Revision as of 19:50, 26 March 2010 editHodja Nasreddin (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Pending changes reviewers31,217 edits →Statement by Biophys← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 21:15, 23 January 2025 edit undoRosguill (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators144,380 edits →Result concerning שלומית ליר: ReplyTag: Reply | ||
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<!--PLEASE PLACE NEW REQUESTS BELOW THIS NOTICE --> | |||
==שלומית ליר== | |||
== Biophys == | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning |
===Request concerning שלומית ליר=== | ||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Smallangryplanet}} 17:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User requesting enforcement : --] <sup>]</sup> 19:18, 15 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks| |
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|שלומית ליר}}<p>{{ds/log|שלומית ליר}}</p> | ||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
;Sanction or remedy that this user violated : | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
: ] | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
: ] | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation of ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
: ] | |||
ShlomitLir (שלומית ליר) created their account back in 2014. The breakdown of their edits is as follows: | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : Despite several prior sanctions and warnings, Biophys has in recent months massively conducted edit warring and POV-pushing. When he has a spare minute he now proxies for an indefinitely banned editor. In the most tenacious revert war, Biophys's only source, which he aggressively tries to enforce as the truth, is a known propaganda website of Islamist anti-Russian extremists, in spite of protests by several users. | |||
'''Background''' | |||
*2014 to 2016: no edits. | |||
{{userlinks|Biophys}} is a persistent POV-pusher and edit-warrior who has been blocked several times and whose disruptive behaviour has been discussed in several reports on admin noticeboards: | |||
*2017 to 2019: 1 edit per year. None related to PIA. | |||
*At ]: | |||
*2022: 7 edits. Mostly in their userspace. | |||
*At ]: | |||
*2023: 21 edits. Again, mostly in their userspace. Made two edits in the talk page of ] complaining about its content and calling it . | |||
*At ]: | |||
* 2024: Started editing after a 10 month break at the end of October. | |||
*At ]: | |||
**Made 51 edits in October and 81 edits in November (copyedits, adding links, minor edits). | |||
**In December, that number rose up to almost 400, including 116 in December 6 alone and 98 in December 7. Became ECR that day. | |||
**Immediately switched to editing in PIA, namely in the ] article where they with an unclear image with a dubious caption, and without providing a reason why. | |||
**They also edited the ] article, with a caption not supported by the source (replaced by yet with a contextless caption when the previous image was removed) and WP:UNDUE content . | |||
**they also in the second AfD for ] despite never having interacted with that article or its previous AfD. They have barely surpassed 500 edits, but the gaming is obvious, highlighted by the sudden switch to editing in PIA. | |||
More importantly, there's the issue of POV pushing. I came across authored by them on Ynet, once again complaining about what they perceive as an anti Israeli bias on Misplaced Pages. They have also authored a report for the World Jewish Congress covering the same topic. The report can be seen in full . I think that someone with this clear POV agenda shouldn't be near the topic. | |||
Many of these reports resulted in Biophys being sanctioned and warned, yet Biophys has chosen to ignore all these warnings and has continued his heavy disruption. In addition, Biophys has already been sanctioned with a 1RR per the ] sanctions. . However, the 1RR sanction was later lifted for the technical reason that "no prior warning was given." According to a June 2009 finding by now arbitrator ], Biophys is a regular edit warrior. He is also listed as one of the warned editors at ]. Biophys has also been discovered as a member of the ], and participated in the cabal's campaign of disruption.. Further evidence of disruption caused by Biophys can be found at ]. Several members of the EEML were found by ArbCom to have proxied for banned users, so Biophys knows that proxying is not allowed. Biophys has been proxying for the community banned ] in several articles (see evidence below). | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
'''Edit warring''' | |||
<!-- The following are examples. Write "Not applicable" or similar if this is not a discretionary sanctions enforcement request. Otherwise, fill out at least one line that applies and delete the rest. If you wish to request discretionary sanctions but none of these situations apply, issue an alert yourself instead of making this request, see the link above. --> | |||
'''Massive edit warring at ]''' | |||
*Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on and re-iterated on (see the system log linked to above). | |||
*Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on by {{admin|Femke}}. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
Biophys has already been blocked twice for edit warring on this article., | |||
Adding some additional comments on 2025-01-16: On top of POV issues, the user has a number of tweets that appear to be a , , , and . They've also been . If this - combined with the tweets, the forms, the op-ed and the report to the WJC, all under this user's name (that they also use to edit Misplaced Pages - this is ) isn't a clear cut case of canvassing, I don't know what is. ] (]) 20:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Adding some more comments on 2025-01-22: The user in question says that they have been on[REDACTED] for years – and so surely aware of what does and does not count as canvassing. As recently as last month they were , as well as I've already mentioned. I understand that we are always meant to ], but we are looking at a situation in which a user (1) has extensive experience with Misplaced Pages and (2) is encouraging people, subtly and not so subtly to do things that are against our policies. ] (]) 19:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Nevertheless, Biophys continues his persistent and massive edit warring. | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
Revert wars of Biophys in 2010: | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
*,,, (3 reverts in 24 hours),,, (again 3 reverts in 24 hours),,,,,,,,,,,,, | |||
===Discussion concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
'''Edit warring at ]''' | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by שלומית ליר==== | |||
Here Biophys is edit warring heavily to keep a known Islamist propaganda source (http://www.kavkazcenter.net) in the article. | |||
I believe contents of this filing to be in clear policy violation and have reached out to the arbitration committee for further clarification before commenting further.] (]) 14:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: I was given clarification from an admin regarding my concerns and will now be drafting a response. Thank you for your patience. ] (]) 21:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
First and foremost, I value accuracy and transparency and am fully prepared to address any verified errors or missteps. My contributions are made in good faith, with only the intention of supporting Misplaced Pages’s mission. I am a veteran editor on Hebrew wiki, yet am learning to appreciate the sometimes stark differences in rules in this section, so am doing my very best to keep up to speed and abide fully as I edit further here. | |||
As a longtime editor on another wiki who finally decided this year to match pace on English wiki, I strenuously reject any accusations of EC gaming when a passing glance on my global log will confirm I have not radically altered my editing pace nor article focus. In regards to NPOV concerns, I will defer to the numerous comments below affirming that there is no policy violation by having an opinion, onsite or off, and must register mild complaint that NPOV accusations are being leveled here without any policy violation having been affirmed on any of these individual contributions. | |||
While contributions observed superficially (and without clear context of edit conversation and interaction with other editors) may appear to be agenda oriented, if I were granted more word counts, I would happily highlight the context of most edits made to make clear I was pushing back against previous bias efforts (past and present) by editors (including a number on the precipice of sanction in PIA5). Perhaps it would have been wiser to report what I felt was POV editing behavior instead of pushing back, but I only believed my efforts were to restore and preserve article balance, not disrupt it. | |||
I am grateful for the admin guidance received so far and appreciate being better informed about certain grey areas. I meant no intention to remotely approach anything resembling canvassing and believed the commentary was allowable (most especially since it was on a proceeding I was neither participating in, nor linking out to). I understand now that this may be perceived as “call to action” which was not remotely the intent, most especially to an audience that is mostly academic and, to the best of my knowledge, does not edit Misplaced Pages. (I also humbly must point out that no report was made indicating any increase in activity to suggest editors had been canvassed). I have now been well appraised and will take great care and caution to ensure no further off-site commentary remotely approaches such this territory of concern. If there are any questions or doubts in the future, I will seek future guidance from admins before venturing into potentially questionable territory. ] (]) 01:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Thebiguglyalien==== | |||
This is a terrorist website similar to the illegal Al-Qaeda websites the United States keeps closing down around the world. Their fact-checking is not just zero but they enjoy publishing politically-motivated false rumours like against Gordon Brown and the "European Union's elite pedophile commissioners in Brussels" or the story about Israel trying to harvest organs in Haiti. They continue the episode with their own lies and report about "the fact that "Israel" has brought some 25,000 Ukrainian children into the occupied entity over the past two years in order to harvest their organs." | |||
This is the first ARBPIA report since the proposed decision ] and it's specifically a matter of POV pushing, responding admins should be aware of the "]" remedy. The committee is discussing whether to implement a remedy stating that admins at AE are "empowered and encouraged to consider a topic ban" purely for biased editing. So far, the argument against is that it's redundant because AE admins are already supposed to do this. ] (]) 05:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-03-29/Special_report | |||
====Statement by Selfstudier==== | |||
Russians are always insulted as "invaders", "minions", "infidels" , "apostates", "the enemy", "hirelings", "puppets", especially in reports about bombings and other violence against them. Russian victims are purposefully dehumanized. The web site's original affiliation was with Shamil Basayev, | |||
To the extent that it is relevant, the WJC report was discussed at ]. ] (]) 11:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
who Washington too declared a terrorist and a threat to the United states. | |||
====Statement by starship.paint (2)==== | |||
All this is known by Biophys, who has backed the Kavkaz writer ] since the early days of his account, yet he keeps edit warring to keep this terrorist source in the article to push his POV. After users complained about it, he just accused them all falsely of sockpuppetry. | |||
I would to like to raise at ], where there had been an existing unsourced paragraph ({{tq|On the morning of October 7, a tour minibus...}}) that שלומית ליר added to ( / ) from the ]. '''The reference is relevant, but I believe it may not verify every detail in the Battle of Sderot paragraph''' (e.g. "Netivot", "Holocaust survivors"). The reference contains a short paragraph of text and a video that is 4:21 long. I can't watch the video in the reference, but I believe it is this same video that is 4:20 long which contains the same screenshot as the reference, on the same topic. Most of the video is an interview of the daughter of a dead victim who was on the bus (the daughter had been on the phone with the victim), except for 1:58 to 2:13 which appears to be a quote from the bus driver. The publisher themselves do not have too much reporting in their own voice (on the video), yet this reference was used to cite a paragraph entirely stated in Wikivoice. No attribution was made to the relative or the bus driver, or to the publisher. I can't be totally sure though, due to unfamiliarity with Hebrew. '''] (] / ])''' 13:53, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*,,,,,,,,,,,, (3 reverts in 26 hours), | |||
====Statement by xDanielx==== | |||
''']''' | |||
{{yo|Arcticocean}} I don't really see how NPOV can be read as requiring edits which support both sides of a controversy. Our content policies don't impose any positive duties; they only tell us what not to do. The text of the policy doesn't support the notion that a ''pattern'' of edits could be in violation, even if no particular edit is in violation. | |||
In principle, such a pattern of edits could violate the , but I don't believe this board has ever enforced it. If it were to be enforced, I think it should be for more serious violations like the double standards that e.g. ] attempted to demonstrate, rather than mere opinion-driven editing which applies to the vast majority of CTOP editors. — ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>\<sup>]</sup> 03:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*,,,,,, | |||
==== Statement by Hemiauchenia ==== | |||
Again, this is not the first time Biophys has edit warred on this article (see ). | |||
This user has engaged in off-wiki canvassing regarding the IP conflict. Take the following recent tweet from the 12 January | |||
For posterity in case it is deleted it contains the following remarks: {{quote|If you can't handle the facts, just delete them Propaganda on | |||
@Misplaced Pages includes targeting Israel, demonizing it, and erasing inconvenient truths, from falsifying war outcomes to deleting Israeli inventions and attempting to erase the reality of Palestinian suicide bombers.}} | |||
Along with this is a screenshot of the current AfD ]. People are of course allowed to be caustic about Misplaced Pages off-wiki, but calling out a specific AfD with highly charged rhetoric, essentially inciting canvassing seems out of line. ] (]) 02:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: For those concerned that this might be outing, שלומית ליר is very open about their real life identity on their userpage. See (). If you reveal your real identity on Misplaced Pages, your tweets about Misplaced Pages on your Twitter account connected to your real-life identity are fair game to mention. There's also reverse confirmation in this tweet . ] (]) 02:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Cdjp1==== | |||
''']''' | |||
As we seem to be ok to pull evidence from the statements of the editor in question, they have also commented more recently about () in response to a question of if Misplaced Pages can be "saved". -- ] (]) 23:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Sean.hoyland==== | |||
*,,,,,,,,,, | |||
It has been several days. Perhaps שלומית ליר could clarify whether their belief about the way Misplaced Pages works turned out to be a true belief or a false belief so that this report can progress. ] (]) 09:07, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I am interested in the cited above, specifically how this differs from the widely reported situation that resulted in the ']' case that employed Discord (and/or X, I forget) rather than a Google form. Is a consistent decision procedure being used to distinguish between encouraging participation and canvassing/meatpuppetry? I think a lot of people don't know where the line is, assuming there is a line, or at least some kind of fuzzy decision boundary. ] (]) 04:46, 23 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
''']''' | |||
====Statement by Vice regent==== | |||
*,,,, (the last 4 reverts are a 3RR violation), | |||
I'm satisfied by שלומית ליר's above explanation regarding canvassing. People with bad canvassing intentions don't reveal their identity. ''']''' <sub>(Please ] on reply)</sub> 04:19, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
''']''' | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*Users are allowed to have a POV - it's a rare user indeed who edits a contentious topic without having some strong opinions about it. For conduct to be actionable at AE it needs to be an actual policy violation. The misleading use of images doesn't rise to the level of AE action in my view, and judging whether an addition like is UNDUE is not within AE's purview, as long as it is supported by the source. ] (]) 23:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. ] (]) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. ] (]) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::The off-wiki canvassing is a problem. It merits a warning at least, I don't know if the formality thereof matters. If there was evidence that שלומית ליר was aware of ] I would consider something more stringent. ] (]) 17:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* While I understand {{u|Vanamonde93}}'s concerns, I think that we are required to assess the totality of the user's contributions. Contentious topic editors are required to uphold NPOV. ] places an obligation to {{xtn|Within contentious topics,… edit carefully and constructively… and… adhere to the ]}}. The linked page provides that {{xtn|Misplaced Pages is written from a neutral point of view… We strive for articles with an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight for their prominence}}. If an editor is ''only'' adding content that significantly favours one or the other side to the conflict, this is incompatible with their contentious topic obligation. That is because an editor making ''only'' one-sided edits will simply not be taking the necessary steps to ensure that the ''whole article'' is written from a neutral point of view. As their number of one-sided edits increases, the likelihood decreases that the editor is ensuring our content is neutral and impartial. Once we reach the point of being sure that they are not attempting to ensure neutrality of content, we can conclude the editor is not meeting their contentious topics obligations and we can issue a sanction. This can only be assessed with hindsight and by looking at the editor's contributions as a whole. ] 20:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:: Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed {{logid|166341641|at 17:33, 8 December 2024}}, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict: | |||
::* ]. | |||
::* ]. | |||
::* ] which was perhaps casting doubt on the relevant section, ''Massacre of pensioners'', and ]. | |||
::* ], therefore giving greater weight to the claims, in a context where the claims were already described at considerable length; ]; ]. | |||
::* ], then ], both to the first line of the article. | |||
::* ] and ]. | |||
::* On the talk pages, there has been a ] although I would be prepared to look past that (it was like meeting like). I am skipping a few further and insignificant talk page comments. | |||
::* There are then edits to ]: ]; ]. At ], there is then an expansion, again of the article lead, ] (]). | |||
:: Assessing the edits as a whole, it is difficult not to conclude that the respondent user is failing to meet their contentious topics obligation to edit neutrally in this topic area. As the number of edits is so far limited, if a sanction is imposed, it could justifiably be light-touch. ] 20:34, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::: {{re|xDanielx}} Thanks for commenting. Most of the edits do not have a neutral, encyclopedic POV. There is an effort to influence our articles away from neutrally describing the subject without taking sides, contrary to ]. Even if each edit in isolation is insufficient for sanctioning, taken ''as a whole'' the edits show an inability or unwillingness to edit neutrally. One non-neutral edit shouldn't be sanctioned; twenty is a different story. This is not about the ''percentage'' of biased edits but about the weight or amount of them. Therefore, the assessment wouldn't really change even had the editor made some 'neutral' edits along the way. I'm happy to concede that editors cannot be compelled to balance edits of one bias with edits of another, but I don't think that comes into it. In a nutshell, this is about ]. ] 08:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*The offwiki canvassing is a problem...{{u|שלומית ליר}}, you're fairly inexperienced here. Were you aware ] is not allowed? ] (]) 12:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:For transparency, שלומית ליר reached out to me, and I explained multiple policy and advised her to go ahead and respond here without waiting for individual feedback from her email to arbcom, which may or may not happen. ] (]) 22:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I take it that per {{u|Barkeep49}}'s brief oversighting of potentially-sensitive content in this report (]), and then restoration of the same (]), concerns of outing have been investigated and the report can proceed on its merits? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 19:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:That's correct. I got a request, I didn't really feel it was OUTING, but as I indicated in my edit summary OS is a tool of first resort. I consulted with the OS listserv and received some responses quickly agreeing with me and so I unsuppressed and restored the material. ] (]) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*It's not for AE to decide content disputes, and that's mostly what this looks like. We can handle things like flagrant misrepresentation of sources, but how ''best'' to represent them is a matter for consensus discussion, not us to decide here. The canvassing was a cause for concern, but it looks like it was rather unintended and had little if any actual effect, and they've agreed to stop that going forward. (Note that doesn't mean anyone must stop criticizing Misplaced Pages or what happens on it; do all of that you like. Just don't encourage people to take particular actions based on that.) I don't see any further action as necessary at this point. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 16:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:+1 ] (]) 18:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I'm not satisfied with שלומית ליר's please of good faith. I think that the call for "interference" on Twitter (not even a week ago!) is a real concern in light of the standards being established by PIA5. I'm also concerned about the timeline of their knowledge of relevant CTOP sanctions. They were warned about PIA in April 2023 (by me, apparently). They should have been familiar with canvassing rules from the moment they got that warning to be on their best behavior. Not only that, but perusing their edit history, I see that there are several edits that are PIA violations prior to reaching XC on December 8 (e.g. ], although there's clearly many others in their edit history). In sum, I see no reason to believe the narrative of good faith presented here by them in light of the available evidence and do believe that we should consider at the minimum a logged warning. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 20:15, 23 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I would be okay with a logged warning for canvassing, which remains the most concerning behavior to me. I find it difficult to see my way to penalizing violations of the XC restriction after the editor has already reached XC status without a clear finding of gaming XC status, and I don't see that here. ] (]) 20:41, 23 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I wouldn't call it gaming, I think it's a pattern of intentional defiance of community rules, which in turn makes the otherwise rather exemplary defense written here by them less than convincing. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 21:15, 23 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==Luganchanka== | |||
*,,,, | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
'''Proxying for banned editor HanzoHattori''' | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Hemiauchenia}} 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Luganchanka}}<p>{{ds/log|Luganchanka}}</p> | |||
{{userlinks|HanzoHattori}} is an indefinitely banned POV-warrior and sockpuppeteer. His main interest was terrorism and warfare in the Caucasus. | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
List of HanzoHattori sockpuppets, based on ]: | |||
*{{userlinks|RamboKadyrov}} | |||
*{{userlinks|Putinjugend}} | |||
*{{userlinks|Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog}} | |||
*{{userlinks|84.234.60.154}} | |||
*{{userlinks|94.246.154.130}} | |||
*{{userlinks|Ostateczny Krach Systemu Korporacji}} | |||
*{{userlinks|Mjr Edit}} | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
Biophys had tried to help the sockpuppet RamboKadyrov by a warning how to avoid getting CheckUsered. Biophys was also already suspected of proxying for HanzoHattori half a year ago. He answered with a ], stressing that he checked the sources. Biophys said that he finds the banned HanzoHattori "the best WP editor" and "a fantastic expert": On the mailing list he revealed previous mail contact with HanzoHattori (20090624-0311) and, moreover, tried to protect a sockpuppet of HanzoHattori and prevent it from being detected: | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
Biophys and his EEML friends then tried to organize a comeback for HanzoHattori: | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
In recent months, Biophys has visited several little known Caucasus-related articles previously edited by HanzoHattori and his socks, and performed massive edits on HanzoHattori's behalf. | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
# Reversion to version of article where the article says "He is a child sex offender" in the second sentence despite consensus at BLPN discussion that this is problematic because Ritter never actually interacted with a real child. | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
For example: | |||
BLP CTOP warning given | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
*] | |||
At BLPN, there has been consensus that the version of the article describing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the second sentence of the article is problematic, as he did not actually have sexual contact with a child, only a police officer impersonating one. ]. Luganchanka has been persistently edit warring against this apparent consensus. For which he has been warned by {{Ping|NatGertler}} , which he subequently blanked There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article going back to at least August ], but Luganchanka persistently cites a "consensus" for its inclusion that as far as I can tell does not seem to exist, with Luganchanka aggressively editing to enforce its inclusion. ] (]) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*This article was created in 2008 by HanzoHattori sock RamboKadyrov. | |||
: Luganchanka's response is disingenuous and misleading. Look at the ] discussion I linked above. Nobody other than Luganchanka thinks that Ritter should be described as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article. The dispute isn't about whether or not the convictions should be mentioned in the lead at all or not, it's specifically about the use of the phrase "child sex offender", and there is no consensus to include that as far as I can tell, despite Luganchanka's vociferous claims to the contrary. ] (]) 20:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*No other editor had made major edits on this article. | |||
:: RfC opened ]. ] (]) 16:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Biophys then arrives to do a massive edit: | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. --> | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
===Discussion concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
Between 7 March and 9 March, Biophys performed several edits on behalf on HanzoHattori. All these articles were previously edited by HanzoHattori and his socks. Biophys did not do any edits of his own during this period. | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Luganchanka==== | |||
* ] | |||
* Previously heavily edited by HanzoHattori, who has the 80 edits on this article. | |||
* Also edited by the socks Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (13 edits) and Ostateczny Krach Systemu Korporacji (3). | |||
* Other editors do not even come close to HanzoHattori and his socks (and now the proxy Biophys). | |||
The intro on the ] page had remained largely the same for several months, as you will see on the talkpage it is an intro approved, and reverted to, by multiple senior editors. There has been a recent flurry of activity / edits. While I ], it does look like those edits are attempting to downplay / whitewash Ritter's sexual offence conviction(s). I have not been 'aggressive' at all, rather I have simply referred contentious edits to the talkpage to build consensus, attempting to do my duty as a good Misplaced Pages editor.] (]) 20:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* ] | |||
* Chief editor is the HanzoHattori sock Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog | |||
Please see the ], where there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior[REDACTED] editors, that Ritter's sexual offence conviction should be included in the lead to the article. My edits have simply been aimed at ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article.] (]) 20:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* ] | |||
* Chief editor is HanzoHattori. Together with the socks ] and Ostateczny Krach Systemu Korporacji they have over 150 edits. No other editors come even close. | |||
* Biophys never edited this article before. | |||
: Thank you to @] and @] for your feedback. If you see the ], discussions - {{tq|14 August - Vandalism by removing all reference entirely to Ritter being a "Convicted Sex Offender"}} and {{tq|First sentence}}. The latter discussion ended on 26th September, and resulted in the intro we had until a flurry of edits the other day, trying to move information on Ritter's sexual offence conviction, downplay it, whitewash it etc. My edits were aimed at restoring the edit reached by consensus, which had been in place for several months until the recent raft of edits with the clear aim of moving / downplaying Ritter's sexual offence conviction.] (]) 06:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* ] | |||
* HanzoHattori has 4 edits on this article. | |||
* Biophys has never before been interested in Turkish history. | |||
* Biophys never edited this article before. | |||
:: Thank you for this ], I really do appreciate your feedback and advice here!!] (]) 16:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC) <small>(moved from ] — ] <sub>]</sub> 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC))</small> | |||
* ] | |||
* A little known article heavily edited by HanzoHattori socks RamboKadyrov and Captain obvious and his crime-fighting dog. | |||
* Biophys has never shown much interest in World War II history of Germany and Poland. | |||
* Biophys never edited this article before. | |||
:: As per ]'s comments: | |||
* ] | |||
* Previously edited by HanzoHattori. | |||
* Biophys has never shown much interest in German history. His edit is a massive change which requires knowledge of the subject. It is highly unlikely this edit was written by Biophys himself. | |||
* Biophys never edited this article before. | |||
{{tq|"Unfazed by "Emily's" age, Ritter asked "Emily," "you want to see it finish?" Ritter then turned on the webcam and ejaculated in front of the camera for "Emily." Detective Venneman then notified Ritter of his undercover status and the undercover operation and directed Ritter to call the police station."}} | |||
* ] ] | |||
* Created by HanzoHattori sock Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog in 2008. | |||
* No other editor has made major edits in this article. | |||
* Biophys has never before displayed any interest in Japan or Japanese people - one of Hanzo's main interests | |||
* Biophys never edited this article before. | |||
https://casetext.com/case/ritter-v-tuttle | |||
Please note, that Biophys edited all these articles '''sequentially'''. It is highly unlikely he would suddenly get interested in all these articles edited or created by HanzoHattori. It is unlikely that Biophys would suddenly (after performing sequential edits on several HanzoHattori articles), get interested in a little known Japanese person (whose article just happens to have been created by HanzoHattori.) | |||
] (]) 18:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
There is ''yet another'' sequential row of proxy edits by Biophys on the evening of 5 March. | |||
* ] | |||
* Heavily edited by HanzoHattori and his socks. | |||
* Biophys never edited this article before. | |||
====Statement by NatGertler==== | |||
* ] | |||
Editor's edits today focused on trying to main a negative descriptor of what subject believed, despite it not being in the three sources that were listed (nor in the old version they ultimately reverted to.) Efforts were first trying to simply restate the claim, then trying to source it to an opinion piece (problem) from the Washington Examiner (also a bit of a problem, per ]), then trying to state as a fact what had merely been stated in a non-prime article as an accusation. BLP concern was pointed out repeatedly via edit summary and on Talk page. Removal of unsourced contentious BLP claims and even false claims is not "whitewashing" despite how editor wishes to depict it, it is in accord with our practices. -- ] (]) 21:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* HanzoHattori & socks are the main editors of this article. | |||
* Biophys never edited this article before | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
* ] | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
* Familiar story: HanzoHattori and socks are the main editors. | |||
* HanzoHattori also created this article in 2007. | |||
===Result concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
* ] | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
* HanzoHattori is the most active editor. The socks have also edited. | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
* Biophys never edited this article before. | |||
*<!-- | |||
--> | |||
:@]: whether you're correct or not, you were edit warring. I believe an indef block from the article and/or a temporary site block would be an appropriate sanction here. ] (]/]) 20:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I've blocked the user for 48h for violating 3RR based on the report at ].--] (]) 23:56, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* @], edit-warring ''to remove'' negative content at a BLP is an exemption to 3RR. I see that NatGertler mentioned this in their edit summaries and at talk. As voorts points out, it doesn't matter whether you're right when you're reverting an edit that is being claimed as an exemption, even if you believe ]whiyou are "ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article". The solution is to go to talk, discuss, and get consensus. If you'd like to respond, ping me to your response at your talk and I'll post it here. ] (]) 16:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@], if you really believe those two sections -- senior editors, indeed, ] was between someone with 13 edits and somcoen who wasn't ECR, for heaven's sake -- somehow prove consensus was strong, and you think that means you can ignore all the later ones -- at one of which you didn't even respond to a ping, where people were objecting -- then this is maybe looking like a ] issue. | |||
*:But even if you ''had'' been somehow editing to support a consensus you believed was settled, you cannot edit-war contentious material into a BLP when others are objecting to it. The solution, always, is to go to talk, discuss, and reconfirm consensus. There is zero urgency to have this information in the article. Including something negative in a BLP is not something you should ''ever'' edit war over. ] (]) 18:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Luganchanka's reading of the state of consensus on the talk page as supporting their edits is so far off base that it borders on being a CIR issue if it's sincere. Indef block from ] seems appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 22:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to ] isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., ''that'' would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of {{tq|whitewash}} before writing this off as time-served. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — ] <sub>]</sub> 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make ]. The cited BBC source does not state {{tq| masturbated and ejaculated on camera}}, saying only {{tq|graphic sex act}}. As written, this is essentially another BLP violation, building a case that a ban from this topic is needed. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by ''New York Post'', a generally unreliable source. {{u|Luganchanka}}, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::::The detail is in the record of ''Ritter v. Tuttle'' (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — ] <sub>]</sub> 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::Seeing ] here and ], ] at ], I see no comprehension of the use of primary vs. secondary sources, nor any reflection of their past errors in engaging with this topic. I believe that a block from the page is needed to prevent further BLP violations as they have shown no understanding of the relevant policies even after being given several warnings, reminders and opportunities to revise their position. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 18:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::{{yo|Luganchanka}} | |||
*:::::::] calls upon users to {{tq|{{strong|{{em|not}}}} use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person}}. There are some narrow exceptions (when {{tq|primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it {{em|may}} be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source}}), but adding material to the article not found in reliable secondary sources is... suboptimal ''at best'' under our ]. | |||
*:::::::— ] <sub>]</sub> 02:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*{{yo|Luganchanka}} Would you please provide a direct link to the talk page section you are referring to when you say {{tq|there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior[REDACTED] editors}} regarding the lead? — ] <sub>]</sub> 01:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:{{yo|Luganchanka|Hemiauchenia}} | |||
*:It does seem that the discussion at ] does indicate some support for that language i.e. ({{tq|convicted child sex offender}}) in the lead, with some general lean against putting it in the first sentence. So, while {{tq|There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences}} is true if it means the literal first sentence, I do see a rough consensus to include the material in the lead section in some way in that discussion. | |||
*:That being said, the BLPN discussion had a bit of different tone and tenor from the discussion on the talk page. There was on the article's talk page, but Luganchanka, despite having been pretty vocal about this subject in the past, hadn't participated in that BLPN discussion. They instead grounded their edits in the argument that the article's talk page had consensus for the current content, and nothing on the article's talk page had changed that consensus. And that much was true. In any case, we've got <s>]</s>two different forums with two different answers here, which appears to be what's leading to the whole kerfluffle. | |||
*:Then the analysis comes to whether or not the label is a straightforward BLP violation, requiring us to read the sourcing in the article. , which is cited in the ''body'' of the article (but not the lead), does state that Ritter {{tq|was convicted unlawful contact with minors and other charges}} in the state of PA (the PA statute is ; "unlawful contact with minors" is the verbatim name of the crime). When dealing with a sting operation, PA treats it as {{tq|an offense of the same grade and degree}} as if the criminal had actually contacted a child (unless it's a lesser crime than a third-degree felony, in which case it becomes a third-degree felony). This is an extremely common practice in the United States (there are lots of philosophical questions regarding ''mens rea'' and ''actus reus'' here, but that's not really relevant here). In any case, labeling this to be a child sex offense (or, alternatively, to simply use the name of the crime in the article) does not appear to be straightforward malice/POV-pushing/libel, and a reasonably informed individual might shorten it in this way. Whether or not that is ''wise'' or ''optimal'' to shorten it is the proper subject for content discussion. | |||
*:Aside from the edit warring (which was not acceptable, and was aptly handled by a block), this looks like a content dispute. A heated one involving a living person, sure, but a content dispute nonetheless. I see good-faith—albeit passionate—disagreement. If the editors were to come together and engage in one forum (such as the article's talk page, where this has been discussed a bunch), rather than splitting the discussion over multiple pages, I feel like we might have our best shot at attaining a consensus going forward. | |||
*:In short, it looks like the conversation fragmented, and consensus-building broke down. Edit warring ensued, which was bad, but we've already blocked for that in order to dissuade it going forward. A ] on the article's talk page for what the lead should look like is probably the best way to go forward here. | |||
*:— ] <sub>]</sub> 15:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::RTH, are you objecting to a p-block from the article? ] (]) 13:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Ping to @] ] (]) 18:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Luganchanka has been blocked for a week by ] for BLP violations and personal attacks. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Just noting that this was a regular admin action and I wasn't aware this was before AE. ] (]) 18:42, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::With this in mind, I think we should wait to hear from RTH but otherwise expect to move forward to an indef p-block on top of SFR's stopgap action, as we haven't seen anything coming close to an adequate recognition of the relevant policies and practices from Luganchanka and after several second chances and nudges, I don't see reason to expect them to change course. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 18:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==BabbleOnto== | |||
* ] | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
* This article was created on 5 March by Biophys. | |||
* It is unlikely the text was written by Biophys himself. The English is almost perfect, while Biophys usually makes many mistakes. | |||
* The structure is similar to what HanzoHattori used: just a single chapter. (Compare to this HanzoHattori-created article: | |||
* Ref formatting is similar to what HanzoHattori used. Please compare this to or to any other HanzoHattori edits. | |||
===Request concerning BabbleOnto=== | |||
''Yet another'' row of proxy edits in the early hours of 7 March: | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|ජපස}} 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|BabbleOnto}}<p>{{ds/log|BabbleOnto}}</p> | |||
* ] | |||
* A HanzoHattori socks has 100 edits on this article; next most active editor has only 6. | |||
* Biophys never edited this article before. | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
* ] | |||
* HanzoHattori has 111 edits and a sock as 25 edits. Next most active editor has only 33 edits. | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
* ] | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
* Also edited by HanzoHattori in the past. | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
*] | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
* HanzoHattori and socks have done nearly all edits on this article. | |||
# Sealioning | |||
* Biophys never edited this article before. | |||
# Refusal to ] | |||
# Personalizing an argument. | |||
# Railroading the discussion. | |||
This is all after I warned them about ] sanctions, and . Very nearly a ] on the subject. I see no reason to continue tolerating this kind of obstinate ]. Additional diffs available on request from admins, but looking at the user history should suffice to indicate the problem is obvious, I hope. | |||
*] | |||
* A HanzoHattori sock has the most edits in this article. | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
Other evidence: | |||
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.--> | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
* ] | |||
<!-- The following are examples. Write "Not applicable" or similar if this is not a discretionary sanctions enforcement request. Otherwise, fill out at least one line that applies and delete the rest. If you wish to request discretionary sanctions but none of these situations apply, issue an alert yourself instead of making this request, see the link above. --> | |||
* Again heavily edited by HanzoHattori socks in the past. | |||
*Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on (see the system log linked to above). | |||
* Biophys never edited this article before. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
* ] | |||
<!-- Add any further comment here --> | |||
* Heavily edited by many different HanzoHattori socks. | |||
This is a ] with respect to the topic and their ] surrounding it has been subject to at least one ] thread that remains active: ]. The hope was that they would ] and move on from this, but it seems they either will not or cannot. ] (]) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
* There are also many other articles where Biophys obviously proxied for HanzoHattori, but the evidence presented above should be more than enough. | |||
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. --> | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
===Discussion concerning BabbleOnto=== | |||
;Enforcement action requested (], ] or ]) : The infamous ] case resulted in several highly disruptive users being topic banned from Eastern European articles by ArbCom. These topic bans have worked well and have helped to pacify the topic area. For some reason (perhaps due to his "retirement" tactic), Biophys managed to escape sanctions even though he was one of the chief disruptors of the EEML cabal. Massive edit warring and proxying for an infamous banned POV-warrior cannot be allowed to go on. Biophys has already received multiple sanctions and warnings, yet he has learned nothing, has only accelerated his disruptive behaviour after the closure of the EEML case. | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by BabbleOnto==== | |||
A 1RR restriction is '''not enough'''. Biophys has already promised to follow 1RR: ("I will also try to stick to 1RR").] replied: "in particular, I expect Biophys to adhere to his promise to "try to stick to 1RR"." In September 2009, Biophys still had a userbox "this user follows 1RR" on his now-deleted userpage. The above diffs of edit warring show how well Biophys kept his "promise." | |||
I would first like to begin by point out the person filing this complaint . They have frequently left "warnings" which read more like threats on and for people who disagree with them. Nor would I be the . | |||
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm being charged with doing. | |||
The necessity of topic banning Biophys from Eastern European articles in line with the other EEML sanctions should be self-evident. However, since Biophys has also proxied for HanzoHattori in other articles (such as ]), this topic ban is not enough. I request a one-year block followed by a EE topic ban for continued heavy disruption despite several sanctions and warnings. | |||
I think in general the user is alleging I've been uncivil, unhelpful, and, in their words, obstinate and tendentious. I know when someone disagrees with you it may feel like they're getting in your way and acting in bad-faith, but that's not always true. I've never tried to be disruptive or uncivil. I've , I've that were clarified to be wrong, I've , at times and work together. And when those editors , I didn't provoke any further. | |||
This is what admins had to say during the last AE report about Biophys: | |||
*"The involved editors have been warned extensively. Let's try to make a decision here, or else we should go to arbitration." -- Jehochman | |||
*"I generally support some sort of restriction on Biophys, as I have warned them previously, and they appear to be continuing with battleground behavior." -- Jehochman | |||
*"I am beginning to warm to Shell's suggestion that if we continue to see reports and discussions like this (including some recently at ANI, I think), topic bans all around may be the best way to prevent continued conflict." -- Sandstein | |||
*"...but I would not want to impose a full topic or specific article ban for issues that were more than a month old" -- Thatcher | |||
I now address the specific edits in the complaint: | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : Having been "involved" in the ] case, I have been actively watching participants in the EEML for evidence of continued disruption, and all of the above is very recent evidence which seems to demonstrate that the user in question still does not get "it". | |||
1. I don't see how this is sea-lioning. The user misquoted the article. I pointed out the misquotation, then addressed a accusation against me that I was second-guessing the sources (A claim which was never substantiated). I then said any source would have to support that actual claim which was in the article. I don't know what this violates. | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
2. I don't see how this is refusing to get the message (IDHT). The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it. I replied with what I actually said. What part of that interaction is saying "I didn't hear that?" | |||
===Discussion concerning Biophys=== | |||
3. Admittedly probably the strongest of the four allegations. I'm not pretending I was perfect in all of my comments. I should have kept my criticism strictly to their argument. I ask you to read it in context and keep in mind you're viewing a hand-picked assortment of my worst edits, and this is the worst they could find. Also consider that conversation accused me of , perhaps you can see I lose my cool sometimes too. | |||
====Statement by Biophys==== | |||
This is largely a harassment campaign by a group of like-minded Russian users, most of whom participated in EEML case. This is also an attempt to re-litigate the EEML case since Russavia and others frequently quote this case and provide links to comments made much earlier. Here is the proof: | |||
*This AE request was filed by ]. I did not comment about him almost for a year except asking ''to lift all his sanctions''. But he came back with vengeance, immediately after the end of his editing restrictions. The restrictions had nothing to do with me. He started some time ago from ] me (hence his first block by Moreschi) and he now continue the "battle". | |||
*Recent personal attack by ]: "''Who are serving?''" (I have to provide link to my talk page because LokiiT distorted a lot of things in his comment below). | |||
*Personal attacks by YMB29 ,, . He even tells to Altenmann: ''"I am trying to get the admins to finally do something about him... don't tell me that I should be cooperative with him and that we should work together"'' . | |||
*Recent threat by ] (''"may be we can meet you in Moscow..."'') . | |||
*] also came to personally attack me (see edit summary): | |||
*''Two more people'' came through ''proxy'' servers to talk page of ] to blame me of being a "terrorist supporter" and ] Future Perfect - see this supervised record . According to this SPI request , all of them are different persons. | |||
*Vandalism accusations by ] in response my quotes from a book by a notable philologist ] . | |||
*Wikistalking by ] and ] who reverted whatever I did (see diffs in this link ) | |||
*Saiga12 copycats a previous threat by ] .This is bad because they know who I am in real life, and there are bad posts about me off-wiki. | |||
*I received a mildly threatening email to my ''work'' rather than to[REDACTED] address during the EEML case signed by "Filatov". This is real life name declared by Ellol at his user page. I deleted this message as garbage. Eloll said it was his impostor and maybe it was . | |||
*There are now at least four accounts, {{User|Vlad_fedorov}}, {{User|Saiga12}}, {{User|YMB29}}, and {{User|Ellol}} who do little beyond wikistalking my edits, reverts and other disruption. Please examine their edit history. | |||
4. I'm not even really sure what "railroading the discussion" means. Thus, to keep this section short and to save words, I don't know what I'm being accused of doing wrong here. | |||
Nevertheless, I in fact collaborated and negotiated with ] in "Bombings" article (see below) and I can continue doing the same with any of the users involved (see the "Proposed conflict resolution" section below). | |||
All of this has stemmed out of arguments over two sources. I have tried to find compromise, I have tried to negotiate, I have tried to build consensus. I've been going through the proper channels, I've been participating in the RfC, I've been discussing it on the ANI, I source every claim I make, for a month now I've been trying to constructively explain my side and defend my argument against challenges. It's incredibly frustrating to now be facing an Arbitration Enforcement on grounds that '''I'm''' not working with others. ] (]) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
The reverts. Many diffs by Russavia are not reverts to older version, but changes to a compromise version, or simply significant changes during a single edit. Yes, there are many reverts, but they are usually done in the framework of one or at most two reverts per day (or less frequently). The exception was vandalism fight in one article. I had problems mostly with Ellol and YMB29 who followed my edits and aggressively reverted whatever I did (see diffs in this link ). | |||
*:Edited. ] (]) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Sorry, the sub-header for this section says that only admins can edit this section, I didn't realize I was allowed to reply here. | |||
The alleged proxy editing. I had an email exchange with another person who suggested to make specific changes in a number of articles. Since I was well familiar with the subjects, I agreed to look at the matter (I previously edited many articles in this area ). I looked at the suggested changes, agreed with some of them, rejected others, and modified whatever was necessary. But I did not act as "meatpuppet". ''"Meatpuppetry is the recruitment of editors as proxies to sway consensus"'' according to ]. But I made only such changes I would like to make myself. I did not even touch some articles because I disagreed with ''all'' changes he suggested. I also checked the sources. | |||
*:Yes, I will. I intend on taking an extended break from wikipedia, as well. ] (]) 17:06, 19 January 2025 (UTC) <small> Moved from uninvolved admin section; you can answer questions, make comments, discuss, but all your input needs to be in your own section. ] (]) 17:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
**::{{TQ|an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around.}} | |||
**:: What I meant was that I'm willing to respect the consensus and not make any further edits or argue any more contrary to what the consensus decided. It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to ''personally agree'' with the consensus, beyond just respecting it, then there's nothing I can do. I still do disagree with the consensus's result. Nonetheless, I'm not going to edit or argue further, I'll respect it as a legitimate. | |||
***::: Re:{{tq|no, you don't have to agree. You just have to accept and move on.}} | |||
Everyone is welcome to examine each my single edit (see evidence by Russavia above) to see that they improve the content. I honestly believe these my actions were fully consistent with ] and other policies, such as WP:RS and WP:NPOV. And I am ready to answer any specific questions about these my edits: | |||
***::: Then I accept the consensus. I'm not going to argue in those discussions any further, though I still personally disagree, I understand a consensus has been reached which is other than my opinion. Nor will I edit disruptively or against the consensus. I appreciate the admin who noted I largely kept my disagreement in the talk pages, not editing the articles themselves. I plan on staying away from the topic in general for quite a while. | |||
. None of the edits was in support of any terrorist organizations. For example, they complained about using Kavkaz Center as a source. Fine, I remove cat "News agency" but keep cat "Propaganda organizations" in the article: . And all other edits considered by Russavia as incriminating evidence are essentially like that and very much noncontroversial. | |||
****:::: Re:{{tq|BabbleOnto, do you understand what we're talking about when we describe your participation at talk pages as WP:sealioning, and why we think it's such a problem, particularly in contentious topics? Do you think you can avoid participating in that way at article talk pages?}} | |||
I just saw (I did not read it before). Well, I am "able to confirm that the changes are verifiable" and that I "have independent reasons for making them". The reason is obviously improvement of the content. | |||
****:::: Yes, and yes. | |||
====Statement by ProcrastinatingReader==== | |||
]. Here, I had extensive discussions with ], and it was me who started a number of topics that needed discussion (please take a look): , | |||
I've interacted with BabbleOnto in several threads. There's a few problems, but ultimately, I think they have a certain opinion on what the article should say, and will debate endlessly to get the article changed to their position. I mean, sure, reasonable people disagree on how to interpret sources and apply policy, but I don't think BabbleOnto is actually interested in faithful application of policies to write high quality articles based on good sources. | |||
,, | |||
, | |||
. | |||
I was also looking for the 3rd opinion from ], who is not "on my side": , , but unfortunately he was not there. Yes, I believe the mediation by someone like him is the way to go. If you look at my edits, I mostly tried to develop a compromise version. I hardly made even a couple of "blind reverts" in this article. | |||
That's not terribly problematic by itself, but most discussions with BabbleOnto are exhausting. Rather than actually trying to understand someone's argument in good faith, I think BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible, and making a superficially reasonable response ''ad nauseam''. They reply endlessly in this manner. As well as misrepresentation of opponents' arguments, on multiple occassions BabbleOnto has either misrepresented sources or hasn't read their own sources. I can't think of a single thread where BabbleOnto didn't have the last word, or a single thread where it seemed like BabbleOnto was actually trying to understand the arguments of other editors in a charitable way. As such, I think it's very difficult to work collaborately with BabbleOnto on the lab leak theory and related articles. ] (]) 21:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
]. That was mostly a struggle with a vandal who did such edits: ,,. Vandal or not, but I fully explained everything to him at article talk page: . Yes, "Russian invaders" are insulted at the Islamist web site, kavkaz.org, exactly as Russavia tells. However, they are ''not'' insulted in the[REDACTED] article. The article is written in full compliance with our NPOV policy, as one can see from the diff . Kavkaz.org was only used to source the statements by Chechen fighters, exactly as in hundreds published books . Saying that, I am very open to the idea of removing any references to kavkaz.org (and other sources that refer to kavkaz.org) if they contradict more reliable sources, as I did yesterday . | |||
====Statement by Newimpartial==== | |||
]. Everything was explained several times at talk page | |||
As the editor to whom BabbleOnto was responding in the diffs of the filing, I feel compelled to comment now that they have defended (to varying degrees) their first three diffs. I will reply as briefly as I know how to their defense of the diffs, . | |||
. I agree with last version by ]: , who modified my version as follows: . | |||
1. BabbleOnto is now doubling down on the claim that I {{tq|misquoted the article}}. I didn't "misquote" the article - I didn't quote the article, and I explained what my comment meant in the rest of the (now collapsed) thread that ends . Also, I provided a clear explanation of why I thought they were second-guessing sources later in the thread, but BabbleOnto never responded to that explanation. They are now responding to the accusation of ] with pure ]. | |||
] We had some heated debates, but finally came to consensus, including the new title (I did not even edit there for a long time). | |||
2. On this they say, now, that {{tq|The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it.}} This is repeating a misreading they made in the original thread, where they mistook a statement I made about another editor's comment as if it were about theirs. In this "defense", I see no attempt to read thoughtfully what other editors say in reply to them and revise their understanding accordingly; all I see is zero-sum mentality and ]. | |||
]. Here is the discussion. | |||
. ] does OR by claiming that something is "geographically impossible", although tons of publications claim that very much possible. | |||
3. BabbleOnto is now justifying an edit where they said to me, {{tq|You have a habit of inserting small lies into everything you say}} and {{tq|You're not adding anything constructive. You're just refusing to explain anything and saying conclusory statements, or lying about what you said}} - all this based on a misreading of what I had actually written - because I was going to refer to {{tq|a basic failure in reading comprehension}} '''''two hours later'''''. This seems like a time travel paradox. | |||
]. I discussed and tried to find some compromise here, but ] repeatedly removed a lot of text sourced to books , and the discussion went confrontational . I asked an advice from ]: , and he was really helpful, but we did not resolve our differences with YMB29. I finally stopped editing this article a couple of weeks ago. You may look at the contributions of {{User|YMB29}}. If you think he can do the job better than me, I have no problem leaving this article to him. | |||
4. They don't bother defending themselves on this one, but just to point out the actual issue with the diff, they doubled down on their accusations that I {{tq|said a material lie}}, and that I {{tq|lied when said that quoted the article out of context. Pointing out being caught lying}} and then proceeded to STRAWMAN the rest of my comment to which they were replying. If they had read my prior comment with a reasonable level of attention, they would have understood that there were no "lies", just a misunderstanding or two in each direction. But ] again; even in responding to this filing BabbleOnto is still insisting I did things that I quite obviously didn't do. | |||
*Altenmann. That was an extremely offensive comment. I do not have anti-Russian, anti-Chechen, anti-Polish or other "anti-national" attitudes. That is why I had good relations with Ukrainian, Polish ''and Russian'' (like Colchicum or Muscovite99) users. It's only natural if a modern-day German does not like ] and ]. And it is just as natural if a modern-day Russian (like me) does not like the Soviet system and the ]. | |||
It is exhausting to deal with this kind of quasi-CPUSH (not quite civil, but certainly push) behaviour. The Talk page in question has seen a recent influx of single-purpose or nearly single-purpose POV accounts, and in terms of editor energy, this one certainly seems not to be a net positive for Misplaced Pages as a project. Perhaps if they edited away from Covid and US politics, their track record might improve. ] (]) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*LokiiT: I do not have any current content disagreements with you. You made a big story from two my edits in one article by coming at my talk page and claiming me to be a "terrorist supporter" . You did the same previously with regard to another user . The entire conversation can be found at my talk page: . See also links given by FPS. I did not stalk you at all, but simply went through a large number of Chechnya-related pages (see the examples by Russavia), and certainly could not miss the article about their current separatist leader. | |||
====Statement by Objective3000==== | |||
*To Skäpperöd:No, I am not familiar with any policies that prohibit ''productive collaboration'' by email. The problem in EEML case was the alleged cooperation against other users and inappropriate canvassing. There was nothing of that kind here. No one asked me to vote or revert anyone. Besides, for how long can you haunt me with EEML case? You collected a number of diffs that show my frustration during this case (some of them are taken from old versions I deleted). I made no official promises to stop editing in EE area. Neither I was officially asked to stop editing. Yes, I had ''an intention'' to abandon my current account and edit only science. And I indeed marked my current account as "Retired" and opened an alternative account, ]. However, after making several edits , I realized that doing so is deception, no matter what my reasons might be. So, I marked this new account as my second account , fixed some of the old edits like this: and ''left a notice about this to Arbcom'' . ''Why I am not editing science from my current account?'' One of the reasons: I feel uncomfortable editing anything related to my work because of the ] and ] accusations by Russavia on-wiki and similar accusations off-wiki. | |||
Just a quick aside to Valereee's aside: {{TQ|Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn....}} ] currently has posts from 19 editors lacking the edits for extended confirmed. ] (]) 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:@], this is also a problem at other CTOPs, and is likely to become more problematic. I assume due to off-Wiki forums. ECR might just produce more users gaming EC. I thought it would be useful to put your aside into the CTOP template at the top of CTOP TPs. But that assumes folks read it. Walt Kelly said something along the lines of: “If only I could write, I’d write a letter to the mayor, if only he could read." This discussion is likely better off elsewhere. ] (]) 21:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Note: ] was just TBanned from the topic of COVID-19 and indef blocked until the accusations of off-wiki coordination made by them at ANI are retracted. Those accusations are like their suggestion made in their statement in this filing. ] (]) 12:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by JoelleJay==== | |||
*Re to Vlad fedorov. Most of your claims are very old. As about new issues, that is what I said:. Please do not blame me of something I never did without supporting diffs. No, I did not write much about Putin, but what I wrote was fully sourced and consistent with our policies. | |||
At the very least, can we get more admin involvement on the lab leak page so trolling like ] doesn't disrupt things even more? ] (]) 07:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by IntrepidContributor==== | |||
*Re to YMB29. At the talk page of ] I said that "I do not care if '''you''' are doing this yourself or someone asked you" . I did not mean myself. I have no idea who was user you are talking about. I did not ask him about anything. Please do not quote my words on a totally different subject. | |||
I have been observing BabbleOnto and while there are valid concerns about bludgeoning, I think the proposed sanctions are too much. His engagement in the Covid lab leak topic is driven by commitment to WP:NPOV, which our articles fail to adhere to, and he made the mistake of arguing with editors who were never going to listen (resulting in what looks like sealioning on his part). He's not only editor to raise issues in the topic and engage in good faith discussion, only to find themselves pulled to AN or AE disputes after staying out of the seasoning traps and refusing to capitulate to threats. In a parallel AN case concerning another editor in same topic, I suggest there may be possible off-wiki coordination , but it can also be on-wiki (). | |||
====Proposed conflict resolution==== | |||
*Offer to Russavia. Russavia, I voted to lift all your sanctions. But you ask sanctions for me. I think the problem is article ], the only one where we have serious disagreements. You just reverted it to , immediately after coming from your editing restriction. I suggest the following. 1. We start from last stable version. 2. We create a list of our disagreements if any. 3. We ask Alex, Ezhiki or any other administrator ''of your choosing'' (or any established member of Mediation Committee) to be our ''judge'' rather than mediator. 4. He/she looks at the list and decides each disagreement one way or another. I agree in advance with any his/her decisions. Would that be working for you? Would you agree to withdraw this AE request? ] (]) 13:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
One need only cross-reference names from , checking those that voted for labeling COVID-19 lab leak as conspiracy, with the names of complainants here. Contrast all these old timers with the steady stream of tens if not hundreds of regular editors complaining that our article fails NPOV, and see that their gentle approach doesn't work . Our chief complainant is already preparing his next case , and this might not be his first. | |||
*Offer to ]. Same as to Russavia. Would you agree?] (]) 13:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
I suggest that administrators consider a 1 to 2 month topic ban for BabbleOnto to provide opportunity for him to correct his approach, while staying alert to the tactics of POV editors trying to draw them into content debates to influence outcomes. | |||
*Offer to ]. The only thing you did was reverting my edits in ], ] and ]. I will never edit these articles again. You can ] them. But you do not follow my edits in other articles. Agree? ] (]) 13:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 14:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*<s>Offer to ]. We keep last most complete version but indicate strength and losses as follows: ... per Russian side and ... per Chechen side. And let's discuss any other specific issues.</s> Seems to be resolved, thanks to ]. ] (]) 13:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
=== Statement by TarnishedPath === | |||
*I do not have any other disputes with other editors.] (]) 13:07, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
Please see ] where BabbleOnto edited ] restoring previously reverted content and ] using a shit source after they'd been told by multiple other editors in discussions ] and ] that the source was shit. Notably in the edit summary they wrote "{{tq|Read discussion page. Manual revert. No serious challenge has been made to these changes. Methinks an admin needs to get involved...}}" despite them being in a ] situation. If a clue is not gotten by the editor fast I'd suggest TBANs from both COVID and AP2 is warranted in order to cease their disruption. '']''<sup>]</sup> 04:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Noting the editor's continued behaviour at ]. Refer to ]. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*None of the users involved responded positively to this offer so far, although I left them a notice five days ago. So, who does not want the collaboration? Russavia, do not you want some help even from the most friendly administrators like Alex or Ezhiki (if they agree of course)? ] (]) 13:42, 23 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::and again at ] '']''<sup>]</sup> 03:01, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by berchanhimez=== | |||
==== Comments by others about the request concerning Biophys ==== | |||
This user was given no less than 4 chances on the talk page to stop talking about bans/other editors and start talking about the content. They have continued crying about how they're scared of getting banned... yet they continue blabbing about other editors getting banned for their bad behavior ]. ''At a minimum'' a partial block from the talk page(s) in question is warranted, and it would be beneficial for a topic ban from the origins of COVID-19, broadly construed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 03:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==== Statement by Shibbolethink ==== | |||
I am heavily involved in this overall dispute as someone who has gone back and forth with BabbleOnto. I wanted to add that, in general, my feeling from interacting with this user is that they ''could'' be a good contributor to this site, and absolutely ''could'' follow the PAGs. They have shown an ability to be courteous . I think the issue is that in FRINGE and other contentious areas like COVID-19 origins, they have shown a tendancy to become "hot-headed" when tensions rise, and to reference an us vs them mentality (and numerous examples from others above). It seems they have also been egged-on, and made more combative from other PROFRINGE users (and probably some anti-FRINGE users as well who do admittedly ]) in that topic space (e.g. ) | |||
I amware of severe anti-Russian attitude of Biophys. I have no problem with this: everyone is entitled to their position. I see no problem it promoting this anti-Russia attitude into[REDACTED] articles as long as it is clear who is the bearer of this attitude (and this bearer is notable enough for their opinion to be reported) and it iss not presented as ''truth'' about Russia. | |||
We are told often to use narrowest possible restriction to protect the project. In this case, '''I think that would be a COVID-19 origins TBAN''', where most of the disruption has been. The user states they have learned what to do when consensus is against them. If they fail to show that lesson in AP2 articles more than just the 10 or so edits they've made in those articles, an AP2 TBAN would be appropriate at that time (]). Just my 2 cents.— ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 22:05, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
At the same time I disagree with usage of my name by Biophys as any kind of validation of his actions. For example, his phrase "I agree with version by User:Altenmann" does not mean that this version was somehow endorsed by me: it just randomly happened that I was the last one to edit this page. | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
I do remember finding a number of Boiphys's editing habits as problematic, but I have bad memory and don't really care about modern East-European political issues to waste my time on editing/personal conflicts. - Altenmann ] 23:34, 15 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning BabbleOnto=== | |||
===== user:Celasson : just thoughts ===== | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*<!-- | |||
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*{{u|BabbleOnto}}, please edit your statement down further to fit within the restriction. This also serves as an opportunity to rephrase your defense, which currently is not convincing at first glance. ProcrastinatingReader's description of the situation seems quite apt, particularly {{tq|BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible}}, which is currently a pretty fitting description of your response to them here, given that you zeroed in on the "superficially reasonable" part and ignored the much more serious parts of the testimony. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at ] exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes ]. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of ]. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::{{u|Valereee}} in line with their follow-up response, I take Objective3000's comments as potentially a basis for community discussion rather than a call for protective action on the lab leak talk page right now. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 21:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* I have to agree, this looks like sealioning. {{u|BabbleOnto}}, you're new here, and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt about your ability to learn to collaborate. WP works on collaboration and consensus, and sometimes consensus goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. You have to be willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you. And you absolutely must not insist everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers. I've seen editors at both the Thompson and the lab leak talks tell you they don't actually owe you an answer to your satisfaction. | |||
:Do you think you can learn to do that? Because if you don't think you can, this may not be the right hobby for you. | |||
We are not a debating society. We are Misplaced Pages which is based upon WP:FIVE; one of those being WP:NPOV. And the title is NOT NPOV. --Russavia Dialogue 01:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
:<small>As an aside, I'm going to recommend what I always recommend to new editors who end up here: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn. Go edit in noncontentious topics, where other editors are a lot less exhausted and have the energy to be more patient with new editors.</small> ] (]) 18:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{collapse top|title=Tangential}} | |||
::@], hm, yes, and ] also has 37 archives, and even with archiving at 21 days, 20 sections. Do you think an ECR is something that talk page needs? That's not part of the authorized restrictions an individual admin can place...hm, and I'm not sure of the policy w/re most efficiently getting that done and wasting the fewest people's time. @]? ] (]) 21:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I would object to ECPing the talk page. COVID-19 ], though this specific ''article'' is protected. The purpose of protecting the page (in this case) is to push newer users to the talk page, where they can discuss changes they want made (such as by edit requests) and contribute towards consensus-building while not edit warring. Protecting talk pages is truly, ''truly'' a last resort. Ordinary good faith people would be entirely shut out and silenced—we'd not even get edit requests—and I frankly don't see anything near the level of disruption/LTA abuse that would justify jumping straight to ]. — ] <sub>]</sub> 01:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::@], not ECP. ECR: non-EC are restricted from anything but making edit requests. ] (]) 14:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I see. In any case, ECR is the sort of remedy that should be reserved for more or less when all else fails—it’s still ''super'' restrictive. If new users/inexperienced users are trying to contribute towards consensus-building on the talk page (or even if they’re doing ordinary confused new editor things), and aren’t edit warring, I don’t think we’d actually be ] by enforcing ECR. | |||
:::::Suppose someone in good-faith sees “anyone can edit”, and they want to edit something topical. But then they see that the page that they want to edit is protected. They read the explanation that appears after clicking the “view source” tab. They then read that they can discuss this page with others, click on the first blue link, and then make a section using the “add topic” button in order to start a discussion. | |||
:::::“OK”, the newbie thinks, “maybe I will find someone else who agrees with me, or I’ll at least get some answer as to why the article is this way”. They leave their computer and come back in an hour. They then discover that their question has been removed by some random editor with edit summary “] violation, user not ]; malformed edit request” and find a contentious topics notice on their own user talk page, all because they don’t make a properly formatted edit request (i.e. “please change X to Y”). Or maybe they wont navigate the talk page history and they’ll angrily post that their earlier comment was deleted. Or maybe they just won’t come back. To top it off, nothing at any point in this process was obvious to them that such a requirement existed—there is no edit notice that says so, and so they couldn’t know. | |||
:::::] is ]y. It dissuades new voices from joining conversations, and it makes it somewhat hostile to true newbies. In particular, it dissuades people who, for example: | |||
:::::#Are Not hardcore/insane enough to deal with intense wiki-bureaucracy; | |||
:::::#Are unable to cope with handling unfamiliar wikitext markup when making edit requests for anything that is not a trivial word change, or who have abstract changes in mind more than concrete ones; | |||
:::::#Do not want to spend an hour of their time to figure out how to say the magic words to summon another editor to fix a typo. | |||
:::::The chief way that ECR works is by making LTAs/sockmasters have to put on a lot of effort or make a lot of edits. This raises the (time) cost of socking, and it has the benefit of possibly exposing tells along the way. But that also means that we’re imposing the same thing on good-faith newbies. | |||
:::::When deciding whether or not to impose ECR, we have to balance that it is extremely BITEy to good-faith newbies against its ability to prevent disruption. There are times where we are basically left to throw our hands up because of LTA/sockmaster abuse, and conclude that the tradeoff is worth it; the ArbCom has done this for certain contentious topics. But, the ArbCom had the wisdom to not enable ECR as a page sanction across all contentious topic areas—there is a very real tradeoff that needs to be really carefully considered. And I don’t the tradeoff leans towards embracing ECR ''here''. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">] <sub>]</sub></span> 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::I'm don't think we need to have this discussion here and now, but I don't disagree it's bitey and needs to be used only where necessary. I was just asking the question of someone who is working at that article: is this an article talk where it's necessary? ] (]) 17:45, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{collapse bottom}} | |||
*{{u|BabbleOnto}}, are you planning to answer my questions above? Do you think you're able/willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you? Are you able/willing to stop insisting everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers? ] (]) 13:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===== user:DonaldDuck : objection ===== | |||
*:BabbleOnto's response understanding this as a suggestion to take a break from Misplaced Pages as a whole isn't quite what I was hoping to see. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I object to use of my name and our limited recent interaction by Biophys as any kind of justification for his actions. After my indefinite block (which was result of coordinated efforts by EEML cabal to remove me from Misplaced Pages, and Biophys was member of the EEML group), I avoid articles on controversial topics such as terrorism/Chechnya, so we just edit in different topic areas with Biophys.] (]) 05:01, 16 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*:@], an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around. | |||
*:@], I'd support a tban, but is AP2 enough? It seems like COVID and fringe science need to be included? ] (]) 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::AP2 + COVID? I see the same behavior at the Brian Thompson article and Havana Syndrome, so COVID alone doesn't seem adequate. Oddly, the intersection of "medicine and politics" would appear to cover all affected topics but maybe that's too bespoke? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 17:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@], re:{{xt|It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to personally agree with the consensus, beyond just respecting it,}} no, you don't have to agree. You just have to accept and move on. ] (]) 23:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I think {{u|BabbleOnto}} is actually getting the right idea. You do not have to ''agree'' with consensus. There are some consensus positions here I don't agree with, and some I think are rather silly. But, until and unless they change, I respect and abide by them all the same. If I try to challenge them, and it becomes clear that such a challenge was unsuccessful, there comes a time to just shrug, realize you can't win 'em all, and ]. Since they seem to have gotten that point, I think maybe see how things go, and if they return to disruption, I think they're quite clear on what the results of that will be. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 14:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:In my experience sealioning is a habit editors have an extremely difficult time breaking. I was going to agree with Rosguill re: a tban from AP2 + COVID, maybe appealable after 3 months and 500 productive and unproblematic edits. This editor is basically ONLY editing in CTOPs, they're doing it disruptively -- we're talking about an editor with only 177 whom other editors are describing as exhausting to interact with! -- and the specific kind of disruption is both frustrating and tedious to prove ''and'' frustrating to try to get attention to because who you need so many diffs to prove it. That plus the apparent difficulty in breaking that habit, which btw they were continuing ''during this case''...I dunno. ] (]) 14:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I certainly understand your point. I am a little hesitant to sanction for "sealioning", as often it is difficult to tell where enthusiasm ends and disruptive tendentiousness begins, and I certainly do not want to have a project where people are afraid to advocate viewpoints contrary to a current consensus. That said, if everyone else feels sanctions are warranted, I won't object terribly strongly; I just generally prefer someone to get a chance to show if they've gotten the point (or in some cases, to conclusively demonstrate that they have not). ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Generally I'm with you. Let people show they've dealt with the issue. Reblocking is pretty easy in most cases. But sealioning...well, it's such a difficult issue to prove/assess, and there are so many people doing it who don't even have the self-awareness to fix the problem that I kind of feel like it needs a tougher approach than I'd normally argue for. Not a hill I'm going to die on, but if the editor is back here or at ANI for the same issue, I am going to be extremely unhappy with them. | |||
*:::@], do you understand what we're talking about when we describe your participation at talk pages as ], and why we think it's such a problem, particularly in contentious topics? Do you think you can avoid participating in that way at article talk pages? ] (]) 20:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==Marlarkey== | |||
===== Comment by Fut.Perf. ===== | |||
{{hat|Marlarkey p-blocked from ] and formally warned to be more mindful of policies, guidelines and best practices when editing CTOPs, particularly PIA <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 19:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
I'll just point out that Biophys and two of his opponents, {{user|LokiiT}} and {{user|Ellol}}, were recently on my talkpage bitterly complaining about each other, about issues related to the ones raised here. The threads are at ] and ]. I also observed him edit-warring persistently against {{user|HistoricWarrior007}} on ], in a situation where my impression was that both editors were behaving in a heavily tendentious way. For various reasons I couldn't muster the energy to judge the situation and take action at the time, and so I think it will be better if I abstain from such action now too; however, it appears to me that the time may be ripe for at least a revert limitation, possibly not just on him but also some of the editors on the other side. ] ] 07:35, 16 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
===== Comment by # Grey Fox-9589 ===== | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I'm pretty amazed Biophys is actually still editing since hes endured some of the worst stalking and herassment himself. If I recall correctly, he got outed and threatened even outside wikipedia. Users who are after him are always extremely nationalistically orientated users who would get a fine pay as lawyers of ]. With users who aren't as nationalistaclly orientated he never really had problems. Biophys doesn't edit "anti-russian" (a wrong term considering that he's Russian himself), in contrary he sometimes protects articles from those who are trying to turn[REDACTED] in the new ]. He was never alone in this, but because of the EEML case many of those are temporarely topic banned at the moment and probably aren't allowed to voice their support right now. Note that Biophys himself survived EEML even though some users posted large lists of supposed "evidence". EEML wasn't long ago. This file for arbitration is an obvious attempt to get him sanctioned at a time when he would get outvoted. | |||
:As for the edits by Hanzohattori. This users was actually a good editor, he created a lot of new articles, collected a lot of new sources and updated them regularely. Eventually he got banned for insulting an administrator and went on to become a sockpuppeteer. This of course doesn't mean that all the articles he created in the past are wrong. I became an editor too at the articles he created, after he got banned (but now I've become inactive too). Why would Biophys not be allowed to edit the articles? I've got to know both users a little and they both had the same interests. Biophys isn't even editing the articles so much, they're mostly small edits or votes. | |||
:As a conclusion I would like to ask whatever administrator judging this request to look through the history of the complainers. Most of them will have an extremely obvious pro-Putin bias and a lot of them have a lot of disruption as well (some of them almost having been permabanned). ] (]) 13:21, 16 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Marlarkey}}<p>{{ds/log|Marlarkey}}</p> | |||
Concerning the further comments that Russavia has made below. It's another attempt at trying to demonise Biophys as someone promoting extremism, a pretex under which many journalists are banned from working in Russia. The source was already discussed at wp:rs several times. I explained the use of such sources here and there's no bad intention whatsoever. Several users have gone after biophys labeling him a 'terrorist lover' or other ridiculous accusations which together with calling him 'anti-russian' means they view him as ]. Ironically articles like ] are brought up. It's indeed quite so that articles like ] are often the setting of edit wars because the pro-Putin editors mostly target such articles. It's sad really, journalists and human rights activists reporting on crimes by the current Russian government are assassinated in Russia every few months. Afterwards their[REDACTED] pages are targeted by groups of Putin lobbyists attempting to discredit these activists. Anyone who tries to prevent this gets labeled "anti-Russian". ] (]) 20:16, 16 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
=====Further comments by Russavia===== | |||
that his use of a terrorist website to source articles is not a problem and is always done from a NPOV stance. This is false, as can be attested by his persistent reinsertion of an external link (albeit from January 2009) to a terrorist website showing what the terrorist claim are the bodies of killed Russian soldiers, whom are described as "Russian invaders" right there on the page., . This is not NPOV; far from it. Biophys also claims that his other edits are always NPOV, however, this again is false. After I was topic banned last year, Biophys took the opportunity to - one which many editors had struggled to edit due to extreme ownership issues which Biophys seems to have with such articles. He mentions my recent edits to the article above, but what he fails to mention is what I have mentioned at ] - that is, Biophys continually reverts to his favoured version, whilst at the same time ignoring issues raised by other editors, and which '''always''' involves the removal of sourced information of the article by Biophys; ostensibly because it does not fit in with Biophys' own POV. Such things have been experienced in the past on other articles, such as ], where Biophys' edits allowed conspiracy theories to have "centre stage", whilst pushing information from aviation experts out of sight. The same thing was experience at ], where accusations by ] were allowed to appear in the article, but criticism of those claims were not ,, etc. As one can see, Biophys clearly has a history of edit warring over information which does not fit his own POV on the ways of the world, and it is being continued as per the reported articles above. --] <sup>]</sup> 17:21, 16 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
=====Comments/Evidence by YMB29===== | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
I was also going to post a similar complaint about Biophys. I reported him before at the edit warring noticeboard , but the request was declined as not being posted in the right place. | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
I can confirm that Biophys has continued edit warring and also tag teaming after the EEML case. He just pretended to retire and kept quite during the case and for some time after it. | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
'''''' | |||
Since the end of January Biophys has resumed edit warring in the ] article, trying to reinsert his edits from September without any discussion. Even attempts by admin ] to get a discussion going on the issues were eventually ignored by Biophys, as he failed to respond. | |||
# - Mainspace PIA edit prior to EC status. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request and acknowledgement of aforementioned edit. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. Accused another editor of vandalism. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. Says, "I don't give a stuff about what you or Israel say about the declaration." | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. Accused editor of "vandalism" in edit summary. | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. Accused editor of "vandalism" in edit summary. | |||
'''''' | |||
But more importantly he continues tag teaming like in the EEML days. He got a user who never edited the article before to revert for him. <br> | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. | |||
He basically admitted it when I asked him about it: | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. | |||
:-''Someone asked me? You mean like you asked User:Defender of torch to revert me in the human rights article?'' | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request..."''Someone has reverted my removal of Israel - Hamas *AGAIN* so I've taken it out *AGAIN*.''" | |||
:-''I said "I do not care". Yes, that's my personal opinion: we should encourage communication in this project, no matter how people do it (over the phone, by email or using body language). No one should be punished for "canvassing".'' | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. | |||
# - Self-revert of direct previous mainspace reversion that was prior to EC status. | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status...Made while this enforcement request was being typed up. This reversion by Marlarkey is of an edit with the direct edit summary of "Per ]". User is 100% disregarding CT requirements. | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : N/A. No previous blocks or topic bans. | |||
In the ] article he tried to insert his POVed jokes , even after all the users told him that they are inappropriate. | |||
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.--> | |||
Then he simply goes over to the ] article to insert those same jokes there, because he knew that not nearly as much people edit that article. He does not give evidence of the jokes' notability and continues to edit war. It is like he is on a mission to sneak in his POVed edits anyway he can and does not care what others have to say... | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): at 15:29, 21 November 2024. | |||
Obviously he was lucky to escape a ban in the EEML case, but his behavior shows that he learned nothing. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
-] (]) 01:55, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
User has been on Misplaced Pages (on and off) since at least January 2010. It seems there is a ]-related issue on ArbCom PIA/Contentious topics, given the very clear lack of ignorance of the ArbCom Notification and subsequent edit summary arguments. I do not necessarily believe a block will be of use in this case, due to this editor's on-and-off Misplaced Pages editing status (less than 500 edits since January 2010). Either a topic ban and/or a 1,000 EC status requirement (i.e. EC-status requirement is something higher than 500 edits) is being requested. '''The ]''' (] 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*One of the edits by Marlarkey listed above from 13 January 2025 has been by {{u|ScottishFinnishRadish}} for Marlarkey not being ECR logged. '''The ]''' (] 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:*{{ping|Marlarkey}} I want to ], so I wanted to let you know that ] is what we call "broadly constructed". If you read ], it says, "{{tq|These are the current arbitration remedies applicable to any pages and edits that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.}}" The edit you are attempting to me is ''related'' to the Arab-Israel conflict. The page itself does not have to be entirely about the war to be covered under the restrictions. Any edit that is at least, even slightly related to the conflict is covered under the restrictions. While the page is about declarations of war throughout history, the specific edit is related to whether the Israel-Hamas war was a declaration of war. That is obviously related to the conflict, given it specifically is in regard to the ]. That is why the edits were reverted and why this violation report was filed. Hopefully that makes sense. Also, just a quick side-note, accusing other editors of vandalism is ] and is not really how Misplaced Pages operates. You should always ]. '''The ]''' (] 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::*{{ping|Marlarkey}} We are all working together to create a better encyclopedia. No one is against you and we do wish for all to edit Misplaced Pages. The ArbCom restrictions require that you have (1) at least an account of 30 days old and (2) at least 500 edits, to be able to edit content anywhere on Misplaced Pages regarding the Israel-Hamas war. At the time of all the edits linked above, you did not have 500 edits on Misplaced Pages. You were roughly at 490. At the time of this, you now have over 500 edits, which means you could now edit content regarding the Israel-Hamas war. That said, this report was made because of the several edits you made prior to reaching the 500 edit requirement. | |||
:::Please understand this is for the edits that you made which were in clear violation of the policy, which requires you to have 500 edits prior to editing anything even remotely related to the conflict. This report was not that you are incorrect with your removal of the content. Not at all. This report is because you removed the content before you were allowed to (i.e. the 500-edit mark). Please understand we all are on the same-side here and no one is vandalizing anything. Once this is resolved, I would be more than happy to calmly discuss the content changes with you. I hope you can understand that this report is specifically because you made the changes before you were allowed to and not at all regarding the content in those changes. '''The ]''' (] 00:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''Response to "offers" by Biophys''' | |||
*{{ping|Rosguill}} After my last reply, I realized I went 105 words over the 500-word limit. I would like to request that 105-word extension (so I do not have to reword or remove the last reply I made). I do not plan to reply again as I think everything I needed to say and link to has been said and linked to. '''The ]''' (] 00:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
First of all, I don't need to "own" any articles... | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
As mentioned already, Biophys has made promises before but they were kept only temporarily, until things cooled down. | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
Also, edit warring is one thing but coordinating it offline and proxying for a banned user, even after the EEML case, is too much. -] (]) 02:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
'''Response to personal attack accusations''' | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Marlarkey==== | |||
Don't know how my comments that Biophys brought up are personal attacks. One of the comments was not even made to him. He also quotes out of context (note again that this is common for him when making accusations) to make it seem like I refused to cooperate with him, when in fact I explained: ''I have tried to resolve this through discussion countless times with him, but he is not interested. He sometimes only pretends to discuss a little but then fails to continue and just reverts.'' | |||
{{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} is repeatedly reverting edits which are removing information outside the scope of the page in question. My edits are validly citated within the scope of the page. {{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} has cited WP:ARBPIA but that is not relevant to THIS article which is not a Palestine-Israel article. This article is not a contentious topic - it is factual. | |||
Biophys tries to present the statements and evidence here as a mass attack against him (don't know if he still thinks FSB agents are involved) due to his political views, but one just has to look at his history on Misplaced Pages to see that the complaints against him are valid and many users are just tired of his behavior. -] (]) 22:46, 21 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
My edits are WP:NPOV. This article is about declarations of war - the opening statement states "A declaration of war is a formal act by which one state announces existing or impending war activity against another." | |||
=====Comments/Evidence by LokiiT===== | |||
1. Hamas is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hamas should not be included in the article | |||
Biophys seems to have gone back to all his old disruptive ways again following a short calm after the EEML case. Just in the past couple of weeks he's engaged in stalking, edit warring and sock fishing, all issues that I had brought up in my EEML evidence page, and that I hoped would have come to an end after that. | |||
2. Hezbollah is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hezbollah should not be included in the article | |||
3. Russia vs Ukraine are both nation states - the question then is whether there has been a declaration of war. | |||
In the case 1 & 2, the removal of these two entries is WP:NPOV and the inclusion or otherwise in this article is in no way a comment on the conflict in question - only whether they constitute a declaration of war by one nation state on another. Which they do not because they are nation states. | |||
It started (with me) in late February when he stalked me to the ] article. This was an article he had never edited in before, and his first edit was a revert of my edit (something he has a long history of doing). (I'm beginning to think he's somehow connected to the POV pushing IP who I had reverted there in the first place). He then continued to edit war in that article without discussing things in talk until after, and ignoring everything I was saying, which forced me to take it off my watched list out of frustration. (Also note in that last revert, he used a provocation "trick" I described in my EEML evidence where he does a giant revert-edit while saying something minor/irrelevant in the edit summary.) | |||
In the case of 3, the inclusion of Russia vs Ukraine only relies on whether there has been a declaration of war. The citation I gave is documented evidence of Russia announcing that a state of war exists between Russia and Ukraine. | |||
I made a somewhat hot-headed response to those provocations of his (given our history, I do believe they were provocations), and he proceeded to report me at an admin's talk page. In his report, he made a bold faced lie about my real life identity, claiming that I had actually said myself that I was "related to" (ie. a sock of) the inactive user , a name I had all but forgotten about since 2008 when he first accused me and ] of being this person's sock along with working for the Russian government (this government accusation was made on a subpage that he deleted, but was confirmed by ]). | |||
I suggest that by taking the action they have that the complainant is the one acting in a that asserts a political opinion about the conflict | |||
So then, after FPaS had understandably given up on our dispute, Biophys proceeded to report me for sockpuppeting. I made it clear on the page that I believed this was simply a personal attack/revenge tactic and that he was just fishing to see if I had any active socks, since the similarities between myself and the other accused parties are nonexistent; not even so much as back to back reverts or identical edits, and only two or three similar articles. The result of that investigation, involving five users and four IPs, was that they were unrelated. This gives more evidence that he was just fishing and wasting everyone's time on top of it. (Again, puppet fishing was yet another issue I had brought up in my EEML evidence page. The tally of wrongful accusations he's made against me has to be exceeding 10-15 if you include IPs.) | |||
Basically I feel that he's blatantly harassing me, and has been since I first created this account . If stalking me isn't enough, surely the continuous baseless accusations and lies/prying about my real life identity which have nothing to do with[REDACTED] content are. ] (]) 03:06, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
The reference by Weatherwriter to 21 November 2024 - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Is only a partial quote - what I actually said was "I don't give a stuff about what you or Israel say about the declaration. I care about whether it is in the scope of this page." | |||
====Comment by Skäpperöd==== | |||
The key is the final point - the scope of this article and whether the edits are validly cited in accordance with the topic of the article...namely a list of declarations of war. | |||
===== Re: Biophys' proxying for banned users ===== | |||
It is disturbing to see Biophys continuing the EEML habit of proxying for blocked users (compare the compelling evidence by Russavia above to ). Already in December, that this is not OK, and has included proxying for blocked users in the respective user-specific EEML-FoFs as evidence for disruption. ] (]) 18:06, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
Weatherwriter reversions of my edits serve to support a political opinion on a page which is about facts. | |||
===== Re: Don't ban me, I will withdraw from the area of conflict ===== | |||
'''I'm pretty angry about being accused in this way when MY edits were factually based and neutral point of view, whereas by reverting my edits it does precisely the opposite, allowing contentious and politically biased information to infect the page.''' GRRRRRRrrr | |||
Biophys should not even have edited the articles where the proxying took place. He promised to edit science only, and retired, to avoid sanctions in the EEML arbcom: | |||
] (]) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
The arbcom case had just started when Biophys announced "". When the case was in its final stage (2 months ago), Biophys again stated "," and the "last word" | |||
Biophys also 'retired' (obviously, not) to avoid sanctions during the EEML arbcom: "" This response was made by an editor on 15 October 2009 (!): "." | |||
On another point, following me reviewing the information in this complaint by WeatherWriter... | |||
=====Re: Biophys' response to the above===== | |||
"If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)" The complainant cites a link to information which I have JUST accessed and have never seen before just now. I was NOT aware of this information so it is false to suggest that this constitutes evidence that I was aware. | |||
Again this makes me angry at the accusations being made against me. If you don't want people editing and contributing to[REDACTED] then please just say so. GRRR | |||
Re : Biophys, your involvement with the EEML and the resulting arbcom is where we met. In contrast to the other EEMListees, you apologized for your wrongdoings and promised to not do that again. Believe it or not, that meant something to me. From your reactions, I had the impression that in contrast to other listmembers you seriously reconsidered where you want to go here. And now I see you proxying big time, and understand that all your promises and talk is just strategy to avoid sanctions. ] (]) 22:32, 18 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 00:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I give up... I'm being accused and being told off for responding to the accusation. I don't know anything about this procedure, have never seen this page before and know nothing about how this works because its new to me. | |||
*:But I get it - I'm not part of the club that decides things... so I'll let you get on with that. ] (]) 00:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::<small>(Moved from WeatherWriter's section</small> I get it - you'd rather call me out by this procedure than have an accurate encyclopaedia article. You've made accusations against me and put me through this over restrictions that I knew nothing about and policies I knew nothing about. I simply came across something inaccurate and followed what I understood to be WP principles and made an objectively accurate edit. | |||
::::So now the end result is that an inaccurate article containing a politically biased assertion is going to stay live. ] (]) 02:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*<!-- | |||
--> | |||
{{u|Marlarkey}}, you have gone a bit over your 500 word allotment for responses. Please do not comment further unless directly asked to. I will remove an additional reply that was both over your limit and in the wrong section. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 00:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::{{u|Weather Event Writer}}, extension granted as that's essentially what Marlarkey has already taken. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 01:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Comment by Vlad fedorov==== | |||
Ok, having now reviewed ]'s page history, its talk page discussion, and Marlarkey's contributions more generally, I find that: | |||
=====Insulting other editros as paid Pro-Putin editors or FSB agents. Incivilty.===== | |||
:* Marlarkey has repeatedly violated ] at ] since having received a CTOP notice | |||
:*Irrespective of whether it is correct or not to include the Israel-Hamas war, Israel-Hezbollah war, or wars between states and non-state entities more broadly, WeatherWriter's edits to the page are plainly not ], which has a specific (and serious) meaning on Misplaced Pages | |||
:*It appears to be a long-term status quo to include non-state entities provided that there is a citation to some sort of formal declaration of war, and the page's inclusion of conflicts involving non-states ] and ] do not appear to have been challenged at any point. | |||
:*Marlarkey is incorrect to assert that their edit is {{tq|objectively accurate}}. Whether the edit is accurate is subject to community consensus, and the talk page arguments in favor of inclusion base themselves on RS reporting which is a valid, policy-compliant argument. Marlarkey's arguments that a declaration of war can only occur be between two states do not make any reference to a reliable source stating this; while that text is currently in the lead of the article, it does not have a citation nor is it clear that any citation in the article directly backs this. | |||
:*In light of discussion at ], which at this point shows multiple editors in favor of keeping the Hamas and Hezbollah wars, only Marlarkey firmly for removing them, and one other editor calling for discussion as of December 31st, Marlarkey's edits to unilaterally remove the entries in January amount to slow-motion edit warring | |||
:*Given that Marlarkey has had an account for well over a decade, has edited a wide variety of topics, hit 500 edits while this was happening, does not appear to have otherwise shown interest in Israel/Palestine topics, and that the edits at Declaration of war don't fit into any clear POV-warrior pattern, I don't think that pulling extended-confirmed or issuing a PIA topic ban would help. | |||
I'm thus inclined to suggest an indefinite partial block from ] (but not its talk page) as a regular admin action for edit warring, and a logged warning to be mindful of CTOP standards. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC | |||
*As Marlarkey stated that they were unaware of CT, I wanted to confirm that I double checked and found that the CT notice was properly left in November. If Marlarkey chose not to read it, well, that's rather on him—we can only leave messages, we can't force people to read them. I would otherwise agree with Rosguill's assessment. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 12:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I entirely endorse Rosguill's reading of this. I am not happy about Marlarkey's approach to our restrictions, but I don't see this as EC gaming, and I can't see how pulling EC rights could be justified at this stage. As such I endorse the proposed page block and logged warning. Marlarkey, you seem to believe that because you are right on the substance you can ignore process and guidelines - that simply isn't true. The arbitration committee has consistently held that ]; you need to be able to edit within the scope of our policies. ] (]) 17:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* Pretty much everything Rosquill said. {{u|Marlarkey}}, it doesn't look like you have a huge amount of experience working in ]s. I'm sorry you're finding this upsetting, but CTOPs are a whole 'nother world, and you're either going to have to learn how to nonproblematically work there, or not work there. ] (]) 18:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:FWIW, the CTOP warning was ]. You've got your archiving set so aggressively that you may be missing a lot of messages, and it's completely plausible that you missed this one, which was only on your talk for two days, and after it was left you didn't edit for a month. However, we do assume that if you've got your archiving set that aggressively, you're keeping on top of anything important by checking your notifications to make sure you didn't miss anything. | |||
*:You can probably prevent this happening in future by having your talk page archive ''no more frequently than you typically go between editing sessions'', leaving maybe the five most recent messages unarchived, and/or being sure to check your notifications when logging back in. Any one of those three and you've have likely seen the notification. ] (]) 18:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{hatb}} | |||
==DanielVizago== | |||
I am actually quite disappointed with adminstrator's discriminative approach to Biophys and Co behaviour. In ] it was forbidden to name EEML members "Anti-Russian" or "cabal members". At the same time guys like Biophys, Grey Fox, etc. here at these pages and anywhere in WP are allowed to insult anyone as "paid Pro-Putin editors", "paid FSB editors". | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
I very surprised that criticizing ] POV article on absence of the text related to humanitarian corridors equals to being paid Pro-Putin editor, or to being an agent of FSB. See more . And how this at all relates to being Pro-Putin editor. | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Schazjmd}} 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|DanielVizago}}<p>{{ds/log|DanielVizago}}</p> | |||
I am also surprised that any attempt to fix Biophys extreme POV, as acknowledged already by many editors since Stomakhin arbcase, leads to you being called FSB internet paid editor of fascist "Nashi" group. | |||
I expect that administrators at least here would take measures to enforce arbitration FoF of Piotrus 2 case ], especially finding on "Involvement by security organs" | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
6.1) There is no convincing evidence that any of the security organs of the Russian state are involved in Misplaced Pages editing, directly or indirectly; nor that any editors involved in this matter are acting as agents of or receiving instruction from said organs. | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
Passed 9 to 0 at 23:59, 22 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
# Added ] to a BLP, after CTOP notification and several talk page messages notifying DanielVizago that the category is not to be applied to articles about individuals (per category description, {{tq|This category is for issues relating to misandry. It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly misandrist.}}); | |||
6.2) Several editors have claimed that they are agents of certain Russian security organs. Such claims are disruptive and potentially intimidating to other editors, even when made in jest. | |||
# and Removing sourced content from ] that states misandry is not a major an issue as misogyny; | |||
# Changing content in ] to emphasize misandry (reverted by another editor with edit summary {{tq|rv, poorly sourced (sources supplemented by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH), earlier version was better, closer to sources}}); | |||
# Added "bimisandry" to ], citing 4 sources, none of which include that term; | |||
# 14 Jan 2025, weird edits adding ] with piped names to unrelated articles, then those names directly to the category page; | |||
# restored the "bimisandry" edit to ], then a 5th ref that includes the term but is just a blog; I left a 4th-level warning on talk page; | |||
# (after final warning) adds <nowiki>] and ]</nowiki> to ]; those two individuals don't have articles and there is no mention in this article of their charges or convictions, even though the category solely consists of {{tq|articles of female individuals who have been convicted of rape in a court of law.}} | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
Passed 9 to 0 at 23:59, 22 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
*None | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
I am surprised that some WP users are allowed to call the names and to insult other users without any consequences. I believe that doesn't promote any collaborative work of the editors and doesn't contribute to already heated atmosphere of Eastern European articles. | |||
*I alerted them on | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
Sorry for "I-centric" passage. | |||
Above diffs are all edits ''after'' the CTOP notification was provided. Before then, DanielVizago misapplied ] to 46 articles, which is what caught my attention. Their attempts to add "bimisandry" to ] started . On 28 Dec 2024, DanielVizago added a lot of content to ] about misandry, which another editor with edit summary {{tq|remove recently added pro-fringe section and put back the excerpt}}. Most of their 122 edits have been reverted by multiple editors. | |||
Before the level 4 warning, I guiding DanielVizago away from CTOP; they don't engage on their talk page. (They've posted there once, to say "thanks" in response to a warning.) With their refusal to communicate, poor sourcing, and non-NPOV edits, I don't think they should be editing in this topic area. ] ] 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=====Using arbitration as a tool to kick opponents off WP===== | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
Just look into arbitration case which was initiated by Biophys after his unsuccessful edit warring in ] - | |||
* | |||
]. He got a warning and 3RR block on this article. In sum Biophys has followed Commodore Sloat edits, discovered some unrelated to his matter uncivil comments, summed with his personal accusations and tried to kick Commodore Sloat from WP to OWN Operation Sarindar article. | |||
Now look into arbitration case ], the same picture. He collected all my uncivil comments that I've erroneously made before and made a case against me just to kick me off WP as an editor whose contibutions he was so fiercely opposing. Finally this case from content dispute turned into vlad fedorov civilty case. As a result extremist Boris Stomakhin who was an editor of terrorist web-site KavkazCenter was named as dissident in WP. | |||
Biophys also provokes other users by using various WP procedures. For example, he initiated sockpuppet investigation on users Saiga12 which lead to negative answer and Lokiit just to win content dispute over Chechen articles. And when he gets a response reaction from these authors he insults them by naming paid Pro-Putin editors and claims that it is harrassment campaign against him. | |||
===Discussion concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
He has also initiated in EEML case campaign against user Ellol whom he accused of issuing coded death threats for him. Now in his response claims that he cooperates with user Ellol. What a drastic change! Perhaps we would ask Ellol himself if he finds Biophys to be cooperative? | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
==== |
====Statement by DanielVizago==== | ||
====Statement by caeciliusinhorto==== | |||
Biophys right from his start in Misplaced Pages unambiguously by his actions was demonstrating why he is here. | |||
Since this report was opened, DanielVizago has continued to make questionable edits adding articles to ]. | |||
* , categorising a living person who has been accused (but not charged, let alone convicted) of sexual assault as a rapist (cf. ]) | |||
his WP program: | |||
* adds the category to a disambiguation page on the basis of one of the people listed on that page, who had in fact been convicted not of rape but of | |||
* and edit categorise two sexually-motivated murderers as rapists despite no evidence that they ever raped anyone in the article (cf. ]) | |||
] (]) 10:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
"Western security and intelligence services should '''start harassing FSB and SVR personnel wherever possible'''. It '''should be routine to boot these officers from foreign postings'''. '''We should disrupt their lives and the lives of their families''' whenever and wherever possible. American and European internal-security and foreign-intelligence services should track the finances of former and active-duty FSB and SVR officers. I'''f it is possible to cause them pain--for example, by regularly blocking the accounts of officers even tangentially connected to anti-dissident or criminal activity in Europe or Russia--we should do so'''." | |||
====Statement by Simonm223==== | |||
At the end of this, Biophys uncunnily asks "Is that a good idea?". Do I need to point finger at the people who Biophys considers as FSB personnel in WP? | |||
Might be wise, as long as doing so wouldn't interfere with evidence, to get a revision deletion on some of the diffs presented above that make unfounded statements about BLPs. ] (]) 18:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I leave the question of whether Australian guy like Russavia, US guy Commodore Sloat, or Belarusian lawyer like me are paid Pro-Putin agents. In fact this was repeated so many times, that actually all of us are tired of this and even accustomed to these incivilties. | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
But any objective observer who would analyze Biophys activities (contribs) in WP, will see: | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
* Extreme POV pushing based on opinionated sources. Just one recent example "Putin began the general bombing" from ] | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
* Sterilization of the articles from any POV contradicting that of Biophys | |||
* Creation of offensive articles (FSB internet troll squad) | |||
* Chronic violation of ] This surfaced several times in various arbcases but was never dealt with by the arbitrators. | |||
* Attempts to kick rival editors through arbitration cases and wikilawyering | |||
* Chronic violation of ] | |||
* Harassment of other editors | |||
* Treating Misplaced Pages as battleground where forces of light (EEML cabal and their folks) fight the forces of evil (paid Pro-Putin editors) | |||
* Disinformation of other WP users just like by telling them that he (Biophys) cannot speak freely in Misplaced Pages. Ok guys, that Biophys who has created attack article ], who is calling other editors "paid Pro-Putin editors", says he is not free to speak here? Am I missing something there? | |||
*I've p-blocked from article space to see if we can get this editor communicating. ] (]) 12:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
His previous activities: | |||
*I want to hear what they have to say, but I'm going to need a fairly convincing explanation as to how they're here to build an encyclopedia and not to POV-push men's rights activism content where it doesn't belong. The IDHT and spammy behavior and the BLP vios on top of that aren't super encouraging, either, but if they decide to communicate, I'm happy to reassess. ] (] • she/her) 22:56, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I'd like to hear what they have to say, too, but I'm also not averse to letting this archive with no further action since the p-block is an indef. I've left another message at their talk. ] (]) 13:41, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*<!-- | |||
--> | |||
] | |||
could be seen only by the administrators. Here Biophys threats with creation of the new artciles which are supposed to be Anti-Russian. | |||
==Ekdalian== | |||
by Biophys. | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Ekdalian=== | |||
Start with his personal page which was emptied during EEML arbitration. If you would look at his misc links dating back to 2007 you will see that he has contained there as one of the main links a link to '''methods of propaganda and disinformation''', which contained very detailed description of how to disinform and how to advance propaganda. | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|NXcrypto}} 03:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Ekdalian}}<p>{{ds/log|Ekdalian}}</p> | |||
Now just let us remember articles created by Biophys: ], ] now in light of that please appreciate his "work": | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
* - Biophys deletes sourced content by historian ]. | |||
* - Biophys deletes sourced content by Mayer without providing any reason again, asking to "discuss" on talk page. He does not justify this on Talk page himself. | |||
* Biophys twice reinserts inaccurate information which is dismissed at talk as not connected to the content of the article{{ndash}}without even bothering to look at the ]. When ] reverts asking him to see talk, Biophys tries to at ]. Administrator ] Biophys to stop antics like that, as he did not even bother to consult the talk page. | |||
* - Biophys removes sourced material about the politics of controversial Russian opposition leader ], claiming "undue weight for biography of a world chess champion." | |||
* - Biophys is warned by ] to stop inserting nonsense into the ] article while ignoring the changes that take place on the ] page. | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
=====Forecast===== | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
If you won't educate Biophys, perhaps like me in Boris Stomakhin arbcase, these repeated Biophys-centric dramas on Incident admin board, Arb case, and Arb enforcement pages would never stop. Biophys is not showing even an inch of remorse, he still believes that FSB agents are hiding under his bed when he is editing on WP and they try to cut off his electricity supply to prevent him from editing WP. | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
# - Restoring recently added disputed content, contrary to ] | |||
# - Casting unsubstantiated aspersions and poisoning the well against another editor. | |||
# - Poisoning the well against another user without any evidence of misconduct. | |||
# - Restoring recently added disputed content again and essentially asking to get consensus for it, contrary to ]. | |||
# - Performs a blanket revert in order to make a ], just because their previous edit was reverted, despite it being the version that was arrived upon by a month long discussion on , also saying "LE also wants to discuss and revisit the content proposed by the sock" , LukeEmily later elaborated that they are okay with the version that Ekdalian was actually reverting | |||
# - Same as above but edit warring | |||
# - Edit warring and casting aspersions saying that reverting editor is acting like the blocked sock {{noping|Nobita456}} "stop behaving like Nobita please" | |||
# - Attacks and tries to poison the well against another editor also says that "WP:ONUS doesn't mean you need to achieve consensus with editors condemned by admins for persistent POV pushing! " | |||
# - Restores the aforementioned attack saying "Related to the content only, related to WP:CONSENSUS to be precise; accept the truth, I don't want to report minor incidents" when told to focus on content | |||
# - calling a ] edit as vandalism and issues final warning for vandalism | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.--> | |||
# Explanation | |||
# Explanation | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
=====Re:Biophys claims===== | |||
*Has a <nowiki>{{Ds/aware|ipa}}</nowiki> template for the area of conflict on their own talk page. and notified of WP:ARBIPA by Dennis Brown in 2022 | |||
Biophys claims: | |||
"I looked at the suggested changes, agreed with some of them, rejected others, and modified whatever was necessary. But I did not act as "meatpuppet". Being "proxy" or "meatpuppet" means doing something ''exactly'' as someone else asked you. I did not do that. I made only such changes (with my corrections) I would like to make myself. In a number cases I did not even touch an article because I disagreed with ''all'' changes he suggested. I also checked the sources" | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
You know we had this situation already, but this could be only established by looking into emails or ICQ logs, which could be easily forged by the people who have it. | |||
I also note that Ekdalian has a history of aggressive edit warring in the contentious topic as a part of slow running edit war.On , many of their most recent edits have been reverts to prevent content addition as well. It has gotten to the point where experienced users like {{noping|Sitush}} have called them out for it because they usually misrepresent the consensus or comments by editors such as Sitush to claim that consensus already exists when there is none, they do not provide diffs when asked to substantiate their claims either. They have been reprimanded in past over similar conduct about misrepresentation and exaggeration by {{ping|Dennis Brown}} on this venue as well. They have a history of attacking other users and trying to poison the well against them instead of ] as diffs above prove. | |||
I am not seeking any topic bans but Ekdalian should be at least told not to misuse the talk page for adding more fuel into heated disputes, and use the revert button only when it is necessary. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 03:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I even could imagine such "disagreement" between folks: | |||
I'm unimpressed by your defence of #10, it was an unsourced change, sure disruptive but not vandalism (which has a very specific meaning). Please refer to ]. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 07:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Hanzo: Please write: "Putin eats children". | |||
Biophys: Hanzo, I disagree with you, Putin not only eats, but also fries children. | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
Anyway, if this could happen, then what sense bans have here in WP? The reason behind this meatpuppetry is that edits are initiated not by current user, but by banned user. Little "diagreements" between these two are not that important. What is important is the result - in the end article is effectively contributed by banned user, and it's not even important to which extent (smaller or bigger). ] (]) 08:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. --> | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
====Statement by user Ellol==== | |||
A month ago Biophys came to my talk page and claimed that he had received a email signed by my name with "concerns about his health". Allegedly it was sent during the EEML case (last September — December), he "thought it might be me", but only now that "I indicated my name", he could link it to me. In reality my name has been on my user page non-stop for the past four years with these or those extra bio details. After I asked for more information about that alleged mail repeatedly, Biophys answered "Nothing more to tell at the moment. Thank you." and "Let's drop it" and then diverted from the topic. | |||
===Discussion concerning Ekdalian=== | |||
At my talk page he stated, entirely on his free will, that "So, that was your impostor who knew your name", while now he speaks differently: "Eloll said it was his impostor, and maybe it was indeed his impostor. I do not know." | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Ekdalian==== | |||
Regarding the alleged e-mail, in his recent post he claims to have "immediately deleted it as garbage", what is contradictory with his alleged state of concern with such a mail that now turns to be "a mildly threatening" per his comment. | |||
I have nothing to say as such! I have been serving Misplaced Pages since 2013, particularly related to contentious caste articles, fighting against caste promotion, POV pushing and vandalism. Heated debates are common in the contentious topics. I have neither violated 3RR, nor abused any editor! Yes, in case someone has been topic banned and condemned by admins, I do mention the same so that NPOV is not violated. Many admins are aware of my activities including SPI, anti-disruption and anti-vandalism. Thanks & Regards. ] (]) 06:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I think that it must be clear that a story like that can't be treated as an accusation against any Misplaced Pages user, me in this case. Moreover, internal contradictions inside Biophys'es story indicate that it could be intentionally thought-up as an attempt to disseminate fear-mongering aka "Russians go" what is a very, very bad taste. | |||
:Action (warning) may be taken against NXcrypto for being unable to identify vandalism (refer to point number 10), and wasting the time of our admins! Thanks. ] (]) 06:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Nxcrypto, it is a clear case of vandalism. The user intends to misrepresent and project their caste as ] (higher status among Bengali Kayasthas) by intentionally changing Eastern (Bengal) to Western! Moreover, the user has done similar vandalism in multiple articles only in order to promote Western Bengali Guhas. Thanks. ] (]) 08:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*In response to Bishonen's comments, I would like to inform here that Sitush is referring to my response at a time when {{u|Nobita456}}'s sock was driving a discussion and I had filed an SPI! Therefore, I was delaying the discussion in order to eliminate the sock from the same. Sitush has been quoted out of context! Thanks. ] (]) 12:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 12:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*:{{u|Orientls}}, the user has already been blocked for vandalism; I have years of experience in this area and quite sure of what I have mentioned! Thanks. ] (]) 06:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:{{ping|Bishonen}} I have clearly mentioned that I am not sure! But, {{u|Orientls}} seems to be so sure that they have stated that I am 'falsely' accusing him of meatpuppetry! How can you be so sure that there has been no mail exchanges? Orientls, do you think you are God? Regards. ] (]) 06:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=== |
====Statement by Orientls==== | ||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
I find this comment by Ekdalian unpalatable: "The user intends to misrepresent and project their caste as Kulin Kayastha." How are you so sure of their caste? I don’t see where they have self-identified as such, and you also accuse them of attempting to project "their caste'" with another one by "vandalising" Misplaced Pages, which is a serious accusation against a new editor. I think an editor of your tenure should be able to recognize what constitutes vandalism because those edits are not vandalism, you should also refrain from speculating about the caste of editors. | |||
This request has now been open for ten days without input by uninvolved admins (and indeed apparently without input by users not involved in Eastern Europe editing disputes). My best guess is this is because | |||
*the request is not so obviously either well founded or without merit that it could be disposed of quickly but needs close examiniation by several uninvolved people, | |||
*it involves very many and serious allegations of longterm misconduct on the part of an established editor, and | |||
*many administrators may not want to go anywhere near something that appears to be related to the hugely conflictual ] case and/or its parties. | |||
For these reasons, I believe that this request is ill-suited to be dealt with under arbitration enforcement procedures. I propose that we - the admins working at AE - refer it to the Arbitration Committee so that they may decide whether to take it as a full case, dismiss it or otherwise dispose of it. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 16:32, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
reasoning seems odd, especially when Sitush himself states: "CharlesWain began this discussion. They are not a sock, are they?" , implying that you were opposing changes proposed by an editor who was not a sock by misrepresenting Sitush's comments. I also think canvassing was inappropriate, particularly with its problematic heading, "Kind attention: Bishonen and admins active here." It sounds as if you are trying to recruit people to back you up here. | |||
: I concur with Sandstein on all counts - with cases of these nature you're looking at things which have been bubbling up for months or years and an uninvolved admin is practically unable to make a judgement call because of a lack of comprehension of that history - there seems to be bad blood on both sides and it's unclear whether it's all just a misunderstanding, or whether one side's targetting the other, or reacting to the other. ArbCom should be asked in this case for assistance. ] 06:31, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
Honestly, I’m not surprised by the diffs cited in the report, especially if your conduct at ARE is like this where your edits are under scrutiny. | |||
::OK, I'll ask the Committee to take a look and am closing the thread here. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 06:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{ping|Bishonen}} While the filer himself made it clear that he is not "seeking any topic bans", Ekdalian deserves a topic ban following this . By calling an editor with almost 4k edits a "comparatively new user" and falsely accusing him of "meatpuppetry", Ekdalian has proven he is not capable of editing here without poisoning the well and making personal attacks. ] (]) 03:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I am familiar with the history here, and have reviewed the evidence. Uncollapsing the thread now because reading tiny type was giving me a headache. ] <sup>]</sup> 11:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
== Abd == | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning Ekdalian=== | |||
''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
===Request concerning Abd=== | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
; User requesting enforcement : ] (]) 08:33, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*I will point out that I was ] by Ekdalian. That said, I'll state that I don't think NXcrypto's diffs are anything much; it's surely a stretch to call them "casting apersions" and "poisoning the well" and the like, especially in the IPA area where the tone is often sharp. The comments by Sitush are a little more concerning, though. ] | ] 10:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
==Alex 19041== | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
=== Request concerning Alex 19041 === | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Abd}} | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement: {{userlinks|Est. 2021}} 16:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested: {{userlinks|Alex 19041}}<p>{{ds/log|Alex 19041}}</p> | |||
;Sanction or remedy that this user violated : ] | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : : | |||
# Removes from Ghost the lead paragraph that has been heavily disputed, and claims himself the arbiter of how much consensus is needed to place it on the lead. | |||
# Removes the pseudoscience arbitration case notice from ]. (unlogged edit) He wasn't an originating party from either the "does Ghost belong to pseudoscience category" dispute, or the "should we place the pseudoscience arbitration notice here" dispute | |||
## Removes it again, saying that the argument should count even if it was made by an IP. | |||
# Comments out of the RfC section, in a topic that was not covered by the RfC | |||
# Removes the NSF commentary from the pseudoscience case notice in ] (directly relevant to the Ghost dispute) | |||
# Uses the whitelist page to comment on a lot of requests where he is not an originating party. Notice that the meaning of "originating party" was further clarified two weeks ago and this is a clear violation. | |||
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required): # Warning by {{user|Enric Naval}} | |||
;Enforcement action requested (], ] or ]) : One week block, as the restriction says. | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] & ] | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : Ghost-related violations: Abd is not an originating party of the already-existing dispute that was going on ]. He has commented on the dispute outside of the context of the RfC, and he has extended the already-existing dispute about the NSF source into the Pseudoscience talk page. | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it: | |||
:Whitelist-related violations: Abd held a discussion ] about improving the whitelist, but he has implemented it in a way that allows him to comment in any already-existing dispute that involves a whitelisting request, independently of whether he was an originating party or not. In , he advises an editor about COI, and this sort of advice is what caused the problems with LirazSiri, with those problems leading to his last AE block. | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
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:He made two additional diffs that are not so clear-cut, so I sent those to requests for clarification. The diffs listed above are the clear-cut ones, and they are by themselves a clear violation. --] (]) 08:35, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
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; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested |
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: | ||
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===Discussion concerning |
===Discussion concerning Alex 19041=== | ||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by |
====Statement by Alex 19041==== | ||
See also ] filed by Enric Naval. When Enric first complained about my Ghost edits, I placed a request on my Talk page noting that I would respect any clarification by a neutral administrator covering this new interpretation, pending resolution. Absent such, since Enric Naval was highly involved in the subject RfAr and has consistently presented himself as an adverse party, with a number of complaints that were not sustained, I do not consider his interpretation binding. This request, however, reaches even beyond that. I respond in detail in collapse, if anyone needs detail. The collapse summaries should be adequate as non-evidenced response. | |||
{{collapse top|1. Single edit to ], not a participation in discussion of a dispute}} | |||
The existing dispute was over the use of an NSF report in an attempt to establish a scientific consensus that belief in ghosts was a pseudoscientific belief. The edit did not weigh in on this, but rather on a different issue, whether or not the NSF comment was sufficiently notable and required by balance ''in the lede.'' One does not make oneself the "sole arbiter" of some text by asserting a single edit. Nor did this edit "discuss" an extant controversy, which was over an RS issue, not lede characteristics as such. The comment about consensus was my understanding of our guidelines. | |||
{{collapse top|about the lede and why this was inappropriate, not relevant to ban interpretation issue}} | |||
Ledes should enjoy the highest level of consensus, more difficult issues should be covered in the text. That lede text is considered to require references is a sign that it may not reflect high consensus; generally everything in the lede should be established in the article, so references are redundant, and the lede should be a summary of the most notable and clear aspects of a topic. If Misplaced Pages had a Summary of Knowledge publication, consisting only of ledes from articles, would this text be in it? I didn't think so, hence I removed it. That removal did not take a position on the raging debate over the National Science Foundation reference, and I did not touch the later section in the article where it was used (the section on the situation in the United States); that usage, in fact, shows the narrowness of the NSF issue and why it doesn't belong in the lede. "Ghosts" are a global concept, and the situation in one nation is a small part of the topic. | |||
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{{collapse top|2. Pseudoscience arbitration case notice: not a participation in discussion of a dispute}} | |||
At the time, ] was not in the pseudoscience category. It is now, but only as a result of protection of the "wrong version" in the middle of an edit war over it. Further, that notice was being used to insert an unsigned personal opinion, under color of an ArbComm finding. The simplest way to deal with it was to remove it. Ordinarily, I'd have made a single edit, as I initially did, and then left final disposition to the community. But autologout had struck, so it was IP. And then an editor removed it as if it had been vandalism, not appearing to read the edit summary. So I restored it logged-in, and noted that edits by IP editors should receive the same respect as edits by logged-in editors, generally. The edit was again reverted and I did not continue. There is serious disruption going on at ] and in the pseudoscience area, with edit warring at ], ], and ], such that the two articles have been full protected. I am not the cause of this disruption, not even close. I have only asserted, simply, normal editorial positions, without discussion (except for the inadvertent post mentioned outside collapse and allowed RfC comment). This kind of activity is not what the sanction was designed to address. | |||
I was not aware of a "should we place the arbitration notice here" dispute. Perhaps Enric Naval could point out where it was. It became a dispute later, may still be in dispute, I don't know. If it started with the original placement and my removal, am I then an "originating party"? It doesn't matter, in fact, because I don't intend to discuss it. I took an action, a permitted one, not "discussion" but ordinary editing (with the minimal encouraged "discussion" of edit summary explaining the edit). | |||
I have been made aware of the rules and will follow them in the future - I hope this suffices as a statement as I don't think there is anything worth adding that hasn't been said already | |||
The edit was a completely independent judgment and not relevant to the original dispute, on the face. That my edit appeared to support one side of a dispute does not mean that it was a comment on the dispute. I was asserting a Talk page content issue, and that assertion did not address the standing dispute, which was not over the Talk page notice itself, even though those arguing might preferentially have one position or another. My work is not defined by several editors arguing, and was not a "comment" on their dispute. It was my action, as a member of the community who attempts to anticipate consensus, acting to express it. In the end, whether I'm correct or not will be up to the community, and these brief and quickly reversible actions, easily ignored if they are improper and find no support, are not disruptive. The raging debate, with three RfCs and counting, edit warring and repetition and multiplication of arguments, is. If I express my specific opinion about this, as to the factions, I'd be violating my ban, though it might leak through sometimes. | |||
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{{collapse top|3. Discussion in ], inadvertent ban violation, now struck}}. I struck , as soon as I realized, it being pointed out by SamJohnston, in the RfAr/Clarification, that this was discussion, not a comment in an RfC, and related to a dispute in which I was not an originating party. I'd have deleted it if it had been immediately pointed out. The edit was unsigned and probably inadvertent. I put great effort into complying with the ban, while remaining engaged in permitted activity. I occasionally write a response, then dump it as it becomes clear to me that it would push the edge of the ban. I am attempting to interpret the ban very strictly, as I agreed to do. Had I been blocked for this edit, I'd have had no response but "Oops! Sorry!" At this point, I really don't understand why I'd even write the thing, all I can imagine is that I became confused as to where I was, given that I was also commenting, around the same time, in two different RfCs over the basic issue. So, at this point, I'd request one thing relevant to enforcement. If not for the ban, would that edit have been harmful? It is expressing what will probably be community consensus when the smoke clears, and, if not, at least it was a reasonable expression of what will become part of the consensus. I consider that edit crossed into doubtful territory, at least, so it is not a toe in the door, and I request that I not be blocked as a result of it. Repetition of such edits would appropriately see response with a block, even if inadvertent. I would also not object to a short block or a block log annotation, so that there is a ready record of violation history. However, this does not apply to the rest of what Enric Naval has alleged. --] (]) 17:09, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
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{{collapse top|4. Alleged removal of NSF commentary: Not a removal and not discussion.}} | |||
Since the removal of the notice, an RfAr ruling on pseudoscience placed on a Talk page for an article not in the pseudoscience category, the topic not being covered in the definition of pseudoscience in the ruling itself, was reverted, I then so that it was clear that it was separate, addressing the most serious problem. I did not, as claimed by Enric Naval, remove it. I think he didn't read the whole diff. This is all normal editorial process whereby some compromise is made that preserves the critical values of all sides. I was disputing the Talk page notice and how it was presented, and working this out quickly and efficiently without tendentious discussion. That, it seems, is what ArbComm wanted me to do. I was not intervening in someone else's dispute, even though my actions might have an effect on that dispute. | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
Note that the entire ruling was again later as misleading or confusing. That may or may not stand. I do not necessarily support the removal, in fact, because I do not support arguing over trivialities, and especially not revert warring over them. I am not taking a side in the dispute between editors, on-wiki. (Off-wiki, I certainly have my opinions.) If one faction wants it in, and it is on a Talk page and does not do serious harm, why not leave it for a while? I simply took action, based on project welfare, and the sanction only covers certain kinds of discussion. I was personally content with separating out the most contentious part so that it was attributed, and possibly, if it were still considered disruptive (as argued in the latest removal) might have added some more qualifying text that would avoid misinterpretation. But I'm probably done with that issue, and I'm discussing it here only because of this AE request. In general, enforcement efforts over the sanction have caused far more waste of time than any disruption resulting from my alleged violations, most of which have not been sustained where examined. | |||
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{{collapse top|5. Whitelist activity: Not a dispute and not discussion of a dispute}} | |||
I'm flabbergasted by this one. Whitelist requests have been sitting for as long as two months with no response, or there is a single comment that is ambiguous and makes no decision. I've been in extensive discussion with Beetstra over this for a very long time, up to a year, and the case RfAr/Abd and JzG was originally about an improper blacklisting by an involved admin, and ArbComm confirmed there that blacklisting should not be based on admins making content decisions. However, content issues are not completely irrelevant, either, for if it is true that there is no possible legitimate usage, or that such usage would be the exception rather than the rule, this can be a factor in deciding how serious spam should be before blacklisting and then requiring whitelisting of individual pages. Big problem, though, is a lack of volunteer support at the whitelist page, and there are very few administrators working on blacklisting issues. So, after , I offered to help at the whitelist page, trying to pioneer a way for non-administrators to help, and my intention would be to solicit other editors to do the same, and to develop clearer guidelines for whitelisting requests. To do that, I need experience making whitelist judgments. So I've started doing that. These are simply expressed opinions on a whitelisting request. They are completely independent, though I do consider any comments that exist already. None of these would be at the level of dispute as contemplated in the sanction, though it's possible that someone will dispute my comments. There is no assertion that any comment is improper. There is no dispute at all until there is a decision, though if I come across a request where there is serious dispute, I might consider that and recuse because of the ban. Someone else can look at them, and I'll try to facilitate that happening. | |||
===Result concerning Alex 19041=== | |||
I'm trying to make it quick and efficient to get a page whitelisted if there is an adequate ''possibility'' of legitimacy, and in doing this, there is a lot of flexibility. I can recommend "no action," but suggest to the requestor that they obtain support from other editors at an article Talk page, for example, or perhaps at a WikiProject. And if they do, then I can change my recommendation. Blacklist admins very obviously don't have time for this, and that is not their fault at all. | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
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*To recap what's already been said at the initial hearing this got ], it has been identified that Alex19041 is not extended-confirmed, has now been made aware of the 30/500 editing restriction for PIA, has acknowledged that they should not make any edits to the topic, but has not quite acknowledged that they also should not make comments relating to the topic outside of article space. If they can acknowledge that, an IBAN would be unnecessary as they will not be engaging further with the discussion at-issue for some time. If they can't acknowledge that, we'd likely need to escalate to blocks, as there's no reason to expect the IBAN to be observed. Some concern was also raised that Est. 2021's replies to Alex 19041 included personal attacks, although it should be noted that Est. 2021 has made an effort to remove potentially-problematic statements from their prior comments at ARBCOM (sections on their talk page containing similar language have been removed entirely, which is within their purview on a user talk page). <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
My work there also will be of no effect, a waste of time, if no blacklist admin respects it. I have no coercive power, nor would I want it. But this is an opportunity for blacklist admins to stop making content decisions when they deny a request (or, for that matter, grant it, though a whitelisting does ''not'' make a decision that a link is to be used). As I see it, admins would never deny a request, they would let the community do that, and the community can make content decisions. Then, if an admin participates in a whitelist discussion, it's only as a member of the community. A close as "whitelist," however, requires an admin, because it's an edit to a protected page. I'm proceeding with sensitivity and cooperation, I hope. | |||
*(came here from the ill-fated ArbCom case request). I agree with Rosguill. Some assurance from Alex 19041 and from Est. 2021 that they will leave the problematic edits behind would be good.] (]) 21:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I agree that the reported user needs to show some understanding that as a non-EC user, they need to leave this ] alone ''across all namespaces''. However, sanctions are for serious, ongoing problems, three unwelcome talk page posts made over the course of an hour does not strike me as sufficient cause for a formal iban. If there's more to it than that, it needs to be made clear, with diffs. ] ] 21:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*It doesn't look like {{u|Alex 19041}} has edited since the case started. Alex, if you are seeing this, you do need to come in here and respond. Ignoring this will not make it go away. ] (]) 15:33, 23 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==]-related pages== | |||
Enric Naval clearly considers the project a battleground, so that any discussion of a proposal becomes a "dispute." I don't think so. I have no intention of becoming embroiled in other people's disputes, either on the whitelist page or elsewhere. I'm just trying to help clear up the backlog, and to help make the ArbComm ruling on blacklisting a reality, while fully respecting the needs of the administrators working on antispam process. I may be uniquely placed to accomplish this, given a great deal of time spent studying blacklist issues, and quite a bit of successful work with blacklist admins. (Don't mistake the occasional flare-ups for a lack of cooperation, blacklist admins are faced with a flood of spam and it is very hard to distinguish that, sometimes, from legitimate content additions, and they get faced with charges of "censorship!" all the time. They need help and support that, at the same time, respects the goal: a functional editorial community which also needs assistance and support, necessary for the project.) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
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{{collapse top|Enric Naval's warning: not about the only actual violation (number 3)}} | |||
Enric Naval warned me only about the first item in his list. I responded adequately there, soliciting clarification from any neutral admin, should any agree with him. None did. The only violation here is his item 3, which was inadvertent, I was slow to recognize it when SamJohnston pointed it out, because of the noise about "violations" that weren't. You can see in my edits to RfAr/Clarification that at first I thought he was pointing to RfC text, I was astonished to find that he was right, so sure was I that I'd confined discussion to comment in RfC. Perfect and error-free, I am not. | |||
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*'''@Verbal''' Please do not bring an open content dispute here, there is an RfC on the very position you are asserting, and your position is not the majority one, so far. That may change. It's moot for AE, because my sanction does not prohibit me from making errors about content. As to length of comment, my essential response is all visible outside of collapse, each collapse having a descriptive title that says it. There is no obligation to read the "details." Is there harm in them being made available? --] (]) 19:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*'''@TS''' ''Continually injecting these thousand-word essays into discussions on Misplaced Pages.'' '''Have I done this anywhere recently, even once, let alone "continually"?''' I assume I'm allowed freedom on my own Talk page, and to present evidence and argument as needed when I'm hauled before ArbComm or AE. If I'm being "continually" hauled before ArbComm or AE, maybe some attention should be paid to that, and to who is doing it. You do realize it's the same people, don't you? --] (]) 19:34, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*'''@Hans Adler.''' While I appreciate your support, the question here is my right to make the edits, not whether they were "correct" or not. While your view, if accepted, might be an ameliorating factor in ban enforcement, that's about it. Thanks. --] (]) 19:41, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{collapse top|@JzG and One Night in Hackney: I disputed an unopposed extreme claim by an editor on the blacklist page, thus originating a "dispute" as allowed.}} | |||
*'''@JzG and One Night in Hackney.''' These editors raise as a new problem. Whether songfacts.com is RS or not is not the issue in itself, the issue for blacklisting is spamming, and thus there may be some dispute between an alleged spammer and someone demanding the spam stop. However, that isn't a dispute, per se, usually, on the blacklist page. (there is no practice of notifying "spammers" of blacklist discussions, and they normally don't see these and comment). It may be relevant, however, that discussion exists, because if there is a possibility of cooperative behavior from the "spammer," blacklisting is not to be used, by policy. Because I'd been discussing songfacts.com, off-wiki, with an administrator, and had investigated the site and found that it does appear to be, even, reliable source, in spite of the legal disclaimer ONIH found, it was important to note that possibility, since otherwise had been claimed. In other words, I was not intervening in the dispute between the spammer and the other editor (from which I explicitly have refrained, precisely because of my ban, even though I think I could be useful there, as I've been in the past with such offenders, they listen to sympathetic advice much better than "go away, dirty spammer!" which is, too often, the text or subtext, even if unintended), but '''I was disputing a claim by an editor on the blacklist page. Before that, there was no dispute on that page.''' So, for this "dispute," if we want to call it that, I'm an '''originating party,''' sorry to have to wikilawyer to that extent. My ban does not prohibit me from originating disputes. That someone somewhere else might be involved in some similar or related dispute doesn't make my independent comment an intervention in that other dispute. It stands apart from it, and does not resolve it or attempt to resolve it, though a resulting community consensus might have an effect. | |||
===Request concerning ]-related pages=== | |||
Whether or not songfacts.com is RS or not is not the issue here, and it wastes all our time for irrelevant issues to be brought here. I am not under a sanction to never make an error in an argument, even if I did that. These AE requests have, however, often been an occasion for editors to scour my contributions looking for anything they disagree with, which they toss in the hopper, making it look like I'm being massively disruptive, challenging the edges, etc. I have extensive experience with blacklisting issues, having brought an RfAr over blacklist abuse by JzG, confirmed as such by ArbComm, but I did far more work with the blacklist than was about JzG, with quite a bit of success, and with successful cooperation with blacklist admins. And now this is being threatened, not because I'm disruptive at the blacklist/whitelist, -- that's preposterous if you look at the pages -- but because a long-term agenda to ban me from the site (I've documented this before, it's been openly expressed) sees opportunities. If this is not noticed and stopped, it will continue until I'm banned again, or spike my password, and when I'm gone, the same editors will continue to do this with others, as they did before I ever became involved, while I was site-banned, and in matters that involve me not at all. | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Beeblebrox}} 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Pages about which enforcement is requested : ]-related pages | |||
I made an additional comment on the blacklist talk page in response to comment from Beetstra, which could be seen as a closer approach to the ban edge, because Beetstra had referred to the IP editor's behavior, though I was still trying to avoid comment on the dispute (on the IP editor Talk page), as can be seen, so, since nobody has replied to that edit, I have , even though it has not been mentioned here. --] (]) 18:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
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*'''@Enric Naval:''' The is very specific as to this '''3.3) Abd is indefinitely prohibited from discussing any dispute in which he is not an originating party. This includes . He may, however, vote or comment at polls.''' I am prohibited from discussing the disputes of others on Misplaced Pages pages. I am not prohibited from non-discussion action, such as editing an article. I may not enter an existing dispute ''discussion.'' While I could start a new section and discuss my own independent issue, I'm not aware of taking advantage of this anywhere that an existing dispute is involved, and usually it is not needed. I may watch and comment in RfCs that appear, though, and I am under no 0RR restriction or the like. Thus the original intention of the ban, probably about "tomes" considered offensive, is not violated by ordinary article space edits, which are not "discussion," unless I made them so, nor by other edits which do not ''discuss'' a standing dispute, and especially if the length is restrained. --] (]) 19:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*'''@SamJohnston''' beats dead horse. Response to charge (3) above discusses that edit and acknowledges ban violation and discusses response. Generally, Misplaced Pages does not punish, but acts to prevent damage. I made an edit, inadvertent or not, and it's up to enforcing administrators as to what is best for the wiki, and I only ask that such be neutral, as policy requires. --] (]) 19:25, 18 March 2010 (UTC) <small>Providing evidence to prove a violation already acknowledged by me, with link, is indeed "beating a dead horse," that's what it means, belaboring the obvious and already accepted. --] (]) 04:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
{{collapse top|General comment on enforcement.}} In reviewing this, if block response (and there was one violating edit) is found appropriate, I ask that the block record be considered. Please notice that the two blocks began with one week (excessive for first ban block), were placed by a single admin, already in dispute with me over a serious issue (recusal failure re prior threat to block another, made on my Talk page), and were not based on any of the AE reports or RfAr/Clarifications, with respect to actions that were not covered by the ban as understood at that time. To avoid disruption, I accepted a much tighter definition of the ban, and then, second incident in particular, was blocked for something that I never dreamed would be covered, that already existed during the tightening clarification, and that hadn't been considered to be a violation previously, and without warning, other than uselessly general ones. --] (]) 19:37, 18 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
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*'''@Stifle.''' I agree that there was a technical violation, number 3 in the list above, and I acknowledged that immediately as soon as it was pointed out. If you believe that any other edit violated the sanction, it would be useful to note it, or to note the absence of such, so that this whole thing isn't a waste. Thanks. --] (]) 14:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning Abd ==== | |||
=====Comment by Verbal===== | |||
Two quick points, having not read all of Abd's wall-o-text. 1, is there/shouldn't there be a limit on the length of Abd's response? Collapsing bits isn't a substitute. 2, Ghost '''is''' in the pseudoscience category, via the paranormal category, so his reasoning on that whole point is faulty (this doesn't preclude other instances of his reasoning being faulty). <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 18:52, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
: Could we impose a community remedy requiring Abd to communicate normally? Five or six brief sentences should be enough for anybody. Continually injecting these thousand-word essays into discussions on Misplaced Pages is perhaps the most destructive of Abd's activities. --] 19:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::I believe this was a restriction or similar (recommendation?) placed on him at the close of a previous arbcom case. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 19:57, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
'''@Abd''' I haven't brought a dispute here, that Ghost is in the PS category (whether that category is on the page or not) is an easily verifiable fact, and a fact that no one has disputed - or can without being shown to be wrong. And yes, there is a harm especially when they contain incorrect statements that at first blush appear true - such as saying Ghost isn't in the PS cat, or that this is disputed. The level of it's inclusion has been a topic of minor dispute, but it's still there (Cat Ghosts -> cat paranormal -> cat pseudoscience). Also, there is a simple way of ending Abd's attachment to AE and ArbCom, which would be a net positive for the project. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 19:53, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
'''Hans''' On ghost I feel it is justified, on witches I'm not really interested, and I don't know of any other article where this has been pushed, and it's not relevant either. As for Ghost, I honestly disagree with you there. Please calm down - I'm not part of any gang (not even one of abd's famous cabals). <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 19:57, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
I ''think'' this is the right place to ask for this? Requesting an expansion of ] to cover all articles related to ], as it has unfortunately become a political hot-button issue as the POTUS made it a prioroty on his first day back in office to sign an executive order to revert the name of the mountain back to "Mt. McKinley". | |||
*Existing dispute: Abd has made it clear that what attracted him to the Ghost dispute was the presence of "cabal" editors, with whom he is already in a dispute with, making this indeed a clear violation of his restriction and a case of hounding - which it was clearly anyway, as are most of his "interventions". <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 22:19, 19 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
In the past twenty-four hours there has been heavy editing/disruption in articles and on related talk pages and protection has been needed at several. ] was probably hit hardest, but ] got some too, as has ], which is explicitly not even part of the executive order. I wouldn't be surprised if the same issue is happening in ] related articles, but haven't checked for myself. ] ] 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Hans Adler===== | |||
Concerning Enric's diffs and : | |||
:Yeah, just checked Gulf of Mexico. 28 new talk page sections in the past day, was already ECP protected two weeks ago per ]. | |||
Abd removed two passages based on crass misrepresentations of an NSF paper. Every editor with a bit of experience with scientific or scholarly work (such as having written and refereed scientific publications) can see immediately that these paragraphs were quote-mined and quoted out of context. #1 was worse than #4 in that it appeared in article space. The passage would have been somewhat defensible (although still problematic) if it had appeared in the body of the article. But putting it in the lead is simply not reasonable and makes it a misquotation. #4 was worse than #1 in that it contained a ''lie''. A lie that was put at the head of the article talk page in order to intimidate other editors and make them believe ] is without any doubt a pseudoscience topic, because: "The ], as expressed by the ], has identified belief in ten subjects to be pseudoscientific beliefs. They are: ]s, ]es, ], ." Yes, that's what it claimed, with reference to a section "Belief in Pseudoscience" of Chapter 7 ("Public Attitudes and Understanding") of the 2006 edition (only) of a biannual NSF publication on "Science and Engineering Indicators". | |||
:I kinda think a single admin could do this, but I am editorially involved and probably slightly too infuriated to be objective. ] ] 22:32, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Thanks for the replies, that's kind of what I thought, but again didn't want to act on it as I'm editorially involved. ] ] 22:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
The front matter of the paper is broken (404 error), so we don't even know who wrote that section. It certainly doesn't speak about "scientific consensus", that's all BullRangifer's original research. It doesn't claim to "identify" any beliefs in any way. It just looks at Americans' belief in pseudoscience by considering a Gallup study that examines belief in paranormal. In this context, the paper is written under the tacit assumption that paranormal implies pseudoscience to the extent necessary for the discussion, but never says so explicitly. What makes this really fishy is that the paragraph that ''suggests'' that belief in ghosts and (via a footnote) witchcraft is (sometimes? usually? always?) belief in pseudoscience is preceded by a paragraph with a correct definition of pseudoscience ("claims presented so that they appear scientific even though "), but nothing is said about the obvious contradiction. | |||
<!-- Add any further comment here --> | |||
To me, Abd does not seem to be a big problem at the moment. BullRangifer and Verbal are currently creating disruption over more and more articles and policy pages with their attempts to apply the "pseudoscience" label to everything and the kitchen sink, making liberal use of unethical methods in the process. Please take that into account. ] ] 19:32, 17 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
:<small>@Abd: The ameliorating factor is precisely what I am driving at. There is a danger that some people make up their minds too quickly about the ] situation, allow that to influence their opinion about this request, and are reluctant to revise their position when ] comes up later elsewhere, because they have already acted on their original position. ] ] 10:15, 18 March 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
===Discussion concerning ]-related pages=== | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
==== |
====Statement by ]-related pages==== | ||
The edit to Ghost and involvement in the dispute there is an unambiguous violation of the restriction on becoming involved in disputes in which Abd is not an originating party. Claiming that it was not related to pseudoscience because the category was not in the article at the time is both false and blatant Wikilawyering since the entire dispute is about the categorisation of this subject as pseudoscience. | |||
====Statement by Isabelle==== | |||
Hans is arguing that the content of the edits was right. This is irrelevant. It was a dispute and Abd piled in to make a controversial edit taking one side of an existing dispute. Sure, Hans likes the result, Hans is one of those on the side of removing all references to the NST's categorisation of belief in ghosts as pseudoscience, but that is not the point at issue, the point at issue is: did Abd violate his ban on becoming involved in pre-existing disputes? It is unarguably true that this is precisely what he did. | |||
Since I've protected Denali's talk page, I will comment here. I agree that we will be seeing serious issues in the coming month, considering all the shit the new president is throwing at the wall, but I believe the administrators are well equip to deal with this at the moment. I believe {{u|Valereee}} has protected the Gulf of Mexico's talk page, and I've dealt with Mount Denali's. We might need to apply more extensive protection during this coming month to stop the vandals, but current tools will do just fine. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 23:04, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Valereee==== | |||
The spam blacklist discussions are also violations of the restriction on becoming involved in disputes in which Abd is not an originating party. Asserting that there is no problem because people can ignore him is blatant Wikilawyering against the clear intent of the restriction, the context of which includes Abd's involvement in spam blacklist / whitelist discussions. Songfacts is a dispute involving an IP editor who has been spamming the site, that is not Abd's battle. | |||
Pinged here: yes, I've semi'd Talk:Gulf of Mexico, yesterday for 24 hours, today for another 31. I dislike protecting a talk, but it was a burden for editors working there. ] (]) 23:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:100+ edits today on the article, which is EC protected. I feel like that's a lot. ] (]) 23:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
The comments by Abd above are unambiguous violations of the requirement not to continually rake over the coals of past disputes - in effect "whatever you say, I was still right". | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
Enforcement, please. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 10:16, 18 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning ]-related pages=== | |||
=====Comment by One Night In Hackney===== | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
Following on from what JzG says, the songfacts intervention is decidedly unhelpful. When he states "It appears that this is not a site with pure user-generated content. Users may submit content but it is reviewed and fact-checked before being published" this has no basis in reality. songfacts.com/legal.php (no direct link to avoid cocking up the blacklisting) says "Songfacts, LLC does not guarantee the accuracy of the information posted, as it may contain technical and factual errors", so there is no reputation for fact checking and accuracy. Abd is simply attempting to crusade against the use of the blacklist in cases he doesn't think it appropriate, regardless of the actual facts of the situation. I would agree wholeheartedly with enforcement, the constant pushing of the limits of his editing restriction need to be dealt with firmly. <font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 14:25, 18 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*<!-- | |||
--> | |||
:@]: AMPOL already covers "Post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed". I think that "broadly construed" would include Denali and Gulf of Mexico in the current moment. In any event, I think you'd want to go to ARCA, not here, for an amendment. ] (]/]) 22:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Also, ] is already ECP and ] has semi-protection. There's no protection on ], but I'm not seeing anything in the page history that would justify it.l ] (]/]) 22:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*AE couldn't expand the scope of an existing CT designation; only ArbCom could do that. But I don't think we need to. If the disruption is related to a current American politics controversy, that's clearly related to "post-1992 politics of the United States", and so is ''already'' in scope of the existing CT designation. So, I'd say just treat it as such. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 22:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==Callmehelper== | |||
===== Additional comment by Enric Naval ===== | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
Abd keeps making edits related to the pseudoscience dispute, in which he is not an originating party. He has removed the pseudoscience category from another article he had never edited before. --] (]) 10:41, 18 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Request concerning Callmehelper=== | |||
===== Additional comment by SamJohnston ===== | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Srijanx22}} 18:30, 23 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
As I in the clarification, if you break it down this appears to be fairly straightforward: | |||
* Was there an existing dispute? | |||
* Did Abd discuss the dispute? (unsigned) | |||
* Was Abd an originating party? No. | |||
I don't believe that confining commentary to edit summaries and/or new threads evades the restriction because it ''includes, '''but is not limited to''''' talk pages et al. That said, the editing restriction is intended to avoid inflaming disputes, not prevent Abd from editing altogether (we have blocks for that). With this interpretation Abd would be able to edit provided he avoided hotspots and raised his own new issues as required. | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Callmehelper}}<p>{{ds/log|Callmehelper}}</p> | |||
While Abd claims above that this edit was "unsigned and probably inadvertent", it is still a clear violation and should result in a block - even a short one - particularly in light of subsequent editing relating to the same controversial topic. Future violations should be similarly punished, ideally with minimal time-wasting, navel-gazing discussion. If I were Abd I'd be focusing on uncontroversial edits with a view to having my restriction reviewed. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">] <small><sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">]</font></sup></small></u> 15:09, 18 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
: How is pointing out a of your ] ""? While we're at it, how does a 350 word interjection into an existing debate "inadvertently" appear, without a signature no less? Is this too? You broke the restriction so you should be blocked and if you break it again you should be blocked again - sounds fair enough to me. If you don't want to be blocked then don't constantly test the limits. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">] <small><sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">]</font></sup></small></u> 21:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
:: It occurs me that Abd's motivation for being an editor could well be sparring with other editors rather than actual, uncontroversial editing. He being more concerned about the "welfare of the project" than "personal editing rights" while saying "bye, folks, if nothing changes" because he's "so restricted that can't edit Misplaced Pages, in substance". How hard is it to follow and "find a quiet area to work in" rather than jumping head first into existing disputes? If this is indeed the case then routine enforcement of the editing restriction should prove an effective remedy. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">] <small><sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">]</font></sup></small></u> 05:34, 19 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
::: @GoRight: Abd '''is''' ] from "posing arguments in content disputes" (as he has done ) because it is '''not''' a poll and he is '''not''' an originating party: "''Abd is indefinitely prohibited from discussing any dispute in which he is not an originating party, article talk pages''". If you still can't ] that then I refer you to ], as upheld by the arbitrators: "''The rule is simple: never comment about any conflict between two or more people who are not you.''" -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">] <small><sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">]</font></sup></small></u> 05:58, 21 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
: Again boiling it down to basics, Abd ], contributed to existing content disputes and (so much for a single "inadvertent" violation), removed controversial content actively being discussed from the article and talk page and and the article was for ] the very next day. He then made a similar to the ] article, where the same topic was also an . To Hans Adler: "''He tried to help, but he wasn't helpful''". | |||
: The loopholes used to justify participation in the existing conflicts were a) article edits, b) edit summaries and c) polls. These should be closed by clarification (even if just by requiring Abd to avoid active areas). -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">] <small><sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">]</font></sup></small></u> 17:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by uninvolved Ncmvocalist===== | |||
I'm not convinced that the current sanctions are sufficient to address the core issues, like overwhelming discussion with excessive posting - I've made a ] that I think does a better job of addressing that. ] (]) 05:55, 19 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===== Comment by GoRight ===== | |||
Wow, Enric is not leaving any ] unturned. Simply put, Enric is a long time antagonist of Abd and this request should be viewed as vexatious. Enric should be barred from discussing Abd anywhere on-wiki to put an end to this continuing disruption. Abd is not barred from editing articles, enforcing[REDACTED] policy, and posing arguments in content disputes. This is all he did despite Enric's framing of the facts to suit his own purposes. --] (]) 03:39, 20 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
: @SJ : ''"Abd is barred from "posing arguments in content disputes" ... "'' - You seem to be confused on a couple of points. First, the sanction that you point to is no longer the controlling language. The language of the sanction was modified by a motion of Arbcom and can now be . Second, you seem to feel that the current language somehow restricts Abd from ''editing articles'' or ''being involved in content disputes'' over those articles. They do not. He is free to edit articles and comment on the content in question which is precisely what he did. Nothing more. Nothing less. His choice of articles, on the other hand, leaves something to be desired but it is not a violation of his restrictions. --] (]) 03:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
: General Comment : ''"The rule is simple: '''never comment about''' any conflict between two or more people who are not you."'' - Words have meanings. This statement does not restrict Abd from participating in ''content disputes'' which involve other people or for ''making arguments about that content''. This is evident from any plain reading of that text. If people are confused about what these particular words mean or if they believe that Arbcom actually intended something different than what they said, then the correct course of action is to ask Arbcom for clarification. --] (]) 06:35, 21 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
: '''A request for an uninvolved admin''' : I take note of and and the note at the top of that section which reads ''"This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above."'' and would ask that this editor's comment be moved out of the section reserved for administrators. I would have done so myself but given the current attitude this editor seems to be expressing towards me I felt it would be not well received. Thanks. --] (]) 20:29, 23 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Ludwigs2===== | |||
Well, just looking at the diffs objectively, I don't really see any problematic behavior. A few short on-point, comments, the removal of specious material that was being edit-warred into the document. I can't judge whether or not Abd's actions violated the ''letter'' of the Arbitration ruling (I leave that up to others), but I'm pretty convinced that his edits did not violate the ''spirit'' of the rulings - nothing in any of these edits speaks to someone intentionally trying to push boundaries or break rules. This whole thing seems a bit... hasty. | |||
What this decision is going to come down to is a cool-head/hot-head disagreement: a cool-headed view on this can only conclude that there's not a whole lot going on here, despite the protestations of the hot-heads. Hopefully the cool-heads will carry the day. --] 05:36, 20 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Abd=== | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
<!-- Use {{discussion top}} / {{discussion bottom}} to mark this request as closed.--> | |||
<!-- Use {{hat|result is ... }} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed if collapsing desired.--> | |||
*My first inclination is that there has been a technical violation of the restriction. However, it's stale at this stage and enforcement would be punitive. I am minded therefore to close this report with no further action, but am open to other suggestions. ] (]) 12:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:* A warning to stop testing the limits would be good. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 14:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::* Given the direction the is going, I'd tend to agree. It's not my intention to stop Abd from editing, just to stop him from editing ''disruptively''. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">] <small><sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">]</font></sup></small></u> 15:06, 23 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Tasbian == | |||
{{hat|1=Blocked 55 hours by {{user|Tim Song}}}} | |||
''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' | |||
===Request concerning Tasbian=== | |||
; User requesting enforcement : -- ''']''' (]) 01:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Tasbian}} | |||
;Sanction or remedy that this user violated : ] | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
# Unsourced, POV edits, at article, ] | |||
# Removal of word, "controversial", at article, ] | |||
# Again, removal of word, "controversial", at article, ] | |||
# Removal of word, "controversial", at article, ], and replaced it with wholly ''unsourced material''. | |||
# Unsourced, POV changes, at article ] | |||
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required): | |||
# = Warning by {{user|UberCryxic}}, regarding ] use of word "controversial" in unrelated articles | |||
# Warning by {{user|Cirt}} = warning regarding ''Scientology'' arbitration case remedies. | |||
;Enforcement action requested (], ] or ]) : ] = requested, topic ban from articles related to topic ''Scientology'', then log at ]. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : Thank you for your time, -- ''']''' (]) 01:46, 24 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : -- ''']''' (]) 01:48, 24 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning Tasbian=== | |||
====Statement by Tasbian==== | |||
In every single case the inclusion of the judgement 'controversial' itself is unsourced. Where's the < ref > ? ], and on that basis it will be avoided. And don't suffer the originator to "thank for your time": thank him for wasting your time .. with the reminder to avail article talk pages as he's utterly avoided to approach doing.] (]) 02:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning Tasbian ==== | |||
As shown by Cirt above, he has been consistently makeing bad faith edits to several articles over a wide range or topics. that I made was to remove a POV pushing and in reality, untrue statement. Regardless of how this is handled, he needs to stop one way or another.--] <sup>]</sup> 02:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Tasbian=== | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
<!-- Use {{discussion top}} / {{discussion bottom}} to mark this request as closed.--> | |||
<!-- Use {{hat|result is ... }} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed if collapsing desired.--> | |||
Not sure a discretionary topic ban can be applied here, as that remedy requires a detailed warning to the user to be given in advance. Instead, I'm going to block the user for ] given the pattern of behavior noted here. This is pursuant to the administrator's power to prevent disruption, not an AE action. ] (]) 06:33, 24 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I also notified the user that further disruption will result in a topic ban. ] (]) 17:22, 24 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{hab}} | |||
== ChrisO == | |||
''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' | |||
===Request concerning ChrisO=== | |||
; User requesting enforcement : <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 16:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|ChrisO}} | |||
;Sanction or remedy that this user violated : ] | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | ; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | ||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
# First introduction of: ''"campaign to prove the innocence of ]]]"'' into the article -- ] is the concern here, especially with the phrase about Amir who is serving a lifetime sentence without parole for murdering the Israeli Prime Minister (Rabin) in 1995. This exceptional and libellous claim is not stated on ANY Hebrew sources that I've seen (I've looked hard) and ChrisO is now citing BLP as a reason to include it? | |||
# |
# - Violates copyrights | ||
# - Files a frivolous report against other editors, mislabels their edits as "vandalism" and then rudely responds to onlookers as also noted by Liz by saying "That's a very rude reply, Callmehelper." | |||
# - again+threat. | |||
# |
# - Mislabels an edit as "vandalism". | ||
# - Trying to get article on a non-notable subject created and not dropping the ]. | |||
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required): | |||
# - Casts ] against the new page patrollers, and demeans them as "{{tq|people those rejected are so much had biased opinions that I can't discuss.}}" | |||
# - one week ban from main article -- ], in which Nahum Shahaf participated as an investigator. | |||
# - one month ban from main article. | |||
;Enforcement action requested (], ] or ]) : Be issued a final ] warning about the Yigal Amir text and his "]" to reinsert it over and over again. Further sanctions at the discretion of reviewing admin. | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
(1) ChrisO/George initially nominated the article for deletion after, for a considerable amount of time, ChrisO hasn't wasted many opportunities to call Shahaf and others who agree with him (e.g. ], ] and many others) conspiracy theorists and, on occasion, "whackjob conspiracy theorists".<br>(2) I'm displeased when ChrisO vitiated the concept of the BLP-vio by applying it (in edit summaries) on non contentious content, such as Shahaf completing his Physics Masters at Bar-Ilan University (cited to Shahaf's CV on his personal website), as a reasoning or justification to reinsert the Yigal Amir/Rabin issue through the backdoor despite being reminded of both BLP and BRD policies. This constitutes, best I can see, a repeated, wilful violation of basic content policies to which the editor in concern is fully aware. | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
'''Comments regarding statement by ChrisO:'''<br> | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
* The CV is only used for adding minor detail to already existing publication. There are documented photocopies to many of the statements linked in this page (Samples:) and this website is run by Nahum Shahaf. Also, notes on the ] include the following comment and Dlabot misdirects the discussion, which is not really developed to begin with: | |||
<!-- Add any further comment here --> | |||
**If it can be established beyond reasonable doubt it's his CV, then it would be OK to say "according to his CV ...". WP:SPS says self-published articles "may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves". See some of the provisos about use though --Insider201283 (talk) 13:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
* There exists only one English source and ZERO Hebrew sources that suggest Shahaf participated in a campaign to release Yigal Amir. This claim is libellous and cannot be compared with the adding of a date of birth or the addition that he completed his studies with honours. To bring up BLP while inserting this material is a wilful violation of basic content policies. | |||
'''Comments regarding statement by Jehochman:''' | |||
* There really is no comparison between my attempts to keep the page written like a biography and the libellous content ChrisO repeatedly inserted. One is an RfC type of issue on how the community views self published sources for notes such as that Shahaf did his CT work (already cited to ]) at Elscint or that he graduated with honours and the other is on par with the automatic revert standards expected for poorly sourced (and fallacious) libellous, exceptional and contentious content. For comparison I give the Danish reporter who decided to say the Israeli aid team harvested organs at Haiti -- we'd revert this content even though his paper is considered wiki-reliable. You can't compare this with, for example, a self-published blog article where one of the members of the aid team gives extra input to already published content such as the number of beds they had or the exact time they found someone under the rubble. | |||
'''Comments regarding statement by Gatoclass:''' | |||
* I've recently quipped on a number of forums about Gatoclass always popping up whenever one of his coterie of favourable editors (e.g. Nableezy, Tiamut, RonaldR, PalestineRemembered) is in trouble. In short, Gatoclass's commentary and analysis on the Yigal Amir "campaign" text is fallacious. That text is defamatory and ChrisO couldn't even present a second source, let alone a proper list, saying Shahaf "campaigned" to free Yigal Amir. He's been noted to the BLP nature of this dangerous statement but kept re-inserting. | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : ''The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a ] of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.'' | |||
===Discussion concerning ChrisO=== | |||
====Statement by ChrisO==== | |||
*This is a remarkably poor smear attempt by Jaakobou. As George has pointed out above, there's a substantial background to this which Jaakobou has somehow "forgotten" to mention. The issues with this article arise from unsourced and poorly sourced edits from Jaakobou: | |||
:1) Jaakobou is repeatedly reverting to a version of the article that includes a series of claims that are either unsourced or are based on unreliable sources. | |||
::1.1) Much of the background section of the article in Jaakobou's version is sourced to a ''curriculum vitae'' published (in Hebrew; . It's on a user-generated group blog or wiki (see ). A discussion at ] unanimously concluded that this was not a reliable source. As there was a unanimous agreement from all editors other than Jaakobou that this should not be included, I removed it per ]. | |||
::1.2) Jaakobou is repeatedly adding a citation which reads in full "Israeli Census - Verified March 23, 2010". This was discussed at ], which unanimously concluded that it was not a proper citation; as one uninvolved editor said, it is "not substantially different from adding a footnote that says "I read it somewhere"." As there was a unanimous agreement from all editors other than Jaakobou that this should not be included, I removed it per ]. | |||
:2) Jaakobou is repeatedly, on overt POV grounds, deleting material cited from reliable mainstream sources. | |||
::2.1) A mainstream newspaper report, "", written by Ed O'Loughlin and published by the '']''. Jaakobou rejects this source because he views Ed O'Loughlin as "an anti-Israeli" and "a Hamas supporter" . (These accusations are, needless to say, BLP violations in their own right.) As the reason for removing this was bogus, I restored it. | |||
::2.2) Rejection of quotes from '']'', a major Israeli newspaper. The article's subject sued ''Haaretz'' for defamation two years ago, though it's unclear whether any proceedings are actually ongoing. Jaakobou has repeatedly argued that this makes ''Haaretz'' an unreliable source for any facts concerning Nahum Shahaf. None of the ''Haaretz'' articles cited post-date the defamation suit. The underlying factor appears to be a POV rejection of the newspaper; Jaakobou has denounced ''Haaretz'' (despite it being an Israeli newspaper!) as "an anti-Zionist publication", hence unreliable. As the reason for removing this was bogus, I restored it. | |||
:3) Addition of uncited material. Jaakobou is repeatedly reverting to a version which includes an uncited paragraph (see from "Shahaf's investigation" onwards) as well as other uncited claims, as well as peacock quotes of no obvious relevance to the article's subject. This has been pointed out repeatedly on the talk page to no effect. As this material was unsourced, I removed it per ]. | |||
Do I need to point out what ] says right at the top of the policy page? "Contentious material about living persons that is '''unsourced or poorly sourced''' — whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable — should be '''removed immediately and without waiting for discussion'''". This is what I have done, explicitly citing WP:BLP as the reason for removing this material. Quoting further from ], "Editors who find themselves in edit wars over potentially defamatory information about living persons should bring the matter to the Biographies of Living Persons noticeboard." That is what I have also done . Everything that I've done in this respect has been by the letter of ]. I see no reason why I should be sanctioned for following the letter of the BLP policy. | |||
By contrast, Jaakobou's removal of content has been for completely improper reasons, as I've set out above. The material I added is sourced to multiple mainstream reliable sources in English (his claim that there are no Hebrew sources is a red herring; just because sources aren't online doesn't mean they don't exist). See ] for a summary of the sources. By contrast, an editor's personal dislike of an individual journalist or an individual publication is not valid grounds for removing content. The material Jaakobou added is either unsourced or poorly sourced. WP:BLP ''requires'' the removal of such material. | |||
I might point out that over on the BLP noticeboard ] recommended referring the matter here if Jaakobou continued inserting unsourced or poorly sourced material. This intervention is a fairly transparent attempt to get a retaliation in first. -- ] (]) 22:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC) <small>(Comment moved to this section from the general discussion section below by <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 22:30, 25 March 2010 (UTC)</small> | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning ChrisO ==== | |||
;Comments by Durova | |||
Just stating in general terms that self-published sources could be used within biography articles to provide positive information about the subject. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 16:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC) <small>(Comment moved to this section from beneath the main header by <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 16:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC))</small> | |||
:Thank you for the move, Sandstein. Apologies for the misplacement. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 17:06, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Thank you for the explanation, George. It would be unusual but not unheard-of for open edit sites to get abused to post spoofed information as if it were self-published. Not saying that's happened here, but it did happen in another BLP that related to a different arbitration. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 20:46, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
;Comments by George | |||
*The problem, Durova, is that the curriculum vitae (CV), which is alleged to be self-published, is hosted on a website that says that it's made up of user-generated and uploaded content; from the About page: " editors and bloggers are an elite group of users (mainly voluntarely) that voluntarely post interesting and relevant articles to share with their communities... Editors can even post their own original articles and photos." I ], and it was found to ''not'' be a reliable source by uninvolved editors. Now, Jaakobou has made some interesting arguments for why he thinks it is self-published by Shahaf, and I invited him to bring them up at RSN, but thus far he has chosen not to. Oh, and editors should probably review ]. ← ]<sup> ]</sup> 20:22, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*One thing regarding Jaakobou's additional comments: ChrisO did not nominate the article for deletion—I did, on the basis of ]. Oddly, Shahaf's Rabin assassination theories was given as one of the things that made Shahaf notable for more than one event. ← ]<sup> ]</sup> 20:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*Editors should note in the diffs that ChrisO wasn't ''only'' re-inserting the Rabin assassination theory material, but also reverting pretty extensive insertion of material by Jaakobou, which was itself unsourced or poorly sourced biographical information. ← ]<sup> ]</sup> 20:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*General comment: Why is this issue being brought up here? Where is the ] concerning this information? Where is the discussion about whether or not the information (regarding Shahaf's Rabin assassination theories) is properly sourced? Where is the discussion about whether it constitutes a violation of BLP? On the one hand, you're claiming that the CV is hosted on Shahaf's personal website, while at the same time objecting to content about Rabin assassination theories when there is a section of that same website named "Rabin assassination". In general, I find the information on Shahaf's theories to be properly cited to reliable sources, but I wouldn't oppose a discussion on the subject via ]. ← ]<sup> ]</sup> 20:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*Also, for editor's info, this filing comes a day after ] on the BLP noticeboard. Essentially, I think the two editors, each believing they were reverting BLP-violations by the other, got into a minor edit war, as Jehochman described. It wasn't particularly long or heated, so hopefully these issues can be resolved through ]. ← ]<sup> ]</sup> 21:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
;Comments by IronDuke | |||
As someone who has made major contributions to the article, I would say as a general note, there's been a concerted effort to denigrate the subject, both by removing positives and enhancing (at least what are perceived to be) negatives. I also wonder at the insistence on suggesting NS engaged in a "campaign to prove the innocence of Yigal Amir." I see no source which supports that emphasis, and the sources I've seen mention NS's beliefs in this only in passing. I don't think I've even seen a source that suggests what NS thinks the mechanics of the actual assassination actually were unlike, for example, his work on Muhammad al-Dura. Further, in a BLP when good faith questions arise, it is important to gain consensus before reinserting questionable material. <font color="green">]</font> 03:49, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I don't think this is a fair description of what has been happening. George and RomaC have been doing good work (without my involvement) on cleaning up the article to take out unsourced or poorly sourced material. George has taken material to the RSN to obtain feedback. Nobody has objected to including "positive" material ''if'' it can be reliably sourced. The main issue of contention here is that one editor - Jaakobou - is repeatedly restoring unsourced or poorly sourced material which all other editors who have reviewed it have ''unanimously'' said should not be included. Don't forget, the onus is on an editor to show why content should be included; Jaakobou is editing against a unanimous consensus. As ] says, "In order to ensure that information about living people is always policy-compliant (written neutrally to a high standard, and based on good quality reliable sources) '''the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material.''' Editors adding or restoring material must ensure it meets all Misplaced Pages content policies and guidelines, not just verifiability of sources." Jaakobou has not come close to ensuring this; he hasn't even addressed many of the concerns that George has raised, as the lengthy discussions on ] (see e.g. George's comments at ]) demonstrate. -- ] (]) 09:37, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; Comment by Gatoclass | |||
First of all, I must say I am somewhat suprised by Jehochman's initial response below re ChrisO's insertion of allegedly "controversial" material. It appears that from ], there is plenty of verification for the statements added to the article by ChrisO - although admittedly there is only one source which describes the theories advanced by the BLP in question as "conspiracy" theories. | |||
Secondly, it's clear that Jaakobou has inserted material that is either inadequately sourced or wrongly sourced - confirmed by the two threads at BLPN. According to policy, ChrisO was perfectly within his rights to remove it, so I don't see a problem there. That leaves Jaakobou's reinsertion of substandard sources into a BLP to deal with. In my experience, this is a typical modus operandi for Jaakobou - insertion of badly sourced, or completely unsourced material, while removing well sourced material because of alleged "bias" of the authors. This kind of thing can be deeply frustrating to good faith editors. Given Jaakobou's many appearances at noticeboards like this for similar behaviour, I have to ask myself - how much longer is it going to be tolerated? ] (]) 07:10, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning ChrisO=== | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
<!-- Use {{discussion top}} / {{discussion bottom}} to mark this request as closed.--> | |||
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Awaiting statement by ChrisO. I am perplexed, to say the least, how ChrisO can justify the cited edits as BLP enforcement. He's inserting controversial content at the same time he's removing other controversial content. This looks like edit warring by ChrisO and Jaakobou. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
: Both ChrisO and Jaakobou have been edit warring. Do you both understand this and agree to stop? ] <sup>]</sup> 11:09, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Pieter Kuiper == | |||
''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' | |||
===Request concerning Pieter Kuiper=== | |||
; User requesting enforcement : -- ''']''' (]) 16:35, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Pieter Kuiper}} | |||
;Sanction or remedy that this user violated : | |||
*All articles in topic ] are on existing Article probation, from ] | |||
*] | |||
*] | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
# Unsourced change to ] article in Scientology topic, article ]. | |||
# Removal of sourced information from page ]. | |||
# ], following me over to ] submission page in attempt to get nomination derailed. -- ''']''' (]) 16:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
# ] violation, claiming personal interpretation somehow trumps ]. | |||
# Again, removal of sourced information, from page, ]. | |||
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required): | |||
# Warning by {{user|Cirt}} -- warning regarding making unsourced changes to ] article, ]. | |||
# Warning by {{user|Cirt}} -- 2nd warning regarding making unsourced changes to ] article, in scope of Scientology topic. | |||
# Warning by {{admin|Cirt}} -- 3rd warning regarding making unsourced changes to ] article. | |||
;Enforcement action requested (], ] or ]) : Block, and/or topic ban, per discretion of reviewing administrator. -- ''']''' (]) 16:35, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
*See also at ]. | |||
*On related matter, user {{user|Pieter Kuiper}} appears to be exhibiting form of ], importing a dispute from ], see for example, comment by the user acknowledging this behavior . | |||
Thank you for your time, -- ''']''' (]) 16:35, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:'''Comment:''' Let's hope that a warning to {{user|Pieter Kuiper}} regarding behavior, subsequently logged at ], should be sufficient to deal with the issue. -- ''']''' (]) 19:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Sandstein: The source indicated that the subject was 16 years old in 1991, and the source was published in December. Which made it very likely that Saxton was born in 1975. ] But once the source was challenged I realized it was better to withdraw that particular information entirely - as it was possible Saxton might have been born in late 1974. {{user|Pieter Kuiper}} did not actually provide a source for his changes. -- ''']''' (]) 22:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | ; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | ||
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. --> | |||
===Discussion concerning Pieter Kuiper=== | |||
====Statement by Pieter Kuiper==== | |||
What? I have not hounded Cirt in general, I have only tried to counter his pushing of ] as a Scientiology big shot. Which he was not, he was just a kid when he joined, and left the "elite" a few years later at 21. I do not know what I am supposed to write here. Do I need a lawyer? | |||
Cirt is clearly an expert at wikilawyering. He has been throwing the Book of Misplaced Pages Rules at me, and leaving "warning" at my user page from the beginning. In order to prepare this kind of denunciation. Or to try to tick me off and report me for incivility. But as can be seen in the history of ], it was Cirt who invented a year of birth, which was of by a year. Yet he put this year in a fact box, with a reference. Clearly inventing false factoids like this is against BLP policies. It was a serious error, which could have had serious consequences for the subject. So I changed it. But Cirt stubbornly reintroduced his false fact. | |||
So I want to report Cirt for breaking the rules on BLP. I see that he is an admin: he should be desysopped. /] (]) 19:03, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Response: This "court" is biased in favor of rule-book waving admins. Why are you warning me for having corrected false factoids in the "doubly sensitive area of BLP and Scientology"? Cirt did not have his facts straight. ] allows calculating age from birth dates, it does not allow guessing a year of birth from vague information in a news report. If all these high-ranking officials say that such a thing is routine on enwp, this place is in real trouble. The warning is grossly unfair, instead I should be thanked for having spotted this. As to collegiality, constructiveness, AGF and friendliness, it is also Cirt who is displaying problematic behaviour: when I had corrected the false birth year, cirt did not ask me to explain why I thought that he was wrong. He just reverted, not only that, but he wrote a , accusing me of defamation, threatening to report me here, and to block me. | |||
:So where does one appeal? /] (]) 07:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning Pieter Kuiper ==== | |||
=====Comments by Sandstein===== | |||
Initial comment prior to any reply by Pieter Kuiper: Sanctions under ] are not allowed as long as the request does not include a diff of a warning of the sort required by the cited remedy. All that could conceivably result from this request, therefore, is such a warning. (A block for disruption under normal admin authority does not appear to be immediately necessary on the basis of the provided evidence.) <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 16:46, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
I am limiting my review to the five diffs provided by Cirt and the explanations given by Cirt why he considers them problematic. Questions: | |||
* : To both: What text in the supports either 1974 or 1975 as the year of birth? | |||
* , and : To Pieter Kuiper: The reads: "The cited Aaron Saxton, who rose to a senior level in the Sea Org ..." In view of this, why did you undid Cirt's addition twice with the edit summaries "Saxton was not a senior official" and "Saxton being "senior" at 21 would need a much better source"? | |||
*: To Pieter Kuiper: Please explain your reason for this edit. | |||
I would appreciate an answer by both Cirt and Pieter Kuiper, respectively, within two hours of their next edit, or I may choose to operate under the assumption most unfavorable to them should I decide to take any administrative action as a result of this request. Thanks, <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 22:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:1) As you can see for yourself, the does not say exactly what year Saxton was born. It says the Saxton was made a guard when he was 16, which was apparently before he was sent to California in 1991. This could also be consistent with a birth date in 1973 or even earlier. I knew birth year was 1974 from subject's own statement (which Cirt himself had uploaded to Commons), but Cirt an ''"independent reliable secondary"'' source, so I did not replace the newspaper reference. | |||
:2) Your diff refers to what I explained on the talk page: "''Saxton left Sea Org when he was 21. An inflated description of an individual in the media cannot justify including him in this list with a spokesman, with the founder and his wife, and with others that Scientology itself describes as having held high rank in the organization. ... a source that deals with the organization in general.''" Cirt's newspaper source does not support that Saxton was a senior official of the Scientology church, it just says that he attained a senior level in ], which seems a very spartan kind of boot camp. A drill sergeant or something could be described as "senior level". | |||
:3) I looked at what linked to the Aaron Saxton article, I noticed the DYK nomination, which had the most boring hook. So I voted against. Anything wrong with that? /] (]) 23:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
=====Comments by Durova===== | |||
===Discussion concerning Callmehelper=== | |||
Re: Sandstein, this topic is also covered by ] which ] for administrator action. Pieter Kuiper has been wikihounding Cirt recently. The only edit that Pieter Kuiper has ever made at the "Did you know" process was yesterday when Pieter attempted an out of process rejection of Cirt's most recent submission about Scientology although the article clearly qualified for DYK. Pieter has followed Cirt to several Scientology articles where Pieter has been obstructing Cirt's work, mainly by Pieter's introducing ageist original research, and Pieter has removed reliably referenced information while referring to an adult BLP subject as a "kid". Cirt has done nothing to provoke this person. This looks like a reasonable attempt on Cirt's part to clear the air. The subject of Scientology has been through four arbitrations; we don't need someone who pursues vendettas or picks fights. A formal warning may prevent this problem from spreading. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 17:45, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
:It's disappointing to see the aggressive statement from Pieter Kuiper. The "false factoids" incident Pieter refers to is another incident of Pieter Wikihounding Cirt. Per ], Cirt had calculated the birth year of ] based upon a statement of subject's age. Pieter followed Cirt to the article and altered the birth year without providing a new source. Shortly afterward Pieter started a talk page thread to accuse Cirt of policy violation. Ten minutes after the thread started Cirt cooperated, but Pieter refused to provide sources: instead he told Cirt "Google, and thou shalt find." The underlying issue was whether the BLP subject had been born in 1975 or 1974: if Pieter continues to make bones of contention over things that are so minor, that could upend the delicate equilibrium the Scientology topic has maintained for the last ten months. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 19:22, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::To Pieter: your statement appears to be asserting that Cirt deserves to be desysopped because of a single routine calculation that he withdrew ten minutes after you complained about it. No actual harm was caused by briefly posting a birth year as 1975 instead of 1974; it's the kind of thing that normally clears up in five minutes of editorial discussion. Can you see how your refusal to provide a source could appear to be vandalism at first, and afterward gives the impression of itching for a fight? Scientology is a sensitive subject that reenters arbitration at en:wiki almost on a yearly basis. Cirt has written many good articles and featured articles that have helped to stabilize the area. More good faith would go a long way. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 23:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::If Cirt and you regard guessing someone's year of birth from rather vague information in a newspaper article as routine, both of you have serious problems with ]. If I had not insisted, the false information would still be there. Cirt was not asking, but demanded "''independent reliable secondary''" sources, which I did not have. He just clung to his own guesses, and he still seems to regard them as justified. It is beyond me how one can think that the date of the news report enters the "routine calculation". /] (]) 23:39, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::Please move the comment to your own section, Pieter. The way this transpired could have been handled a lot better. Cirt agreed with you and withdrew his assertion ten minutes after you explained a problem with it. It is customary to provide sources when one makes a change to a BLP article; do you see how it caused difficulties to withhold that source and accuse the other editor of bad faith when he attempted to engage you in dialog? After you followed him to several other articles that left him with little choice other than AE. Let's work this out with a handshake. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 00:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
==== |
====Statement by Callmehelper==== | ||
This is my side ; | |||
I became aware of ] through his ]y behaviour at AfD and DYK in my home area of Australian politics. When I looked into it, it seemed to be a more broadly consistent pattern of following ] around on topics in any way connected with or related to Scientology. Many of the other issues re DOB of Aaron Saxton are red herrings; Pieter did not deal with this matter in good faith and seemed more interested in undermining the other user (it could simply have been added with a source to the article, without the need for all the rest). This sort of stuff happens (without the attending drama) all the time in my project due to inconsistent information supplied about elected state politicians by state governments, and nobody's ever terribly worried about being proven wrong by a better source (much less being desysopped!!). Cirt has neither provoked these actions, nor responded in kind. I am in agreement with Durova that a formal warning, with sanctions following if the user continues the conduct, would be a suitable resolution to this matter. ] 01:19, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
# '''1 Allegation''' : Yes, it was indeed a copyright violation. This was my first encounter to something like copyright violation. Which i just copy-paste of a paragraph from govt website. Then one senior editor tell me in my talk page about what copyright violation is and how that works, and it was my very healthy and learning session for me tbh. Please see the whole discussion, then it will exhibit a full picture. First conversion happened in my talk page then little more conversations happened in his talk page And ultimately matter solved and i learnt by this conversations and after that i never did anything like copyright violation. I don't know why this issue is used here against me. | |||
<br> | |||
# '''2nd Allegation''' : This is little complex and long problem. Although i explain it very deeply during AN/I. But i will cut it short. It was started very much before. '''Firstly someone tag me about this vandalism by saying that one editor try to manipulate some paragraph in that page then i got involved in this. I restored that paragraph but it was reverted by again that guy and it keep going for sometime, then i told them in his talk page but he just delete that talk without replying, then i go for article talk page and write all that issue but no one replied, then i go to two administrator personal talk page, one was busy and one told me that i should go for AN/I but here also i got no reply for 2 days. after all that someone replied that i should go for main article talk page, which i was already did. this was disappointing for me as i feel in a loop as in talk page no one replied. so i replied very rudely but it was more of a frustration for 4 days. But nevertheless, I apologise to that editor and that senior editor named Lez who told me about my rudeness, in next reply. Moreover i also apologise to that editor in his talk page on | |||
<br> | |||
# 3 Allegations : It was related to 2nd allegation. It was indeed a Vandalism, because after discussion done in that talk page that editor was again removing all this , so i had to go to his talk page and said about this is Vandalism pls stop doing it but again that guy deleted my vandalism warning without replying to me , But ultimately that editor stopped doing vandalism in that page and it then remains restored after so my efforts for continuous 5 days.<br> But i don't know how that respected complainer think that this is not vandalism? IT WAS VANDALISM. <br> | |||
# '''4th & 5th Allegations''' : I am not aware about WP:Stick. Simply I make a draft and leave a (template submit) in my draft and then it goes for discussion. After so much long long conversations, it was finalized that the draft is still not acceptable as it lack Notability and i ultimately accept that and this conversation end in very light way. <br> | |||
===Result concerning Pieter Kuiper=== | |||
'''My Conclusion''': I whenever make any statement in uncivil manner i never ever leave as it is without my apology. i apologise to those whenever i feel that i replied them in uncivil way. <br> As i am not so english fluent, so i don't have much dictionaries of words, so ultimately some my words reflect a little rudeness, but it was never be my intention. so apologise to him immediately. <br> Although i am new , but i am sure i will be adapt myself very soon about all the policies. I also work on myself perticularly about my choice of words. <br> Those seniors who seen my choice of bad words should advice/warm me in my talk page instead of going direct complaining, as i seen such policy as , as i never ignored any type of warning/advice or suggestions. <br>This was my side. <br>I will accept any kind of warning or ban after all.<br> Thanks.<br> Much Regards. | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
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====Statement by (username)==== | |||
Thank you for the replies, Cirt and Peter Kuiper. My assessment of the request is broadly similar to that of Durova and Orderinchaos. People may in good faith disagree whether one should qualify this person as a "senior official" in this "SeaOrg", or how (if at all) one should extrapolate his age from the information in the source at issue. But Pieter Kuiper chose to pursue this disagreement in a needlessly aggressive fashion: by reverting Cirt twice, asking on the talk page, following Cirt to DYK to "vote" (meaninglessly, as ] is not a vote) against the article being featured there, calling for Cirt's desysop here (which is entirely ridiculous) and generally giving the impression of having the main aim of entering into conflict with Cirt rather than resolving the content disagreement in a collegial, friendly and ] manner. As we know, this mode of editing is unfortunately not uncommon on Misplaced Pages. That does not make it acceptable, especially in the doubly sensitive fields of BLP and Scientology. For this reason I am '''warning Pieter Kuiper''' to stop editing Scientology subjects in anything but a collegial, friendly and constructive manner (as would be expected, e.g., among real-world co-workers) consistent with ], or he may be made subject to sanctions under ] and/or ]. As to Cirt, I do not see a need for a warning or sanction on the basis of this discussion, as he correctly the calculated date of birth (whose initial inclusion ]) after Pieter Kuiper contested it. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 05:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning Callmehelper=== | |||
:In reply to Pieter Kuiper, warnings are not sanctions and as such not subject to appeal, but you may appeal any sanction (such as blocks or topic bans) that may be imposed upon you in the future as provided for in the relevant arbitration remedies. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 08:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
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שלומית ליר
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning שלומית ליר
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Smallangryplanet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- שלומית ליר (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBPIA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation of how these edits violate it
ShlomitLir (שלומית ליר) created their account back in 2014. The breakdown of their edits is as follows:
- 2014 to 2016: no edits.
- 2017 to 2019: 1 edit per year. None related to PIA.
- 2022: 7 edits. Mostly in their userspace.
- 2023: 21 edits. Again, mostly in their userspace. Made two edits in the talk page of Palestinian genocide accusation complaining about its content and calling it “blatant pro-Hamas propaganda”.
- 2024: Started editing after a 10 month break at the end of October.
- Made 51 edits in October and 81 edits in November (copyedits, adding links, minor edits).
- In December, that number rose up to almost 400, including 116 in December 6 alone and 98 in December 7. Became ECR that day.
- Immediately switched to editing in PIA, namely in the Battle of Sderot article where they changed the infobox picture with an unclear image with a dubious caption, and removed a template without providing a reason why.
- They also edited the Use of human shields by Hamas article, adding another image with a caption not supported by the source (replaced by yet another image with a contextless caption when the previous image was removed) and WP:UNDUE content in the lead.
- they also voted in the second AfD for Calls for the destruction of Israel despite never having interacted with that article or its previous AfD. They have barely surpassed 500 edits, but the gaming is obvious, highlighted by the sudden switch to editing in PIA.
More importantly, there's the issue of POV pushing. I came across this article authored by them on Ynet, once again complaining about what they perceive as an anti Israeli bias on Misplaced Pages. They have also authored a report for the World Jewish Congress covering the same topic. The report can be seen in full here. I think that someone with this clear POV agenda shouldn't be near the topic.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 2023-04-05 and re-iterated on 2024-11-25 (see the system log linked to above).
- Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on 2024-12-18 by Femke (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Adding some additional comments on 2025-01-16: On top of POV issues, the user has a number of tweets that appear to be a clear admission of gaming, implicit canvassing, creating and sharing lists of potential "most biased articles", and clearly calling for specific edits. They've also been cited as coordinating an off-wiki coordination hub for editing Misplaced Pages. If this - combined with the tweets, the forms, the op-ed and the report to the WJC, all under this user's name (that they also use to edit Misplaced Pages - this is not outing) isn't a clear cut case of canvassing, I don't know what is. Smallangryplanet (talk) 20:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Adding some more comments on 2025-01-22: The user in question says that they have been on[REDACTED] for years – and so surely aware of what does and does not count as canvassing. As recently as last month they were advising users on Hebrew Misplaced Pages as to how best to get their edit counts up, as well as promoting the "most biased articles" survey I've already mentioned. I understand that we are always meant to WP:AGF, but we are looking at a situation in which a user (1) has extensive experience with Misplaced Pages and (2) is encouraging people, subtly and not so subtly to do things that are against our policies. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Notification diff
Discussion concerning שלומית ליר
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by שלומית ליר
I believe contents of this filing to be in clear policy violation and have reached out to the arbitration committee for further clarification before commenting further.שלומית ליר (talk) 14:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was given clarification from an admin regarding my concerns and will now be drafting a response. Thank you for your patience. שלומית ליר (talk) 21:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
First and foremost, I value accuracy and transparency and am fully prepared to address any verified errors or missteps. My contributions are made in good faith, with only the intention of supporting Misplaced Pages’s mission. I am a veteran editor on Hebrew wiki, yet am learning to appreciate the sometimes stark differences in rules in this section, so am doing my very best to keep up to speed and abide fully as I edit further here.
As a longtime editor on another wiki who finally decided this year to match pace on English wiki, I strenuously reject any accusations of EC gaming when a passing glance on my global log will confirm I have not radically altered my editing pace nor article focus. In regards to NPOV concerns, I will defer to the numerous comments below affirming that there is no policy violation by having an opinion, onsite or off, and must register mild complaint that NPOV accusations are being leveled here without any policy violation having been affirmed on any of these individual contributions.
While contributions observed superficially (and without clear context of edit conversation and interaction with other editors) may appear to be agenda oriented, if I were granted more word counts, I would happily highlight the context of most edits made to make clear I was pushing back against previous bias efforts (past and present) by editors (including a number on the precipice of sanction in PIA5). Perhaps it would have been wiser to report what I felt was POV editing behavior instead of pushing back, but I only believed my efforts were to restore and preserve article balance, not disrupt it.
I am grateful for the admin guidance received so far and appreciate being better informed about certain grey areas. I meant no intention to remotely approach anything resembling canvassing and believed the commentary was allowable (most especially since it was on a proceeding I was neither participating in, nor linking out to). I understand now that this may be perceived as “call to action” which was not remotely the intent, most especially to an audience that is mostly academic and, to the best of my knowledge, does not edit Misplaced Pages. (I also humbly must point out that no report was made indicating any increase in activity to suggest editors had been canvassed). I have now been well appraised and will take great care and caution to ensure no further off-site commentary remotely approaches such this territory of concern. If there are any questions or doubts in the future, I will seek future guidance from admins before venturing into potentially questionable territory. שלומית ליר (talk) 01:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Thebiguglyalien
This is the first ARBPIA report since the proposed decision was posted at ARBPIA5 and it's specifically a matter of POV pushing, responding admins should be aware of the "AE topic bans" remedy. The committee is discussing whether to implement a remedy stating that admins at AE are "empowered and encouraged to consider a topic ban" purely for biased editing. So far, the argument against is that it's redundant because AE admins are already supposed to do this. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-03-29/Special_report
Statement by Selfstudier
To the extent that it is relevant, the WJC report was discussed at Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-03-29/Special report. Selfstudier (talk) 11:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by starship.paint (2)
I would to like to raise this 9 December 2024 edit at Battle of Sderot, where there had been an existing unsourced paragraph (On the morning of October 7, a tour minibus...
) that שלומית ליר added a reference to (archive 1 / archive 2) from the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation. The reference is relevant, but I believe it may not verify every detail in the Battle of Sderot paragraph (e.g. "Netivot", "Holocaust survivors"). The reference contains a short paragraph of text and a video that is 4:21 long. I can't watch the video in the reference, but I believe it is this same YouTube video that is 4:20 long which contains the same screenshot as the reference, on the same topic. Most of the video is an interview of the daughter of a dead victim who was on the bus (the daughter had been on the phone with the victim), except for 1:58 to 2:13 which appears to be a quote from the bus driver. The publisher themselves do not have too much reporting in their own voice (on the video), yet this reference was used to cite a paragraph entirely stated in Wikivoice. No attribution was made to the relative or the bus driver, or to the publisher. I can't be totally sure though, due to unfamiliarity with Hebrew. starship.paint (talk / cont) 13:53, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by xDanielx
@Arcticocean: I don't really see how NPOV can be read as requiring edits which support both sides of a controversy. Our content policies don't impose any positive duties; they only tell us what not to do. The text of the policy doesn't support the notion that a pattern of edits could be in violation, even if no particular edit is in violation.
In principle, such a pattern of edits could violate the UCoC policy, but I don't believe this board has ever enforced it. If it were to be enforced, I think it should be for more serious violations like the double standards that e.g. this attempted to demonstrate, rather than mere opinion-driven editing which applies to the vast majority of CTOP editors. — xDanielx /C\ 03:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Hemiauchenia
This user has engaged in off-wiki canvassing regarding the IP conflict. Take the following recent tweet from the 12 January permanent archive
For posterity in case it is deleted it contains the following remarks:
If you can't handle the facts, just delete them Propaganda on @Misplaced Pages includes targeting Israel, demonizing it, and erasing inconvenient truths, from falsifying war outcomes to deleting Israeli inventions and attempting to erase the reality of Palestinian suicide bombers.
Along with this is a screenshot of the current AfD Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Palestinian suicide attacks. People are of course allowed to be caustic about Misplaced Pages off-wiki, but calling out a specific AfD with highly charged rhetoric, essentially inciting canvassing seems out of line. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- For those concerned that this might be outing, שלומית ליר is very open about their real life identity on their userpage. See (archived). If you reveal your real identity on Misplaced Pages, your tweets about Misplaced Pages on your Twitter account connected to your real-life identity are fair game to mention. There's also reverse confirmation in this tweet . Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Cdjp1
As we seem to be ok to pull evidence from the statements of the editor in question, they have also commented more recently about running interference on Misplaced Pages (archive) in response to a question of if Misplaced Pages can be "saved". -- Cdjp1 (talk) 23:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoyland
It has been several days. Perhaps שלומית ליר could clarify whether their belief about the way Misplaced Pages works turned out to be a true belief or a false belief so that this report can progress. Sean.hoyland (talk) 09:07, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
I am interested in the Google form cited above, specifically how this differs from the widely reported situation that resulted in the 'Off-wiki misconduct in Palestine–Israel topic area' case that employed Discord (and/or X, I forget) rather than a Google form. Is a consistent decision procedure being used to distinguish between encouraging participation and canvassing/meatpuppetry? I think a lot of people don't know where the line is, assuming there is a line, or at least some kind of fuzzy decision boundary. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:46, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Vice regent
I'm satisfied by שלומית ליר's above explanation regarding canvassing. People with bad canvassing intentions don't reveal their identity. VR (Please ping on reply) 04:19, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning שלומית ליר
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Users are allowed to have a POV - it's a rare user indeed who edits a contentious topic without having some strong opinions about it. For conduct to be actionable at AE it needs to be an actual policy violation. The misleading use of images doesn't rise to the level of AE action in my view, and judging whether an addition like this is UNDUE is not within AE's purview, as long as it is supported by the source. Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The off-wiki canvassing is a problem. It merits a warning at least, I don't know if the formality thereof matters. If there was evidence that שלומית ליר was aware of WP:CANVAS I would consider something more stringent. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I understand Vanamonde93's concerns, I think that we are required to assess the totality of the user's contributions. Contentious topic editors are required to uphold NPOV. Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics#Guidance for editors places an obligation to Within contentious topics,… edit carefully and constructively… and… adhere to the purposes of Misplaced Pages. The linked page provides that Misplaced Pages is written from a neutral point of view… We strive for articles with an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight for their prominence. If an editor is only adding content that significantly favours one or the other side to the conflict, this is incompatible with their contentious topic obligation. That is because an editor making only one-sided edits will simply not be taking the necessary steps to ensure that the whole article is written from a neutral point of view. As their number of one-sided edits increases, the likelihood decreases that the editor is ensuring our content is neutral and impartial. Once we reach the point of being sure that they are not attempting to ensure neutrality of content, we can conclude the editor is not meeting their contentious topics obligations and we can issue a sanction. This can only be assessed with hindsight and by looking at the editor's contributions as a whole. arcticocean ■ 20:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed at 17:33, 8 December 2024, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict:
- Adding a citation for a claim that Hamas terrorists shot dead a group of Israeli tourists.
- Replacing map with a photograph of victims of violence.
- Removing an outdated maintenance tag which was perhaps casting doubt on the relevant section, Massacre of pensioners, and again.
- Adding specification to claims of the use of human shield (specifying who has made the claims), therefore giving greater weight to the claims, in a context where the claims were already described at considerable length; adding another reference to that claim; and adding another.
- Adding an image contentiously captioned 'Weapons Found in a Mosque', then again Rockets hidden at a house, both to the first line of the article.
- Adding, without sufficient context, an assertion that a philosopher has determined that one side of the conflict is culpable and expanding other coverage of culpability of that side.
- On the talk pages, there has been a tinge of failure to AGF although I would be prepared to look past that (it was like meeting like). I am skipping a few further and insignificant talk page comments.
- There are then edits to LGBTQ rights in the State of Palestine: inserting a reference to execution into the first sentence of the lead; adding more references to news coverage of executions of LGBT+ people by the other side of the conflict. At Houthi movement, there is then an expansion, again of the article lead, to add references to terrorist attacks (with follow-up).
- Assessing the edits as a whole, it is difficult not to conclude that the respondent user is failing to meet their contentious topics obligation to edit neutrally in this topic area. As the number of edits is so far limited, if a sanction is imposed, it could justifiably be light-touch. arcticocean ■ 20:34, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- @XDanielx: Thanks for commenting. Most of the edits do not have a neutral, encyclopedic POV. There is an effort to influence our articles away from neutrally describing the subject without taking sides, contrary to WP:NPOV. Even if each edit in isolation is insufficient for sanctioning, taken as a whole the edits show an inability or unwillingness to edit neutrally. One non-neutral edit shouldn't be sanctioned; twenty is a different story. This is not about the percentage of biased edits but about the weight or amount of them. Therefore, the assessment wouldn't really change even had the editor made some 'neutral' edits along the way. I'm happy to concede that editors cannot be compelled to balance edits of one bias with edits of another, but I don't think that comes into it. In a nutshell, this is about Misplaced Pages:Advocacy. arcticocean ■ 08:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed at 17:33, 8 December 2024, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict:
- The offwiki canvassing is a problem...שלומית ליר, you're fairly inexperienced here. Were you aware WP:canvassing is not allowed? Valereee (talk) 12:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- For transparency, שלומית ליר reached out to me, and I explained multiple policy and advised her to go ahead and respond here without waiting for individual feedback from her email to arbcom, which may or may not happen. Valereee (talk) 22:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I take it that per Barkeep49's brief oversighting of potentially-sensitive content in this report (Special:Diff/1269845558), and then restoration of the same (Special:Diff/1269848988), concerns of outing have been investigated and the report can proceed on its merits? signed, Rosguill 19:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's correct. I got a request, I didn't really feel it was OUTING, but as I indicated in my edit summary OS is a tool of first resort. I consulted with the OS listserv and received some responses quickly agreeing with me and so I unsuppressed and restored the material. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's not for AE to decide content disputes, and that's mostly what this looks like. We can handle things like flagrant misrepresentation of sources, but how best to represent them is a matter for consensus discussion, not us to decide here. The canvassing was a cause for concern, but it looks like it was rather unintended and had little if any actual effect, and they've agreed to stop that going forward. (Note that doesn't mean anyone must stop criticizing Misplaced Pages or what happens on it; do all of that you like. Just don't encourage people to take particular actions based on that.) I don't see any further action as necessary at this point. Seraphimblade 16:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not satisfied with שלומית ליר's please of good faith. I think that the call for "interference" on Twitter (not even a week ago!) is a real concern in light of the standards being established by PIA5. I'm also concerned about the timeline of their knowledge of relevant CTOP sanctions. They were warned about PIA in April 2023 (by me, apparently). They should have been familiar with canvassing rules from the moment they got that warning to be on their best behavior. Not only that, but perusing their edit history, I see that there are several edits that are PIA violations prior to reaching XC on December 8 (e.g. Special:Diff/1256599528, although there's clearly many others in their edit history). In sum, I see no reason to believe the narrative of good faith presented here by them in light of the available evidence and do believe that we should consider at the minimum a logged warning. signed, Rosguill 20:15, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would be okay with a logged warning for canvassing, which remains the most concerning behavior to me. I find it difficult to see my way to penalizing violations of the XC restriction after the editor has already reached XC status without a clear finding of gaming XC status, and I don't see that here. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:41, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call it gaming, I think it's a pattern of intentional defiance of community rules, which in turn makes the otherwise rather exemplary defense written here by them less than convincing. signed, Rosguill 21:15, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would be okay with a logged warning for canvassing, which remains the most concerning behavior to me. I find it difficult to see my way to penalizing violations of the XC restriction after the editor has already reached XC status without a clear finding of gaming XC status, and I don't see that here. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:41, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Luganchanka
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Luganchanka
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Hemiauchenia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Luganchanka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 19:55, 12 January 2025 Reversion to version of article where the article says "He is a child sex offender" in the second sentence despite consensus at BLPN discussion that this is problematic because Ritter never actually interacted with a real child.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
18:28, 12 January 2025 BLP CTOP warning given
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
At BLPN, there has been consensus that the version of the article describing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the second sentence of the article is problematic, as he did not actually have sexual contact with a child, only a police officer impersonating one. Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Scott_Ritter_Biography_-_Noncompliance_with_MOS_and_BLP_Guidelines. Luganchanka has been persistently edit warring against this apparent consensus. For which he has been warned by @NatGertler: , which he subequently blanked There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article going back to at least August Talk:Scott_Ritter#First_sentence, but Luganchanka persistently cites a "consensus" for its inclusion that as far as I can tell does not seem to exist, with Luganchanka aggressively editing to enforce its inclusion. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka's response is disingenuous and misleading. Look at the Talk:Scott_Ritter#First_sentence discussion I linked above. Nobody other than Luganchanka thinks that Ritter should be described as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article. The dispute isn't about whether or not the convictions should be mentioned in the lead at all or not, it's specifically about the use of the phrase "child sex offender", and there is no consensus to include that as far as I can tell, despite Luganchanka's vociferous claims to the contrary. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Luganchanka
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Luganchanka
The intro on the Scott Ritter page had remained largely the same for several months, as you will see on the talkpage it is an intro approved, and reverted to, by multiple senior editors. There has been a recent flurry of activity / edits. While I WP: assume good faith, it does look like those edits are attempting to downplay / whitewash Ritter's sexual offence conviction(s). I have not been 'aggressive' at all, rather I have simply referred contentious edits to the talkpage to build consensus, attempting to do my duty as a good Misplaced Pages editor.Luganchanka (talk) 20:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Please see the Talk:Scott_Ritter, where there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior[REDACTED] editors, that Ritter's sexual offence conviction should be included in the lead to the article. My edits have simply been aimed at ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article.Luganchanka (talk) 20:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you to @Valereee and @Red-tailed hawk for your feedback. If you see the Talk:Scott_Ritter, discussions -
14 August - Vandalism by removing all reference entirely to Ritter being a "Convicted Sex Offender"
andFirst sentence
. The latter discussion ended on 26th September, and resulted in the intro we had until a flurry of edits the other day, trying to move information on Ritter's sexual offence conviction, downplay it, whitewash it etc. My edits were aimed at restoring the edit reached by consensus, which had been in place for several months until the recent raft of edits with the clear aim of moving / downplaying Ritter's sexual offence conviction.Luganchanka (talk) 06:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for this (nest), I really do appreciate your feedback and advice here!!Luganchanka (talk) 16:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC) (moved from admin-only section — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC))
- As per Rosguill's comments:
"Unfazed by "Emily's" age, Ritter asked "Emily," "you want to see it finish?" Ritter then turned on the webcam and ejaculated in front of the camera for "Emily." Detective Venneman then notified Ritter of his undercover status and the undercover operation and directed Ritter to call the police station."
https://casetext.com/case/ritter-v-tuttle
Luganchanka (talk) 18:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by NatGertler
Editor's edits today focused on trying to main a negative descriptor of what subject believed, despite it not being in the three sources that were listed (nor in the old version they ultimately reverted to.) Efforts were first trying to simply restate the claim, then trying to source it to an opinion piece (problem) from the Washington Examiner (also a bit of a problem, per WP:RSP), then trying to state as a fact what had merely been stated in a non-prime article as an accusation. BLP concern was pointed out repeatedly via edit summary and on Talk page. Removal of unsourced contentious BLP claims and even false claims is not "whitewashing" despite how editor wishes to depict it, it is in accord with our practices. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Luganchanka
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @Luganchanka: whether you're correct or not, you were edit warring. I believe an indef block from the article and/or a temporary site block would be an appropriate sanction here. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've blocked the user for 48h for violating 3RR based on the report at WP:AN3.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:56, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka, edit-warring to remove negative content at a BLP is an exemption to 3RR. I see that NatGertler mentioned this in their edit summaries and at talk. As voorts points out, it doesn't matter whether you're right when you're reverting an edit that is being claimed as an exemption, even if you believe Rosguillwhiyou are "ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article". The solution is to go to talk, discuss, and get consensus. If you'd like to respond, ping me to your response at your talk and I'll post it here. Valereee (talk) 16:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka, if you really believe those two sections -- senior editors, indeed, this one was between someone with 13 edits and somcoen who wasn't ECR, for heaven's sake -- somehow prove consensus was strong, and you think that means you can ignore all the later ones -- at one of which you didn't even respond to a ping, where people were objecting -- then this is maybe looking like a WP:CIR issue.
- But even if you had been somehow editing to support a consensus you believed was settled, you cannot edit-war contentious material into a BLP when others are objecting to it. The solution, always, is to go to talk, discuss, and reconfirm consensus. There is zero urgency to have this information in the article. Including something negative in a BLP is not something you should ever edit war over. Valereee (talk) 18:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka's reading of the state of consensus on the talk page as supporting their edits is so far off base that it borders on being a CIR issue if it's sincere. Indef block from Scott Ritter seems appropriate. signed, Rosguill 22:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to WP:FORUMSHOP isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., that would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of
whitewash
before writing this off as time-served. signed, Rosguill 15:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. signed, Rosguill 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make Special:Diff/1269831044. The cited BBC source does not state
masturbated and ejaculated on camera
, saying onlygraphic sex act
. As written, this is essentially another BLP violation, building a case that a ban from this topic is needed. signed, Rosguill 16:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by New York Post, a generally unreliable source. Luganchanka, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? signed, Rosguill 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The detail is in the record of Ritter v. Tuttle (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seeing Special:Diff/1269853673 here and Special:Diff/1269853955, Special:Diff/1269845272 at Talk:Scott Ritter, I see no comprehension of the use of primary vs. secondary sources, nor any reflection of their past errors in engaging with this topic. I believe that a block from the page is needed to prevent further BLP violations as they have shown no understanding of the relevant policies even after being given several warnings, reminders and opportunities to revise their position. signed, Rosguill 18:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka:
- WP:BLPPRIMARY calls upon users to
not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person
. There are some narrow exceptions (whenprimary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source
), but adding material to the article not found in reliable secondary sources is... suboptimal at best under our biographies of living persons policy. - — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- The detail is in the record of Ritter v. Tuttle (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by New York Post, a generally unreliable source. Luganchanka, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? signed, Rosguill 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make Special:Diff/1269831044. The cited BBC source does not state
- Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. signed, Rosguill 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to WP:FORUMSHOP isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., that would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of
- @Luganchanka: Would you please provide a direct link to the talk page section you are referring to when you say
there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior[REDACTED] editors
regarding the lead? — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 01:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- @Luganchanka and Hemiauchenia:
- It does seem that the discussion at Talk:Scott Ritter#First sentence does indicate some support for that language i.e. (
convicted child sex offender
) in the lead, with some general lean against putting it in the first sentence. So, whileThere has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences
is true if it means the literal first sentence, I do see a rough consensus to include the material in the lead section in some way in that discussion. - That being said, the BLPN discussion had a bit of different tone and tenor from the discussion on the talk page. There was notification about a BLPN discussion on the article's talk page, but Luganchanka, despite having been pretty vocal about this subject in the past, hadn't participated in that BLPN discussion. They instead grounded their edits in the argument that the article's talk page had consensus for the current content, and nothing on the article's talk page had changed that consensus. And that much was true. In any case, we've got
two different forums with two different answerstwo different forums with two different answers here, which appears to be what's leading to the whole kerfluffle. - Then the analysis comes to whether or not the label is a straightforward BLP violation, requiring us to read the sourcing in the article. This NY Times piece, which is cited in the body of the article (but not the lead), does state that Ritter
was convicted unlawful contact with minors and other charges
in the state of PA (the PA statute is here; "unlawful contact with minors" is the verbatim name of the crime). When dealing with a sting operation, PA treats it asan offense of the same grade and degree
as if the criminal had actually contacted a child (unless it's a lesser crime than a third-degree felony, in which case it becomes a third-degree felony). This is an extremely common practice in the United States (there are lots of philosophical questions regarding mens rea and actus reus here, but that's not really relevant here). In any case, labeling this to be a child sex offense (or, alternatively, to simply use the name of the crime in the article) does not appear to be straightforward malice/POV-pushing/libel, and a reasonably informed individual might shorten it in this way. Whether or not that is wise or optimal to shorten it is the proper subject for content discussion. - Aside from the edit warring (which was not acceptable, and was aptly handled by a block), this looks like a content dispute. A heated one involving a living person, sure, but a content dispute nonetheless. I see good-faith—albeit passionate—disagreement. If the editors were to come together and engage in one forum (such as the article's talk page, where this has been discussed a bunch), rather than splitting the discussion over multiple pages, I feel like we might have our best shot at attaining a consensus going forward.
- In short, it looks like the conversation fragmented, and consensus-building broke down. Edit warring ensued, which was bad, but we've already blocked for that in order to dissuade it going forward. A Request for Comment on the article's talk page for what the lead should look like is probably the best way to go forward here.
- — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- RTH, are you objecting to a p-block from the article? Valereee (talk) 13:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ping to @Red-tailed hawk Valereee (talk) 18:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- RTH, are you objecting to a p-block from the article? Valereee (talk) 13:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka has been blocked for a week by User:ScottishFinnishRadish for BLP violations and personal attacks. Liz 18:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting that this was a regular admin action and I wasn't aware this was before AE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:42, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- With this in mind, I think we should wait to hear from RTH but otherwise expect to move forward to an indef p-block on top of SFR's stopgap action, as we haven't seen anything coming close to an adequate recognition of the relevant policies and practices from Luganchanka and after several second chances and nudges, I don't see reason to expect them to change course. signed, Rosguill 18:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting that this was a regular admin action and I wasn't aware this was before AE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:42, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
BabbleOnto
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning BabbleOnto
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- ජපස (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- BabbleOnto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/COVID-19#Contentious_topic_designation
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 11 January 2025 Sealioning
- 11 January 2025 Refusal to get the message
- 11 January 2025 Personalizing an argument.
- 11 January 2025 Railroading the discussion.
This is all after I warned them about WP:AE sanctions, and they dismissed my warning out of hand. Very nearly a WP:SPA on the subject. I see no reason to continue tolerating this kind of obstinate tendetiousness. Additional diffs available on request from admins, but looking at the user history should suffice to indicate the problem is obvious, I hope.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 9 Dec 2024 (see the system log linked to above).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This is a WP:SPA with respect to the topic and their disruption surrounding it has been subject to at least one WP:FTN thread that remains active: Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Gain_of_function_research. The hope was that they would WP:DROPTHESTICK and move on from this, but it seems they either will not or cannot. jps (talk) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning BabbleOnto
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by BabbleOnto
I would first like to begin by point out the person filing this complaint is involved in the content disputes at issue. They have frequently left "warnings" which read more like threats on my talk page and others' talk pages for people who disagree with them. Nor would I be the first person who would they would get banned from this topic for disagreeing with them.
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm being charged with doing.
I think in general the user is alleging I've been uncivil, unhelpful, and, in their words, obstinate and tendentious. I know when someone disagrees with you it may feel like they're getting in your way and acting in bad-faith, but that's not always true. I've never tried to be disruptive or uncivil. I've admitted when I was wrong, I've dropped arguments that were clarified to be wrong, I've tried to find compromise, at times begging people to provide their sources and work together. And when those editors refused to, I didn't provoke any further.
I now address the specific edits in the complaint:
1. I don't see how this is sea-lioning. The user misquoted the article. I pointed out the misquotation, then addressed a accusation against me that I was second-guessing the sources (A claim which was never substantiated). I then said any source would have to support that actual claim which was in the article. I don't know what this violates.
2. I don't see how this is refusing to get the message (IDHT). The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it. I replied with what I actually said. What part of that interaction is saying "I didn't hear that?"
3. Admittedly probably the strongest of the four allegations. I'm not pretending I was perfect in all of my comments. I should have kept my criticism strictly to their argument. I ask you to read it in context and keep in mind you're viewing a hand-picked assortment of my worst edits, and this is the worst they could find. Also consider that conversation accused me of having a basic reading comprehension problem, perhaps you can see I lose my cool sometimes too.
4. I'm not even really sure what "railroading the discussion" means. Thus, to keep this section short and to save words, I don't know what I'm being accused of doing wrong here.
All of this has stemmed out of arguments over two sources. I have tried to find compromise, I have tried to negotiate, I have tried to build consensus. I've been going through the proper channels, I've been participating in the RfC, I've been discussing it on the ANI, I source every claim I make, for a month now I've been trying to constructively explain my side and defend my argument against challenges. It's incredibly frustrating to now be facing an Arbitration Enforcement on grounds that I'm not working with others. BabbleOnto (talk) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Edited. BabbleOnto (talk) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, the sub-header for this section says that only admins can edit this section, I didn't realize I was allowed to reply here.
- Yes, I will. I intend on taking an extended break from wikipedia, as well. BabbleOnto (talk) 17:06, 19 January 2025 (UTC) Moved from uninvolved admin section; you can answer questions, make comments, discuss, but all your input needs to be in your own section. Valereee (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around.
- What I meant was that I'm willing to respect the consensus and not make any further edits or argue any more contrary to what the consensus decided. It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to personally agree with the consensus, beyond just respecting it, then there's nothing I can do. I still do disagree with the consensus's result. Nonetheless, I'm not going to edit or argue further, I'll respect it as a legitimate.
- Re:
no, you don't have to agree. You just have to accept and move on.
- Then I accept the consensus. I'm not going to argue in those discussions any further, though I still personally disagree, I understand a consensus has been reached which is other than my opinion. Nor will I edit disruptively or against the consensus. I appreciate the admin who noted I largely kept my disagreement in the talk pages, not editing the articles themselves. I plan on staying away from the topic in general for quite a while.
- Re:
- Re:
BabbleOnto, do you understand what we're talking about when we describe your participation at talk pages as WP:sealioning, and why we think it's such a problem, particularly in contentious topics? Do you think you can avoid participating in that way at article talk pages?
- Yes, and yes.
- Re:
Statement by ProcrastinatingReader
I've interacted with BabbleOnto in several threads. There's a few problems, but ultimately, I think they have a certain opinion on what the article should say, and will debate endlessly to get the article changed to their position. I mean, sure, reasonable people disagree on how to interpret sources and apply policy, but I don't think BabbleOnto is actually interested in faithful application of policies to write high quality articles based on good sources.
That's not terribly problematic by itself, but most discussions with BabbleOnto are exhausting. Rather than actually trying to understand someone's argument in good faith, I think BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible, and making a superficially reasonable response ad nauseam. They reply endlessly in this manner. As well as misrepresentation of opponents' arguments, on multiple occassions BabbleOnto has either misrepresented sources or hasn't read their own sources. I can't think of a single thread where BabbleOnto didn't have the last word, or a single thread where it seemed like BabbleOnto was actually trying to understand the arguments of other editors in a charitable way. As such, I think it's very difficult to work collaborately with BabbleOnto on the lab leak theory and related articles. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Newimpartial
As the editor to whom BabbleOnto was responding in the diffs of the filing, I feel compelled to comment now that they have defended (to varying degrees) their first three diffs. I will reply as briefly as I know how to their defense of the diffs, as revised.
1. BabbleOnto is now doubling down on the claim that I misquoted the article
. I didn't "misquote" the article - I didn't quote the article, and I explained what my comment meant in the rest of the (now collapsed) thread that ends here. Also, I provided a clear explanation of why I thought they were second-guessing sources later in the thread, but BabbleOnto never responded to that explanation. They are now responding to the accusation of WP:CPUSH with pure WP:IDONTHEARTHAT.
2. On this they say, now, that The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it.
This is repeating a misreading they made in the original thread, where they mistook a statement I made about another editor's comment as if it were about theirs. In this "defense", I see no attempt to read thoughtfully what other editors say in reply to them and revise their understanding accordingly; all I see is zero-sum mentality and WP:IDHT.
3. BabbleOnto is now justifying an edit where they said to me, You have a habit of inserting small lies into everything you say
and You're not adding anything constructive. You're just refusing to explain anything and saying conclusory statements, or lying about what you said
- all this based on a misreading of what I had actually written - because I was going to refer to a basic failure in reading comprehension
two hours later. This seems like a time travel paradox.
4. They don't bother defending themselves on this one, but just to point out the actual issue with the diff, they doubled down on their accusations that I said a material lie
, and that I lied when said that quoted the article out of context. Pointing out being caught lying
and then proceeded to STRAWMAN the rest of my comment to which they were replying. If they had read my prior comment with a reasonable level of attention, they would have understood that there were no "lies", just a misunderstanding or two in each direction. But WP:IDHT again; even in responding to this filing BabbleOnto is still insisting I did things that I quite obviously didn't do.
It is exhausting to deal with this kind of quasi-CPUSH (not quite civil, but certainly push) behaviour. The Talk page in question has seen a recent influx of single-purpose or nearly single-purpose POV accounts, and in terms of editor energy, this one certainly seems not to be a net positive for Misplaced Pages as a project. Perhaps if they edited away from Covid and US politics, their track record might improve. Newimpartial (talk) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Objective3000
Just a quick aside to Valereee's aside: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn....
Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory currently has posts from 19 editors lacking the edits for extended confirmed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Valereee, this is also a problem at other CTOPs, and is likely to become more problematic. I assume due to off-Wiki forums. ECR might just produce more users gaming EC. I thought it would be useful to put your aside into the CTOP template at the top of CTOP TPs. But that assumes folks read it. Walt Kelly said something along the lines of: “If only I could write, I’d write a letter to the mayor, if only he could read." This discussion is likely better off elsewhere. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note: IntrepidContributor was just TBanned from the topic of COVID-19 and indef blocked until the accusations of off-wiki coordination made by them at ANI are retracted. Those accusations are like their suggestion made in their statement in this filing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by JoelleJay
At the very least, can we get more admin involvement on the lab leak page so trolling like this doesn't disrupt things even more? JoelleJay (talk) 07:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by IntrepidContributor
I have been observing BabbleOnto and while there are valid concerns about bludgeoning, I think the proposed sanctions are too much. His engagement in the Covid lab leak topic is driven by commitment to WP:NPOV, which our articles fail to adhere to, and he made the mistake of arguing with editors who were never going to listen (resulting in what looks like sealioning on his part). He's not only editor to raise issues in the topic and engage in good faith discussion, only to find themselves pulled to AN or AE disputes after staying out of the seasoning traps and refusing to capitulate to threats. In a parallel AN case concerning another editor in same topic, I suggest there may be possible off-wiki coordination , but it can also be on-wiki ().
One need only cross-reference names from Feb 2021 RfC, checking those that voted for labeling COVID-19 lab leak as conspiracy, with the names of complainants here. Contrast all these old timers with the steady stream of tens if not hundreds of regular editors complaining that our article fails NPOV, and see that their gentle approach doesn't work . Our chief complainant is already preparing his next case , and this might not be his first.
I suggest that administrators consider a 1 to 2 month topic ban for BabbleOnto to provide opportunity for him to correct his approach, while staying alert to the tactics of POV editors trying to draw them into content debates to influence outcomes.
IntrepidContributor (talk) 14:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by TarnishedPath
Please see this edit where BabbleOnto edited Gain of function research restoring previously reverted content and WP:POVPUSH using a shit source after they'd been told by multiple other editors in discussions here and here that the source was shit. Notably in the edit summary they wrote "Read discussion page. Manual revert. No serious challenge has been made to these changes. Methinks an admin needs to get involved...
" despite them being in a WP:1AM situation. If a clue is not gotten by the editor fast I'd suggest TBANs from both COVID and AP2 is warranted in order to cease their disruption. TarnishedPath 04:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Noting the editor's continued behaviour at Talk:Gain-of-function research. Refer to Special:Diff/1270316266. TarnishedPath 01:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by berchanhimez
This user was given no less than 4 chances on the talk page to stop talking about bans/other editors and start talking about the content. They have continued crying about how they're scared of getting banned... yet they continue blabbing about other editors getting banned for their bad behavior rather than refocusing on the content as requested. At a minimum a partial block from the talk page(s) in question is warranted, and it would be beneficial for a topic ban from the origins of COVID-19, broadly construed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Shibbolethink
I am heavily involved in this overall dispute as someone who has gone back and forth with BabbleOnto. I wanted to add that, in general, my feeling from interacting with this user is that they could be a good contributor to this site, and absolutely could follow the PAGs. They have shown an ability to be courteous . I think the issue is that in FRINGE and other contentious areas like COVID-19 origins, they have shown a tendancy to become "hot-headed" when tensions rise, and to reference an us vs them mentality (and numerous examples from others above). It seems they have also been egged-on, and made more combative from other PROFRINGE users (and probably some anti-FRINGE users as well who do admittedly WP:BITE) in that topic space (e.g. )
We are told often to use narrowest possible restriction to protect the project. In this case, I think that would be a COVID-19 origins TBAN, where most of the disruption has been. The user states they have learned what to do when consensus is against them. If they fail to show that lesson in AP2 articles more than just the 10 or so edits they've made in those articles, an AP2 TBAN would be appropriate at that time (WP:ROPE). Just my 2 cents.— Shibbolethink 22:05, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning BabbleOnto
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- BabbleOnto, please edit your statement down further to fit within the restriction. This also serves as an opportunity to rephrase your defense, which currently is not convincing at first glance. ProcrastinatingReader's description of the situation seems quite apt, particularly
BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible
, which is currently a pretty fitting description of your response to them here, given that you zeroed in on the "superficially reasonable" part and ignored the much more serious parts of the testimony. signed, Rosguill 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)- Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at Talk:Brian Thompson (businessman)/Archive 2 exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes WP:1AM. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics/American politics. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. signed, Rosguill 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Valereee in line with their follow-up response, I take Objective3000's comments as potentially a basis for community discussion rather than a call for protective action on the lab leak talk page right now. signed, Rosguill 21:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at Talk:Brian Thompson (businessman)/Archive 2 exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes WP:1AM. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics/American politics. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. signed, Rosguill 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have to agree, this looks like sealioning. BabbleOnto, you're new here, and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt about your ability to learn to collaborate. WP works on collaboration and consensus, and sometimes consensus goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. You have to be willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you. And you absolutely must not insist everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers. I've seen editors at both the Thompson and the lab leak talks tell you they don't actually owe you an answer to your satisfaction.
- Do you think you can learn to do that? Because if you don't think you can, this may not be the right hobby for you.
- As an aside, I'm going to recommend what I always recommend to new editors who end up here: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn. Go edit in noncontentious topics, where other editors are a lot less exhausted and have the energy to be more patient with new editors. Valereee (talk) 18:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Tangential |
---|
|
- BabbleOnto, are you planning to answer my questions above? Do you think you're able/willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you? Are you able/willing to stop insisting everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers? Valereee (talk) 13:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- BabbleOnto's response understanding this as a suggestion to take a break from Misplaced Pages as a whole isn't quite what I was hoping to see. signed, Rosguill 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @BabbleOnto, an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around.
- @Rosguill, I'd support a tban, but is AP2 enough? It seems like COVID and fringe science need to be included? Valereee (talk) 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- AP2 + COVID? I see the same behavior at the Brian Thompson article and Havana Syndrome, so COVID alone doesn't seem adequate. Oddly, the intersection of "medicine and politics" would appear to cover all affected topics but maybe that's too bespoke? signed, Rosguill 17:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @BabbleOnto, re:It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to personally agree with the consensus, beyond just respecting it, no, you don't have to agree. You just have to accept and move on. Valereee (talk) 23:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think BabbleOnto is actually getting the right idea. You do not have to agree with consensus. There are some consensus positions here I don't agree with, and some I think are rather silly. But, until and unless they change, I respect and abide by them all the same. If I try to challenge them, and it becomes clear that such a challenge was unsuccessful, there comes a time to just shrug, realize you can't win 'em all, and move on. Since they seem to have gotten that point, I think maybe see how things go, and if they return to disruption, I think they're quite clear on what the results of that will be. Seraphimblade 14:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- In my experience sealioning is a habit editors have an extremely difficult time breaking. I was going to agree with Rosguill re: a tban from AP2 + COVID, maybe appealable after 3 months and 500 productive and unproblematic edits. This editor is basically ONLY editing in CTOPs, they're doing it disruptively -- we're talking about an editor with only 177 whom other editors are describing as exhausting to interact with! -- and the specific kind of disruption is both frustrating and tedious to prove and frustrating to try to get attention to because who you need so many diffs to prove it. That plus the apparent difficulty in breaking that habit, which btw they were continuing during this case...I dunno. Valereee (talk) 14:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I certainly understand your point. I am a little hesitant to sanction for "sealioning", as often it is difficult to tell where enthusiasm ends and disruptive tendentiousness begins, and I certainly do not want to have a project where people are afraid to advocate viewpoints contrary to a current consensus. That said, if everyone else feels sanctions are warranted, I won't object terribly strongly; I just generally prefer someone to get a chance to show if they've gotten the point (or in some cases, to conclusively demonstrate that they have not). Seraphimblade 20:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Generally I'm with you. Let people show they've dealt with the issue. Reblocking is pretty easy in most cases. But sealioning...well, it's such a difficult issue to prove/assess, and there are so many people doing it who don't even have the self-awareness to fix the problem that I kind of feel like it needs a tougher approach than I'd normally argue for. Not a hill I'm going to die on, but if the editor is back here or at ANI for the same issue, I am going to be extremely unhappy with them.
- @BabbleOnto, do you understand what we're talking about when we describe your participation at talk pages as WP:sealioning, and why we think it's such a problem, particularly in contentious topics? Do you think you can avoid participating in that way at article talk pages? Valereee (talk) 20:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I certainly understand your point. I am a little hesitant to sanction for "sealioning", as often it is difficult to tell where enthusiasm ends and disruptive tendentiousness begins, and I certainly do not want to have a project where people are afraid to advocate viewpoints contrary to a current consensus. That said, if everyone else feels sanctions are warranted, I won't object terribly strongly; I just generally prefer someone to get a chance to show if they've gotten the point (or in some cases, to conclusively demonstrate that they have not). Seraphimblade 20:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- In my experience sealioning is a habit editors have an extremely difficult time breaking. I was going to agree with Rosguill re: a tban from AP2 + COVID, maybe appealable after 3 months and 500 productive and unproblematic edits. This editor is basically ONLY editing in CTOPs, they're doing it disruptively -- we're talking about an editor with only 177 whom other editors are describing as exhausting to interact with! -- and the specific kind of disruption is both frustrating and tedious to prove and frustrating to try to get attention to because who you need so many diffs to prove it. That plus the apparent difficulty in breaking that habit, which btw they were continuing during this case...I dunno. Valereee (talk) 14:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Marlarkey
Marlarkey p-blocked from Declaration of war and formally warned to be more mindful of policies, guidelines and best practices when editing CTOPs, particularly PIA signed, Rosguill 19:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Marlarkey
User has been on Misplaced Pages (on and off) since at least January 2010. It seems there is a WP:CIR-related issue on ArbCom PIA/Contentious topics, given the very clear lack of ignorance of the ArbCom Notification and subsequent edit summary arguments. I do not necessarily believe a block will be of use in this case, due to this editor's on-and-off Misplaced Pages editing status (less than 500 edits since January 2010). Either a topic ban and/or a 1,000 EC status requirement (i.e. EC-status requirement is something higher than 500 edits) is being requested. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Discussion concerning MarlarkeyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by MarlarkeyWeatherWriter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is repeatedly reverting edits which are removing information outside the scope of the page in question. My edits are validly citated within the scope of the page. WeatherWriter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has cited WP:ARBPIA but that is not relevant to THIS article which is not a Palestine-Israel article. This article is not a contentious topic - it is factual. My edits are WP:NPOV. This article is about declarations of war - the opening statement states "A declaration of war is a formal act by which one state announces existing or impending war activity against another." 1. Hamas is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hamas should not be included in the article 2. Hezbollah is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hezbollah should not be included in the article 3. Russia vs Ukraine are both nation states - the question then is whether there has been a declaration of war. In the case 1 & 2, the removal of these two entries is WP:NPOV and the inclusion or otherwise in this article is in no way a comment on the conflict in question - only whether they constitute a declaration of war by one nation state on another. Which they do not because they are nation states. In the case of 3, the inclusion of Russia vs Ukraine only relies on whether there has been a declaration of war. The citation I gave is documented evidence of Russia announcing that a state of war exists between Russia and Ukraine. I suggest that by taking the action they have that the complainant is the one acting in a that asserts a political opinion about the conflict
Weatherwriter reversions of my edits serve to support a political opinion on a page which is about facts. I'm pretty angry about being accused in this way when MY edits were factually based and neutral point of view, whereas by reverting my edits it does precisely the opposite, allowing contentious and politically biased information to infect the page. GRRRRRRrrr Marlarkey (talk) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Again this makes me angry at the accusations being made against me. If you don't want people editing and contributing to[REDACTED] then please just say so. GRRR Marlarkey (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Result concerning Marlarkey
Marlarkey, you have gone a bit over your 500 word allotment for responses. Please do not comment further unless directly asked to. I will remove an additional reply that was both over your limit and in the wrong section. signed, Rosguill 00:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm thus inclined to suggest an indefinite partial block from Declaration of war (but not its talk page) as a regular admin action for edit warring, and a logged warning to be mindful of CTOP standards. signed, Rosguill 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC
|
DanielVizago
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning DanielVizago
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Schazjmd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- DanielVizago (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_and_sexuality#Final_decision
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 29 Dec 2024 Added Category:Misandry to a BLP, after CTOP notification and several talk page messages notifying DanielVizago that the category is not to be applied to articles about individuals (per category description,
This category is for issues relating to misandry. It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly misandrist.
); - 4 Jan 2025 and 5 Jan 2025 Removing sourced content from Misogyny that states misandry is not a major an issue as misogyny;
- 5 Jan 2025 Changing content in Male privilege to emphasize misandry (reverted by another editor with edit summary
rv, poorly sourced (sources supplemented by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH), earlier version was better, closer to sources
); - 13 Jan 2025 Added "bimisandry" to Biphobia, citing 4 sources, none of which include that term;
- 14 Jan 2025, weird edits adding Category:Female rapists with piped names to unrelated articles, then added those names directly to the category page;
- 14 Jan 2025 restored the "bimisandry" edit to Biphobia, then added a 5th ref that includes the term but is just a blog; I left a 4th-level warning on talk page;
- 14 Jan 2025 (after final warning) adds ] and ] to Hurtcore; those two individuals don't have articles and there is no mention in this article of their charges or convictions, even though the category solely consists of
articles of female individuals who have been convicted of rape in a court of law.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- None
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- I alerted them on 28 Dec 2024
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Above diffs are all edits after the CTOP notification was provided. Before then, DanielVizago misapplied Category:Misandry to 46 articles, which is what caught my attention. Their attempts to add "bimisandry" to Biphobia started 16 Dec 2024. On 28 Dec 2024, DanielVizago added a lot of content to Supremacism about misandry, which another editor reverted with edit summary remove recently added pro-fringe section and put back the excerpt
. Most of their 122 edits have been reverted by multiple editors.
Before the level 4 warning, I tried guiding DanielVizago away from CTOP; they don't engage on their talk page. (They've posted there once, to say "thanks" in response to a warning.) With their refusal to communicate, poor sourcing, and non-NPOV edits, I don't think they should be editing in this topic area. Schazjmd (talk) 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning DanielVizago
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by DanielVizago
Statement by caeciliusinhorto
Since this report was opened, DanielVizago has continued to make questionable edits adding articles to Category:Female rapists.
- Possibly the worst edit, categorising a living person who has been accused (but not charged, let alone convicted) of sexual assault as a rapist (cf. WP:BLPCRIMINAL)
- This edit adds the category to a disambiguation page on the basis of one of the people listed on that page, who had in fact been convicted not of rape but of sexual activity with a minor
- this and this edit categorise two sexually-motivated murderers as rapists despite no evidence that they ever raped anyone in the article (cf. WP:CATV)
Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Simonm223
Might be wise, as long as doing so wouldn't interfere with evidence, to get a revision deletion on some of the diffs presented above that make unfounded statements about BLPs. Simonm223 (talk) 18:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning DanielVizago
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I've p-blocked from article space to see if we can get this editor communicating. Valereee (talk) 12:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I want to hear what they have to say, but I'm going to need a fairly convincing explanation as to how they're here to build an encyclopedia and not to POV-push men's rights activism content where it doesn't belong. The IDHT and spammy behavior and the BLP vios on top of that aren't super encouraging, either, but if they decide to communicate, I'm happy to reassess. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:56, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd like to hear what they have to say, too, but I'm also not averse to letting this archive with no further action since the p-block is an indef. I've left another message at their talk. Valereee (talk) 13:41, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
]
Ekdalian
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Ekdalian
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- NXcrypto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Ekdalian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBIPA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 12:51, 11 January 2025 - Restoring recently added disputed content, contrary to WP:ONUS
- 21:55, 11 January 2025 - Casting unsubstantiated aspersions and poisoning the well against another editor.
- 12:01, 13 January 2025 - Poisoning the well against another user without any evidence of misconduct.
- 19:11, 15 January 2025 - Restoring recently added disputed content again and essentially asking to get consensus for it, contrary to WP:ONUS.
- 15:05, 16 January 2025 - Performs a blanket revert in order to make a WP:POINT, just because their previous edit was reverted, despite it being the version that was arrived upon by a month long discussion on the talkpage, also saying "LE also wants to discuss and revisit the content proposed by the sock" , LukeEmily later elaborated that they are okay with the version that Ekdalian was actually reverting
- 17:42, 16 January 2025 - Same as above but edit warring
- 19:42, 16 January 2025 - Edit warring and casting aspersions saying that reverting editor is acting like the blocked sock Nobita456 "stop behaving like Nobita please"
- 14:31, 18 January 2025 - Attacks and tries to poison the well against another editor also says that "WP:ONUS doesn't mean you need to achieve consensus with editors condemned by admins for persistent POV pushing! "
- 18:47, 18 January 2025 - Restores the aforementioned attack saying "Related to the content only, related to WP:CONSENSUS to be precise; accept the truth, I don't want to report minor incidents" when told to focus on content
- 18:29, 19 January 2025 - calling a WP:NOTVANDAL edit as vandalism and issues final warning for vandalism
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Has a {{Ds/aware|ipa}} template for the area of conflict on their own talk page. and notified of WP:ARBIPA by Dennis Brown in 2022
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I also note that Ekdalian has a history of aggressive edit warring in the contentious topic as a part of slow running edit war.On Bengali Kayastha, many of their most recent edits have been reverts to prevent content addition as well. It has gotten to the point where experienced users like Sitush have called them out for it because they usually misrepresent the consensus or comments by editors such as Sitush to claim that consensus already exists when there is none, they do not provide diffs when asked to substantiate their claims either. They have been reprimanded in past over similar conduct about misrepresentation and exaggeration by @Dennis Brown: on this venue as well. They have a history of attacking other users and trying to poison the well against them instead of focusing on the content as diffs above prove.
I am not seeking any topic bans but Ekdalian should be at least told not to misuse the talk page for adding more fuel into heated disputes, and use the revert button only when it is necessary. Nxcrypto Message 03:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm unimpressed by your defence of #10, it was an unsourced change, sure disruptive but not vandalism (which has a very specific meaning). Please refer to WP:NOTVANDAL. Nxcrypto Message 07:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Ekdalian
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Ekdalian
I have nothing to say as such! I have been serving Misplaced Pages since 2013, particularly related to contentious caste articles, fighting against caste promotion, POV pushing and vandalism. Heated debates are common in the contentious topics. I have neither violated 3RR, nor abused any editor! Yes, in case someone has been topic banned and condemned by admins, I do mention the same so that NPOV is not violated. Many admins are aware of my activities including SPI, anti-disruption and anti-vandalism. Thanks & Regards. Ekdalian (talk) 06:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Action (warning) may be taken against NXcrypto for being unable to identify vandalism (refer to point number 10), and wasting the time of our admins! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 06:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nxcrypto, it is a clear case of vandalism. The user intends to misrepresent and project their caste as Kulin Kayastha (higher status among Bengali Kayasthas) by intentionally changing Eastern (Bengal) to Western! Moreover, the user has done similar vandalism in multiple articles only in order to promote Western Bengali Guhas. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 08:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- In response to Bishonen's comments, I would like to inform here that Sitush is referring to my response at a time when Nobita456's sock was driving a discussion and I had filed an SPI! Therefore, I was delaying the discussion in order to eliminate the sock from the same. Sitush has been quoted out of context! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 12:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Orientls, the user has already been blocked for vandalism; I have years of experience in this area and quite sure of what I have mentioned! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 06:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Bishonen: I have clearly mentioned that I am not sure! But, Orientls seems to be so sure that they have stated that I am 'falsely' accusing him of meatpuppetry! How can you be so sure that there has been no mail exchanges? Orientls, do you think you are God? Regards. Ekdalian (talk) 06:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Orientls
I find this comment by Ekdalian unpalatable: "The user intends to misrepresent and project their caste as Kulin Kayastha." How are you so sure of their caste? I don’t see where they have self-identified as such, and you also accuse them of attempting to project "their caste'" with another one by "vandalising" Misplaced Pages, which is a serious accusation against a new editor. I think an editor of your tenure should be able to recognize what constitutes vandalism because those edits are not vandalism, you should also refrain from speculating about the caste of editors.
This reasoning seems odd, especially when Sitush himself states: "CharlesWain began this discussion. They are not a sock, are they?" , implying that you were opposing changes proposed by an editor who was not a sock by misrepresenting Sitush's comments. I also think canvassing was inappropriate, particularly with its problematic heading, "Kind attention: Bishonen and admins active here." It sounds as if you are trying to recruit people to back you up here.
Honestly, I’m not surprised by the diffs cited in the report, especially if your conduct at ARE is like this where your edits are under scrutiny.
@Bishonen: While the filer himself made it clear that he is not "seeking any topic bans", Ekdalian deserves a topic ban following this new message. By calling an editor with almost 4k edits a "comparatively new user" and falsely accusing him of "meatpuppetry", Ekdalian has proven he is not capable of editing here without poisoning the well and making personal attacks. Orientls (talk) 03:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Ekdalian
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I will point out that I was canvassed to this discussion by Ekdalian. That said, I'll state that I don't think NXcrypto's diffs are anything much; it's surely a stretch to call them "casting apersions" and "poisoning the well" and the like, especially in the IPA area where the tone is often sharp. The comments by Sitush are a little more concerning, though. Bishonen | tålk 10:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC).
Alex 19041
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Alex 19041
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Est. 2021 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Alex 19041 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Alex 19041
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Alex 19041
I have been made aware of the rules and will follow them in the future - I hope this suffices as a statement as I don't think there is anything worth adding that hasn't been said already
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Alex 19041
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- To recap what's already been said at the initial hearing this got at ARBCOM, it has been identified that Alex19041 is not extended-confirmed, has now been made aware of the 30/500 editing restriction for PIA, has acknowledged that they should not make any edits to the topic, but has not quite acknowledged that they also should not make comments relating to the topic outside of article space. If they can acknowledge that, an IBAN would be unnecessary as they will not be engaging further with the discussion at-issue for some time. If they can't acknowledge that, we'd likely need to escalate to blocks, as there's no reason to expect the IBAN to be observed. Some concern was also raised that Est. 2021's replies to Alex 19041 included personal attacks, although it should be noted that Est. 2021 has made an effort to remove potentially-problematic statements from their prior comments at ARBCOM (sections on their talk page containing similar language have been removed entirely, which is within their purview on a user talk page). signed, Rosguill 16:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- (came here from the ill-fated ArbCom case request). I agree with Rosguill. Some assurance from Alex 19041 and from Est. 2021 that they will leave the problematic edits behind would be good.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree that the reported user needs to show some understanding that as a non-EC user, they need to leave this CTOP alone across all namespaces. However, sanctions are for serious, ongoing problems, three unwelcome talk page posts made over the course of an hour does not strike me as sufficient cause for a formal iban. If there's more to it than that, it needs to be made clear, with diffs. Beeblebrox 21:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- It doesn't look like Alex 19041 has edited since the case started. Alex, if you are seeing this, you do need to come in here and respond. Ignoring this will not make it go away. Valereee (talk) 15:33, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Denali-related pages
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Denali-related pages
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Beeblebrox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Pages about which enforcement is requested
- Denali-related pages
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:CT/AP
I think this is the right place to ask for this? Requesting an expansion of WP:CT/AP to cover all articles related to Denali, as it has unfortunately become a political hot-button issue as the POTUS made it a prioroty on his first day back in office to sign an executive order to revert the name of the mountain back to "Mt. McKinley".
In the past twenty-four hours there has been heavy editing/disruption in articles and on related talk pages and protection has been needed at several. Denali was probably hit hardest, but Denali–Mount McKinley naming dispute got some too, as has Denali National Park and Preserve, which is explicitly not even part of the executive order. I wouldn't be surprised if the same issue is happening in Gulf of Mexico related articles, but haven't checked for myself. Beeblebrox 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, just checked Gulf of Mexico. 28 new talk page sections in the past day, was already ECP protected two weeks ago per WP:CT/AP.
- I kinda think a single admin could do this, but I am editorially involved and probably slightly too infuriated to be objective. Beeblebrox 22:32, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the replies, that's kind of what I thought, but again didn't want to act on it as I'm editorially involved. Beeblebrox 22:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Discussion concerning Denali-related pages
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Denali-related pages
Statement by Isabelle
Since I've protected Denali's talk page, I will comment here. I agree that we will be seeing serious issues in the coming month, considering all the shit the new president is throwing at the wall, but I believe the administrators are well equip to deal with this at the moment. I believe Valereee has protected the Gulf of Mexico's talk page, and I've dealt with Mount Denali's. We might need to apply more extensive protection during this coming month to stop the vandals, but current tools will do just fine. Isabelle Belato 23:04, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Valereee
Pinged here: yes, I've semi'd Talk:Gulf of Mexico, yesterday for 24 hours, today for another 31. I dislike protecting a talk, but it was a burden for editors working there. Valereee (talk) 23:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- 100+ edits today on the article, which is EC protected. I feel like that's a lot. Valereee (talk) 23:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Denali-related pages
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @Beeblebrox: AMPOL already covers "Post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed". I think that "broadly construed" would include Denali and Gulf of Mexico in the current moment. In any event, I think you'd want to go to ARCA, not here, for an amendment. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, Denali is already ECP and Denali National Park and Preserve has semi-protection. There's no protection on Denali–Mount McKinley naming dispute, but I'm not seeing anything in the page history that would justify it.l voorts (talk/contributions) 22:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- AE couldn't expand the scope of an existing CT designation; only ArbCom could do that. But I don't think we need to. If the disruption is related to a current American politics controversy, that's clearly related to "post-1992 politics of the United States", and so is already in scope of the existing CT designation. So, I'd say just treat it as such. Seraphimblade 22:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Callmehelper
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Callmehelper
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Srijanx22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:30, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Callmehelper (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 4 January - Violates copyrights
- 19 January - Files a frivolous report against other editors, mislabels their edits as "vandalism" and then rudely responds to onlookers as also noted by Liz by saying "That's a very rude reply, Callmehelper."
- 19 January - Mislabels an edit as "vandalism".
- 21 January - Trying to get article on a non-notable subject created and not dropping the WP:STICK.
- 21 January - Casts WP:ASPERSIONS against the new page patrollers, and demeans them as "
people those rejected are so much had biased opinions that I can't discuss.
"
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Callmehelper
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Callmehelper
This is my side ;
- 1 Allegation : Yes, it was indeed a copyright violation. This was my first encounter to something like copyright violation. Which i just copy-paste of a paragraph from govt website. Then one senior editor tell me in my talk page about what copyright violation is and how that works, and it was my very healthy and learning session for me tbh. Please see the whole discussion, then it will exhibit a full picture. First conversion happened in my talk page seethen little more conversations happened in his talk page pls see And ultimately matter solved and i learnt by this conversations and after that i never did anything like copyright violation. I don't know why this issue is used here against me.
- 2nd Allegation : This is little complex and long problem. Although i explain it very deeply during AN/I. But i will cut it short. It was started very much before. Firstly someone tag me about this vandalism by saying that one editor try to manipulate some paragraph in that page then i got involved in this. I restored that paragraph but it was reverted by again that guy and it keep going for sometime, then i told them in his talk page but he just delete that talk without replying, then i go for article talk page and write all that issue but no one replied, then i go to two administrator personal talk page, one was busy and one told me that i should go for AN/I but here also i got no reply for 2 days. after all that someone replied that i should go for main article talk page, which i was already did. this was disappointing for me as i feel in a loop as in talk page no one replied. so i replied very rudely but it was more of a frustration for 4 days. But nevertheless, I apologise to that editor and that senior editor named Lez who told me about my rudeness, in next reply. Moreover i also apologise to that editor in his talk page on same day.
- 3 Allegations : It was related to 2nd allegation. It was indeed a Vandalism, because after discussion done in that talk page that editor was again removing all this , so i had to go to his talk page and said about this is Vandalism pls stop doing it but again that guy deleted my vandalism warning without replying to me see , But ultimately that editor stopped doing vandalism in that page and it then remains restored after so my efforts for continuous 5 days.
But i don't know how that respected complainer think that this is not vandalism? IT WAS VANDALISM.
- 4th & 5th Allegations : I am not aware about WP:Stick. Simply I make a draft and leave a (template submit) in my draft and then it goes for discussion. After so much long long conversations, it was finalized that the draft is still not acceptable as it lack Notability and i ultimately accept that and this conversation end in very light way. pls see
My Conclusion: I whenever make any statement in uncivil manner i never ever leave as it is without my apology. i apologise to those whenever i feel that i replied them in uncivil way.
As i am not so english fluent, so i don't have much dictionaries of words, so ultimately some my words reflect a little rudeness, but it was never be my intention. so apologise to him immediately.
Although i am new , but i am sure i will be adapt myself very soon about all the policies. I also work on myself perticularly about my choice of words.
Those seniors who seen my choice of bad words should advice/warm me in my talk page instead of going direct complaining, as i seen such policy as , as i never ignored any type of warning/advice or suggestions.
This was my side.
I will accept any kind of warning or ban after all.
Thanks.
Much Regards.
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Result concerning Callmehelper
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