| Revision as of 17:21, 26 April 2006 editEzhiki (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators165,314 edits →More Kiev Kyiv: rsp to Serhiy← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 16:35, 1 October 2024 edit undoMacaddct1984 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, IP block exemptions, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers21,624 edits →Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 September 2024: Edit request not done at this time. (Edit Request Tool) |
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{{WikiProject Ukrainian subdivisions }} |
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{{FAQ}} |
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{{American English}} |
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{{Article history |
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| action1 = PR |
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| action1date = 17:45, 21 August 2005 |
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| action1link = Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Kiev/archive1 |
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Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. |
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|action2date = 17:42, 23 May 2006 |
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If further archiving is needed, see ]. |
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| action2link = Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Kiev/archive1 |
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'''Previous discussions:''' |
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| action3date = 25 September 2007 |
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| action3link = Talk:Kiev#GA Review |
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| topic = Geography |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|vital=yes|1= |
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{{WikiProject Cities|capital=y}} |
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{{WikiProject Ukraine| importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Former countries}} |
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{{WikiProject Russia|importance=Low|hist=yes}} |
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{{Press|collapsed=yes |
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| subject=article| title=#KyivnotKiev:#kyivfourrome Misplaced Pages changes spelling of Ukrainian capital| org=]| url=https://www.unian.info/kyiv/kyivnotkiev-wikipedia-changes-spelling-of-ukrainian-capital-news-kyiv-11150921.html| date=2020-09-18| quote=The press service suggested that the moderators decided to "rename" the article because of the growing use of "Kyiv" in English-language sources.| accessdate=2020-09-19 |
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| subject2=article| author2=Daryna Antoniuk| title2=Kyiv not Kiev: Misplaced Pages changes spelling of Ukrainian capital| org2=]| url2=https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/kyiv-not-kiev-wikipedia-changes-spelling-of-ukrainian-capital.html?cn-reloaded=1&cn-reloaded=1| date2=2020-09-18| quote2=Misplaced Pages couldn’t change the mistake earlier because it just displayed the spelling that is most popular among prestigious international media outlets, the Ukrainian representative office of Misplaced Pages said.| accessdate2=2020-09-19 |
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| subject3 = article |
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| author3 = Stephen Harrison |
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| title3 = How the Russian Invasion of Ukraine Is Playing Out on English, Ukrainian, and Russian Misplaced Pages |
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| url3 = https://slate.com/technology/2022/03/wikipedia-russian-invasion-of-ukraine-edits-kyiv-kiev.html |
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| date3 = 1 March 2022 |
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| quote3 = But before covering the latest developments, it’s worth revisiting one of the most brutal edit wars in Misplaced Pages’s history, which also says something about the Ukrainian spirit. The issue was whether the web encyclopedia should spell Ukraine’s capital as “Kyiv” or “Kiev.” |
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| accessdate3 = 1 March 2022 |
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{{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=b}} |
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{{Talk:Kyiv/naming/old discussion list}} |
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==DO READ ARCHIVES ABOVE BEFORE PLAYING WITH KIEV/KYIV/KIJOW/etc THINGS== |
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{{top 25 report|Feb 20 2022}} |
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{{Archives|title=Naming archives (])|root=Talk:Kyiv/naming|search=yes}} |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 January 2024 == |
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==Modern City== |
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Is there any chance someone could provide some information about the modern city, rather than its name or history? --] 23:19, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC) |
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{{edit extended-protected|Kyiv|answered=yes}} |
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: I'll have a go at creating some kind of starting point. I've not lived in Kiev for 10 years now, but I've been back enough to see some changes occur. I'll post it here before we decide to move it into the Kiev page. -- ] 6 July 2005 01:09 (UTC) |
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Replace 'also written as Kiev' with 'outdated place-name Kiev' in the title block: as it misleadingly enable a russian promoted writing to continue being used. If clarification is needed, i propose to add 'formerly' into the statement as to emphasize its outdated nature. ] (]) 23:51, 30 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{not done}} The reality is that sources use Kiev, it is not misleading. See ] for more.<span style="font-family:Courier;"><b> // ] :: ] </b></span> 00:23, 31 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::Replace 'also written as Kiev' with 'outdated place-name Kiev' in the title block: as it misleadingly enable a russian promoted writing to continue being used. ] (]) 02:02, 4 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::It's neither Russian nor Ukrainian. It is the longstanding ENGLISH name that readers will still encounter. --] (]) (]) 03:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::"Kyiv" spelling/pronunciation is the newspeak. It has not been used historically. ] (]) 04:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::Right where it says in brackets of the article “(also spelled Kiev)”, can that tiny bit (at least) be updated to “(also spelled '''as''' Kiev)”? 🙂 (It only makes better sense that way). ] (]) 20:22, 6 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== claimed 100k population - not one of the largest in the world == |
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:: I've started writing this section. Everyone's welcome to comment and contribute. Until it's more-so complete or at least in a decent shape, I have placed it here: ]. -- ] July 8, 2005 13:42 (UTC) |
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"Before Bogolyubsky's pillaging, Kyiv had had a reputation as one of the largest cities in the world, with a population exceeding 100,000 at the beginning of the 12th century" - |
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:: I've made some progress on Modern Kiev and would like to ask everyone to add their changes and comments. ]. -- ] 17:17, July 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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this strikes my as wildly overblown, from looking at the ] list. 100,000 might have been large, for the region (although still considerably smaller than Constantinopole), but nowhere close to "one of the largest cities in the world", as that would have to compete with the likes of Baghdad and large cities in China. ] (]) 07:52, 23 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Spelling error in lead section - "ninenteenth" == |
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== Kharkivskyi neighborhood == |
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"Coming under Lithuania, then Poland and then Russia, the city would grow from a frontier market into an important center of Orthodox learning in the sixteenth century, and later of industry, commerce, and administration by the '''ninenteenth'''." ] (]) 23:48, 24 August 2024 (UTC) |
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Hi all. I've created a short article for the Kharvkivskyi neighborhood (under Kharkivskyy because that was the link on the Kiev page). I think it should be called Kharkivskyi, though, not Kharkivskyy. I didn't think about doing the change before I published the article, so maybe someone can please re-link the pages properly? Thanks! -- ] July 6, 2005 15:58 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Forvana}} Fixed. Thanks. ] (]) 23:57, 24 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 September 2024 == |
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== Attractions rearrangement == |
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Presently, the article contains quite a few photos of Kyiv attractions. The photos are a bit scattered and this does not look good. Could anyone try to arrange the photos in nice looking tables, for instance, as it is done in ]. Thanks in advance. ] 7 July 2005 05:29 (UTC) |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Kyiv|answered=yes}} |
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==Kiev Coat of Arms at the time of Imperial Russia== |
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Change demographics GDP title from |
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This image should be removed as someone's modern fantasy. As best I know, the current coat of arms is exactly the same as was used during ]'s reign. It is featured in Catherine's Gerbovnik as part of coats of arms of different noble families descended from ], e.g., , , , etc. --] 7 July 2005 08:19 (UTC) |
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| demographics1_title1 = Total |
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To |
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:Feel free to modify if you are sure the CoA is wrong and see whether anyone will claim you're wrong. I won't. As for the history of this image, I got it from ( http://www.heraldry.com.ua/index.php3?lang=E&context=info&id=476#verh ). Maybe they didn't know what they were writing about. --] July 7, 2005 17:12 (UTC) |
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| demographics1_title1 = ] and ] |
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== Updated lilacs photo == |
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] (]) 02:36, 26 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done for now:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> It's not clear why that's an improvement over the current formatting, especially in a narrow infobox. – ] <sup>(] | ])</sup> 16:35, 1 October 2024 (UTC) |
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I've updated the photo of the Kiev Botanical Gardens with a photo taken by R. Lezhoev. I have gotten in touch with him and asked his permission to upload the photo on Misplaced Pages. He agreed, assuming he is credited on the page where the photo is shown. The caption right now is a bit long, I'll leave it up to someone to change as they see fit. Getting rid of the note about Vydubychi would probably work. -- ] July 7, 2005 14:23 (UTC) |
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For those interested to compare the old and the new: |
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*Old photo: ] (taken approx. 1994) |
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*New photo: ] (taken 2003) |
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You can see how much the city changed (grew) from the amount of buildings in the background. Quit amazing. -- ] July 7, 2005 14:25 (UTC) |
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== Livoberezhnyi district == |
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I was just wondering after looking at the ]. The station ''Livoberezhna'' (meaning left shore or left bank) is located on the right bank of the river (geographically). A future possible metro extension (line 5), is also to be called ''Livoberezhna'' while it is located on the rigth bank geogrpahically. It seems the geographically right bank is called the left bank. Am I correct? I think we should add a small note about this somewhere on the Kiev page. -- ] July 7, 2005 16:56 (UTC) |
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: It's the left bank as the river flows; i.e., on your left as you sit in a boat going downstream. ''—] ] <small>2005-07-7 17:07 Z</small>'' |
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:: Ah, makes sense. Thanks! -- ] July 7, 2005 17:08 (UTC) |
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==Map of Formal Districts== |
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I've created three versions of the map of distrcits: |
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*] - in Ukrainian |
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*] - in English |
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*] - numbered |
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Feel free to use whichever one. I've added the Ukrainian version to the Districts section of the article. |
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-- ] 21:55, July 23, 2005 (UTC) |
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Hi everybody. Regarding that map: unfortunately, it doesn't reflect the river - which is rather important for understanding the city's subdivision. Would somebody "split" it following the respective raion limits line? ] 19:14, 27 December 2005 (UTC) |
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== Kiev Photos / Pictures == |
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I've contributed a few of the photos to Kiev article in the past. Most of my selections were based on key attractions. I see even more additions of Kiev photos in the ] section. I believe that these are ALL GREAT PHOTOS! And I'm sure there are even more. I would love to have a separate section of Kiev Photos which would feature the key attractions. Those could be updated as better photos of the same places turn up... |
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My proposal - create a separate page on Misplaced Pages : Kiev/Album or Kiev/Photos which would be entirely dedicated to all pics. |
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On the main article page include one or two photos per related section and a link to the newly created album page where more photos can be viewed. |
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What do you guys think? |
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] 18:33, 25 July 2005 (UTC) |
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Aaaah... just figured out that there is also tons of on Wikimedia Commons |
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] 18:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC) |
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== Article Quality and Reorganization == |
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I thought about a list what must be done to make ] a ]. Feel free to add or modify. ] 04:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC) |
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#Make the lead section '''shorter'''. Especially, the paragraph with history. Possibly have 3 paragraphs there, but not more. (I already shortened the history in the lead couple of days ago. Do you think still shorter needed? -]) |
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:Yes, please, try to cut out all inessential detail (like Muskovy, later Russian empire, -- just Russian empire is enough). I think, for the lead, history paragraph is too long. Instead, if possible try to give a sentence or two about major tourist attractions. Plus Eurovision and Orange revolution - for PR reasons - most people are much more interested in recent events than history. |
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::OK, I will try to rewrite the lead as per your suggestion. --] 03:49, August 18, 2005 (UTC) |
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:As a matter of fact, I am somewhat concerned that Kiev article, as a whole, is improperly structured. For instance, universities are under attractions. That's nonsense. Other important/useful info is missing: e.g., where most government building are, where to look for embassies, where to go shopping. There is no discussion of the economy of Kiev. ] 08:54, 17 August 2005 (UTC) |
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::While I mostly agree here, we need to avoid ovedoing it. Embassies, for sure, belong to Wikitravel -] 03:49, August 18, 2005 (UTC) |
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:Also, peers suggest reading articles on other cities as examples. See ]. ] 08:54, 17 August 2005 (UTC) |
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::Will do. --] 03:49, August 18, 2005 (UTC) |
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#Squeeze the into tab. |
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#<s>Rearrange pictures into galleries. The way it is done in ] article may be a good example.</s> |
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#<s>Redraw the picture with formal districts, ] into English names</s> |
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#Put district names into table. |
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#Add section on transportation and consider other possible sections as in ] article. |
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#<s>Make a separate article on the history of Kyiv and summarize history in the main article.</s> |
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:On 1. I agree, I just expanded a lead a little bit, but what I think is that the 2nd para from the lead may actually become a basis for an entire history section and the current history can be indeed spun-off to a separate ] article. You are correct in everything else here too. This is so much better than Kiev/Kyiv/Kijow wars! Regards, --] 04:14, August 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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''']''' is now a separate article, initially pasted from here. Please go there and help improving it, add pictures, etc. The plan is to have '''both''' at FA level. --] 07:20, August 14, 2005 (UTC) |
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The current history section is based upon old "quick-history" in the lead. Please remember that ] is now a separate article and most of editing on history related matters should be there! |
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The even briefer history outline for the ''current'' lead is new. Please help with images arrangement at this page. |
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'''Since there is an ongoing drive to make both this and ] articles featured, please use extra care'''. Editing is welcome (this is wiki afterall), but please avoid careless "throwing in some thoughts" into the text. Also, a reminder, for Kiev/Kyiv/other disputes, archives reflect some thorough discussion. Before returning to this, read what was said before. Thanks to all! --] 20:19, August 14, 2005 (UTC) |
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: When I drew the maps of Kiev, I made 3 versions: |
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:: ] |
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:: ] |
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:: ] |
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: I can also provide a version without any headings. -- ] 18:26, August 16, 2005 (UTC) |
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I substituted the second of these for the existing one in the article. Is it possible to slightly color up the map? Say, Obolon in light blue, Pechersk in light green, etc. If that's overly time consuming - no problem, the current version should work fine. Thanks. ] 05:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC) |
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:: I originally had drawn it in different colors, but that looked very ... colourful? ... to me so I changed it to plain. I don't have the coloured version anymore, but I can make it quite easily again. I will upload it in the next few days. -- ] 14:25, August 17, 2005 (UTC) |
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I much prefer the way you guys have done the images now. I found it annoying having to scroll through them all before. -- ] 14:25, August 17, 2005 (UTC) |
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== New Images == |
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The new images look great, but we've lost their logical ordering. ] 05:00, 5 September 2005 (UTC) |
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== Categories == |
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Why is it under Khazar towns | History of Russia categories? ] 17:32, 18 September 2005 (UTC) |
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===Summary of older discussions over names in the articles=== |
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For those who are too lazy to read older discussions here is a quick summary. Polish names probably exist for every city of Ukraine. There are three ways how they can apply. |
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#For some cities, their Polish name is so important that it may be found in English texts even nowadays (Lviv/Lwow/Lvov/Lemberg). For such cities it needs to be placed in the very first line of the article, except perhaps when the article has a name etymology piece close to the top where similar names are listed and explained (current solution at ]). In such articles all names except native are given within etymology discussion. |
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#For some cities, while much of the Polish history still applies to them, they are never, or almost never, called nowadays by their Polish names in English language texts. Examples are Kiev/Kyiv/Kijow, Chernihiv/Chernigov/Czernihow, Kaniv/Kanev/Kaniow, etc. Polish name should be used for such cities in the history sections (like Voivodship name) but not in the first line, because otherwise (like for Kiev) any name of any country that ever conquered it (Lithuanian, German, Crimean Tatarian, Swedish, whatever was the ] language, Cuman, etc.) deserves the place in the first line. Similarly, Варшава, Белосток, Краков, at times conquered and controlled by Russia, by this token would need to be mentioned in the first lines of the respective articles (and I know some of our Polish friends will not take it lightly). This would be clutter and/or bad blood. We have a separate list article called ] for this information. |
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#Finally, for some cities in Ukraine (], ]) Polish name is totally irrelevant. |
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The same rule of thumb applies to Russian names. However unfortunate it may seem for some, many Ukrainian cities ''are'' mentioned in English by their Russian names occasionally even today (]/], ]/]), etc. So, there are more Russian names than Polish ones in the first lines. I hope I captured everything. Do read archives, if interested. --] 17:43, 10 October 2005 (UTC) |
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::Good as long as we're all clear on this. -] 23:47, 10 October 2005 (UTC) |
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This was an implied consensus. However, it was never voted or formally approved, unlike ] dispute. If most agree on this, I could set up a page for up and down vote on this proposal so that edits in violation of consensus (if reached) could be reverted on sight similar to ] vote results. Any objections to trying to run such a survey? --] 03:37, 11 October 2005 (UTC) |
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:Oh, and of course we need to establish in advance the criteria of establishing ''sufficient'' English usage. I propose the following: |
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:#check other respected encyclopedia such as ], ], ], ], ]. What names they mention early on? |
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:#: The only issue I'd like to raise about using other encyclopedias is if we do so extensively (and as I've seen, many articles source other encyclopedias as source), it almost becomes pointless to write the article in the first place. Why not just say "Read Brtiannica"? And further, doesn't it become a copyright issue, also? -- ] 01:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC) |
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:#Check the ''current'' media usage. Search engines are ], ], maybe others... |
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:#An good old google test but only among English language web-pages. |
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:Does the list seem objective and unbiased? --] 03:58, 11 October 2005 (UTC) |
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:: Sounds good. I can see how this would apply to article titles, but can we extend it to include the secondary names too? |
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:: I would add that the default titles for Ukrainian place names on Misplaced Pages have generally been spelt using the simplified National transliteration system (see ]). Notable exceptions are the well-known names Kiev, Odessa, Dnieper, but not Kharkiv, Lviv. ''—] ] <small>2005-10-11 15:52 Z</small>'' |
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:: PS: let's not create any ]. ''—] ] <small>2005-10-11 21:04 Z</small>'' |
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I am also against domination templates. To Michael's question on how this would apply not only to article's titles but also the secondary names, my view is the following. First of all, primary names (titles) are more or less settled now. Except of Kiev, Odessa, some cities of Crimea (as well as the name ] itself), Dnieper, Southern Bug (maybe there are a couple of more examples but I can't think of any off hand) the Ukrainian name is primary and the article is entitled by its transliterated version. This is already determined via the criteria listed above by looking for the most common English usage and finding that for the places of UA, except those listed above, the most common usage name coinsides with the transliterated Ukrainian name. In a similar way, we can determine an existence of the usage for the secondary name. EB article for Kharkiv is called Kharkiv, but introduces Kharkov in the first line. EB article on Lviv introduces Russian, Polish and German names, EB's Chernivtsi introduces Romanian, Russian and German. I am not saying we should just copy Britannica. If we find via methodes 2 and 3 that other names (Czernihów) are used in modern English we will also add them to the first line. |
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Let me repeat that the issue here is not the usage of the names in the article in appropriate context ] but what names should be mentioned in the first line. I want to settle the issue not because I want to remove some particular names, but because settling this would help consistency, reduce clutter (explained in the beginning of this section) and put an end to a very popular type of edit wars over this. So, any objections to putting this proposal up for a vote? I will then set a separate page for this. Thanks! --] 04:17, 15 October 2005 (UTC) |
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:: Here is one more related question. Which name should be used in the text. Should it be the title of the article, excluding probably some historial names like Kijow Voivodship?--] 11:37, 15 October 2005 (UTC) |
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You are correct that here are three issues: what name to use for the article's title (settled earlier practically for all Ukrainian places), the name(s) to mention in the first line and the name to use within the articles. We are not deciding the latter issue right now, but a rule of thumb is to use the name that is used in modern English L. history books that write about that particular period. This tradition is broader than WP. Check for instance WW2 books terminology. However, this discussion for now is only about the names to be listed in the first line as alternative names. --] 02:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC) |
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:I've been reading old discussions and it seems the trend is to beginning to emerge to write it as Kyiv. More new webpages on google write it as Kyiv. But since so many old webpages remain, it will take a long time before Kyiv becomes the most popular google spelling. Compared to 2003, the ratio between Kyiv and Kiev has shrunk considerably. Even in a few months that I spend looking it seems Kyiv gained on Kiev. We should begin thinking about when we plan to rename the article to Kyiv. -] 10:10, 21 October 2005 (UTC) |
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::What we are discussiong right now are the ''rules of the game'' not the particular name. When Kyiv prevails in English L usage, we will move the article. What matters much more than google test, is the major media test as well as other online reference sources, like Britannica and Oxford. I proposed Kharkov->Kharkiv and Lugansk->Luhansk myself as you can see if you read the earlier discussions. Let's just all agree on the general rules first and discuss the applications for particular cities separately. --] 16:08, 21 October 2005 (UTC) |
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: Remember: ]. What about use inside article? Let me add a comment based on personal experience: there are new Polish names waiting for English/Russian/Ukrainian versions in the ]s article. I find it useful to keep Polish names in the article (after first instance of use, following English of course), since they are useful when one wants to research some stuff in Polish (many of my articles are based on transltion from Polish and I find it mighty useful to have Polish name mentioned in the articles). --] <sup>]</sup> 04:55, 23 October 2005 (UTC) |
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This is not about the use inside of the articles as I said above. This is only about the first line. Besides, we have a great list of ]. Use inside the articles is a separate issue. --] 04:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC) |
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At the present time, Kiev is the name the Beeb uses, for whatever that's worth . ] 17:18, 22 November 2005 (UTC) |
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== When did Kiev fall to the Mongols ? ] ? ] ? or ] ] ? == |
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The ] page says ], ] says "After many days of siege, the horde stormed Kiev in December ].", and ] and ] show the date as ] ]. I suspect the Mongols started the attack in 1238 and took 2 years to capture Kiev. Can someone familiar with topic confirm the dates and fix this, please ? -- ] 19:31, 27 November 2005 (UTC) |
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I'm not sure what the specific official date is, but there are some indications that the horrible destruction of Kiev attributed to the Mongol "hordes" were actually committed several years earlier by the neighbouring principalities. Maybe that is the source of the confusion? The year of destruction of Kiev vs. the year when the Mongols sieged it?--] 20:00, 27 November 2005 (UTC) |
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:Any respectable sources that support these "some indications"? To me this sounds like a novel thought in historiography, but of course I am just a Wikipedian and not a historian by profession (though I did read history books). To see the mainstream account, you may start from Britannica, certainly not the best History book, but certainly as mainstream as one can possibly get. A quote from there: |
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:''In 1238 a Mongol army under Batu, grandson of Genghis Khan, invaded Rus and, having sacked the towns of central Rus, in 1240 besieged and stormed Kiev. Much of the city was destroyed and most of its population killed. The Franciscan friar and traveler Giovanni da Pian del Carpini six years later reported only 200 houses surviving in Kiev.'' |
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--] 20:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC) |
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:: I was looking for historic events for the Selected Anniversaries section on MainPage for ]. If the date of the Fall of Kiev cannot be easily confirmed, I suppose I shouldn't post it on MainPage. Thanks. -- ] 08:12, 29 November 2005 (UTC) |
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== ] needs serious improvement == |
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There are some false and/or ambiguous issues there: |
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*''The only major train station''? |
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*''partial collapse of transit system''? |
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*''buses including trams''??? |
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Somebody fix, or move the whole section here - temporarily. ] 18:51, 27 December 2005 (UTC) |
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::It needs improvement by I don't think it is that bad as to be totally removed from the article to talk. We can improve gradually within the article itslelf. On the side note, the practical collapse of the transit system in the nineties did occur. Also, the suburban transportation including the ran-down buses and the famous Soviet ]s is totally missing. --] 19:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC) |
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:::Well there is the ] article (I am currentely negotiating with several people for right of images, hopefully I can begin filling out the station details soon). http://www.parovoz.com/ is a good site for information on rail transit. -- ] 19:27, 27 December 2005 (UTC) |
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I lack time, English and special rail terms, not factual info:) I just live here in this transportation system... I think we should closely work with WP-en trains and buses artilces&categories to harvest gizmo words and classification. ] 19:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC) |
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== Structure of the article == |
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IMHO, the existing structure of the sections is poorly readable and priority-missing. So I suggest the following plan of contents: |
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#Geography... |
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#History |
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#Legal status... |
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#Subdivisions |
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#Modern Kiev (shouldn't we split&develop it to Economy, Architecture, Social, Culture etc.?) |
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#Transportation |
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#Economy (non-existing so far) |
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#Universities |
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#Kiev or Kyiv |
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... |
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Please modify this structure below with your opinion. To my mind, we should analyze the experience of other megacities/capitals on WP. |
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I also suggest to establish the structure pattern for all big cities of Ukraine, based on the experience of Kiev. See the discussion ]. ] 13:03, 2 January 2006 (UTC) |
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:Done. ] 20:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC) |
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==Seens like copyrights-free photos of Kiev== |
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Hi everybody. In case if anyone interested, I came across the . Would somebody take a look,investigate the possibilities and start using them? As for me, I don't know how to handle WP images yet. P.S. Merry Orthodox Christmas for everybody! ] 20:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC) |
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:The image at the bottom of the site claims a copyright to UNIAN but the Ukrainian law allows certain exceptions as elaborated in ]. |
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:An excellent source of images from Ukraine is the cite http://sk.vlasenko.org whose author allows the usage of his images in WP under GFDL provided we aknowledge his authorship similar how it is done at ]. --] 20:41, 6 January 2006 (UTC) |
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::Even though the law may allow certain exceptions, I'm not quite sure that those exceptions apply to the UNIAN images. I would suggest emailing them and clarifying what and how (and if) we can use. I can do that, I have done that a few times. ] 13:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC) |
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== More Kiev Kyiv == |
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Use English in all. We've had this debate as it relates to the names of Irish towns. Irish Gaeilge just doesn't work no matter how many Irish speakers the town has. |
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I just left a message for a user at Commons that: while I supported his change of the article to Kyiv (Commons is an interlingual resource), I felt insulted by his assertion that "Kiev" was an ''American'' spelling. After checking with Australian, British and Canadian news outlets, all major English speaking nations use the spelling "Kiev". In fact, there's a fascinating article about it here from ]. ]<font style="color:#FF72E3;"><span class="Unicode">▼</span></font>'''<sup>]</sup>'''<font color="#FF0000" size="+1"><span class="Unicode">♥</span></font><sup>''']'''</sup><font color="#5500FF" size="+1">'''<span class="Unicode">♑</span>'''</font> 22:17, 6 February 2006 (UTC) |
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: Thanks for the link. Please keep in mind that ''Kyiv'' is an alternate English spelling, and not merely a Ukrainian transliteration or a neologism. It is still used by some English-language media in English-speaking countries, is has been used in English-language publications since at least a couple of decades in my experience, and is an alternate headword referring to ''Kiev'' in my Canadian Oxford Dictionary ''—] ] <small>2006-02-06 23:24 Z</small>'' |
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What I don't understand is if most Kievans actually use Russian instead of Ukrainian, why would we want to reject the English form? Is it just because the Ukrainian government promotes the Ukrainian language? - '''] ('']'')''' 23:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC) |
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:Kiev is a Russophone city and strictly the Russian would be Kiyev. So Kiev is a long-established English spelling like Moscow and Warsaw. --] 00:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC) |
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:: So why, if the city is Russophone and there is an established English-spelling, is there any movement to call it by the Ukrainian name? I mean, if the Ukrainian executive government decided to actually reflect the ''de facto'' status of Russian in its various regions and changed its spelling of the city to Kiyev, would we have to move the article again? Seems like a silly argument. - '''] ('']'')''' 00:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC) |
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::: Well what goes in the minds of certain Ukrainian government officials I would not take kindly to explain on this talk page and that's the main argument of ]. Of course suppose Russian becomes also a state language (which is quite possible given the recent and the opinion polls showing support for Parties that do currentely exhibit Russian as second official language), it will not change anything since Kiev is still the most widespread spelling in the world. --] 01:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC) |
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Guys, this debate takes more than half of all the article's related discussion and archives. Please see the message on top of this page about checking the archives first. Should we start a subwage of this talk on the issue? Like ]. Or maybe someone would write an article ] whose talk will be used for all this? This is all discussed and settled for now. Let's discuss other article's improvements. --] 01:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC) |
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Hi everyone, |
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I am a new person at Wickipedia, made first edits a few days ago. My interest here for now is confined to Ukraine. Having read a good deal of various parts of the Kyiv vs Kiev debate here, I do not agree with those supporting the spelling "Kiev", and to that effect, I also do not agree in the slightest with what appears to be the current Wickipedia policy for resolving such issues (i.e., using "the prevailing usage form of a word in English"). There are strong reasons why I think this is not a sensible policy, and there are even stronger arguments for using Kyiv and not Kiev; but for now I am not going to go into that. My question now is procedural: to help save my time searching through all the rules and guides of Wickipedia, can someone please tell me what is the formal procedure that one would have to follow to change the spelling of "Kiev" to "Kyiv"? Your answer is much appreciated. Please note that I've seen the mentioning of some poll that was carried out here, and comments saying that the issue "is closed for now". My question is exactly about how to re-open this issue, conduct a new poll preceded by a new debate etc etc - a mechanism that can, procedurally, lead to this change. |
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Thank you, |
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] 12:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC) |
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:Hi, Serhiy. As you probably already understood by now, "Kiev" spelling is used per Misplaced Pages's "use English" guideline. If you are really serious in your desire to have it amended, a good starting point for you will be ], which should take care of most of your procedural questions. You may also review the ], which will provide additional information as to why the things are the way they are. Hope this helps.—] • (]); 17:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC) |
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== I am willing to take photos == |
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Hello. I am living in Kyiv now and I am willing to take photos (Metros, streets, buildings, statues... whatever) but would like to know what is most needed. Is there a list that I missed and if not can we come up with one? Thanks. ] 16:11, 12 February 2006 (UTC) |
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Publish them on Commons, Metro is desperately needed. Please register so that you have a talk page and I tell you details of what is required.--] 16:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC) |
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I've registered (as Greg.ory) what do I need to do for you to be able to post on my talk page? ] 16:33, 12 February 2006 (UTC) |
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:Nothing, just wait for me to post now...:)-] 17:10, 12 February 2006 (UTC) |
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== The Kyiv sound-bite == |
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The Ukrainian one, not the Russian one. It's barely intelligible, at least to my ears. It seems truncated and somewhat muffled. Maybe someone would like to re-record it and upload a better and improved version. ] 14:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC) |
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:Yes please, its difficult to make sense of the Kiev/Kyiv issue without knowing how the latter ought to sound. People tend to forget that simple convenience of pronunciation in the "host" language is an important issue in toponymy. ] 07:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC) |
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== Kyiv appear on the internet == |
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Recently surfing inernet i was surprised of numerous sites to use Kyiv. Here are some examples |
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* |
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* and during new user registration |
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* |
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] 10:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC) |
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: When I saw this post, I started surfing, and got thousands of hits for Kiyev. And that doesn't have the Ukrainian government and other Ukrainian nationalist institutions badgering English-speaking news organizations to adopt it! - '''] ('']'')''' 13:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC) |
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:: Are you proving that ''Kiyev'' is not an official spelling? I believe that the ongoing situation is that there was an official name change several years ago that Misplaced Pages refuses to recognize, contrary to other official name changes (], ], ], etc...). Not recognizing the name that a sovereign person/place/people call themselves is not only incredibly disrespectful, but will also result in a neverending string of inquiries and edits from those who know better. For instance, ] a little higher up.--] 15:59, 26 April 2006 (UTC) |
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::: The right of non-English speaking governments to prescribe the forms and vocabulary of the English language is doubtful, even more doubtful when the city of Kiev itself has two native names, a Russian and Ukrainian form. It would be POV to choose one over the other, especially as the actual English name is so dominant. I notice Ukrainian nationalists don't seem to care so much about Kiev's name on the wikipedias of other languages. Why is that? - '''] ('']'')''' 16:11, 26 April 2006 (UTC) |
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The only factor or at least the major factor is ''prevailing Modern English usage''. The latter is simplest to derive from surveying the ''MAJOR'' media, thus exlcuding small news outlets that don't have a consistent editiorial policy or editorial staff to proofread and enforce it and check other major encyclopedia. As per prevailing English usage I pushed moving Kharkov to Kharkiv, Lugansk to Luhansk, etc. For the very same reason, Kiev should not be moved, at least for now. Encyclopedia don't set the trends in English, they simply reflect them. If anyone is interested in the Major media survey, I can provide you with the data. I have access to restricted news search engines, like ], that unlike Google news, that checks on everything, allows to search exclusively through the international major papers. Also, check Britannica. |
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To remind, this superfactor (prevailing media usage) is only relevant for choosing the article title! In context usage inside article is a different matter. If the context for non-prevailing modern usage in the literature is established differently from the modern name, by all means use it. For instance, ''Kijow Voivodship'', ''Battle of Kharkov'' or ''Lwow University''. However, there is no historical context in the Western English language media where Kyiv is traditionally used, while even Kijow is used on rare occasion. This may be sad to some, but Misplaced Pages is the wrong place to address it, if you see it a problem. Encyclopedias reflect the usage rather than establish or promotes it. |
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I summarized the difference between the choice of the article title and the context usage ]. Now, Serhiy, please help us write articles rather than fight over terms. You work in adding content to Misplaced Pages would be very much appreciated. Please check the ] for things you can do. --] 16:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC) |
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Replace 'also written as Kiev' with 'outdated place-name Kiev' in the title block: as it misleadingly enable a russian promoted writing to continue being used. If clarification is needed, i propose to add 'formerly' into the statement as to emphasize its outdated nature. 204.48.92.168 (talk) 23:51, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
"Before Bogolyubsky's pillaging, Kyiv had had a reputation as one of the largest cities in the world, with a population exceeding 100,000 at the beginning of the 12th century" -
this strikes my as wildly overblown, from looking at the 11th-12th century city sizes list. 100,000 might have been large, for the region (although still considerably smaller than Constantinopole), but nowhere close to "one of the largest cities in the world", as that would have to compete with the likes of Baghdad and large cities in China. 2001:9E8:A344:B700:5070:174:C4AA:ACF4 (talk) 07:52, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
"Coming under Lithuania, then Poland and then Russia, the city would grow from a frontier market into an important center of Orthodox learning in the sixteenth century, and later of industry, commerce, and administration by the ninenteenth." Forvana (talk) 23:48, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
view · edit Frequently asked questions
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Not done The reality is that sources use Kiev, it is not misleading. See WP:KIEV for more. // Timothy :: talk 00:23, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
Not done for now: It's not clear why that's an improvement over the current formatting, especially in a narrow infobox. – macaddct1984 16:35, 1 October 2024 (UTC)