Talk:List of people from Croatia: Difference between revisions

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			{{Talk header}}
	{{msg:controversial}}
			{{WikiProject banner shell\|class=List\|blp=yes\|listas=Croats, List Of\|1=
			{{WikiProject Biography}}
			{{WikiProject Croatia\|importance=top}}
			{{WikiProject Lists\|class=list\|importance=low}}
			}}

			{{Controversial}}
	==Doubts==

			== Criteria ==
	I see that the user from 67.x.y.z has been having a field day with this page. While I can appreciate enthusiasm, some of the edits are on a very slippery slope.
	For example:

			Currently, "List of Croats" is defined in the lead as:
	* ] is alleged to have been born on the Croatian island of ], to a Slavic family called ''Polić'' natively but changed to ''de Polo'' in order to naturalize to the Venetian government (Dalmatia was mostly ruled by ] those days), and later moved to Venice themselves. The de Polo's still live in Korčula today (my mother happens to be from there so I know for sure), and there's a house that's a small tourist attraction because it's "the birthplace of Marco Polo", but whether the explorer himself was (or the extent of his heritage) from this family is not so certain AFAIK.
			: "list of prominent individuals who were Croatian citizens or of Croatian ancestry."
			While "prominent" may be presumed to imply the ] criterion, this definition is not entirely unambiguous, and may be also problematic in some respects. Here are some questions that need to be answered:
			# Do we want to include "Croatian citizens" or just ethnic Croats? (E.g. Nikola Tesla meets the former criterion, but not the latter.) There are arguments in favor of both options.
			# Do we construe "Croatian citizens" broadly as not only people who are or were citizens of the Republic of Croatia (1991-present), but also all people who lived and were associated with the same territory? Again, Tesla was strictly speaking never a Croatian citizen, but could be reasonably considered one "retroactively".
			# "Croatian ancestry" presumably means "<nowiki>] ancestry</nowiki>", but it is fairly clear that "person of Croatian ancestry"<>"Croat". Are all n-th generation Croats still Croats? Where do we draw the line? ] (]) 14:34, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

			'''Split'''. List of Croats (ethnic Croats) ≠ List of Croatians (nationality).--] 14:44, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
	* ] was from ] (''Gradišće''), a province in easternmost Austria today that's known to be inhabited by many Croats (''gradišćanski Hrvati''), and many of his compositions are recorded by him as coming from folk songs. There are families in Croatia called Hajdinjak and similar, so many speculate that Haydns were originally Croats from Burgenland, but again, this is not at all certain.

			== Male or Female ==
	* ] was from ], and he was definitely a famous citizen of a Croatian city, but it's pretty stretched to outright declare him Croat. See the long discussion on ].

			Hi Folks, I have a suggestion that affects the entire list. Given that that the non-Croat (or non-slavic at least) world may not be familiar with Croat names, what do you think of adding a (M) or (F) after each name? I'm half Croatian and grew up with a fair amount of influence from the Northern California Croat community, but even names like ] and ] stumped me.--] (]) 16:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
	:: Serbian --]

			== Inferiority complex ==
	* ] is speculated to be Croat by some French scientist apparently amicable towards the Croats in general, based on some Croatian-sounding terms used in his literature? Very stretched to say the least.

			While reading the history of changes of this article I've 'learned' that Leonardo, Michelangello, Napoleon, Brigitte Bardot, Charlie Chaplin ... were Croats. I know there are many editors suffering from the inferiority complex which can be an explanation why all these 'were' Croats. I tried to clean the list removing the names which cannot be put on this list(Schwarz - an Austrian Jew, Boscovic - an Italian, Andric - a Serb). Alas, I see the same name back in the list .
	* ] was from Croatia but was from a ] family (probably originally ] due to the last name), not Croat.
			<blockquote>
			A sense of personal inferiority arising from conflict between the desire to be noticed and the fear of being humiliated.
			In psychology, a complex, or cluster of repressed fears, described by Alfred Adler based on physical inferiority. The term is popularly used to describe general feelings of inferiority and the overcompensation that often ensues.
			Adler described the complex as arising from the perceived inferiority of an organ or part of the body and leading to feelings of general inferiority. He believed that everyone suffered from inferiority feelings and that the desire or determination to relieve them determined people's behavior. Failure to deal with them could lead to neurotic symptoms.
			</blockquote>
			--] (]) 19:59, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

			== Ivo Andric ==
	:: You are embarrassing yourself as usual, Tesla is not a Vlach surname, it is a plowing tool, Slavic word. See town of Teslić as well. --]

			His mother was a Serbian, he refused to be listed as a Croatian in Yugoslav Encyclopedia. Please, respect his identity.--] (]) 23:16, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
	I think I also saw several Croatian Jews listed -- the extent of their naturalization should probably be verified before declaring them Croats.

			== External links modified ==
	Also there's ], who was not ethnically Croat but willfully became naturalized Croat. Conversely, ] was ethnically Croat but willfully became naturalized Serb. I suppose listing both kinds is the best compromise, but I'm not sure if that's the consensus.

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	So, anyway, my point is: tread lightly. --] 17:46, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

			I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	==John Malkovich==
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081011221504/http://www.sport5.co.il/articles.aspx?FolderID=64&docID=8505&lang=he to http://www.sport5.co.il/articles.aspx?FolderID=64&docID=8505&lang=he

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	As for John Malkovich- http://www.allstarz.org/~malkovich/financial.html
	Even though of Croatian and Scottish descent, Malkovich had a relatively
	typical Midwestern upbringing in the small Illinois town of Benton, some 300
	miles south of Chicago. His father published a conservation magazine and his
	mother ran the local newspaper. So there was no reason for the chubby and
	much-ridiculed John to be interested in sophisticated European culture --
	until he went to college. In 1976 he dropped out of a drama degree at
	Illinois State University, moved to Chicago and co-founded with several old
	friends the Steppenwolf Theatre Company, where he acted in and directed
	works by classic and modern European authors. It would become one of the
	most recognised regional groups in the US.

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	As much as Malkovich values its tradition and way of life, he says Europe is
	"not a place I take incredibly seriously: after all, it was the homeland of
	the Inquisition, totalitarianism, genocide and the invention of several
	bloody crusades". He also has harsh words for its media for what he deems
	unfair treatment of the US.] 21:30, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 16:14, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
	: Not only that, but he recently (2003) came to Croatia and commented publically on his two grandparents who emigrated from the country into the States. --] 22:15, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
	:: And not only that: I remember that back in 1991, Malkovich made a TV spot (actually, it was conceived by Croatian-American artist Nenad Bach) wherein he recited IN CROATIAN first 5-7 lines of Croatian National anthem "Lijepa naša domovino". It was a sign of support for the Croatian struggle for independence in war against Serbian aggression.] 13:07, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

			== Malkovich Croat? ==
	John Malkovich is actually of Serb origin and not of Croatian origin. His last name is of Serb origin and even though he says he's from Croatia, he's not actually a Croat. This hymn reciting was a mistake and he didn't really know what they were asking of him. He admitted that later on in print. Croatia used to have a large Serb minority until 1992 when they were prosecuted and ethnically cleansed from Croatia.
	BBC has him listed as of Serb origin: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/tennis/features/newsid_2893000/2893189.stm

			Read the answer here (Up to today, I do not know whether I am Croat, Montenegrin, or Bosnian)
	: Even if all you said was true, and I'm far from convinced it is esp. the blather at the end, none of that that would preclude his listing on this page. --] 18:46, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

			''Kada je prvi put u nekim novinama napisano da sam hrvatskog podrijetla, majka mi je rekla da potječemo iz Crne Gore, za što do tada također nisam čuo''--] (]) 06:33, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
	:: OK, BBC puts him as Serbian, now what guys, BBC is Greater Serbian propaganda too? A Maljkovic christened me and he is Serbian (from Lika), now what. I am taking him off just like Tesla and Pete Maravich. You Croats are going to have to find someone else to steal celebrities from, I suggest you claim Leonardo da Vinci on top of Marco Polo, Mozart as well as Haydn. --]

			== External links modified ==
	::: Just for the record, I have not been able to confirm anything about this admittal of Malkovich's, it's rather unsurprising to see Serbs and Croats with the same last and/or first names, and it's also entirely unsurprising to see Igor badmouth "us Croats" for whatever. I looked up Maravich and it seems that he was a Serb so that listing was apparently plain wrong (committed by the anonymous 6x.y.z.w user, I should mention), and the Polo and Haydn entries committed by the same user are also on shakey ground, but using that as an excuse to remove Tesla altogether is just too transparent. --] 16:59, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	==Rename==

			I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	It occurs to me that a better title for the page would be list of Croatians, because that doesn't imply ethnic nationalism, rather a link with the country, which may or may not be combined with ethnicity. And to avoid any claims of misappropriation, ethnic classification and/or name of political entity that controlled the place a person was from can be added next to each name. --] 22:15, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090312071208/http://www.amb-croatie.fr/croatie/saviez-vous.htm to http://www.amb-croatie.fr/croatie/saviez-vous.htm

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	Done now. Should be reasonably uncontroversial now. --] 12:57, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	-----

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 21:22, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
	==More Doubts==

			== External links modified ==
	Eh, that anonymous user went through the whole page like a tornado again... among other questionable things, ] Croatian?? I googled and found some site from Herceg Novi saying he was the son of a Serb... brrr, this looks like another Pandora's box. --] 00:13, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	: The page ] adds a somewhat explanatory twist on this story. --] 21:38, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

			I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	-----
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060304113226/http://www.nobilo.co.nz/ to http://www.nobilo.co.nz/
	==Rick Rossovich==

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	Found another odd case: ], an actor from California, had a great-great-grandfather who lived in Mošćenička Draga (on the coast in the ]). His IMDb entry, however also has an entry saying that this person was actually a Serb from Krajina, but the aforementioned place is not. --] 22:31, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
	:Quot"His IMDb entry, however also has an entry saying that this person was actually a Serb from Krajina". I suppose you mean http://www.us.imdb.com/name/nm0001685/bio ? This is a complete nonsense, added by some propagandist. There are no Rosović Serbs in "Krajina", and one can very well see this by typing this surname into search window of Cro phonebooks, http://www.htnet.hr/imenik/fset.html . Well, type Rosović, and you'll find 12 persons, all Croats (according to first names-one of them Hrvoje/Croat) in and around Mošćenićka Draga. Judging from clumsy syntax and pathetic effort to inform the public that "Krajina" (written as "Kranija") is not to be confused with Croatia or anything Croatian- it's pretty obvious that Serbian agitprop had been nosing around. I've seen Rossovich IMDB bio and there was no "Krajina" part. Then I've written in Wiki he was of Croatian ancestry. And, lo and behold- magically, "Krajina" ad appears on the Rossovich bio page. Coincidence. Yeah, in some parallel universe.] 23:53, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	:: Yeah, I had a bad feeling about it given the geographical inconsistency and bad spelling. How perverse. Thank you, I've just submitted the correction to the IMDb staff. --] 02:14, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 00:23, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
	----

			== Requested move 21 July 2018 ==
	==Thanks from Shallot==
	ChrisO, thanks for extending the introduction, though I doubt that it will help much with handling the abuse of those who consider the mere notion of association with a word involving the letters "C"/"H" and "R" is something abhorrent, and there certainly seem to be enough of those to go around... --] 14:07, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

			<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
	: What did I tell you... --] 21:38, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
			:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

			The result of the move request was: '''moved as requested''' per the discussion below. ]<small>]</small> 02:05, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
	==More on Haydn==
			----

			] → {{no redirect\|List of people from Croatia}} – Per ], ], and ], we cannot commingle "people from Croatia" and "people with some Croatian ancestry"; the latter ] anyway. Talk pages of articles with ambiguous titles like this show a lot of dispute about inclusion, and it's caused by an impermissibly confused scope and a misleading title. This should move for ] with almost all of the rest of our "people from {{var\|X}}" articles and categories. <small>The remaining "List of {{var\|Label}}s" and "List of {{var\|Label}} people" pages are being taken one RM at a time, since they vary between labels that are ethnic, national/regional, or both, on a case-by-case basis.</small> The scope will need cleanup; it is presently explicitly mixing people from Croatia and people who are not from there but identify as of Croatian heritage (what about 1/4 Croatian? 1/16? On the basis of what sources?). The latter is just not an encyclopedic criterion at all and is inevitably going to lead to OR and PoV. At this article it already has, and it's been tagged as problematic in this regard {{em\|since 2009}}. Time to just fix it. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 04:11, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
	I've taken Haydn off the list again. Look, even , who seems to have been a pretty ardent Croatianist, only ''speculated'' that Haydn was Croatian, and offered only circumstantial evidence. Moreover, a lot of Hadow's "evidence" is utterly subjective and based only on nationalist stereotypes.
			*'''Support''' per above and my reasoning at the move request at ]. ''']<sup><small>]</small></sup>''' 04:19, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

			*'''Comment'''. If I understand correctly, e.g. ] would be in scope of "List of people from Croatia"? I'd still slightly prefer the earlier name, "List of Croats" (the article was apparently stealthily renamed a while ago for whatever reason), although my gripe with it was that it never clearly defined the scope of the list (i.e. who is a "Croat"), and was therefore messy and pointless. ] (]) 13:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
	If there is solid documentary evidence, gathered since Hadow's day, that Haydn was of Croatian ancestry, I'd be happy to see this claim restored to the page. But speculation in the Misplaced Pages should labeled as such, not presented as fact.
			*:Tesla would still qualify, since he was born there. Also qualifies for American lists as a permanent resident and naturalized citizen. Would also qualify for a list of ethnic Serbs, if we wanted such a thing. "List of Croats" has all the problems of "List of Croatians". It's going to be confused a mixture of people who live in Croatia and people with some degree of Croatian ancestry but who have never set foot there. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 13:17, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
	--] 22:09, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' per nom. As I said, while I still feel "List of Croats" would be ideal, in the real world it devolved into an unfixable mess. (It ''might'' have worked as a list of people who ''self-identified'' as Croats, because it would be easier to get rid of all those nonsense entries, but "self-identified" would inevitably lead into another set of problems, chiefly with sourcing.) The new scope may not necessarily provide an easy way out, but I suppose it's still better than the alternatives. IMO, confusion with regard to the new scope is much less likely, but still possible (what precisely does it mean to be "from Croatia"?). However, these things can be stipulated later. ] (]) 13:57, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

			----
	: This anonymous user is really making a mess... --]
			:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a ]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

	==Maradona==

	Maradona is not a Croatian player thats for sure!!!!!
	] 13:22, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	I just found some info that some croatian TV once said but never confirmed again that Maradona has roots in Croatia. It was said something like his grand grand grand father from mothers side was Croat.
	Even if this is true than you can say ''grand grand grand father of Maradona'' was Croat but you have to provide his name too.

	For an example- Elizabeth II has family roots in Serbia but she is still English not Serbian.

	: Yeah, the overzealous anonymous user is at it again. I've moderated him on several occasions now... shrug --] 18:44, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	: Just for the record, the best information I dug out about this was that references other works but doesn't name them, and it's just one great-grandmother. --]

	:: ''Ovu informaciju, navodi, duguje Ljeposlavu Periniću, "hrvatskom kralju lutaka". Perinić, Hrvat koji je nakon drugog svjetskog rata emigrirao u Argentinu, rođen je 1922..''
	:: I think that we all know who was runnig to Argentina after WWII :(
	:: ] 11:47, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	: Not that this is particularly relevant to the matter at hand, but if you think he must have been a fascist, no, that doesn't really have to be. There's was economic emigration, as well as Communism-related emigration at that time. Anyway, again, the primary source isn't the guy who told something to Žubrinić, but the referenced French geneaologist. --] 16:20, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	but still if my grand mother is from papua new guinea i am not papuan new guinean :)
	and we are talking about grand grand grand...
	] 16:25, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	: You would still have Papua-New-Guinean ancestry and if there was a list of such people, it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to have you listed. A great-grandmother (as in this case) is not exactly close, but if one of his daughters is called ''Dalma'', then it's not unreasonable to assume that he is aware of his links to that branch of his family.
	: Anyway, the right thing to do would be to exclude the corner cases from the main list and have them in a separate section. --] 16:47, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	==Surname, Name format==

	It seems that the ''Surname, Name'' format has proven to be rather hard to maintain. We could get rid of all those pipe links and keep the page consistent easier. --] 18:11, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	==Croat==
	"This is a list of more or less famous people with Croatian heritage, born in or associated with Croatia or of Croatian ancestry, including both Croats and members of Croatia's national minorities:"

	From the top of the page. If Avala wishes to create a page of ], please go ahead. However this page isn't it. Like all other country list pages it takes in those of Croat ethnicity wherever they live and those born in Croatian who aren't ethnic Croats. ] 23:56, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)


	AHM AHM
	Mario Andretti was born in Italy and he is on the list just because that part of Italy is now Croatian!!!!!
	We can even add Dennis Rodman because he visited Croatia last summer! Why not add anyone who lived in SFRY after all Croatia was part of it so everyone born in SFRY are connected to Croatia and they can be on the list.
	Also I told you taht your denial of fascism is scaring me!
	] 12:45, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	: If Andretti doesn't qualify (parents emigrated after WWII?), that's okay, you don't have to apply ''reductio ad absurdum'' with Rodman/SFRY to remove him. The introduction rather clearly delineates who is included. Note also, claiming Istria is "that part of Italy" is rather POV... We can't and shouldn't exclude regions that weren't Croatia forever because then we'd have to exclude them all -- it was all ]/] before. Same goes for most other places in the world... I've no idea what is meant by the fascism reference... --] 16:36, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
	::His article says they fled Yugoslavia and lived in a displaced persons camp. Sounds like a borderline case but he did live in Croatia for a short time. ] 18:54, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)

	::: I looked up ]'s history a bit. His birthplace was part of a modern state (of Italy) and his family was Italian. Perhaps suitable for the corner case section... --] 19:34, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	::::'''NO'''. He is suitable for list of Italians because ,I will say again, this is not a list of people connected to Croatia, it clearly says list of '''Croatians''' and if he is '''Italian''' then I don`t know what are you trying to prove? Maybe you have inferiority complex because there are not enough world famous sportsman that are Croatian so you are laying claims for other people by saying they are Croatian but please heal your problems with your psychiatrist not Misplaced Pages! ] 07:51, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	::::: You seriously need to chill out. It's enough that we have one person who cannot be talked to, we don't need another.
	::::: Also, there needs to be consistency. ] was also born in the period between the world wars in Istria, and you haven't removed him. --] 13:51, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	::::::OK. Now they are both deleted and please don`t add them again because it is misleading to have them on this page.] 19:59, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	::::::: I would like to keep it that way, but it seems that the anonymous user just won't give up. I think if we provide the explanatory paragraph that this may placate them. --]

	:::::::: Anonymous user? WHO IS anonymous user TO MAKE MESS IN HERE? BAN HIM!] 19:27, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	:::::::::Perhaps we could establish whether these two gentlemen were ever Croatian citizens. If Andretti was a citizen and lived there a couple years before fleeing, I would say include him as a corner case. If his family fled immediately than he really has no connection. I couldn't find any information in English on Benvenuti -did he live in Croatia at all? ] 20:37, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)

	:::::::::: I think No. Maybe at most a year but in hell of life running away from revenge because of what fascist Italians did in WWII. On official website there is not a word about Croatia.]

	==Maradona==
	IF YOU WANT TO SAY THAT MARADONA IS CROATIAN THEN YOU ARE WRONG-SAY LIKE THIS GREAT GRAND GRAND MOTHER OF MARADONA CALLED XY WAS CROATIAN.
	IF YOU WANT TO ADD MARADONA CHANGE THE NAME List of Croatians TO List of People Somehow connected to Croatia!
	] 12:49, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	: I don't think anyone other than the anonymous user is saying that. They are way overzealous and need to be corrected. If they insist on reverting the page, they will get banned... --] 16:36, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

	==Ivan Duknovic==

	http://users.tyenet.com/kozlich/baroque.htm

	http://www.amb-croatie.fr/culture/renaissance_croatie.htm

	More to come. ] 17:48, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

			== unnecessary and redundant marks. ==
	: I don't think I removed this... I traced that person's pseudonym that has an article already, and moved the page accordingly, but it needs work. --] 17:54, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

			- Some people in the list are marked as "Jewish". I don't see how mentioning peoples religion would improve the list. I suggest removing the mark.
	==Latest crap commits==
			- Most people in the category "Architecture" are marked as "architect". This seems preety redundant to me.

			] (]) 07:39, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
	This time it wasn't just the 6x.y.z.w anonymous user, it was also User:GeneralPatton :( FYI: the ordering is alphabetical, the word "hero" is entirely unsuitable, explain on ] how it's a "lie" before changing his entry here (let alone removing it!), Kurjak certainly seems to be from Croatia even if you wish to insult him for being Bosniak and thief, Branko Lustig has a page so you can list his religion there, etc, etc. Kindly refrain from further mass-demolition. --] 11:40, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

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Currently, "List of Croats" is defined in the lead as:

"list of prominent individuals who were Croatian citizens or of Croatian ancestry."

While "prominent" may be presumed to imply the WP:LISTPEOPLE criterion, this definition is not entirely unambiguous, and may be also problematic in some respects. Here are some questions that need to be answered:

Do we want to include "Croatian citizens" or just ethnic Croats? (E.g. Nikola Tesla meets the former criterion, but not the latter.) There are arguments in favor of both options.
Do we construe "Croatian citizens" broadly as not only people who are or were citizens of the Republic of Croatia (1991-present), but also all people who lived and were associated with the same territory? Again, Tesla was strictly speaking never a Croatian citizen, but could be reasonably considered one "retroactively".
"Croatian ancestry" presumably means "] ancestry", but it is fairly clear that "person of Croatian ancestry"<>"Croat". Are all n-th generation Croats still Croats? Where do we draw the line? GregorB (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Split. List of Croats (ethnic Croats) ≠ List of Croatians (nationality).--Zoupan 14:44, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Male or Female

Hi Folks, I have a suggestion that affects the entire list. Given that that the non-Croat (or non-slavic at least) world may not be familiar with Croat names, what do you think of adding a (M) or (F) after each name? I'm half Croatian and grew up with a fair amount of influence from the Northern California Croat community, but even names like Ignjat and Vanja stumped me.--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Inferiority complex

While reading the history of changes of this article I've 'learned' that Leonardo, Michelangello, Napoleon, Brigitte Bardot, Charlie Chaplin ... were Croats. I know there are many editors suffering from the inferiority complex which can be an explanation why all these 'were' Croats. I tried to clean the list removing the names which cannot be put on this list(Schwarz - an Austrian Jew, Boscovic - an Italian, Andric - a Serb). Alas, I see the same name back in the list .

A sense of personal inferiority arising from conflict between the desire to be noticed and the fear of being humiliated. In psychology, a complex, or cluster of repressed fears, described by Alfred Adler based on physical inferiority. The term is popularly used to describe general feelings of inferiority and the overcompensation that often ensues. Adler described the complex as arising from the perceived inferiority of an organ or part of the body and leading to feelings of general inferiority. He believed that everyone suffered from inferiority feelings and that the desire or determination to relieve them determined people's behavior. Failure to deal with them could lead to neurotic symptoms.

--72.66.12.17 (talk) 19:59, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Ivo Andric

His mother was a Serbian, he refused to be listed as a Croatian in Yugoslav Encyclopedia. Please, respect his identity.--72.66.12.17 (talk) 23:16, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Malkovich Croat?

Read the answer here Do danas ne znam jesam li Hrvat, Crnogorac ili Bosanac (Up to today, I do not know whether I am Croat, Montenegrin, or Bosnian)

Kada je prvi put u nekim novinama napisano da sam hrvatskog podrijetla, majka mi je rekla da potječemo iz Crne Gore, za što do tada također nisam čuo--109.92.171.142 (talk) 06:33, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Requested move 21 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 02:05, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

List of Croatians → List of people from Croatia – Per WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:COATRACK, we cannot commingle "people from Croatia" and "people with some Croatian ancestry"; the latter isn't an encyclopedic classification anyway. Talk pages of articles with ambiguous titles like this show a lot of dispute about inclusion, and it's caused by an impermissibly confused scope and a misleading title. This should move for WP:CONSISTENCY with almost all of the rest of our "people from X" articles and categories. The remaining "List of Labels" and "List of Label people" pages are being taken one RM at a time, since they vary between labels that are ethnic, national/regional, or both, on a case-by-case basis. The scope will need cleanup; it is presently explicitly mixing people from Croatia and people who are not from there but identify as of Croatian heritage (what about 1/4 Croatian? 1/16? On the basis of what sources?). The latter is just not an encyclopedic criterion at all and is inevitably going to lead to OR and PoV. At this article it already has, and it's been tagged as problematic in this regard since 2009. Time to just fix it. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:11, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Support per above and my reasoning at the move request at Talk:List of people from Sardinia. Vaselineeeeeeee 04:19, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Comment. If I understand correctly, e.g. Nikola Tesla would be in scope of "List of people from Croatia"? I'd still slightly prefer the earlier name, "List of Croats" (the article was apparently stealthily renamed a while ago for whatever reason), although my gripe with it was that it never clearly defined the scope of the list (i.e. who is a "Croat"), and was therefore messy and pointless. GregorB (talk) 13:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Tesla would still qualify, since he was born there. Also qualifies for American lists as a permanent resident and naturalized citizen. Would also qualify for a list of ethnic Serbs, if we wanted such a thing. "List of Croats" has all the problems of "List of Croatians". It's going to be confused a mixture of people who live in Croatia and people with some degree of Croatian ancestry but who have never set foot there. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 13:17, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Support per nom. As I said, while I still feel "List of Croats" would be ideal, in the real world it devolved into an unfixable mess. (It might have worked as a list of people who self-identified as Croats, because it would be easier to get rid of all those nonsense entries, but "self-identified" would inevitably lead into another set of problems, chiefly with sourcing.) The new scope may not necessarily provide an easy way out, but I suppose it's still better than the alternatives. IMO, confusion with regard to the new scope is much less likely, but still possible (what precisely does it mean to be "from Croatia"?). However, these things can be stipulated later. GregorB (talk) 13:57, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

unnecessary and redundant marks.

- Some people in the list are marked as "Jewish". I don't see how mentioning peoples religion would improve the list. I suggest removing the mark. - Most people in the category "Architecture" are marked as "architect". This seems preety redundant to me.

62.146.75.212 (talk) 07:39, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

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