| Revision as of 07:35, 7 September 2012 editSineBot (talk | contribs)Bots2,555,951 editsm Dating comment by Rtmcrrctr - "→RfC: Critiques of Ryan RNC Speech: "← Previous edit |
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== Feedback to Good Article Review == |
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I would note that I concur with the Reviewer pretty much in all the points of his preliminary review and I would concur in his preliminary conclusion that the article currently does not meet the criteria for Good Article status. Nothing that I see in the review that I am inclined to disagree with. ] (]) 18:17, 29 August 2012 (UTC) |
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:I also think it's a good review. My one concern is where it notes that a section is "heavy on critical remarks" rather than sympathetic ones. Neutral is not the same as balanced; we should be guided by the facts (as expressed in reliable sources), not by a "one for you and one for me" philosophy. However, since I agree with all the specific concerns given, that's a minor quibble; I expect that this review will improve the article significantly. ] (]) 19:37, 29 August 2012 (UTC) |
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::Balance means to give everything its proper weight and my point in the review is that currently there is ] being given to critical opinions over supportive ones. In this respect balance and neutrality are essentially the same thing.--] (]) 21:21, 29 August 2012 (UTC) |
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No sir, that is not what balance is at Misplaced Pages. "'''Neutrality''' assigns '''weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence'''. However, '''when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both approaches and work for balance."''' It is not EVERYTHING being given proper weight in the article but only if they are of equal validity. "A '''neutral characterization of disputes requires presenting viewpoints with a consistently impartial tone'''; otherwise articles end up as partisan commentaries even while presenting all '''relevant''' points of view." ]--] (]) 01:34, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:I believe "equal validity" is covered under "proper weight" as something of less validity is not given proper weight by elevating it to equal status. This is not a case of equal validity being an issue, however. Many groups and individuals of some significance support Ryan's positions and this is not adequately reflected in the article's present state.--] (]) 18:07, 4 September 2012 (UTC) |
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It seems to me that the details of the personal life section range out of reasonable biography into a listing of virutally every detail that could be mined from sources. 7th grade basketball? father's secretary called him at work? Why are these relevant? |
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] (]) 05:44, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:The material about the call from his father's secretary was clearly relevant as it is what prompted Ryan to go home where he found his father dead and the death of his father is obviously significant to Ryan's bio.--] (]) 18:07, 4 September 2012 (UTC) |
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== Why is there no article on Janna Ryan but there was one on Jill Biden? == |
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There was also one on Todd Palin made right away. Why is Janna being shielded off? ] (]) 23:37, 29 August 2012 (UTC) |
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:I personally think the creation of the article on ], created on August 23, 2008, was jumping the gun. IF, Romney/Ryan wins, as soon as they went "over the top" according to electoral votes as verified by a reliable source, then I think it would be appropriate to create an article on Janna Ryan as the presumptive incoming "second lady." Until then, it would be inappropriate to created a separate article for her, UNLESS, she does something significantly notable in her own right, which there is no evidence of to this point. ] (]) 03:37, 30 August 2012 (UTC) |
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::Our enforcement of notability has tightened a little since 2007–08. I don't imagine Jill Biden would have an article today until after the election. Palin's different since he was the spouse of a chief executive, rather than a legislator, and that tends to put one in a gray area of notability (see ], ]). Throw in his racing career and he's borderline notable. I don't think Janna Ryan is anywhere close, unless she does something significant unrelated to her marriage. —] (]) 13:16, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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== Marathon time material == |
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I removed some material about Ryan claiming to run a marathon in 3 hours. Maybe, big maybe, include this in 6 months if it goes to court over it or becomes a professional runner, ect. --] (]) 12:36, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Yeah, I don't see the big deal about it either. Doesn't really add anything to the article. '''] ]''' 13:36, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:: It's a big deal for any serious runner: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4785636&page=0 So if ''real'' achievements are relevant enough for a politician's bio (see ]'s Ironman), then also heavily aggrandized ones. --] (]) 14:20, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Not that it really matters, but it really doesn't even matter to them. If every time someone stated a wrong time, mistaken or otherwise, they would have a hundred million instances to be upset over and would have all jumped off buildings by now. The people who it really "matters" to are the the folks trying to get Obama/Biden elected who see a benefit from trying to give this trivia more airplay. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 14:47, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::''If every time someone stated a wrong time, mistaken or otherwise, they would have a hundred million instances to be upset over and would have all jumped off buildings by now.'' That's nonsense. Lying about your personal best is the worst thing you can do in the running community - and nowadays it is quite stupid because the results are available on the internet. ''The people who it really "matters" to are the the folks trying to get Obama/Biden elected who see a benefit from trying to give this trivia more airplay.'' - Who cares about the motivations of the people spreading these news? If it gets enough "airplay", it's relevant. And now it is not only , , and (with a ), it's also ]: --] (]) 15:14, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::Just because talkheads bring this up doesn't mean we parrot it here unless there is consensus to do so. You keep mentioning other stuff that is trivial. Please bring that stuff up for removal since I actually agree with you about that other stuff. --] (]) 15:54, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::Maybe add to the campaighn article. Those sub articles are so sleezy that this would be a perfect fit. --] (]) 15:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::One good candidate for removal, is the "fact checking" material about his recent speech. All of that "fact checking" '''''didn't even allege one factually wrong statement''''', it's just debating slanted "compare and conrast" inferences, in other words, providing a soapbox for debating points of his opponents. So, our "coverage" of the speech has nothing about the speech but instead consists mostly spin talking points by his opponents. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 18:23, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::Any editor is free to add material to a Misplaced Pages article. Instead of spending your time ], why don't you spend your time more constructively by ]? -- ] (]) 18:47, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::(added later) Good point which addresses 1/2 of what I said. The other half is about the crap this is in. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 21:31, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Any editor is free to edit a Misplaced Pages article. That can be just as constructive as adding material... -- ] (]) 21:38, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Of course. I was just making the point in talk. Sincerely, <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 22:18, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::Other than possibly making Ryan look dishonest, I don't see anything objectionable about the marathon material. And making him look dishonest is perfectly fine so long as reliable sources say he ''is'' dishonest, such as the fact-checkers who found lies in his speech. ] (]) 21:07, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:I don't see how we can deem Ryan misrepresenting his best marathon time by over an hour (and misrepresenting that he has completed multiple marathons rather than just one), yet include mentions of P90X and supposedly climbing a bunch of Fourteeners. How can we justify including athletic info that paints him in a positive light, but then saying the marathon time lie is irrelevant to a politician bio. By that logic, isn't the Fourteener stuff even less relevant that the marathon debacle. Furthermore, we know about the marathon time because a media source (Runner's World) actually did independent reporting and detailing the investigating they did. The source for the Fourteener claim doesn't go into detail. From that source, I have no idea whether Paul just the reporter or whether any independent investigation was done at all regarding which mountains Ryan has climbed. --] (]) 04:43, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::I agree. Beyond that, as GirasoleDE notes upthread, it's been covered in the mainstream media -- ''Runner's World'', Huffington Post, Slate, the ''New Yorker'', and to that list I'll add the websites of ABC News(), ''The Atlantic'' (), and Mediaite (). Even if supporters of Ryan complain that this particular lie of his is being given too much attention, they're in the same position as Obama supporters who complained that the Jeremiah Wright baloney was given too much attention. We do include things that achieve media notoriety, even if the high-minded Misplaced Pages editors conclude in their infinite wisdom that the media attention is misplaced. ]<small> ] ]</small> 09:52, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::I agree. And now we can add the Los Angeles Times to the mainstream media: ''.'' --] (]) 10:57, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::This is the key point. Virtually every national news source has its own article about the marathon claim right now, and the AP and Bloomberg have written articles which are being widely distributed. If it is notable enough to receive coverage from essentially all major news outlets, then it should not be deleted from the article solely on the grounds that it is insufficiently notable. -- ] (]) 15:43, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Do no editors even read WP guidelines like ]? ] (]) 15:55, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::I think you're misunderstanding the point for those rules. With notable figures, we don't want wikipedia to be a diary because the articles would become clogged and unreadable. This does not mean that media coverage is not a guide to notability. This is particularly true in articles about politics where people have widely divergent (and frequently politically convenient) subjective interpretations about what is or is not notable. The personal life section is not at risk of becoming excessively long, and much of the material in it is less notable as measured by media coverage. Therefore I am reinserting the two sentences that I included before. -- ] (]) 16:27, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::I think you don't understand what it is at all. This is clearly a ] issue which is very unlikely to have any longlasting impact. ] (]) 22:24, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::Simply linked to ] is not an effective rebuttal. It says that most newsworthy events don't need to be included in Misplaced Pages. It doesn't say which ones don't make it. So it's incumbent on people arguing for exclusion to get into the specifics for their view. This is even more clearly the case since the pre-existing consensus on the page was apparently that Ryan's recreational athletic exploits should be included. Ryan's supposed participation in P90X, mountain climbing, and bow hunting have been included for a while. Now, when there's an athletics story that casts Ryan is a negative light, suddenly this is verboten (while the positive stuff was okay). Keep those in but leaving the marathon is a clear-cut pro-Ryan bias. This is not a close case. It's a crystal clear double standard. But not addressing this issue (which I brought above), it seems like the exclusionist are conceding the point. The marathon story is just as worthy for inclusion. If anything, it's a better inclusion than those other matters, since it was covered by numerous news source, came during remarks to political radio host in the midst of a political campaign, etc. It's also raised a debate about honesty, whereas the other stuff is just about recreation. --] (]) 22:53, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::JamesAM, I actually agree with your last point. This has zero to do with Ryan's physical feats, and everything to do with his character, or lack of it as some would paint this. I would only include it in the campaighn sub-article if at all. --] (]) 00:04, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::::If you think my last point was that "this has zero to do with Ryan's physical feats", then you overlooked something. I said the marathon issue is "also" about honesty. Meaning it's additional about honesty. The fact that Ryan ran one marathon at age 20 in a time of 4 hours, 1 minute, and some seconds is about physical feats. The other stuff is "just" about recreation (assuming it's not also shown to be false, as opposed to the marathon being about recreation and honesty. --] (]) 03:41, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' What a worthless, non-notable, and mundane snippet of information to add.--] ]</font> 16:08, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Get over it! The news has travelled across the pond: - . --] (]) 17:00, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:You make it sound like we live in an age where messages must travel by boat! Anyone with an internet connection could have heard of it, that logic is utterly pointless. ] (]) 22:24, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::If there is huge coverage, add it to the campaighn sub-article where this election cycle gotcha stuff belongs. --] (]) 23:59, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Words have meaning. Something isn't ] just because one labels it that. Ryan made his remarks during a review with ], a friendly figure for conservative Republicans. Then, reporters simply fact-checked the claim. That doesn't correspond with gotcha journalism as our very own article has described it. --] (]) 03:41, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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"He's used to the media letting him get away with outlandish claims. But this time he went too far" . ] (]) 00:04, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::And that's why I restored it. There seems to be no argument for removal other than the fact that it makes him look bad. Well, that's not our problem. If he didn't want to get caught in an embarrassing lie, he shouldn't have lied. Neutrality does not mean whitewashing, so we have to report what the secondary sources consider important. ] (]) 02:30, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::I think it's unlikely that Ryan intentionally lied. His marathon time of four hours was still pretty respectable. As someone who hadn't run one in 20 years, I imagine he just misremembered. Why would he make an extraordinary claim that he knew could be disproven?] (]) 02:42, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::StillStanding, who do you think you're fooling? "No argument for removal except whitewashing"? Specific Misplaced Pages policies have been cited; you cannot just reduce opposing arguments to strawmen.] (]) 02:46, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::Naming a policy is not an argument. Otherwise, we could just throw out the name of a policy and end a debate. An argument (or at least a convincing one) actually analyzes if and how the policy applies based on the fact. Why should ] bar inclusion of this and not bar inclusion of some other fact (e.g., President Obama's smoking addiction). Consensus has sanctioned the inclusion of Paul Ryan the cool mountain climber dude, and Paul Ryan the bad-ass bow hunter. But now Ryan misstating his marathon time by over an hour is suddenly off-limits. It's a point that keeps sitting there unrebutted (let alone effectively rebutted) by people who want to exclude mention of the marathon. --] (]) 03:52, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::Since you have on the record stated your hostility towards the subject of this article here and elsewhere, you have a clear COI, so your comments should be viewed in that light. --] (]) 13:18, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::My arguments should be viewed in terms of whether they are convincing or not. You haven't addressed the double-standard regarding other athletics exploits vs. the marathon. I take it from that you have conceded the point regarding the double standard. You don't to avoid the duty to support your edits by magically saying the arguments raised by another editor don't count. And again, mentioning the name of a policy, doesn't amount to an actual violation of the policy. Look at ] and the section on "What is a conflict of interest?" Insisting that we don't have a double standard regarding which recreational activities of Paul Ryan we include isn't a COI. Nor does the humorous use of the term "bad-ass bow hunter" to illustrate that the article is including mentions of Ryan's impressive activities, but not the mediocre and possibly deceptive one. Now beyond the fact that you haven't identified any conflict of interest under the COI policy, note also COI applies to article edits. The only article edit I made regarding the marathon used very sober, restrained language. I bent over backward not to go out on any limbs. It would be helpful if an advocate for exclusion would address the double standard regarding recreational activities. --] (]) 13:59, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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===A modest proposal=== |
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The Times had a blurb in today's paper acknowledging that he his time. I would suggest something along the lines of |
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''"In an interview with radio host ] Ryan said that he had ran a marathon in under three hours; he later acknowledged that this was a misstatement and that his best time was closer to four hours."'' |
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with appropriate cites. This briefly includes an incident which has received significant coverage, but also doesn't imply that he intentionally lied about anything or make it seem like too big of a deal. Thoughts? ] (]) 20:25, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:If he responded on this topic, we should definitely include his response. We should not weigh in on whether he was mistaken or lying; that's not our job. If reliable secondary sources have something to say about it, we ''may'' want to quote them. ] (]) 20:51, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::Pointless triva which has no long lasting historical value per ] ] (]) 00:29, 4 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Looks like my suggestion has failed to satisfy either side; I suggest an RFC. ] (]) 16:02, 4 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Maybe create ] and ]? We can't get into every little silly thing like this.--''']''' • <small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-3.2ex;*left:-5.5ex;">]</span></sup></small> 01:33, 6 September 2012 (UTC) |
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== False claims in speech == |
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North8000, I'm going to politely ask you to revert yourself on this one, because you didn't read the sources. Consider that stated, "Paul Ryan’s acceptance speech at the Republican convention contained several false claims and misleading statements". That was their first sentence; it wasn't buried. Please go ahead and fix it. ] (]) 22:28, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:We aren't here to critique Ryan's speech. ]-] 22:38, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::Correct. We're here to report the critiquing of reliable sources, and we have plenty that call him a liar. ] (]) 22:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::So what? You can find a partisan media source to support any claim you like, that doesn't mean it's fit for this encyclopedia. ]-] 23:03, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::You won't have a speech given by a politician that isn't both widely praised and widely critiqued. Both points of view are relevant and should be included, especially if they are substantive points. After all, the entire theme of the RNC was about a speech given by Obama where he supposedly said that people who build a business are not alone in the success they achieve. If the GOP can make an entire convention about a construing a speech out of context, how is it unenclyclopedic or undue to include substantive critiques of one of the speeches given at the RNC? -- ] (]) 23:14, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:StillStanding, I don't see any claims of factual errors in the article that you linked. I see claims of spin, being misleading etc. but no claims of factual errors. And this is ignoring that the claims are spin themselves, and ignoring that your "reliable sources" are participants, not sources. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 23:23, 1 September 2012 (UTC) |
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The article says this: |
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::"His speech was well received by the convention audience and praised for being well-delivered, but was also criticized for containing what some believed to be half-truths.". |
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I've just read through all these sources, and each one of them discusses the non-factual nature of the speech. The phrase "containing what some believed to half-truths" is unjustified from the sources. I suggest that the sources are being misrepresented. I suggest that the sources would be better represented by: |
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::"His speech was well received by the convention audience and praised for being well-delivered, although also characterised as containing many lies, misrepresentations and omissions." |
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The Fox News source uses the terms "lies", "misrepresentations" and "deceiving". Not one source contradicts this view - hardly "some believed to be half-truths". ] (]) 02:16, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Agreed. There is no reasonable basis for claiming his statements were "half-truths" when all of our sources use much stronger, unambiguous terminology. This will not stay. I won't edit war over it, but I'll use every available mechanism to make this article comply with NPOV. ] (]) 03:37, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::Lie is a pretty strong word to use, especially when regardless of the opinion of some, Ryan did not lie. ] (]) 03:46, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::: If there are notable opinions that he did not lie, we can attribute that to whomever said that. ] (]) 03:57, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Fact, Ryan did not . I realize this is a hard truth for many, but Ryan made no statement regarding the GM plant which was a lie except for the minor statement that the plant did not last a year, as it was actually open longer than 1 year after Obama made his first statement. It is quite sad actually. This one event will probably be the end of the view that Many of the so called fact checking is an independent view of events. ] (]) 04:38, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::Arzel, what you or I think is actually irrelevant to the article. The nine sources cited in the article are unambiguously unanimous - Ryan's speech contained lies and misrepresentations. I have not found a single news source, US or international, that says otherwise. Even the specific example that you give of the GM plant is still factually wrong in one respect, and recalls an earlier statement that was quite incorrect. A question for you: how would you use the CNN article that you link to,, or any other reputable source, to improve this entry? ] (]) 07:36, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::NONE of them claim that he said anything that was incorrect. They are all just talking about what they say he implied, not what he said. And this is an article about Ryan, not about his opponents, and so statements should be in the form of being about Ryan, backed by sources, not statements about what his opponents said. Plus this creative "lie" angle is a BLP violation. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 11:13, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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{{od}}I'm sorry, but the sources disagree with you. They win. ] (]) 11:18, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::It seems some here are disposed to label Ryan a compulsive liar and fraud. This is silly season editing at its worst. Misplaced Pages should ''never'' be used as a ''campaign vehicle'' on any side - whether about Obama's 57 states or whatever. Cheers. ] (]) 11:20, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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{{od}}If that's what our sources say, that's what they say. Argue with them, not us. ] (]) 11:26, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Regarding this point, I'm not disputing the sources, I'm using them. Show us one allegation of a FACTUAL ERROR in any of them. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 12:49, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Again you seem to think Misplaced Pages is a glorious billboard for silly season claims -- have you added the "57 states" to the Obama BLP, by the way? <g>. Your edit history is rife with problems on political articles in which you seem to present a very consistent POV. Alas for you, |
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::''An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight '''appropriate to its significance to the subject'''. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. '' |
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:Cheers. ] (]) 12:06, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::Right, and how does this apply? ] (]) 12:40, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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Grasping for "facts" in the world of politics is often futile. And here within Misplaced Pages, the "factuality" of something isn't what we're after. What do our so-called reliable sources say? If they say Ryan misrepresented something, we can easily say "According to the Reliable Source News, Ryan's statement on X was overstated, untrue, etc", whatever the source said. So what is the debate about in this section? Do you want to include a speech and only include positive praise of it? I assume we're talking about Ryan's speech at the RNC, which is clearly a unique speech due to the venue. If sources say it is a great blow against the evil socialist Obama, shall we exclude that? And if other sources say it was full of hyperbole or exaggeration or even lies, shall we exclude that? I say no. We include a clear representation of what our sources tell us. It is obviously campaign "silly season", and it is a stupid time to edit political articles, but hey, what do you do? -- ] (]) 15:37, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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From an international perspective, and partisan politics aside, the bloke running for VP on the Republican ticket has made a major speech that has been reported to be full of obvious lies by reporters of all political stripes around the world. Some of the lies are clearly lies, others might be finessed away under fine parsing of the words, but it's fairly clear that the image projected by Ryan in this speech is of someone who is not reliable. The marathon kerfuffle is symbolic of this. In other words, the facts themselves are not the key point of this paragraph. The key point that I'm getting from fairly extensive reading of the sources is that whether something is true or not doesn't seem to matter to Ryan, and this is someone who, if the Republican ticket wins, would be a heartbeat away from being president of the United States. The problem with using the structure "According to the Reliable Source News, Ryan's statement on X was overstated, untrue, etc" is that it doesn't convey the general agreement among sources. ] (]) 23:25, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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I've asked three times and nobody can find even an assertion of something that he said that was factually wrong. We should be covering the specifics, and the un-spun specifics of areas of issue, not trying to game in adjectives and swipes by his opponents by calling them "sources". <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 23:45, 2 September 2012 (UTC) |
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First up, North8000, we are not your personal researchers. You can ask all you like, we are not mandated to do your work for you. You could ask 20 times for proof the earth is more than 4000 years old, it still doesn't change the facts if no-one complies with your demands. That said, the sources even have titles including "brazen lies", "lies", "dishonest" and so forth. But, just this once, here is one example of a specific claim: |
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:The Affordable Care Act increases taxes on millions of small businesses – Paul Ryan declared that the Affordable Care Act would impose “new taxes on nearly a million small businesses.” The Act changes taxes for small businesses in three ways. It provides a tax credit (pdf) to subsidize insurance coverage for which between 1.4 and 4 million small businesses are eligible. It imposes a tax on medical device manufacturers, of which there were only 5,300 (pdf) in the United States in 2007. Finally, it imposes an employer mandate on businesses that do not provide coverage, which will not affect (pdf) businesses with under 50 employees. Most small businesses, then, get a tax cut, and the number of small businesses facing tax increases is about five thousand, far under a million. Ryan’s claim is just false. |
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:::You just made my point which is that there is a new tax on small businesses. Not only is not a lie, it is correct. Your construction (even if it is accurate) asserts that the net effect is not an increase; even if it were true, that is a different topic. It certainly doesn't establish a "lie" <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 21:49, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::I don't see how claiming a million when its actually more like less than 10 thousand small businesses in regards to taxation is not at the very least misleading at face value or unrepresentative of the realities involved if not an intentional "lie". I understand your point that the number or outcome is not the reason making it 'less than truthful' but his use of vocabulary does. If you/he want to clearly reflect the nuance that you're making - it should somehow be clarified that a million small businesses are subject to new taxes due to the enactment of the ACA (''true any way one tries to parse it; this is part of normal tax-assessment'') but without any mention if that new exposure actually translates into higher payments for the same million small businesses (''tax-payment not the same as tax-assessment thanks to tax-credits and/or tax-refunds being in play here'') and to what percentage (''the actual 5 to 10K''), leaves the reader/listener with a false or misleading impression as a result of his less-than-absolutely-specific statement. Is that a 'the sky is yellow not blue' lie?? maybe not... but it is certainly a key omission that skews perception and I've read/seen several sources saying as much. One can be subject to the Marriage Tax, being of legal age, sound mind, and so on, but in the end - if you're not married, being subject to that tax doesn't mean a single thing -- even though this is typically not an increased exposure to tax-payment but a decreased exposure via a tax-deduction for newlyweds; for single people it can be construed as a penalty for being single. For the clear transfer of knowledge or intent from one person to the next; specifics (among other tools) serve us best, and his statement wasn't specific enough for the majority of the reporting on his speech/statement. -- ] (]) 01:26, 4 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::I think that what you are saying / agreeing is that what he said is literally true, but is misleading by leaving out other mitigating factors. That is probably correct, but saying something that is literally true can't be called a "lie" here. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 10:35, 4 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::Unfortunately, this is an instance where its not a contributor to the article synthesizing this POV on his or her own (for a change) but being done by several well-established & typically reliable sources themselves in response to what they've perceived as some sort of 'crossing the line' given the gravitas of the speaker making the statements and the setting in which they were made in. This is not something that can be addressed in this forum without our own synthesis taking place to dismiss or rebut the majority of the reporting currently referenced. The best one can do, imo, is find alternative sources to counter the majority reporting and the verbiage used in their reporting. Otherwise, we are pretty much stuck with the labeling in use until the next event comes along to quiet down (or ramp up?) the matter. Continued argument over this nuance is already working to Ryan's opponents favor by keeping it in the forefront of discussion. (i.e. the twitter/blogosphere are making ''Lyin' Ryan'' an embedded staple rather than just a passing fancy for example). -- ] (]) 18:40, 4 September 2012 (UTC) |
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I disagree that Misplaced Pages should be just covering the specifics. Misplaced Pages should be covering the subject in the article, using appropriate sources, appropriate weight and appropriate context.] (]) 00:33, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Just to be clear: The mandate ''is'' a tax. Definitions of small businesses vary, but can include businesses with over 50 employees.] (]) 01:07, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::North8000 asked for an example of a source saying that Ryan said something non-factual, because he disputes the characterisation of the sources in the article. I provided such an example, which discusses the subsidy that small businesses get to offset the costs of the mandate, and that the mandate does not apply to small businesses with under 50 people. Why are you pointing out that the definition of small business includes those with over 50 employees? That is not in dispute.] (]) 01:40, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::That wasn't me, there must be confusion. But see above to note that not only is his statement about a "new tax" not a lie, it has been confirmed here by an opponent of his as being accurate. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 21:52, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::You said that, far from raising taxes, the ACA actually ''cuts'' taxes for "most" small businesses. Therefore, your argument is that the subsidy outweighs the mandate, and that this is an undisputed ''fact''?] (]) 02:52, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::No, my argument is that the sources cited in the article do indeed claim that Ryan erred in his facts. The subject of this discussion is the existence of the claim. ] (]) 04:10, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::That's not correct / germane. This is an article about Paul Ryan, not about the existence of talking points by his opponents. So, with respect to this, and following YOUR definition of the topic, what you are calling sources are actually participants in the material, not sources. ''Possibly'' it is germane enough to be covered (e.g. "reactions of opponents"), but as participants not sources. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 21:58, 3 September 2012 (UTC) |
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The claims about Ryan "lying" seem poorly supported. I'm seeing opinions pieces and blogs, which are inappropriate. In order to include a highly charged accusation like this, I'd like to see much more solid sources. These sources must also fairly address the counter charge raised by Ryan's supporters that his claims were factual, instead of mis-characterizing Ryan's remarks and then calling those mis-characterizations lies. Right now, I think the entire paragraph should be removed until we can find a consensus. ] (]) 14:39, 4 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:I concur. Only reliable sources should be used. If those reliable sources claim lies, then we can quote them on that, but if those same sources fail to idenfity specific lies, we can also note that. Additionally we should balance the claim of lies with the reponse that its just spin being characterized by lies. Several reliable sources have now come out and said something along the lines of 'technically true statements, but misleading', which is not a lie, and which is also the standard practice for all politicians. ] (]) 14:59, 4 September 2012 (UTC) |
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Silly season in full swing -- the edit being made implies that most folks found it to be "lies" which means that the articles contradicting such claims as were made must also be included directly as such for NPOV. The term "widely" is an opinion which would require specific reliable sourcing - and ought not be stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. In short - the simple claim that it was criticized is valid - the rest, ain't. ] (]) 15:14, 4 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:As I am handling the GA review I will weigh in on this point. I believe the term "lies" should not really be used in this context as it appears the claim is more about misleading or deceptive statements rather than outright lies. Some take a view that these comments constitute lies by knowingly implying something that is false, but this sort of characterization should be noted in that context. However, it is probably better to leave that kind of explanation for the main article on the campaign and thus not mention the term "lies" in the material on this page. Noting that the criticism is about him allegedly misleading on certain points by omitting important facts is, I believe, more appropriate in the context of this article.--] (]) 18:51, 4 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::Concur. Perhaps "alleged distortions" captures the essence of the major complaints. "Lies" is a loaded term and doesn't seem accurate as Ryan's text is parsed a second and third time. ] (]) 20:54, 4 September 2012 (UTC) |
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--The issue is not what words any of us would personally use to characterize Ryan's statements. However, much of the press reaction has questioned Ryan's truthfulness. The Fox News piece states "Ryan’s speech was an apparent attempt to set the world record for the greatest number of blatant lies and misrepresentations slipped into a single political speech." That is pretty strong and unambiguous. Similar language was used by many commentators, and the phrase "Lyin' Ryan" has entered the vernacular. The sources cited are not self-published blogs, but rather news analysis from respected authors and established reputable publishers. It is simply a fact that the speech generated controversy and that controversy should be duly reported here. The reference is really rather brief, and well-supported in my view.'''SPECIFICO''' 21:06, 4 September 2012 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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The sources have been stripped down to three, two of which are British. This is hardly representative of the coverage of a US event. I suggest that one of the British references be replaced by the Fox news source, now no longer cited.] (]) 23:08, 4 September 2012 (UTC) |
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A couple of points about claiming someone is a "liar" based on a campaign speech: |
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1. In politics, politicians constantly blame their political opponents of being liars. Politicians (and their supporters) do not distinguish well between disagreeing with someone's position and with their representation of the facts. Want an example? |
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Is the American economy better under Obama than under the Republicans? Some people will say yes, some no. Each person with a position on this issue will accuse any person with opposite views of being a liar, undoubtedly. |
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If being named by a political opponent (or, for that matter, in an opinion page or a blog) a "liar" means that the politician in question should therefore be named as such in an encyclopedic website such as Misplaced Pages - then just about EVERY POLITICIAN IN THE LAND SHOULD HAVE THE ADJECTIVE LIAR IN THEIR RESPECTIVE WIKIPEDIA ENTRY. Therefore, simply refrain from calling a politician a "liar" or even suggesting something to this effect using the word "liar" or "lies" (such as in "some people said he lied"). Period. If you really must - present the claim made by the politician and then present a WELL-SUBSTANTIATED PROOF that this claim is false. Do not call someone a "liar" just because someone else does. |
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2. In relation to the above: DO NOT USE OPINION PIECES to extract alleged facts about the SUBJECT of these opinion pieces in encyclopedic content! How easy is it for us to find someone who agrees with our particular point of view, and then quote that person to back up our own position (sometimes without naming the person, but only in form of a reference and sometimes even without that, and simply writing "some people say..."). Duh! Quoting people - even exactly - does not necessarily encyclopedic content make. |
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Thanks ] (]) 01:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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Also removed the entire sentence: |
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"The speech was well received by the convention audience and praised for being well-delivered, although it was criticized for alleged "lies" and misstatements.<ref>* * </ref><ref name="GuardianSpeech">James Antle, Michael Cohen and Jim Geraghty, (30 August 2012). ''The Guardian''.</ref><ref></ref><ref name="RyanPromises">Karen Tumulty, (30 August 2012). ''The Washington Post''.</ref><ref name="Paul Ryan Republican">US Elections, (30 August 2012). ''BBC''.</ref>" |
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It does not add much and seemed to be the cause of a small edit-war. Maybe better to leave out altogether. Please discuss here before returning it to the article itself.] (]) |
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:If there's an edit war, it's because you keep trying to delete it. I'm sorry, but it's too important and too well-sourced to be cut. There is plenty of discussion above that explains the reasons for inclusion. ] (]) 01:37, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::Sorry, but there is plenty of discussion above that presents the opposite point of view to yours, namely why the claims should not be included. I have requested to achieve consensus here - which clearly hasn't happened before returning this sentence. I said Please, but you simply ignored my and many others' position and went ahead and simply returned the sentence. My edits in the "edit-war" you seem to blame me of were only two out of - by what I could see - many, many edits. Both in the Article page as well as the Talk page there are many others of my position: It is definitely not just me holding the position that the word "lie" is inappropriate. You seem to ignore us. I repeat: PLEASE do not change before consensus is achieved. Let this (second) warning be recorded if any of us is accused of engaging in an edit war by the powers that be. ] (]) 01:51, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Don't be sorry, just stop edit-warring. You're at 3RR already and you're not even slowing down. |
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:::Look, this material belongs in the article for all of the reasons given. Policy supports it, even if it's unpopular among conservative editors. ] (]) 02:10, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Let's start from the basics: this article is about Paul Ryan: His background and his political opinions. Does it matter what someone else thinks about Paul Ryan? Certainly not in an encyclopedic article about Paul Ryan! The ONLY political commentary allowed in an article by Paul Ryan should be made by one person and one person alone: Paul Ryan himself. That does not mean that Misplaced Pages endorses all or any of Paul Ryan's opinions, but only that it is the role of Misplaced Pages to loyally represent facts about the man, including his thoughts. His thoughts matter, yours, mine and anyone else do not - at least here, in an article about PAUL RYAN. What you think about him and his politics does not matter, nor what I nor what any other political commentator in the land thinks. In this article the only opinion that matters is Paul Ryan and his alone. So please do NOT quote us commentators - from the Guardian, Fox or anyone else - to give their opinions on the opinions of Paul Ryan. Kapish? <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:26, 5 September 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:::::I quote from ]: “Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, …”. It is in fact part of the purpose of Misplaced Pages to document public reaction to politicians and celebrities, because it's part of the historical context. I <em>strongly</em> suggest that you read ], ], ], and ] before committing any more changes. ] (]) 03:13, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::I agree with Kerfuffler's assessment and the suggestion to review long-standing WP guidelines & policy. The idea that the article should be isolated to Paul Ryan's POV could be deemed as nothing more than an attempt at self-promotion via 3rd party - another WP policy no-no. Any changes made in this vein should be reverted. -- ] (]) 03:33, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::Except all the links that were added appear to be negative. That's not NPOV, even with the "people at the convention liked it" sentence before it. --] (]) 03:41, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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{{od}}If you can find a "positive" cite, feel free to add it. But you don't get to remove the "negative" ones just because the reaction was so uniformly negative. Besides, we need all of those cites to support the fact that he lied; BLP requires us to have strong sources. ] (]) 03:51, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:So why not just find a positive comment and add it? As it is you are basically trying to get around ] by making an unsourced claim that some liked the speech, and then stacking it with a bunch of editorials by people who didn't like it. I'm sorry, that's not ] and you should know better. --] (]) 03:59, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::What you said is an argument for removing the positive part, not for removing the whole thing. If we can only find criticism for his lies, then so be it. NPOV does not mean putting lipstick on a pig. ] (]) 04:02, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::If you removed the positive part, then it's even more non-NPOV. The contributor has the responsibility to make the edit NPOV, it is not their job to throw up something POV and require other editor's to fix it. My question to the person who originally contributed the bit I just removed is: did you try to find reliable sources that liked the speech? Here are some I found in a few minutes using a simple web search: , , . I really don't care about his speech, but if you can't even try to be NPOV, then maybe Misplaced Pages is not for you.--] (]) 04:12, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Is there really any disagreement that the speech was well delivered and well recieved by his audience that warrants the need for additional references? -- ] (]) 04:06, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::I think you need to cite both if you are going to meet NPOV. See ]. --] (]) 04:12, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Of course but by that logic the statement about it being ''well delivered....'' should be removed because ''that'' appears to be the minority side in the balanced equation concerning undue weight - not the side that has criticisms pointing out inaccuaracies, etc. -- ] (]) 04:21, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::I reverted that claim too, it should be cited as well. Same as the speech being well-received. I doubt either of these would be difficult to source. But an edit which gives completely uncited positive prose and heavily-cited negative prose doesn't meet ]. --] (]) 04:25, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::Point taken I guess. I just didn't think those parts were ever in doubt and adding refs to support them would just be an exercise undertaken for the sake of a solution looking for a problem. What I don't understand is what happened since the weekend - there were enough sources listed for both sides of this coin to choke a pig. Just look higher up in this thread back around the 1st of Sept. -- ] (]) 04:32, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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{{od}}What happened was edit-warring by those who do not want this article to report that Ryan was called a liar. Most recently, Vernon removed the material, cites and all, based on a misunderstanding of relevant policy. It's rather frustrating. ] (]) 04:35, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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: Well I added the earlier line back in. It probably doesn't need all the refs now though -- ] (]) 04:51, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:: It's still all negative refs and no positive ones. I don't see how this meets NPOV, though I guess I will bring it to the noticeboard. --] (]) 04:55, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::: Shame on you, ] (]) and ] (]). There is clearly no consensus to call Ryan a liar (or call his nomination speech "lies") yet you continue to fight doggedly this edit war! The passion in which you fight for the right to term Ryan a liar shows your bias. The reaction to his nomination speech was - as much as it was controversial - an entirely negligible issue to Paul Ryan's career. Yet you relentlessly revert to the "lies" entry. Clearly you have an agenda to push! Shame on you! ] (]) 05:03, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Nobody here has called Ryan a liar. Political commentators in popular and respected newspapers have. It is not our job to decide on the merits of their claims; it's our job to document them. ] (]) 05:29, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Also, I want to make it clear that scare quotes are <em>never</em> appropriate in this context. Either the sources say it or they don't. Adding scare quotes is just a way of adding bias by casting doubt on the sources; if the source isn't reliable, don't use it. ] (]) 05:34, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::: I have to agree, and George Orwell III, the extreme excessive sourcing only illustrates the clear bias trying to be presented in that section making it very hard to assume good faith in the edit. ] (]) 05:13, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::I presume the sources were added because people were nitpicking some of the earlier sources. I note that in the time it takes you to write these comments, you presumably could have easily found positive sources and added them. You need to read ] and ]. ] (]) 05:29, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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Come all ye to . --] (]) 05:20, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:This is actually quite funny, in that the section prior to that one in on the NPOV noticeboard is about a very similar incident, and the consensus there is pretty clear. Did you read it? ] (]) 05:31, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::Why would anybody read it? It's irrelevant. ]-] 05:55, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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216.81.94.70 is an IP address for the Department of Homeland Security in Washington DC. Such an editor has no business makoing political edits at all. ] (]) 14:44, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:What I got out of our little trip to NPOVD-land is that we have to cover the reaction. ] (]) 17:31, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::What I don't understand is this: There ''were'' originally three sources next to the positive stament, and then several more after the negative statement. Who removed the positive sources?] (]) 18:13, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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Here's the text as I left it: |
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"Although the speech was well received by the convention audience and praised for being well-delivered, it was also criticized by multiple sources for being exceptionally dishonest.<ref>* * </ref><ref name="GuardianSpeech">James Antle, Michael Cohen and Jim Geraghty, (30 August 2012). ''The Guardian''.</ref>*<ref></ref><ref name="RyanPromises">Karen Tumulty, (30 August 2012). ''The Washington Post''.</ref><ref name="Paul Ryan Republican">US Elections, (30 August 2012). ''BBC''.</ref>" |
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I think something like that has several things to recommend it: |
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*It avoids the word "lie", which is a magnet for ]-warriors on both sides (and for ]-based conciliators). |
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*The main clause focuses on the wider reception of the speech, since its reception within the convention itself is lesser news. |
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*It is well-sourced. |
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Also, on another note, I'd like to register my opinion that I don't think this high level of protection is warranted. Of course there will be some edit warring on an article like this. I'd rather see hair-trigger article-specific user blocks to deal with that - even something as draconian as an automatic 12-hour article-specific block to any editor who makes a non-minor edit, good or bad - than what is effectively an article-specific block for all non-admins. ] (]) 12:51, 6 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::I'd water down "exceptionally" to "very". ] (]) 13:05, 6 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Certainly there's room for a healthy back-and-forth on details like that. Which is exactly why the page shouldn't be admin-only-protected now. ] (]) 13:25, 6 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::You can't simply leave out that it was factually true. Every statement made by Ryan was a correct statement. ] (]) 13:55, 6 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:], which is a prominent independent, reliable source says. "Paul Ryan’s acceptance speech at the Republican convention contained several false claims and misleading statements." That should be included and we should use the same type of measured language. ] (]) 14:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::We can either follow a source like that and say that he made false claims, or weasel a small amount and say that ''many sources said'' that he was dishonest. If we do the latter, since we're reporting on what was said rather than making a judgment about what is so, we are obligated to give an accurate picture of what was said; and that means some indication that the sources in question found it unusually dishonest even for a political speech. I suspect that the latter ("many said ...") will be a better basis for a lasting consensus/compromise. ] (]) 15:57, 6 September 2012 (UTC) |
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{{edit protected}}The article should reflect that his RNC speech was seen as dishonest by multiple RSes. Sample wording and sourcing is just below, to be added at the end of the third (last) paragraph of the VP campaign section. ] (]) 16:31, 6 September 2012 (UTC) |
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Although the speech was well received by the convention audience and praised for being well-delivered,<ref name="RyanPromises">Karen Tumulty, (30 August 2012). ''The Washington Post''.</ref><ref name="Paul Ryan Republican">US Elections, (30 August 2012). ''BBC''.</ref> it was also criticized by multiple sources for being unusually dishonest.<ref> * </ref><ref name="GuardianSpeech">James Antle, Michael Cohen and Jim Geraghty, (30 August 2012). ''The Guardian''.</ref><ref></ref> |
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--Homunq's proposal seems reasonable to me.'''SPECIFICO''' 17:14, 6 September 2012 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::What would be considered "Usually" dishonest versus "Unusually" dishonest. Is it expected that it be simply dishonest like Clinton's speech last night and that Ryan made fewer "dishonest" statements making it unusual? Or is it that Ryan made no factually false statements, but did make statements which did not tell enough of the story to satisfy his critics? ] (]) 18:20, 6 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::This is silly. None of the sources explicitly call the speech either "unusually" or "exceptionally" dishonest--that's just editorializing.] (]) 18:33, 6 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::: The first source, a Fox News editorial, called it "an apparent attempt to set the world record for the greatest number of blatant lies and misrepresentations slipped into a single political speech". It think that qualifies as calling it exceptionally dishonest. ~ ] (]) 18:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::A point of order - I think describing the Fox piece as an "editorial" is a bit of stretch in the sense that the term is usually reserved for opinion pieces that represent the view of the news service. In fact, the piece is more accurately described as an opinion piece by an occasional (unpaid?) contributor (who, by the way, appears to have somewhat partisan leanings). I think part of the problem here is that so many sources have been misleadingly represented in this manner that it's difficult to separate the light from the heat. Perhaps we need to have some time to sort out the competing claims. ] (]) 18:53, 6 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::There's little point quibbling about this source when it is just ''one of many'' that notes Ryan's dishonesty during that speech. The article cannot hide this. ] requires that we cover this topic. ] (]) 02:22, 7 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::Is it a violation of WP policy to call someone a pest? Cease and desist! Clearly there is strong opposition by many here to add this sentence, yet you ignore that and insist on adding it. The response in the Leftie commentariat to Ryan's speech as 'lies' is predictable as it is inconsequential. Your insistence to add it should be regarded as nothing more than you pushing a political agenda of branding Ryan and, no doubt, by extention the Republicans (and conservatives in general) as "liars". It is probably another violation of WP policies to tell you what you can do with your agenda, so instead, again: cease and desist. ] (]) 06:31, 7 September 2012 (UTC) |
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{{od}}Looking at the conversation, what I see is that we discussed our disagreements and came up with something almost all of us were comfortable with. In other words, there's a consensus for inclusion. I would add that, given how Clinton and other Democrats have attacked Ryan's lies, this has become even more significant than before. |
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== Article structure == |
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In short, I'd like you to revert yourself. ] (]) 06:39, 7 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Oh, that changes everything then, doesn't it? I mean, now it's not just the Guardian who criticizes Republicans, but also this famous-beacon-of-neutrality-in-American-politics aka Bill Clinton that criticizes Republicans. After all, it's not like he has a long history of criticizing Republicans (and being criticized by them) and his wife is the Secretary of State in an administration now criticized by the Republicans or anything, right? On a slightly less sarcastic tone: as I said over and over earlier: of course Lefties criticize a Republican. There is nothing unpredictable, newsworthy or informative about it. Let it go, mate. ] (]) 06:52, 7 September 2012 (UTC) |
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I’m afraid to be ], but shouldn’t the sections ] and ] be switched? At present, ], despite its title, ends with something in 2012; then there is the section about his 2015–2019 speakership, including the 2016 election; then we’re back to the 2012 election. ] (]) 14:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC) |
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== Edit request on 5 September 2012 == |
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:{{fixed}}. <span class="nowrap">–]</span> (] • ]) 20:35, 15 November 2022 (UTC) |
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== Information box photograph == |
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{{hat|Fake request}} |
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{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}} |
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<!-- Begin request --> |
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Request to add awards and honours section: |
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I noticed there’s a lot of back and forth editing about which photo should be in his info box, his official photograph or painting, wanted to ask which one should used, I’m assuming it’s the photograph ] (]) 23:04, 13 January 2023 (UTC) |
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2010 - American of the year award from FARTA - Free Americas Regional Trade Association |
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<!-- End request --> |
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] (]) 20:15, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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{{hab}} |
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: I had to modify the above to get the request off the list. ] (]) 23:45, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:His official portrait should be kept. Is there really a reason why should we replace it with a painting instead when we actually have a photo of him? ] (]) 23:14, 13 January 2023 (UTC) |
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== RfC: Critiques of Ryan RNC Speech == |
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::Considering that {{no ping|RayAdvait}} keeps changing the image (on multiple articles), I think that we should form a consensus on which image should be used here in the infobox. I'm in favor of using ]. ] (]) 14:14, 18 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:::'''Keep current photo''', I feel like the current official congressional photo is fine ] (]) 20:05, 18 January 2023 (UTC) |
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== What is he doing now? == |
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'''RfC:''' Shall a critique or critiques of Paul Ryan's RNC nomination acceptance speech be included within this article? |
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The article should be updated with Ryan's current professional activities. |
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:At present, the coverage of the speech seems to simply be a neutral summary. This seems to satisfy WP:NPOV and WP:DUE. If critiques of the speech are '''not''' included in this article, which article would they belong within? Thanks. -- ] (]) 06:47, 7 September 2012 (UTC) |
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found this so far: https://marketrealist.com/p/what-is-paul-ryan-doing-now/ ] (]) 06:48, 26 May 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Include''' - The brief mention removed by seems to be neutral, relevant and well-sourced. ] (]) 07:00, 7 September 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Not here''' but here ]. In any case, win or lose this speech will be a blip in Ryan's biography. ]{{SubSup||]|]}} 07:16, 7 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Comment: It may well also belong in the convention article, but if we're going to mention his speech here, it has to be neutral, and that means we give the criticism a sentence, particularly as it's become more notable than the speech itself. As for becoming a "blip", I don't have a crystal ball, but I'm not convinced he'll ever live this down, particularly after Clinton's speech. I don't like Clinton or his politics, but he sure can orate. ] (]) 07:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::"...if we're going to mention his speech here, it has to be neutral..." says our friend. As in: "if you quote what Paul Ryan said about something, you have to quote what the response to his words was too, otherwise WP is not neutral." No, mate. I said it before and will say it again: this is an entry about Paul Ryan. Whatever Ryan thinks is relevant and what others do - is not relevant. If you, Mr ] (]), had your own WP article, your thoughts would matter and the thoughts of, e.g., Paul Ryan about your opinions wouldn't. Simple, no? ] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 07:34, 7 September 2012 (UTC)</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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I noticed there’s a lot of back and forth editing about which photo should be in his info box, his official photograph or painting, wanted to ask which one should used, I’m assuming it’s the photograph Maxx1222 (talk) 23:04, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
Fixed. –CWenger (^ • @) 20:35, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
