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== Damjan Gruev ==
I asked the administrators for an intervention against the edit warring of ]. See ]. --] (]) 19:03, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
:The decision is "declined" and "Please take this issue to ]" ( ]). So the vandal may go on with his disruptive edits. --] (]) 08:01, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
::The procedure has been moved to the ]. Keep on the good work. --] (]) 17:08, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
:::Third and last attempt after ] (sic !). Note that he edits also under IPs ], ], ], ]. --] (]) 07:19, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


Hello there fellow wiki editor @] I would like to discuss the topic of Dame Gruev's ethnicity. In the article he is cited to be a ] teacher, although he was a teacher in the ] but i found sources were he identifies himself with the Macedonian identity/ ]. ] (]) 12:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
== -ovo ==
:Hi, the ] was the official national institution and the Orthodox Church of the ] in the Ottoman empire. Its members identified with the ethno-religious and linguistic community of the ]. It owned separate schools, hospitals, churches and formed local Bulgarian communities, that issued magazines, newspapers, shoolbooks, etc., only in Bulgarian standard language. These institutions were located only in the Bulgarian quarters of the towns. There were then neither Macedonian church, standard language, separate quarters or distinct communities, nor hospitals, bookstores, magazines, newspapers, etc., in the Ottoman empire. The designation Macedonian had different meanings than modern-day ones. Macedonians then were called and called themselves the Aromanians, who till today, especially these in North Macedonia, do not have a distinct term and still designate as ''Bulgarians'' their neighbours, the ethnic Macedonians. Thanks. ] (]) 13:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
::What are the sources? Perhaps one can still find use of them for something. ] (]) 13:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:::Sources about what issue exactly? ] (]) 13:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
::::My mistake. My question was addressed to ]. Gruev's article could use more sources. ] (]) 14:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::Not to forget, that the founders of the ], among whom was Gruev himself, wrote in its first statute that members of it could be only Bulgarians. ] (]) 15:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::I did not say anything about his ethnicity. I was just wondering if the sources the editor presumably has could still have some biographical value and be used to support unsourced content. ] (]) 16:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::: ] was blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet of ]. ] (]) 08:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::Good catch. It did not surprise me one bit. ] (]) 08:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)


== Request for Third Opinion: Use of Portraits in Ivan Asen II Article ==
Hi Jingiby. Are you aware of any good references for the Slavic genitive ending ''-ovo''/ ''-evo'', eg Trnovo, Kumanovo, Kosovo. Going by the historic and toponymic distribution, these are clearly of a Bulgaro-Macedonian provenance ] (]) 10:29, 1 August 2011 (UTC)


Hello,
Soryy, I did'nt find such source. Regards. 10:40, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
== Orphaned non-free image File:Grob.png ==


I’m seeking a Third Opinion regarding the use of two 19th-century portraits in the article on Ivan Asen II. The two portraits are:
<span style="font-size:32px; line-height:1em">''']'''</span> Thanks for uploading ''']'''. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a ]. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see ]).


1. Zograf Monastery portrait (1817) (File:G danchov ivan asen.jpg)
Note that any non-free images not used in any '''articles''' will be deleted after seven days, as described in the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-orphaned fair use-notice --> ] (]) 03:55, 3 August 2011 (UTC)


2. G. Danchoff’s depiction (File:Ivan-asen-II-zograf-portrait.jpg)
The image has been used on the article ] for years, but yesterday it was deleted by vandal. I restored the photo back there. Regards. ] (]) 05:19, 3 August 2011 (UTC)


The main question is whether either portrait is suitable for the infobox, considering they are Romanticized later depictions of the ruler who lived centuries earlier. A similar case can be found in the article for Simeon I of Bulgaria, where a modern-era statue is used in the infobox despite its temporal distance.
== Suggestion ==


Proposals under discussion:
''The ancient languages of the local people had already gone extinct before the arrival of the Slavs, mostly due to Hellenization since the antiquity and to a lesser degree to Romanisation during Roman rule. Their cultural influence was highly reduced due to the repeated barbaric invasions on the Balkans during the early Middle Ages by Goths, Celts, Huns, and Sarmatians, accompanied by Byzantine influence and later slavicisation. '


1. Use the Zograf Monastery portrait in the infobox due to its historical context.
I think we should change this. Frankly, I do not believe it. Personal intuition suggests that Thracian had not gone extinct. 90% of the population were simple farmers/ peasants. Why would they need to give up their own language and learn Latin ? Only soldiers, politicans and social climbers needed to do so. I came accross a reference that argues that Thracian was spoken till at least the 8th century. I'll try to remember what it was and included it, if you agree ] (]) 03:29, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


2. Place the Danchoff portrait in the “Legacy” section for additional context.
Thracian became extinct during the second half of the 6th century, or even during the 5th century. . ] (]) 06:57, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


Feedback or suggestions on the appropriateness of these portraits would be greatly appreciated.
:Correct; so it had not ''gone extinct before the arrival of Slavs'' but might have been in use still in certain areas when the Slavs arrived (Mocsy Pannonia and Upper Moesia p 358). NB The Thracian liturgical script in Asia Minor was ''introduced'' in 6th century ] (]) 00:57, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


Yes, maybe. But it is not shure. If it was gone extinct during the 5-th century - that was before the arrival of Slavs. ] (]) 05:29, 8 August 2011 (UTC) You can find the discussion on Talk Page @ ] ] (]) 17:52, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

:Indeed. But we might nevertheless pose that it ''might'' have still been spoken, esp given that there is a reference (and that many of the early Slavic chieftains names like Perbundos, Musokois, etc do not sound anything SLavic, but rather Thraco-Dacian) ] (]) 06:45, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Regs. ] (]) 07:31, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that link. Good articLe ] (]) 09:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

== Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia ==

You allege that they are numerically strongest in Bulgaria, but can you link me to groups representing these people in Bulgaria, or other evidence that shows there is a self-identifying population of these people. In Macedonia across the entirety of the country there are groups representing these people and the child refugees/deca begalci. What evidence, apart from questionable estimates do you have that says they are such a large group, as you allege they are.
And secondly, the Prilep-Bitola dialect is not bulgarian, so how could it's prohibtion be considered a banning of the Bulgarian language? ] (]) 08:35, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

The fact is a fact. We do not discuss here the organizations of the diaspora, but its presence. You can check also ]. ] (]) 08:44, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

:No, it is not a fact. You only believe it to be a fact because you fail to appreciated sources which are not to your liking. That political party is a group of Bulgarians from Bulgaria, they have no link to Greece at all. Show me evidence? Surely if they were so numerous, as you allege, it would be easy to find many examples of these people's existence. And by this I mean their existence in 2011, not several hundred years ago. ] (]) 08:49, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

== August 2011 ==

] You currently appear to be engaged in an ]&#32; according to the reverts you have made on ]. Users are expected to ] with others and avoid editing ].<br>
In particular, the ] states that:
# '''Making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period is almost always grounds for an immediate block.'''
# '''Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.'''
If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's ] to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents ] among editors. You can post a request for help at an ] or seek ]. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary ]. If you continue to edit war, you '''may be ] from editing without further notice.'''<!-- Template:uw-3rr --> ] <sup>]</sup> 11:52, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

If you believe there is sockpuppetry involved, you will need to file a case at ] and wait for the result. ] <sup>]</sup> 11:52, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

OK! ] (]) 12:39, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

== SPI ==

Hi Jingiby,

I reverted your to the FiG8 SPI page because your case seems to be involving a completely different person. You may want to lodge a brand new investigation. If your SPI does relate to the user FiG8, my apologies. ] (]) 23:07, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. ] (]) 05:36, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

== Proti, Florina ==

Can you please explain your revert please? I thought that my edit mentioned both of the viewpoints that Kanchov held? By his own admission the people called themselves "Macedonian/Македонци", and the surrounding people's also called them that. My edit reflected both of the viewpoints. Please elaborate on your revert, I with some good faith think that we can arrived at a mutually acceptable way to phrase this. ] (]) 07:20, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

As per citted source and general scientific consensus. Macedonian identiity became detectable during 1940-s and especially after 1944.] (]) 07:37, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

:Here you have him expressly saying that these people call themselves Macedonians (''they self identify as Macedonians''), and other peoples of the time acknowledge this and also call them that. It is not Black and white, the source is cited. Please provide an explanation relevant to the point I made. ] (]) 08:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

== Dimitar Dimitrov ==

This person has lived for the better part of their life in Skopje? How are they not from Skopje? I feel that you are following me and reverting at every possible opportunity. Please stop this behaviour. ] (]) 13:54, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

He is currently citizen of the city of Skopje. But he is not from this place, i.e. he is not from Skopje. ] (]) 13:58, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

:He has lived in Skopje for 30+ years. By this logic, Does ] need the Category:People from Adelaide or does ] need the Category:Writers from Chicago, Illinois? By your logic, No, however others seem to think differently (and no there is no need for discussion to add such tags, it is nothing more than commonsense). Please stop these ridiculous revert wars you keep starting with me across Misplaced Pages. Thank you. ] (]) 14:05, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

::You are kidding me? Do I really have to take to an admin now? ] (]) 15:05, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

== Balkan DNA ==

Interesting. So what exactly is it showing: all Balkan peoples are (1) extremely uniform (2) 67% intermediacy between European and west Asian 'genetic make up' ? Can you explain to me - they appear to have both automosal DNA (? from eye colour, muscle) and are they matchig this with mtDNA and y-DNA ? ] (]) 23:31, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

:on it's own, wiThout text, it makes little sense. I think it's just attempted to do something like Fst, Ie comparing genetic distances b/w varius Balkan people's c.f. other regions. However, it's a dubious-looking data set ] (]) 23:20, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

::possibly, however, according to the paper I referenced, written in the 2000s, the author included them as Dinarics. The paper you highlight was written in the 1930s, not that it matters. I think Coon argued that western Macedonians are Dinarics, those from east (ie Strumica, etc) are more the Bulgarian type ] (]) 02:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

According to ]'s book The races of Europe of 1910 and his , the situation is the same. In western Macedonia are Albanians. ] (]) 07:40, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

:that's not exactly true. He depicts the region around and NW of Ohrid as Albanian, much like the situation today. I don;t know what Ripley described Macedonians as, I haven;t read his actual work. As for Coon, he includes Macedonia as a province of Bulgaria, but suggests that Macedonians approach Dinaric attributes, ie their being tallest of Bulgarians and with the highest cephalic index. From what I saw when I was in Maceodnia 2 weeks ago, (true) Macedonians are a varied lot. Some look frankly dark, others (like my brother and mother) are blonde, blue-eyed. Unfortunately, I've only met 3 Bulgarians. A mate from school, one young chap in Greece and a nurse from work: kinda green -eyed and brown hair ] (]) 09:53, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

::Yeah, that;s very much what Coon wrote. SO Bulgarians are quite varied, though mostly Mediterranean, Macedonians similar, approaching more Dinaric, whislt the Serbs, Croats, Montenegrins are typically "Dinaric". Anyhow, I want to touch up the SOuth Slavs Genetics section soon, just make it more streamlined. I;m not convinced that Nordveldt's theory about I2a2 suffices as a WP:RS, tho ] (]) 04:05, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

::OK. WHen does he date this split in Vistula region to ? And how did he arrive at that conclusion ? ] (]) 05:13, 18 August 2011 (UTC)


Thanks for that. So, from what I discern:

* Hg I arrives in Europe from Near East in Upper Palaeolithic, possibly already as several different sub-clades, or possibly borke up in the Balkans, i.e: I2a1 (P 37), I1, I2c, I2a2; and they disperse throughout Europe and amplify to various extents during/ after LGM
* P 37 (I2a1) has several offshoots
- M 26 - in SW Europe, including Sardinia (possibly constituted a minor element in the Franco-Cantabrian ice-age refuge)

- M 233 to western Europe

- M 423: which splits around Vistula to Isles and Dinaric major sub-groups

* I1 seems to have stayed 'together' more splitting into different sub-clades rather later c.f. I2

* I2a2 (M223) also appears to have expanded around northern/ central Europe.

However, by Ken;s admission, his theories are just 'brainstorming'. If he wants to commit to them, he needs to publish them properly. We need to get this article ''New Phylogenetic Relationships for Y-chromosome Haplogroup I: Reappraising its Phylogeography and Prehistory''. Published in 2007 by Underhill, it has new data on Hg I. Its published in a book. One of the libraries in Sydney has it, ill try getting it in the next couple of weeks

I think that most clades which dispersed from Balkans have something to do with the Balkan Neolithic. As I read more and more archaeology, the central-eastern Balkans in Neolithic was a "flourishing; civilization. It had villages bigger than in Mesopotamia ! It was rich, cultured and densely populated. If there was ever an event which populated Europe, it was this ] (]) 10:29, 18 August 2011 (UTC)


Its definitely getting very interesting, not only Hg I, but R1b, R1a, E3b, J2 - all the Hgs found in Europe are getting greater clarity, thus revealing far more complex, layered demographic history. The only problem lies in the fact that age estimates continue to vary widely, and most likely, continue to do so. This makes it pin-pointing them to this or that event still very tenuous. ] (]) 10:41, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

The major problem with that theory, however, is that diversity of Hg I appears to be greatest in Dalmatia, therefor must be oldest there. ALso , the Slavic invasions barely penetrated Dalmatia. They were more focussed on the eastern Balkans. ] (]) 00:17, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

== нашинци. не вашинци ==

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6gLgcEteGk <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:41, 19 August 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

] is not a source for Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 14:51, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

is a personal friendship with that man a sourse? which language they speak in bulgaria? i don't know how to prove but nevertheless they call themselves "nashinci" no matter what you think of do. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:55, 19 August 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Personal friends are not reliable source, but Univesity Professors' publications in Academic journals issued by University publishing houses. ] (]) 15:00, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

so can you give me a sourse in which they say they are not "nashinci"? since you delete like you have the data of the whole world in you... <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:04, 19 August 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

i guess this is a reliable sourse? prof. dr. Aneta Svetieva? http://www.scribd.com/doc/38609973/%D0%A1%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B0-%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0-%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0-%D0%97%D0%B0-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5-%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5-%D0%BC%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8-%D0%B8-%D0%B7%D0%B0-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5-%D0%A2%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%B8-%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8-%D0%B8-%D0%B4%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B8-%D0%A2%D1%83%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B8-%D0%B2%D0%BE-%D0%A2%D1%83%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0 <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:08, 19 August 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Edit War ==

Can you please explain to me what was wrong with ? ] (]) 13:05, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

You can explain the situation, but not delete referenced text. For example: ''The Great Powers were unhappy with this extension of Russian power on the Balkans, and Serbia feared the establishment of Greater Bulgaria would harm their interests in the Ottoman heritage. This prompted them to obtain a revision of the Threaty of San Stefano through the Treaty of Berlin in the same year. ] (]) 13:19, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

:You know very well I removed it the first time. Providing a source does not make things immune from removal. Is it fine if I revert now? ] (]) 13:22, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

::What is it that you have reverted the Kanchov reference? Thanks. ] (]) 12:43, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

''"...Whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians, we have always maintained a separate, unified and different from the Serbs ethnicity, with Bulgarian consciousness"''... Retrived from "'''Народността на македонците'''", К. П. Мисирков, в-к "20-ти Юлии", бр. 5, 11 Май 1924. ] (]) 13:11, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

::Thats nice. I am talking about Kanchov not Misirkov. What is your objection? Why should this not be mentioned? ] (]) 14:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

=== Dialogue ===

I urge to participate in dialogur before simply conducting mass reverts on my edits. Dialogue and consensus was achieved at ] between myself and another user, you chose '''Not''' to participate despite being the reverting editor (who reverted based on no consensus, then chose not to participate when consensus was being made). I urge you to show good faith and participate in discussions rather than simply doing "hit and runs" on article. ] (]) 12:09, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

The dialogue must to predict your mass changes (edits). Not vice versa. ] (]) 13:27, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

: How about a friendly round of ] for the two of you, over at ]? ] ] 13:33, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Couple of things about your most recent revert : (1) You are just at 3RR now, and with your block history, I wouldn't rely on not getting blocked even below this if this goes to AE, if I were you. Better revert yourself. (2) My argument stands: the preceding sentence speaks of estimates "possibly 10,000 to 30,000"; your sentence quotes an estimate (not a "count" as you wrongly said in your edit summary) at approximately 10,000; that is ''within'' the range of the previous sentence, so it does not contradict it (in fact, the figure of 10,000 probably goes back to the same ultimate source, via Danforth, in both references). (3) My other argument also stands: your wording about "as per leading experts" is ridiculous peacock language. (4) Can you please ''finally'' get rid of this extremely annoying habit of inundating articles with rows of more and more footnotes for the same thing? It's this kind of behaviour that still marks you as being the inveterate POV pusher you've always been. Whenever I see a row of more than three footnotes on a single sentence, I know an article has been butchered by agenda editors. ] ] 17:20, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:13, 12 January 2025

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Reminders

Damjan Gruev

Hello there fellow wiki editor @Jingiby I would like to discuss the topic of Dame Gruev's ethnicity. In the article he is cited to be a Bulgarian teacher, although he was a teacher in the Bulgarian Exarchate but i found sources were he identifies himself with the Macedonian identity/ Macedonian Bulgarian. Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 12:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi, the Bulgarian Exarchate was the official national institution and the Orthodox Church of the Bulgarian people in the Ottoman empire. Its members identified with the ethno-religious and linguistic community of the Bulgarian millet. It owned separate schools, hospitals, churches and formed local Bulgarian communities, that issued magazines, newspapers, shoolbooks, etc., only in Bulgarian standard language. These institutions were located only in the Bulgarian quarters of the towns. There were then neither Macedonian church, standard language, separate quarters or distinct communities, nor hospitals, bookstores, magazines, newspapers, etc., in the Ottoman empire. The designation Macedonian had different meanings than modern-day ones. Macedonians then were called and called themselves the Aromanians, who till today, especially these in North Macedonia, do not have a distinct term and still designate as Bulgarians their neighbours, the ethnic Macedonians. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 13:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
What are the sources? Perhaps one can still find use of them for something. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Sources about what issue exactly? Jingiby (talk) 13:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
My mistake. My question was addressed to Macodudewasalreadytaken?. Gruev's article could use more sources. StephenMacky1 (talk) 14:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Not to forget, that the founders of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization, among whom was Gruev himself, wrote in its first statute that members of it could be only Bulgarians. Jingiby (talk) 15:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
I did not say anything about his ethnicity. I was just wondering if the sources the editor presumably has could still have some biographical value and be used to support unsourced content. StephenMacky1 (talk) 16:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Macodudewasalreadytaken? was blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet of User:Gurther. Jingiby (talk) 08:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Good catch. It did not surprise me one bit. StephenMacky1 (talk) 08:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Request for Third Opinion: Use of Portraits in Ivan Asen II Article

Hello,

I’m seeking a Third Opinion regarding the use of two 19th-century portraits in the article on Ivan Asen II. The two portraits are:

1. Zograf Monastery portrait (1817) (File:G danchov ivan asen.jpg)

2. G. Danchoff’s depiction (File:Ivan-asen-II-zograf-portrait.jpg)

The main question is whether either portrait is suitable for the infobox, considering they are Romanticized later depictions of the ruler who lived centuries earlier. A similar case can be found in the article for Simeon I of Bulgaria, where a modern-era statue is used in the infobox despite its temporal distance.

Proposals under discussion:

1. Use the Zograf Monastery portrait in the infobox due to its historical context.

2. Place the Danchoff portrait in the “Legacy” section for additional context.

Feedback or suggestions on the appropriateness of these portraits would be greatly appreciated.

You can find the discussion on Talk Page @ Talk:Ivan Asen II Nikolay.rusev (talk) 17:52, 11 January 2025 (UTC)