Misplaced Pages

Talk:Israeli settlement: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 09:03, 28 November 2011 editShiefreal (talk | contribs)1 edit →Colony vs Civilian Community← Previous edit Latest revision as of 12:20, 29 December 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,303,087 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:Israeli settlement/Archive 13) (bot 
(997 intermediate revisions by more than 100 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{pp-move-indef|small=yes}}
{{Talk header|search=yes}} {{Talk header|search=yes}}
{{Auto archiving notice|bot=MiszaBot I|age=3|units=months|small=no|dounreplied=yes}}
<!-- Do not remove the sanction template --> <!-- Do not remove the sanction template -->
{{ARBPIA}}
{{Arab-Israeli Arbitration Enforcement}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|1=
{{sanctions|''' See ] for details.'''}}
{{WikiProject Israel|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject Israel|class=C|importance=Mid}} {{WikiProject Palestine|importance=high|attention=yes}}
{{WikiProject Palestine|class=B|importance=high|attention=yes}} {{WikiProject Syria|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Egypt|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration}} {{WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration}}
{{WikiProject Cities}}
}} }}
{{User:MiszaBot/config {{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}} |archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}}
|maxarchivesize = 250K |maxarchivesize = 250K
|counter = 12 |counter = 13
|minthreadsleft = 4 |minthreadsleft = 4
|algo = old(90d) |algo = old(180d)
|archive = Talk:Israeli settlement/Archive %(counter)d |archive = Talk:Israeli settlement/Archive %(counter)d
}} }}
Line 22: Line 24:
|leading_zeros=0 |leading_zeros=0
|indexhere=yes}} |indexhere=yes}}
{{Broken anchors|links=
* <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Ulpana lawsuits) is no longer available because it was ] before. <!-- {"title":"Ulpana lawsuits","appear":{"revid":554432036,"parentid":554430719,"timestamp":"2013-05-10T11:49:45Z","replaced_anchors":{"Ulpana lawsuit":"Ulpana lawsuits"},"removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":725072007,"parentid":725062973,"timestamp":"2016-06-13T11:20:49Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} -->
}}


== Demographics – Any details? ==

For instance, do statistics of the settlers' religions exist? Are any other such characteristics available? -- ] (]) 19:37, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
:If they are available anywhere I would have thought a good place try would be the ]. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 19:42, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

== Land ownership, and "Peace Now"'s report ==

I added the following argument about their report:

This report is disputed by the government, who argue it cannot have been privately owned, as it was "not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state".<ref> Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, May 20, 2001.</ref> On the specific issue of ], Peace Now faced criticism for downgrading their estimate of the proportion built on privately owned Palestinian land from 86%, to 0.5%.<ref>Alex Safian: CAMERA March 16, 2007.</ref> The group's revision was based on government information which had newly been released to them.<ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/837695.html |title= Peace Now: 32% of land held for settlements is private Palestinian property |publisher= ''Haaretz'' |first=Nadav |last=Shragai |date=2007-03-14 |accessdate=2009-07-06 }}</ref> Similarly, an initial figure of 71% of the land on which ] being private Palestinian land was revised to 22% following the release of additional information, and 'The Fund for Redeeming the Land' sued the group for libel. Peace Now was convicted, ordered to pay the Fund 20,000 NIS, and to make a public apology in the newspapers '']'' and ''].''<ref>{{cite news |url=http://sports.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/825/141.html |publisher=] |title= שלום עכשיו יפצו מתנחלים ב-20 אלף ש' |trans_title=Peace Now to compensate settlers w/ 20 thousand sheqel |language=Hebrew |date=2008-12-14 |accessdate=2009-07-06}}</ref>

A few minutes later the paragraph was erased stating that the sources are "Partisan", and that some of the points are about single settlements.
I do not understand this reasoning - the sources are Ha'aretz, Camera and nrg, and one of the sources is the governmental site, bringing Israel's official's answer. I can't see what is bad with the sources, and even if for any reason one of the sources isn't considered reliable, that is not a reason to erase the whole paragraph.
And the fact that part of the points discuss single settlements also is not a reason to erase the data, since in these cases it was proven that the "Peace Now" report was far from accurate. ] (]) 19:16, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
:That is a fairly partisan way of framing things. The original Peace Now report on Ma'ale Adumim was based on leaked Israeli government documents. The Israeli government declined to release official documents and was sued by Peace Now. Peace Now won that lawsuit and the government released the requested documents. As a result of this, Peace Now corrected its numbers. This is the problem with depending on CAMERA and other similar sources. They may get certain things right, like Peace Now issued a correction for a prior estimate, but they slant it in such a way that the story is almost unrecognizable. And in the end, this isnt an article about Peace Now or their settlement reports. Peace Now has released up to date material based on official government records, including the Sasson report. That entire section needs to be rewritten so that it discusses the actual issue at hand, land ownership, not this pretend issue that is in any event not relevant to this article, that being the actual report. Also, though going in the wrong direction, the first sentence in your edit conflates unrelated ideas, one being whether or not the property was privately owned and the other being whether or not the property is on occupied territory. Under international law, a state may not transfer its own population into or the native population out of territory it holds under military occupation. This is the reason why nearly the entire world considers all Israeli settlements to be illegal under international law. That is not affected by whether or not the actual area that a settlement is built on is privately or publicly owned. Israel argues, most of the time, that Jordan was not a legal occupant of the West Bank and as such the West Bank is not occupied territory. That is why Israel "disputes" that the settlements themselves are illegal under international law. A separate topic is whether or not the actual land that a settlement was built on was illegally expropriated from a private owner. That is what the Peace Now reports deal with, property that was privately owned by Palestinians that was expropriated, in violation of Israeli, not international, law. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 19:46, 1 May 2011 (UTC)</small>

== Demographics ==


== Haaretz article: "Secret 1970 document confirms first West Bank settlements built on a lie." ==
I haven't found in the resources the data of the just 2300 Jews in East Jerusalem in 1948. According to the data in ] the population in the whole Jerusalem was of 100 000 Jews, 40 000 Muslims and 25 000 Christians in the same year. --] (]) 19:04, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


Haaretz - Yotam Berger - , 28 July 2016. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span>
⚫ == Link 52 ==


== Security isn't a "pretext" ==
The 52nd cited link is broken, I don't know how to fix it but if someone could either find the right link or take it down and the information taken from it that would be great! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:56, 16 November 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


Under '''4.2 Settlement Policy''', the article reads "The government abrogated the prohibition from purchasing occupied land by Israelis; the "Drobles Plan", a plan for large-scale settlement in the West Bank meant to prevent a Palestinian state under the pretext of security became the framework for its policy."
== Colony vs Civilian Community ==


The dictionary definition of pretext is ''something that is put forward to conceal a true purpose or object; an ostensible reason; excuse''.
I changed the opening sentences of the article and my edits were reverted. The original paragraph was:


The provided citation doesn't support the copy in the wiki article. The document doesn't say that security was a pretext. The document says security is one of several reasons to develop the settlements. The cited article reads, "The following are the principles which guided the plan: 1. Settlement throughout the entire Land of Israel is for security and by right, A strip of settlements at strategic sites enhances both internal and external security alike, as well as making concrete and realizing our right to Eretz Israel..."
''An Israeli settlement is a Jewish civilian community built on land that was captured by Israel from Jordan, Egypt, and Syria during the 1967 Six-Day War and is considered occupied territory by the international community. Such settlements currently exist in the West Bank. Israeli neighborhoods in East Jerusalem and communities in the Golan Heights, areas which have been annexed by Israel, are considered settlements by the international community, which does not recognize Israel's annexations of these territories.''


So the article isn't even denying that it assumes that the Israelis have some sort of biblical or historical right to Israel, BUT it also argues that the settlements would improve security.
and I changed it to this:


There is also the matter that the same section of this article implies that these cited documents were written by representatives of the Israeli government; they were not, they were written by departments of the World Zionist Organization which is an NGO and not directed by the Israeli government. It was essentially written by a think tank advocating a certain perspective but the article casts it as from the central government planning office. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) </small>
''An Israeli settlement is an Israeli colony illegally built on land captured by Israel from Jordan, Egypt, and Syria during the 1967 Six-Day War. These colonies are built on occupied territory. Such unlawful settlements currently exist in the West Bank. There are also Israeli colonies in East Jerusalem and communities in the Golan Heights, areas which have been annexed by Israel.''


⚫ == ICJ ==
My rationale for rephrasing the paragraph was that you don't call dwellings on illegally occupied territories civilian communities but colonies.


The findings of the ICJ should be treated factually and not on a POV and attribution basis. I.e. I am in favor of the settlements being simply called illegal in the opening sentence, as described by every major RS. ] (]) 09:34, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Another reason is that the emotional impact of the former is little more than this:


:Given that now have an authoritative statement of the law on this matter, it should be straightforward to find RS reporting of same without caveats, it really doesn't matter any more whether "Israel disputes this" other than as historical background, imo this boilerplate should be removed from articles. There was a consensus about it somewhere but I forget where, perhaps it needs revisiting now. ] (]) 09:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
''The strike on Twin Towers on 11 September, 2001 was a violent act committed by some students getting pilot training in the United States. This led to the death of more than 3,000 people including the students after they knowingly smashed their planes in the buildings. The international community considers it an act of terrorism but this view is not universal and has its critics who claim the students acted out of frustration.''
::Agreed; it should be Israel's arguments were refuted, rather than the classical and boring "Israel disputes this", which to me always sounded like writing on ]: "The earth is round, but flat earthers dispute this." ] (]) 09:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
:::OK, existing consensus ] (thanks to {{Re|Sean.hoyland}} for the link).
:::It would seem that the situation has changed, even before the ICJ opinion, the US accepts (once again, post Trump) that the settlements are illegal so together with the opinion, that seems sufficient to reopen the question with a view to removing the "Israel disputes this" part and possibly rewording the rest. ] (]) 11:08, 23 July 2024 (UTC)


== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 July 2024 ==
I was told to make my case here. That's good. So, anyone who thinks what I did was wrong? And kindly tell why? :)


{{Edit extended-protected|Israeli settlement|answered=yes}}
] (]) 14:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I suggest that the latest 2023 west bank access restrictions map from OCHA be added. Link provided below:
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/west-bank-access-restrictions-may-2023 ] (]) 18:59, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> It's a good map, but unfortunately it's . <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ])</span> 01:07, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
::{{re|CanonNi}} https://commons.wikimedia.org/Template:PD-UN-map ] (]) 10:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)


== create page: ] ==
:I'm copying this from my talk page as it belongs here. If you think the article and its lead do not give due weight to the view that these are colonies and the occupation is an act of colonization, you need to compile high quality (preferably academic) secondary sources that examine and describe this perspective, then make your case. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 15:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


# unofficial
Explain how indigenous people building communities in their Arab-occupied homeland is colonization.
# official
] (]) 02:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:20, 29 December 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Israeli settlement article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13Auto-archiving period: 6 months 
Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

  • You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
  • You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Further information
The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:
  1. Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
  2. Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

  • Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
  • Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!
This article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconIsrael Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Project Israel To Do:

 Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
WikiProject iconPalestine High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Misplaced Pages. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Note icon
This article has been marked as needing immediate attention.
WikiProject iconSyria Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Syria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Syria on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SyriaWikipedia:WikiProject SyriaTemplate:WikiProject SyriaSyria
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconEgypt Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Egypt, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Egypt on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EgyptWikipedia:WikiProject EgyptTemplate:WikiProject EgyptEgypt
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconIsrael Palestine Collaboration
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of the WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration, a collaborative, bipartisan effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. See also {{Palestine-Israel enforcement}}, the ArbCom-authorized discretionary sanctions, the log of blocks and bans, and Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. You can discuss the project at its talk page.Israel Palestine CollaborationWikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationTemplate:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationIsrael Palestine Collaboration
WikiProject iconCities
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of cities, towns and various other settlements on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CitiesWikipedia:WikiProject CitiesTemplate:WikiProject CitiesWikiProject Cities

Tip: Anchors are case-sensitive in most browsers.

This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.

  • ] The anchor (#Ulpana lawsuits) is no longer available because it was deleted by a user before.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. | Reporting errors


Haaretz article: "Secret 1970 document confirms first West Bank settlements built on a lie."

Haaretz - Yotam Berger - Secret 1970 document confirms first West Bank settlements built on a lie, 28 July 2016. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZScarpia (talk • contribs)

Security isn't a "pretext"

Under 4.2 Settlement Policy, the article reads "The government abrogated the prohibition from purchasing occupied land by Israelis; the "Drobles Plan", a plan for large-scale settlement in the West Bank meant to prevent a Palestinian state under the pretext of security became the framework for its policy."

The dictionary definition of pretext is something that is put forward to conceal a true purpose or object; an ostensible reason; excuse.

The provided citation doesn't support the copy in the wiki article. The document doesn't say that security was a pretext. The document says security is one of several reasons to develop the settlements. The cited article reads, "The following are the principles which guided the plan: 1. Settlement throughout the entire Land of Israel is for security and by right, A strip of settlements at strategic sites enhances both internal and external security alike, as well as making concrete and realizing our right to Eretz Israel..."

So the article isn't even denying that it assumes that the Israelis have some sort of biblical or historical right to Israel, BUT it also argues that the settlements would improve security.

There is also the matter that the same section of this article implies that these cited documents were written by representatives of the Israeli government; they were not, they were written by departments of the World Zionist Organization which is an NGO and not directed by the Israeli government. It was essentially written by a think tank advocating a certain perspective but the article casts it as from the central government planning office. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.54.105.157 (talk)

ICJ

The findings of the ICJ should be treated factually and not on a POV and attribution basis. I.e. I am in favor of the settlements being simply called illegal in the opening sentence, as described by every major RS. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:34, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Given that now have an authoritative statement of the law on this matter, it should be straightforward to find RS reporting of same without caveats, it really doesn't matter any more whether "Israel disputes this" other than as historical background, imo this boilerplate should be removed from articles. There was a consensus about it somewhere but I forget where, perhaps it needs revisiting now. Selfstudier (talk) 09:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Agreed; it should be Israel's arguments were refuted, rather than the classical and boring "Israel disputes this", which to me always sounded like writing on Earth: "The earth is round, but flat earthers dispute this." Makeandtoss (talk) 09:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
OK, existing consensus Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Current Article Issues/Archive. Legality of Israeli settlements (thanks to @Sean.hoyland: for the link).
It would seem that the situation has changed, even before the ICJ opinion, the US accepts (once again, post Trump) that the settlements are illegal so together with the opinion, that seems sufficient to reopen the question with a view to removing the "Israel disputes this" part and possibly rewording the rest. Selfstudier (talk) 11:08, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 July 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I suggest that the latest 2023 west bank access restrictions map from OCHA be added. Link provided below: https://www.ochaopt.org/content/west-bank-access-restrictions-may-2023 TheTrackRecord (talk) 18:59, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: It's a good map, but unfortunately it's copyrighted. ''']''' (talk • contribs) 01:07, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
@CanonNi: https://commons.wikimedia.org/Template:PD-UN-map Selfstudier (talk) 10:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

create page: Israelification of land

  1. unofficial
  2. official

2A02:2149:8B02:4F00:51D1:3E49:2755:6F87 (talk) 02:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Categories: