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== Lead: Changes in meaning of article ==

Recent changes made by Doc James in the lead change the overall meaning and context of the article. This is a massive change to any article and should not be carried out with out equally extensive editor involvement , discussion and agreement. Britannica is a tertiary source and questionable.(] (]) 18:27, 26 August 2010 (UTC))

::::As discussed previously TM refers to both a technique and a religious movement per the majority of source. I think I quoted the EB and OED last time. Thus we use it in this article to refer to both.] (] · ] · ]) 04:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
:::::I feel the lines between TMM and TM are beginning to blur here. There were discussion in the past about the main thrust of this article and from these discussions was born the article on the TMM. Undoubtedly, there is a connection between NLP and TM, but perhaps the bulk of the text on NLP, TM as religious organization, etc. would be best placed in the TMM article and let this article focus more on the TM technique. I know we have had this debate before, but on reading thru the article again today, and trying to look at it from a "new" reader's respective, I think there could be confusion in the readers mind. Perhaps we could all think together how best to tackle this. --] (]) 12:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

::::::The are multiple sources that do not refer to the TM technique as a religious movement. I don't think we have to go there. The TM movement article was split off as a possible antidote to an article that was becoming increasingly bogged down in content that was only peripherally related the technique itself. It doesn't seem to make sense to once again begin adding remotely related content to this article. This would give us two articles with pretty much the same content. Although I didn't agree with the split, there was consensus for the split. Consensus is not binding over time of course, and can give way to another consensus.(] (]) 16:43, 26 August 2010 (UTC))

:::::::On this sort of article Misplaced Pages uses terminology as it is used by the general population per reliable sources not how terminology is used by a small specialist population.] (] · ] · ]) 18:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

::::::::Please link me to the "extensive" discussion that indicates this change to the lead has agreement. If you can't, revert. You are making up your own rules. Or perhaps you can cite the policy or guideline that says this "'''On this sort of article Misplaced Pages uses terminology as it is used by the general population per reliable sources not how terminology is used by a small specialist population'''". This has nothing to do with a "small specialist population". You are changing the meaning of an article with out discussion and further you reverted a good faith attempt to compromise on that change. Perhaps you could explain what you mean by "small specialist population".(] (]) 18:51, 26 August 2010 (UTC))

I'd like to see the "extensive discussion" on your change. I certainly missed it. Is another encyclopedia a reliable source? (] (]) 19:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC))
:Editors routinely make significant additions to articles without prior discussion.
:If this is another dispute over whether this article is over the technique or something more then perhaps the best solution would be to move it to "Transcendental Meditation technique". That'd make the scope of very clear. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 19:46, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

::The standard here since the arbitration and been to discuss and then add with discussion. Doc James changed that yesterday with unilateral edits. The change he made today changes the scope of the article.That is a serious edit. That isn't fine with me since he did it with out other editor input, and reverted my attempt to use his idea but not to change the article. Moreover he claims discussion took place when it didn't. That's not fine with me either. Finally I am not Kbob so its no use using an example of his editing to insinuate that I should consider what Doc did was fine... Its not. This ''is'' about the TM technique article except there is no more TM technique article anymore. Doc changed it. That's not fine either. This change needs to be discussed. I don't agree to changing the scope of the article. Do you?(] (]) 20:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC))
:::I don't see that standard being followed. Just today, Keithbob added a large amount of material to the MMY bio. We've asked before if editors here wanted to make that a standard, but there's never been agreement.
:::We've certainly discussed the "technique vs. movement" issue before. I'll go check the archives. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 20:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

:::The standard was being followed here at least until Doc's edits of yesterday. Since Doc has changed that and you seemed to agree, I guess the new standard will be add whatever you want. There was never a discussion and especially consensus that discussed making a change to the opening sentence of the lead so this article would become about TM movement. A discussion about TM and TM movement is a very different issue. I'm sorry Doc couldn't reply for himself. (] (]) 20:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC))
::::I don't see any sign of that standard, and I don't see you complaining about Kbob's far more significant edits to MMY. Maybe there's more than one standard? I'm sure Doc will respond too. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 20:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

There've been countless discussions that touch on the issue of "technique vs. movement". Here's a recent one:
*]
Here's one from last year:
*]
Let's try to avoid discussing the same points over and over. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 20:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

You're ignoring what I'm saying. The edits Doc made change the scope of the article. Is that OK with you and the other editors. Was there consensus for that. I didn't see Kbob's edits and at this point they're not what I'm dealing with. Is he changing the scope of the MMY article? Since this discussion is going the way of ignore the real questions and throw out a red herring or two, I'll leave you to it. (] (]) 20:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC))
:How has the scope changed? It is true that the phrase "Transcendental Meditation" is used to refer to both a technique and a movement. That has been the case since before Misplaced Pages began. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 20:57, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

::I edit boldly and will continue. What I have added is referenced to the EB. I presented this before . Many other references can be found for this usage. This article should contain and deal with both.
::I agree if people wish to discuss the technique in lenght it can be summarized here and further discussion can take place in a sub article. BTW TM is used primarily to refer to the religious movement in scholarly texts.] (] · ] · ]) 17:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
:::Then wondering why Will felt the need to create the TMM article if this article was going to continue to be the catch-all for TM as a technique and TM as an organization. Maybe Will can comment on this. --] (]) 21:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

::::Sub articles are often created when content goes past what a single article can hold. Look at the page on ] for example and you will see dozens of sub articles dealing with specific aspects in greater detail.] (] · ] · ]) 21:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

== Discussion and agreement requested from all editors for recent addition to Lead ==

'''''Transcendental Meditation''' is used to refer to both a ]<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/602436/Transcendental-Meditation |title=Transcendental Meditation -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia |format= |work=Britannica Online Encyclopedia |accessdate=}}</ref> and specifically to the form of ] ] practiced by this movement.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://dictionary.oed.com/ |title=Transcendental Meditation |format= |work=Oxford English Dictionary|accessdate=}}</ref> They were introduced in ] in 1955<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-02-05-maharishi-obit_N.htm|title=Beatles guru dies in Netherlands|work=USA Today|agency=Associated Press|date=February 5, 2008}}</ref><ref name=SFGate>{{cite news|url=http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1995/12/29/MN65432.DTL|last=Epstein|first=Edward, |title=Politics and Transcendental Meditation|work=San Francisco Chronicle|date=December 29, 1995}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/la-me-maharishi6feb06,0,2399627,full.story|last=Woo|first=Elaine|title=Maharishi Mahesh Yogi; founded Transcedental Meditation movement|work=Baltimore Sun|date=February 6, 2008}} reprinted from ''LA Times''</ref> by ] (1917–2008).<ref>{{cite book|last=Morris|first=Bevan|chapter=Forward|title=Science of Being and Art of Living|author2=Maharishi Mahesh Yogi|location=New York|publisher=Plume/The Penguin Group|year=2001|isbn=0452282667}}</ref>''

'''References'''
{{reflist|close=1}}

===Discussion===
*There was no consensus for this addition.
*The sources, 9,10, are tertiary and non compliant.
*This is not an honest description of spiritual movement.
You are in effect hiding information in the linked, "spiritual movement" suggesting that TM in the opening line of the lead is a religion.
That TM is a religion is a contentious point that has been explored later in the article. In the lead placed as it is, as a definitive point, this is a POV and a violation of NPOV.
*I wil remind Doc James that all editors here are bound under the TM Arb Com and agressisvely ignoring other editors while adding what constitutes POV content, does not jive with the arbitration. Nor is this the wild west.
*If all editors agree that this content is fine then the content is fine in my mind.
*This needs to be discussed and agreed upon by all of the editors here.(] (]) 23:06, 27 August 2010 (UTC))

:Consensus isn't required for additions. Tertiary sources are allowed. See ]. I've removed the link to "religion" - perhaps we can find a better link, but in the meantime we can leave it unlinked. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 23:27, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

:Re: "spiritual movement":
:*''Setting aside speculation that Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's '''spiritual movement''' may lose steam after his death, his followers say that it will only grow stronger and has in place a well-knit system of kingship.''
:**Maharishi's movement will only grow stronger, say devotees. The Hindustan Times. New Delhi: Feb 14, 2008.
:*''He brought his '''spiritual movement''' to the West in 1959 and in 1968 the Beatles went to India to meditate with him. ''
:**Beatles' Maharishi passes to other side. ED HARRIS. Evening Standard. London (UK): Feb 6, 2008. pg. 26
:*'' But the most famous teacher of them all was the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, who took his Transcendental Meditation world tour on the road in 1958 and set in train a '''spiritual movement''' that at the height of its fame was to sweep up some of the most famous people in the world, among them The Beatles, Mike Love of The Beach Boys, Donovan, Mia Farrow and later the comedian Andy Kaufman.''
:**the ultimatestressbuster; The Independent. London (UK): Oct 10, 2007. pg. 20
:Et cetera. There are clearly multiple sources to support calling TM a "spiritual movement".
::I have reworded the opening sentence of the lede today, with the emphasis being on the TM technique. I did not see this discussion on the talk page before making the edits. Sorry if caused confusion. --] (]) 11:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
:::I think there is a difference between "spiritual" and "religious" in many peoples mind. --] (]) 11:44, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

::::I'm kind of sorry BWB made this change since we are in the middle of discussion, but then Will made changes as well so I guess we just go with what we have.
:::: We have sources that define TM as a spiritual movement. We have sources that defineTM as religious. TM is fundamentally a technique. We have an article to dump in anything that refers to movement. We have a pretty robust section on the religion debate. This article is about the fundamental technique. The wording must indicate that. If we want to say the TM refers to the technique and the movement fine but it can't be given the kind of weight that will change the focus of the article so that it becomes another TM movement article. This is the TM technique article. There is no agreement to change that focus.(] (]) 19:22, 28 August 2010 (UTC))(] (]) 19:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC))

::::Sorry... didn't realize my automatic login wasn't automatic today.(] (]) 19:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC))
:::::This why I changed the first sentence to begin with TM technique. As I said above, I changed the article text BEFORE reading the talk page. I am happy to continue discussion here. --] (]) 20:22, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

:::::::This is the "Transcendental Meditation". The first thing the article should do is define that term. It applies to both a spiritual movement and a meditation technique. It's logical to do that at the outset, not wait until the end of a long article. In and of itself, it doesn't change the scope of the article which has always been "Transcendental Meditation". &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 21:53, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


==State of the research==
::::::::This article has been about the technique, as the opening line stated, "The Transcendental Meditation or TM technique is a form of mantra meditation..." adding "and to the spiritual movement that teaches it" redefines the article, as does leaving out the word technique. I don't agree to changing the scope of this article to include TM "movement" content, and potentially expanding the scope of the article beyond technique. We have an article that does that. We don't need another one. I don't agree to the wording that opens the door for indiscriminate adding of content that may only peripherally refer to the technique, and I especially don't agree to any of the above based on the edits of one or two editors. Adding content that as I said changes the potential scope of an article , whose scope has been stable for a long time requires discussion and input, so let's give editors time to think about it and check in on the issue.(] (]) 02:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC))
:::::::::We have sources that say TM is a spiritual movement. Until we move this article to "Transcendental Meditation technique" it will need to cover both topics. "Transcendental Meditation movement" was split off as a sub article, but that doesn't mean the parent article should ignore its existence. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 03:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


I'm adding this so we can begin to look at potential updates to the research on TM. I had requested above we not make changes until Doc James is back on Misplaced Pages or 6 months to give him a chance to be part of this. I can't enforce this of course, but I am complying with this and hope others will too. I can add results from newer research if wanted.
::::::::::Another TM movement article is redundant. I'll take it to mediation.(] (]) 03:22, 29 August 2010 (UTC))
:::::::::::Another? No one has suggested writing a third article. I'm not sure what you're talking about. This seems like a lot of turmoil over sourced material that no one says is wrong. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 03:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


'''Problematic sources'''
The article used to have this information in the lead:
*''The Transcendental Meditation technique, or TM, is a form of meditation that was introduced by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, an Indian spiritual teacher. '''It has become a worldwide movement''', with over six million people having learned the technique. ''
*''Transcendental Meditation is an ancient form of meditation which has its foundation in Hinduism. Transcendental Meditation is commonly referred to as '''TM, which is also an organization''' that promotes a widely recognized meditation technique which was developed in 1955 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, a disciple of Guru Dev.''
*''Transcendental Meditation or TM is a trademarked form of meditation developed in 1955 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, a disciple of Brahmananda Saraswati. '''It is also the name of a movement''' led by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, which claims Transcendental Meditation is reminiscent of and possibly derived from Hindu tantric practices.''
*''Transcendental Meditation is '''also the name of a ]''' led by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. ''
I'm not sure why it was removed, but the current version seems like an improvement. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 04:43, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


:TimidGuy deleted the movement from the lead here: He issued a legal threat over the matter on the talk page. Hopefully there won't be any legal threats this time. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 05:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


•'''Transcendental meditation for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease (2017)'''
::I'd prefer to focus on this lead and rewriting it rather than what would seem to be red herrings. TG made the edit with the express permission of an editor editing at the extreme other end of the spectrum from himself. Your edit implies there was no agreement for his edit. You are really assuming a legal threat and not assuming a comment about the nature of the issue, that is, that the use of the name is a legal issue rather than one editors generally can deal with? And should we dig through archives looking for, out of the multiple incarnations of the lead, versions that support each of our positions.


Louise HartleyAngelique MavrodarisNadine FlowersEdzard ErnstKaren Ree
:: To start: In the writing of this lead we must make it clear immediately that this article is about the technique, and what the name of the technique is.
''Transcendental Meditation or the Transcendental Mediation technique (TM technique) is a specific form of mantra mediation introduced in India in 1955 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (1917–2008)..''


'''Withdrawn'''
::Is there any disagreement for using this specific information?
From the review.&nbsp;This Cochrane Review has been superseded. See 'Meditation for the prevention and management of heart disease'.&nbsp;The editorial group responsible for this previously published document have withdrawn it from publication.


::I'm not familiar with the legal aspects of using the accurate name, so can't really comment on that aspect.(] (]) 17:42, 29 August 2010 (UTC))
:::Yes, I though that the reason to have the TMM article was to focus on the organization teaching TM and related techniques, programs, etc., and this article would have the focus on the TM technique. There is substantial amount of text in the TMM article about it's cult, religions, spiritual nature. Why do we now have to repeat all that stuff in this article? The TMM lead contain the following text -
::::"The TM movement has been described as a spiritual movement, as a new religious movement, and a "Neo-Hindu" sect, and characterized as a religion, a cult, a charismatic movement, a "Sect", "plastic export Hinduism", a progressive millenialism organization and a "multinational, capitalist, Vedantic Export Religion" in books and the main stream press, with concerns that the movement was being run to promote the Maharishi's personal interests." --] (]) 18:00, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps Doc would like to present his rationale for his edit to the first sentence of the lead and how he sees the relationship of this article to the TMM article, since it was his edit that seems to have stated this debate. --] (]) 19:49, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


•'''Meditation therapy for anxiety disorders (2006)'''
*''In the writing of this lead we must make it clear immediately that this article is about the technique, ''
"Must?" According to whom? Dogmatic assertions like this don't make editing easier and promote a contentious atmosphere. Let's aim for "Consensus building" and avoid "Feuds and quarrels". If we "must" do anything in the lead, it's to define the meaning of "Transcendental Meditation". Is Olive asserting that "Transcendental Meditation" is not used to refer to a spiritual movement? &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 23:56, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


T Krisanaprakornkit&nbsp;1,&nbsp;W Krisanaprakornkit,&nbsp;N Piyavhatkul,&nbsp;M Laopaiboon•"
::Will ... that's not what I meant ... I was talking in a generalized "we" as in a more technical way.. that is, that the content of the article per WP:Lead needs to be explained immediately:
''The first paragraph should define the topic without being overly specific. It should establish the context in which the topic is being considered by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it. If appropriate, it should give the location and time. It should also establish the boundaries of the topic...
''
:: I've been asking for discussion and agreement from the beginning of this discussion so I think we can move on with out talking about feuds and quarrels.
::I outlined above an opening sentence for the lead and asked if you agree with it. If you don't, would mind writing something you do agree with. (] (]) 01:08, 30 August 2010 (UTC))
:::The current text, as edited by Bwb, is:
:::*''Transcendental Meditation is used to refer to the specific form of mantra meditation and to the spiritual movement that teaches it.''
:::Olive's proposed text seems to be omitting something. Maybe as a compromise, we could have something like:
:::*''Transcendental Meditation or TM refers to a mantra meditation technique introduced in 1955 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and to the spiritual movement that teaches it.''
:::The dates of the Maharishi's life seem irrelevant to the intro, and referring to India puts too much attention on one country, which is illogical since it's an international phenomenon. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 02:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


&nbsp;
::::Omitting something? This is a first sentence. I am establishing what the article is about. I am referencing the stable version of the article in which the article was about the TM technique. What am I omitting in the opening sentence?
Limited to two studies and only one on TM (Review of one primary study). Authors consider the review limited in scope/more research needed.
:::::Your version describes the scope of the article as, about a technique, and, the movement. It doesn't specify the official trademarked name of the technique. That's a concern for me. We have an article that describes the movement, do we need another one?
::::::: What is the primary subject matter of this article? This question needs to be addressed probably, before we can go on.(] (]) 17:44, 30 August 2010 (UTC))
::::::::I would say it is the TM technique. --] (]) 18:00, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


:::::::::The topic of the article is "Transcendental Meditation", including all of its aspects. Full descriptions of some aspects have been split off into daughter articles. The purpose of the lead sentence is to define the topic, not to set the scope of the article. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 20:13, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


• '''Meditation practices for health: state of the research. (2007)'''
In fact no that isn't the topic of the article. You split off TM movement as the mother article and took step to make sure it was regarded as such. Is TM movement now a daughter article. TM movement was meant to include all of the aspects according to you. A radical change in the scope of this article is a serious issue. I see once again this discussion is going around in circles. I'd like to get outside input, (formal mediation) because of the contention and size of the change being suggested.(] (]) 21:36, 30 August 2010 (UTC))
:I think this concern is based on a mis-perception of how daughter or sub-articles work. Let's say we have a biography of Woodrow Wilson. Eventually, the material on his presidency grows so large that it is split off into a daughter article. "Presidency of Woodrow Wilson". The original article still has the same scope and topic as before, but now instead of a complete discussion of the presidency it has a short summary with a link to the daughter article. It would still mention in the lead that Wilson was president. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 21:44, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


Maria B Ospina,&nbsp;Kenneth Bond,&nbsp;Mohammad Karkhaneh,&nbsp;Lisa Tjosvold,&nbsp;Ben Vandermeer,&nbsp;Yuanyuan Liang,&nbsp;Liza Bialy,&nbsp;Nicola Hooton,&nbsp;Nina Buscemi,&nbsp;Donna M Dryden, and&nbsp;&nbsp;Terry P Klassen
::TM movement is not a sub article. It became the master article to which you linked or connected all of the other TM related articles. I hope you're not denying that. Now... we don't need another TM movement article we need a TM technique article which this one was until an editor changed that focus with out consensus... and yes as far as I'm concerned ... that kind of huge shift requires consensus because it will affect the entire article. If we can't come to some agreement I do think we need outside help.(] (]) 03:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC))


'''Archived'''
(undent) I added qualification to the term clarifying how it is used out in the real world. Thus an improvement to Misplaced Pages. We do not need consensus to make these changes. We at Misplaced Pages do not get to determine work meaning but are to reflect the meaning of terms as found in high quality sources. If you feel that outside help is needed you are more than welcome to try one of the notice boards or other dispute mechanisms and I will be happy to comment further there.] (] · ] · ]) 03:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Archived for historical reference only


:::"How it is used in the real world... and improvement to Misplaced Pages"? What policy or guideline are you citing? We aren't talking about sources here we are talking about the scope of an article. Why do you think you have the right to change the scope of this article after multiple editors with multiple views have agreed to have this article be on certain information. (] (]) 03:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC))
::::Where was there a consensus to exclude mention of the movement from the lead? Looking through the talk page archives, this seems to be a perennial topic. Only a certain group of editors have ever disagreed to it, but they've done that routinely and vociferously. Over and over it's been added and then deleted. If folks want to keep fighting over this, that's fine, but let's not act like there was a sacred consensus that has been violated. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 04:39, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
:::::You mischaracterize. We are discussing the opening lines of the lead, not the lead as a whole, and I/we are discussing the scope of the article that changes as any writer knows when you adjust the opening sentence. Discussion of the lead as a whole was never under discussion except perhaps by you. And please keep your comments about other editors whomever you are referring to out of the discussion. Certainly we can deal with this here, now. (] (]) 04:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC))
::::::My edit is below which placed TM movement in the first paragraph, and which includes TM movement while not changing the focus of the article. . This was an attempt to create a compromise with both you and Jmh649 which was ignored. Does this suggest to you that I was trying to exclude TM movement from the lead?(] (]) 05:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC))
:::::::Is there anyone "here, now" who disputes that the term "Transcendental Meditation" is used by sources to refer to a movement? &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 06:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
::::::::We are trying to discuss the scope of this article. Can we stay focused on that please. My feeling is that this article's primary focus in the TM technique and the TMM article focuses on the organization that teaches TM and related programs. We are not arguing whether or not the media refers to the organization that teaches the TM technique as "TM", but this article's primary focus is the technique, and this needs to be clearly established in the opening sentence of the lead. --] (]) 08:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::That wasn't how this thread started. Olive complained about using tertiary sources, the link to religion, etc. I think those issues have been addressed. If editors want to start a discussion about limiting the scope of this article to only the technique then we should start a fresh thread for that. However I don't think there's much chance of getting a consensus to artificially censor neutral, well-sourced material from the article, so long as it is relevant to the topic of "Transcendental Meditation". &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 20:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


Anyone who's interested can see very well what the last two threads are about...let me reiterate. Changes were made in the syntax which change the scope of this article. "Technique" was used in the opening line to clearly delineate "technique" from "movement" We have now also a "movement" article. Use of technique in the opening lines has been a stable aspect of the article and defines the article. So far there is no agreement on how to include technique and movement. I will post another version later. Others could as well. Hopefully we can come to some agreement.(] (]) 21:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC))


'''More recent review/clinical updates'''
::Thus article discusses both the movement and the technique and it should continue to do so. The lead was just edited to reflect the rest of the article.] (] · ] · ]) 21:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


I'm adding a version of the lead that gives emphasis to "technique" as most of the article refers to the technique. Content that did not was moved into the TM movement article, and do we need another TM movement article?
Any thoughts on this version posted below?(] (]) 21:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC))


•'''Transcendental meditation for lowering blood pressure: An overview of systematic reviews and meta-analyses''' (2017)
''Transcendental Meditation is used to refer to a specific form of mantra meditation called the Transcendental Meditation technique movement introduced and developed by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. The meditation practice involves the use of a sound or mantra and is practiced for 15–20 minutes twice per day, while sitting comfortably with closed eyes. Transcendental Meditation may also refer to the Transcendental Mediation movement, the organization responsible for teaching the technique."


SooLiang&nbsp;Ooi, Melissa Giovino, Sok Cheon Pak
::I think what we have now is much better but you could try a RFC.] (] · ] · ]) 21:48, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


:::Is there an aversion to the word "movement"? Some editors here have spent the last three years fighting against its inclusion in this article.
:::Olive's proposal is much less complete that the existing text, and ignores the sources. What sources would Olive propose to support her proposed text? Is the sole function of the TM movement to teach TM? Does it not include other goods and services, etc? &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 00:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)


'''•First-line Psychotherapies for Military-Related PTSD (2020) /Clinical update (2020)'''
::::Well interestingly enough I did use the phrase TM movement in my edit to the article but when I mentioned this earlier it was ignored. Lets add that in shall we. Does that satisfy? And I didn't add the sources for this part of the discussion. I think its clear we had the sources in place for this content.
::::I did remove "India", and information about the Maharishi per Will's suggestion.
::::What is the objection to removing Transcendental Meditation and/ or TM technique? Could someone explain? Its a bit if a mystery.((] (]) 00:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC))


Maria M.&nbsp;Steenkamp,&nbsp;PhD1;&nbsp;Brett T.&nbsp;Litz,&nbsp;PhD2,3;&nbsp;Charles R.&nbsp;Marmar,&nbsp;MD4
:::::The current text is:
== Could you point to the content ==
:::::*''Transcendental Meditation is used to refer to a specific form of mantra meditation and to the spiritual movement that teaches it. They were introduced in India in 1955 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (1917–2008). The meditation practice involves the use of a sound or mantra and is practiced for 15–20 minutes twice per day, while sitting comfortably with closed eyes.''
:::::That seems accurate and succinct. I'd get rid of "is used to refer to" and replace it with "refers to", but otherwise it's OK. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 01:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)


Could anyone point to the section of the review that specifically indicates this edit:
== Religion ==


"There is no good evidence TM is of any use for reducing anxiety."
The topic of TM as a religion is very interesting. We touch on it in many different section but a full discussion probably needs a section of its own. Bromley "Most scholarly assessments warrant that TM displays mixed qualities of therapy and religion."] (] · ] · ]) 20:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


The review, author-conclusions states,"The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders. Transcendental meditation is comparable with other kinds of relaxation therapies in reducing anxiety,...
:The article had a religion section which was integrated into the article...Creating another religion section would mean dismantling parts of the article and moving that content back into the new section. This is a big change. It needs editor consensus.(] (]) 20:34, 25 August 2010 (UTC))
::There is a religion section. ]. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 20:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


I see two conclusions in reference to TM: One, that a small number of studies doesn't indicate conclusions for mediation therapy in general. And two, that TM compares to other kinds of relaxation therapies.
:::Sheesh ... I thought we'd discussed moving it and integrating it, and actually did it.... Bromley's comments can be added there then. We should consider WP: Weight though(] (]) 21:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC))


We could say," A 2006 review indicates no conclusions could be drawn on meditation as therapy, including TM, because of too few studies investigated.
::::On what this technique is based is of prime significance and thus belongs in the lead. Should be in both places really thus restored it to the lead.] (] · ] · ]) 21:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


The date is pertinent as is the reason the review cannot draw conclusions.
:::::James, that's just an opinion. There are other editors here. Why is your opinion worth more than their's? Moreover you refuse to even discuss but revert unilaterally to your content based on that opinion. I'm afraid I don't understand you're editing style given the circumstances and events surrounding these pages.(] (]) 21:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC))
:::::::A short reference to the origins of the technique seems appropriate for the lead, especially since we have a whole section devoted to it. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 22:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


I'd note per MEDRS,] that this source, at 2006, is outdated. There are more recent, pertinent, MEDRS compliant sources than a source that is 18 years old, with two studies and only one that pertains to the topic of this article, and that states, no conclusions could be drawn.
and thank you both... It actually felt like some collaboration went on there...Perish the thought.. :o)(] (]) 23:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC))
:Onward and eastward. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 11:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
::Hey! That phrase has copyrights!! --] (]) 11:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


There is no evidence, per this review, that the small number of studies reviewed can lead to evidence that meditation therapy is effective in anxiety reduction. The review does not say is of no use. That is an extrapolation, and not accurate per the review we are looking at.
:::The Broomley ref in the lead should be presented as fact unless we have equally good literature that disagrees. ] (] · ] · ]) 17:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


] (]) 16:51, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
== Order: TMM before TM technique? ==


:If the source says evidence does "not permit any conclusions to be drawn" that equates to "no good evidence" (in part because the default assumption is 'no effect'). Per ] it's best not to include the gubbins about what the document type is. Cochrane reviews are exempt from ] because the assumption is they update when the underlying evidence changes; this is set out in ]. ] (]) 16:58, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Doc has reordered the sequence of topics in the article, putting TMM before the TM technique. I disagree with this move now while we are still discussing the overall scope of the article. This move puts the TMM before the TM technique. Even in logical historical terms, the technique came before the TMM. Maharishi was teaching the technique before the event that spurred the creation of the SRM. I want to change the order to Lead, History, Technique, Movement, but thought to bring it to the talk pages first, since there is ongoing discussion of the scope. If the primary focus of the article is about the technique (my opinion), then the "Movement" section would come after the "Technique" section. It seems Doc is of another opinion and has acted on that opinion. --] (]) 09:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


::I agree and have updated the article to reflect this. ] (]) 17:14, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:The movement and the technique are inseparable. One has to join the movement to learn the technique. Thus the movement should be discussed first.] (] · ] · ]) 20:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
:Add: per your comment on Cochrane: There is much research now on meditation techniques that indicate reduction of anxiety. This review is poor in terms of the reviews and also in date. Maybe take look at the state of the research in meditation techniques. A lot has changed in almost 20 years. The same is true of anything we might call Fringe. What was fringe 20 years ago may now be mainstream. That's the nature of science and research. Salk research on the polio vaccines would by our standards have been considered Fringe at one time, but now with research is no longer so. ] (]) 17:23, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
::Really? This is a page specifically about ]. From a quick look the research scene is moribund (mindfulness is the new kid on the block). Which are the ] on TM and anxiety? ] (]) 17:30, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


:::I suggest you look deeper. And if you're in a looking mood you might want to check the Mindfulness article, a conglomerate of mindfulness related content rather than anything clearly delineated. The Effects of Meditation article is wracked with non- MEDRS sources and is clearly a mindfulness-dominated, POV article. I don't edit Misplaced Pages much anymore. Too Busy. And I don't try try to add new content or update this article in terms of research. There is a point where the fight isn't worth it. There is research being done on many meditation techniques from what I've seen. New kid might be a red flag, though; how much is MEDRS compliant? I am busy again for quite a while but I'll see about adding content on the state of the research on this article topic. It's not a competition. Meditation has become mainstream and there has to be room to accurately describe any forms that have verifiable, reliable sources. ] (]) 17:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
::No Doc...Where do you get your information...One doesn't join a movement to practice the technique. And no they aren't inseparable. Research, as one obvious example, is not on an organization, its on a technique. I will continue commenting above(] (]) 20:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC))
::::Also: Health effects section is organized to indicate the history of the research given this meditation has a relatively long history in research and the article follows that history. So the date of the Cochran review should be added back in. Right now there’s a bit of a gaping hole where research date was removed. ] (]) 19:28, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


:::You mean the TM technique is not copyrighted and one can learn it independent of the movement?] (] · ] · ]) 20:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
::::You are mixing up a lot of terms. I own a Mac computer. The name is copyrighted. I don't belong to the Mac organization. Ownership of the computer like ownership of the technique do not mean I have joined some kind of organization. I can learn how to operate the Mac from a person who has specialist knowledge on how to operate the computer properly. I can learn the technique from someone who has specialist knowledge in teaching the technique. In neither case do I join anything. So no... TM technique and TM movement are not the same thing.(] (]) 21:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC))
::::::::Argument from metaphor? So far as I can tell, no one belongs to the "Mac organization". I searched and can't find any references to such a thing. As for Apple Computer Inc., I don't see much resemblance to the TM movement. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 00:45, 1 September 2010 (UTC)


===Reversion of date with out summary comment===
::::::Geoff Gilpin reports that the movement officials call meditators "Citizens of the Age of Enlightenment". Other sources say:
Bon Courage. You've reverted with out any reason given. As I said here, the section is organized by date. You've removed the date. We do have another option. The review we are discussing has only one study on TM. Th authors conclude that with only that one study and whatever issues that study had no conclusions could be drawn. So per our own MEDRS guidelines this isn't a legitimate review since we are looking for replicated results. The whole thing should probably be removed. Further and again the review itself is outdated.
::::::*''Today, the movement has around four million members who practice it globally,...''
::::::*''...the movement, which claims more than five million practitioners in 130 countries today.''
::::::*''...the movement which has some five million followers worldwide, according to its web site.''
::::::*''...by the late '60s, his movement boasted a million members ...''
::::::*''He was the head a movement with five million followers worldwide, all seeking a higher consciousness through transcendental meditation.''
::::::*''...where he had set up the headquarters of a movement that is said to have six million followers worldwide.''
::::::*''The Transcendental Meditation movement claims six million practitioners worldwide, and centres in more than 100 countries.''
::::::*''Maharishi, now believed to be 90, still directs the movement, which claims more than 6 million adherents,... ''
::::::*''Last July Maharishi brought 2,000 people from all over the world to his Dutch compound to mark 50 years since he began teaching transcendental meditation, a movement that claims 6 million practitioners since it was introduced.''
::::::*'' The movement now has more than 4 million practitioners, half here and half overseas, said Enloe Willingham, the director of community relations for Heavenly Mountain.''
::::::*''Started four decades ago, the Transcendental Movement says it has five million members and about 1,000 teaching institutions.''
::::::*''The maharishi is the originator of the transcendental meditation movement, which has more than 4 million followers worldwide.''
::::::*''Since then, the TM movement claims millions of converts. ''
::::::*'' The movement claims three million members worldwide, a million of them in the United States.''
::::::How many sources do we have that say TM practitioners are not part of the movement? &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 23:52, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


I have to wonder why you're insistent in removing the date and ignoring context. I refuse to get into some weird edit warring situation so if you honestly and with out bias feel it is appropriate to exclude the date when information has been ordered historically and since you also seem to have no reason to make that deletion I will leave the edit. I can't argue with what is illogical. If you do have a bias do you really think our readers are stupid enough to wonder about the bald statement now in the article which makes no logical sense. ] (]) 21:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Which source says you "join" the movement when you learn the technique. I'm not sure what your point is. TM the technique is not the same as the TM movement. A technique is not an organization. That's just logic. (] (]) 00:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC))
:::::::::With all due respect to your "logic", we're here to summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view, not to apply our own logical conclusions. These sources indicate that the TM movement includes meditators. So yes, when you pay your fee and undergo your initiation you become a member of the movement. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 01:03, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
(undent) If you wish to propose changes please provide source. We have the EB that supports the usage of TM as a spiritual organization. Do we have reliable sources saying TM is not an organization?] (] · ] · ]) 00:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)


:See above where I put "Cochrane reviews are exempt from WP:MEDDATE because the assumption is they update when the underlying evidence changes". So the assumption is what Cochrane says is current. I'd suggest you actually engage with points made. The rest of that section needs to be made compliant with ] too. If you think that Cochrane rewiews are "not legitimate" that is not something Misplaced Pages can fix. ] (]) 21:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
== Mediation filed on opening paragraph of lead ==


::Ah well. You've sidestepped the points I made-red herring. You reverted the date of the review with out reason- no real edit summary given. And noting the information is not describing the source; this is supposedly a reliable source and this is just content. You've twisted WP:MEDSAY. Why are you afraid of adding a date? You've decided the research is moribund. I'm sure it is in this article because editors trot along and remove whatever doesn't suit their positions as you have done. You've worded the review inaccurately. I have no problem with adding whatever the review says but I do have problems with what appears to be illogical at best and biased at worst reading of the review. I'm no stranger to this kind of argument, and I know the only way too deal with it is to walk away. Should I add more research of which there is quite a bit, as the research on all forms of meditation increases yearly when this is what one deals with? You win! I don't deal with bullying or arguments that sidestep the issues. There's no point. ] (]) 22:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Jmh649 agreed to be part of a mediation. Anyone else who wishes to be part of the mediation would be most welcome. Please add your names. (] (]) 02:16, 1 September 2010 (UTC))
:::Olive, it is really impossible to respond meaningfully to that. ] (]) 06:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
:Isn't ] about the lead too? I don't see any point in having two separate mediations for the same block of text. Could you explain? &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 02:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)


:: Different part of the lead, very different issues. I've left it up to the mediator or whoever accepts to either combine them or to view then separately.(] (]) 02:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)) Note: Cochrane is not the only reliable;e source. ] (]) 00:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
:::Formal mediation is for issues that are unresolved after previous efforts have failed. It's not the first place to go. I suggest an RfC or informal mediation instead. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 06:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)


:What, for TM & anxiety specifically? It's not obvious that's the case. ] (]) 06:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
::::Thanks.(] (]) 18:14, 1 September 2010 (UTC))
::I'm not sire what point you're making?
::You're probably right. I really don't want to be here haggling over this article again. So my responses may not be complete. As perspective. I am a strict, maybe rigid, supporter of MEDRS. So, the subtle implication that I am supporting bias is frustrating. This article is not moribund, it's stable after years of contention. Let's see if I can make my position clear, as apparently I haven't. My perceptions.


The source in question is poor per MEDRS. It includes 2 studies, only one is about TM. MEDRS is meant to protect the reader from "Fringe" information- information that may with time become mainstream, but not now. As long as we have physicians who use Misplaced Pages for diagnosis( I'd head for the door if my physician did this), we have a responsibility to include only replicated studies/information. This review, such as it is, is not showing replicated information.
== RFC: Lead sentence ==


The source very clearly says,"The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders. Transcendental meditation is comparable with other kinds of relaxation therapies in reducing anxiety,..." the source does not make an overarching statement about anxiety and TM. This article is, however, making an over arching statement; we are misrepresenting the source in part by deliberately excluding context: The small number of studies does not allow any conclusions to be drawn. TM is comparable....
{{rfctag|reli|soc}}
"Transcendental Meditation" and "TM" are used by journalists and scholars to refer to both the meditation technique and the movement. Should the lead sentence of this article reflect both common usages? &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 22:49, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
===Comments from involved users===
:The lead sentence should make clear what the article is about. There is an article on TM movement. This article has been about the TM technique. Stylistically, placing both TM movement and meditation technique in the opening sentence must mean that the article is about both. In fact it hasn't been about both. Although there is content on TM movement, the article itself has not been on TM movement. Further, TM as a meditation technique is the most common usage. Literature on research on the TM technique dwarfs other literature. The primary issue here is what this article is about, once that has been established what goes where will proceed logically. The decision for deciding what this article is about can't be a unilateral one, but should be considered by all editors interested working on this page. And again before considering the sources... what is this article about? (] (]) 23:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC))
:As well. The technique has a trademarked name. Should that name be used. If not, why not? Right now the official name of the technique has been omitted from the opening sentence of the article. What purpose does it serve to exclude the name of the technique?(] (]) 23:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC))


The section has been organized by date. ] does not forbid basic information about the source being used. Using ] as some kind of edit summary seems disingenuous to me. There is implied consensus in a years long stable article that you ignored in favor of your own edit leaving a bald, dateless inaccurate statement.
::We at Misplaced Pages do not dictate word usage. We are here to reflect the usage of the scholarly community at large. So yes TM should refer to both the movement and technique. To do otherwise would be contravene ]. If the article historically was not about both this is something that must change. As it stands now though it does appear to deal with both adequately. ] (] · ] · ]) 23:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
:::So Doc it seems you've decided this article is to be about movement and technique, is that right?(] (]) 23:34, 1 September 2010 (UTC))
::::I have no idea how writing an article about a technique violates NPOV, or for that matter how writing an article about two topics is more neutral than writing an article about one. (] (]) 23:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC))
:::::NPOV requires that we include all significant points of view on a topic. Artificially limiting a topic to only certain points of view would be a violation. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 23:45, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Regarding the trademark issue: The details of the U.S. trademark filing have limited applicability to a worldwide movement. It is a very narrow self-description whose sole purpose is to fulfill certain legal requirements to prevent competing uses of a word or phrase. FWIW, the United States Patent and Trademark Office's Trademark Electronic Search System reports that the current trademark on "Transcendental Meditation" covers " G & S: EDUCATIONAL SERVICES-NAMELY, CONDUCTING COURSES AND SEMINARS ON PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT." (Anyone interesting in verifying will have to conduct a fresh search - there's no ability to directly link to a record.) There is no mention of a specific technique. Even if there were, Misplaced Pages articles are not constrained by U.S. trademark filings. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 23:43, 1 September 2010 (UTC)


The MEDRS position would be to remove the source. There is no replication, and there was not enough information to draw any conclusions.
:::::I'm not talking about a trademark I'm talking about common sense. The technique has a name...what is the objection to using it.(] (]) 23:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC))
::::::I don't understand. Is the technique not called "Transcendental Meditation"? If so, that is also the name of the movement or organization, according to sources. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 23:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
:::::::It's a servicemark, not a trademark. What is servicemarked is not the technique. What is servicemarked is the use of the term "TM" or "Transcendental Meditation" for the teaching of the technique. Taking at face value the claims of the Maharishi that the technique is thousands of years old and not his invention, the technique is not capable of being legally trademarked or servicemarked. Accordingly, anyone can teach the technique - so long as they don't call it TM. So, the argument based on the trademark has this exactly backwards; for purposes of trademark law, TM is ''not'' the technique; it is the method teaching of the technique, which is the TM Org and Movement. That being said, the argument based on trademark/servicemark misses the point entirely. ] (]) 00:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC)


Finally, as an experienced editor you know that the only way I can deal further with this issue is to edit war and to enter the morass that follows that kind of contention. I attempted to compromise by agreeing with an edit you made, whether I bought the argument or not, but you went further with out agreement. I either walk away or am forced into an edit war. Is there frustration at being forced into such a position. Yes. But I don't care enough to engage in that kind of mess.
Transcendental Meditation technique is the name of the meditation, and the official name. Using TM to mean either movement or technique blurs specificity. I have to ask once again what is this article about. We have a TM movement article. Do we need another TM movement article? If Yes, why?(] (]) 03:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC))
::To answer your question what we need is a TM technique article. Thus you would be happy yes? I will create one.] (] · ] · ]) 06:39, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
:I just looked at the page you linked. In big letters at the top of the page it says, "The Transcendental Meditation Program". The url is "http://www.tm.org/meditation-techniques" - plural. According to this official site, it would appear that they call it a "program" covering more than one technique. Be that as it may, we aren't here to report just the official version. We're here to report all points of view, giving weight according to their prominence. This article isn't titled "Transcendental Meditation technique" or "Transcendental Meditation techniques" or "Transcendental Meditation Program". What it is called is "Transcendental Meditation", and sources say that phrase refers to the type of meditation taught by the Maharishi and to the movement founded by him. Therefore we should reflect both usages in the lead. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 05:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
::What do you mean by "reflect"? --] (]) 08:11, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
:::"Include" may be a more direct way of saying it, as in "we should include both usages". &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 08:43, 2 September 2010 (UTC)


The article as it stands now is weaker than it was, if MEDRS is a legitimate standard. I think it is. ] (]) 17:48, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
===Comments from uninvolved users===
I'm an outsider, having become aware of the differences here through Doc James' RfA. The solution which seems obvious to me is to have two articles:
*] (or techniques or program or methodology) where the first line says ''For the organization and movement, see ].''
*] where the first line says ''For the techniques of Transcendental Meditation, see ] (or methods, methodology, program etc).''


:{{tq|Finally, as an experienced editor you know that the only way I can deal further with this issue is to edit war}} &larr; not at all, you could raise a query at ]. But if you are going to argue that a Cochrane review is poor or fringe you'd better have a strong case! It is hallmark of good systematic reviews that they exclude poor sources; poor reviews tend to include all sorts of crap. But surely the main point is that this is the ONLY review of TM/Anxiety in existence. Unless you know of others? ] (]) 18:28, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
This has probably been considered. What are the objections to it? --] (]) 15:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)


::You've sidestepped once again: Why did you remove a date? And, the content you support does not faithfully reflect the source.
:Thanks Hordaland:There is a ] article that was split off of this article... and this article had been designated as the the technique article or methods article. One concern is that this article will become another TM movement article, and of course Misplaced Pages doesn't need two.(] (]) 15:55, 2 September 2010 (UTC))
:: No one suggested Cochrane in and of itself is not reliable. No source is valuable to us unless it specifically supports specific content and complies with our standards.
:: No one suggested the review is fringe.
:: I don't have to go to a notice board to know the content you are supporting does not reflect the source. Further NB are often a time sink, and the positions raised there are not binding on any article. Often they are a waste of time, of which I have little, in part because they are not binding
:: For starters, please look at the rest of the reviews in the section for TM and anxiety.
::I've done what I can do here. Best wishes. ] (]) 16:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
:::A date is only needed if the information is time-bound in some way. Has the view on TM/Anxiety changed? Per ] we should just deliver the knowledge payload without needless detail. The conclusion of the review says "The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders" which we summarize well (i.e. no good evidence to support). As to other sources: good tip. That Goyal source is comparatively recent (2014), but was badly mis-summarized. ] (]) 16:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC)


== Maharishi effect ==
::That's why the 2 names suggested above. (I know there is a TMM - I linked to it.) I don't see why there has to be a parent article to those 2 suggested. Most people will be looking for the one or the other of them (first). Is that the argument -- that there has to be a parent article? If so, it can be very short and summarize the other two, seems to me. ] (]) 17:08, 2 September 2010 (UTC)


"The square root of 1%" is 10%. I'm not sure what 0.00016% is in relation to 1%, but it's not the square root. ] (]) 18:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Yes, sorry I realized you had linked to the article after I'd already hit save. I think simply renaming this article would solve a lot of problems... there would be two distinct articles with your solution. I don't think having a parent article is an issue in this discussion. The issue for me is to make sure that the articles aren't duplicated as could happen if the opening sentence of the lead refers to both TM technique and TM movement equally. I think its fine to have TM movement mentioned in the lead as I've said several times, but placement is important. And TM movement does link back to this article.(] (]) 17:21, 2 September 2010 (UTC))
::::Well then, you and I are in agreement. Where's everyone else? :) ] (]) 17:29, 2 September 2010 (UTC) :What they mean is: the square root of (one per cent (1%) of the population), not (the square root of one per cent (1%)) of the population. --] (]) 06:02, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Yes think that is a great idea. I have moved much of the content to a subarticle. Some of the content overlaps and deals with both the movement and technique.] (] · ] · ]) 18:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC) :I've rewritten that part of the article, omitting the 0.00016%. It appears that the global population was ~4 billion in 1974, 1% of that is 40 million, and √(40 million) is 6324.5553 (0.000158% of 4 billion) <span style="white-space: nowrap;">] (]])</span> 16:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)


== Yogic Flying ==
::::::James. You have mistakenly misunderstood the points made here. There was no agreement to create another article. Agreement in which you included yourself was to rename this article. I don't consider that three of us constitutes a consensus. However in the middle of a discussion and RfC as well as a request for mediation you made a huge unilateral change very much against what you and two other editors agreed on. I ask that you un do what you've done and wait for editor agreement on whatever will solve the issues here. I assume good faith and hope you misunderstood the conversation. Thanks.(] (]) 19:36, 2 September 2010 (UTC))


The Journal of Conflict Resolution, 1988, published "International Peace Project in the Middle East: The Effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field." This study indicates a small group A of Transcendental Meditation peace experts practicing Yogic Flying (the √1% of the regional population), and thereby creating more EEG coherent brains, was time-lag correlated to B, reduced warfare in Lebanon. Cross-lagged panel correlation compares the synchronous correlation (the correlation between two variables at the same time) with the lagged correlations (the correlation of a variable with another variable at earlier and later times). The hypothesis that A is causing B is supported if variations in A are followed in time by correlated changes in B, whereas changes in B are not followed in time by correlated changes in A. "Cross-correlations and transfer functions indicated that the group had a leading relationship to change on the quality-of-life indicators, supporting a causal interpretation." </nowiki> ] (]) 07:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Was this not what everyone was referring too? We have an article for the movement, now we have one for the technique. And we have one that acts a little like a disambig and provides an overview of both.] (] · ] · ]) 19:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)


:Amazing bollocks eh! But why raise it? ] (]) 07:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
==Moving further material==
:Dear Editor,
I have split up much of the material. Anything else which should be moved? BTW a bot will come around and fix most of the refs.] (] · ] · ]) 18:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
:Here is further evidence why you post my edit from the Journal of Conflict Resolution.
:“A causal law of nature means no more and no less than that A is always followed by B (Kemeny, 1959),” said Dr. John G. Kemeny, former colleague of Einstein, and former President of Dartmouth College. This causal law satisfies the requirement made by non-TM peer review editors that TM causes the creation of a EEG coherent brain, increased IQ and intelligence scores, increased moral and ethical reasoning scores, more loving behavior, reduced school suspensions and expulsions, fewer hospitalizations in all disease categories, a longer average life span of about 15 years, relief from suicidal PTSD by veterans, and when only 1% of society practices TM, significantly decreased accident rates, decreased crime rates, and improved economic indicators like increased gross domestic product, and rising international stock markets.
:Non-TM peer review editors confirm: The chance of error in the TM crime reduction studies, is only p < .0000000000000000001. In normal studies p < .01 means there is an excellent chance — 99 per cent — that the difference in outcomes would NOT be observed if the intervention had no benefit whatsoever. So p < .000000000000000001 means it is virtually certain, statistically, that the TM intervention caused the war deaths to fall 76%.
:Non-TM peer review editors confirm: In TM crime reduction studies, other possible causes (weekends, holidays, weather, police procedures, government initiatives, etc.) are statistically controlled for.
:Non-TM peer review editors confirm: TM peace intervention studies are announced (predicted) ahead of time (before the TM intervention).
:To sum up, non-TM peer review editors confirm: Using the compound probability model , cross-lagged panel correlation (CLPC), Box-Jenkins ARIMA impact assessment, transfer function analyses, the Akaike Information Criterion (AIC), Liu’s linear transfer function (LTF), Ljung-Box Q statistic (showing joint probabilities of autocorrelations in residuals were insignificant, indicating statistical adequacies), robustness checks with “pseudovariables” (to rule out spurious effects), etc., 19 published studies indicate causality and rule out reverse causation for the TM crime reduction effect.https://istpp.org/news/2017_03-field-effects-of-consciousness-peer-reviewed-studies.html ] (]) 09:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::That crackpot institution is not a ]. --] (]) 09:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:::This Journal Of Conflict Resolution study on Yogic Flying time-lagged correlated to reduction of warfare includes authors Charles N. Alexander affiliated with Department of Psychology and Social Relations, Harvard University; and Wallace E. Larimore affiliated with Computational Engineering, Inc., Woburn, Massachusetts.
:::Please see for yourself at: </nowiki> ] (]) 09:49, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::While Charles N. Alexander did receive his , at the time of the publication of this paper he was a faculty member of the "Department of Psychology" at Maharishi University of Management, then known as Maharishi International University.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Schmidt-Wilk |first1=Jane |title=A Biographical Sketch of Charles 'Skip' Alexander (1949–1998) |journal=Journal of Adult Development|date=2000 |volume=7 |issue=4 |pages=289–290 |doi=10.1023/A:1009584000035}}</ref> The claimed contemporaneous affiliation to Harvard is evidently a disingenuous one, made to give a (false) imprimatur of legitimacy to an otherwise obviously ridiculous research study, as the subsequent points out. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 10:17, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::Thanks, but back to the specific statistics approved by the non-TM peer review editors of the Journal of Conflict Resolution. We will see that cross correlation and transfer functions are used to determine and define causal notation, commonly used in the social sciences, as in A, Yogic Flying, causing B, reduction of warfare.
:::::Cross-correlation is the measurement of how well two independent signals resemble each other, a concept also known as cross-similarity. "'''cross-correlation''' is a ] of two series as a function of the displacement of one relative to the other... It is commonly used for searching a long signal for a shorter, known feature. It has applications in ]."]] Here the pattern is when the number of Yogic Flyers reaches a threshold, A, the number of war deaths B, decline. And when the number of Yogic Flyers, A, falls below the threshold, the war deaths, B, increase.
:::::A transfer function is a convenient way to represent a linear, time-invariant system in terms of its input-output relationship. "a transfer function of a system, sub-system, or component is a mathematical function that models the system's output for each possible input. "a '''transfer function''' (also known as '''system function''' or '''network function''') of a system, sub-system, or component is a ] that ] the system's output for each possible input. "]] Here the transfer function models the system's output (war deaths) for each possible input (number of Yogic Flyers).
:::::'''"Causal notation''' is ] used to express cause and effect.
:::::"In nature and human societies, many phenomena have causal relationships where one phenomenon A (a cause) impacts another phenomenon B (an effect). Establishing causal relationships is the aim of many scientific studies across fields ranging from ] and ] to ] and ]."]] Here as Harvard trained quantum physicist John Hagelin explains, when group EEG coherence reaches a threshold (from the technology of Yogic Flying), the effect is war deaths reduce.
:::::Here is a list of the 19 peer review studies using statistics like cross-correlation and transfer functions, approved by the non-TM peer review editors, as causal notation. Please check out these mainstream journals:
:::::Assimakis P., & Dillbeck, M. C. (1995). Time series analysis of improved quality of life in Canada:  Social change, collective consciousness, and the TM-Sidhi program. ''Psychological Reports'' ''76''(3), 1171–1193.
:::::Cavanaugh, K. L., & Dillbeck, M. C. (2017a). The contribution of proposed field effects of consciousness to the prevention of U.S. accidental fatalities: Theory and empirical tests. ''Journal of Consciousness Studies,'' ''24''(1–2), 53–86.
:::::Cavanaugh, K. L, & Dillbeck, M. C. (2017b). Field effects of consciousness and reduction in U.S. urban murder rates: Evaluation of a prospective quasi-experiment. ''Journal of Health and Environmental Research, 3''(3–1), 32–43.
:::::Davies, J. L., & Alexander, C. N. (2005).  Alleviating political violence through reducing collective tension: Impact assessment analysis of the Lebanon war. ''Journal of Social Behavior and Personality,'' ''17''(1), 285–338.
:::::Dillbeck, M. C. (1990). Test of a field theory of consciousness and social change: Time series analysis of participation in the TM-Sidhi program and reduction of violent death in the U.S. ''Social Indicators Research'' ''22''(4), 399–418.  
:::::Dillbeck, M. C., Banus, C. B., Polanzi, C., & Landrith III, G. S. (1988). Test of a field model of consciousness and social change: The Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program and decreased urban crime. ''The Journal of Mind and Behavior'' ''9''(4), 457–486.
:::::Dillbeck, M. C., & Cavanaugh K. L. (2016). Societal violence and collective consciousness: Reduction of U.S. homicide and urban violent crime rates. ''SAGE Open'', ''6''(2), 1–16.
:::::Dillbeck, M. C., & Cavanaugh K. L. (2017). Group practice of the Transcendental Meditation® and TM-Sidhi® program and reductions in infant mortality and drug-related death: A quasi-experimental analysis. ''SAGE Open'', ''7''(1), 1–16.
:::::Dillbeck, M. C., Cavanaugh, K. L., Glenn, T., Orme-Johnson, D. W., & Mittlefehldt, V. (1987).  Consciousness as a field: The Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program and changes in social indicators. ''The Journal of Mind and Behavior'' ''8''(1), 67–104.
:::::Dillbeck, M. C., Landrith III, G. S., & Orme-Johnson, D. W. (1981). The Transcendental Meditation program and crime rate change in a sample of forty-eight cities. ''Journal of Crime and Justice'' ''4'', 25–45.
:::::Fergusson L. C. (2016). Vedic science-based education, poverty removal and social wellbeing: A case history of Cambodia from 1980-2015. ''Journal of Indian Education'', ''31''(4), 16-45.
:::::Hagelin, J. S., Rainforth, M.V., Orme-Johnson, D. W., Cavanaugh, K. L., Alexander, C. N., Shatkin, S. F., … Ross, E. (1999). Effects of group practice of the Transcendental Meditation program on preventing violent crime in Washington, DC: Results of the National Demonstration Project, June–July 1993. ''Social Indicators Research,'' ''47''(2), 153–201.
:::::Hatchard, G., & Cavanaugh, K. L. (2017). The effect of coherent collective consciousness on national quality of life and economic performance indicators—An analysis of the IMD index of national competitive advantage. ''Journal of Health and Environmental Research, 3''(3–1), 16–31.
:::::Hatchard, G. D., Deans, A. J., Cavanaugh, K. L., & Orme-Johnson, D. W. (1996). The Maharishi Effect: A model for social improvement. Time series analysis of a phase transition to reduced crime in Merseyside metropolitan area. ''Psychology, Crime & Law,'' ''2''(3), 165–174.  
:::::Orme-Johnson, D. W., Dillbeck, M. C., Alexander, C. N., Chandler, H. M., & Cranson, R. W. (2003). Effects of large assemblies of participants in the Transcendental Meditation® and TM-Sidhi® program on reducing international conflict and terrorism. ''Journal of Offender Rehabilitation'', ''36''(1–4), 283–302.
:::::Orme-Johnson, D. W., Alexander, C. N., & Davies, J. L. (1990). The effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field: Reply to a methodological critique. ''Journal of Conflict Resolution, 34''(4), 756–768.
:::::Orme-Johnson, D. W., Alexander, C. N., Davies, J. L., Chandler, H. M., & Larimore, W. E. (1988). International peace project in the Middle East: The effect of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field. ''Journal of Conflict Resolution'' ''32''(4), 776–812.
:::::Orme-Johnson, D. W., Dillbeck, M. C., Alexander, C. N. (2003). Effects of large assemblies of participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program on reducing international conflict and terrorism. ''Journal of Offender Rehabilitation'', ''36''(1–4), 283–302.
:::::Orme-Johnson, D. W., & Oates, R. M. (2009). A field-theoretic view of consciousness: Reply to critics. ''Journal of Scientific Exploration, 22''(3), 139–166. ] (]) 11:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
{{od|5}}
You made a claim about the authorship of the paper for which you advocate inclusion, to counter {{u|Hob Gadling}}'s pointing out, not inaccurately, that a paper emerging from such a {{tq|crackpot institution is not a ]}}. When your claim is shown to be false, you change the subject.
You've changed the subject to one which you apparently know even less about than accurately examining the authorship of a joke research study. The analysis "{{tq|commonly used in the social sciences}}" to determine causation from multiple variables is ], not cross-correlation. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 11:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::::'''INTERSUBJECT EEG COHERENCE: IS CONSCIOUSNESS A FIELD?'''
::::::As Harvard trained quantum physicist John Hagelin explains inter subject EEG coherence at a distance explains the time-lagged correlation of warfare reduction in Lebanon, from a small group of TM experts. The rise of EEG coherence in the small group, radiates out and causes other people's (warfare combatants) EEG coherence to improve. Then the warring groups become more coherent and begin to cease aggression. Hagelin says this represents a theoretic field effect propagated by the unified field of physics. This Maharishi Effect has been replicated in numerous mainstream peer review journal studies in which the editors are not practicing TM. Never the less, these brilliant editors have endorsed the experimental designs and statistical notations for causality.
::::::Abstract: EEG coherence was measured '''''between''''' pairs of three different subjects during a one-hour period practice of the Transcendental Meditation (TM) program. Coherence between subjects was evaluated for two sequential fifteen minute periods. On six experimental days, these periods preceded and then coincided with a fifteen minute period during which '''''2500''''' students participated in the TM-Sidhi program at a course over lo00 miles away. After the course had ended coherence was evaluated on six control days.
::::::It was found that intersubject coherence was generally low, between '''0.35''' and '''0.4,''' with coherence in the alpha (8-12 Hz) and beta '''(16-20''' Hz) frequencies significantly higher than at other frequencies. On the experimental days, intersubject '''EEG''' coherence increased during the experimental period relative to the fifteen minute baseline period immediately preceding the experimental period. Coherence increased significantly from baseline to experimental periods '''on''' experimental days compared with control days (p = 0.02). This effect was particularly evident in the alpha and beta frequencies. The results reinforce previous sociological studies showing decreased social disorder in the vicinity of TM and TM-Sidhi participants and are discussed in terms of a field theoretic view of consciousness. </nowiki> ] (]) 11:38, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:Maharishi International University is a 501(c)3 nonprofit university accredited by the Higher Learning Commission, not a crackpot institution. The President of MIU is Dartmouth and Harvard trained quantum physicist John Hagelin. How many presidents of other universities can come close to his scientific achievements, I ask you, Sir? "In 1992, Hagelin received a ] from the North Dallas Chamber of Commerce "for his promising work in particle physics in the development of supersymmetric grand unified field theory"...During his time at CERN, SLAC and MUM, Hagelin worked on supersymmetric extensions of the standard model and grand unification theories. His work on the ] heterotic ] is considered one of the more successful unified field theories, or "theories of everything", and was highlighted in 1991 in a cover story in '']'' magazine.
:From 1979 to 1996, Hagelin published over 70 papers about ], ], ], ] and ], most of them in academic scientific journals. He co-authored a 1983 paper in '']'', "Weak symmetry breaking by radiative corrections in broken supergravity", that became one of the 103 most-cited articles in the physical sciences in 1983 and 1984. In a 2012 interview in ''Science Watch'', co-author Keith Olive said that his work for the 1984 study was one of the areas that had given him the greatest sense of accomplishment. A 1984 paper by Hagelin and John Ellis in '']'', "Supersymmetric relics from the big bang", had been cited over 500 times by 2007."]]
:"The most common form of regression analysis is ], in which one finds the line (or a more complex ]) that most closely fits the data according to a specific mathematical criterion."]]
:Following is a link to a diagram from the Journal of Conflict Resolution study that illustrates the proposed causal notation between A, the number of TM-Sidhi participants, and B, the improved quality of life index in Israel and reduction of conflict in Lebanon. You can see the 2 lines represent the data that illustrate the time lag that B always follows A, that former President of Dartmouth, John Kemeny, defined as the requirement for causality.
:https://uk.tm.org/documents/12132/34409314/image_maharishi_effect_5.png/ ] (]) 12:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::: "The most common form of regression analysis is ], in which one finds the line (or a more complex ]) that most closely fits the data according to a specific mathematical criterion."]]
::: Here is a link illustrating 2 lines for their mathematical relation of TM-Sidhi Intervention Period and a time-lag to reduction of crime in DC. Again this is a chart illustrating causal notation defined by statistics.
::: 4,000 participants in the TM-Sidhi programme gathered in Washington DC for a six-week demonstration project in 1993. Predictions were lodged in advance with a 27-member independent review panel and advertised in the ''Washington Post.''(8) The results provide evidence of a dosage effect: when numbers participating increased, the effects were greater. Findings showed a 23.3% reduction in total violent crime during the project period, as well as increased approval ratings for President Clinton. In addition, accidents, emergency psychiatric calls, hospital trauma cases and complaints against police all decreased, while a quality of life index improved.(9,10)
::https://uk.tm.org/documents/12132/34409314/image_maharishi_effect_3.png/ ] (]) 12:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::Following is a link to a diagram that illustrates the proposed causal relationship between US per capita consumption of ] and the ] in ]. And here's one showing the relationship between the number of google searches for "best schools" and the number of ]s in ]. You can, one hopes, see the problem. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 12:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::Thank you for your very intelligent insight with these 2 diagrams showing correlations that are not causal. It is clear you perceive the correlation between Yogic Flying and war reduction as non-causal. To you and your colleague Misplaced Pages editors, Yogic Flying causing war reduction is as ridiculous as the consumption of margarine causing the Maine divorce rate or visa versa.
:::::However, as I have tried to explain, the Maharishi Effect studies always involve statistical techniques, that show a time lag between line A and line B (as in the Lebanon study), indicating causality. One precedes the other. A always precedes B. This is the requirement for causality. "In nature and human societies, many phenomena have causal relationships where one phenomenon A (a cause) impacts another phenomenon B (an effect)." Cross correlations combined with transfer functions can prove your 2 diagrams are correlated but not related causally. Whereas in the TM-Lebanon study, cross correlations combined with transfer functions prove the 2 lines are correlated but one line (A) slightly leads the other line (B) showing TM experts cause warfare reduction. A leads B. This is not true in the correlation of consumption of margarine and the Maine divorce rate. Margarine consumption, A, does not lead the Maine divorce rate, B, or visa versa. For your diagrams, A does NOT lead B.
::::: Furthermore the Maharishi Effect studies have multiple replications in many parts of the world, all indicating causality by statistical techniques.
:::::Therefore Hagelin is proposing the Maharishi Effect is a law of nature propagated by the unified field. He is proposing the coherent brain is the basis of world peace. He is saying the Maharishi Effect is evidence of the unified field, which is usually researched only in particle accelerators and atomic labs. This is one reason the TM scientists are using physics functions like cross-correlations and transfer functions. It is a coherent proposal because as I cited above inter subject EEG coherence occurs across long distances. The source of the higher brain EEG synchrony is coming from the Yogic Flying group, as measured. ] (]) 13:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::: "The most common form of regression analysis is ], in which one finds the line (or a more complex ]) that most closely fits the data according to a specific mathematical criterion."]]
::::: Here is link showing rising lines for improvement of Norway's and Sweden's economies when the Maharishi Effect Threshold was achieved.
::::: Increased national economic strength and competitiveness in New Zealand and Norway. Scores on the Institute for Management Development (IMD) Index of National Competitive Advantage increased significantly for New Zealand and Norway when the number of people practising Transcendental Meditation exceeded 1% of the national population, in comparison to 44 other developed nations over a 7-year period. Subsidiary analysis and Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) data confirmed that the observed economic improvements were unusually broad-based, sustained, and balanced in nature, with five years of high growth, low unemployment, and low inflation. For New Zealand, a cost-benefit analysis of coherence creation through Transcendental Meditation conservatively estimated the gain to the nation at $320 for every $1 invested in implementing the programme.(24
::::https://uk.tm.org/documents/12132/34409314/image_maharishi_effect_7.png/ ] (]) 12:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::::Misplaced Pages is not a platform for the propagation of credulous horseshit claiming that arse-bouncing leads to world peace. ] (]) 14:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::::{{tq|cross correlations combined with transfer functions prove the 2 lines are correlated but one line (A) slightly leads the other line (B) showing TM experts cause warfare reduction. A leads B}} One leading another does not prove anything at all. The text you posted above does prove that you do not understand statistical regression. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 15:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::::You are right the above 2 posts with 2 lines for Norway (green) and New Zealand (blue), and 2 lines for actual DC crime (red) and the time series predicted crime without creating coherence group (green) DO NOT represent linear regression because they are not lines for independent and dependent variables. Thanks for pointing it out. My mistake sorry. I admit I am not an expert in linear regression.
:::::::However, the following is correct. What I meant by A leads B in the J of Conflict Resolution is the independent variable always precedes or leads the dependent variable. In a causal correlation B always follows A. The hypothesis that A is causing B is supported if variations in A are followed in time by correlated changes in B, whereas changes in B are not followed in time by correlated changes in A. "Cross-correlations and transfer functions indicated that the group had a leading relationship to change on the quality-of-life indicators, supporting a causal interpretation."
:::::::Therefore my original edit is correct and should be posted by you under Yogic Flying please:
:::::::The Journal of Conflict Resolution, 1988, published "International Peace Project in the Middle East: The Effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field." This study indicates a small group A of Transcendental Meditation peace experts practicing Yogic Flying (the √1% of the regional population), and thereby creating more EEG coherent brains, was time-lag correlated to B, reduced warfare in Lebanon. Cross-lagged panel correlation compares the synchronous correlation (the correlation between two variables at the same time) with the lagged correlations (the correlation of a variable with another variable at earlier and later times). The hypothesis that A is causing B is supported if variations in A are followed in time by correlated changes in B, whereas changes in B are not followed in time by correlated changes in A. "Cross-correlations and transfer functions indicated that the group had a leading relationship to change on the quality-of-life indicators, supporting a causal interpretation." </nowiki>
:::::::I wear a Christ cross and Mother Mary medallion but find no conflict in practicing TM. I would not believe the Maharishi Effect either if it were not for about 40 studies showing causality by cross-correlations, transfer functions, etc. My friend Father Thomas Keating, Abbot of St. Joseph’s Abbey, Spencer, MA, who practiced Transcendental Meditation (TM), and lived to be 95, believed in what Lord Christ said, “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you,” and, “Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven and all else shall be added unto thee.” Perhaps he could better explain the Maharishi Effect than I? ] (]) 20:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Misplaced Pages isn't the slightest bit interested in what religious symbols you wear, or what your personal religious beliefs are. You aren't going to be permitted to add this credulous horseshit to the article for the same reasons that all the previous promoters of said horseshit haven't been. Feel free to read the archives (linked at the top of this page) for past attempts, and for why they have not been accepted. Or alternatively, read ] - this is an essay, rather than policy, but it summarises nicely the opinions of Misplaced Pages contributors at large, and forms the background to the policies which prevent the article being used to promote arse-bouncing for world peace. ] (]) 21:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
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State of the research

I'm adding this so we can begin to look at potential updates to the research on TM. I had requested above we not make changes until Doc James is back on Misplaced Pages or 6 months to give him a chance to be part of this. I can't enforce this of course, but I am complying with this and hope others will too. I can add results from newer research if wanted.

Problematic sources


Transcendental meditation for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease (2017)

Louise HartleyAngelique MavrodarisNadine FlowersEdzard ErnstKaren Ree

Withdrawn

From the review. This Cochrane Review has been superseded. See 'Meditation for the prevention and management of heart disease'. The editorial group responsible for this previously published document have withdrawn it from publication.


Meditation therapy for anxiety disorders (2006)

T Krisanaprakornkit 1, W Krisanaprakornkit, N Piyavhatkul, M Laopaiboon•"

  Limited to two studies and only one on TM (Review of one primary study). Authors consider the review limited in scope/more research needed.


Meditation practices for health: state of the research. (2007)

Maria B Ospina, Kenneth Bond, Mohammad Karkhaneh, Lisa Tjosvold, Ben Vandermeer, Yuanyuan Liang, Liza Bialy, Nicola Hooton, Nina Buscemi, Donna M Dryden, and  Terry P Klassen

Archived Archived for historical reference only


More recent review/clinical updates


Transcendental meditation for lowering blood pressure: An overview of systematic reviews and meta-analyses (2017)

SooLiang Ooi, Melissa Giovino, Sok Cheon Pak


•First-line Psychotherapies for Military-Related PTSD (2020) /Clinical update (2020)

Maria M. Steenkamp, PhD1; Brett T. Litz, PhD2,3; Charles R. Marmar, MD4

Could you point to the content

Could anyone point to the section of the review that specifically indicates this edit:

"There is no good evidence TM is of any use for reducing anxiety."

The review, author-conclusions states,"The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders. Transcendental meditation is comparable with other kinds of relaxation therapies in reducing anxiety,...

I see two conclusions in reference to TM: One, that a small number of studies doesn't indicate conclusions for mediation therapy in general. And two, that TM compares to other kinds of relaxation therapies.

We could say," A 2006 review indicates no conclusions could be drawn on meditation as therapy, including TM, because of too few studies investigated.

The date is pertinent as is the reason the review cannot draw conclusions.

I'd note per MEDRS,WP:MEDDATE that this source, at 2006, is outdated. There are more recent, pertinent, MEDRS compliant sources than a source that is 18 years old, with two studies and only one that pertains to the topic of this article, and that states, no conclusions could be drawn.

There is no evidence, per this review, that the small number of studies reviewed can lead to evidence that meditation therapy is effective in anxiety reduction. The review does not say is of no use. That is an extrapolation, and not accurate per the review we are looking at.

Littleolive oil (talk) 16:51, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

If the source says evidence does "not permit any conclusions to be drawn" that equates to "no good evidence" (in part because the default assumption is 'no effect'). Per WP:MEDSAY it's best not to include the gubbins about what the document type is. Cochrane reviews are exempt from WP:MEDDATE because the assumption is they update when the underlying evidence changes; this is set out in WP:MEDRS. Bon courage (talk) 16:58, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
I agree and have updated the article to reflect this. Littleolive oil (talk) 17:14, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Add: per your comment on Cochrane: There is much research now on meditation techniques that indicate reduction of anxiety. This review is poor in terms of the reviews and also in date. Maybe take look at the state of the research in meditation techniques. A lot has changed in almost 20 years. The same is true of anything we might call Fringe. What was fringe 20 years ago may now be mainstream. That's the nature of science and research. Salk research on the polio vaccines would by our standards have been considered Fringe at one time, but now with research is no longer so. Littleolive oil (talk) 17:23, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Really? This is a page specifically about Transcendental Meditation. From a quick look the research scene is moribund (mindfulness is the new kid on the block). Which are the WP:BESTSOURCES on TM and anxiety? Bon courage (talk) 17:30, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
I suggest you look deeper. And if you're in a looking mood you might want to check the Mindfulness article, a conglomerate of mindfulness related content rather than anything clearly delineated. The Effects of Meditation article is wracked with non- MEDRS sources and is clearly a mindfulness-dominated, POV article. I don't edit Misplaced Pages much anymore. Too Busy. And I don't try try to add new content or update this article in terms of research. There is a point where the fight isn't worth it. There is research being done on many meditation techniques from what I've seen. New kid might be a red flag, though; how much is MEDRS compliant? I am busy again for quite a while but I'll see about adding content on the state of the research on this article topic. It's not a competition. Meditation has become mainstream and there has to be room to accurately describe any forms that have verifiable, reliable sources. Littleolive oil (talk) 17:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Also: Health effects section is organized to indicate the history of the research given this meditation has a relatively long history in research and the article follows that history. So the date of the Cochran review should be added back in. Right now there’s a bit of a gaping hole where research date was removed. Littleolive oil (talk) 19:28, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


Reversion of date with out summary comment

Bon Courage. You've reverted with out any reason given. As I said here, the section is organized by date. You've removed the date. We do have another option. The review we are discussing has only one study on TM. Th authors conclude that with only that one study and whatever issues that study had no conclusions could be drawn. So per our own MEDRS guidelines this isn't a legitimate review since we are looking for replicated results. The whole thing should probably be removed. Further and again the review itself is outdated.

I have to wonder why you're insistent in removing the date and ignoring context. I refuse to get into some weird edit warring situation so if you honestly and with out bias feel it is appropriate to exclude the date when information has been ordered historically and since you also seem to have no reason to make that deletion I will leave the edit. I can't argue with what is illogical. If you do have a bias do you really think our readers are stupid enough to wonder about the bald statement now in the article which makes no logical sense. Littleolive oil (talk) 21:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

See above where I put "Cochrane reviews are exempt from WP:MEDDATE because the assumption is they update when the underlying evidence changes". So the assumption is what Cochrane says is current. I'd suggest you actually engage with points made. The rest of that section needs to be made compliant with WP:MEDSAY too. If you think that Cochrane rewiews are "not legitimate" that is not something Misplaced Pages can fix. Bon courage (talk) 21:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Ah well. You've sidestepped the points I made-red herring. You reverted the date of the review with out reason- no real edit summary given. And noting the information is not describing the source; this is supposedly a reliable source and this is just content. You've twisted WP:MEDSAY. Why are you afraid of adding a date? You've decided the research is moribund. I'm sure it is in this article because editors trot along and remove whatever doesn't suit their positions as you have done. You've worded the review inaccurately. I have no problem with adding whatever the review says but I do have problems with what appears to be illogical at best and biased at worst reading of the review. I'm no stranger to this kind of argument, and I know the only way too deal with it is to walk away. Should I add more research of which there is quite a bit, as the research on all forms of meditation increases yearly when this is what one deals with? You win! I don't deal with bullying or arguments that sidestep the issues. There's no point. Littleolive oil (talk) 22:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Olive, it is really impossible to respond meaningfully to that. Bon courage (talk) 06:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: Cochrane is not the only reliable;e source. Littleolive oil (talk) 00:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

What, for TM & anxiety specifically? It's not obvious that's the case. Bon courage (talk) 06:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sire what point you're making?
You're probably right. I really don't want to be here haggling over this article again. So my responses may not be complete. As perspective. I am a strict, maybe rigid, supporter of MEDRS. So, the subtle implication that I am supporting bias is frustrating. This article is not moribund, it's stable after years of contention. Let's see if I can make my position clear, as apparently I haven't. My perceptions.

The source in question is poor per MEDRS. It includes 2 studies, only one is about TM. MEDRS is meant to protect the reader from "Fringe" information- information that may with time become mainstream, but not now. As long as we have physicians who use Misplaced Pages for diagnosis( I'd head for the door if my physician did this), we have a responsibility to include only replicated studies/information. This review, such as it is, is not showing replicated information.

The source very clearly says,"The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders. Transcendental meditation is comparable with other kinds of relaxation therapies in reducing anxiety,..." the source does not make an overarching statement about anxiety and TM. This article is, however, making an over arching statement; we are misrepresenting the source in part by deliberately excluding context: The small number of studies does not allow any conclusions to be drawn. TM is comparable....

The section has been organized by date. WP:MEDSAY does not forbid basic information about the source being used. Using WP:MEDSAY as some kind of edit summary seems disingenuous to me. There is implied consensus in a years long stable article that you ignored in favor of your own edit leaving a bald, dateless inaccurate statement.

The MEDRS position would be to remove the source. There is no replication, and there was not enough information to draw any conclusions.

Finally, as an experienced editor you know that the only way I can deal further with this issue is to edit war and to enter the morass that follows that kind of contention. I attempted to compromise by agreeing with an edit you made, whether I bought the argument or not, but you went further with out agreement. I either walk away or am forced into an edit war. Is there frustration at being forced into such a position. Yes. But I don't care enough to engage in that kind of mess.

The article as it stands now is weaker than it was, if MEDRS is a legitimate standard. I think it is. Littleolive oil (talk) 17:48, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Finally, as an experienced editor you know that the only way I can deal further with this issue is to edit war ← not at all, you could raise a query at WT:MED. But if you are going to argue that a Cochrane review is poor or fringe you'd better have a strong case! It is hallmark of good systematic reviews that they exclude poor sources; poor reviews tend to include all sorts of crap. But surely the main point is that this is the ONLY review of TM/Anxiety in existence. Unless you know of others? Bon courage (talk) 18:28, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
You've sidestepped once again: Why did you remove a date? And, the content you support does not faithfully reflect the source.
No one suggested Cochrane in and of itself is not reliable. No source is valuable to us unless it specifically supports specific content and complies with our standards.
No one suggested the review is fringe.
I don't have to go to a notice board to know the content you are supporting does not reflect the source. Further NB are often a time sink, and the positions raised there are not binding on any article. Often they are a waste of time, of which I have little, in part because they are not binding
For starters, please look at the rest of the reviews in the section for TM and anxiety.
I've done what I can do here. Best wishes. Littleolive oil (talk) 16:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
A date is only needed if the information is time-bound in some way. Has the view on TM/Anxiety changed? Per WP:MEDSAY we should just deliver the knowledge payload without needless detail. The conclusion of the review says "The small number of studies included in this review do not permit any conclusions to be drawn on the effectiveness of meditation therapy for anxiety disorders" which we summarize well (i.e. no good evidence to support). As to other sources: good tip. That Goyal source is comparatively recent (2014), but was badly mis-summarized. Bon courage (talk) 16:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Maharishi effect

"The square root of 1%" is 10%. I'm not sure what 0.00016% is in relation to 1%, but it's not the square root. 2600:1700:37E0:6890:7CCA:BDEB:A173:B2C8 (talk) 18:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

What they mean is: the square root of (one per cent (1%) of the population), not (the square root of one per cent (1%)) of the population. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:02, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
I've rewritten that part of the article, omitting the 0.00016%. It appears that the global population was ~4 billion in 1974, 1% of that is 40 million, and √(40 million) is 6324.5553 (0.000158% of 4 billion) 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talkedits) 16:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Yogic Flying

The Journal of Conflict Resolution, 1988, published "International Peace Project in the Middle East: The Effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field." This study indicates a small group A of Transcendental Meditation peace experts practicing Yogic Flying (the √1% of the regional population), and thereby creating more EEG coherent brains, was time-lag correlated to B, reduced warfare in Lebanon. Cross-lagged panel correlation compares the synchronous correlation (the correlation between two variables at the same time) with the lagged correlations (the correlation of a variable with another variable at earlier and later times). The hypothesis that A is causing B is supported if variations in A are followed in time by correlated changes in B, whereas changes in B are not followed in time by correlated changes in A. "Cross-correlations and transfer functions indicated that the group had a leading relationship to change on the quality-of-life indicators, supporting a causal interpretation." Will M Davis (talk) 07:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Amazing bollocks eh! But why raise it? Bon courage (talk) 07:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Dear Editor,
Here is further evidence why you post my edit from the Journal of Conflict Resolution.
“A causal law of nature means no more and no less than that A is always followed by B (Kemeny, 1959),” said Dr. John G. Kemeny, former colleague of Einstein, and former President of Dartmouth College. This causal law satisfies the requirement made by non-TM peer review editors that TM causes the creation of a EEG coherent brain, increased IQ and intelligence scores, increased moral and ethical reasoning scores, more loving behavior, reduced school suspensions and expulsions, fewer hospitalizations in all disease categories, a longer average life span of about 15 years, relief from suicidal PTSD by veterans, and when only 1% of society practices TM, significantly decreased accident rates, decreased crime rates, and improved economic indicators like increased gross domestic product, and rising international stock markets.
Non-TM peer review editors confirm: The chance of error in the TM crime reduction studies, is only p < .0000000000000000001. In normal studies p < .01 means there is an excellent chance — 99 per cent — that the difference in outcomes would NOT be observed if the intervention had no benefit whatsoever. So p < .000000000000000001 means it is virtually certain, statistically, that the TM intervention caused the war deaths to fall 76%.
Non-TM peer review editors confirm: In TM crime reduction studies, other possible causes (weekends, holidays, weather, police procedures, government initiatives, etc.) are statistically controlled for.
Non-TM peer review editors confirm: TM peace intervention studies are announced (predicted) ahead of time (before the TM intervention).
To sum up, non-TM peer review editors confirm: Using the compound probability model , cross-lagged panel correlation (CLPC), Box-Jenkins ARIMA impact assessment, transfer function analyses, the Akaike Information Criterion (AIC), Liu’s linear transfer function (LTF), Ljung-Box Q statistic (showing joint probabilities of autocorrelations in residuals were insignificant, indicating statistical adequacies), robustness checks with “pseudovariables” (to rule out spurious effects), etc., 19 published studies indicate causality and rule out reverse causation for the TM crime reduction effect.https://istpp.org/news/2017_03-field-effects-of-consciousness-peer-reviewed-studies.html Will M Davis (talk) 09:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
That crackpot institution is not a reliable source. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
This Journal Of Conflict Resolution study on Yogic Flying time-lagged correlated to reduction of warfare includes authors Charles N. Alexander affiliated with Department of Psychology and Social Relations, Harvard University; and Wallace E. Larimore affiliated with Computational Engineering, Inc., Woburn, Massachusetts.
Please see for yourself at: Will M Davis (talk) 09:49, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
While Charles N. Alexander did receive his PhD from Harvard, at the time of the publication of this paper he was a faculty member of the "Department of Psychology" at Maharishi University of Management, then known as Maharishi International University. The claimed contemporaneous affiliation to Harvard is evidently a disingenuous one, made to give a (false) imprimatur of legitimacy to an otherwise obviously ridiculous research study, as the subsequent critique points out. Cambial foliar❧ 10:17, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, but back to the specific statistics approved by the non-TM peer review editors of the Journal of Conflict Resolution. We will see that cross correlation and transfer functions are used to determine and define causal notation, commonly used in the social sciences, as in A, Yogic Flying, causing B, reduction of warfare.
Cross-correlation is the measurement of how well two independent signals resemble each other, a concept also known as cross-similarity. "cross-correlation is a measure of similarity of two series as a function of the displacement of one relative to the other... It is commonly used for searching a long signal for a shorter, known feature. It has applications in pattern recognition." Here the pattern is when the number of Yogic Flyers reaches a threshold, A, the number of war deaths B, decline. And when the number of Yogic Flyers, A, falls below the threshold, the war deaths, B, increase.
A transfer function is a convenient way to represent a linear, time-invariant system in terms of its input-output relationship. "a transfer function of a system, sub-system, or component is a mathematical function that models the system's output for each possible input. "a transfer function (also known as system function or network function) of a system, sub-system, or component is a mathematical function that models the system's output for each possible input. " Here the transfer function models the system's output (war deaths) for each possible input (number of Yogic Flyers).
"Causal notation is notation used to express cause and effect.
"In nature and human societies, many phenomena have causal relationships where one phenomenon A (a cause) impacts another phenomenon B (an effect). Establishing causal relationships is the aim of many scientific studies across fields ranging from biology and physics to social sciences and economics." Here as Harvard trained quantum physicist John Hagelin explains, when group EEG coherence reaches a threshold (from the technology of Yogic Flying), the effect is war deaths reduce.
Here is a list of the 19 peer review studies using statistics like cross-correlation and transfer functions, approved by the non-TM peer review editors, as causal notation. Please check out these mainstream journals:
Assimakis P., & Dillbeck, M. C. (1995). Time series analysis of improved quality of life in Canada:  Social change, collective consciousness, and the TM-Sidhi program. Psychological Reports 76(3), 1171–1193.
Cavanaugh, K. L., & Dillbeck, M. C. (2017a). The contribution of proposed field effects of consciousness to the prevention of U.S. accidental fatalities: Theory and empirical tests. Journal of Consciousness Studies, 24(1–2), 53–86.
Cavanaugh, K. L, & Dillbeck, M. C. (2017b). Field effects of consciousness and reduction in U.S. urban murder rates: Evaluation of a prospective quasi-experiment. Journal of Health and Environmental Research, 3(3–1), 32–43.
Davies, J. L., & Alexander, C. N. (2005).  Alleviating political violence through reducing collective tension: Impact assessment analysis of the Lebanon war. Journal of Social Behavior and Personality, 17(1), 285–338.
Dillbeck, M. C. (1990). Test of a field theory of consciousness and social change: Time series analysis of participation in the TM-Sidhi program and reduction of violent death in the U.S. Social Indicators Research 22(4), 399–418.  
Dillbeck, M. C., Banus, C. B., Polanzi, C., & Landrith III, G. S. (1988). Test of a field model of consciousness and social change: The Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program and decreased urban crime. The Journal of Mind and Behavior 9(4), 457–486.
Dillbeck, M. C., & Cavanaugh K. L. (2016). Societal violence and collective consciousness: Reduction of U.S. homicide and urban violent crime rates. SAGE Open, 6(2), 1–16.
Dillbeck, M. C., & Cavanaugh K. L. (2017). Group practice of the Transcendental Meditation® and TM-Sidhi® program and reductions in infant mortality and drug-related death: A quasi-experimental analysis. SAGE Open, 7(1), 1–16.
Dillbeck, M. C., Cavanaugh, K. L., Glenn, T., Orme-Johnson, D. W., & Mittlefehldt, V. (1987).  Consciousness as a field: The Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program and changes in social indicators. The Journal of Mind and Behavior 8(1), 67–104.
Dillbeck, M. C., Landrith III, G. S., & Orme-Johnson, D. W. (1981). The Transcendental Meditation program and crime rate change in a sample of forty-eight cities. Journal of Crime and Justice 4, 25–45.
Fergusson L. C. (2016). Vedic science-based education, poverty removal and social wellbeing: A case history of Cambodia from 1980-2015. Journal of Indian Education, 31(4), 16-45.
Hagelin, J. S., Rainforth, M.V., Orme-Johnson, D. W., Cavanaugh, K. L., Alexander, C. N., Shatkin, S. F., … Ross, E. (1999). Effects of group practice of the Transcendental Meditation program on preventing violent crime in Washington, DC: Results of the National Demonstration Project, June–July 1993. Social Indicators Research, 47(2), 153–201.
Hatchard, G., & Cavanaugh, K. L. (2017). The effect of coherent collective consciousness on national quality of life and economic performance indicators—An analysis of the IMD index of national competitive advantage. Journal of Health and Environmental Research, 3(3–1), 16–31.
Hatchard, G. D., Deans, A. J., Cavanaugh, K. L., & Orme-Johnson, D. W. (1996). The Maharishi Effect: A model for social improvement. Time series analysis of a phase transition to reduced crime in Merseyside metropolitan area. Psychology, Crime & Law, 2(3), 165–174.  
Orme-Johnson, D. W., Dillbeck, M. C., Alexander, C. N., Chandler, H. M., & Cranson, R. W. (2003). Effects of large assemblies of participants in the Transcendental Meditation® and TM-Sidhi® program on reducing international conflict and terrorism. Journal of Offender Rehabilitation, 36(1–4), 283–302.
Orme-Johnson, D. W., Alexander, C. N., & Davies, J. L. (1990). The effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field: Reply to a methodological critique. Journal of Conflict Resolution, 34(4), 756–768.
Orme-Johnson, D. W., Alexander, C. N., Davies, J. L., Chandler, H. M., & Larimore, W. E. (1988). International peace project in the Middle East: The effect of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field. Journal of Conflict Resolution 32(4), 776–812.
Orme-Johnson, D. W., Dillbeck, M. C., Alexander, C. N. (2003). Effects of large assemblies of participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program on reducing international conflict and terrorism. Journal of Offender Rehabilitation, 36(1–4), 283–302.
Orme-Johnson, D. W., & Oates, R. M. (2009). A field-theoretic view of consciousness: Reply to critics. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 22(3), 139–166. Will M Davis (talk) 11:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

You made a claim about the authorship of the paper for which you advocate inclusion, to counter Hob Gadling's pointing out, not inaccurately, that a paper emerging from such a crackpot institution is not a reliable source. When your claim is shown to be false, you change the subject. You've changed the subject to one which you apparently know even less about than accurately examining the authorship of a joke research study. The analysis "commonly used in the social sciences" to determine causation from multiple variables is regression analysis, not cross-correlation. Cambial foliar❧ 11:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

INTERSUBJECT EEG COHERENCE: IS CONSCIOUSNESS A FIELD?
As Harvard trained quantum physicist John Hagelin explains inter subject EEG coherence at a distance explains the time-lagged correlation of warfare reduction in Lebanon, from a small group of TM experts. The rise of EEG coherence in the small group, radiates out and causes other people's (warfare combatants) EEG coherence to improve. Then the warring groups become more coherent and begin to cease aggression. Hagelin says this represents a theoretic field effect propagated by the unified field of physics. This Maharishi Effect has been replicated in numerous mainstream peer review journal studies in which the editors are not practicing TM. Never the less, these brilliant editors have endorsed the experimental designs and statistical notations for causality.
Abstract: EEG coherence was measured between pairs of three different subjects during a one-hour period practice of the Transcendental Meditation (TM) program. Coherence between subjects was evaluated for two sequential fifteen minute periods. On six experimental days, these periods preceded and then coincided with a fifteen minute period during which 2500 students participated in the TM-Sidhi program at a course over lo00 miles away. After the course had ended coherence was evaluated on six control days.
It was found that intersubject coherence was generally low, between 0.35 and 0.4, with coherence in the alpha (8-12 Hz) and beta (16-20 Hz) frequencies significantly higher than at other frequencies. On the experimental days, intersubject EEG coherence increased during the experimental period relative to the fifteen minute baseline period immediately preceding the experimental period. Coherence increased significantly from baseline to experimental periods on experimental days compared with control days (p = 0.02). This effect was particularly evident in the alpha and beta frequencies. The results reinforce previous sociological studies showing decreased social disorder in the vicinity of TM and TM-Sidhi participants and are discussed in terms of a field theoretic view of consciousness. Will M Davis (talk) 11:38, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Maharishi International University is a 501(c)3 nonprofit university accredited by the Higher Learning Commission, not a crackpot institution. The President of MIU is Dartmouth and Harvard trained quantum physicist John Hagelin. How many presidents of other universities can come close to his scientific achievements, I ask you, Sir? "In 1992, Hagelin received a Kilby International Award from the North Dallas Chamber of Commerce "for his promising work in particle physics in the development of supersymmetric grand unified field theory"...During his time at CERN, SLAC and MUM, Hagelin worked on supersymmetric extensions of the standard model and grand unification theories. His work on the flipped SU(5) heterotic superstring theory is considered one of the more successful unified field theories, or "theories of everything", and was highlighted in 1991 in a cover story in Discover magazine.
From 1979 to 1996, Hagelin published over 70 papers about particle physics, electroweak unification, grand unification, supersymmetry and cosmology, most of them in academic scientific journals. He co-authored a 1983 paper in Physics Letters B, "Weak symmetry breaking by radiative corrections in broken supergravity", that became one of the 103 most-cited articles in the physical sciences in 1983 and 1984. In a 2012 interview in Science Watch, co-author Keith Olive said that his work for the 1984 study was one of the areas that had given him the greatest sense of accomplishment. A 1984 paper by Hagelin and John Ellis in Nuclear Physics B, "Supersymmetric relics from the big bang", had been cited over 500 times by 2007."
"The most common form of regression analysis is linear regression, in which one finds the line (or a more complex linear combination) that most closely fits the data according to a specific mathematical criterion."
Following is a link to a diagram from the Journal of Conflict Resolution study that illustrates the proposed causal notation between A, the number of TM-Sidhi participants, and B, the improved quality of life index in Israel and reduction of conflict in Lebanon. You can see the 2 lines represent the data that illustrate the time lag that B always follows A, that former President of Dartmouth, John Kemeny, defined as the requirement for causality.
https://uk.tm.org/documents/12132/34409314/image_maharishi_effect_5.png/ Will M Davis (talk) 12:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
"The most common form of regression analysis is linear regression, in which one finds the line (or a more complex linear combination) that most closely fits the data according to a specific mathematical criterion."
Here is a link illustrating 2 lines for their mathematical relation of TM-Sidhi Intervention Period and a time-lag to reduction of crime in DC. Again this is a chart illustrating causal notation defined by statistics.
4,000 participants in the TM-Sidhi programme gathered in Washington DC for a six-week demonstration project in 1993. Predictions were lodged in advance with a 27-member independent review panel and advertised in the Washington Post.(8) The results provide evidence of a dosage effect: when numbers participating increased, the effects were greater. Findings showed a 23.3% reduction in total violent crime during the project period, as well as increased approval ratings for President Clinton. In addition, accidents, emergency psychiatric calls, hospital trauma cases and complaints against police all decreased, while a quality of life index improved.(9,10)
https://uk.tm.org/documents/12132/34409314/image_maharishi_effect_3.png/ Will M Davis (talk) 12:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Following is a link to a diagram that illustrates the proposed causal relationship between US per capita consumption of margarine and the divorce rate in Maine. And here's one showing the relationship between the number of google searches for "best schools" and the number of security guards in Pennsylvania. You can, one hopes, see the problem. Cambial foliar❧ 12:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for your very intelligent insight with these 2 diagrams showing correlations that are not causal. It is clear you perceive the correlation between Yogic Flying and war reduction as non-causal. To you and your colleague Misplaced Pages editors, Yogic Flying causing war reduction is as ridiculous as the consumption of margarine causing the Maine divorce rate or visa versa.
However, as I have tried to explain, the Maharishi Effect studies always involve statistical techniques, that show a time lag between line A and line B (as in the Lebanon study), indicating causality. One precedes the other. A always precedes B. This is the requirement for causality. "In nature and human societies, many phenomena have causal relationships where one phenomenon A (a cause) impacts another phenomenon B (an effect)." Cross correlations combined with transfer functions can prove your 2 diagrams are correlated but not related causally. Whereas in the TM-Lebanon study, cross correlations combined with transfer functions prove the 2 lines are correlated but one line (A) slightly leads the other line (B) showing TM experts cause warfare reduction. A leads B. This is not true in the correlation of consumption of margarine and the Maine divorce rate. Margarine consumption, A, does not lead the Maine divorce rate, B, or visa versa. For your diagrams, A does NOT lead B.
Furthermore the Maharishi Effect studies have multiple replications in many parts of the world, all indicating causality by statistical techniques.
Therefore Hagelin is proposing the Maharishi Effect is a law of nature propagated by the unified field. He is proposing the coherent brain is the basis of world peace. He is saying the Maharishi Effect is evidence of the unified field, which is usually researched only in particle accelerators and atomic labs. This is one reason the TM scientists are using physics functions like cross-correlations and transfer functions. It is a coherent proposal because as I cited above inter subject EEG coherence occurs across long distances. The source of the higher brain EEG synchrony is coming from the Yogic Flying group, as measured. Will M Davis (talk) 13:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
"The most common form of regression analysis is linear regression, in which one finds the line (or a more complex linear combination) that most closely fits the data according to a specific mathematical criterion."
Here is link showing rising lines for improvement of Norway's and Sweden's economies when the Maharishi Effect Threshold was achieved.
Increased national economic strength and competitiveness in New Zealand and Norway. Scores on the Institute for Management Development (IMD) Index of National Competitive Advantage increased significantly for New Zealand and Norway when the number of people practising Transcendental Meditation exceeded 1% of the national population, in comparison to 44 other developed nations over a 7-year period. Subsidiary analysis and Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) data confirmed that the observed economic improvements were unusually broad-based, sustained, and balanced in nature, with five years of high growth, low unemployment, and low inflation. For New Zealand, a cost-benefit analysis of coherence creation through Transcendental Meditation conservatively estimated the gain to the nation at $320 for every $1 invested in implementing the programme.(24
https://uk.tm.org/documents/12132/34409314/image_maharishi_effect_7.png/ Will M Davis (talk) 12:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages is not a platform for the propagation of credulous horseshit claiming that arse-bouncing leads to world peace. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
cross correlations combined with transfer functions prove the 2 lines are correlated but one line (A) slightly leads the other line (B) showing TM experts cause warfare reduction. A leads B One leading another does not prove anything at all. The text you posted above does prove that you do not understand statistical regression. Cambial foliar❧ 15:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
You are right the above 2 posts with 2 lines for Norway (green) and New Zealand (blue), and 2 lines for actual DC crime (red) and the time series predicted crime without creating coherence group (green) DO NOT represent linear regression because they are not lines for independent and dependent variables. Thanks for pointing it out. My mistake sorry. I admit I am not an expert in linear regression.
However, the following is correct. What I meant by A leads B in the J of Conflict Resolution is the independent variable always precedes or leads the dependent variable. In a causal correlation B always follows A. The hypothesis that A is causing B is supported if variations in A are followed in time by correlated changes in B, whereas changes in B are not followed in time by correlated changes in A. "Cross-correlations and transfer functions indicated that the group had a leading relationship to change on the quality-of-life indicators, supporting a causal interpretation."
Therefore my original edit is correct and should be posted by you under Yogic Flying please:
The Journal of Conflict Resolution, 1988, published "International Peace Project in the Middle East: The Effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field." This study indicates a small group A of Transcendental Meditation peace experts practicing Yogic Flying (the √1% of the regional population), and thereby creating more EEG coherent brains, was time-lag correlated to B, reduced warfare in Lebanon. Cross-lagged panel correlation compares the synchronous correlation (the correlation between two variables at the same time) with the lagged correlations (the correlation of a variable with another variable at earlier and later times). The hypothesis that A is causing B is supported if variations in A are followed in time by correlated changes in B, whereas changes in B are not followed in time by correlated changes in A. "Cross-correlations and transfer functions indicated that the group had a leading relationship to change on the quality-of-life indicators, supporting a causal interpretation."
I wear a Christ cross and Mother Mary medallion but find no conflict in practicing TM. I would not believe the Maharishi Effect either if it were not for about 40 studies showing causality by cross-correlations, transfer functions, etc. My friend Father Thomas Keating, Abbot of St. Joseph’s Abbey, Spencer, MA, who practiced Transcendental Meditation (TM), and lived to be 95, believed in what Lord Christ said, “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you,” and, “Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven and all else shall be added unto thee.” Perhaps he could better explain the Maharishi Effect than I? Will M Davis (talk) 20:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages isn't the slightest bit interested in what religious symbols you wear, or what your personal religious beliefs are. You aren't going to be permitted to add this credulous horseshit to the article for the same reasons that all the previous promoters of said horseshit haven't been. Feel free to read the archives (linked at the top of this page) for past attempts, and for why they have not been accepted. Or alternatively, read Misplaced Pages:Lunatic charlatans - this is an essay, rather than policy, but it summarises nicely the opinions of Misplaced Pages contributors at large, and forms the background to the policies which prevent the article being used to promote arse-bouncing for world peace. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. Schmidt-Wilk, Jane (2000). "A Biographical Sketch of Charles 'Skip' Alexander (1949–1998)". Journal of Adult Development. 7 (4): 289–290. doi:10.1023/A:1009584000035.
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