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| == |
== Heckewelder == | ||
| == Comment == | |||
| Here's a poorly cited quote + personal comment I removed from the article. -] (]) 19:25, 26 June 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi | |||
| More recently, in 2009 issue of the Bois Fort News, Dr. Linda Grover wrote "The Wallum Olum tells of the time before the Great Migration. This is an epic that begins with the Great Spirit creating the Earth, records the succession of families and clans, and recounts significant events such as visions, sicknesses, the Great Flood, the battle between | |||
| good and evil, and a much earlier migration from the west. It was translated into English | |||
| more than 200 ago, and although the translation is imperfect and clumsy the story and song is alive in its haunting, poetic beauty." Bois Fort News, Dr. Linda Grover. Mii gwetch, Lenni Lenapi." | |||
| :Linda Grover has no expertise for such a statement and the IP knows this as he's been involved in this article for a long time. And it is clear OR to add a general comment about Indian literature - sources need to discuss the subject. These are two separate issues and the IP is welcome to take the OR issue to ] and argue that it isn't original research and Linda Grover to ] and argue that she's a reliable source. ] (]) 20:02, 26 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Andrew Widget published in 2005 about Native American Indian Literature on the Walam Olum content: ::::http://books.google.com/books?id=6DOl6wnyHJ4C&lpg=PA90&dq=walam%20olum%20epic&pg=PA90#v=onepage&q&f=false | |||
| Another reliable source is Jace Weaver's Book: That the people might live: Native American literature | |||
| http://books.google.com/books?id=08SkJw26qoMC&lpg=PA48&dq=lekhibit&pg=PA48#v=onepage&q=lekhibit&f=false | |||
| See the following on page 11 for another detailed summary of the wallumolum. This is the source written by Dr. Linda Grover published in March 2009. | |||
| http://www.boisforte.com/documents/Feb-March.pdf | |||
| ::Dr. Grover is certainly an expert on this topic and more than qualified to make "such a statement" http://www.d.umn.edu/~amind/main/Grover.php | |||
| The Walam Olum may be a hoax, but John Heckewelder reported already in 1818 (!) in his book „Account of the History, Manners, and Customs of the Indian Nations who once inhabited Pennsylvania and the Neighboring States“ (Philadelphia, 1818) the narratives by the Lenni Lenape about the Talligewi/ALLIGEWI. | |||
| :::Ah, a different Grover. Hardly a detailed summary though. You seem to think she is better qualified than Oestricher - is that on the basis of the courses she teaches, eg AmIn 3420 American Indians in Sports, AmIn 4640 American Indians in the Movies, American Indian Women, and American Indians and the Media ? Her PhD is in Education. . | |||
| --] (]) 22:07, 7 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::I am also curious about why you are saying a 1994 book was published in 2005. And why a mysterious IP suddenly appears to save you from a 3RR warning. ] (]) 06:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | |||
| :::::You haven't answered my question about how 1994 became 2005. Yes, Grover teaches American Indian studies - Indians in the media, Indians in sport, etc. She has no relevant qualifications either that I can find. She seems to write some good fiction (I mean real fiction, you know, stories). Oestreicher not being a teacher is irrelevant, he has a number of published articles and is quoted in others and in books, all reliable sources. He's qualified to comment, Grover is not. ] (]) 14:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| {{outdent}}Note that using another IP to revert me looks like editwarring and hitting 3RR. ] (]) 15:13, 27 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :And for the IPs, the first claim being added to the article is irrelevant: the controversy about the WO isn't whether an appropriate critical interpretation is being used for Native American literature, but whether it's an example of Native American literature at all. The second looks like an end-run around the consensus that the WO is a forgery, and the author doesn't appear to have any authority for declaring it genuine: no background in Algonquian linguistics or literature, document forensics, or the like. As an opinion on the WO's literary value it ''might'' be valuable in some contexts, but the source is not a work on NA literature or a statement of the Lenape, but instead a newsletter from a non-Lenape group (the only apparent connection between the two is a distant linguistic one). ] (]) 03:15, 28 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | The book you link to was revised in 1876, which was ~40 years after the publication of the Walam Olum. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:28, 14 March 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | ||
| ::The IPs have both been blocked for a month as sockpuppets of indefinitely blocked Marburg72. See ]. ] (]) 06:29, 2 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Which parts may be correct == | |||
| Not that some random person on Misplaced Pages is anything to go by, but if the Creation story aspect is a full explanation of what is given in the document, it looks like the only parts that are wrong are the inclusion of Nanabush (aka Nanabuzho), which is an exclusive character to the Anishinaabeg cultural sphere, & probably bringing up some sort of creation war between a good spirit & an evil one. That seems Iroquoian- not that it's impossible for the Lenape to have taken some ideas from Iroquoian peoples into their stories, but it doesn't feel like it matches how Mediwiwin religion tends to work. I don't think it's outside of the question for there to be evil spirits in a Mediwiwin religion, but for them to get so deeply entwined in creation myth is weird for that culture. | |||
| :::Ojibwe Waasa Inaabidaa: Emmy Award winning movie on the Ojibwe, which includes the Wallum Olum. Companion Book Thomas Peacock and Marlene Wisuri. This is the story of the Anishinaabe, or Ojibwe people, who have lived on the North American continent for many thousands of years. Beginning in the dim past and continuing to the present, Ojibwe: We Look in All Directions chronicles in text, photography and illustration the saga of a still vibrant and evolving people, still strong in their ways. What is known of Ojibwe origins begins soon after the last ice age, recorded by their Lenape ancestors on bark tablets and song sticks in an epic poem, the Wallum Olum. | |||
| With the flood starting because of a frog spirit & a snake spirit- many of the Algonquian flood myths utilize a snake spirit, have the world saved by the tribal cultural hero & there seems to be a uniquely east coast tradition of stories involving either a frog or turtle keeping all the water for itself & something usually having to happen to pry it loose. I'd imagine, in the original version (& because Algonquian cultural heroes are usually tricksters in & of themselves), that the cultural hero may have gotten the two spirits fighting one another in an attempt to get the water, but made a grievous error in judgement, causing the flood which he then had to help rectify himself. | |||
| http://www.ojibwe.org/ | |||
| I imagine almost all of the "history" may be fictionalized. Algonquians didn't have a real writing system. They did have sacred bark scrolls of pictographs, which were used to help pass down stories, but it's more of a visual aid sort of circumstance. I have to suspect that the man got scrolls & had the stories involved explained in part to him, or had a written account of an explanation which he, himself, could follow, & mixed everything all up with a billion other things he heard from all over the place. ] (]) 02:13, 29 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| http://www.ojibwe.org/home/about_anish_timeline.html <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :@] thanks, but our articles are meant to be based on reliably published sources. That's what should be discussed here. This page really isn't for discussion of the subject of the article. ] ] 10:54, 29 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Continued edits concerning Ojibwe.org == | |||
| == Another source == | |||
| As has already been brought up here and at the ], this is not an acceptable reference for the stated ] claim. ] (]) 00:50, 22 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| discusses where some of Raf's language came from, etc. ] ] 14:07, 12 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Morons of Misplaced Pages, read the sources provided "Pre-Contact-1500 BC - The epic story of the west to east migration of the Lenni Lanape, ancient ancestors of the Anishinabe people, begins and is recorded as the Wallum Olum (an ancient written record on bark tablets and song sticks). It is the oldest written record of people in North America and dates back to before 1600 B.C." <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:13, 4 August 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ::Personal attacks aren't going to help you convince anyone, especially those of use familiar with Delaware oral history, that this hoax is anything other than a hoax. -] (]) 20:37, 4 August 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi | |||
| ::: Ojibwe is different than Delaware, range block this you morons <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:06, 4 August 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ::::Guthrie on the Wallum Olum in NEARA Journal v38-1, 1994: "Some scholars think the Walam Olum actually existed and that the glyphs are authentic. In recent years, however, David M. Oestreichester has argued - mainly on linguistic grounds - that both the signs and the song were contrived by Rafinesque as part of a scheme to pad his fame by winning the Prix Volney of 1200 francs, offered by the Royal Institute of France in 1834. He (Oestreicher) thinks Rafinesque modified authentic pictographs to create an imaginary story, and demonstrates that whoever "deciphered" the Lenape song had a mediocre grasp of the Delaware language and probably worked from dictionaries, concluding that Rafinesque "translated" from English to Delaware to create a hoax. I have doubts about Oestreicher's claims. Several illustrated oral histories are known, and there is no actual evidence that Rafinesque invented the story or glyphs. He (Rafinesque) was eccentric and vain, but had already made his mark with legitimate, if sloppy, scholarship in several fields. Oestreicher's smug exposé reads too much like other "just-so" stories developed to explain away American "writing" at the expense of the messenger. Still, what became of the sticks? Is the word Olum connected to Ollamh, the highest class of Irish bards, who related oral history from a bundle of inscribed boards? Or did Rafinesque cleverly invent the word to lend credence to his hoax? The whole case is intriguing. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:06, 7 August 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
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Heckewelder
The Walam Olum may be a hoax, but John Heckewelder reported already in 1818 (!) in his book „Account of the History, Manners, and Customs of the Indian Nations who once inhabited Pennsylvania and the Neighboring States“ (Philadelphia, 1818) the narratives by the Lenni Lenape about the Talligewi/ALLIGEWI. --109.193.152.145 (talk) 22:07, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
The book you link to was revised in 1876, which was ~40 years after the publication of the Walam Olum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.87.188.191 (talk) 23:28, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Which parts may be correct
Not that some random person on Misplaced Pages is anything to go by, but if the Creation story aspect is a full explanation of what is given in the document, it looks like the only parts that are wrong are the inclusion of Nanabush (aka Nanabuzho), which is an exclusive character to the Anishinaabeg cultural sphere, & probably bringing up some sort of creation war between a good spirit & an evil one. That seems Iroquoian- not that it's impossible for the Lenape to have taken some ideas from Iroquoian peoples into their stories, but it doesn't feel like it matches how Mediwiwin religion tends to work. I don't think it's outside of the question for there to be evil spirits in a Mediwiwin religion, but for them to get so deeply entwined in creation myth is weird for that culture.
With the flood starting because of a frog spirit & a snake spirit- many of the Algonquian flood myths utilize a snake spirit, have the world saved by the tribal cultural hero & there seems to be a uniquely east coast tradition of stories involving either a frog or turtle keeping all the water for itself & something usually having to happen to pry it loose. I'd imagine, in the original version (& because Algonquian cultural heroes are usually tricksters in & of themselves), that the cultural hero may have gotten the two spirits fighting one another in an attempt to get the water, but made a grievous error in judgement, causing the flood which he then had to help rectify himself.
I imagine almost all of the "history" may be fictionalized. Algonquians didn't have a real writing system. They did have sacred bark scrolls of pictographs, which were used to help pass down stories, but it's more of a visual aid sort of circumstance. I have to suspect that the man got scrolls & had the stories involved explained in part to him, or had a written account of an explanation which he, himself, could follow, & mixed everything all up with a billion other things he heard from all over the place. Bobbotronica (talk) 02:13, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Bobbotronica thanks, but our articles are meant to be based on reliably published sources. That's what should be discussed here. This page really isn't for discussion of the subject of the article. Doug Weller talk 10:54, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Another source
discusses where some of Raf's language came from, etc. Doug Weller talk 14:07, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
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