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== Criticism ==

A CRITICISM SECTION IS VERY MUCH NEEDED. Please understand history is not black and white but a series of competeing narratives. Currently you only have a Zionist persepective. Please consider others as well from the left-Israel camp as well as from the Middle East. Here is some information to add:

Within Israel as well as abroad Ariel Sharon has had criticism for his involvement in the 1953 Al-Burej Massacre. According to Ilan Pappe - a revisionist Israeli historian - in his "A History of Modern Palestine" (2nd edition Cambridge University Press 2006 p. 331)
"Served in the Alexandroni unit in the 1948 war. Founded commando unit 101 in teh early 1950s, which carried out retaliatory missions against Palestinian targets... Was minister of agriculture, housing, and of defence until the Kahan Committee found him indirectly responsible for the Sabra and Shatilla massacres. "

Likewise his involvement in the War for Israeli Independence or known as Nabka (or Catastrophe) in the Arab World had him directly implicated in the al-Burej massacre where troops under his lead open fired on refugees - leading to the deaths of between 20 - 50 civilians(link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/12354924/Israeli-Special-Forces-Sayeret).


Ariel Sharon is a highly controversial figure. I mean Noam Chomsky has called him a 'mass murderer', and yet there is no section on his page for criticisms. Come on guys we can do better than this. If you disagree with Chomsky then put in a slanted crit section ;)



But there should at least be one. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 08:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


The sabra and shatilla massacres were arabs firing upon other arabs. The Lebanese had had enough of the so-called "palestinians" persecuting and murdering their people, and they were well aware that they had just arrived in Lebanon due to being expelled by Jordan during Black September for attempting to form a state within a state. Obviously the Israel's War of Independence is known as a catastrophe in the arab world, the arabs started a horrendously disproportionate war against a barely breached Jewish country, and lost! <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 10:21, 13 February 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


== inaccurate Rank ==


The picture under unit 101 states that Sharon is a major, but he is in fact, a lieutenant colonel in the picture ] (]) 02:54, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
'''Criticism section strongly seconded.'''
Additionally, mere criticism regarding his medical care far from cuts it. As for that particular subsection I fail to see how his being driven to hospital rather than airlifted or him being prescribed a Heparin-type medication is truly notable in an encyclopedic article.


== Birth name ==
If a separate section denoting 'criticisms' (sourced facts, of course) were strenuously objected to I would be satisfied if the information were simply worked into the article itself. As it is now, parts of it almost read like a hagiography -- ''very'' uncyclopedic!


Other Zionist luminaries have their European birth names listed at the top of the page, but Sharon/Schneiderman does not. One way or the other, this should be made congruous across all such articles. ] (]) 15:37, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
In any event, the U.N. concluding the Sabra and Shatila massacres not only directly involved Sharon but calling it a ''genocide'' (section D of Resolution 37/123) --not to mention Sharon's calling ''all'' of the survivors: man, woman, child and baby "terrorists"-- is definitely biographically notable and should be somewhere in this article. Even the Israeli found that Ariel Sharon "bears personal responsibility"; information which is referenced right on Misplaced Pages under its ]


:I am assuming his surname was changed before he was born, so it is not included. For example Netanyahu and Gants do not have their true names mentioned, but their parents do, as well as early settlers who became politicians like Golda mabovitch, Szymon Perski, and David Grün ] (]) 05:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Acutally it is neutral. sharon is a war hero which is not mentioned at all. Only terrorist supporter would call him a war criminal. We should put a war hero and statesman in the intro.] (]) 22:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


:: He was born Ariel Scheinerman (not Schneiderman). This is in multiple obituaries published on his death, and in several books. A good source is David Landau's biography "ARIK", where it is said that Ben-Gurion insisted on him changing his name. Landau does not say exactly when that was, but it was post-1948. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 12:33, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
As for the comment by ''Kahaneforever'', I am stunned. No, no POV in that comment or from that source! /irony ] (]) 20:03, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2023 ==
Criticism section. Please. This guy is one of the main reasons the Israeli-Arab conflict has dragged on and on for so long with so much bloodshed. ] (]) 16:44, 19 October 2010 (UTC) Yes, I should've signed in. ] (]) 16:45, 19 October 2010 (UTC)


{{edit extended-protected|Ariel Sharon|answered=yes}}
== Current Condition ? ==
Born in British mandated Palestine, Israel did not exist in 1928. ] (]) 03:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> nowhere in our article does it say he was born in Israel. Guessing you're looking at the Google preview box thing, that's something for them to address ] (]) 04:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)


== Note 77 and corresponding sentence should be removed. ==
Any update on his condition ? Last update on here was October 2009. Will he ever make a full, or partial recovery ? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:01, 6 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


There is a line at the end of the "Early political career, 1974-2001 / Legal findings" which incorrectly states "Prior to his assassination, he had "specifically stated that he did not plan to identify Sharon as being responsible for Sabra and Shatila.""
== Death rumors ==


Looking at that article, which clearly is bias as well, it states that someone else said he said that, being the textbook definition of heresy yet being shown in this article as "fact".
Rumors say he died on August 4th maybe..who can tell us the truth please? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:36, 5 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


The sentence should be removed or at least amended to correctly indicate that someone said that he said that, with zero evidence to support it.
== Houg Land Conflict ==


It's also a double quote because the linked article in note 77 is actually a quote from "IMRA, January 27, 2002" which itself is not referenced on that page and I can't find any actual evidence of it. ] (]) 09:57, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
I recently read, in Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish's book I Shall Not Hate: A Gaza Doctor's Journey, that Ariel Sharon had somehow managed to acquire the Abuelaish family's land in their hometown of Houg and says that Dr. Abuelaish to this day carries papers which prove the land was his before the family fled to a refugee camp, which they had inteneded to stay in temporarily before their return home. The book claims he stole the land and no evidence has been put forth that he purchased or otherwise legally acquired this land. I think this should be put in the article.
The book also states a incident in which Ariel Sharon cleared hundred of houses without permission of the occupants to make room for his tanks to patrol in Gaza. The book says that Sharon refused to pay the families compensation for their houses that didn't choose to move to the town of Al Arish, effectively punishing anyone who protested being illegally evicted. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: Sharon held a huge number of posts over his career and did many many things, and many were reported in books etc. If we report all of them, the article will be 1000 pages long. If you can research a pattern of these actions in a number of sources, you can have a section on these attitudes and actions, but in my view an isolated action reported by a single source (and not impartial at that) may not warrant inclusion. More generally, the article does require serious work with inline citations etc. Respectfully. - ] (]) 04:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)


== weasel words tag == == Birth Name ==


As with all other prime ministers applicable, the '''<u>"born name"</u>''' should be given/added in the introduction section also with Ariel Sharon.
I'm curious what the rationale is for the weasel words tag on the section "From 1948 War to Suez Crisis". The wording here feels pretty straight to me. The tag was added in April 2009 and I think it should be removed. ] (]) 05:41, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
:Since I haven't heard any opposition in the past ten days, I've gone ahead and removed the tag. ] (]) 01:27, 26 November 2010 (UTC)


Example: "'''Ehud Barak''' (]: אֵהוּד בָּרָק ]] <sup>]</sup>; <u>born '''Ehud Brog'''</u>;.... "
== Why did not Sluizer pursue the matter? ==


Therefore the following addition should be done:
<blockquote>
When asked why he didn't pursue the matter further, Sluizer said he began thinking more about the incident after surviving a near-fatal aneurysm in 2007.
</blockquote>
I am not sure if this sentence is needed, since the section is about Sharon and not about Sluizer.--<span style="font-family: tahoma;"> ] ]</span> 06:51, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


'''Ariel Sharon''' (]: אֲרִיאֵל שָׁרוֹן ]] <sup>]</sup>; <big><u>born '''Ariel Scheinerman(n)'''</u></big>; also known ..... ] (]) 13:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:If we give air to these unsubstantiated allegations then some discussion about the logic of the person making the allegations may be useful. However, I have doubts that the whole paragraph is needed. To my mind it violates ], ] if not ]. Can you say why this unsubstantiated (and bizarre) allegation should be there despite apparent violation of these policies? - ] (]) 09:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
::I also think it can be removed, but since I doubted that would go down smoothly, I opted to NPOV it.
::I'd also like to remind everyone this article is under 1RR (see top of this talk page). Jim, please self-revert your last edits or I will have to report you. ] (]) 11:17, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
:::Let me explain my above comment in more detail. The allegation have been published in RS and is about a public figure, and so per ] is notable. So if something like this was alleged about, say, a new minister with ostensibly relatively clean record, this would certainly be notable. However Sharon is nothing of sorts. Nowadays his name is seldom mentioned in the media, and when it is, it is usually about his care. But when he was active, he was a controversial figure and a rare week passed without some allegation about his political intrigue, financial scandals or military conduct. If we wanted to repeat all allegations made about Sharon in RS, the article will have to be 10 times longer than it is now. We need to be selective. I think this recent allegation is not really notable among dozens of allegations about Sharon. - ] (]) 14:17, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
::::While I generally agree with the above, I think there's a bigger issue here. Sluizer claims he saw this happen in 1982, and had a witness at the time. The fact he didn't mention it for almost 30 years is a bit suspicious. It would have been quite a scoop if publicized at the time.
::::That, and the aneurysm, and the fact he claimed he filed with various courts that have no record of his filing, and other such inconsistencies make this story pretty suspect. ] (]) 11:43, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
:::::], I would agree with you. But unstead of the questionable para lets put something like: "The allegations of direct involvement of Sharon with the events in Sabra and Shatila are still continue to be reported in media.". Would that be solution to many other accusation of Sharon being the part of the massacre?--<span style="font-family: tahoma;"> ] ]</span> 17:09, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
::::::Not sure. Need to ensure it does not violate ]. I do not fully understand that policy. Do you? Anyway, need to think. Cheers. - ] (]) 16:22, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
:::::::First, let me "hide" the controversial edit, until we clarify the matter. I think, this will be fair for both sides, rather than reverting. I would suggest, I will look through the information in the past 1-5 years and see if there were other instances of critisizm on Sharon in regard to his alledged involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre. I will bring the links here, and then we may discuss them. If there will be quite a persistent accusations, then we might include into article the sentence that was proposed in above. My main point is - if there are still discussions on the Sgaron, then the wikireaders should at least be informed that the case is still being discussed. Whta do you think?--<span style="font-family: tahoma;"> ] ]</span> 16:03, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
::::::::There are several issues here. Does Sluizer's account belong in this article? I doubt it. Someone suddenly remembering something he "saw" 30 years ago but neglected to mention until now, with details that don't check out and a reporter saying his story was inconsistent, isn't really encyclopedic material IMO. Certainly not on a BLP (Sharon is still somewhat alive as far as I know). I think it should be removed, not hidden. Second, you can't put a sentence about allegations about Sharon's participation being "still discussed in the media" without a specific source saying exactly that. Otherwise it's ]. ] (]) 17:11, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::I agree in general with NMMNG, though I happen to think that the inclusion of Sluizer account does not result in any negative-BLP problems. The entire account is so transparently bullshit, it enhances the established pattern of people making up stories in order to demonize Sharon (and other Israeli leaders for that matter). --'']] ]'' 17:56, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::Hi All, decided to throw my two cents in.... First, it was smart for Fitzgerald to 'hide' the offending paragraph until this gets resolved. Second, I agree with Nice Guy, it is very disconcerting about this revelation thirty years after the fact, with no other witnesses mentioned, and Sharon cannot offer a rebuttal to these allegations while in his state. Unless there are primary sources from the period that describe this event, it should be remove - and quickly. I say, give it three days and if nothing else materializes, then delete and end it. Because Sharon is such a controversial figure, there are people out there that would look to blame him for a ], if them could. If this is the case, lets not add to rumor. ] ] 18:01, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::One individual's ] claims violates ]. ] (]) 20:11, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::I disagree with Brewcrewer both in substance and in principle. In substance, I agree it is bullshit, but if spread widely, it will be reported elsewhere as facts, and with references to respectable Misplaced Pages. But even if harmless or even beneficial to the subject, unsubstantiated claims should not be there (although admittedly, BLP policy is more concerned with negative information, and rightly so). OTOH, note ] - ] (]) 14:50, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::I am also inclined to think that it is bullshit, BUT who we are to judge the sources? We act on facts, wether we like it or not. Our personal "investgation" into the matter (like "why Szluzzer critisized Sharon after 30 years) we cannot really as that kind of questions. But again, my specific suggestion was that if there are sources still discussing Sharon's involvement or non-involment in massacre in the past 10 years, then the sentence "The allegations of direct involvement of Sharon with the events in Sabra and Shatila are still continue to be reported in media" should be mirrowed in the article. --<span style="font-family: tahoma;"> ] ]</span> 19:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 18:36, 9 November 2024

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inaccurate Rank

The picture under unit 101 states that Sharon is a major, but he is in fact, a lieutenant colonel in the picture 2603:8001:6901:4E5:DD51:5322:71DD:E668 (talk) 02:54, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Birth name

Other Zionist luminaries have their European birth names listed at the top of the page, but Sharon/Schneiderman does not. One way or the other, this should be made congruous across all such articles. 184.146.13.20 (talk) 15:37, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I am assuming his surname was changed before he was born, so it is not included. For example Netanyahu and Gants do not have their true names mentioned, but their parents do, as well as early settlers who became politicians like Golda mabovitch, Szymon Perski, and David Grün The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
He was born Ariel Scheinerman (not Schneiderman). This is in multiple obituaries published on his death, and in several books. A good source is David Landau's biography "ARIK", where it is said that Ben-Gurion insisted on him changing his name. Landau does not say exactly when that was, but it was post-1948. Zero 12:33, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Born in British mandated Palestine, Israel did not exist in 1928. 2603:9009:800:E455:1599:34F2:D52C:6D2 (talk) 03:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. nowhere in our article does it say he was born in Israel. Guessing you're looking at the Google preview box thing, that's something for them to address Cannolis (talk) 04:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Note 77 and corresponding sentence should be removed.

There is a line at the end of the "Early political career, 1974-2001 / Legal findings" which incorrectly states "Prior to his assassination, he had "specifically stated that he did not plan to identify Sharon as being responsible for Sabra and Shatila.""

Looking at that article, which clearly is bias as well, it states that someone else said he said that, being the textbook definition of heresy yet being shown in this article as "fact".

The sentence should be removed or at least amended to correctly indicate that someone said that he said that, with zero evidence to support it.

It's also a double quote because the linked article in note 77 is actually a quote from "IMRA, January 27, 2002" which itself is not referenced on that page and I can't find any actual evidence of it. TheTruePhoenix (talk) 09:57, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Birth Name

As with all other prime ministers applicable, the "born name" should be given/added in the introduction section also with Ariel Sharon.

Example: "Ehud Barak (Hebrew: אֵהוּד בָּרָק ; born Ehud Brog;.... "

Therefore the following addition should be done:

Ariel Sharon (Hebrew: אֲרִיאֵל שָׁרוֹן ; born Ariel Scheinerman(n); also known ..... Penalica (talk) 13:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

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