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== Animal rights topic categories ==

See the discussion on the topic of this article at the talk page of related article, {{section link|Talk:Halal|Animal rights topic categories}}. ] (]) 15:25, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

== Requested move 7 April 2018 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''no consensus to move''' the page to any particular title at this time, per the discussion below. ]<small>]</small> 02:11, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
---- ----


RK: I guess there are quite a few Jews who follow kashrut, but only in part. (E.g. they might avoid obvious things like eating pork, but ignore most of the other dietary rules.) I think it would useful if the article mentioned that. Also, some Jews don't follow kashrut without clearing fitting into categories like Reform or Reconstructionist (e.g., according to a newspaper article I recently read, a lot of recent immigrants from the former Soviet Union to Israel -- I doubt most of them consciously identify as Reform or anything like that.) -- ]


] → {{no redirect|Kosher}} – Per the Misplaced Pages article naming conventions at ], an article's title should be the common English name for the topic. ] (]) 15:30, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Capon isn't a species of bird; it's a neutered bird. Should it be listed here? -]
*'''Comment:''' It certainly appears that the topic of this article is the dietary laws themselves, for which "kashrut" is the common English spelling of the term. ''']'''&nbsp;] 16:40, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
::'''Comment''': "Kosher laws" is a far more common English term for the dietary laws themselves than "Kashrut". I'm not sure that "Kashrut" is even considered to be a proper English word by the article, as the article italicizes the term throughout the article, signifying that it's a foreign word rather than an English word. Moving the article to ] is another possibility. ] (]) 17:26, 7 April 2018 (UTC)


*'''Oppose''' per ]/]. The proposed title does not reflect the topic of the article and is an adjective rather than a noun. According to the article, ''kashrut'' is a set of Jewish religious dietary laws, while the adjective that describes food that may be consumed is ''kosher''. The article deals with the dietary laws and not merely foods that are kosher. In print sources (and Google web searches), the term "kosher laws" is far less common than "kashrut" according to '''''' If there is really a problem with the current title, a descriptive like ] would be a better choice. — ] 01:24, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
-----
*] is also about Jewish dietary laws. IMO, that's a better title. Merriam Webster spells this word as "kashruth" and defines it as "the state of being kosher." ] (]) 08:14, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
The below text has been removed for the mean time for being a little too broad in its accusations:
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a ]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->


== Seventh-Day Adventists ==
''The kosher method of slaughtering animals has been criticized as being cruel; it has been forbidden in a number of European countries. These campaigns are often accompanied by ] remarks from government members of the nations, as well as anti-Semitic remarks from members of the non-governmental organizations which have taken the intiative in trying to ban kosher food. Jewish groups hold that these campaigns are based on ], and have no valid basis in animal rights. This has been evidenced by the fact that many opponents of kosher meat have publicly stated that "the Jews" should leave the country if they don't like the restrictions being put on them.''


Why is the postion of the Seventh-day Adventists on breakfast cereals relevant to the lead of the page on Jewish dietary laws?
Which European countries? What remarks? What is often? How is this different from the opposition to islamic slaughtering? Why does the slaughtering of animals in a kosher way have no basis in animal rights, when many animal rights activist oppose '''all''' methods of slaughtering of animals? Why is there even a need for a paragraph, when this could possibly be dealt with in a single sentence? Let's make it a little more precise before putting it back -]


If no one objects, I'll remove it.
Although I want this material restored, I am refraining from doing so because you have raised some excellent questions that must answered. I am compiling a list of European nations which have banned kosher slaughter, as well as a brief list of remarks that many Jews find anti-Semitic. I believe that the nations are Norway, Denmark, and Sweden. The nation of Holland has banned some types of kosher slaughter, but I believe is being accomodating and is working with the Jewish community to make sure that the methods used there are fully in accord with the nation's laws on this subject. As for the idea that some groups are against the slaughtering of all animals, we know that this is false. All the extant laws banning slaughter only ban Jewish, and sometimes Islamic, methods of slaughter. None of these nations ban the types of slaughter practiced by Christians or secular Jews, Muslims, etc. It is clear that only religious Jews (and sometimes Muslims) are the target. None of the European nations has made any attempt to ban all animal slaughter.


] (]) 09:34, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
A newspaper article notes
http://jewishworldreview.com/0702/euro_kosher.html <br>
Abraham Foxman, the Anti-Defamation League's national director, who is currently touring Europe to assess the wave of anti-Semitism, said the bans are the result of activism between animal rights extremists "aided and abetted" by anti-Semitic politicians. "Sometimes anti-Semites will use this as a vehicle to try to isolate the Jewish community by reaching out to those who are so preoccupied with ," said Foxman in an interview from Rome. "The key is whether or not there is a history in that country ? what other issues of animal rights have they engaged in to prohibit cruelty? When they begin and end with kosher slaughter, that's when I become suspect."


== rewrite of "Pareve foods" section ==
:What you need to do is unequivocally prove that the reason those European countries "banned" kosher slaughtering had to do with anti-Semitism, rather than being based in ] concerns. Doubtless there are anti-Semites that would advocate such a ban and disguise it as caring for animals, but it is outright preposterous to suggest without proof that the entire government decided on a ban based primarily on this sentiment, rather than any other (and especially the obvious animal rights one).


I think the pareve foods section needs a rewrite. Below is the the section as it stands now followed by my proposed changes.
:You're also not being fair towards animal rights activists. I'm not one of them, but I do know many oppose all slaughter of animals (check the Misplaced Pages link). It has nothing to do with the method used per se, but rather with the simple killing for consumption motive. I believe this is more an issue of freedom of religion versus animal rights, rather than a case of anti-Semitism. You seem to downplay the fact that islamic butchers should be facing the same restrictions, how is the islamic situation in the countries you accuse? Just what practises are banned? -]


===Pareve foods===
::RK, to add to Scipius' point, some theorists of the liberal state (in this case, meaning people who believe rights to belong to individuals and not groups), such "humane slaughter" laws are not discriminatory because Jews and Muslims do not have to eat meat; they choose to. Scipius, in support of RK, the deleted text does not claim that such laws are intrinsically anti-semitic, only that they are often accompanied by anti-semitic rhetoric. Would you rather the claim were narrowed to "sometimes?" In any event, I agree that the claim is stronger when specific examples are provided. But you are not being fair to RK, or you did not read the text -- it did not by any means claim or suggest that "that the reason those European countries "banned" kosher slaughtering had to do with anti-Semitism," there for I see no need for RK to "prove" this claim. ]
Some processes convert a meat or dairy product into a '']'' (neither meat nor dairy) one. For example, ] is sometimes made from stomach linings, yet is acceptable for making kosher cheese,<ref>''The rennet must be kosher, either microbial or from special productions of animal rennet using kosher calf stomachs.'' {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120306151416/http://oukosher.org/index.php/articles/single/2828/ |date=2012-03-06 }}, Retrieved August 10, 2005.</ref> but such cheeses might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese made from a vegetarian rennet. The same applies to kosher ], an animal product, derived from kosher animal sources. Other gelatin-like products from non-animal sources such as ] and ] are ''pareve'' by nature. ''Fish gelatin'' is derived from fish and is therefore (like all kosher fish products) ''pareve''. ]s are also considered ''pareve'' despite being an animal product.<ref>{{cite web|title=Meat, Dairy and Pareve|url=http://www.ok.org/Content.asp?ID=63|publisher=]|accessdate=March 15, 2013}}</ref> Bread is often prepared without dairy to be pareve<ref></ref>.


''Kashrut'' has procedures by which equipment can be cleaned of its previous non-kosher use, but that might be inadequate for those with allergies, vegetarians, or adherents to other religious statutes. For example, dairy manufacturing equipment can be cleaned well enough that the rabbis grant ''pareve'' status to products manufactured with it. Nevertheless, someone with a strong allergic sensitivity to dairy products might still react to the dairy residue, and that is why some products that are legitimately pareve carry "milk" warnings.<ref>{{cite web|title=Kosher Consumer Misconsumptions|url=http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-KosherConsumerMisconsumptions.htm|publisher=]|accessdate=March 15, 2013}}</ref>
:::I disagree, the original text most certainly tried to suggest that people who seek restrictions on kosher meat do this for primarily anti-Semitic reasons, which is a claim that needs to be firmly corroborated. Some 70% of the text above is about anti-Semitism. Look at the last sentence of the text: it states that "many opponents of kosher meat have publicly stated that "the Jews" should leave the country if they don't like the restrictions being put on them". This should be easily demonstrable, and it should be evident from government spokespersons, since "these campaigns are often accompanied by anti-Semitic remarks from government members of the nations". Let's have them, and demonstrate that this is the clear basis for the ban. Otherwise this is simply opinion and hardly a NPOV one. RK is simply not fairly representing the animal rights view, down to the point of completely negating their argument. He doesn't necessarily have to, since this article isn't about animal rights, but he does when he makes such accusations.
{{reflist-talk}}


===Pareve foods===
:::Here's a replacement text I propose: ''The kosher method of slaughtering animals has been criticized by as being cruel towards the animal and restrictions are in place in some countries primarily in the interest of ], as is the case for the related islamic slaughtering method. Some Jewish (and Muslim) groups however feel this may be in part fueled by discriminatory sentiments, rather than concern for the animal, and protest the restrictions on this basis. Other countries have made special exemptions for ritual slaughtering techniques such as Kashrut.'' -]
{{Main article|Pareve}}
A ''Pareve'' (or ''Parve'') food is one which is neither meat nor dairy. Fish fall into this category, as well as any food which is not animal-derived.


]s are also <u>considered</u> ''pareve'' despite being an animal product.<ref>{{cite web|title=Meat, Dairy and Pareve|url=http://www.ok.org/Content.asp?ID=63|publisher=]|accessdate=March 15, 2013}}</ref>
The issue is not always that Kashrut is outlawed; England has "humane slaughter" rules, from which Jews and Muslims are exempt -- and some have questioned the fairness of giving certain groups such exemptions. In other countries a different sort of compromise wa sreached: Peter Singer, in his book Animal Liberation(p. 154), describes how Rabbis in Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland, agreed to stun animals before slaughtering them. By the way, I am not entirely convinced that slaughterhouses that follow "humane slaughtering" rules are really that humane. It makes me wonder how much of this issue may be a red herring. ]


Some processes convert a meat or dairy derived product into a pareve one. For example, ] is sometimes made from stomach linings, yet is acceptable for making kosher cheese.<ref>''The rennet must be kosher, either microbial or from special productions of animal rennet using kosher calf stomachs.'' {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120306151416/http://oukosher.org/index.php/articles/single/2828/ |date=2012-03-06 }}, Retrieved August 10, 2005.</ref> <s>but such cheeses might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese made from a vegetarian rennet.</s> Gelatin derived from kosher animal sources (which were ritually slaughtered) are also ''pareve''.<ref>{{cite web|title=Kosher Gelatin:How a Product from Beef Can be Used in Dairy Delicacies|url=https://oukosher.org/blog/industrial-kosher/the-fascinating-story-of-kosher-gelatin-or-how-a-product-from-beef-can-be-used-in-dairy-delicacies|publisher=]|accessdate=February 7, 2019}}</ref> <u>Such cheese and gelatin might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese or gelatin made from a vegetarian sources.</u>
----
Scipius writes "You're also not being fair towards animal rights activists. I'm not one of them, but I do know many oppose all slaughter of animals (check the Misplaced Pages link). It has nothing to do with the method used per se, but rather with the simple killing for consumption motive."


Other gelatin-like products from non-animal sources such as ] and ] are ''pareve'' by nature. Fish gelatin, like all kosher fish products, is ''pareve''.
:You are confused. This is not at all what I am talking about. I am well aware that some animal rights groups are trying to ban the slaughter of animals of food. So what? This has nothign to do with the topic I dicussed, namely the attempts of European groups and governments to only ban Jewish butchers, but to allow Christian butchers. The vast majority of animals slaughtered for food is done by gentiles, for gentiles, and this is not banned. It is only the Jews who are forbidden from procuring meat. Your rebuttal is against a claim I never made. <i>Of course</i> it is not anti-Semitic for a nation to ban all slaughter. But such an event has not occured. ]


Jewish law <u>generally</u> requires that bread be kept ''parve (i.e.,'' not kneaded with meat or dairy products, or made on meat or dairy equipment).<ref></ref>
::I'm hardly the one who's confused. Did you not write: "As for the idea that some groups are against the slaughtering of all animals, we know that this is false"? The entire paragraph clearly tried to suggest that the restrictions on kosher meat had everything to do with anti-Semitism, without fairly demonstrating why this would be the case. Since you appear to be in the know on this issue, why won't you tell us how the islamic slaughtering method is treated, which should be facing the same restrictions? -]
Scipus writes "This should be easily demonstrable, and it should be evident from government spokespersons, since "these campaigns are often accompanied by anti-Semitic remarks from government members of the nations". Let's have them, and demonstrate that this is the clear basis for the ban. Otherwise this is simply opinion and hardly a NPOV one."


''Kashrut'' has procedures by which equipment can be cleaned of its previous non-kosher or meat/dairy use, but those may be inadequate for vegetarians, those with allergies, or adherents to other religious statutes. For example, dairy manufacturing equipment can be cleaned well enough that the rabbis grant ''pareve'' status to products manufactured with it but someone with a strong allergic sensitivity to dairy products might still react to the dairy residue. That is why some products that are legitimately pareve carry "milk" warnings.<ref>{{cite web|title=Kosher Consumer Misconsumptions|url=http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-KosherConsumerMisconsumptions.htm|publisher=]|accessdate=March 15, 2013}}</ref>
:You misunderstand. I am not saying that everyone must agree with the fact that these actions are anti-Semitic. Without firm proof, such a claim would be a violation of NPOV. Rather, I am saying that Jewish groups feel that these actions are likely based in some anti-Semitic feelings. And that description of how many Jews feel is absolutely correct, and thus it is NPOV. Further, none of your responses directly dealt with any of my comments. Instead, you are simpyl claiming that I am attacking animal rights in general, which is utterly false. (I never even imagined that this had anything to do with the subject.) My statements were about the fact that certain European nations were discriminating against Jews and Jews alone, irregardless of the mechanics of how animal actually were killed, and this singling out of Jews is hard to explain except by noting the vast amount of anti-Semitism that permeates Europe. (Note that the number of anti-Semitic incidents in Europe in the last few years is even greater than in the early 1930s, when the Nazi movement was building.) ]


] (]) 00:28, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
::"And that description of how many Jews feel is absolutely correct, and thus it is NPOV". Just because "many" Jews feel that it is true, doesn't mean that it is in fact true, it is just ''one'' point of view. This is not an exclusively Jewish encyclopedia and therefore ''all'' points of view should be given fair and equal treatment. That was my problem with the text as it was, it seemed to focus solely on trying to claim opponents of the kosher slaughtering method were doing this purely out of anti-Semitism, which, if you can't prove it, is unfair when you don't allow for the other side's arguments. Both sides' arguments should be equal to us, so that we have a neutral point of view.
{{reflist-talk}}


:{{ping|Hydromania}} I'm basically fine with your proposal, which I think definitely improves the section. Using underline and strikeout, I made some edits:
::Obviously animal rights are concerned in this issue, don't try to claim you never had any idea it had, if that's what you meant. It said right in the first line of the removed text that is was being criticised as being cruel. As for the "fact" that this ban is only on Kashrut, can you verify then that islamic slaughtering techniques are not banned in those same countries? That would after all be a good indication that it may indeed be influenced by anti-Semitism. -]
:*"considered" (my style, I guess)
:*unacceptable to vegetarians—presumably applies to the gelatin issue, too, so I reordered a little, even though it separates meat-derived gelatin from vegetable-derived products. I added a paragraph break, but I don't feel strongly about that.
:*"generally": Single-serving breads that are known generally to be dairy, say, are allowed by most authorities. That is why ]s with dairy hechshers are allowed.
:Decide how you'd like to address my proposed changes, then feel free to put it in the article (without the underlines and strikeouts). ] (]) 16:44, 8 February 2019 (UTC)


::{{ping|StevenJ81}}
The anti-semitic actions in Europe come from the right-wing fringe, not from the left-wing governments, which fight those right-wing elements but still enact humane-butchering rules because they are close to the animal-rights movement. Furthermore you claim that these rules discriminate against Jews and Jews alone, which is incorrect: they discriminate against anybody who desires to use the proscribed butchering rules, and I believe this also includes some Arabs. The "mechanics of how the animals actually are killed" is precisely what matters, nothing else. ]
::*"considered" - I don't really like it. If Jewish law considers it pareve, then, for the purposes of this entry on Jewish dietary laws, it is parve. But I'll leave it in as the previous version had it too.
::* you definitely improved it. But I think the entire part about vegetarians should be taken out. The parve article goes into it. And obviously kosher animal derived gelatin is not vegetarian.
::*"generally" good catch
::] (]) 18:53, 8 February 2019 (UTC)


:::{{like}} ]. --] (]) 22:37, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
:Maybe. My concern is that these countries do not only bad one specific mechanic; they have flat out banned all forms of kosher slaughter. All attempts at compromise have failed. They won't even allow any discussion, which is a bad sign. Since they refuse to even discuss the issue (to find a way that Jews can carry out their actions in accord with the new animal-rights laws of these nations), many Jews are reluctantly saying that this probably has something to do with anti-Semitism. They feel that they are left with few alternatives. ]


== The 1/60th Rule ==


], I think that an extra section for the kashrut law of "''Bateil BeShishim'' - One In Sixty parts" is needed.
:I like the new text, though the untrue statement about the Netherlands had to go (read the article referenced above). I've further edited the text a little more for nuances. Shall we agree this can stay? -]
Here are some links that can be for help:
*
*
*
*
Thanks and cheers. --] (]) 23:29, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


:Hi there {{ping|תנא קמא}} I personally believe the Misplaced Pages entry should focus on the general facets of the biblical commandment and the rabbinical additions, rather than the more specific laws of kosher. The 1/60 rule is just getting into details. ] (]) 06:46, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
-----


::{{ping|Hydromania}}, you tagged the ] section for clarification, as it mentions this law, and needs elaboration. --] (]) 13:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
Scipus writes "Just because "many" Jews feel that it is true, doesn't mean that it is in fact true, it is just ''one'' point of view. This is not an exclusively Jewish encyclopedia and therefore ''all'' points of view should be given fair and equal treatment.


:::{{ping|תנא קמא}} The genetically modified foods section needs a rewrite. I haven't found any sources which explain both sides of the question. That specific part should probably just say something like 'it's kosher because the gene is a miniscule part of the fish, and the fish still resembles a kosher fish' as the OU says and drop the 1/60 rule entirely ] (]) 22:02, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
:You are arguing against a point that I am <b>not</b> making. I <b>agree</b> with what you just said. I am unsure of why we are having this disagreement, over a point that I agree with you on. Let me try and straighten things out. You hold that, given the current information, it would a violation of NPOV to state that these laws are definately caused primarilly by anti-Semitism. And for the moment, I agree with you. However, it is in accord with NPOV to write that Jewish groups really do believe that these laws are to some large or small extent, anti-Semitic. This isn't saying that the Jewish POV is an indisputable fact it is pointing out that this is what some of these groups believe. You write that "it is unfair when you don't allow for the other side's arguments. Both sides' arguments should be equal to us, so that we have a neutral point of view." I just want you to know that I agree with you on this.


== Tobacco ==
::Well, I'm glad to see we can agree on the concept of NPOV, but the devil is as always in the details...;) The problem is how you state the kosher position, it is far too accusational, giving no room for the other side's argument. -]


I would suggest reading the sources before deleting cited content. The sources discuss tobacco that is certified Kosher for Passover in Israel. This is because tobacco is considered to contain ingredients forbidden during Passover. Maybe there is a better article for this, but I don't know which that is. Maybe I can revise the content and move it to the Passover section. Cannabis issue same, not only for eating, but debate about whether it is a legume. Please do not make things up. ] (]) 17:15, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Scipus writes "Obviously animal rights are concerned in this issue, don't try to claim you never had any idea it had, if that's what you meant."
:It has nothing to do with kashruth of dietary, it has to do with chametz issues. I suggest you check your attitude. This article is on the dietary issues of kosher laws, not on chametz issues. Tobacco has no dietary issues and as such does not belong here. ] <sup>]</sup> 19:27, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
::Of course certification is an issue for this article, not only a theoretical dispute that certification has expanded beyond what ''should be'' covered by ''kashrut''. For this you have presented no supporting sources. To add such commentary would be valuable, if there are supporting sources. However, deletion is not appropriate here, ] (]) 19:37, 12 February 2019 (UTC)


== Merger proposal ==
:Please don't be angry, you seem to misunderstand my claim. I agree that there are animal rights people who are trying to ban all animal slaughter. However, this is not what the article mentioned. The article mentioned the actual events in which Jews and Jews alone were prevented from slaughtering animals, while gentiles and usually Muslims were allowed to do so. You still seem to be arguing against a point that I was not making. ]
I propose merging the page ] into this one.
*] applies to food. Kosher foods are foods which kashrut permits or prohibits. '''The subject is exactly the same'''.
*As written now, they both cover the same ground.
*I have not found ''any'' discussion on why there are two pages for the same subject.
*As the older more stable page (former FA, GA) Kashrut should be the surviving article
*The name can be discussed. Kashrut is more accurate, Kosher is more prevalent. However, note that this has been discussed many times previously and hasn't been changed. Any new discussion should be '''after the merger'''.
*One argument to make is that the Kashrut page is too long and clunky. I agree to an extent, and believe that after we merge any useful information from kosher foods into this one we should work on spinning of some of the sections into subpages.
] (]) 06:17, 17 February 2019 (UTC)


* I don't know. Kosher foods is more about the various foods themselves, while this article is more about about the institution of how to certify them. There is a certain overlap between the two, but that is not yet a reason to merge. Another good reason not to merge is that both article are not that small, and a merged article would be quite large, see ]. ] (]) 09:58, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
::No, you still have given no evidence that every country that has banned kosher meat (and only kosher meat, i.e. not halal meat) did so motivated primarily by anti-semitism. In fact, I would like to see where Jews were forbidden from slaughtering, whereas Muslims were not, since the two methods are AFAIK related. Remember, this is not about Christianity versus Judaism or Islam, but about religious, ritualistic slaughter versus industrial of conventional slaughter. -]
:: Kashrut article is not only foods, it includes manufacturing equipment and details not usually discussed in food articles. Only question is overlap with Jewish cuisine, but this will be controversial and some sources exist to say it does not have to be kosher cuisine to be Jewish.] (]) 19:11, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
::: Debresser: But it isn't really. That article is ]. This one has more on the foods than it does on certification or philosophy. ] (]) 02:22, 21 February 2019 (UTC)


* Yeah, this is a tough one. The Kosher foods article focuses more heavily on the foods themselves. It would make for a very long and unwieldy article. Slightly '''oppose.''' --] (]) 14:12, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
Scipus writes "As for the "fact" that this ban is only on Kashrut, can you verify then that islamic slaughtering techniques are not banned in those same countries? That would after all be a good indication that it may indeed be influenced by anti-Semitism."


* It seemed to me when I looked that there was more than a little overlap. I'd '''favor''' merging. But if we're going to say "no" to this, I would strongly suggest that we try to define the boundary between the two articles, rationalize the content of each appropriately, and add hatnotes describing the difference. ] (]) 23:23, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
:Well, I can't prove a negative. I am not aware of any movement in European nations to ban all Islamic slaughtering. The only European-wide movement I know of is aimed at Jewish slaughtering. There may well indeed be a few places where Islamic forms of slaughtering are also being banned. ]


* So no consensus (or no involvement?). I reiterate that it makes little sense to have two articles on the same subject. In regards to the "too large" argument, as noted in the start of this thread I sort of agree, but note that the entire kosher food article is not much longer than the laws of kashrut section on this page and most of the items there are discussed in that section already.
::And there we have the crux of the matter. There most certainly is a movement against ''all'' ritualistic slaughter. Whenever I hear of it, it is usually in relation to Islamic slaughter, rather than Jewish, since the latter is far less common. This is why I believe it is very important to determine whether or not there is any difference in how the two are treated. How about a list of what restrictions exist on ritual slaughter in the world?
::Otherwise we can go with ]'s proposal. ] (]) 02:19, 21 February 2019 (UTC)


* Oppose. This issue decided above on April 7, 2018 request. ] (]) 01:32, 27 March 2019 (UTC) One is a Jewish religion concept and the other an English word definition of food.
::I have edited the article further to nuance things further and make it less accusational. You are being far too broad in your choice of words and this gives the impression you're on some anti-European crusade. I've mostly followed the info from the excellent Swiss article. -]


== A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion ==
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2019-09-04T19:37:01.996052 | כשרויות.jpg -->
Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 19:37, 4 September 2019 (UTC)


== Restrictions on food produced by non-Jews? ==
The second kitniot link doesn't work. Where's it supposed to point? -]


Prefaced that I live in an (often conservative) Ashkenazi community, I’ve never heard of this my whole life while I knew about the other rules before I turned ~7. Maybe I and most of the internet just missed something, but these are way too obscure to be in the same bullet-list as the others. As such, I’m adding (minor) next to them and wouldn’t be surprised if someone else demoted them to (obscure) at some point ] (]) 22:43, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
----


== A section about the various organizations that certify foods to be kosher ==
NPOVified and slightly fixed up the most recent addition.


There are many organizations that claim some authority to certify foods as kosher. I think it would be useful for somebody to write at least a paragraph about the different organizations that do this. Are they recognized by different Jewish religious streams? Sometimes I see two kosher logos, but I do not remember ever seeing more than two. ] (]) 17:51, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
I removed the following sentence, because (1) I don't quite understand what it means or how it's relevant, but more importantly (2) the quote appears to have been damaged in transit (I assume the bad grammar is a misquote rather than in the original.


:This is an extremely complicated subject that I think if we tried to tackle would have to be its own page. Re: different streams, yes, but there are multiple dimensions. Expensive ritual items like shmurah Matzah are likely to have many symbols. Some symbols are recognized by some ''denominations'' but not others, others are identified with a particular ''ethnic tradition'', and a great many are strictly Orthodox but nonetheless understood to be untrustworthy. For example, ] is a ] symbol and not relied upon by Orthodox Jews. ] is a Sephardic hechser, which is not relied upon by Ashkenazim in areas of known disagreement. ] has always been run by strictly Orthodox Jews but is banned by major Orthodox rabbinic authorities. Some Hasidic sects, such as ], theoretically restrict adherents to their own in-house symbol. There's a lot of politics involved. The ] maintains a list of recommended symbols . ] (]) 20:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
:Further, in the Jewish mindset, "The body is the instrument of the soul's actions and the quality of these actions depends on the personality structure of man which, in turn, is influenced by his food, his body and soul during the life of man on earth are interdependent and interconnected." (Isadore Grunfeld, ''The Jewish Dietary Laws'', 1972, vol. 2, p. 213.)
::There is a linked article ] which contains a list of major organizations. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:50, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
:::Thanks for the tip about ]. From there, I found a link to ]. That article covered the material I thought was helpful. Thanks! ] (]) 22:58, 2 March 2023 (UTC)


==Wiki Education assignment: Jewish Life from Napoleon to Hitler==
]
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/Chapman_University/Jewish_Life_from_Napoleon_to_Hitler_(Spring_2023) | assignments = ] | start_date = 2023-01-29 | end_date = 2023-05-21 }}


<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 18:50, 25 April 2023 (UTC)</span>
----
It Would Be Great If someone whose knowledge was more than my little bit would add the criteria for wine to be kosher, including mevushal and its significance. ] 05:19, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)


== Snails ==
----


Snails as food (escargot) I assume would not be Kosher but I'm not clear on this. ] (]) 08:20, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
==External Links==
External links have been my pet peeve for the last little while, because people (often anonymously) insert them into articles to push a POV, then leave and other don't bother to check if they're relevant to the article body.<BR>
The links at the bottom are all totally irrelevant to the article. There's anough to say on ] to make it stand like an article - one of the reasons being the animal-rights movement taking on ritual slaughter as cruel. I suggest ''all'' the present links be removed, and will in fact do so in a few days if this comment goed unchallenged... ]&nbsp;|&nbsp;] 19:55, 20 May 2004 (UTC)


:Snails are not kosher. See ] for more. ] (]) 23:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
----

This would explain why a BLT with cheese is the most non-kosher food in the world. --] 07:41, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
== The tem mehadrin is missing ==

One looks it up, the DAB page sends here, and then - nada. ] (]) 10:16, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

== Medicines? ==

Are all medicines accepted as kosher, or are there some that are not acceptable? Is this worth including in the article? ] (]) 21:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

:All medicines are kosher due to the principle of Pikuach Nefesh ] (]) 19:51, 25 December 2024 (UTC)


== Bans on Kosher meat == == Kashrut by only ONE sect ==


This article is quite extensive, but, applies only to one sect of Judaism. While the Ashkenazi thought within the Rabbinic sect is the largest and most referred-to, this is not the do-all-end-all of rules and regulations, especially for the discussion of kosher eating. This article expresses only ONE interpretation of the eating commandments in the Torah. Minor differences are inclusive of the comparison between Ashkenazi and Sephardic rules and several other larger differences between Ashkenazi and Karaite and other lesser forms of Jewish observance including Samaritans. This is not a complete and comprehensive reference for Kashrut. ] (]) 04:42, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
I'm doing some reading on countries that ban Kosher meat. I've read that Hitler banned Kosher slaughter. Can this be mentioned in the article, or is it like throwing gasoline on a fire? If factual (and I have no reason to doubt it) I sort of feel it should be mentioned. But I don't want to run afoul of ]. ] 14:45, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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Animal rights topic categories

See the discussion on the topic of this article at the talk page of related article, Talk:Halal § Animal rights topic categories. Rasnaboy (talk) 15:25, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 7 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to any particular title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 02:11, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


Kashrut → Kosher – Per the Misplaced Pages article naming conventions at WP:COMMONNAME, an article's title should be the common English name for the topic. Rreagan007 (talk) 15:30, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

  • Comment: It certainly appears that the topic of this article is the dietary laws themselves, for which "kashrut" is the common English spelling of the term. ONR (talk) 16:40, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Comment: "Kosher laws" is a far more common English term for the dietary laws themselves than "Kashrut". I'm not sure that "Kashrut" is even considered to be a proper English word by the article, as the article italicizes the term throughout the article, signifying that it's a foreign word rather than an English word. Moving the article to Kosher laws is another possibility. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:26, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:TITLE/WP:NOUN. The proposed title does not reflect the topic of the article and is an adjective rather than a noun. According to the article, kashrut is a set of Jewish religious dietary laws, while the adjective that describes food that may be consumed is kosher. The article deals with the dietary laws and not merely foods that are kosher. In print sources (and Google web searches), the term "kosher laws" is far less common than "kashrut" according to this Google ngram. If there is really a problem with the current title, a descriptive like Jewish dietary laws would be a better choice. —  AjaxSmack  01:24, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Kosher foods is also about Jewish dietary laws. IMO, that's a better title. Merriam Webster spells this word as "kashruth" and defines it as "the state of being kosher." Nine Zulu queens (talk) 08:14, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Seventh-Day Adventists

Why is the postion of the Seventh-day Adventists on breakfast cereals relevant to the lead of the page on Jewish dietary laws?

If no one objects, I'll remove it.

Hydromania (talk) 09:34, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

rewrite of "Pareve foods" section

I think the pareve foods section needs a rewrite. Below is the the section as it stands now followed by my proposed changes.

Pareve foods

Some processes convert a meat or dairy product into a pareve (neither meat nor dairy) one. For example, rennet is sometimes made from stomach linings, yet is acceptable for making kosher cheese, but such cheeses might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese made from a vegetarian rennet. The same applies to kosher gelatin, an animal product, derived from kosher animal sources. Other gelatin-like products from non-animal sources such as agar agar and carrageenan are pareve by nature. Fish gelatin is derived from fish and is therefore (like all kosher fish products) pareve. Eggs are also considered pareve despite being an animal product. Bread is often prepared without dairy to be pareve.

Kashrut has procedures by which equipment can be cleaned of its previous non-kosher use, but that might be inadequate for those with allergies, vegetarians, or adherents to other religious statutes. For example, dairy manufacturing equipment can be cleaned well enough that the rabbis grant pareve status to products manufactured with it. Nevertheless, someone with a strong allergic sensitivity to dairy products might still react to the dairy residue, and that is why some products that are legitimately pareve carry "milk" warnings.

References

  1. The rennet must be kosher, either microbial or from special productions of animal rennet using kosher calf stomachs.Oukosher.org Archived 2012-03-06 at the Wayback Machine, Retrieved August 10, 2005.
  2. "Meat, Dairy and Pareve". OK Kosher Certification. Retrieved March 15, 2013.
  3. "Dairy Bread – Lo Basi Ela L’Orer"
  4. "Kosher Consumer Misconsumptions". Star-K. Retrieved March 15, 2013.

Pareve foods

Main article: Pareve

A Pareve (or Parve) food is one which is neither meat nor dairy. Fish fall into this category, as well as any food which is not animal-derived.

Eggs are also considered pareve despite being an animal product.

Some processes convert a meat or dairy derived product into a pareve one. For example, rennet is sometimes made from stomach linings, yet is acceptable for making kosher cheese. but such cheeses might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese made from a vegetarian rennet. Gelatin derived from kosher animal sources (which were ritually slaughtered) are also pareve. Such cheese and gelatin might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese or gelatin made from a vegetarian sources.

Other gelatin-like products from non-animal sources such as agar agar and carrageenan are pareve by nature. Fish gelatin, like all kosher fish products, is pareve.

Jewish law generally requires that bread be kept parve (i.e., not kneaded with meat or dairy products, or made on meat or dairy equipment).

Kashrut has procedures by which equipment can be cleaned of its previous non-kosher or meat/dairy use, but those may be inadequate for vegetarians, those with allergies, or adherents to other religious statutes. For example, dairy manufacturing equipment can be cleaned well enough that the rabbis grant pareve status to products manufactured with it but someone with a strong allergic sensitivity to dairy products might still react to the dairy residue. That is why some products that are legitimately pareve carry "milk" warnings.

Hydromania (talk) 00:28, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. "Meat, Dairy and Pareve". OK Kosher Certification. Retrieved March 15, 2013.
  2. The rennet must be kosher, either microbial or from special productions of animal rennet using kosher calf stomachs.Oukosher.org Archived 2012-03-06 at the Wayback Machine, Retrieved August 10, 2005.
  3. "Kosher Gelatin:How a Product from Beef Can be Used in Dairy Delicacies". OU Kosher. Retrieved February 7, 2019.
  4. "WITH THE SWEAT OF THOU BROW SHALL THOU EAT BREAD"
  5. "Kosher Consumer Misconsumptions". Star-K. Retrieved March 15, 2013.
@Hydromania: I'm basically fine with your proposal, which I think definitely improves the section. Using underline and strikeout, I made some edits:
  • "considered" (my style, I guess)
  • unacceptable to vegetarians—presumably applies to the gelatin issue, too, so I reordered a little, even though it separates meat-derived gelatin from vegetable-derived products. I added a paragraph break, but I don't feel strongly about that.
  • "generally": Single-serving breads that are known generally to be dairy, say, are allowed by most authorities. That is why English muffins with dairy hechshers are allowed.
Decide how you'd like to address my proposed changes, then feel free to put it in the article (without the underlines and strikeouts). StevenJ81 (talk) 16:44, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
@StevenJ81:
  • "considered" - I don't really like it. If Jewish law considers it pareve, then, for the purposes of this entry on Jewish dietary laws, it is parve. But I'll leave it in as the previous version had it too.
  • you definitely improved it. But I think the entire part about vegetarians should be taken out. The parve article goes into it. And obviously kosher animal derived gelatin is not vegetarian.
  • "generally" good catch
Hydromania (talk) 18:53, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
👍 Like Hydromania. --תנא קמא (talk) 22:37, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

The 1/60th Rule

Hi, I think that an extra section for the kashrut law of "Bateil BeShishim - One In Sixty parts" is needed. Here are some links that can be for help:

Thanks and cheers. --תנא קמא (talk) 23:29, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi there @תנא קמא: I personally believe the Misplaced Pages entry should focus on the general facets of the biblical commandment and the rabbinical additions, rather than the more specific laws of kosher. The 1/60 rule is just getting into details. Hydromania (talk) 06:46, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
@Hydromania:, you tagged the Kashrut#Genetically_modified_foods section for clarification, as it mentions this law, and needs elaboration. --תנא קמא (talk) 13:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
@תנא קמא: The genetically modified foods section needs a rewrite. I haven't found any sources which explain both sides of the question. That specific part should probably just say something like 'it's kosher because the gene is a miniscule part of the fish, and the fish still resembles a kosher fish' as the OU says here and drop the 1/60 rule entirely Hydromania (talk) 22:02, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Tobacco

I would suggest reading the sources before deleting cited content. The sources discuss tobacco that is certified Kosher for Passover in Israel. This is because tobacco is considered to contain ingredients forbidden during Passover. Maybe there is a better article for this, but I don't know which that is. Maybe I can revise the content and move it to the Passover section. Cannabis issue same, not only for eating, but debate about whether it is a legume. Please do not make things up. Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 17:15, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with kashruth of dietary, it has to do with chametz issues. I suggest you check your attitude. This article is on the dietary issues of kosher laws, not on chametz issues. Tobacco has no dietary issues and as such does not belong here. Sir Joseph 19:27, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Of course certification is an issue for this article, not only a theoretical dispute that certification has expanded beyond what should be covered by kashrut. For this you have presented no supporting sources. To add such commentary would be valuable, if there are supporting sources. However, deletion is not appropriate here, Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 19:37, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose merging the page Kosher foods into this one.

  • Kashrut applies to food. Kosher foods are foods which kashrut permits or prohibits. The subject is exactly the same.
  • As written now, they both cover the same ground.
  • I have not found any discussion on why there are two pages for the same subject.
  • As the older more stable page (former FA, GA) Kashrut should be the surviving article
  • The name can be discussed. Kashrut is more accurate, Kosher is more prevalent. However, note that this has been discussed many times previously here here here and hasn't been changed. Any new discussion should be after the merger.
  • One argument to make is that the Kashrut page is too long and clunky. I agree to an extent, and believe that after we merge any useful information from kosher foods into this one we should work on spinning of some of the sections into subpages.

Hydromania (talk) 06:17, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

  • I don't know. Kosher foods is more about the various foods themselves, while this article is more about about the institution of how to certify them. There is a certain overlap between the two, but that is not yet a reason to merge. Another good reason not to merge is that both article are not that small, and a merged article would be quite large, see Misplaced Pages:Article size. Debresser (talk) 09:58, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
Kashrut article is not only foods, it includes manufacturing equipment and details not usually discussed in food articles. Only question is overlap with Jewish cuisine, but this will be controversial and some sources exist to say it does not have to be kosher cuisine to be Jewish.Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 19:11, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
Debresser: But it isn't really. That article is Hechsher. This one has more on the foods than it does on certification or philosophy. Hydromania (talk) 02:22, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Yeah, this is a tough one. The Kosher foods article focuses more heavily on the foods themselves. It would make for a very long and unwieldy article. Slightly oppose. --FeldBum (talk) 14:12, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
  • It seemed to me when I looked that there was more than a little overlap. I'd favor merging. But if we're going to say "no" to this, I would strongly suggest that we try to define the boundary between the two articles, rationalize the content of each appropriately, and add hatnotes describing the difference. StevenJ81 (talk) 23:23, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
  • So no consensus (or no involvement?). I reiterate that it makes little sense to have two articles on the same subject. In regards to the "too large" argument, as noted in the start of this thread I sort of agree, but note that the entire kosher food article is not much longer than the laws of kashrut section on this page and most of the items there are discussed in that section already.
Otherwise we can go with StevenJ81's proposal. Hydromania (talk) 02:19, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:37, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Restrictions on food produced by non-Jews?

Prefaced that I live in an (often conservative) Ashkenazi community, I’ve never heard of this my whole life while I knew about the other rules before I turned ~7. Maybe I and most of the internet just missed something, but these are way too obscure to be in the same bullet-list as the others. As such, I’m adding (minor) next to them and wouldn’t be surprised if someone else demoted them to (obscure) at some point Makhnoboi19 (talk) 22:43, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

A section about the various organizations that certify foods to be kosher

There are many organizations that claim some authority to certify foods as kosher. I think it would be useful for somebody to write at least a paragraph about the different organizations that do this. Are they recognized by different Jewish religious streams? Sometimes I see two kosher logos, but I do not remember ever seeing more than two. Pete unseth (talk) 17:51, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

This is an extremely complicated subject that I think if we tried to tackle would have to be its own page. Re: different streams, yes, but there are multiple dimensions. Expensive ritual items like shmurah Matzah are likely to have many symbols. Some symbols are recognized by some denominations but not others, others are identified with a particular ethnic tradition, and a great many are strictly Orthodox but nonetheless understood to be untrustworthy. For example, Magen Tzedek is a Conservative Jewish symbol and not relied upon by Orthodox Jews. Badatz Beit Yosef is a Sephardic hechser, which is not relied upon by Ashkenazim in areas of known disagreement. Tablet-K has always been run by strictly Orthodox Jews but is banned by major Orthodox rabbinic authorities. Some Hasidic sects, such as Bobov, theoretically restrict adherents to their own in-house symbol. There's a lot of politics involved. The Chicago Rabbinical Council maintains a list of recommended symbols here. GordonGlottal (talk) 20:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
There is a linked article Hechsher which contains a list of major organizations. Sir Joseph 20:50, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for the tip about Hechsher. From there, I found a link to Kosher certification agency. That article covered the material I thought was helpful. Thanks! Pete unseth (talk) 22:58, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Jewish Life from Napoleon to Hitler

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 January 2023 and 21 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): LDantesinferno (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by LDantesinferno (talk) 18:50, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Snails

Snails as food (escargot) I assume would not be Kosher but I'm not clear on this. 24.51.192.49 (talk) 08:20, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Snails are not kosher. See Unclean animal for more. GordonGlottal (talk) 23:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The tem mehadrin is missing

One looks it up, the DAB page sends here, and then - nada. Arminden (talk) 10:16, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Medicines?

Are all medicines accepted as kosher, or are there some that are not acceptable? Is this worth including in the article? Pete unseth (talk) 21:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

All medicines are kosher due to the principle of Pikuach Nefesh Haplodiploid75 (talk) 19:51, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Kashrut by only ONE sect

This article is quite extensive, but, applies only to one sect of Judaism. While the Ashkenazi thought within the Rabbinic sect is the largest and most referred-to, this is not the do-all-end-all of rules and regulations, especially for the discussion of kosher eating. This article expresses only ONE interpretation of the eating commandments in the Torah. Minor differences are inclusive of the comparison between Ashkenazi and Sephardic rules and several other larger differences between Ashkenazi and Karaite and other lesser forms of Jewish observance including Samaritans. This is not a complete and comprehensive reference for Kashrut. Rjcb3 (talk) 04:42, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

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