rather exemplary defense written here by them less than convincing. signed, Rosguill 21:15, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would be okay with a logged warning for canvassing, which remains the most concerning behavior to me. I find it difficult to see my way to penalizing violations of the XC restriction after the editor has already reached XC status without a clear finding of gaming XC status, and I don't see that here. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:41, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Luganchanka
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Luganchanka
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Hemiauchenia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Luganchanka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 19:55, 12 January 2025 Reversion to version of article where the article says "He is a child sex offender" in the second sentence despite consensus at BLPN discussion that this is problematic because Ritter never actually interacted with a real child.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
18:28, 12 January 2025 BLP CTOP warning given
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
At BLPN, there has been consensus that the version of the article describing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the second sentence of the article is problematic, as he did not actually have sexual contact with a child, only a police officer impersonating one. Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Scott_Ritter_Biography_-_Noncompliance_with_MOS_and_BLP_Guidelines. Luganchanka has been persistently edit warring against this apparent consensus. For which he has been warned by @NatGertler: , which he subequently blanked There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article going back to at least August Talk:Scott_Ritter#First_sentence, but Luganchanka persistently cites a "consensus" for its inclusion that as far as I can tell does not seem to exist, with Luganchanka aggressively editing to enforce its inclusion. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka's response is disingenuous and misleading. Look at the Talk:Scott_Ritter#First_sentence discussion I linked above. Nobody other than Luganchanka thinks that Ritter should be described as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article. The dispute isn't about whether or not the convictions should be mentioned in the lead at all or not, it's specifically about the use of the phrase "child sex offender", and there is no consensus to include that as far as I can tell, despite Luganchanka's vociferous claims to the contrary. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Luganchanka
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Luganchanka
The intro on the Scott Ritter page had remained largely the same for several months, as you will see on the talkpage it is an intro approved, and reverted to, by multiple senior editors. There has been a recent flurry of activity / edits. While I WP: assume good faith, it does look like those edits are attempting to downplay / whitewash Ritter's sexual offence conviction(s). I have not been 'aggressive' at all, rather I have simply referred contentious edits to the talkpage to build consensus, attempting to do my duty as a good Misplaced Pages editor.Luganchanka (talk) 20:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Please see the Talk:Scott_Ritter, where there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior[REDACTED] editors, that Ritter's sexual offence conviction should be included in the lead to the article. My edits have simply been aimed at ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article.Luganchanka (talk) 20:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you to @Valereee and @Red-tailed hawk for your feedback. If you see the Talk:Scott_Ritter, discussions -
14 August - Vandalism by removing all reference entirely to Ritter being a "Convicted Sex Offender"
andFirst sentence
. The latter discussion ended on 26th September, and resulted in the intro we had until a flurry of edits the other day, trying to move information on Ritter's sexual offence conviction, downplay it, whitewash it etc. My edits were aimed at restoring the edit reached by consensus, which had been in place for several months until the recent raft of edits with the clear aim of moving / downplaying Ritter's sexual offence conviction.Luganchanka (talk) 06:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for this (nest), I really do appreciate your feedback and advice here!!Luganchanka (talk) 16:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC) (moved from admin-only section — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC))
- As per Rosguill's comments:
"Unfazed by "Emily's" age, Ritter asked "Emily," "you want to see it finish?" Ritter then turned on the webcam and ejaculated in front of the camera for "Emily." Detective Venneman then notified Ritter of his undercover status and the undercover operation and directed Ritter to call the police station."
https://casetext.com/case/ritter-v-tuttle
Luganchanka (talk) 18:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by NatGertler
Editor's edits today focused on trying to main a negative descriptor of what subject believed, despite it not being in the three sources that were listed (nor in the old version they ultimately reverted to.) Efforts were first trying to simply restate the claim, then trying to source it to an opinion piece (problem) from the Washington Examiner (also a bit of a problem, per WP:RSP), then trying to state as a fact what had merely been stated in a non-prime article as an accusation. BLP concern was pointed out repeatedly via edit summary and on Talk page. Removal of unsourced contentious BLP claims and even false claims is not "whitewashing" despite how editor wishes to depict it, it is in accord with our practices. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Luganchanka
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @Luganchanka: whether you're correct or not, you were edit warring. I believe an indef block from the article and/or a temporary site block would be an appropriate sanction here. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've blocked the user for 48h for violating 3RR based on the report at WP:AN3.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:56, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka, edit-warring to remove negative content at a BLP is an exemption to 3RR. I see that NatGertler mentioned this in their edit summaries and at talk. As voorts points out, it doesn't matter whether you're right when you're reverting an edit that is being claimed as an exemption, even if you believe Rosguillwhiyou are "ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article". The solution is to go to talk, discuss, and get consensus. If you'd like to respond, ping me to your response at your talk and I'll post it here. Valereee (talk) 16:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka, if you really believe those two sections -- senior editors, indeed, this one was between someone with 13 edits and somcoen who wasn't ECR, for heaven's sake -- somehow prove consensus was strong, and you think that means you can ignore all the later ones -- at one of which you didn't even respond to a ping, where people were objecting -- then this is maybe looking like a WP:CIR issue.
- But even if you had been somehow editing to support a consensus you believed was settled, you cannot edit-war contentious material into a BLP when others are objecting to it. The solution, always, is to go to talk, discuss, and reconfirm consensus. There is zero urgency to have this information in the article. Including something negative in a BLP is not something you should ever edit war over. Valereee (talk) 18:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka's reading of the state of consensus on the talk page as supporting their edits is so far off base that it borders on being a CIR issue if it's sincere. Indef block from Scott Ritter seems appropriate. signed, Rosguill 22:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to WP:FORUMSHOP isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., that would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of
whitewash
before writing this off as time-served. signed, Rosguill 15:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. signed, Rosguill 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make Special:Diff/1269831044. The cited BBC source does not state
masturbated and ejaculated on camera
, saying onlygraphic sex act
. As written, this is essentially another BLP violation, building a case that a ban from this topic is needed. signed, Rosguill 16:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by New York Post, a generally unreliable source. Luganchanka, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? signed, Rosguill 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The detail is in the record of Ritter v. Tuttle (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seeing Special:Diff/1269853673 here and Special:Diff/1269853955, Special:Diff/1269845272 at Talk:Scott Ritter, I see no comprehension of the use of primary vs. secondary sources, nor any reflection of their past errors in engaging with this topic. I believe that a block from the page is needed to prevent further BLP violations as they have shown no understanding of the relevant policies even after being given several warnings, reminders and opportunities to revise their position. signed, Rosguill 18:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka:
- WP:BLPPRIMARY calls upon users to
not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person
. There are some narrow exceptions (whenprimary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source
), but adding material to the article not found in reliable secondary sources is... suboptimal at best under our biographies of living persons policy. - — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- The detail is in the record of Ritter v. Tuttle (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by New York Post, a generally unreliable source. Luganchanka, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? signed, Rosguill 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make Special:Diff/1269831044. The cited BBC source does not state
- Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. signed, Rosguill 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to WP:FORUMSHOP isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., that would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of
- @Luganchanka: Would you please provide a direct link to the talk page section you are referring to when you say
there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior[REDACTED] editors
regarding the lead? — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 01:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- @Luganchanka and Hemiauchenia:
- It does seem that the discussion at Talk:Scott Ritter#First sentence does indicate some support for that language i.e. (
convicted child sex offender
) in the lead, with some general lean against putting it in the first sentence. So, whileThere has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences
is true if it means the literal first sentence, I do see a rough consensus to include the material in the lead section in some way in that discussion. - That being said, the BLPN discussion had a bit of different tone and tenor from the discussion on the talk page. There was notification about a BLPN discussion on the article's talk page, but Luganchanka, despite having been pretty vocal about this subject in the past, hadn't participated in that BLPN discussion. They instead grounded their edits in the argument that the article's talk page had consensus for the current content, and nothing on the article's talk page had changed that consensus. And that much was true. In any case, we've got
two different forums with two different answerstwo different forums with two different answers here, which appears to be what's leading to the whole kerfluffle. - Then the analysis comes to whether or not the label is a straightforward BLP violation, requiring us to read the sourcing in the article. This NY Times piece, which is cited in the body of the article (but not the lead), does state that Ritter
was convicted unlawful contact with minors and other charges
in the state of PA (the PA statute is here; "unlawful contact with minors" is the verbatim name of the crime). When dealing with a sting operation, PA treats it asan offense of the same grade and degree
as if the criminal had actually contacted a child (unless it's a lesser crime than a third-degree felony, in which case it becomes a third-degree felony). This is an extremely common practice in the United States (there are lots of philosophical questions regarding mens rea and actus reus here, but that's not really relevant here). In any case, labeling this to be a child sex offense (or, alternatively, to simply use the name of the crime in the article) does not appear to be straightforward malice/POV-pushing/libel, and a reasonably informed individual might shorten it in this way. Whether or not that is wise or optimal to shorten it is the proper subject for content discussion. - Aside from the edit warring (which was not acceptable, and was aptly handled by a block), this looks like a content dispute. A heated one involving a living person, sure, but a content dispute nonetheless. I see good-faith—albeit passionate—disagreement. If the editors were to come together and engage in one forum (such as the article's talk page, where this has been discussed a bunch), rather than splitting the discussion over multiple pages, I feel like we might have our best shot at attaining a consensus going forward.
- In short, it looks like the conversation fragmented, and consensus-building broke down. Edit warring ensued, which was bad, but we've already blocked for that in order to dissuade it going forward. A Request for Comment on the article's talk page for what the lead should look like is probably the best way to go forward here.
- — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- RTH, are you objecting to a p-block from the article? Valereee (talk) 13:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ping to @Red-tailed hawk Valereee (talk) 18:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- RTH, are you objecting to a p-block from the article? Valereee (talk) 13:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka has been blocked for a week by User:ScottishFinnishRadish for BLP violations and personal attacks. Liz 18:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting that this was a regular admin action and I wasn't aware this was before AE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:42, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- With this in mind, I think we should wait to hear from RTH but otherwise expect to move forward to an indef p-block on top of SFR's stopgap action, as we haven't seen anything coming close to an adequate recognition of the relevant policies and practices from Luganchanka and after several second chances and nudges, I don't see reason to expect them to change course. signed, Rosguill 18:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting that this was a regular admin action and I wasn't aware this was before AE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:42, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
BabbleOnto
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning BabbleOnto
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- ජපස (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- BabbleOnto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/COVID-19#Contentious_topic_designation
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 11 January 2025 Sealioning
- 11 January 2025 Refusal to get the message
- 11 January 2025 Personalizing an argument.
- 11 January 2025 Railroading the discussion.
This is all after I warned them about WP:AE sanctions, and they dismissed my warning out of hand. Very nearly a WP:SPA on the subject. I see no reason to continue tolerating this kind of obstinate tendetiousness. Additional diffs available on request from admins, but looking at the user history should suffice to indicate the problem is obvious, I hope.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 9 Dec 2024 (see the system log linked to above).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This is a WP:SPA with respect to the topic and their disruption surrounding it has been subject to at least one WP:FTN thread that remains active: Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Gain_of_function_research. The hope was that they would WP:DROPTHESTICK and move on from this, but it seems they either will not or cannot. jps (talk) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning BabbleOnto
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by BabbleOnto
I would first like to begin by point out the person filing this complaint is involved in the content disputes at issue. They have frequently left "warnings" which read more like threats on my talk page and others' talk pages for people who disagree with them. Nor would I be the first person who would they would get banned from this topic for disagreeing with them.
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm being charged with doing.
I think in general the user is alleging I've been uncivil, unhelpful, and, in their words, obstinate and tendentious. I know when someone disagrees with you it may feel like they're getting in your way and acting in bad-faith, but that's not always true. I've never tried to be disruptive or uncivil. I've admitted when I was wrong, I've dropped arguments that were clarified to be wrong, I've tried to find compromise, at times begging people to provide their sources and work together. And when those editors refused to, I didn't provoke any further.
I now address the specific edits in the complaint:
1. I don't see how this is sea-lioning. The user misquoted the article. I pointed out the misquotation, then addressed a accusation against me that I was second-guessing the sources (A claim which was never substantiated). I then said any source would have to support that actual claim which was in the article. I don't know what this violates.
2. I don't see how this is refusing to get the message (IDHT). The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it. I replied with what I actually said. What part of that interaction is saying "I didn't hear that?"
3. Admittedly probably the strongest of the four allegations. I'm not pretending I was perfect in all of my comments. I should have kept my criticism strictly to their argument. I ask you to read it in context and keep in mind you're viewing a hand-picked assortment of my worst edits, and this is the worst they could find. Also consider that conversation accused me of having a basic reading comprehension problem, perhaps you can see I lose my cool sometimes too.
4. I'm not even really sure what "railroading the discussion" means. Thus, to keep this section short and to save words, I don't know what I'm being accused of doing wrong here.
All of this has stemmed out of arguments over two sources. I have tried to find compromise, I have tried to negotiate, I have tried to build consensus. I've been going through the proper channels, I've been participating in the RfC, I've been discussing it on the ANI, I source every claim I make, for a month now I've been trying to constructively explain my side and defend my argument against challenges. It's incredibly frustrating to now be facing an Arbitration Enforcement on grounds that I'm not working with others. BabbleOnto (talk) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Edited. BabbleOnto (talk) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, the sub-header for this section says that only admins can edit this section, I didn't realize I was allowed to reply here.
- Yes, I will. I intend on taking an extended break from wikipedia, as well. BabbleOnto (talk) 17:06, 19 January 2025 (UTC) Moved from uninvolved admin section; you can answer questions, make comments, discuss, but all your input needs to be in your own section. Valereee (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around.
- What I meant was that I'm willing to respect the consensus and not make any further edits or argue any more contrary to what the consensus decided. It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to personally agree with the consensus, beyond just respecting it, then there's nothing I can do. I still do disagree with the consensus's result. Nonetheless, I'm not going to edit or argue further, I'll respect it as a legitimate.
- Re:
no, you don't have to agree. You just have to accept and move on.
- Then I accept the consensus. I'm not going to argue in those discussions any further, though I still personally disagree, I understand a consensus has been reached which is other than my opinion. Nor will I edit disruptively or against the consensus. I appreciate the admin who noted I largely kept my disagreement in the talk pages, not editing the articles themselves. I plan on staying away from the topic in general for quite a while.
- Re:
- Re:
BabbleOnto, do you understand what we're talking about when we describe your participation at talk pages as WP:sealioning, and why we think it's such a problem, particularly in contentious topics? Do you think you can avoid participating in that way at article talk pages?
- Yes, and yes.
- Re:
Statement by ProcrastinatingReader
I've interacted with BabbleOnto in several threads. There's a few problems, but ultimately, I think they have a certain opinion on what the article should say, and will debate endlessly to get the article changed to their position. I mean, sure, reasonable people disagree on how to interpret sources and apply policy, but I don't think BabbleOnto is actually interested in faithful application of policies to write high quality articles based on good sources.
That's not terribly problematic by itself, but most discussions with BabbleOnto are exhausting. Rather than actually trying to understand someone's argument in good faith, I think BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible, and making a superficially reasonable response ad nauseam. They reply endlessly in this manner. As well as misrepresentation of opponents' arguments, on multiple occassions BabbleOnto has either misrepresented sources or hasn't read their own sources. I can't think of a single thread where BabbleOnto didn't have the last word, or a single thread where it seemed like BabbleOnto was actually trying to understand the arguments of other editors in a charitable way. As such, I think it's very difficult to work collaborately with BabbleOnto on the lab leak theory and related articles. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Newimpartial
As the editor to whom BabbleOnto was responding in the diffs of the filing, I feel compelled to comment now that they have defended (to varying degrees) their first three diffs. I will reply as briefly as I know how to their defense of the diffs, as revised.
1. BabbleOnto is now doubling down on the claim that I misquoted the article
. I didn't "misquote" the article - I didn't quote the article, and I explained what my comment meant in the rest of the (now collapsed) thread that ends here. Also, I provided a clear explanation of why I thought they were second-guessing sources later in the thread, but BabbleOnto never responded to that explanation. They are now responding to the accusation of WP:CPUSH with pure WP:IDONTHEARTHAT.
2. On this they say, now, that The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it.
This is repeating a misreading they made in the original thread, where they mistook a statement I made about another editor's comment as if it were about theirs. In this "defense", I see no attempt to read thoughtfully what other editors say in reply to them and revise their understanding accordingly; all I see is zero-sum mentality and WP:IDHT.
3. BabbleOnto is now justifying an edit where they said to me, You have a habit of inserting small lies into everything you say
and You're not adding anything constructive. You're just refusing to explain anything and saying conclusory statements, or lying about what you said
- all this based on a misreading of what I had actually written - because I was going to refer to a basic failure in reading comprehension
two hours later. This seems like a time travel paradox.
4. They don't bother defending themselves on this one, but just to point out the actual issue with the diff, they doubled down on their accusations that I said a material lie
, and that I lied when said that quoted the article out of context. Pointing out being caught lying
and then proceeded to STRAWMAN the rest of my comment to which they were replying. If they had read my prior comment with a reasonable level of attention, they would have understood that there were no "lies", just a misunderstanding or two in each direction. But WP:IDHT again; even in responding to this filing BabbleOnto is still insisting I did things that I quite obviously didn't do.
It is exhausting to deal with this kind of quasi-CPUSH (not quite civil, but certainly push) behaviour. The Talk page in question has seen a recent influx of single-purpose or nearly single-purpose POV accounts, and in terms of editor energy, this one certainly seems not to be a net positive for Misplaced Pages as a project. Perhaps if they edited away from Covid and US politics, their track record might improve. Newimpartial (talk) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Objective3000
Just a quick aside to Valereee's aside: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn....
Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory currently has posts from 19 editors lacking the edits for extended confirmed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Valereee, this is also a problem at other CTOPs, and is likely to become more problematic. I assume due to off-Wiki forums. ECR might just produce more users gaming EC. I thought it would be useful to put your aside into the CTOP template at the top of CTOP TPs. But that assumes folks read it. Walt Kelly said something along the lines of: “If only I could write, I’d write a letter to the mayor, if only he could read." This discussion is likely better off elsewhere. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note: IntrepidContributor was just TBanned from the topic of COVID-19 and indef blocked until the accusations of off-wiki coordination made by them at ANI are retracted. Those accusations are like their suggestion made in their statement in this filing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by JoelleJay
At the very least, can we get more admin involvement on the lab leak page so trolling like this doesn't disrupt things even more? JoelleJay (talk) 07:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by IntrepidContributor
I have been observing BabbleOnto and while there are valid concerns about bludgeoning, I think the proposed sanctions are too much. His engagement in the Covid lab leak topic is driven by commitment to WP:NPOV, which our articles fail to adhere to, and he made the mistake of arguing with editors who were never going to listen (resulting in what looks like sealioning on his part). He's not only editor to raise issues in the topic and engage in good faith discussion, only to find themselves pulled to AN or AE disputes after staying out of the seasoning traps and refusing to capitulate to threats. In a parallel AN case concerning another editor in same topic, I suggest there may be possible off-wiki coordination , but it can also be on-wiki ().
One need only cross-reference names from Feb 2021 RfC, checking those that voted for labeling COVID-19 lab leak as conspiracy, with the names of complainants here. Contrast all these old timers with the steady stream of tens if not hundreds of regular editors complaining that our article fails NPOV, and see that their gentle approach doesn't work . Our chief complainant is already preparing his next case , and this might not be his first.
I suggest that administrators consider a 1 to 2 month topic ban for BabbleOnto to provide opportunity for him to correct his approach, while staying alert to the tactics of POV editors trying to draw them into content debates to influence outcomes.
IntrepidContributor (talk) 14:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by TarnishedPath
Please see this edit where BabbleOnto edited Gain of function research restoring previously reverted content and WP:POVPUSH using a shit source after they'd been told by multiple other editors in discussions here and here that the source was shit. Notably in the edit summary they wrote "Read discussion page. Manual revert. No serious challenge has been made to these changes. Methinks an admin needs to get involved...
" despite them being in a WP:1AM situation. If a clue is not gotten by the editor fast I'd suggest TBANs from both COVID and AP2 is warranted in order to cease their disruption. TarnishedPath 04:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Noting the editor's continued behaviour at Talk:Gain-of-function research. Refer to Special:Diff/1270316266. TarnishedPath 01:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by berchanhimez
This user was given no less than 4 chances on the talk page to stop talking about bans/other editors and start talking about the content. They have continued crying about how they're scared of getting banned... yet they continue blabbing about other editors getting banned for their bad behavior rather than refocusing on the content as requested. At a minimum a partial block from the talk page(s) in question is warranted, and it would be beneficial for a topic ban from the origins of COVID-19, broadly construed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Shibbolethink
I am heavily involved in this overall dispute as someone who has gone back and forth with BabbleOnto. I wanted to add that, in general, my feeling from interacting with this user is that they could be a good contributor to this site, and absolutely could follow the PAGs. They have shown an ability to be courteous . I think the issue is that in FRINGE and other contentious areas like COVID-19 origins, they have shown a tendancy to become "hot-headed" when tensions rise, and to reference an us vs them mentality (and numerous examples from others above). It seems they have also been egged-on, and made more combative from other PROFRINGE users (and probably some anti-FRINGE users as well who do admittedly WP:BITE) in that topic space (e.g. )
We are told often to use narrowest possible restriction to protect the project. In this case, I think that would be a COVID-19 origins TBAN, where most of the disruption has been. The user states they have learned what to do when consensus is against them. If they fail to show that lesson in AP2 articles more than just the 10 or so edits they've made in those articles, an AP2 TBAN would be appropriate at that time (WP:ROPE). Just my 2 cents.— Shibbolethink 22:05, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning BabbleOnto
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- BabbleOnto, please edit your statement down further to fit within the restriction. This also serves as an opportunity to rephrase your defense, which currently is not convincing at first glance. ProcrastinatingReader's description of the situation seems quite apt, particularly
BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible
, which is currently a pretty fitting description of your response to them here, given that you zeroed in on the "superficially reasonable" part and ignored the much more serious parts of the testimony. signed, Rosguill 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)- Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at Talk:Brian Thompson (businessman)/Archive 2 exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes WP:1AM. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics/American politics. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. signed, Rosguill 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Valereee in line with their follow-up response, I take Objective3000's comments as potentially a basis for community discussion rather than a call for protective action on the lab leak talk page right now. signed, Rosguill 21:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at Talk:Brian Thompson (businessman)/Archive 2 exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes WP:1AM. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics/American politics. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. signed, Rosguill 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have to agree, this looks like sealioning. BabbleOnto, you're new here, and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt about your ability to learn to collaborate. WP works on collaboration and consensus, and sometimes consensus goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. You have to be willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you. And you absolutely must not insist everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers. I've seen editors at both the Thompson and the lab leak talks tell you they don't actually owe you an answer to your satisfaction.
- Do you think you can learn to do that? Because if you don't think you can, this may not be the right hobby for you.
- As an aside, I'm going to recommend what I always recommend to new editors who end up here: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn. Go edit in noncontentious topics, where other editors are a lot less exhausted and have the energy to be more patient with new editors. Valereee (talk) 18:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Tangential |
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- BabbleOnto, are you planning to answer my questions above? Do you think you're able/willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you? Are you able/willing to stop insisting everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers? Valereee (talk) 13:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- BabbleOnto's response understanding this as a suggestion to take a break from Misplaced Pages as a whole isn't quite what I was hoping to see. signed, Rosguill 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @BabbleOnto, an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around.
- @Rosguill, I'd support a tban, but is AP2 enough? It seems like COVID and fringe science need to be included? Valereee (talk) 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- AP2 + COVID? I see the same behavior at the Brian Thompson article and Havana Syndrome, so COVID alone doesn't seem adequate. Oddly, the intersection of "medicine and politics" would appear to cover all affected topics but maybe that's too bespoke? signed, Rosguill 17:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @BabbleOnto, re:It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to personally agree with the consensus, beyond just respecting it, no, you don't have to agree. You just have to accept and move on. Valereee (talk) 23:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think BabbleOnto is actually getting the right idea. You do not have to agree with consensus. There are some consensus positions here I don't agree with, and some I think are rather silly. But, until and unless they change, I respect and abide by them all the same. If I try to challenge them, and it becomes clear that such a challenge was unsuccessful, there comes a time to just shrug, realize you can't win 'em all, and move on. Since they seem to have gotten that point, I think maybe see how things go, and if they return to disruption, I think they're quite clear on what the results of that will be. Seraphimblade 14:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- In my experience sealioning is a habit editors have an extremely difficult time breaking. I was going to agree with Rosguill re: a tban from AP2 + COVID, maybe appealable after 3 months and 500 productive and unproblematic edits. This editor is basically ONLY editing in CTOPs, they're doing it disruptively -- we're talking about an editor with only 177 whom other editors are describing as exhausting to interact with! -- and the specific kind of disruption is both frustrating and tedious to prove and frustrating to try to get attention to because who you need so many diffs to prove it. That plus the apparent difficulty in breaking that habit, which btw they were continuing during this case...I dunno. Valereee (talk) 14:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I certainly understand your point. I am a little hesitant to sanction for "sealioning", as often it is difficult to tell where enthusiasm ends and disruptive tendentiousness begins, and I certainly do not want to have a project where people are afraid to advocate viewpoints contrary to a current consensus. That said, if everyone else feels sanctions are warranted, I won't object terribly strongly; I just generally prefer someone to get a chance to show if they've gotten the point (or in some cases, to conclusively demonstrate that they have not). Seraphimblade 20:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Generally I'm with you. Let people show they've dealt with the issue. Reblocking is pretty easy in most cases. But sealioning...well, it's such a difficult issue to prove/assess, and there are so many people doing it who don't even have the self-awareness to fix the problem that I kind of feel like it needs a tougher approach than I'd normally argue for. Not a hill I'm going to die on, but if the editor is back here or at ANI for the same issue, I am going to be extremely unhappy with them.
- @BabbleOnto, do you understand what we're talking about when we describe your participation at talk pages as WP:sealioning, and why we think it's such a problem, particularly in contentious topics? Do you think you can avoid participating in that way at article talk pages? Valereee (talk) 20:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I certainly understand your point. I am a little hesitant to sanction for "sealioning", as often it is difficult to tell where enthusiasm ends and disruptive tendentiousness begins, and I certainly do not want to have a project where people are afraid to advocate viewpoints contrary to a current consensus. That said, if everyone else feels sanctions are warranted, I won't object terribly strongly; I just generally prefer someone to get a chance to show if they've gotten the point (or in some cases, to conclusively demonstrate that they have not). Seraphimblade 20:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- In my experience sealioning is a habit editors have an extremely difficult time breaking. I was going to agree with Rosguill re: a tban from AP2 + COVID, maybe appealable after 3 months and 500 productive and unproblematic edits. This editor is basically ONLY editing in CTOPs, they're doing it disruptively -- we're talking about an editor with only 177 whom other editors are describing as exhausting to interact with! -- and the specific kind of disruption is both frustrating and tedious to prove and frustrating to try to get attention to because who you need so many diffs to prove it. That plus the apparent difficulty in breaking that habit, which btw they were continuing during this case...I dunno. Valereee (talk) 14:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Marlarkey
Marlarkey p-blocked from Declaration of war and formally warned to be more mindful of policies, guidelines and best practices when editing CTOPs, particularly PIA signed, Rosguill 19:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Marlarkey
User has been on Misplaced Pages (on and off) since at least January 2010. It seems there is a WP:CIR-related issue on ArbCom PIA/Contentious topics, given the very clear lack of ignorance of the ArbCom Notification and subsequent edit summary arguments. I do not necessarily believe a block will be of use in this case, due to this editor's on-and-off Misplaced Pages editing status (less than 500 edits since January 2010). Either a topic ban and/or a 1,000 EC status requirement (i.e. EC-status requirement is something higher than 500 edits) is being requested. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Discussion concerning MarlarkeyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by MarlarkeyWeatherWriter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is repeatedly reverting edits which are removing information outside the scope of the page in question. My edits are validly citated within the scope of the page. WeatherWriter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has cited WP:ARBPIA but that is not relevant to THIS article which is not a Palestine-Israel article. This article is not a contentious topic - it is factual. My edits are WP:NPOV. This article is about declarations of war - the opening statement states "A declaration of war is a formal act by which one state announces existing or impending war activity against another." 1. Hamas is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hamas should not be included in the article 2. Hezbollah is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hezbollah should not be included in the article 3. Russia vs Ukraine are both nation states - the question then is whether there has been a declaration of war. In the case 1 & 2, the removal of these two entries is WP:NPOV and the inclusion or otherwise in this article is in no way a comment on the conflict in question - only whether they constitute a declaration of war by one nation state on another. Which they do not because they are nation states. In the case of 3, the inclusion of Russia vs Ukraine only relies on whether there has been a declaration of war. The citation I gave is documented evidence of Russia announcing that a state of war exists between Russia and Ukraine. I suggest that by taking the action they have that the complainant is the one acting in a that asserts a political opinion about the conflict
Weatherwriter reversions of my edits serve to support a political opinion on a page which is about facts. I'm pretty angry about being accused in this way when MY edits were factually based and neutral point of view, whereas by reverting my edits it does precisely the opposite, allowing contentious and politically biased information to infect the page. GRRRRRRrrr Marlarkey (talk) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Again this makes me angry at the accusations being made against me. If you don't want people editing and contributing to[REDACTED] then please just say so. GRRR Marlarkey (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Result concerning Marlarkey
Marlarkey, you have gone a bit over your 500 word allotment for responses. Please do not comment further unless directly asked to. I will remove an additional reply that was both over your limit and in the wrong section. signed, Rosguill 00:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm thus inclined to suggest an indefinite partial block from Declaration of war (but not its talk page) as a regular admin action for edit warring, and a logged warning to be mindful of CTOP standards. signed, Rosguill 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC
|
DanielVizago
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning DanielVizago
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Schazjmd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- DanielVizago (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_and_sexuality#Final_decision
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 29 Dec 2024 Added Category:Misandry to a BLP, after CTOP notification and several talk page messages notifying DanielVizago that the category is not to be applied to articles about individuals (per category description,
This category is for issues relating to misandry. It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly misandrist.
); - 4 Jan 2025 and 5 Jan 2025 Removing sourced content from Misogyny that states misandry is not a major an issue as misogyny;
- 5 Jan 2025 Changing content in Male privilege to emphasize misandry (reverted by another editor with edit summary
rv, poorly sourced (sources supplemented by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH), earlier version was better, closer to sources
); - 13 Jan 2025 Added "bimisandry" to Biphobia, citing 4 sources, none of which include that term;
- 14 Jan 2025, weird edits adding Category:Female rapists with piped names to unrelated articles, then added those names directly to the category page;
- 14 Jan 2025 restored the "bimisandry" edit to Biphobia, then added a 5th ref that includes the term but is just a blog; I left a 4th-level warning on talk page;
- 14 Jan 2025 (after final warning) adds ] and ] to Hurtcore; those two individuals don't have articles and there is no mention in this article of their charges or convictions, even though the category solely consists of
articles of female individuals who have been convicted of rape in a court of law.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- None
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- I alerted them on 28 Dec 2024
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Above diffs are all edits after the CTOP notification was provided. Before then, DanielVizago misapplied Category:Misandry to 46 articles, which is what caught my attention. Their attempts to add "bimisandry" to Biphobia started 16 Dec 2024. On 28 Dec 2024, DanielVizago added a lot of content to Supremacism about misandry, which another editor reverted with edit summary remove recently added pro-fringe section and put back the excerpt
. Most of their 122 edits have been reverted by multiple editors.
Before the level 4 warning, I tried guiding DanielVizago away from CTOP; they don't engage on their talk page. (They've posted there once, to say "thanks" in response to a warning.) With their refusal to communicate, poor sourcing, and non-NPOV edits, I don't think they should be editing in this topic area. Schazjmd (talk) 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning DanielVizago
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by DanielVizago
Statement by caeciliusinhorto
Since this report was opened, DanielVizago has continued to make questionable edits adding articles to Category:Female rapists.
- Possibly the worst edit, categorising a living person who has been accused (but not charged, let alone convicted) of sexual assault as a rapist (cf. WP:BLPCRIMINAL)
- This edit adds the category to a disambiguation page on the basis of one of the people listed on that page, who had in fact been convicted not of rape but of sexual activity with a minor
- this and this edit categorise two sexually-motivated murderers as rapists despite no evidence that they ever raped anyone in the article (cf. WP:CATV)
Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Simonm223
Might be wise, as long as doing so wouldn't interfere with evidence, to get a revision deletion on some of the diffs presented above that make unfounded statements about BLPs. Simonm223 (talk) 18:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning DanielVizago
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I've p-blocked from article space to see if we can get this editor communicating. Valereee (talk) 12:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I want to hear what they have to say, but I'm going to need a fairly convincing explanation as to how they're here to build an encyclopedia and not to POV-push men's rights activism content where it doesn't belong. The IDHT and spammy behavior and the BLP vios on top of that aren't super encouraging, either, but if they decide to communicate, I'm happy to reassess. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:56, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd like to hear what they have to say, too, but I'm also not averse to letting this archive with no further action since the p-block is an indef. I've left another message at their talk. Valereee (talk) 13:41, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
]
Ekdalian
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Ekdalian
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- NXcrypto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Ekdalian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBIPA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 12:51, 11 January 2025 - Restoring recently added disputed content, contrary to WP:ONUS
- 21:55, 11 January 2025 - Casting unsubstantiated aspersions and poisoning the well against another editor.
- 12:01, 13 January 2025 - Poisoning the well against another user without any evidence of misconduct.
- 19:11, 15 January 2025 - Restoring recently added disputed content again and essentially asking to get consensus for it, contrary to WP:ONUS.
- 15:05, 16 January 2025 - Performs a blanket revert in order to make a WP:POINT, just because their previous edit was reverted, despite it being the version that was arrived upon by a month long discussion on the talkpage, also saying "LE also wants to discuss and revisit the content proposed by the sock" , LukeEmily later elaborated that they are okay with the version that Ekdalian was actually reverting
- 17:42, 16 January 2025 - Same as above but edit warring
- 19:42, 16 January 2025 - Edit warring and casting aspersions saying that reverting editor is acting like the blocked sock Nobita456 "stop behaving like Nobita please"
- 14:31, 18 January 2025 - Attacks and tries to poison the well against another editor also says that "WP:ONUS doesn't mean you need to achieve consensus with editors condemned by admins for persistent POV pushing! "
- 18:47, 18 January 2025 - Restores the aforementioned attack saying "Related to the content only, related to WP:CONSENSUS to be precise; accept the truth, I don't want to report minor incidents" when told to focus on content
- 18:29, 19 January 2025 - calling a WP:NOTVANDAL edit as vandalism and issues final warning for vandalism
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Has a {{Ds/aware|ipa}} template for the area of conflict on their own talk page. and notified of WP:ARBIPA by Dennis Brown in 2022
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I also note that Ekdalian has a history of aggressive edit warring in the contentious topic as a part of slow running edit war.On Bengali Kayastha, many of their most recent edits have been reverts to prevent content addition as well. It has gotten to the point where experienced users like Sitush have called them out for it because they usually misrepresent the consensus or comments by editors such as Sitush to claim that consensus already exists when there is none, they do not provide diffs when asked to substantiate their claims either. They have been reprimanded in past over similar conduct about misrepresentation and exaggeration by @Dennis Brown: on this venue as well. They have a history of attacking other users and trying to poison the well against them instead of focusing on the content as diffs above prove.
I am not seeking any topic bans but Ekdalian should be at least told not to misuse the talk page for adding more fuel into heated disputes, and use the revert button only when it is necessary. Nxcrypto Message 03:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm unimpressed by your defence of #10, it was an unsourced change, sure disruptive but not vandalism (which has a very specific meaning). Please refer to WP:NOTVANDAL. Nxcrypto Message 07:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Ekdalian
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Ekdalian
I have nothing to say as such! I have been serving Misplaced Pages since 2013, particularly related to contentious caste articles, fighting against caste promotion, POV pushing and vandalism. Heated debates are common in the contentious topics. I have neither violated 3RR, nor abused any editor! Yes, in case someone has been topic banned and condemned by admins, I do mention the same so that NPOV is not violated. Many admins are aware of my activities including SPI, anti-disruption and anti-vandalism. Thanks & Regards. Ekdalian (talk) 06:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Action (warning) may be taken against NXcrypto for being unable to identify vandalism (refer to point number 10), and wasting the time of our admins! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 06:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nxcrypto, it is a clear case of vandalism. The user intends to misrepresent and project their caste as Kulin Kayastha (higher status among Bengali Kayasthas) by intentionally changing Eastern (Bengal) to Western! Moreover, the user has done similar vandalism in multiple articles only in order to promote Western Bengali Guhas. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 08:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- In response to Bishonen's comments, I would like to inform here that Sitush is referring to my response at a time when Nobita456's sock was driving a discussion and I had filed an SPI! Therefore, I was delaying the discussion in order to eliminate the sock from the same. Sitush has been quoted out of context! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 12:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Orientls, the user has already been blocked for vandalism; I have years of experience in this area and quite sure of what I have mentioned! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 06:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Bishonen: I have clearly mentioned that I am not sure! But, Orientls seems to be so sure that they have stated that I am 'falsely' accusing him of meatpuppetry! How can you be so sure that there has been no mail exchanges? Orientls, do you think you are God? Regards. Ekdalian (talk) 06:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Orientls
I find this comment by Ekdalian unpalatable: "The user intends to misrepresent and project their caste as Kulin Kayastha." How are you so sure of their caste? I don’t see where they have self-identified as such, and you also accuse them of attempting to project "their caste'" with another one by "vandalising" Misplaced Pages, which is a serious accusation against a new editor. I think an editor of your tenure should be able to recognize what constitutes vandalism because those edits are not vandalism, you should also refrain from speculating about the caste of editors.
This reasoning seems odd, especially when Sitush himself states: "CharlesWain began this discussion. They are not a sock, are they?" , implying that you were opposing changes proposed by an editor who was not a sock by misrepresenting Sitush's comments. I also think canvassing was inappropriate, particularly with its problematic heading, "Kind attention: Bishonen and admins active here." It sounds as if you are trying to recruit people to back you up here.
Honestly, I’m not surprised by the diffs cited in the report, especially if your conduct at ARE is like this where your edits are under scrutiny.
@Bishonen: While the filer himself made it clear that he is not "seeking any topic bans", Ekdalian deserves a topic ban following this new message. By calling an editor with almost 4k edits a "comparatively new user" and falsely accusing him of "meatpuppetry", Ekdalian has proven he is not capable of editing here without poisoning the well and making personal attacks. Orientls (talk) 03:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Ekdalian
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I will point out that I was canvassed to this discussion by Ekdalian. That said, I'll state that I don't think NXcrypto's diffs are anything much; it's surely a stretch to call them "casting apersions" and "poisoning the well" and the like, especially in the IPA area where the tone is often sharp. The comments by Sitush are a little more concerning, though. Bishonen | tålk 10:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC).
Alex 19041
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Alex 19041
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Est. 2021 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Alex 19041 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Alex 19041
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Alex 19041
I have been made aware of the rules and will follow them in the future - I hope this suffices as a statement as I don't think there is anything worth adding that hasn't been said already
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Alex 19041
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- To recap what's already been said at the initial hearing this got at ARBCOM, it has been identified that Alex19041 is not extended-confirmed, has now been made aware of the 30/500 editing restriction for PIA, has acknowledged that they should not make any edits to the topic, but has not quite acknowledged that they also should not make comments relating to the topic outside of article space. If they can acknowledge that, an IBAN would be unnecessary as they will not be engaging further with the discussion at-issue for some time. If they can't acknowledge that, we'd likely need to escalate to blocks, as there's no reason to expect the IBAN to be observed. Some concern was also raised that Est. 2021's replies to Alex 19041 included personal attacks, although it should be noted that Est. 2021 has made an effort to remove potentially-problematic statements from their prior comments at ARBCOM (sections on their talk page containing similar language have been removed entirely, which is within their purview on a user talk page). signed, Rosguill 16:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- (came here from the ill-fated ArbCom case request). I agree with Rosguill. Some assurance from Alex 19041 and from Est. 2021 that they will leave the problematic edits behind would be good.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree that the reported user needs to show some understanding that as a non-EC user, they need to leave this CTOP alone across all namespaces. However, sanctions are for serious, ongoing problems, three unwelcome talk page posts made over the course of an hour does not strike me as sufficient cause for a formal iban. If there's more to it than that, it needs to be made clear, with diffs. Beeblebrox 21:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- It doesn't look like Alex 19041 has edited since the case started. Alex, if you are seeing this, you do need to come in here and respond. Ignoring this will not make it go away. Valereee (talk) 15:33, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Denali-related pages
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Denali-related pages
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Beeblebrox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Pages about which enforcement is requested
- Denali-related pages
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:CT/AP
I think this is the right place to ask for this? Requesting an expansion of WP:CT/AP to cover all articles related to Denali, as it has unfortunately become a political hot-button issue as the POTUS made it a prioroty on his first day back in office to sign an executive order to revert the name of the mountain back to "Mt. McKinley".
In the past twenty-four hours there has been heavy editing/disruption in articles and on related talk pages and protection has been needed at several. Denali was probably hit hardest, but Denali–Mount McKinley naming dispute got some too, as has Denali National Park and Preserve, which is explicitly not even part of the executive order. I wouldn't be surprised if the same issue is happening in Gulf of Mexico related articles, but haven't checked for myself. Beeblebrox 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, just checked Gulf of Mexico. 28 new talk page sections in the past day, was already ECP protected two weeks ago per WP:CT/AP.
- I kinda think a single admin could do this, but I am editorially involved and probably slightly too infuriated to be objective. Beeblebrox 22:32, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the replies, that's kind of what I thought, but again didn't want to act on it as I'm editorially involved. Beeblebrox 22:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Discussion concerning Denali-related pages
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Denali-related pages
Statement by Isabelle
Since I've protected Denali's talk page, I will comment here. I agree that we will be seeing serious issues in the coming month, considering all the shit the new president is throwing at the wall, but I believe the administrators are well equip to deal with this at the moment. I believe Valereee has protected the Gulf of Mexico's talk page, and I've dealt with Mount Denali's. We might need to apply more extensive protection during this coming month to stop the vandals, but current tools will do just fine. Isabelle Belato 23:04, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Valereee
Pinged here: yes, I've semi'd Talk:Gulf of Mexico, yesterday for 24 hours, today for another 31. I dislike protecting a talk, but it was a burden for editors working there. Valereee (talk) 23:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- 100+ edits today on the article, which is EC protected. I feel like that's a lot. Valereee (talk) 23:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Denali-related pages
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @Beeblebrox: AMPOL already covers "Post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed". I think that "broadly construed" would include Denali and Gulf of Mexico in the current moment. In any event, I think you'd want to go to ARCA, not here, for an amendment. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, Denali is already ECP and Denali National Park and Preserve has semi-protection. There's no protection on Denali–Mount McKinley naming dispute, but I'm not seeing anything in the page history that would justify it.l voorts (talk/contributions) 22:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- AE couldn't expand the scope of an existing CT designation; only ArbCom could do that. But I don't think we need to. If the disruption is related to a current American politics controversy, that's clearly related to "post-1992 politics of the United States", and so is already in scope of the existing CT designation. So, I'd say just treat it as such. Seraphimblade 22:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Callmehelper
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Callmehelper
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Srijanx22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:30, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Callmehelper (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 4 January - Violates copyrights
- 19 January - Files a frivolous report against other editors, mislabels their edits as "vandalism" and then rudely responds to onlookers as also noted by Liz by saying "That's a very rude reply, Callmehelper."
- 19 January - Mislabels an edit as "vandalism".
- 21 January - Trying to get article on a non-notable subject created and not dropping the WP:STICK.
- 21 January - Casts WP:ASPERSIONS against the new page patrollers, and demeans them as "
people those rejected are so much had biased opinions that I can't discuss.
"
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Callmehelper
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Callmehelper
This is my side ;
- 1 Allegation : Yes, it was indeed a copyright violation. This was my first encounter to something like copyright violation. Which i just copy-paste of a paragraph from govt website. Then one senior editor tell me in my talk page about what copyright violation is and how that works, and it was my very healthy and learning session for me tbh. Please see the whole discussion, then it will exhibit a full picture. First conversion happened in my talk page seethen little more conversations happened in his talk page pls see And ultimately matter solved and i learnt by this conversations and after that i never did anything like copyright violation. I don't know why this issue is used here against me.
- 2nd Allegation : This is little complex and long problem. Although i explain it very deeply during AN/I. But i will cut it short. It was started very much before. Firstly someone tag me about this vandalism by saying that one editor try to manipulate some paragraph in that page then i got involved in this. I restored that paragraph but it was reverted by again that guy and it keep going for sometime, then i told them in his talk page but he just delete that talk without replying, then i go for article talk page and write all that issue but no one replied, then i go to two administrator personal talk page, one was busy and one told me that i should go for AN/I but here also i got no reply for 2 days. after all that someone replied that i should go for main article talk page, which i was already did. this was disappointing for me as i feel in a loop as in talk page no one replied. so i replied very rudely but it was more of a frustration for 4 days. But nevertheless, I apologise to that editor and that senior editor named Lez who told me about my rudeness, in next reply. Moreover i also apologise to that editor in his talk page on same day.
- 3 Allegations : It was related to 2nd allegation. It was indeed a Vandalism, because after discussion done in that talk page that editor was again removing all this , so i had to go to his talk page and said about this is Vandalism pls stop doing it but again that guy deleted my vandalism warning without replying to me see , But ultimately that editor stopped doing vandalism in that page and it then remains restored after so my efforts for continuous 5 days.
But i don't know how that respected complainer think that this is not vandalism? IT WAS VANDALISM.
- 4th & 5th Allegations : I am not aware about WP:Stick. Simply I make a draft and leave a (template submit) in my draft and then it goes for discussion. After so much long long conversations, it was finalized that the draft is still not acceptable as it lack Notability and i ultimately accept that and this conversation end in very light way. pls see
My Conclusion: I whenever make any statement in uncivil manner i never ever leave as it is without my apology. i apologise to those whenever i feel that i replied them in uncivil way.
As i am not so english fluent, so i don't have much dictionaries of words, so ultimately some my words reflect a little rudeness, but it was never be my intention. so apologise to him immediately.
Although i am new , but i am sure i will be adapt myself very soon about all the policies. I also work on myself perticularly about my choice of words.
Those seniors who seen my choice of bad words should advice/warm me in my talk page instead of going direct complaining, as i seen such policy as , as i never ignored any type of warning/advice or suggestions.
This was my side.
I will accept any kind of warning or ban after all.
Thanks.
Much Regards.
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Callmehelper
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.