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| == |
== inaccurate Rank == | ||
| The picture under unit 101 states that Sharon is a major, but he is in fact, a lieutenant colonel in the picture ] (]) 02:54, 28 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Birth name == | |||
| Other Zionist luminaries have their European birth names listed at the top of the page, but Sharon/Schneiderman does not. One way or the other, this should be made congruous across all such articles. ] (]) 15:37, 22 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I am assuming his surname was changed before he was born, so it is not included. For example Netanyahu and Gants do not have their true names mentioned, but their parents do, as well as early settlers who became politicians like Golda mabovitch, Szymon Perski, and David Grün ] (]) 05:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :: He was born Ariel Scheinerman (not Schneiderman). This is in multiple obituaries published on his death, and in several books. A good source is David Landau's biography "ARIK", where it is said that Ben-Gurion insisted on him changing his name. Landau does not say exactly when that was, but it was post-1948. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 12:33, 14 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2023 == | |||
| In a few of the pictures (the main one and the one where he's walking with Rumsfeld his eyes are point in different directions. It looks like his right eye may be a glass eye since it's always pointing straight ahead and his left eye points in different directions. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:57, 25 February 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| {{edit extended-protected|Ariel Sharon|answered=yes}} | |||
| It's called ], I'm sure you know people in real life with this problem. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:49, 6 August 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| Born in British mandated Palestine, Israel did not exist in 1928. ] (]) 03:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> nowhere in our article does it say he was born in Israel. Guessing you're looking at the Google preview box thing, that's something for them to address ] (]) 04:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Note 77 and corresponding sentence should be removed. == | |||
| == Weasel words tag == | |||
| There is a line at the end of the "Early political career, 1974-2001 / Legal findings" which incorrectly states "Prior to his assassination, he had "specifically stated that he did not plan to identify Sharon as being responsible for Sabra and Shatila."" | |||
| I'm curious what the rationale is for the weasel words tag on the section "From 1948 War to Suez Crisis". The wording here feels pretty straight to me. The tag was added in April 2009 and I think it should be removed. ] (]) 05:41, 14 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Since I haven't heard any opposition in the past ten days, I've gone ahead and removed the tag. ] (]) 01:27, 26 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Looking at that article, which clearly is bias as well, it states that someone else said he said that, being the textbook definition of heresy yet being shown in this article as "fact". | |||
| == Why did Sluizer not pursue the matter? == | |||
| The sentence should be removed or at least amended to correctly indicate that someone said that he said that, with zero evidence to support it. | |||
| <blockquote> | |||
| When asked why he didn't pursue the matter further, Sluizer said he began thinking more about the incident after surviving a near-fatal aneurysm in 2007. | |||
| </blockquote> | |||
| I am not sure if this sentence is needed, since the section is about Sharon and not about Sluizer.--<span style="font-family: tahoma;"> ] ]</span> 06:51, 20 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| It's also a double quote because the linked article in note 77 is actually a quote from "IMRA, January 27, 2002" which itself is not referenced on that page and I can't find any actual evidence of it. ] (]) 09:57, 2 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :If we give air to these unsubstantiated allegations then some discussion about the logic of the person making the allegations may be useful. However, I have doubts that the whole paragraph is needed. To my mind it violates ], ] if not ]. Can you say why this unsubstantiated (and bizarre) allegation should be there despite apparent violation of these policies? - ] (]) 09:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I also think it can be removed, but since I doubted that would go down smoothly, I opted to NPOV it. | |||
| ::I'd also like to remind everyone this article is under 1RR (see top of this talk page). Jim, please self-revert your last edits or I will have to report you. ] (]) 11:17, 20 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Let me explain my above comment in more detail. The allegation have been published in RS and is about a public figure, and so per ] is notable. So if something like this was alleged about, say, a new minister with ostensibly relatively clean record, this would certainly be notable. However Sharon is nothing of sorts. Nowadays his name is seldom mentioned in the media, and when it is, it is usually about his care. But when he was active, he was a controversial figure and a rare week passed without some allegation about his political intrigue, financial scandals or military conduct. If we wanted to repeat all allegations made about Sharon in RS, the article will have to be 10 times longer than it is now. We need to be selective. I think this recent allegation is not really notable among dozens of allegations about Sharon. - ] (]) 14:17, 20 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::While I generally agree with the above, I think there's a bigger issue here. Sluizer claims he saw this happen in 1982, and had a witness at the time. The fact he didn't mention it for almost 30 years is a bit suspicious. It would have been quite a scoop if publicized at the time. | |||
| ::::That, and the aneurysm, and the fact he claimed he filed with various courts that have no record of his filing, and other such inconsistencies make this story pretty suspect. ] (]) 11:43, 21 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::], I would agree with you. But unstead of the questionable para lets put something like: "The allegations of direct involvement of Sharon with the events in Sabra and Shatila are still continue to be reported in media.". Would that be solution to many other accusation of Sharon being the part of the massacre?--<span style="font-family: tahoma;"> ] ]</span> 17:09, 21 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Not sure. Need to ensure it does not violate ]. I do not fully understand that policy. Do you? Anyway, need to think. Cheers. - ] (]) 16:22, 24 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::First, let me "hide" the controversial edit, until we clarify the matter. I think, this will be fair for both sides, rather than reverting. I would suggest, I will look through the information in the past 1-5 years and see if there were other instances of critisizm on Sharon in regard to his alledged involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre. I will bring the links here, and then we may discuss them. If there will be quite a persistent accusations, then we might include into article the sentence that was proposed in above. My main point is - if there are still discussions on the Sgaron, then the wikireaders should at least be informed that the case is still being discussed. Whta do you think?--<span style="font-family: tahoma;"> ] ]</span> 16:03, 25 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::There are several issues here. Does Sluizer's account belong in this article? I doubt it. Someone suddenly remembering something he "saw" 30 years ago but neglected to mention until now, with details that don't check out and a reporter saying his story was inconsistent, isn't really encyclopedic material IMO. Certainly not on a BLP (Sharon is still somewhat alive as far as I know). I think it should be removed, not hidden. Second, you can't put a sentence about allegations about Sharon's participation being "still discussed in the media" without a specific source saying exactly that. Otherwise it's ]. ] (]) 17:11, 25 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I agree in general with NMMNG, though I happen to think that the inclusion of Sluizer account does not result in any negative-BLP problems. The entire account is so transparently bullshit, it enhances the established pattern of people making up stories in order to demonize Sharon (and other Israeli leaders for that matter). --'']] ]'' 17:56, 25 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Hi All, decided to throw my two cents in.... First, it was smart for Fitzgerald to 'hide' the offending paragraph until this gets resolved. Second, I agree with Nice Guy, it is very disconcerting about this revelation thirty years after the fact, with no other witnesses mentioned, and Sharon cannot offer a rebuttal to these allegations while in his state. Unless there are primary sources from the period that describe this event, it should be remove - and quickly. I say, give it three days and if nothing else materializes, then delete and end it. Because Sharon is such a controversial figure, there are people out there that would look to blame him for a ], if them could. If this is the case, lets not add to rumor. ] ] 18:01, 25 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::One individual's ] claims violates ]. ] (]) 20:11, 25 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::I disagree with Brewcrewer both in substance and in principle. In substance, I agree it is bullshit, but if spread widely, it will be reported elsewhere as facts, and with references to respectable Misplaced Pages. But even if harmless or even beneficial to the subject, unsubstantiated claims should not be there (although admittedly, BLP policy is more concerned with negative information, and rightly so). OTOH, note ] - ] (]) 14:50, 26 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::I am also inclined to think that it is bullshit, BUT who we are to judge the sources? We act on facts, wether we like it or not. Our personal "investgation" into the matter (like "why Szluzzer critisized Sharon after 30 years) we cannot really as that kind of questions. But again, my specific suggestion was that if there are sources still discussing Sharon's involvement or non-involment in massacre in the past 10 years, then the sentence "The allegations of direct involvement of Sharon with the events in Sabra and Shatila are still continue to be reported in media" should be mirrowed in the article. --<span style="font-family: tahoma;"> ] ]</span> 19:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::You can't put that in the article without a source ''specifically'' saying it. Also, we don't have to put every single thing someone claimed in this encyclopedia. The onus is on the editor wanting to include the information to show why it should be in the article. There have been several policy based objections to including this. Feel free to explain why they don't apply. ] (]) 21:17, 26 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::'' BUT who we are to judge the sources?'' I think you are taking ] way too far. ] means our analysis has no place in the article. But in selecting material for inclusion we should exercise our judgement, not on its truth or otherwise, but on its notability. ] helps here, but there is a difference between a RS reporting it as news, and just an opinion expressed in a single interview. It's just does not seem to be notable. As I said earlier, particularly in the context of Sharon. It depends on how long it persists in the press though. If it sparks a major investigation, it would become notable. It is also a weird BLP issue in that Sharon is alive but unable to respond. However I won't worry about BLP as per ] - ] (]) 02:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::I do not think that an event is considered notable if it sparks investigation. If to take that approach then this passage: "Criticism. Several commentators have criticised Sharon's care. Most seriously, after his second stroke, Sharon was transported by ground ambulance to the hospital, a trip that took approximately one hour. Helicopter transport was not used. Also, other commentators have said that the dose of blood thinner given to Sharon was potentially problematic for someone who had recently suffered a stroke" has also to be taken out, as it is not notable. If we judge the source, then we have to admit that it is notable and reliable, ] is a well-known Jewish-Dutch film maker. --<span style="font-family: tahoma;"> ] ]</span> 15:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Birth Name == | ||
| As with all other prime ministers applicable, the '''<u>"born name"</u>''' should be given/added in the introduction section also with Ariel Sharon. | |||
| I'm concerned about the following paragraph in the article: | |||
| Example: "'''Ehud Barak''' (]: אֵהוּד בָּרָק ]] <sup>]</sup>; <u>born '''Ehud Brog'''</u>;.... " | |||
| :After the 1981 elections, Begin rewarded Sharon for his important contribution to Likud's narrow win, by appointing him Minister of Defense. On 16 January 1982 US President Ronald Reagan, in his diary, wrote that Sharon was "the bad guy who seemingly looks forward to a war." | |||
| Therefore the following addition should be done: | |||
| The issue here is the reference to Reagan's diary. Here is the full paragraph from the diary: | |||
| :Al Haig home with bad news about the middle east. Its possible Mubarak will abandon the Camp David Accords & settle down with his Arab brothers once he gets the Sinai back. At the same time Begin may renege on the Sinai although he swears he wont. Sharon is the bad guy who seemingly looks forward to a war. Al will be going back. | |||
| '''Ariel Sharon''' (]: אֲרִיאֵל שָׁרוֹן ]] <sup>]</sup>; <big><u>born '''Ariel Scheinerman(n)'''</u></big>; also known ..... ] (]) 13:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| It seems to be that Reagan is recording notes on what ] told him from his trip and that this is Haig's assessment of Sharon, not necessarily Reagan's. I don't think we should be using a primary source like Reagan's diaries (especially something unfiltered like a diary) without a secondary source that puts it in context and explains what Reagan really thought about Sharon. ] (]) 19:56, 18 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I agree. A classical case of a quote out of context. - ] (]) 16:41, 21 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 18:36, 9 November 2024
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 | Illnesses of Ariel Sharon was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 18 March 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Ariel Sharon. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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inaccurate Rank
The picture under unit 101 states that Sharon is a major, but he is in fact, a lieutenant colonel in the picture 2603:8001:6901:4E5:DD51:5322:71DD:E668 (talk) 02:54, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
Birth name
Other Zionist luminaries have their European birth names listed at the top of the page, but Sharon/Schneiderman does not. One way or the other, this should be made congruous across all such articles. 184.146.13.20 (talk) 15:37, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
- I am assuming his surname was changed before he was born, so it is not included. For example Netanyahu and Gants do not have their true names mentioned, but their parents do, as well as early settlers who became politicians like Golda mabovitch, Szymon Perski, and David Grün The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- He was born Ariel Scheinerman (not Schneiderman). This is in multiple obituaries published on his death, and in several books. A good source is David Landau's biography "ARIK", where it is said that Ben-Gurion insisted on him changing his name. Landau does not say exactly when that was, but it was post-1948. Zero 12:33, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2023
 | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Born in British mandated Palestine, Israel did not exist in 1928. 2603:9009:800:E455:1599:34F2:D52C:6D2 (talk) 03:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. nowhere in our article does it say he was born in Israel. Guessing you're looking at the Google preview box thing, that's something for them to address Cannolis (talk) 04:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Note 77 and corresponding sentence should be removed.
There is a line at the end of the "Early political career, 1974-2001 / Legal findings" which incorrectly states "Prior to his assassination, he had "specifically stated that he did not plan to identify Sharon as being responsible for Sabra and Shatila.""
Looking at that article, which clearly is bias as well, it states that someone else said he said that, being the textbook definition of heresy yet being shown in this article as "fact".
The sentence should be removed or at least amended to correctly indicate that someone said that he said that, with zero evidence to support it.
It's also a double quote because the linked article in note 77 is actually a quote from "IMRA, January 27, 2002" which itself is not referenced on that page and I can't find any actual evidence of it. TheTruePhoenix (talk) 09:57, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
Birth Name
As with all other prime ministers applicable, the "born name" should be given/added in the introduction section also with Ariel Sharon.
Example: "Ehud Barak (Hebrew: אֵהוּד בָּרָק ; born Ehud Brog;.... "
Therefore the following addition should be done:
Ariel Sharon (Hebrew: אֲרִיאֵל שָׁרוֹן ; born Ariel Scheinerman(n); also known ..... Penalica (talk) 13:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
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