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			== Wikihounding by Awshort ==
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			user Awshort has been selectively invoking rules on the article for ]. It has taken me some time to really see how it was happenening, but finally today wrote on the talk page with examples of how they have been selectively and hypocritically enforcing rules on me (a new user).
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			Additionally, as I mentioned in that post, at one point they accused me of asking another editor for help...which doesn't make any sense? It seems like they were trying to imply to me that I had done something wrong, but I read over some rules first to make sure I was allowed to ask for help. I'm still pretty sure I am! If not...let me know?
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			After my post today, Awshort started ]me.
	== Proposed indefinite topic ban for Yogesh Khandke ==
			Here are diffs where they follow me around to pages it doesn't appear they have had any interest in prior:
	: Topic-ban enacted: banned from all edits on the subjects of colonialism and Indian history. ] ] 07:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color: #edeaff; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
	:''The following discussion is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive top-->
	----
	{{User14|Yogesh Khandke}} figured in the departure of Blnguyen/YellowMonkey in late 2010. Since then, his persistent attempts to skew Misplaced Pages's coverage of South Asian history in favor of various fringe Hindu nationalist theories has repeatedly sapped the time and morale of knowledgeable and/or expert contributors. As seen in ( in a previous iteration), YK is adroit in promoting a ]—one that can hardly be said to enjoy more currency among reputable historians than does, say, ]. Time and again in YK's career, this problematic editing programme is backed with non-pertinent and non-specialist sources in intense bursts of repeat reverts and talk-page spamming of questionable sources. He backs off for a time before returning, . This sporadicity has perhaps allowed him to dodge the blocks and other injunctions that befall other disruptively tendentious or revisionist editors not savvy enough to strategically time or space their spurious content challenges.
			°
	Nevertheless, the damage is done: again and again, as exemplified most recently at ], experienced editors must tediously refute each of YK's formulaic challenges: fringe theories backed by marginal or non-specialist sources; ]-sympathetic and backed by marginal or non-specialist sources. This would perhaps be OK if the editor in question were newer or less familiar with core content policies, but the episodic recidivism of YK is a different matter: a topic ban for YK revolving around South Asian history, preferably indefinite but otherwise of duration not less than six months, renewable upon occurrence of further disruption, would be a solution that would save time and foster more policy-compliant content contribution on both sides. ] 11:12, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:Some additional points:
	:* I recommend that the closing admin interpret "a topic ban for YK revolving around South Asian history, preferably indefinite ..." as taking the form of the placed on {{User14|Zuggernaut}}: "topic banned from Indian history, broadly construed. He is not permitted to edit or discuss these topics anywhere on Misplaced Pages." Presumably, as with Zuggernaut, a mentoring admin would step forward to guide/police YK with respect to the topic ban.
	:* Below, editors suggested that the proposed editing restriction should have been stronger, for example stating that YK's source misrepresentations and undue referencing and tendentious editing not be merely decanted from one topic (South Asian history) to another (British literature). Some seemed to hint that an indefinite site ban is required: "It is time for Yogesh Khandke to go."; "... but, when it involves misrepresentation, an "us and them" attitude, alteration of sources, stuff like that, I think it is time to say thanks but goodbye to Khandke." In light of the further evidence of YK's persistent pattern of disruption (more detailed and disturbing than mine) presented below, short of a unequivocal promise to reform tendered by YK, I'd support a site ban, whether now or in future YK-related damage-control discussions.
	:* For now, the spirit of the proposed topic ban should ideally inform uninvolved admins dealing with YK-style disruption, whether the strict letter of this proposed ban cover the affected pages (say, on Pakistani or Indian history) or not (Dickens). If (which, given his on-and-off history, is likely), the consensus that emerges here should help enact stronger future restrictions earlier rather than later in YK's next disruptive cycle.
	:* Several editors with greater sourcing expertise than I or more experience dealing with YK have corrected/clarified/expanded the observations above. Johnuniq, Truthkeeper88, and others point to the harm YK has done to the ] articles by giving undue weight to sources or positions, driving away responsible editors, etc. Had I known, I'd have recommended a more wide-ranging editing restriction, perhaps by proposing enactment of of the Zuggernaut restrictions with respect to the Dickens articles as well as , allowing uninvolved admins to YK from talk pages/articles where he has been or is being disruptive.
	:] 05:56, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' - I have been watching this latest sequence and did on a couple of occasions try to explain to those who were getting drawn in by YK's fringe theories, but my experience of YK's methodology, which Saravask explains well, goes back for quite some while. Nothing is changing, nothing is being learned and the time-sink aspect is phenomenal. - ] (]) 11:24, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:* gives an idea of just how many times Yogesh Khandke's POV-pushing/undue weight theories etc have been referred to this noticeboard. There are plenty of other instances that did not make it thus far and he was, of course, involved in the politically-oriented protest at the India Wikiconference last year when he tried to obtain a legal resolution to an issue relating to WP's depiction of maps of India. He disappeared when that failed and has only recently returned to editing. - ] (]) 12:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::The sources never say that they are 'fringe' theories by 'cranks'. These are assertions from editors on Misplaced Pages. I am little puzzled how Sitush is silent on this facet, even if that goes against his vote.
	:::Also Sitush and other editors are well experienced to let know if content disputes can be taken to ANI or not. My understanding says that content dispute has to be dealt with first before concluding that these are 'fringe theories'. Considering your expertise on sources, could you present sources please that state clearly that views from the side of YK are <u>exclusively</u> 'fringe theories'. Unless it is proven that views from the side of YK are <u>exclusively</u> 'fringe theories', such assumptions can be made against views presented by YK.
	:::I don't think that much of what ] states such as "in favor of various fringe Hindu nationalist theories" etc holds unless any content disputes, if any, are resolved.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 06:35, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support'''. Saravask describes it well. I've seen editors spending huge amounts of time trying to explain to Yogesh Khandke how we use reliable sources, how we evaluate sources, how we can't add improperly sourced fringe ideas, can't add nationalist POV, etc, but it's just not getting through and a lot of time is being wasted repeatedly going over the same kinds of things. -- ] (]) 11:36, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::I am sorry to say that there are no sources presented by the involved admin himself that state the sources presented by YK are exclusively fringe theories. Per me, this is in contradiction to his statement above about his own idea of reliable sources and loses much weight especially in absence of any discussion as such on 'fringe throries' which could not be discussed on this noticeboard.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 06:39, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::You appear to be confusing the original content disputes and this discussion of YK's behaviour. Saravask has provided links showing evidence of YK's behaviour, and the sources/fringe/POV issues are covered at those links. In order to evaluate YK's behaviour and Saravask's recommendation, I do not need to restart the content arguments here and now or provide any content sources of my own (as the sources used were presented and discussed at the time), I simply need to evaluate the evidence of YK's behaviour in those content discussions. (And by the way, I really don't think your badgering everyone who supports this recommendation is doing you any favours, you know). -- ] (]) 10:31, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::*Just to clarify as per Johnuniq's request below, I am supporting an indefinite topic ban on editing in any topic areas related to South Asian history, in any Misplaced Pages space. I note other editors' opinions that there is a wider problem, but I'm not sufficiently familiar with any other areas of contention to offer my judgment on that, so I have to remain neutral on any proposals for wider sanctions. -- ] (]) 11:38, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' - My understanding here is that the views per YogeshKhandke are not 'Hindu nationalist theories' or 'fringe theories backed by marginal or non-specialist sources; ]-sympathetic' etc. I can say this by words present in the discussion itself such as 'contemporary scholarly debates', 'some Indian scholars', 'Some historians and Indian nationalists', 'The Aryan migration theory has been challenged recently by several archaeologists', etc. Words like scholarly debates, Indian scholars, Some historians, archaeologists etc. can hardly be described as 'fringe' groups etc - I think all the participants here in this debate need to understand this well. In any case, this is about history long ago which no one can directly prove much at all directly with certainty; much less if there is indeed a debate on such topic ongoing - more so hotly debated topics such as this. Also, western sources per my understanding do not represent exhaustive views, and quoting someone of higher repute is considered sufficient for substance, without actually going into details of all sides. For me therefore this does not merit such action, especially when sources can have diverse views and are not bound to present all views (- this needs to be better discussed per me). As far as other edits are concerned, undoing an edit is no big deal especially compared to edits put in especially with sources mentioned. I would also suggest people here, learned and experienced too, to avoid name calling on personal perceptions. An example would be 'crank' which is per individual editor's (here Fowler) choice of words to describe what he calls nationalist historians/archeologists. While being experienced and reputed on Misplaced Pages, this wouldn't affect the seniormost editors but it would definitely affect any not-so-senior ones in case views from one side is made to look worthless, leading to bans etc. If senior editors do it, others will learn to repeat the same behavior. I am reminded of one instance when I was involved in an ugly exchange with some senior editor who suggested something like I have sympathy for 'saffron terror' or 'saffron terrorism' or whatever, while reopening a closed vote in my absence; and got away without even a warning and that lead to a ban on me.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 12:07, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:*Where were you banned or even blocked? I don't see anything in your . Would you mind supplying a diff? ] (]) 15:44, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::*<small>JanetteDoe, Thisthat2011 was topic banned per ]. It has expired now. - ] (]) 15:55, 28 March 2012 (UTC) </small>
	:::Thank you Sitush, I didn't see that. ] (]) 16:02, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::I was talking about this topic ban ], the one mentioned by Sitush is incorrect. It is where I was accused one the lines of saffron terror as a reason reopening a vote which I think is not a correct way to reopen a closed vote. No one corrected either the editor not the reopening of voting.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 18:26, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::The topic ban link to which you refer appears to be the same ban to which I referred. Am I mistaken? The fact that you more or less sat out that ban and then returned to similar topic areas and, in a fairly short space of time, end up here ... well, it does not look great. I would not have raised the issue if you had not volunteered it. My suggestion would be that in future you do not refer back to that topic ban: it had consensus and it is over and done with. - ] (]) 23:15, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::Please check again, these are two messages with same header for some reason! Also, my ban is over. Per instructions of the person who banned me, I am discussing this on talk pages, I have not indulged in any edit war which you may imply. I have presented my views on talk:India page too. If you have anything against it, please reply there because I have neither edited anything on that page currently, nor edited even if sources requested by me are not presented, even here.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 06:43, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::I have made my position clear here. I will not make any further comments other than saying that I think this discussion has turned rather fragmented, with little smaller discussions on sourcing when it is not being discussed at reliable sources board even for dispute, and more. I could have said a lot more with sources on various topics on each topic but but I think that won't be possible here with an open mind for all sides so I won't regardless as also that this looks too confusing to me.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 19:43, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			°
	*'''Oppose''' - I dont see anything wrong being done by Yogesh, first you may argue that he had edited the article before discussing but that action alone would not merit a ban. He did not push aside the sources presented by other editors all he displayed was that there are other theories so the sentence needs to be changed. Editors like fowler are considering few historians a cranck case and thus not considering those historians work, now this is something that can be debated. Coming to the point of Yoges pushing few Indian nationalist theory; Yogesh did provide few other sources and none of them were Indians, if he is wrong you can discard the sources but not initiate a discussion to ban him.--] (]) 12:26, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::The discussion is going no where and its getting murkier with every reply from either side. Thanks --] (]) 20:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			°
	*'''Support''' Its high time he is topic banned. His POV pushing is wasting everyone's time. He knows perfectly well what can be added here and what cannot. This is not the first time he is doing it. He knows well that the POV he pushes cannot get consensus through discussions, so his method is to first add unilaterally, then edit war without breaking 3RR. When thwarted he will try to argue it in the talk page. He usually doesnt get his way and comes back a few months later repeating the same point or similar points. He is a colossal drain on the community's time and resources.--] (]) 12:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
			Now, I will of course acknowledge that on the third example, I did make a mistake. I thought I had only removed the text of the sentence, but looks as though I accidentally deleted part of the template too. I am unsure how that happened, so I will try to figure that out.
	*''''Yogesh Khandke replies''':(1)Some of those voting here '''Soda''', '''Sitush''', and '''admin Zebeedee''', a long history of conflict with me regarding content, Sitush has been hounding me for many months but I have ignored him, not to create conflict. (2)ANI isn't the forum to bring content disputes so I will not justify my edits unless asked to do so. (3)'''Regarding gaming the system:''' I don't have computer access at work, so my editing is subject to the time I have leisure, that cannot be held against me. (3)Since it is year-end, (financial year), I have limited time, so that should be considered, I mean I will not be able to watch this page, I could know about this discussion only because I received an email alert because of the message left on my talk page. (4)This ANI is used as a tool in content disputes, which is unfair. ] (]) 13:26, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:*'''Holocaust denial''': '''Saravask''' writes: "YK is adroit in promoting a non-consensus position—one that can hardly be said to enjoy more currency among reputable historians than does, say, Holocaust denial.", which is nothing but a lie, all I wanted in the article was the mention that the Aryan Invasion/Migration theory is disputed for which I have presented evidence, I repeat my position which is that the India article which mentions the Aryan Migration theory should '''also''' mention that the theory is disputed by academics - historians, archaeologists, experts on genetics, cultural and language scholars, I am not disputing the mention of Aryan Migration in the article, my position is that this theory is diputed by numerous NON-FRINGE, RELIABLE SOURCES, for which I have presented evidence which ] and so the India article should take cognizance of the dispute as it is NOTABLE. (sorry about bringing up the content dispute but the fatuous reference to '''Holocaust denial''' needed to be scotched.) ] (]) 14:28, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::Regarding '''Fowler''' I should add his name in the list of content disputers and one who has been frequently abusive and uncivil, however since I don't believe in formal action against fellow editors I dropped the issue after he tendered an unconditional apology - twice. ] (]) 14:28, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::The language that Fowler uses: "Hindu nationalist fringe "scholars" ", "Indian cranks" in the latest discussion., when '''administrator Regentspark''' was requested to reign in the abusive Fowler (for an abuse a short while before the edit presented by the diff), admin Regentspark excused himself as an involved editor, here he has no qualms in rushing to support a topic ban, he was an opposite party made by me in the historic YellowMonkey case and was admonished for batting for '''YellowMonkey'''. ] (]) 15:16, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::Now that Mr. Khandke is cornered he has suddenly turned saintly and is accusing me of being abusive. He conveniently forgets his own transgressions. Long before I entered this latest fray, when ] asked for , Mr. Khandke, unsolicited, offered . Well, why don't you translate it for us now, Mr. Khandke? I am requesting. ]] 16:17, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::PS Perhaps someone else who knows Marathi could translate it? ]] 16:23, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::I don't know Marathi, but found the proverb . ] (]) 16:38, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::Hmm. Not sure what to make of it, but YK has a history of using vernacular expressions (which I don't understand) in exchanges with me. See, for example, ]'s post at the bottom of . ]] 17:01, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::Well Fowler even before you entered the discussion YK had suggested that you would ardently oppose the inclusion of the other theory(that is what the proverb mean but indirectly) which proved to be right. Yes there are incidents were your language can be very objectionable for example ] where you say that it is the last time that you would consider ppl bringing other sources, I guess if I had pursued it may be there would have a been a discussion about banning me as well, calling historians whom you don't consider worthy as crank case is also objectionable anyhow the discussion here is not about Fowler's language but about YK. I feel that this whole discussion is biased against YK--] (]) 17:06, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::It is more likely to be the case that the comments here reflect an emerging consensus, but time will tell. However, even when not indulging fringe theorists etc, Yogesh Khandke has to be watched carefully. For example, compare with its ]. I am still trying to fix the gross slant that he put on the thing, using for now just the sources that he has identified. It is the usual subtle "all the fault of the Brits" stuff in which he seems to specialise. - ] (]) 18:04, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::: It seems that everyone is being vindictive of YK and everything that was edited by him is being dug out, this discussion was started after he had given some evidences of sources on the India talk page. Few admins/editors have declared that nothing would change as long as they are the administrators and I feel the point of banning YK has come up because he annoys few admins POV(This is what I think after seeing the talk page of India and few other AN/I involving YK, I also know that this would not matter a lot) --] (]) 18:24, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
			Either way, Awshort's edit summary was not the language I hope experienced editors would use with newer editors like myself. I have mentioned multiple times in conversations that user Awshort is part of that I am a newer user, so they likely know that.
	::::::::::From ] "even when not indulging fringe theorists etc, Yogesh Khandke has to be watched carefully", does this mean that opinion of User:Sitush is more likely that the editor YK is not indulging fringe theorists in this case? just for clarity. In that case, the entire discussion may be seen in another light - perhaps a content dispute, and not what this looks like.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 19:59, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
			____
	:::::::::::You ask for clarity. If I could understand the rest of your message then perhaps I could provide it. Can anyone assist? Perhaps I am a bit more than my usual dumb self today. - ] (]) 23:15, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::::::My concern is that YK has failed to observe ] with me more than has any other editor I have encountered in my six years on Misplaced Pages. His command of English is not that poor that the vernacular (Marathi) is his only option, that he can't provide a translation, when he knows perfectly well that I do not understand a word of the language. How come he is not using Marathi (with offhanded remarks about translation) in the frenetic edits he is making on the Charles Dickens page? How come there are no "frog in the well," or "wrestling with a pig" expressions there? ]] 00:04, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	{{od}}'''Further from Yogesh Khandke''':'''(1)''' '''"On the Ganga move"''': www.fastcompany.com quotes ] Misplaced Pages's CEO {{quotation|''She likes to tell the story of the Ganges/Ganga argument playing out now on English Misplaced Pages. In India, the official name for the country's second-largest river is the Ganga. The British have long called it the Ganges, a term that bears the stench of colonization for many Indians. Since 2007, there has been a spirited back-and-forth between editors about whether a search for the river should redirect to Ganga or Ganges. "There are two Indian guys arguing one side, and then there's a bunch of casual editors from the United States and Europe arguing the other," says Gardner. "And it's interesting because there's this tiny number of Indians who care a lot and are correct and have all kinds of citations and evidence to support their view, and then there's this group who just are rebuffing them because the numbers are on their side."}} '''(2)''' The Charles Dickens' article is refered here - the result of my edits on that page was that ], whose major contributor has been ], so much for non-collaborative editing accusation made by ], considering the sensitivity of the subject. One of my recent edit's has been called {{quotation|It's an excellent and worthy addition to the article. Thanks for keeping us a bit less Anglo-centric.}} '''(3)''' Those who are after me with knives (metaphorically used) have company at ] where I am called a "Dravidian troll", for bringing the numerous non-fringe, scholarly, notable, sources mentioning Dickens' racism to the table. '''(4)''' '''Closing admin''' Please look at this carefully (a typical example of the flimsy and false accusations): In his opening statement ] calls my '''Hindutva-sympathetic''', (see the very racist term used Hindutva - Hinduness, do we use terms like Christian-ness sympathetic or Wicca-ness sympathetic on Misplaced Pages?). What is my edit?: I removed the internal link that led '''lower-caste communities''' to '''Shudra'''; I explained in my summary: ''Shudra is not a community it is a Varna'', the bloke cannot distinguish between a community and a '''Varna'''. (The other change was deleting the ] '''most''' and quoting the source as per wikipedia policy - state opinion like a fact) '''(5)''' Regarding '''Child marriages''' both '''child''' and '''marriage''' are wrong in the quote –as '''(a)''' Is 18 the threshold for defining the status as ]? '''(b)''' I had given many sources that explained that '''marriage''' doesn't mean that the relationship is consummated, there is another ceremony called as ], which follows "marriage", "marriage" is more like a ]. '''(c)''' I had mentioned the ], that allows doctors to advice and supply contraception to 12 year olds, in the ], and wondered whether "Child marriage" was a notable mention in what admin RegentsPark lately called a "summary article". (In my opinion the skewed male:female ratio is more alarming and notable.) '''(5)''' '''@ALL''': ] is trying to connect alleged real world actions with Misplaced Pages editing, is that allowed on Misplaced Pages? Is my honesty in using my real name in editing here, and in other contributions on the Internet, to be held against me? What action could be taken against an editor who levels such charges? I use my real name because it acts as an implicit censor, I can only write what I can associate with as my own work, I don't spew vitriol hiding behind an assumed name. I like to "play with my cards on the table". '''6)''' I am happy ] blocking action has been mentioned here, that was a ] type of decision in which I wasn't even allowed to put my point across, I wasn't editing while it was enforced, I wrote to EyeSerene, but he went for a long vacation and when he returned I just didn't have the time and energy to pursue the matter, about ] he in course of a discussion extrapolated his experience with Asians he encounters as a teacher, to all Asians, making comments to the effect "Indians don't have a culture of questioning scholarship and implicitly follow persons in authority". '''(also see post script)''' The "cabal" he "modestly" confesses (NPOV and RS warriors), is a load of nonsense, the persons mentioned by him, have been demonstrated to, that they simply lack competence, they have been called "google scholars", I don't say that you need to be a "rocket scientist", but you need to know a little about the subject, so as not to confuse "varna" for "community". I must add that their incompetence is not just related to the subject that they write on, but surprise of surprises for those like '''administrator''' '''Zeebeedee''' and '''Qwxryian?''' also extend to Misplaced Pages policies. (7) Similarly '''Johnuniq''', '''Jaga''' and '''Seb 86556''', were on the winning side of an article move debate, which won because at least in that instance ] failed. '''@John''': Kindly spare us the ] on this page, please find RELIABLE, NON-FRINGE, NOTABLE sources and make the necessary changes to the page, instead of indulging in disruption. '''(8)''' I will explain my editing pattern - I am a self-employed person, I don't have fixed hours or days, I edit whenever I have time, I have a school going daughter who needs my help with her studies, there are other social responsibilities in my community, where we have lived for about 60 years, I volunteer for a Luxembourgian NGO, helping them in their campaign; a '']'' to enable the ] in Europe to be able to have the same rights that other humans living there have. '''(9)''' I could reply to more insinuations but I request the '''closing admin''' to hear my side in any other matter before closing (please a note on my talk page I get email alerts), and also see the 30 odd articles I have created, to ascertain for himself/herself whether they fail NPOV or are not supported by RS, or contain UNDUE or are FRINGE, I have been verbose enough, my prose has been called obscure before. I must hang up. ('''Post script''': see point no '''(6)''' above) Considering here, the repeated harping about "experienced editors/experts..." to me expectation of "implicit subordination” seems to be the culture of some Wikipedians. I have been called "aggressive"; if you want a submissive, fawning Indian, you are at the wrong door. If you want me here, be prepared to accept me as an equal. I have clear understanding that editing Misplaced Pages is a privilege and not a right, and I am careful in not abusing it. Au revoir!] (]) 19:21, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
	:'''Additional statement from Yogesh Khandke''' I am back as this has taken longer than I expected. ] has called me deceitful in this discussion, which is a strong allegation. If I would write ''Indlu yako injani'', would the reader say '''don’t talk Zulu with me'''? I doubt very much, unless he has a familiarity with the language, he would say '''stop that gibberish''', we have ] saying on this page ''Mr. Khandke, unsolicited, offered a (edit summary reads ''please translate'') which he offhandedly asked AshLin to translate if requested Well, why don't you translate it for us now, Mr. Khandke? I am requesting.'' '''(1)''' I request the closing admin to muse over how '''(a)''' ] knew what I said was in ], '''(b)''' how ] had enough familiarity with the language to know that I had used a proverb and wasn’t say swearing at him in my native language. '''(c)''' With answers to '''(a)''' and '''(b)''' at hand I request the closing admin to think over why ] asks me to translate the non-English statement for him. (d) Assuming there is a good reason for ] to have written what he did, I request the closing admin to understand that the statement was for ] an editor whom I have met at a Misplaced Pages programme, and who I know is familiar with the language in which the statement is made. Please note that: I wasn’t talking to ], I was talking to ]. '''(2)''' I '''have''' used non-English words when ] has been around, one must not forget that these were used in the context of editing in the Indian content environment (and not while editing say ]), where editing is done in Indian English, so that words like bandh, dharna, gherao, loot, jungle, lakh, crore etc potentially could be used. Some of these words may be a part of UK or US English, others may not. Also, the only other non-English term (if my memory serves me right, apart from the German quotation I gave on 2012-03-31) has been kupamanduka, a ] philosophical term, one that ], the world’s largest circulating English newspaper has used too. Another thing that puzzles me is the very old-fashioned word ], that he used, one more popular with the British when referring to native languages in colonial India. How does he know that Marathi is my ''vernacular'', if it is the ''vernacular'' which in his opinion is the lingua franca? '''(3)''' ] continues to create in his words "''drama''", he writes about how Elst and Frawley are anti-Muslim and belong to the camp that thinks that Aryan Migration/Invasion isn't the final word in ancient Indian history. Isn't that a classic ] argument? ] argument is also classic strawman as I haven't quoted Elst and Frawley, those I have quoted are here viz. ] (who has been quoted by a rediff.com news-story), ] (who acknowledges the disputes but who considers that Aryans arrived as a minority - not ]), ], ], ] (who are editors of "The Indian-Aryan controversy..."), ] and Diane A. Lichtenstein whose article is included by Bryant et al, who quote ], Mikel Burley, Charles Michael Byrd, I stopped looking after that. There is also the Times of India article which quotes a study co-conducted by ], ], ], and I'm sorry there is an "Indian crank" here Dr. Lalji Singh of the ]. Their study concludes that " the hitherto believed "fact" that Aryans and Dravidians signify the ancestry of north and south Indians might after all, be a myth." and " there was no scientific proof of whether Indians went to Europe first or the other way round." There is too much mention of ] by me, let us not forget ] the bloke who brought this AN/I about has called these sources "marginal or non-specialist sources", and who accuses me of ], is it common for him an admin, to use such pointed language? '''Am I going to be hanged (used metaphorically) for using such sources.''' '''(4)''' Assuming for the moment that everyone related to the disputing camp (or sources that acknowledge the notability of the dispute by mentioning) such as Leach, Oppenheimer, Flood, Harvard, MIT, Broad, and the "Indian crank" Dr. Lalji Singh and his Centre) etc. '''are anti-Muslim''', does Misplaced Pages censor NOTABLE, RELIABLE, VERIFIABLE, non-FRINGE, and non-UNDUE inclusions just because they are allegedly '''anti-"some"ism''' '''(5)''' '''Non-notability of child marriage''': previous discussion, also see ] insulting Hindu god Hanuman '''{6)''' I have been called ], can an editor who has others who agree to his edits such as ], ], ] ] (the latest in the long line of editors who resort to socking when stonewalled, and then get banned, to the glee of those like ], who calls them trolls-peddlers of garbage, who disappear or get banned.) be called tendentious, just because I haven't disappeared or got banned (so far anyways) like a good garbage pushing troll should.? ] (]) 21:30, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' an indefinite topic ban for one of the most bizarrely tendentious editors I have encountered in my six years on Misplaced Pages. ] has eloquently and precisely summarized what many of us have felt about YK's edits (most of which are on talk pages) ever since he first arrived on Misplaced Pages. People have cut him more slack than any definition of slack allows. It is time to end this; otherwise, productive editors will feel disheartened and be rendered unproductive. ]] 13:32, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support'''. Tendentious doesn't begin to describe this user, from the looks of things. —] (] • ]) 13:39, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::I think User:Fowler&amp;fowler needs to rethink his stance on various issues he considers as fringe. His views are consistent that many theories are projected by 'by Indian jingoists', 'cranks', etc. Examples: ], ]. He is not ready to consider that there are debates on it ongoing even though sources mention so. About this comment from "The minority is too small and, in many cases, unrecognized as scholarly, to gain mention in the summary history section of a Misplaced Pages FA. None of the people you have quoted including Edwin Bryant or Laurie Patton are historians. As scholars of India none are even remotely in the same league as Colin P. Masica, Barbara D. Metcalf, Thomas R. Metcalf, Romila Thapar, Michael Witzel, Burton Stein], Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermund, Patrick Olivelle or Stanley Wolpert, all of whom have lent their support to the notion Aryan migration." I am not sure if this is the place to reply to this comment as discussion is also going on talk:India page in parallel. The sources themselves mention 'scholarly debates' etc.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 07:04, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			I'll end by saying that this user's behavior is making me reconsider whether I want to devote any time to improving wikipedia. Truly. I've never made a report like this before, anywhere in my life, just to give you a sense of how frustrating and upsetting its been.
	*'''Support'''. Tendentious in the extreme and here only to push a fringe POV which he does aggressively and relentlessly. --] <small>(])</small> 14:45, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	*:::The alteration of quotes, misrepresenting citations by cherry picking comments, misidentifying sources, reframing the debate as something it is not, etc. demonstrated by Fowler are classic examples of tendentious pov pushing behavior. --] <small>(])</small> 14:08, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::There is hardly any discussion to support the assertion that the views presented by editor YK are 'fringe theories', etc. The discussion is still going on on talk:India page. If the user ] finds sources that say the theories are from 'cranks' & 'Hindu nationalists', please mention sources here or on talk:India. Such assertions from experienced users without sources, without going to reliable sources noticeboard, without concluding discussion on talk:India are hardly considered appropriate on a vote according to me.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 07:31, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''', as per all the reasoning above. Given Yogesh's lack of concern and non-constructive edits to the respective articles, he deserves a Topic ban. ] ] 15:35, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::I am concerned about this user just adding one-sided comment here without being involved at all. Examples of his talk page are: ], ]. I would therefore have comments from this user ignored.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 18:38, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::agreed the whole discussion is being conducted like "my way or the highway " as mentioned above by me few editors are hell bent to ban YK --] (]) 19:14, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Yep, attack the editors taking part in the discussion - that's sure to get people on your side ;-) -- ] (]) 19:23, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::So let me get this right, people who haven't been involved with the dispute can't add their opinions; while those who have been involved with their dispute but are in support of a topic ban are "hell bent" on getting their way. Riiiight. If anything I think its the defence that is going overboard... —] (] • ]) 19:29, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::: 1st ] if you think you are being funny you are not 2nd. I did not say that people who are not involved should not add their opinion all I meant was "they should not form an opinion just on the basis of what it is being discussed here but rather check out the matter properly" (apologies if I was not clear) --] (]) 19:35, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::This part, started from the user User:Abhijay nowhere involved in this and apparently not too well versed with Misplaced Pages, is going nowhere. Look just two topics above this topic ]<s>, which perhaps has led to the other user ] here</s>. As an admin ] who is on one side of discussion here could have avoided passing comments on someone on the other side like this, when it is clear which side which editor belongs to.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 19:43, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::My comment here had nothing to do with Abhijay so you'd do well not to assume. I've watched this from afar for a long time, having previously had pleasant interactions with Sitush and Boing. Wait, I suppose in your eyes that makes me involved. —] (] • ]) 19:55, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::::I was talking about User:Abhijay, see where this is going? Editors on one side writing about editors on the other side and then more!!<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 20:04, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::::No, I don't. You're not making coherent sense. You suggested that I was "led here" because Abhijay posted about me to the board. I'm saying my taking part in this discussion has nothing to do with that. —] (] • ]) 20:07, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::::::Ok, I stand corrected then. I suggested that ''perhaps'' you were checking on his edits and then saw this discussion and then added your opinion. In any case, it does not affect your view. Though still I am not sure how much weight is carried by the opinion of User:Abhijay. Perhaps your could clarify about it, even if his comment does not support your view.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 20:28, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::Guys c'mon. Abhijay is a good faith, but new, editor. He has obviously not long found this board and has tried to comment and contribute. Any competent closing administrator will be able to see that train of events and weight his contribution accordingly. Piling on each other, based on his comment, is not going ot help either him - or you. In fact it's probably pretty off putting all round. Lets chalk this up and move on. --''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 22:10, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' as I have seen the POV pushing and use of UNDUE sources over an extended period—it will never end voluntarily. However, I am concerned that a topic ban from South Asian history would leave YK more free time to cherry pick negative commentary to inflate stuff like ]—the central problem is not so much South Asian history as a misunderstanding of what is DUE. When Dickens died (1870), the world was an extraordinarily different place, and an article highlighting alleged racism and anti-Semitism of Dickens completely misses the point, and should not be tolerated at a neutral encyclopedia. ] (]) 02:45, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	*:The editor himself says that "When Dickens died (1870), the world was an extraordinarily different place", but does mention the topic here, without commenting on whether the editor disputes any sources and how the sources 'inflate' stuff etc.. The topic in that era, 'inflate stuff', etc. do not matter in any case; and so would be the editor's perception of POV based on ] article.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 07:12, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	*::The central problem is that for any major topic like ] or ] there will be literally thousands of sources that could be argued to satisfy ] (and similar sources might be adequate for unsurprising text in other topics). However, when a thousand sources have written about Dickens, it is inevitable that some of them will have chosen to interpret Dickens' writings as racist or whatever. It is not satisfactory for an editor to find such sources and create articles based on them (that is undue cherry picking, aka ]). For major topics like these, there are hundreds of high-quality scholarly sources written by acknowledged subject experts, and it those sources that should be used for a neutral encyclopedia. ] (]) 07:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::I don't think that YK has stopped anyone from editing the page. If you think it is biased, then use the talk page of that article. Have you added any content or made any efforts at it to dispute sources etc. before claiming that he is cherry picking, even without any discussion.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 07:36, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::: Where is this discussion heading to? Some dispute that needs to be settled on the talk page is being brought up here in support of a topic ban --] (]) 08:17, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::I am referring to "POV pushing and use of UNDUE sources over an extended period" and explaining that it is easy to cherry pick POV commentary from sources for major topics—that is why a topic ban is required. ] (]) 09:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::@Johnuniq: Really? You imply here that 36,031 bytes page size with 39 references used in it is a baised point of view? Forget the page size. I can stretch articles to huge lengths (just like Dicken's writings). But 39 valid independant references does not seem like something that can be ignored and not included in an article. -] (]) 09:41, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::If the ] has consistently made, for which he has not provided any sources, the similar/same assertions about all users with views on the side of YK on the topic ], his opinion would have weight per me. Otherwise his views are not consistent w.r.t. editors.<font color="#FF9933">इति इतिUAनेति नेति]</font> 19:31, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			I hope that this is the right forum for this. If not, my apologies, and please let me know where to redirect this to.
	*'''Comment''': Two points i want to say....<br> 1. As i see, most of the comments by editors here are complaints based on content dispute on various articles. I have observed a few threads here at ANI which keep on saying that content dispute should be addressed on a seperate forum assigned just for resolving those and ANI shall not be used to deal with it. So... if all the complaints are based on content dispute, this is a wrong place! Furthermore, I do not understand why the editors against YK's edits are actually against YK. Most of his edits which are called as "Undue" here actually are well referenced. 50:1 ratio will be called as undue. But i dont see such a huge ratio here. He clearly cites more than one references about various points he includes. I dont call it undue. All editors here should understand that Wikipedian editors should be neutral about the subject, but at the same time keep in mind that Misplaced Pages's aim is to be information bank which can be used for research. If contradictory views of reliable sources present on the topic are not mentioned in the article, i will call ''that'' as undue. Also, wikipedia articles are never complete. One must hence always assume good faith in other editors and not disregard the chance that something more of same sort might exist in other places which is yet not covered and brough to wikipedia. Building of articles might take long time and as wikipedians are not bound to do anything for wikipedia, it is unfair to assume that facts mentioned are Undue. <br> Come on! Isnt it really good to have all views about a topic mentioned? <br> 2. As few ediotrs have pointed out above, other few editors who have not been involved in these topics should not vote here as Support or Oppose. I request them to change their views from Support or Oppose to "Comments". Although i do trust that admins who go through this would "read" carefully, i also trust in errors that humans can do. -] (]) 08:44, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	:*1) No, this is not itself a content dispute, it is about YK's chronic tendentious *behaviour* in content disputes and his repeated attempts to push his own POV against policy and against consensus. As a behavioural issue, this is a perfectly valid venue for it.
	::*Meant to add - A Misplaced Pages article is not a repository for every opinion ever aired on a subject or a place to publish all views, with each given equal weighting - that's not what balance is all about. A Misplaced Pages article is supposed to balance various views in accordance with the weighting given to them in the real world, by academics and experts as published in reliable sources. Fringe theories and minority views should only be included in proportion to the support they get in the real world, as support by reliable sources. -- ] (]) 11:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	:*2) Anyone is allowed to support or oppose the suggestion as they please, even if they have not been involved in these topics. In fact, previously uninvolved people examining the presented evidence with fresh eyes can be of great benefit - if YK is innocent of the charges, surely that's what they'll decide when they review the evidence, isn't it? -- ] (]) 10:04, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::We live in an age when even the craziest assertions can be traced to someone who has already made them in a public forum. It doesn't make the assertion sourced, especially not to a reliable source. I have written most of the history section of the long-standing FA ]. It is sourced to impeccable sources. I have tried to use textbooks on the history of India that are used in undergraduate and graduate courses in the best universities around the world and published by well-known academic publishers. The reason for this is that such textbooks have been vetted for balance. Many editors try to insert one-sided points of view into the India article, sourced to poor unreliable sources. They are usually dealt with on the article talk page. However, when an editor does this relentlessly, dozens, indeed scores of dozens, of times, it becomes a behavioral problem. When an editor does this with full knowledge of what he is doing, it becomes a behavioral problem. I don't appear at ANI that often. Perhaps one or twice a year. Let me state very definitively: Yogesh Khandke is likely the worst (and certainly one of the worst) of the tendentious editors I have had the sad privilege of encountering in my six years on Misplaced Pages. If editors here seem against him, he has only himself to blame. He has wasted an enormous amount of time of law-abiding, content creating, editors. It is time for Yogesh Khandke to go. ]] 10:43, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::: Agreed that these days we can find source for assertion made but who is to decide what is crazy and what is not? call it crazy if it not in match with your POV? --] (]) 12:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::Misplaced Pages would not exist if this sort of solipsism were the norm here. Figuring out what to include and what to exclude is not a question of "matching with your POV" (unless a POV is the only thing an editor brings to the encyclopedia). Rather, it is a question of incorporating whatever is the consensus view amongst scholars. "Most historians" captures that adequately. However, the larger issue here is Khandke's tendentious behavior rather than what is "right" or "wrong". I'm perfectly happy to discuss insertion of new material but, when it involves misrepresentation, an "us and them" attitude, alteration of sources, stuff like that, I think it is time to say thanks but goodbye to Khandke. --] <small>(])</small> 14:43, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::It's decided by consensus in discussion (see ]), and once a consensus has been reached, one should not keep restarting the same content war over and over again. -- ] (]) 12:09, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::: you are right ], but a consensus was never reached, all the sources provided were discarded by few editors neither there was any third opinion on the matter --] (]) 12:32, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::Consensus does not mean a unanimous decision with everybody agreeing, it means an evaluation of the arguments made in accordance with policy. Having re-read a number of previous disputes, I see YK repeatedly trying to misrepresent sources, and pushing minor sources against arguments made in full compliance with Misplaced Pages's ] policy. And I see far more than three opinions offered in those disputes. -- ] (]) 12:38, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::: Well, that was extremely dramatic of HumorThisThat to over-react about my comment about Yogesh. Do not ] HumorThisThat. So stop being such a ]. ] ]
	::::::::::], The history section of the ] page was rewritten during a few months in Spring (April through June) 2011 during a lengthy ] of the page where dozens of experienced FA and FAR hands were watching, and finally supporting. If that is not consensus, what is? Where were you guys then? It has been a year since. All the Hindu nationalist fringe theorists whose opinions you are impaling us with had already had their various epiphanies about the topic by then. ]] 13:59, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::::: Fowler you are talking about a discussion that had taken place almost a year ago, are you suggesting that nothing should change after the edits that were made? Consensus was never reached during the last discussion, I am not referring to something that happened over a year ago. Thanks --] (]) 14:27, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			Thanks for taking a look.] (]) 08:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::''Replies to Boing! and Fowler'': "Once a consensus has been reached, one should not keep restarting the same content war over and over again" is wrong. Consensus can not be necessarily permanant. New experienced/inexperienced editors keep on coming to newer topics. Newer sources can be found. Thus consensus can very well change. (Its written somewhere in some policy. You all probably know where.) I dont understand how re-raising an old point again is a problem. You all very-well give references to age-old fights when you want someone blocked! You don't let bygones as bygones then! Do you? An editor who believes in something and wants in it the article has every right to discuss it to introduce the content he wants. He ofcourse needs consensus. When YK (or anyone) re-raises the discussion, the editors who said no to it last time jump in again and again say no. The intention of re-raising the subject is to partly see whether old editors' views have changed and partly see if new editors have arrived who agree with him. If old editors' views are still same, they need to say that. But that does not mean they close the discussion and not allow newer editors to ponder. Hence i find you all also faulty here. It takes two to fight. <br> As to my 2nd point above.... Editors are surely welcome to post their views here. But the main topic here is discussion on "topic" ban. Its not a montly meet of I-Hate-YK Club. ] is supporting ban for some reason. I havent understood what the reason is. (& why is he now poking in my space?) ] is also supporting ban for some Dicken's article. How is that related? Its like, "Yesterday he bumped me and my icecream fell. Let me say that this has nothing to do with the topic. But i say Block him!" -] (]) 14:03, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::Yes, that is a good point about consensus not being unchangeable - and yes, past consensus decisions can be revisited. But when it's the same points, with the same old arguments, and the same old sources, brought up again and again and again, it really starts to move away from the fair re-examination of past consensus and towards tendentious disruption. As for "''You don't let bygones as bygones then! Do you?''", if they really were bygones I'd be delighted to let them go. But the whole reason for this proposal is that it is YK who won't get them go, and instead keeps starting up the same old POV-pushing and refusal to follow sourcing and NPOV policy over and over again. -- ] (]) 14:21, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::And PS: As for why ] has offered an opinion, I can't answer for him, but how about the possibility that he clicked on the links provided, read what they linked to, and formed his opinion based on that? You know, try a bit of ]? -- ] (]) 14:26, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::*What the hell is the matter if I just support a ban. It's my account (yes, i just renamed) , I have the right to edit, so what on earth is the big deal. I've had a view of Yogesh's contributions, and you have to admit that they are extremely disruptive in nature. Now let's stop creating such a huge ] situation here. It is '''purely unethical'''. Arguing all over and moving all over the place isn't helping anyone, nor it is helping yourself. Oh god, this stuff just turned a lot more all-over. First a discussion about a ban about Yogesh, then some guy over-reacts about my comment and then moves on to a blocking of another editor. Good grief guys. Well done for screwing up this whole thing. I will contact an admin about your behavior if this condescends into a more stupid matter. ] (]) 14:25, 29 March 2012 (UTC) <small>(Moved this comment up to the appropriate section so it's clear what it's replying to - hope you don't mind, Soviet King -- ] (]) 14:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)</small>
	:::@Boing! and also others: Lets take this example. <br> ] on 22 February 2012 says at ] "Yogesh, you have banging this drum for more than two years. It seems you are advancing a personally held political position. The article is not a soapbox nor a vehicle for political promotion."<br> What we have after YK's so called "drum banging", "advancing personally held political positions", "persistent and tendentious modus operandi", etc. is ] with numerous reliable sources and a completely valid self-standing article. Various editors opposed him when the Dicken's discussion started. But looking at the present condition of the article we see how YK's editings were right and other editors were just not ready to accept that. I know that they still disagree with points of undue weightage and POV. But numerous independant references on that article give different image than what these other editors hold. The conculsion here is, all the so-called YK's views on Dickens are not really his views. Had other editors been considerate enough to view this material properly at the start, YK wouldnt have needed to be tendentious. Again, it takes two to fight! And after proving himself right at Dickens one should seriously think that others, and not YK, can also be wrong. -] (]) 15:56, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::It is not about "right" and "wrong". It is about consensus, reliable sources, correct quotations, balance, cherry-picking, pov-forking and numerous other issues. I'd wager a bet that there is much that is dubious in the article to which you have linked, simply because that is YK's modus operandi (and it can be seen in umpteen comments he appears to have made a various blogs, news websites etc). However, any review of the article by me will have to wait until Sunday. Suffice for now to say that his recently created articles concerning Indian news media/people have been pretty woeful and, yes, non-neutral. - ] (]) 16:21, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Sitush, it is about being right & wrong. Other editors repeatedly said he was wrong and these were his own opinions on Dickens. When given time, he proved his points were not his own but of other reputed writers backing with sources. And to his modus operandi of being tendentious and sometimes aggressive and annoying one should blame opponent stubborn editors. Frankly speaking, if YK is able to fight all these obstinate editors he is doing a brilliant job. -] (]) 16:42, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::::Animesh, you're generally a reasonable editor. But, classifying misquoting and cherry picking sources as a "brilliant job" does not become you. I don't see any problem with reasonable discourse but, when an editor cannot be trusted to correctly quote sources, then we're better off without that editor. It is this 'no holds barred in getting my POV across' attitude that is detrimental to this encyclopedia. And, when that 'no holds barred' editor also calls the theory he does not like a fairy tale or attempts to recast it as an obviously discredited theory, then there is little doubt of that editors intentions (and little doubt that the net result is going to be not good for wikipedia). I should also add that Khandke's tendency to frame debates as an 'us Indians' vs 'them colonialists/westerners/whatever' is also extremely bad for the encyclopedia. Not only does it make otherwise well meaning editors think that 'India' is under attack, it also leads to a tendency to discount scholarly sources and research. And, scholarly sources are the only independent yardstick by which the quality of this encyclopedia is measurable. --] <small>(])</small> 17:10, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::@RegentsPark: <small>Firstly sorry that i did not reply to your upper post. I did not notice it. Usually when debatable discussions get this long and non-followable i quit them and say do whatever you want. That is a reason for me calling his work as brilliant.</small> Cherry-picking and misquoting is obviously wrong. But thats what other editors can check and correct. That doesnt mean indefinite ban. I dont see "We have to rework on whatever he does" as a reason for ban. As to tendentious behaviour towards a group of editors i have already said before that those editors are to be blamed for it. It seems to be natural that he has to be aggressive while fighting alone against many others. That is not a reason for indefinite ban. But that can very well be a reason for controlling/monitoring discussions on these topics between YK & those editors. Does it mean over work? Yes! But over work is not reason to ban. These matters are all content disputes which can be handled without ban. Considering the fact that all of his edits are well sourced, we know that he is usually not writing something wrong but is surely bringing a contrasting view than the one that dominates the whole article. I see that as a good thing as it makes article unbiased. If he is banned, how do you propose to handle these points when he is not supposed to talk about them? Wont that be a lose? <br>When i read Wiki articles i mostly consider them to be full. Even after becoming an editor here i mostly find it difficult to add something to an article which seems full. If YK is being able to add something new to a long standing FA (which one can call as stagnant and something that the then-editors thought of), it is a good thing. -] (]) 18:18, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''': Now merely translating my views for clarity as "Oppose" from "Comment". -§§] (]) 19:42, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
			:Hello, Delectopierre, if you have had any discussions where you actually tried to talk out your differences with this editor, please provide a link to them. They might be on User talk pages or article talk pages or noticeboards. But it's typically advised that you communicate directly with an editor before opening a case on ANI or AN and don't rely on communication like edit summaries. Also, if you haven't, you need to notify any editors you mention about this discussion. They should be invited to participate here. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' solely on the basis of behavior. User's modus operandi is persistent and tendentious; had experience with YK on the Ganges-move odyssey. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:10, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			::There isn't. I don't feel comfortable discussing wikihounding with them. It is, after all, harassment. ] (]) 09:20, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Comment'''. I have just reverted the latest personal jibe from <font color="#FF9933"> Humour Thisthat2011</font> against ] (formerly Abhijay), which raised events that were nothing to do with this discussion. I would caution Humour Thisthat2011 to remember his previous bans for aggressive behaviour, and stop the unwarranted personal criticism of a good faith editor who has every right to offer his opinion in this discussion. Humour Thisthat2011, you need to calm down and stop throwing mud at people, stick to discussing the issue at hand, and try assuming good faith occasionally. -- ] (]) 19:36, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			:::Although I did link to my post today where I confronted them with their behavior (except the wikihounding, as it hadn't happened yet). So that is an attempt to discuss the other part.
	::] I would like to disagree, Humour Thisthat2011 had to support his previous argument about Soviet King's unwarranted display of support for the ban without really looking into the matter properly and it was also very much required in view of Soviet King's indirect threat(as written above by Soviet King) and its very much required now--] (]) 19:47, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			:::But after I tried to discuss it, instead of responding to it, they started wikhounding me. ] (]) 09:22, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::And you are guilty of exactly the same kind of Bad Faith behaviour - there are no justifications to the accusations that other contributors have not "looked into it" properly, and nobody has to satisfy you or him that they have. If your only tactics here are to throw dirt at those with whom you disagree, then you really are only damaging your own case. -- ] (]) 19:56, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			::::Maybe you should spend less energy “confronting” and more energy discussing and trying to learn from more experienced editors. ] (]) 13:38, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::] Humour Thisthat2011 provided proper justification but you reverted it --] (]) 20:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			:::::I try to learn when experienced editors engage with me in a helpful and respectful manner. Your comment does not fit that description.
	:::::Are personal attacks on the competence of your opponents the only kind of argument you people know? Because that's all that's happening here with the attacks on Abhijay. How about discussing the actual arguments people present here rather than trying to throw dirt at them personally? -- ] (]) 20:10, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			:::::As an aside, I wasn't aware that non-admin, IP-only editors, who are <u>not</u> involved with the incidents I've reported would be participating in this discussion. ] (]) 23:52, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::::: I had already given my closing comment under my vote but I felt I have to reply, what do you mean by "Are personal attacks on the competence of your opponents the only kind of argument '''you people know'''?" please refrain from using such language. I was referring to the evidence(the page history) that was given by ThisThat2011 which atleast shows that Soviet King made a decision in a hurry. I will not drag it further, I feel I have made my point. Thanks --] (]) 20:24, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			:I've notified Awshort as it still hasn't been done. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 15:05, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::"You people" is a second-person plural phrase, referring in this case to you and ThisThat2011. What on earth is wrong with that? And no, the "evidence" given by ThisThat2011 showed no such thing - no number of diffs can possibly show anything about when somebody read something or whether they were previously aware of an issue. But having said that, I've spoken to ThisThat2011 on his Talk page, and I will accept that he did not mean it as an attack. However, if you wish to carry on criticizing someone else's ability to form their own decisions, then I'll leave it to the closing admin to judge. The closing admin will be someone uninvolved, and will judge consensus based on the policy-based arguments presented on the subject of YK's behaviour, and I would strongly recommend that that's what you should stick to if you wish to influence the outcome. -- ] (]) 21:23, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			::Thank you, ActivelyDisinterested for doing so. ], you should have notified ] yourself, there are messages instructing editors to do so all over this page including on the edit notice that you see any time you post a comment here. As I said, you are also advised to discuss disputes first with involved editors before posting on a noticeboard. ANI is where you come for urgent, intractable problems, it's the last place you go when other methods of dispute resolution haven't worked. This also looks like a standard content disagreement regarding ] and the fact that Awshort reverted one of your edits. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:15, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::: Sarvajna, stop using such language against Boing. He's clearly trying to help mediate, and I did not use a indirect threat. If I gave you a threat, I would end up getting blocked by Boing! right now. I've wasted enough time here. Good luck to the next person reviewing this.
			:::Hi @] as I noted above, I attempted to discuss their behavior ], and their response was to wikihound me.
			:::As I said ] I don't feel comfortable discussing what feels like and seems to be harrasment, directly with them, as it felt like intimidation to stop confronting them about what I see as bad behavior on the article. I was waiting for a reply to that statement before proceeding.
			:::Is there really no process that allows for an instance when an editor feels uncomfortable? ] (]) 23:31, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I will also add that it appears as though this is '''not''' the first occurrence of this type of behavior, based ] by @]. I don't, however, know any of the details. ] (]) 23:35, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Re-reading your comment, @]:
			:::I think I’ve been unclear. The content dispute is a content dispute. You’re right about that.
			:::That is '''NOT''' why I posted here. I posted here because the content dispute spilled off that article and has now resulted in wikihounding. The wikihounding, specifically, is why I posted here. ] (]) 05:08, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I have closed the discussion with the rationale "Nothing more to do here. See ] and ]." ]] 13:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Could you please explain your rationale? I don’t follow. ] (]) 17:36, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::First, thank you {{u|ActivelyDisinterested}} for the initial ping and {{u|Liz}} for the follow-up ping. The majority of this is over the ] article as a whole, but there have been some policy issues sprinkled throughout. {{u|Delectopierre}} anyone can participate in noticeboard discussions whether involved or not, the 'IP-only editor' you referenced has more edits than both of us combined, and registration is not a requirement to edit Misplaced Pages nor participate in community noticeboards.
			:::{{tq|they follow me around to pages it doesn't appear they have had any interest in prior}} - That isn't since I post on the BLPN often, as well as using it to find articles I can help out on since I mainly focus on editing BLP's. I checked out the BLPN, noticed it was missing a discussion of interest from earlier in the day (Maynard James Keenan) and checked the edit history to see if it was removed for a reason. I saw the previous edit by DP had it as well as another discussion so I restored it. That wasn't me 'hounding' them, that was me fixing an error so other discussions could continue. I checked DP's edit history later to see if any similar edits had been made recently in case those needed fixed as well, saw the edit history for edit with the summary ''critics don't accuse him of anti-semitism. he is an antisemite,'' and checked the edit which had been changed to calling the person that. The prior had the edit summary of ''adding back david icke qualifier'', so I checked that one as well since I assumed it would be similar. When it was confirmed, I reverted since it seemed a BLP violation as well as ]. Since there was a talk page discussion regarding the prior one, I that I had removed it from another article as well, in case it went to a noticeboard both could be noted. It is worth noting that the edit I was originally a few months prior by the same user. I think most editors would have acted in the similar manner regarding the edits and I stand behind them.
			:::I think {{tq|Awshort's edit summary was not the language I hope experienced editors would use with ''newer editors like myself''.}} is somewhat disingenuous when on their first full day of editing the Lorenz article after being registered since 2018 and mostly inactive they seemed to know enough policies to quote them in their edit summaries (, , ), their that to BLPN referenced NPOV,  as well as learning other policies that were left on their talk page ( by {{u|TheSandDoctor}}, by {{u|Little Professor}}).
			:::And it's hard to reply to the linked conversation above where it's implied I'm hounding in the closing with only one side of the story presented.
			:::] (]) 13:50, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::"I checked DP's edit history later to see if any similar edits had been made recently in case those needed fixed as well,"
			::::]
			::::"Hounding on Misplaced Pages (or "wikihounding") is the singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work."
			::::I don't understand how this isn't open and shut. ] (]) 21:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::The same section that you're quoting also says {{tq|Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or '''correcting related problems on multiple articles'''.}} (bold added) ]&nbsp;] 21:56, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::There is nothing related about the other articles they followed me to, and I fail to see how the problems are related. The only common denominator is me. They will, I'm sure, say they're all BLP. Doesn't matter, tons of this encyclopedia is BLP and if Awshort feels I shouldn't be editing any BLP, there are methods of addressing that belief that don't include following me around wikipedia to make sure I don't do anything they disagree with. ] (]) 04:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It's only hounding if they act on it. You need to show at least a few diffs that they are editing on a page you are editing, and they would not have been interested in it otherwise. If they are stalking your history, but do nothing, its technically non-actionable. ] (]) 22:17, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Those diffs are in my original post. ] (]) 04:30, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Also going "this editor made problmatic edits, I should check their history to make sure they haven't made more, and fix any others they've made" is most assuredly ''not'' hounding. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:39, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::After a long winded disagreement on a talk page that included them starting multiple edit wars, my view is there are ''much'' better ways of addressing this. For example, they could have started a conversation on my talk page.
			::::::Additionally, who is to say which edits are problematic? I view a number of edits Awshort made as problematic, so I disengaged from the conversation rather than continuing to go in circles.
	===Arbitrary break===
	*'''Comment''' - can't comment on the topic ban, but something needs to be done, and I think a RfC/U might the direction to take. Yogesh's edition style is clearly tendentious and off-putting. ] is a page with between 8000 to 10,000 views per day, yet his edit warring there and the pattern of his contributions to the article and talk - page has driven away editors who would have pitched in for a rewrite of the page . This goes far beyond a content dispute, it's a pattern that drives away editors who are willing to make useful contributions. That's a problem in my view. ] (]) 00:52, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
	::Given the number of times YK has been here, I don't think an RfC/U is needed. Specifically, I call attention to the comments of the last person who blocked YK:
	::{{quotation|I've blocked Yogesh Khandke for one week, both for the utterly unacceptable comment he made regarding MatthewVanitas's edits and for the other evidence presented above of his ongoing WP:BATTLEGROUND approach to editing. I had considered an indefblock because I strongly believe that users who make the editing atmosphere unpleasant for others are a net negative, no matter what content edits they've made, and we're better off without them. Editor recruiting and retention is a growing issue and combative attitudes are actively destructive. However, I decided to to err on the side of caution... although I consider any return to editing after the week is up in the light of WP:ROPE. Review welcome as always, EyeSerenetalk 11:37, 29 July 2011 (UTC)}}
	::An RfC/U would ultimately just waste time, since they can't result in any formal sanctions, and the ANI history alone should be sufficient for a full topic ban. And if that's not enough, then I strongly recommend reading the discussions on ]. I'll admit I've only read part of them, because it's extensive.
	::Disclaimer, just to save YK and his defenders time: I'm one of those involved editors who is unfairly prejudiced against YK from the past, who has been engaged in a long-standing witch-hunt against him and others, and who is a part-time member of the Sitush-Boing-Fowler-MatthewVanitas cabal (you know, that cabal that wants Misplaced Pages to follow devilish rules like ] and ]). ] (]) 13:36, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
	* '''Oppose'''. Do an RfC/U, if need be. '''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font><font color="#0000FF">]</font>''' 13:49, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
	:*As Qwyrxian says, a RfC/U is not likely to achieve much. We've gone past the point where it would be useful. Yogesh knows exactly where he stands with regard to his Misplaced Pages life and has known this for some considerable time now, but nonetheless chooses to continue with more of the same. Classic battleground stuff, in fact. As with {{u|Zuggernaut}} and {{u|MangoWong}} (both of whom seem to have decided to retire), he holds some very firm anti-colonial etc views and they massively affect his ability to understand that there are other viewpoints, let alone that his own are fringe-y. His cherry-picking and misquoting is also not a new thing and does rather suggest that it is a deliberate attempt to subvert our policies. RfC/U will merely result in another visit to this noticeboard at some point in the near future. If we're lucky, it may not be until July but past history suggests that he is likely to be around in April and then absent May/June, so I wouldn't bank on it being so long before we are back here. , although I am deaf & cannot hear it. - ] (]) 15:04, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
	:**Are you suggesting there is something '''''wrong''''' with having firm anticolonial views, or that such views are "fringe-y"? Last time I looked, colonialism had decidedly gone out of fashion. I will not stand by and watch people who have their own NPOV problems take out an opposing editor through summary justice at AN/I, just because we have more Western than Indian editors here, and each group comes to the topic with their own favourite literature and perspective. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font><font color="#0000FF">]</font>''' 06:08, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
	:***No, that's not it. I understand Sitush's mention of "very firm anti-colonial etc views" to be a coded way of saying that certain editors are overcompensating for past oppressions, and they look for ways to poke the former colonialists. That would be excellent '''if''' it were confined to giving a ] summary from typical scholarly works. However, as noted above, with enormous topics like ] or ] there are literally thousands of marginally reliable sources that have written from just about every conceivable angle, and cherry picking from those marginal sources allows an editor to insert almost any desired slant. For example, it is extremely undue to pick Dickens out from all the people alive worldwide in 1850 and assert that Dickens was racist—the truth is that the world is a very different place since then, and while an article on how views have changed in the last 150 years would be good, using cherry-picked dubious or primary sources (rather than comprehensive scholarly works written by acknowledged experts) is not satisfactory. ] (]) 09:56, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
	:****OK, here's my take on this. I consider myself pretty strongly anti-colonialist, and I am of the firm opinion that the British in India committed massive abuses and atrocities. The British Empire was not glorious and heroic, it was a shameful episode of history - as were the colonial conquests of the Dutch, French, Spanish, Portuguese, etc. But the answer to that is not to re-write the history of India from a Hindu Nationalist POV - that would be no more acceptable than having, say, the history of the UK written by a British Nationalist group. We need to write our Misplaced Pages articles on India in as neutral and well-documented a way as possible. And to do that, we should weight them based on the best academic sources we have available. We should not allow cherry-picking from all manner of minor and fringe sources to try to right past wrongs or change unfavourable history, and we should have no room for anyone who repeatedly edit-wars to adopt such a tendentious approach. That's what I think is meant here, and it really is the only way an encyclopedia should be written. -- ] (]) 14:32, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
	:*****Frankly, I get worried if the given in evidence of an editor's malfeasance sees him citing Cambridge University Press and the Times of India, the cites the University of Michigan Press, and I then see him accused of citing fringe sources. '''''Fringe sources?''''' If you want to make a case that he cites fringe sources, don't come with University Press sources that actually happen to bear out what he says. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font><font color="#0000FF">]</font>''' 18:03, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
	:******Nobody here is claiming that *all* the sources he has ever cited are fringe sources - but much of the criticism here is that, amongst other things, he has frequently misrepresented reliable sources (and again, nobody is saying that *every* citation he has given is misrepresented). -- ] (]) 19:23, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
	:*******Yeah! No one is saying he is *everytime* wrong. But they are just saying, lets block him so that he can never be wrong neither right! -] (]) 21:31, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
	:***@Johnuniq: Why do you call "picking" Dickens by YK as ''undue''? Because Dickens is non-Indian and YK is Indian? Is that the reason? Is there some rule that editors cannot edit articles related to other projects? And whats wrong in writing about Dickens' racism if it existed? Being 150 years old doesnt make it go away. Its like saying after 100 years we should edit ] and remove all material related to Holocaust because the world is a very different place since then. As you are free to edit any article here, so is he. Misplaced Pages is not compulsary. If he edits about Dickens' racism he is not bound to write about how racism has reduced in 150 years. Nor is he bound to right about everyone's or anyone else's racism to prove he hasnt unduely picked Dickens. -] (]) 22:55, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
	:****I don't care where editors come from. In a 100 years there will still be lots of scholarly sources that accurately describe Hitler and the Holocaust. It's getting off-topic so this will be my final explanation here regarding my attitude towards Dickens. What would be very interesting (if suitable sources are available) would be an article on how different are the attitudes between typical people from 1850 and today. If a time machine transported a typical person from just about any country in 1850 and got them to live in society today, it is highly likely we would be shocked by their toilet habits, table ettiquette, views on gender and race equality, and opinions regarding a wide range of human activities. However, to pick one person from 1850 and declare that their attitudes were unacceptable is UNDUE as it fails to mention that something similar could be said for most people from that period. It would be fine to state that Dickens was racist '''if''' that is the conclusion from scholarly sources written by acknowledged experts in the topic of Dickens and the history of the period. This is very similar to the ] where hundreds of arguably reliable sources have written just about every conceivable conclusion about Shakespeare, and one editor could easily "prove" that Bacon wrote Shakespeare's works, while another could do the same for Oxford (people claiming to be expert have supported ''seventy'' different candidates as being ''the'' author). The only way for progress to occur at Misplaced Pages is for major topics (where hundreds of marginally reliable sources are available), is for articles to be based on the major scholarly works written by acknowledged experts. ] (]) 01:44, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
	:*****Oooooh dear! You are at the wrong address. You should post your request for new article ] at ]. -] (]) 09:11, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
	::To Jayen466, Please don't flatter the sources that YK pushes by calling them anti-colonial. The Hindu nationalist cranks that are pushing the "Out of India" theories on various Hindu nationalist website have no history of anti colonial views. They were nowhere to be seen when the anti-colonial struggle was being waged in India by Gandhi and others before him. They made their first notable appearance when they murdered Gandhi. They see a firm connection between "Out of India" and "Get out of India (if you are Muslim)," and are all virulently anti-Muslim. (This also goes for the Hindu nationalists' confused western sympathizers such as Konraad Elst and David Frawley.) The problem with YK other references (Cambridge, University of Michican) is that he quotes them deceitfully. Gavin Flood, for example, that he quotes in support of his views, says clearly at the outset that the most widely-believed theory to date is that of Indo-Aryan migration. He then says that lately there have been some other views, but then goes on to himself support a revised Indo-Aryan migration based on the work of ]. What does YK do? He deliberately says nothing about Floods opening paragraph, saying nothing about his revised views; he only mentions the one sentence about their being other views! I'm afraid Yogesh Khandke is about the worst of deceitful POV pushers I've seen on Misplaced Pages. The earlier he is topic banned from South Asian history, the better it will be for Misplaced Pages. ]] 16:20, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
	::: Fowler, this would not be a place to showcase your political opinion about "Hindu Nationalist" and you know that very well. Please keep your personal opinion out of this discussion and would not suit an <s>admin</s> editor to make statements like "They made their first notable appearance when they murdered Gandhi. They see a firm connection between "Out of India" and "Get out of India (if you are Muslim)," and '''are all virulently anti-Muslim.'''" also Hindu Nationalist were equally fighting for freedom and your statement "They were nowhere to be seen when the anti-colonial struggle was being waged in India by Gandhi and others before him." is insulting and false. --] (]) 11:28, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::{{xt|would not suit an admin to make statements like "They made their first notable appearance when they murdered Gandhi. They see a firm connection between "Out of India" and "Get out of India (if you are Muslim)," and '''are all virulently anti-Muslim.'''"}} Who said Fowler&fowler was an admin? Has the camp defending YK gone to the lengths of making up positions of power for people to discredit them? —] (] • ]) 11:32, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::: Sorry, my comment was meant to be a generic one. I have made the correction( I hope it had not created a lot of confusion, you are pointing out a small typo but have nothing to write about my comment??)--] (]) 11:40, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::Hi sarvajna. I do think your comment has merit, and I think the comment you replied to strayed too far into personal political opinion. But I also think it is important to distinguish between Hindu nationalism and anti-colonialism, because the two are not equivalent (although, of course, it is possible to be in both camps). We are talking here about the pushing of a Hindu nationalist agenda, and are not suggesting sanctioning someone for being anti-colonialist (if we did the latter, I think we'd have to ban just about everyone here). And I think that's something that needs to be made clear to whoever takes on the daunting task of evaluating the consensus here. -- ] (]) 12:06, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::Hi ] if I was not clear let me restate it, comments like "They made their first notable appearance....'''are all virulently anti-Muslim.'''" and ""They were nowhere to be seen when the anti-colonial struggle..." may be Fowlers own opinion and they need not be discussed here, that is all I wanted to convey in my reply. Thanks --] (]) 12:32, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::Yep, I agree with you on that. -- ] (]) 12:37, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::Though I agree that fowler's opinions should not be discussed here, to be fair to him he was responding to JN466's comments about western editors and Indian editors. Fowler's point was that the material pushed by the Indian editor in this case, YK, is neither representative of what is accepted by academic historians nor is it representative of the view of Indians in general but that it arises from a group that is particularly good at pushing its own agenda. We should focus more on what reliable sources say and less on where a particular editor happens to come from, especially when someone is misquoting and misrepresenting scholarly work (all to easy in this age of google) to push their pov across. --] <small>(])</small> 13:26, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::::Sarvajna, Everything I say is based in sources. Here is {{citation|last=Smith|first=David James|title=Hinduism and Modernity|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=wLyOenFTjT0C&pg=PA38|accessdate=2 April 2012|year=2003|publisher=Blackwell Publishers|isbn=978-0-631-20862-4|pages=38–39}} Quote (pages 38-39): "The counter-view, the 'indigenous Aryan' thesis, is upheld by a small group of enthusiastic Westerners, most notably Konrad Elst and David Frawley. The latter's Myth of the Aryan Invasion sold out in 18 days on its first publication in India. But these writers, like the Hindu fundamentalists whose cause they espouse, are vehemently anti-Muslim, and the two positions seem generally tied together the Aryan invasion has been refuted; and the Muslim invasion of several hundred years ago should he reversed." Next time, stop wasting people's time by making needless drama. ]] 14:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
			::::::Lastly, could you help me understand how a non-admin editor checking another editor's history and reverting their edits is not hounding? It seems to fit the definition of hounding.
	Fowler, stop making rude and personal comments.
			::::::] (]) 04:36, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	I am not the only one who thought that you are pushing personal political opinion, if you have a source doesn't mean anything. If a source is all that you require than YK had several sources to his arguments. '''They made their first notable appearance when they murdered Gandhi'''??? all Hindu Nationalist are murderers?? also Hindu nationalist were present even during Gandhi and were noteable enough(do you need names?) many Hindu Nationalist were freedom fighters unlike mentioned by you '''They were nowhere to be seen when the anti-colonial struggle was being waged in India by Gandhi and others before him'''. --] (]) 16:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
			:::::::Easy. Someone sees you made an edit they consider problematic. They go and check your other edits to see if you made other problematic edits. They revert any problematic edits they find. Being an admin or not has nothing to do with it. If they ''continually'' do this over a period of time, then it may be hounding. If they go through it once because they noticed something, it's not. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Like I just aid above, everything I say is based in sources. Here is {{citation|last=Hadiz|first=Vedi R.|title=Empire and neoliberalism in Asia|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=PX_W86XM7VcC&pg=PA247|accessdate=2 April 2012|year=2006|publisher=Taylor & Francis|isbn=978-0-415-39080-4|pages=247–}} Quote (p. 247): "Hindu fundamentalism derives its ideological orientation from a kind of Brahmanism that naturalizes a hierarchical structure of the world and, therefore, does not harbour serious ideological contradictions with many forms of political and cultural domination, which explains its various paradoxes. While committed to Hindu nationalism. it never came into serious conflict with British colonial rule and, rather, opposed anti-colonial struggle. While subscribing to the Gandhian vision of development, its adherents were responsible for Gandhi's death;" Are you sure you want to carry on this argument? I'm getting a headache reading your boldface lettering. ]] 18:29, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
			::::::::Fair enough. Thanks. ] (]) 21:33, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::{{tq|After a long winded disagreement on a talk page ''that included them starting multiple edit wars''}} - Ignoring the dig about 'long winded disagreement' and just pointing out the following since I was accused yet again of something else
			:::::::<ol>'''##''' 'Attempts to discredit her work'
			:::::::# of RollingStone reference and 'attempts to discredit her work' text by DP on Aug 17, 24
			:::::::# removes on Dec 11 with ] as reason.
			:::::::# by DP Dec 13, empty edit summary.
			:::::::# again by FMSky with same edit summary
			:::::::# by DP with no edit summary, again
			:::::::# moves text further down based on what the included reference says.
			:::::::# by DP
			:::::::</ol>
			:::::::{{pb}}
			:::::::<ol>'''##''' 'Doxxing standard part of the reporting process'
			:::::::# of text about doxxing, 'standard part of the reporting process' by DP Aug 17, 24
			:::::::# in Nov 27 by myself, as it was already included with the same reference earlier in the paragraph.
			:::::::# shortly after by DP
			:::::::# on Nov 28 with a quote on what the text of the included reference actually stated, which was not what was included.
			:::::::</ol>{{pb}}
			:::::::<ol>'''##''' Podcast
			:::::::# section added Aug 17 by DP
			:::::::# some of the podcast text that seemed promotional and wasn't supported by the included reference Nov 27
			:::::::# by DP Nov 27
			:::::::# both the Podcast reinsertion, and the previous reporting texts on Nov 28 with the same reasoning and asked to take it to TP and try to obtain consensus before insertion again.
			:::::::</ol>{{pb}}
			:::::::<ol>'''##''' 'Assaulted'
			:::::::# section which included 'assaulted' added Aug 17 by DP
			:::::::# the word assaulted from the harassment section on Nov 28 since it was covered in her career section.
			:::::::# by DP on Dec 3 as ]
			:::::::# per talk, undue, and covered in Career Dec 14
			:::::::<ol>{{pb}}
			:::::::<ol>'''##''' 'Coordinated'
			:::::::# removed the word coordinated under BLP grounds (accusing Tucker Carlson of coordinating attacks) Dec 14
			:::::::# by DP on Dec 24
			:::::::# per WP:SYNTH since the word wasn't in the included reference on Dec 24</ol>
			:::::::{{pb}}
			:::::::It isn't limited to just this article, though. {{pb}}
			:::::::<ol>'''##''' 'Anti-Semitic'
			:::::::# label of ] added on April 9
			:::::::# by Zane362 Nov 11
			:::::::# by DP Dec 26
			:::::::# by myself on Dec 27
			:::::::</ol>
			:::::::{{pb}}{{pb}}
			:::::::It seems like the very definition of ] {{tq|An editor reverts justified article changes by different editors repeatedly over an extended period to protect a certain version, stable or not.}} This isn't entirely an "I don't like Awshort messing with my edits" issue; this is a "I don't like anyone messing with my edits" issue.
			:::::::{{pb}}
			:::::::::Coincidentally, its also covered in ] at ]: {{tq|It is also not harassment to track a user's contributions for policy violations (see above); that is part of what editor contribution histories are for. ''Editors do not own article content, or their own edits, and any other editor has the right to revert edits as appropriate. Unwarranted resistance to such efforts may be a sign of ownership behavior and lead to sanctions.''}}
			:::::::{{pb}}
			:::::::On almost every attempt to edit text inserted by DP, be it by other editors or myself, editors are met with resistance. That includes when their text that was inserted is changed in any manner, including being reworded or moved.
			:::::::] (]) 19:59, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from ] ==
	* '''Support''' The Ganges move debacle was a long time ago. If Yogesh hasn't learned how to contribute constructively by now, he must have decided not to change. Tendentious editors like Yogesh are a poison to the community, as Saravask's evidence shows. --]] 17:21, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
			], a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Request''' Please make it a bit clearer what is being supported/opposed. Obviously those opposing want no sanction, while those supporting are wanting a topic ban per the original request, namely South Asian history. However, subsequent comments have claimed a wider problem, and some of the more recent supports are worded in a way that suggests that something more is being supported. ] (]) 23:54, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
			:You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use <nowiki>{{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~</nowiki> on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --] (]) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' per Fowler&fowler comments above; the danger of the disruption moving elsewhere is also noted and it might be best to add probation on disruptive editing to the ban proposed here. ----] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 06:16, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
			::On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics ( and ), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is , again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute.
	*'''Support'''. Tendentious in the extreme and here only to push a fringe POV which he does aggressively and relentlessly. He doesn't seem to want to work collaboratively. I would suggest general ban. <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">] (])</font> 10:43, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
			::Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	*:'''Comment''' - just to note that nothing is changing even while this thread continues. of a YK edit is a direct consequence of the subtle "colonial" POV pushing - the press agency in question was effectively shut down by the government of the newly-independent government of India, as per statements in sources that YK seemed to choose to ignore. The article was poor when created by YK and still needs some work but there really is no need to phrase things as they were prior to my revert. As a consequence of my expansion the lead section needs a rewrite, but the gratuitous insertion of "colonial" is not the way to do it. - ] (]) 23:50, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::Sitush, I dont see any harm in using some adjective for India in that sentence. But if you object using "colonial India" do you prefer "pre-Independence India" instead? -§§] (]) 05:45, 2 April 2012 (UTC)		:::We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --] (]) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally and , despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, . I asked him to , but .
	::::Have you seen what YK has done ? Leads are supposed to summarise articles. I am crap at writing them, but ''nowhere'' in the body of that article is there any mention of this claptrap. - ] (]) 23:18, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
			::::I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	*;Neutral comment from main author of ] aka ]
			:Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already , the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please.] ] 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Over the past few weeks I have developed a low-key form of a ] with ] whom I find alternately fascinating, frustrating, earnest, exasperating, clever, and obtuse. He both says things well worth considering and can be wildly over-the-top. I can never tell how much of the latter is due to poor command of English or not. Perhaps he is like a character in a Greek tragedy, a man with noble qualities but with a serious '']'' (character flaw) that undermines his better qualities.
			::I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:I have little expertise on matters Indian beyond having thoroughly enjoyed the ], watched ], ], a couple of good ] films, and worked through my brother's bad experience with a prominent Indian guru whom I shall not name, so I can't comment on YK's edits there but I can comment on his ] work.
			:::Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. ] ] 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:Very early in the Dickens' disputes, I had decided that while YK was disruptively ignoring consensus (to the point of driving away good editors from the article which is a very serious matter of concern) that as Polonius said of Hamlet ''Though this be madness there is method in it''. Somehow, I felt YK had to be simultaneously given his proper due (allowing his legitimate points in) while also reining in his excessive POV. Both editor ] and I agreed that the main article on Dickens should not have excessive space taken up discussing is racist attitudes (as they were relatively uninfluential on the English public), but that a fork article would be a good idea as long as enough people were involved to prevent it from being a ] or as one editor (rather ungenerously) put it, YK's "hobby horse". (As there has been both one full-length book on Dickens' xenophobia and it is mentioned in the ''Oxford Dictionary of English Literature'' there is certainly a basis for discussing it somewhere on WP.) (It was YK who created the article, but he was not the first to propose it. I wished he had waited a bit longer to get consensus on it, but I supported it.) I believe in this article I have been successful at accomplishing both aims. One of YK's very best contributions to the article was ] and I am grateful to YK for having added it to the article. (He quotes my complement above.) One of his very worst proposed contributions was trying to interpret writer Patrick Bratlinger as saying that "Dickens spawned a whole new genre of hate literature". This is a blatant misinterpretation of Mr. Bratlinger and clearly a "fringe" assertion.
			::::And here's explicit transphobia. It's her '''daughter''', no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:I am a little concerned that editor ] cites the excellence of the Dickens fork article in a manner that suggests the article is mostly Yogesh's work. It is largely my own rather free adaptation and revision of his work, which both involved some fertilizing (using YK's stuff & sources) and some pruning and weeding (rejecting other stuff of YK), and I respectfully disagree with ] that the article in its current form involves inappropriate synthesis and cherry-picking, though further discussion of that point should go on that article's talk page. Finally, I am disappointed that Yogesh is comparing anyone at Misplaced Pages with metapedia where he has also been maligned. Metapedia is a white supremacist Misplaced Pages, and (as I have already communicated privately to Yogesh) the fact that both editors here and there both have issues with Yogesh is more or less equivalent to noting both liberal columnnist ] and also the ] have both been highly critical of ]. (The metaphor I used in private communication was that both ], Communist film-maker ] and ] were all fond of Disney's film of ] but IMO my new analogy drives the point home more effectively.) US politics is filled these days with surreptitious and specious comparisons with one person or another to Hitler, and we don't need such comparisons on Misplaced Pages, which indirectly borders on ].--] (]) 17:40, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	::Hello WickerGuy! When i almost appreciated and gave all credit to YK for the new Dickens' article i did not want to demean any of the contributions by you and other editors too. But i wanted to stress out to other editors in this ANI fight of how YK was the reason for start of this article and how without his so-called hammering, tendentious, annoying behaviour this article would have had little chance of being what it is. Just like how YK's editings on Dickens were rejected at start by reasons of "drum beating", they are been done here on Indian articles too by giving little thought of how they could also be right. All the defects you mentioned in his editings like misinterpreting can be solved by other editors as you all did and as i mentioned somewhere above. I certainly dont see this flaw as some reason for any ban but i do appreciate how he rattles stable stagnant articles and brings a viewpoint which at times is overlooked for long. -§§] (]) 18:26, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::No apology necessary, but thanks (same re your gracious and kind notice on my page). If YK could develop a better style of interacting with other editors, the better parts of his overlooked viewpoint could be more easily incorporated into WP. The origins of the Dickens fork article are a bit "dodgy" as the Brits would say, but I think the results are good. It is quite true as you say that YK's persistence was largely the origin of the Dickens fork article which is now in (I think) fairly good shape, but I'm afraid it is also true that his behavior is the origin of the article being tagged with a POV template at the top (which YK has made inappropriate objections to) and at least one or two editors were contemplating nominating the article for deletion.--] (]) 18:55, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	::I appreciate WickerGuy taking the time to write down this long reflection on Yogesh Khandke's participation. I think we are getting closer to the nub of things. I am certain that without Yogesh Khandke, Misplaced Pages would be poorer. While his bloody-mindedness may not always be on target (whose is?), there are enough times when it is. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font><font color="#0000FF">]</font>''' 23:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::Hmm, what you're saying is that wikipedia is made richer by an editor who misrepresents sources, deliberately changes quotes from sources, continuously reframes debates (he is doing this in his latest post by conflating Aryan invasion and Aryan migration), all to push a pov that is, even in India, associated with right wing fringe groups. Baffles me, this sort of logic. --] <small>(])</small> 00:43, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::The topic ban we are discussing here is not about the Dickens page. YK's defenders can have him on that page until both time and times are done. But, in South Asian history, where I have some expertise and experience, he is easily among the worst of the deceitful, biased, and time-wasting editors I have dealt with in my six years on Misplaced Pages. Others before him have all been topic banned or indefinitely banned. When his South Asia topic ban is in place, he will be available, even more unreconstructed and many-splendored, on the Dickens page for the enrichment of your Misplaced Pages experience. This is really win-win. ]] 00:19, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' ''Short version:'' as per WickerGuy. ''Long version:'' This is the first ANI I've participated in, and I feel in a strange position. My dealings with YK have been largely confined to the Dickens page, where my contribution was almost entirely restricted to the search for a pragmatic solution to unblock a longstanding and depressing virtual standoff between YK and just about everyone else, which was itself becoming quite Dickensian. Like WG, I felt that the sort of subject matter which YK was anxious to shine the floodlights on, so to speak, was indeed of genuine encyclopedic note, but that his presentation and communication strategies were deeply misguided. As a proponent of -- rather than contributor to -- the present subarticle I feel WickerGuy deserves a really big round of applause both for his editorial work and, especially, the patience and understanding he has shown in trying to communicate constructively with YK. I recognize in myself some of the mixed feelings WG describes. Leaving aside the politics of POV, my impression is that YK hurts himself and his own causes by using quite inappropriate firepower (I believe this is the first time I've ever been accused of 'denialism') blasted off at all and sundry in a sort of ''me'' versus the rest of the world scenario, with replies -- often at cross purposes -- to multiple points and editors grouped together in a single paragraph, in such a way that it's rather difficult for everyone else to engage in a meaningful dialogue. How much of this is deliberately disruptive, how much a good-faith attempt to get a hearing? I've sometimes felt quite exasperated... But now that the sort of information which YK so wanted to be made available is present in a well-written, reasonably stable (albeit controversial) subarticle carefully supervised and authored by WG based on material largely gathered by YK the signs of systematic disruption here appear to be a thing of the past. Wasn't there an easier way of getting where we are now? Continuing to assume good faith, my hope is that YK will, more generally, come to see that it can be in his interests to relax a bit and start assuming some good faith in others (he's explained to me that certain misunderstandings were quite genuine, and I have no reason to doubt that). I also have a lot of sympathy with editors who are currently exasperated by the YK all guns blazing approach. I feel that one possible solution, if YK were willing, might be for him to allow himself be ] by an enterprising and experienced editor (of the calibre of WG) who has sympathies with some of the issues which concern him so much. Adoption might entail mutual agreement to focus for a while on topic areas where it's easier for him to find consensus (while temporarily resting other, more contentious areas where he's locally lost goodwill from other editors). I feel that, with the right sort of guidance regarding communication and impartial implementation of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, he could be surprised by how much he can achieve with a lot less hassle. Having said that, I think it's really important for him to acknowledge the need for a constructive change in good-faith outlook and style. My 2 cents, —] (]) 21:48, 2 April 2012 (UTC).
			*'''Comment''' I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:<small>To clarify my view on the "POV fork" issue: I think the article can be a legitimate subarticle (as distinct from "fork"), broadly along the same lines as ], even though Dickens's rather shocking racist views are far less widely publicized or influential than Wagner's. I'm not especially enamoured of the current title though. I've argued that Dickens deserves several other thematic subarticles, including questions surrounding other aspects of his his social involvement and influence. —] (]) 21:48, 2 April 2012 (UTC)</small>
			*:*'''Comment''' I would suggest Darwin review ]. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. ] (]) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Strong Support''' ban in all areas. Extremely tendentious editor, a perfect example of ] with novel interpretations of policy. As one editor has stated, it's sometimes easy to attribute his misreadings and ] to the fact that he's a non-native English speaker. I came to the conclusion that he encourages that perception as yet another tactic of his strategy of attrition, because in other interactions he's quick to grasp what is being discussed it it's to his advantage. I interacted with him on the ] page (which BTW is a disgrace to Misplaced Pages the last I checked) to try to bring it up to at least good status, but his edit-warring behavior and tendentiousness caused me to retreat after only a few days. I have dealt with his like before, and I don't have another two years of my life to waste trying to impose WP policies on someone who's only interested in their POV-pushing. He doesn't care about any other part of the page except for his particular interest, which in the case of the Dickens page was to expose the colonialistic racism at the core of everything Dickens wrote. It is gaming editors such as him who cause others to walk away from Misplaced Pages in disgust. And IMO the new Dickens article is nothing but a POV fork and should be deleted. Any valid points should be neutrally handled in the main article and given due weight. ] (]) 21:08, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
			*:*:@] I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? ] ] 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::@], the bottom line is that ''you don't get to question that.'' As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is '''not''' the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them ''any'' good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. ] (]) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. ] ] 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this ] (]) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read ]' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. ] (]) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. ] ] 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including ]) - otherwise you will be blocked. ]] 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. ] ] 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here.
			*:*::::::Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there.
			*:*::::::And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the ] area.] (]) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::I would suggest a '''topic ban''' is imposed. ]] 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::I would '''support''' a topic ban from ]. ] (]) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. ] (]) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. ]] 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? ] ] 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::::Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. ]] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::::You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. ] ] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::@] nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. ] ] 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. ] (]) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. ] ] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::::You fundementally misunderstand the scope of ] and the concept of topic area as well. ] (]) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::::Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. ] ] 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::::::I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. ] (]) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::::::it was a collective you. ] ] 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::::::::The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. ] (]) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. ] (]) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::None of this is relevant. We follow sources and ]. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. ]] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I've continued to post where? ] ] 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? ] ] 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? ]] 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::@] The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have ], and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -] (]) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. ] ] 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -] (]) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? ] ] 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::@] This one. -] (]) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::@] I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. ] ] 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::@] Easiest way to defuse this is to post a '''bolded''' and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -] (]) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" ] ] 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. ]] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			* Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? ] (]) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. ] ] 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? ] (]) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. ] ] 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? ] (]) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 ] ] 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. ] (]) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. ] ] 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around ] (]) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::@] no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? ] ] 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::Because of edits like this . ] (]) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? ] ] 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? ] (]) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::::Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? ] ] 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::::We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. ] (]) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::::::I ''answered'' a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. ] ] 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::::::Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. ] (]) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::::::::I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. ] ] 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::::::::In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. ] (]) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. ] (]) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Note''' I believe this proposal has been discussed to death. The discussion has gone off-topic, even off-off-topic. I believe we need input from a closing admin. For what it's worth, there are 13 support votes for a topic ban (of at least 6 months duration) for YK in South Asian history-related topics. There are 4 oppose votes. Regards, ]] 00:52, 3 April 2012 (UTC) PS I had not counted my own vote as it had become inconspicuous as a result of by Yogesh Khandke. Now restored. ]] 07:00, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	::Fine. When WP decides to block him indefinitely, let us know and we'll get to work on the ] article. As one of the two greatest authors in English literature, his article should be an FA, but it's not even a good article, and is likely to remain that way as long as YK is allowed to edit it. ] (]) 12:50, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	* <s>'''Oppose''': Yogesh Khandke brings excellent, A grade content to Misplaced Pages that no one else is either capable of bringing, moslty because they are blinded by their POV. Dickens' racism towards Indians is an excellent example of this. Thanks to Yogesh Khandke, we now have a better article on ] which a potential 1.3 billion Indians, most of whom have never ever heard of Dickens will find interesting to read. This cabal mentioned above almost has an orwellian zeal to maintain "NPOV" which makes it impossible for them to see the slightest criticism of their British heroes. Unfortunately, almost every British hero in colonial affairs (and sometimes outside of colonial affairs) between 1818 and 1947 is by definition a villan in Indian eyes. Incidentally Saravask, the person pushing for this ban, has pigeonholed people into a category of people who should be '''killed off'''. ] He tells his buddies that these people should be hunted down by the FBI or the CIA or the MI5 and be killed. The Misplaced Pages system/ANI is setup in a way that some people will never get fair treatment. In many ways it is not too dissimilar from the British colonial government and their system of justice which let off ] largely unpunished for the most heinous crime in Indian history. Here's that relevant video from one of the most historically accurate films - Gandhi. </s>] (]) 09:40, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	:*Note: Bob1781 appears possibly to be an SPA. - ] (]) 11:08, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	::As of 11:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC) a single edit account: {{user|Bob1781}} ]] 11:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	::: Note: Bob1781 has been blocked as a checkuser-confirmed sock of Yogesh Khandke. ] ] 11:02, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::Why do you guys behave like this? If someone complaints against you on ANI you shout its "content dispute" and ask to close the discussion and take it somewhere else. Then one of you just blocks the editor who is complaining by giving some excuse of edit war so then he cant respond to the ANI thread. Someone (me) proposes that disambiguation pages related to Ganga should be changed and you . When still explained further you close the discussion . Someone like YK says something and you ppl always ignore it because you have had fights with him before. Now some unknown Bob1781 comes and posts something what you have to say is he is a Sock, probably of YK. But what are all these ppl saying? Oh lets trash them! Either they are at wrong place or rude or single purpose accounts. Its like some professor dumbing someone's journal because the page margins are not right! §§] (]) 05:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			:Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway.] ] 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Regretful Support''' Though none of the Dickens' editors seem innocent, alas. Misplaced Pages is ill-served by some of the related clearly unsourced or improperly sourced POV pushing zeal evinced. I also note this !vote is elicited by the post above implying that it is somehow improper to see NPOV as being a proper goal, when it is one of the "pilllars" of Misplaced Pages. I would suggest that he be topic banned from colonialism and racism articles broadly construed, per what I read above. I think he would benefit, moreover, from studying the racialism in the Indian literature to gain some historical perspective on the history of racism in that sub-continent. Cheers. ] (]) 11:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			:I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it.]] 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Support'''. This user is incorrigible, tendentious, and still ], after multiple trips to this board. In this very discussion, he is accusing others of 'hanging' him, attacking him 'with knives', and of wanting a 'submissive, fawning Indian', when even other Indian editors have blasted his inability to properly weigh views and to compromise. He has wasted the time of dozens of productive editors around Dickens and other hot-button Indian nationalist topics. His time here has long passed. ] (]) 16:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			::@] I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. ] ] 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	----
			:::Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary ], broadly construed, as in effect.]] 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:''The discussion above is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive bottom --></div>
			::::@] yes, that's correct. ] ] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			* I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about ] in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? ] ] 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::@] You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me ''in the English Misplaced Pages?'' ] ] 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::@] Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? ] ] 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			Would recommend that Darwin ''walk away'' from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. ] (]) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	== National Autism Society ==
			;Clarification
	{{archive top|1=As ] point out, this request is groundless; no block is going to be made. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)}}
			*Hello @] - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in ], to the point of eventually here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much.
	I request a block on the National Autism Society (NAS) IP address for a period of one week (as agreed with the society's computer manager). The address is 217.204.11.194.
			*As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ], which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that.
			*The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here.
			*Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on ] and ] or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan.
			*And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. ] ] 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			===Proposed Community Sanctions===
	The society's network is open to both staff and to patients. Recently there have been a significant amount of "reordering" of junction numbers on various British motorways (see contributions page at . I telephoned to the society's computer manager and both he and I are of the opinion that these changes are being carried out by a patient who is suffering from autism (and who therefore will not respond to normal reasoning). The manager quite reasonably challenged me to "prove" my assertion that the NAS network was the "guilty" party and after I led him through the Misplaced Pages audit trail, he proved very cooperativce. He is quite happy that there be a one week block on the IP address so that the patient concerned will get bored trying to make any changes. A study of the changes associated with that address suggest that few changes, if any, are appropriate to Misplaced Pages's aims and therefore neither Misplaced Pages nor the society will be harmed. ] (]) 19:58, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
			I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this.
			'''Proposed''' DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to ] broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:What might work better is if the Society's IP address(es) are indefinitely soft-blocked, thus allowing those with accounts to continue to edit while avoiding vandalism from unregistered users. IIRC, this has been done before for other institutions, particularly schools. However, the technical officer/manager/whoever you're talking to should probably email such a request to info-en{{@}}wikimedia.org or functionaries-en{{@}}lists.wikimedia.org from an official email address, so if any questions arise from the IP we can be confident in saying "ask your manager, they're the ones who requested the block." ] <small>]</small><sup>(]/]/])</sup> 21:34, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	: Wait a second, you called them? Whoa there Nelly, let's back the truck up a little bit here (]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 09:51, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
			*:I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -] (]) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	*Support Hersfold's suggestion of an indef soft block. That way genuine editors can continue editing from that IP, and anyone minded to engage in vandalism can be dealt with individually. --] <small>] • (])</small> 15:11, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. ''PS'' - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. ] (]) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	::I'm finding this somewhat disquieting. As far as I can tell, the National Autistic (sic) Society doesn't have "patients" and would not use such terms as "suffering from autism". It does provide community and residential services for people with autism. There may well be a range of constructive and respected Misplaced Pages editors among its service users. I can't see that it's constructive to deter any future such editors by confronting them with an indefinite soft-block placed because of a batch of edits of motorway junction numbers made in late March 2012. ] (]) 17:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
	:::If a soft block comes with an automatic notice something along the lines of "You must create an account to edit from this address" if someone tries to edit, then I can't see it being a problem. (And yes, I'm an Autie, too!) ] (]) 20:35, 31 March 2012 (UTC)		*:Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support topic ban and IBAN''', both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. ]] 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::It's certain, I'm sure, that there must be Misplaced Pages veterans amongst the membership of the National Autistic Society. After all, to paraphrase ], without aspies, trannies and queers, there is no Misplaced Pages. :) --] ] 04:28, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. Just read through the above and ''good grief''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::::After examining some edits, I'd oppose any action until Martinvl can demonstrate that this editing is actually vandalism. This fundamental prerequisite step has been overlooked. 217.204.11.194 stands accused of editing wikipedia. <span style="text-shadow:#c5C3e3 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em;">]</span>] 23:23, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
			*I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. ] (]) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::::I'd also like to see Martinvl establish that "a patient who is suffering from autism ... therefore will not respond to normal reasoning", a presumption which might explain why after warning the user twice Martinvl called the NAS to discuss how the user could be blocked. ] (]) 19:32, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	:Do we not have any guidelines discouraging users from sleuthing/contacting people on their own? I would be surprised if this has not been discussed within the context of schools.. I also strongly object to the sweeping characterization of all people on the autistic spectrum as suffering people who cannot behave nor respond to anything. ] (]) 16:57, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	:Although autism varies widely in severity, I agree that the phone call in question is either being misrepresented or invented, as explained by NebY. NAS is not a hospital and the people who work there are, for the most part, not autistic; moreover, most autistic people capable of editing Misplaced Pages are also quite capable of having a conversation about their actions. Talking about an indef soft block of the entire NAS in response to unproven vandalism by a single IP is premature, and is nothing like the persistent vandalism by many people that we see from a typical high school. ] 09:51, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			:Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. ] (]) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	== Edit warring on several articles ==
			:::That's actually a fair point. -] (]) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent ] impulse. ] (]) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::@] You have been misjudging me - It was , actually, if it's worth anything. ] ] 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the ] area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::@] OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). ] ] 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::If they weren't before they are now... ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Ok, to be clear, I '''oppose''' a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. ] (]) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I agree. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:@] I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. ] ] 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. ] (]) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::@] And those were the only ones, and I immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to . You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. ] ] 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::@] I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? ] ] 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. ] (]) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::@] I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽‍♂️ ] ] 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? ] (]) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::@] Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? ] ] 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. ] (]) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::@] There was not any "lie", please stop ]. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". ] ] 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. ] (]) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::Darwin has a long history of editing in ] albeit generally less controversially. . ] (]) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::@] That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. ] ] 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::::DarwIn ] covers gender ''and'' sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. ] (]) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::::@] Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. ] ] 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' per Bushranger. ] ] 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose'''. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. ] (]) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose''' per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. ] ] 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::{{Ping|Pppery}} days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. ] (]) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. ] (]) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:@] What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? ] ] 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::{{replyto|DarwIn}} Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times ], ], ], ], ], ]. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. ] (]) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like ]. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here.] ] 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. ] (]) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. ] ] 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::], I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup>
			*:::::::{{Ping|Liz}} Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that.] ] 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::{{reply|DarwIn}} you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. ] (]) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. ] (]) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:* '''Support''' - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it.
			:]] 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:* '''Oppose''' - Per GoodDay and Springee. ] (]) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> <small>(he/him; ])</small></span> 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.] (]) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of ] may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer ]. ] (]) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			* <s>'''Support''' TBAN/IBAN</s> '''Weak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN''' - ] suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate ] behavior. ] (]) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
	{{anchor|Edit warring and disruptive editing on Philadelphia Water Department, Seamus (dog), hydraulic fracturing, and hydraulic fracturing in the United States. Could an administrator please view?}}
			::This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.] (]) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. ] (]) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--] (]) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. ] (]) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::"A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. ]] 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. ] (]) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. ]] 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::OK boomer. ] (]) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. ]] 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.] (]) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP ] - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. ] (]) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. ] (]) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::{{ec}} NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of ], and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -] (]) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN.
			:::sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. ] (]) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. ] (]) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour ''there would be no mention of WP:NPA''. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture ''continues'' to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. ] (]) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:* '''Oppose''' as unnecessary given the commitments already given. ]] 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{hat|1=Let's not. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). <small>Edited to include edit conflict comment. ] (]) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC)</small>}}
			::::I am assuming you haven't spent much time in places ] where religious belief and persons of faith are not infrequently and quite openly subject to ridicule. Racism is a subject upon which society has happily come to more or less full agreement. Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other. I shall refrain from further comment out of deference to WP:FORUM. -] (]) 21:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Fringe ideas get ridiculed at FTN regardless of whether or not they are religious... That so many fringe views are also religious is more a result of the supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual being inherently fringe than any problem with FTN. Religion which is rational and explainable isn't religion any more after all. ] (]) 21:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Thank you for affirming my point. -] (]) 21:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Your point was that "Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other." Right? Like for example the ] or is that not the side you were thinking of? ] (]) 22:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::No. I was thinking of people who regularly insult and ridicule religious belief and those who hold to it. Something which based on your comment, does not seem to be a source of concern to you. That said, this discussion is veering deep into WP:FORUM territory and I am going to move on. Have a good day. -] (]) 22:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::I don't think I've ever seen any of those people suggest that trans people are demons, or did you mean demonize in a way other than literally saying that the other side is demonic/satan's minions? Becuase that would be highly ironic... ] (]) 22:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::I am reaching the uncomfortable conclusion that you are attempting to be deliberately offensive. And for the record, you are succeeding. Good day. -] (]) 22:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::You weren't aware that a cornerstone of the gender controversy was religious conservatives resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other? Because that is well documented in reliable sources. I don't think you're the one who is supposed to be offended here, you're the one saying what appear to be extremely offensive things and are being asked to clarify what you meant. ] (]) 22:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::{{ec}} I think a significant point here is that while we may tolerate some degree of forumish and offensive comment about gender or race or religions from editors when they are restricted to largely abstract comment or even when they reference other editors, it's far more of a problem when the editors make offensive accusations about living persons especially when these are completely unrelated to any discussion about how to cover something (noting that the editor continued to make the comment even after they had noted how the English wikipedia treats issues). So for example, if someone says a specific religious figure is delusion or lying in relation to how we treat their testimony that might barely be acceptable. When someone just comes out and says it repeatedly for no reason, that's far more of a problem. Especially if the figure is someone barely notable and not notable (as was the case here for one of the individuals each). ] (]) 22:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{hab}}
			{{hat|1=This ''is'' affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			*'''Comment''' This is definitely not the ideal place to discuss the subject since the whole problem originated with pt.wiki, but since the editor came here asking for help (for the right reasons or not), I will draw attention to the case of the admin accused of transphobia. This is not the first time that DarwIn has been singled out due to his comments on the subject (he has already given several examples of this here), but there is an where the editor has already been criticized for making such comments. There, they were also celebrating Skyshifter's ban (DarwIn commented something like "as a man he was 100%, after transitioning he became unbearable" to refer to her). As much as they try not to link the group to the project, to use this chat you need to associate your Misplaced Pages credentials, so I am concerned that pt.wiki admins could be seen spreading speeches against minorities in an official space of the project, since Misplaced Pages is the target of attacks for investing in equity and diversity. In addition to this comment, the admin was also extremely rude and crude towards a ].
			:Again, this is not the ideal place to comment on these issues, but I suggest that the case be submitted to Wikimedia if any intervention or something more incisive is necessary. The local community can accuse me of anything for writing these words, but I am concerned about the escalation of editorial harassment within that space.
	<small>''( Section titles here must not be prejudicially phrased. Converted heading to neutral, w/ anchor to original. &nbsp;–&nbsp;<font face="Cambria">] (])</font> 10:07, 1 April 2012 (UTC) )''</small>
			:PS: The editor was mocking this discussion in the Telegram group while I was writing this. ] (]) 01:57, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	I am reposting this because it was archived before it was resolved. There is a user, Arzel, who has a pattern of deleting sourced content over and over with weak arguments. Most of the deletes appear WP:IDONTLIKEIT. He has contributed very little content (maybe a comment or two), and that content poorly sourced (didn't bother to include a full reference description). A few editors have confronted him about the deletions, and discussed it at length, including myself, but without much result. He has been most disruptive on the hydraulic fracturing pages, but recently followed me to another page I was working on. Discussions of behavior can be found on Talk:Hydraulic_fracturing and Talk:Hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_States. The page he followed me to was Philadelphia Water Department. I had warned him a while back and just let him know that I was reporting him for disruptive editing, though I didn't use a tag. I thought he had calmed down last week, but he's back, and wasting everyone's time. Smm201`0 (talk) 23:52, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
			::Came back after a month with no edits for this? It's quite clear Jardel is taking something personal with DarwIn here. Or he doesn't have anything to do at the moment. And he didn't have such great writing and narrative in his mother tongue, now is writing perfect, well written English. That gets stranger considering he's partially blocked in ptwiki for some beefing with other editors (] in portuguese)... Quite strange, to say the least. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	:The editor Smm201'0 seems to think that it is his/Her duty to destroy the Hydraulic Fracking industry by inserting every negative story or complaint about the industry into related articles. He/She then added unrelated fracking information into the Philadelphis Water Department article here. Is it sourced? Sure, does it have anything to do with the Philadelphis Water Departtment? No. The previous edit follows a clear WP:COAT model. The article is about the PWD, and there have been some water quality issues, he/she then adds in a bunch of information unrelated to the PWD talking about Hydraulic Fracking because of concerns regarding Fracking and ground water. Use of Misplaced Pages for environmental activism should not be tollerated. Arzel (talk) 00:48, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			:::And yes, by "quite strange" I am talking about maybe ]. Nobody comes after a month without edits (that was preeceded by some other months before some 5-ish edits), to make an "accusation" based on unfounded arguments, especially after being blocked precisely for beefing and attacking other members of the community in his homewiki. Such a hypocrisy, a user banned for beefing accusating another user of attacks and using the word "transphobia" so vaguely. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	::The editor also put most (maybe the whole thing) of this article into the Hydraulic fracking article and has yet to adress why the all of the anti-fracking information needs to be so many places. Arzel (talk) 01:02, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			::::As I expected, the group participants started making accusations against me (that's why Eduardo G. appeared in this discussion) and wanted to insinuate that Skyshifter is writing this text, perhaps wanting to provoke some kind of retaliation later. First, I appreciate the compliments on my writing, which was 100% done by Google Translate; I think Google's engineering is to be congratulated. Second, I'm only here on this page because I noticed the links to this discussion in the Telegram group itself and decided to contribute with what I've been reading for a long time with great disgust. I didn't need to bring much, Darwin himself made a point of making abject comments in this discussion, but if you want, I can bring some screenshots of what they were talking about in the group. Third, I did go 1 month without editing here because my focus is not on en.wiki but on pt.wiki, where I make regular edits. I find it strange that you entered this discussion without refuting any of the arguments above, thinking that bringing up my tarnished "reputation" changes everything that was written by me or in the group. I believe it must be embarrassing to participate in a group where they are celebrating the sanctions that Skyshifter will suffer (thinking that place is a "private club") while at the same time you from the "public side" to the same editor, simulating virtue. In any case, my goal here is only to reinforce that there is indeed materiality in what Skyshifter said with more evidence and once again I recommend that the discussion be evaluated by the Wikimedia team knowing that attitudes that demonstrate prejudice against minorities go against the project's investments in equity, diversity and equality. ] (]) 03:52, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::I have had similiar problems with Arzel. If you look at the page Talk: Seamus (dog), editors have repeatedly asked Arzel not to remove infomation that is relevant and sourced to mainstream media sites. We have tried to talk to Arzel, but he continues to remove material that his doesn't like.Debbie W. 15:22, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
			:::::I will not pursue any retaliation. I'm just stating what I know of this case, and I even supported Sky when the edits were being made. People are celebrating because all of this discussion was brought to even another wiki by her. But I understand you might've written this text, and will not take the subject further. If anybody needs anything, please read the message below. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::Yes, it does look like a similar issue. Also, to clarify a remark above, the environmental page was split off from HF without discussion, so I brought it back and started a discussion. There were also other attempts to remove negative environmental info from HF page. I agreed to condense the environmental info on the main page and have been working at that. Disruptions delay that work.Smm201`0 (talk) 17:16, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
	::::Arzel is continuing to make disruptive edits on the Philadelphia Water Department page and is leaving messages at my talk page rather than discussing the article on its own talk page.] (]) 12:23, 31 March 2012 (UTC)		::::::So, I don't disagree with your argument about the sanctions she's passing on the other project, unfortunately. As for "not pursue any retaliation", I don't think that's what you mean by the phrase "4 successful DBs in a row is not for everyone." directed at me. ] (]) 04:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::@] You're wrong, twice. First, it wasn't me saying that. It was NCC-1701, and my user in TG is Edu. And at no point did I agree with NCC's messages. And secondly, the "four DBs in a row" wasn't in anyway directed at you. It was directed to Bageense, who opened 4 block discussions in the last 2 or 3 days and all of them were successfull. You are distorting the messages to condone your erroneous narrative. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	{{od}} Completely uninvolved and disinterested party checking in. The issue appears to be content driven and may require either an expert to intervene or having a RFC devoted to individual articles. This entire spat brings to mind the directive found at the bottom of the page: "If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here." FWiW ] (]) 14:25, 1 April 2012 (UTC).
			::::::::Well, if I am "distorting messages" to "tolerate" my narrative, anyone who wants to evaluate can join the group and read the messages posted there or see the pt.wiki discussion against the Projeto Mais Teoria da História na Wiki and talk to its ] to see what their opinion is on the matter. I may not be a perfect person, but what I see with great displeasure (coming from those who are "in charge of the gears") is not positive for the project. ] (]) 04:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::::The editor SMM201'0 seems to think that the removal of sourced Original Research and Synthesis of material is disruptive. I have asked the editor what the "Haliburton Rule" regarding Hydraulic Fracking has to do with the Philidelphia Water Department, but the editor has yet to respond how it is related. None of the sources he is using mention the PWD. There is some concern that HF may be responsible for some issues of water quality in Philadelphia, but that is no reason to proceed to lay out a lengthy argument against HF within the PWD article. It follows a clear ] and ] pattern. Present the arguement and then go off on an unrelated tangent that has no sourced connection to the PWD. The editor seems to have a strong feeling regarding HF and has been editing from what appears to be an activist approach in order to present HF in as negative of a light as possible violating several WP policies. ] (]) 03:36, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
			:::::::::Joining the group the community would then have no doubts about your intents and distortion of facts. You didn't deny the two things I said above — you know I'm right, you can't bend the facts this much. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Arzel deleted large sections of text and references again today. I would welcome administrator input. Arzel has wanted to discuss the article on my talk page rather than the article's talk page. I have answered on the article's talk page. Arzel is also being disruptive on the HF pages, see their talk pages as well.] (]) 13:39, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::I have put in a request for comment regarding the PWD page. There is a larger pattern, however.] (]) 15:14, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
	I have no strong opinion on other articles, but regarding ], Smm201, your homework assignment is to read and understand ]. Hydraulic fracturing has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the article; even the mention of a minor water quality issue is of questionable notability, but I have left it in for now as a compromise. A mild scolding to both sides for edit warring, and if you don't like what I've done, take it up with me ]. -<b>]<sup>(])</sup></b> 07:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	:Thanks for taking the time to review the article on the Philadelphia Water Department. The water quality issue regarding iodine-131 is a big deal in Philadelphia. A lot of people are affected by the water quality. Because of the politics involved, the PADEP and EPA's reports are not always consistent. EPA recently took over the investigation. WP is one place people can read info from the EPA, PADEP, and other sources and come to their own conclusion. The problem now is that the article is now inaccurate. Even if you and Arzel didn't like what the page said, every fact was well documented. The EPA reported levels above the acceptable level several times from 2007 to 2011, and said that Philadelphia's levels were among the highest in the US. The Water Department report actually talks about the Safe Drinking Water Act and says the iodine-131 is coming from effluent from treatment plants. Thyroid cancer patient urine has been suggested as an explanation, but they are still trying to pin the source down. The article does not accurately state the uses of iodine-131. I can understand wanting to punish me for edit warring and asking for intervention...but you are also making the article inaccurate. But I asked for that I suppose. Again, thanks for taking the trouble. ] (]) 16:31, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	::There is nothing inaccurate about the article as it stands now. It is properly sourced, and all statements (in the water quality section, I have not vetted other sections) are ]. I can not say the same for the previous version of the page, which was in gross violation of ].-<b>]<sup>(])</sup></b> 16:44, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::Verifiability was not an issue on this page. All statements had RS. The page seems to have gone from alleged synthesis to censorship. Not sure that's an improvement.] (]) 20:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::You obviously have not completed your homework assignment. Do you actually understand what we mean when we say you are using ] and ]? Because you are undeniably violating these policies/guidelines. An article should cover a subject, not serve as a soapbox for independent conclusions critical of something only (extremely) tangentially related.-<b>]<sup>(])</sup></b> 20:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Honest...I did my required reading. Really. A very early draft might have toed the line, but at this point it was statements and refs. I had cut down on the verbiage too to balance the focus. The PWD itself had posted information about these issues and discussed them on their web site, including the Safe Drinking Water Act, the limits of what it did and didn't know about the origin of the iodine-131, and a warning about iodine-131 levels because they were periodically over the EPA limit. The PWD has been holding public meetings about it, and it is getting news coverage (see deleted refs). The Delaware River Commission has gotten involved. But...thanks again for taking the time to comment, even if we disagree.] (]) 21:21, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::"We," eh? You two know each other? I was wondering why a neutral party would take such drastic action as deleting most of the content of a page, and call it a compromise. It didn't make sense.] (]) 00:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC) I'm going to revert the deletion to allow others to more easily read what's there and comment. I'll also check again to make sure each statement is well sourced. Let's allow a consensus to emerge.] (]) 00:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::I don't know Runningonbrains, so I am not sure where you are comming to that assumption. However, it is clear that other agree with my view that you are violating Synth and continue to do so on that article. ] (]) 00:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::], ]<sup>(])</sup></b> was using the ], referring to all Wikepedians. It's a common thing when referring people to our (in the collective sense) policies and guidelines. &mdash; <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			'''As a ptwiki user''' that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage ()/], thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the ] <small>(in portuguese)</small>. The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it.
	Your actions are unacceptable, and I have reverted your unilateral re-addition of material. I have never had prior interaction with Arzel of which I am immediately aware, and I called it a compromise because in my honest opinion the minor water quality issue does not deserve mention at all in this article.
			This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone.
	The problem is not that your text is not sourced, as I have stated clearly above. Since you are not capable of seeing the flaws in your own writing on your own, allow me to point-by-point go through your material to point out all the flaws:
			I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my ] (). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*''In April 2011, Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) found elevated iodine-131 levels in Philadelphia's drinking water.'' Nothing wrong here; a statement of fact about the subject of the article.
	*''In response to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) findings, the Philadelphia Water Department posted a notice that Iodine-131 had been found in the water supply.'' Repetitive, probably unnecessary to the article.
	*''Iodine-131 is associated with the treatment of thyroid cancer, nuclear energy, and is a popular radioactive tracer used to determine the location of fractures created by hydraulic fracturing, '' We have already hit a serious problem. Here you have taken a sourced statement of fact ("Iodine was found in the drinking water") and modified it with another sourced fact ("Iodine is used in hydraulic fracturing") to reach an implied conclusion ("The iodine found in the water was a result of hydraulic fracturing"), a statement which is not supported by any source. This is the definition, to the letter, of ].
	*''The National Cancer Institute has reported that children exposed to iodine-131 may have an increased risk of thyroid cancer. '' Another blatant violation of ]; you have now attempted to imply that the iodine in the water '''in this specific circumstance''' may be dangerous, a fact which is not supported by any source.
	*''Initially the Philadelphia Water department attributed the presence of Iodine-131 to nuclear energy production and the March 2011 Japanese nuclear incident (Fukushima Nuclear Incident). Iodine-131 was later found in the Wissahickon Creek, and at several sewage treatment plants along the creek near Philadelphia in late July 2011, after the fallout from the Japanese incident would have decayed. Iodine-131 had been found in several Philadelphia drinking water samples before. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) records showed that Philadelphia's iodine-131 levels were the highest in the last decade in the set of those measured at 59 locations across the United States.'' All of this can be succinctly summed up in the way I have in the article: "Originally this was suspected to be related to the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster, but it was later determined to be due to patients undergoing iodine therapy for thyroid cancer."
	*''EPA records show readings above the acceptable limit of 3 pCi were recorded at Queens Lane Water Treatment Plant on three occasions and Belmont Water Treatment Plant on four occasions since October 2007. '' This is specifically contradicted by : "The EPA's drinking water standard is three picocuries per liter - '''''but only over a long-term average''''' . A single sample that was higher would not constitute an excess."
	*''Readings at Baxter Water Treatment Plant were lower. '' Nothing specifically wrong with this sentence, but it becomes unnecessary with other offending material cut out.
	*''The EPA also found elevated levels of Iodine-131 in the water discharged from water treatment plants in nearby Ambler and Abington in April 2011.'' These places are not Philadelphia, so I don't see how this is relevant.
	*''The EPA is concerned about radionuclide levels in drinking water. In Pennsylvania, much of this wastewater from hydraulic fracturing operations is processed by public sewage treatment plants which are not designed to remove the natural or man-made radioactive components of this waste, which is often released into major rivers. '' I suppose that the EPA is "concerned with radionuclide levels in drinking water" could be inferred from the letter cited below, and I suppose we could infer that they were concerned about Philadelphia's water specifically, but on Misplaced Pages we are not allowed to assume.
	*''Some are concerned that this provides the opportunity for radioactive waste to enter public water supplies.'' "Some" is a ], and the source has nothing to do with Philadelphia; another example of a ] violation.
	*''In March 2011 the EPA asked the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection (PDEP) to require "community water systems (CWSs) near publicly owned treatment works (POTWs) and centralized wastewater treatment (CWT) facilities receiving Marcellus Shale wastewater to conduct sampling immediately for radionuclides." They note that "in previous monitoring, radionuclides were not detected or were detected at levels less than one-half of maximum contaminant levels," but that "the CWS have not sampled after the introduction of Marcellus Shale operations." The EPA letter adds that "Discharges from these operations could increase radionuclide levels substantially."'' Sourced, but why is this relevant? This is all from a letter to the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection, not addressed to the Philadelphia Water Department, and certainly not in relation to the above-mentioned levels of iodine. ] rears its ugly head again.
	*''In 2011, the US Environmental Protection Agency, Pennsylvania’s Department of Environmental Protection and the Philadelphia Water Department were working together to test surface water (rivers and streams) and discharge from water treatment plants. By June 2011, the EPA had ruled out hospital sources and the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster as causes and were still trying to identify the source. In July 2011 and March 2012 the Philadelphia Water Department attributed the elevated levels to thyroid cancer patients' urine because it was found in wastewater plant effluent.'' Again, neatly summed up by the sentence I left in the article, avoiding unnecessarily verbose step-by-step language.
	*''The Philadelphia Water Department reports that Philadelphia's drinking water meets the standards set by the Safe Drinking Water Act. '' This is unsourced, but true and verifiable, as it is covered in the source I mentioned above. You have neatly used this sentence to build up the false premise that you are still talking about the Philadelphia Water Department, as is immediately apparent in the next sentence...
	*''The EPA and the state authorities generally have the authority "to regulate discharge of produced waters from hydraulic operations" (EPA, 2011) under the Clean Water Act, which is regulated by the National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) permit program.'' Instantly back to facts unrelated to Philadelphia. You are attempting to ] the statement that the iodine found in Philadelphia's drinking water had anything to do with hydraulic fracturing, which, I reiterate, is not found in any reliable source.
	*''Although this waste is regulated, oil and gas exploration and production (E&P) wastes are exempt from Federal Hazardous Waste Regulations under Subtitle C of the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act (RCRA). Wastewater from hydraulic fracturing contains toxins such as total dissolved solids (TDS), metals, and radionuclides. '' Straying even further from the topic at hand...
	*''Companies are not required to provide the names of chemicals in "proprietary" formulas, so the chemical lists provided on company web sites are incomplete and the substances are not monitored by EPA. Congress has been urged to repeal the 2005 regulatory exemption ("Halliburton Loophole") under the Energy Policy Act of 2005 by supporting The FRAC Act, but has so far refused. The oil and gas industry contributes heavily to campaign funds.] The FRAC Act would eliminate the exemption and might allow producing wells to be reclassified as injection wells placing them under federal jurisdiction in states without approved UIC programs. The FRAC Act was re-introduced in both houses of the 112th United States Congress. In the Senate, Sen. Bob Casey (D-PA) introduced S. 587 on March 15, 2011. In the House, Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO) introduced H.R. 1084 on March 24, 2011.As of March 2012 Congress had not yet passed either of The FRAC Act bills'' We are now in the complete opposite direction of an article describing ]. This is the most blatant violation of ] I have ever seen an author try to defend. There are exactly zero sources that relate any of this to Philadelphia, its water, or the specific incident this whole section started off with.
	*''On March 28, 2012, the Philadelphia Water Department reported that during the period between April 2011 and February 2012, iodine-131 levels were lower in the Queen's Lane (from graph, average about .5 pCi; highest about 1.5 pCi) and Belmont facilities (average about .4 pCi; maximum about 1.4 pCi). No iodine-131 was detected at the Baxter facility.'' You clearly do not understand what a ] is, and so you have introduced statements that are not supported by the linked source.
	*''The report notes that wastewater plant effluent has been confirmed as one source of the iodine-131; other potential pathways have not been confirmed. '' The article on ] should not be detailing minute details of a single minor water contamination incident, likely one of many that have occurred over the years.
	*''The report also said that there have been periodic elevations of iodine-131 in the Wissahickon Creek that decrease over time and do not affect drinking water.'' "Do not affect drinking water", so again, why is this in the article?
	*''Iodine-131 has was also detected in the Schuylkill River during this period, especially when the river is low. The amounts found in the river and creek were not specified.'' You have now included almost the entire text of the linked slide show, without good reason.
	*''No contaminant levels have been posted on the EPA web site since April 2011.'' Okay, and neither have they been posted to the Harlem Globetrotters web site. Sorry if I seem a bit snarky, but at this point...I mean, come on. How can you not see how ridiculous it is to include these minute details, and pretend that they are in the article for any reason other than to prejudice the reader towards your point of view that there is something in the water from hydraulic fracturing.
	*''The Philadelphia Water Department plans to upgrade its water treatment facilities and water management systems to better deal with the waste water. The water department plans to raise funds for the project by increasing Philadelphia residents' water and sewer rates over the next four years.'' Finally, the very last sentence actually has something relevant, but I don't see that a statement that water treatment is undergoing upgrades is notable enough for the Misplaced Pages article. No doubt every water department in every American city has upgraded their facilities at one time or another; you are using this sourced statement to stealthily imply that it is being done because of your above assertions of pollution due to hydraulic fracturing.
			JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community . And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. ] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	Your entire textual rant, sourced or not, synth or not, was hung on the ] of the article under the false premise of describing the subject of the article (which, I remind you, is ]). This is different from a "criticism" or "controversy" section of an article; you are not criticizing the subject, you are criticizing ], and doing so without any sources that directly relate to the subject of the article.
			:It is pretty clear thay the intents of Jardel here are disruptive. Your comment hopefully leaves no doubt to the community. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:53, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:As I said above, I am not a perfect person. I may have used foul language to address some editors in a moment of anger, but I felt vulnerable and hurt by editors I held in high regard, and I apologize for what I wrote in the past. Likewise, I do not think it is right that a social channel that is reported as "linked to Misplaced Pages" is being used as a bar where people can say whatever they want, especially when it comes to prejudiced comments against minorities. At no time did I label all of them, only one of them demonstrated that she was doing so. If I happen to receive any sanction for this discussion, and knowing that bringing issues from pt.wiki here is not ideal, I will receive it for doing the right thing, because I want something to change for the better in a project that I have dedicated so much time to contributing to. I may be prevented from editing on Misplaced Pages, but if what I bring here helps to change something, I will be happy. ] (]) 05:01, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{hab}}
			:] - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? ]&nbsp;] 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. ] (]) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::@] The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, . Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. ] (]) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. ] (]) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Supporting both IBAN and TBAN'''. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--] ] 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. ] (]) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.] (]) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. ] (]) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.] (]) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain.
			:::::concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.] (]) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.] (]) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. ] (]) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Children cannot consent, their parents can. ]&nbsp;]<sup>]</sup> 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--] (]) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? ] (]) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--] (]) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. ] (]) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support TBAN''', no comment on IBAN. . ]&nbsp;]<sup>]</sup> 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- ] - <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose any sanctions''' I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate ] on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. ] (]) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support TBAN''', indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this ] type editing, whether it is attempting to ] or simply ] discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. ] (]) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. ] (]) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' ''Skyshifter'', if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to descelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. ''']]''' 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite () to boot. ] (]) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY.
			:<br>
			:Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am.
			:<br>
			:Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages.
			:<br>
			:'''I support''' the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community.
			:<br>
			:'''I oppose''' with the IP-ban because if anything this '''SHOULD’VE''' ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing.
			:<br> ] (]) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. ] (]) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents.
			:::NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent.
			:::Cheers, <br> ] (]) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::This reply reminded me of the essay ]. ] (]) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. ] (]) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. ] (]) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at ] accusing me of coming to their talk page to "{{tq|further troll me with this nonsense warning}}". '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --] (]) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== ] taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge. ===
	Your assertion that the material needs to be on the page to develop consensus is absurd. All previous versions of every page are visible in the page history.
			{{hat|1=100% affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{atop|result=This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this ]s on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			On the 29th of December, ] started an AN/I based on a claim that ], a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination . AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate.
			She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn.
	In conclusion, the material does not belong on the page, and you will be blocked for ] if you re-add it again.
			But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log.
	Sincerely,
			This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage ( and in ]), ] over other users and using ] and ] to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it ], with all the proofs). The ] taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever.
	<s>Summer Glau</s> - <b>]<sup>(])</sup></b> 02:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:I concur - those are egrerious and, frankly, ridiculous violations of ] and ]. Smm201`0, do not re-add these to the article, as they are in utter violation of Misplaced Pages's policies, guidelines, and values - as noted, you will be blocked if you do so. It's up you to make the case to have these '''included''' (of which there is no case, but you're welcome to discuss why you think there is), not for others to argue against them. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 06:01, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::Thanks for the feedback. This water quality issue is ongoing in Philly, not a single event. I've tried to incorporate a lot of your feedback. Nobody can see the revisions I've made unless I post it somewhere, so at another editor's suggestion, I've put it on the talk page.] (]) 13:56, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::As pointed out earlier, everyone '''can''' see your revisions simply by going to the History tab of the article. Posting it to the Talk page was unnecessary. &mdash; <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 14:06, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::No, they can't see revisions made in response to runningonbrains comments because they were done after the last time I reinserted the material. They have never been on the PWD page.] (]) 16:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::... wait, what? Are you talking about ''further'' changes, beyond the ones that were posted above? &mdash; <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::I'm trying to bring the content into compliance with Misplaced Pages policies in a way that allows me to get feedback from other editors, but don't worry, I didn't reinsert it in the article. I had not had a chance to edit in response to runningonbrains list of comments before it was deleted. Had it been left on the page, I could have revised it there.] (]) 19:09, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::As I mentioned on the talk page there, even your revised text would make the article into a ]-infested ]. ]. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::Right, you didn't re-insert it. That was my point earlier about what you had ''previously'' inserted already being in the article history. That said, Bushranger is right, the points made above are clear: the majority of what you want added has no place in the article. It's not a matter of "bringing it into compliance," as it is non-compliant by its very nature. &mdash; <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 23:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::I still respectfully disagree about the content being synthesis and coat rack because the PWD itself discusses the same topics at length on its own web site, though not with the RS that Misplaced Pages requires and I added. I agree that the original rendition was too verbose and wasn't well focused. But this kinda of discussion really belongs on a talk page and not here. I'm relative new at this and only came here for help with disruptive editing. Won't ask for help again. End of story.] (]) 03:29, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::The United States government talks about a lot of things on their websites, but it doesn't make it valid for inclusion on ]. That said, perhaps an article on ] might be a worthy subject? - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 03:42, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	{{od}}I nearly suggested that in the PWD talk because there are several RS-compliant sources that discuss groundwater issues that Smm is trying to use in a coatrack manner in the PWD article. I am, however, afraid that such a page would develop into a ] sinkhole of anti-hydraulic-fracturing advocacy. ] (]) 04:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
			Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was '''personal''' and for '''revenge'''. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under ], here called ] I think, and ]/], and in the AN/I above she's commiting ], repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment.
	== 1exec1 and ] ==
			<span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	* {{user15|1exec1}}
			:{{replyto|Eduardo_Gottert}} You need to provide evidence when opening an ANI thread, not on request. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	] is systematically adding the templat {{tl|Use dmy dates}} to articles with the edit comment of "date formats per ]". ] covers a multitude of points among which are:
			::'@] The evidences are above. I said if you need any '''further''' evidence, you may ask. All of the necessary evidence are on the request. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*]
			:::Where's the evidence? What we know is that DarwIn came here despite little involvement and made a highly offensive statement that can reasonably be characterised as transphobic. While I don't feel Sky Shifter should have described it so, better to let others decide, it was entirely reasonable for Sky Shifter to call for action against DarwIn for it. What is your evidence that they did it for revenge instead of for the fact that after a disagreement with DarwIn in a different wiki, DarwIn suddenly appeared in this wiki, one they themselves agree they barely edit, to make a highly offensive statement that Sky Shifter reasonably felt was transphobic. After doing so, they then appeared on ANI to make similar highly offensive statements were they made offensive accusations against living based on their own opinion. ] (]) 06:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*]
			::::Honestly, the argument is pretty clear above. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::If you agree you're wrong then please withdraw this ANI. ] (]) 06:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I did not agree in any place that I am wrong. I just stated that the evidence is pretty clear above, with all the block discussions and diffs needed for understanding the problem. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Your statement was very unclear. You said "the argument" which I interpreted to mean my argument. If you're still claiming your argument is clear, then please explain how it can be when part of your argument is it was unfair for Sky Shifter to go around saying "transphobia" when many of us agree that even if it was unnecessary, it was not unsupported given the comments DarwIn was making do seem to be transphobic. ] (]) 06:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::As we were talking about my evidence, I think saying "the argument" clearly refer to me. And as to the reason for the opening of this ANI, it's because the revenge seeking of Skyshifter. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::I wouldn't say it doesn't considering as I said, one of the reasons your argument was flawed, but you didn't address that in any way. Nothing you've said above or since has explained why you're claiming Sky Shifter using the word "transphobic" is evidence for "revenge" when it's a reasonable characterisation of what DarwIn said. ] (]) 06:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::{{ec}} I would add it's very unclear what you thinking you're adding that wasn't already considered above. In the above thread a 1 way iban on DarwIn seems to be getting serious consideration. A two way iban seems to have been rejected based on the assessment that whatever the wrongs with Sky Shifter's approach, it wasn't serious enough to warrant an iban. The fact that Sky Shifter was in a dispute with DarwIn on other wikis, and DarwIn was involved in their blocked is likewise not a secret, part of it was stated by Sky Shifter when opening the thread and the rest was stated by DarwIn. The sock allegation likewise. So what do you think you're adding to the discussion that wasn't already considered and seemingly rejected by the community above? ] (]) 06:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:It is time for a ]. You already said all of that above. You seem to have been canvassed here from a discussion outside of this wiki. Go back there and let them know cross wiki harassment will get you blocked here. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I added more evidence and context. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::You simply cast aspersions as part of a cross wiki harassment campaign against someone over transgender related issues. You are not here to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 06:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Your statement doesn't even make sense. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::We can add ] to the reasons you are blocked then. ] (]) 06:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Am I? And where am I in violation of ]? <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I used plain English and you said you couldn't comprehend it. ] (]) 06:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:I thought it was pretty well determined in that prior ANI thread that DarwIn's edits and statements absolutely were transphobic and bigoted. ]]<sup>]</sup> 06:07, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	As can be seen on archives of ], British dates can either be in the format of "dmy" or "md, y" it depends on the sources used (EG uses "dmy" while the uses "md, y").
			::The reason for the AN/I opens is still the same, revenge. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*I've read many of the posts on the Portuguese wiki, and it is pretty clear that the Skyshifter's complaint above is a deliberate expansion of drama from there. The Portugese wiki is not Uganda, people do not get banned there for being Trans, and former admins don't get banned without causing a lot of disruption. It is clear these two users really strongly dislike each other and need to stop interacting in any way.--] (]) 06:59, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:People obviously doesn't get banned for being trans. She was sysop there, commited some errors, but stayed there even after 5 months of being on estrogen. And the community knew it. What caused her block there was calling the project a sewage and then outbreaking and attacking other users. I suggest they get a two-way IBAN, at least, not the one-way as proposed on the other AN/I. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:I would add that unless I'm missing something, the block discussion on the Portugese Misplaced Pages seems to have been started about 30 minutes before the ANI thread . It has no contributions by DarwIn . It is theoretically possible I guess it somehow factored into the motivation of Skyshifter opening the ANI thread, but this seems extremely unlikely. There's a good chance Skyshifter wasn't even aware of it when opening the thread. In other words, there's no reason to think Skyshifter was even aware they were likely going to be permanently blocked from pt at the time of opening the thread although they did say they weren't going to return. ] (]) 07:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	While there is a good argument for adding {{tl|Use dmy dates}} to cope with British articles with dates that already have the dates formatted as "mdy", as there is no agreement in sources or guidelines for British dates to be exclusively formatted that way, {{tl|Use dmy dates}} should not be imposed on articles that have no day month information or are already formatted a different way.
			::She opened an NI, ptwiki equivalent of AN/I against DarwIn with crazy arguments. You can see it ]. It was prompty closed, and she was very well aware of the consequences she would face, and of the opening of the block discussion, and clearly opened the AN/I because of that reason. The block discussion started at 1130 UTC, and the AN/I was posted at 1300, at a time that Skyshifter had already taken notice of the discussion, as you can see . <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*This is ''very blatantly'' a tit-for-tat. As mentioned above there is the distinct smell of fishiness about it, and {{tqq|as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log}} - yes, the editor who has ''three FAs'' on en.wiki "came to this project" to do this. Suggest this be promptly closed as I hear a ] inbound. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	My concerns were raised by by ] because of the number of British articles that I watch which 1exec1 has been editing in the last few days.
			*:I am not saying she isn't an avid used of English wiki. I just stated that she took ptwiki matters here for revenge and self-fullfillment. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::If you aren't asking for any sanctions against Skyshifter, then why did you open this sub-section, just to sling some mud at her? Give it a rest already, you're just creating more drama than is necessary.]] 08:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I think that the background of this dispute is very relevant. Obviously, neither Skyshifter or Darwin should face any repercussions here for behaviour on pt.wiki, but it isn't possible to understand what is happening here without discussing what happened there. For me, having read what happened over there is the main reason I wouldn't yet TBAN Darwin, and would call for a two-way rather than one way interaction ban.--] (]) 08:50, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	On looking further I left a comment on ]:
			{{hab}}
	<blockquote>
	Take for example to the article ] there are no dates in article in the format of either dmy or md,y so it can not be justified on dates already in the article.
	</blockquote>
	1exec1 has not replied to this comment although 1exec1 has since replied to another user's comment placed on the talk page after mine, indicating that my posts have been read.
			== ] reported by ] ==
	After the reply to the last posting on ] in which 1exec1 says "The script doesn't run on its own, I would need a bot account for that. All edits are rechecked by me, so there should be few such errors, since I've manually fixed most of them, this one must have slipped below my radar" which on the face of it would seem to indicate due diligence, (a similar comment was posted before "I agree that sometimes I could make an error judging which format is used more, or just changed to DMY because there were few accessdates at all. I'll try to recheck some of my past edits and fix them if there are problems."), so I decided to look at the of 1exec1.
			{{atop|result=John40332 has been blocked sitewide. ] (]) 01:33, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	I only had to look back eight edits from the most recent to see that 1exec1 made
	''15 edits in the minute 01:33, 3 April 2012''. On examining the it is clear that more than simple tagging is talking place as the article ] has had all its dates changed from mdy to dmy and like the other 15 edits it was marked as a minor edit although it made many changes to the text.
			{{moved from|]|2=] (]) 14:12, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	So it seems clear that 1exec1 can not be observing due diligence if 15 edits are being made in a minute and that 1exec1 is imposing a format on British articles that is not justified by article content.
			{{vandal|John40332}} &ndash; On {{No redirect|:Psycho (1960 film)}} ({{diff|Psycho (1960 film)|1266578685|1265765039|diff}}): account is being used only for promotional purposes; account is evidently a spambot or a compromised account. User's recent edits have been dedicated almost invariably to inserting links in classical music-related articles to an obscure sheet music site. Behavior appeared to be ] and ]. Personal attempts to curb this behavior or reach a compromise were rejected by user. ] resulted in ], despite three other editors informing user that their edits appeared to be spam or some kind of advocacy. ] (]) 08:50, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	I suggest that 1exec1 desists from changing dates in articles unless there is consensus to do so (or split usage), and does not add the template to {{tl|Use dmy dates}} unless before 1exec1 starts to edit the dates in an article an article they are already all formatted as dmy or there is a consensus on the talk page of the article to use dmy in the article and to place the template {{tl|Use dmy dates}} in article space. Also these automated edits should not be marked as a minor change.
			:Not a bot and not spamming, you just keep ] me repeatedly, I cited sources to the publisher of the books in question. You appear to suffer from ] and act like I need your consent to edit the articles you feel that belong to you. You also know I'm not a compromised account, you spam ] on your reverts but you're mostly bullying other editors into submission.
			:You've been asked to stop disrupting editing https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:CurryTime7-24#January_2025 , and continue to harass any edits that touch "your" articles.
			:You also keep saying I add citation to obscure music sites, just because you don't know something doesn't make it obscure. Additionally, you are the only person raising this as an issue because you're extremely controlling of the articles, you don't own Misplaced Pages and hopefully some other editor or admin can remind you of that. ] (]) 09:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Are you claiming that SheetMusicX is a reliable source for these articles? If so then someone (it may be me but I don't guarantee it) should take it to ]. I note that several editors have queried this, not just CurryTime7-24. John40332 is clearly not a spambot or compromised account, so please avoid over-egging the pudding. ] (]) 18:19, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::It is reliable and listed with other , it's the homepage of the Canadian music publishing house Edition Zeza, their books are part of the , shows their books in libraries around the world etc, I shouldn't even have to dig this far because 1 editor decided he ] Misplaced Pages. The links I had included provided relevant information about the articles I was editing (orchestration, dates, duration etc). Cited information from a publisher of said work, which is exactly what ] suggests doing. ] (]) 18:41, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The editor's history does seem suspicious. From 2014 to 2023 they made a total of 24 edits to article space, almost all of which were to ] and ]. Then after more than a year of no edits, in the last 5 weeks they have made 38 edits to article space, of which all except three added a reference to sheetmusicx.com. This is a commercial site that sells sheet music. As far as I can see, every reference added was a link to a page that sells a particular piece of sheet music. This certainly seems like ]. ] (]) 19:00, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::So is the problem that I'm actively contributing now, or that the cited sources aren't good enough? You guys are grasping at straws at this point.] added links to commercial sites , such as to Fidelio Music (to which he appears to be an affiliate) and yet no one raises a flag. Even when I added a source without removing his, he removed mine to keep only his link to Fidelio Music. ] (]) 19:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::There is no "you guys" here. You have exactly the same status, as a volunteer editor, as I do. I have no idea who CurryTime7-24 is, or whether that editor is an affiliate. I just know about reliable sources and that we should not be linking to ''any'' commercial site, except possibly to the original publisher of a work. ] (]) 19:38, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			*] has compiled a page, ] of edits with links to this website. This list was not created by CurryTime7-24 but by a bot looking for instances of conflict-of-interests. All of the problems you are concerned about, John40332, would not exist if you would just stop posting links to this website. If you would agree to stop referring to sheetmusicx.com, you wouldn't be "hounded" or be defending yourself and we could close this complaint. Can you agree to that editing restriction? And, if you can't, then why are you insisting on linking to this particular website? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Because it's a valid source according to:
			*:] - "Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources"
			*:] - The publisher of the work (and not only the first ever publisher, any reputable publisher of a work)
			*:] - "Published means, for Misplaced Pages's purposes, any source that was made available to the public in some form."
			Interestingly, "someone" (and I'm not saying it's CurryTime7-24) came to my talk page yesterday to write , I can only think of 1 person who is hounding me this much though, but that doesn't seem to be taken seriously. ] (]) 07:29, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:That's not "interesting", that's despicable; as is your insinuation. As for sheetmusicx as as source: for what? That they published some work? Why is that noteworthy? -- ] (]) 08:00, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::As a source for information about the work. Yes it's despicable, and as I said, no one takes it seriously, I'm not insinuating anything, admins can look into the IP themselves. ] (]) 08:10, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::So, you would prefer that this dispute continue on, which could lead to sanctions for you, rather than simply stop using this website as a reference? To me, when I see that kind of behavior, it's typically a sign of a paid editor. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::There's no dispute, it's a reliable source and ] makes a fuss about it because of his ] syndrome and potential ] with his affiliation with Fidelio Music.
			::::Why are you against a source that complies with ] ? ] (]) 09:35, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Because your use of that source is pretty clearly intended as promotional. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:27, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It's hard to understand how you can say "there's no dispute" when there is quite obviously a dispute; six editors in this thread alone have questioned your use of that source. You have invoked ] to claim that the website is an acceptable source, but I'm not sure you have understood what that guideline says about commercial sites; they are allowed as references '''only''' to verify simple facts such as titles and running times. You have not used sheetmusicx.com for such purposes; you have used it to tell the reader where they can purchase sheet music (], ], ], ], ], etc). ] (]) 01:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I used it to add relevant information that didn't exist on Misplaced Pages.
			::::::When I added "Psycho A Narrative for String Orchestra" that exists since 1968 and never mentioned on Misplaced Pages, but CurryTime decided to harass me there too.
			::::::When I added the orchestration for Tambourin Chinois , which CurryTime decided to remove too.
			::::::I used information by the publisher to confirm facts, as per ], if commercial sources are not allowed to verify contributions, then why is everyone so quiet about CurryTime's affiliation to Fidelio Music links ? So far these comments are a good example of ], first I was accused of spamming, then of being a bot, then that my account was compromised, then that the source used wasn't reliable, if you run out of ideas try my religion or ethnicity. ] (]) 08:50, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Yes, you added the bit about Psycho - which included the link ''with the same phrasing as on the other edits'' where it was obvious "buy this music here". Your edits are either promotional or are indistinguishable from being promotional. That is why they are being removed. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You have repeatedly said that CurryTime7-24 is an affiliate of Fidelio. Can you show us your evidence of that? ] (]) 18:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Here he removed my source to add Fidelio Music
			::::::Here again to make sure only Fidelio Music exists
			::::::And obviously here, deleting what I added to include Fidelio Music exclusively
			::::::Here he completely deleted everything I added about the piece as part of his ] ] (]) 19:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::That may be evidence of something, good or bad, but it's certainly not evidence that that editor is an affiliate. But, anyway, the action that hould have been taken a few days ago has now been taken, so we can stop talking now. ] (]) 20:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It would be nice if an admin would compare the IP address 181.215.89.116 that told me to on my Talk Page, to existing users, now that would be fun to find out who is so against my edits, because so far the only action was a suspension. ] (]) 08:58, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::In any case the most obvious guess is: some unrelated troll who saw your name on this board. —] (]) 22:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			It appears that there is consensus here and at ] against linking to Sheet Music X. Is it possible for an admin to propose a resolution here? —] (]) 17:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:The only consensus is your ] syndrome, the sources linked are reliable and fit for purpose. People have questioned my use of the source, not the reliability of it.
	Until a consensus emerges here on what is acceptable, 1exec1 should desists from running the script that is being used. -- ] (]) 11:07, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			:You created this complaint stating that I'm a spammer, a bot or a compromised account, has that consensus been reached too ? ] (]) 18:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::No, {{u|John40332}}, you are wrong about the lack of consensus, and there is ''clear'' consensus against you linking to that commercial sheet music sales site. So, either you agree to stop doing so, or you get subjected to formal sanctions. Which will it be? ] (]) 18:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::So CurryTime can throw random accusations until something sticks? ] (]) 18:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::OK, then. {{u|John40332}} is indefinitely blocked from article space. The editor is free to make well-referenced, formal ] on article talk pages. The editor is warned that continuing to attempt to add links to Sheet Music X may lead to a sitewide block. The editor is advised to read the ]. ] (]) 19:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I made well referenced edits directly from a reputable publisher. Enjoy the power trip. ] (]) 19:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Please refrain from ] which violate policy. ] (]) 19:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Let me quote Misplaced Pages's page for Power Trip "(...) someone in a position of greater power uses that power unjustifiably against a lower-ranking person, typically just for display of dominance.", since you showed up just to block me when I haven't even edited anything else until this incident was cleared. I didn't spam, I'm not a bot, my account isn't compromised, I referenced a reputable publisher that due to CurryTime's ] and ] made him start this issue. ] (]) 19:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Put that shovel down before you are indef blocked completely. '''increase indef block to all namespaces''' for battleground mentality. ] (]) 19:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{od}}The block is now sitewide. ] (]) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	: The reason why I did these changes was that these pages were already in a hidden category ''Use DMY dates''. ''ALL'' articles are about a British subject and should have DMY dates anyway per ]. Only articles about an American subject can be in MDY, and even then there are exceptions, such as the military. Since I was editing pages related to military, specifically from ], I'm almost sure that all articles would use DMY per ], since even if an article is mistagged, almost all Commonwealth countries use DMY (]) and even then, the US military uses DMY also. Finally, my edits are not disruptive and can always be reverted if I'm wrong, so I see little misconduct here. But I'll stop until consensus is reached here. ] (]) 11:19, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			== User:Historian5328 ==
	: As for ''very'' high edit speed, I do all my edits in batches. I.e. open e.g. 300 articles in edit mode in tabs, do all changes, preview all changes and then commit all changes. This results in a lot of pages edited in short time, however this doesn't represent the time I spend on the articles. ] (]) 12:22, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|Historian5328}}
			I have been dealing with persistent additions of unreferenced numbers to ], ], etc for some time. Rolling them back - they're never supported by sources that validate the data, or the sources are distorted.
			In the last couple of days a new user, ] has also started showing this behaviour. But in this edit he's entering fantasy territory, saying the ] are equipped with the ], which has never been exported beyond the ]. I would request that any interested administrator consider this account for blocking. Kind regards and Happy New Year, ] ] 21:37, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	:1exec1's edits are consistent with WP:MOSDATE. If anybody wishes to change policy to have articles on British subjects use dates in US format, they should raise it on the talk page there and gain consensus for change. --] (]) 11:25, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			:Editor clearly has some serious ] issues, given this ] stuff, and using...let's say ''non-reliable sources'' elsewhere, without responding to any of the notices on their talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace so they can come here and explain themselves. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:05, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Just noting that the editor's username is ], not ] and they were informed of this discussion. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::In the same regard, I would kindly request that any interested administrators review ], who has been warned over and over and over again about adding unsourced and completely made up material (Somali Navy for example, consisting of 3,500 personnel..) ] ] 03:51, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I see you corrected their username in this report after I mentioned the mistake. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:19, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Liz, the original vandal and very problematic editor, who should be blocked immediately, was YZ357980. With all due regard to Historian5328, they display very similar behaviour, which immediately created a warning flag in my mind. ] ] 21:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I’m relatively new to Misplaced Pages editing and only recently discovered that there is even a talk page. Regarding the active personnel for the Somali Armed Forces, I listed approx 20,000–30,000 (2024) and included a citation, which I believe does not warrant being blocked. I’m a beginner in Misplaced Pages editing, have no malicious intent, and do not believe I should be blocked. Moreover, I read from a Somalia media source that the Somali government had acquired A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft, believing the source to be authentic up until I discovered I was blocked. This was a mistake on my part, as I am new and inexperienced (2 days.) The individual who requested me to blocked must have had bad experiences which I’m not responsible for. I am requesting to be unblocked. ] (]) 19:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Discussion continued on user's talk page. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:20, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			A reminder that the arbitration committee has designated the Horn of Africa a contentious topic, so don’t be afraid to lay down a CT advisory template for either user. ] (]) 08:30, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Both done - thanks for the reminder. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I've removed the pblock on Historian5328 as it appears what was happening was 'new user unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages's policies on reliable sourcing', but best to keep an eye on their edits. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:32, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			== ] and removal of sourced information ==
	: I've reread the relevant policy (]) and it seems to be pretty clear: ''Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the more common date format for that nation. '''For the US this is month before day; for most others it is day before month.''''' (emphasis mine). Because my edits are not disruptive (i.e. are very minor, often with no visible changes and can be easily reverted), I'm continuing to edit. If there are any other issues with my edits, please contact me on the talk page. Thank you. ] (]) 13:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			{{atop
			| status = no action at this time
			| result = Participants reminded to attempt communicating with other editors before reporting their behaviour to ANI. ] (]) 21:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	::What 1exec1 said has been my understanding all along. Our conventions tend to ignore the mix of date formats used in the "real world" in US and the UK. I'm sure that if he cares to delve into the archives, PBS should find the above wording of MOSNUM reflects the consensus position. WP articles on British, Irish, Australian, NZ, SA, India, Pakistan subjects almost universally use dmy format, and American articles almost always use mdy. --<small>] ]</small> 14:19, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			}}
			This seems to be an ongoing issue.
	::::That may be true in which case adding the template to those pages where the format is already consistent is in my opinion a minor edit. But altering the dates in a page is not a minor edit and there should be consultation on the talk page before the format is changed. Also placing a template on an article that will automate date formats on a page which does not yet have such a format under the argument of ] flies in the face of the spirit of ] "This guideline should not be used to claim national ownership of any article". --] (]) 15:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			{{Userlinks|Vofa}} has lots of warnings about disruptive editing in their user page and a block.
	::::: I think you misunderstand what ''national ownership'' means. The spirit of ] is that being the author of a piece of content doesn't make your opinion more important when that piece is edited. In this case ''national ownership'' means that being a national of some country shouldn't make your opinion more important. Thus this doesn't apply here. ] (]) 16:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			Most recent example of removal of sourced information:
	:::1exec1 I think you are ignoring the word "generally" in that quote from the guideline. Also there is no explicit mention of what is the most common format in Britain (see above both are used when the date is expressed with month in letters so neither is wrong) therefor I do not think it appropriate to make mass changes as you did to ] (particularly as a minor edits), or to add the templates to articles where the format has not yet been decided by a first major contributor, needs discussion on the talk page for a consensus to emerge if one is using semi-automated methods to impose dates on an article different from that which already exists, or on articles that do not already have a predetermined date format.
			I checked the source and the information is there on page 7.
	:::1exec1 what is the name of the tool you are using to make automate these changes? I ask because the changes do not look as if they are hand made as they change similar strings in all of the pages I have looked at, and it is also implied from the comments you have made on your talk page.
	::: -- ] (]) 15:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			Previous examples include: . Also see: ] ] (]) 16:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::There are a multitude of views what a minor edit is. But here on wikipedia it has a very specific meaning. As ] states, a minor edit is any edit which changes only the presentation of the content, such as typographical or spelling fixes, formatting changes or rearrangement of text. My edits ''never'' change the content, only formatting, and even then, only in minor way. Thus I think my edits qualify for being marked as minor.
			:Just to clarify, I just noticed that there is indeed an unsourced paragraph.
	:::::It also says "A minor edit is one that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute." I think that this ANI is an indication of dispute, and two other editors have objected to changes you made under minor. So I suggest most strongly that any change other than adding the template to the top of the article is not marked as a minor change. -- ] (]) 10:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			:The reason for removal of sourced information would then be "removed text not relevant to Chagatai Khanate and Golden Horde in introduction". However the source does mention {{tq|The first of the changes leading to the formation of the Turco-Mongolian tradition ...}} and then gives Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate as examples. I don't see any ] or ] issues.
			:I am concerned about removal of sourced information that does not seem to have a rationale based on ] ] (]) 16:41, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Hi there. The matter seems to be resolved. I did remove an unsourced paragraph and general claims not relevant to the introduction. I do not see a problem with it. You seem to have linked three edits I made. In the first edit, I had to revert because I accidentally chose the minor edit option. In the second edit, I have restored the previous version, but without a minor sign. I did not remove any sources (based on what I remember) I hope to see through my edits and understand what I did or did not do wrong. Please, avoid making an ANI in bad faith. ] (]) 03:06, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::You removed source information. The part that starts with {{tq|The ruling Mongol elites ...}}
			:::{{ping|asilvering}} from the editor's talk page, you seem to be a mentor. Removing sources or sourced material without explanation, or with insufficient explanation or rationale, such as "Polished language" , is an ongoing concern with Vofa. ] (]) 15:12, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Im not sure why I’m being stalked, but the edits you’re showing as examples of myself removing sources are more than two months old. I’ve stopped removing sources. ] (]) 19:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{ping|asilvering}} This issue is still continuing ] (]) 15:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::And you previously spoke to Vofa about this where...? -- ] (]) 19:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{u|asilvering}}, I hadn't talked about removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale.
			:::::I did talk about this however . See: ]
			:::::I don't seek or expect a permanent block over this. But as a mentor and an administrator, maybe you can comment on removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale. ] (]) 19:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::@], that's a ''threat'', not an explanation. If you have a content dispute with an editor, which is what this appears to be, you need to be able to talk it out with them on the article's Talk page. @], please be careful to make sure your edit summaries explain what you're doing. I see that there ''was'' an unsourced statement in the link Bogazicili just supplied, so I presume that's what you meant by "unsourced". But the other statement you removed ''did'' have a source. It's ok to split your edits up into multiple edits if you need to do that to explain them properly, but you could also just give an edit summary like "removed unsourced; also, removed statement " that addresses both changes. -- ] (]) 23:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, I would not characterize this as a "content dispute". I was not involved in most of those articles. I got concerned after seeing edits market as minor removing sources or sourced material without any or proper explanation. That is not a content dispute, that is an editor conduct dispute. ] (]) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::What Vofa does at articles related to Turko-Mongolian history is not a content dispute but vandalism. It took me a lot of time to manually revert the hoax years and figures he added in ] article to decrease their population and he also removed sourced basic info from the lede of the ] which I had to restore. These are just some of few sneaky vandalism examples that I caught among the pages I patrol by Vofa. If you see his talk page, he has been warned a lot of times by many other editors for such mischief. ] (]) 07:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::@], Vofa hasn't edited the Turkmens article since before they were blocked. That is obviously not an ongoing issue. As for ], I ''also'' see no discussion of those edits. If you have a problem with how someone is editing, you need to communicate with them. -- ] (]) 08:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, my concerns were removal of sourced information or sources without proper rationale or explanation. Do you think that was communicated enough to Vofa in this topic, or do we need further communication? I'm asking in case Vofa continues this type of behavior. Hopefully that won't be the case. ] (]) 08:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Im going to repeat this again;
			::::::::::I have not removed any sources since I was warned about it.
			::::::::::I do not see an issue with my recent editing.
			::::::::::You should communicate with me on any issues that you have with me. ] (]) 11:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::{{u|Vofa}}, do you see any issues with this edit: ] (]) 11:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Are you implying if I see an issue with this edit of mine or with your removal of said edit? ] (]) 15:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::{{u|Vofa}}, the former. I am asking if you see any issues yourself with your own linked edit. ] (]) 17:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::I do not see an issue with the linked edit of mine. ] (]) 19:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::Indeed, really the issue was Bogazicili's, and it has now been solved in the usual way (by restoring only the sourced content). Apologies, @], for misreading it earlier. -- ] (]) 19:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, I disagree. I did miss the unsourced paragraph. However, removal of sourced content has been an ongoing issue with Vofa. They should not have removed sourced content to begin with.
			:::::::::::::::There was also a previous discussion in ANI:
			:::::::::::::::]
			:::::::::::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, again, is the threshold of communication met if removing sourced content by Vofa persists in the future? ] (]) 19:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::Basically, I'm not trying to get Vofa blocked, but they should be more careful in future when they remove sources or sourced content. They should have a reasonable rationale based in ], and they should explain that rationale properly. ] (]) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::Indeed they should. And you should not restore unsourced content once it has been removed. -- ] (]) 20:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::{{u|asilvering}}, the difference is I already acknowledged it multiple times. Is that not obvious? ] (]) 21:40, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::@], I'm going to close this report. No administrative action is required here at this time. You should make a habit of communicating on the article talk page when you get into a conflict with another editor, but you should ''always'' try to communicate with other editors before coming to ANI about their behaviour. This should be your last resort. If you make an earnest effort to communicate and are ignored, by all means report here. If there is edit-warring or obvious vandalism involved, please take that to the relevant noticeboard. -- ] (]) 21:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Thank you. ] (]) 11:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::This member often vandalises, in an article about ] he wrote huge numbers without backing them up with sources and tried to prove it was true. This is rabid vandalism. ] <sup>]</sup> 12:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::@], vandalism has a specific meaning on Misplaced Pages; an edit being unsourced does not mean it was vandalism. Do not cast aspersions on other editors in this way. @], you are edit-warring on ]. You need to stop doing that immediately. -- ] (]) 19:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I have not edited Oirats. I have stopped edit warring. ] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== "Wikifascist" & ] ==
	:::::: Could you '''prove''' that my edits are prone to objections and needs a review? So far I've made around 7000 edits and there were only 5 cases where my edits contained an error which was then fixed. I'd say it's acceptable rate of errors. ] (]) 11:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			This one is pretty straightforward. An editor ({{ping|Last1in}}) has deemed it OK to refer to me as a "wikifascist" on their talk page (]). A clear case of ], I find this to be extremely offensive. ] (]) 03:24, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::This ANI '''is''' proof that there are objections. &mdash; <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 14:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			:So apparently the editor has "retired" but is continuing editing using IPs? Anyway placed a warning for personal attacks on Last1in's user talk page. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Yes, that seems to be the case. Sorry, I should have mentioned that — it's all around weird. ] (]) 04:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			==User:YZ357980==
	::::As for the generality, there ''is'' consensus that articles about British subject should have DMY format. Whether the article already uses DMY or MDY shouldn't matter. ] even has a separate exception for that: ''The date format chosen by the first major contributor in the early stages of an article should continue to be used, <u>unless there is reason to change it based on strong national ties to the topic</u>'' (emphasis mine). If we combine this with ], it becomes clear, that consensus is needed for using ''other'' format than DMY, not the other way round. Thus, it's the opposite, my edits are ''generally'' good. One could argue only about specific articles, but then one should have strong arguments. As for ], I see nothing problematic, he's British and article almost doesn't talk about things related to countries that have MDY style. Pretty good candidate for format conversion on the grounds of ].
			*{{userlinks|YZ357980}}
			I have just rolled back this edit
			() which (1) inaccurately introduces an incorrect Somali name into ]; (2) installed a poor homemade copy of the Armed Forces crest dubious copyright and authenticity into the article, when a PD photo is visible in the infobox image; and (3) violated ] with the infobox.
			I would kindly request any interested administrator to review the very dubious insertions of inflated personnel numbers introduced by this user into various Somali military articles, plus the error ridden and biased edits warned about at the top of the editor's talk page, with a view to a ] from African & Middle East military articles, widely construed. ] ] 21:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Finally, ''ask for consensus first'' isn't a policy endorsed by Misplaced Pages. Even ] itself says that an edit should be made first (also, look at the flowchart in the right). ] and ] also advocate for ''edit first, ask later'' style. The sheer number of edits I make, while irritating, shouldn't make a difference, since the error rate is so low. I use a modified script made by ], you can find it on his user page. ] (]) 16:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			:] doesn't have a history of communicating with other editors. I have posted to their talk page, encouraging them to come to this discussion but I'm not optimistic that they are even aware that they have a User talk page. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I have given them a final warning and also a chance for them to participate here. If they don't, let's see what they get. ] (]) 06:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			==Incivility and ABF in contentious topics==
	:::::I do not think that BOLD applies to mass edits which are close to BOT edits and are inserting a template that leaves the article open to BOT enforcement. My evidence that these are close to BOT edits is your posting to ] . -- ] (]) 10:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::: Firstly, there's currently no such automatic bot which enforces the date formats. Secondly, all edits are firstly reviewed and approved by me and I'm not a bot. You argue that I do bad job reviewing my edits, could you '''prove''' that? With links to disputed diffs and so on? ] (]) 11:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			]'s uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it ''is'' problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:
	*Support what 1exec1 is doing to improve and harmonise date formats. Not sure why it has been brought here; wouldn't ] be a better venue for this discussion? --] (]) 16:27, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.
	**This is not a question of MOSNUM but a question of editor actions. -- ] (]) 10:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883
	] I think you should have declared an interest in this section -- That you are in co-operation with ]. You say "care to delve into the archives" Yes I will. But also please show me where in the archives it was agreed what is most common in the UK and that the word '''generally''' should be ignored and that '''all''' British articles should conform to that format (rather than generally conform to that format)? -- ] (]) 10:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:The talk archives at ] contain comprehensive discussions on the topic dating, if I may use the word, from the earliest days of the project. What we have now works and while you are welcome to propose changes, this is not the place to do so. --] (]) 11:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			WP:NPA
	While I can't say too much about what we do for British and American articles, I'd like to ask that this be avoided for Trinidad and Tobago-related articles, given that while we abbreviate dmy, most long-form dates are written md,y. I suspect that there are other countries that don't fit into this strict division either. ] (]) 13:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324
	== Repeated false accusations of 'vandalism' etc at The Zeitgeist Movement article ==
			Profanity
	See with the edit summary "Adding real content about actions which troll who govern this page would prefer not to allow. Removing ongoing POV vandalism". The editor ], who's only contributions have been in relation to ], or related articles, has been repeatedly told (see also ], and of course ] - particularly the edit summaries) that such false accusations of 'vandalism' are uncalled for, and must stop. The fundamental problem is that TZM supporters are trying to spin the article their way, and adding questionable material sourced solely to their own organisation. Given the fairly obvious sock/meatpuppetry that has been going on in relation to the article, I doubt that a simple block or topic ban is going to solve the problem. Administrator action is clearly necessary regarding Reinventor098's actions, but I think we will also have to consider wider measures concerning the article. ] (]) 18:10, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966
	:I'm not sure blocking anyone would help as I expect socks to appear in fairly short order. From their actions, I don't think they really care too much about our policies, just getting their POV in the article. Semi protection won't help as several of the SPA's are confirmed. Maybe a month of full protection to force the use of the talk page? If they get used to using the talk page, maybe they'd continue after the protection. <b><font color="darkred">]</font></b> <font color="black">(])</font> 18:20, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor
	::Sadly, they seem to consider the talk page as an ideal place to make accusations of 'vandalism' - so I'm not sure that would help much. ] (]) 18:23, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877
	:::Yup, but I'd rather there than deal with the continual reverts. Full protection + some polite but direct warnings from someone totally uninvolved might get the point across to them and if not, short blocks for civility as needed. More than anything, it's the reverting of their POV and minutia that's tiring to me. As long as they don't get too personal on their comments, calling anything they don't like vandalism is something I consider annoying but expected. <b><font color="darkred">]</font></b> <font color="black">(])</font> 18:33, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
			Unicivil
	::::Well, I suppose I must be one of those "trolls who govern this page". There is certainly a problem with single-purpose POV editing here. Users {{user|Reinventor098}} and {{user|Voiceofreason467}} have concrtrated almost exclusively on this topic and have very similar styles and points of view, although VOR has disclaimed any connection . ] (]) 18:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::I would like to point out here Cusop that I have not in large actually claimed false forms of accusations whenever their would be edits that are not what I would like to be done. . Accusations of vandalism and trolling are obvious that I tend to do: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Acharya_S#WP:Manual_of_Style.2FBiographies.23First_mention . For those wondering about my bias in editing, you should see my comment I made here:
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027
	" * Weak Keep - Considering that another article titled The Zeitgeist Movement has been suggested to be merged with this one I would imagine that it would be best to keep it. Especially considering that this might even be a method of trying to get both articles removed. I myself am not opposed to the issue of merging that article with this one, but if we are to do so... it might be a good idea to keep this one. To be honest though, the notability is a bit lacking at any rate about the person in question (even though I would disagree, but my disagreement is based on personal opinion, and thus has no place for dispute).Reason and Logic shall always prevail (talk) 12:48, 25 March 2011 (UTC)"
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441
	Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Peter_Joseph_%282nd_nomination%29
			Contact on user page attempted
	So my bias and my accusations are not baseless and I do have good reasons for them being such. I just did not realize that Misplaced Pages had such an internal method to use and I will use that from now on. It was pointed out to me so as such I was simply in mistake. Oh and for the record, my contributions have been relied upon since 2008 for those wondering.] (]) 22:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	:Article was just with the only explanation provided being: Removing Anti-TZM Troll reversion. Editor still reluctant to engage the troll hordes on the talk page<br />Best Wishes <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']'''.''']'''</small> 23:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	:: I would concur with you Ankh, calling what was edited as a troll edit is completely uncalled for. I mean I think the edit of inserting the word cult into the article would be trollish, but that is obvious, the edit that AndyTheGrump did was not trollish and I have no course other than to say the person is engaging in a false accusation, probably based on a personal grudge.] (]) 00:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::Note that the edit-warring is continuing, with both Reinventor098 and an IP making yet further massive reverts: . As for my comment about cults, that was made on the talk page, in response to a personal attack - I have at no time suggested that the article should describe TZM as a cult (we'd need a third-party reliable source, for a start). ] (]) 01:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::Good grief - it's getting worse with IP's and new SPA's coming out. At this point, I think protecting the article in a non-POV version and going from there is about the only option. <b><font color="darkred">]</font></b> <font color="black">(])</font> 01:55, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	Well it's protected now. ] (]) 03:52, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795
	== Persistent editor at University of Ottawa article ==
			Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent
	{{archive top|1=Article semi'd. (And I'm pretty sure I saw 11 or 12RR once...) - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:26, 4 April 2012 (UTC)}}
	{{Resolved}}
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557] (]) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	] is engaged in an edit war with many different editors at ]. There is an outstanding 3RR report (although he or she is at 8 or 9RR by my count, just today!) and an SPI request. Those requests have been outstanding for several hours but the edit warring continues. Can someone please block this editor? Thanks! ] (]) 23:16, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	:Up to 10RR, which is a record for anything I have ever seen..... Yeah hopefully this gets resolved soon. ] (]) 23:21, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	::Article semied by {{u|Bwilkins}}. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml"> ''']'''</span> ] 23:24, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			:Think this calls for a fierce ] slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a ] according to ], as this is just an ] and frankly, I don't see ''direct'' personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as {{tq|some diffs from the past few days}} are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	== User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz ==
			::Would I be the person to provide you with that {{tq|further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions}}? I did think that it would be more than a ], since that's for {{tq|one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior}} and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern ]. ] (]) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:@]: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. ''Hob should know better'', and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to ]. But I would ''caution you'' about ] and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your , , and it seems like you're having a problem handling a ] and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.
			:Furthermore it does appear that you might be ] because your attempts at ] for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. , , , , , , and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding ] and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards ]. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. ]&thinsp;] 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address ''unique issues'' as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Lardlegwarmers#c-Liz-20241210000200-Editors_getting_banned_for_being_a_%22dick%22,_editing_Covid-19_articles</ref> that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines.<ref>"{{tq|All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.}}" https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests/ANI</ref> Thank you for your time and input.
			::] (]) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	I have been concerned about the behaviour of {{usertcb|Kiefer.Wolfowitz}} for about a month now. He has been making comments that are consistently aggressive towards other editors. A sample of examples follow: , , (edit summary), , , , (edit summary), , , , , . Other users have approached me as an admin with concerns about these and other comments. One of these comments in isolation would be easily forgivable. But the attacks and negative tone seem to be incessant.
			::I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: {{tq|trying to report other editors in bad faith}}. ] (]) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{OD}}
			@]: Jay brought something to my attention with . It looks like there is ] (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think {{!tq|hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason!}} I'm confused. This specific revision also ] about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. {{tq|Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.}} I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, ], what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, '''not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT''', in your own words. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. ] (]) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	I made an attempt to raise these concerns with the user , and my edit was simply with a put-down edit summary.
			::look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @], you should familiarise yourself with ]. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. ] (]) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a ] slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{u|BarntToust}} You're being ] and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @], I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a '''formal warning''' or a ] slap is what needs to happen to Hob. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. ] (]) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are ] and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @], I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::@], I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. for ''context'', in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. ] (]) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Thanks! *curtsy* ] (]) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. ] (]) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	The user has twice been blocked in the past six months for disruptive editing, and it is starting to reach that stage again. Normally, I would have no hesitation to block the editor for the accumulated nature of the comments he has made, but since I have been the target of some of his attacks, I feel it is best dealt with here. ] <sup>]</sup> 00:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			:I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? ] (]) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I agree. I have had a few run-ins with KW over the years, and I consistently found him to be disruptive, counter-productive, and often quite rude. He always seems to be the first one to accuse others of personally attacking him (often when they're not), while simultaneously dealing out personal attacks of his own. The diffs towards the end of the list in the above post are particularly concerning. Calling other editors stupid, moronic, and idiotic is unhelpful and clearly incompatible with ] and ], as is telling an editor that "Life is confusing when you have a brain." Any of those diffs on their own are not a blockable offense, but I agree that the demonstrated long-term pattern is problematic. At the very least, I would support issuing a final warning to KW, to let him know that future incivility will result in blocks of significant and increasing duration. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 03:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			::@] As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? ] (]) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	::'''My two cents''' For what it's worth, I brought this to Good OlFactory's attention and I have previously had run-ins with Kiefer before. I explicitly told him on two occasions that he needed to stop this belligerence or else I would have an admin intervene (if someone really needs diffs, I'm sure I can find them.) He then posted more positive notes on my and his talk pages--it's impossible to say if that was genuine good faith or just hoping that I would forget about him for awhile, but he has made it a point to be needlessly provocative and it really needs to stop. —]❤]☮]☺]☯ 04:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			:::...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I must say, I've had a lot of troubles with this user over the past year or so, but recently we've been getting along (especially since we to stop discussing our past). I have been a little worried about his recent behaviour - , . The above disruptive editing mentioned by Good Ol'factory, which I also with KW, I hoped had passed. ]&nbsp;<span style="font-weight:bold;">&middot;</span>&#32;(]) 08:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			::::Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". ]] 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' ]? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word ''bullshit'', which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills"]] seems pretty temperate. And so on. ] &#124; ] 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
			:I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at ] where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. ] (]) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	Would this be worth starting a RFC over? --''']]]''' 08:42, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			:My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - ] (]) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:] is a blue link. ]&nbsp;<span style="font-weight:bold;">&middot;</span>&#32;(]) 08:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			::My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	::From that RfC's summary, {{xt| KW has agreed voluntarily with two viewpoints in particular (Fetchcomms and Sławomir Biały) that he can be tactless and aggressive in discussions, although most editors can be at times, and that he should try to minimize the behavior and be a little more respectful to those around him (close paraphrasing of Sławomir Biały) and also that he should say things in a nicer and non-demeaning manner (close paraphrasing of Fetchcomms).}} Apparently, he has not changed his ways and can still be tactless and aggressive. If there are no objections, in a couple of hours I'll impose a week-long block due to the ongoing pattern of violations of ]. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml"> ''']'''</span> ] 10:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			Hob Gadling failing to yield to ], apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. ] (]) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*I have been the previous recipient of some of KW's hostility, and although we've not had much interaction since, I do not think he has learned from the RFC despite his claims to have done so. He still treats editors he disagrees with (or, perhaps more correctly, editors who disagree with him) with contempt — perhaps to intimidate, I'm not sure. But I'm not convinced a block will do anything. It's probably time for civility parole, or failing that, bringing this to a higher court. —] (] • ]) 12:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	*I don't see any point in a final warning after the RfC, earlier ANI discussions and his blocks. Maybe being blocked for a week will change his behavior. ] (]) 13:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)		:Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. ] (]) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Propose''' serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at ]. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) ] (]) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Indeed, I wasn't aware of his previous RfC. Looks like he has already received plenty of warning. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 13:46, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			*:For context, ] is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling.<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1266980661</ref> ] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	*I, too, have had to speak to Kiefer in the recent past about , and he responded to me with extreme anger (though he did eventually redact what I had asked him to redact). It doesn't look to me like the RfC on him made much of an impression on him, and I think Salvio is probably right that it's time to start actually holding him responsible for his behavior. ] (]) 15:06, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			*::I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. ] (]) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	*KW never seems to miss an opportunity to needlessly insult or attempt to belittle someone - there is a little club of editors who conduct themselves in a similar fashion, all of whom are very unpleasant to deal with. Perhaps the most astonishing and concerning thing is that he and they genuinely believe that they are somehow superior to other editors, with little or nothing to support that view. ] (]) 20:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			*:::Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. ] (]) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	*I should note that after I called him out on casting nonsense, disruptive !votes (, ) in a CfD (), KW responded by Wikilawyering over ], claiming that I was misusing ], and also falsely accusing me of altering his comments (), which (a) I did not do and (b) the striking of the bolded part of a !vote when a user has cast multiple !votes in a discussion is a standard admin task, especially when said !votes are cast disruptively and in bad faith. I agree that a block for disruptive and uncivil editing that goes contrary to the collaborative goals of the project would not be out of the question here. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			*::::Recuse{{smiley}} Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. ] (]) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. ] (]) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to ] above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. ] (]) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*As a note, Hob Gadling without comment and has not responded here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	* I also have asked ] to tone down his comments, both ] (which he blew off with what appears to be his typical rhetoric), and at his talk page, (which ). ]. And after ] dropped further concerns ], I suggested this AN post to get more eyes on this. This would seem to be consistent behaviour. - <b>]</b> 00:54, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
			*:Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. ] (]) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{od}}
			Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing ] misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as ], and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as ]. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. ]]<sup>]</sup> 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	===Devil in the details===
	The ANI choir sings in tune, with no caveats or concerns about the "alert" by Good Olfactory, who lists the following edit summary:
	* "redact personal attack with hysterical vindictive invitation to nuke my contributions. What the fuck is wrong with this page?"
	Anybody who bothered to investigate the surrounding diffs knows that Elen of the Roads commented on that thread, as she commented (most actively!) on my RfC. I submit that Elen is well aware of WP policy and the black stains on my soul. Nonetheless, she did not consider that comment as block-worthy as Good Olfactory, who has with considerable restraint, he assures us, not blocked me himself.
			:Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. ] (]) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	Would any of you explain your rush to judgment and to pass a civility block, and failure to discuss any of these diffs? Why didn't anybody object to Good Olfactory's listing of this diff? Isn't that prime facie evidence of misfeasance by you all?
			:*I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) {{tq|bullshit}} to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that ''that'' was what led Lardlewarmers to try and , a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward ] situation. --] (]) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">].]</span></small> 20:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			:*:There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "]" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to ] and stop treating ]. ] (]) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	:''Would any of you explain your rush to judgment and to pass a civility block''... This thread has been going some 20ish hours (forever by ANI standards) and you have not been handed any civility block. How on earth is this a rush to judgement? Your regular misinterpretation of comments (either deliberatley or for some other reason - AGF says the latter) is one of the thing that most irritates and this is a prime example. Kiefer - I'm afraid I have to agree you seemed to have learnt nothing from the RFC linked above; a shame as I assumed you had. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">] : ] </span></small> 21:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			:I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. ] (]) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Hi Pedro,
	::A "rush to judgment" is a cliche in US legal discussions, describing a failure to show due diligence in discussing a case. ANI is not a courtroom, of course, but some discussion is usually advised.
	::Please focus on the substance of my remarks. Where is there any discussion of any of the diffs cited? Where is there any caveat that in e.g. one diff, KW may have actually been helping protect the encyclopedia?
	::We all have off days. I have noted being irritated by my year's work on ], which included my politely accepting comments about my lack of logic and misunderstanding of "author" and striving for consensus (resulting in a TLTR page), being left off the April Fools Day DYK, and so losing 10 thousand or more readers, commenting that "even Homer nods". Comparing Crisco1492 to Homer was not intended as a personal attack.
	::Sincerely, <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">].]</span></small> 21:22, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::Thank you for the clarification on "rush to judgement". Luckily I'm not an American so didn't parse it as a reference. Indeed I seem to recall us disagreeing in the past, partly because you couldn't quite grasp my Bitish humour? On a multi-cultural site these things are tough, and I'm a regular offender in that respect too, I suspect. No matter. I would note that opening this sub-heading with ''"The ANI choir sings in tune"'' is hardly likely to win people over however. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">] : ] </span></small> 21:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::Hi Pedro!
	::::We almost always disagree, and you usually show up criticizing me, but I still like you because you are a good person. I don't like persons behaving well because of conformity or a wish to become administrators, etc. I do appreciate you because you are sincere---"Before all Temples th' upright heart..."--- both when you are good, in which case you are very good, and even when you are bad .... ;)
	::::<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">].]</span></small> 21:48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::If I ''"usually show up criticizing"'' then that's likely for a reason. I don't tend to go aound criticising for the good of my health :) Cheers. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">] : ] </span></small> 22:02, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	*I certainly discussed the diffs in my initial post in this thread. I referred to specific comments in the diffs and how they violate policy: {{xt|"Calling other editors stupid, moronic, and idiotic is unhelpful and clearly incompatible with ] and ], as is telling an editor that 'Life is confusing when you have a brain.'"}} For further recent discussion and evidence of KW's typical ] response, see ]. I'd fully support a block, but KW appears to be set in his ways such that I doubt it would change his behavior for very long. It would certainly be sad to lose a prolific contributor, but being prolific/experienced/intelligent does not afford you special treatment here. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 21:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	*: Scottywong (formerly Snottywong),
	*:You are continuing to repeat falsehoods, confusing my labeling statements as "idiotic" with my labeling editors as "idiotic". There is one editor that I frequently insult in comment summaries, but nobody has ever complained about those.... In my youth, I would have labeled such falsehoods with an f-word, but I have matured with the help of my friends....
	*:A reader complaining that they were confused by an infobox did not have the patience to read a few sentences of the lede of John Rainwater, which explained things. Of course, an article about a mathematical in-joke may make some readers puzzled, until they read the lede.... (Mathematical scientists spend most of your lives being puzzled and frequently cursing our stupidity, and I obviously have trouble understanding why puzzlement is regarded as a problem.) <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">].]</span></small> 22:29, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::In this ANI thread, I count 11 editors who unanimously see a problem. In the ] thread, two editors are telling you that your comments are inappropriate. How many editors need to tell you the same thing before you will begin to even consider the possibility that maybe ''you're wrong''? ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 22:01, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::Would it help you to know that I am naked and carrying a lamp? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">].]</span></small> 23:05, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::Not that my opinion particularly matters, but this comment pretty much tips the balance for me. I'm with everyone above, some admin action seems to be needed here unfortunately. Kiefer apparently can't help himself, even here at ANI, so he probably needs to (metaphorically) go sit in a corner for a bit to consider his actions.<br/>—&nbsp;] <span style="font-variant:small-caps">(]&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;])</span> 23:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::The degree to which you are cryptic when you try to label me as dishonest and/or inauthentic does not change the reality that you are attempting to ]. This is the status quo for KW. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 00:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	*I don't see what's wrong with . Using a vandal template to list someone is in poor taste, and the edit summary is an appropriate response. I don't work on the same articles that Kiefer does, I do think they could tone it down, I detect verbosity and hyperbole--but I don't see a reason to start throwing punitive terminology around. Now, if you'll pardon me, I'm going back to where I was. ] (]) 22:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	*:The first nemesis in my tragic attempts to bring Peter Orno to the main page... kindly forgave my first Ornoery period. I appreciate his letting my latest Milton quote pass without complaint....
	*:When it was applied to me, twice, the vandal template did not have Elen's helpful note that "nuke" only removes very recent contributions, not ''all'' of the contributions. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">].]</span></small> 22:36, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	*::Maybe I should not have included that particular diff, as it seems to be a distraction for Kiefer from the main issue. Had I not included that one, there were several others I could have used in its place. The point is that there is a consistent problem with incivility and aggressiveness towards other editors. ] <sup>]</sup> 00:18, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	=== Blocked===
	*'''Update'''. I have just blocked {{User|Kiefer.Wolfowitz}} for a week. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml"> ''']'''</span> ] 23:51, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	* For whatever it's worth, I support the block. - <b>]</b> 00:54, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	* And so do I. Even the most brilliant content creation doesn't excuse the attitude he displays. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 03:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	== Finally registered ==
			{{reflist}}
	{{archive top|1=Alas, no can do. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 03:06, 4 April 2012 (UTC)}}
	So I finally registered a username. I edited extensively as an IP and am wondering if there is any way to salvage my history. Old IPs were:
	*76.18.43.253
	*98.203.99.251
			== Thread on List of Crypids talk page has devolved into an unproductive flame war ==
	Thanks --] (]) 01:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:You can view the edits made by those IPs via {{ip|76.18.43.253}} and {{ip|98.203.99.251}}, however it is not possible to merge accounts and their editing histories. ] (]) 01:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			]
	== Verification of a source ==
			The thread, '''''List rapidly further degrading''''' initially started out as another attempt to delete the list and similar Cryptozoology pages but has now devolved into toxicity with insults and personal attacks directed at users engaging with the thread. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 05:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	I'd like a neutral party to verify a Romanian source used in the article about ]. ] on the matter, thinking that I might remove the paragraph myself, but ]--who suspects me of being a permabanned user (he didn't elaborate)--claimed that I was stalking him. I haven't touched the article, fearing it could lead to an edit war. Maybe you guys could ask a Romanian speaker to take a quick look on the article and see if the paragraph in question corresponds to its source. Thanks in advance! --] (]) 01:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			:Note that this account, an ] created in August of 2024 and focused on cryptozoology subjects, is likely one of the cryptozoology-aligned accounts discussed below (). ] (]) 05:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I would personally recommend ] to review the source, since his judgment can be trusted. I don't know how he would feel about that, though. --] (]) 01:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			::I am not entirely focused on cryptozoology, as I have edited topics related to film, music, literature, zoology, video games, extinction, and technology. How is asking for an article to be cited on a zoology article related to cryptozoology? ] (]) 06:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Have no idea of the history here. I had a look at the article, it appears to correspond to the edit. However this new user's first edit summary was User:Defetistul ‎ (←Created page with 'In Dahn We Trust.') ... Draw your own conclusions.... ] (]) 01:53, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			:::], what action are you seeking here? If you are making a complaint about personal attacks, you must provide evidence/"diffs" of examples of the conduct you are complaining about. Just mentioning a talk page without identifying the editors or edits that are problematic will likely result in no action being taken. You need to present a full case here and if you mention any editor by name, you need to post a notification of this discussion on their User talk page. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Yes, it's true that I like Dahn and I appreciate his work. As for the source, are you certain you have read the article? Do you speak Romanian? Where in that article does it state anything about protochronism? --] (]) 02:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	I've blocked Defetistul as an obvious, more or less self-admitted () sock of somebody. I don't really know who the sockmaster is, but I trust Dahn when he says it's obvious for people who know the backstory here. Perhaps Dahn could confirm who it is. ] ] 05:58, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			== User lobbying fringe subculture off-site for fringe subculture and suspicions of ]ry ==
	== Vandlisim and slander being repeated ==
			{{atop|1=It's said that ] - well, ANI is ''also'' not a place to bring fishing expeditions. If you have evidence of ''recent'' misconduct by an editor, then by all means bring it. But if you just {{tqq| more would come to light}}, expect a {{tl|trout}}ing. I'm closing this as unactionable with a fish for the OP, and a caution to in the future compile evidence ''before'' coming to ANI. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			Over at ] and the very questionable ], both extremely ] topics strongly linked to for example ], myself and a few other users find ourselves having to respond to a lot of accounts that either openly or less than openly state that they're members of the article's subject subculture and that, like the subculture's founders, have a strong distaste for experts ( from one such fairly new account, {{ping|KanyeWestDropout}}).
			One of these editors, {{user|Paleface Jack}}, has been caught lobbying off site (). The user has also likely done so elsewhere that hasn't come to light. This user's efforts appear to have led to a variety of ]s popping up to ] any and all changes they disagree with, an effort to shape the articles to the subculture's preference.
	{{archivetop|1=BLP-offending material has been hidden, anon user warned.-<b>]<sup>(])</sup></b> 10:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)}}
	{{Resolved}}
	Slander about a third party is being posted on the American Digger page. It has been removed twice in three days by those who monitor it, but was reposted. Here is one view of the coments, calling a former employee a fraud and fake. It was not posted by anyone with any knowledge of such things nor connected with the magazine, but purely as a revenge tactic against the person slandered, Ric Savage.
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=American_Digger_(magazine)&diff=485402608&oldid=485279098
	Even though we are 99% dertain who it is, we can not prove it. If it is the person we suspect, we have warned them before about slander and such abuse. Can this action be stopped and the poster either warned again or blocked? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:39, 4 April 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	{{archivebottom}}
			Again, it's important to emphasize that not only has Paleface Jack been caught red-handed here but he has likely also lobbied elsewhere, leading to long-term problems for these and associated articles.
	== ] and ] ==
			As some users here know, I edit a lot on fringe topics and have all but single-handedly written our coverage on topics like ], utilizing nothing but the highest quality possible sources. Along the way, I've endured relentless insults and less-than-pleasant anonymous messages. I've been a personal target for users like Paleface Jack and co for years.
	I have come across two editors in articles related to Indian films named ] and ]. The former has been here for three years. They have been repeatedly indulging in behavior consisting of a spurt of ], ] and threats to other editors. Ankitbhatt also seemed to ] a couple of editors in the process. ''To note, he had taken a wiki-break for around sixty days in the period of November and December, but even after that, there seemed to be no change in his attitude.'' Ashermadan has been repeatedly using caps-lock in edit-summaries and has been blocked for sockpuppetry. Caps indicate shouting. I would, hence, like to bring it to the notice of admins, their behavior over the past six-eight months through a report, which can be found below. Regards, <font face="Batik Regular">]</font> 10:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	{{Collapse top|Ankitbhatt}}
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	]
	Ankitbhatt to Bollywood Dreamz
	*"Until then, since my edits are so obviously receiving the boot very frequently in comparison to others, I will stop editing on this article. Perhaps that will give you the peace of mind you so obviously desire."
	*"I suggest that you do either one of two things: either stop over-reacting whenever my edits come up, since you seem to be extremely touchy over that (God knows why), and get a life; or second, just completely stop interacting with me."
	*"But since you are acting mostly like a little child, I shall not over-saddle you with things you obviously are too lazy to do."
	*"I also can keep this discussion going on, and believe me, if it does so, it will certainly not be as pretty and polite as it is now."
	*"You and I are just not meant to get along, so it's best to be separate and not interfere in each other's matters. However, I'm warning you, if I find that any of my edits, which have perfectly reliable sources attached, are deleted with lame excuses, the consequences will again not be pretty."
	*"Perhaps if you had had the brains to use this method before, we could have avoided a lot of unnecessary ugliness."
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	]
			As is far too typical in our ] spaces, any action by myself and others introducing ] on these articles is responded to with endless talk page lawyering and complaints from these cryptozoology-associated or -aligned editors, who fill talk pages with page after page of insult-ladden chatter about anything that doesn't fit their preferred messaging. This not infrequently includes insults toward non-adherents abiding by ] and ] (as an example, recently one of the users decided to refer to me as a "", for example). This pattern has been going on for years and is a clear indication of long-term ] and I've frankly put up wth it for far too long.
	*"Perhaps our biased salman-lover gurucoolguy is up to his mischief again!"
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	]
			This is an all too common pattern that many editors who edit in new religious movement, pseudoscience, or fringe spaces will recognize as an unfortunate reality of editing in these spaces on the site.
	*"I strongly feel that GuruCoolguy is a vandal of an extreme nature, who is trying to use a legitimate Misplaced Pages account to falsify facts. he is clearly an srk-hater, and severely hell-bent on calling the film negatively reviewed."
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	]
			I recommend that Paleface Jack be topic banned for off-site lobbying for meatpuppets, if nothing else, as well as likely associated accounts per ]. ] (]) 05:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"In addition, our darling Mis Goody-Goody Oh-so-delicate Feminist has also "he he"d this issue. Isn't that so Little Miss Sunshine?"
	*"Mrs. Seeta Maya, as I said, I'm going to ignore the viewpoints of a mentally reatrded and outdated person. Perhaps I could help you? I'll be freeing up some much-needed consensus space and be doing everyone a favour. Please do not feel bad and hurt that "this happened to a gril" ROTFL! Seriously, I completely support Meryam; she's a she, yet she doesn't wail like a helpless baby whenever she is given a counter-argument. Grow up girl."
	*"Miss Seeta Mayya, I'm giving you pretty much an ultimatum. You are an incompetent nincompoop who doesn't deserve the attention of a street dog. Simply speaking, your claim that you are "a huge srk fan" is so outright laughable that I suggest you to shut your trap rather than embarrass yourself so much. Second, if you love 3 Idiots so much and hate Ra.One so much, I suggest that you get lost from my sight and sound. We are not here to predict the Box Office of any film; only you are so remarkably stupid to even attempt such a thing. Miss Oh-So-Crap, i also suggest that you learn proper Misplaced Pages rules"
	*"Good day Miss Loser."
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Scieberking&diff=460429021&oldid=459792600
			:I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I don't have any disdain for Loxton and Prothero, all I said was that cryptozoologists have historically discussed a large number of "cryptids" which is something you could see from reading cryptozoologist papers ans books. I've previously cited Loxton/Prothero on cryptozoological wikipedia pages ] (]) 06:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"I have no idea why he is acting so prickly and bruised and arrogant with me when I asked him to peer review Ra.One. I think the miserable failure of the Co-ordinator election of WP:Film, hit him really hard." - Addressing Lugnuts
			::This user's actual comment in response to my mention of Prothero & Loxton, a dreaded ]: "Learning about cryptozoologists by reading secondhand sources is a poor way to find out what cryptozoologists have actually done historically" (). Funny how a spotlight on ANI can change an editor's tune. ] (]) 07:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
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			:::Thaf didnt change my tune at all! I mentioned that I personally liked that book before you posted this ] (]) 14:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Scieberking&diff=461296107&oldid=461285319
			::The incident Bloodoffox is referring to happened years ago when I did not know that was even a rule. It was a mistake I have not repeated, nor have I violated any rules since that incident.
	*"Your comments show that you are an srk-hater."
	*"SRK fans are less biased that Aamir or Lallu fans, but obviously you will attempt at proving otherwise."
	*"Equating Don 2 with Ready is enough to show exactly who your allegiance lies with. Please do not give the excuse of generally disliking Bollywood to cover up your obvious dislike for SRK."
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Scieberking&diff=462575230&oldid=462573718#Coloring
			::That being said, Bloodoffox has a history of antagonizing other users associated with the topic. I am not aware of any of the other occasions where he has been harassed by users, so I sympathize. There are bad editors on this site that do that behavior or make edits that are, in kinder words, sloppy. Fringe topics are constrained as they are to avoid pandering or making it a massive advocation for them and should remain within the neutral guidelines that are enforced on fringe topics.
	*"Scieberg, this has to be the lamest excuse. And Fae is clearly using it to his advantage. I seriously doubt his neutrality, and suggest that you talk it over with him."
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	]
			::Yes, the topics do need a lot of work, and its hard to find the few good editors that know what they are doing with fringe topics. I myself follow the topic out of interest, not advocacy, and I rarely edit on it mainly cause of a backlog of other projects. I don't pop on to cause trouble as Bloodoffox loves to accuse me of, among the many personal attacks he has made against me. I have had no such incidents since my mistake way back in the day and I have not made any since then. The sole reason I commented in the discussion was because I could see it was rapidly devolving into an antagonistic nature, and though my words could have been put differently, I always wrote that we "needed to find common ground". It has become a point of frustration with this, because of personal attacks on my character and what I have contributed to this site. I am not a disruptor by any means and Bloodoffox has keep making accusations or belittling comments in regards to me and other users who disagree with him. His aggressive and belittling behavior has a huge role in antagonizing other users and it does need to stop. I might be frustrated, but I cannot see how this does any good with moving projects and topics forwards. Banning me from the topic is unnecessary and overkill. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small>
	*"Its seriously hilarious, and you should check out Scieberking's die-hard attempts to pull down Ra.One and push up Bodyguard."
			:If the only example of off-wiki canvasing is a single blog post from seven years ago, I'm not seeing any case for sanctions. - ] (]) 07:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"And what is even more disgusting is that he is getting some support, especially about his rant that BOI is not reliable. And X.One is going a step further, by mailing stuff rather than talk face to face. Cowards; when they can't use logic or consistency, they resort to below-the-belt methods and cheap arm-twists to get their way. And then they irritatingly preach about "divas"."
			::This is the only clear incident I've encountered. However, there's good reason to suspect that there's more. Note also that although the user is happy to apologize about it when called on it here, the user also never deleted the off-site lobbying on the cryptozoology wiki. ] (]) 07:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
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			::I can see a case for a {{tl|trout}} for the OP, at the very least. (Trout-erang?) - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Meryam90&diff=476798086&oldid=476791553
			::I'm sorry, Bloodofox, if this has been a contentious area to edit in (there are many such areas on the project) but we can't sanction editors based on suspicions, we require evidence of misconduct and if it is off-wiki behavior, it might be more appropriate to send it to ARBCOM. You have provided a narrative statement of how difficult it is to edit in this field but with few diffs illustrating conflict and other editors have providing competing narratives. This isn't your first trip to ANI so you know what is required here for an admin to take action. And if you do provide some more evidence, I encourage you to provide RECENT evidence (like from the past 3 years), not diffs or statements from when an editor was new and unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages policies and practices. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::While the editor and his off-site post was from 2018 (yet somehow claims to not know it was not OK to canvas for meatpuppets off-site), I figured this might be the case and hoped more would come to light about what's going on off-site (I expect more will, in which case I'll return). ] (]) 08:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::As I have said before, I am not used to conflict on the site and naively did that. If you look back at that whole debate, I did reply saying I was not aware that it was bad. If you look at my history of edits, I rarely (if ever) participate in conflict. I prefer to edit like everyone else on here in a constructive and beneficial manner, so all those accusations strike a nerve with me as they are both untrue and slander. As I have said previously, bloodoffox has a history of provoking conflict by aggressive behavior towards other editors, even when those editors are in the wrong they should not be treated with the level of disdain and contempt. Slandering myself or others either based on an isolated and admitted mistake, then constantly bringing it up as "proof" of his claims that I am an instigator of any sort of conflict he has with others is behavior that only inspires destructive conflicts or edits. I have, in the past, reached out to bloodoffox to apologize and also offer assistance with other projects thinking that would mend any sort of anger and hate. This recent incident has proved me wrong and I am sad to see that it has come to this. I never wanted any conflict, just a healthy way of moving forwards to tackle fascinating and notable topics.
			::::
			::::I will admit that it is frustratingly difficult to make edits on fringe topics, I am one of those people that tried to edit some but got frustrated by the overly tight restrictions on the subject (not that I was leaning to one side as some claim I do), which is why I rarely edit on the topic and only do so when I see that there is reliable information benefiting and fitting of the standards set by Misplaced Pages. I love information, and even fringe topics have enough within Misplaced Pages's confines to exist on the site and be a fascinating read for people. I truly hope you read this bloodoffox and realize I never meant you ill or advocate for people harassing you, I want this platform to explore information correctly and efficiently, even if we do not agree with the topic. That is pretty much all that should be said on this matter and hopefully it gets resolved. ] (]) 17:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Rangeblock request to stop ban evasion by Dealer07 ==
	*"I think this problem with HereToSaveWiki is going out of bounds. He has the strong and undivided backing from a select group of editors (one of them being an administrator) who always patrol articles in an attempt to downgrade figures etc. This sort of backing has buoyed him on and he's getting that feeling of being unstoppable, so he'll do whatever he wishes knowing that there will always be that group to back him up in whatever he does, right or wrong."
			{{atop|1=Blocks fall. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	*"And also expect Scieberking to go all-out madly against Ra.One for anything and everything, and don't expect him not to turn away the PR off to some totally unrelated topic as well (much as he tried to do in that Bodyguard discussion). Believe me, he'll do everything possible to ensure Ra.One doesn't become an FA, and he'll get a whole load of support from his close gang of friends and trolls whom he nurtured; he's basically making it a game of numbers, and his friends are extending their wings through mails too."
			*{{checkuser|Dealer07}}
	*"Now we have a very serious problem, as Scieberking has clearly called back his favorite troll Seeta mayya back into business; and I can't believe that she's back to her former antics without even a shred of change."
			*{{rangevandal|62.74.24.0/21}}
	*"And LOL, she wants a higher figure for Bodyguard put up no matter what the cost; and then she says that she is a "fairly neutral and unbiased editor" HA HA HA HA LMAO ROTFL! Talk about SRK hatred. That too stupidly covered-up SRK hatred, exactly like what Scieberking shows."
			*{{rangevandal|2A02:85F:F070:E175:0:0:0:0/64}}
	*"HereToSaveWiki and Seeta mayya are joing hands to expand their trolling activities all over Misplaced Pages. Meryam, be prepared for some seriously irritating problems in whichever SRK article you go."
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Meryam90&diff=475960382&oldid=475958493
			The Greek vandal ] was blocked for edit-warring over nationality and ethnicity. In the past few hours, five new Greek IPs have been rapidly restoring preferred edits: ], ], ], ] and ]. I propose we engage a rangeblock rather than play whackamole on a series of single IPs. Can we block the range ]? Thanks in advance.
	*"Btw, what happened to that hilariously trashy "consensus" going on over Bodyguard, that finally got hijacked by the gang of editors idolizing Salman"
	*"Seriously, that discussion is so lame and one-sides, and just because a certain administrator is part of their gang, the gang members are becoming confident and attempting to over-rule all dissenting voices."
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Meryam90&diff=475938785&oldid=475938570
			Note that the range ] was blocked very recently for the same reasons. ] (]) 06:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"Scieberking is getting himself worked up. Its a common thing among the haters; point out their hatred and they get all huffy. Prove their hatred, they blast up on others."
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Meryam90&diff=474997364&oldid=474996582
			*I've blocked {{IPrange|62.74.0.0/18}} for 6 months and {{u|Ahecht}} has blocked {{IPrange|2A02:85F:F070:E175:0:0:0:0/64}} for 1 month. <b>]</b> (] • ] • ]) 07:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"X.One is simply marvellous; seriously, I've never seen an editor this attached to hatred."
			{{abot}}
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	]
			== Taboo of archaeologists ==
	*"No consensus was obtained simply because consensus-making was purposely disrupted, diverted and man-handled by Scieberking and his gang of trolls, and that's not even a secret (notice that HereToSaveWiki and Seeta Mayya are nowhere here)."
			{{archivetop|This is fundamentally a content dispute, I see nothing admin-actionable here. ] (]) 10:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)}}
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			This is about {{diff2|1267245598}} by {{u|Jahuah}}. They claim that an unprovenanced archaeological object is authentic. Bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss unprovenanced objects in public. It's a taboo of their profession. So, no bona fide archaeologist can give the lie to the authenticity of that object without losing their job. Since if they mention that object in public they get sacked. ] (]) 06:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	]
	*"I'm sorry Scieberking, you are weaving your own trap bit by bit, and your comments are becoming increasingly funny to read. Your stand has been greatly diluted, and your views no longer carry the sort of weight they used to carry before, mainly due to this back-tracking and double-facedness."
	*"Scieberking has been very silly in Ra.One and he is becoming quite silly here as well. A shame, really. Neutrals have already run down Scieberking's arguments (Karthik), and still he stands defiantly. Clap-worthy."
	*"I don't know what sort of nonsense Scieberking is feeding you"
	*"Support Scieberking if you wish, but don't try to pull the wool over my eyes."
	*"As if voting against your opinion is bad. If an editor feels that the range should not be present, see it and keep quiet. Don't go about asking as to why the editor is doing as such."
	*"The editor is required to give the reason of consensus only once; you are to read it and shut your trap. You are not authorized to go about asking as to "why have you posted as this, is it because you are voting?" etc. as it means you are discrediting the consensus. Frankly, I can't care less what you and your gang of buddies say, as you guys are capable only of posting flowery lies and laughable excuses to cover up a horde of shams you carry out in multiple articles. Let this be the last bit of nonsense I hear from you or your gang members. Clear?"
	*"As usual, attempts to curb the discussion into a single editor's favor. Such gross man-handling and arm-twisting is rarely seen in Misplaced Pages. There is no problem in using BOI figures, but you are free to teach SM as otherwise. I won't be surprised to see SM supporting this editor sometime in the near future. Wonderful tactics."
	*"Clearly, X.One has a great fondness for posting all sorts of Misplaced Pages policies, perhaps as a way to show his extensive knowledge."
	*"Sciebrking, get off the high horse. Your answers are not the final truth, and they will be discussed. And your answers have been unsatisfactory, to say the least. Truly, this is getting very silly, but assuredly sense will prevail over illogical insistence."
	*"Ah, the mega-troll is back. I was wondering how this "highly notable" editor, who gets such huge backing from some editors, had failed to appear in this "consensus". And wonderfully, this troll has plainly over-looked so many details that I'm dying to give this troll a proper and fitting answer."
	*"Sorry troll, you got your first rant wrong. Better luck next time."
	*"Best of luck in that endeavour. Two "die-hard fanboys" it is then, and I am loving this title to bits. I can't wait to use the title of "anti-SRK ranter" for you. Please don't cry, or run to your backers for support, or do some more foolish thing."
	*"I suggest this troll to read carefully and thoroughly before performing more trolling and pushing an already-bursting "consensus" to the limit of readability. Adios, and I will be waiting for some more rants."
	*"what more can this editor do other than make expressions eh? Cover-ups and shams are rapidly falling off; hard times lay ahead for the gang."
	*"Troll, I'd suggest you read through the discussion before ranting here; there are numerous film forums where you can rant and rave to your heart's content, but this is certainly not it."
	*"...if there is any sort of neutrality here then X.One will also agree, but frankly I can hardly care as to the whims of some street-side know-all."
	*"Excellent, you find it insulting; you have no idea how I feel talking to something like you. You can keep your mouth shut and not talk to me."
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	]
			:Lol, reporting on me? ] (]) 06:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"This is pure fanboyism and a deliberate attempt by you to deface a Misplaced Pages article with irrelevant (and questionable) facts."
			:Give me an actual reason why the specific seal in question is not authentic? How about that? Quote me an actual scholar who does? If not, then your words mean jack. ] (]) 06:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"Btw, LOL at the "can't take not winning Filmfare" bullshit; this is not a forum for you to spew ranting hatred against a star."
	*"In fact, your name and your level of shit talk is strongly telling myself that you are the infamous Seeta Mayya. Remember the takkar we had? I haven't forgotten it yet; believe me, this time I will throw you out of Misplaced Pages for good."
	*"X.One is blowing the entire thing out of proportion; he has also forgotten exactly how quickly the controversy died down when both SRK-Shirish patched up."
	*"HereToSaveWiki's desperate attempt to bring this controversy into the article should not be encouraged, no matter how many supporters line up behind him."
	*"...is so laughably fanboyistic that I'm finidng it hard to type with all this laughter. Yet, the said editor is getting a load of support for this ridiculous inclusion into the article from X.One."
	*"X.One, become neutral before commenting. I do not like Salman Khan, and I do not go around his page insisting for silly inclusions that warrant no need."
	*"What was most hilarious was the blatant lying going on."
	*"I was laughing like nothing before. Great comedy circus going on here, especially by those who say that they are neutral and we are fanboys. No wonder trolls like HereToSaveWiki and Seeta mayya are encouraged and nurtured. "
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	]
			::According to ], the claim that such object is authentic is unfalsifiable. Since it is taboo to discuss such object in public. So only biased hacks could affirm it is authentic or inauthentic without losing their jobs. ] (]) 06:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"Be prepared for the trial. You will be expected to answer tough questions, and can face an indefinite IP ban if you are found guilty."
			:::Do you think it’s inauthentic? Or not? Please do not be wasting my time here. ] (]) 06:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"HereToSaveWiki, you have been officially summoned to a currently on-going discussion taking place at the Administrator's Noticeboard. You are expected to appear in front of the examining administrators and respond to any questions put forth. Any attempt at misbehavior, trolling and non-consensus related content will be viewed extremely seriously and may endanger an on-the-spot ban."
			::::It think that claim is utterly unfalsifiable, so it cannot amount to ]. See for details {{YouTube|FYgqnlQXWjA|The Shapira Strips: What Are They and Are They Forgeries?}} by Dr. Robert R. Cargill. ] (]) 06:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"You will be expected to respond on the discussion within a day; failure to do so can be viewed in a negative light and you may lose your editing rights. You are expected to defend yourself fully, and no mid-discussion walkouts or tantrums are allowed. Any attempt at such a thing will be dealt with in a very strict manner."
			:::::Ok. Thanks for actually giving me an answer at least. ] (]) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			:::::What exactly are you asking admins to do there? This looks to me like a content dispute. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Meryam90&diff=484395422&oldid=484394745
			::::::Who, me? I’m not asking anything. I just wanted to show how a seal dated by a scholar to the 8th century is indeed an 8th century BC Israelite seal of Hoshea.
			::::::The guy up there has a problem with that and now apparently I’m on the naughty list. ] (]) 07:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::{{re|The Bushranger}} I have explained them at length why this is utterly problematic, previously. I had expected that they will behave. Misbehaving is a behavioral problem. ] (]) 07:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I think I know how to behave, thank you very much. I’m not a petulant manchild. ] (]) 07:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::See ] and ]. ] (]) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Lol, I refuted you there. All you did was attack Dr. Mykytiuk and call into question his scholarship. ] (]) 07:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Besides, what does this have to do with the Hoshea seal? ] (]) 07:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::I don't expect any of you to take my word for it, that why I had ] https://web.archive.org/web/20241209232716/https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/archaeology-today/the-problem-with-unprovenanced-objects/ Suffices to say that unprovenanced objects are ethically and juridically fishy. ] (]) 07:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::So no comment on my refutation of your petulant behavior? ] (]) 07:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Who’s “any of you” by the way? I’m one guy. ] (]) 07:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::You're (only you, not The Bushranger) promoting a claim that is unfalsifiable, unethical, and maybe even juridically problematic. ] (]) 07:18, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::Ooo, that’s a new one. ] (]) 07:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::Nope, if you had read carefully what I told you in 2024, there is nothing new about my claim. ] (]) 07:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::i can tell you’re clearly upset with me. >:). Good. You guys represent scholarship only when it suits your ideology. ] (]) 07:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::It's not about my ideology. It is about: bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss such claims in public. So no bona fide archaeologist could affirm that that object is authentic or inauthentic, because the next day they will have to flip burgers at Target. ] (]) 07:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::Fine whatever, I apologize. ] (]) 07:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Demands to prove a negative are a nonsensical and puerile debating tactic. The editor must cite evidence that the item is considered authentic, or refrain from stating so in WP's voice. Simple as that. --<span style="font-family:Courier">]</span> <small>(] · ])</small> 07:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Is the editor referring to me? ] (]) 07:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:If so, here you go. Lawrence J. Mykytiuk, Identifying Biblical Persons in Northwest Semitic Inscriptions of 1200-539 B.C.E. (Boston: Brill, 2004), 58., https://www.academia.edu/62900860/Iconography_on_Hebrew_Seals_and_Bullae_Identifying_Biblical_Persons_and_the_Apparent_Paradox_of_Egyptian_Solar_Symbols_ABSTRACT_ ] (]) 07:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Since bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss it, you win by default? ] (]) 07:22, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Elmidae, were you referring to me? ] (]) 07:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Bona fide archaeologists will lose their jobs for merely mentioning Mykytiuk's claim. ] (]) 07:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::I was talking to Elmidae. ] (]) 07:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::Yes, they were talking to you. Also both of you take a chill pill for a minute, please - this disucssion is already approaching ] levels of length from the back-and-forth above. Tgeorgescu, you don't have to ] esepecially when it's in response to other editors. Jahuah, {{tqq|i can tell you’re clearly upset with me. >:). Good.}} is not an attitude conducive to cooperative editing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::Fine, fine, I apologize. I’m just angry that my contributions to Misplaced Pages get deleted. I just wanna leave some edits and then I’ll leave this site for good. I promise. ] (]) 08:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::::I also want to make sure my contributions are kept before I leave. ] (]) 08:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:This editor appears to be edit warring across multiple pages to assert historical uncertainties as fact based on unconfirmed and speculative research from biblical archaeology blogs and the like. ] (]) 07:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Oh look, BAR society is no longer reputable because some Misplaced Pages mod said so. ] (]) 07:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::By the way, who am I edit warring with? That’s news to me. ] (]) 07:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::We don't have "mods" on Misplaced Pages. But you have only been editing for a month so it shouldn't be expected that you would know much about how Misplaced Pages works. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Hmph. I guess I’ll go then. Sorry for the trouble I caused. ] (]) 08:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::], I wasn't asking you to leave the project, just pointing out that you are a newer editor. Misplaced Pages is chockful of rules and guidelines and it's not realistic to expect new editors to be familiar with them all. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::No, no. It’s ok. It’s clear that I have caused more problems here than solved. I just hope my contributions will stay, or at least be kept until new data comes. I’ll be out of your hairs soon. ] (]) 10:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{blockquote|it's an unprovenanced object and likely a forgery it was not found in a licensed archaeological excavation it does not possess a credible chain of custody this is very much too good to be true but since people of faith want to believe it and since it's not against the law to use your free speech to make false claims like this forgers will make forgeries and antiquities dealers will put them up for sale and try to make as much money as they can but these kind of forgeries pollute legitimate biblical archaeology and it is why so many scholars myself included do not publish critical reviews of unproven objects once you give them credence their value is increased even if you put a little asterisk by them and designate them as unprovenanced and merely teach the controversy you are still giving them scholarly recognition and debate that the forger and the antiquities dealer so desperately crave publishing unprovenanced objects leads to looting and to forgeries it's that simple|Dr. Robert R. Cargill, transcript}}
			Quoted by ] (]) 08:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::], this is becoming a detailed content dispute which means it probably should be closed as off-topic for this noticeboard. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*For the record, tg's hysterical talk about disgraced archeologists flipping burgers at Target is nonsense. There is vigorous controversy about unprovenanced objects, but no one's losing their job for breaking some alleged taboo. ]] 06:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{archivebottom}}
			== HoraceAndTheSpiders ==
	*"..evidently shows that you are just arguing for your personal dislike.."
			{{atop|1=Attention gotten and message received. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	{{Collapse bottom}}
			*{{userlinks|HoraceAndTheSpiders}}
	{{Collapse top|Ashermadan}}
			Could someone briefly block ] to get their attention, or come up with better way to get them to read their talk page/comply with the ] restrictions. Thanks. ] (]) 11:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	Talk:Shahrukh_Khan#Sharukh_slaps_Sirish_Kunder
			* {{done}}. I've left a note on their talkpage that they will almost certainly be unblocked if they promise to keep away from ARBPIA until they are extended-confirmed. ] 11:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thanks ] (]) 11:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::: {{u|Sean.hoyland}} The editor has submitted a suitable unblock request, so I have unblocked. Please let me know if they stray into ARBPIA again. Thanks, ] 12:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== TTTEMLPBrony and continued addition of unsourced/crufty material, zero communication ==
	*"X.One SOS: Congrats for being the biggest Salman Khan fanboy on Misplaced Pages and being the biggest hypocrite on the internet. If you include the slap incident where SRK slapped some guy, then why won't you include Salman Khan murdering a man in 2002, him hitting countless women, and killing endangered species for fun? Good job! Keep it up!"
			{{atop|1=Blocked. Now CU-blocked. ] (]) 15:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	*"Now that Shirish Kunder has been revealed as the guy who was drunk, messing with women, sending vulgar tests to Sanjay's wife, Mr. Fanboy aka X.One will go cry to his lord and master Salman Khan and leave this topic. How much do you guys want to bet? I would heed the following advice to people like him: Stop being a Salman fanboy and stop trolling SRK's every move. The media has revealed how truly vulgar Shirish Kunder is and no matter how many Salman fanboys like you try to put nonsense like a slap on Misplaced Pages, the fact is that Misplaced Pages is not a place for such news. You may love to spread useless news about some nobody getting slapped but do so in the comfort of you own homes, stop putting rubbish on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is an ENCYCLOPEDIA Mr. X.One SOS. An encyclopedia has no use for a slap. If he had run over someone or if there was a case lodged against him then that would be news. So, Mr. X.One SOS, stop being a Salman fanboy and grow the heck up."
			{{user|TTTEMLPBrony}} has been active since late April 2024. They have a history of adding of unsourced and sometimes controversial material. They have been messaged and warned plenty of times, including by {{u|FlightTime}}, {{u|Doniago}} and {{u|LindsayH}}, but to no avail. Better yet, they haven't responded once on their own talk page.] is required and they do not seem to be willing or able to work with others. I've issued them a warning earlier this week, but looking at their talk page, I see they've been issued stern warnings plenty of times. And despite messages about adding sources, in late December 2024 they created ], which is barely referenced. ]. ] 12:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			:They may be unaware of their talkpage, even though 8 months seems a long time for that. I have blocked indefinitely, with an informative message and a link to their talkpage in the log. Unfortunately that's sometimes the only way to get the attention of a non-responsive user. ] &#124; ] 15:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
	]
			::They know about talk pages, {{U|Bishonen}}, because they have used one at least once; i checked when i first tried to communicate with them to no avail. That being said, i think this is a good use of a block, showing we are serious when we say communication is necessary ~ ''']'''<sup>''']''']</sup> 17:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Indefinitely blocked after only 5-hours, without the user even editing during that period? For a first offence? After only warnings of the lowest level? I'm no sure why ] even created this request, as there'd been zero editing of the page in question since his talk-page warning 3 days earlier! Much of the edits seem to be merely content disputes. I don't see much repition after notification. And we don't even have rules about providing sources. There was no imminent risk of damage here, and I don't think the conditions laid out in ] have been met. And ] most certainly hasn't been met. This is an appallingly awful block ]. Can I that you reduce it to a week or less just to get attention. I'd suggest a day, but the editor is so infrequent, that they may not not notice. Though given they are moderating their behaviour based on what is posted in their talk page, even a block is barely justified. ] (]) 00:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I disagree. When an editor refuses to communicate, it's not uncommon for an admin to block until the editor responds. Even the block notice tells them {{tq|Please respond below this post and start communicating, and you may be unblocked.}} Sometimes it's a case where inexperienced editors simply don't realize that they have a talk page or that people are leaving them messages. This block gently brings it to their attention. ]&nbsp;] 00:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I see nothing in policy for an indefinite. And an indefinite block is absolutely not "gently". It's the kind of heavy-handed authoritarianism that drives the people we need away. There seemed to be edits that were a real attempt to improve Misplaced Pages. And there seemed to be changes in behaviour that were guided by the comments on the talk page. And there hadn't even been any further edits of concern since the previous warning - days ago. Sure, for Misplaced Pages warriors who frequent ANI, a block is just something you deal with; but I don't think that's how many people would see it. ] (]) 00:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Indef is "until you address the issue", not forever. ]&nbsp;] 00:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::I believe we are all aware of that. The issue is that doing so, at this stage, is completely outside of our policy, and that doing so for a minor case like this is completely outside of policy. We can't just make start doing things a different way because the admin feels like it. Our policy says that "Indefinite blocks are usually applied when there is significant disruption or threats of disruption, or major breaches of policy". The threat was neither significant (or even very recent) or a major breach of policy. I note that the user in question was only given 5 hours to respond, but after 4 hours, we'd still had no response from ], perhaps she should also have been blocked for not noticing the discussion (yeah, that's irony, not a proposal). ] (]) 06:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*TTTEMLPBrony has now responded, stating that "I have not realized that accounts have talkpages", so apparently my block worked as intended. Unfortunately, they go on to say that ], and also that they ''allowed'' the brother to use the account. Blithely they claim that "I have already dealt with him" - uh, "already"? Anyway, whether or not I believe them about the brother (I can't say I do), the account is clearly compromised, and must stay blocked. With some hesitation, I've turned the block into a softblock, so that they may create a new account, and have explained that they must absolutely not share it with anybody. I have notified the stewards in case they want to globally lock. ] &#124; ] 03:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC).
			**Just because, ], it worked, doesn't mean that you are allowed to just make up your own rules. (but yeah, sounds fishy ... on the other hand, it's probably a child). Please follow protocol, or hand over your keys. Thanks. ] (]) 06:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			***], please be more polite on these noticeboards. The block Bishonen placed was perfectly fine and it's the kind of thing admins have been doing for years. Nothing in policy forbids it, and I believe {{U|The Bushranger}}'s response is along the same lines. Besides, the editor's edit were, and I'm trying to stay polite myself, not good, as their talk page full of warnings indicates: no edit summaries, no responses, no communication, no knowledge of sourcing and sourcing requirements. Finally, I don't know how young that editor might be, but I do know that they are four years older than when {{U|Ponyo}} blocked them. ] (]) 15:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			****I've noted elsewhere that in retrospect that I look like an idiot, given what else has transpired - and that they are a sock-puppet only makes it worse for me on that. That said, in this circumstance, there is zero support in policy for an indefinite. An indefinite should not be the starting point of a block, especially for an infrequent editor. That policy has been broken before "for years" doesn't make it okay. Fix the policy if you think that's what should be happening. I don't see any impoliteness here. {{abot}}
			== Jypian gaming extended confirmed ==
	*"Scieberking is vandalizing the Bodyguard 2011 page. He is changing it to 253 crores when we still use BOI for HINDI ONLY films. Help me stop him. He has gone crazy with the mad-for-Salman disease."
			{{atop
	*"Scieberking has gone crazy and is trying to pull down Ra.One! The Lallu fan inside him awoke finally."
			| status = Sock blocked
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:MikeLynch&diff=prev&oldid=475997997
			| result = I've run out of sock puns, sorry. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 17:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)<br>
	*"Funny coming from the biggest abuser on Misplaced Pages. Ha ha."
			]
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			Sock blocked. ]]
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=475975360
			}}
			*{{userlinks|Jypian}}
			On ], the user is making pointless edits after having been here for exactly thirty days. Clearly gaming extended confirmed. ]&nbsp;]&nbsp;&nbsp;''<sup style="font-family:Times New Roman">]</sup>'' 12:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I been making real edits since I created my account please take your time to check and I’m sorry for purposely pointless edits for extended confirmed on Day 30. I’m a real and genuine user I just wanted early access to work and edit on important stuff] (]) 13:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"Here's looking at your Salman Khan fans."
			::For what reason are you doing this? ] (]) 13:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			::The thing is, articles that only extended confirmed users can edit are like that for a reason. What kinds of {{tq|important stuff}} were you planning on working on? ]&nbsp;]&nbsp;&nbsp;''<sup style="font-family:Times New Roman">]</sup>'' 13:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=475974519
			:::Donald Trump Hotel Accident ] (]) 13:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Considering you've admitted you've gaming the system you need to voluntary agree to refrain from editing anything that requires EC until you've made 500 real edits. The permission will be removed if you don't follow this. I'd also suggest stay away from the Donald Trump hotel article until you've gotten at least a few thousand edits under your belt since being so desperate to edit an article is usually a sign once you do start editing you'll get into trouble. ] (]) 14:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I have revoked their extended-confirmed permission. They may re-request it from ] after making 500 legitimate edits. —]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;•&nbsp;]) 14:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Im going to edit Donald Trump hotel accident, whatever you want it or not😡 ] (]) 14:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::If you create alternative accounts to try and bypass your primary account's restrictions, you will end up being banned. ]] 14:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::It's unnecessary to threaten or to evade restrictions; you can propose edits via ]. If they are nonsense, though, expect to be blocked as well. ] (]) 14:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Blocked'''. Blocked as a sock by {{u|NinjaRobotPirate}}. ] &#124; ] 15:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
			*:That makes sense. ] (]) 15:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Thanks for the action NinjaRobotPirate. ]&nbsp;]&nbsp;&nbsp;''<sup style="font-family:Times New Roman">]</sup>'' 15:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*<small>As an aside, is it possible to take away the EC permission before it is achieved or otherwise prevent it being automatically gained? I said what I said above because I incorrectly thought they hadn't yet achieved EC. Given this I thought either an admin would need to watch out for them (unless there's an admin bot which can do this) or they could voluntary refrain from using their EC and this wouldn't be necessary. But I checked after and realised I was wrong about them not gaining EC and I'm wondering if I could be wrong about the removal of EC before it's automatically gained. ] (]) 16:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
			*:I think it's possible to prevent an account from obtaining EC by granting and immediately revoking it. That apparently stops the account from getting it automatically because it has obtained EC before. ] (]) 16:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Interesting, thanks. Useful to know for the future. ] (]) 17:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Footballnerd2007 ==
	*"The reference says 210 crores, which cheap Salman Khan fan change it? STOP VANDALIZING THE PAGE IDIOTS!"
			{{atop
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			| result = This is going nowhere fast. Whether or not {{u|Footballnerd2007}} is using an LLM to respond to conversations, they've promised to stay out of other editors' userspace drafts, been notified they shouldn't start RfAs for other editors without speaking to them, and said that they would be more careful with moves. (On that note, I can't warn Footballnerd2007 to not close RM discussions, but I'd highly recommend they avoid doing so until they become more acquainted with community norms.) ] (]/]) 22:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Ashermadan&diff=prev&oldid=476584567
			}}
			I need a second pair of eyes on {{user|Footballnerd2007}} please - apparently a new editor, but they have been closing RM discussions - including one where they introduced a typo, see ] which I have fixed - and they have also been messing around moving my user space pages (see ]) and they have also created ]. None of this is the action of a new editor and my Spidey senses are tingling. ]] 19:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"I'm not going to assume good faith, X.One SOS. Misplaced Pages isn't paying you so stop being so personal."
	*"You better stop trolling me, X.One SOS. Or you'll indeed need to say SOS. Ha ha. Stop ruining Misplaced Pages and stop pretending like you're getting money from it. Stop being a troll."
	*"I don't want to have any dealings with you at all. Go cry home to Lallu."
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	]
			:I don't see an urgent or intractable issue here. Unless/until stronger evidence comes up, I'm going to ] that they're trying to help and suggest ]. ] (]) 19:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"I thought Scieberking was actually confused as first but his double standards are clearly showing through."
			::I'd like to clarify a point in your message. The statement "and they have also been messing around moving my user space pages (see ])" should be corrected. I have only moved one page, not multiple pages. Please adjust the wording to reflect this accurately. ] • ] ⚽ 19:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"I will oppose using that source no matter what. Zubeida, Anikit, Meryam will too. The last thing I will say before I sleep is that you need to stop being a Salman fanboy and think of wikipedia first."
			:::A response like that is not helping with my suspicions and concerns. ]] 20:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"Scieberking must be useless"
			::::What exactly am I being accused of? ] • ] ⚽ 20:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"He is Salman Khan fan who is upset that RaOne broke Bodyguard record. He is not a trade analyst so he does not know what he is talking about. He is two faced and a manipulator."
			:::::You are either an extremely over enthusiastic new editor making mistakes - in which case you need to slow down a lot, and listen ASAP - or you are a sock trying to be clever. ]] 20:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
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			::::::The former is rather accurate. ] • ] ⚽ 20:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Agneepath_(2012_film)&diff=prev&oldid=475346178
			::::::{{u|GiantSnowman}}, if you have evidence, then the appropriate forum is ]. If you don't, then you're liable to get hit with a boomerang for ]/], even if you end up happening to be correct. ] (]) 21:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::And what would my boomerang punishment be? ]] 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::How do I go about making a complaint against him for violating ]/]? ] • ] ⚽ 21:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Response'''
			Hello GiantSnowman,
	*"ADDED WARNING, I AM DONE WITH REVERTING VANDALISM. I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE."
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Agneepath_(2012_film)&diff=prev&oldid=475345653
			Thank you for raising these concerns. I'd like to address the points you mentioned:
	*"THE REFERENCE SAYS 16.5 CRORE (BOI) YOU IDIOT, STOP VANDALIZING THE PAGE. AGNEEPATH IS NOT DOING SO WELL OVERSEAS! STOP IT."
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467357781
			1. '''Botched Page Moves:''' Regarding the page moves, I made an attempt to improve the accuracy and consistency of article titles based on my understanding of the situation. I acknowledge that there was a typo introduced, which I appreciate being pointed out, and I have since corrected it. I’ll be more careful in the future to ensure that such errors do not occur.
	*"WE DO NOT ADD THE FINAL VERDIT UNTIL ALL REVIEWS ARE IN! STOP CHANGING IT BLOODY VANDALS! WE DISCUSSED THIS ALREADY! YOU PEOPLE STUPID?"
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Desi_Boyz&diff=prev&oldid=462473828
			2. '''Messing with User Space Draft:''' I apologise for any disruption caused to your user space draft. My intention was never to interfere with your content. I recognise that user space is personal, and I will be mindful to avoid making any uninvited changes moving forward.
	*"VANDALS, STOP LYING ABOUT REVIEWS! DON'T CHANGE THE RATINGS AND DON'T LIE! I'M SICK OF FIXING THEM."
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Agneepath_(2012_film)&diff=prev&oldid=474039432
			3. '''Creation of an RFA for Cyberdog958''': As for the RFA for Cyberdog958, I stand by my decision to create it. I believed that Cyberdog958 hads demonstrated the necessary qualities for adminship and could be a positive asset to the community. There was no ill intent behind my actions. The RFA was made based on a genuine belief that they were qualified, and I will continue to support nominations that I feel are appropriate based on the contributions and behavior I observe.
	*"STOP VANDALIZING THE BOX OFFICE FIGURES! THIS IS THE 14 TIMES IVE HAD TO FIX THEM!"
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Agneepath_(2012_film)&diff=prev&oldid=473997657
			I hope this clears up any misunderstandings. I strive to make constructive contributions and act in good faith, and I appreciate your understanding.
	*"STOP VANDALIZING THE BOX OFFICE FIGURES! THIS IS THE 12 TIMES IVE HAD TO REVERT VANDALISM!"
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Agneepath_(2012_film)&diff=prev&oldid=473826752
			] • ] ⚽ 20:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"BOX OFFICE INDIA IS THE RELIABLE SOURCE, KOIMOI CANNOT BE USED. EVERY OTHER ARTICLE USES BOX OFFICE INDIA FIGURES. PLEASE STOP VANDALIZING"
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ra.One&diff=prev&oldid=472576708
			:RFA - why didn't you discuss with the editor first? ]] 20:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"WE DISCUSSED IT AND 240 WAS THE AMOUNT AGREED UPON UNTIL BOI PROVIDES DATA FOR WORLDWIDE GROSS ALL VERSIONS"
			::I wasn't aware there was a requirement to do so. I did notify them! ] • ] ⚽ 20:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			:::''Before'' you made the RFA??? No. ]] 20:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ra.One&diff=prev&oldid=472190453
			:I wasn’t pinged about this ANI, but I found it through the RFA message on my talk page. I guess I appreciate the thought, if it was coming from a sincere place, but I would have declined the nomination if I was asked. I’ve never come across this user or interacted with them in any way until now so I’m not sure why they picked me. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:46, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Footballnerd2007, given that Cyberdog958 has confirmed that they have never interacted with you, please confirm how you found them to nominate them for RFA?
			::Similarly, how did you this afternoon, as I similarly have never heard of or interacted with you before today? ]] 21:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{u|Footballnerd2007}} thank you for trying to help out, and I'm sorry that GiantSnowman has chosen to escalate this in the way that he has. Page moves can be tricky, and you might want to sit back and watch the process for a while before participating in it yourself. Regarding RFA, it's a serious decision that people usually mull over for years before they finally agree to submit their names, so it's going to be more than a little jarring to have someone else do it on one's behalf. With the user space, it seems you understand the issue so there's no need to retread that. Going forward, I suggest taking things slow and asking for help whenever you think about entering a new area. I've been doing this for a few years now, and I still reach out to someone with experience in the area if I think I want to try something new! ] (]) 21:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{u|Footballnerd2007}}, the response that you made at 20:08 has formatting that I have only seen before from AI, never from a human editor. Was it made with an LLM? If so please talk to us in your own words. ] (]) 21:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Yes, I have the feeling that a lot of this editor's comments are AI produced. ]] 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I refer you to ]. ] • ] ⚽ 21:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Thanks for that link - I see therefore that other users have raised concerns with you only yesterday about your RM/discussion closes, and yet you have continued to make poor closes today. Why is that? Why therefore should we trust you when you say you won't do it again, given you have done it again? ]] 21:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yesterday I didn't say I wouldn't do it again, today I have, albeit reluctantly, changed my position for the sake of keeping the peace. ] • ] ⚽ 21:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Why did you continue to make the same questionable edits that other editors have previously queried with you? Unless you are deliberately trying to be disruptive? ]] 21:46, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Transparently LLM output. ] (]) 21:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yet they deny using Chat GPT. So either it's ''not'' LLM (and multiple users have raised these suspicions, which I share) and just very odd language, or they are a liar. Which is it? ]] 21:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::What unsubjctive hard evidence do you have to support that allegation? ] • ] ⚽ 21:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I pulled 11 random AI detectors from Google. Of them, seven give a 100% AI rating. One gives 50% and the 3 others give 0%. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The final 3 are 100% accurate. ] • ] ⚽ 21:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::And the 7 others? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I have no explanation. ] • ] ⚽ 21:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Because there is none - it's absolutely AI generated, you don't need a detector for that. While not against policy, it's heavily frowned upon, as it's not ''your'' words but the LLM's. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::And given that you have ''repeatedly'' denied use LLM, you are a liar and cannot be trusted. ]] 21:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I have repeatedly denied using ''ChatGPT'' because I didn't, that's not a lie and you have no evidence to suggest to the contrary. ] • ] ⚽ 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::But you have been using a LLM of some kind, yes? ]] 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::No comment. ] • ] ⚽ 21:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::We'll take that as a 'yes' then - and that you therefore have not been truthful. The tiny modicum of AGF I had has now fully disappeared. ]] 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::So you're accusing me of lying now? As I have said before, I didn't use ChatGPT. ] • ] ⚽ 21:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Yes, I am accusing you of lying. ]] 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::That's a serious allegation, what evidence do you have that I use ChatGPT? ] • ] ⚽ 21:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::: is Exhibit A. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::{{ec}}I'm pretty sure there's LLMs that aren't ChatGPT. But if you're saying "I didn't use a LLM/AI generator at all", then that is . - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::And if you're trying to be clever by saying "I use LLM but not ChatGPT", your comments here have been disingenuous and misleading. You are digging yourself a hole. ]] 21:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I never made any comment about LLMs in general. ] • ] ⚽ 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Please answer this direct question - have you used LLM? If so, why didn't you own up to that when asked? ]] 21:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively. ] • ] ⚽ 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::🤦‍♂️ ] (]) 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::{{ec}}So that's "yes" then, got it. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::] applies (even if only an essay). ]] 22:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::You're not helping your case right now. Even if you're getting dogpiled (''especially'' if you're getting dogpiled) you need to speak clearly and directly. You'll gain far more goodwill by saying you're using an LLM and agreeing to stop. ] (]) 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Thebiguglyalien, do you now understand why my red flags were flagging earlier? There is something off about this editor. ]] 22:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::I don't disagree with your analysis. I disagree with the way you approached it. ] (]) 22:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::A fair criticism. ]] 22:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::I'm sure you've had to deal with this sort of thing far more than I have, so I get that. My philosophy is just that I'd rather give dozens of "cases" that extra chance if it means salvaging one well-meaning productive editor. ] (]) 22:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::Which is what I usually try and do, but the alarm bells just really rang here, and I simply wanted a second pair of eyes on the contribs to tell me "yes it's fishy" or "no you're thinking too much". I did not envision this discussion! ]] 22:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully. ] • ] ⚽ 22:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::Stop choosing your words carefully. I'm trying to give you a chance that isn't often afforded to new editors here, and you're trying to ], which is also against the rules. ] (]) 22:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::{{ec}}Here's the deal - either you used AI, or you {{tqq| my words very carefully}} in a way that is how AI distinctively chooses them. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Here's 4 more AI detectors. Two give 100%, one says 11% (literally the last two sentences), and the other gives 50%. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 22:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Which AI detectors are you using? ] • ] ⚽ 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== possible hoaxes ==
	*"STOP CHANGING THE POSTER! JUST LEAVE IT AS THE DEFAULT ONE WHICH WE HAVE PERMISSION TO USE!)"
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=469663137
	*"WORLDWIDE GROSS IS NOT OUT YET! JUST WAIT A FEW WEEKS!"
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=468631127
			*{{user|Emilioveh}}
	*"THERE IS NO SEQUEL ANNOUNCED. STOP ADDING STUFF WITHOUT REFERENCES."
			*{{user|Emnoé}}
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			*{{user|Larissæ}}
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=468629822
			*{{user|Miguelinor}}
			*{{user|Nose236}}
			The above accounts that have been for creating articles with unverifiable references or with scarce references taken out of context. I recommend reviewing all the articles that these accounts have created here as they may be hoaxes.--] (]) 04:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"ALY KHAN AND NAWAB SHAH DONT HAVE WIKIPEDIA PAGES IT GOES ] GOES TO WRONG PAGES"
			:As a note, you don't appear to have notified any of these editors about this section, which is something you need to do when you open a section on this noticeboard. - ] (]) 05:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
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			::I've notified all the users about this possible hoax issue already. Suggest any action from administrators if possible. ] (]) 05:30, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=468557397
			:Fair enough, that's a valid notion, Fontaine347. Feel free to do so! ] 12:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Edit warring to prevent an RFC ==
	*"PLEASE PROTECT THIS PAGE, THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE MESSING IT UP, SOMEONE PLEASE HELP"
			@] has removed an RFC tag from ] now within .
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=468556825
			] provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list.
	*"NO SEQUEL HAS BEEN CONFIMRED"
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=468319316
			We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an ] problem or a ] that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm ''not'' saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in ''some'' cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute.
	*"ALY KHAN AND NAWAB SHAH DONT HAVE WIKIPEDIA PAGES"
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=468029725
			I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the ]. See you tomorrow. ] (]) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"THE SCREEN COUNT IS 3105 ACCORDING TO LIKE 10 DIFFERENT SOURCES. WHY DOES THIS ARTICLE SAY 2800 WHEN THAT'S WRONG?"
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=468007871
			:As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC.
	*"THERE IS NO ARTICLE FOR ALY KHAN BOLLYWOOD ACTOR, THE LINK LEAD US TO THE KING OF OMAN OR SOMETHING!"
			:I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith.
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			:The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. ] (]) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467940068
			::Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. ] (]) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{u|Axad12}}, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have ''absolutely no'' conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. ] (]) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{u|Axad12}}, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. {{u|WhatamIdoing}}, a {{tl|trout}} for ]ing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template.
			::::The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. ] (]) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be ''falsely accused'' of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that {{tpq|exceptionally serious abuse}}? ] (]) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request.
			:I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request).
			:As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. ] (]) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? ] (]) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content.
			:::Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. ] (]) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::"Asking a second time" is not ]. ] (]) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. ] (]) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the ]. See, e.g., {{xt|An editor ''gaming the system'' is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support.}} Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy.
			::::::I also direct your attention to the item that says {{xt|Gaming the system may include...]ing the consensus-building process}}. ] (]) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to ], which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. ] (]) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not {{tq|highly misleading}}.
			:::I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. ] (]) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? ] (]) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. ] (]) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved.
			::I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. ] (]) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when ] can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one ] book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer.
			:::But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my ] experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. ] (]) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself.
			::::It isn't really relevant here but actually I ''didn't'' expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. ] (]) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor ] with {{u|Graywalls}}, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article.
	*"FART SCENE? REALLY? DELETE THIS NONSENSE. SUCH ABUSE AND IDIOCY WILL NOT BE TOLERATED."
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467720077
			Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue.
	*"BASIC MATH, ADDED ALL THE NUMBERS UP!)"
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467600378
			Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (]) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative.
	*"WORLDWIDE GROSS FROM ALL VERSIONS TO UPDATE THE INFO BOX. UNTIL THEN USE THE BOX OFFICE SECTION OF THE ARTCILE."
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467570916
			'''Proposal''': Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and ], Axad12 and Graywalls should be ] from the Breyers article and its talk page.
	*"DABANGG ALSO RELEASED ON FRIDAY SEPTEMBER 10 2010 so it beat DABANGG. PLEASE LEAVE iT IN SALMAN KHAN FANS! STOP MESSING AROUND WITH THIS PAGE!"
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467578411
			*'''Support'''. ] (]) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"75+% POSITIVE, 85% MIXED TO POSITIVE, ONLY 4 REVIEWS ARE COMPLETELY NEGATIVE"
			**You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
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			*:'''Oppose''': I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard.
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467517057
			*:I have not {{tq|ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate}}, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them.
			*:Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024.
			*:I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make.
			*:Also, the idea that I made a {{tq|hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC}} is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect.
			*:I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time.
			*:Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at ], but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. ] (]) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. , because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see ] for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling ]. {{re|Aoidh}} also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see ] ] (]) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"WE ONLY USE BOX OFFICE INDIA, WE USE OTHER SOURCES ONLY IF BOI DOESNT GIVE US THE NECESSARY DATA AS IN RAONE's and TDP's case."
			*:Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. ] (]) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467498682
			==Complaint against ]==
	*"FIRST DAY DOMESTIC NETT! WE HAVE TO MAKE THAT DISTINCTION BECAUSE USUALLY WE HAVE GROSS WORLDWIDE (GROSS IS BEFORE TAX AND OTHER FEES"
			{{Notice|1=See ] below. |heading=This complaint has been withdrawn.}}
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			<s> Good Morning,
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467454399
			I am writing to formally lodge a complaint against ] for repeated violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on personal attacks (]) and casting aspersions (]) during a .
	*"THESE ARE ALL EARLY ESTIMATES AND USE WORDS LIKE 'AROUND" and "EARLY ESTIMATES" PLEASE WAIT FOR CONFIRMED NUMBERS!"
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467454191
			Throughout the interaction, GiantSnowman has engaged in behavior that appears to contravene Misplaced Pages's behavioral guidelines, including but not limited to:
	*"BOX OFFICE INDIA ONLY! UNLESS DISCUSSED! WAIT A FEW DAYS UNTIL FINAL FIGURES ARE IN!"
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467454014
			'''Casting aspersions without evidence:'''
	*"ONLY WORLDWIDE GROSS FIGURES GO THERE. THEY ARE NOT IN YET SO DONT PUT NETT FIGURES IN THE INFO BOX. THERES A SECTION FOR BOX OFFICE NETT FIGURES DOWN BELOW!"
			* GiantSnowman repeatedly accused me of engaging in disruptive behavior, suggesting ulterior motives without providing any verifiable evidence.
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			* For instance, accusations of using ] to generate responses without concrete proof.
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467452493
			* Statements like “You are a liar and cannot be trusted” and other similar assertions lack civility and violate the principle of ].
			'''Aggressive tone and unwarranted accusations:'''
	*"BOX OFFICE INDIA IS USED, DONT QUOTE SOME RANDOMASS SOURCE!"
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			* The user's tone throughout the discussion has been hostile, escalating to direct personal attacks:
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467378199
			* Referring to me as a “liar” multiple times.
			* Suggesting that I have been “deliberately disruptive” without presenting any factual basis.
			'''Violation of ] and ]:'''
	*"JUST WAIT TO ADD THE OVERALL VERDICT ABOUT MIXED REVIEWS ETC WHEN ALL THE REVIEWS ARE IN. SO MANY REVIEWS ARE PENDING! PLEASE. DON'T JUMP THE GUN LIKE RA.ONE. WE MADE A HUGE MISTAKE WHEN WE JUMPED THE GUN WITH RA.ONE"
			* Misplaced Pages encourages editors to respond constructively to newcomers' efforts. However, GiantSnowman’s behavior has been dismissive and accusatory, discouraging participation and creating a hostile editing environment.
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Don_2&diff=prev&oldid=467353164
			As an administrator, GiantSnowman is expected to set an example by adhering to Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies and fostering a collaborative environment. However, their actions in this instance fall far short of the standards expected of administrators, which further exacerbates the seriousness of this issue.
	*"TOOK OUT THE LAST PART OF MY PLOT BECAUSE IT RUINS THE WHOLE MOVIE IF YOU HAVENT SEEN IT. WE"LL ADD IT IN LATER!"
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ra.One&diff=prev&oldid=466853929
			I understand that discussions can sometimes be contentious, but I believe there is no justification for violating ] or ]. I respectfully request that administrators review the linked discussion and take appropriate action to address this behavior.
	*"CRITICIZED FOR "OVERRATING"? WHY WOULD YOU ADD SOMETHING. AND THE SOURCE JUST GIVES TARAN'S RATING!"
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Love_Story_2050&diff=prev&oldid=466394712
			If any additional information or clarification is needed, I am happy to provide it. My intent is to ensure a respectful and collaborative editing environment for all Misplaced Pages contributors.
	*"THE GUY WANTED TO TRAVEL BACK IN TIME BUT ACCIDENTALLY TRAVELLED TO 2050! JESUS. GET YOUR PLOT RIGHT!)"
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Sohompramanick&oldid=465157247
			Thank you for your time and consideration. </s>
	*"DONT VANDALIZE THE RA.ONE PAGE. THE SOURCE SAYS THE COST IS 135 CRORES. YOU HAVE BEEN REPORTED FOR THIS ACTION."
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	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ra.One&diff=prev&oldid=465156256
			] • ] ⚽ 12:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"THE SOURCE SAYS 135 CRORES SO STOP CHANGING THE NUMBER!"
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=List_of_awards_and_nominations_received_by_Shahrukh_Khan&diff=prev&oldid=463828795
			:The discussion I raised was at ], now closed. I raised concerns about this editor, who has (in brief) - undertake botched and inappropriate RM closures; re-factored other editor's talk page posts; randomly nominated another user with whom they have never interacted before for RFA; and messing with my user space draft. None of that was the conduct of a new editor here to learn the ropes, and I wanted a second pair of eyes.
	*"SHOULD BE A , AFTER BEN KINGSLEY AND BEFORE ETC"
			:In the course of that discussion, it became highly suspect to multiple users that this user has been editing with LLM. They denied using Chat GPT and, when questioned further, refused to answer. That is why I said this user is a liar and cannot be trusted, and I stand by that assertion. ]] 12:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			::Pinging other editors who were involved in that ANI discussion or have posted concerns/advice on this user's talk page - {{ping|Liz|voorts|Folly Mox|Tiggerjay|Extraordinary Writ|Tarlby|The Bushranger|Thebiguglyalien|Cyberdog958}} - think that is everyone, apologies if not. ]] 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Bodyguard_(2011_Hindi_film)&diff=prev&oldid=463250533
			::Thank you for your speedy response. Now let other admins add their point of view. ] • ] ⚽ 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Given the closed section above - which was closed for a very good reason - I'd suggest that coming back to this page to complain and using an LLM to do it is a ''spectacularly'' bad idea. The community only has limited patience when dealing with editors who are causing timesinks for other edits, and I suspect that the section above was your limit. ] 12:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. ] • ] ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::] is worth reviewing. It may already be too late for you to withdraw your complaint, but it's probably worth an attempt. --] (]) 12:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{ec}}Please, any passing uninvolved admin, block the OP now. Not least for using an LLM to generate a complaint that someone accused them of using ] to generate responses. Enough of our time has been wasted. ] (]) 12:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Again, this is mere conjecture. ] • ] ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Continuing to deny the obvious - especially when Tarlby ran your posts through multiple LLM checkers - is really not helping your case. For me, it shows you are not here in good faith and that you absolutely cannot be trusted. ]] 12:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::No, it's called people have eyes. Using LLMs this way is highly disrespectful and frankly disruptive. Boomerang block for ] seems appropriate. ] (]) 12:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::+1 to Phil Bridger. What struck me in the prior thread, over and over again, was how repeatedly evasive he was. "I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT..." "I never made any comment about LLMs in general." "I have no explanation." "Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully." "Which AI detectors are you using?" "The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively." And so on, and so on, and so on. Footballnerd2007 has been given chance after chance to answer plainly, without Wikilawyering or weasel-wording, and has instead stuck to the tactic of deflect, deflect, deflect. I don't know where Footballnerd2007 got the notion that the Fifth Amendment was the law of the land on Misplaced Pages, and that no boomerang can touch him as long as he admits to nothing. Let's just disabuse him of the notion. ] 12:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Retaliatory BS; this should be closed immediately. ] ] 12:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== CBAN proposal ===
	*"THE REFERENCE SAYS 227 CRORES, NOT 252 CRORES. STOP VANDALIZING THE PAGE!"
			* I propose a ''']''' for Footballnerd2007, appealable no sooner than six months from now (and then once per year thereafter), alongside a ban on using LLM's which would remain in effect until specifically contested. At the time of writing, Footballnerd2007 has only 142 edits, a ''significant'' number of which are right here at WP:ANI. They are clearly a massive ] time sink. I urged Footballnerd2007 to withdraw this complaint and warned about ] and that clearly didn't land. I think it's time for everyone else to get back to regular editing. --] (]) 12:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			*:*'''Support''', obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. ]] 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ra.One&diff=prev&oldid=463101304
			*:*:I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. ] • ] ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? ] 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. ]] 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::I'll respond to this in depth later today. ] • ] ⚽ 13:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::I concede that I've been backed into a corner and now I need to do the right thing, stop with the defensive act and own up to my mistakes which I'll do in my statement later this afternoon. ] • ] ⚽ 13:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. ] (]) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::::I had my legal head on with the philosophy "defend until you can no more" - I now concede on reflection this is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages and that my actions were not the right way to go and for that I will take full responsibility in my statement. ] • ] ⚽ 13:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::It's too late to withdraw now. You have to take responsibility for your behaviour. ] (]) 13:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*{{ec}}<s>'''Support'''</s> - on top of what's been posted on this thread, FN2007 has ] by archiving without a link to the archive on the fresh talk page, without responding to ]. They also ] to add things they didn't say when closing a RM discussion, and haven't responded ]. These things alongside their LLM use (and subsequent wikilawyering "technically I only said I didn't use ''ChatGPT''" responses), refusal to listen to good advice, and everything else in this topic, I think a community ban would be a good idea. ]&nbsp;] 13:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC) ''Update'' - striking support for cban, I think footballnerd's recent responses and CNC's offer of mentorship indicate that we may be able to avoid it. ]&nbsp;] 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. ] • ] ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? ]] 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::I will go back and thank her for that. Because I had been advised that your actions could have violated WP policy and thought it would be a good way to deflect the blame, in heinsight it was absolutely the wrong course of action. I would like to draw a line under this whole sorry situation and move on with the reason that I joined once my statement has been published and the subsequent discussion has concluded. ] • ] ⚽ 14:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:(another {{ec}} To clarify, I don't think Footballnerd is doing anything malicious or deliberately trying to time-waste. I think they are a misguided new bold editor who unfortunately doesn't listen to advice and is stubborn to self-reflect. If this cban goes ahead I urge them to appeal in 6 months with a better understanding of how wikipedia works, with a more cautious editing style and more acceptance of community opinions. ]&nbsp;] 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::I am not being malicious, there was only one motivation for my actions - wanting to help.
			*:*::My comments on this and the above thread have been ill judged.
			*:*::As for the ban, I'd like to ask that I be spared at this moment in time in view of my above comments and the concession statement that I will be posting when I return home. ] • ] ⚽ 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... ]] 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::Because I'm posting from my phone and I'm not at home. When I return to my PC later today I'll make the statement. ] • ] ⚽ 14:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*'''Support CBAN'''. Using a chatbot to generate discussion then denying it when called out is already deeply contemptuous. Turning around and filing a chatbot generated revenge report for people not believing your lies about not using a chatbot? Words fail. ] (]) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. ] • ] ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. ]] 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. ] • ] ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. ]] 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::::Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. ] • ] ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::::Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. ]] 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::I admit that I did, I just saw the line of "I didn't use ChatGPT" as an easy 'get out of jail card'. ] • ] ⚽ 14:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:{{a note}} for ], just to inform you there is a ] that you may not have seen. I was about to send generic pings to !voters of this section, but it appears all other editors are aware of this proposal already (or voted afterwards at least). This isn't intended to influence your decision, only to provide you updated information. ] (]) 23:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' as this behavior is clearly ]. ] (]) 15:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' CBAN as this editor has caused a monumental waste of the volunteer time of other editors, which is our most precious commodity. This is an encyclopedia, not a robot debating society. ] (]) 18:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. First choice would be an indefinite block. Despite the user's sudden acts of contrition, I don't trust them. I don't see them as an asset to the project. As for their recent statement that some think is AI-generated, my ''guess'' is it's a mixture, maybe we should call it AI-assisted. However, I wouldn't support an indefinite block if it were just that. What preceded the complaint by GS and their conduct at ANI was egregiously disruptive.--] (]) 18:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' - I say give them some rope. There is good discussion going on below, and I don't think anything is gained by blocking an editor who does at times add value. We can always revisit this later - and presumably the action would then be quick and obvious. BTW, I thought we all used AI to some extent - certainly when I misspell words like "certainyl" I then accept the AI in chrome changing the spelling. Or even improving the grammar if I turn on those options. Also ]'s numerous draft articles in his userspace always confounds me. I've asked them before to write these articles in draft-space where there can be a collaborative effort, rather than their userspace where they won't let anyone else edit. ] (]) 00:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Haven't voted in this proposal yet, am abstaining for now per trying to avoid advocacy as potential mentor. The two points I will however question is: would a CBAN solve these issues or postpone them until a later date? Would a 1–2 month mentorship more likely bring about the results of reform or failure much sooner? If we want to talk about ] as we have do so, it might be worth ] the time wasted in not mentoring a newish editor into the folds of the encyclopedia. ] (]) 00:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			===MENTOR proposal===
	*"EROS INTERNATIONAL CFO KAMAL JAIN SAID IT IS AT 230 CRORES IN AN INTERVIEW"
			{{quote|] commitments to uphold by ] for a suggested one–two month period. Mentor: ].
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ra.One&diff=prev&oldid=458390617
			# Abide by all policies and guidelines and ] to advise given to you by other editors.
	*"SHAHRUKH SAID BUDGET OF RA.ONE IS 130 CRORES ON TALKING CINEMA WITH TARAN ADARSH, HE SAYS MEDIA IS SPECULATING AND IS WRONG"
			# No page moves (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval from mentor.
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			# No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it.
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ra.One&diff=prev&oldid=457712886
			# No more dishonesty, being evasive, or using AI of any kind in discussions due to laziness.
			# Avoid commenting on all admin noticeboards (unless summoned). If there is a problem, seek advise from mentor.
			# Avoid reverting other editors (either manually, part or in full), unless obvious vandalism.
			}}
			This goes a bit beyond original requirements, and the last two are effectively preventative measures to try and avoid problems arising. An editor involved exclusively on footy articles has limited to no need for involvement in admin noticeboards. ] (]) 17:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"ROTTEN TOMATOES REVIEW ADDED, NO ONE SHOULD REMOVE THIS BECAUSE IT IS THE FIRST UNBIASED ONE"
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ra.One&diff=prev&oldid=457712729
			:I agree to those principles and am grateful for the mentorship opportunity! ] • ] ⚽ 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"ADDED FIRST NONBIASED RATING FROM ROTTEN TOMATOES"
			::Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. ]] 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			:::Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. ] (]) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ra.One&diff=prev&oldid=457626400
			::::I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. ]] 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. ] (]) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::No bad - let me rephrase if that helps. I am not opposed to mentoring in place of the current CBAN proposal. ]] 18:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			====Discussion====
	*"TARAN ARARSH UPDATED IT, BOX OFFICE INDIA IS WRONG)"
			*Going to chime in here as someone involved in footy related articles. I've reviewed some of the editors contributions, and despite all the issues raised in this topic that are very problematic, the user has seemingly made good contributions to football related articles. I otherwise don't doubt that the user previously edited with an IP (I'm pretty sure which IP this is based on edit histories, but assuming good faith it's not part of this topic and not relevant either so won't bother referencing). I only state this to deflect from suggestions that this editor ''could be'' a sockpuppet, as I strongly don't believe to be the case, instead I suspect about 18 months of low-key editing experience up until now. It's therefore a great shame FN2007 went down this road, even if appears to have now retracted the original complaint. Hopefully they can take on board the requests to avoid controversial edits, especially at other user talkpages and such. I'd like to think this is a case of a user trying to run before they can walk, and if they now pace themselves it could work out in the long-term, but alas the damage has also already been done here it seems. Also as a personal suggestion to the editor, if you're here for football articles, then you should be aiming to stay well away from admin noticeboards as they will rarely ever concern you. Generally there ''should be'' relatively low controversy editing football articles, even if most remain contentious topics as BLP. So if football is your editing remit here, you're doing it very badly by ending up at a noticeboard, equally so by opening this topic, even with your good contributions. I am therefore reluctantly offering to act as a ], if the user can commit to the general policy and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, in the hope of not losing a participant in the under edited area of women's football articles. ] (]) 14:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			*:Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. ] • ] ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Varunn_pandya&diff=prev&oldid=457467684
			*::This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. ] (]) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per ], as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. ] (]) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::That's definitely OK with me. ] • ] ⚽ 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Mainly just everyone else at this point it seems. ] (]) 14:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Should I ping? ] (]) 14:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I gladly and humbly '''accept''' your mentorship offer. ] • ] ⚽ 14:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Just to be clear, this would be a ] offer, nothing more than that. Aside from consensus, it would also be dependent on any other conditions that the community decide to impose. ] (]) 14:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Completely not related but wanting to chime in.
	*"STOP VANDALIZING OUR RA.ONE ARTICLE. IT RECEIVED MOSTLY POSITIVE REVIEWS AS STATED. DO NOT CHANGE THE INTRODUCTION AGAIN."
			:I admit that at first, as a newbie edit, I was kind of surprised on how @] handled things, and I can understand the perspective that it seems to be in violation of assume good faith, but I’d like to point out that as someone who was in the same situation as @], it’s not really in violation of Assume Good Faith. He just is very organized but tries his best to help others. Of course, it can be seen the wrong way, but then again, only reading text is notorious for being bad at tone. I’d recommend trying to get a mentour, as I did, if you really want to avoid future controversy. I’d recommend FootballNerd to take up CNC’s mentorship offer. ] (]) 14:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
			::Furthermore, no one is perfect. Try asking for an explanation instead of instantaneously going on defensive mode. That will always help. Be humble. ] (]) 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ra.One&diff=prev&oldid=457454121
			::I have taken up the mentorship offer. ] • ] ⚽ 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). ] (]) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. ]] 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Agreed, @] maybe hold off on pings for now. ] (]) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Alright, sounds good. ] (]) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Per ] I think pings are appropriate now. ] (]) 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as {{u|CommunityNotesContributor}} has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor. ] (]) 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. ] (]) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I'm now home and will start drafting after lunch. I'll send it you before posting it here. ] • ] ⚽ 14:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I see a list of conditions but not an explicit proposal for mentoring. Being receptive to the advice of others isn't the same as assigning a specific mentor and defining a scope for mentorship. Can the proposal be clarified, or else renamed? ] (]) 18:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed ]. ] (]) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Thanks for . I did not read the discussion until after you , so it was not evident that a specific mentor had been named. ] (]) 02:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Response from Footballnerd2007===
	*"STOP MENTIONING OTHER FILMS IN RA ONE ARTICLE. MENTION 7 AM ARRIVU IN ITS ARTICLE. ILL REPORT YOU IF YOU DONT STOP."
			Good Afternoon all,
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ra.One&diff=prev&oldid=457453705
			Can I start by making something unequivocally clear: my behaviour over the past 24 hours has been unacceptable and has resembled that of a lawyer acting in court, trying to defend my actions in an overly strategic way. This course of action was wrong, and I apologise for it.
	*"FILMFARE REVIEW IS OUT. REDIFF ALREADY MENTIONED DOWN BELOW. TOP PART FOR TOP CRITICS."
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ra.One&diff=prev&oldid=457412307
			I’ve been reflecting on the situation, and I want to start by saying I’m really sorry for my actions and the way I’ve handled things. I know I messed up, and I feel it's important to acknowledge that. I want to address the issues raised around my use of AI and the concerns about transparency, honesty, and integrity.
	*"THESE PEOPLE ARENT PROPER MOVIE CRITICS! WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? PEOPLE LIKE OMAR QURESHI, KHALID MOHAMMED, etc. are"
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ra.One&diff=prev&oldid=457410976
			To make it clear, I did use Artificial Intelligence tools to help me with editing and drafting content. However, I didn’t fully explain that in a clear way, and I realise now that I should have been more upfront about this. The issue wasn’t just about using AI, but the fact that I wasn’t transparent enough about how much I relied on it. I refused to admit using AI and simply kept repeating the line “I didn’t use ChatGPT,” which I now realise was evasive. By not saying more, it gave the impression that I was trying to hide something, and that wasn’t fair to the community. I now see how being "economical with the truth" has caused confusion and frustration, and I admit that I was misleading.
	*"DO NOT ADD WEBBLOGS, ONLY GO WITH PROPER CRITICS! CANT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT!)"
	________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
	{{Collapse bottom}}
			The issue raised by User:GiantSnowman about me didn’t just focus on the use of AI but also on the way I was interacting with others. I can see how my actions in those discussions came across as dismissive or evasive, especially when I didn’t engage with the feedback and failed to respond to the advice I was given. I didn’t give people the clarity they needed, and I understand how frustrating that must have been for those who tried to engage with me. I admit I attempted to “give them the run around.” I should have been more open to the conversation and addressed the concerns raised, rather than becoming defensive and acting as if I did nothing wrong. This is not an attempt to justify it, but I want to admit that the reason I used AI was mainly due to laziness and an attempt to sound more knowledgeable in order to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy.
	:Well, as its something of a rule that an editor should respond to a call at ANI, I am writing here. That's about it. I have made no statement, and I am not going to make one. I am not going to defend myself. I can partially predict the outcome of this, but I am not saying anything and I'm not going to do anything. I leave it to ANI to do whatever it think correct. ~*~''']]'''~*~ 11:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			I also want to address how I behaved today. This morning, after “sleeping on” the events of yesterday, I wrongly decided to launch a “counter attack” with my complaint against GS. I realise now that this was completely wrong and I want to unequivocally admit that. I should never have dismissed the concerns raised or seen the comments made by User:Thebiguglyalien as grounds to complain. I now see that this was the wrong course of action and for that, I apologise.
	*We've . Civility is not optional, Ankit, and if you're not sure if something would be uncivil or not, then assume it would be and don't say it. You ''need'' to slow down, take a deep breath, and think about what you're saying before you say it. If you're unable to do that, you may end up blocked. ] (]) 15:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	**Looking at the above report, I believe one can immediately get an impression that it is not a question of "may end up blocked" anymore. It has gone on for a considerably long time, and all possible solutions of preventing it were implemented, just for nothing. <font face="Batik Regular">]</font> 16:02, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	***I would (personally) be willing to hold off on a block if we got some indication from Akitbhatt that he understands why his behavior is an issue and that he intends to change it, but I agree with you that given his refusal a few lines up to engage with this thread, the likelihood of that happening is small. ] (]) 16:22, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::{{ec}}Ankitbhatt has been here long enough to know what might get him blocked; he should have taken a hint when he came to ANI the first, second or third time for civility issues. I don't support him getting blocked outright; I ask for completely civil behavior from him, closely monitored by a trusted user. ''']]''' 16:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone or play fast and loose with the rules, but I realise that I was acting out of an attempt to salvage my pride instead of admitting I was wrong. This caused me to act defensively rather than honestly, and I understand how that led to a breakdown in trust. I take full responsibility for that. I never meant to cause confusion or frustration, but I can see how I did. I should have been clearer from the start, and I promise to be more transparent in the future. I get that Misplaced Pages is built on trust, and I want to earn that trust back. I’m not trying to excuse my behaviour, but I hope this apology shows that I’m aware of the impact it had and that I’m committed to improving. I pledge that I won’t use AI for WP editing in the future. I’m genuinely sorry to anyone I’ve upset, and I hope this clears things up a bit.
	I would just like to point out that I have not stated I will refuse to listen to the comments on this thread; I only said I won't defend myself and I won't comment. I leave it to ANI to decide, and I can predict what happens afterwards but I am not going to say anything. I have tried my best to show both sides of the discussions but I am just tired of people not listening, not understanding. I would just like to be left alone. If a complete interaction ban is what you deem fit, I have no problem and anyways I don't have the energy or willingness to protest. I'm just sick of this. I only wish to edit in Misplaced Pages, and I feel my contributions are good even though most editors don't think so. ~*~''']]'''~*~ 16:39, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	*But that's what we're telling you, Ankit - you need to comment here. If you don't say anything, we have no way of knowing if you understand what's going on or if you intend to change anything. This issue is not something that can be handled by an interaction ban, because the issue isn't that you can't get along with one person, it's that you can't get along with almost ''anyone''. This is a collaborative project, where people have to work with others, and you can't be "left alone" in the sense you seem to want, where you never have to speak to anyone or explain anything you do. <p>So, here's what needs to happen: You need to express to us some understanding of ] and that you understand that the way you've been acting isn't following that policy. You then need to commit to adhering to ] in the future, from this moment on, everywhere on Misplaced Pages. Even to people you don't like. Even to people you think are stupid or doing things all wrong. Your behavior has been disruptive enough, for long enough, that if you can't or won't rein in your incivility starting today, you're going to be blocked until you are able to assert the necessary level of control over yourself. ] (]) 17:22, 4 April 2012 (UTC)</p>
			] • ] ⚽ 16:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I have been able to get along with a considerable number of editors, many of whom are good friends. There were instances of temper loss for a few editors which has more than patched up (Bollywood Dreamz, Meryam90). I share an excellent working rapport with some editors, and I am in pretty good terms with most people I meet. The above comments are select and directed only towards a few users. Your claim is unfounded and is your personal opinion; I am giving a nice and completely non-angry suggestion, because many have ecstatically "proved" my "uncivil and egotist" behavior through this harmless suggestion: go through more details and see the other things. I would not like to point out how many of the things in the above "report" have been placed in a negative light, but if you are going to look at the superficial alone (such as the report above) and not look deeper, it is unfortunate. That's all. You can force me to accept that I don't get along with anyone; you have caught me at the right time because I don't want to protest so it is easier to force things out. But it will turn me off from really enjoying my editing, and that's my loss. I am well-aware that most of my contributions have been looked upon with continuous disdain, though I still struggle to understand why, but I want to enjoy my editing just like any other contributor to the project. ~*~''']]'''~*~ 17:36, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			:Thank you for this. ]] 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::No one's judging your contributions; I, for one, appreciate and like your contributions. Its your interactions with other editors that's being raised as a concern. Are you, in any way, disowning all the comments (which have been called incivil) that have been shown above? You may have hundreds of other civil comments, but that does not take away the uncivil ones you have made. Negative light? Of course its in a negative light, we're here to tell you why those are bad. ''']]''' 17:51, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			::You're welcome, I'd really like to put this situation behind us and move on. ] • ] ⚽ 17:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Well, if that was written without AI tools (GPTzero still says it was 100% written by AI, but it looks a lot more "human" to me than your previous efforts) then you can at least write without them. ] (]) 17:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::To be fair, @], I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... ] (]) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:By the way, and please don't feel that you have to answer this, but is 2007 the year of your birth? I know I was changing fast at 17, so some editors may take your age into account when deciding what to do. ] (]) 17:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from ]. ] • ] ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I appreciate the maturity in acknowledging your errors. I’d like to clarify this as it’s something I avoided mentioning.
			:The use of AI is not prohibited but heavily frowned upon. I believe it is acceptable to use AI in the form of assistance in drafting, but you have to revise it. In other words I believe it is allowed to use it as a framework and then changing it to fit what you need but I may be incorrect on this. Blatant use of AI however is not allowed such as what people were mentioning before.
			:<br>
			:English is my second language and as such, I have historically used AI to help me with drafting things and then changing it fully to be in my words so that I’m not completely starting from scratch. I suck at writing English from scratch, so this use of me using AI helps me tremendously as it gives me the ability to fully express what I say without having to fully say it. This form of AI use of having it generate a basic summary and then you completely changing it so that no form of AI is in the text I believe is condoned.
			:<br>
			:I am not sure about the exact specifics of what AI use is allowed but I’d like to point out that I am able to write when it’s my thoughts but then when it comes to having to write stuff within guidelines and manual of styles, I end up tensing up and my brain completely cannot create anything. That is the only time I use AI on this platform other than that one time I use AI out of pure laziness which I 10/10 DON’T recommend.
			:<br>
			:I am not sure if this above is correct so I would appreciate if someone here especially @] clarified if this is allowed or not. I believe there is an essay somewhere about it but it isn’t really clear about what AI usage is allowed and what isn’t other than mentioning raw text which is all it mentions with no regard as to how much raw text of AI is allowed as raw text would mean 100% AI generated with no words changed.
			:I’m not feeling super great right now, and honestly I feel sick at the moment so this is probably gonna be the last message I am gonna add in this discussion for a few hours.
			:<br>
			:Cheers,<br>
			:] (]) 19:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::You are looking for ]. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. ]] 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Courtesy pings to increase discussion as the following pings all commented in the sections prior.
			:@]
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			:{{ping|Black Kite}}
			:{{ping|Bugghost}}
			:{{ping| isaacl}}
			:{{ping| CommunityNotesContributor}}
			:{{ping| Randy Kryn}}
			:{{ping|Bbb23}}
			:{{ping| Cullen328}}
			:{{ping| Simonm223}}
			:{{ping|Folly Mox}}
			:{{ping| Bgsu98}}
			:{{ping|Yamla}}
			:Sorry for the delay CNC.
			:Cheers, <br> ] (]) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. ] (]) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Please don't send mass ping ] to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. ] (]) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Yes, of course, a very good statement of contrition and hope for future editing (hopefully not all AI). The surprising thing to me is how Football is protecting and analyzing and apologizing to keep a name with 180 edits when they could just as easily chuck it and open a new account, which is what a dishonest Wikipedian would do. Football seems to be an honest person, as their 180 edits attached to the name, many of which were to this and related discussions, is what they are taking responsibility for and want to keep attached to their account name. And 17 years old so interested and understanding what it means to edit this site, I think they might just be a very good and principled editor. ] (]) 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:49.206.48.151 ==
	::::I would appreciate it if you would also look at things a bit broader. I was responding to Fluffernutter's comment that I don't get along with "almost anyone", which is untrue. As I said, you can force me to accept that I don't get along with anybody ever. I have not disowned any comment, and I have never said that; point out where I said such a thing. Look, I do not deny that the comments were uncivil; all I ask is that you look at the arguments in a broader context and not fling observations basing only on the comments posted here, as they only show select negative comments without full context or without explanations. ~*~''']]'''~*~ 18:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	:::::Erm, it was my question, I wasn't accusing you of disowning any comment. I don't think you get the point; whatever may be the context, it is not a justification for continued uncivil behavior. You need to understand that being uncivil hurts the collaborative nature of the project. ''']]''' 19:24, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
			Please keep ] off my talk page . See also . --] (]) 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	===View by ]===
	Ankitbhatt is a useful editor; on its own, his content contributions are very good. Having said that, his interactions with people who disagree with is a matter of serious concern. User:Secret of success compiles a collection of his uncivil comments, and that, really, tells the story here. Ankitbhatt has the habit of immediately classifying dissenting voices into what he calls a group of "SRK haters" or "Salman lovers", and behaves as though there's an anti-SRK cabal that's set out to destroy anything that is remotely positive about SRK and his films. The nature and tone of many of his comments are nothing but confrontative, and often destructive to the congenial atmosphere that should ideally be maintained onwiki. As a result, many discussions which could have found an easy compromise end up being long and winding (]); it does nothing to help the project, really, and ends up souring the mood of other editors as well.
			:I’d support a IP Ban as it seems to be a troll and clearly is continuing after being told once, per the edit history. ] (]) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	This, apart from his partially nonsensical talk page notice (]) in which he "prohibits" users from digging up and reproducing talk page archives. Some users may remember his ANI report and the subsequent "Official notice" doled out to a user ]. I can dismiss these as amateurish (though he's far from being a newbie here), but the civility issues are serious.
			:I have given them a warning - if they continue, let me know. In future you should try and talk to them before coming to ANI. ]] 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::They continued . ] (]) 15:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Blocked, thanks. ]] 15:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== 2403:580E:EB64:0::/64: disruptive changes to UK nationalities ==
	I do not advocate any kind of sanction being placed on Ankitbhatt; I only ask him to maintain civility, and if deemed necessary, I would like a mentor being asked to monitor his interactions closely.
			{{atop|1=Blocktannia rules the page. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			] is an intermittent but disruptive editor whose last edit was today (my time) and who seems to have quite a bee in their bonnet about describing people or things as English ... they very much prefer them to be described as British. They use highly emotive and inflammatory edit summaries to make their point, ranging from ] to ]. They have been warned in ] and ] in ]. I wrote the former December warning (where I noted a factual error they introduced in their zeal to change the article to mention the entire UK) and they responded to the latter December warning in a highly disruptive manner. I think some sort of block is in order, at the very least. It's hard to communicate with /64 editors like this but I and other editors have tried our best, additionally including ], which they haven't violated in their last two article edits (though one could argue ] violated their warning). ] (]) 15:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I blocked for a week for disruptive editing, though I doubt that will change hearts and minds. ] (]) 16:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== New Family Family Rises Again ==
	Note: I was previously involved in a talk page dispute on ] with him, and the last time I remember him mentioning me was in kind comment.
			{{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:31, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|New Family Family Rises Again}}
	<small>For the ] illiterate, "SRK" stands for ] and "Salman" stands for ], both of whom are actors</small>. ''']]''' 14:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	I am not all that familiar with Ashermadan's contributions, except that he was found using a sockpuppet in the discussion I mentioned above. ''']]''' 14:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:One clarification which the above user has wholly wrongly represented; I do not ''nonsensically'' prevent people from digging up the archives. Read the notice in my talk page carefully; I said (and I quote, they are visible in the talk page itself) :-
	:''"Under no circumstances whatsoever are the contents of the archives to be tampered with. The archived contents can only be copy-pasted here; nobody is allowed to directly reproduce any portion of the archive in this, or any other page. You are allowed only to quote it. This is a strict rule, and must not be violated under any circumstances."''
	:Perhaps I was unclear, so let me explain: by tampering, I refer to users continuing old and archived conversations ''in the archive itself''. This means that if I had a certain conversation with X, and I later archived the conversation, I don't want X to continue the conversation in the archive page. He is supposed to copy the previous conversation into my talk page (if he wishes to do so) and then continue the conversation in my talk page. I ''forbid'' continuing in the archives because my archives do not provide me a notice for new messages, and I have once missed out an important notification which was placed in my archives, resulting in me being called "unresponsive". I wish to prevent such things, though it has happened once or twice later (to not so drastic consequences). ~*~''']]'''~*~ 15:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::This may be an English-as-a-second-language problem that led to some accidentally-borked text. Ankitbhatt, your warning actually says that users may copy-paste from your archives but that they may not copy-paste ("reproduce") anything from your archives anywhere. The two parts of that contradict each other and make the whole thing make little sense. You could probably get your point across more effectively with a wording like "If you wish to discuss something that's in one of my archives, please copy the archived material here to re-start the discussion; do not edit the archive page itself." ] (]) 15:13, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::{{ec}}Yeah, maybe an ESL problem. But there is the bigger issue here. ''']]''' 15:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::I shall make necessary changes. To point out, English is my first language; I must have made a typing error and repeated a sentence by mistake, adding a "not" in between. ~*~''']]'''~*~ 15:18, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::Also, by "reproduce" I refer to cutting-and-pasting, not copy-and-pasting. I shall elaborate accordingly. ~*~''']]'''~*~ 15:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::{{Done}} ~*~''']]'''~*~ 15:26, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:As one of them pointed above, the talk page notice was a minor issue, and the incivility exhibited by the editor has crossed an alarming point. <font face="Batik Regular">]</font> 16:08, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:: I agree. I only need to look at a handful of interactions to see that their attitude towards people they disagree with is horrific. This is a collegial environment, even if you disagree. That type of interaction should have led to a long term block long ago. I truly think we need to see a) an understand that that behaviour is unacceptable, b) some guarantees that it will not happen again; period. Otherwise, it's time to protect this project from such abuse (]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 23:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	== Email badgering by DeFacto ==
	Since the last series of block appeals, {{User |DeFacto}} has continued to badger me via email, despite . I believe that s/he should have email revoked but since I am the recipient, I'd rather someone else set the bit. His/her talk page privileges have already been revoked. Thanks. ] <small>(])</small> 12:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	: {{done}} (]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 12:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::Thanks. I think we're defacto done with this editor. ] <small>(])</small> 13:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::He is? He was also in email conversation with me regarding potentially restoring talk page access so he could appeal again. (He also wanted me to unilaterally unblock him, but I flatly told him no.) How many people is he appealing to? ] (]) 12:39, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::You, me, and Toddst1 make at least three. <font color="darkorange">]</font><b><font color="midnightblue"><big>]</big></font></b><font color="red">]</font> 14:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::: Time for a community ban discussion? This user doesn't seem to get it. - ] ] 17:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::From ], ''"In the event an indefinitely blocked editor has continued to be disruptive and no administrator is willing to unblock, they are considered de facto banned."'' I believe this already applies here. ]] 18:03, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::The difference being any admin in the future could decide to unblock him under the current circumstances. A community ban would pretty much cement that he cannot be unilaterally unblocked. &mdash; <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	=== DeFacto ban discussion ===
	Propose community siteban of DeFacto for ongoing abuse of e-mail, shopping multiple admins for unblocks, etc.
	*'''Support''' as nom. - ] ] 21:48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	*Since we're going this far, I also '''support'''. ]] 21:58, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	*Blocked + socking to evade should = ban automatically anyway. This is just icing on the cake. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;22:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)</small>
	*'''Support''' - as Hand points out, the difference between a de facto ban and a community ban is that a community ban requires the community's consensus to overturn. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:23, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' Indefinite ban, with NO opportunity to appeal for a minimum of 6 months. Any attempts to request unblock/unban through any channel automatically resets the clock for a fresh 6 months. On October 5, 2012 they may contact the ] as per their policies - any other requests or methods reset the ban to a new 6 months (]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 22:55, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' He's gone off the deep end and needs a while before we're ready to re-consider editorship. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 22:59, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose ban'''. There is no doubt that DeFacto bought this upon himself with his by hook or by crook attempts to keep the strawberry story in ] by filibustering other participants who didn't have as much time on their hands as he did and there's no doubt that he needs a long break. However, the other participants in the threads (] and ]) that lead to his block didn't have clean hands either. Particularly troubling comments were ''But it is a vote - that's how you reach a consensus in a democracy! So far 3:1 in favour of binning the irrelevant Asda paragraph. Probably 5:1 by tomorrow if HiLo48 and Martinvl do what I suspect they'll do'' (canvassing perhaps?) and ''Some like deFacto himself have been toiling away in their Mums' basements making all the "Down with Metric Measures" and "British Imperial Measures for the British Worker" placards ready for the Great Defence of ASDA'' The whole thread eventually looked more like "let's gang up on defacto" then it did a discussion. However, one might attribute some of this to their frustration with DeFacto's fillibustering. Still ] is battlegrounding and both sides are guilty of it. As an alternative proposal, I would like to suggest a block of fixed duration, let's say 3 to 6 months followed by an indefinite topic ban on anything related to British metrication. From looking at his contribs, he does have other interests so it might be wise that he stays away from anything he's very passionate about. --] (]) 00:45, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::1. I was never canvassed.
	::2. I avoided ] by leaving the page, often for weeks at a time. (I DO have a life.) But do recognise that such action was only necessary because DeFacto was always there as self appointed article owner. Nobody should feel forced, as I truly did, into giving up on the quality of an article because one editor was a pain in the ass. And he really was. His actions were the root cause of all the other unacceptable behaviour. Don't make excuses for him.
	::3. DeFacto's ] on his Talk page is an outrageous, insulting diatribe containing blatant personal attacks on other editors. He has completely lost perspective here. ] (]) 01:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support:''' Does not have the social skills necessary to engage effectively and constructively disagree. See ] ] <small>(])</small> 03:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	== Proposing indef ban of the ] sockpuppet... ==
	I am proposing a community ban of {{user|Hershebar}}, or, for that matter, whoever the person is that keeps reappearing, claiming that ] is notable enough for her own article, adding non-notable information about her, and abusively using sockpuppets. IP's contributions are a pretty good sample of the articles that are being hit.
	See ] for at least some of the socks. The latest one was {{user|NEMESISGOTCHA}}, who only left what was evidently an abusive message at ]'s talk page (edit has been hidden). Because of the returning flow of puppets and apparently lack of intent to discontinue disruption, I am proposing an indefinite community ban. ]] 23:18, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	:'''Support''' as nominator. ]] 23:18, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' - Time to go. - ] ] 21:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	*] —<font color="228B22">] ]</font> <sup><small>]</small></sup> 03:10, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	===More puppets===
	{{user|LIJUAL}} is the latest. SPI has been opened. ]] 14:23, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	== ] ==
	{{archive top|1=] is thataway. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:24, 4 April 2012 (UTC)}}
	This article needs someone's attention. ] (]) 19:18, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:Vandal accounts blocked. As you know, however there's an ] to report vandals. This ain't it. Cheers ​—] (])​ 20:21, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::If I have to pick between AIV, RPP, or SPI, I'll take ANI. ] (]) 23:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	== ] ==
	{{archive top|] ] (]) 20:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)}}
	This also needs attention from one of you fat cats. ] (]) 19:29, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:There are only 3 active reports at the moment - not much of a backlog, really. ​—] (])​ 19:41, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::So--I reported a redundant issue to a redundant board? But man, they're like totally destroying everything we worked so hard for! ] (]) 19:46, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	== John @ George Galloway ==
	I'm new to wikipedia, sorry if I do something wrong
	User "John" has constantly engaged in edit wars with other users, and seems to completely flaunt the 3RR rule
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=George_Galloway&action=history
	Completely reluctant to discuss anything, just bashes the "undo" button, even though '''the additions I have been making are perfectly sourced in a newspaper article'''.
	Please help. I have tried very hard to maintain ] but I feel like this article is under attack from an evidently elite group with anti-Islamic/Islamophobic agendas. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 22:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:] is an admin, and ] is allowed to be ignored in cases of vandalism...and ''also'' for ] policy violations, which appears to be the concern here. <small>Look out for those ]s.</small> - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::That he is an admin is irrelevant (or at least, I should hope so), also he wasn't reverting vandalism or WL:BLP policy violations. ] (]) 22:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::: doesn't appear to be 3RR as his reverts are in different areas or the article. Have you discussed this in the talk page as he suggested?] (]) 22:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::And, {{u|Snowlocust}}, please be aware that, under ], we do not indicate that a person follows a given religion {{endash}} or even imply it {{endash}} unless said person has publicly self-identified as a member of said religion. In this case, George Galloway has not self-identified as a muslim and, therefore, to imply that he is may be construed as a violation of ]. Please, do not restore the contentious information and discuss the issue on the article's talk page instead. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml"> ''']'''</span> ] 22:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::Using cherry-picked and questionable sources to make assertions about Galloway's religious beliefs - particularly those flatly contradicted by one of the sources cited ( ''He carries a copy of the Koran around, which has caused speculation he's a Muslim. He says: "That's between me and my God."' But asked by The Observer, Galloway denied any intention to convert'') '''is''' a BLP violation. We have repeatedly asked Snowlocust to discuss contentious edits, but instead, all we seem to get is accusations of Islamophobia (for which he presents no evidence whatsoever). ] (]) 22:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::{{ec}}{{ec}}As Salvio says, claiming he belongs to a religion when he has explicitly states he does not ''is'' a ] violation. Please don't re-add it, as if you do, that'll be ] and ]. Please ] on the ]. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:36, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::The deletions he made at 21:41, 21:18, 17:24 and 12:21 all concern the same part of the article. Sad that because he is an admin he thinks he is exempt from any edit-war rules and rules the article with an iron fist, reluctant to talk things over, just simply bashes the undo button. His most recent revert http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=George_Galloway&diff=prev&oldid=485604049 was deletion - WITHOUT discussion - of statements that are taken '''DIRECTLY''' from the guardian (reputable UK newspaper). ] (]) 22:37, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:: I'd just like to clarify for those confused (e.g. Bushranger, no idea why you are talking about that!) that '''nobody is proposing to say he is a member of any religion. Thanks :)''' ] (]) 22:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::Actually, the material you cite was originally from the Observer (both papers are part of the same group, and share the website) - and I have already quoted the relevant section above, which states that (at least in 2004 when it was written) " carries a copy of the Koran around", but also states that "Galloway denied any intention to convert". Why are you using it as a source for the former, but not for the latter? As for 'nobody is proposing to say he is a member of any religion' you spent much of your time on the article talk page doing that - and still seem intent on suggesting that Galloway is a Moslem by implication. ] (]) 22:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::Because when one sources Statement X from Article Y, one does not need to automatically include every single other statement also made in Article Y. In answer to your seciont question, I have heard about deeply-entrenched anti-Islamic/Islamophobic agendas in Misplaced Pages, and now believing to be witness to one, I intend to fight tooth and nail for a neutral POV (one only has to look at the WP debate on the images of Mohammed to see that Wikipedians - newbies and admins alike - will take any chance they can get to degrade Islam, regardless of any Misplaced Pages stances contrary to it. ] (]) 22:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::So you're saying that you intend to ]? If everybody else holds one position, and you hold another, it's entirely possible that they might all be right. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:57, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::No. I intend to fight Islamophobia and anti-Islamic agendas to the best of my ability, hence I am requesting admin intervention on this issue. If even the admins fail to tackle anti-Islamic agendas on WP then I will attempt to take it to some higher level than the admins. If even the higher level fail to tackle anti-Islamic agendas then there will be little we proponents of equality and neutrality can do. Also, that's twice you have made completely irrelevant and unsubstantiated comments.] (]) 23:01, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::As it happens, I happen to be in the apparent minority amongst Wikipedians regarding the debate over the placement of images of Mohammed in articles - and have made it quite clear that I consider them generally inappropriate. Still, can't let the evidence get in the way of a good conspiracy theory, can we? ] (]) 23:05, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::Just because ''you'' don't, doesn't disprove the general trend. Still, good on you, I suppose. But this is getting off track.. ] (]) 23:07, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::It disproves the proposition that those who are opposing your attempts to spin the Galloway article your way are necessarily driven by Islamophobia (and BTW, there is a quote from the Qur'an on my ]: I suggest you read it, and consider whether your attempts to "rend the earth asunder" are appropriate) ] (]) 23:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::{{ec}}Stating that "I intend to fight tooth and nail for a neutral POV", when the ] is that the ''current'' state of the article is ''already'' at a neutral POV and your proposed neutral POV is not neutral at all and, in fact, violates the BLP policy, is indeed a declaration that you will engage in disruption ''as determined by the community consensus'', and calling you on it is hardly "completely irrelevant and unsubstantiated". You believe that this should be included in the article. The rest of Misplaced Pages does not. ]; but I'm done here. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 23:16, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::::No. The ] amongst my communities is that Misplaced Pages is an anti-Islamic, Islamophobic encyclopaedia that mendaciously prides itself on "neutrality". People like you propagate that bias, people like me wish to restore it to previous levels of neutrality before the agenda-driven editors got their hands on the articles. ] (]) 23:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::::You are the one with the agenda - you have just told us so. ] (]) 23:23, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::Indeed. Everyone has an agenda. Some have the agenda of anti-Islam and are victims of Islamophobia. My agenda is neutrality. ] (]) 23:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::Additionally, thoughts on my recent proposal on the talk page of George's article? ] (]) 23:26, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::"No. The WP:CONSENSUS amongst my communities..." - Which is ''utterly irrelevant to Misplaced Pages's consensus''. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 23:26, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::And regarding my thoughts on your recent proposal, I think you should reconsider making yet more personal attacks on a talk page while the issue is being discussed here. ] (]) 23:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::"And regarding my thoughts on your recent proposal" you said this, but didn't comment on the actual proposal itself. Shame that you also are not willing to discuss this on the talk page like a neutral WP editor would. Also in the link you gave there are no personal attacks, only comments on anti-Islamic agendas. ] (]) 23:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	This is clearly not going to go very far. Clearest example of "Who will guard the guards themselves?" I have ever seen. Could anyone recommend me a higher authority that I could go to on this matter? I take anti-Islamic agendas and Islamophobia extremely seriously. ] (]) 23:21, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:So do I - if I see evidence of them. Regarding the Galloway article, the only Islamophobia I have seen any evidence of was from the person who posted the YouTube video you tried to cite as a source for Galloway being a Moslem. ] (]) 23:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:], ]. Unless you have diffs showing ''clear'' Islamophobia on the part of ], you need to retract that statement. That's a very serious accusation, and you do '''not''' get to just throw it out because your edits were reverted. &mdash; <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 23:37, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::Has already been linked. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=George_Galloway&diff=prev&oldid=485604049 diff showing John reverting direct quotes taken from the guardian. ] (]) 23:39, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::And what part of that establishes islamophoba on his part? - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 23:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::Oh yes, the edit where you tried to cite an article that said "Galloway denied any intention to convert" for a statement that he "refuses to either confirm or deny he has converted to Islam". Islamophobia? ] (]) 23:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::The part where he is desperately trying to delete any attempt at associating George with Islamic beliefs or practices, even though they are perfectly sourced and verified. ] (]) 23:48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::Note this is not an isolated incident. Look through the page history yourself. John adamantly smashes any association of George with Islam - even when the association is perfectly sourced and verified, as per ] - and seems to desperately be trying to keep the viewpoint that George is a Christian Roman Catholic, completely at odds with ]] (]) 23:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Find a source, a ] one, that states this person is unambigiously of this faith, or it cannot be added per BLP. Insinuations and half-baked extrapolations are not enough. ]] 23:52, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::Why are you so desperate to list George's faith on his WP page? He clearly keeps it ambiguous for a reason.] (]) 23:54, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::Why are ''you'' so desperate to discuss this - you seem to be the one making an issue out of it? ] (]) 23:57, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::As stated, "I take anti-Islamic agendas and Islamophobia extremely seriously", hence the reporting of this member to the Admin Incidents board. ] (]) 00:00, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::::"Galloway is often seen with a Koran, but refuses to confirm or deny conversion" carries the ] implcation "but it's clear he has" - which makes the article non-neutral and a ] violation. Unless Galloway has ''explictly stated'' that he has converted to Islam, we ''cannot even imply'' that he has, even if the implcation is ''worded'' using "confirm or deny". Your constant ] on this matter does not help your case here. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 00:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Locust, Why is every edit you have made here connected with having this person listed as Islamic? Religious POV pushing of any stripe wont get you far here. Find a source or drop it, period. ]] 00:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::::Snowlocust, you have clearly misunderstood my last post: I was asking why you were so desperate to discuss Galloway's faith on his WP page. And why are you so desperate to show links with Islam that you conveniently omit the part of a source that suggests that he is not a convert? If he wants to 'keep it ambiguous', why shouldn't we respect his wishes, rather than digging around for evidence? We have clear policy on this, as has been explained to you multiple times. And no, nothing you have provided indicates 'Islamophobia' in regard to the Galloway article - merely a concern for our policies - which coincide with Galloway's wishes. ] (]) 00:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	*Thanks for any other admin input on this. Obviously I am acting as an editor rather than an admin in reverting contentious and poorly referenced BLP matter from this article, as I have edited the article . I would continue to suggest seeking a compromise in article talk before adding speculative material on religious affiliation to the article. I am convinced there is one to be found. I welcome review of my actions here as well as additional talk page contributions. --] (]) 00:10, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	*"User:John is an admin" It seems all I needed to know about how Misplaced Pages handles admin complaints was held within the first few words that I got in reply to this section. Whilst I'm here, is there any system for "higher up" complaints, or is this admin incidents section the final step in the ladder for editors/commentators? ] (]) 00:26, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	*And can I confirm that no action is going to be taken against him as per my complaints of blatant edit-warring or my perceived anti-Islamic agenda? ] (]) 00:29, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	**I apologise for not providing sufficent context; I didn't mean that he was "above the law" by being an admin - none of us are - merely that he wasn't some two-bit newcomer unaware of the rules. And ] is suspended for ] issues, which this was; and you are the only person perceiving an anti-Islamic agenda, so.... - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 00:41, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::What action are you proposing? So far you have failed to provide any evidence whatsoever that anyone has done anything wrong. ] (]) 00:41, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::{{ec}}If you continue accusing John of Islamophobia ''with no evidence to support such an accusation'', it is more likely that you will be blocked for violating ]. If you insist on going forward with this complaint, ] is the process to follow. Oh, and please note: whether John is an admin or not is irrelevant. You are taking a ] attitude here, while pushing ''your opinion'' into a BLP. In other words, you're the one in the wrong here. &mdash; <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 00:44, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::Thank you, I will continue to take this argument through dispute resolution. '''Your attempts to threaten me do not scare me - if a man cannot speak his mind freely in ], where can he? I intend to continue to fight deeply entrenched anti-Islamic agendas within Misplaced Pages editors, be they held within admins, normal editors, or anonymous users,''' in the hopes of helping return ] in relation to any Islamic-related articles. ] (]) 00:54, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::There are no threats - there are simple statments of policy, ones you ]. I'd suggest that reading ] and ] might be of some use, but the simple fact is, if you continue as you have in the discussion here, we'll see you in the block logs. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 01:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::] anybody? ] (]) 01:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Yeah, I give him a week at most with that attitude. &mdash; <b>]</span>:<sup>]</sup></b> 01:53, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::<small>If I wasn't so lazy, I'd write ]. ] (]) 03:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)</small>
	:::::::To be fair to Snowlocust, I'd agree with him that there have been problems regarding the way issues related to Islam have been treated in ''some'' Misplaced Pages articles - but I don't see this as symptomatic of anything other than the general POV-pushing that tends to go on in relation to articles on religion, or ethnicity, or all of the other contentious-and-not-actually-verifiable-except-as-opinion issues. What is certain though is that you can't 'fix' such problems by making endless accusations of bias, engaging in soapboxing, and generally acting like you have discovered some huge criminal conspiracy, which the world must be informed about immediately, so they rally to your cause. That isn't the way Misplaced Pages works. It isn't the way the outside world works either. ] (]) 04:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	== User:174.1.50.249 ==
	I believe this IP user ({{user|174.1.50.249}}) who changed the teams' status names in '']'' and '']'' that the IP editor had disrupted editing the second season with unsourced team relationship names translated from Hebrew, but in the ], for example "חברות" which literally translated to "Friends" in Hebrew language. There, the editor had changed the winners' team relationship's name was to "Painter & Saleswoman" instead of "Childhood Friends" that causes undiscussed on not give the proper English to Hebrew transliteration standards. To note, that editor did edit warring in the second season article and needs to get a block.
	Then, the IP editor got a message from my talk page :
	:'''Excuse me''' my good sir, but you are the one doing disruptive editing.
	:When I saw the "Broke up" thing for Tom & Adele, I figured I would go check it out myself, just to be sure. When I translated their "relationship" tag, which appeared on screen, I noticed it wasn't "Dating". It was "Footballer and his girlfriend".
	:On a whim, I translated all of the other teams and found they were also different than what was listed.
	:So I'm not making stuff up and pulling it out of my rear-end, ''thank you very much''. I'm helping Misplaced Pages by correcting what is incorrect.
	::You say "Ah Okay", then change them back anyway. AND you give me a block warning. Look, I'm trying to do this the proper way, but you're not listening. The fact is that the old names aren't correct. I don't know how else to put it.
	:::Dude, What is your '''problem'''? I'm trying to discuss this with you, but you're just deleting my comments. Am I going to have to take this up with a third party, possibly someone with more power than you? You keep accusing me of "Article ownership", but all I'm doing is trying to correct information that is incorrect. I don't know how else to say it. I '''translated''' the relationships from the show. What I'm changing them to are what is written on the screen. I don't know how much more proof you need than that.
	Then, the editor did an edit war of that said season article and it may do not give an article censorship on this IP's behavior. ] <sup>]</sup> 00:30, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:I don't believe this. I seriously don't believe this.
	:Okay, a few questions: First, how can I cite what I see on the screen? Do I take a screenshot?
	:Second: It doesn't matter if Bar & Inna, for example, are Childhood Friends. For all of the TAR pages, we have put in the "Relationship" table what is written under their names when their team identifier when it appears on-screen. ] were probably friends, but instead we wrote "Gutsy Grannies" because that's what appeared with their team identifier (Or at least we DID, until I now see that someone has changed them).
	:Third: As an example, under Bar & Inna's team identifier on ''the actual show'', it is written ציירת ואשת מכירות which translates to "Painter and Saleswoman". Citing another language of Misplaced Pages isn't good enough, I'm afraid. I can only assume that the Hebrew Misplaced Pages is also incorrect.
	:Fourth: I do not appreciate my comments being deleted from his talk page. I was trying to avoid an edit war by discussing this with Mr. ApprenticeFan and coming to a peaceful solution. Instead, I'm being reported.
	:] (]) 00:50, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::In the original U.S. version, Peggy and Claire's team relationship on screen has not recognized by CBS and "Gutsy Grannies" is not on the old , but they labeled as "Friends". In the Wiki article on TAR2, the relationship labeled as Grandmothers. Herb and Nate changed to "Flight Time and Big Easy", but their team relationships' names from "Friends" to "Harlem Globetrotters". But, there is no case there. ] <sup>]</sup> 01:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::Look, I'm really sorry, and I don't mean to be offensive, but I'm having a really difficult time understanding you because of your English. What's the problem with Flight Time & Big Easy? They're identified on-screen as "Harlem Globetrotters" and their wiki page says "Harlem Globetrotters". That's what I'm trying to do with the Israeli races. ] (]) 01:14, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::By the way, the CBS website has been continually unreliable in the past. They once spelled Hungary as Hungry. They also one said the Bransen Family were the winners. I don't know exactly how the hierarchy of information works here, but I should think that information taken directly from the show that the wiki page is about trumps over the website's info, and ''especially'' trumps info gathered from foreign language wikipedias. ] (]) 02:00, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::Other wikipedias are ''never'' ], but the show is a ] and, thus, superceded by secondary sources unless those are ''proven'' inaccurate. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 03:38, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Pardon? The primary source can be overwritten by secondary sources? What? That doesn't sound right. ] (]) 03:47, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Yeah, Bushrangers, that isn't correct at all. Primary sources cannot be used to support analysis of themselves, but they can be generally scrupulously trusted to say what the actually say. Direct quotes are a form of primary sourcing, and we don't require a secondary source to confirm a quote; though we would to provide information about what the quote means. In other words, we can't say what a primary source ''means'' by only citing it itself, but we can say what it ''says''. The fact that Misplaced Pages tends to like to use secondary sources for information is because secondary sources are those which analyze and provide context for primary sources, but that doesn't mean that we always assume a primary source is wrong. --]''''']''''' 04:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::Like I say, the information is coming directly from the show itself, and I don't know how to cite that beyond taking a screenshot. ] (]) 04:07, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	== Returning IP sock of BLOCKED/BANNED editor? ==
	*{{IPlinks|74.163.16.52}}
	*Patrolling Admin please take a look at , as my alarm bells just went a-klaxon-ringing again~! --<small>] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">]</span></sup></small> 00:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::So I forgot my password.] (]) 01:09, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	*I had notified the user that he's being <s><small>disgusted</small></s> discussed here. He's been on here for part of a day (under that IP) and has already started making personal attacks at me for no particular reason. His style does seem vaguely familiar, but I can't say from where. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:11, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::<small>Not helping</small>.] (]) 01:15, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::No, you're not. But if you did, by telling us who you used to edit as, it could help. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:16, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::I think that is not necessary. ] (]) 01:20, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::If you won't own up to your previous account, it raises suspicions that you're evading a block, and things could get ugly. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:25, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::It was years since I had that account.] (]) 01:28, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::All the more reason to 'fess up. It will be good for your sole. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:29, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::: what's his fish got to do with anything? ] (]) 01:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::],my family moved around alot so I had a hard life,I haven't seen this account in years.] (]) 01:31, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::{{user|Gizmo the Cat?}} Interesting, an account with one notification and no edits, some 6 years ago. That could account for your not remembering the password. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:38, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::::*Noticed how adept he is able to use WP markups and templates even though his account clearly shows he's a newbie? FWIW, I would like to AGF but I find it very hard to take his word for it. --<small>] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">]</span></sup></small> 02:16, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	My article was deleted.] (]) 01:41, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:Whatever you're talking about, it's not ]. Once you hit the "Save page" button, it becomes the community's article, get it? --] 01:53, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::True.] (]) 01:54, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	== ] and massive link insertion ==
	{{user15|Nathanielfirst}}
	This new user has done almost nothing but add "see also"s to many articles, marking them all as minor, and a group of us have been reverting nearly all of them as not really appropriate. Talk page entreaties have gotten no response nor change of behavior. Their only other edits are two failed AfCs and some expansion of ] very early on. ] (]) 02:22, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:I notice all his pages are almost about the same topic,the pages are related.] (]) 02:53, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	== ] Poll ==
	Someone is trying to run a poll on the page regarding some content. The poll may or may not be helpful at this point, but that is not really the issue. User HiLo48 strongly objects to the concept of the poll even being run, and is disrupting it by posting a large swearing comment in the middle of the poll, and refuses to let people move it (reverting when someone else moves). Could an admin step in, move the comment, and tell it to stay? ] (]) 02:56, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:Thanks for presenting such a narrow perspective on this. I responded politely to your comment on your Talk page. Then you come straight here!!! Show some manners ((I was very tempted to add an adjective there that you wouldn't like) and let's continue the conversation there. ] (]) 03:05, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::sigh, you also responded to several other people saying not to fucking move your comment again, and that the rules of civility needed to be broken. reap. sow. ] (]) 03:06, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::So what was the point of even posting on my Talk page? (The normal expected response is a reply on YOUR Talk page, which is what I did.) Might as well have come straight here and wasted Admins' time because you don't like me. ] (]) 03:12, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	{{od}} I will admit to one mistake, which is that I saw your comment on the article talk page saying "rules need to be broken", after your comment on my page, which indicated to me that you had no intention of changing your mind. therefore I came here. and it has nothing to not liking you. I like you just fine, but your disagreement with the way someone wants to gather consensus does not allow you to disrupt it.] (]) 03:13, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:Hilo is Trolling.] (]) 03:16, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::Please understand that straight-up-or-down polls are not appropriate in most places on Misplaced Pages, and basic article content is one of those places. We need to make decisions through discussion, not simply votes. ] (]) 03:18, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::I agree that they arent often useful. And HiLo is free to make that point. But actively stopping others from doing the poll is not ok imo. ] (]) 03:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::I didn't say "rules need to be broken", and what I did seems to have killed that time-wasting, destructive poll anyway. (We had another one earlier on that page. I thought people would have learnt.) All good for Misplaced Pages :-) See you back at that article, eh? ] (]) 03:20, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::No Damn excuse for acting the ].] (]) 03:23, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::And you really think that using one swear word, that would be a perfectly normal part of conversation in some of the circles I move in, is worse than all the other crap that's appeared on that page? Crap with a façade of niceness is still crap. ] (]) 03:28, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::There's a Hugh freaking diff,I'm not bitching in all caps,I let stuff play out,and see the results.] (]) 03:35, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::::"Crap with a facade of niceness" may still be crap, but at least it's ] crap. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 03:40, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	{{od}}
	Inserting comments into the middle of a poll ] , well advised or no, is as good of example of disruptive behavior as I can come up with. Per , disruption in fact appears to be your intent. Whether this is in practice any different than wiki-approved ways of closing a poll early such as hatnotes is a valid question, but in my opinion a hatnote is a fair bit more palatable than big, expletive-laden text. ] is not optional. ] (]) 03:49, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
	:Amen.] (]) 03:57, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
			Some odd initial edits to their own user page, and then falsely adding the admin top icon to a user blocked several years ago, for among other things, impersonating an administrator. Probably a sock, but even if not, something is amiss. ] (]) 16:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	HiLo48, there's consensus in this discussion that your comments were disruptive. Although I think they should be deleted from the talk page, I've reverted to Bob K31416's revision and moved your comments to the appropriate section. Frankly, both your edits and your edit summary are highly inappropriate and you should stop this behavior immediately. ] (]) 03:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
			:Oh, I didn't even initially realize those odd initial edits were back in 2020, around the time when said other user was blocked. ] (]) 16:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:OK, it was disruptive, but in a sense, that was my goal. I wanted to stop people adding comments to a nonsensical, inappropriate poll. Many have agreed that the poll was inappropriate, but it's still there, wide open now for people to add comments to. It's the second attempt at a POLL on that Talk page since I started paying attention a couple of days ago. What bothers me is that the word that has so offended the masses here is much less of the sin where I come from than the absolute racist and bigoted garbage that's appeared throughout that page. So, I can work hard on following conservative American conversational practices, but how about getting rid of that stupid poll, and all the other idiotic and bigoted garbage on that page? ] (]) 04:09, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
			::That this was the user's first edit in 5 years is definitely strange. I reverted their latest one. ] (]) 18:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I have blocked New Family Family Rises Again as not here to build an encyclopedia. We do not need trolls who lie, even if their editing is infrequent. ] (]) 19:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}

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Wikihounding by Awshort

user Awshort has been selectively invoking rules on the article for Taylor Lorenz. It has taken me some time to really see how it was happenening, but finally today wrote this post on the talk page with examples of how they have been selectively and hypocritically enforcing rules on me (a new user).

Additionally, as I mentioned in that post, at one point they accused me of asking another editor for help...which doesn't make any sense? It seems like they were trying to imply to me that I had done something wrong, but I read over some rules first to make sure I was allowed to ask for help. I'm still pretty sure I am! If not...let me know?

After my post today, Awshort started Wikihoundingme.

Here are diffs where they follow me around to pages it doesn't appear they have had any interest in prior:

°1

° 2

°3 Now, I will of course acknowledge that on the third example, I did make a mistake. I thought I had only removed the text of the sentence, but looks as though I accidentally deleted part of the template too. I am unsure how that happened, so I will try to figure that out.

Either way, Awshort's edit summary was not the language I hope experienced editors would use with newer editors like myself. I have mentioned multiple times in conversations that user Awshort is part of that I am a newer user, so they likely know that. ____

I'll end by saying that this user's behavior is making me reconsider whether I want to devote any time to improving wikipedia. Truly. I've never made a report like this before, anywhere in my life, just to give you a sense of how frustrating and upsetting its been.

I hope that this is the right forum for this. If not, my apologies, and please let me know where to redirect this to.

Thanks for taking a look.Delectopierre (talk) 08:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Delectopierre, if you have had any discussions where you actually tried to talk out your differences with this editor, please provide a link to them. They might be on User talk pages or article talk pages or noticeboards. But it's typically advised that you communicate directly with an editor before opening a case on ANI or AN and don't rely on communication like edit summaries. Also, if you haven't, you need to notify any editors you mention about this discussion. They should be invited to participate here. Liz 09:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

There isn't. I don't feel comfortable discussing wikihounding with them. It is, after all, harassment. Delectopierre (talk) 09:20, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Although I did link to my post today where I confronted them with their behavior (except the wikihounding, as it hadn't happened yet). So that is an attempt to discuss the other part.

But after I tried to discuss it, instead of responding to it, they started wikhounding me. Delectopierre (talk) 09:22, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe you should spend less energy “confronting” and more energy discussing and trying to learn from more experienced editors. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 13:38, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I try to learn when experienced editors engage with me in a helpful and respectful manner. Your comment does not fit that description.

As an aside, I wasn't aware that non-admin, IP-only editors, who are not involved with the incidents I've reported would be participating in this discussion. Delectopierre (talk) 23:52, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I've notified Awshort as it still hasn't been done. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:05, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, ActivelyDisinterested for doing so. User:Delectopierre, you should have notified User:Awshort yourself, there are messages instructing editors to do so all over this page including on the edit notice that you see any time you post a comment here. As I said, you are also advised to discuss disputes first with involved editors before posting on a noticeboard. ANI is where you come for urgent, intractable problems, it's the last place you go when other methods of dispute resolution haven't worked. This also looks like a standard content disagreement regarding Taylor Lorenz and the fact that Awshort reverted one of your edits. Liz 21:15, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Liz as I noted above, I attempted to discuss their behavior on the article here, and their response was to wikihound me.

As I said here I don't feel comfortable discussing what feels like and seems to be harrasment, directly with them, as it felt like intimidation to stop confronting them about what I see as bad behavior on the article. I was waiting for a reply to that statement before proceeding.

Is there really no process that allows for an instance when an editor feels uncomfortable? Delectopierre (talk) 23:31, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I will also add that it appears as though this is not the first occurrence of this type of behavior, based on this comment by @Twillisjr. I don't, however, know any of the details. Delectopierre (talk) 23:35, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Re-reading your comment, @Liz:

I think I’ve been unclear. The content dispute is a content dispute. You’re right about that.

That is NOT why I posted here. I posted here because the content dispute spilled off that article and has now resulted in wikihounding. The wikihounding, specifically, is why I posted here. Delectopierre (talk) 05:08, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I have closed the discussion with the rationale "Nothing more to do here. See WP:NOTFORUM and WP:HOUND." KOLANO12 3 13:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Could you please explain your rationale? I don’t follow. Delectopierre (talk) 17:36, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

First, thank you ActivelyDisinterested for the initial ping and Liz for the follow-up ping. The majority of this is over the Taylor Lorenz article as a whole, but there have been some policy issues sprinkled throughout. Delectopierre anyone can participate in noticeboard discussions whether involved or not, the 'IP-only editor' you referenced has more edits than both of us combined, and registration is not a requirement to edit Misplaced Pages nor participate in community noticeboards.

they follow me around to pages it doesn't appear they have had any interest in prior - That isn't accurate since I post on the BLPN often, as well as using it to find articles I can help out on since I mainly focus on editing BLP's. I checked out the BLPN, noticed it was missing a discussion of interest from earlier in the day (Maynard James Keenan) and checked the edit history to see if it was removed for a reason. I saw the previous edit by DP had removed it as well as another discussion so I restored it. That wasn't me 'hounding' them, that was me fixing an error so other discussions could continue. I checked DP's edit history later to see if any similar edits had been made recently in case those needed fixed as well, saw the edit history for this edit with the summary critics don't accuse him of anti-semitism. he is an antisemite, and checked the edit which had been changed to calling the person that. The prior edit had the edit summary of adding back david icke qualifier, so I checked that one as well since I assumed it would be similar. When it was confirmed, I reverted since it seemed a BLP violation as well as WP:LIBEL. Since there was a talk page discussion regarding the prior one, I posted that I had removed it from another article as well, in case it went to a noticeboard both could be noted. It is worth noting that the edit I removed was originally added a few months prior by the same user. I think most editors would have acted in the similar manner regarding the edits and I stand behind them.

I think Awshort's edit summary was not the language I hope experienced editors would use with newer editors like myself. is somewhat disingenuous when on their first full day of editing the Lorenz article after being registered since 2018 and mostly inactive they seemed to know enough policies to quote them in their edit summaries (WP:AVOIDVICTIM, WP:BLPBALANCE, WP:PUBLICFIGURE), their post that to BLPN referenced NPOV,  as well as learning other policies that were left on their talk page (CTOP by TheSandDoctor, NPOV by Little Professor).

And it's hard to reply to the linked conversation above where it's implied I'm hounding in the closing comments with only one side of the story presented.

Awshort (talk) 13:50, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

"I checked DP's edit history later to see if any similar edits had been made recently in case those needed fixed as well,"

That is the definition of hounding:

"Hounding on Misplaced Pages (or "wikihounding") is the singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work."

I don't understand how this isn't open and shut. Delectopierre (talk) 21:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

The same section that you're quoting also says Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. (bold added) Schazjmd (talk) 21:56, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

There is nothing related about the other articles they followed me to, and I fail to see how the problems are related. The only common denominator is me. They will, I'm sure, say they're all BLP. Doesn't matter, tons of this encyclopedia is BLP and if Awshort feels I shouldn't be editing any BLP, there are methods of addressing that belief that don't include following me around wikipedia to make sure I don't do anything they disagree with. Delectopierre (talk) 04:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

It's only hounding if they act on it. You need to show at least a few diffs that they are editing on a page you are editing, and they would not have been interested in it otherwise. If they are stalking your history, but do nothing, its technically non-actionable. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 22:17, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Those diffs are in my original post. Delectopierre (talk) 04:30, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Also going "this editor made problmatic edits, I should check their history to make sure they haven't made more, and fix any others they've made" is most assuredly not hounding. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:39, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

After a long winded disagreement on a talk page that included them starting multiple edit wars, my view is there are much better ways of addressing this. For example, they could have started a conversation on my talk page.

Additionally, who is to say which edits are problematic? I view a number of edits Awshort made as problematic, so I disengaged from the conversation rather than continuing to go in circles.

Lastly, could you help me understand how a non-admin editor checking another editor's history and reverting their edits is not hounding? It seems to fit the definition of hounding.

Delectopierre (talk) 04:36, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Easy. Someone sees you made an edit they consider problematic. They go and check your other edits to see if you made other problematic edits. They revert any problematic edits they find. Being an admin or not has nothing to do with it. If they continually do this over a period of time, then it may be hounding. If they go through it once because they noticed something, it's not. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks. Delectopierre (talk) 21:33, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

After a long winded disagreement on a talk page that included them starting multiple edit wars - Ignoring the dig about 'long winded disagreement' and just pointing out the following since I was accused yet again of something else

## 'Attempts to discredit her work'
1. Inclusion of RollingStone reference and 'attempts to discredit her work' text by DP on Aug 17, 24
2. FMSky removes on Dec 11 with WP:ROLLINGSTONEPOLITICS as reason.
3. Reverted by DP Dec 13, empty edit summary.
4. Removed again by FMSky with same edit summary
5. Reverted by DP with no edit summary, again
6. FMSky moves text further down based on what the included reference says.
7. Reverted by DP

## 'Doxxing standard part of the reporting process'
1. Insertion of text about doxxing, 'standard part of the reporting process' by DP Aug 17, 24
2. Removed in Nov 27 by myself, as it was already included with the same reference earlier in the paragraph.
3. Reverted shortly after by DP
4. Removed on Nov 28 with a quote on what the text of the included reference actually stated, which was not what was included.

## Podcast
1. Podcast section added Aug 17 by DP
2. Removed some of the podcast text that seemed promotional and wasn't supported by the included reference Nov 27
3. Reverted by DP Nov 27
4. Removed both the Podcast reinsertion, and the previous reporting texts on Nov 28 with the same reasoning and asked to take it to TP and try to obtain consensus before insertion again.

## 'Assaulted'
1. Harassment section which included 'assaulted' added Aug 17 by DP
2. Removed the word assaulted from the harassment section on Nov 28 since it was covered in her career section.
3. Reverted by DP on Dec 3 as WP:OR
4. Removed per talk, undue, and covered in Career Dec 14

## 'Coordinated'
1. Vegan416 removed the word coordinated under BLP grounds (accusing Tucker Carlson of coordinating attacks) Dec 14
2. Re-insertion by DP on Dec 24
3. Removed per WP:SYNTH since the word wasn't in the included reference on Dec 24

It isn't limited to just this article, though.

## 'Anti-Semitic'
1. Anti-Semitic label of David Icke added on April 9
2. removed by Zane362 Nov 11
3. Re-added by DP Dec 26
4. Removal by myself on Dec 27

It seems like the very definition of WP:OWNBEHAVIOR An editor reverts justified article changes by different editors repeatedly over an extended period to protect a certain version, stable or not. This isn't entirely an "I don't like Awshort messing with my edits" issue; this is a "I don't like anyone messing with my edits" issue.

Coincidentally, its also covered in WP:HOUND at WP:HA#NOT: It is also not harassment to track a user's contributions for policy violations (see above); that is part of what editor contribution histories are for. Editors do not own article content, or their own edits, and any other editor has the right to revert edits as appropriate. Unwarranted resistance to such efforts may be a sign of ownership behavior and lead to sanctions.

On almost every attempt to edit text inserted by DP, be it by other editors or myself, editors are met with resistance. That includes when their text that was inserted is changed in any manner, including being reworded or moved.

Awshort (talk) 19:59, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from User:DarwIn

User:DarwIn, a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is harassing me here after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. Skyshiftertalk 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use {{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~ on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --Yamla (talk) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics (Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is targeting the DYK nomination, again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute.

Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. Skyshiftertalk 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --Yamla (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally edited the DYK page and put a "disagree", despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. His comment is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, he insisted saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, he reincluded the comment. I asked him to stop harassing me, but he has edited the page again.

I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. Skyshiftertalk 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already blocked at the Portuguese Wikipédia and Wikimedia Commons, the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, with an open case for sockpuppetry at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please. Darwin 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. Skyshiftertalk 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which you are well known for abusing whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. Darwin 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

And here's explicit transphobia. It's her daughter, no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. Skyshiftertalk 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. Skyshiftertalk 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  • Comment I would suggest Darwin review MOS:GENDERID. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. Simonm223 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    @Simonm223 I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? Darwin 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    @DarwIn, the bottom line is that you don't get to question that. As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is not the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them any good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. Blue Sonnet (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. Darwin 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read Thamirys Nunes' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). Skyshiftertalk 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. Darwin 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including MOS:GENDERID) - otherwise you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. Darwin 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here.

    Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there.

    And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. Eduardo G. 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the WP:GENSEX area.Simonm223 (talk) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I would suggest a topic ban is imposed. GiantSnowman 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I would support a topic ban from WP:GENSEX. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. GiantSnowman 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? Darwin 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. Darwin 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    @GiantSnowman nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. Darwin 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. Darwin 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    You fundementally misunderstand the scope of WP:BLP and the concept of topic area as well. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. Darwin 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    it was a collective you. Darwin 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. Nil Einne (talk) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

    None of this is relevant. We follow sources and MOS:GENDERID. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. GiantSnowman 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I've continued to post where? Darwin 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? Darwin 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? GiantSnowman 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@DarwIn The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have my own disagreements with that guideline, and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. Darwin 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? Darwin 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@DarwIn This one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Ad Orientem I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. Darwin 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@DarwIn Easiest way to defuse this is to post a bolded and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" Darwin 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. GiantSnowman 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. Darwin 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. Darwin 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 Darwin 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. Darwin 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? Darwin 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Because of edits like this . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? Darwin 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? Darwin 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  I answered a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. Darwin 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. Darwin 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway. Darwin 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Isaidnoway I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. Darwin 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary one-way interaction ban, broadly construed, as in effect. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Isaidnoway yes, that's correct. Darwin 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about righting great wrongs in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. Isabelle Belato 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? Darwin 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. Isabelle Belato 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Isabelle Belato You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me in the English Misplaced Pages? Darwin 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @The Bushranger Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? Darwin 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Would recommend that Darwin walk away from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Clarification

• Hello @Nil Einne - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in my country, to the point of eventually configuring a crime here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much.
• As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ILGA Portugal, which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that.
• The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here.
• Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan.
• And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. Darwin 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Proposed Community Sanctions

I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this.

Proposed DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to WP:GENSEX broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. PS - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. GoodDay (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? TarnishedPath 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support topic ban and IBAN, both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. GiantSnowman 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Just read through the above and good grief. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. Simonm223 (talk) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. Ymblanter (talk) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

That's actually a fair point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent WP:RGW impulse. Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Simonm223 You have been misjudging me - It was quite the opposite, actually, if it's worth anything. Darwin 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the WP:GENSEX area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. Simonm223 (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Simonm223 OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). Darwin 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

If they weren't before they are now... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok, to be clear, I oppose a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. Ymblanter (talk) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. Darwin 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back And those were the only ones, and I voluntarily stopped them yesterday immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to my stance here. You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. Darwin 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? Darwin 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽‍♂️ Darwin 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? Darwin 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back There was not any "lie", please stop assuming bad faith. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". Darwin 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Darwin has a long history of editing in WP:GENSEX albeit generally less controversially. an example. Simonm223 (talk) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Simonm223 That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. Darwin 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  DarwIn WP:GENSEX covers gender and sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Simonm223 Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. Darwin 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support per Bushranger. charlotte 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. Springee (talk) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Pppery: days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ⇒SWATJester 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Support Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. Nil Einne (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Nil Einne What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? Darwin 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @DarwIn: Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times #c-DarwIn-20241229133200-Skyshifter-20241229132800, #c-DarwIn-20241229152900-Simonm223-20241229150600, #c-DarwIn-20241229154200-Blue-Sonnet-20241229154000, #c-DarwIn-20241229154100-Simonm223-20241229153800, #c-DarwIn-20241229160700-GiantSnowman-20241229154400, #c-DarwIn-20241229172200-Ad_Orientem-20241229171800. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like thought police. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here. Darwin 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. Darwin 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  User:DarwIn, I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. Liz

  @Liz: Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that. Darwin 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  @DarwIn: you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. Nil Einne (talk) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. Nil Einne (talk) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it.

MiasmaEternal☎ 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - Per GoodDay and Springee. Ciridae (talk) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.Boynamedsue (talk) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of MOS:GENDERID may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer WP:AGF. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN/IBAN Weak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN - WP:NQP suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate WP:NOTHERE behavior. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

"A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. EEng 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. EEng 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

OK boomer. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. EEng 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.Boynamedsue (talk) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP WP:DROPTHESTICK - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. Simonm223 (talk) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. Simonm223 (talk) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of WP:PG, and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN.

sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour there would be no mention of WP:NPA. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture continues to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. Simonm223 (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as unnecessary given the commitments already given. WaggersTALK 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Let's not. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). Edited to include edit conflict comment. CNC (talk) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am assuming you haven't spent much time in places WP:FTN where religious belief and persons of faith are not infrequently and quite openly subject to ridicule. Racism is a subject upon which society has happily come to more or less full agreement. Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other. I shall refrain from further comment out of deference to WP:FORUM. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC) Fringe ideas get ridiculed at FTN regardless of whether or not they are religious... That so many fringe views are also religious is more a result of the supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual being inherently fringe than any problem with FTN. Religion which is rational and explainable isn't religion any more after all. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC) Thank you for affirming my point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC) Your point was that "Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other." Right? Like for example the LGBTQ grooming conspiracy theory or is that not the side you were thinking of? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC) No. I was thinking of people who regularly insult and ridicule religious belief and those who hold to it. Something which based on your comment, does not seem to be a source of concern to you. That said, this discussion is veering deep into WP:FORUM territory and I am going to move on. Have a good day. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC) I don't think I've ever seen any of those people suggest that trans people are demons, or did you mean demonize in a way other than literally saying that the other side is demonic/satan's minions? Becuase that would be highly ironic... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC) I am reaching the uncomfortable conclusion that you are attempting to be deliberately offensive. And for the record, you are succeeding. Good day. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC) You weren't aware that a cornerstone of the gender controversy was religious conservatives resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other? Because that is well documented in reliable sources. I don't think you're the one who is supposed to be offended here, you're the one saying what appear to be extremely offensive things and are being asked to clarify what you meant. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC) (edit conflict) I think a significant point here is that while we may tolerate some degree of forumish and offensive comment about gender or race or religions from editors when they are restricted to largely abstract comment or even when they reference other editors, it's far more of a problem when the editors make offensive accusations about living persons especially when these are completely unrelated to any discussion about how to cover something (noting that the editor continued to make the comment even after they had noted how the English wikipedia treats issues). So for example, if someone says a specific religious figure is delusion or lying in relation to how we treat their testimony that might barely be acceptable. When someone just comes out and says it repeatedly for no reason, that's far more of a problem. Especially if the figure is someone barely notable and not notable (as was the case here for one of the individuals each). Nil Einne (talk) 22:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

This is affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Comment This is definitely not the ideal place to discuss the subject since the whole problem originated with pt.wiki, but since the editor came here asking for help (for the right reasons or not), I will draw attention to the case of the admin accused of transphobia. This is not the first time that DarwIn has been singled out due to his comments on the subject (he has already given several examples of this here), but there is an official pt.wiki community on Telegram where the editor has already been criticized for making such comments. There, they were also celebrating Skyshifter's ban (DarwIn commented something like "as a man he was 100%, after transitioning he became unbearable" to refer to her). As much as they try not to link the group to the project, to use this chat you need to associate your Misplaced Pages credentials, so I am concerned that pt.wiki admins could be seen spreading speeches against minorities in an official space of the project, since Misplaced Pages is the target of attacks for investing in equity and diversity. In addition to this comment, the admin was also extremely rude and crude towards a Misplaced Pages research group that discusses gender, sexuality and race. Again, this is not the ideal place to comment on these issues, but I suggest that the case be submitted to Wikimedia if any intervention or something more incisive is necessary. The local community can accuse me of anything for writing these words, but I am concerned about the escalation of editorial harassment within that space. PS: The editor was mocking this discussion in the Telegram group while I was writing this. Jardel (talk) 01:57, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Came back after a month with no edits for this? It's quite clear Jardel is taking something personal with DarwIn here. Or he doesn't have anything to do at the moment. And he didn't have such great writing and narrative in his mother tongue, now is writing perfect, well written English. That gets stranger considering he's partially blocked in ptwiki for some beefing with other editors (block discussion in portuguese)... Quite strange, to say the least. Eduardo G. 03:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) And yes, by "quite strange" I am talking about maybe meatpuppetry. Nobody comes after a month without edits (that was preeceded by some other months before some 5-ish edits), to make an "accusation" based on unfounded arguments, especially after being blocked precisely for beefing and attacking other members of the community in his homewiki. Such a hypocrisy, a user banned for beefing accusating another user of attacks and using the word "transphobia" so vaguely. Eduardo G. 03:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) As I expected, the group participants started making accusations against me (that's why Eduardo G. appeared in this discussion) and wanted to insinuate that Skyshifter is writing this text, perhaps wanting to provoke some kind of retaliation later. First, I appreciate the compliments on my writing, which was 100% done by Google Translate; I think Google's engineering is to be congratulated. Second, I'm only here on this page because I noticed the links to this discussion in the Telegram group itself and decided to contribute with what I've been reading for a long time with great disgust. I didn't need to bring much, Darwin himself made a point of making abject comments in this discussion, but if you want, I can bring some screenshots of what they were talking about in the group. Third, I did go 1 month without editing here because my focus is not on en.wiki but on pt.wiki, where I make regular edits. I find it strange that you entered this discussion without refuting any of the arguments above, thinking that bringing up my tarnished "reputation" changes everything that was written by me or in the group. I believe it must be embarrassing to participate in a group where they are celebrating the sanctions that Skyshifter will suffer (thinking that place is a "private club") while at the same time you send cordial greetings from the "public side" to the same editor, simulating virtue. In any case, my goal here is only to reinforce that there is indeed materiality in what Skyshifter said with more evidence and once again I recommend that the discussion be evaluated by the Wikimedia team knowing that attitudes that demonstrate prejudice against minorities go against the project's investments in equity, diversity and equality. Jardel (talk) 03:52, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I will not pursue any retaliation. I'm just stating what I know of this case, and I even supported Sky when the edits were being made. People are celebrating because all of this discussion was brought to even another wiki by her. But I understand you might've written this text, and will not take the subject further. If anybody needs anything, please read the message below. Cheers. Eduardo G. 03:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) So, I don't disagree with your argument about the sanctions she's passing on the other project, unfortunately. As for "not pursue any retaliation", I don't think that's what you mean by the phrase "4 successful DBs in a row is not for everyone." directed at me. Jardel (talk) 04:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) @Jardel You're wrong, twice. First, it wasn't me saying that. It was NCC-1701, and my user in TG is Edu. And at no point did I agree with NCC's messages. And secondly, the "four DBs in a row" wasn't in anyway directed at you. It was directed to Bageense, who opened 4 block discussions in the last 2 or 3 days and all of them were successfull. You are distorting the messages to condone your erroneous narrative. Eduardo G. 04:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Well, if I am "distorting messages" to "tolerate" my narrative, anyone who wants to evaluate can join the group and read the messages posted there or see the pt.wiki discussion against the Projeto Mais Teoria da História na Wiki and talk to its members to see what their opinion is on the matter. I may not be a perfect person, but what I see with great displeasure (coming from those who are "in charge of the gears") is not positive for the project. Jardel (talk) 04:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Joining the group the community would then have no doubts about your intents and distortion of facts. You didn't deny the two things I said above — you know I'm right, you can't bend the facts this much. Eduardo G. 04:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) As a ptwiki user that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage (here)/in her UP, thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the block discussion (in portuguese). The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it. This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone. I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my portuguese talk page (direct url). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. Eduardo G. 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community "worms, scoundrels, trash and deniers". And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user already tried to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, went to Meta-Wiki in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. InvictumAlways (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC) It is pretty clear thay the intents of Jardel here are disruptive. Your comment hopefully leaves no doubt to the community. Eduardo G. 04:53, 31 December 2024 (UTC) As I said above, I am not a perfect person. I may have used foul language to address some editors in a moment of anger, but I felt vulnerable and hurt by editors I held in high regard, and I apologize for what I wrote in the past. Likewise, I do not think it is right that a social channel that is reported as "linked to Misplaced Pages" is being used as a bar where people can say whatever they want, especially when it comes to prejudiced comments against minorities. At no time did I label all of them, only one of them demonstrated that she was doing so. If I happen to receive any sanction for this discussion, and knowing that bringing issues from pt.wiki here is not ideal, I will receive it for doing the right thing, because I want something to change for the better in a project that I have dedicated so much time to contributing to. I may be prevented from editing on Misplaced Pages, but if what I bring here helps to change something, I will be happy. Jardel (talk) 05:01, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

InvictumAlways - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? jellyfish ✉ 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

@Jardel The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, as you said yourself previously. Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• Supporting both IBAN and TBAN. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
• Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. Nil Einne (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain.

concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Children cannot consent, their parents can. (CC) Tbhotch 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--Boynamedsue (talk) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? Nil Einne (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. Simonm223 (talk) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support TBAN, no comment on IBAN. This is blatant POV harassment. (CC) Tbhotch 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- Patar knight - /_{contributions} 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose any sanctions I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate WP:OR on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. Dronebogus (talk) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support TBAN, indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this WP:NOTHERE type editing, whether it is attempting to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS or simply WP:BLUDGEONING discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. CNC (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose Skyshifter, if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to deëscelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. JayCubby 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite (here) to boot. Relm (talk) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY.

Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am.

Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages.

I support the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community.

I oppose with the IP-ban because if anything this SHOULD’VE ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing.

Reader of Information (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. Relm (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents.

NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent.

Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

This reply reminded me of the essay WP:CLUE. CNC (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. Reader of Information (talk) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. TarnishedPath 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at Special:Diff/1267644460 accusing me of coming to their talk page to "further troll me with this nonsense warning". TarnishedPath 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --Aquillion (talk) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Skyshifter taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge.

100% affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this WP:BOOMERANGs on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. Liz 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC) The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. On the 29th of December, User:Skyshifter started an AN/I based on a claim that User:DarwIn, a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination here. AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate. She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log. This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage (here and in her UP), casting aspersions over other users and using ducks and meatpuppets to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it here, with all the proofs). The block discussion taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever. Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was personal and for revenge. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under pt:WP:NDD, here called WP:ASPERSIONS I think, and disruptive editing/WP:POINT, and in the AN/I above she's commiting WP:BLUDGEON, repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment. Eduardo G. 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC) @Eduardo Gottert: You need to provide evidence when opening an ANI thread, not on request. Nil Einne (talk) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) '@Nil Einne The evidences are above. I said if you need any further evidence, you may ask. All of the necessary evidence are on the request. Eduardo G. 06:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Where's the evidence? What we know is that DarwIn came here despite little involvement and made a highly offensive statement that can reasonably be characterised as transphobic. While I don't feel Sky Shifter should have described it so, better to let others decide, it was entirely reasonable for Sky Shifter to call for action against DarwIn for it. What is your evidence that they did it for revenge instead of for the fact that after a disagreement with DarwIn in a different wiki, DarwIn suddenly appeared in this wiki, one they themselves agree they barely edit, to make a highly offensive statement that Sky Shifter reasonably felt was transphobic. After doing so, they then appeared on ANI to make similar highly offensive statements were they made offensive accusations against living based on their own opinion. Nil Einne (talk) 06:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Honestly, the argument is pretty clear above. Eduardo G. 06:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) If you agree you're wrong then please withdraw this ANI. Nil Einne (talk) 06:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I did not agree in any place that I am wrong. I just stated that the evidence is pretty clear above, with all the block discussions and diffs needed for understanding the problem. Eduardo G. 06:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Your statement was very unclear. You said "the argument" which I interpreted to mean my argument. If you're still claiming your argument is clear, then please explain how it can be when part of your argument is it was unfair for Sky Shifter to go around saying "transphobia" when many of us agree that even if it was unnecessary, it was not unsupported given the comments DarwIn was making do seem to be transphobic. Nil Einne (talk) 06:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC) As we were talking about my evidence, I think saying "the argument" clearly refer to me. And as to the reason for the opening of this ANI, it's because the revenge seeking of Skyshifter. Eduardo G. 06:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I wouldn't say it doesn't considering as I said, one of the reasons your argument was flawed, but you didn't address that in any way. Nothing you've said above or since has explained why you're claiming Sky Shifter using the word "transphobic" is evidence for "revenge" when it's a reasonable characterisation of what DarwIn said. Nil Einne (talk) 06:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) (edit conflict) I would add it's very unclear what you thinking you're adding that wasn't already considered above. In the above thread a 1 way iban on DarwIn seems to be getting serious consideration. A two way iban seems to have been rejected based on the assessment that whatever the wrongs with Sky Shifter's approach, it wasn't serious enough to warrant an iban. The fact that Sky Shifter was in a dispute with DarwIn on other wikis, and DarwIn was involved in their blocked is likewise not a secret, part of it was stated by Sky Shifter when opening the thread and the rest was stated by DarwIn. The sock allegation likewise. So what do you think you're adding to the discussion that wasn't already considered and seemingly rejected by the community above? Nil Einne (talk) 06:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC) It is time for a WP:BOOMERANG. You already said all of that above. You seem to have been canvassed here from a discussion outside of this wiki. Go back there and let them know cross wiki harassment will get you blocked here. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I added more evidence and context. Eduardo G. 06:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) You simply cast aspersions as part of a cross wiki harassment campaign against someone over transgender related issues. You are not here to build an encyclopedia. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 06:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Your statement doesn't even make sense. Eduardo G. 06:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC) We can add WP:CIR to the reasons you are blocked then. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 06:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Am I? And where am I in violation of WP:CIR? Eduardo G. 06:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I used plain English and you said you couldn't comprehend it. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 06:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I thought it was pretty well determined in that prior ANI thread that DarwIn's edits and statements absolutely were transphobic and bigoted. Silverseren 06:07, 31 December 2024 (UTC) The reason for the AN/I opens is still the same, revenge. Eduardo G. 06:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I've read many of the posts on the Portuguese wiki, and it is pretty clear that the Skyshifter's complaint above is a deliberate expansion of drama from there. The Portugese wiki is not Uganda, people do not get banned there for being Trans, and former admins don't get banned without causing a lot of disruption. It is clear these two users really strongly dislike each other and need to stop interacting in any way.--Boynamedsue (talk) 06:59, 31 December 2024 (UTC) People obviously doesn't get banned for being trans. She was sysop there, commited some errors, but stayed there even after 5 months of being on estrogen. And the community knew it. What caused her block there was calling the project a sewage and then outbreaking and attacking other users. I suggest they get a two-way IBAN, at least, not the one-way as proposed on the other AN/I. Eduardo G. 07:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I would add that unless I'm missing something, the block discussion on the Portugese Misplaced Pages seems to have been started about 30 minutes before the ANI thread . It has no contributions by DarwIn . It is theoretically possible I guess it somehow factored into the motivation of Skyshifter opening the ANI thread, but this seems extremely unlikely. There's a good chance Skyshifter wasn't even aware of it when opening the thread. In other words, there's no reason to think Skyshifter was even aware they were likely going to be permanently blocked from pt at the time of opening the thread although they did say they weren't going to return. Nil Einne (talk) 07:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC) She opened an NI, ptwiki equivalent of AN/I against DarwIn with crazy arguments. You can see it here. It was prompty closed, and she was very well aware of the consequences she would face, and of the opening of the block discussion, and clearly opened the AN/I because of that reason. The block discussion started at 1130 UTC, and the AN/I was posted at 1300, at a time that Skyshifter had already taken notice of the discussion, as you can see here. Eduardo G. 07:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC) This is very blatantly a tit-for-tat. As mentioned above there is the distinct smell of fishiness about it, and as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log - yes, the editor who has three FAs on en.wiki "came to this project" to do this. Suggest this be promptly closed as I hear a WP:BOOMERANG inbound. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I am not saying she isn't an avid used of English wiki. I just stated that she took ptwiki matters here for revenge and self-fullfillment. Eduardo G. 07:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC) If you aren't asking for any sanctions against Skyshifter, then why did you open this sub-section, just to sling some mud at her? Give it a rest already, you're just creating more drama than is necessary. Isaidnoway (talk) 08:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I think that the background of this dispute is very relevant. Obviously, neither Skyshifter or Darwin should face any repercussions here for behaviour on pt.wiki, but it isn't possible to understand what is happening here without discussing what happened there. For me, having read what happened over there is the main reason I wouldn't yet TBAN Darwin, and would call for a two-way rather than one way interaction ban.--Boynamedsue (talk) 08:50, 31 December 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

John40332 reported by CurryTime7-24

John40332 has been blocked sitewide. Reader of Information (talk) 01:33, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Moved from WP:AIV – ToBeFree (talk) 14:12, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

John40332 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – On Psycho (1960 film) (diff): account is being used only for promotional purposes; account is evidently a spambot or a compromised account. User's recent edits have been dedicated almost invariably to inserting links in classical music-related articles to an obscure sheet music site. Behavior appeared to be WP:REFSPAM and WP:SPA. Personal attempts to curb this behavior or reach a compromise were rejected by user. Further attempts to engage with them at WT:CM resulted in WP:ICANTHEARYOU, despite three other editors informing user that their edits appeared to be spam or some kind of advocacy. CurryTime7-24 (talk) 08:50, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Not a bot and not spamming, you just keep WP:HOUNDING me repeatedly, I cited sources to the publisher of the books in question. You appear to suffer from WP:OWN and act like I need your consent to edit the articles you feel that belong to you. You also know I'm not a compromised account, you spam Assume_good_faith on your reverts but you're mostly bullying other editors into submission.

You've been asked to stop disrupting editing https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:CurryTime7-24#January_2025 , and continue to harass any edits that touch "your" articles.

You also keep saying I add citation to obscure music sites, just because you don't know something doesn't make it obscure. Additionally, you are the only person raising this as an issue because you're extremely controlling of the articles, you don't own Misplaced Pages and hopefully some other editor or admin can remind you of that. John40332 (talk) 09:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you claiming that SheetMusicX is a reliable source for these articles? If so then someone (it may be me but I don't guarantee it) should take it to the reliable sources noticeboard. I note that several editors have queried this, not just CurryTime7-24. John40332 is clearly not a spambot or compromised account, so please avoid over-egging the pudding. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:19, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

It is reliable and listed with other respectable publishers, it's the homepage of the Canadian music publishing house Edition Zeza, their books are part of the National Library Collections, WorldCat.org shows their books in libraries around the world etc, I shouldn't even have to dig this far because 1 editor decided he WP:OWN Misplaced Pages. The links I had included provided relevant information about the articles I was editing (orchestration, dates, duration etc). Cited information from a publisher of said work, which is exactly what WP:SOURCEDEF suggests doing. John40332 (talk) 18:41, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

The editor's history does seem suspicious. From 2014 to 2023 they made a total of 24 edits to article space, almost all of which were to Charlie Siem and Sasha Siem. Then after more than a year of no edits, in the last 5 weeks they have made 38 edits to article space, of which all except three added a reference to sheetmusicx.com. This is a commercial site that sells sheet music. As far as I can see, every reference added was a link to a page that sells a particular piece of sheet music. This certainly seems like WP:REFSPAM. CodeTalker (talk) 19:00, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

So is the problem that I'm actively contributing now, or that the cited sources aren't good enough? You guys are grasping at straws at this point.user:CurryTime7-24 added links to commercial sites diff1 , such as to Fidelio Music (to which he appears to be an affiliate) and yet no one raises a flag. Even when I added a source without removing his, he removed mine diff2 to keep only his link to Fidelio Music. John40332 (talk) 19:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

There is no "you guys" here. You have exactly the same status, as a volunteer editor, as I do. I have no idea who CurryTime7-24 is, or whether that editor is an affiliate. I just know about reliable sources and that we should not be linking to any commercial site, except possibly to the original publisher of a work. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:38, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

• User:COIBot has compiled a page, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spam/Local/sheetmusicx.com of edits with links to this website. This list was not created by CurryTime7-24 but by a bot looking for instances of conflict-of-interests. All of the problems you are concerned about, John40332, would not exist if you would just stop posting links to this website. If you would agree to stop referring to sheetmusicx.com, you wouldn't be "hounded" or be defending yourself and we could close this complaint. Can you agree to that editing restriction? And, if you can't, then why are you insisting on linking to this particular website? Liz 02:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

  Because it's a valid source according to:

  WP:REPUTABLE - "Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources"

  WP:SOURCEDEF - The publisher of the work (and not only the first ever publisher, any reputable publisher of a work)

  WP:PUBLISHED - "Published means, for Misplaced Pages's purposes, any source that was made available to the public in some form."

Interestingly, "someone" (and I'm not saying it's CurryTime7-24) came to my talk page yesterday to write "kill yourself", I can only think of 1 person who is hounding me this much though, but that doesn't seem to be taken seriously. John40332 (talk) 07:29, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not "interesting", that's despicable; as is your insinuation. As for sheetmusicx as as source: for what? That they published some work? Why is that noteworthy? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:00, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

As a source for information about the work. Yes it's despicable, and as I said, no one takes it seriously, I'm not insinuating anything, admins can look into the IP themselves. John40332 (talk) 08:10, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

So, you would prefer that this dispute continue on, which could lead to sanctions for you, rather than simply stop using this website as a reference? To me, when I see that kind of behavior, it's typically a sign of a paid editor. Liz 09:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

There's no dispute, it's a reliable source and user:CurryTime7-24 makes a fuss about it because of his WP:OWN syndrome and potential WP:COI with his affiliation with Fidelio Music.

Why are you against a source that complies with WP:RELIABILITY ? John40332 (talk) 09:35, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Because your use of that source is pretty clearly intended as promotional. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:27, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

It's hard to understand how you can say "there's no dispute" when there is quite obviously a dispute; six editors in this thread alone have questioned your use of that source. You have invoked WP:RS to claim that the website is an acceptable source, but I'm not sure you have understood what that guideline says about commercial sites; they are allowed as references only to verify simple facts such as titles and running times. You have not used sheetmusicx.com for such purposes; you have used it to tell the reader where they can purchase sheet music (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc). CodeTalker (talk) 01:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I used it to add relevant information that didn't exist on Misplaced Pages.

When I added "Psycho A Narrative for String Orchestra" diff that exists since 1968 and never mentioned on Misplaced Pages, but CurryTime decided to harass me there too.

When I added the orchestration for Tambourin Chinois diff, which CurryTime decided to remove too.

I used information by the publisher to confirm facts, as per WP:RS, if commercial sources are not allowed to verify contributions, then why is everyone so quiet about CurryTime's affiliation to Fidelio Music links ? So far these comments are a good example of WP:HUNT, first I was accused of spamming, then of being a bot, then that my account was compromised, then that the source used wasn't reliable, if you run out of ideas try my religion or ethnicity. John40332 (talk) 08:50, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, you added the bit about Psycho - which included the link with the same phrasing as on the other edits where it was obvious "buy this music here". Your edits are either promotional or are indistinguishable from being promotional. That is why they are being removed. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

You have repeatedly said that CurryTime7-24 is an affiliate of Fidelio. Can you show us your evidence of that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Here he removed my source to add Fidelio Music diff1

Here again to make sure only Fidelio Music exists diff2

And obviously here, deleting what I added to include Fidelio Music exclusively diff3

Here he completely deleted everything I added about the piece as part of his WP:HOUNDING diff4 John40332 (talk) 19:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

That may be evidence of something, good or bad, but it's certainly not evidence that that editor is an affiliate. But, anyway, the action that hould have been taken a few days ago has now been taken, so we can stop talking now. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be nice if an admin would compare the IP address 181.215.89.116 that told me to kill myself on my Talk Page, to existing users, now that would be fun to find out who is so against my edits, because so far the only action was a suspension. John40332 (talk) 08:58, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Checkuser is not for fishing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

In any case the most obvious guess is: some unrelated troll who saw your name on this board. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

It appears that there is consensus here and at WT:CM against linking to Sheet Music X. Is it possible for an admin to propose a resolution here? —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 17:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The only consensus is your WP:OWN syndrome, the sources linked are reliable and fit for purpose. People have questioned my use of the source, not the reliability of it.

You created this complaint stating that I'm a spammer, a bot or a compromised account, has that consensus been reached too ? John40332 (talk) 18:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No, John40332, you are wrong about the lack of consensus, and there is clear consensus against you linking to that commercial sheet music sales site. So, either you agree to stop doing so, or you get subjected to formal sanctions. Which will it be? Cullen328 (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

So CurryTime can throw random accusations until something sticks? John40332 (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

OK, then. John40332 is indefinitely blocked from article space. The editor is free to make well-referenced, formal edit requests on article talk pages. The editor is warned that continuing to attempt to add links to Sheet Music X may lead to a sitewide block. The editor is advised to read the Guide to appealing blocks. Cullen328 (talk) 19:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I made well referenced edits directly from a reputable publisher. Enjoy the power trip. John40332 (talk) 19:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal attacks which violate policy. Cullen328 (talk) 19:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Let me quote Misplaced Pages's page for Power Trip "(...) someone in a position of greater power uses that power unjustifiably against a lower-ranking person, typically just for display of dominance.", since you showed up just to block me when I haven't even edited anything else until this incident was cleared. I didn't spam, I'm not a bot, my account isn't compromised, I referenced a reputable publisher that due to CurryTime's WP:COI and WP:OWN made him start this issue. John40332 (talk) 19:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Put that shovel down before you are indef blocked completely. increase indef block to all namespaces for battleground mentality. Lavalizard101 (talk) 19:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The block is now sitewide. Cullen328 (talk) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Historian5328

• Historian5328 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I have been dealing with persistent additions of unreferenced numbers to Somali Armed Forces, Somali Navy, etc for some time. Rolling them back - they're never supported by sources that validate the data, or the sources are distorted.

In the last couple of days a new user, User:Historian5328 has also started showing this behaviour. But in this edit he's entering fantasy territory, saying the Somali Armed Forces are equipped with the Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II, which has never been exported beyond the United States Air Force. I would request that any interested administrator consider this account for blocking. Kind regards and Happy New Year, Buckshot06 (talk) 21:37, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Editor clearly has some serious WP:CIR issues, given this WP:MADEUP stuff, and using...let's say non-reliable sources elsewhere, without responding to any of the notices on their talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace so they can come here and explain themselves. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:05, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Just noting that the editor's username is User:Historian5328, not User:Historian 5328 and they were informed of this discussion. Liz 00:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

In the same regard, I would kindly request that any interested administrators review User_talk:YZ357980, who has been warned over and over and over again about adding unsourced and completely made up material (Somali Navy for example, consisting of 3,500 personnel..) Buckshot06 (talk) 03:51, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

I see you corrected their username in this report after I mentioned the mistake. Liz 07:19, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Liz, the original vandal and very problematic editor, who should be blocked immediately, was YZ357980. With all due regard to Historian5328, they display very similar behaviour, which immediately created a warning flag in my mind. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I’m relatively new to Misplaced Pages editing and only recently discovered that there is even a talk page. Regarding the active personnel for the Somali Armed Forces, I listed approx 20,000–30,000 (2024) and included a citation, which I believe does not warrant being blocked. I’m a beginner in Misplaced Pages editing, have no malicious intent, and do not believe I should be blocked. Moreover, I read from a Somalia media source that the Somali government had acquired A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft, believing the source to be authentic up until I discovered I was blocked. This was a mistake on my part, as I am new and inexperienced (2 days.) The individual who requested me to blocked must have had bad experiences which I’m not responsible for. I am requesting to be unblocked. Historian5328 (talk) 19:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion continued on user's talk page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:20, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

A reminder that the arbitration committee has designated the Horn of Africa a contentious topic, so don’t be afraid to lay down a CT advisory template for either user. 2600:1011:B32F:11B9:C826:BD54:45DF:3286 (talk) 08:30, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Both done - thanks for the reminder. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

• I've removed the pblock on Historian5328 as it appears what was happening was 'new user unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages's policies on reliable sourcing', but best to keep an eye on their edits. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:32, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Vofa and removal of sourced information

NO ACTION AT THIS TIME Participants reminded to attempt communicating with other editors before reporting their behaviour to ANI. asilvering (talk) 21:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This seems to be an ongoing issue.

Vofa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has lots of warnings about disruptive editing in their user page and a block.

Most recent example of removal of sourced information:

I checked the source and the information is there on page 7.

Previous examples include: . Also see: Talk:Finns#Vandalism_by_user:Vofa Bogazicili (talk) 16:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I just noticed that there is indeed an unsourced paragraph.

The reason for removal of sourced information would then be "removed text not relevant to Chagatai Khanate and Golden Horde in introduction". However the source does mention The first of the changes leading to the formation of the Turco-Mongolian tradition ... and then gives Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate as examples. I don't see any WP:V or WP:DUE issues.

I am concerned about removal of sourced information that does not seem to have a rationale based on Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines Bogazicili (talk) 16:41, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi there. The matter seems to be resolved. I did remove an unsourced paragraph and general claims not relevant to the introduction. I do not see a problem with it. You seem to have linked three edits I made. In the first edit, I had to revert because I accidentally chose the minor edit option. In the second edit, I have restored the previous version, but without a minor sign. I did not remove any sources (based on what I remember) I hope to see through my edits and understand what I did or did not do wrong. Please, avoid making an ANI in bad faith. Vofa (talk) 03:06, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

You removed source information. The part that starts with The ruling Mongol elites ...

@Asilvering: from the editor's talk page, you seem to be a mentor. Removing sources or sourced material without explanation, or with insufficient explanation or rationale, such as "Polished language" , is an ongoing concern with Vofa. Bogazicili (talk) 15:12, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Im not sure why I’m being stalked, but the edits you’re showing as examples of myself removing sources are more than two months old. I’ve stopped removing sources. Vofa (talk) 19:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

@Asilvering: This issue is still continuing Bogazicili (talk) 15:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

And you previously spoke to Vofa about this where...? -- asilvering (talk) 19:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

asilvering, I hadn't talked about removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale.

I did talk about this however . See: User_talk:Vofa#December_2024

I don't seek or expect a permanent block over this. But as a mentor and an administrator, maybe you can comment on removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale. Bogazicili (talk) 19:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

@Bogazicili, that's a threat, not an explanation. If you have a content dispute with an editor, which is what this appears to be, you need to be able to talk it out with them on the article's Talk page. @Vofa, please be careful to make sure your edit summaries explain what you're doing. I see that there was an unsourced statement in the link Bogazicili just supplied, so I presume that's what you meant by "unsourced". But the other statement you removed did have a source. It's ok to split your edits up into multiple edits if you need to do that to explain them properly, but you could also just give an edit summary like "removed unsourced; also, removed statement " that addresses both changes. -- asilvering (talk) 23:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Asilvering, I would not characterize this as a "content dispute". I was not involved in most of those articles. I got concerned after seeing edits market as minor removing sources or sourced material without any or proper explanation. That is not a content dispute, that is an editor conduct dispute. Bogazicili (talk) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

What Vofa does at articles related to Turko-Mongolian history is not a content dispute but vandalism. It took me a lot of time to manually revert the hoax years and figures he added in Turkmens article to decrease their population and he also removed sourced basic info from the lede of the Merkit tribe which I had to restore. These are just some of few sneaky vandalism examples that I caught among the pages I patrol by Vofa. If you see his talk page, he has been warned a lot of times by many other editors for such mischief. Theofunny (talk) 07:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Theofunny, Vofa hasn't edited the Turkmens article since before they were blocked. That is obviously not an ongoing issue. As for Merkit, I also see no discussion of those edits. If you have a problem with how someone is editing, you need to communicate with them. -- asilvering (talk) 08:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Asilvering, my concerns were removal of sourced information or sources without proper rationale or explanation. Do you think that was communicated enough to Vofa in this topic, or do we need further communication? I'm asking in case Vofa continues this type of behavior. Hopefully that won't be the case. Bogazicili (talk) 08:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Im going to repeat this again;

I have not removed any sources since I was warned about it.

I do not see an issue with my recent editing.

You should communicate with me on any issues that you have with me. Vofa (talk) 11:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Vofa, do you see any issues with this edit: Bogazicili (talk) 11:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you implying if I see an issue with this edit of mine or with your removal of said edit? Vofa (talk) 15:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Vofa, the former. I am asking if you see any issues yourself with your own linked edit. Bogazicili (talk) 17:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I do not see an issue with the linked edit of mine. Vofa (talk) 19:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Indeed, really the issue was Bogazicili's, and it has now been solved in the usual way (by restoring only the sourced content). Apologies, @Vofa, for misreading it earlier. -- asilvering (talk) 19:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Asilvering, I disagree. I did miss the unsourced paragraph. However, removal of sourced content has been an ongoing issue with Vofa. They should not have removed sourced content to begin with.

There was also a previous discussion in ANI:

Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1170#User:Vofa

Asilvering, again, is the threshold of communication met if removing sourced content by Vofa persists in the future? Bogazicili (talk) 19:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Basically, I'm not trying to get Vofa blocked, but they should be more careful in future when they remove sources or sourced content. They should have a reasonable rationale based in Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines, and they should explain that rationale properly. Bogazicili (talk) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Indeed they should. And you should not restore unsourced content once it has been removed. -- asilvering (talk) 20:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

asilvering, the difference is I already acknowledged it multiple times. Is that not obvious? Bogazicili (talk) 21:40, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

@Bogazicili, I'm going to close this report. No administrative action is required here at this time. You should make a habit of communicating on the article talk page when you get into a conflict with another editor, but you should always try to communicate with other editors before coming to ANI about their behaviour. This should be your last resort. If you make an earnest effort to communicate and are ignored, by all means report here. If there is edit-warring or obvious vandalism involved, please take that to the relevant noticeboard. -- asilvering (talk) 21:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. Vofa (talk) 11:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

This member often vandalises, in an article about Oirats he wrote huge numbers without backing them up with sources and tried to prove it was true. This is rabid vandalism. Incall 12:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Incall, vandalism has a specific meaning on Misplaced Pages; an edit being unsourced does not mean it was vandalism. Do not cast aspersions on other editors in this way. @Vofa, you are edit-warring on Oirats. You need to stop doing that immediately. -- asilvering (talk) 19:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I have not edited Oirats. I have stopped edit warring. Vofa (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Wikifascist" & Misplaced Pages:Casting aspersions

This one is pretty straightforward. An editor (@Last1in:) has deemed it OK to refer to me as a "wikifascist" on their talk page (User_talk:Last1in#My_ill-considered_comment). A clear case of Misplaced Pages:Casting aspersions, I find this to be extremely offensive. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:24, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

So apparently the editor has "retired" but is continuing editing using IPs? Anyway placed a warning for personal attacks on Last1in's user talk page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be the case. Sorry, I should have mentioned that — it's all around weird. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

User:YZ357980

• YZ357980 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I have just rolled back this edit () which (1) inaccurately introduces an incorrect Somali name into Somali Armed Forces; (2) installed a poor homemade copy of the Armed Forces crest dubious copyright and authenticity into the article, when a PD photo is visible in the infobox image; and (3) violated MOS:INFOBOXFLAG with the infobox.

I would kindly request any interested administrator to review the very dubious insertions of inflated personnel numbers introduced by this user into various Somali military articles, plus the error ridden and biased edits warned about at the top of the editor's talk page, with a view to a WP:TOPICBAN from African & Middle East military articles, widely construed. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

User:YZ357980 doesn't have a history of communicating with other editors. I have posted to their talk page, encouraging them to come to this discussion but I'm not optimistic that they are even aware that they have a User talk page. Liz 01:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I have given them a final warning and also a chance for them to participate here. If they don't, let's see what they get. Galaxybeing (talk) 06:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Incivility and ABF in contentious topics

Hob Gadling's uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it is problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:

Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883

WP:NPA

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324

Profanity

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966

Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877

Unicivil

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441

Contact on user page attempted

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795

Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Think this calls for a fierce trout slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a forced wikibreak according to WP:COOLDOWN, as this is just an angry user and frankly, I don't see direct personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as some diffs from the past few days are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. BarntToust 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Would I be the person to provide you with that further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions? I did think that it would be more than a WP:FISHSLAP, since that's for one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern warning. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Lardlegwarmers: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. Hob should know better, and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to WP:AVOIDEDITWAR. But I would caution you about WP:BOOMERANG and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your inappropriate recently deleted user page, removing sections from other people's talk page, and it seems like you're having a problem handling a WP:DISPUTE and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.

Furthermore it does appear that you might be WP:FORUMSHOPPING because your attempts at WP:POVPUSH for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. passively accusing editor behavior, directly accusing a specific editor bad behavior, claiming WP is political, RSN Report #1, RSN Report #2 to push for an article edit request, bringing the Covid discussion over to the teahouse, and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding Misplaced Pages's policy and guidelines and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards WP:CONSENSUS. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. TiggerJay (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. Thank you for your time and input.

Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: trying to report other editors in bad faith. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

@Lardlegwarmers: Jay brought something to my attention with a recent version of your user page. It looks like there is large language model (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason! I'm confused. This specific revision also assumes bad faith about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism. I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, since you are here at ANI now, what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT, in your own words. BarntToust 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @Thebiguglyalien, I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a formal warning or a trout slap is what needs to happen to Hob. BarntToust 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@IntrepidContributor, I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. please look at this diff on Lardle's user page for context, in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. BarntToust 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! *curtsy* Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". GiantSnowman 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' here? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word bullshit, which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, this supposed "disparag of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills" seems pretty temperate. And so on. Bishonen | tålk 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).

I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at this user page discussion where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - Palpable (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Hob Gadling failing to yield to WP:BLPRESTORE, apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. SmolBrane (talk) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Propose serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Recuse Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. SmolBrane (talk) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to BarntToust above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• As a note, Hob Gadling removed the ANI notice without comment and has not responded here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. BarntToust 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing WP:FRINGE misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as here, and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as here. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. Silverseren 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) bullshit to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that that was what led Lardlewarmers to try and their target on their talk page, a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward WP:BOOMERANG situation. --Aquillion (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "turn over a new leaf" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to tell people to stop before it's too late and stop treating aggressive or uncivil behavior as a "lesser" crime. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Lardlegwarmers#c-Liz-20241210000200-Editors_getting_banned_for_being_a_%22dick%22,_editing_Covid-19_articles
2. "All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution." https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests/ANI
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1266980661

Thread on List of Crypids talk page has devolved into an unproductive flame war

Talk:List of cryptids - Misplaced Pages

The thread, List rapidly further degrading initially started out as another attempt to delete the list and similar Cryptozoology pages but has now devolved into toxicity with insults and personal attacks directed at users engaging with the thread. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edelgardvonhresvelg (talk • contribs) 05:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Note that this account, an WP:SPA created in August of 2024 and focused on cryptozoology subjects, is likely one of the cryptozoology-aligned accounts discussed below (for example, the account's first edit is a cryptozoology edit). :bloodofox: (talk) 05:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not entirely focused on cryptozoology, as I have edited topics related to film, music, literature, zoology, video games, extinction, and technology. How is asking for an article to be cited on a zoology article related to cryptozoology? Edelgardvonhresvelg (talk) 06:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Edelgardvonhresvelg, what action are you seeking here? If you are making a complaint about personal attacks, you must provide evidence/"diffs" of examples of the conduct you are complaining about. Just mentioning a talk page without identifying the editors or edits that are problematic will likely result in no action being taken. You need to present a full case here and if you mention any editor by name, you need to post a notification of this discussion on their User talk page. Liz 08:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

User lobbying fringe subculture off-site for fringe subculture and suspicions of WP:MEATPUPPETry

It's said that Checkuser is not for fishing - well, ANI is also not a place to bring fishing expeditions. If you have evidence of recent misconduct by an editor, then by all means bring it. But if you just more would come to light, expect a {{trout}}ing. I'm closing this as unactionable with a fish for the OP, and a caution to in the future compile evidence before coming to ANI. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Over at cryptozoology and the very questionable list of cryptids, both extremely WP:FRINGE topics strongly linked to for example Young Earth creationism, myself and a few other users find ourselves having to respond to a lot of accounts that either openly or less than openly state that they're members of the article's subject subculture and that, like the subculture's founders, have a strong distaste for experts (here's an example anti-RS/anti-expert comment from today from one such fairly new account, @KanyeWestDropout:).

One of these editors, Paleface Jack (talk · contribs), has been caught lobbying off site (right here). The user has also likely done so elsewhere that hasn't come to light. This user's efforts appear to have led to a variety of WP:MEATPUPPETs popping up to WP:Wikilawyer any and all changes they disagree with, an effort to shape the articles to the subculture's preference.

Again, it's important to emphasize that not only has Paleface Jack been caught red-handed here but he has likely also lobbied elsewhere, leading to long-term problems for these and associated articles.

As some users here know, I edit a lot on fringe topics and have all but single-handedly written our coverage on topics like cryptozoology, utilizing nothing but the highest quality possible sources. Along the way, I've endured relentless insults and less-than-pleasant anonymous messages. I've been a personal target for users like Paleface Jack and co for years.

As is far too typical in our WP:FRINGE spaces, any action by myself and others introducing WP:RS on these articles is responded to with endless talk page lawyering and complaints from these cryptozoology-associated or -aligned editors, who fill talk pages with page after page of insult-ladden chatter about anything that doesn't fit their preferred messaging. This not infrequently includes insults toward non-adherents abiding by WP:RS and WP:NPOV (as an example, recently one of the users decided to refer to me as a "wikifascist", for example). This pattern has been going on for years and is a clear indication of long-term Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing and I've frankly put up wth it for far too long.

This is an all too common pattern that many editors who edit in new religious movement, pseudoscience, or fringe spaces will recognize as an unfortunate reality of editing in these spaces on the site.

I recommend that Paleface Jack be topic banned for off-site lobbying for meatpuppets, if nothing else, as well as likely associated accounts per WP:MEATPUPPET. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I don't have any disdain for Loxton and Prothero, all I said was that cryptozoologists have historically discussed a large number of "cryptids" which is something you could see from reading cryptozoologist papers ans books. I've previously cited Loxton/Prothero on cryptozoological wikipedia pages KanyeWestDropout (talk) 06:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

This user's actual comment in response to my mention of Prothero & Loxton, a dreaded WP:RS: "Learning about cryptozoologists by reading secondhand sources is a poor way to find out what cryptozoologists have actually done historically" (). Funny how a spotlight on ANI can change an editor's tune. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thaf didnt change my tune at all! I mentioned that I personally liked that book before you posted this KanyeWestDropout (talk) 14:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The incident Bloodoffox is referring to happened years ago when I did not know that was even a rule. It was a mistake I have not repeated, nor have I violated any rules since that incident.

That being said, Bloodoffox has a history of antagonizing other users associated with the topic. I am not aware of any of the other occasions where he has been harassed by users, so I sympathize. There are bad editors on this site that do that behavior or make edits that are, in kinder words, sloppy. Fringe topics are constrained as they are to avoid pandering or making it a massive advocation for them and should remain within the neutral guidelines that are enforced on fringe topics.

Yes, the topics do need a lot of work, and its hard to find the few good editors that know what they are doing with fringe topics. I myself follow the topic out of interest, not advocacy, and I rarely edit on it mainly cause of a backlog of other projects. I don't pop on to cause trouble as Bloodoffox loves to accuse me of, among the many personal attacks he has made against me. I have had no such incidents since my mistake way back in the day and I have not made any since then. The sole reason I commented in the discussion was because I could see it was rapidly devolving into an antagonistic nature, and though my words could have been put differently, I always wrote that we "needed to find common ground". It has become a point of frustration with this, because of personal attacks on my character and what I have contributed to this site. I am not a disruptor by any means and Bloodoffox has keep making accusations or belittling comments in regards to me and other users who disagree with him. His aggressive and belittling behavior has a huge role in antagonizing other users and it does need to stop. I might be frustrated, but I cannot see how this does any good with moving projects and topics forwards. Banning me from the topic is unnecessary and overkill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paleface Jack (talk • contribs)

If the only example of off-wiki canvasing is a single blog post from seven years ago, I'm not seeing any case for sanctions. - Bilby (talk) 07:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

This is the only clear incident I've encountered. However, there's good reason to suspect that there's more. Note also that although the user is happy to apologize about it when called on it here, the user also never deleted the off-site lobbying on the cryptozoology wiki. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I can see a case for a {{trout}} for the OP, at the very least. (Trout-erang?) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Bloodofox, if this has been a contentious area to edit in (there are many such areas on the project) but we can't sanction editors based on suspicions, we require evidence of misconduct and if it is off-wiki behavior, it might be more appropriate to send it to ARBCOM. You have provided a narrative statement of how difficult it is to edit in this field but with few diffs illustrating conflict and other editors have providing competing narratives. This isn't your first trip to ANI so you know what is required here for an admin to take action. And if you do provide some more evidence, I encourage you to provide RECENT evidence (like from the past 3 years), not diffs or statements from when an editor was new and unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages policies and practices. Liz 08:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

While the editor has been been editing since 2013 and his off-site post was from 2018 (yet somehow claims to not know it was not OK to canvas for meatpuppets off-site), I figured this might be the case and hoped more would come to light about what's going on off-site (I expect more will, in which case I'll return). :bloodofox: (talk) 08:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

As I have said before, I am not used to conflict on the site and naively did that. If you look back at that whole debate, I did reply saying I was not aware that it was bad. If you look at my history of edits, I rarely (if ever) participate in conflict. I prefer to edit like everyone else on here in a constructive and beneficial manner, so all those accusations strike a nerve with me as they are both untrue and slander. As I have said previously, bloodoffox has a history of provoking conflict by aggressive behavior towards other editors, even when those editors are in the wrong they should not be treated with the level of disdain and contempt. Slandering myself or others either based on an isolated and admitted mistake, then constantly bringing it up as "proof" of his claims that I am an instigator of any sort of conflict he has with others is behavior that only inspires destructive conflicts or edits. I have, in the past, reached out to bloodoffox to apologize and also offer assistance with other projects thinking that would mend any sort of anger and hate. This recent incident has proved me wrong and I am sad to see that it has come to this. I never wanted any conflict, just a healthy way of moving forwards to tackle fascinating and notable topics.

I will admit that it is frustratingly difficult to make edits on fringe topics, I am one of those people that tried to edit some but got frustrated by the overly tight restrictions on the subject (not that I was leaning to one side as some claim I do), which is why I rarely edit on the topic and only do so when I see that there is reliable information benefiting and fitting of the standards set by Misplaced Pages. I love information, and even fringe topics have enough within Misplaced Pages's confines to exist on the site and be a fascinating read for people. I truly hope you read this bloodoffox and realize I never meant you ill or advocate for people harassing you, I want this platform to explore information correctly and efficiently, even if we do not agree with the topic. That is pretty much all that should be said on this matter and hopefully it gets resolved. Paleface Jack (talk) 17:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rangeblock request to stop ban evasion by Dealer07

Blocks fall. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Dealer07 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• 62.74.24.0/21 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))
• 2A02:85F:F070:E175:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))

The Greek vandal User:Dealer07 was blocked for edit-warring over nationality and ethnicity. In the past few hours, five new Greek IPs have been rapidly restoring preferred edits: Special:Contributions/62.74.24.244, Special:Contributions/62.74.24.229, Special:Contributions/62.74.24.251, Special:Contributions/62.74.24.220 and Special:Contributions/62.74.24.207. I propose we engage a rangeblock rather than play whackamole on a series of single IPs. Can we block the range Special:Contributions/62.74.24.0/21? Thanks in advance.

Note that the range Special:Contributions/2A02:85F:F070:E175:0:0:0:0/64 was blocked very recently for the same reasons. Binksternet (talk) 06:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• I've blocked 62.74.0.0/18 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) for 6 months and Ahecht has blocked 2A02:85F:F070:E175:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) for 1 month. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Taboo of archaeologists

This is fundamentally a content dispute, I see nothing admin-actionable here. 331dot (talk) 10:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This is about by Jahuah. They claim that an unprovenanced archaeological object is authentic. Bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss unprovenanced objects in public. It's a taboo of their profession. So, no bona fide archaeologist can give the lie to the authenticity of that object without losing their job. Since if they mention that object in public they get sacked. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Lol, reporting on me? Jahuah (talk) 06:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Give me an actual reason why the specific seal in question is not authentic? How about that? Quote me an actual scholar who does? If not, then your words mean jack. Jahuah (talk) 06:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

According to critical rationalism, the claim that such object is authentic is unfalsifiable. Since it is taboo to discuss such object in public. So only biased hacks could affirm it is authentic or inauthentic without losing their jobs. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you think it’s inauthentic? Or not? Please do not be wasting my time here. Jahuah (talk) 06:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

It think that claim is utterly unfalsifiable, so it cannot amount to science. See for details The Shapira Strips: What Are They and Are They Forgeries? on YouTube by Dr. Robert R. Cargill. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for actually giving me an answer at least. Jahuah (talk) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

What exactly are you asking admins to do there? This looks to me like a content dispute. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Who, me? I’m not asking anything. I just wanted to show how a seal dated by a scholar to the 8th century is indeed an 8th century BC Israelite seal of Hoshea.

The guy up there has a problem with that and now apparently I’m on the naughty list. Jahuah (talk) 07:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@The Bushranger: I have explained them at length why this is utterly problematic, previously. I had expected that they will behave. Misbehaving is a behavioral problem. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I think I know how to behave, thank you very much. I’m not a petulant manchild. Jahuah (talk) 07:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

See User talk:Jahuah#December 2024 and Talk:Uzziah#Uzziah Seals. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Lol, I refuted you there. All you did was attack Dr. Mykytiuk and call into question his scholarship. Jahuah (talk) 07:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Besides, what does this have to do with the Hoshea seal? Jahuah (talk) 07:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't expect any of you to take my word for it, that why I had WP:CITED https://web.archive.org/web/20241209232716/https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/archaeology-today/the-problem-with-unprovenanced-objects/ Suffices to say that unprovenanced objects are ethically and juridically fishy. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

So no comment on my refutation of your petulant behavior? Jahuah (talk) 07:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Who’s “any of you” by the way? I’m one guy. Jahuah (talk) 07:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

You're (only you, not The Bushranger) promoting a claim that is unfalsifiable, unethical, and maybe even juridically problematic. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:18, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Ooo, that’s a new one. Jahuah (talk) 07:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Nope, if you had read carefully what I told you in 2024, there is nothing new about my claim. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

i can tell you’re clearly upset with me. >:). Good. You guys represent scholarship only when it suits your ideology. Jahuah (talk) 07:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

It's not about my ideology. It is about: bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss such claims in public. So no bona fide archaeologist could affirm that that object is authentic or inauthentic, because the next day they will have to flip burgers at Target. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Fine whatever, I apologize. Jahuah (talk) 07:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• Demands to prove a negative are a nonsensical and puerile debating tactic. The editor must cite evidence that the item is considered authentic, or refrain from stating so in WP's voice. Simple as that. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 07:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Is the editor referring to me? Jahuah (talk) 07:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  If so, here you go. Lawrence J. Mykytiuk, Identifying Biblical Persons in Northwest Semitic Inscriptions of 1200-539 B.C.E. (Boston: Brill, 2004), 58., https://www.academia.edu/62900860/Iconography_on_Hebrew_Seals_and_Bullae_Identifying_Biblical_Persons_and_the_Apparent_Paradox_of_Egyptian_Solar_Symbols_ABSTRACT_ Jahuah (talk) 07:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Since bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss it, you win by default? tgeorgescu (talk) 07:22, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Elmidae, were you referring to me? Jahuah (talk) 07:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Bona fide archaeologists will lose their jobs for merely mentioning Mykytiuk's claim. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  I was talking to Elmidae. Jahuah (talk) 07:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, they were talking to you. Also both of you take a chill pill for a minute, please - this disucssion is already approaching WP:TLDR levels of length from the back-and-forth above. Tgeorgescu, you don't have to respond to everything Jahuah says esepecially when it's in response to other editors. Jahuah, i can tell you’re clearly upset with me. >:). Good. is not an attitude conducive to cooperative editing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Fine, fine, I apologize. I’m just angry that my contributions to Misplaced Pages get deleted. I just wanna leave some edits and then I’ll leave this site for good. I promise. Jahuah (talk) 08:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  I also want to make sure my contributions are kept before I leave. Jahuah (talk) 08:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  This editor appears to be edit warring across multiple pages to assert historical uncertainties as fact based on unconfirmed and speculative research from biblical archaeology blogs and the like. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Oh look, BAR society is no longer reputable because some Misplaced Pages mod said so. Jahuah (talk) 07:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  By the way, who am I edit warring with? That’s news to me. Jahuah (talk) 07:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  We don't have "mods" on Misplaced Pages. But you have only been editing for a month so it shouldn't be expected that you would know much about how Misplaced Pages works. Liz 08:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hmph. I guess I’ll go then. Sorry for the trouble I caused. Jahuah (talk) 08:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Jahuah, I wasn't asking you to leave the project, just pointing out that you are a newer editor. Misplaced Pages is chockful of rules and guidelines and it's not realistic to expect new editors to be familiar with them all. Liz 09:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  No, no. It’s ok. It’s clear that I have caused more problems here than solved. I just hope my contributions will stay, or at least be kept until new data comes. I’ll be out of your hairs soon. Jahuah (talk) 10:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

it's an unprovenanced object and likely a forgery it was not found in a licensed archaeological excavation it does not possess a credible chain of custody this is very much too good to be true but since people of faith want to believe it and since it's not against the law to use your free speech to make false claims like this forgers will make forgeries and antiquities dealers will put them up for sale and try to make as much money as they can but these kind of forgeries pollute legitimate biblical archaeology and it is why so many scholars myself included do not publish critical reviews of unproven objects once you give them credence their value is increased even if you put a little asterisk by them and designate them as unprovenanced and merely teach the controversy you are still giving them scholarly recognition and debate that the forger and the antiquities dealer so desperately crave publishing unprovenanced objects leads to looting and to forgeries it's that simple

— Dr. Robert R. Cargill, transcript

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 08:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

tgeorgescu, this is becoming a detailed content dispute which means it probably should be closed as off-topic for this noticeboard. Liz 09:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• For the record, tg's hysterical talk about disgraced archeologists flipping burgers at Target is nonsense. There is vigorous controversy about unprovenanced objects, but no one's losing their job for breaking some alleged taboo. EEng 06:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

HoraceAndTheSpiders

Attention gotten and message received. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• HoraceAndTheSpiders (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Could someone briefly block User:HoraceAndTheSpiders to get their attention, or come up with better way to get them to read their talk page/comply with the WP:ARBECR restrictions. Thanks. Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Done. I've left a note on their talkpage that they will almost certainly be unblocked if they promise to keep away from ARBPIA until they are extended-confirmed. Black Kite (talk) 11:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Sean.hoyland The editor has submitted a suitable unblock request, so I have unblocked. Please let me know if they stray into ARBPIA again. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 12:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

TTTEMLPBrony and continued addition of unsourced/crufty material, zero communication

Blocked. Now CU-blocked. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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TTTEMLPBrony (talk · contribs) has been active since late April 2024. They have a history of adding of unsourced and sometimes controversial material. They have been messaged and warned plenty of times, including by FlightTime, Doniago and LindsayH, but to no avail. Better yet, they haven't responded once on their own talk page.WP:COMMUNICATION is required and they do not seem to be willing or able to work with others. I've issued them a warning earlier this week, but looking at their talk page, I see they've been issued stern warnings plenty of times. And despite messages about adding sources, in late December 2024 they created List of second unit directors, which is barely referenced. soetermans. 12:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

They may be unaware of their talkpage, even though 8 months seems a long time for that. I have blocked indefinitely, with an informative message and a link to their talkpage in the log. Unfortunately that's sometimes the only way to get the attention of a non-responsive user. Bishonen | tålk 15:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC).

They know about talk pages, Bishonen, because they have used one at least once; i checked when i first tried to communicate with them to no avail. That being said, i think this is a good use of a block, showing we are serious when we say communication is necessary ~ Lindsay 17:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• Indefinitely blocked after only 5-hours, without the user even editing during that period? For a first offence? After only warnings of the lowest level? I'm no sure why User:Soetermans even created this request, as there'd been zero editing of the page in question since his talk-page warning 3 days earlier! Much of the edits seem to be merely content disputes. I don't see much repition after notification. And we don't even have rules about providing sources. There was no imminent risk of damage here, and I don't think the conditions laid out in WP:INDEF have been met. And WP:BLOCKDURATION most certainly hasn't been met. This is an appallingly awful block User:Bishonen. Can I that you reduce it to a week or less just to get attention. I'd suggest a day, but the editor is so infrequent, that they may not not notice. Though given they are moderating their behaviour based on what is posted in their talk page, even a block is barely justified. Nfitz (talk) 00:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I disagree. When an editor refuses to communicate, it's not uncommon for an admin to block until the editor responds. Even the block notice tells them Please respond below this post and start communicating, and you may be unblocked. Sometimes it's a case where inexperienced editors simply don't realize that they have a talk page or that people are leaving them messages. This block gently brings it to their attention. Schazjmd (talk) 00:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I see nothing in policy for an indefinite. And an indefinite block is absolutely not "gently". It's the kind of heavy-handed authoritarianism that drives the people we need away. There seemed to be edits that were a real attempt to improve Misplaced Pages. And there seemed to be changes in behaviour that were guided by the comments on the talk page. And there hadn't even been any further edits of concern since the previous warning - days ago. Sure, for Misplaced Pages warriors who frequent ANI, a block is just something you deal with; but I don't think that's how many people would see it. Nfitz (talk) 00:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Indef is "until you address the issue", not forever. Schazjmd (talk) 00:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I believe we are all aware of that. The issue is that doing so, at this stage, is completely outside of our policy, and that doing so for a minor case like this is completely outside of policy. We can't just make start doing things a different way because the admin feels like it. Our policy says that "Indefinite blocks are usually applied when there is significant disruption or threats of disruption, or major breaches of policy". The threat was neither significant (or even very recent) or a major breach of policy. I note that the user in question was only given 5 hours to respond, but after 4 hours, we'd still had no response from User:Bishonen, perhaps she should also have been blocked for not noticing the discussion (yeah, that's irony, not a proposal). Nfitz (talk) 06:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• TTTEMLPBrony has now responded, stating that "I have not realized that accounts have talkpages", so apparently my block worked as intended. Unfortunately, they go on to say that their little brother did it, and also that they allowed the brother to use the account. Blithely they claim that "I have already dealt with him" - uh, "already"? Anyway, whether or not I believe them about the brother (I can't say I do), the account is clearly compromised, and must stay blocked. With some hesitation, I've turned the block into a softblock, so that they may create a new account, and have explained that they must absolutely not share it with anybody. I have notified the stewards in case they want to globally lock. Bishonen | tålk 03:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC).
  • Just because, User:Bishonen, it worked, doesn't mean that you are allowed to just make up your own rules. (but yeah, sounds fishy ... on the other hand, it's probably a child). Please follow protocol, or hand over your keys. Thanks. Nfitz (talk) 06:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Nfitz, please be more polite on these noticeboards. The block Bishonen placed was perfectly fine and it's the kind of thing admins have been doing for years. Nothing in policy forbids it, and I believe The Bushranger's response is along the same lines. Besides, the editor's edit were, and I'm trying to stay polite myself, not good, as their talk page full of warnings indicates: no edit summaries, no responses, no communication, no knowledge of sourcing and sourcing requirements. Finally, I don't know how young that editor might be, but I do know that they are four years older than when Ponyo blocked them. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
      • I've noted elsewhere that in retrospect that I look like an idiot, given what else has transpired - and that they are a sock-puppet only makes it worse for me on that. That said, in this circumstance, there is zero support in policy for an indefinite. An indefinite should not be the starting point of a block, especially for an infrequent editor. That policy has been broken before "for years" doesn't make it okay. Fix the policy if you think that's what should be happening. I don't see any impoliteness here. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jypian gaming extended confirmed

SOCK BLOCKED I've run out of sock puns, sorry. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Sock blocked. EEng

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Jypian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

On J.P. (rapper), the user is making pointless edits after having been here for exactly thirty days. Clearly gaming extended confirmed. 🐔 Chicdat   12:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I been making real edits since I created my account please take your time to check and I’m sorry for purposely pointless edits for extended confirmed on Day 30. I’m a real and genuine user I just wanted early access to work and edit on important stuffJypian (talk) 13:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

For what reason are you doing this? 331dot (talk) 13:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The thing is, articles that only extended confirmed users can edit are like that for a reason. What kinds of important stuff were you planning on working on? 🐔 Chicdat   13:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Donald Trump Hotel Accident Jypian (talk) 13:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Considering you've admitted you've gaming the system you need to voluntary agree to refrain from editing anything that requires EC until you've made 500 real edits. The permission will be removed if you don't follow this. I'd also suggest stay away from the Donald Trump hotel article until you've gotten at least a few thousand edits under your belt since being so desperate to edit an article is usually a sign once you do start editing you'll get into trouble. Nil Einne (talk) 14:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I have revoked their extended-confirmed permission. They may re-request it from WP:PERM after making 500 legitimate edits. —Ingenuity (t • c) 14:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Im going to edit Donald Trump hotel accident, whatever you want it or not😡 JupianCircles (talk) 14:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

If you create alternative accounts to try and bypass your primary account's restrictions, you will end up being banned. GiantSnowman 14:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

It's unnecessary to threaten or to evade restrictions; you can propose edits via the edit request wizard. If they are nonsense, though, expect to be blocked as well. 331dot (talk) 14:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• Blocked. Blocked as a sock by NinjaRobotPirate. Bishonen | tålk 15:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC).

  That makes sense. 331dot (talk) 15:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks for the action NinjaRobotPirate. 🐔 Chicdat   15:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• As an aside, is it possible to take away the EC permission before it is achieved or otherwise prevent it being automatically gained? I said what I said above because I incorrectly thought they hadn't yet achieved EC. Given this I thought either an admin would need to watch out for them (unless there's an admin bot which can do this) or they could voluntary refrain from using their EC and this wouldn't be necessary. But I checked after and realised I was wrong about them not gaining EC and I'm wondering if I could be wrong about the removal of EC before it's automatically gained. Nil Einne (talk) 16:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think it's possible to prevent an account from obtaining EC by granting and immediately revoking it. That apparently stops the account from getting it automatically because it has obtained EC before. QwertyForest (talk) 16:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Interesting, thanks. Useful to know for the future. Nil Einne (talk) 17:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Footballnerd2007

This is going nowhere fast. Whether or not Footballnerd2007 is using an LLM to respond to conversations, they've promised to stay out of other editors' userspace drafts, been notified they shouldn't start RfAs for other editors without speaking to them, and said that they would be more careful with moves. (On that note, I can't warn Footballnerd2007 to not close RM discussions, but I'd highly recommend they avoid doing so until they become more acquainted with community norms.) voorts (talk/contributions) 22:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I need a second pair of eyes on Footballnerd2007 (talk · contribs) please - apparently a new editor, but they have been closing RM discussions - including one where they introduced a typo, see Dory (special) which I have fixed - and they have also been messing around moving my user space pages (see User:GiantSnowman/Mbunya Alemanji) and they have also created Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Cyberdog958. None of this is the action of a new editor and my Spidey senses are tingling. GiantSnowman 19:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't see an urgent or intractable issue here. Unless/until stronger evidence comes up, I'm going to assume that they're trying to help and suggest we respond accordingly. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd like to clarify a point in your message. The statement "and they have also been messing around moving my user space pages (see User:GiantSnowman/Mbunya Alemanji)" should be corrected. I have only moved one page, not multiple pages. Please adjust the wording to reflect this accurately. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 19:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

A response like that is not helping with my suspicions and concerns. GiantSnowman 20:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

What exactly am I being accused of? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

You are either an extremely over enthusiastic new editor making mistakes - in which case you need to slow down a lot, and listen ASAP - or you are a sock trying to be clever. GiantSnowman 20:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The former is rather accurate. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

GiantSnowman, if you have evidence, then the appropriate forum is WP:SPI. If you don't, then you're liable to get hit with a boomerang for WP:NPA/WP:ASPERSIONS, even if you end up happening to be correct. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

And what would my boomerang punishment be? GiantSnowman 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

How do I go about making a complaint against him for violating WP:NPA/WP:ASPERSIONS? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Response

Hello GiantSnowman,

Thank you for raising these concerns. I'd like to address the points you mentioned:

1. Botched Page Moves: Regarding the page moves, I made an attempt to improve the accuracy and consistency of article titles based on my understanding of the situation. I acknowledge that there was a typo introduced, which I appreciate being pointed out, and I have since corrected it. I’ll be more careful in the future to ensure that such errors do not occur.

2. Messing with User Space Draft: I apologise for any disruption caused to your user space draft. My intention was never to interfere with your content. I recognise that user space is personal, and I will be mindful to avoid making any uninvited changes moving forward.

3. Creation of an RFA for Cyberdog958: As for the RFA for Cyberdog958, I stand by my decision to create it. I believed that Cyberdog958 hads demonstrated the necessary qualities for adminship and could be a positive asset to the community. There was no ill intent behind my actions. The RFA was made based on a genuine belief that they were qualified, and I will continue to support nominations that I feel are appropriate based on the contributions and behavior I observe.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings. I strive to make constructive contributions and act in good faith, and I appreciate your understanding.

Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

RFA - why didn't you discuss with the editor first? GiantSnowman 20:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I wasn't aware there was a requirement to do so. I did notify them! Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Before you made the RFA??? No. GiantSnowman 20:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I wasn’t pinged about this ANI, but I found it through the RFA message on my talk page. I guess I appreciate the thought, if it was coming from a sincere place, but I would have declined the nomination if I was asked. I’ve never come across this user or interacted with them in any way until now so I’m not sure why they picked me. cyberdog958 20:46, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Footballnerd2007, given that Cyberdog958 has confirmed that they have never interacted with you, please confirm how you found them to nominate them for RFA?

Similarly, how did you find me this afternoon, as I similarly have never heard of or interacted with you before today? GiantSnowman 21:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Footballnerd2007 thank you for trying to help out, and I'm sorry that GiantSnowman has chosen to escalate this in the way that he has. Page moves can be tricky, and you might want to sit back and watch the process for a while before participating in it yourself. Regarding RFA, it's a serious decision that people usually mull over for years before they finally agree to submit their names, so it's going to be more than a little jarring to have someone else do it on one's behalf. With the user space, it seems you understand the issue so there's no need to retread that. Going forward, I suggest taking things slow and asking for help whenever you think about entering a new area. I've been doing this for a few years now, and I still reach out to someone with experience in the area if I think I want to try something new! Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Footballnerd2007, the response that you made at 20:08 has formatting that I have only seen before from AI, never from a human editor. Was it made with an LLM? If so please talk to us in your own words. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I have the feeling that a lot of this editor's comments are AI produced. GiantSnowman 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I refer you to my previous answer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for that link - I see therefore that other users have raised concerns with you only yesterday about your RM/discussion closes, and yet you have continued to make poor closes today. Why is that? Why therefore should we trust you when you say you won't do it again, given you have done it again? GiantSnowman 21:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Yesterday I didn't say I wouldn't do it again, today I have, albeit reluctantly, changed my position for the sake of keeping the peace. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Why did you continue to make the same questionable edits that other editors have previously queried with you? Unless you are deliberately trying to be disruptive? GiantSnowman 21:46, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Transparently LLM output. Folly Mox (talk) 21:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Yet here they deny using Chat GPT. So either it's not LLM (and multiple users have raised these suspicions, which I share) and just very odd language, or they are a liar. Which is it? GiantSnowman 21:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

What unsubjctive hard evidence do you have to support that allegation? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I pulled 11 random AI detectors from Google. Of them, seven give a 100% AI rating. One gives 50% and the 3 others give 0%. Tarlby 21:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The final 3 are 100% accurate. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

And the 7 others? Tarlby 21:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I have no explanation. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Because there is none - it's absolutely AI generated, you don't need a detector for that. While not against policy, it's heavily frowned upon, as it's not your words but the LLM's. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

And given that you have repeatedly denied use LLM, you are a liar and cannot be trusted. GiantSnowman 21:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT because I didn't, that's not a lie and you have no evidence to suggest to the contrary. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

But you have been using a LLM of some kind, yes? GiantSnowman 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

No comment. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

We'll take that as a 'yes' then - and that you therefore have not been truthful. The tiny modicum of AGF I had has now fully disappeared. GiantSnowman 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

So you're accusing me of lying now? As I have said before, I didn't use ChatGPT. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I am accusing you of lying. GiantSnowman 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

That's a serious allegation, what evidence do you have that I use ChatGPT? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The blatantly AI generated response is Exhibit A. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'm pretty sure there's LLMs that aren't ChatGPT. But if you're saying "I didn't use a LLM/AI generator at all", then that is demonstratably false. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

And if you're trying to be clever by saying "I use LLM but not ChatGPT", your comments here have been disingenuous and misleading. You are digging yourself a hole. GiantSnowman 21:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I never made any comment about LLMs in general. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Please answer this direct question - have you used LLM? If so, why didn't you own up to that when asked? GiantSnowman 21:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

🤦‍♂️ Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict)So that's "yes" then, got it. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:LLMDISCLOSE applies (even if only an essay). GiantSnowman 22:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

You're not helping your case right now. Even if you're getting dogpiled (especially if you're getting dogpiled) you need to speak clearly and directly. You'll gain far more goodwill by saying you're using an LLM and agreeing to stop. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thebiguglyalien, do you now understand why my red flags were flagging earlier? There is something off about this editor. GiantSnowman 22:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't disagree with your analysis. I disagree with the way you approached it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

A fair criticism. GiantSnowman 22:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm sure you've had to deal with this sort of thing far more than I have, so I get that. My philosophy is just that I'd rather give dozens of "cases" that extra chance if it means salvaging one well-meaning productive editor. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Which is what I usually try and do, but the alarm bells just really rang here, and I simply wanted a second pair of eyes on the contribs to tell me "yes it's fishy" or "no you're thinking too much". I did not envision this discussion! GiantSnowman 22:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 22:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Stop choosing your words carefully. I'm trying to give you a chance that isn't often afforded to new editors here, and you're trying to WP:Wikilawyer, which is also against the rules. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Here's the deal - either you used AI, or you my words very carefully in a way that is how AI distinctively chooses them. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Here's 4 more AI detectors. Two give 100%, one says 11% (literally the last two sentences), and the other gives 50%. Tarlby 22:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Which AI detectors are you using? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

possible hoaxes

• Emilioveh (talk · contribs)
• Emnoé (talk · contribs)
• Larissæ (talk · contribs)
• Miguelinor (talk · contribs)
• Nose236 (talk · contribs)

The above accounts are sockpuppets that have been blocked on the Spanish Misplaced Pages for creating articles with unverifiable references or with scarce references taken out of context. I recommend reviewing all the articles that these accounts have created here as they may be hoaxes.--Fontaine347 (talk) 04:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

As a note, you don't appear to have notified any of these editors about this section, which is something you need to do when you open a section on this noticeboard. - Purplewowies (talk) 05:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I've notified all the users about this possible hoax issue already. Suggest any action from administrators if possible. Galaxybeing (talk) 05:30, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Fair enough, that's a valid notion, Fontaine347. Feel free to do so! Ravenswing 12:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Edit warring to prevent an RFC

@Axad12 has removed an RFC tag from Talk:Breyers#Request for comment on propylene glycol now twice within an hour.

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Reasons and ways to end RfCs provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list.

We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an Misplaced Pages:Ownership of content problem or a Misplaced Pages:Walled garden that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm not saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in some cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute.

I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/FAQ. See you tomorrow. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC.

I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith.

The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. Axad12 (talk) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. Axad12 (talk) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Axad12, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have absolutely no conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. Cullen328 (talk) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Axad12, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. WhatamIdoing, a {{trout}} for WP:GRENADEing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template.

The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. Axad12 (talk) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be falsely accused of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that exceptionally serious abuse? Cullen328 (talk) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request.

I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request).

As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content.

Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. Axad12 (talk) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

"Asking a second time" is not WP:Gaming the system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. Axad12 (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the WP:UPPERCASE. See, e.g., An editor gaming the system is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support. Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy.

I also direct your attention to the item that says Gaming the system may include...Filibustering the consensus-building process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to WP:GAMINGTHESYSTEM, which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. Axad12 (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not highly misleading.

I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. Axad12 (talk) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? Phil Bridger (talk) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved.

I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. Axad12 (talk) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when WP:COIN can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one fad diet book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer.

But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my not-inconsiderable experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself.

It isn't really relevant here but actually I didn't expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. Axad12 (talk) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor tag-teamed with Graywalls, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article. Both users refused collaboration on the Breyers article content at DRN.

Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue.

Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (article link) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative.

Proposal: Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and here, as another example, Axad12 and Graywalls should be A-banned from the Breyers article and its talk page.

• Support. Zefr (talk) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
  • You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Oppose: I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard.

  I have not ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them.

  Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024.

  I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make.

  Also, the idea that I made a hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect.

  I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time.

  Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at WP:COIN, but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. Axad12 (talk) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. here, because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see User_talk:DMacks#Breyers_disruptive_editing for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling Special:Diff/1261441062. @Aoidh: also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see Special:Diff/1257252695 Graywalls (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Complaint against User:GiantSnowman

This complaint has been withdrawn.See #Response from Footballnerd2007 below.

Good Morning,

I am writing to formally lodge a complaint against User:GiantSnowman for repeated violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on personal attacks (WP:NPA) and casting aspersions (WP:ASPERSIONS) during a recent discussion.

Throughout the interaction, GiantSnowman has engaged in behavior that appears to contravene Misplaced Pages's behavioral guidelines, including but not limited to:

Casting aspersions without evidence:

• GiantSnowman repeatedly accused me of engaging in disruptive behavior, suggesting ulterior motives without providing any verifiable evidence.
• For instance, accusations of using ChatGPT to generate responses without concrete proof.
• Statements like “You are a liar and cannot be trusted” and other similar assertions lack civility and violate the principle of Assume Good Faith.

Aggressive tone and unwarranted accusations:

• The user's tone throughout the discussion has been hostile, escalating to direct personal attacks:
• Referring to me as a “liar” multiple times.
• Suggesting that I have been “deliberately disruptive” without presenting any factual basis.

Violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:ENCOURAGE:

• Misplaced Pages encourages editors to respond constructively to newcomers' efforts. However, GiantSnowman’s behavior has been dismissive and accusatory, discouraging participation and creating a hostile editing environment.

As an administrator, GiantSnowman is expected to set an example by adhering to Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies and fostering a collaborative environment. However, their actions in this instance fall far short of the standards expected of administrators, which further exacerbates the seriousness of this issue.

I understand that discussions can sometimes be contentious, but I believe there is no justification for violating WP:NPA or WP:ASPERSIONS. I respectfully request that administrators review the linked discussion and take appropriate action to address this behavior.

If any additional information or clarification is needed, I am happy to provide it. My intent is to ensure a respectful and collaborative editing environment for all Misplaced Pages contributors.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion I raised was at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Footballnerd2007, now closed. I raised concerns about this editor, who has (in brief) - undertake botched and inappropriate RM closures; re-factored other editor's talk page posts; randomly nominated another user with whom they have never interacted before for RFA; and messing with my user space draft. None of that was the conduct of a new editor here to learn the ropes, and I wanted a second pair of eyes.

In the course of that discussion, it became highly suspect to multiple users that this user has been editing with LLM. They denied using Chat GPT and, when questioned further, refused to answer. That is why I said this user is a liar and cannot be trusted, and I stand by that assertion. GiantSnowman 12:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Pinging other editors who were involved in that ANI discussion or have posted concerns/advice on this user's talk page - @Liz, Voorts, Folly Mox, Tiggerjay, Extraordinary Writ, Tarlby, The Bushranger, Thebiguglyalien, and Cyberdog958: - think that is everyone, apologies if not. GiantSnowman 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for your speedy response. Now let other admins add their point of view. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Given the closed section above - which was closed for a very good reason - I'd suggest that coming back to this page to complain and using an LLM to do it is a spectacularly bad idea. The community only has limited patience when dealing with editors who are causing timesinks for other edits, and I suspect that the section above was your limit. Black Kite (talk) 12:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  WP:BOOMERANG is worth reviewing. It may already be too late for you to withdraw your complaint, but it's probably worth an attempt. --Yamla (talk) 12:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Please, any passing uninvolved admin, block the OP now. Not least for using an LLM to generate a complaint that someone accused them of using ChatGPT to generate responses. Enough of our time has been wasted. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Again, this is mere conjecture. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Continuing to deny the obvious - especially when Tarlby ran your posts through multiple LLM checkers - is really not helping your case. For me, it shows you are not here in good faith and that you absolutely cannot be trusted. GiantSnowman 12:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No, it's called people have eyes. Using LLMs this way is highly disrespectful and frankly disruptive. Boomerang block for WP:NOTHERE seems appropriate. Simonm223 (talk) 12:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

+1 to Phil Bridger. What struck me in the prior thread, over and over again, was how repeatedly evasive he was. "I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT..." "I never made any comment about LLMs in general." "I have no explanation." "Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully." "Which AI detectors are you using?" "The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively." And so on, and so on, and so on. Footballnerd2007 has been given chance after chance to answer plainly, without Wikilawyering or weasel-wording, and has instead stuck to the tactic of deflect, deflect, deflect. I don't know where Footballnerd2007 got the notion that the Fifth Amendment was the law of the land on Misplaced Pages, and that no boomerang can touch him as long as he admits to nothing. Let's just disabuse him of the notion. Ravenswing 12:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Retaliatory BS; this should be closed immediately. Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

CBAN proposal

• I propose a community ban for Footballnerd2007, appealable no sooner than six months from now (and then once per year thereafter), alongside a ban on using LLM's which would remain in effect until specifically contested. At the time of writing, Footballnerd2007 has only 142 edits, a significant number of which are right here at WP:ANI. They are clearly a massive WP:NOTHERE time sink. I urged Footballnerd2007 to withdraw this complaint and warned about WP:BOOMERANG and that clearly didn't land. I think it's time for everyone else to get back to regular editing. --Yamla (talk) 12:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  • Support, obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. GiantSnowman 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? Ravenswing 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. GiantSnowman 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I'll respond to this in depth later today. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I concede that I've been backed into a corner and now I need to do the right thing, stop with the defensive act and own up to my mistakes which I'll do in my statement later this afternoon. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I had my legal head on with the philosophy "defend until you can no more" - I now concede on reflection this is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages and that my actions were not the right way to go and for that I will take full responsibility in my statement. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    It's too late to withdraw now. You have to take responsibility for your behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  • (edit conflict)Support - on top of what's been posted on this thread, FN2007 has wiped their talk page by archiving without a link to the archive on the fresh talk page, without responding to Liz's advice. They also edited other people's comments to add things they didn't say when closing a RM discussion, and haven't responded when I pointed this out. These things alongside their LLM use (and subsequent wikilawyering "technically I only said I didn't use ChatGPT" responses), refusal to listen to good advice, and everything else in this topic, I think a community ban would be a good idea. BugGhost 🦗👻 13:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC) Update - striking support for cban, I think footballnerd's recent responses and CNC's offer of mentorship indicate that we may be able to avoid it. BugGhost 🦗👻 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? GiantSnowman 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I will go back and thank her for that. Because I had been advised that your actions could have violated WP policy and thought it would be a good way to deflect the blame, in heinsight it was absolutely the wrong course of action. I would like to draw a line under this whole sorry situation and move on with the reason that I joined once my statement has been published and the subsequent discussion has concluded. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    (another (edit conflict) To clarify, I don't think Footballnerd is doing anything malicious or deliberately trying to time-waste. I think they are a misguided new bold editor who unfortunately doesn't listen to advice and is stubborn to self-reflect. If this cban goes ahead I urge them to appeal in 6 months with a better understanding of how wikipedia works, with a more cautious editing style and more acceptance of community opinions. BugGhost 🦗👻 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I am not being malicious, there was only one motivation for my actions - wanting to help.

    My comments on this and the above thread have been ill judged.

    As for the ban, I'd like to ask that I be spared at this moment in time in view of my above comments and the concession statement that I will be posting when I return home. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... GiantSnowman 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Because I'm posting from my phone and I'm not at home. When I return to my PC later today I'll make the statement. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  • Support CBAN. Using a chatbot to generate discussion then denying it when called out is already deeply contemptuous. Turning around and filing a chatbot generated revenge report for people not believing your lies about not using a chatbot? Words fail. Folly Mox (talk) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. GiantSnowman 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. GiantSnowman 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. GiantSnowman 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I admit that I did, I just saw the line of "I didn't use ChatGPT" as an easy 'get out of jail card'. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

     Note: for Folly Mox, just to inform you there is a #MENTOR proposal that you may not have seen. I was about to send generic pings to !voters of this section, but it appears all other editors are aware of this proposal already (or voted afterwards at least). This isn't intended to influence your decision, only to provide you updated information. CNC (talk) 23:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support as this behavior is clearly WP:NOTHERE. Simonm223 (talk) 15:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support CBAN as this editor has caused a monumental waste of the volunteer time of other editors, which is our most precious commodity. This is an encyclopedia, not a robot debating society. Cullen328 (talk) 18:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support. First choice would be an indefinite block. Despite the user's sudden acts of contrition, I don't trust them. I don't see them as an asset to the project. As for their recent statement that some think is AI-generated, my guess is it's a mixture, maybe we should call it AI-assisted. However, I wouldn't support an indefinite block if it were just that. What preceded the complaint by GS and their conduct at ANI was egregiously disruptive.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose - I say give them some rope. There is good discussion going on below, and I don't think anything is gained by blocking an editor who does at times add value. We can always revisit this later - and presumably the action would then be quick and obvious. BTW, I thought we all used AI to some extent - certainly when I misspell words like "certainyl" I then accept the AI in chrome changing the spelling. Or even improving the grammar if I turn on those options. Also User:GiantSnowman's numerous draft articles in his userspace always confounds me. I've asked them before to write these articles in draft-space where there can be a collaborative effort, rather than their userspace where they won't let anyone else edit. Nfitz (talk) 00:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Haven't voted in this proposal yet, am abstaining for now per trying to avoid advocacy as potential mentor. The two points I will however question is: would a CBAN solve these issues or postpone them until a later date? Would a 1–2 month mentorship more likely bring about the results of reform or failure much sooner? If we want to talk about WP:WASTEOFTIME as we have do so, it might be worth considering the time wasted in not mentoring a newish editor into the folds of the encyclopedia. CNC (talk) 00:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

MENTOR proposal

Mentorship commitments to uphold by Footballnerd2007 for a suggested one–two month period. Mentor: CommunityNotesContributor.

1. Abide by all policies and guidelines and listen to advise given to you by other editors.
2. No page moves (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval from mentor.
3. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it.
4. No more dishonesty, being evasive, or using AI of any kind in discussions due to laziness.
5. Avoid commenting on all admin noticeboards (unless summoned). If there is a problem, seek advise from mentor.
6. Avoid reverting other editors (either manually, part or in full), unless obvious vandalism.

This goes a bit beyond original requirements, and the last two are effectively preventative measures to try and avoid problems arising. An editor involved exclusively on footy articles has limited to no need for involvement in admin noticeboards. CNC (talk) 17:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree to those principles and am grateful for the mentorship opportunity! Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. CNC (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. GiantSnowman 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. CNC (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No bad - let me rephrase if that helps. I am not opposed to mentoring in place of the current CBAN proposal. GiantSnowman 18:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

• Going to chime in here as someone involved in footy related articles. I've reviewed some of the editors contributions, and despite all the issues raised in this topic that are very problematic, the user has seemingly made good contributions to football related articles. I otherwise don't doubt that the user previously edited with an IP (I'm pretty sure which IP this is based on edit histories, but assuming good faith it's not part of this topic and not relevant either so won't bother referencing). I only state this to deflect from suggestions that this editor could be a sockpuppet, as I strongly don't believe to be the case, instead I suspect about 18 months of low-key editing experience up until now. It's therefore a great shame FN2007 went down this road, even if appears to have now retracted the original complaint. Hopefully they can take on board the requests to avoid controversial edits, especially at other user talkpages and such. I'd like to think this is a case of a user trying to run before they can walk, and if they now pace themselves it could work out in the long-term, but alas the damage has also already been done here it seems. Also as a personal suggestion to the editor, if you're here for football articles, then you should be aiming to stay well away from admin noticeboards as they will rarely ever concern you. Generally there should be relatively low controversy editing football articles, even if most remain contentious topics as BLP. So if football is your editing remit here, you're doing it very badly by ending up at a noticeboard, equally so by opening this topic, even with your good contributions. I am therefore reluctantly offering to act as a WP:MENTOR, if the user can commit to the general policy and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, in the hope of not losing a participant in the under edited area of women's football articles. CNC (talk) 14:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. CNC (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per WP:MENTOR, as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. Reader of Information (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  That's definitely OK with me. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Mainly just everyone else at this point it seems. CNC (talk) 14:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Should I ping? Reader of Information (talk) 14:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I gladly and humbly accept your mentorship offer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Just to be clear, this would be a WP:LASTCHANCE offer, nothing more than that. Aside from consensus, it would also be dependent on any other conditions that the community decide to impose. CNC (talk) 14:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Completely not related but wanting to chime in.

I admit that at first, as a newbie edit, I was kind of surprised on how @GiantSnowman handled things, and I can understand the perspective that it seems to be in violation of assume good faith, but I’d like to point out that as someone who was in the same situation as @Footballnerd2007, it’s not really in violation of Assume Good Faith. He just is very organized but tries his best to help others. Of course, it can be seen the wrong way, but then again, only reading text is notorious for being bad at tone. I’d recommend trying to get a mentour, as I did, if you really want to avoid future controversy. I’d recommend FootballNerd to take up CNC’s mentorship offer. Reader of Information (talk) 14:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Furthermore, no one is perfect. Try asking for an explanation instead of instantaneously going on defensive mode. That will always help. Be humble. Reader of Information (talk) 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I have taken up the mentorship offer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. GiantSnowman 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed, @Reader of Information maybe hold off on pings for now. CNC (talk) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Alright, sounds good. Reader of Information (talk) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Per #Response from Footballnerd2007 I think pings are appropriate now. CNC (talk) 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. CNC (talk) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm now home and will start drafting after lunch. I'll send it you before posting it here. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I see a list of conditions but not an explicit proposal for mentoring. Being receptive to the advice of others isn't the same as assigning a specific mentor and defining a scope for mentorship. Can the proposal be clarified, or else renamed? isaacl (talk) 18:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed Involuntary mentorship. CNC (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for your clarifying edit. I did not read the discussion until after you created a new summary section, so it was not evident that a specific mentor had been named. isaacl (talk) 02:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Response from Footballnerd2007

Good Afternoon all,

Can I start by making something unequivocally clear: my behaviour over the past 24 hours has been unacceptable and has resembled that of a lawyer acting in court, trying to defend my actions in an overly strategic way. This course of action was wrong, and I apologise for it.

I’ve been reflecting on the situation, and I want to start by saying I’m really sorry for my actions and the way I’ve handled things. I know I messed up, and I feel it's important to acknowledge that. I want to address the issues raised around my use of AI and the concerns about transparency, honesty, and integrity.

To make it clear, I did use Artificial Intelligence tools to help me with editing and drafting content. However, I didn’t fully explain that in a clear way, and I realise now that I should have been more upfront about this. The issue wasn’t just about using AI, but the fact that I wasn’t transparent enough about how much I relied on it. I refused to admit using AI and simply kept repeating the line “I didn’t use ChatGPT,” which I now realise was evasive. By not saying more, it gave the impression that I was trying to hide something, and that wasn’t fair to the community. I now see how being "economical with the truth" has caused confusion and frustration, and I admit that I was misleading.

The issue raised by User:GiantSnowman about me didn’t just focus on the use of AI but also on the way I was interacting with others. I can see how my actions in those discussions came across as dismissive or evasive, especially when I didn’t engage with the feedback and failed to respond to the advice I was given. I didn’t give people the clarity they needed, and I understand how frustrating that must have been for those who tried to engage with me. I admit I attempted to “give them the run around.” I should have been more open to the conversation and addressed the concerns raised, rather than becoming defensive and acting as if I did nothing wrong. This is not an attempt to justify it, but I want to admit that the reason I used AI was mainly due to laziness and an attempt to sound more knowledgeable in order to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy.

I also want to address how I behaved today. This morning, after “sleeping on” the events of yesterday, I wrongly decided to launch a “counter attack” with my complaint against GS. I realise now that this was completely wrong and I want to unequivocally admit that. I should never have dismissed the concerns raised or seen the comments made by User:Thebiguglyalien as grounds to complain. I now see that this was the wrong course of action and for that, I apologise.

I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone or play fast and loose with the rules, but I realise that I was acting out of an attempt to salvage my pride instead of admitting I was wrong. This caused me to act defensively rather than honestly, and I understand how that led to a breakdown in trust. I take full responsibility for that. I never meant to cause confusion or frustration, but I can see how I did. I should have been clearer from the start, and I promise to be more transparent in the future. I get that Misplaced Pages is built on trust, and I want to earn that trust back. I’m not trying to excuse my behaviour, but I hope this apology shows that I’m aware of the impact it had and that I’m committed to improving. I pledge that I won’t use AI for WP editing in the future. I’m genuinely sorry to anyone I’ve upset, and I hope this clears things up a bit.

Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 16:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for this. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

You're welcome, I'd really like to put this situation behind us and move on. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, if that was written without AI tools (GPTzero still says it was 100% written by AI, but it looks a lot more "human" to me than your previous efforts) then you can at least write without them. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

To be fair, @Phil Bridger, I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... Nfitz (talk) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

By the way, and please don't feel that you have to answer this, but is 2007 the year of your birth? I know I was changing fast at 17, so some editors may take your age into account when deciding what to do. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from Autism Spectrum Disorder. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate the maturity in acknowledging your errors. I’d like to clarify this as it’s something I avoided mentioning.

The use of AI is not prohibited but heavily frowned upon. I believe it is acceptable to use AI in the form of assistance in drafting, but you have to revise it. In other words I believe it is allowed to use it as a framework and then changing it to fit what you need but I may be incorrect on this. Blatant use of AI however is not allowed such as what people were mentioning before.

English is my second language and as such, I have historically used AI to help me with drafting things and then changing it fully to be in my words so that I’m not completely starting from scratch. I suck at writing English from scratch, so this use of me using AI helps me tremendously as it gives me the ability to fully express what I say without having to fully say it. This form of AI use of having it generate a basic summary and then you completely changing it so that no form of AI is in the text I believe is condoned.

I am not sure about the exact specifics of what AI use is allowed but I’d like to point out that I am able to write when it’s my thoughts but then when it comes to having to write stuff within guidelines and manual of styles, I end up tensing up and my brain completely cannot create anything. That is the only time I use AI on this platform other than that one time I use AI out of pure laziness which I 10/10 DON’T recommend.

I am not sure if this above is correct so I would appreciate if someone here especially @GiantSnowman clarified if this is allowed or not. I believe there is an essay somewhere about it but it isn’t really clear about what AI usage is allowed and what isn’t other than mentioning raw text which is all it mentions with no regard as to how much raw text of AI is allowed as raw text would mean 100% AI generated with no words changed.

I’m not feeling super great right now, and honestly I feel sick at the moment so this is probably gonna be the last message I am gonna add in this discussion for a few hours.

Cheers,

Reader of Information (talk) 19:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

You are looking for WP:LLM. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. GiantSnowman 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Courtesy pings to increase discussion as the following pings all commented in the sections prior.

@Nfitz

@Phil Bridger

@GiantSnowman

@Footballnerd2007

@Black Kite:

@Bugghost:

@Isaacl:

@CommunityNotesContributor:

@Randy Kryn:

@Bbb23:

@Cullen328:

@Simonm223:

@Folly Mox:

@Bgsu98:

@Yamla:

Sorry for the delay CNC.

Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Please don't send mass ping notifications to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. isaacl (talk) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Yes, of course, a very good statement of contrition and hope for future editing (hopefully not all AI). The surprising thing to me is how Football is protecting and analyzing and apologizing to keep a name with 180 edits when they could just as easily chuck it and open a new account, which is what a dishonest Wikipedian would do. Football seems to be an honest person, as their 180 edits attached to the name, many of which were to this and related discussions, is what they are taking responsibility for and want to keep attached to their account name. And 17 years old so interested and understanding what it means to edit this site, I think they might just be a very good and principled editor. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

User:49.206.48.151

Blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Please keep User:49.206.48.151 off my talk page . See also . --Wrongfilter (talk) 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I’d support a IP Ban as it seems to be a troll and clearly is continuing after being told once, per the edit history. Reader of Information (talk) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I have given them a warning - if they continue, let me know. In future you should try and talk to them before coming to ANI. GiantSnowman 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

They continued . Lavalizard101 (talk) 15:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Blocked, thanks. GiantSnowman 15:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2403:580E:EB64:0::/64: disruptive changes to UK nationalities

Blocktannia rules the page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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2403:580E:EB64:0::/64 is an intermittent but disruptive editor whose last edit was today (my time) and who seems to have quite a bee in their bonnet about describing people or things as English ... they very much prefer them to be described as British. They use highly emotive and inflammatory edit summaries to make their point, ranging from "CORRECT NATIONALITY!!! BRITISH!!" to "GET THE FCKING NATIONALITY RIGHT MERKINS!!! ENGLAND IS NOT A COUNTRY SINCE 1707 ACT OF UNION FFS!!! WICKEDPEDIA". They have been warned in September 2024 and twice in December 2024. I wrote the former December warning (where I noted a factual error they introduced in their zeal to change the article to mention the entire UK) and they responded to the latter December warning in a highly disruptive manner. I think some sort of block is in order, at the very least. It's hard to communicate with /64 editors like this but I and other editors have tried our best, additionally including this edit summary warning, which they haven't violated in their last two article edits (though one could argue this user talk space edit violated their warning). Graham87 (talk) 15:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• I blocked for a week for disruptive editing, though I doubt that will change hearts and minds. Drmies (talk) 16:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New Family Family Rises Again

Blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:31, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• New Family Family Rises Again (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Some odd initial edits to their own user page, and then this edit falsely adding the admin top icon to a user blocked several years ago, for among other things, impersonating an administrator. Probably a sock, but even if not, something is amiss. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 16:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't even initially realize those odd initial edits were back in 2020, around the time when said other user was blocked. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 16:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

That this was the user's first edit in 5 years is definitely strange. I reverted their latest one. Hellbus (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I have blocked New Family Family Rises Again as not here to build an encyclopedia. We do not need trolls who lie, even if their editing is infrequent. Cullen328 (talk) 19:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Category:

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