| Revision as of 10:10, 2 June 2011 editChaosname (talk | contribs)139 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit |
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== Facebook material problem == |
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== Definition of Far-right == |
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{{archive top|This talk page is ] for sharing ] about the far-right. For convenience, see ]}} |
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Far-right is not Fascist or Nazi. Fascists or Nazis are left. Mussolini was a communist and the Fascist Party in Italy evolved from Marxism. This is well documented. The German Nazi Party was the German Workers National Socialist Party-they were socialists and identified as socialists from the left. Read Hitler's Nazi Party platform. Is it right or is it left? ] (]) 14:36, 25 January 2020 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::It's right. And you're wrong. ] (]) 08:26, 26 January 2020 (UTC) |
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Fascism belongs to the left side of the aisle as much as communism. Mussolini was a member of the Socialist party of Italy until 1914. Fascists believe in big government as much as the political left, welfare programs, atheism, totalitarian ideals, anti-freedom, anti-american, anti-captitalist etc and prefer violence to get ahead. Look at the so called Antifa, our modern day fascists. |
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Some users are posting sources concerning what was posted on facebook by a BNP member. Yet this is not a reliable source, and does not reflect the BNP, their policy, party or position in anyway. Comments posted on facebook on personal accounts cannot be linked to the views or policy of the British National Party. To argue so would be mad. We can scan facebook for sexist or offensive comments from labour and conservative members, does that then mean the labour or conservative party are a sexist party? ] (]) 16:34, 22 May 2011 (UTC) |
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] (]) 23:12, 8 April 2020 (UTC) |
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:The posting did not use Facebook as a source, but a newspaper article that referred to a blog posting by a BNP candidate. ] (]) 18:20, 22 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:This is factually incorrect, and this isn't the place to repeat these tired talking-points regardless. For convenience, see ]. There is nothing more about this that needs to be said on this talk page. ] (]) 23:51, 8 April 2020 (UTC) |
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:There is one rather nasty edit summary about the Evening Standard being handed out for free by "immigrants" on one of the reverts. That should stop. Otherwise its reported in a RS, its significant so it should be there --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:23, 22 May 2011 (UTC) |
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{{archive bottom}} |
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==Impartiality== |
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- The blog post was on the '''personal facebook''' account/page of a BNP member. It does not reflect the BNP, the party, their policy or position etc. Just before the royal wedding, several weeks back, it was revealed several prominent labour officials/members had left abusive comments on their personal facebook pages about the monarchy and wedding (as reported by Daily Mail). By your logic then, please go to the Labour party wiki page and post this & they that are anti-monarchy. One again, this is nothing more than biased anti-BNP from far leftists or self-proclaimed "anti-fascists". You leave every other party alone, but when it comes down to the BNP apply a completely different mindset and set of rules. ] (]) 19:03, 22 May 2011 (UTC) |
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Article is basically Left-wing propaganda, which goes against Misplaced Pages's impartiality policy. |
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:Lol! You actually believe what you read in the Daily Mail?! No wonder you support the BNP.] (]) 22:28, 23 May 2011 (UTC) |
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] (]) 07:05, 5 July 2021 (UTC) |
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:Is there anything specific you take issue with? Everything appears to be adequately sourced. — ''']''' 07:06, 5 July 2021 (UTC) |
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Please now see here Admin incident board ] ] (]) 19:08, 22 May 2011 (UTC) |
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== Policy == |
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::The person concerned is the Party's Chief London Organiser and the edit makes it clear that the source reports his blog. Given the status the comment is notable and its properly sourced. If there are significant and notable equivalents on the Labour Party then take them to that page and they can be examined. --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 19:21, 22 May 2011 (UTC) |
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Just before I edit, was wondering if anyone has an issue with me including their policy on renationalisation of the railways? |
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is fairly dodgy coatracking and should be recorded neutrally. Disappointing to see experienced editors supporting such poor wording of content. --''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 20:13, 22 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::Wording can undoubtably be improved, for the moment however we need to resolve if the material is notable and sourced.--] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:55, 22 May 2011 (UTC) |
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thanks |
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== Solution to User:Anglo Pyramidologist complains about bias ideological description == |
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] (]) 12:17, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 4 October 2021 == |
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On his previous posts ] has brought errors and possible to the table: |
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{{edit semi-protected|British National Party|answered=yes}} |
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Errors in current article (for cleanup): |
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I would like the word: "Fascist," to be removed from the description of this political party, as it is a democratic Nationalist party that seeks to field candidates in democratic elections. |
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As such, in pursuing a democratic course and path it is no more:. "Fascist," than the SNP. I.E. Not at all. ] (]) 17:30, 4 October 2021 (UTC) |
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*The BNP are ethno-nationalists not white nationalists. |
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:We go with what RS say.] (]) 17:33, 4 October 2021 (UTC) |
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*The BNP do not support fascism. |
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:] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{tlx|edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 17:50, 4 October 2021 (UTC) |
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::A "''party that seeks to field candidates in democratic elections''" applies also to the Nazis, Mussolini's Fascists and the British Union of Fascists! Indeed, just about every fascist group ever has contested democratic elections! By that argument, none of them were fascist either! ] (]) 07:43, 8 October 2021 (UTC) |
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Considering most other European parties of the Far right are not described in this way on the English wikipedia he has a point. There is a easy solution to this problem that I have derived from the ] page, where the authors have split ideology in two to help the reader understand in more detail. Proposition for the BNP is to do the same considering anti Fascists consider the BNP to be Fascist and the BNP claim not to be: |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2022 == |
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{{Infobox political party |
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|country = the United Kingdom |
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|name_english = British National Party |
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|logo = ]<!--Non free file removed by DASHBot--> |
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|leader = ] ] |
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|chairman = |
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|secretary_general = |
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|leader1_title = Deputy Leader |
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|leader1_name = Vacant |
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|foundation = 1982 |
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|dissolution = |
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|membership = 14,032 <ref>{{Cite web|url=http://bnptv.org.uk/2010/06/membership-database-overview/ |title=Blog Archive " Membership Database Overview |publisher=BNPtv |accessdate=2010-06-18}}</ref> |
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|headquarters = PO Box 14<br>]<br>SY21 0WE |
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|newspaper = Voice of Freedom |
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|youth_wing = ] |
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|ideology = |ideology = ]<br />]<ref>{{Cite journal|last1=Golder|first1=M.|title=Explaining Variation In The Success Of Extreme Right Parties In Western Europe:|journal=Comparative Political Studies|volume=36|pages=432|year=2003|doi=10.1177/0010414003251176}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last1=Evans|first1=Jocelyn A J|title=The Dynamics of Social Change in Radical Right-wing Populist Party Support|journal=Comparative European Politics|volume=3|pages=76|year=2005|doi=10.1057/palgrave.cep.6110050}}</ref><br />]<br />]<br />] |
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{{edit semi-protected|British National Party|answered=yes}} |
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''(Claimed by Opponents, Denied by the BNP):'' |
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I have done some research of this particular political party and it has come to my attention that we should add a 'Paramilitary wing' named "Combat 18', it's the official British National Party's paramilitary. ] (]) 04:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC) |
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]<ref name="bnpelection2004"/><ref name="informaworld.com"/><ref>{{Cite book|last=Copsey|first=Nigel |title=Contemporary British Fascism: The British National Party and the Quest for Legitimacy|publisher=Palgrave Macmillan|date=September 2009|edition=2nd|accessdate=19 October 2009|isbn=0230574378}}</ref><ref name="bnplondonbomb">{{Cite journal|last=Wood|first=C|month=December|year=2008|title=British National Party representations of Muslims in the month after the London bombings: Homogeneity, threat, and the conspiracy tradition |journal=British Journal of Social Psychology|volume=47|issue=4|accessdate=15 January 2009|doi=10.1348/014466607X264103|page=707|last2=Finlay|first2=W. M. L.|pmid=18070375}}</ref><br />]<br />]<ref>{{Cite journal|last1=Bonnett|first1=Alastair|title=How the British Working Class Became White: The Symbolic (Re)formation of Racialized Capitalism|journal=Journal of Historical Sociology|volume=11|pages=316|year=1998|doi=10.1111/1467-6443.00066}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last1=Back|first1=Les|last2=Keith|first2=Michael|last3=Khan|first3=Azra|last4=Shukra|first4=Kalbir|last5=Solomos|first5=John|title=New Labour's White Heart: Politics, Multiculturalism and the Return of Assimilation|journal=The Political Quarterly|volume=73|pages=445|year=2002|doi=10.1111/1467-923X.00499}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last1=Gerstenfeld|first1=Phyllis B.|last2=Grant|first2=Diana R.|last3=Chiang|first3=Chau-Pu|title=Hate Online: A Content Analysis of Extremist Internet Sites|journal=Analyses of Social Issues and Public Policy|volume=3|pages=29|year=2003|doi=10.1111/j.1530-2415.2003.00013.x}}</ref> |
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:] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{tlx|edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> - <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">] <small>(])</small></span> 04:59, 10 January 2022 (UTC) |
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|position = ]<!-- references for this are in the lead section --> |
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:It broke with the BNP in 1993. ] (]) 23:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC) |
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|european = ]<ref>{{Cite book|title = BNP in alliance with nationalists|url = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8356284.stm|publisher = BBC News|date = 12 November 2009|accessdate=31 December 2009}}</ref> |
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|europarl = ] |
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|colours = ], ], ] |
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|website = |
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|colorcode = {{British National Party/meta/color}} |
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|seats3_title = ] |
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|seats3 = {{Infobox political party/seats|2|72|hex=#2222FF}} |
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|seats4_title = ]<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/election2010/council/html/region_99999.stm |title=Local Council Political Compositions |author=BBC News |date=10 May 2010 |accessdate=9 May 2010}}</ref><ref name="Keith Edkins"/> |
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|seats4 = {{Infobox political party/seats|13|21871|hex=#2222FF}} |
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}} |
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:Where is the evidence any of the sources cited are opponents of the British National Party? You say "considering anti Fascists consider the BNP to be Fascist", well none of the sources cited are "anti Fascists" to begin with. ] (]) 19:35, 22 May 2011 (UTC) |
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I didn’t write that it can be proved that any of the sources were written by anti Fascists, I made a generic comment that anti Fascists consider the BNP Fascist. At the same time logic must suffice to allows us to accurately presume that those who claim the BNP are Fascist are opponents at worst or disagree at best, due in part to the negate connotation that the fascist label has, hence the use of the word in the first place is bias. Considering Misplaced Pages is supposed to be a neutral source of information it stands to reason that for the best interpretation of neutrality to suffice the reader must be able to have the facts placed in front of them, regardless of the Source. The facts are that their are people who say the BNP are Fascist and those that say they are not. Misplaced Pages must there fore represent that Fact. |
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amendment: |
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|ideology = |ideology = ]<br />]<ref>{{Cite journal|last1=Golder|first1=M.|title=Explaining Variation In The Success Of Extreme Right Parties In Western Europe:|journal=Comparative Political Studies|volume=36|pages=432|year=2003|doi=10.1177/0010414003251176}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last1=Evans|first1=Jocelyn A J|title=The Dynamics of Social Change in Radical Right-wing Populist Party Support|journal=Comparative European Politics|volume=3|pages=76|year=2005|doi=10.1057/palgrave.cep.6110050}}</ref><br />]<br />]<br />] |
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''(Claimed by Some, Including Opponents, Denied by the BNP):'' |
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]<ref name="bnpelection2004"/><ref name="informaworld.com"/><ref>{{Cite book|last=Copsey|first=Nigel |title=Contemporary British Fascism: The British National Party and the Quest for Legitimacy|publisher=Palgrave Macmillan|date=September 2009|edition=2nd|accessdate=19 October 2009|isbn=0230574378}}</ref><ref name="bnplondonbomb">{{Cite journal|last=Wood|first=C|month=December|year=2008|title=British National Party representations of Muslims in the month after the London bombings: Homogeneity, threat, and the conspiracy tradition |journal=British Journal of Social Psychology|volume=47|issue=4|accessdate=15 January 2009|doi=10.1348/014466607X264103|page=707|last2=Finlay|first2=W. M. L.|pmid=18070375}}</ref><br />]<br />]<ref>{{Cite journal|last1=Bonnett|first1=Alastair|title=How the British Working Class Became White: The Symbolic (Re)formation of Racialized Capitalism|journal=Journal of Historical Sociology|volume=11|pages=316|year=1998|doi=10.1111/1467-6443.00066}}</ref>}} |
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That is a very accurate proposal to updating the ideology tags on the box. I would also add that the BNP's Swedish equivilant are the ]. Note how their pages labels them as ethno-nationalism not white nationalists and secondly notes that the fascist label is just a label their opposition label them - they consider it a smear. Its exactly the same with the BNP. The fascist/nazi label is only what their opponents call them, it doesn't reflect their ideology. the white nationalism tag should be replaced with ethno-nationalist and the fascist label certianly should be removed. ] (]) 20:53, 22 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:Reliable sources Anglo P, you know the answer --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:06, 22 May 2011 (UTC) |
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Good idea to upload ideology tags, it might be difficult with the BNP though, for some reason the page shoves down any writing that is considered to wide for the box, for example the international affiliations and European affiliation group is doubled lined unlike say the French National fronts page, I don’t know why this is happening and could be a hindrance. On another note the sources used to describe the BNP as Fascist cannot even be accessed on the internet without parting with money, they cannot be said to support the claim and are as good as dead links that should be removed. Further more as i was explaining before just because a couple of academics (and there are literally only two 'academics' listed in the source section) say the BNP are Fascist (of which both links cannot be accessed properly)it doesn’t mean they actually are. At the very least the article should make it clear to the reader that the BNP denies these accusations, thus the page should read: |
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|ideology = |ideology = ]<br />]<ref>{{Cite journal|last1=Golder|first1=M.|title=Explaining Variation In The Success Of Extreme Right Parties In Western Europe:|journal=Comparative Political Studies|volume=36|pages=432|year=2003|doi=10.1177/0010414003251176}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last1=Evans|first1=Jocelyn A J|title=The Dynamics of Social Change in Radical Right-wing Populist Party Support|journal=Comparative European Politics|volume=3|pages=76|year=2005|doi=10.1057/palgrave.cep.6110050}}</ref><br />]<br />]<br />] |
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''(Denied by the BNP):'' |
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]<ref name="bnpelection2004"/><ref name="informaworld.com"/><ref>{{Cite book|last=Copsey|first=Nigel |title=Contemporary British Fascism: The British National Party and the Quest for Legitimacy|publisher=Palgrave Macmillan|date=September 2009|edition=2nd|accessdate=19 October 2009|isbn=0230574378}}</ref><ref name="bnplondonbomb">{{Cite journal|last=Wood|first=C|month=December|year=2008|title=British National Party representations of Muslims in the month after the London bombings: Homogeneity, threat, and the conspiracy tradition |journal=British Journal of Social Psychology|volume=47|issue=4|accessdate=15 January 2009|doi=10.1348/014466607X264103|page=707|last2=Finlay|first2=W. M. L.|pmid=18070375}}</ref><br />]<br />]<ref>{{Cite journal|last1=Bonnett|first1=Alastair|title=How the British Working Class Became White: The Symbolic (Re)formation of Racialized Capitalism|journal=Journal of Historical Sociology|volume=11|pages=316|year=1998|doi=10.1111/1467-6443.00066}}</ref>}} |
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Currently the page reads that is actual fact which is clearly untrue and is thus in breach of wikipedia code of conduct, cite: ] |
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Note: Admins etc were consulted about the constant vandalism by the "anti-fascists/anti-BNPer's/far left wingers" (Snowded, multiculturalist etc) but still i see they are reverting updates and corrections to the main article. Where do we go from here? ] (]) 23:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:We go to policy. You have added unsourced ideologies, this is against policy. You have added a claim that the authors of peer-reviews journals saying the BNP are fascists are "opponents " without sources saying so based on your opinion, this is against policy. See also ]. ] (]) 00:36, 26 May 2011 (UTC) |
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"the authors of peer-reviews journals" - As was also pointed out by another user here, they are not readable. 2 or 3 of the links lead to websites where you have to pay to read them, furthermore there are no page references. All these sources are not appropiate, quite clearly they were added by a biased anti-BNPer who is deceitfull linking to stuff that cannot even be accessed and verified. ] (]) 02:46, 26 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:There is no requirement in Misplaced Pages that sources be free to view: ] <span style="font-family: Papyrus">] (])</span> 07:33, 26 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:: Indeed, and the actual sources have been checked a number of times by Wikipedians with access (from memory, I've done it at least one). Our Reliable sources policy considers Peer reviewed journals to be the 'best' type of source, so unless someone can point to anything that disqualifies any of the sources that are currently used, there is nothing to discuss. --] (]) 08:06, 26 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::Absolutely right. Sources must be verifiable, but that does not mean that every Misplaced Pages reader has to be able to verify them and most certainly it does not mean that they have to be available online. There is nothing to stop anyone going into their local library and consulting the books referenced or, if they are not in stock, requesting them. Any public UK library will do this; some university libraries will allow public access to consult journals. But, regardless, all of these sources have been verified in the past by Misplaced Pages editors (several times) which I'm sure is well known to the objectors. One must conclude that their continuing this pointless debate - which has been settled several times previously (see archives) - is deliberately timewasting and vexatious. ] (]) 11:20, 26 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::: Yeah, I guess it's just an attempt to wear down editors and then say "well nobody objected!" --] (]) 11:44, 26 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::Added to FAQ, feel free to tart up the wording if you want. <font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 13:02, 26 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::Citations to books need page numbers, citations to journals do not. The fact that you can't read a journal, newspaper, or book for free on the web is irrelevant. ] (]) 13:09, 26 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::::::This page has now been protected for a week while it is sorted out. Users against neutrality on this page have cited several reasons ranging from 'reliable sources' of academics of the same kidney and 'consensus' and finally when made to make a concession on the FAQ section above (which no ordinary user ever reads) they refuse to extend this to the info box where it can be clearly seen by members of the public and not users. I have been personally threaded by ] and have also had threatening and sarcastic language used against my edits on the edit page. The 'consensus' that is the finally reason given for not allowing a clear denial of the Fascist slur on the main page has been achieved through bullying and banning active members such as ] and this 'consensus' is clearly in breach of wikipedia neutrality. If users are going to resort to banning, bullying and are going to render ] not applicable to this page and this page only and are going to use it as a political tool then i would rather not be involved with it at all. This is a shame because i have added information on several occasions to this article over the past year as has ] who single handily updated the 2011 elections by himself only to be banned for having the nerve to point out that the article is politically bias. ] <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 15:26, 31 May 2011 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Possible Combination of Opposition and claims of repression of free speech == |
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After the brilliant clean up of the elections page (sorry i am unaware of who performed that), the rest of the article is still in a mess in certain places, namely the claims of repression of free speech section is placed in the legal section. Claims of repression of free speech is not a legal matter and is more connection to opposition of the BNP, which includes university and anti Bnp Groups as well as the media. I propose the two should be merged and have drawn up a possible solution here: (no material has been added or deleted this is just a combination of already existing material similar to that performed on electoral performance) |
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== Opposition == |
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High-ranking politicians from each of the mainstream parties have, at various times, called for their own supporters to vote for anyone but the BNP,<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1756111,00.html|title=Guardian: Cameron: vote for anyone but BNP|work=The Guardian|location=London|date=18 April 2006|accessdate=26 March 2010}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news|work=The Daily Telegraph|title=Blair admits 'paying penalty' for US links|url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1541686/Blair-admits-paying-penalty-for-US-links.html| accessdate=20 February 2007|location=London|first=George|last=Jones|date=6 February 2007}}</ref> In 2008, then Prime Minister Gordon Brown stated: "Londoners and the rest of the British people know that backing the BNP is totally at odds with what it really means to be British—and the great British values the rest of us share, such as democracy and decency, freedom and fairness, tolerance and equality."<ref name="Brown">{{Cite news|url=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/04/29/hope-not-hate-vote-for-equality-freedom-and-hope-by-gordon-brown-115875-20398497/|title=Hope not hate: Vote for equality, freedom and hope|last=Brown|first=Gordon|date=29 April 2008|publisher=Daily Mirror|accessdate=7 October 2009}}</ref> ] leader ],<ref name="telegraph.co.uk">{{Cite news|work=The Daily Telegraph|title=Cameron calls on voters to back anyone but the BNP|url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1516510/Cameron-calls-on-voters-to-back-anyone-but-the-BNP.html| accessdate=5 December 2006|location=London|first=George|last=Jones|date=24 April 2006}}</ref> ] party leader ],<ref name="cleggtoday">Nick Clegg "... a party of thugs, fascists." Speaking on ''Today'', BBC Radio 4, 8 June 2009.</ref> and former Lib Dem leader Sir ]<ref>{{Cite web|work=Liberal Democrats|title=Lib Dems appeal to ethnic minority voters|url=http://libdems.org.uk/news/lib-dems-appeal-to-ethnic-minority-voters.10064.html |
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|archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20071014184609/http://libdems.org.uk/news/lib-dems-appeal-to-ethnic-minority-voters.10064.html |
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|archivedate=14 October 2007 |
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| accessdate=4 October 2007}}</ref> have all condemned the BNP. |
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The British Government announced in 2009 that the BNP's two MEPs would be denied some of the access and information afforded to other MEPs. The BNP would be subject to the "same general principles governing official impartiality" and they would receive "standard written briefings as appropriate from time to time", but diplomats would not be "proactive" in dealing with the BNP MEPs and that any requests for policy briefings from them would be treated differently and on a discretionary basis.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jul/09/diplomats-shun-nick-griffin-bnp-europe |title= UK diplomats shun BNP officials in Europe|accessdate=23 October 2009|location=London|first=Ian|last=Traynor|date=9 July 2009|work=The Guardian}}</ref> |
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In October 2010, a ] councillor in ], ], condemned a BNP leafleting campaign in his home town of ] opposing a refugee dentention centre being built there.<ref> '']''</ref> |
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Amongst the most visible and vocal opponents of the BNP and other far right-wing groups are ] and '']''. Unite Against Fascism, which aims to unite a broad spectrum of opposition to the far-right, includes the ], the ] and the ]. ''Searchlight'' has monitored the activities of far-right groups in Britain and abroad, including the BNP and its members, for many years. The Anti-Nazi League-organised group, ], organises regular music events in opposition to the far-right.<ref></ref> |
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===Claims of repression of free speech=== |
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Some opponents of the BNP call for no coverage to be given to groups or individuals enunciating what they describe as "]". The "]" stance is to deny perceived fascist hate speech any sort of publicity. The policy is most commonly associated with university student unions and debating societies,<ref>http://www.nusconnect.org.uk/blogs/blog/aaronporter/2010/09/14/Re-affirming-our-support-for-No-Platform/</ref> but has also resulted in BNP candidates being banned from speaking at various hustings meetings around the country. ] has been taken against the BNP stalls in shopping centres.<ref>, ''Edinburgh Evening News'', 29 March 2005. Retrieved 29 January 2009.</ref> The BNP claims that such cases exemplify how political correctness is being used to silence it and suppress its right to freedom of speech.<ref> BNP Website, 4 February 2005. Retrieved 3 October 2008.</ref> |
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=====Universities===== |
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In 2005, the '']'' newspaper was criticised after publishing an interview with Nick Griffin.<ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.leedstoday.net/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=39&ArticleID=971585|title=Yorkshire Evening Post: BNP interview fury}}</ref> Also in 2005, an invitation to Nick Griffin by the ] Union Debating Society to participate in a debate on multiculturalism was withdrawn after protests.<ref>Russell Jackson, , ''The Scotsman'', 5 February 2005. Retrieved 29 January 2009.</ref> In May 2007, a presentation by Nick Griffin was to be held at the ], but the University withdrew permission due to concerns over the large number of people opposing the meeting and possible disruption it could cause.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/6644117.stm|title=BBC News: University halts BNP speech plan|date=10 May 2007|accessdate=31 December 2009}}</ref> |
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=====Journalists and the Media===== |
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The BNP says that ] guidelines on reporting ']' organisations forbid unionised journalists from reporting uncritically on the party.<ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.bnp.org.uk/2008/03/the-media-reporting-on-the-bnp/|title=The Media: Reporting on the BNP|author=Martin Wingfield|date=16 March 2008|accessdate=17 August 2008}} {{Dead link|date=September 2010|bot=H3llBot}}</ref> |
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The BNP is condemned by many sections of the media, including right-wing newspapers such as the '']''. |
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In April 2007, an election broadcast was pulled by ]' lawyers, who believed that the broadcast was defamatory of the ] of ], ].<ref>, BNP Website, 24 April 2007. Retrieved 3 October 2008.</ref><ref>{{Cite news|url=http://politics.guardian.co.uk/wales/story/0,,2064627,00.html|title=The Guardian - BNP forced to change election broadcast|location=London|first=Hélène|last=Mulholland|date=24 April 2007|accessdate=27 April 2010}}</ref> The broadcast was made available to download from the BNP's website.<ref>. Retrieved 3 October 2008.</ref> The ] broadcast was shown by all but ] who refused and censored the video.<ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.newsonnews.net/election2010/2812-bnp-party-election-broadcast-airs-tonight.html|title=BNP Party Election Broadcast Airs Tonight |author=newsonnews.net|date=26 April 2010|accessdate=13 February 2011}}</ref> |
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In March 2011 Simon Darby released a letter of correspondence online between Nick Griffin and Alastair Machray, the editor of the ], in which Machray admitted that "It is this papers policy to discourage the activities of the BNP". The letter was written in relation to an advertisement request made on behalf of the party.<ref>{{Cite web|url=http://simondarby.blogspot.com/2011/03/liverpool-echo.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter|title=Liverpool Echo |author=Alastair Macharay|date=Thursday, 10 March 2011|accessdate=Thursday, 10 March 2011}}</ref> |
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----- |
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Note who posted this - "Amongst the most visible and vocal opponents of the BNP and other far right-wing groups are Unite Against Fascism and Searchlight". This is not sourced and is incorrect. United Against Fascism and Searchlight are not opposed to militant islam or islamic terrorism. In fact they openly support far right Islamic extremists. Furthermore both the UAF and Searchlight oppose democracy and freedom of speech. In the recent local elections the UAF blocked the enterences to BNP candidates so they couldn't go to the election results. Great democracy and anti-fascism there. The UAF are basically themselves fascist and oppose british democracy and freedom of speech. ] (]) 17:18, 28 May 2011 (UTC) |
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=====Police===== |
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In September 2005, 60,000 copies of ''Voice of Freedom'', which had been printed in ], were seized by British police at Dover. The police later admitted this was a mistake and released the impounded literature shortly thereafter.<ref>, BNP Website, 12 September 2005. Retrieved 3 October 2008.</ref> |
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===Veterans and Second World War=== |
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In June 2009, the ] wrote to Griffin privately to ask him to stop wearing their poppy symbol. |
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== BNP is a far-Left party, according to many observers. Why should this not be mentioned? == |
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It seems any references to the BNP being a party of the far-left are quickly removed anytime it is mentioned on the article. For the sake of being neutral, shouldn't this be mentioned? They have described themselves as "socialist leaning" and "the old Labour party in essence" in the past, and have been labelled far-Left, due to their political views of nationalization, protectionism and so on. The article seems to be using the term "far-right" as the media does; as a buzz-term with no real meaning. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:38, 25 May 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:We rely on what reliable sources say. ] (]) 00:44, 25 May 2011 (UTC) |
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No sources describe them as a 'far-left party', however the BNP has some left-wing policies. However you are quite right any mention of the BNP's left wing economic etc policies and they get removed quickly. According to a BBC poll, something around 40% of BNP members are ex-labour supporters. They joined the BNP because they see it as the true workers party since labour betrayed the white british working class for immigrants. ] (]) 23:37, 25 May 2011 (UTC) |
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This is silly. There is not a party in the world that is 100% consistent on its left-right position. De Gaulle (right wing) nationalised Renault and some banks (left wing). So what? One must look at the totality. Among left wing positions that the BNP does not hold (and quite important ones if it is to be described as left wing) are: nationalisation of banks, workers' control of industry and the means of exchange, international worker solidarity, abolition of monarchy and inheritance, scrapping of nuclear weapons, anti-racism (and your poll subjects seems to have joined the BNP for the exact opposite!), etc. etc. While all the sources say the BNP is fascist party (i.e right wing) then it is right wing. As in the past, you are challenged to provide reliable verifiable sources, but please go throughthe archives of this page first to avoid wasting your and everybody else's times in rehashing old themes that have already been dealt with. ] (]) 11:28, 26 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:as has been repeatedly pointed out we can only say what RS say.] (]) 12:29, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
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== please make the page more neutral like jobbik == |
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This is my final ever post here and my last attempt to get a change to the biased ideology box. If you please go to ] you will see the articles states only their opposition/media call them fascist but that they themselves deny these labels/claims as smears. Can we please do this for the BNP? Why do all other nationalist parties get treated and presented neutral, but with the BNP its a completely different matter? ] (]) 01:31, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:This seems a fair question why is this the case?] (]) 12:30, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:: Because socialists aren't interested in presenting a fair argument. ] (]) 16:01, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::Comparisons between other articles and this are meaningless. Each article stands on its own two feet regarding what reliable sources have said about them. In the case of Jobbik the media and opponents are being cited, neither are authoratitive source for ideology and require attribution. In the case of this article peer-reviewed academic journals are beind cited, they are authoratitive source. ] (]) 17:01, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::If you read the (FAQ) section at the top of this page it states that "These caveats to such labels must be acknowledged in the article", at currnet this is not the case and the article must be ammended slightly to comply with wikipedia code of conduct, I draw attention to the solutions thread above, (]) 17:01, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::Refers to article body only not infobox. There have been several discussions about this and there has never been a consensus to give undue weight to a fringe viewpoint by including it in the infobox. It is up to you to gain consensus for inclusion. ] (]) 22:44, 30 May 2011 (UTC) |
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{{od}} |
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#Your rationale is wrong re infobox |
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#(revised) |
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<span style="border:1px solid #100;padding:1px;"><small>] </small>|<small> <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small></span> 22:50, 30 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:What are you talking about? ] (]) 22:51, 30 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::Revised... Why don't you log in? <span style="border:1px solid #100;padding:1px;"><small>] </small>|<small> <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small></span> 22:53, 30 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::I will create an account when account creation becomes compulsory. ] (]) 22:54, 30 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::I believe he thinks you are a ] of ]. I'm not sure if there is any truth to this; however, almost all of your edits started after Anglo Pyramidologist was blocked and they all appear to be on ]. ] (]) 22:58, 30 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::I have a dynamic IP on British Telecom. is where you can see me disagreeing with Anglo Pyramidologist with a previous IP address. I assume that is sufficient for you to accept I am not him/her? ] (]) 23:00, 30 May 2011 (UTC) |
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{{od}}Thanks for logging in. Please feel free to blank that whole section of my talk page, if you so desire (and this comment, if you deem it suitable). <span style="border:1px solid #100;padding:1px;"><small>] </small>|<small> <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small></span> 23:29, 30 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:Ive requested a page protection so that ISP Vandals cannot attack the page without it coming to this discussion page first, im sick of people trying to use this page as a political tool without contributing any new information to it and thinking they have right away over everybody else. Read the FAQ section at the top of this page and cite ] 'balanced' section. No wonder this page failed miserably to get a 'good article' approval.] <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 13:11, 31 May 2011 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::This page has now been protected for a week while it is sorted out. Users against neutrality on this page have cited several reasons ranging from 'reliable sources' of academics of the same kidney and 'consensus' and finally when made to make a concession on the FAQ section above (which no ordinary user ever reads) they refuse to extend this to the info box where it can be clearly seen by members of the public and not users. I have been personally threaded by ] and have also had threatening and sarcastic language used against my edits on the edit page. The 'consensus' that is the finally reason given for not allowing a clear denial of the Fascist slur on the main page has been achieved through bullying and banning active members such as ] and this 'consensus' is clearly in breach of wikipedia neutrality. If users are going to resort to banning, bullying and are going to render ] not applicable to this page and this page only and are going to use it as a political tool then i would rather not be involved with it at all. This is a shame because i have added information on several occasions to this article over the past year as has ] who single handily updated the 2011 elections by himself only to be banned for having the nerve to point out that the article is politically bias. ] |
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===Comments=== |
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#Someone needs to create a new section for actual article discussion, and then keep the upcoming raging debate ordered. |
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#U6j65, for a rather new editor, you (above and in your actions) both seem to know a lot, and a very little about policy. Be careful who you accuse of what - as you did above. The talk page of the article is ''not'' the place to make such accusations. When the page is unprotected, I advise you be careful with the edit warring. Edit warring and then requesting page protection once caught does not make it look like you are editing in good faith. |
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#I've already covered the infobox |
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#'''In the upcoming week, the direction I think is most beneficial is:''' breaking down the article into it's component sections and discussing what each side thinks is wrong or correct. I'm willing to help out with this - I have no stake in this race at all (this, like 90% of my Watchlist, is on said list because it kept showing up on RecentChanges, AN/I or both... guess which category this fit into). <span style="border:1px solid #100;padding:1px;"><small>] </small>|<small> <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small></span> 16:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:Again can users please refrain from threatening me without viewing all the evidence, I made one reversion of the original work that was congruent with an earlier reversion that ] also made, the info box claim of consensus was only achieved through the banning of ] there was no overall consensus, and the article continues to refer to the BNP as fascist as if it were fact while the truth is that 3 academics have been sourced as stating they are, a compromise was put forward to show the BNP denies this, which was sourced and is factual but has still not yet been implemented. |
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::I put a protection request in after ISP accounts were used to change the page, as they have been constantly over the previous months to delete whole sections of the article and use abuse language ect, I did this with the best intentions of trying to solve these problems on this talk page. In relation to a 'breaking down' of the article I have also contributed more than most with a fully set out combination of 'opposition' stated above, so please take this as clear evidence that I always 'edit in good faith' which is more that can be said of some, I stand by my previous comments that there is persistant bullying and marginalising of users who wish to reform this page.] <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 18:46, 31 May 2011 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:::*Please refrain from the implications of personal attacks ("which is more that can be said of some"). It definitely will not help in such a highly contentious article. ''Fixing'' the article is a far better goal That aside, I asked for no explanation of your actions - they are evident in the page history and protect request. And finally, the article is '''still''' in a contentious state, so, personally, I could care less who thinks who's contribution is good, bad, biased, NPOV or otherwise until (a) we come to a consensus and/or (b) those with biases leave. In that respect, I'm content to sit back and watch you all politely work it out, sans the normal incivility that seems to happen here, and will gladly assist by reporting ], ] and ]/] issues. Again, I could care less what the article says... but I expect everyone can actually collaborate and make it into something unbiased. |
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::::Here's a tip: numerous of you seem to have different points of view. Instead of cannibalizing each other's efforts, why not try to help each other give the other's points of view due weight? It doesn't matter what you (or I, or any other editor) believe personally about this matter. What matters is that citable beliefs (from reliable sources) are given due weight - which includes diverging viewpoints (as opposed to simply reverting each others opposing viewpoints). Wait a minute... you all already know that... nevermind. When you all are ready to stop the "they did..." "he did...", let's get to making the article balanced without trying to destroy each others' contributions. At least, those are my suggestions. And I'd be happy to act as mediator in this - though don't be surprised if I don't take sides. <span style="border:1px solid #100;padding:1px;"><small>] </small>|<small> <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small></span> 18:56, 31 May 2011 (UTC) |
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===The problem=== |
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Hullo - the problem is the info box. The issue is that reliable sources describe the BNP as fascist, and those who oppose that view have been unable to find reliable, published third party sources to put a contrary view. It has been said many, many, many, many times, that the production of a reliable third party published resource that says the BNP is not fascist will lead to that item being removed from the info box, and relegated to a description of the contesting views in the article body. That the BNP deny they are fascist has usually been held to be insufficient to change the infobox, but thought worthy of mention in the body text. The next stage in the argument is then to argue the toss, and claim that the references aren't neutral, or are outdated. This has been debated out many, many, many, many times. I realise new users come here and have the same argument, and there's no excuse for us not to explain patiently the why's and wherefores of policy, although sometimes it feels like ]. |
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Achieving consensus in these conditions is difficult. We cannot ignore the reliable third party sources, but we do have to take some account of the opposition. The simplest option is just to kill the infobox outright, and leave it all to the article text. Next would be to drop ideology from the infobox, and leave that to the article text. But, if ideology stays in the infobox, unless a reference is found, then fascism has to stay.--] (]) 08:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:Most political parties have an info box and an ideology - I can't see any reason to move it --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 09:42, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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::Just becasue other pagers have one does not mean this page should. Source for the goose.] (]) 10:30, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:::I agree it would be an unusual solution, but it is for a particular problem. I don't think it would be a good solution, but the status quo isn't exactly a happy one. ] - I don't think that was a helpful comment, let's try and work in a civil way. There is a distinction between the justification of differing treatments and contents between different articles, and the application of standard features. The article should ahve an info box, it should contain an ideology statement, I was making a suggestion to see if there is8any* way out of the impass to consensus.--] (]) 10:41, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:::(ec)Not sure what a common waterbird has to do with the issue. And of course there is no absolute requirement, but in general articles on political parties follow a similar format so there would have to be a reason to change it. The very simple fact is that reliable sources say the BNP is fascist and some editors don't like that. Compromises are OK where there are competing sources but this is not the case here --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 10:44, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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::::RS say they are fascist, but is it their ideology? How do we determine what a political parties actually policies are? Sure its an accusation, but its not one that they accept. The info box should reflect the FAQ, which says its an accusation only. The info box implies it’s a fact.] (]) 11:27, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::The reliable sources say they are and the FAQ makes it clear the overwhelming body of academic literature says so (your "accusation only" is not an accurate representation of the note). In the years in which this has come up no editor has yet produced a source (other than BNP claims) to contradict this. --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 11:41, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::But the point is they deny it, so it is an unproven accusation. It does not matter who makes it. If its an incontestable fact then it does not need to be in the info box but in the text as we have. Then we allow the reader to decide its truth. What we have is the reader being told its true, then being presented with the debate. I agree the text of the article needs to refelct the accademic consensus and the fact that only they deny they are facist, but that is not (as far as I can see) refelcted in the info box with implies its a wholey uncontested fact.] (]) 11:48, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::The reliable sources say they are and the FAQ makes it clear the overwhelming body of academic literature says so (your "accusation only" is not an accurate representation of the note). In the years in which this has come up no editor has yet produced a source (other than BNP claims) to contradict this. --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 11:41, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::: The problem is that the sources themselves are all written by people in whose interests it is to find evidence to prove them as fascists. Yes there has been elements of fascism in the party. The sources show that, but what I find increasingly hard to believe is why these elements should be used as a sweeping judgement on the party as a whole. I so far in this debate haven't expressed which party my alliegence lies at, but I'll tell you now that the BNP detracts votes from any party I want to see in power. However, It still enfuriates me to see people pushing agenda. The question is not so much "There's a lack of sources" but "why are these sources credible in order to class the BNP, on the biggest encaeclopdia in the world, as fascists". When the telegraph, daily mail, the times, the express, call the bnp fascists. Then I will open my arms up and allow it. But when it's simply self proclaimed "liberals" "socialists" and "marxists" writing artciles on it, and using their university background as credit to their article. They together can only be treated as one entity. you need articles from all sorts of spectrums of the media. That, it seems, so far has not been proven. And third sources claiming the BNP aren't facist? Who on earth is going to write an article claiming they aren't facists. Just like no one is going to write an article saying the conservatives aren't communists. It's just not congruent. ] (]) 11:55, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::They all do call them facist ]. I seem to recall that the lack of evidacen is not evidacen of lack argument has been used elsewhere.] (]) 11:59, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::Alexandre8 academics cover a similar range of political opinion to society overall. Its not just current sources its also the roots of the party by the way. It is common for political disputes to have articles on both sides of a debate. The unanimity of the sources and the various political parties on this point should tell you something. Oh, and your political views (or mine) are not relevant. --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 12:10, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::::As we can see again the so called 'consensus' that is used time and time again as the argument of last resort for certain members of the wikipedia community to Police this page against the wishes of many that have tried to add to it constructibley over the years is not a consensus at all but a persistent and obsessive attempt for this page to remain un neutral underdeveloped and as a result it has been unable to achieve the status of 'good article' that such a contentious page should be able to achieve if ALL USERS were able to compromise and work together for the good and credibility of Misplaced Pages. Unfortunately there are about 3 users in my opinion (I will refrain from naming them) who simply refuse to do this and have continued to create havoc on this page over a period of time through refusing to compromise, this is simply Wrong. A compromise was put forward for the info box in which the Fascist and white nationalist tags would remain but it would be stated that the BNP denies these accusations baked up by sources First and third party which I provided out of my own time, Note I have never stated that the Fascist tag should be removed and have proved myself willing to compromise, we have to get over the info box first before we can move onto cleaning up the rest of the article. ] (]) 13:28, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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{{od}} |
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"The problem is that the sources themselves are all written by people in whose interests it is to find evidence to prove them as fascists." - the sources are written by reliable peer reviewed academics who are experts in their area. |
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"Then we allow the reader to decide its truth. What we have is the reader being told its true, then being presented with the debate." |
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Misplaced Pages doesn't do truth, wikipedia does verifiable - ]. Our opinions don't matter, only what reputable third part sources say. |
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:We may be daeling with BLP here. We have an accusation mnade that a prty (and therfore by inerance) its leadership is facist, a claim they have specificaly denied. If this were a page on a person this would not be allowed.] (]) 13:38, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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"When the telegraph, daily mail, the times, the express, call the bnp fascists. Then I will open my arms up and allow it." |
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Newspapers are not reliable sources, they are not peer reviewed and written by experts in their field. Academic citations are a better quality of source. But, even a third party source, like the Mail saying the BNP are not fascist would be sufficient. but they *have* to say it, we can't interperate them as saying it. |
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"Just like no one is going to write an article saying the conservatives aren't communists." |
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Indeed, but an article positively saying that the BNP are communists, or liberals would be enough to mean the info box would have to be changed. |
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"I seem to recall that the lack of evidacen is not evidacen of lack argument has been used elsewhere." |
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Not on Misplaced Pages, lack of sources means absence of comment. QWe're not interested in turth, just verifiability.--] (]) 13:31, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:Actualy it has been used (as part of a succefull argument) on wikiepdia.] (]) 13:38, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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] - does seem to apply, so the BLP consideration is that we must use reliable sources with inline quotations, which we appear to be doing already.--] (]) 13:50, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:Given teh size of the BNP (a very small group) and the fact that the articel goes to great lengths to talk about its leadership (and indead to use its leadership as an example of its factist connections) I would say that its a boarderline case.] (]) 13:55, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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::The info box lists 14,000 members, so hardly that small. The policy is referring to groups so small that you're really talking about specific individuals. I don't think a political party with 2 MEPs qualifies for such consideration.--] (]) 14:11, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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BLP is a red herring here - we have RS that provide WP:V for the statements made in the Info-box, that's the start, middle and end of it. No amount of "I DIDN'T HEAR THAT" is going to overcome that. --] (]) 14:19, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:::Again we have the problem of some willing to compromise and others not, again i refer to the acknowledgment of the article stating that the BNP denies the accusations backed up by newspapers or third party as has been provided, I personally have no outright desire for the fascist tag to be removed as i accept that a significant amount of people, whomever they may be, describe the BNP as such. If we look at the Political tendency section I much concur with ], notoriously anti BNP papers such as the Guardian and the Daily Mirror are used as sources to support the claims, anybody with a vague understanding of British politics and Society know that these to papers hate the BNP and are run by people who are ideologically opposed to the BNP. That’s fine but if you take the telegraph for example they have never (to my knowlage) called the BNP fascist outright and have merely stated that 'some people describe them as fascist' as has the BBC in the Andrew Marr- Griffin interview I sourced earlier, there is thus always a problem with the sources provided, no sources are cast iron in fact. The page should account for the BNP denial of the accusations in the Info box as well as the article. ] (]) 14:41, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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::::Technically, the infobox shouldn't even contain citations, that's already a concession to controversy. Discussion of disputes belong in the article text, but a statement in the infobox belongs or it does not. Either the BNP is a fascist organisation or it is not.--] (]) 14:44, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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::::: Thats rubbish and you know it, people keep on changing the goal posts and changing there excuses for not allowing neutrality to prevail on this page, firstly it was argued that consensus had prevailed over reform, which has proved to be untrue, then the sources were cited as being viable, which those who want reform have accepted, now the excuse is that the info box and the article are separate and follow separate rules, it plain to see that some are willing to compromise and others are not. If the BNP denied the accusations and it can be verified through source it should then be included where ever appropriate to achieve balance and neutrality, the article is not balanced at the moment and has been turned into a joke. If we cant compromise on something as crucial as the info box then this article will never move forward.] (]) 15:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::No its always been argued that its about reliable sources. The consensus is with that as it should be. Its legitimate to put the BNP's claims in the main body of the article. You need to understand that ] is NOT about equally representing all sides of an argument. Constant attempts to modify the material to conform with the BNP's view of themselves, if not supported by reliable third party sources is disruptive and will hold back development of the article --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 16:33, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::::The only ones who are holding back development of the article are those who refuse to allow others to contribute to in and engae in deleating their work time after time, the sources i provided for BNP denial of accusaions were soucred from third party sources, the BBC and the metro as far as i remember, your refusal to include them lead time and time again to disuptes on this page and is not constructive. ] (]) 16:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::::::That the BNP seek to deny it is not disputed and I am sure there are sources which report that denial. That is not the point --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 16:49, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Oh so after all the defence now is 'thats not the point', well yes it is the point, it's the point of the whole problem of this page not being balanced enough, the truth as i see it (and correct me if im wrong) is that you don’t want a balanced argument put forward for reasons we can only presume are political but are willing to accept a small sentence within the main article which nobody will read in order to try and claim the article is balanced. Those who originally wanted the Fascist tag removed have tried to compromise but every time you come up with some new excuse not to at least compromise over the issue, I find it imposable to argue any longer. Anyone can see that the info box presents a one sided argument, despite of the sources used supporting it, it is surly fair and balanced to have a sourced denial to show the reader that the evidence is NOT CONCLUSIVE OR CONSENSUS.] (]) 17:07, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::I'll stand by my statements but not your paraphrasing. We follow wikipedia policy here, if you don't like it then you can try and change it, but not on one article --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:39, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::You don’t follow wikipolicey on presenting a balanced argument that’s the whole point why people have issues with this page, let me ask you snowded when was the last time you actually contributed something positive to this page? Instead of blocking those that want to see it move forward.] (]) 21:10, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::It was not a personal attack it was a specific point followed by a specific question which you have failed to answer for your own reasons, presumably as you don’t want other users to know the truth. The article is not balanced, many people have raised this issue on many occasions a compromise was put forward and you have resolutely refused to compromise, have changed your argument on several occasions and have now resorted to reverting and deleting, please act Constructively, ] (]) 22:21, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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{{od}} |
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There aren't any moving goalposts, or new excuses, it's the same one, over, and over, and over, and over, and over again: to make a change we need reliable third party references. The example has been used many times, a criminal might well continually deny their guilt, but if it is established in a reliable third party source (a court) we have no reason not to label them "Well known murderer" - our only obligation would be to mention in the text that they continue to deny it. That's where we are. I've put forward options for change, but they won't support consensus - are there any other options? Are there no books that write sympathetically of the BNP? None?--] (]) 07:07, 2 June 2011 (UTC) |
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===Balance=== |
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I will answer the points on balance. Misplaced Pages articles are not supposed to balance every point of view equally. They are supposed to ]. There is a BIG difference. For instance (yes this is an extreme example), on the article on ], we do not give the same weight to those who still believe it is caused by the sound of ]'s goats' hooves as they pull his chariot across the sky. My example is ''not'' intended to state either side is deserving more weight than the other. It is '''''only''''' to point out that there is '''no''' such thing as a balance requirement for every point of view. As a matter of fact, instituting such would violate NPOV. NPOV requires giving '''proper''' weight ('''not''' equal weight) to every "side" of a matter as citable by reliable sources. Hope the conversation can now diverge from the balance thingy into deciding what proper weight is. Best, <span style="border:1px solid #100;padding:1px;"><small>] </small>|<small> <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small></span> 10:02, 2 June 2011 (UTC) |
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== BNP is fascist and want one party state == |
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they claim to reject both fascism and one party state BUT since they truthfully fascist then they are also want one party state |
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meybe someone from the party says they are not fascist but the truth is that they are and they as well want one party state] 06:06, 2 June 2011 (UTC) |
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===Totalitarian Dictatorship=== |
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:They Also want to establish a totalitarian dictatorship] 10:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC) |
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== New citations == |
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I've read this one: ''Towards a 'civic' narrative: British national identity and the transformation of the British National Party''. Halikiopoulou, Daphne. Political quarterly, vol. 81, no. 4, pp. 583-592, Oct 2010. "In order to understand the relative rise of the extreme right in Britain, scholars have focused on a number of factors, including sociological, economic and political ones. In particular, Eatwell focuses on the party’s modernisation, including changes in its rhetoric, the abandonment of fascist ideals" This refers to:R. Eatwell, ''‘The extreme right in Britain: |
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the long road to ‘‘modernization’’ ’'', in R. Eatwell and C. Mudde, eds, '''Western Democracies and the New Extreme Right Challenge''', London, Routledge, 2004, pp. 62–79. |
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I don't think, in context the Halikiopoulou is enough to justify a change (it's an interesting article), but someone will need to see if they can take a look at the Eatwell.--] (]) 09:43, 2 June 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Far-right is not Fascist or Nazi. Fascists or Nazis are left. Mussolini was a communist and the Fascist Party in Italy evolved from Marxism. This is well documented. The German Nazi Party was the German Workers National Socialist Party-they were socialists and identified as socialists from the left. Read Hitler's Nazi Party platform. Is it right or is it left? Sandvol (talk) 14:36, 25 January 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.88.195.79 (talk)
Fascism belongs to the left side of the aisle as much as communism. Mussolini was a member of the Socialist party of Italy until 1914. Fascists believe in big government as much as the political left, welfare programs, atheism, totalitarian ideals, anti-freedom, anti-american, anti-captitalist etc and prefer violence to get ahead. Look at the so called Antifa, our modern day fascists.
Just before I edit, was wondering if anyone has an issue with me including their policy on renationalisation of the railways?
I would like the word: "Fascist," to be removed from the description of this political party, as it is a democratic Nationalist party that seeks to field candidates in democratic elections.
I have done some research of this particular political party and it has come to my attention that we should add a 'Paramilitary wing' named "Combat 18', it's the official British National Party's paramilitary. Charlieo308 (talk) 04:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
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