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Revision as of 03:20, 18 November 2011 editWikireader41 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers8,522 edits →Flying ace← Previous edit Latest revision as of 19:27, 13 January 2025 edit undoClueBot III (talk | contribs)Bots1,381,112 editsm Archiving 1 discussion to User talk:TopGun/Wikiproject Militory history. (BOT)Tag: Manual revert 
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{{semi-retired|date={{#time:F Y}}|I'll edit occasionally, but don't have alot of time or energy for foreseeable future.}}
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{{top icon |sortkey=8 |wikilink=Muhammad Ali Jinnah|image=Cscr-featured.svg|width=15|height=15|description=This user has major contributions to Muhammad Ali Jinnah, which he helped achieve Featured article status.}}
{{DYK user wrote topicon large|sortkey=7|article_name = Pakistan Armed Forces deployments|date= 13 January 2015}}
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<div style="background-color:#003e3e;font-family:arial;font-size:100%;text-align:center;color:#fff;border-radius:10px;border:3px solid #00FF00;padding:10px;box-shadow:0px 5px 10px #444;margin:0px 300px 20px 0px;">Please create new sections at the bottom of the page.<br /><br />If we were already talking on this page but the conversation is ''gone'':<br />you'll find our conversation in one of the archives unless you were rude. You can revive it by creating a new discussion here and linking it to the archive and you can even move it back with attribution in edit summaries with a civil note (if you're comfortable with wiki markup).<br /><br />If I have left you a message on your talk page, you can reply there, but remember to add a <nowiki>{{tb|replace this with your username|ts=~~~~~}}</nowiki> template to my talk page because I might not be watchlisting your talkpage if we don't interact regularly. I will do the same for you if you ask me to or if you have not recently commented on my talkpage in the discussion.<br><br>Note that it is ] {{#time:g:i A|{{CURRENTHOUR}}:{{CURRENTMINUTE}} {{#if:{{{1|}}}|{{{1}}}|+5}} hours}} (+5 ]), where I live.</div>
== Hindustani ==
;Chess, everyone!

<span class="plainlinks">''''''<br />
When you are reverted, you need to take the issue to the talk page, not fight over it. Please read ] for an illustration of how this works.
<small>]</small></span>

{{User:TopGun/Chess}}
Meanwhile, you're adding what appears to be your personal opinion, without references. We use refs on WP. AFAICT, your opinion does not match the historical record -- but again, that is a matter for the refs to decide. — ] (]) 01:02, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

These are not my 'opinions', they are logical facts which the page itself refers to & I also tagged a reference with the edit. Actually instead of asking me to the talk page to "first discuss" after reverting, was a bad idea since you not agreeing with my edit already means that we should go to talk: ].

Anyway, already added a discussion on the bottom of the talk page of the article under a relevant topic which you appear not to have noticed. Hope to resolve it. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 01:30, 30 July 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:It's up to the proposer, not to the reverter, to demonstrate the accuracy of the proposal. Please read ].
:"Logic" has nothing to do with it: we base our articles on sources. Please read ].
:Correct, I did not recognize you, since you signed in under a different name. Please choose one name and stick to it, or people generally will fail to recognize you.
:BTW, I did reply to those comments, not realizing it was you. If you think Gandhi invented the term "Hindustani", may I suggest you read up on the history of India. — ] (]) 01:32, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

That being said, "first discuss" is still a 'not helpful' option as mentioned in ] which I happened to see after reading ]. Logic here means consistency, which is an essential part of the informative writing. --] (]) 01:42, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I was having some difficulty setting up the username with certain symbols due to which there was such inconvenience. As for the term being "used" and not "invented" by Gandhi, the edit I made itself included the reference tag. --] (]) 01:45, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

:AFAICT, your edit was factually wrong. It was also unreferenced. Any unreferenced material may be removed. I removed it. Again, if you make a claim, it's up to your to demonstrate it. That's what would be logical. — ] (]) 01:49, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Since you keep on repeating, it was actually referenced. The edit had a tag to main Hindi-Urdu controversy. --] (]) 01:51, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
:That's not a reference, that's a link. And a link to WP! We can't use WP to reference WP.
:You addition was, ''Although the name "Hindustani" is not as neutral as "Hindi-Urdu" since it gives reference to the Hindu religion/culture creating a bias against Muslim Urdu speakers, especially in Pakistan''. You are giving an opinion, yet stating it as fact, and even claiming here that it is fact! I think you need to explore the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion'. Second, the bizarre claim that use of this Muslim-Urdu word 'creates bias against Muslim Urdu speakers, esp. in Pakistan' certainly needs to be ref'd. If it's so offensive to Muslims, why would Muslims have coined it?
:Distinguish fact from opinion, and reference your claims. It doesn't matter the subject, them's the rules. — ] (]) 01:49, 30 July 2011 (UTC)


My reference was to the modern day subcontinent while talking of the bias.
The controversy article was already well linked, hence the addition was supported.

Since the discussion is bending more towards the article, it would be easier to continue it along on the article discussion page. --] (]) 02:06, 30 July 2011 (UTC)



For record and to prevent confusion, copied the duplicate discussion from ] (]). --] (]) 02:13, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

==Your recent edits==
] Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to ] and Misplaced Pages pages that have open discussion, you should ] by typing four ]s ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comment. You could also click on the signature button ] located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you. <!-- Template:uw-tilde --> --] (]) 01:49, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

== Article ] ==

] Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Misplaced Pages. Your edits appear to constitute ] and have been ] or removed. If you would like to experiment, please use the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:uw-vandalism2 --><!-- Template:uw-cluebotwarning2 -->
the original figure of 3000 was changed to 6000 (even the source u have included shows 3000 and not 6000)
do you have any other reason for ] on the article ] ??--] (]) 21:18, 11 October 2011 (UTC)--] (]) 21:20, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

It was not an act of vandalism. It was driven from the fact that Indian army ordered double the no of outfits as compared to the Pakistan army after they got information through their intelligence source.You should follow ] policy while handling such edits.
Also, please use the article talk page if you reverted me for something related to that. --] (]) 05:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
::* well your statement clearly shows that you dont even bother to read the mentioned sources completely , and give lame excuses for your editings that can very well be called Vandalism. Your arguement of Claiming to be editing on ] will not work then. I encourage you to read the 3 page article again . it clearly states that Pak ordered 150 and india ordered double that is 300 . it does not mean India has 6000 soldiers. please check it again without reverting and editing Misplaced Pages articles or you can be blocked again. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 09:54, 12 October 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Your mention of 3000 troops was not correct too. Infact the reference itself indicated 800 Pakistani troops. You should read what you link as references. This is not vandalism, its verification. And stop telling me of getting blocked unless you have a good reason. Do not edit my talk page for article related issues. Use the article's discussion page. --] (]) 09:58, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

== Advice ==

i suggest you re-write the following paragraph you added on the "sinking of pns ghazi"-page . you should never copy-paste from a source as this constitutes copyright violation. copyright violators usually get banned indefinitely here om wikipedia. don't let that happen to you. you need to formulate the content with your *own words* and *own structure*. read the following wikipedia policy attentively and closely, ].-- ] (]) 12:09, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Will do. --] (]) 12:12, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

I tried to re-write some of the content on the first edit. I've re-written the rest now. Thanks. --] (]) 13:00, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

: it's still not good enough. you have merely paraphrased parts of the paragraph i.e. substituted some words with others, keeping the overall verbatim structure . it is clearly mentioned in ] that this is not allowed. i would have written something like this:

{{quotation| An independent testimony stems from an Egyptian officer who claimed that the Indian ships were docked at the Visakhapatnam harbour when the explosions from the supposed Indian sinking of Ghazi occurred <:ref>http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/navy/1971navalwar/lossofghazi.htm</ref> <:ref>http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/navy/1971navalwar/lossofghazi.htm</ref>}}

:now compare my rewrite with your rewrite. you see the difference? both the *words* and the *structure* in my rewrite are different because i wrote creatively and originally from scratch, with my own words, the facts *i* wanted to present. as a starter: my *initial* advice to you is to firstly read the source, then throw it away. think about what you read in own words, and then formulate *only* the facts you want to present in own words. be original, selective and creative.-- ] (]) 13:22, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


Hmmmm.... let me give it another try. --] (]) 14:13, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Got your point. Edited. --] (]) 14:23, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

: it's better but you're still paraphrasing (and you copied me!). also it's better to quote than to paraphrase. change the text to the following:

{{quotation|An independent testimony stems from an Egyptian officer who claimed that the Indian ships were docked at the Visakhapatnam harbour when the explosions from the supposed Indian sinking of Ghazi occurred, and that "it was not until about an hour after the explosion that two Indian naval ships were observed leaving harbour".<:ref>http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/navy/1971navalwar/lossofghazi.htm</ref>}}

: always use quotation marks when quoting, never paraphrase. keep it *short* and *simple*. don't worry, you'll get better at writing from scratch *if* you put an effort to it.-- ] (]) 14:42, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

:::Yeah, copied your example because it was different from the source text. Changed the article now to the version you gave above. Thanks for helping. --] (]) 14:48, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

:::: good, but there are some issues with your latest edit here . give it a thought, and think how to write it *totally* from scratch. also write shorter, less detailed. however, you have made some progress.-- ] (]) 16:20, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

:::::I wrote this one from memory instead of reviewing the source alongside. Yet, the content was so full of factual statements that it still some how shows some similarity to the original content. Trying to "type in" for any edits I do now. :]

:::::: memorizing is not the point. you need to select the important points you want to write about. let me help you out:
::::::*pakistan retaliated
::::::*some indian boats were destroyed
::::::*the indians had taken countermeasures

:::::: that's it. these are the most important points... written in my own words. the rest is blah blah. *read*, *think*, *select*, *formulate* in your own words. no paraphrasing. no copy-pasting. write creatively and originally from scratch with your own words, own structure, and own understanding. -- ] (]) 16:36, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

::::::: Hmmm. --] (]) 16:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Current revisions of these articles are very biased or pro-Indian. Trying to tone them to neutral and put in some content from the Pakistani side. --] (]) 16:24, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

== Sources ==


use this code for the source used in the first sentence of your edit at the "operation trident"-article (see the code by clicking edit):
* <:ref name = pak_info></ref>
now, for the second sentence just use:
* <:ref name = pak_info />
now, the source will have the same enumeration.-- ] (]) 18:16, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

:::Ahh.. thanks! Fixed the rest too. --] (]) 18:23, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

:::: there are two broken sources on the page you need to fix. i suspect that <:ref name = "Pakdef" /> should be renamed to <:ref name = pak_info /> as they both denote the same source. i'm not sure but investigate it.-- ] (]) 19:05, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

== A tip ==

It looks like from this edit of yours that you are unaware of ], FYI. Thanks. ] (]) 20:19, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

:It was done through wikipedia talkpage. Its not called canvassing. You need a better understanding of that. --] (]) 07:18, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

::You should re-read that. And here's something else for you: ]. ] (]) 16:44, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

:::You are misusing the statement about ]. Read the appropriate notification section:

''"On the talk pages of concerned editors. Examples include editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)..."''

:::Misleading claims such as this come in ]. --] (]) 16:57, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

::::Those examples are not exhaustive. You should try reading the first sentence of your quote again. And here's how to deal with harassment: ]. ] (]) 17:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

:::::And I told a ''concerned'' editor who was participating in similar other topics. You are really really hard at ] --] (]) 17:20, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

::::::My point exactly. That creates a potential selection bias in your favor. ] (]) 17:25, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

:::::::That way you can go on and create controversy & conspiracy theories. You should assume that every one here on wikipedia is not a part of a huge conspiracy against you. --] (]) 17:36, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

== Use of ] in your recent editings ==

on ] how can you include http://pakistanlink.org/Commentary/2006/March06/03/02.HTM as a citation ? please refer ]

Also one of your major source (the citation Pakinfo http://www.pakdef.info ) for your recent editings also falls under the same category. It has already been rejected by WIkipedia as a NON RELIABLE SOURCE http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_62#pakdef.info .

Kindly do not use such References for editing on wikipedia and also remove the editings you have done using the above NON RELIABLE SOURCE pakdef.info and others on various wiki pages that ] recently. thanks --] (]) 01:39, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

:These sources are not self published. They have been quoted widely on wikipedia. Before you remove any text, see comments in the edits. In so many places you have recklessly removed text which so many other sources confirmed. --] (]) 08:21, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

::If you Disagree with (the citation Pakinfo http://www.pakdef.info ) that has already been rejected by WIkipedia as a NON RELIABLE SOURCE then i invite you to please go through http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_62#pakdef.info . if you are still not happy with that you can take that matter to the noticeboard http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard and get your case heard, and you can give whatever arguements or counter arguements in support of making http://www.pakdef.info a reliable source. As going by the current status pak def info is non reliable source. PLEASE REFRAIN from making edits by using non reliable source as it will only weaken your case and any other WIKIPEDIA EDITOR will revert your edits with all your hard work gone waste. I would suggest you to first get pakdef info, cleared by WIKIPEDIA before using it (as it is already blacklisted) inspite of whatever you may say . regards --] (]) 11:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
:::The results you've called as '''current status''' were ''inconclusive'' and a current RSN on going on the RSN noticeboard will decide this matter. --] (]) 07:14, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

:::*RSN concludes source as '''not''' a '''non-RS'''. --] (]) 05:14, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

==]==
While your first modification was assumed to be a mistake but your re-posting and reverting of proper edits seems to be a clear case of ] insertion and ]. Why have you modified text while references remain same? Why you keep using a forum as your main source? Repeated infringement will be reported to Admins.
And finally ] has raised a very valid point. Forum PakDef is NOT an ].
] (]) 08:28, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

I cited neutral sources to the article. You have reverted it masking it as vandalism. Review the sources before you make such disruptive edits.

Other sources which were left unchanged ''mentioned'' what the new edits said. I just reviewed them. You're repeatedly reverting text all over wikipedia. This does not help. ]

You've also edit Indo-pak naval war article without reviewing an on going discussion on the talk page. This is not the way thing work here. Read ]. All the information was well cited and mentioned/dicussed on the talkpage. This kind of disruptive editing constitutes vandalism.

See the talk pages for the discussion already in place. All explanations have been given there and in the edit summaries. --] (]) 08:35, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

You removed the properly cited part where it was stated that Mines have a counter making it impossible for them to destroy the laying vessel. The most plausible explanation, reflected in almost all of the sources is that the depth charges by Vikrant caused an internal fire in Ghazni causing its store of mines to blast taking it down. This is echoed in the Russian citation too.
Furthermore you removed the references to Rediff, Hindu and Tribune. Needless to say all three are ].

Anyway, I tried to locate the 'Raid' part you complained about in Naval war article but can find no problem or suggestion that it was attacked by someone else. Changed the Conflicts page's 1965 section to 'Sources Opined' meaning that it was their opinion. Lets just be Happy man!
] (]) 10:10, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

You just look at what is removed and don't see what is added instead of it. The sources sited told that the submarine was blown from inside out. Review the sources. Also, I've not thrown away any information. Indian version has the Indian POV given. You can add to it. Rediff and Hindu are Indian citations and not considered to be neutral.

The raid part clearly suggests contradiction, see article talk page.

Dispute is a neutral word used all over wikipedia. It is very lame to editwar over that.

Use article talkpage for this discussion to prevent confusion. --] (]) 10:16, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

So according to you Indian newspapers are biased while forum PakDef is credible!!!
] (]) 10:47, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

No. They are counted as Indian & Pakistani sources instead of third party sources! --] (]) 10:50, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

And PakDef forum is a third party source?
] (]) 10:54, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

No, its a Pakistani source, just like the Indian websites are quoted. The over all impression should be a NPOV. --] (]) 10:56, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

You have been told many times and by many editors that PakDef is basically a forum and has been determined to be a Non:Rs in source list.
] (])11:22, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

:: please read above http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Hassanhn5#Use_of_Wikipedia:Verifiability.23Self-published_sources_in_your_recent_editings Just because a statement does not please you is no justification for calling it a POV you are supposed to give proper proof with NEUTRAL citation before calling it as POV. Please understand that by using Non RELIABLE sources you are EXTENSIVELY damaging the neutrality and credibility of WIKIPEDIA --] (]) 11:26, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


Other sources have been given in this article. Your comment is of no importance here. Also, see article's talkpage.

ref: Till, Geoffrey (2004). Seapower: a guide for the twenty-first century. Great Britain: Frank Cass Publishers. p. 179. ISBN 0-7146-8436-8. Retrieved 2010-05-28.

these references have been disruptively removed by the above user without any explaination.
See ]
--] (]) 11:39, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

:: What ? Please see clearly, mate. it is you ] (]) who have deliberately removed those citations. that is not me check the name of editor in your link. you yourself are showing your VANDALISTIC changes, Thats nice, and a good thing to start with. i appreciate your point. --] (]) 11:48, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Instead of LYING outright, check out the heading of this section, and then check the link I gave in my last comment. Those references have been removed by the above user. After you've done that and cooled off, see ] & and stop flaming or I'll be forced to report you. --] (]) 11:55, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

:: Do not get offended. you are free to do whatever you want. The admins will also see your history logs also in the process and a lot of dead bodies will fall from your closet. :) --] (]) 11:59, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

] I have checked your edit history and I must say am impressed by your constant struggle against vandalism. Check your Page for a surprise ;).
] (]) 12:06, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

::::Blaming someone of vandalism when its not the case is clearly a personal attack ]. Those references were removed by swift&silent as the link shows. Don't sermon me about not getting offended after posting offensive messages on my talk page. FYI: My history logs are clean from inflammatory attacks. I will ask you not to edit my talk page. --] (]) 12:08, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

{{od}}
*Both have been warned. Hassan, report this straight to ] should this persist. --<small>] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">]</span></sup></small> 01:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

::Dave, thanks for sorting this out. Hope it's fixed without a report. I've not yet reported at ] either, because I assume ] listens to your advice. --] (]) 02:01, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

::*] too much, I'm already at the brink of nominating him to be ] if he continues to behave in this manner. --<small>] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">]</span></sup></small> 02:10, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

:::*As an aside, {{User|Swift&silent}} is being investigated as a possible sock of a BANNED editor, see → ]. --<small>] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">]</span></sup></small> 03:41, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

::::*Keeps getting better and better. --] (]) 05:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

:Good luck with this article Hassan. If you check this article's history you will find that I was editing it some time ago with more sources giving different view-points, but was being reverted by editors like Wikireader and UplinkAnsh for nationalistic reasons. I did try to get neutral parties on board but it seems nobody is interested in helping in Indo-Pak disputes so I quit editing it to avoid edit warring with the above two editors. How are your attempts going? --] (]) 02:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

::Thanks! Yeah. These guys are now stalking my contributions list and editing every article I edit to push their pov. I've already lodged a complaint. Lets see. I'm just trying to get the bias out of those articles and adding verifiable information only. Looks like I've satisfied them on the talk pages of ] & ] but its a long way to go. --] (]) 10:21, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

:::I'd like to help you out but I'm determined to concentrate on my studies for this year, I'll keep your profile in my watch list. A few interesting sources for you that I've kept:
:::* http://books.google.com/books?id=ZcejlMRYNAAC&pg=PA179&dq=PNS+Ghazi&ei=LKdDSKG0H4KijgGs1qG-BQ&sig=9YcFuLJttkAY3wIH965XTx6eU1Y#v=onepage&q=PNS%20Ghazi&f=false - "Seapower: a guide for the twenty-first century" By Geoffrey Till. "...PNS Ghazi... itself sank enroute under somewhat mysterious circumstances."
:::* '''http://sify.com/news/the-truth-behind-the-navy-s-sinking-of-ghazi-news-columns-kfztj3bhjeh.html - "The truth behind the Navy's 'sinking' of Ghazi", by Lt General JFR Jacob, (retd) (published 2010-05-25)'''
:::* http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/11962-fate-pns-ghazi.html#post163986 - an article by Sandeep Unnithan on the sinking of PNS Ghazi. States that experts concluded the submarine sank as result of an internal explosion. Article is copied/pasted into forum post, original source needs to be found.
:::* http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/jan/agosta.htm - "An Agosta Submarine for Pakistan" by Lt Gen (Retd) SARDAR F.S. LODI. States the PNS Ghazi "blew up, presumably on its own mine."
:::* http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/navy/1971navalwar/lossofghazi.htm - "Operations in the bay of Bengal - the loss of the PNS/M Ghazi".
:::* http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/navy/ghazi.html - "The Ghazi that defied the Indian Navy", by Ghani Eirabie. Mentions a quote from a book written by an Indian officer that the submarine most likely sank due to accidentally passing over the mines it laid earlier.
:::* http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/mar/maritime.htm - "Maritime Awareness and Pakistan Navy" by Commander (Retd) Muhammad AZAM KHAN
:::* http://www.ussdiablo.com/TheDiabloAdvocatepage11.htm - website dedicated to the USS Diablo (later re-named PNS Ghazi after transfer to Pakistan). Webpage contains images of the submarine, including a sonar image and a sketch of the sunken submarine. The webpage also states the following: "Above is a sketch done by Mr Sandeep Unnithan who recently wrote an article about the loss of the Ghazi/Diablo in the India Today magazine 1/26/04. It shows how our old ship now rests on the bottom in 32 meters of water. It appears an internal explosion occurred in the FTR."
:::* http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030824/spectrum/main6.htm - "Of a glorious Indian ship & sunken enemy submarine" by Trilochan Singh Trewn. An Indian article which states the sinking of the submarine was unintentional and due to the routine launching of depth charges when a warship is passing through areas likely to have enemy submarines present.

:::Obviously the important part of the above list is the General JFR Jacob article (in bold), where an Indian Army General states that he was told by a senior Indian Navy officer the PNS Ghazi had sank due to an "act of God" but to stay quiet about it so the Indian Navy could claim a kill. I've just checked, the article is still online. Indian editors I mentioned above claimed this to be a "fringe theory" and that Jacob is an army general so is not an authority on the navy, so kept removing the source from the article. Like I said, I asked for help on these noticeboards but nobody was interested:
:::* http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_13#PNS_Ghazi_article
:::* http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard/Archive_12#Addition_of_O.R._at_the_PNS_Ghazi_article
:::Hope this helps, good luck to you and leave me a message if you need me. I won't be editing much for a while, but I'm not leaving yet. --] (]) 11:27, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

::::Thanks for all the sources. As of now, I've handled PNS Ghazi topic and its sinking article with neutral sources. I'll use these if some one comes up with another claim. I'm also not a regular because of studies. Feel free to email<sup></sup> or contact me on my talk page. --] (]) 11:36, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

==A discrepancy==

can you have a look on http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Pakistan_Navy#Pak_Navy_Northern_Naval_Command_.28NNC.29_Eastern_Naval_Command_.28ENC.29_.3F.3F seems to me a Discrepancy. --]] 22:26, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
::http://www.paknavy.gov.pk ← check here if it verifies else remove. Also, all the wiki links made to those commands point to Indian Navy articles. --] (]) 22:44, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
::* I had already looked on that link above. it does not say about commands or may be i could not find it there. Well it seems someone had copied the infobox from Indian Navy article and forgot to change, hence the result. Do have a look to improve it when u r free.--]] 13:37, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
::::Hmm. Just checked the rest of the article. The commands do exist. Just linked wrong. Remove the links. ] --] (]) 13:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::* about ] i thought may be you aare interested to improve that article sadly i am wrong. never mind.--]] 20:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::::Yes, I am. But I thought we were last advised on a noticeboard to stay away from each other's talk pages... or are we best friends now? Anyway, Not compulsory part was for you too. Either you do it if you feel like or you don't. --] (]) 20:28, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

:::::::* U got it. :) well we are not best friends yet, but whats wrong in trying Wishing you A Happy Diwali. regards --]] 16:55, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::There's nothing better if we can edit mutually without grudges (I've fixed those wikilinks and replied on article's talk). Probably our RSN is also resolved (both turning out to be reliable). Enjoy the festival ! --] (]) 17:06, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

==Your edits to Operation Trident (1971)==
Your recent edits to ] have been reverted because you restored the article to a previous version of your edits without following due process. In the process, you overwrote a number of corrections others had made. You also added back casualty info that was not part of the operation to the infobox. This has been disputed and is being disucussed on the discussion page of the article. Please don't attempt to undo these edits without first resolving these issues on the article's discussion page.] (]) 02:00, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
:The due process is ]. If you get reverted comment on talk instead of re-reverting. It is the responsibility of the one who gets reverted to present his case on the talk page. --] (]) 05:19, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
::You need to follow that same due process. You changes were reverted first and you have the responsibility for getting consensus before you re-revert others changes.] (]) 07:46, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
:::Check out those dates and the date you changed my edits. It ''was'' according to the consensus. I was asked to get approved the pakdef site as a reliable source to make those changes on the talk page, which I did and edited. You are the one here who edited content. I'm open for debate on the talk page of article. --] (]) 07:51, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
::::You didn't revert a single edit. You reverted back to arbitrarily previous revision. You undid info on attack on PNS Shah Jahan for which I had added 3 citations in my edit timed "01:55, 26 October 2011". You also did not get consensus on your infobox edits for including info on the retaliaion. ] (]) 08:13, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::I reverted your first edit to which you didn't reply on talk and instead made more edits. along with the revert the text I added in infobox was cited and is under consideration on talkpage and was not the purpose of my reverts. See article edit history for reference of who edited first and got reverted. --] (]) 08:18, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
::::::The comment on your edit of "07:54, 26 October 2011" says '''I reverted all your changes in a go since you did it in parts which would take manual effort.''' Just because it requires manual effort is not an excuse for reverting multiple edits. If you aren't willing to put in the effort, you shouldn't be editing at all. Please familiarize yourself with ]. You made no attempt to improve the edit that you are contending. If there is an alternate viewpoint, you need to work on incorporating that constructively into the article. --] (]) 09:07, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::::There were significant issues to warrant the full revert. You changed the fueling facilities destroyed to 'a fuel tank' and made changes at so many other places in the same way. Also, the infobox discussion was already going on, if you really are aware of all the rules of ], you should know its wrong to edit that. About the comment, I can't seem to find the word 'manual' on both this and the article talk page (give the diff if you would like)... so i deleted that comment before you read? Doesn't that mean you can't talk about it? --] (]) 09:38, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
::::::::Read the revision history on the article. Your most recent comment stamped "07:54, 26 October 2011‎" is "''I reverted all your changes in a go since you did it in parts which would take manual effort.''" This clearly violates rules on reverting. Each of my edits was limited in scope. If you had an issue with the fuel tank edit, you need to either constructively edit or revert that specific edit with justification. You chose not to selectively revert each edit in order to bypass the 3-revert rule that you are so selectively quoting. On the infobox, you undid the edit by DBigXray first on "07:55, 16 October 2011". Heal thyself. --] (]) 10:06, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::Ok, found it. Yes, as I said, it was not an issue in itself. There were multiple issues. The rest of your edits were already discussed and had a consensus of getting the source approved, which I did. The infobox was already being debated upon. That makes some issue or other with almost all your edits. Manually editing each would still cause the same revert maybe leaving a few sentences. So it was better to discuss and then replace content manually to the current version. --] (]) 10:19, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::At this point, you've lost the plot. (1) You reverted the infobox edit of ] first without due process. (2) I added 3 citations on the PNS Shah Jahan damage, 2 of which were neutral citations (against your possibly biased citation of pakdef, which must be used-with-caution per your own words on ]. (3) I added date to the retaliation. You've undone all of this blindly and are stuck on justifying why you can't be bothered with making selective, constructive edits by clarifying issues you identify. --] (]) 10:46, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::::The due process was over. The source got approved so I edited as per consensus which asked me to get it approved. My words were caution is ''involved'' and not that the source should be used by caution, so donot misquote me. Even if we do take caution, you can not only refer to the previous discussion ''subjecting'' it to the approval of the source, but also, the source is ''fairly'' reliable since it has been quoted in various neutral books. The citations you added were in dispute. Thats called ] which you didn't follow. The only thing that got removed was the date (as in coherence with my last comment) which can be manually added to the ''current version'' with more ease rather than manually editing every thing for that single edit. So there was ''no'' blind reverting carried out here. I guess this topic is moving towards the article issues rather than my reverts now, so the better discussion place would be article's talkpage. As for my reverts, I've explained, nothing was unwarranted. Since you eagerly presented me with ], you should also see the section of the article ]. --] (]) 10:59, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

==Dispute on Operation Trident (1971)==
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "]". Thank you.<!--Template:AN-notice--> --] (]) 09:25, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

==Content==
] Welcome to Misplaced Pages. It might not have been your intention, but your recent edit removed content from Misplaced Pages. When removing content, please specify a reason in the ] and discuss edits that are likely to be controversial on the article's ]. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the content has been restored, as you can see from the ]. Take a look at the ] to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia, and if you would like to experiment, please use the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:uw-delete1 --> ] (]) 12:05, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

:Thankyou for informing me, the browser didn't load properly and the edit was made till the loaded content. I'll re-edit. --] (]) 12:12, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

==DRN==

involved in Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "]". Thank you.<!--Template:DRN-notice--> --]] 23:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

== Battle and theatre honours ==

Your point noted. However, the information is relevant and needs to be part of the article. It can be presented slightly differently and I will amend it subsequently. But however, you need to stop imputing motives. To balance the section, kindly source and add battle and theatre honours awarded to Pakistan Army instead of objecting to addition of content. ] (]) 02:37, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
:Had I been imputing motives, I would have reverted you. I have assumed good faith and so should you. No, It is not about whether Pakistani awards are added in a huge list as well, its about notability and the long list which seemed to overshadow the section, however, you got my point. It was a friendly warning to amend it in a way that you don't get POV allegations if they are notable enough to be there. You don't need to be defensive about everything. See ]. --] (]) 12:49, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

==ISI==

Im trying to make the paragraph about ISI role in Balouchistan conflict more netural, but it contains out right lies like ISI is using LEJ etc terrorirst groups which still attack the govt...please can you monitor it to stop other politically motivated groups from editing it thanks --] (]) 20:48, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
:I already have that article in my watchlist and am reverting any vandalism. Be sure to use reliable sources as your references so that editors don't object to you with POV label. --] (]) 20:54, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

here ...Ive restructed the page, so all the pakistan operation are together and removed some properganda like trying to portray Militia leaders as innocent but this user doesn't stop ..his sources are all from ethnic nationalist racist groups <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 21:00, 14 November 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I reviewed the content you removed and I think it is a valid removal. Look at the references he added; they include wordpress blogs and '']''. Don't worry about such edits. Keep track of edits of this user on this article since he's likely to added back again. I've warned him of vandalism on his talk page. Now on his next edit (if he adds content without a source or with a blog as a reference) revert and report him at ]. If that doesn't work, simply revert his edits warning him appropriately along each revert on his talk page so that administrators can see that he has been given warnings and incase he reverts you more 3 times in a short period (]) report him at ]. --] (]) 06:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

== WP:RSN ==

You should not have {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard|459315544|459297869|moved}} my comment per ]. ] (]) 23:30, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
:My move was according to the guidelines with your comment unedited. Quoted from ]:
::''<nowiki>Sectioning: If a thread has developed new subjects, it may be desirable to split it into separate discussions with their own headings or subheadings. When a topic is split into two topics, rather than subsectioned, it is often useful for there to be a link from the new topic to the original and vice versa. A common way of doing this is noting the change at the end of the original thread, and adding an unobtrusive note under the new heading, e.g. :<small>This topic was split off from ], above.. Some reformatting may be necessary to maintain the sense of the discussion to date and to preserve attribution. It is essential that splitting does not inadvertently alter the meaning of any comments</nowiki>''
:In addition you may review the consensus about the consideration in the collapsed section. The move was perfectly called for. Infact your creation of another subsection seems a bit inappropriate too since all other editors are commenting on the ''reliability'' too. I'll advise that you move that to the end of pakdef section. It is rather accustomary to ''bold'' your starting text in support or against the question because creating separate headings create confusing multiple posts. --] (]) 23:37, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
::Your {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard|459517713|459517099|"signing" for me and then starting a paragraph with "Interrupt Note"}} is a violation of ]. I suggest you remove my signature, move your "Interrupt Note" to the bottom or elsewhere in a different section so we can focus on determining the reliability of the source. ] (]) 01:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
::: As per ]:
::::''"Interruptions: In some cases, it is okay to interrupt a long contribution, either with a short comment (as a reply to a minor point) or with a heading (if the contribution introduces a new topic or subtopic; in that case, one might add :<small>Heading added for REASON by ] (]) 20:18, 8 November 2011 (UTC)</small> below the heading to make the nature of the change clearer). When introducing an interruptive break, please add <small><font color=gray> — ] {{#if:| ({{{2}}}),|,}} — (continues after insertion below.)</font></small><!--Template:Interrupted --> before the interruption. One may also manually ensure that attribution is preserved by copy-pasting the original signature to just before the interruption."''
:::Please stop ''assuming'' me to be a violator from the start, or you'll never be able to build a consensus with me on basis of reason. --] (]) 20:18, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

==You've got mail~!==
{{YGM}} --<small>] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">]</span></sup></small> 16:47, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
:Replied. --] (]) 17:18, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

== Pakistani textbooks ==

Hi. Misplaced Pages's ] are rather stringent – the underlying principle is that speedy deletion actions need to be uncontroversial. If there is any scope for disagreement, a discussion should be started instead and ] sought there (for the page ], the appropriate avenue would be ]). My undoing of your CSD request does not constitute wholesale approval of the situation as it currently stands, merely recognition of the fact that there may reasonably be thought to be differing views on whether or not this constitutes an appropriate redirect (it is not, in any case, ]). Hence to pursue the matter further you would need to take it to ]. ''']''' <sup>'''] / ]</sup>''' 17:11, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
:It significantly ''is'' obvious vandalism because the title Pakistani textbook controversy is significantly different from the title Pakistani textbooks. It would simply mislead a searching user for the textbook related content to the controversy. --] (]) 17:17, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
::Well, ] does not mention anything about the strings of the target and redirect pages having to be similar, only that there has to be a logical reason why one links to the other (point 5). If you want to argue this on point 3, presumably the counter-argument would be that this does not apply here (see ''e''.''g''. ] and related pages) because the only thing Pakistani textbooks are notable for is their bias. I'm not saying that that's right or that you're wrong, only that it is not unambiguously the case that one or the other. Hence, you would do better arguing your case before a larger number of people at ] than here. ''']''' <sup>'''] / ]</sup>''' 17:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

== Speedy deletion declined: Negationism in India: Concealing the Record of Islam ==
Hello Hassanhn5. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of ], a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: '''this article is about a book, so ] does not apply. If you think it should be deleted, consider AfD - I do not advise PROD as I think it would be contentious.''' Thank you. ] (]) 18:11, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
:Ok, thanks for notifying. --] (]) 18:34, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

== Re: File:BarnstarPK1.png ==

Yes. In fact, I personally desighned this BarnstarPK1.png by modifying Original Barnstar. ] (]) 01:52, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
:Great. Did it get approved? I didn't see it in a list... --] (]) 07:49, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

== A question ==

Have you edited under a previous account? Your insistence on attributing obvious statements of fact remind me of another editor. ] (]) 12:24, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
:No, this is my only account and I don't remember editing this article before. --] (]) 12:25, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
::So you have not edited Misplaced Pages under another account it the past? ] (]) 12:33, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
:::Never. Also, the statements are neither 'obvious' nor 'fact'. They are claims. --] (]) 12:34, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

==Disambiguation link notification==

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{{pic of the day}}
==Pakdef.info==
{{clear-left}}
Just had a brief look at the noticeboard, I guess PakDef has been declared unreliable by an admin? Pointless editing here if Pakistani sources are ignored.<br>
<!-- CAUTION: DO NOT EDIT ANYTHING ABOVE THIS LINE -->
--] (]) 06:11, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
:Yes, that was a fully ] consensus. Same should have been done to br site otherwise. --] (]) 08:09, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


{{-}}
== Flying ace ==
We're seeing it very differently. I saw a rv & a change to a gf edit, back to what I saw as a bad one, with what looked like a POV edit summary. (As for the "moving", IDK where that's from; AFAIK, I never touched the refs.) That, followed immediately by a 3RR warning, looked to me like an attempt to silence me. Then accusations of personal attacks? (AFAIK I made none, & the 3RR warning to you was no different in my mind than yours.) Then "the discussion is over"? So all you want is the last word & what I'm saying doesn't matter? That's how it looked to me. (And still looks.) FYI, I never looked at the sources, 'cause I saw no need to; I'm not challenging the truthfulness or accuracy of the claims, just not believing them. (This sort of thing isn't new, which is one reason I don't.) Yet you took issue with me for ''that'', too. Which only leaves me further convinced of POV editing. Am I overreacting? IDK. FWIW, the page is off my watchlist. I'm not interested in fighting over it, 'cause it just isn't worth it. ] ]</font> 13:35, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
:We definitely are seeing it differently. About the moving, you are free to confirm from the edit history (anyway since we are over it there's no point). My 3RR warning was not immediate but after 3 reverts (you can confirm that too). And no, I did not want to silence you, I was rather expecting a debate from you, instead you gave back the same warning. I know you did not challenge the content and I didn't even blame you for that. But your comments on my talk page were not ] and then you accused me of nationalism even when you yourself agree that you weren't even challenging the content and just not believing it, that's all I meant by the personal attack. The sole reason for reverts were moving back the content that (maybe mistakenly or not) went to the end of the sentence while the references were in the middle hence making that sentence look as if its not supported by them. And yes, I certainly don't want to leave a last comment, that's why I repeatedly asked you to end the discussion (with me willing to do the same). There is no point in fighting on an article talk page if we are not talking about ways to improve the article (or the article content). I guess this is a clarification enough for my reverts and warnings. I've given you an explanation of how the revert warnings work on your talkpage. They are usually informative warnings which you can confirm from ]. Cheers. --] (]) 13:47, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
== ] ==
pleasew discuss on the article talk page before making such major edits to the article, nowhere in MOS does it say that similar cotent cant be present in 2 different article. alsso maintain NPOV and do not remove content just because you do not like it. Your uncointrolled pro Pakistani POV pushing is not going unnoticed. consider this your only warning.--] (]) 03:20, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

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Picture of the day Fork-tailed flycatcher The fork-tailed flycatcher (Tyrannus savana) is a bird in the family Tyrannidae, the tyrant flycatchers. Named after their distinguishably long, forked tails, particularly in males, fork-tailed flycatchers are seen in shrubland, savanna, lightly forested and grassland areas, from southern Mexico south to Argentina. They tend to build their cup nests in similar habitats to their hunting grounds (riparian forests and grasslands). Males perform aerial courtship displays to impress females involving swirling somersaults, twists, and flips, all partnered with their buzzing calls. These courtship displays utilise the long tail feathers. This male fork-tailed flycatcher of the subspecies T. s. monachus was photographed in Cayo District, Belize, demonstrating its characteristic forked tail while in flight.Photograph credit: Charles J. Sharp Archive – More featured pictures...