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{{Caution|small=no|Please read the archive and discussion below '''before''' making ''yet another'' page move proposal.}}
{{American English}}
{{Outline of knowledge coverage|Côte d'Ivoire}}
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{{pp-move-indef|small=yes}}
{{Caution|small=no|Please read the archive and discussion below '''before''' making a page move proposal.}}
{{Old moves
|title1=Ivory Coast|title2=Côte d'Ivoire
|list=
*RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, '''No consensus''', 11 November 2005, ]
*RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, '''No consensus''', 8 January 2007, ]
*RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, '''No consensus''', 21 June 2010, ]
*RFC, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, '''No consensus''', 11 July 2010, ]
*RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, '''No consensus''', 19 June 2011, ]
*RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, '''Moved''', 12 June 2012, ]
**MVR, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, '''No consensus''', 10 July 2012, ]
*RM, Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire, '''Not moved''', 26 January 2022, ]
*RM, Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire, '''Speedy close''', 26 February 2022, ]
*RM, Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire, '''Moved''', 27 June 2024, ]
**MRV, Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire, '''Overturned to no consensus''', 12 July 2024, ]

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__TOC__ __TOC__


== Requested move 27 June 2024 ==
== Name ==

Do we really need subheaders for a paragraph on english media usage and another subheader for a paragraph on official usage? The whole section is about the size of a decent subsection, dividing it up is a crude and unnecessary expansion of the TOC. ] (]) 16:29, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

:I agree and have removed the headers. One-graph headers are unncessary. 06:42, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I would like to know why the article is called Côte d'Ivoire and not Ivory Coast. If we are calling it Côte d'Ivoire then why isn't the article on Spain called España or the article on Germany called Deutschland? We're not giving them special treatment so why is Ivory Coast differant? Furthermore the article on East Timor isn't called Timor-Leste however the Timor-Leste is mentioned in the article. I propose that the name of the article is changed to Ivory Coast but, like East Timor, the name Côte d'Ivoire be used in the article. ] (]) 10:55, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
: At the very top of the page there's a link to the dozens of past discussions on the same question (]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 11:08, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
:Well, the conclusion, after much discussion of the this issue in the past, seems to be that both Côte d'Ivoire and Ivory Coast are commonly used in English-language sources. So for instance the BBC will most often refer to the country as Ivory Coast, while The Economist will most often refer to it as Côte d'Ivoire. We have not been able to establish in any decisive way which of the names is most commonly used by reliable English-language sources. We are therefore staying with the current name, at least until decisive evidence can be shown that it is not the most commonly used name, as changing the name of this article would mean having to change the name of many other article to keep internal consistency within Misplaced Pages.] (]) 11:26, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
How can you not know which is used more in English? Ivory Coast, the English name for the country, or Côte d'Ivoire, the French name for it. To me it seems silly but if it's not changing, it's not changing. ] (]) 14:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
: "Ivory Coast" is an unofficial English ''translation'' of the country name. Just like if you chose to call me "Brett" because in your language it's a translation of "Brad", it does not make it my name (]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 14:23, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
::Then you're right back at the "Spain should be España" part of the argument. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:01, 19 April 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== "Ivory Coast"? ==

What's that? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:28, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

:And now, let's start another loop... ] (]) 21:41, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

::Maybe, maybe not, but I noted that USAToday was consistent in their usage of "Ivory Coast". This "Cote d'Ivoire" stuff is pretentious nonsense. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:10, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
:::Pretty much every major news source uses "Ivory Coast". See or ''''. ] (]) 12:22, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
::::This seems to be one of those cases where the rules about reliable sourcing get overridden by some inexplicable emotional thing. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 12:40, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::There is an open RM at ] where the same official vs. news service name issue is being debated. But apparently a Portuguese name can't compete with a French name when it comes to getting support from Wiki editors. ] (]) 23:13, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::Yeh, looks like the same argument over again. Apparently "reliable sources" don't matter anymore. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 23:47, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::::The Francophiles have been active ] as well, using the same partisan-admin-closes-multiple-times tactic. Getting back to Ivory Coast, makes it clear that "Ivory Coast" is far more common than "Cote d'Ivoire" on Google Books. Virtually no English-language reader is typing in "Cote D'Ivoire" as a search term, as you can see . ] (]) 05:36, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
: I see Kauffner got tired of fighting over removing the capitalization of wine region names (]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 10:21, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
:::And I see that your reading skills haven't improved: "]." That's the opening sentence of my proposal. ] (]) 13:05, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

::After following the '''numerous''' arguments over the name I have to say that I do now understand that Côte d'Ivoire isn't just the "French" name but just an alternative name in English for the country, just like we don't call have the Spanish name of Los Angeles (and not The Angels etc.) but the difference with those sort of names is that I have seen that Ivory Coast is in far more common usage (especially here in the UK) and I would NEVER hear anyone over a conversation talk about "Côte d'Ivoire" and always "Ivory Coast". Regardless if it's a French or English or Swahili name for all I care, the common usage is "Ivory Coast". The government's attempts for us to use Côte d'Ivoire should be considered but overruled as otherwise we should also change ] to ] or change ] to Myanmar, where the government there also is trying to increase usage of the new name. I think we should seriously consider moving it to Ivory Coast, and I bet there will be fewer arguments over the talk page over moving it back to Côte d'Ivoire. ] (]) 11:03, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
:::Obviously, I agree, with Cote d'Ivoire of course being a redirect. And when or if the common usage in English eventually becomes Cote d'Ivoire someday, then it should be moved back. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 13:25, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

== Requested Move: Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast ==
{{MRVdiscuss|date=2012 July 10}}

{{discussion top}}
{{consensus|There is certainly a lot to be considered when evaluating this discussion. I haven't actually counted but at a glance if we went by straight numbers we would arrive at yet another "no consensus" result. That is, in my opinion, not acceptable. Of course we don't do things that way anyway, but I wanted to be clear from the outset that strength of numbers was not a contributing factor to this close.

:*On the topic of which is the more widely used name in reliable sources we have contradictory and sometimes unclear information. However, several users analyzed not only sheer number of hits but what type of sources those hits were coming from. Those analyses were quite helpful and appreciated

:*The argument that "arguments have not changed since last time" is irrelevant and any such remarks were ignored when determining the close. Since there has never been a consensus on this issue it is only logical that arguments for both positions will be more or less the same. If this move had been unambiguously accepted or rejected in the past it would be a different story.

:*The core issue here is "what is the purpose of an article title?" All other arguments about colonialism, respecting the locals, what atlases or even other encyclopedias say etc are not entirely without merit but are secondary to that concern.

:*So, what this is about is not fairness or respect, it is about how best to serve our readers.

:*The majority of people who are ''not'' editors of this page are more likely to be familiar with the term "Ivory Coast." When they type that in they will see exactly what they were looking for right away and will know they are in the right place. Anyone searching "Côte d'Ivoire" will almost certainly already be aware that "Ivory Coast" is another common name for this place and will not suffer that same confusion. As is indicated in the discussion, many of the sources that use Côte d'Ivoire are not journalistic sources but rather governments or NGOs. It would be impolitic of them to use Ivory Coast, but we do not need to worry about that.

:*'''Therefore I conclude that the arguments to rename the article to "Ivory Coast" have more merit than the arguments to retain it at the current title.''' ] (]) 22:39, 8 July 2012 (UTC)}}

] → {{no redirect|1=Ivory Coast}} – All the major English-language news organizations use "Ivory Coast", including , '''', , '''', and . shows that "Ivory Coast" is far more common than "Côte d'Ivoire" on Google Books. For every U.S. reader who types in "Cote d'Ivoire" as a search term, 35 type in "Ivory Coast", according to . The numbers for and are similar. <small>New timestamp so this doesn't start in the backlog. ] (]) 11:50, 27 June 2012 (UTC)</small> ] (]) 04:03, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

===Supporting material===
The numbers in parenthesis are for the past year. This is an arbitrary restriction I added to reduce ghosting because in some cases the raw numbers are implausibly high. (The ''New York Times'' site obviously doesn't have anywhere near 15,000 stories on this subject.)

{| class="wikitable collapsible sortable"
! Organization|| Côte d'Ivoire || Ivory Coast || URLs
|-
|'''ABC News''' (Australia)||116 (3)||22,300 (243)||{{google|"Côte d'Ivoire" site:www.abc.net.au/news/}}<br>{{google|"Ivory Coast" site:www.abc.net.au/news/}}
|-
|'''BBC''' ||107 (26)||4,370 (1,990)||{{google|"Côte d'Ivoire" site:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/}}<br>{{google|"Ivory Coast" site:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/}}
|-
|'''The Telegraph''' ||91 (6)||966 (84)||{{google|"Côte d'Ivoire" site:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/}}<br>{{google|"Ivory Coast" site:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/}}
|-
| '''The Times''' (London)||2 (0)||188 (0)||{{google|"Côte d'Ivoire" site:www.thetimes.co.uk}}<br>{{google|"Ivory Coast" site:www.thetimes.co.uk}}
|-
| '''The Economist'''||4,450 (518)|| 4,050 (73) ||{{google|"Côte d'Ivoire" site:www.economist.com}}<br>{{google|"Ivory Coast" site:www.economist.com}}
|-
| '''CNN'''||172 (2)||2,390 (93)||{{google|"Côte d'Ivoire" site:edition.cnn.com}}<br>{{google|"Ivory Coast" site:edition.cnn.com}}
|-
| '''Fox News'''||81 (4)||1,110 (110)||{{google|"Côte d'Ivoire" site:www.foxnews.com}}<br>{{google|"Ivory Coast" site:www.foxnews.com}}
|-
|'''New York Times'''||151 (7)||15,300 (249)||{{google|"Côte d'Ivoire" site:www.nytimes.com}}<br>{{google|"Ivory Coast" site:www.nytimes.com}}
|-
|'''Wall Street Journal'''||267 (28)||1,360 (146)||{{google|"Côte d'Ivoire" site:online.wsj.com}}<br>{{google|"Ivory Coast" site:online.wsj.com}}
|-
|'''SABC News''' (South Africa)||38||503||{{google|"Côte d'Ivoire" site:online.sabc.co.za}}<br>{{google|"Ivory Coast" site:online.sabc.co.za}}
|-
|'''iafrica''' (South Africa)||59||507||{{google|"Côte d'Ivoire" site:www.iafrica.com}}<br>{{google|"Ivory Coast" site:www.iafrica.com}}
|-
|'''PBS''' (US)||78||587||{{google|"Cote d'Ivoire" site:www.npr.org}}<br/>{{google|"Ivory Coast" site:www.npr.org}}
|-
|'''The Guardian''' (UK)||8||3,242||
|-
|'''Daily Mail''' (UK)||23||2363||
|-
|'''The Sun''' (UK)||0||1453||
|-
|'''Highbeam'''|| (1,269)|| (3,049)||
|}


*NPR has results for "Ivory Coast", but only for "Côte d'Ivoire". Even if the searches are restricted to just the last year, Ivory Coast is still nearly twice as common as Côte d'Ivoire, 30 to 16. --] (]) 01:47, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
**I get 476 for Ivory Coast ({{google|"ivory coast" site:www.npr.org}}), 73 for "Cote d'Ivoire" ({{google|"cote d'Ivoire" site:www.npr.org}}). ] (]) 02:23, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
***I actually go to the site and search instead of monkeying around with Google and trying to search the site without going there. --] (]) 05:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
*, recommended by the '']'' as the source "for the spelling of names of places" (§8.43) , uses "Ivory Coast". ] (]) 16:15, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

=== Previous move discussions ===
Note: this includes all of the somewhat centralized, formal discussions. There have also been lots of other discussions about the name, outside the bounds of these particular proposals; see the talk page archives linked above for details.
* ] '''result: no consensus'''
* ] '''result: no consensus'''
* ] '''result: no consensus'''
* ] '''RFC never closed, no clear consensus'''
* ] '''result: no consensus'''

<br>
________
<p>This history reminds me of the history of ], which went through ''seven'' "no consensus" RMs over eight ''years'' before a move to ] finally succeeded, and stability and peace was finally established. That history is documented at ]. Do we really want to go through something similar with this article? --] (]) 15:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

===Survey===
<small>Several editors contributed their views while I still working on the draft at ] ] (]) 07:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)</small>
*'''Support''' - Until or if the French name becomes the predominant name in English-language sources, we should follow Misplaced Pages rules and use the current common name in English. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 07:13, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
::Looks like . ] (]) 02:08, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
:::Ok Danlaycock, good idea, if we take your reference then let's also move ] back to Bombay, ] back to ], ] back to Rhodesia or even Moldova back to Moldavia?? That one source is a load of rubbish. ] (]) 09:16, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::::Please recheck your inputs. I get a showing the change in usage shorty after Zimbabwe changed its name 1979. As for the others, these are hardly surprising. Bombay and Rangoon are both still widely used. ] (]) 21:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Ivorians may call it Cote D'Ivoire in the same way Germans call their country "Deutschland". The convention on Misplaced Pages is to use the English name of the country. ~] <small>(])</small> 18:45, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
::Correct, however unlike Deutschland, Cote d'Ivoire is also widely used in the English language (see for example). The relevant question here is which is the ]. ] (]) 02:08, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
:::An argument that would require that we refer to Japan as Nippon.©] 20:32, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::::Which we should, IF it were the most commonly-used name for that country in English. But it ain't. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 20:36, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Follow most common usage in reliable English sources. --] (]) 00:29, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
**'''Addendum''': Also, and perhaps more importantly, per the '''recognizability''' ]. Any English speaker familiar with the country is going to recognize "Ivory Coast"; not all will recognize the French name. This is essentially the same reason we have ], ] and ], despite their commonly used official names ''which are less recognizable''. --] (]) 21:16, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' - There's simply no evidence that Ivory Coast is more common. , , Google News ( versus ) as well as nearly all major English-language encyclopedias and dictionaries (, , , , , , and ) all favour Cote d'Ivoire over Ivory Coast. ] (]) 02:08, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Support''' per ] and ]. "Ivory Coast" is routinely and usually used in English sources as the unqualified name for the country, i.e. without a parenthetical ''"Côte d'Ivoire"'' whereas ''"Côte d'Ivoire"'' often carries a parenthetical "Ivory Coast". Therefore, "Ivory Coast" is also preferable per the ]. As the nominee notes, educated readers who partake of multiple English news sources might be genuinely confused by seeing ''"Côte d'Ivoire"'' as a title. — ] 02:29, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Support''' per ]. --] (]) 02:40, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. Give it a rest, there are no new arguments. Misapplying "common usage" like that we might as well move ] to ] and ] to ]. ] (]) 02:50, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Support''' per ], and the fact that this is the ''English'', Misplaced Pages and all. ]]] 02:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''', ], ], ] all point to using "Ivory Coast" in modern ]. Dictionaries, and Traditional Encyclopedias are repositories of knowledge, but do not dictate to people what words to use. There is no "Language Police" (regulatory body like the ] or ]) for the English language, it evolves organically without a group of government regulators dictating "correct" terminology.--] ] 02:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::Misplaced Pages's naming policies (]) aren't based on what words people use, they're based on "prevalence in reliable English-language sources". Dictionaries, Traditional Encyclopedias and Maps/Atlases are precisely the types of sources we should follow. ] (]) 03:13, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' - if the country calls itself "Côte d'Ivoire" officially, that is the name the page should be at. This is a country, not an entertainer or a President; it behooves Misplaced Pages to be ''precisely accurate'' when it comes to country names. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 03:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*:So you are discounting ], ], ], ], ] as examples of articles using the unofficial ] variant of the country names?--] ] 03:09, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*::Without looking into it, those might actually *be* the official names in English language. Just because "Côte d'Ivoire" originates from the French language doesn't mean it's not part of the English language too - ]. And of couse *it is* part of the English language since it's in all major dictionaries - Oxford Dictionary, Cambridge Dictionary, etc. ] (]) 03:21, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*:::And that's the problem, without looking into it you have no knowledge, and are just going with your gut. If you looked into it, you would find that none of these names are official, and English is not an official language in any of these countries, so there would be no reason to have official English names. --] ] 03:29, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*::::But how about you, did you look into it? I didn't because I'm pretty sure that "Spain" and "Germany", just like "Côte d'Ivoire", are the correct names in English language. Just to give you an example - here's and in the Oxford Dictionary. For España, they just wrote "Spanish name for Spain.". For "Ivory Coast" they wrote "Another name for Côte d'Ivoire". Note that they didn't write "English name for Côte d'Ivoire" because "Côte d'Ivoire" is the English name. ] (]) 04:08, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*::::: Neither "España" nor "Spain" is not the official name of the country in any language. The official name of "Spain" is: "Reino de España", which translates into English as "Kingdom of Spain", into French as "Royaume d'Espagne", etc. We are not concerned about the official name, as the ] is what is used. If "Ivory Coast" is another name for "Côte d'Ivoire" then it is also the English name for it. --] ] 04:21, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*::::::Below you wrote that "Ivory Coast" appears 191 million times in your custom Google search and 189 million for "Côte d'Ivoire". By these results, are you seriously arguing that "Côte d'Ivoire" is not a common name? I'd say both seem to be equally common. Now we just need to choose which one is correct according to authoritative sources like dictionaries, encyclopedia, international bodies, etc. and not just according to biased English news agencies. ] (]) 04:49, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*:::::::Below, I was simply replying to/questioning on a comment. I did not argue any point. My reasoning for supporting "Ivory Coast" does not rest with only one "google search", or one ], but a combination. You have to go deeper into the data. You have to look at the whole picture. Dictionaries, encyclopedias, maps, are "published" on a very infrequent frequent basis relative to news reports, and other current sources, many are copied from previous versions or other documents of the same type. You also have to take into account the regional origin of the sources, as news outlets closer to the subject tend to use the local language's terminology instead of more common English terminology. For example, English media in Québec, will use french terms like ] instead of using the more widely recognized term ], this will affect "google search" results. And this discussion seems to be turning into more of a ] argument than a discussion in my opinion.--] ] 05:15, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*::::::But per your own admission, per the dictionary results Côte d'Ivoire is also the English name for the country. Therefore the argument is going nowhere as both are English names for the country. ] (]) 07:06, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

*:Absurd. We use ], the name most commonly used in reliable English sources, not the official name, ]. --] (]) 03:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' Yet another move request, and this one brings nothing new to the table because it is too biased to begin with. The nominator chose his favorite sources and compiled some statistic from that, but it means nothing since he ignored all the numerous sources that go against his preferred name. As outlined by TDL, all major encyclopedia and reference books use "Côte d'Ivoire". Likewise, all the international organizations - the UN, UN agencies, sport organizations, etc. also all use "Côte d'Ivoire". Of course, "Côte d'Ivoire" is also the name of the country, and it's not like it's written in Chinese or Arabic characters - even English-speakers can read that. As for the principle of least astonishment, well readers often go astonished when they read encyclopedia, that's called "learning something" and there's nothing wrong with learning the correct name of a country. The title "Ivory Coast" is in bold in the lead anyway so there's no possible confusion. ] (]) 03:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Laurent. refers to it as "Cote d'Ivoire". As a note, google search rankings for "Ivory Coast" yield 118 million results, "Cote d'Ivoire" yields 135 million results, and "Côte d'Ivoire" yields 213 million results. Interestingly, that effect is almost reversed when the quotation marks are not included. (89.2 million, 36.5 million, and 56.5 million respectively) A similar search for English only sources yields 195 million, 151 million, and 201 million respectively when using quotations. I believe the searches highlight that "Côte d'Ivoire" is not only the official name, but is also the common name.&nbsp;]&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 03:35, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*:Did you exclude "Misplaced Pages" in your searches? That does affect the results, and shows 191 million for "Ivory Coast", slightly lower than 195, and only 189 million for "Côte d'Ivoire", quite a larger drop from 201 million. --] ] 04:37, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*::In any case, that would mean there is no common name at which point we get to choose. Without a common name, I prefer to use the official name used by the CIA and various government organisations.&nbsp;]&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 05:20, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' – the "evidence" is way too flaky. The n-gram demo by TDL seems to make it clear that the country's official French name is the name more commonly used in books in recent decades. One would need a better reason to change away from it. ] (]) 04:08, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' As with those who voted on support for move, likewise some foreign countries like ] and ] have kept their localized names. ] <sup>]</sup> 04:16, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - per Kauffner. ] (]) 04:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''' - "Ivory Coast" has been a purely colloquial name for the country for years. Let's use the country's proper name, please. -] (]) 05:03, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''<s>Comment</s> changed to Oppose''' - I'm not sure how usual it is to have an unlisted pre-RM that doesn't show up on ]'s alerts. I too was struck by the per Dicklyon's comments. And frankly don't give a hoot what BBC says, there needs to be a WP essay ], that lists some of the weakness of news websites. I did a like-for-like search on both terms in Google Scholar with several key English hooks "+ africa" "+economy" "+trade" "+development" "+politics" and the results were:
:*
:* although a few were "Ivory Coast area" possibly meaning several countries
:Not particularly different. I don't care either way. But it would have to be an RM argument presented using better methodology than Fox News rather than . Britannica is far from perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more encyclopedic than Fox News. ] (]) 05:20, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::'''change to Oppose''' - go with Britannica. Changed to oppose. Why? Saw Pam's note on Guardian style book below "Ivory Coast.. but isn't THE Ivory Coast" In other words "President of Ivory Coast". Well in that case "President of Cote d'Ivoire" gets more GBhits.
:::That and the fact that WP:AFRICA's alerts don't seem to be working, so '''WP:AFRICA editors may be unaware that this RM is even happening.''' ] (]) 07:59, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per Kauffner's nomination and my comments last year. This RM is probably a good case of why previous RM participants should not be notified of a new RM. The most recent one ended as "no consensus", so of course if you notify everyone who participated in that discussion it's a near certainty that the new discussion will also be no consensus. ] (]) 05:26, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Mewulwe, The Bushranger and Kudzu1. The official name should be used. ] (]) 05:28, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::We do not use "official names" in Misplaced Pages, else we would have "Republique du Francais", "Україна", etc. We use common English names. How do we determine common English names? Not just by looking up individual works such as Britannica, etc., but by looking at usage in media such as the New York Times, etc. So "Ivory Coast" appears in results in the New York Times over the last year (the results seem way high, but I ran the search twice), but "Côte d'Ivoire" appears in only results. In the Los Angeles Times "Ivory Coast" yields results, while "Côte d'Ivoire" yields only results. The Economist yielded results for "Ivory Coast" over the past year and results for "Côte d'Ivoire" over the same period. It's not even a horse race when it comes to common usage in English, it is Ivory Coast. --] (]) 06:35, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
:::Your first point ("Not just by looking up individual works") is the key point here. Obviously individual publications will prefer one form or the other. But the . How can that possibly be if Ivory Coast is the common name? ] (]) 08:27, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::::Like I've mentioned about Danlay, that source isn't too reliable as it still implies that we should us ] instead of ] because it's "found more in books". What if in every book where Ivory Coast is written, they now also mention that an alternative name is (Côte d'Ivoire). Same for vice versa. ] (]) 09:37, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::So then why did the usage of "Ivory Coast" drop at the same time as "Cote d'Ivoire" increased? Unless the world decided on mass to stop talking about the country at precisely the same time that it changed its name, this explanation makes no sense. Even if your explanation was true, the usage of "Cote d'Ivoire" is significantly higher (~33%) so there must be many books using that name alone. ] (]) 21:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::::Adding "-Ivory Coast" doesn't seem to make much difference to the GBook results. A lot of the books that use "Cote d'Ivoire" are UN and official publications with specialist readership. Titles like '''', '''', and '''' give you the flavor. They must have OCR'd the ] library. ] (]) 10:17, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - In watching/reading the news it's almost always Ivory Coast... even just this month , and had articles on Ivory Coast. Does anyone really use Cote-dIvoire on a regular basis other than maybe France? ] (]) 06:07, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''<s>Weak support</s> Oppose''': my gut feeling goes with an oppose, but , in which I have great faith, says "Ivory Coast" (but stresses that it isn't "The Ivory Coast"). ]] 07:05, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::But since then, although I've heard the BBC News using "Ivory Coast", I've found that the uses "Côte d'Ivoire" as does the (though they list it as "Ivory Coast" among the Cs in the A-Z order on at least one page!). Clearly both names are very commonly used, but "Côte d'Ivoire" seems the way to go. ]] 07:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' WP:USEENGLISH - We have two competing terms which are widely used in the English language. WP:IRS Misplaced Pages has continually improved to decide on content based on the reliablity of sources not on the shear number of them, a fact that WP:COMMONNAME also echos - Interesting in this connection is also ]. The above numbercrunchings made by a few people show that the better sources actually favour the current title. The English language and with it the use of the terms we use for foreign countries and places is constantly evolving. We have to go with that flow and not try to stem the tide. Spain was mentioned as a counter example further above. The difference to Côte d'Ivoire is its respective age and importance in the English speaking world (remember the armada). My guess will be that if developments continue as now in 50 or so years Espania or even España will be at the stage Côte d'Ivoire is now. Somewhere along the line we will have that discussion again should we all live that long. ] (]) 07:41, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - For the simple fact that everyone here in the UK uses Ivory Coast. ] (]) 09:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - Thank you Laurent for putting a note on the corresponding French article. I strongly oppose this move for one reason as stated above. The official name of this country is "Côte d'Ivoire" not "Ivory Coast", though called the Ivory Coast in English. Ivory Coast can be redirected to Côte d'Ivoire and in the article's lead, the name Ivory Coast is already in bold. If Côte d'Ivoire is the name the inhabitants wish to use to refer to their country, then who are us to change it?] (]) 11:39, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::Misplaced Pages does not base naming decisions on either official names or the desires of the residents. Its only criterion is common English usage. Read ]. --] (]) 12:19, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
:::*I'm sorry Tamsier but what a load of bulls**t, why don't you march on over to ] and get that changed to ] then? How about hop on over to ] and change that to ] (its '''official''' name). Could always change ] to ], his '''official (birth) name'''?? I don't care about official names, this is about what '''WE''' call it, this is Misplaced Pages, not a foreign office. ] (]) 12:27, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::::*And since when do you have the right to say what inhabitants call it? If you look below you see that the inhabitants themselves call it Ivory Coast, I can't even imagine a person on the streets saying "Oh yes, I was born in "Cote d'Ivoire", English keyboards don't even have "ô" to spell the name correctly. Hence why in the past we use English alternatives for names such as Munich, Cologne or Copenhagen. ] (]) 12:30, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. The evidence is clear. We call it what reliable English-language sources call it. And that's "Ivory Coast". We also aim to call it what a majority of readers would be expecting us to call it. And that's "Ivory Coast". ] <sup><small><small>]</small></small></sup> 12:34, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''; there are no new arguments here. We already know media uses both, in ratios that are possibly varying by context, sometimes geographically, and at least occasionally out of politics; and that it's possible to cherry pick sets that show almost exclusive use of one or the other. Picking one for the article name needs to be done as neutrally as possible (given that there are POV overloads on both version); and defaulting to what the country's official name is &ndash; and the name official bodies call it &nash; is the most rational action. USEENGLISH is a red herring, here, and smacks of colonialism. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 12:38, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
**Using the French name smacks of kissing up, which is something that wikipedia is not supposed to do. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 12:47, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
**Furthermore, it was the French who originally colonized it. So retaining its French name is what ''really'' "smacks of colonialism". ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 11:23, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' - but not overwhelmingly strongly. ALl the sources listed above in the box are news sources. News today is, in general, aimed at a comparatively illiterate audience. Even 30 years ago when I was in college (yes, I am that old) business periodicals were discussing that TV, including TV news, was more or less aimed at the average 14 year old - the same might apply to other media as well. I think perhaps a more reliable source for how the subject is discussed might be print books. I have only one right here in front of me, the first edition of the Appiah/Gates ''Africana'' encyclopedia, but it includes its article on this country under the name "Cote d'Ivoire." I do not see that the evidence provided above in the box necessarily helps decide how the subject is referred to in such sources, but I would consider those sources a better indicator, and the one I have here uses the Cote d'Ivoire name. Part of the reason for the print news not using the CI name is the "ô" in "Côte", which isn't really available on most English typewriters. If that is at least part of the reason, I would consider that to be a very weak basis or partial basis for changing an article name. ] (]) 16:16, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Great to see Kauffner bringing one of his top-notch proposals to this topic. ] and ] are the obvious examples. And the ] argument is unassailable; I doubt most English speakers can even pronounce "Côte d'Ivoire." --] (]) 17:16, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
**Another example is ], rather than the official ]. --] (]) 17:21, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. It's the common, English name, as has been proven with reference to statistical data and individual, authoritative sources. Also, it's a lot easier and less surprising for readers to find and remember. ] (]) 17:28, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Neutral'''. Something seemed fishy about the ngrams. How could be so different from ? I tried running them both with and without the mark over the "o" to see if that made a difference. Eventually, I figured out that TDL's ngram was using a lowercase "L" instead of an uppercase "i" - so, "lvoire" instead of "Ivoire". For whatever OCR mixed-up reasons, that seems to make a huge difference in results. So I ran , with all the permutations of "Ivory Coast", "Cote d'Ivoire", and "Côte d'Ivoire" with lowercase "l"s and uppercase "I"s. And what does it show? That "Cote d'Ivoire" caught and surpassed "Ivory Coast" around 1993. The greatest disparity was around 1997, but the gap has narrowed since, so that the two are nearly identical. To me, that indicates that either title is probably acceptable under WP's guidelines, as readers are about equally likely to encounter either title. If "Ivory Coast" continues to close the gap and regain predominance (does anyone know if ngrams will ever reach past 2008?), then we can revisit. But for now, there's no compelling reason to change. ] (]) 18:48, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
** gives frequency numbers of 107 for "Ivory Coast" versus 6 for Cote d'Ivoire. So the above is a peculiarity of the Google Books database. Perhaps Googled OCR'd a shipment of UN-oriented material. shows that vastly more readers are using "Ivory Coast" as a search term. Recognizability is Wiki's No. 1 titling criteria, per ]. ] (]) 19:29, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
:::Nope, it's not just a Google peculiarity. Using the NGRAMS downloaded from the gives a frequency for Cote d'Ivoire of 245 and 140 for Ivory Coast.
:::And when I use the without any filters I get a frequency of 469 for Ivory Coast, 245 for Cote d'Ivoire and another 210 for Cte d'Ivoire (obviously an OCR reading error of the former.) ] (]) 21:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Mind-numbingly obvious support'''. I'm both astonished and disappointed that previous volunteer time has to be wasted discussing something so breathtakingly obvious.

:#Côte d'Ivoire and Ivory Coast are both common names for the subject in various contexts.
:#One of them is French, the other is English
:#Since we're the English Misplaced Pages, the English translation is indicated.
: This is exactly how the , , , , , , , , , and Wikipediae deal with it, '''that's how we should deal with it'''. We definitely should not be pandering to nationalism, and it is ridiculous to politicise common sense with colonialist apologist nonsense, because that's all this should remain - common sense. ] (]) 20:25, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::Côte d'Ivoire is as English as afternoon tea. Just ask the . Other language wikis are a) not reliable sources and b) don't base their titles on common usage in the English language. If Elfenbenskysten is the common name in the Dutch language than that should be the title and not Cote d'Ivoire. But that has nothing to do with the question of whether Ivory Coast is the common name in the English language. ] (])
:::Since the other wikis obviously do not base their titles on English language, and that I am not citing them as reliable sources but instead for the bucket-loads of common sense they exude, both of those points are irrelevant. There is a clear and established measure of use of the anglo-centric term, therefore that's what should inform the English Misplaced Pages. I notice that some opposition calls for the country to be called by its official name — when can I expect to see the proposal to move ] to ]? ] (]) 22:12, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::::You are comparing apples and oranges, Germany is called "Germany" in all English dictionaries, encyclopedia and media. The day "Deutschland" becomes the entry for Germany in the Oxford dictionary and Encyclopedia Britannica, I'm sure there will be discussion to change the name on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 01:34, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
* '''Oppose'''. This is a very long-discussed point of principle - that in WP:COMMONNAME we generally respect the right of a people to self-determination, as the UN does. This also hooks into the AmEng/BrEng issue as well (which always makes these discussions more fun) - using COCA as a source for a non-American subject is a surefire giveaway that the issue is being confused. It should remain at Côte d'Ivoire, until such time as the country changes its name. ] ] 20:36, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

::Err they are free to run their country as they see fit (well they aren't but unless you are suggesting war with France I think thats a bit outside our remit). That does not extend to being able to dictate to the English language how it should work.©] 20:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
:::I agree. As I said, we should not damage common sense with the irrelevant politicisation of language for its own sake. ] (]) 20:52, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' per commonname and all the reasons mentioned in the last move discussion which failed to gain a consensus to move, nothing much changes in a a year, or is this an annual thing we have to keep discussing. ] (]) 20:51, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' No other argument than the politicization of the wiki.] (]) 04:12, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per Kauffner. <font color="#004225">—</font> ]] 09:55, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Ok, this is enough. These regular RM's all across the project because ] have now become disruptive to the project as a whole. The name of the country in English and French is Cote d'Ivoire. The well-used demonym "Ivorians" means very little: it is, after all, a "nickname" for all intents and purposes ... as is "Ivory Coast". Indeed, they do have the demonym "Ivoirian" as well. Once again, the term "Ivory Coast" itself is a region that expands beyond the borders of this country, and not a country itself. Yes it happens to be the ''direct translation'' of the actual name of the country. If you don't like the fact that the English Misplaced Pages happens to have names that ''appear'' to be French, I would invite you to stop using words in the project such as "transportation", and any other word that comes '''directly''' from French ... or indeed, those from other languages. (]''']''']) 11:34, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. "Ivory Coast" is likely to be more recognizable than "Côte d'Ivoire". ] <small>]</small> 20:03, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' once more into the breach, dear friends, this is the common name, it is certainly what British television channels and most newspapers call its football team when it plays in the World Cup. ] (]) 20:56, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - For the millionth time, Ivory Coast is supported by ] and ], as it is Misplaced Pages policy to use English titles. It is more recognizable, and is what people will search for since it is easier to spell. The fact that the country calls itself that is completely irrelevant, as we don't call Germany Deutschland, etc. and it really makes no sense to keep it at Côte d'Ivoire any longer. <small>P.S. I haven't been contributing to Misplaced Pages in a while, and I came to this page just to see of there was a move discussion so I could add my input once again. The fact that there just happens to be an open move discussion the 1st time I check is just sad. This issue is not going to go away, move the article already.</small> --] (]) 22:48, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' ] ] (]) 11:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''oppose''' and salt; either name is common, so default to official name of country. This continues to come up, and every time it ends with no consensus to move. This should be salted for at least 2 years before another nom can be put up - it's a waste of time.--] (]) 15:00, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
**I know of no precedent (much less a policy or guideline) for defaulting to the "official name" in such cases. Did you just make that up? As far as I know, in a case like this -- where one name is clearly more recognizable (to English speakers) than the other -- we default to the more recognizable name. --] (]) 17:40, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
***Here is the relevant guideline: ]; to wit: "If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local name."; there is a dispute about whether Cote D'ivoire or Ivory Coast is more widely accepted in English; thus, defaulting to the official/local name is a reasonable solution (and reading of the guideline). I point out simply that consensus has not been there for a move, and it's unlikely to be there this time. Why do people care so much? --] (]) 18:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
****Well, sure, ''"If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English,..."''. But that's not relevant here since '''Ivory Coast''' ''is'' widely accepted in English; that's not in dispute. --] (]) 00:14, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::"'''Ivory Coast''' ''is'' widely accepted in English; that's not in dispute." - Seriously? Have you been following this RM? That is the entire point of this debate. The guideline defines "widely accepted" as ]. While "Ivory Coast" is certainly used quite often, there is plenty of evidence that it isn't the most commonly used. I don't see how anyone can conclude that it is indisputably the most often used name for the country. ] (]) 01:14, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''- Côte d'Ivoire is used in English and is the official name of the country. It is the best name and fine to use in an English encyclopedia. ''']''' (] • ]) 19:31, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
* '''Oppose:''' The French name is official and widely used. --] (]) 22:50, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' The French name ''is'' the common name as well (and arguments can be made for both that or the Ivory Coast), but combining this stalemate with the fact that the French name is the official name means we should go with that one. <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 01:13, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' Just a couple of minutes ago BBC News had a report on child labour in that country, it called it "the Ivory Coast". The BBC is one of the most important news sources there is in the English-speaking world. I rest my case! ] (]) 01:22, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
** See an online version of the report here: . ] (]) 01:33, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
***See my recently added number above in the supporting evidence section for NPR in the US--almost seven to one in favor of "Ivory Coast". --] (]) 01:49, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
* '''Support''' The people I know from this country say they're from "Ivory Coast", because that's the only chance they have of being understood. Regardless of what the govt wants, saying ''Côte d'Ivoire'' when speaking English is like pronouncing Paris "Paree". — ] (]) 02:23, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
* '''No Consensus'''. Well there's a lot a material here and a lot to read. My personal experience is that it's always referred to as Côte d'Ivoire. Thirty-forty years ago that was not true. My big ol' atlas has Côte d'Ivoire. So does yours probably, again unless it's 30+ or so years old, since I would venture that few if any first-rate atlases use Ivory Coast. The nearby country of ] is called that and not ], because that's what people call it. Same with Côte d'Ivoire, in my experience. ] (]) 04:14, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
**You could spend less time with old atlases and take a look at . ] (]) 10:48, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
***Though I can understand why some want this move request, I keep being amazed that you're the one who started it. You must be British to be so one-sided. Though not British enough to care about all the British dictionaries and encyclopedia, which all go against your preferred name. ] (]) 16:44, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
****Well, if it comes down to it, I'd rather go with National Geographic and Rand-McNally etc. than Reuters and the BBC etc. It's a matter of choice I guess, which is why I say there's no consensus, so we might as well stick with the current state. ] (]) 16:56, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
*****It's because here in the UK we always hear Ivory Coast in football and in the news but NEVER do we hear of "Cote d'Ivoire". I would be really shocked if someone came up to me and asked if I watched the "Cote d'Ivoire" game, if someone would ask me if I've ever visited "Myanmar" I would understand and respond in terms of Burma but with Ivory Coast the distinction is not the same. Yes the dictionaries and government use CI, but then again those dictionaries (I will keep using this point) use ]. ] (]) 16:59, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::Repeating your point about the USA doesn't make it true: , , , , . ] (]) 17:57, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
*****There's a political side to this discussion. Of course, British media, except the ones that *have* to be neutral if they want to be taken seriously (dictionary, encyclopedia - you know, like us), won't go for Côte d'Ivoire and will basically reject the wish of the Côte d'Ivoire government. Chinese media, on the other hand, who have lots of interest in Africa, won't reject the wish of the African governments and go with whatever name they want to use, in that case "Côte d'Ivoire". ] (]) 16:46, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

*'''Support''' This is the English Misplaced Pages and if users are getting to a page via redirect from English to another language, the other language title would not be appropriate per ]. ''''']]]''''' 16:37, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
:* Except, as has been argued above (and I point out just below), Côte d'Ivoire '''''is''''' the common name in English sources. Or at least it's more or less equal with Ivory Coast. <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 20:00, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
::*Supposing it was ever mentioned on a TV newscast, how did they pronounce it? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:17, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' It's about time this was changed. The "official"-based argument is absolute nonsense such as it is on the ] article. In most media in the non-French Language it is known as the Ivory Coast, end of fucking story. People using the US-argument is a pathetic comparison from people who can't take everything as an individual case. --] (]) 18:33, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
** You mean non-French news sources that use Côte d'Ivoire? In fact, when I compare Côte d'Ivoire with Ivory Coast in Google News, I get 332,000 results for the former and 156,000 for the latter. <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 20:00, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
***How many times do I have bust this myth? Of the examples of "Cote d'Ivoire" on Google News, are in French. ] (]) 01:34, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
**** I'm still getting 332,000 results and 84,000 isn't enough to change that. <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 02:00, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
*****That's not the number that comes up when I click the link you gave above. ] (]) 02:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
**Can we please have no more of the Google-hit-counting tomfoolery? You should ''both'' be experienced enough to know that ]. ] (]) 12:17, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - how about a moratorium on the naming issue until the article reaches Featured (or at least Good) status? There's seems a rather disproportionate amount of effort put into worrying about whether A is a redirect to B or vice versa, when it ought be abundantly clear by now that either is acceptable and neither is demonstrably superior to the other to the satisfaction of a majority of interested Wikipedians. ] <sup>]</sup> 19:04, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
:Well I will go with whatever the outcome of this request move is and after this is finished (until the next RM) I will try and improve the article :) ] (]) 19:57, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' The usage in recent English news and academic sources is mixed with no overwhelming majority so there is no single common name to speak of. However, the current title is the official English name as sanctioned by ISO 3166. Since there is no single common name, it makes sense to go by what the internationally agreed upon English name is. ] (]) 05:34, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
*'''Weak support'''. "Ivory Coast" is an established English name. Very many of the interwiki links point to articles named "ivory coast" in the respective language, rather than "Côte d'Ivoire". I vaguely remember some Côte d'Ivoire politician demanding that the name of the country should be "Côte d'Ivoire" in every language in the world, but it wasn't actually taken seriously. ] &#124; ] 07:12, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
:'''strong support''' English Misplaced Pages and commonname; Its not even controversial jsut a translation unlike Macedonia and myanmar. At any rate, the official nam will alwyas be in the infobox and first sentence with bold ext.] (]) 15:14, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. This has been debated on this page for years, and the arguments do not appear to have got stronger with time. The two names are more or less equally common in general English usage, which is what allows the debate to continue interminably; however, in such a case, it seems reasonable to go with what the ''expressed preference of the country'', such as we can identify it. That provides a weak indicator for Côte d'Ivoire, but a weak indicator is all we're ever going to get here. ] (]) 14:49, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
**The only claim of documented supported in this discussion for the use of the ''expressed preference of the country'' criterion is supposedly at ], but that says to use the ''"local name"'' only when ''"no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English"'', which is clearly not the case here. Many counter-examples from actual practice (search for "Taiwan" on this page) have been given above. <p>Why should we follow a guideline that does not even apply when we can follow the ''recognizability'' ] which obviously applies and is clearly laid out in ]? '''Ivory Coast''' is more recognizable to English users than is '''Côte d'Ivoire''', which is borne out in the news reference stats from all over the English-speaking world, as provided in this proposal. Why do we have policy and guideline if we just ignore them? --] (]) 20:07, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
***I am not sure I can agree with you that the "recognizability" argument automatically means using Ivory Coast - as a significant fraction of English-language uses refer to Côte d'Ivoire, it is presumably recognizable! The "use English" guideline is designed for cases where the local name and the English name are different; here, there are two widely used English names, one of which is the ''same'' as the local name. This is something of an edge case of the policy; we should be careful not to argue ourselves into an unhelpful result by reading it too closely. ] (]) 21:53, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
****If you don't think "Ivory Coast" is significantly more recognizable than "Côte d'Ivoire" to most of our readers... we'll just have to agree to disagree. But surely "Ivory Coast" is more ''natural'': "those that readers are likely to look for or search with as well as those that editors naturally use to link from other articles." Again this is criteria clearly stated in policy vs. a "use the official name" criterion that is not explicitly stated in any guideline, or implied by convention in practice. --] (]) 22:29, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
*****If I might butt in... I think the idea is that "Côte d'Ivoire" ''must be'' both recognizable and natural to an English speaker ''simply because'' a large number of English-language sources use it. If you encounter a term somewhere, then that term is how you recognize the subject. The question of recognizability is not "Which term sounds more English?", but "Which term is a speaker of English more likely to have encountered?" "Upper Volta" sounds much more English than "Burkina Faso". But sources now universally use the latter, so it is more recognizable and natural to use as the WP article title. Here, usage is quite split, as we've seen. But all that means is that recognizability and naturalness is a wash, and we have to look elsewhere to choose a title. ] (]) 22:56, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
******I think what we've seen is that references that favor official names, like certain encyclopedias do, tend to go with... the official name. But sources more frequently encountered on a daily basis - like major English papers, which is what both reflects and drives what is recognizable and natural - tend to go with Ivory Coast. --] (]) 23:53, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
:::::::"references that favor official names, like certain encyclopedias do" - Sorry, but that's just nonsense. I see plenty of examples of unofficial, common names being used by Britannica (, , , , ) and Columbia (, , ) encyclopedias. The article on Taiwan should be located at ] (official or not) because that is its widely accepted English language name. However, in this case it's just not possible to look at all the evidence and conclude that Ivory Coast is the country's widely accepted English language name (ie the ]). Both names are often used in English with no convincing evidence that Ivory Coast is used any more frequently. ] (]) 02:06, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

:'''Support''' let's use English name where it's applied. ] (]) 18:45, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
::]:
::]:
::]:
::]:
::]:
::]: (Ivory Coast takes you to Cote d'Ivoire)
::Come again? <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 22:57, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', current usage is mixed. When there is no clear reason to do anything else, use the official local name. —''']''' (]·]) 09:09, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
*'''Strongly Oppose''', The official name, as noted, is widely in use throughout the English press, by the U.S. State department, and is official at the UN. I don't understand Wikiluddites who have brought this issue up once again. Let's end this discussion and leave this article title alone. ] (]) 18:18, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' move to ']' per ]. --<font style="font-variant:small-caps">]<span style="border:2px solid black;">&nbsp;'''<span style='color:green'>]</span>'''&nbsp;</span>]</font>22:03, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
*:You did read the last sentance of ]? ] (]) 11:52, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
*::Yes we did thanks, it says that ''if'' the usage of the name is mixed use the local. Well firstly locals of Ivory Coast introduce themselves to English-speakers as being from "the Ivory Coast", secondly (see above) usage in the media is overwhelmingly in favour of Ivory Coast anyway. Problem? ] (]) 23:15, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
::::I thought we had already pretty thoroughly debunked that idea that "the media is overwhelmingly in favour of Ivory Coast." Why is it being asserted again? ] (]) 00:11, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
:::::Did you look at the chart in the nomination? On Highbeam, there are hits for "Ivory Coast", for "Cote d'Ivoire". ] (]) 07:23, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
::::::Of course you get nearly zero hits for "Cote d'Ivoire" when you don't use the search tool properly. Highbeam actually gives versus for "Ivory Coast". And it's rather disingenuous to cite an article from (before the name changed) which use "Ivory Coast". Limiting the search to the last two years gives 3,598 for "Cote d'Ivoire" and 7,376 for "Ivory Coast". ] (]) 19:55, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
:::::::I stand corrected. English-language media usage for Ivory Coast in the last two years is "only" 67 percent of the total for Ivory Coast plus Cote d'Ivoire. What are the top two results for "Ivory Coast"? The Associated Press and the ''Christian Science Monitor''. For "Cote d'Ivoire"? Press releases from the White House and the UN. I note that the usage rate for Ivory Coast is slightly higher (68 percent) in the last year. So if anyone is supporting the current title because they think there is a trend, they should think again. ] (]) 00:45, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' If we're going to use a colonial language we may as well use the one we're all speaking. Either use ] or use English. ] (]) 16:51, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
*'''Note''' I requested closure of this at ANI. --] (]) 16:58, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

===Discussion===
:A few points of clarification:
:*As the [[Talk:Côte_d'Ivoire/Archive_4#Requested_move:_C.C3.B4te_d.27Ivoire_--.3E_Ivory_Coast|last
time he proposed this move]], the posted stats have failed to account for the limitations of the ] software used to scan these books. When one properly takes this into account (ie that capital l's are frequently misinterpreted as small l's) results: 30 years ago Cote d'Ivoire usage was near non-existent, but when the country changed its name in 1985, usage of this moniker began increasing rapidly while Ivory Coast dropped equally quickly. It overtook Ivory Coast around 1993 and has been more common ever since. Using the database one finds that Cote d'Ivoire has nearly double the frequency (245) of Ivory Coast (140).
:*Cote d'Ivoire is far more commonly used in news sources. A Google news search shows that gets more than double the number of hits of when restricted to English-language sources from 2012. Major news organizations such as and prefer Cote d'Ivoire.
:*Nearly all major English-language encyclopedias and dictionaries, including , , , , , , and use Cote d'Ivoire over Ivory Coast.
:*As for the Google insights numbers, they have relevance to ] which is dictated by "its prevalence in reliable English-language sources". Obviously random people who entered text into a search engine box aren't reliable. ] (]) 01:28, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::*It's good that you brought up the CNN entry, as it demonstrates the opposite of what you're claiming. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:42, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
:::*The use of the CNN link to support ] is laughable. Every article linked from that page uses the English "Ivory Coast". — ] 02:30, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::::*I guess he forgot to look at the details before he posted it. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 12:45, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
:::*Yeah, "Cote d'Ivorie" really is common on Google News. In . You know what? We heard this one . ] (]) 02:19, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
::*Yes, you're right! '''Cote d'Ivoire''' is more common! After this request move, can we move the article from '''Côte d'Ivoire''' to '''Cote d'Ivoire'''. I can't believe how silly we have been, you have clearly pointed out that without the "ô" is more common!!! LET'S HAVE ANOTHER REQUESTED MOVE.
::Google Maps also used Ireland for ], Myanmar for ] and in Africa used "Congo" for the ]. ] (]) 13:47, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

*I realize this is original research but, in professional dealings with individual 10-20 Ivorians (although they were not UN/NGOcrats) over several years, I have only had one person introduce himself as from ''"Côte d'Ivoire"''. The remainder have simply stated they were from "Ivory Coast". So using the English name is clearly not a huge issue of contention or offense in this regard. — ] 02:30, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

*I checked the , but the frequency numbers I got were nothing like TDL's:
:::::{| class="wikitable collapsible sortable"
! || 2000-2004||2005-2009||2010-2012
|-
|'''Ivory Coast'''||142||53||107
|-
|'''Cote Ivoire''' ||17||8||6
|-
|} ] (]) 09:33, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
:The numbers I posted comes from the raw NGRAMS data I downloaded from the and gives a frequency for Cote d'Ivoire of 245 and 140 for Ivory Coast. Using your source (and taking into account OCR errors) gives:
:::::{| class="wikitable collapsible sortable"
! || 2000-2004||2005-2009||2010-2012||Total
|-
|'''Ivory Coast'''||142||53||107||469
|-
|'''Cote d'Ivoire''' ||17||8||6||245
|-
|'''Cte d'Ivoire''' ||26||126||45||210
|-
|}
:Other minor corruptions I found where Cote d'lvoire (15) and Cte d'lvoire (8) (Totals). So again, there is no evidence that Ivory Coast is more commonly used. ] (]) 21:07, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::You are counting the OCR variants for "Cote d'Ivoire," but not for "Ivory Coast." This is hardly an honest effort. Even by the above numbers, "Ivory Coast" is still ahead. If you take the numbers as COCA gives them, "Ivory Coast" has almost twice the frequency of "Cote d'Ivoire". The usage rate for "Cote d'Ivoire" was 53 percent for 1995-1999, 10.6 percent for 2000-2004, 13 percent for 2005-2009, and 5.3 percent for 2010-2012. Perhaps usage is dropping rapidly, but more likely there is some problem with the earlier numbers. ] (]) 22:07, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
:::And it's equally plausible that there's a problem with the more recent data that you're using to support the move. You're using ] to dismiss any data that disputes your position as a "peculiarity" or a "problem" while justifying the move using data from the ''exact same sources'' that supports your position.
:::I looked for OCR variants of "Ivory Coast" as well and was unable to find any with significance usage. You are of course more than welcome to look for yourself and post your results. As it stands, the variants of "Cote d'Ivoire" outnumber those of "Ivory Coast". The claim that "Ivory Coast" is the common name just isn't supported by the evidence. ] (]) 23:09, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::::If you want go by COCA data, please explain how 455 outnumbers 469. You are accusing me of committing circular reasoning by relying on COCA? The RM is based on the usage by news organizations, and doesn't even mention COCA. ] (]) 01:41, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::My apologies, I'll go slower this time. Adding up the "Cote d'Ivoire" variants we get: 245+210+15+8=478 > 469.
:::::Your RM claimed . When I demonstrated that in fact it actually showed the opposite, you dismissed it as a . Now that I've demonstrated that the COCA data doesn't show what you thought it did either, you but continued to argue that the data proved your point. Every time the metric you choose ends up supporting Cote d'Ivoire you ] the data that supports your position and dismiss any that disputes it as flawed. ] (]) 03:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::: For 1990 to 1994, COCA gives a frequency of 140 (59 percent) for "Cote d'Ivoire." GNews suggests that there was near-zero English-language usage at this time. I knew about the problems with the COCA data before I posted my proposal, which is why I didn't include it. In my reply in Dohn joe, I pointed out that COCA shows a very different pattern of usage than Google Ngram does, and it does not appear that you are disputing this claim. ] (]) 05:10, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

*My search of the Economist also shows that the above claim about that publication is false. What the style guides to media say is irrelevant. What the journalists actually '''use''' is relevant. During the last year, four articles have used "Ivory Coast", zero have used "Côte d'Ivoire". Style guide be damned :p --] (]) 10:40, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
::Perhaps your search failed; I see hundreds with cote d'Ivoire . ] (]) 21:59, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
:::No, Dicklyon, I used the Economist's actual web site search. I don't trust Google searches of a web site. --] (]) 03:37, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
::::Hmm, I get roughly for Cote d'Ivoire using the Economist's website versus for Ivory Coast. ] (]) 03:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::Ok guys, that's great to see that some American places are using the Coat d'Ivour, but not all English speakers are American, and in British English and South African English (since South Africa is on the same continent as Ivory Coast) they almost exclusively use "Ivory Coast" and these nations are the ones with the most relevance to the country as they are closer and have more historical ties! ] (]) 07:21, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::Isn't ''The Economist'' a famously British rag? Anyway, both names are common in all English variants. ] (]) 04:00, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

:::::::Yes it is. I was interested in the discrepancy, because such a difference could be relevant for the presentation of ghits in future. I think I can explain some of the difference. I went to the 10th page returned by Dicklyon's search and chose the phrase "Côte d'Ivoire capital" added the word "capital" to Dicklyon's search and . It returns about 295 pages. What seems to have happened is that the Economist has internal links on 294 pages to the same one article. An returns just one page. That probably accounts for the difference. Looking at TDL's returns, it is not set to just the last year like Dicklyon's was. It is not clear to me how to set the Economist's search to just the last year. But one thing of note is that the Economist also lists where on its site the the article was originally published. But one should not rely on hits alone for example see the last paragraph of this article "" (June 10 2012) by S.A., it is a correction and includes the statement "Also a reference to the country as the Ivory Coast was left it when it should have been changed to Côte d'Ivoire." Which is a good example of why counting search returns without looking at them can be misleading. -- ] (]) 10:39, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
*I've opposed the move, but I'll add my latest research: the online ] defines "Ivorian" as "Of or pertaining to the Ivory Coast." or "A native or inhabitant of the Ivory Coast.". Not what I was hoping to find - but how often do they update the terminology used in their definitions, as opposed to the actual headwords of the dictionary, I wonder? Anyway, there it is. But please, let's just toss a coin and decide one way or the other and get back to improving the encyclopedia. This is so finely balanced that 49% of editors are going to be unhappy whichever way it goes. Just provide redirects from all imaginable heading, including all the lousy spellings which non-francophone readers might try, and get on with it. ]] 11:01, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
**I won't be unhappy. It will simply provide more ammunition for the ongoing battle to prevent the English wikipedia from becoming the French wikipedia. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 11:17, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
*And another bit of research, this time on UK use: , the verbatim account of speech in the House of Commons, for exact phrases, finds 335 uses of "cote d'ivoire" and 713 of "ivory coast". Certainly not "almost exclusively", but a broad majority of use for the "Ivory Coast" version. ]] 11:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

**Let's be honest here, how many people on wikipedia really type in "Côte d'Ivoire", there's so many places where you can make a spelling or grammatical mistake that I bet the majority of people on this wiki just type in Ivory Coast and wait to see if it redirects or not. I still have no idea how to get a "ô" using my keyboard, and I really doubt that people who aren't used to typing with funny accents and umlauts know how to either. So it seems that Côte d'Ivoire will almost always be found via a redirect. ] (]) 11:35, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
::: You're right. Although I use a bilingual keyboard, I'm a lazy fucker and simply type Cote d'Ivoire ... so what? (]''']''']) 11:46, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
:::That is the purpose of redirects. They redirect from alternate names or common spellings. 99% of the people who use Côte d'Ivoire will type Cote d'Ivoire because it is easier to type and they know it will get them to the same page, not because they believe Côte d'Ivoire should be replaced with Cote d'Ivoire. Personally, I type Ivory Coast to get to Côte d'Ivoire. It isn't the correct title, but it is easier for me to type. What was the argument in your statement anyways?&nbsp;]&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 13:57, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
::::The most important quality of a title is recognizability, according to ]. In other the words, when the reader glances at the title, he should be thinking, "Yeah, this the article I'm looking for" not, "I wonder if I got misdirected to French Misplaced Pages." ] (]) 14:13, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

:::::My point is some media really so use "Cote d'Ivoire", so all these sources claiming IV and CI are the same frequency is somewhat misleading as the later includes both spellings. ] (]) 14:32, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::I think it is also worth checking some print media, as I said before. If anyone wanted to check ''The Statesman's Yearbook 2012,'' which I think is an extremly highly regarded reference source, it lists the country under the name Cote d'Ivoire. Other than Timor-Leste, one of the other listings, I think it is one of the few if only listings in that source in other than English. On that basis, I think that there probably is sound basis for saying that in several works, the English translation of the name of the country is, for whatever reason, unusually not used in this case, and, maybe, Timor-Leste. But I do think that book, and the fact that this is one of the few countries whose name is not presented in English translation in this book, is further evidence that the CI name perhaps should be used here. ] (]) 17:40, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Comment:''' This talk page is now over 100 kilobytes in size, and '''only''' consists of discussion about the name of the country. I'd bet there is no other country in the world whose Misplaced Pages article has caused such a thing. ] &#124; ] 04:45, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

::Misplaced Pages's Burma and Taiwan are pretty similar beasts. ] (]) 06:36, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

====]====
Let's look at what the ] guideline has to say:

*] (first criteria):
:-"Consult English-language encyclopedias (we recommend Encyclopedia Britannica, Columbia Encyclopedia, Encarta, each as published after 1993). If the articles in these agree on using a single name in discussing the period, it is the widely accepted English name."
::-In our case, , and all use "Côte d’Ivoire". This is pretty strong evidence that it is the widely accepted English language name.

*]
:-"When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This often will be a local name, or one of them; but not always. If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. If neither of these English names exist, the modern official name, in articles dealing with the present, or the modern local historical name, in articles dealing with a specific period, should be used."
::-At the very least, the evidence clearly shows that usage is divided. The guideline states that we should use the official name (Côte d’Ivoire) in the absence of a widely accepted name.

*]
:-"If a native name is more often used in English sources than a corresponding traditional English name, then use the native name."
:-"If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local name."
::-This is in direct opposition to those who have argued that we should favour "Ivory Coast" because in their view it's ''real'' English. In fact, the guideline suggests that we should favour the local name (Côte d’Ivoire) in the absence of a widely accepted common name.

*]
:- "When there is evenly divided usage and other guidelines do not apply, leave the article name at the latest stable version."
::-Again, usage is clearly divided and the guideline suggests that we should keep the article at the stable version. ] (]) 04:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
***The average reader has probably only ever heard of Ivory Coast, if that even. Meanwhile, since you can't type the name with a normal keyboard, some redirects will be needed. "Coat Diver", for example. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 04:49, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
::::The redirects are already effective for anyone who prefers to type Ivory Coast, whether they know how to use their keyboards to type accented letters or not. ] (]) 04:54, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::So, you have no objections to my creating the ] redirect? Because I don't speak French, so I can't remember its French name. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 05:01, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

::::::Sorry but this is getting ridiculous all those points you've mentioned above can be used for the same argument for moving ] to ]. Same goes for moving ] to ]. In terms of official names then lets move ] to ] (the official name is Londonderry but ''Derry'' is more common). And regarding the media, it is overwhelmingly for Ivory Coast so there is no "fine line" there. Can we also consider a move from ] to ]? Since the later is both the official name, but not really used as much in the media (such as in the case of IC/CI) ] (]) 08:00, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::::That's in ] too: "Consult major news sources, either individually, or by using ], if accessible. If they agree in using a given name, it is widely accepted." And then there is this rule as well: "If a name is used in ''translating'' or explaining the official name, especially in texts addressed to an English-speaking audience, it is probably widely accepted." Here is Encarta: "<big>Côte d’Ivoire</big> (French for “Ivory Coast”)". We obviously can't follow all the NCGN rules. These rules don't exist just for their own sake anyway. They are tools to help us find the title that is recognizable to the most readers. ] (]) 00:20, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
{{discussion bottom}}

===Post-closure discussion===
<!-- because this is a very long talk page, it is useful to also put the notification of a move review discussion here, in case people miss it elsewhere -->
{{MRVdiscuss|date=2012 July 10}}

Sorry for not posting before but i would just like to say for the record i fully support the proposed move. It is very clear Ivory Coast is the name used in english language media more so wikipedia should reflect that. ] (]) 22:19, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
:That assertion has been pretty well refuted, or at least disputed. ] (]) 22:29, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
::This IDIDNTHEARIT stuff again? "Cote d'Ivoire" is the usage of the ''Economist'' and SABC, whereas "Ivory Coast" is used by CNN, AP, PBS, ''New York Times'', ''Wall Street Journal'', , '''', BBC, ''The Times'' of London, ''The Telegraph'', ''The Guardian'', and anyone else who wants to make sure that an English-speaking reader can figure out which country it is that they are talking about. ] (]) 23:10, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
::: Agreed. Now that the article has been correctly changed to the primary name of the country in English, what happens with the content. Should the french version of the name be changed to English in all of the content? for example.. " Côte d'Ivoire's first national census in 1975 counted 6.7 million inhabitants.". should that now read Ivory Coast? And if it does all need changing is someone going to volunteer to make all the changes sometime to avoid a large number of edit conflicts?] (]) 23:22, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
::::I do believe that normally that is what would be done. we had the same issue at ] some time back, with "elk" and "moose" being used interchangeably. We decided to explain that it is also called an elk by Europeans and then changed all instances of it to moose for consistency. Maybe one of our MOS experts out there can say whether there is an actual rule for that or not. (this comment is not to be construed as part of the close, the actual article content is outside the scope of that discussion, so just take it for what its worth) ] (]) 23:38, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
::::: Thanks Beeblebrox, will avoid making any changes then to see what people think. Also along with the use of the names within this article at some point associated articles will have to be considered, it would seem to make sense to try to bring them into line with this. So maybe in the next few days a Request move could be started on a page like ] to see if that can be changed too. ] (]) 23:56, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
::::::This move sets a dangerous precedent and evokes European colonialism, with no respect for African self determination/identification. Strong, but that is my opinion. The closing admin (User:Beeblebrox) state in their summary (above) : ''"...many of the sources that use Côte d'Ivoire are not journalistic sources but rather governments or NGOs. It would be impolitic of them to use Ivory Coast, but we do not need to worry about that."'' In that case then we have a lot to learn about respecting other cultures especially African culture in English Misplaced Pages. But since consensus appears to have been reached, there is no point dwelling on it. English Misplaced Pages has voiced its opinion through its editors and we just have to deal with it.] (]) 00:30, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
::::::: Far from evoking colonialism (''Côte-d'Ivoire'' was the name of the French colony, not Ivory Coast), this decision shows that English Misplaced Pages is not beholden to bureaucrats in Geneva or ] to determine English usage. — ] 02:34, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not surprised the people who wanted this article moved finally succeeded. They've been trying to do this fairly regularly for years. For the record a new process at ] to discuss if this was a proper close or not, and may attract some fresh eyes to see if the close was keeping in line with policy. ] 00:53, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
* I have significant issues with the supervote closure above, the supervote part of which is clearly exhibited by the "majority of people" bullet, as it is the closer's opinion on the subject and very much doesn't seem to be shown in the arguments in the actual discussion. I would have expected the closer to stick specifically to arguments actually represented in the discussion, considering the controversialness of it, and avoid having any personal opinion on the subject interfere in their closure. Unfortunately, the closer in this case has not done this and their personal opinion is very evident in their closure. <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 00:55, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

: just because some dislike the decision which addresses a problem that has existed with this article for years, it is no excuse for claims of european colonialism or questioning the closer of the request move. If people want someone to blame i suggest they blame the numerous media organisations who continue to use the English language version of this county, Ivory Coast. ] (]) 01:03, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
::There are just as many English language sources that use Cote d'Ivoire. This was already clearly pointed out multiple times in the discussion, yet the closer makes an argument in the bullet I point out above that is not made to any extent in the discussion. In fact, many of the supporters ignored the actual usage in the media and just commented that they hear of Ivory Coast more often or that they like that better. <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 01:07, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
::: Ivory Coast is the english language name of this country used by numerous english language sources. A country cannot dictate what is the commonname used for a country in a foreign language. The only thing close to "colonalism" on this subject that i have seen since the first time i entered this debate before is the attempt to impose a french language word on the English language. Cote d'Ivoire is just not the common English language name for this country. Im sorry. ] (]) 01:10, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
::: Yes, that was not a very convincing close decision. The admin appears to have made his decision purely on what users might type in the Misplaced Pages search box. Not only this argument hasn't been made by any of the support votes, but I'm not sure that this fact alone is enough to rename an article. Has a move review been opened yet (someone mentioned it above but couldn't find it)? ] (]) 07:27, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

::::Well now that the RM is over, can we start work on the article now?? :) ] (]) 07:56, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
:::::There was never anything stopping anyone from working on the article and a move discussion certainly doesn't mean editing must stop. I'm a little upset that I'm agreeing with SilverSeren, but this does look like a super vote. Arbitrarily deciding no consensus isn't viable isn't a good rationale for a close when clearly there was no consensus. I'm not terribly active these days but would be more than willing to participate if someone were to open a ]. ] 08:01, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
:::::: It is a shame that people can not accept a lengthy procedure has been gone through to get to this point and simply want to try and overturn the solution. This has come up many times in the past and been excessively debated because ivory coast is clearly the english language name used by most sources. In the past it ended with no consensus, over and over again, this time a very strong case was put by those who took part, with the case being looked at and accepted, rather than being swayed just by numbers. I fail to see how the closer has not followed the guidelines. ] (]) 08:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

First, ''bravo!'' to a brave and well-reasoned closing. I was dreading yet another pathetic "no consensus" decision, like those that plagued ] for nine years over at least eight RM proposals, until finally the article was properly moved. So, kudos to Beeblebrox, and ''thank you'' for explaining your reasoning so clearly. <p>Also, for the record, I must take issue with the claim above about the "majority of the people" paragraph that it represents ''"the closer's opinion on the subject and very much doesn't seem to be shown in the arguments in the actual discussion"''. The closer's paragraph is based on the argument that people ''"are more likely to be familiar with the term 'Ivory Coast.'"'' I made that essential point in my comments during the discussion when I wrote, ''"Any English speaker familiar with the country is going to recognize "Ivory Coast"; not all will recognize the French name."''. It's essentially the same point (and others made it, or at least alluded to it, too), and no one took issue with it in the discussion, so it's perfectly reasonable for it to be influential on the closing decision. --] (]) 21:06, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

== Draft content, as per the next section ==
{{divbox|brown||
=== Names ===
The name ''{{lang|fr|Côte d'Ivoire}}'' has its origins in the explorations by Portuguese and French merchants in the 15th and 16th centuries. They divided the West coast of Africa, very roughly, into five ''coasts'' reflecting local economies. The coast that the French named the ''{{lang|fr|Côte d'Ivoire}}'' and the Portuguese named the ''{{lang|pt|Costa do Marfim}}'' &mdash; both, literally, being "Ivory Coast" &mdash; lay between what was known as the ''{{lang|pt|Guin&eacute; de Cabo Verde}}'', so-called "Upper Guinea" next to ], and Lower Guinea. There were also a "Grain Coast", a "Gold Coast", and a "Slave Coast", and, like those three, the name "Ivory Coast" reflected the major trade that occurred on that particular stretch of the coast: the export of ivory. Other names for the coast included the ''{{lang|fr|Côte de Dents}}''{{#tag:ref|], in his 1755 ''Géographie historique, ecclésiastique et civile'', lists the name as ''{{lang|fr|La Côte des Dents}}'' ("The Coast of the Teeth") but notes that ''{{lang|fr|Côte de Dents}}'' is the more correct form.{{sfn|Vaissète|1755|p=185&ndash;186}}|group=n|name=teeths}}, literally "Teeth Coast", again reflecting the trade in ivory; the ''{{lang|fr|Côte de Quaqua}}'', after the people that the Dutch named the Quaqua (alternatively Kwa Kwa); the Coast of the Five and Six Stripes, after a type of cotton fabric also traded there; and the ''{{lang|fr|Côte du Vent}}'', the Windward Coast.{{sfn|Vaissète|1755|p=185&ndash;186}}{{sfn|Lipsky|2005|p=39}}{{sfn|Engerman|Gallman|1996|p=53&ndash;56}}{{sfn|Chisholm|1911|p=100}}{{sfn|Plée|1868|p=10}}{{sfn|Duckett|1853|p=594}}

One can find the name ''{{lang|fr|Cote de(s) Dents}}'' regularly used in older works. It was used in Duckett's ''Dictionnaire'' {{harv|Duckett|1853}} and by ], for examples, although ] used ''{{lang|fr|Côte d'Ivoire}}''. But in the 19th century it died out in favour of ''{{lang|fr|Côte d'Ivoire}}''. The modern state is, formally in international diplomatic protocol since April 1986, the Côte d'Ivoire and its government officially refuses to recognize or accept the Anglicization ''Ivory Coast'' in its international dealings. Its coastline isn't quite coterminous with what the 15th and 16th century merchants knew as the "Ivory" coast, which was considered to stretch from ] to ] and which is thus now divided between the modern states of Liberia and Côte d'Ivoire.{{sfn|Engerman|Gallman|1996|p=53&ndash;56}}{{sfn|Jessup|1998|p=351}}{{sfn|Homans|1858|p=14}}{{sfn|Lea|Rowe|2001|p=127}}{{sfn|Blanchard|1818|p=57}}{{sfn|Walckenaer|1827|p=35}} Despite the Ivorian government's request, &#91;&hellip;&#93;

=== Footnotes ===
<references group=n />
=== References ===
{{reflist|30em}}
{{refbegin}}
* {{cite book|ref=harv|last=Blanchard|first=Pierre|title=Le Voyageur de la jeunesse dans les quatre parties du monde|edition=5th|language=French|location=Paris|publisher=Le Prieur|year=1818}}
* {{cite encyclopaedia|article=Ivory Coast|encyclopedia=]|publisher=Encyclopaedia Britannica|edition=11th|editor1-first=Hugh|editor1-last=Chisholm|year=1911}}
* {{cite encyclopaedia|last=Duckett|language=French|article=Côte Des Dents|encyclopedia=Dictionnaire de la conversation et de la lecture inventaire raisonné des notions générales les plus indispensables à tous|volume=6|first=William|edition=2nd|location=Paris|publisher=Michel Lévy frères|year=1853}}
* {{cite book|ref=harv|title=The Cambridge Economic History of the United States|volume=1|editor1-first=Stanley L.|editor1-last=Engerman|editor2-first=Robert E.|editor2-last=Gallman|publisher=Cambridge University Press|year=1996|isbn=9780521394420}}
* {{cite encyclopaedia|ref=harv|last=Homans|article=Africa|encyclopedia=A cyclopedia of commerce and commercial navigation|volume=1|first=Isaac Smith|location=New York|publisher=Harper &amp; brothers|year=1858}}
* {{cite book|ref=harv|title=A Political Chronology of Africa|volume=4|series=Political Chronologies of the World|first1=David|last1=Lea|first2=Annamarie|last2=Rowe|publisher=Taylor &amp; Francis|year=2001|isbn=9781857431162|chapter=Côte d'Ivoire}}
* {{cite book|ref=harv|last=Lipski|title=A History of Afro-Hispanic Language: Five Centuries, Five Continents|first=John M.|publisher=Cambridge University Press|year=2005|isbn=9780521822657}}
* {{cite book|ref=harv|last=Plée|title=Peinture géographique du monde moderne: suivant l'ordre dans lequel il a été reconnu et decouvert|first=Victorine François|location=Paris|publisher=Pigoreau|year=1868|language=French|chapter=Côte des Dents o&ugrave; d'Ivoire}}
* {{cite book|ref=harv|last=Vaissète|language=French|title=Géographie historique, ecclesiastique et civile|volume=11|first=Jean Joseph|authorlink=Joseph Vaissète|location=Paris|publisher=chez Desaint &amp; Saillant, J.-T. Herissant, J. Barois|year=1755}}
* {{cite book|ref=harv|last=Walckenaer|title=Histoire générale des voyages ou Nouvelle collection des relations de voyages par mer et par terre|first=Charles-Athanase|location=Paris|publisher=Lefèvre|year=1827|language=French}}
{{refend}}
}}

== This is an encyclopaedia article, supposedly. ==
* {{diff|User talk:Jimbo Wales|500280186|500274369|"I'm someone who's ''all'' for diversity in names, but we don't and shouldn't use names according to some despot's personal preference."}} &mdash; ]
The above error in assumptions should prove a warning to all. When an "etymology" section in the encyclopaedia, such as ], has grown up clearly to bolster an interminable editing dispute rather than to inform the reader, it won't inform the reader. "Côte d'Ivoire" isn't a new name, contrary to the impression that reading our article gives. It didn't originate with the recent government, which simply pushed for its use, or even in the 20th century. It can be seen as far back as the 18th century. ] explained something about the name, and the alternative name ''Côte de Dents'' ("proprement dite") in his ''Géographie historique, ecclésiastique et civile'', published in 1755. (No, he didn't hyphenate either one.)<p>We have an article full of ''thinly disguised editorial argument'' about what the right English name should be, rather than an ''encyclopaedia'' article that lists the ''several'' names used for this geographic area, in English, French, and Portuguese at the very least, and ''explains'' them. There's historical context and knowledge to be reported here, that apparently no-one in this eight-year-long dispute has bothered with, because content comes second to a requested move dispute. Even the French Misplaced Pages does better than us, mentioning the Portuguese. We don't even manage to explain why these names are what they are, because we're so stuck on making lists in the article itself of who backs which side of the editing dispute. If editors were more interested in writing an encyclopaedia to be an encyclopaedia, rather than writing to win an editing dispute, we'd probably have an article from which readers could actually ''learn''.<p>] (]) 14:04, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
*Hey! Stop making sense like this, you'll spoil all the "fun". &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 14:40, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
*hear hear. thanks for the above. --] (]) 15:26, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
**I trimmed the section, moving most of the media usage stuff to a footnote. WE should add additional information about the origin of the name Ivory coast, and how its borders came to be defined in that way - Uncle G your help is welcome, especially with adding some of the old and real etymological material. --] (]) 17:36, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
***Something to start you off, ending where the second paragraph of the current section starts and with a suggestion for a better section heading, is now above. ] (]) 21:06, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
****Wow. that was fast. And good stuff. Much better than what was there previously. I actually learned something - vs reading about whether chinese media outlets used a given name... I'm all for it if you want to make those changes please go for it. cheers! --] (]) 21:41, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
***** Not so sure about the string of sources in each paragraph, but a massive improvement. ] (]) 12:33, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

== "Officially" ==

What does "officially" mean in ? If two possibilities are both said to be "official", what's the real official? The English-language version of the constitution gives the name of the country as, "Republic of Côte d’Ivoire", i.e. neither of them. This is a ] word that means nothing except, "Pay attention! The next word is important." ] (]) 09:17, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
: I would support the intro saying, '''Ivory Coast''' officially the '''Republic of Côte d’Ivoire'''. ] (]) 09:27, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
::That's fine with me; the wording is tricky, b/c the government has stated that the official name is Cote d'Ivoire, but the official full name is Republic of Cote d'Ivoire. But if it really irks editors to have two names in the title, then British Watcher's solution seems fine. I do note that many many articles (such as United Kingdom) have multiple bolded names in the first sentence. And ''officially'' is an incredibly common adjective in the first line of the sentence. I don't know why Kauffner is up in arms over it. Look at ], ], ], I could go on and on... --] (]) 12:10, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
:::It doesn't look like he's "up in arms" over it. He has stated guidelines that it should be limited to two names or it gets messy. "Policy" actually says that if there are , even if it's a simple spelling difference, they Must be present, but more than two should have a separate section to talk about it. As for officially, just pick one that everyone agrees is the most official by sourcing, and then handle all others (and the original two) in the name section below. That's the way it's supposed to be regardless of how other country articles do it. I would have it Ivory Coast and Cote d'Ivoire in the lead, where our readers get hit with the two most used choices right off the bat, but the official name up there at the top is ok too. ] (]) 17:54, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
For other country articles, the "officially" name is typically the one in the English-language version of the constitution. I don't care for this convention myself, and it isn't supported by any guideline. But if we can't stop the "officially" infestation, at least the word should be used same way here as it is in other similar articles. It should not be used in the sense of, "the name I wish was the title." ] (]) 19:57, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
:cote d'ivoire is the official, short-form version (see CIA world factbook for examplem or ). A country can have two "official" names. Also I don't know why you refer to the use of the word "officially" in probably 150 country articles as an infestation.--] (]) 23:55, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
::By that logic, the ] article should open, "'''Germany''', officially '''Germany'''". OK, everyone knows that Germany is "Germany". But there is a lot of confusion about which names are official for Greece and Ireland. This could be clarified with openings such as, "''']''', officially '''Greece'''," or "''']''', officially '''Ireland'''". As these examples show, even when opening in this format conveys useful information, it still looks unprofessional. Here it is just repetitious. If 150 articles do it a particular way, isn't that a reason to follow the same format here? ] (]) 02:57, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
:::Actually, on Ireland, I would support exactly that phrasing (given the location of the page), and even proposed it recently. However, the Irish editors are also very particular, and will not tolerate the article starting with anything but ''Ireland''. The rest of your examples don't' really move the discussion forward.--] (]) 03:21, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Folks, what cannot be omitted from the discussion is the term '']''. In short, the ] is a multiethnic country, and to get on top of the ethnic divisions, back then ] tried to unite the nations of his country under the banner of the shared French colonial heritage. With the civil war and the conflict between the poor Muslim Nort, including migrants from Mali and Burkina Faso anbd the better off Christian South this term has now take on a different slant, meaning "true" Ivoriens united against economic refugees. But Ivoirité remains, hence the insistence that the country be called by its French name. Note that Foreign Offices all over the world follow this usage. Now Misplaced Pages doesn't, and it's reasonable to assume that that is because it's out of ignorance. ] (]) 23:41, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

:''Misplaced Pages'' doesn't have an opinion; it's a dynamic that ends in a reflection of the current consensus of a set of editors. The name was proposed to be changed 6 or 7 times in the history of this article, each time leading to no consensus. At last, it was overturned, but even that decision is likely to be questioned at a move review. So the story is not over.--] (]) 23:55, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

If someone has given a reason not to follow ], I missed it: "Once such a section <nowiki></nowiki> or paragraph is created, '''the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line.''' As an exception, a local official name different from a widely accepted English name should be retained in the lead." By my count, that means one English-language name in the opening (Ivory Coast), plus the local language official name (''République de Côte d'Ivoire''). Putting "Côte d'Ivoire" twice in same sentence is also poor style. ] (]) 05:40, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
*Since "Côte d'Ivoire" is the diplomatic name, ''République de Côte d'Ivoire'' is the local language constitutional name, and "Republic of Côte d'Ivoire" the English-language constitutional name, any of these can be considered "the official name". The word is a empty vessel and tells the reader nothing. ] (]) 03:34, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
::Cote d'Ivoire is the official english short-form version of the name, period. I don't know what ''diplomatic name'' means - did you just make that up? --] (]) 03:44, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
:::What happened to using the ] article as a model? That article opens, "'''Germany''' ({{IPAc-en|audio=En-uk-Germany.ogg|ˈ|dʒ|ɜr|m|ə|n|i}}), officially the '''Federal Republic of Germany'''". ] (]) 05:36, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

== Name section ==
To the people letting this spill over into the "Name" section of the article: You need to ''read'' the encyclopaedia, not write it. That section ''really is'' talking about the name ''{{lang|fr|Côte d'Ivoire}}'' as used by French-speaking merchants in the 15th and later centuries. Your back and forth over the article title and lead is one thing. Making the explanation of the names and how they developed ''incorrect'' is quite another. The French-speaking merchants ''spoke French''. ] (]) 22:26, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
:I agree wholeheartedly. The section (added recently by Uncle G btw) does a great job of explaining where the name came from, but as he notes, the initial name given by europeans was a french one.--] (]) 22:30, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
::Well, but the section talks equally about French and Portuguese explorers - it doesn't say which came first. And English writers used "Ivory Coast" at least as early as 1691 - see . It is an excellently written section - I just think it is appropriate for it to match the article title - whatever that title is. ] (]) 22:36, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
:::That's a foolish idea. It doesn't talk about ''English'' explorers, and what it's talking about is specifically the name ''{{lang|fr|Côte d'Ivoire}}'', as well as the other names. Don't sacrifice correctness for some idiosyncratic idea of style. ] (]) 22:45, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
::::I removed the offending phrase. See what you think of the rewording. ] (]) 22:50, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
:::::That was a bad idea too. You've made things worse, since now the encyclopaedia doesn't explain that that's the ''origin''. There's no actual "offending phrase" here, at all, only some foolish editors who think that a title/lead dispute should spill over into prose that is actually about a specific French name, ''several'' French names indeed, rendering that prose either incorrect or incomplete. ] (]) 23:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
::::::I think if you re-read the first two sentences, they make perfect sense given that they come directly under the heading "Names". I'd love to hear what other editors think, though. ] (]) 23:19, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
:::::::I for one agree with Uncle G on this. The whole thing was driven by a desire to change all Cote d'ivoire to ivory coast w/o thinking much about the implications. Your subsequent redrafting has not improved things; the sentence was perfectly fine as it was.--] (]) 23:35, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::And I agree with Dohn. The original motivation for the change is irrelevant. What matters is the result. The fact is that the area was called "ivory coast" in whatever language was being used to refer to it at the time because of the ivory trade there. It doesn't matter that it was mostly French and so mostly/usually literally ''Côte d'Ivoire''. Portuguese references were ''Costa do Marfim'' and ''English'' references, when they were made, were ''Ivory Coast''. This section is about how and why that area got that name. <p>Like I said in my edit summary comments, we use the modern English "Moscow" (rather than "Moskva" or "Москва") in the ] about that city. Similarly, we should use the modern English spelling of this topic in this section, as reflected in the title.<p>As a point of comparison, I note no similar references to ''Côte d'Ivoire'' on the . --] (]) 02:40, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
::::::::Moscow is an exonym but Côte d'Ivoire is an endonym. See ] ] (]) 09:38, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
*I,would like to suggest that everyone calm down and take a few days to discuss things before the page name dispute morphs into a full-blown content dispute/edit war. To male it easier for you all to do that I have protected the page for two days. ] (]) 22:55, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Of course the name used in the running text should correspond to the title. I am astonished that anyone would dispute this. Does the name issue really need to be re-argued for each and every section of the article? Even with economic statistics, you could play this same game: "That's a UN stat for Côte d'Ivoire! It is ] for Wiki to claim that the GDP figure for Ivory Coast is the same." ] (]) 07:54, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

==Move review==

A move review has been started there: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2012_July_10 ] (]) 05:04, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

{{editprotected|answered=yes}}

Since a move review was started, the template {{tl|mrv}} should be added at the top of the article page ], per ] step 4. — ] (]) 05:43, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

:{{done}}. ] (]) 06:40, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

:: Although that message tells people the page can be edited yet it is in fact fully protected so may confuse people a bit. ] (]) 06:43, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
h== The proper name of place or people is not supposed to be translated ==
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''


The result of the move request was: <s>'''MOVED''' as proposed. Opposition to the move fell into basically three camps.
Who says it's fine to translate Côte d'Ivoir into Ivory Coast? The proper name helps the people easily recognize who or where that object is. So why would you guy translate the proper name into a definitely different pronunciation? Would you want your own name to be changed when you arrived to a foreign country?] (]) 06:29, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
:What about Germany and ''Deutschland''? Perhaps China should be moved to ''Zhongguo'' or even 中国. ] (]) 06:43, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
:Yeah it's crazy! translating names like that. (see in other wikis! : , , . Why are these wikis translating and redirecting? ] (]) 07:10, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


1. "Ivory Coast is more common in English!" In the face of convincing ngram evidence for Cote D'Ivoire, absolutely '''no evidence whatsoever''' was cited for this claim. It was summarily discarded, then.
You can write the proper name of any foreign object in your native language but you are not supposed to make change to its own pronunciation. Ex: Côte D'Ivoir can be written in english as : Cote de Voir; Chinese : 古德涡。 Vietnamese :Cốt Đi Voa. I am a trilingual of those languages and I know how to write the name in those language without altering its own pronunciation. How would you legally change the other people or place's name? If your name was John, (also means restroom), would you want the Chinese to call you 洗手间( xi shou jian) when you arrived to China?
It's very absurd to translate proper name into another language! <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 08:56, 11 July 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


2. "Ivory Coast is the English name!" Users such as Ajax were correct in saying things like "Misplaced Pages routinely uses the most common English name despite the wishes of those in power." However, as referenced above, the only evidence we have shows that Cote d'Ivoire is the most common name for the country in English. The first sentence of WP:UE reads: "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources". Ajax and others' arguments, therefore, aren't so much ''wrong'' as they are ''tautological''. If Ivory Coast is the English name, it should be the title, but that's not something you can just assume to be true! That's the whole thing we're discussing!
The specific person or place should have the uni-calling sound to their name, If each country had their own way of calling a specific person or place, then the world would have countless name and people would get crazy with this. ] (]) 09:12, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
::The issue here is not if Côte d'Ivoir gets translated into English but if it gets used in the English language, which it does. There are many cases of non-English places having an English exonym (Munich or Moscow) which trumps the official name as that one is rarely used in English language literature. In relativly unkown places on the other hand we don't make up translations or use rarely used ones. In fact many exonyms are only used in historic context. The issue here is different as CdI gets used in English high quality sources the argument is which English usage shall take preverence. If the MR does not fix the current situation we most likely have to move to Ivory Coast (country) as the area traditionally called Ivory Coast is larger than the country. ] (]) 09:30, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


3. "Cote d'Ivoire is hard to type!" As noted below, ] exist.


All in all, pretty cut-and-dried. {{rmnac}} ] ] 06:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)</s>
: Ivory Coast is the commonname of this country in the English language, however apparently that sort of thing nolonger matters on this place and we must worry about being seen as colonialists and be sensitive to government opinions among other things so the article name may be changed back. ] (]) 09:34, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
:The above closure was overturned to '''no consensus''' at ]. ] (]) 03:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
----
] → {{no redirect|Côte d'Ivoire}} – It has overtaken Ivory Coast per ngrams () and should be used per ]. This is also the official name of the country, and the government has requested it is used over Ivory Coast , although that is of little value per ].] (]) 22:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)


*'''Oppose''' A quick search of both terms shows me that Ivory Coast is more common among highly reputable English language media companies. ] (]) 13:43, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
: And yes i suggest people go and look at the foreign language wikipedias.. and see what names they use to title articles such as the United States of America, United Kingdom etc. They put those names in their own language, rather than our English language. its also strange that if you look at the foreign langguage wikis for ivory coast, many do not put the French language name, they put it in their own. The country's government can dictate what the official country name is, but it has no right to impose a french word on the english language. Im sorry but Côte d'Ivoire (which i cant even type on my keyboard) is NOT an English language word, no matter what appeasers say it is. ] (])
::The convention is to use ngrams, and it shows Côte d’Ivoire has overtaken Ivory Coast in English media ] (]) 13:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
:::The convention is also to use English. We don't call Japan Nippon or Nihon. ] (]) 13:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
::::We would if Ngrams showed English media used Nippon more often than Japan, but they don’t ] (]) 13:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
::::If the country is called "Côte d'Ivoire" in English, then it's English...--] (]) 18:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::It is not... ngrams are not the only yardstick whether it's current , , , , , , even the . Both terms get used formally but colloquially it's Ivory Coast. ] (]) 18:47, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::Ngrams is how we measure commonality, individual surveys are advised against per ]. Respectfully, you're denying clear evidence and convention. ] (]) 18:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::Please see ], {{tq|The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively).}} ] (]) 19:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::::It is one of the ways, but there are many problems with it. It is certainly not clear evidence. ] (]) 07:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I disagree ] (]) 09:58, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::Some that use Cote d'Ivoire:
::::::* Britannica
::::::* UN
::::::* Ground News
::::::* The Independent
::::::* Amnesty International
::::::* Gov.uk
::::::* World Bank
::::::* CIA Factbook
::::::* IMF
::::::* Human Rights Watch
::::::] (]) 18:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::US gov also uses Cote d'Ivoire , just citing the department of agriculture is misleading ] (]) 19:06, 29 June 2024 (UTC)


:::::::And some that use the English translation of Ivory Coast
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:::::::*BBC uses both terms , and
:::::::There is no shortage of Ivory Coast users. ] (]) 23:28, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::::And I’m not saying Ivory Coast isn’t used. This is about what is used '''predominantly''' per ] ] (]) 08:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::And I'm not saying that French Cote d'Ivoire isn't used, but the translation of English Ivory Coast is used more. ] (]) 09:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Can you provide evidence for that? ] (]) 09:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::I did above... did you not see them? ] (]) 09:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::Again, I don’t think that makes a strong case considering I matched it with equally notable sources ] (]) 09:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per WP:COMMONNAME in the English speaking world, Ivory Coast is still the name of choice. I don't see that anything has really changed. ] (]) 00:20, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
::Per ngrams Côte d'Ivoire is used more often '''in english media''' ] (]) 00:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
:::Not media.... books! Ngram books. There is so much more than what ngrams show. Newspapers and universities and heaps of other items show other leanings. ] (]) 09:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom.--] (]) 18:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. The official name "Republic of Côte d'Ivoire, Côte d'Ivoire for short" is used more than Ivory Coast, as well as the government's preference to use the former than the latter. WP:COMMON would support the official name instead of the original per Ngrams. --<span style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:100%;color:#00008B;background-color:transparent;;CSS">]]</span> 20:17, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support (strongly)''' per reasons listed by nominator, etc. <small>] (])</small> 01:09, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per ngrams results of Alexanderkowal. — ''Côte d'Ivoire'', with or without diacritics, is more common than ''Ivory Coast'' name since approximately 2004. –] (]]) 06:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Unnecessarily complicated French name for an English-language Misplaced Pages, where Ivory Coast is perfectly "COMMON". ] (]) 10:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
*:Côte d’Ivoire is used more commonly in English media therefore it is English, just like coup d’etat and cafe are English ] (]) 11:05, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
*::No it is not. ngrams never tell the whole story. ] (]) 18:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::? I'm really struggling to understand your opposition. Ngrams is what is conventionally used. What is special about this particular case that means we should avoid convention, and can you please refer to policy where possible? ] (]) 18:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
*::::And I'm struggling on where the heck you came up with Wikpedia uses google ngrams and nothing else. That has never been convention at Misplaced Pages. It is one tool we use. ] (]) 09:18, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::::Can you give another tool we use that carries similar weight? We’ve provided a plethora of sources that use one or the other, which hasn’t really made a case for either. In doubt, ngrams shifts the scale towards Côte d’Ivoire, provided the user issues are satisfied ] (]) 09:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::::My impression is that ngrams holds decisive weight when assessing commonality ] (]) 09:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Then your impression is wrong. It holds weight, like many sources do. But a book search is not decisive. ] (]) 09:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree because I’ve often seen ngrams used as the only arbitrator for commonality, and I don’t think us listing sources one for one makes a strong case for either, or is a good use of time ] (]) 09:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::And I've often seen ngrams ripped to shreds here, and I've been here a long time. But I agree we are stuck in a loop where we have to agree to disagree. ] (]) 09:58, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per ]. Ivory Coast is English and Côte d’Ivoire is French, no matter how many times the French name is used in English-language publications. Our policy prefers English for article titles. It is irrelevant that governments prefer the use of the French-speaking country's French name (see also ]). It is of course important that Côte d’Ivoire appear prominently in the lead as well as being a redirect. ] (]) 21:33, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
*:The policies you've cited contradict your position. From ] {{tq|The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively).}}
*:Cote d'Ivoire predominates in English-language reliable sources therefore it should be used. I've shown evidence it does predominate using convention, and nobody's shown evidence it doesn't. ] says nothing to contradict this move. ] (]) 21:40, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
*::You are citing ], not ], which starts two paragraphs further up and clearly states as its first sentence "On the English Misplaced Pages, article titles are written using the English language." Your quote from WP:UE is just getting into details about spelling and anglicization of proper names like Kierkegaard's. Both "ivory" and "coast" are common English words, however, with only one spelling in English. Whether or not Cote d'Ivoire predominates or is "official" is irrelevant because it is clearly French. ] (]) 22:46, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::This comes from a misunderstanding of how language works. If a word, regardless of its origin, is used predominantly in English then '''it is English'''. Coup d’etat and cafe are English words regardless of their origin. ] (]) 08:45, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*::::^ as the policy says ] (]) 08:53, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*::::That is incorrect. Cafe, in the sense of a small restaurant, is indeed an English word of French origin. The French word café is a different word that translates as "coffee". Coup d'état has no English equivalent ("stroke of state" is never used). Côte d'Ivoire, on the other hand, is simply French for Ivory Coast. ] (]) 12:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::::Lots of ]s have translations in English, it isn't incorrect, this is how language works. Admittedly there are few examples I can recall of a foreign term overwhelming its English translation in usage but I'm sure there have been many. There are certainly lots of English translations overwhelming German words in German. ] (]) 12:16, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::::Neither of us are experts in language, we should wait for someone with a better understanding ] (]) 12:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Do you assume that just because you disagree with me? It is impossible to tell who is or is not an "expert" on WP, so ], usually a bad idea, are especially worthless on WP, where every editor is anonymous and every argument must stand purely on its own merits. ] (]) 18:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::And I don't think either of our arguments stand on their own merit. I'm just asking someone with a better understanding that could enlighten us, obviously we can still scrutinise, but there's considerable nuance to this that I don't think either of us grasp ] (]) 18:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::You might very well be right, but it would contradict what I've heard people say. I'm not sure how to research this either ] (]) 18:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::::I've asked at ] ] (]) 12:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::::It absolutely is correct. It's part of English because English-speakers use it when speaking English. They might also use "Ivory Coast" sometimes, but that doesn't mean "Cote d'Ivoire" is not English either. ] (]) 22:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per what will yield the best results for research for our readers and what English language readers can type into a keyboard.<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 21:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
*:I'm not knowledgeable about this side of things, butsurely if Ivory Coast is put as an alternative name it still comes up to the same degree? At the moment, if I search Cote d'Ivoire via google, the article for Ivory Coast comes up first, wouldn't it be the same the other way around? I think having Ivory Coast and Cote d'Ivoire as redirects solves this issue. Lots of wikipedia articles have accents and diacritics ] (]) 21:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
*:And with some titles, like Germany/Deutchland, Japan/Nippon, they are fully different names. Ivory Coast is the English translation of Côte d'Ivoire... they mean the same thing but one is English and one is French. ] (]) 23:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
*::Again this comes from a misunderstanding of how English works. If a word, regardless of its origin, is used predominantly in English, then '''it is english''' ] (]) 08:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
* '''Support''' I think the shift has tipped to using Côte d'Ivoire. I note in particular that the Chicago Manual of Style says look for country names to the CIA World Fact Book (Côte d'Ivoire), Britannica (Côte d'Ivoire), U.S. Board on Geographic Names which in turn points to the Geographic Names Server (Côte d'Ivoire). In the UK, the permanent committee on geographic names states "Ivory Coast is the usual country name in the English language and can be used for internal HMG and UK domestic purposes. Côte d’Ivoire should be used for all correspondence and relations with the country itself. Côte d’Ivoire should also be used in correspondence with international organizations, such as the United Nations" (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65006d9557e884000de12980/Ivory_Coast_factfile.pdf). Note the 'can' for domestic use which implies author's choice but 'should' for international use which means use Côte d'Ivoire in such cases. Australian government seems to use Côte d'Ivoire except in old documents though in at least one place has "Côte d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast)". India seems to use "Cote d'Ivoire ". A search on google scholar since 2020 seems to show 22,100 for "Côte d’Ivoire" and 17,400 for "Ivory Coast" (524 had both, admittedly these numbers are estimates but it does seem to show a preference now for "Côte d’Ivoire"). :] (]) 23:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
*:All governments will use Côte d'Ivoire, as will many official bodies, because it is the official name. I am not sure how a source saying "Ivory Coast is the usual country name in the English language" can support the move, and I am surprised the PCGN uses "Ivory Coast". ] (]) 01:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*::My guess is that the PCGN is dealing with some very conservative people in the government and are probably waiting for them to retire (or lose the election). I would say scholarly works also have moved to Côte d'Ivoire. I wanted to see what K-12 schools might be using so went to look at the National Geographic "World for Kids Map" which uses Côte d'Ivoire as does Britannica Kids Atlas https://kids.britannica.com/kids/browse/atlas ] (]) 02:20, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:Here's the thing, the instead of Myanmar. They have to take official positions when dealing with these countries and the politics involved. Yet the article is at Myanmar, not Burma. We don't always go by the CIA factbook... sometimes yes and sometimes no. PCGN uses "Myanmar (Burma)", but again we don't follow that either. We use what is commonly used in English. ] (]) 04:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*::Myanmar is the official name, not Burma. <span style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:100%;color:#00008B;background-color:transparent;;CSS">]]</span> 04:11, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::We don't go by official names, we don't go by CIA names, we don't go by PCGN names, and never have. That's what I'm saying. ] (]) 04:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*::::You’re right, we go by what ngrams says, and it says Côte d’Ivoire is predominantly used. What are you suggesting we go by? ] (]) 08:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::::We absolutely do not! Ngrams have been shown time and time again to be deceptive. Where in the world would you get that that's all we go by? They are one set of tools we use. Google ngrams only do books... not newspapers, not websites, not university teachings, not your average joe on the street, not magazines, not blogs, not tv news, not radio, not a lot of things. It is useful but it's only one thing to look at. ] (]) 09:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*::::::That contradicts my firm impression. Can you give some of the other tools used that carry similar weight? ] (]) 09:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::If the one dimensional "book" ngrams of google is all we went by this place would look very different. ] (]) 09:35, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::Please can you answer the question ] (]) 09:37, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::Why do you think I listed a whole heap of sources that tell you otherwise? For my health? We use sources and consensus here... ngram books are one source we use but there are hundreds of other sources. ] (]) 09:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::And I listed some sources that use Côte d’Ivoire, I don’t that makes a strong case for either side ] (]) 09:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::::You may be right that sources could be split on the subject. There could be an endless parade of sources on both sides. That would be a reason to keep it where it is. And your posting also said it's the official name of the country, and the government has requested it be used over Ivory Coast. You know how much weight that carries here?... zero. Absolutely nothing. ] (]) 09:55, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::::It was more to give reasoning for the change in use. ] goes by commonality ] (]) 10:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per ngrams results, which shows that Côte d'Ivoire has become the most common name in English usage over the past decade.
:Beyond usage in books, it's also the name used by , and other common references, so readers would expect to see it likewise listed here under that name.
:I'd also point out that ] states that the local name should be used if there is no widely accepted common name in English, so even if we agree that English usage is split, clearly Ivory Coast is not the widely accepted name and so we should defer to the local name. ] (]) 23:49, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' the use of a colonial-era name that is not ] ] name for the country. From South Korea to East Timor and Brunei to Vietnam, Misplaced Pages routinely uses the most common English name despite the wishes of those in power. A perusal of the actual Ngram results (not just the numbers) shows a plethora of UN documents which necessarily follow the diktat of Ivorian authorities. Misplaced Pages is not a diplomatic manual, but a general encyclopedia, and as such should adhere to the ] and use the common, English name. — ] 06:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
*:Both names are colonial era ] (]) 08:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)


:* '''Comment''': ] says:
::I recommend reading ]. And as far as the English language is concerned there isn't really an English language, everything in it has been stolen from other languages. ] (]) 09:52, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
:{{tq|When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be identical in form to the local name (as with Paris or Berlin), but in many cases it will differ (Germany rather than Deutschland, Rome rather than Roma, Hanover rather than Hannover, Meissen rather than Meißen). If a native name is more often used in English sources than a corresponding traditional English name, then use the native name. Two examples are Livorno and Regensburg, which are now known more widely under their native names than under the older English names "Leghorn" and "Ratisbon".}} ] (]) 17:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
::: Ivory Coast is the english language name of this country, it is not the official name, it is the commonname which is what wikipedia is meant to go by. Most articles are not at their official names on wikipedia and many are at completely different ones, such as ] and ]. ] (]) 11:20, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''': the ngram Kowal2701 posted is limited to books. Other media do not show the same pattern. My own news search returned a lot of official-type sources using the French form, but the general news agencies (AP, Reuters) using the English form. In general, news stories targeted at the general public use Ivory Coast. --] (]) (]) 11:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
:::: We are not obliged to use the "Official" name here just because it's official, same thing goes for the ] article. --] (]) 20:34, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
*:Other encyclopedias like Britannica, New World Encyclopedia, CIA Factbook, encyclopedia.com, Oxford Research Encyclopedia etc. all use Cote d'Ivoire ] (]) 13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
*::You know, you COULD just let each person make their comment and not go badgering everyone. Let the positions be stated and then start a new section where you can argue all your points instead of dumping them all over everything. This would keep points from being discussed in multiple places. --] (]) (]) 13:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
*:::Good point, that's what I should've done, my bad ] (]) 13:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose, for now''' Government agencies prefer 'Côte d'Ivoire', but English publications targeted to the general English public prefer 'Ivory Coast'. This English Misplaced Pages article is targeted to the general English public, so should use what the general English public is most likely to search for. I make a note that the use of 'Côte d'Ivoire' is growing, but is not used enough in reliable English sources (targeted to the general reader) to establish it as the ]. Misplaced Pages is not a ], but I can see this discussion being reopened as the usage of the proposed title increases. ] (]) 13:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
*For future RM discussions, nom should heed ], which notes that Google does not index all sources or even a representative sample, and ], specifically: {{tq|Tools that {{em|may}} help to support the determination of a primary topic in a discussion (but are <u>not considered absolute determining factors, due to unreliability, potential bias, and other reasons</u>) include Usage in ] demonstrated with Google }} (underline mine, italics original). The sloppiness of in the opening of this RM after so many previous ones severely disappints me. ] (] '''·''' ]) 05:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
*:Sorry, I wasn’t aware of that policy. I’ve just seen ngrams used as a determiner so wrongly assumed that would be the case be here ] (]) 06:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
*:Is there a place that policy is collated into a sort of book with chapters? I only become aware of it after making a mistake and someone cites it ] (]) 07:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
*Comment on ngrams: In this case, ngrams results are significantly affected by OCR errors and other quirks, as Dohn joe noted at the ]. See including variations for l (lowercase L) and i, as well as ô and o, and space or no space in between d'. In particular, many were incorrectly transcribed as "lvoire" with a lowercase L; however, that mistake largely stops showing up after around 2010. The interpretation is debatable. I would say that Côte d'Ivoire probably gained in prevalence at an even earlier time than other commenters above believed, but also the pre-2010 portion of the ngrams results are probably less reliable than the more recent portion. ] (]) 05:19, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Conducting the same search conducted in the 2012 RM suggests that the common name remains "Ivory Coast". ] (]) 18:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as per Google NGrams, as pointed out. ] (]) 21:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per reasonably common usage above, and given that "Ivory Coast" as a name is potentially somewhat ambiguous and generic. ] ] 00:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;" class=></div>
=== Post-move review ===
{{for|the actual move review discussion|Misplaced Pages:Move review/Log/2024 July#Côte d'Ivoire (closed)}}
*{{ping|Red Slash}} You have to be frigging kidding me... there is no consensus to change this at all! ngram has all sorts of issues as was pointed out, and heaps was shown how common Ivory Coast is. I listed many and could have filled the talk page with more. The only thing on the side of Côte d'Ivoire was the ngram on books which is limited as pointed out in the discussion and prior discussions. This is one of the worst closes I've ever see. I can see it closing as Ivory Coast or even no consensus... but I'm actually shocked at this close. And it was still quite active with three people giving answers just today. ] (]) 06:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)


:Yes, this is a candidate for review. ] (]) 08:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
@ BritishWatcher,
::I was just in a review on a different topic that I'm still amazed at, so sorry if I'm not optimistic in the review process here anymore. As long as a closer is sincere, reviews are stomped on regardless of poor closings. ] (]) 08:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
In many cases many foreign languages are anglicized for easy spelling and calling because sometimes their alphabets are so uniquely uncommon that we are unable to read such as Chinese, Tibet, Cambodian, Korean...That's why they must be anglicized. I wouldn't force you to type French characters or any foreign characters like Cambodian, Bangladesh,...to indicate their names, but the issue here is that we are supposed to anglicize them but not translate them. Why wouldn't the flower "Dent De lion" be called "teeth of Lion" in English but Dendelion? In english there are no symbols like Frence, so we can type Cote De Ivoir, what on earth would matter? ] (]) 09:13, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
:::I agree that this should be reopened, although I can see why they came to that decision ] (]) 08:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
: We should not have to type cote d'ivoir and we certainly should not have to try and type something that is not even possible on our keyboard,, it highlights why this is not the right name to be using for the English language wiki. it is not the just the case that ivory coast is the translation of the french name, its the english language name for the country, known for decades and remaining the common name for the country. Go and look at some foreign language wikipedias, you will see many dont put the french spelling of this country, intead they translate it to their own language. And that applies to most country. we wont find "United Kingdom" or "United States" on many foreign language wikipedias because they use their own language translations. Thats the whole point of these different wikis existing. I fail to see why the English speaking world should have to deal with a french language name we cant even type correctly. and for many people they re surprised to see the french name on here, it has to be one of the few exceptions and the change that has taken place was a good one. ] (]) 09:21, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
::If you want to read an article about a foreign subject but your keyboard doesn't have the right letters, that's exactly what we have redirects for. Redirects are cheap. ] (]) 09:32, 12 July 2012 (UTC) ::::Tbh I would understand if the result is no consensus, regardless I’ve conducted myself very poorly and don’t really deserve it tbh ] (]) 10:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|Kowal2701}} it's all a learning curve, and you conducted the discussion in good faith, which is the most important thing. As noted, in future you should avoid trying to reply to every single comment made, as that is usually regarded as ]ing and/or "badgering" of those with whom you don't agree. One or two replies is fine, but otherwise everyone is entitled to their opinion. Anyway, you'll know for next time! Personally I think the above discussion should have been closed as "no consensus" - the !vote count was roughly equal, and good points were made on both sides - particularly given that the ] situation doesn't seem clear cut. The slight lead enjoyed by Côte d'Ivoire in book sources is offset by evidence of Ivory Coast usage in media sources. It's a lot closer than it was 10–15 years ago though and, assuming the move isn't made now, I can definitely foresee it being made a few years from now. &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;] (]) 11:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::Thank you, no consensus might be the best decision, with a future turning point possibly being use by mainstream media ] (]) 11:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I agree that no consensus is the best option. The thing is, Misplaced Pages uses common name over official name. Yes, the government asks (almost) every country to only be called by its endonym, but media outlets still refer to this by its exonym. Think about why Kiev remained that way until 2020 even though it may have been the official name since at least 1995. But for this, its originally been known (in Misplaced Pages) by its French name, but has since renamed to its English name in July 2012.
:::::::Maybe its time to open a ] which is why this talk should have taken place at ] instead of here. ] (]) 15:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
:I wrote quite a lot about why there's a consensus to move. What did you disagree with? Only one side actually presented evidence, and it honestly was quite overwhelming. ] ] 06:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
:I should clarify--one user did provide a list of several organizations that use Ivory Coast. However, that's literally what we have aggregators like ngrams for: so that instead of various people saying things like "look, I found a site that says X" and another person being like "hey I found a site that says Y", we can aggregate ALL of them together and see which one is more common. Obviously you can find ''some'' sources for either name, but the overall most common name was clearly proven to be the one that I can't type on my keyboard. ] ] 06:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
::Overwhelming???? And when is 14 several? ngrams are only one small aspect. You seem to be taking them as some sort of cure-all, and that has never been the case. And that was pointed out here multiple times. ngrams are only books that googles uses. ngram usage has been used in past discussions but their limitations were outweighed by so many other sources still using Ivory Coast. I had no idea that a closer would actually take that as the only evidence to switch titles. Sorry but it's unsettling to say the least. It takes no press, no tv, no newsprint, no universities, no radio, etc. into account. Sure we use it as one source but the counter arguments here were even more powerful and out-numbering. Plus 3 people had just entered their reponses the day you closed, so still very active to boot. ] (]) 06:39, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
:::Side note - Google translates/converts the title to English...thus for many nothing has changed. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 13:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
::::LOL... so those who need it translated to English can still see it as the English name of Ivory Coast. Otherwise we get to read it in French. ] (]) 18:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::@] "Côte d'Ivoire" significantly outperforms "Ivory Coast" on Google Trends as well: , and it still outperforms if you restrict it to any English-speaking country, too. ] (]) 19:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::The problem is it is limited by what google stores. And In United States and United Kingdom (two huge English speaking nations) it's . But ngrams are not the determining factor in these discussions. Most of those in favor pretty much rest on saying "because of ngrams." Do you realize the change of wikipedia if we based everything on ngrams only? There are heaps of Misplaced Pages articles that have 100% to 0% in English ngrams yet the article gained consensus for the 0%. ngrams are one aspect of gaining consensus, but not the only aspect. People also search for terms they have no idea about (which is what Google Trends is)... it could be "what the heck is a Côte d'Ivoire" and when they search it comes up Ivory Coast and they go "Oh it's the same as Ivory Coast." ] (]) 20:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::@] I'm not sure why you've limited it to news. If you change it to "all categories" you can see that "Côte d'Ivoire" is consistently in the lead (), and it's more pronounced in the US ().
:::::::{{pb}}
:::::::This isn't NGrams, either - it's Google Trends, which is based on what people search for on Google; a completely different metric, which means that we now have two quite persuasive pieces of evidence that Côte d'Ivoire is in the lead, and dismissing it on the basis that people are probably Googling one term more because they don't know what it is seems very naive. ] (]) 20:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::::But we know from ] it is never as straight forward as that. People search for items they know nothing about. They know Ivory Coast so don't search for it. Of course they search for Côte d'Ivoire since they haven't a clue if it's a dessert or a country. Do you think people search for terms they know? We have so many articles at places where the ngrams are non-existent. ] (]) 20:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::::You are comparing the search term Ivory Coast to the topic Cote d'Ivoire. Apples to oranges. When you make both of themsearch terms, Ivory Coast leads by quite a bit. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=Ivory%20Coast,C%C3%B4te%20d%27Ivoire&hl=en-GB
::::::::In fact, if you look at the country by country breakdowns for the last 5 years, the only places where Cote d'Ivoire leads are 1) French speaking countries and 2) Italy. Ivory Coast reachs 90%+ in all major English speaking countries (US, UK, Ireland, AUS, NZ, even South Africa and India) except Canada.--] (]) (]) 20:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
*I did not participate in this RM, but the close most certainly needs to be overturned to '''no consensus'''. English Misplaced Pages is consensus-based and main title headers of major entries, such as country names, should have overwhelming consensus and should be overwhelmingly used in media, as in the case of Ukrainian city names ] and ], formerly known in English by transliterations of their Russian names ] and ]. The ] / ] naming is analogous to another long-running country naming dispute — ] / ]. The expected overwhelming consensus in favor of renaming is missing in both cases — here, there were 17 votes, with nine votes opposed to the change and eight votes in favor of using "Côte d'Ivoire". Clearly, no consensus.&nbsp;—] <small>] • ]</small> 18:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
*:I agree but bear in mind per ] consensus is ascertained by the quality of arguments given, not saying mine made were better ] (]) 19:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
{{od}} I opened a formal move review at ]. These things rarely seem to go anywhere but it is the next step in the process. Even involved editors can comment on whether the close was proper or not. ] (]) 08:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)


== Pronunciation again ==
@Kauffner,


Since we seem to keep having this problem: just like the word ] is pronounced differently in French. American English, and British English, so is Cote d'Ivoire. And we need to show that in the article. --] (]) (]) 00:06, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
This has to be re-examined to see which etymological name was invented first. I don't think the cognomen Germany has anything to do with Deutchsland in respect of meaning, neither is it a translation nor does germany have any certain definition. In this case I strongly believe that the people called it Germany because of the impression of something memorable such as a name of a King, historic event at the age when the name of this nation hadn't been stably united. Maybe the name germany derived from another ancient language. Then later after the stable settlement the germans gained stability from everythings and the new founder or their population renamed it Deutchsland since then. However the world had already been accustomed with the name germany so they just kept calling this nation Germany so far. ] (]) 09:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


:Résumé is an established word in English. Just like Ivory Coast. Côte and Ivoire are both French words.
* FFS people: the ENGLISH name of the country is Cote d'Ivoire. Period. The article title discussion only convinced the closing admin of the ''most used name'' in order to have the article at that name. You cannot translate a name into English then say that's the English name. For example, when someone named John goes to Russia, they should not call him Ivan. Do not make the error in logic that the country name in English is something other than Cote d'Ivoire. As such, all maps of Africa, etc, may continue to use its English name: Cote d'Ivoire. (]''']''']) 12:52, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
:Nonetheless, mon ami, let's compromise. What dost thou think of my last edit summary? ] (]) 10:50, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
:: Nobody is claiming Ivory Coast is the official name of the country, but it is the common name of the country in the English language, not that french name most of us cannot even type on our keyboards. Go and look at foreign wikipedias and see where they put country articles, you will see most dont use the english names of our countries, they use their ow language version. I fail to see why we cannot do the same. ] (]) 13:02, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


::We are providing a pronunciation of ''Côte d'Ivoire'' as an English name, treated as English words by English-language sources. The fact that these words derive from French does not mean that they are pronounced exactly as French. That's just not how language works.
The keyboard argument is quite silly. Do you have difficulty spelling resumé or naïve or fiancė? No one really cares that you havent figured out how to type accents, and with redirects it doesnt matter anyways. Agree with revert by bwilkins - the official name in english is Côte d'Ivoire, and that has nothing to do with keyboards or cherrypicked newspaper figures. --] (]) 13:09, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
: The reason it should be ivory coast is because its the commonname, that is down to the sources. The keyboard thing is an annoying side issue. ] (]) 13:26, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


::Regarding your change, I note that the words "coat" and "caught" are pronounced quite differently in most if not all dialects of English. You can't say it's pronounced "caught" when the source says it's pronounced "coat". ''''']'''''&nbsp;<small>'']''</small> 15:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
In some cases the generally accepted English name of a location ''is'' a translation of how it is known to most of its inhabitants e.g. ]/Sankt-Peterburg, ]/Kaapstad, ]/Timor-Leste, ]/Ciudad de México, ]. ] (]) 13:53, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
:::But caught is a better approximation for Côte... ] (]) 19:18, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
::::It wouldn't even be the same as K is aspirated . And the R is obviously different.
::::Please self revert. I'm really trying here. Compromising and everything. I even used open O because regular O doesn't exist in English as a monophthong. ] (]) 19:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::Why would someone self-revert the longstanding, correct, and sourced English pronunciation? To be honest most people I run across simply pronounce it coat-di-vore, but man in the street isn't the same kind of source as the Cambridge dictionary (). ] (]) 19:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::You seem to be trying to show English speakers how it should be pronounced to sound French. But that isn't what this is for. The provided French pronunciation already does that. What we need, and what was there before, is a record of how English speakers actually say it. It doesn't matter if this is "wrong" for French. It is right for English.--] (]) (]) 23:31, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::The "coat" pronunciation that those dictionaries show is not universal. Some Anglos do say it with ɔ:
::::::You're trying to marginalise the ɔ: pronunciation, that's not right. ] (]) 08:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::@] I know this is you. Please stop. ] (]) 02:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Baseless accusation. I have replied to you on my talk page. ] (]) 07:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::It's not a baseless accusation at all - that same IP range has been removing pronunciations with exactly the same reasoning and edit summaries that you've been making with this account, and has been making the precise same changes that you repeatedly tried to reinstate without any consensus. It is clearly you, and you've been edit-warring on this very talk page over the same threads on your account as well. It's a completely ridiculous situation, and trying to deceive the rest of us is just embarrassing. ] (]) 10:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Aren't you a lawyer? Don't you know about ]? I already gave you my reasoning as to why I restored that particular IP's edits. You don't give sources for your IPA edits. As an act of good faith, I'm gonna wait a few weeks, let you add the sources as I know this takes time. If you can't find sources for some of them, you can self revert. I know you'll do the right thing, I've seen your other edits. ] (]) 11:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::For full transparency, this ]. ] (]) 05:21, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::Even after getting me blocked, you can't let it go, can you? Why do you want to expose my IP address so badly? As long as I don't use it to game the system, what's the problem? But no, for you, me getting blocked is not enough. You just have to expose my IP range. This is harassment. ] (]) 08:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Two things here. First, anyone who clicks your name can see your block log with all the IP ranges from the Sockpuppet investigation. Yes it's easier with the post, but's it's easy anyway. And two, now that you changed the IPs to your handle, outside automated tools can connect your username and IP address in public databases... per ]. ] (]) 08:58, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Good to know. Though since my IP was already leaked I guess it's fine. I guess the question would be if it was easy, why did Knight feel the need to point it out? Isn't getting blocked punishment enough? But yeah good to know about automated tools, thanks Fyunck. ] (]) 09:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Blocks are not issued as punishments, they are tools to prevent disruption. It should be clear that no IPs have been leaked, many of the IPs were used to post on this public page. Furthermore, no harassment is evidenced, and if there is harassment, it should be discussed at an appropriate forum and not an article talkpage. ] (]) 10:02, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::Also, I explained why I posted it already: for full transparency; to make it clear it wasn't a "baseless accusation". Rolando has now changed the signatures on most of the comments they left as an IP to give their username, but at the end of the day anyone reading this thread has a right to know what happened here. ] (]) 16:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC)


== Missing country codes ==
Also it ''is'' relevant that most people, English speakers at least, are not familiar with how to enter accents on a keyboard. If a word of foreign origin, including a place name, is assimilated into English it tends to lose any accents, which is why most people would write fiance, and naïve and México would definitely be seen as affectations. What about resumé? Maybe that's one reason a lot of people would say c.v.. It has been pointed out that we are not just writing for English native speakers on the English Misplaced Pages. I would argue that this is an argument for Ivory Coast, because French is widely taught in British schools a lot of British people know at least a smattering of French, and can translate Côte d'Ivoire, but this does not apply in e.g. India. If Côte d'Ivoire ever does become clearly assimilated into English it will probably lose the circumflex along the way, and this version of the name is already used in some contexts in Misplaced Pages e.g. category "Cote d'Ivoire articles by quality". ] (]) 16:38, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


ISO 3166-1 has TWO alphabetical codes for each country (and one numeric code), one is two letters, one is three. Is there any reason why only the 2-letter code is mentioned here (CI, CIV and 384)? Is there any »good« reason that Côte d'Ivoire's pronunciation is tucked-away/hidden in a note? If French the appropriate language to pronounce the name and since pronunciation is local, which French would that be? Also, the CI Language article claims Dioula is also taught in school, so shouldn't it be included in the pronunciation guide?] (]) 23:27, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
We're writing an encyclopedia, not a populist chronicle of poor spellings. I'm sorry but I have zero patience with people who complain about not being able to type accents on their keyboard - no-one asked you to! And if you think typing accents is difficult, try learning latex! Shall we dumb down all the mathematics articles like ] because many people don't know latex? If you can't write accents, then just leave those article titles to people who can. Any modern operating system makes this extremely easy - google character map if you use windows. On an ipad or blackberry it's even easier to do accents. And in spite of any claims to the contrary, english has lots of words that are properly spelled with diacritics; besides resumé even words like cooperate can be spelled coöperate; and in older books you will sometimes see rôle. There are probably 100M english speakers in Nigeria - how many of them do you think would recognize Côte d'Ivoire, which is close by? You may find these articles useful: or . I hate to rain on your parade but it *is* already clearly assimilated into english. Try searching "Cote d'Ivoire" at AllAfrica.com, major news aggregator for Africa, and compare that to Ivory Coast. The world is not just BBC and NY Times.--] (]) 16:49, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
:We would use the English pronunciation of Cote d'Ivoire. It's in a note because the lead length was becoming way way way too long. There are already 3 names of which we normally limit it to two. With the pronunciations it was ridiculous, so a nice note was created. ] (]) 00:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
: "The world is not just BBC and NY Times." No, but actual usage in the English speaking world, which is what users of the English WP are likely to find ], is much better reflected by the BBC and NY Times than by AllAfrica. It's not our job to decide what's "correct" usage. To determine how to name our articles to best serve our readers, we follow the lead of the leading English newspapers, like the BBC and NY Times. --] (]) 22:48, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
::The chauvinism demonstrated by that comment (and others) really just stuns and saddens me. You do realize there are more english-speakers in India and China than the US and the UK? And while I realize you really *wish* what you said above was true, it's not - we have no guidance that says we prefer NY times over OED or Encyclopedia Brittanica, and no policy that says BBC News trumps the Economist. I'm sorry, but you're continued wishing and hoping for a world where we decide everything based on a few big western news sources (and that trumps books and journals and encyclopedias and dictionaries) is not policy and likely won't ever be. I suggest reading WP:IRS and trying to understand what it means.--] (]) 02:20, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
:::Karl.brown, native speakers of English have priority of place in determining common English usage. We do not go to the German Misplaced Pages and insist that people in the US who speak some German as a second language have more standing than the native speakers in Germany. Of course not. You claim that we're being chauvinist, but you simply don't think through the ramifications of what you have written in your passion to reinstate the French name of Ivory Coast. It's silly to claim that because the population of China has a little knowledge of English that their usage supersedes that of American and British native speakers. There simply is no substitute for native speakers in determining common English usage. To think that ESL speakers in Beijing count more than native speakers in Detroit or Glasgow is simply ludicrous. --] (]) 03:53, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
:::: Taivo, I'm worried about you - that was the single most dumb thing I have ever seen you write - even considering your edit to remove stuff. I honestly thought much higher of you. (]''']''']) 03:59, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
:::::(1) I never said ESL in Beijing count *more*; I'm only making the claim that they count! note to self: If hiring a linguistics expert to help compile an english-language dictionary, don't hire Taivo. Wow. I agree with Bwilkins. Have you ever *been* to Kenya, or Jamaica, or India, or Pakistan, or Singapore, or any number of other places where lots of people speak English that is different than what you're used to or read in your linguistics journals? Please, I'd love to hear more about this "common English usage" you speak of. Is it mostly determined by you? Or is there a secret cabal which decides? Me, I prefer to trust the professionals: you know, those guys who do things like, make dictionaries of the English language (but I guess you don't trust them, because they put words like Cote d'Ivoire in their dictionaries - the horror!). But in your system, which countries are deemed worthy to join the common english council? Is there a committee a country can join? Can we nominate countries from below the equator, or of a different color than us, or is it only USA and the UK and a few other close friends that get to decide? I've seen some ] movies, and if you call what they speak in northern England common english, well I guess I'm not as fluent as I thought I was! Also, we need to make sure to notify the 250 million ESL speakers in China and the ~120 million english speakers across Africa and the untold number of Indian and Pakistani and Sri Lankan english speakers that they, and the things they might do and say in the future, don't *count* as much as what guys in Detroit do and say when it comes to English. They should be put on notice, because they may be sneaky and try to change the language anyway (some of these sneaky fellows end up becoming writers and journalists and even linguists! - but we mustn't let them, because they're not ''native''. English is now an international language, used for business, commerce, entertainment, and so on, all over the world, and there are speakers of English in probably every country. I don't think many other languages can claim that. en.Misplaced Pages is for english speakers, not ''native'' english speakers. If you have policy-based evidence to the contrary, it would be most welcome.--] (]) 04:38, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
::::::There's nothing dumb at all about my comment, gentlemen. Native speakers have priority on the usage in the language over second language users. That is true of every language. If you want to write a grammar and dictionary of X language, you don't go to the next community over and talk to people who only know the language as a second language. No, it's basic linguistic honesty to go to the community where the language is spoken by native speakers and work with native speakers. All other speakers are ignored in terms of what they have to offer a linguist who is describing a language. If I were to go to one of my neighbors, who went to a Latin American country on an LDS mission, and tried to write a grammar of Spanish based on his second-language usage, I'd be laughed out of the field. This is so axiomatic, I can't even imagine how the two of you can justify making the comments you have made about it, other than trying your best to downplay the use of native speaker sources for determining most common English usage for the purpose of pushing the French name of this country. ESL African, Chinese, Indian, Singaporean, Kazakhstani, etc. sources are all of far less value in determining common English usage than sources from native speech communities. That is simply axiomatic in linguistics and your attempts to belittle that simple fact only illustrates the effort you are willing to put forth to get your French name reinstated as the title of this article. Sorry gents, but your comments really are POV pushing at its finest. --] (]) 04:55, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:25, 7 January 2025

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This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
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CautionPlease read the archive and discussion below before making a page move proposal.
This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

  • RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, No consensus, 11 November 2005, discussion
  • RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, No consensus, 8 January 2007, discussion
  • RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, No consensus, 21 June 2010, discussion
  • RFC, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, No consensus, 11 July 2010, discussion
  • RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, No consensus, 19 June 2011, discussion
  • RM, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, Moved, 12 June 2012, discussion
    • MVR, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast, No consensus, 10 July 2012, discussion
  • RM, Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire, Not moved, 26 January 2022, discussion
  • RM, Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire, Speedy close, 26 February 2022, discussion
  • RM, Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire, Moved, 27 June 2024, discussion
    • MRV, Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire, Overturned to no consensus, 12 July 2024, discussion


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Requested move 27 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED as proposed. Opposition to the move fell into basically three camps.

1. "Ivory Coast is more common in English!" In the face of convincing ngram evidence for Cote D'Ivoire, absolutely no evidence whatsoever was cited for this claim. It was summarily discarded, then.

2. "Ivory Coast is the English name!" Users such as Ajax were correct in saying things like "Misplaced Pages routinely uses the most common English name despite the wishes of those in power." However, as referenced above, the only evidence we have shows that Cote d'Ivoire is the most common name for the country in English. The first sentence of WP:UE reads: "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources". Ajax and others' arguments, therefore, aren't so much wrong as they are tautological. If Ivory Coast is the English name, it should be the title, but that's not something you can just assume to be true! That's the whole thing we're discussing!

3. "Cote d'Ivoire is hard to type!" As noted below, redirects exist.

All in all, pretty cut-and-dried. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 06:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The above closure was overturned to no consensus at Misplaced Pages:Move review/Log/2024 July. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire – It has overtaken Ivory Coast per ngrams () and should be used per WP:Common name. This is also the official name of the country, and the government has requested it is used over Ivory Coast , although that is of little value per WP:Official name.Alexanderkowal (talk) 22:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

The convention is to use ngrams, and it shows Côte d’Ivoire has overtaken Ivory Coast in English media Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
The convention is also to use English. We don't call Japan Nippon or Nihon. Killuminator (talk) 13:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
We would if Ngrams showed English media used Nippon more often than Japan, but they don’t Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
If the country is called "Côte d'Ivoire" in English, then it's English...--Ortizesp (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
It is not... ngrams are not the only yardstick whether it's current NY Times, AP News, Financial Times, ESPN, Reuters News, The Guardian, even the Dept of Agriculture. Both terms get used formally but colloquially it's Ivory Coast. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:47, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Ngrams is how we measure commonality, individual surveys are advised against per WP:Common name. Respectfully, you're denying clear evidence and convention. Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Please see Article title#Foreign names and anglicization, The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively). Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
It is one of the ways, but there are many problems with it. It is certainly not clear evidence. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
I disagree Alexanderkowal (talk) 09:58, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Some that use Cote d'Ivoire:
  • Britannica
  • UN
  • Ground News
  • The Independent
  • Amnesty International
  • Gov.uk
  • World Bank
  • CIA Factbook
  • IMF
  • Human Rights Watch
Kowal2701 (talk) 18:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
US gov also uses Cote d'Ivoire , just citing the department of agriculture is misleading Kowal2701 (talk) 19:06, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
And some that use the English translation of Ivory Coast
There is no shortage of Ivory Coast users. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:28, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
And I’m not saying Ivory Coast isn’t used. This is about what is used predominantly per WP: Article title#Foreign names and anglicization Kowal2701 (talk) 08:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
And I'm not saying that French Cote d'Ivoire isn't used, but the translation of English Ivory Coast is used more. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Can you provide evidence for that? Kowal2701 (talk) 09:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
I did above... did you not see them? Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Again, I don’t think that makes a strong case considering I matched it with equally notable sources Kowal2701 (talk) 09:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Per ngrams Côte d'Ivoire is used more often in english media Alexanderkowal (talk) 00:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Not media.... books! Ngram books. There is so much more than what ngrams show. Newspapers and universities and heaps of other items show other leanings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. The official name "Republic of Côte d'Ivoire, Côte d'Ivoire for short" is used more than Ivory Coast, as well as the government's preference to use the former than the latter. WP:COMMON would support the official name instead of the original per Ngrams. --ZZ'S 20:17, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Support (strongly) per reasons listed by nominator, etc. Paintspot Infez (talk) 01:09, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per ngrams results of Alexanderkowal. Here's the ratio of the two names — Côte d'Ivoire, with or without diacritics, is more common than Ivory Coast name since approximately 2004. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Unnecessarily complicated French name for an English-language Misplaced Pages, where Ivory Coast is perfectly "COMMON". Geschichte (talk) 10:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
    Côte d’Ivoire is used more commonly in English media therefore it is English, just like coup d’etat and cafe are English Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:05, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
    No it is not. ngrams never tell the whole story. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
    ? I'm really struggling to understand your opposition. Ngrams is what is conventionally used. What is special about this particular case that means we should avoid convention, and can you please refer to policy where possible? Kowal2701 (talk) 18:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
    And I'm struggling on where the heck you came up with Wikpedia uses google ngrams and nothing else. That has never been convention at Misplaced Pages. It is one tool we use. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:18, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    Can you give another tool we use that carries similar weight? We’ve provided a plethora of sources that use one or the other, which hasn’t really made a case for either. In doubt, ngrams shifts the scale towards Côte d’Ivoire, provided the user issues are satisfied Kowal2701 (talk) 09:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    My impression is that ngrams holds decisive weight when assessing commonality Kowal2701 (talk) 09:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    Then your impression is wrong. It holds weight, like many sources do. But a book search is not decisive. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree because I’ve often seen ngrams used as the only arbitrator for commonality, and I don’t think us listing sources one for one makes a strong case for either, or is a good use of time Kowal2701 (talk) 09:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    And I've often seen ngrams ripped to shreds here, and I've been here a long time. But I agree we are stuck in a loop where we have to agree to disagree. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:58, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:ENGLISHTITLE. Ivory Coast is English and Côte d’Ivoire is French, no matter how many times the French name is used in English-language publications. Our policy prefers English for article titles. It is irrelevant that governments prefer the use of the French-speaking country's French name (see also WP:OFFICIALNAME). It is of course important that Côte d’Ivoire appear prominently in the lead as well as being a redirect. Station1 (talk) 21:33, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
    The policies you've cited contradict your position. From WP:ENGLISHTITLE The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively).
    Cote d'Ivoire predominates in English-language reliable sources therefore it should be used. I've shown evidence it does predominate using convention, and nobody's shown evidence it doesn't. WP:Official name says nothing to contradict this move. Kowal2701 (talk) 21:40, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
    You are citing WP:UE, not WP:ENGLISHTITLE, which starts two paragraphs further up and clearly states as its first sentence "On the English Misplaced Pages, article titles are written using the English language." Your quote from WP:UE is just getting into details about spelling and anglicization of proper names like Kierkegaard's. Both "ivory" and "coast" are common English words, however, with only one spelling in English. Whether or not Cote d'Ivoire predominates or is "official" is irrelevant because it is clearly French. Station1 (talk) 22:46, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
    This comes from a misunderstanding of how language works. If a word, regardless of its origin, is used predominantly in English then it is English. Coup d’etat and cafe are English words regardless of their origin. Kowal2701 (talk) 08:45, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    ^ as the policy says Kowal2701 (talk) 08:53, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    That is incorrect. Cafe, in the sense of a small restaurant, is indeed an English word of French origin. The French word café is a different word that translates as "coffee". Coup d'état has no English equivalent ("stroke of state" is never used). Côte d'Ivoire, on the other hand, is simply French for Ivory Coast. Station1 (talk) 12:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    Lots of loanwords have translations in English, it isn't incorrect, this is how language works. Admittedly there are few examples I can recall of a foreign term overwhelming its English translation in usage but I'm sure there have been many. There are certainly lots of English translations overwhelming German words in German. Kowal2701 (talk) 12:16, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    Neither of us are experts in language, we should wait for someone with a better understanding Kowal2701 (talk) 12:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    Do you assume that just because you disagree with me? It is impossible to tell who is or is not an "expert" on WP, so appeals to authority, usually a bad idea, are especially worthless on WP, where every editor is anonymous and every argument must stand purely on its own merits. Station1 (talk) 18:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    And I don't think either of our arguments stand on their own merit. I'm just asking someone with a better understanding that could enlighten us, obviously we can still scrutinise, but there's considerable nuance to this that I don't think either of us grasp Kowal2701 (talk) 18:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    You might very well be right, but it would contradict what I've heard people say. I'm not sure how to research this either Kowal2701 (talk) 18:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    I've asked at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Languages#Linguistics of the use of Cote d'Ivoire Kowal2701 (talk) 12:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    It absolutely is correct. It's part of English because English-speakers use it when speaking English. They might also use "Ivory Coast" sometimes, but that doesn't mean "Cote d'Ivoire" is not English either. Theknightwho (talk) 22:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per what will yield the best results for research for our readers and what English language readers can type into a keyboard.Moxy🍁 21:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
    I'm not knowledgeable about this side of things, butsurely if Ivory Coast is put as an alternative name it still comes up to the same degree? At the moment, if I search Cote d'Ivoire via google, the article for Ivory Coast comes up first, wouldn't it be the same the other way around? I think having Ivory Coast and Cote d'Ivoire as redirects solves this issue. Lots of wikipedia articles have accents and diacritics Kowal2701 (talk) 21:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
    And with some titles, like Germany/Deutchland, Japan/Nippon, they are fully different names. Ivory Coast is the English translation of Côte d'Ivoire... they mean the same thing but one is English and one is French. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
    Again this comes from a misunderstanding of how English works. If a word, regardless of its origin, is used predominantly in English, then it is english Kowal2701 (talk) 08:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Support I think the shift has tipped to using Côte d'Ivoire. I note in particular that the Chicago Manual of Style says look for country names to the CIA World Fact Book (Côte d'Ivoire), Britannica (Côte d'Ivoire), U.S. Board on Geographic Names which in turn points to the Geographic Names Server (Côte d'Ivoire). In the UK, the permanent committee on geographic names states "Ivory Coast is the usual country name in the English language and can be used for internal HMG and UK domestic purposes. Côte d’Ivoire should be used for all correspondence and relations with the country itself. Côte d’Ivoire should also be used in correspondence with international organizations, such as the United Nations" (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65006d9557e884000de12980/Ivory_Coast_factfile.pdf). Note the 'can' for domestic use which implies author's choice but 'should' for international use which means use Côte d'Ivoire in such cases. Australian government seems to use Côte d'Ivoire except in old documents though in at least one place has "Côte d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast)". India seems to use "Cote d'Ivoire ". A search on google scholar since 2020 seems to show 22,100 for "Côte d’Ivoire" and 17,400 for "Ivory Coast" (524 had both, admittedly these numbers are estimates but it does seem to show a preference now for "Côte d’Ivoire"). :Erp (talk) 23:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
    All governments will use Côte d'Ivoire, as will many official bodies, because it is the official name. I am not sure how a source saying "Ivory Coast is the usual country name in the English language" can support the move, and I am surprised the PCGN uses "Ivory Coast". CMD (talk) 01:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    My guess is that the PCGN is dealing with some very conservative people in the government and are probably waiting for them to retire (or lose the election). I would say scholarly works also have moved to Côte d'Ivoire. I wanted to see what K-12 schools might be using so went to look at the National Geographic "World for Kids Map" which uses Côte d'Ivoire as does Britannica Kids Atlas https://kids.britannica.com/kids/browse/atlas Erp (talk) 02:20, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    Here's the thing, the CIA and US govt also use "Burma" instead of Myanmar. They have to take official positions when dealing with these countries and the politics involved. Yet the article is at Myanmar, not Burma. We don't always go by the CIA factbook... sometimes yes and sometimes no. PCGN uses "Myanmar (Burma)", but again we don't follow that either. We use what is commonly used in English. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    Myanmar is the official name, not Burma. ZZ'S 04:11, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    We don't go by official names, we don't go by CIA names, we don't go by PCGN names, and never have. That's what I'm saying. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    You’re right, we go by what ngrams says, and it says Côte d’Ivoire is predominantly used. What are you suggesting we go by? Kowal2701 (talk) 08:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    We absolutely do not! Ngrams have been shown time and time again to be deceptive. Where in the world would you get that that's all we go by? They are one set of tools we use. Google ngrams only do books... not newspapers, not websites, not university teachings, not your average joe on the street, not magazines, not blogs, not tv news, not radio, not a lot of things. It is useful but it's only one thing to look at. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    That contradicts my firm impression. Can you give some of the other tools used that carry similar weight? Kowal2701 (talk) 09:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    If the one dimensional "book" ngrams of google is all we went by this place would look very different. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:35, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    Please can you answer the question Kowal2701 (talk) 09:37, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    Why do you think I listed a whole heap of sources that tell you otherwise? For my health? We use sources and consensus here... ngram books are one source we use but there are hundreds of other sources. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    And I listed some sources that use Côte d’Ivoire, I don’t that makes a strong case for either side Kowal2701 (talk) 09:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    You may be right that sources could be split on the subject. There could be an endless parade of sources on both sides. That would be a reason to keep it where it is. And your posting also said it's the official name of the country, and the government has requested it be used over Ivory Coast. You know how much weight that carries here?... zero. Absolutely nothing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:55, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
    It was more to give reasoning for the change in use. WP:Official name#Valid use of official names goes by commonality Kowal2701 (talk) 10:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per ngrams results, which shows that Côte d'Ivoire has become the most common name in English usage over the past decade.
Beyond usage in books, it's also the name used by Google Maps, Britannica and other common references, so readers would expect to see it likewise listed here under that name.
I'd also point out that WP:NCGN#Use_English states that the local name should be used if there is no widely accepted common name in English, so even if we agree that English usage is split, clearly Ivory Coast is not the widely accepted name and so we should defer to the local name. TDL (talk) 23:49, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose the use of a colonial-era name that is not the most common English-language name for the country. From South Korea to East Timor and Brunei to Vietnam, Misplaced Pages routinely uses the most common English name despite the wishes of those in power. A perusal of the actual Ngram results (not just the numbers) shows a plethora of UN documents which necessarily follow the diktat of Ivorian authorities. Misplaced Pages is not a diplomatic manual, but a general encyclopedia, and as such should adhere to the principle of least astonishment and use the common, English name. —  AjaxSmack  06:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
    Both names are colonial era Kowal2701 (talk) 08:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be identical in form to the local name (as with Paris or Berlin), but in many cases it will differ (Germany rather than Deutschland, Rome rather than Roma, Hanover rather than Hannover, Meissen rather than Meißen). If a native name is more often used in English sources than a corresponding traditional English name, then use the native name. Two examples are Livorno and Regensburg, which are now known more widely under their native names than under the older English names "Leghorn" and "Ratisbon". Kowal2701 (talk) 17:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose: the ngram Kowal2701 posted is limited to books. Other media do not show the same pattern. My own news search returned a lot of official-type sources using the French form, but the general news agencies (AP, Reuters) using the English form. In general, news stories targeted at the general public use Ivory Coast. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
    Other encyclopedias like Britannica, New World Encyclopedia, CIA Factbook, encyclopedia.com, Oxford Research Encyclopedia etc. all use Cote d'Ivoire Kowal2701 (talk) 13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
    You know, you COULD just let each person make their comment and not go badgering everyone. Let the positions be stated and then start a new section where you can argue all your points instead of dumping them all over everything. This would keep points from being discussed in multiple places. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
    Good point, that's what I should've done, my bad Kowal2701 (talk) 13:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose, for now Government agencies prefer 'Côte d'Ivoire', but English publications targeted to the general English public prefer 'Ivory Coast'. This English Misplaced Pages article is targeted to the general English public, so should use what the general English public is most likely to search for. I make a note that the use of 'Côte d'Ivoire' is growing, but is not used enough in reliable English sources (targeted to the general reader) to establish it as the common name. Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball, but I can see this discussion being reopened as the usage of the proposed title increases. Svampesky (talk) 13:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
  • For future RM discussions, nom should heed WP:GOOGLELIMITS, which notes that Google does not index all sources or even a representative sample, and WP:DPT, specifically: Tools that may help to support the determination of a primary topic in a discussion (but are not considered absolute determining factors, due to unreliability, potential bias, and other reasons) include Usage in English reliable sources demonstrated with Google Ngram viewer (underline mine, italics original). The sloppiness of in the opening of this RM after so many previous ones severely disappints me. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 05:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
    Sorry, I wasn’t aware of that policy. I’ve just seen ngrams used as a determiner so wrongly assumed that would be the case be here Kowal2701 (talk) 06:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
    Is there a place that policy is collated into a sort of book with chapters? I only become aware of it after making a mistake and someone cites it Kowal2701 (talk) 07:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment on ngrams: In this case, ngrams results are significantly affected by OCR errors and other quirks, as Dohn joe noted at the 2012 RM. See ngrams including variations for l (lowercase L) and i, as well as ô and o, and space or no space in between d'. In particular, many were incorrectly transcribed as "lvoire" with a lowercase L; however, that mistake largely stops showing up after around 2010. The interpretation is debatable. I would say that Côte d'Ivoire probably gained in prevalence at an even earlier time than other commenters above believed, but also the pre-2010 portion of the ngrams results are probably less reliable than the more recent portion. Adumbrativus (talk) 05:19, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Conducting the same search conducted in the 2012 RM suggests that the common name remains "Ivory Coast". BilledMammal (talk) 18:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Support as per Google NGrams, as pointed out. Theknightwho (talk) 21:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per reasonably common usage above, and given that "Ivory Coast" as a name is potentially somewhat ambiguous and generic. BD2412 T 00:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-move review

For the actual move review discussion, see Misplaced Pages:Move review/Log/2024 July § Côte d'Ivoire (closed).
  • @Red Slash: You have to be frigging kidding me... there is no consensus to change this at all! ngram has all sorts of issues as was pointed out, and heaps was shown how common Ivory Coast is. I listed many and could have filled the talk page with more. The only thing on the side of Côte d'Ivoire was the ngram on books which is limited as pointed out in the discussion and prior discussions. This is one of the worst closes I've ever see. I can see it closing as Ivory Coast or even no consensus... but I'm actually shocked at this close. And it was still quite active with three people giving answers just today. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Yes, this is a candidate for review. Killuminator (talk) 08:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
I was just in a review on a different topic that I'm still amazed at, so sorry if I'm not optimistic in the review process here anymore. As long as a closer is sincere, reviews are stomped on regardless of poor closings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
I agree that this should be reopened, although I can see why they came to that decision Kowal2701 (talk) 08:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Tbh I would understand if the result is no consensus, regardless I’ve conducted myself very poorly and don’t really deserve it tbh Kowal2701 (talk) 10:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
@Kowal2701: it's all a learning curve, and you conducted the discussion in good faith, which is the most important thing. As noted, in future you should avoid trying to reply to every single comment made, as that is usually regarded as WP:BLUDGEONing and/or "badgering" of those with whom you don't agree. One or two replies is fine, but otherwise everyone is entitled to their opinion. Anyway, you'll know for next time! Personally I think the above discussion should have been closed as "no consensus" - the !vote count was roughly equal, and good points were made on both sides - particularly given that the WP:COMMONNAME situation doesn't seem clear cut. The slight lead enjoyed by Côte d'Ivoire in book sources is offset by evidence of Ivory Coast usage in media sources. It's a lot closer than it was 10–15 years ago though and, assuming the move isn't made now, I can definitely foresee it being made a few years from now.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Thank you, no consensus might be the best decision, with a future turning point possibly being use by mainstream media Kowal2701 (talk) 11:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
I agree that no consensus is the best option. The thing is, Misplaced Pages uses common name over official name. Yes, the government asks (almost) every country to only be called by its endonym, but media outlets still refer to this by its exonym. Think about why Kiev remained that way until 2020 even though it may have been the official name since at least 1995. But for this, its originally been known (in Misplaced Pages) by its French name, but has since renamed to its English name in July 2012.
Maybe its time to open a move review which is why this talk should have taken place at User talk:Red Slash instead of here. JuniperChill (talk) 15:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
I wrote quite a lot about why there's a consensus to move. What did you disagree with? Only one side actually presented evidence, and it honestly was quite overwhelming. Red Slash 06:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
I should clarify--one user did provide a list of several organizations that use Ivory Coast. However, that's literally what we have aggregators like ngrams for: so that instead of various people saying things like "look, I found a site that says X" and another person being like "hey I found a site that says Y", we can aggregate ALL of them together and see which one is more common. Obviously you can find some sources for either name, but the overall most common name was clearly proven to be the one that I can't type on my keyboard. Red Slash 06:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Overwhelming???? And when is 14 several? ngrams are only one small aspect. You seem to be taking them as some sort of cure-all, and that has never been the case. And that was pointed out here multiple times. ngrams are only books that googles uses. ngram usage has been used in past discussions but their limitations were outweighed by so many other sources still using Ivory Coast. I had no idea that a closer would actually take that as the only evidence to switch titles. Sorry but it's unsettling to say the least. It takes no press, no tv, no newsprint, no universities, no radio, etc. into account. Sure we use it as one source but the counter arguments here were even more powerful and out-numbering. Plus 3 people had just entered their reponses the day you closed, so still very active to boot. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:39, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Side note - Google translates/converts the title to English...thus for many nothing has changed. Moxy🍁 13:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
LOL... so those who need it translated to English can still see it as the English name of Ivory Coast. Otherwise we get to read it in French. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click) "Côte d'Ivoire" significantly outperforms "Ivory Coast" on Google Trends as well: , and it still outperforms if you restrict it to any English-speaking country, too. Theknightwho (talk) 19:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
The problem is it is limited by what google stores. And In United States and United Kingdom (two huge English speaking nations) it's pretty much flat. But ngrams are not the determining factor in these discussions. Most of those in favor pretty much rest on saying "because of ngrams." Do you realize the change of wikipedia if we based everything on ngrams only? There are heaps of Misplaced Pages articles that have 100% to 0% in English ngrams yet the article gained consensus for the 0%. ngrams are one aspect of gaining consensus, but not the only aspect. People also search for terms they have no idea about (which is what Google Trends is)... it could be "what the heck is a Côte d'Ivoire" and when they search it comes up Ivory Coast and they go "Oh it's the same as Ivory Coast." Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click) I'm not sure why you've limited it to news. If you change it to "all categories" you can see that "Côte d'Ivoire" is consistently in the lead (), and it's more pronounced in the US ().
This isn't NGrams, either - it's Google Trends, which is based on what people search for on Google; a completely different metric, which means that we now have two quite persuasive pieces of evidence that Côte d'Ivoire is in the lead, and dismissing it on the basis that people are probably Googling one term more because they don't know what it is seems very naive. Theknightwho (talk) 20:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
But we know from Misplaced Pages:Search engine test it is never as straight forward as that. People search for items they know nothing about. They know Ivory Coast so don't search for it. Of course they search for Côte d'Ivoire since they haven't a clue if it's a dessert or a country. Do you think people search for terms they know? We have so many articles at places where the ngrams are non-existent. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
You are comparing the search term Ivory Coast to the topic Cote d'Ivoire. Apples to oranges. When you make both of themsearch terms, Ivory Coast leads by quite a bit. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=Ivory%20Coast,C%C3%B4te%20d%27Ivoire&hl=en-GB
In fact, if you look at the country by country breakdowns for the last 5 years, the only places where Cote d'Ivoire leads are 1) French speaking countries and 2) Italy. Ivory Coast reachs 90%+ in all major English speaking countries (US, UK, Ireland, AUS, NZ, even South Africa and India) except Canada.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
  • I did not participate in this RM, but the close most certainly needs to be overturned to no consensus. English Misplaced Pages is consensus-based and main title headers of major entries, such as country names, should have overwhelming consensus and should be overwhelmingly used in media, as in the case of Ukrainian city names Kyiv and Odesa, formerly known in English by transliterations of their Russian names Kiev and Odessa. The Ivory Coast / Côte d'Ivoire naming is analogous to another long-running country naming dispute — Turkey / Türkiye. The expected overwhelming consensus in favor of renaming is missing in both cases — here, there were 17 votes, with nine votes opposed to the change and eight votes in favor of using "Côte d'Ivoire". Clearly, no consensus. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
    I agree but bear in mind per WP:DETCON consensus is ascertained by the quality of arguments given, not saying mine made were better Kowal2701 (talk) 19:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I opened a formal move review at Misplaced Pages:Move review/Log/2024 July. These things rarely seem to go anywhere but it is the next step in the process. Even involved editors can comment on whether the close was proper or not. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation again

Since we seem to keep having this problem: just like the word résumé is pronounced differently in French. American English, and British English, so is Cote d'Ivoire. And we need to show that in the article. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:06, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Résumé is an established word in English. Just like Ivory Coast. Côte and Ivoire are both French words.
Nonetheless, mon ami, let's compromise. What dost thou think of my last edit summary? Rolando 1208 (talk) 10:50, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
We are providing a pronunciation of Côte d'Ivoire as an English name, treated as English words by English-language sources. The fact that these words derive from French does not mean that they are pronounced exactly as French. That's just not how language works.
Regarding your change, I note that the words "coat" and "caught" are pronounced quite differently in most if not all dialects of English. You can't say it's pronounced "caught" when the source says it's pronounced "coat". Kahastok talk 15:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
But caught is a better approximation for Côte... Rolando 1208 (talk) 19:18, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
It wouldn't even be the same as K is aspirated . And the R is obviously different.
Please self revert. I'm really trying here. Compromising and everything. I even used open O because regular O doesn't exist in English as a monophthong. Rolando 1208 (talk) 19:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Why would someone self-revert the longstanding, correct, and sourced English pronunciation? To be honest most people I run across simply pronounce it coat-di-vore, but man in the street isn't the same kind of source as the Cambridge dictionary (or Websters). Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
You seem to be trying to show English speakers how it should be pronounced to sound French. But that isn't what this is for. The provided French pronunciation already does that. What we need, and what was there before, is a record of how English speakers actually say it. It doesn't matter if this is "wrong" for French. It is right for English.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 23:31, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
The "coat" pronunciation that those dictionaries show is not universal. Some Anglos do say it with ɔ:
You're trying to marginalise the ɔ: pronunciation, that's not right. 178.120.4.30 (talk) 08:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
@Rolando 1208 I know this is you. Please stop. Theknightwho (talk) 02:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Baseless accusation. I have replied to you on my talk page. Rolando 1208 (talk) 07:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
It's not a baseless accusation at all - that same IP range has been removing pronunciations with exactly the same reasoning and edit summaries that you've been making with this account, and has been making the precise same changes that you repeatedly tried to reinstate without any consensus. It is clearly you, and you've been edit-warring on this very talk page over the same threads on your account as well. It's a completely ridiculous situation, and trying to deceive the rest of us is just embarrassing. Theknightwho (talk) 10:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Aren't you a lawyer? Don't you know about presumption of innocence? I already gave you my reasoning as to why I restored that particular IP's edits. You don't give sources for your IPA edits. As an act of good faith, I'm gonna wait a few weeks, let you add the sources as I know this takes time. If you can't find sources for some of them, you can self revert. I know you'll do the right thing, I've seen your other edits. Rolando 1208 (talk) 11:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
For full transparency, this was confirmed. Theknightwho (talk) 05:21, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Even after getting me blocked, you can't let it go, can you? Why do you want to expose my IP address so badly? As long as I don't use it to game the system, what's the problem? But no, for you, me getting blocked is not enough. You just have to expose my IP range. This is harassment. Rolando 1208 (talk) 08:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Two things here. First, anyone who clicks your name can see your block log with all the IP ranges from the Sockpuppet investigation. Yes it's easier with the post, but's it's easy anyway. And two, now that you changed the IPs to your handle, outside automated tools can connect your username and IP address in public databases... per WP:LOGGEDOUT. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:58, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Good to know. Though since my IP was already leaked I guess it's fine. I guess the question would be if it was easy, why did Knight feel the need to point it out? Isn't getting blocked punishment enough? But yeah good to know about automated tools, thanks Fyunck. Rolando 1208 (talk) 09:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Blocks are not issued as punishments, they are tools to prevent disruption. It should be clear that no IPs have been leaked, many of the IPs were used to post on this public page. Furthermore, no harassment is evidenced, and if there is harassment, it should be discussed at an appropriate forum and not an article talkpage. CMD (talk) 10:02, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Also, I explained why I posted it already: for full transparency; to make it clear it wasn't a "baseless accusation". Rolando has now changed the signatures on most of the comments they left as an IP to give their username, but at the end of the day anyone reading this thread has a right to know what happened here. Theknightwho (talk) 16:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Missing country codes

ISO 3166-1 has TWO alphabetical codes for each country (and one numeric code), one is two letters, one is three. Is there any reason why only the 2-letter code is mentioned here (CI, CIV and 384)? Is there any »good« reason that Côte d'Ivoire's pronunciation is tucked-away/hidden in a note? If French the appropriate language to pronounce the name and since pronunciation is local, which French would that be? Also, the CI Language article claims Dioula is also taught in school, so shouldn't it be included in the pronunciation guide?40.142.176.185 (talk) 23:27, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

We would use the English pronunciation of Cote d'Ivoire. It's in a note because the lead length was becoming way way way too long. There are already 3 names of which we normally limit it to two. With the pronunciations it was ridiculous, so a nice note was created. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
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