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Latest revision as of 15:25, 7 January 2025

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on August 7, 2004, August 7, 2011, August 7, 2012, August 7, 2013, August 7, 2014, August 7, 2015, and August 7, 2016.

This  level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Africa: Ivory Coast Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Africa on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AfricaWikipedia:WikiProject AfricaTemplate:WikiProject AfricaAfrica Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Ivory Coast (assessed as Top-importance). This article was created or improved during the "African 10,000 Challenge", which started in 1 September 2016 and is still continuing. You can help! Countries This article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of countries on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CountriesWikipedia:WikiProject CountriesTemplate:WikiProject Countriescountry WikiProject Countries to-do list: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : Check out the article alerts; see if anything catches your fancy. Cleanup : clean-up listing for Countries Stubs : de-stub articles in Category:Stubs by region. Other : add {{WPCountries}} to talk pages of related articles, and assess.

Please read the archive and discussion below before making a page move proposal.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination. Move logs: Ivory Coast Côte d'Ivoire Discussions: RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, No consensus, 11 November 2005, discussion RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, No consensus, 8 January 2007, discussion RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, No consensus, 21 June 2010, discussion RFC, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, No consensus, 11 July 2010, discussion RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, No consensus, 19 June 2011, discussion RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, Moved, 12 June 2012, discussion MVR, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, No consensus, 10 July 2012, discussion RM, Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire, Not moved, 26 January 2022, discussion RM, Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire, Speedy close, 26 February 2022, discussion RM, Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire, Moved, 27 June 2024, discussion MRV, Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire, Overturned to no consensus, 12 July 2024, discussion

Archives

Index Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8

This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present.

Requested move 27 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED as proposed. Opposition to the move fell into basically three camps.

1. "Ivory Coast is more common in English!" In the face of convincing ngram evidence for Cote D'Ivoire, absolutely no evidence whatsoever was cited for this claim. It was summarily discarded, then.

2. "Ivory Coast is the English name!" Users such as Ajax were correct in saying things like "Misplaced Pages routinely uses the most common English name despite the wishes of those in power." However, as referenced above, the only evidence we have shows that Cote d'Ivoire is the most common name for the country in English. The first sentence of WP:UE reads: "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources". Ajax and others' arguments, therefore, aren't so much wrong as they are tautological. If Ivory Coast is the English name, it should be the title, but that's not something you can just assume to be true! That's the whole thing we're discussing!

3. "Cote d'Ivoire is hard to type!" As noted below, redirects exist.

All in all, pretty cut-and-dried. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 06:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The above closure was overturned to no consensus at Misplaced Pages:Move review/Log/2024 July. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire – It has overtaken Ivory Coast per ngrams () and should be used per WP:Common name. This is also the official name of the country, and the government has requested it is used over Ivory Coast , although that is of little value per WP:Official name.Alexanderkowal (talk) 22:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose A quick search of both terms shows me that Ivory Coast is more common among highly reputable English language media companies. Killuminator (talk) 13:43, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The convention is to use ngrams, and it shows Côte d’Ivoire has overtaken Ivory Coast in English media Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The convention is also to use English. We don't call Japan Nippon or Nihon. Killuminator (talk) 13:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

We would if Ngrams showed English media used Nippon more often than Japan, but they don’t Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

If the country is called "Côte d'Ivoire" in English, then it's English...--Ortizesp (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

It is not... ngrams are not the only yardstick whether it's current NY Times, AP News, Financial Times, ESPN, Reuters News, The Guardian, even the Dept of Agriculture. Both terms get used formally but colloquially it's Ivory Coast. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:47, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Ngrams is how we measure commonality, individual surveys are advised against per WP:Common name. Respectfully, you're denying clear evidence and convention. Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Please see Article title#Foreign names and anglicization, The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively). Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

It is one of the ways, but there are many problems with it. It is certainly not clear evidence. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I disagree Alexanderkowal (talk) 09:58, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Some that use Cote d'Ivoire:

• Britannica
• UN
• Ground News
• The Independent
• Amnesty International
• Gov.uk
• World Bank
• CIA Factbook
• IMF
• Human Rights Watch

Kowal2701 (talk) 18:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

US gov also uses Cote d'Ivoire , just citing the department of agriculture is misleading Kowal2701 (talk) 19:06, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

And some that use the English translation of Ivory Coast

• Los Angeles Times
• New York Times
• Aljazeera
• San Diego Tribune
• Reuters news
• Air France
• CNN
• NBC
• Trip Advisor
• Bloomberg
• World Wide Chocolate
• AP News
• Phys.org
• BBC uses both terms BBC, and BBC

There is no shortage of Ivory Coast users. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:28, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

And I’m not saying Ivory Coast isn’t used. This is about what is used predominantly per WP: Article title#Foreign names and anglicization Kowal2701 (talk) 08:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

And I'm not saying that French Cote d'Ivoire isn't used, but the translation of English Ivory Coast is used more. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide evidence for that? Kowal2701 (talk) 09:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I did above... did you not see them? Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, I don’t think that makes a strong case considering I matched it with equally notable sources Kowal2701 (talk) 09:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME in the English speaking world, Ivory Coast is still the name of choice. I don't see that anything has really changed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:20, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Per ngrams Côte d'Ivoire is used more often in english media Alexanderkowal (talk) 00:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Not media.... books! Ngram books. There is so much more than what ngrams show. Newspapers and universities and heaps of other items show other leanings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. The official name "Republic of Côte d'Ivoire, Côte d'Ivoire for short" is used more than Ivory Coast, as well as the government's preference to use the former than the latter. WP:COMMON would support the official name instead of the original per Ngrams. --_ZZ'S 20:17, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support (strongly) per reasons listed by nominator, etc. Paintspot Infez (talk) 01:09, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support per ngrams results of Alexanderkowal. Here's the ratio of the two names — Côte d'Ivoire, with or without diacritics, is more common than Ivory Coast name since approximately 2004. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Unnecessarily complicated French name for an English-language Misplaced Pages, where Ivory Coast is perfectly "COMMON". Geschichte (talk) 10:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  Côte d’Ivoire is used more commonly in English media therefore it is English, just like coup d’etat and cafe are English Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:05, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  No it is not. ngrams never tell the whole story. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  ? I'm really struggling to understand your opposition. Ngrams is what is conventionally used. What is special about this particular case that means we should avoid convention, and can you please refer to policy where possible? Kowal2701 (talk) 18:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  And I'm struggling on where the heck you came up with Wikpedia uses google ngrams and nothing else. That has never been convention at Misplaced Pages. It is one tool we use. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:18, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Can you give another tool we use that carries similar weight? We’ve provided a plethora of sources that use one or the other, which hasn’t really made a case for either. In doubt, ngrams shifts the scale towards Côte d’Ivoire, provided the user issues are satisfied Kowal2701 (talk) 09:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  My impression is that ngrams holds decisive weight when assessing commonality Kowal2701 (talk) 09:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Then your impression is wrong. It holds weight, like many sources do. But a book search is not decisive. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree because I’ve often seen ngrams used as the only arbitrator for commonality, and I don’t think us listing sources one for one makes a strong case for either, or is a good use of time Kowal2701 (talk) 09:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  And I've often seen ngrams ripped to shreds here, and I've been here a long time. But I agree we are stuck in a loop where we have to agree to disagree. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:58, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:ENGLISHTITLE. Ivory Coast is English and Côte d’Ivoire is French, no matter how many times the French name is used in English-language publications. Our policy prefers English for article titles. It is irrelevant that governments prefer the use of the French-speaking country's French name (see also WP:OFFICIALNAME). It is of course important that Côte d’Ivoire appear prominently in the lead as well as being a redirect. Station1 (talk) 21:33, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  The policies you've cited contradict your position. From WP:ENGLISHTITLE The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively).

  Cote d'Ivoire predominates in English-language reliable sources therefore it should be used. I've shown evidence it does predominate using convention, and nobody's shown evidence it doesn't. WP:Official name says nothing to contradict this move. Kowal2701 (talk) 21:40, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  You are citing WP:UE, not WP:ENGLISHTITLE, which starts two paragraphs further up and clearly states as its first sentence "On the English Misplaced Pages, article titles are written using the English language." Your quote from WP:UE is just getting into details about spelling and anglicization of proper names like Kierkegaard's. Both "ivory" and "coast" are common English words, however, with only one spelling in English. Whether or not Cote d'Ivoire predominates or is "official" is irrelevant because it is clearly French. Station1 (talk) 22:46, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  This comes from a misunderstanding of how language works. If a word, regardless of its origin, is used predominantly in English then it is English. Coup d’etat and cafe are English words regardless of their origin. Kowal2701 (talk) 08:45, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  ^ as the policy says Kowal2701 (talk) 08:53, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  That is incorrect. Cafe, in the sense of a small restaurant, is indeed an English word of French origin. The French word café is a different word that translates as "coffee". Coup d'état has no English equivalent ("stroke of state" is never used). Côte d'Ivoire, on the other hand, is simply French for Ivory Coast. Station1 (talk) 12:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Lots of loanwords have translations in English, it isn't incorrect, this is how language works. Admittedly there are few examples I can recall of a foreign term overwhelming its English translation in usage but I'm sure there have been many. There are certainly lots of English translations overwhelming German words in German. Kowal2701 (talk) 12:16, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Neither of us are experts in language, we should wait for someone with a better understanding Kowal2701 (talk) 12:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Do you assume that just because you disagree with me? It is impossible to tell who is or is not an "expert" on WP, so appeals to authority, usually a bad idea, are especially worthless on WP, where every editor is anonymous and every argument must stand purely on its own merits. Station1 (talk) 18:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  And I don't think either of our arguments stand on their own merit. I'm just asking someone with a better understanding that could enlighten us, obviously we can still scrutinise, but there's considerable nuance to this that I don't think either of us grasp Kowal2701 (talk) 18:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  You might very well be right, but it would contradict what I've heard people say. I'm not sure how to research this either Kowal2701 (talk) 18:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  I've asked at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Languages#Linguistics of the use of Cote d'Ivoire Kowal2701 (talk) 12:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  It absolutely is correct. It's part of English because English-speakers use it when speaking English. They might also use "Ivory Coast" sometimes, but that doesn't mean "Cote d'Ivoire" is not English either. Theknightwho (talk) 22:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per what will yield the best results for research for our readers and what English language readers can type into a keyboard.Moxy🍁 21:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not knowledgeable about this side of things, butsurely if Ivory Coast is put as an alternative name it still comes up to the same degree? At the moment, if I search Cote d'Ivoire via google, the article for Ivory Coast comes up first, wouldn't it be the same the other way around? I think having Ivory Coast and Cote d'Ivoire as redirects solves this issue. Lots of wikipedia articles have accents and diacritics Kowal2701 (talk) 21:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  And with some titles, like Germany/Deutchland, Japan/Nippon, they are fully different names. Ivory Coast is the English translation of Côte d'Ivoire... they mean the same thing but one is English and one is French. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  Again this comes from a misunderstanding of how English works. If a word, regardless of its origin, is used predominantly in English, then it is english Kowal2701 (talk) 08:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support I think the shift has tipped to using Côte d'Ivoire. I note in particular that the Chicago Manual of Style says look for country names to the CIA World Fact Book (Côte d'Ivoire), Britannica (Côte d'Ivoire), U.S. Board on Geographic Names which in turn points to the Geographic Names Server (Côte d'Ivoire). In the UK, the permanent committee on geographic names states "Ivory Coast is the usual country name in the English language and can be used for internal HMG and UK domestic purposes. Côte d’Ivoire should be used for all correspondence and relations with the country itself. Côte d’Ivoire should also be used in correspondence with international organizations, such as the United Nations" (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65006d9557e884000de12980/Ivory_Coast_factfile.pdf). Note the 'can' for domestic use which implies author's choice but 'should' for international use which means use Côte d'Ivoire in such cases. Australian government seems to use Côte d'Ivoire except in old documents though in at least one place has "Côte d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast)". India seems to use "Cote d'Ivoire ". A search on google scholar since 2020 seems to show 22,100 for "Côte d’Ivoire" and 17,400 for "Ivory Coast" (524 had both, admittedly these numbers are estimates but it does seem to show a preference now for "Côte d’Ivoire"). :Erp (talk) 23:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  All governments will use Côte d'Ivoire, as will many official bodies, because it is the official name. I am not sure how a source saying "Ivory Coast is the usual country name in the English language" can support the move, and I am surprised the PCGN uses "Ivory Coast". CMD (talk) 01:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  My guess is that the PCGN is dealing with some very conservative people in the government and are probably waiting for them to retire (or lose the election). I would say scholarly works also have moved to Côte d'Ivoire. I wanted to see what K-12 schools might be using so went to look at the National Geographic "World for Kids Map" which uses Côte d'Ivoire as does Britannica Kids Atlas https://kids.britannica.com/kids/browse/atlas Erp (talk) 02:20, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Here's the thing, the CIA and US govt also use "Burma" instead of Myanmar. They have to take official positions when dealing with these countries and the politics involved. Yet the article is at Myanmar, not Burma. We don't always go by the CIA factbook... sometimes yes and sometimes no. PCGN uses "Myanmar (Burma)", but again we don't follow that either. We use what is commonly used in English. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Myanmar is the official name, not Burma. _ZZ'S 04:11, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  We don't go by official names, we don't go by CIA names, we don't go by PCGN names, and never have. That's what I'm saying. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  You’re right, we go by what ngrams says, and it says Côte d’Ivoire is predominantly used. What are you suggesting we go by? Kowal2701 (talk) 08:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  We absolutely do not! Ngrams have been shown time and time again to be deceptive. Where in the world would you get that that's all we go by? They are one set of tools we use. Google ngrams only do books... not newspapers, not websites, not university teachings, not your average joe on the street, not magazines, not blogs, not tv news, not radio, not a lot of things. It is useful but it's only one thing to look at. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  That contradicts my firm impression. Can you give some of the other tools used that carry similar weight? Kowal2701 (talk) 09:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  If the one dimensional "book" ngrams of google is all we went by this place would look very different. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:35, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Please can you answer the question Kowal2701 (talk) 09:37, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Why do you think I listed a whole heap of sources that tell you otherwise? For my health? We use sources and consensus here... ngram books are one source we use but there are hundreds of other sources. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  And I listed some sources that use Côte d’Ivoire, I don’t that makes a strong case for either side Kowal2701 (talk) 09:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  You may be right that sources could be split on the subject. There could be an endless parade of sources on both sides. That would be a reason to keep it where it is. And your posting also said it's the official name of the country, and the government has requested it be used over Ivory Coast. You know how much weight that carries here?... zero. Absolutely nothing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:55, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  It was more to give reasoning for the change in use. WP:Official name#Valid use of official names goes by commonality Kowal2701 (talk) 10:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support per ngrams results, which shows that Côte d'Ivoire has become the most common name in English usage over the past decade.

Beyond usage in books, it's also the name used by Google Maps, Britannica and other common references, so readers would expect to see it likewise listed here under that name.

I'd also point out that WP:NCGN#Use_English states that the local name should be used if there is no widely accepted common name in English, so even if we agree that English usage is split, clearly Ivory Coast is not the widely accepted name and so we should defer to the local name. TDL (talk) 23:49, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose the use of a colonial-era name that is not the most common English-language name for the country. From South Korea to East Timor and Brunei to Vietnam, Misplaced Pages routinely uses the most common English name despite the wishes of those in power. A perusal of the actual Ngram results (not just the numbers) shows a plethora of UN documents which necessarily follow the diktat of Ivorian authorities. Misplaced Pages is not a diplomatic manual, but a general encyclopedia, and as such should adhere to the principle of least astonishment and use the common, English name. —  AjaxSmack  06:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

  Both names are colonial era Kowal2701 (talk) 08:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Use English says:

When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be identical in form to the local name (as with Paris or Berlin), but in many cases it will differ (Germany rather than Deutschland, Rome rather than Roma, Hanover rather than Hannover, Meissen rather than Meißen). If a native name is more often used in English sources than a corresponding traditional English name, then use the native name. Two examples are Livorno and Regensburg, which are now known more widely under their native names than under the older English names "Leghorn" and "Ratisbon". Kowal2701 (talk) 17:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: the ngram Kowal2701 posted is limited to books. Other media do not show the same pattern. My own news search returned a lot of official-type sources using the French form, but the general news agencies (AP, Reuters) using the English form. In general, news stories targeted at the general public use Ivory Coast. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  Other encyclopedias like Britannica, New World Encyclopedia, CIA Factbook, encyclopedia.com, Oxford Research Encyclopedia etc. all use Cote d'Ivoire Kowal2701 (talk) 13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  You know, you COULD just let each person make their comment and not go badgering everyone. Let the positions be stated and then start a new section where you can argue all your points instead of dumping them all over everything. This would keep points from being discussed in multiple places. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  Good point, that's what I should've done, my bad Kowal2701 (talk) 13:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, for now Government agencies prefer 'Côte d'Ivoire', but English publications targeted to the general English public prefer 'Ivory Coast'. This English Misplaced Pages article is targeted to the general English public, so should use what the general English public is most likely to search for. I make a note that the use of 'Côte d'Ivoire' is growing, but is not used enough in reliable English sources (targeted to the general reader) to establish it as the common name. Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball, but I can see this discussion being reopened as the usage of the proposed title increases. Svampesky (talk) 13:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
• For future RM discussions, nom should heed WP:GOOGLELIMITS, which notes that Google does not index all sources or even a representative sample, and WP:DPT, specifically: Tools that may help to support the determination of a primary topic in a discussion (but are not considered absolute determining factors, due to unreliability, potential bias, and other reasons) include Usage in English reliable sources demonstrated with Google Ngram viewer (underline mine, italics original). The sloppiness of in the opening of this RM after so many previous ones severely disappints me. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 05:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, I wasn’t aware of that policy. I’ve just seen ngrams used as a determiner so wrongly assumed that would be the case be here Kowal2701 (talk) 06:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

  Is there a place that policy is collated into a sort of book with chapters? I only become aware of it after making a mistake and someone cites it Kowal2701 (talk) 07:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment on ngrams: In this case, ngrams results are significantly affected by OCR errors and other quirks, as Dohn joe noted at the 2012 RM. See ngrams including variations for l (lowercase L) and i, as well as ô and o, and space or no space in between d'. In particular, many were incorrectly transcribed as "lvoire" with a lowercase L; however, that mistake largely stops showing up after around 2010. The interpretation is debatable. I would say that Côte d'Ivoire probably gained in prevalence at an even earlier time than other commenters above believed, but also the pre-2010 portion of the ngrams results are probably less reliable than the more recent portion. Adumbrativus (talk) 05:19, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Conducting the same search conducted in the 2012 RM suggests that the common name remains "Ivory Coast". BilledMammal (talk) 18:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support as per Google NGrams, as pointed out. Theknightwho (talk) 21:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support per reasonably common usage above, and given that "Ivory Coast" as a name is potentially somewhat ambiguous and generic. BD2412 T 00:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Post-move review

• @Red Slash: You have to be frigging kidding me... there is no consensus to change this at all! ngram has all sorts of issues as was pointed out, and heaps was shown how common Ivory Coast is. I listed many and could have filled the talk page with more. The only thing on the side of Côte d'Ivoire was the ngram on books which is limited as pointed out in the discussion and prior discussions. This is one of the worst closes I've ever see. I can see it closing as Ivory Coast or even no consensus... but I'm actually shocked at this close. And it was still quite active with three people giving answers just today. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this is a candidate for review. Killuminator (talk) 08:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I was just in a review on a different topic that I'm still amazed at, so sorry if I'm not optimistic in the review process here anymore. As long as a closer is sincere, reviews are stomped on regardless of poor closings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this should be reopened, although I can see why they came to that decision Kowal2701 (talk) 08:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Tbh I would understand if the result is no consensus, regardless I’ve conducted myself very poorly and don’t really deserve it tbh Kowal2701 (talk) 10:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@Kowal2701: it's all a learning curve, and you conducted the discussion in good faith, which is the most important thing. As noted, in future you should avoid trying to reply to every single comment made, as that is usually regarded as WP:BLUDGEONing and/or "badgering" of those with whom you don't agree. One or two replies is fine, but otherwise everyone is entitled to their opinion. Anyway, you'll know for next time! Personally I think the above discussion should have been closed as "no consensus" - the !vote count was roughly equal, and good points were made on both sides - particularly given that the WP:COMMONNAME situation doesn't seem clear cut. The slight lead enjoyed by Côte d'Ivoire in book sources is offset by evidence of Ivory Coast usage in media sources. It's a lot closer than it was 10–15 years ago though and, assuming the move isn't made now, I can definitely foresee it being made a few years from now.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, no consensus might be the best decision, with a future turning point possibly being use by mainstream media Kowal2701 (talk) 11:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that no consensus is the best option. The thing is, Misplaced Pages uses common name over official name. Yes, the government asks (almost) every country to only be called by its endonym, but media outlets still refer to this by its exonym. Think about why Kiev remained that way until 2020 even though it may have been the official name since at least 1995. But for this, its originally been known (in Misplaced Pages) by its French name, but has since renamed to its English name in July 2012.

Maybe its time to open a move review which is why this talk should have taken place at User talk:Red Slash instead of here. JuniperChill (talk) 15:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I wrote quite a lot about why there's a consensus to move. What did you disagree with? Only one side actually presented evidence, and it honestly was quite overwhelming. Red Slash 06:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I should clarify--one user did provide a list of several organizations that use Ivory Coast. However, that's literally what we have aggregators like ngrams for: so that instead of various people saying things like "look, I found a site that says X" and another person being like "hey I found a site that says Y", we can aggregate ALL of them together and see which one is more common. Obviously you can find some sources for either name, but the overall most common name was clearly proven to be the one that I can't type on my keyboard. Red Slash 06:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Overwhelming???? And when is 14 several? ngrams are only one small aspect. You seem to be taking them as some sort of cure-all, and that has never been the case. And that was pointed out here multiple times. ngrams are only books that googles uses. ngram usage has been used in past discussions but their limitations were outweighed by so many other sources still using Ivory Coast. I had no idea that a closer would actually take that as the only evidence to switch titles. Sorry but it's unsettling to say the least. It takes no press, no tv, no newsprint, no universities, no radio, etc. into account. Sure we use it as one source but the counter arguments here were even more powerful and out-numbering. Plus 3 people had just entered their reponses the day you closed, so still very active to boot. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:39, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Side note - Google translates/converts the title to English...thus for many nothing has changed. Moxy🍁 13:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

LOL... so those who need it translated to English can still see it as the English name of Ivory Coast. Otherwise we get to read it in French. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click) "Côte d'Ivoire" significantly outperforms "Ivory Coast" on Google Trends as well: , and it still outperforms if you restrict it to any English-speaking country, too. Theknightwho (talk) 19:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

The problem is it is limited by what google stores. And In United States and United Kingdom (two huge English speaking nations) it's pretty much flat. But ngrams are not the determining factor in these discussions. Most of those in favor pretty much rest on saying "because of ngrams." Do you realize the change of wikipedia if we based everything on ngrams only? There are heaps of Misplaced Pages articles that have 100% to 0% in English ngrams yet the article gained consensus for the 0%. ngrams are one aspect of gaining consensus, but not the only aspect. People also search for terms they have no idea about (which is what Google Trends is)... it could be "what the heck is a Côte d'Ivoire" and when they search it comes up Ivory Coast and they go "Oh it's the same as Ivory Coast." Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click) I'm not sure why you've limited it to news. If you change it to "all categories" you can see that "Côte d'Ivoire" is consistently in the lead (), and it's more pronounced in the US ().

This isn't NGrams, either - it's Google Trends, which is based on what people search for on Google; a completely different metric, which means that we now have two quite persuasive pieces of evidence that Côte d'Ivoire is in the lead, and dismissing it on the basis that people are probably Googling one term more because they don't know what it is seems very naive. Theknightwho (talk) 20:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

But we know from Misplaced Pages:Search engine test it is never as straight forward as that. People search for items they know nothing about. They know Ivory Coast so don't search for it. Of course they search for Côte d'Ivoire since they haven't a clue if it's a dessert or a country. Do you think people search for terms they know? We have so many articles at places where the ngrams are non-existent. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

You are comparing the search term Ivory Coast to the topic Cote d'Ivoire. Apples to oranges. When you make both of themsearch terms, Ivory Coast leads by quite a bit. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=Ivory%20Coast,C%C3%B4te%20d%27Ivoire&hl=en-GB

In fact, if you look at the country by country breakdowns for the last 5 years, the only places where Cote d'Ivoire leads are 1) French speaking countries and 2) Italy. Ivory Coast reachs 90%+ in all major English speaking countries (US, UK, Ireland, AUS, NZ, even South Africa and India) except Canada.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

• I did not participate in this RM, but the close most certainly needs to be overturned to no consensus. English Misplaced Pages is consensus-based and main title headers of major entries, such as country names, should have overwhelming consensus and should be overwhelmingly used in media, as in the case of Ukrainian city names Kyiv and Odesa, formerly known in English by transliterations of their Russian names Kiev and Odessa. The Ivory Coast / Côte d'Ivoire naming is analogous to another long-running country naming dispute — Turkey / Türkiye. The expected overwhelming consensus in favor of renaming is missing in both cases — here, there were 17 votes, with nine votes opposed to the change and eight votes in favor of using "Côte d'Ivoire". Clearly, no consensus. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  I agree but bear in mind per WP:DETCON consensus is ascertained by the quality of arguments given, not saying mine made were better Kowal2701 (talk) 19:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I opened a formal move review at Misplaced Pages:Move review/Log/2024 July. These things rarely seem to go anywhere but it is the next step in the process. Even involved editors can comment on whether the close was proper or not. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation again

Since we seem to keep having this problem: just like the word résumé is pronounced differently in French. American English, and British English, so is Cote d'Ivoire. And we need to show that in the article. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:06, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Résumé is an established word in English. Just like Ivory Coast. Côte and Ivoire are both French words.

Nonetheless, mon ami, let's compromise. What dost thou think of my last edit summary? Rolando 1208 (talk) 10:50, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

We are providing a pronunciation of Côte d'Ivoire as an English name, treated as English words by English-language sources. The fact that these words derive from French does not mean that they are pronounced exactly as French. That's just not how language works.

Regarding your change, I note that the words "coat" and "caught" are pronounced quite differently in most if not all dialects of English. You can't say it's pronounced "caught" when the source says it's pronounced "coat". Kahastok talk 15:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

But caught is a better approximation for Côte... Rolando 1208 (talk) 19:18, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

It wouldn't even be the same as K is aspirated . And the R is obviously different.

Please self revert. I'm really trying here. Compromising and everything. I even used open O because regular O doesn't exist in English as a monophthong. Rolando 1208 (talk) 19:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Why would someone self-revert the longstanding, correct, and sourced English pronunciation? To be honest most people I run across simply pronounce it coat-di-vore, but man in the street isn't the same kind of source as the Cambridge dictionary (or Websters). Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be trying to show English speakers how it should be pronounced to sound French. But that isn't what this is for. The provided French pronunciation already does that. What we need, and what was there before, is a record of how English speakers actually say it. It doesn't matter if this is "wrong" for French. It is right for English.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 23:31, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

The "coat" pronunciation that those dictionaries show is not universal. Some Anglos do say it with ɔ:

You're trying to marginalise the ɔ: pronunciation, that's not right. 178.120.4.30 (talk) 08:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Rolando 1208 I know this is you. Please stop. Theknightwho (talk) 02:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Baseless accusation. I have replied to you on my talk page. Rolando 1208 (talk) 07:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

It's not a baseless accusation at all - that same IP range has been removing pronunciations with exactly the same reasoning and edit summaries that you've been making with this account, and has been making the precise same changes that you repeatedly tried to reinstate without any consensus. It is clearly you, and you've been edit-warring on this very talk page over the same threads on your account as well. It's a completely ridiculous situation, and trying to deceive the rest of us is just embarrassing. Theknightwho (talk) 10:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Aren't you a lawyer? Don't you know about presumption of innocence? I already gave you my reasoning as to why I restored that particular IP's edits. You don't give sources for your IPA edits. As an act of good faith, I'm gonna wait a few weeks, let you add the sources as I know this takes time. If you can't find sources for some of them, you can self revert. I know you'll do the right thing, I've seen your other edits. Rolando 1208 (talk) 11:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

For full transparency, this was confirmed. Theknightwho (talk) 05:21, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Even after getting me blocked, you can't let it go, can you? Why do you want to expose my IP address so badly? As long as I don't use it to game the system, what's the problem? But no, for you, me getting blocked is not enough. You just have to expose my IP range. This is harassment. Rolando 1208 (talk) 08:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Two things here. First, anyone who clicks your name can see your block log with all the IP ranges from the Sockpuppet investigation. Yes it's easier with the post, but's it's easy anyway. And two, now that you changed the IPs to your handle, outside automated tools can connect your username and IP address in public databases... per WP:LOGGEDOUT. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:58, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Good to know. Though since my IP was already leaked I guess it's fine. I guess the question would be if it was easy, why did Knight feel the need to point it out? Isn't getting blocked punishment enough? But yeah good to know about automated tools, thanks Fyunck. Rolando 1208 (talk) 09:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Blocks are not issued as punishments, they are tools to prevent disruption. It should be clear that no IPs have been leaked, many of the IPs were used to post on this public page. Furthermore, no harassment is evidenced, and if there is harassment, it should be discussed at an appropriate forum and not an article talkpage. CMD (talk) 10:02, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, I explained why I posted it already: for full transparency; to make it clear it wasn't a "baseless accusation". Rolando has now changed the signatures on most of the comments they left as an IP to give their username, but at the end of the day anyone reading this thread has a right to know what happened here. Theknightwho (talk) 16:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Missing country codes

ISO 3166-1 has TWO alphabetical codes for each country (and one numeric code), one is two letters, one is three. Is there any reason why only the 2-letter code is mentioned here (CI, CIV and 384)? Is there any »good« reason that Côte d'Ivoire's pronunciation is tucked-away/hidden in a note? If French the appropriate language to pronounce the name and since pronunciation is local, which French would that be? Also, the CI Language article claims Dioula is also taught in school, so shouldn't it be included in the pronunciation guide?40.142.176.185 (talk) 23:27, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

We would use the English pronunciation of Cote d'Ivoire. It's in a note because the lead length was becoming way way way too long. There are already 3 names of which we normally limit it to two. With the pronunciations it was ridiculous, so a nice note was created. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages articles that use American English
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