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| === EDIT HISTORY BEFORE BEING TOPIC BANNED AND REVERTED === | |||
| {{User sandbox}} | |||
| *Note: Prem Rawat is being watched by 446 editors. All of whom have the opportunity to object to edits clearly proposed in the talk page and 17 editors has edited the article in the preceding month and none of them objected. | |||
| <!-- EDIT BELOW THIS LINE --> | |||
| * EDIT ONE | |||
| REASON - As per PR talk - '''TWO INDEPENDENT EDITORS MAKE THIS POINT -''' | |||
| ===1974–1980=== | |||
| Thought on Misplaced Pages: Weight and Misplaced Pages: Fringe | |||
| In May 1974, a judge gave Rawat his consent to marry without parental permission.<ref>"Guru, 16, marries secretary" AP Tues. 21 May 1974 ''Greeley Tribune''</ref> His marriage to Marolyn Johnson, a 24-year old follower from ], was celebrated at a non-denominational church in ].<ref>"The Guru's Wife Is Another Devotee", Robert P. Dalton, AP Staff Writer, ''Oakland Tribune''. 23 May 1974.</ref> Rawat's mother, Mata Ji, had not been invited.<ref>Downton (1979), p. 191.</ref> | |||
| :'''Content from sources that is only mentioned once or even twice in years possibly would not carry enough weight to be included in an article and especially a BLP.''' As well, such content may be fringe content and again consideration should be given as to how much weight if any such content should be given. Not judging one way or the other just points to consider. I've isolated these comments here so as to not intrude on the actual discussion. These are just some asides that may or may not be useful.(olive (talk) 16:01, 26 October 2012 (UTC)) | |||
| :You make an excellent point. WP:WEIGHT has some good advice on how to deal with this. As an aside, certain interactions I have had recently with an individual who wants the passage in question removed for reasons that violate Misplaced Pages policy in no way implies that I have any problem with the above, which is an argument to remove the passage in question removed for reasons that follow Misplaced Pages policy. (I really don't care what the content of the article is. I just want the rules to be followed.) '''In my opinion, (and of course my opinion carries no special weight) you are correct, and the current version gives undue weight to the fringe opinion that Rawat is a cult leader.''' Guy Macon (talk) 17:34, 26 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| I WAITED TWO WEEKS AND PROPOSED THE FOLLOWING - | |||
| Rawat's marriage to a non-Indian finally severed his relationship with his mother.<ref name="Hunt"/><ref name="Miller 1995, p. 474"/> She retained control of the Indian DLM and appointed her eldest son, Satpal, as its leader.<ref name="ReferenceB"/> Mata Ji said she was removing Rawat as Perfect Master because of his "unspiritual" lifestyle and lack of respect for her wishes.<ref name="Downton 1979, p. 192"/><ref>"Guru Tries to Take Control of Mission" in The Ruston Daily Leader, 9 April 1975:</ref><ref>"MOTHER OUSTS 'PLAYBOY' GURU" in Los Angeles Times. Wednesday 2 April 1975, PART II, p. 6A</ref> Rawat retained the support of the Western disciples. Most of the mahatmas either returned to India or were dismissed.<ref name="Downton"/> Rawat had become wealthy as a result of contributions from his Western devotees, and led the life of an American millionaire. He ran a household for his wife, his brother (Raja Ji) and his sister-in-law (Claudia), and financed travel for the close officials and mahatmas who accompanied him on his frequent trips around the globe to attend the Mission's festivals.<ref name="Downton"/><ref>Price (1979), pp. 279–96</ref> By early 1974 the number of full-time DLM staff had increased from six to over one thousand.<ref name="Messer, Jeanne 1976, pp. 52-72"/> | |||
| Undue weight | |||
| In November 1974, seeking more privacy for himself, his wife and his entourage following security concerns, Rawat moved to a {{convert|4|acre|m2|adj=on}} property in ].<ref name="MHomeBase">"Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, ''Los Angeles Times'', 27 Nov 1974; p. B2</ref><ref name="LAT1979" /> Purchased by the DLM for $400,000, the property served as the DLM's West Coast headquarters.<ref name="MHomeBase" /><ref name="LAT1979" /><ref name="LAT1989-09-03">]. "MALIBU Metamorphosis: Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach?" in '']''. 3 September 1989. </ref> Controversy around a helipad on the property<ref name="LAT1981-02-14">"1-Year Trial OKd for Sect's Helipad" in '']''. 22 May 1981, p. F6. </ref> was resolved by installing emergency water storage for the ] and by limiting the number of permitted flights.<ref name="LAT1985-07-07">Pasternak, Judy. "Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Use" in '']''. 7 July 1985, p. 1. </ref> | |||
| As suggested by several editors "In January 1979 the Los Angeles Times reported that Rawat was maintaining his Malibu following despite a rising mistrust of cults. Bob Mishler and Robert Hand, a former vice president of the movement, complained that money was increasingly diverted to Rawat's personal use and that the ideals of the group had become impossible to fulfill. The charges found little support and did not affect the progress of the Mission", comes under the category "Content from sources that is only mentioned once or even twice in years possibly would not carry enough weight to be included in an article and especially a BLP. As well, such content may be fringe content and again consideration should be given as to how much weight if any such content should be given". I propose removing it.Momento (talk) 05:17, 8 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| By 1976, most students viewed Rawat primarily as a spiritual teacher, guide and inspiration.<ref>Downton (1979), p. 199</ref> In January 1976 Rawat encouraged them to leave the ]s and discard Indian customs and terminology.<ref name="Downton 1979">Downton (1979)</ref> Rawat said that the organization had come between his devotees and himself.<ref>Björkqvist, K (1990): World-rejection, world-affirmation, and goal displacement: some aspects of change in three new religions movements of Hindu origin. In N. Holm (ed.), Encounter with India: studies in neohinduism (pp. 79-99) - Turku, Finland. Åbo Akademi University Press - "In 1976, Maharaj Ji declared that he felt that the organization had come between his devotees and himself, and he disposed of the headquarters altogether."</ref> He dismissed Bob Mishler, co-founder of DLM, as International President. According to one source, he "resented the advice given to him by his chief subordinate" and dismissed him "when a clash of wills occurred".<ref name="Price, Maeve 1979 Page 279-296"/> Rawat decentralized some decision making to local premie communities, while he maintained his status as the ultimate authority over spiritual and secular matters. The staff at the Denver headquarters were reduced from 250 to 80.<ref name="Downton 1979"/> He described the managerial mentality that had grown in the Mission as "only cosmetic and totally unnecessary. It's like trying to take a cow and put lipstick on it. You can do it, but it's unnecessary in practical terms".<ref>Downton (1979), p. 196</ref> | |||
| FOLLOWED BY - If there are no policy based arguments, I'll remove it in 24 hours.Momento (talk) 22:04, 8 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| His appearance on 20 December 1976 in ], wearing a traditional ] costume for the first time since 1975, signaled a resurgence of Indian influence and devotion. During 1977, many returned to ''ashram'' life, and there was a shift back from secular tendencies towards ritual and messianic beliefs.<ref name="Downton 1979"/><ref>Downton (1979), pp. 210–211</ref> In 1977 Rawat became a US citizen.<ref>"Guru Maharaj Ji becomes a citizen of the U.S." ''Rocky Mountain News'', Wednesday, 19 October 1977, Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.</ref> | |||
| FOLLOWED BY - "removed as per talk" Momento 03:11, 10 November 201 2" | |||
| In October 1978, the hillsides surrounding Rawat's Malibu estate were burned by a ].<ref name="LAT1979" /> His family and the DLM headquarters subsequently moved to ].<ref name=Galanter1999p22>Galanter (1999), p. 22</ref> The family, which grew to four children, returned to Malibu in 1984.<ref name=Galanter1999p22/> | |||
| NUMBER OF EDITORS INVOLVED - 17 editors has edited the article in the preceding month and none of them objected to my proposal. | |||
| In January 1979 the ''Los Angeles Times'' reported that Rawat was maintaining his Malibu following despite a rising mistrust of cults.<ref name="LAT1979">"Malibu Guru Maintains Following Despite Rising Mistrust of Cults" Mark Foster, ''Los Angeles Times'' 12 January 1979 p. 3</ref> Bob Mishler and Robert Hand, a former vice president of the movement, complained that money was increasingly diverted to Rawat's personal use,<ref name="Melton1986"/> warning that a situation like the recent ] incident could occur with the followers of Rawat.<ref name="Brown">Brown, Chip, ''Parents Versus Cult: Frustration, Kidnapping, Tears; Who Became Kidnappers to Rescue Daughter From Her Guru'', The Washington Post, 15 February 1982</ref> Mishler complained that the ideals of the group had become impossible to fulfill, but his charges found little support and did not affect the progress of the Mission.<ref name="Melton1986"/> | |||
| POS or NEG? - Two positive sentences and one negative. | |||
| ], London]] | |||
| In 1980, Rawat removed all the "religious" aspects of the movement and declared he now wanted "no movement whatsoever".<ref name="Björkqvist, K 1990 pp. 79-99">Björkqvist, K (1990): World-rejection, world-affirmation, and goal displacement: some aspects of change in three new religions movements of Hindu origin. In N. Holm (ed.), Encounter with India: studies in neohinduism (pp. 79-99) - Turku, Finland. Åbo Akademi University Press</ref> The Hindu references and religious parables that had been prominent in ] gave way to a focus on the meditation techniques. Once called "Perfect Master", Prem Rawat abandoned his "almost divine status as guru" <ref name="Hunt"/><ref name="Melton1986"/> but affirmed his status as a master. Scholars such as ] and ] describe the departure from divine connotations.<ref name="KranenborgNeo178">Kranenborg (2002), p. 178</ref><ref name="Chryssides">Chryssides (2001), pp. 210–211</ref> | |||
| ===1981–2000=== | |||
| *EDIT TWO | |||
| In 1983 the Divine Light Mission was renamed ] and Rawat closed the last western ''ashrams'', marking the end of his use of Indian methods for international objectives.<ref name="Miller 1995, p. 474"/> | |||
| According to a 1983 article, Rawat continued to "energetically serve his followers", flying to speaking engagements in major cities around the world almost continually. In two years he spoke at over 100 programs in 37 international cities, including New York, London, Paris, Kuala Lumpur, Rome, Delhi, Sydney, Tokyo, Caracas and Los Angeles.<ref name="Björkqvist, K 1990 pp. 79-99"/><ref>{{cite news|title=Whatever Happened to Guru Maharaj Ji?|work=Hinduism Today|publisher=Himalayan Academy|issn=08960801|date=October 1983|url=http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=280|archiveurl=http://www.webcitation.org/5roQYWw8F|archivedate=7 August 2010}}</ref> | |||
| REMOVED - "One witness said that Rawat "played the whole time he was there ... he played with squirt guns, flashed pictures of himself for all to see, and took movies of everybody ... Love flowed back and forth between him and his devotees". | |||
| The number of Rawat's students grew in the 1980s and 1990s as Rawat toured extensively,<ref name="Geaves2006a" /> speaking in over 40 countries, including ], ], the ], ] and ].<ref name="Melton1986"/> In 1990 there were said to be 1.2 million followers worldwide, with 50,000 in the United States.<ref name="Chryssides"/> 1999 saw the commencement of regular satellite broadcasts to North America and other countries.<ref></ref> | |||
| REASON - As per talk "Who ever this witness is (in bold), I don't believe they deserve so much space and should be removed". | |||
| Elan Vital states that the only effective way of reaching out to the over 80 countries where his message is now promoted is by leased private jet, which Rawat self-pilots, flying around a quarter million miles a year.<ref name="Geaves2006a" /> | |||
| POS or NEG? - All POS. | |||
| ===2001 - present=== | |||
| In 2001, Rawat founded The Prem Rawat Foundation (TPRF),<ref>"" at the </ref> a ] for the production and distribution of materials promoting his message, and also for funding worldwide humanitarian efforts. TPRF has provided food, water and medical help to war-torn and impoverished areas.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://charityreports.give.org/Public/Report.aspx?CharityID=3098|title=Charity report|publisher=BBB Wise Giving Alliance|accessdate=March 2007}}</ref> | |||
| *EDIT THREE | |||
| Between January 2004 and June 2005, Rawat delivered 117 addresses in Asia, Europe, and North America focusing on a universal message of peace and self-fulfillment. His message is currently distributed in eighty-eight countries in print and on video, and his program "Words of Peace" is broadcast on TV channels such as ''Canal Infinito'' in South America, ''Channel 31'' in Australia, and ''Dish Network'' in the USA.<ref>''Conversation with Prem Rawat'', (Retrieved January 2006)</ref><ref>"Words of Peace" by Maharaji receives TV Award in Brazil" .</ref> | |||
| ]]] | |||
| In 2007 during a two-month tour of India, ] and ], Rawat spoke at 36 events, addressing over 800,000 people, and by live satellite broadcasts reached an additional 2.25 million.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.tprf.org/Prem_Rawat_press_releases/Prem_Rawat_addreses_over_3_million_in_India_events.htm |title=Over 3 million people participate in events with Prem Rawat in India |publisher=The Prem Rawat Foundation |accessdate=2008-11-08}}</ref> | |||
| REASON - Putting travelling before learning to fly is logical. No material removed. | |||
| A biography of Rawat, ''Peace is Possible'', by ], was published in 2006 with a foreword by ], a former President of the ] and former ].<ref>Andrea Cagan: Peace is Possible, The Life and Message of Prem Rawat. Mighty River Press, ISBN 0-9788694-9-4</ref> In 2009, Rawat was made "Ambassador of Peace" for the ] of Italy. In 2010, he spoke at the "Words of Peace for Europe" conference in ], at the invitation of European Parliament Vice-President ].<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.agenziaaise.it/esteri/unione-europea/65024-.html|date=2 July 2010|title=WORDS OF PEACE FOR EUROPE: LA BASILICATA PROTAGONISTA NEL PROCESSO DI PACE|publisher=Agenzia Internazionale Stampa Estero}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.basilicatanet.eu/news/print.asp?Id=734979|title=Domani a Bruxelles la conferencia "Words of Peace for Europe|publisher=basilicatanet.eu|accessdate=2011-10-03}}</ref> In 2011, he again spoke in Brussels at the conference, "Peace and Prosperity. Founding Values of the European Union."<ref> Province of Potenza Newsletter ]</ref> | |||
| *EDITs FOUR to TEN | |||
| REASON - Try to get better balance with photos. No material removed. Photos put back. | |||
| *EDIT ELEVEN | |||
| REASON - Re-arranged material for better chronology and flow. No material removed. | |||
| *EDIT TWELVE and THIRTEEN | |||
| REASON - Replaced photos. No material removed. | |||
| *EDIT FOURTEEN | |||
| REMOVED - "Critics said that his lifestyle was supported by the donations of followers and that the movement appeared to exist only to support Rawat's "opulent existence". Supporters said there is no conflict between worldly and spiritual riches, and that Rawat did not advise anyone to "abandon the material world", but said it is our attachment to it that is wrong. Press reports listed expensive automobiles such as Rolls-Royces, Mercedes-Benz limousines and sports cars, some of them gifts. Maharaj Ji's luxuries are gifts from a Western culture whose fruits are watches and Cadillacs," a spokesman said. Some premies said that he did not want the gifts, but that people gave them out of their love for him. They saw Rawat's lifestyle as an example of a lila, or divine play, which held a mirror to the "money-crazed and contraption-collecting society" of the West. | |||
| RETAINED - Rawat's affluent lifestyle was a source of controversy with some media saying that Rawat "lived more like a king than a Messiah". Rawat said, "I have something far more precious to give them than money and material things – I give peace". | |||
| REASON - As per talk "This paragraph is far too long. We just need to say Rawat's affluent lifestyle was a source of controversy and the premies rebuttal for NPOV. We can do without the material in bold - the argument between premies and the media is repetitive and including a biased individual's unsubstantiated quote is undue weight etc - "Critics said etc". | |||
| NUMBER OF EDITORS INVOLVED - 17 editors has edited the article in the preceding month and none of them objected. | |||
| POS or NEG? - Removed three positive sentences and two negative (tit for tat) | |||
| *EDIT FIFTEEN | |||
| REMOVED - "self" from "self pilots" as redundant. | |||
| *EDIT SIXTEEN and SEVENTEEN | |||
| REASON: Not necessary to include future name when link will connect to it. | |||
| *CONCLUSION - MORE SUPERFLUOUS POSITIVE MATERIAL REMOVED THAN NEGATIVE | |||
| ANOTHER APPEAL | |||
| On Nov 15th, 2012 I was indefinitely Topic Ban from all Prem Rawat articles for “Persistent Battleground Behaviour” by The Blade of the Northern Lights. | |||
| TBOTNL gave no warning to me nor did he provide any diffs to support his claim I was engaging in “Persistent Battleground Behaviour”. | |||
| Fifteen months later when I appealed my ban at WP:AE he provided three diffs to justify continuing my ban with the “I'm not giving my own point of view on the truth or validity of any additions or removals”. | |||
| The first edit I made was the result of two other editors who came to the conclusion that “the current version gives undue weight to the fringe opinion that Rawat is a cult leader.”.. I waited two weeks for any objection to their opinion and then I proposed making the edit. When no one objected to the proposed edit I waited a further 24 hours and then made the edit. | |||
| The second edit I made was on the talk page in response to a proposal by another editor (“Good suggestion. I'm happy with that”). The edit proposed was to remove a superfluous martial the majority of which was a quote from Prem Rawat. | |||
| The third edit involved removing excess opinion, both positive and negative, not necessary to express the crux of the matter which was that “Rawat's affluent lifestyle was a source of controversy in the early 1970s” which I retained. | |||
| None of the edits I made, or the talk discussion that preceded them, show “Persistent Battleground Behavior," incivility or tendentious editing and the attached synopsis of the other edits made at the same time show that I was editing according to the best policies of Misplaced Pages. | |||
| My criteria for every edit was to improve the article. I am a writer by profession and arguably an expert on the subject of Prem Rawat. I have removed both positive and negative material that bloated the article without adding value. | |||
| At the time of the editing Prem Rawat was being watched by 446 editors and seventeen editors edited the article in the preceding month and none of them objected to my edits. | |||
Latest revision as of 08:48, 15 August 2014
EDIT HISTORY BEFORE BEING TOPIC BANNED AND REVERTED
- Note: Prem Rawat is being watched by 446 editors. All of whom have the opportunity to object to edits clearly proposed in the talk page and 17 editors has edited the article in the preceding month and none of them objected.
REASON - As per PR talk - TWO INDEPENDENT EDITORS MAKE THIS POINT -
Thought on Misplaced Pages: Weight and Misplaced Pages: Fringe
- Content from sources that is only mentioned once or even twice in years possibly would not carry enough weight to be included in an article and especially a BLP. As well, such content may be fringe content and again consideration should be given as to how much weight if any such content should be given. Not judging one way or the other just points to consider. I've isolated these comments here so as to not intrude on the actual discussion. These are just some asides that may or may not be useful.(olive (talk) 16:01, 26 October 2012 (UTC))
- You make an excellent point. WP:WEIGHT has some good advice on how to deal with this. As an aside, certain interactions I have had recently with an individual who wants the passage in question removed for reasons that violate Misplaced Pages policy in no way implies that I have any problem with the above, which is an argument to remove the passage in question removed for reasons that follow Misplaced Pages policy. (I really don't care what the content of the article is. I just want the rules to be followed.) In my opinion, (and of course my opinion carries no special weight) you are correct, and the current version gives undue weight to the fringe opinion that Rawat is a cult leader. Guy Macon (talk) 17:34, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
I WAITED TWO WEEKS AND PROPOSED THE FOLLOWING -
Undue weight
As suggested by several editors "In January 1979 the Los Angeles Times reported that Rawat was maintaining his Malibu following despite a rising mistrust of cults. Bob Mishler and Robert Hand, a former vice president of the movement, complained that money was increasingly diverted to Rawat's personal use and that the ideals of the group had become impossible to fulfill. The charges found little support and did not affect the progress of the Mission", comes under the category "Content from sources that is only mentioned once or even twice in years possibly would not carry enough weight to be included in an article and especially a BLP. As well, such content may be fringe content and again consideration should be given as to how much weight if any such content should be given". I propose removing it.Momento (talk) 05:17, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
FOLLOWED BY - If there are no policy based arguments, I'll remove it in 24 hours.Momento (talk) 22:04, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
FOLLOWED BY - "removed as per talk" Momento 03:11, 10 November 201 2"
NUMBER OF EDITORS INVOLVED - 17 editors has edited the article in the preceding month and none of them objected to my proposal.
POS or NEG? - Two positive sentences and one negative.
REMOVED - "One witness said that Rawat "played the whole time he was there ... he played with squirt guns, flashed pictures of himself for all to see, and took movies of everybody ... Love flowed back and forth between him and his devotees".
REASON - As per talk "Who ever this witness is (in bold), I don't believe they deserve so much space and should be removed".
POS or NEG? - All POS.
REASON - Putting travelling before learning to fly is logical. No material removed.
REASON - Try to get better balance with photos. No material removed. Photos put back.
REASON - Re-arranged material for better chronology and flow. No material removed.
REASON - Replaced photos. No material removed.
REMOVED - "Critics said that his lifestyle was supported by the donations of followers and that the movement appeared to exist only to support Rawat's "opulent existence". Supporters said there is no conflict between worldly and spiritual riches, and that Rawat did not advise anyone to "abandon the material world", but said it is our attachment to it that is wrong. Press reports listed expensive automobiles such as Rolls-Royces, Mercedes-Benz limousines and sports cars, some of them gifts. Maharaj Ji's luxuries are gifts from a Western culture whose fruits are watches and Cadillacs," a spokesman said. Some premies said that he did not want the gifts, but that people gave them out of their love for him. They saw Rawat's lifestyle as an example of a lila, or divine play, which held a mirror to the "money-crazed and contraption-collecting society" of the West.
RETAINED - Rawat's affluent lifestyle was a source of controversy with some media saying that Rawat "lived more like a king than a Messiah". Rawat said, "I have something far more precious to give them than money and material things – I give peace".
REASON - As per talk "This paragraph is far too long. We just need to say Rawat's affluent lifestyle was a source of controversy and the premies rebuttal for NPOV. We can do without the material in bold - the argument between premies and the media is repetitive and including a biased individual's unsubstantiated quote is undue weight etc - "Critics said etc".
NUMBER OF EDITORS INVOLVED - 17 editors has edited the article in the preceding month and none of them objected.
POS or NEG? - Removed three positive sentences and two negative (tit for tat)
REMOVED - "self" from "self pilots" as redundant.
REASON: Not necessary to include future name when link will connect to it.
- CONCLUSION - MORE SUPERFLUOUS POSITIVE MATERIAL REMOVED THAN NEGATIVE
ANOTHER APPEAL
On Nov 15th, 2012 I was indefinitely Topic Ban from all Prem Rawat articles for “Persistent Battleground Behaviour” by The Blade of the Northern Lights. TBOTNL gave no warning to me nor did he provide any diffs to support his claim I was engaging in “Persistent Battleground Behaviour”. Fifteen months later when I appealed my ban at WP:AE he provided three diffs to justify continuing my ban with the “I'm not giving my own point of view on the truth or validity of any additions or removals”. The first edit I made was the result of two other editors who came to the conclusion that “the current version gives undue weight to the fringe opinion that Rawat is a cult leader.”.. I waited two weeks for any objection to their opinion and then I proposed making the edit. When no one objected to the proposed edit I waited a further 24 hours and then made the edit. The second edit I made was on the talk page in response to a proposal by another editor (“Good suggestion. I'm happy with that”). The edit proposed was to remove a superfluous martial the majority of which was a quote from Prem Rawat. The third edit involved removing excess opinion, both positive and negative, not necessary to express the crux of the matter which was that “Rawat's affluent lifestyle was a source of controversy in the early 1970s” which I retained. None of the edits I made, or the talk discussion that preceded them, show “Persistent Battleground Behavior," incivility or tendentious editing and the attached synopsis of the other edits made at the same time show that I was editing according to the best policies of Misplaced Pages. My criteria for every edit was to improve the article. I am a writer by profession and arguably an expert on the subject of Prem Rawat. I have removed both positive and negative material that bloated the article without adding value. At the time of the editing Prem Rawat was being watched by 446 editors and seventeen editors edited the article in the preceding month and none of them objected to my edits.