| Revision as of 21:30, 4 December 2002 editEd Poor (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers59,217 edits to Karl← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 17:49, 9 January 2025 edit undoIndustrial Metal Brain (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users4,458 edits →Sicarii don't belong here: ReplyTag: Reply | ||
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| I tried to define suicide bombing objectively, as well as to present two of the main ethical appraisals of it. A difficulty in discussing anything to do with "terrorism" is, of course, that many advocates persuasively maintain that '''their''' side isn't guilty of terrorism: their targets are legitimate, the women and children aren't innocent, and so forth. | |||
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| {{copied|from=Female suicide bombers|to=Suicide attack|diff=http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Suicide_attack&diff=489783598&oldid=488869670}} | |||
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| {{onlinesource|year=2005|section=July 11–20|title=Suicide terrorism|org=Kompas (Indonesia)|date=July 19, 2005}} | |||
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| It can be difficult to refute such arguments, while consistently justifying the military bombing of cities in declared war: e.g., Dresden, Hiroshima. | |||
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| == ] don't belong here == | |||
| I don't think I have a handle on the issue. I just yearn for a world where no one would ever want to kill anyone!!! ] | |||
| Looking at ], practically the only source there is about the Sicarii, he doesn't mention any suicide attacks at all. (Quotes all from the translations available on Wikisource.) | |||
| :IMHO the specific act of suicide bombing is inherently neither terrorist nor non-terrorist. It is only one tactic among many others. The specific choice of target determines its terrorist nature. ] | |||
| {{quote|Certain of those robbers went up to the city, as if they were going to worship God, while they had daggers under their garments, and by thus mingling themselves among the multitude they slew Jonathan and as this murder was never avenged, the robbers went up with the greatest security at the festivals after this time; and having weapons concealed in like manner as before, and mingling themselves among the multitude, they slew certain of their own enemies, and were subservient to other men for money; and slew others, not only in remote parts of the city, but in the temple itself also; for they had the boldness to murder men there, without thinking of the impiety of which they were guilty... |The Antiquities of the Jews, Book XX, Chapter 8}} | |||
| ---- | |||
| {{quote|And then it was that the sicarii, as they were called, who were robbers, grew numerous... for they mingled themselves among the multitude at their festivals, when they were come up in crowds from all parts to the city to worship God, as we said before, and easily slew those that they had a mind to slay. They also came frequently upon the villages belonging to their enemies, with their weapons, and plundered them, and set them on fire.|The Antiquities of the Jews, Book XX, Chapter 9}} | |||
| I tried to add some reasons to suicide bombings as I don't think "they are Arabs" is enough really :-) It's badly written and probably not NPOV so feel welcome to edit it. Then it struck me, after watching a documentary about firearms in USA, are the suicide massacres in some way similar to suicide bombings? You know where someone shoots 1 - 2 dozen people and then commits suicide before the police comes. Like the Columbine (sp?) Highschool massacre and so on. --] | |||
| {{quote|When the country was purged of these, there sprang up another sort of robbers in Jerusalem, which were called Sicarii, who slew men in the day time, and in the midst of the city; this they did chiefly at the festivals, when they mingled themselves among the multitude, and concealed daggers under their garments, with which they stabbed those that were their enemies; and when any fell down dead, the murderers became a part of those that had indignation against them; by which means they appeared persons of such reputation, that they could by no means be discovered.|The Wars of The Jews, Book II, Chapter 13}} | |||
| ---- | |||
| {{quote|And when they had joined to themselves many of the Sicarii, who crowded in among the weaker people (that was the name for such robbers as had under their bosoms swords called Sicae), they grew bolder, and carried their undertaking further; insomuch that the king's soldiers were overpowered by their multitude and boldness; and so they gave way, and were driven out of the upper city by force.|The Wars of The Jews, Book II, Chapter 17}} | |||
| I worry about the focus on Islamic or Arab in this article. Even if true (and I am not immediatley convinced it is) I would think that the description should not include ethnic linkages. After the description, a list of groups engaging in suicide bombing (and notes on cynide capisuls), and perhaps a note that most suicide attacts are Arab or Islamic (assuming it's true) with a brief note of explination - such as currently large number of Islamic people feel that their religion, values, and countries are under attack by the west, and are unable to respond in any other way. I note that Islam has very strong prohibitions against suicide, this probably should also be covered. - Karl | |||
| Josephus does mention Sicarii present at the ], but that wasn't a suicide attack, that was just a plain ol' ]. Heck, out of both the sources cited, one is a passing mention and other mainly covers the aforementioned Siege of Masada. At the very least, a rewrite is warranted. ] (]) 03:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Do you mean it might be a relevant story, but maybe not exactly the same thing? | |||
| ---- | |||
| :https://www.apu.ac.jp/rcaps/uploads/fckeditor/News/Life_as_a_Weapon_Making_Sense_of_Sucide_Bombings_APU_15_January.pdf | |||
| If Palestinian homicide bombers were to concentrate on military targets such as troop concentrations, etc., it would be harder to criticize their actions. I'm not suggesting Israel and it's leaders have done nothing wrong. In fact I'll come straight out and say that some major government figures in Israel deliberately provoke matters for their own political ends despite the human costs on both sides. But after assuring you all I favor neither Arab nor Jew initially, I have to say based on what I see both sides doing I have no choice but to support the Israeli position more than the Palestinian side. Every day the Palestinan "leadership" proves it is completely incapable of leading. It cannot be trusted and, as much as I'd like to find out otherwise, is clearly a major root of the problem. Only when a new breed of Palestinian comes forward into leadership role and completely renounces terrorism and dedicate themselves to working with Israel towards the common good for both people will a solution to this mess be possible. This is not to say Israel will not have to make concessions to obtain peace as well. They must. They have, in fact. The concessions, more than many felt were reasonable, were refused for political reasons by Arafat and other Palestinians who felt they could use terrorism to gain more personal power. | |||
| :Wild guess, I think ] suicide bombers might be the Japanese version of the story of who invented suicide bombers. I stumbled upon those slides after seeing this thread yesterday. I don't know if it appears anywhere else, or just this one guy's talk, but there is a slide called "ancient origins" that shows a collection of spurious examples and the ] are most recent. I am very confused by Jesus on that list, he fits the topic "martyrdom", but the slide says suicide bombers. ] is also just suicide. My wild speculation is that after 911, Japanese researchers maybe went looking for absolutely anything that wasn't them for 9/11 to look like? But this is just my speculation based on one slide in a talk I found while looking for something else. ] (]) 17:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : I think I have been misunderstood. The article clearly states that suicide bombing is not accepted by most countries. I am recommending that as an addition, the quote from the Koran on prohibition against suicide also be added. In general, it should be quite clear that suicide bombing is not considered generally acceptable. This too can be stated. It <B>IS</B> important to say why people engange in suicide bombing. Given the rather strong comdemnation of it in the general description, no rebuttal is necessary. If one group is singled out, then the reasons that this group engages in suicide bombing is important. I don't think that the truth of these reasons needs to be debated, rather when listing the reasons, comments like the Palistinian people believe that ... An additional section on the results of suicide bombing, ie escellating violence, terroristic responsees by the victim countries, demonization, evaporation of public support... (again without justifications... with the obvious result of escelating results until someone backs down (Sira Lanka might be a good example here.)] | |||
| ::On a completely different note: it is true that the palistinian people need nelson mandella and desmond tutu; and instead they got Arafat. | |||
| ------ | |||
| Removed para:<blockquote> | |||
| Israel does everything possible only to target known terrorists who happen to also be civilians or to be posing as civilians. An unbaised observer should conclude, based on the record, that Israel does all it can to avoid collateral damage among innocent civilians, a task made near impossible when terrorists use civilians as human shields, invade and take over religious shrines such as the Church of the Nativity, or flee to and hide in densly populated civilian areas while being pursued. The record unfortunately shows, on the other hand, that Palestinian bombers tend to strive to do all they can to seek out maximum casualties among civilians. Reviewing their attacks one finds they prefer crowded buses, shopping or dining areas and other places where one bomb will have maximum killing effect among innocent civilians. This effect is further enhanced by deliberate addition of shrapnel to the bombs, for instance by packing large numbers of nails or other such items around the explosives. Finally they also have been known to arrange for a second bomb timed to go off in the same area when emergency crews have gathered and are working to recover the dead and relive the wounded. Each of these tactics is carefully, deliberately calculated to maximize casualties among civilians. </blockquote> | |||
| == Where are the bombers? == | |||
| The above passage needs some serious ] work before the few sentences of good, non-redundant material within it can be included back into the article (much of the above is already stated in the article, albeit in a more - yet still not great - NPOV way). --] | |||
| ---- | |||
| Remember the time last year that Israel launched missiles in a densely populated area in Gaza City? Noone is stating that the suicide bombers are playing it far and noone should state that Israel is doing it either. --] | |||
| {{slink|{{PAGENAME}}#War of Attrition}} | |||
| ---- | |||
| * The Japanese ] bombers for example clearly had other alternatives, and were not all that interested in altering the policies of a country in the way suicide bombers from terrorist groups are. | |||
| I can't work out where the suicide attacks are happening? | |||
| As a general rule, when a writer says something is ''clearly'' so, they're usually expressing their own opinion. Otherwise they would provide the fact that they imply is so "clear". To be neutral (or even to make sense), the above comment should indicate what "alternatives" the kamikaze pilots had. (The only thing I can think of is just tolerating failure of their bombing missions due to inability to deliver bombs accurately enough.) --] 20:34 Dec 4, 2002 (UTC) | |||
| If it's the school bus, I can't work out how that could be done as a "suicide bombing" because "mines" are usually concealed. | |||
| : ah - I was under the impression that the japanese were using suicide bombing as a tactic in and of itself, from quite early in the war - before the failure of their bombing missions was so apparent. Similary, they were not doing that badly in the first part of the war, unless of course you are arguing that it was the suicide bombing that caused the japanese success. No matter. The purpose of the sentence was to try to show an example which did not include all the points listed. As opposed to discuss a point in detail. ] | |||
| Also, the current version says Israel is responding to attacks on Israeli civilians twice? But it doesn't say where attacks on Israeli civilians happened. Were there two sets of attacks or is that just emphasis? Are those two statements and the school bus all the same thing? | |||
| ---- | |||
| If an article edit is worth 1,000 comments, I put up ] to express my ideas on the current article. ] 21:21 Dec 4, 2002 (UTC) | |||
| {{tq|''']''': On 21 March 1968, in response to persistent ] raids against Israeli civilian targets, Israel ] the town of ], Jordan, the site of a major PLO camp. The goal of the invasion was to destroy Karameh camp and capture ] in reprisal for the attacks by the PLO against Israeli civilians, which culminated in an Israeli school bus hitting a mine in the ].<ref>{{Cite book|last=Senker|first=Cath|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=hI844N9leNUC&pg=PA45|title=The Arab-Israeli Conflict|date=2004|publisher=Black Rabbit Books|isbn=978-1-58340-441-6|language=en}}{{Dead link|date=August 2023 |bot=InternetArchiveBot |fix-attempted=yes }}</ref> This engagement marked the first known deployment of suicide bombers by Palestinian forces.<ref>Saada, Tass & Merrill, Dean ''Once an Arafat Man: The True Story of How a PLO Sniper Found a New Life'' Illinois 2008 pp. 4–6 {{ISBN|1-4143-2361-1}}</ref> <small>{{reflist}}</small>}} | |||
| ---- | |||
| Karl, I'm not trying to impose my views. If you have a reason for omitting my 3 paragraphs on military and "irregular" tactics, I'm happy to discuss it here on the talk page. Often when two people edit the same article rapidly, an "edit conflict" and one or both contributors lose their work. I would rather just come back later if you need to have the article to yourself for a while. --] | |||
| (tag me in replies please) ] (]) 15:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : Ed - i like your changes as currently made ] | |||
| :To make it more confusing, ] says that war happened in the Sinai. ] (]) 16:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks, but I found an even better version by DanKeshet. So I replaced all my work and your work with his version. This will be my last edit for now. I want to let everyone else have a chance, and I don't want anyone to feel I am "imposing" anything. --] | |||
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Sicarii don't belong here
Looking at Josephus, practically the only source there is about the Sicarii, he doesn't mention any suicide attacks at all. (Quotes all from the translations available on Wikisource.)
Certain of those robbers went up to the city, as if they were going to worship God, while they had daggers under their garments, and by thus mingling themselves among the multitude they slew Jonathan and as this murder was never avenged, the robbers went up with the greatest security at the festivals after this time; and having weapons concealed in like manner as before, and mingling themselves among the multitude, they slew certain of their own enemies, and were subservient to other men for money; and slew others, not only in remote parts of the city, but in the temple itself also; for they had the boldness to murder men there, without thinking of the impiety of which they were guilty...
— The Antiquities of the Jews, Book XX, Chapter 8
And then it was that the sicarii, as they were called, who were robbers, grew numerous... for they mingled themselves among the multitude at their festivals, when they were come up in crowds from all parts to the city to worship God, as we said before, and easily slew those that they had a mind to slay. They also came frequently upon the villages belonging to their enemies, with their weapons, and plundered them, and set them on fire.
— The Antiquities of the Jews, Book XX, Chapter 9
When the country was purged of these, there sprang up another sort of robbers in Jerusalem, which were called Sicarii, who slew men in the day time, and in the midst of the city; this they did chiefly at the festivals, when they mingled themselves among the multitude, and concealed daggers under their garments, with which they stabbed those that were their enemies; and when any fell down dead, the murderers became a part of those that had indignation against them; by which means they appeared persons of such reputation, that they could by no means be discovered.
— The Wars of The Jews, Book II, Chapter 13
And when they had joined to themselves many of the Sicarii, who crowded in among the weaker people (that was the name for such robbers as had under their bosoms swords called Sicae), they grew bolder, and carried their undertaking further; insomuch that the king's soldiers were overpowered by their multitude and boldness; and so they gave way, and were driven out of the upper city by force.
— The Wars of The Jews, Book II, Chapter 17
Josephus does mention Sicarii present at the Siege of Masada, but that wasn't a suicide attack, that was just a plain ol' mass suicide. Heck, out of both the sources cited, one is a passing mention and other mainly covers the aforementioned Siege of Masada. At the very least, a rewrite is warranted. ZionniThePeruser (talk) 03:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Do you mean it might be a relevant story, but maybe not exactly the same thing?
- https://www.apu.ac.jp/rcaps/uploads/fckeditor/News/Life_as_a_Weapon_Making_Sense_of_Sucide_Bombings_APU_15_January.pdf
- Wild guess, I think Sicarii suicide bombers might be the Japanese version of the story of who invented suicide bombers. I stumbled upon those slides after seeing this thread yesterday. I don't know if it appears anywhere else, or just this one guy's talk, but there is a slide called "ancient origins" that shows a collection of spurious examples and the Kamikaze are most recent. I am very confused by Jesus on that list, he fits the topic "martyrdom", but the slide says suicide bombers. Cato the Younger is also just suicide. My wild speculation is that after 911, Japanese researchers maybe went looking for absolutely anything that wasn't them for 9/11 to look like? But this is just my speculation based on one slide in a talk I found while looking for something else. I.M.B. (talk) 17:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Where are the bombers?
Suicide attack § War of Attrition
I can't work out where the suicide attacks are happening?
If it's the school bus, I can't work out how that could be done as a "suicide bombing" because "mines" are usually concealed.
Also, the current version says Israel is responding to attacks on Israeli civilians twice? But it doesn't say where attacks on Israeli civilians happened. Were there two sets of attacks or is that just emphasis? Are those two statements and the school bus all the same thing?
War of Attrition: On 21 March 1968, in response to persistent Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) raids against Israeli civilian targets, Israel attacked the town of Karameh, Jordan, the site of a major PLO camp. The goal of the invasion was to destroy Karameh camp and capture Yasser Arafat in reprisal for the attacks by the PLO against Israeli civilians, which culminated in an Israeli school bus hitting a mine in the Negev. This engagement marked the first known deployment of suicide bombers by Palestinian forces.
- Senker, Cath (2004). The Arab-Israeli Conflict. Black Rabbit Books. ISBN 978-1-58340-441-6.
- Saada, Tass & Merrill, Dean Once an Arafat Man: The True Story of How a PLO Sniper Found a New Life Illinois 2008 pp. 4–6 ISBN 1-4143-2361-1
(tag me in replies please) I.M.B. (talk) 15:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- To make it more confusing, War of Attrition says that war happened in the Sinai. I.M.B. (talk) 16:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
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