| Revision as of 16:50, 27 August 2012 editIan.thomson (talk | contribs)58,562 edits →Propaganda article?← Previous edit |
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{{Notice|Please note that the Anders Behring Breivik "manifesto" (''2083 - A European Declaration of Independence'') is considered a ], and its use must adhere to the ]. Avoid adding content that engages in analyzing, synthesizing, interpreting, or evaluating the manifesto. Any interpretation of the manifesto must be based on a ] secondary source. |
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{{Old AfD multi| date = 2011-07-23 | result = '''Keep''' | page = Anders Behring Breivik }} |
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{{notice|Please note that the Anders Behring Breivik "manifesto" (''2083 - A European Declaration of Independence'') is considered a ], and its use must adhere to the ]. Avoid adding content that engages in analyzing, synthesizing, interpreting, or evaluating the manifesto. Any interpretation of the manifesto must be based on a ] secondary source. |
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== Help == |
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Can someone with editing privileges revert the statement "Norwegian nationalism" to "white nationalism" in the introduction section? I don't know who changed it, or why that person has editing privileges and I don't, but we discussed this at length earlier. Furthermore, of the many alternative titles to the sentiments we were trying to capture with the label "white nationalist," Norwegian nationalist makes the least amount of sense, and stinks somewhat of sympathizing euphemism. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:55, 17 April 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Given that the source cited clearly says 'Hvit nasjonalist'(White nationalist), I've changed it back. ] (]) 15:16, 17 April 2012 (UTC) |
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:"Norwegian nationalist" makes perfect sense seeing as how he is an advocate of Norway as a state for ethnic Norwegians, not "white" people. There is a difference between "white" and "Norwegian" and Breivik clearly is concerned more with the latter. Perhaps you think that labeling him a "Norwegian nationalist" is a sympathetic euphemism, but I think labeling him a "white nationalist" is just an attempt to roll him into the the "white supremacist", "Neo-Nazi" category with all of its associations. Perhaps you don't realize that "nation" actually means a people, or ethnic group. --] (]) 12:12, 7 July 2012 (UTC) |
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::I have reviewed the source for "white nationalist" and come to the conclusion that it is a sub-standard source without corroboration. In fact, we have a contradiction for this label elsewhere in the article. I have therefore removed the label and also other text referenced from the same source, a U.S. PhD student. __] (]) 21:33, 7 July 2012 (UTC) |
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:::I'm glad that "white nationalism" was removed, but I have my doubts about the use of "ultranationalism" as well. I don't think that had been there before. First, later on in the article we have Thomas Hegghammer saying that he's not an "ultranationalist." Additionally, I can't find the term being used in the Washington Post article source. The "ultranationalism" link sends you to the paragraph definition, most of which sounds nothing like what Breivik believed in. Authoritarianism, demagoguery of leadership, tight control over business, genocide do not fit the bill for Breivik. That sounds a lot like fascism and National Socialism, both of which Breivik was vehemently opposed to. The only overlap is reduction or stoppage of immigration and deportation of foreigners. Broadly speaking, "ethnic nationalism" is a much better fit. "Norwegian nationalism" is more specific. I think the reluctance to label him a "Norwegian nationalist" is due to a confusion between "civic nationalism" and "ethnic nationalism." True "nations" are ethnic groups and the original meaning of "nationalism" was "ethnic nationalism." I think people are reluctant to say he's a "Norwegian nationalist" because they think it strips the focus away from the fact that he was concerned with ethnicity and culture, and not simply "the state" of Norway. "Norwegian ethno-nationalist"? It's actually redundant. --] (]) 22:07, 7 July 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Now, I read the ''Washington Post'' article from July 25, 2011 which was used to support the labels ''ultranationalism'', ''right-wing populism'' and ''islamophobia''. I couldn't find it mentioning any of the three. I wonder what is behind that. Perhaps sources have become mixed up in the editing process. In any case, I removed the first two but left ''islamophobia'' since that seems well established and uncontroversial, and I also removed the source from the article altogether since it was only used to reference information which it actually didn't mention. __] (]) 08:16, 8 July 2012 (UTC) |
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@ElkanahTingley. Actually, "ethno-nationalist" wouldn't be redundant since the latin word "natio" can refer both to the greek "demos" as well as the greek "ethnos". In modern Europe, first Nationalists were Democrats (not neccessarily Republicans, and don't mix these terms up with the U.S.-parties) who refused imperial rule as well as ] and proclaimed a (then often non existing) independent and unified nation state. It was later, when these nation states already had been established, when nationalist beliefs began to shift towards ethnically "clean" and homogeneous states. However, according to most of his writings, Breivik doesn't interest himself so much for the "purity of blood" (or does he? - I haven't read them all) but more for some kind of "purity of a monolithic christian culture". True? So maybe the right expression for that kinda standpoint still has to be found.--] (]) 09:33, 25 August 2012 (UTC) |
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== Zionism == |
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I urge you to delete the suggestion that Breivik's manifesto supports Zionism. Seeing as Breivik is a white supremacist and his writings show no understanding of zionism, it is hard to see how he should sympathise with the plight of the Jewish people. It is at the very least controversial, but most likely an insidious accusation to mention zionism it in the same sentence as right-wing populism, Islamophobia, and anti-feminism. This politicised comparison intends to defame Zionism by linking it to a vicious white supremacist killer is in clear violation of Misplaced Pages's policies. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:17, 19 April 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:We don't remove sourced material simply because ]. Good sources like the Jerusalem Post have demonstrated that zionism is an essential part of his worldview. ] (]) 00:10, 21 April 2012 (UTC) |
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Breivik is not racist (Islam is not a race, nor are women a race) and thus by definition not a white supremacist. He is a far-right terrorist/revolutionary/nutjob (select your viewpoint) and a pro-zionist. This is fact. We can't change facts you don't like, sorry. |
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] (]) 05:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC) |
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::I agree, Breivik is definitely not a white supremacist, which is a US-centric term not very relevant in Norway anyway. He is primarily an Islamophobe. Support for Israel plays a major role in his worldview. In his manifesto, he describes his main goal as "A cultural conservative approach where monoculturalism, moral, the nuclear family, a free market, ''support for Israel'' and our Christian cousins of the east, law and order and Christendom itself must be central aspects (unlike now)". He was also a member of the Progress Party, the only party in Norway to declare itself as hardline pro-Israel while all the other parties take a nuanced or critical approach to Israel. He also wrote for the website ], a hard right website known for its support for Israel and anti-Muslim commentary. ] (]) 08:25, 21 April 2012 (UTC) |
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:::It is also important to distinguish Breivik's views from other European far-right movements, many of which are anti-Semetic and race-based. However, it might be appropriate to show that he advocates a homeland for Muslims just like he advocates homelands for Jews, Hindus, Japanese, and Norwegians. He is against Muslims in "his country" and against Europeans in theirs. He has this obsession with mono-cultures. This would explain his pro-Zionism. ] (]) 12:16, 21 April 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Breivik is a nationalist. He believes every nation needs a home, no matter what. He isn't an Islamophobe per se (although he definitively dislikes Islam) he just doesn't want it in the Christian world. In the end of the day, he openly admitted to thinking of using Al Qaeda tactics. An Islamophobe would never admit that. That is why he attacked what he called "traitors" and "cultural marxists" and not muslims like most would expect to ] (]) 08:45, 23 April 2012 (UTC) |
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:::: His fews aren't that "right wing extremist" either. What he says isn't "extreme" that only the 5% on the extreme right would share it. It's pretty close to the center. Although many wouldn't openly say it, if they'd be honest, they'd agree with him on his stance on muslims, immigration, repopulation of Norway, multiculturalism, etc. --] (]) 18:58, 28 April 2012 (UTC) |
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::::: I agree, his views on many things isn't really the view of an extreme minority. The problems that he highlight regarding islam in non-Muslim countries such a Norway is agreed upon by many, if not the majority of the population in Europe (and elsewhere i guess). However, his ciminal and horrible actions is what clearly makes him an extremist. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:46, 11 June 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::::::Agreed upon by many? Really? Got some proof? |
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::::::By is own words, he was a supporter of the state of Israel and was against anti-semitism. He was a sick person, thats not the point but his far-right ideology is different from nazism and white supremacy groups. I can quote from the "Jerusalem Post" article: "In one passage, he lashes out at the Western media, which he accuses of unfairly focusing on the wrongdoing of Jews./ “Western Journalists again and again systematically ignore serious Muslim attacks and rather focus on the Jews,” he wrote./ Breivik also took a jab at leftwing Jews./ “Jews that support multi-culturalism today are as much of a threat to Israel and Zionism as they are to us,” he continued./ “So let us fight together with Israel, with our Zionist brothers against all anti-Zionists, against all cultural Marxists/multiculturalists.”/ He also stated that Israel is the homeland for Jews largely due to the persecution suffered by Jews at the hands of Muslims, saying “if one acknowledges that Islam has always oppressed the Jews, one accepts that Israel was a necessary refuge for the Jews fleeing not only the European, but also the Islamic variety of anti- Judaism.”] (]) 01:51, 14 August 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::This is funny. You could just say that he oppose Islam and any multicultural involve with them. To refer it to "Zionism" just induce hate. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:42, 24 August 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::::::::This is devolving into a discussion of the topic in general. Please take that elsewhere. this is not the place to share our personal views on what is and isn't mainstream, etc. This is specifically a place to suggest and discuss specific changes to the article.This, by policy, not a forum.] (]) 20:15, 24 August 2012 (UTC) |
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== Profanity In the First Line == |
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Could someone with editing priveleges remove the "Cowardly Murdering Nazi Shitstain" line from the first paragraph. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Someone has fixed it. __] (]) 18:30, 7 June 2012 (UTC) |
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== June 8 edits re: psychiatric evaluation == |
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I don't think Malt's testimony should be included in the psychiatric evaluation section since this was a private prosecution witness who testified that he was not actually giving a diagnosis. He was commenting on aspects of the first two psychiatric reports and giving possible alternative avenues for diagnostic exploration. Malt testified that he has not spoken to or examined Breivik. I also think it's improper to include Breivik in the category of persons with Asperger's. He has not been given that diagnosis. <b class="nounderlines" style="border:1px solid #999;background:#fff"><span style="font-family:papyrus,serif">]]</span></b> 21:53, 8 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:For example see this article: wherein it is reported that Malt testified that he is not making a final diagnosis of Breivik and only giving context to the differences between the two earlier reports. <b class="nounderlines" style="border:1px solid #999;background:#fff"><span style="font-family:papyrus,serif">]]</span></b> 22:13, 8 June 2012 (UTC) |
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== Images at Flickr == |
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If we can't get photos about this person, why not use pictures like portraits? |
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Here is some I found: http://www.flickr.com/photos/home_of_chaos/7262012920/ ] (]) 14:12, 13 July 2012 (UTC) |
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:That is not a ] licenced image. __] (]) 11:58, 2 August 2012 (UTC) |
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::But non-free images are permissable where it isn't possible to create a real one. And it will never be possible to create a free one of Breivik.--] (]) 13:46, 7 August 2012 (UTC) |
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:::I don't understand why not. Of course obtaining photos of him is and will remain possible. He's not tucked away in a secret dungeon. __] (]) 16:55, 7 August 2012 (UTC) |
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::::I was looking at Flickr and found these: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=anders+breivik&l=commderiv&ct=0&mt=all&adv=1 I know the photos with the red shirt is non-free. What choise do we have? ] (]) 18:41, 17 August 2012 (UTC) |
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== Oh wise non-anonymous Misplaced Pages editors == |
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This-- |
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"In it he lays out his worldview, which includes opposition to feminism, Islamophobia, Zionism and India's right-wing Hindu groups." |
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--makes it seem like he opposes Islamophobia, Zionism, India's righ..blah, blah, blah, when clearly that was not the intent. Could one of you registered Misplaced Pages users please add "and support for" in front of "Islamophobia" to clarify? This poor, unworthy of editing, anonymous user begs your majesties. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:08, 2 August 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Fixed. And registering is nothing special, really, just ]. ] (]) 01:14, 2 August 2012 (UTC) |
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::Thank you. Nah, I prefer to have the "original" Misplaced Pages experience from the early 2000s when most people could edit most pages, registered or not. ;) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:37, 2 August 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:::They still can as a general rule. Some pages have added restrictions for specific reasons. __] (]) 11:56, 2 August 2012 (UTC) |
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== ] == |
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I have added ], I am not sure how to link it from this article, could someone do it? Thank you ] (]) 11:11, 19 August 2012 (UTC) |
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==Understanding the sentence== |
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When someone is sentenced to "forvaring" (containment) (see http://no.wikipedia.org/Forvaring ), they receive a "time frame" (tidsramme) and a "minimum time" (minstetid). The maximum time frame is 21 years and the maximum minimum time is 10 years. A containment sentence can theoretically be extended indefinitely, as long as the convict is considered a danger to society. A containment sentence with a time frame of 21 years and a minimum time of 10 years is the maximum penalty in Norway and roughly equal to "life sentences" in other European countries. (a "life sentence" elsewhere usually means you serve 15-25 years). ] (]) 10:39, 24 August 2012 (UTC) |
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:The translation of "forvaring" found in any judicial books is "preventive detention" or "preventive custody". Kriminalomsorgen uses "preventive detention" . So, 21 years + 5 years + 5 years + 5 years + ... + 5 years, until dead because of old age or something else. ] (]) 14:28, 24 August 2012 (UTC) |
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::Thanks for correcting this translation. ] (]) 20:45, 24 August 2012 (UTC) |
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== Moved to Talk page == |
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Once again, it's not quite correct that he was sentenced to "21 years in jail". If you get sentenced to preventive detention, you are formally ''sentenced to preventive detention'' with a time frame and a minimum time. The time frame is 21 years, but it doesn't mean you'll be in prison for 21 years, it could be less or it could be more. After the minimum time, he can be evaluated for a possible release. ] (]) 20:45, 24 August 2012 (UTC) |
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Moved to Talk page: "He applied for parole in 2022, which the Court rejected , and subsequently appealed" ... .--Other than the above, non-optimal presentation, the article seems to be getting things right. ] (]) 18:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC) |
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==The lead== |
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The lead is too long. It also gives the killer far too much of the kind of coverage he craved - almost bordering on a bizarre kind of justification. Those who have worked so much on this article might consider reducing some of it a little. Breivik was, after all, just another mass-murdering crank intent on getting his name in the media. ] (]) 15:13, 24 August 2012 (UTC) |
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== Category:Farmer == |
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:: Agreed! The lead needs to be stripped down and yes, Anders is, just what you described. |
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<span style="text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em; class=texhtml"><b style="color:#000"><b>"....We are all Kosh...."</b>]</b></span> 15:14, 24 August 2012 (UTC) |
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He registered a company, and said that its category would be "Farming".--He rented a property, a farm, so that no one would be alarmed by him buying tons of chemicals that are used to make bombs.--To my knowledge he has '''not''' '''farmed''' one square yard of land.--Perhaps one could stretch things, and say that he was the owner of a one-man farming company (that did not employ any farmers).--Please remove Category:Farmer.--Good luck! ] (]) 17:59, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
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In fact, 4 paragraphs is the recommended length per MOS, so the lead is geneally not too long. However, I've removed two sentences of hypothetical nature regarding what could happen if he were judged to be insane, as it seems unncessary to have this in the lead now. ] (]) 20:40, 24 August 2012 (UTC) |
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:Agreed, it is a silly category, and not remotely a 'defining characteristic' per ]. I've removed it. ] (]) 18:03, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:The lead is '''full of pov wording'''! "Terrorist" is a pov term and should not be used in Misplaced Pages articles. "Far right" is a pov term that should also not be used (and the meanings of "far right" or "far left" vary greatly from country to country). "Militant ideology" is also pov. Brevik’s manifesto was not "Islamophobia, support of Zionism and opposition to feminism" – that is just the opinion of certain commentators who have characterised its content thus. "Attrocities" is also pov. ] 16:02, 27 August 2012 (UTC) |
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== Information Needed on Breivik's Pro-Bono Legal Corporations == |
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==Inspired by Enoch Powell?== |
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It would be quite helpful if this Wiki site included information or links on investigation into the funding sources and corporate, education, and social networks of Øystein Storrvik and Geir Lippestad legal firms. |
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In his speech today he stated: "These preventive attacks prove that Enoch Powell is right and ethnic civil war is beginning," he told the court in his testimony. "He said 'rivers of blood will flow through our streets'. Unfortunately nobody listened to him." (). Can we add this? ] (]) 22:35, 24 August 2012 (UTC) |
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:Possibly. What do others think? Do we have more references to ]? __] (]) 09:26, 25 August 2012 (UTC) |
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::Given that the ''Telegraph'' describes this as a "rambling testimony", it would seem highly questionable to pick out references to particular individuals. ] (]) 16:33, 27 August 2012 (UTC) |
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While an almost-obfuscatory blizzard of questions have been raised on this webpage around "What is sanity?" (And more obliquely, perhaps: "What are the limits of a democratic society?"), Breivik/Hansen's ideological work and dogged tactics suggest continued support by the larger global Antienlightenment/military-feudal restoration community that has not been criminalized outside Norway, but has rather risen to ideological and political leadership globally. To understand Breivik/Hansen, it seems most pertinent to understand the community of extraordinary ongoing support. Given their extraordinary donation of valuable legal expertise and time in a country in which public funding for criminal defense is the norm, Øystein Storrvik and Geir Lippestad are obvious connections to such a national and international Antienlightenment, military-feudal restoration community. ] (]) 02:07, 7 December 2024 (UTC) |
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==Propaganda article?== |
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:Any connection ' between your ideas and the article, seem ' a little , to the say the least. Maybe, when the trial verdict has been fully digested, they'll bring out the ]? ] (]) 21:50, 9 December 2024 (UTC) |
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I've already noted the overuse of pov terms in the article lead. There are alsos many worrying aspects about the body of the article. Why is there '''no content at all''' about the choice of the targets? Why is there '''no content at all''' about the political and social context of the events, and their specificity to Norway? Why is the content about the attacks reduced to a few sentences while the trial section given enormous coverage? An article about a person should be concentrate on the things that person has done or written about, not to things that were out of that person's immediate control (like, in this case, the trial). ] 16:13, 27 August 2012 (UTC) |
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== Post-2012 criminal history of Anders Breivik == |
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:Sorry? You are describing an article about a mass murderer as 'propaganda'? On who's behalf? Are you suggesting that there is some sort of covert anti-mass-murder conspiracy involved in writing the article? ] (]) 16:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC) |
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Hello, I was thinking about starting an article about the ]. Thoughts?--] (]) 15:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC) |
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::. That's how the sources (rather accurately) describe him, so I have to conclude that the problem lies in Meowy's perceptions, not the article. |
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::Meowy, the reason we don't focus on what he's written is because Breivik is terrible bigot, conspiracy theorist, and only barely sane; and so we instead go with what is written about Breivik. Most of those sources concluded he was far-right (seeing how he was a strong nationalist opposed to liberalism, socialism, communism, and multiculturalism, that's a pretty apt description) and a terrorist (he committed violent acts and threatened more to try to scare people into complying with his batshit ideology, that's terrorism). Most of the sources focus on the trial because the shooting was only one day, while the trial has gone on a long time. That's why the article is written the way it is, not because of some bias. Any perception of bias is your fault. ] (]) 16:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC) |
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Moved to Talk page: "He applied for parole in 2022, which the Court rejected , and subsequently appealed" ... .--Other than the above, non-optimal presentation, the article seems to be getting things right. 2001:2020:309:B058:78E0:9B13:8404:F359 (talk) 18:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
He registered a company, and said that its category would be "Farming".--He rented a property, a farm, so that no one would be alarmed by him buying tons of chemicals that are used to make bombs.--To my knowledge he has not farmed one square yard of land.--Perhaps one could stretch things, and say that he was the owner of a one-man farming company (that did not employ any farmers).--Please remove Category:Farmer.--Good luck! 2001:2020:31B:F0E4:F5AB:882D:9E1C:B78F (talk) 17:59, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
It would be quite helpful if this Wiki site included information or links on investigation into the funding sources and corporate, education, and social networks of Øystein Storrvik and Geir Lippestad legal firms.
While an almost-obfuscatory blizzard of questions have been raised on this webpage around "What is sanity?" (And more obliquely, perhaps: "What are the limits of a democratic society?"), Breivik/Hansen's ideological work and dogged tactics suggest continued support by the larger global Antienlightenment/military-feudal restoration community that has not been criminalized outside Norway, but has rather risen to ideological and political leadership globally. To understand Breivik/Hansen, it seems most pertinent to understand the community of extraordinary ongoing support. Given their extraordinary donation of valuable legal expertise and time in a country in which public funding for criminal defense is the norm, Øystein Storrvik and Geir Lippestad are obvious connections to such a national and international Antienlightenment, military-feudal restoration community. Fanboi Chau (talk) 02:07, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
