Talk:Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich of Russia: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 17:06, 4 May 2006 editGhirlandajo (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers89,661 editsm moved Talk:Constantine Pavlovich to Talk:Grand Duke Constantine Pavlovich of Russia: we have elaborate guidelines as to what the royalty nomenclature← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 12:17, 7 January 2025 edit undoUsernamekiran (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers34,928 editsm Usernamekiran moved page Talk:Konstantin Pavlovich, Grand Duke of Russia to Talk:Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich of Russia over redirect: Perform requested move, see talk page: per this discussion Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit
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			{{WikiProject banner shell\|class=B\|listas=Constantine Pavlovich Of Russia, Grand Duke\|blp=no\|1=
			{{WikiProject Military history\|class=C
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			{{WikiProject Biography\|military-work-group=yes\|military-priority=Low\|royalty-work-group=yes\|royalty-priority=Low}}
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			== Issue ==
			I've deleted information about Constantine's son with Joanna Grudzińska. Existence of such a child is not supported by any reliable sources and this information is probably a hoax. ] (]) 22:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC) Sorry, forgot to log in ] (]) 22:38, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
			* See ]. His mother was ]. --]<sup>]</sup> 07:33, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

	== POV ==		== POV ==
	The following fragment is a laughable POV: ''"the great champion of the Poles. His love for a Polish woman cost him the Russian crown."'' For reasons why, see references that I recently added, for example, (which seems to be written by a Russian, too). As Balcer pointed out, the Britannica article is almost a 100 years old, uses even older, imperial Russia references and thus should not be considered NPOV when it comes to Poland. In addition, , which removed my reference as well as copyedit changes (adding caption, removing empty section, etc.), is borderline 'v'-word - please refrain from such blatant reverts, and discuss your POV here first, preferably citing modern academic sources.--] <sup~~><font~~ ~~color~~="green">~~]</font>~~</sup> 16:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)		The following fragment is a laughable POV: ''"the great champion of the Poles. His love for a Polish woman cost him the Russian crown."'' For reasons why, see references that I recently added, for example, (which seems to be written by a Russian, too). As Balcer pointed out, the Britannica article is almost a 100 years old, uses even older, imperial Russia references and thus should not be considered NPOV when it comes to Poland. In addition, , which removed my reference as well as copyedit changes (adding caption, removing empty section, etc.), is borderline 'v'-word - please refrain from such blatant reverts, and discuss your POV here first, preferably citing modern academic sources.--] ] 16:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
			:Hmm, it appears Ghirla s. ] is not the best place for discussion, Ghirla - please reply here instead of waging a ].--] ] 16:53, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

			== Article name ==
			So, I see we have no concensus for moving the article. Fine. Let's discuss this then. Ghirlandajo cites some elaborate guidelines for naming articles about royalty. Care to point me as to where they are? As far as I can tell, even Russian ]s don't have that title indicated in their article titles (], ] etc.) Why should Grand Dukes be superior? Also, what is wrong with Russian Misplaced Pages that it simply titles this article Constantine Pavlovich? ] 17:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
			:Hmmm. ] notes that it covers '''Western''' nobility, but may be applicable. I don't think that the issue is related to ]. Let's wait for Ghirla to enlighten us about the specific policy he is relying upon.--] ] 19:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
			::The list of Grand Dukes and Grand Princes who do not have that title in their article titles seems extensive: ], ], ], ],] and so on. So at the very least we have a giant mess of inconsistency in this area. Still, I am not keen to have a fight over this. I just assumed that Russian Misplaced Pages is probably as neutral and accurate as can be in this matter, and attempted to follow its convention. But apparently they are wrong. ] 19:29, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

			=== Move ===
			Does anyone agree on moving this to ] or ] because that was his title and the fact that he turned down the throne doesn't erase the fact that he was once Tsesarevich? --] (]) 02:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

			== Viceroy? ==
			My current research indicates there was never a ] of ]. There were ], but Constantine was not one of them. He seems to have held the posistion of ] of the Kingdom's army, and while he was ''de facto'' 'second in the country after the tsar', there is no 'viceroy' posistion mentioned in the ]. While Constantine might have been ''de facto'' viceroy because of his royal bloodline, namestniks were the official viceroys; I'll see if I can find info on his exact position and title (help appreciated).--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]\|]</span></sub> 23:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

			== Why did he turn down the Russian throne? ==
			He didn't. Secretly he was an Ally to Louie XVIII, and Tollyrand, as Tzar Paul II and he gave immunity to the Bourbons while Napoleon was in power, and everything in Europe was in turmoil and even Russia was occupied twice by Bonaparte, and he himself aligned Russian Orthodox Catholicism and Modern Christianity in Russia, stemming from the Conclave. Earl 01/10/2014
			The trigger for the Decembrist revolt appears to have been Constantine's refusal of the imperial succession. Why did he do it? Was it an apparently exceptional moment of awareness of his own undoubted limitations, or was he persuaded by Nicholas? And why did the Decembrists back his accession, since his policy as ruler of Poland seems to have been as reactionary as Nicholas could wish? I assume these interesting questions are discussed in the historical literature, and should at least be raised in the article.
			] 20:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
			: There is a much better Wiki article ], better researched and referenced. (I had nothing to do with it, I am just admiring the work.) Some of the researched for that article could be brought into the article on Constantine as well.
			: Basically, Constantine never wanted to reign and refused the throne as far as 1823. Also, he was in an unequal marriage, which meant that his descendants would never be able to accede to the throne. Constantine's abdication was put into a secret manifesto by Alexander I, and then sealed until the latter's death, but Constantine was still titled as heir apparent, which meant that once Alexander died, he would still succeed automatically. That happened in 1825, and only after C refused the throne twice, the succession was passed to Nicholas. The Decembrists merely saw the confusion regarding succession as a golden opportunity for their coup-d'etat. You can read it all in books on Russian history - even the most general ones will have the basic facts. ] (]) 19:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

			== File:Grand Duke Constantine Pavlovich of Russia.PNG Nominated for Deletion ==
			{\|
			\|-
			\| ]
			\| An image used in this article, ], has been nominated for deletion at ] in the following category: ''Deletion requests September 2011''
			;What should I do?
			''Don't panic''; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
			* If the image is ] then you may need to upload it to Misplaced Pages (Commons does not allow fair use)
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			== Requested move 29 December 2024 ==

			<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #efe); color: var(--color-base, inherit); margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted var(--border-color-subtle, #AAAAAA);"><!-- Template:RM top -->
			:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] '''after''' discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

			The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' —usernamekiran ] 12:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			----

			] → {{no redirect\|Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich of Russia}} – Per ], which states "Where they have no substantive title, use the form "{title} {name} of {country}"". ] (]) 01:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. Standard titling for Russian grand dukes. -- ] (]) 16:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

			<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] -->
			</div><div style="clear:both;" class=></div>

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Issue

I've deleted information about Constantine's son with Joanna Grudzińska. Existence of such a child is not supported by any reliable sources and this information is probably a hoax. 5.185.15.57 (talk) 22:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC) Sorry, forgot to log in Stresinski (talk) 22:38, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

See ru:Александров, Павел Константинович. His mother was Josephine Mercier. --Ghirla 07:33, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

POV

The following fragment is a laughable POV: "the great champion of the Poles. His love for a Polish woman cost him the Russian crown." For reasons why, see references that I recently added, for example, this (which seems to be written by a Russian, too). As Balcer pointed out, the Britannica article is almost a 100 years old, uses even older, imperial Russia references and thus should not be considered NPOV when it comes to Poland. In addition, Ghirla's revert, which removed my reference as well as copyedit changes (adding caption, removing empty section, etc.), is borderline 'v'-word - please refrain from such blatant reverts, and discuss your POV here first, preferably citing modern academic sources.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, it appears Ghirla has forgotten about the talk pages. Edit summary is not the best place for discussion, Ghirla - please reply here instead of waging a revert war.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:53, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Article name

So, I see we have no concensus for moving the article. Fine. Let's discuss this then. Ghirlandajo cites some elaborate guidelines for naming articles about royalty. Care to point me as to where they are? As far as I can tell, even Russian Tsars don't have that title indicated in their article titles (Nicholas II of Russia, Alexander III of Russia etc.) Why should Grand Dukes be superior? Also, what is wrong with Russian Misplaced Pages that it simply titles this article Constantine Pavlovich? Balcer 17:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. Misplaced Pages:Naming_conventions_(names_and_titles) notes that it covers Western nobility, but may be applicable. I don't think that the issue is related to Misplaced Pages:Transliteration of Russian into English. Let's wait for Ghirla to enlighten us about the specific policy he is relying upon.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The list of Grand Dukes and Grand Princes who do not have that title in their article titles seems extensive: Yuri Dolgoruki, Mikhail Yaroslavich, Vladimir II Mstislavich, Andrei Bogolyubsky,Sviatoslav Vsevolodovich of Vladimir and so on. So at the very least we have a giant mess of inconsistency in this area. Still, I am not keen to have a fight over this. I just assumed that Russian Misplaced Pages is probably as neutral and accurate as can be in this matter, and attempted to follow its convention. But apparently they are wrong. Balcer 19:29, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Move

Does anyone agree on moving this to Constantine Pavlovich, Tsarevich of Russia or Constantine Pavlovich, Tsesarevich of Russia because that was his title and the fact that he turned down the throne doesn't erase the fact that he was once Tsesarevich? --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 02:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Viceroy?

My current research indicates there was never a viceroy of Congress Kingdom. There were Namestniks of Kingdom of Poland, but Constantine was not one of them. He seems to have held the posistion of commander-in-chief of the Kingdom's army, and while he was de facto 'second in the country after the tsar', there is no 'viceroy' posistion mentioned in the pl:Konstytucja Królestwa Polskiego. While Constantine might have been de facto viceroy because of his royal bloodline, namestniks were the official viceroys; I'll see if I can find info on his exact position and title (help appreciated).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 23:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Why did he turn down the Russian throne?

He didn't. Secretly he was an Ally to Louie XVIII, and Tollyrand, as Tzar Paul II and he gave immunity to the Bourbons while Napoleon was in power, and everything in Europe was in turmoil and even Russia was occupied twice by Bonaparte, and he himself aligned Russian Orthodox Catholicism and Modern Christianity in Russia, stemming from the Conclave. Earl 01/10/2014 The trigger for the Decembrist revolt appears to have been Constantine's refusal of the imperial succession. Why did he do it? Was it an apparently exceptional moment of awareness of his own undoubted limitations, or was he persuaded by Nicholas? And why did the Decembrists back his accession, since his policy as ruler of Poland seems to have been as reactionary as Nicholas could wish? I assume these interesting questions are discussed in the historical literature, and should at least be raised in the article. JamesWim 20:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a much better Wiki article Russian interregnum of 1825, better researched and referenced. (I had nothing to do with it, I am just admiring the work.) Some of the researched for that article could be brought into the article on Constantine as well.

Basically, Constantine never wanted to reign and refused the throne as far as 1823. Also, he was in an unequal marriage, which meant that his descendants would never be able to accede to the throne. Constantine's abdication was put into a secret manifesto by Alexander I, and then sealed until the latter's death, but Constantine was still titled as heir apparent, which meant that once Alexander died, he would still succeed automatically. That happened in 1825, and only after C refused the throne twice, the succession was passed to Nicholas. The Decembrists merely saw the confusion regarding succession as a golden opportunity for their coup-d'etat. You can read it all in books on Russian history - even the most general ones will have the basic facts. ouital77 (talk) 19:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

File:Grand Duke Constantine Pavlovich of Russia.PNG Nominated for Deletion

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Requested move 29 December 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. —usernamekiran (talk) 12:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Konstantin Pavlovich, Grand Duke of Russia → Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich of Russia – Per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility), which states "Where they have no substantive title, use the form "{title} {name} of {country}"". 2601:249:9301:D570:E3:EFC9:A6E5:50C8 (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Support. Standard titling for Russian grand dukes. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Categories: