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			== Wikihounding by Awshort ==
			user Awshort has been selectively invoking rules on the article for ]. It has taken me some time to really see how it was happenening, but finally today wrote on the talk page with examples of how they have been selectively and hypocritically enforcing rules on me (a new user).
			Additionally, as I mentioned in that post, at one point they accused me of asking another editor for help...which doesn't make any sense? It seems like they were trying to imply to me that I had done something wrong, but I read over some rules first to make sure I was allowed to ask for help. I'm still pretty sure I am! If not...let me know?
	Otherwise, if the notice is about the actions of an individual across several pages, then place the USERNAME of the individual in the header.
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			After my post today, Awshort started ]me.
	== Continuation of HOUNDing 12 days after last warning ==
			Here are diffs where they follow me around to pages it doesn't appear they have had any interest in prior:
	{{archive top|result=] imposed below.--v/r - ]] 19:17, 27 November 2012 (UTC)}}
			°
	{{User5|Belchfire}} has resumed the ]ing of Roscelese. He was 12 days ago on his talk page by Roscelese, but today he followed her to two articles he has never appeared at before, and edited against her work: and . She but I think this continuation is past warning—it's time for action.
	12 days ago I added my weight and perspective to the warning on Belchfire's page:		°
	{{quote|1=Hounding may include "actions calculated to be noticed by the target and clearly suggestive of targeting them", which exactly describes Belchfire's sudden interjections at articles that have been recently edited by Roscelese or myself. There was ] for Belchfire to suddenly appear for the first time at ] to , or to suddenly appear at ], ] and ] to revert Roscelese , and . Each of these appearances was Belchfire's first time showing up at these articles, and in each case it was directly counter to the target editor. It's a clear case of HOUNDing, and if it continues he's apt to earn time out."}}
	It is clear that he has not taken any of this to heart, that he does not consider his actions harmful. I think it is now time for "time out" for this disruptive and contentious editor. ] (]) 14:53, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
			°
	:Alas -- I looked, and did not see the blatant hounding two editors who are both active on WoW etc. assert. BF and Binksternet overlap on 34 articles - all of which fall into the ''same general category'' of politics, and none of which appear to be outside ''reasonable bounds'' for both to be interested in. BF and Roscelese overlap on a grand total of 54 articles -- also all within the same general area. Roscelese and Binksternet overlap on 169 articles -- which is a ''huge'' overlap, indeed. Covering a broad range of topics they both are coincidentally interested in. And if anyone were stalking them, they would surely hit some of those other articles. I have similar intersection numbers - and out of my 3K articles, I assure you that I do not "hound" anyone. In short - accept that articles ''in the same general sphere'' being edited by two editors does not indicate "hounding" at all. Cheers. ] (]) 16:26, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
			Now, I will of course acknowledge that on the third example, I did make a mistake. I thought I had only removed the text of the sentence, but looks as though I accidentally deleted part of the template too. I am unsure how that happened, so I will try to figure that out.
			Either way, Awshort's edit summary was not the language I hope experienced editors would use with newer editors like myself. I have mentioned multiple times in conversations that user Awshort is part of that I am a newer user, so they likely know that.
	:{{ec}} Of the two diffs you cite above, the second does not appear to be an "edit against her work", but a rewording of a couple of sentences that, as far as I can tell, she had nothing to do with; she just restored the material removed by another editor. Isn't Belchfire interested in LGBT articles? Is there something wrong with Belchfire's edits other than they are on the same articles as Roscelese's, who, btw, is also interested in LGBT articles? Hounding is a tough charge to sustain without hard evidence that the edits by the alleged hounder are actually unreasonable.--] (]) 16:31, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
			____
			I'll end by saying that this user's behavior is making me reconsider whether I want to devote any time to improving wikipedia. Truly. I've never made a report like this before, anywhere in my life, just to give you a sense of how frustrating and upsetting its been.
	::The key point is that Belchfire had never touched the articles in the links until he noticed that his hounding target went to that article. In the ] link he did not revert Roscelese directly but he edited the exact same paragraph that she had edited, and it was his first appearance there. I see his actions falling into the pattern of "actions calculated to be noticed by the target and clearly suggestive of targeting them" which is part of our hounding guideline. I feel that Belchfire has identified Roscelese as an editor who should be made to feel as uncomfortable as possible. This is hounding. ] (]) 21:40, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
	:: In my opinion the editing overlap goes beyond merely a shared interest in subject matter. When using one of the Toolserver tools, I discovered the number of pages on which Roscelese is being followed by Belchfire and the amount of time between edits, during the month of November 2012: . Compare that with my overlap with Binksternet, with whom I share several interests, and who I see quite frequently: . There's a big difference in the number of pages and the type of pages, and a big difference in the time interval as well. In my opinion this backs up the premise that Belchfire has been following Roscelese around. -- ] (]) 00:58, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::Dianna, have you checked any of the articles to see what Belchfire does with respect to Roscelese's edits?--] (]) 01:08, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::There's no control group. To assign meaning to the interaction report, we'd need to see the total list of distinct articles Belchfire edited in November. Additionally, the report is sensitive to the date range selected; selecting a different period can show a different apparent picture. See and . <small>]</small> 01:57, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::@Bbb23: what kind of edits Belchfire does is immaterial; he could just show up a few minutes after Roscelese edits and do a productive edit. Do that enough times, and people start to think it's not a coincidence. @Ent: I didn't want to put up a lot of examples and then have to notify a bunch of uninvolved people that they were mentioned here. But suffice to say that I did do several other comparisons. But you know what they say about statistics; I could be misinterpreting what I'm seeing. I think we should wait for Belchfire to comment -- ] (]) 02:33, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
			I hope that this is the right forum for this. If not, my apologies, and please let me know where to redirect this to.
	*Hey. Thanks Binksternet for bringing this here. Anyway, as the following links will show, Belchfire demonstrates (at least of late, I'm not looking back further at the moment) a pattern of editing that is clearly a) following me to articles, b) undoing my edits for c) no productive purpose.
	:: Reverts my removal of a redundant category from some ''Sherlock'' articles (they're all in the "Sherlock episodes" category already). Has never edited the articles before, it's nowhere near his topic area, clearly got there from my edit history, the edit is counterproductive in that it adds an unnecessary category that impedes proper navigation.
	:: Reverts my restoration of reliably sourced material removed by a vandal. Only prior edit to the article was a minor copyedit in August. (and later popped up again, once again for the sole purpose of removing reliably sourced material which I had been the most recent user to add)
	:: Reverts my edit in order to restore content that is not in the source and that makes no sense (the four-letter abbreviation "LGBT" contains the letter "I" for intersex? has reading changed since I learned it as a child?). Has never edited the article; it's theoretically possible that he got there through the project watchlist, but combined with the other instances of his hounding me to articles in order to pointlessly revert me, it's clearly not coincidental.
	:It seems clear to me that Belchfire is sulking about being called out on his persistent edit-warring at ] and choosing to take it out on users he perceives as foiling his personal political agenda, but that, unfortunately for him, is not what Misplaced Pages is here for. He has twice warnings about his behavior and thereafter continued said behavior, so it is likewise clear that further warnings will not be enough to get him to edit collaboratively with, rather than vindictively against, other users. –] (] &sdot; ]) 04:26, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
	:: I've just had a look at the edits Roscelese points to. They are pretty damming. Belchfire should get at least a stern talking to, if not more. ] (]) 10:21, 24 November 2012 (UTC)		Thanks for taking a look.] (]) 08:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	::: I think an admin should give a final "cease and desist" warning to Belchfire. If he continues a block and/or one-way interaction ban should be imposed. does not bode well. ] (]) 12:02, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::: The messages diff'ed above-- which including allegations of "sulking," "spite" and demands for the editor to "grow up," are as much escalatory attacks as anything. <small>]</small> 13:41, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Are you suggesting that my response to Belchfire's harassment retroactively justifies the harassment? I would suggest that you re-think that. –] (] &sdot; ]) 00:04, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	If the edits are productive, they clearly do not appear to be '' in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work'' which means they do not fit the definition of "hound" on Misplaced Pages. ''The important component of wikihounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing.'' Also not apparently present in the "case" at hand. Again - there appear to be as many cases where ''each'' editor "edited first" which means this is all an absurd exercise worthy of Becket (Samuel). ] (]) 13:00, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
	::"If the edits are productive" is a big ''if'', since, as I've demonstrated, they're all destructive edits that appear to have been thought through no further than the degree to which they would inconvenience productive users. –] (] &sdot; ]) 00:04, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::When problem editors present themselves, it is perfectly acceptable to monitor their contributions from time to time. When the last "warning" was issued about 2 weeks ago I examined the Sherlock Holmes related article and thought that BF's revert of your edit was perfectly reasonable. In fact I raised this question on BF's talk page. Not until you posted on this thread did I understand your perfectly reasonable explanation. Your claim that BF's edits were destructive and were done out of malice flies in the face of reason. Such behavior and boorish communication skills does not rise to the level of AGF.&nbsp;&nbsp;]{{SubSup||]|]}} 01:41, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::Can you explain what behavior of mine you feel justifies the harassment, and why you believe the appropriate action in response ''is'' harassment instead of the usual WP processes? –] (] &sdot; ]) 03:51, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::The fact that you ''feel'' harrased does not mean mean a perfectly innocuous edit ''constitutes'' harrassment. That is something for the community to determine via this thread. I dont think it's unlikely that BF is the first editor to look at anothers contributions and made subsequent improvements to articles outside of their normal scope.&nbsp;&nbsp;]{{SubSup||]|]}} 04:50, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	:All that has been demonstrated is Belchfire has edited content that other editors ''agreed can be edited, used and redistributed by other people at will.''<small>]</small> 13:41, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Is that the response you give when someone blanks an article and replaces it with "penis"? When someone makes the same revert six times in two hours? Of course not. The fact that Misplaced Pages content can be edited at will is never an excuse for bad behavior. Please don't give such poorly thought out excuses for him, this is a serious discussion. –] (] &sdot; ]) 00:04, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::There's been no evidence Belchfire has done either behavior -- if they have, please provide diffs. <small>]</small> 01:20, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::It seemed obvious to ''me'' that these were examples chosen to point out that your comment did not contribute to this discussion. Vandalism is still against policy even though WP content can be edited at will; edit-warring (such as Belchfire's at ]) is still against policy even though WP content can be edited at will; harassment of other users is still against policy even though WP content can be edited at will. –] (] &sdot; ]) 03:47, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	: Belchfire has declined to participate in this discussion: {{diff|User talk:Belchfire|prev|524601601|Diff of User talk:Belchfire}} -- ] (]) 16:13, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
	::If I thought there was a valid, credible complaint to address here, I would have done so. There isn't. Prior to Roscelese's last attempt to smear me, it seemed to me that Collect and Bbb23 were doing a fine job of diffusing the nonsense. But that was before this: ''"Is that the response you give when someone blanks an article and replaces it with "penis"? When someone makes the same revert six times in two hours?"'' And with that, I think it should be easy enough to see what's really going on here - this is a naked failure of AGF on the part of Roscelese and Binksternet. (Note the lack of diffs to go along with that pair of bombshell accusations.)
	::As I specified in the edit summary that Diana brought forward, yes, these two editors are simply paranoid. Both spend a ''huge'' proportion of their time here working on LGBT-related articles (or in Roscelese's case, articles related to feminism), and both have a solid track record of ownership behavior and/or taking things personally when others do not agree with their worldviews. (Roscelese, for her part, is not above outright censorship when she sees something that she doesn't like. )
	::What we have here is (1) a content dispute, rather than a behavioral issue; and (2) an attempt by political-activist editors to silence their opposition . Neither of these add-up to a matter for ANI action, other than a potential boomerang. For further explanation, and for your continued edification, I direct your attention to ]. ]-] 00:30, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::Ah yes, that's a ''great'' example of how you follow policy in the LGBT topic area and I do not. My removal of the Prop 8 protests from your synthesized article on gay terrorism! Well chosen. –] (] &sdot; ]) 03:47, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	:I don't usually comment on this board so apologies if I don't get the protocol quite right. It does appear that a lot of the complaints about Belchfire's behaviour focus on Binksternet's opinions of the ''motives'' behind the edits rather than the edits themselves. It therefore seems that there is a failure to AGF by Binksternet. I would also suggest that Roscelese either strikes the "penis" comment or provides diffs. Love and peace.] 01:41, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	::The argument that Belchfire might have only good motives would be more convincing if he hadn't continued the behavior after being warned on two separate occasions that it constituted harassment and was against Misplaced Pages policy. Generally, if one is misbehaving with good intentions, one ceases the misbehavior upon finding out that it is such, but instead, Belchfire removed the warnings with edit summaries consisting of personal attacks, and continued harassing me. Also see my response above to NE Ent. –] (] &sdot; ]) 03:47, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::That he was warned that he was harassing means squat really. Maybe warn him to stop beating his wife as well. Has an uninvolved admin warned him? Maybe I missed that, and if I did, I apologize. --] (]) 03:57, 25 November 2012 (UTC)Sorry, it looks like ] is taking your side here. Has she warned him before? --] (]) 04:03, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Tigerboy1966, after many, many examples to the contrary I stopped thinking that Belchfire's edits are made in good faith. This is not a conclusion I have arrived at lightly! No, it is serious business, hinging upon what is good or bad for Misplaced Pages. The administrator Swatjester looked into the problem and ], showing an extensive string of Belchfire diffs to prove that there was a pattern of bad behavior. The same Swatjester list was brought to ANI by Justdafax in the ], but neither of these efforts appear to have helped Belchfire change his ways. What I'm pointing to here is not a small problem! It is a small part of an extended problem: Belchfire's tendentious editing behavior. ] (]) 04:10, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::After having looked at just the diffs presented here, the conclusion that this is harassment is completely obvious to me, as someone who has never before looked at the problem (and hasn't significantly interacted with either party as best as memory serves). Each edit, taken individually, seems trivial. But some are so obviously wrong (particularly those presented by Roscelese), that it simply stretches the bounds of credulity to think that Belchfire was just randomly improving articles of interest to him. This is the exact equivalent of ] tactics, wherein the harasser doesn't do anything abhorrent, but instead takes small actions over a period of time designed to make the other person feel unwelcome. Here, the simple fact that Belchfire is showing up and reverting edits which are required per policy (I'm thinking here, for example, of the re-addition of parent categories in the Sherlock examples) is a way of saying "Hey, Roscelese, I'm here. Did you want to edit? No, I don't know if you can handle that." Roscelese is then placed in a position of having to be perfect every time, or then expect to see Belchfire come in and revert the edit; and, again, in the Sherlock case, even when perfect, is compelled to get involved in a dispute for something that isn't by our rules disputable. To be honest, I think that, at the bare minimum, Belchfire should be forbidden from reverting Roscelese or from re-working those things which Roscelese has recently done. If Roscelese does make a legitimate "error", there are thousands of other editors who can fix it. Should such a commitment not be forthcoming from Belchfire, blocking seems like the next step. ] (]) 08:16, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::Fully agree with Qwyrxian. It's a vio of ] in my view. ]]] 11:45, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	===Belchfire interaction ban===
	{{archive top|result=Reviewing the proposal below, I saw very very little in opposition of a interaction ban on Belchfire. Most of the opposition below was on whether or not to impose one solely on Belchfire or not. I fall into the category of folks who believes that one way interaction bans are not effective. However, I see much more support in favor of the one way interaction ban (I refer to those who specifically stated as much) which includes an Arb (acting in a non Arb capacity of course) who has a lot of experience in dispute resolution endorsing that one way interaction bans can be effective. So I think it's safe to say that consensus below supports at least an interaction ban on Belchfire and discussion on whether one way bans should even be allowed can continue at ]. This decision can be amended with the result of that discussion if a two-way interaction ban becomes necessary by greater consensus. As for now, Belchfire is no longer allowed to interact with, comment about, or edit in contradiction with Roscelese on any page, talk page, or other space on Misplaced Pages with the exception of appealing this decision (which does not include more complaining about Roscelese) or engaging in dispute resolution or Arbcom (of course). Any uninvolved administrator may enforce this ] with the normal progressive actions starting with 1 day blocks (at the uninvolved administrator's discretion).--v/r - ]] 19:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)}}
	I propose that Belchfire be restricted from interacting with Roscelese per ]. Roscelese would be encouraged not to interact with Belchfire, to reduce friction, but she would not be saddled with a corollary interaction ban. ] (]) 17:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' - per Binksternet and Qwyrxian. We either uphold Misplaced Pages's rules or we don't. ]]] 18:52, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' Qwyrxian's explanation of the events seems to be accurate. ]<sup>]</sup></font> 20:51, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	*Assuming my !vote as an involved user is admissible, I obviously '''support''' such a ban, since less following me around and reverting my productive edits is better both for my comfort as an editor and for Misplaced Pages's content and policy enforcement. –] (] &sdot; ]) 21:18, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	*I hate more rules, but I would prefer that both editors follow the rules laid out at IBAN. It seems that would difuse things greatly. --] (]) 21:33, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' One way interaction bans are problematic at best - and in the case at hand, it certainly appears the problems were ''not'' only in that one direction. '''Make it two way or none at all''' and let Misplaced Pages processes work normally. I commend editors to read the ArbCom discussions thereon, and see how poorly the "one way bans" work in general. And I suggest that Binksternet be included as well, as it is clear that Binksternet is part and parcel of this particular conflict. Cheers. ] (]) 21:47, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''', per Qwyrxian's sound analysis. ] (]) 21:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''', I can see why Binksternet and Roscelese think that there has been hounding, but I don't feel that the case has been proved. I think everyone involved should stop using edit summaries inappropriately. ] 22:21, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' if it's not imposed in all directions, as per Collect's comment above. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:34, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	*:How is it even possible for you to interact with someone who is banned from interacting with you. I guess the proposer wishes to make it clear who is the culprit and who is the victim, but is it really necessary? How could Roscelese even '''inter'''act with Belchfire without Belchfire interacting with Roscelese? ---] ] 22:37, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	*::Precisely. The one editor could freely post on the other editor's page, and the other editor would be breaking the ban by responding to it. Nope, it's both ways or no ways. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 00:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*:::Reality check: Roscelese doesn't WANT to interact with Belchfire. Perhaps you've forgotten '''it's the reason she brought this action in the first place'''. Congrats on falling for a phony false-equivalency argument. -- ] | ] 02:55, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*::::Given that, an interaction ban on Rosce should be no problem for anyone. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 08:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*::::::Given that you don't seem to understand the point -- perhaps you should look up the word "fair"? -- maybe you shouldn't ask ridiculous questions. And here's one for you: who in this situation is thee one with the self-control problm that needs disciplining? Hint: the name doesn't begin with "R". --] | ] 14:15, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*:::::::It is ''you'' that doesn't understand. You can't impose a one-way interaction ban. If you want to ban Fire from the ''topic'', that's a different argument. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose'''. If there's going to be an interaction ban, it must be bidirectional. That then assumes that Roscelese is to be sanctioned as well as Belchfire, which doesn't make much sense given the evidence presented. To the extent there is a consensus that Belchfire has been hounding Roscelese (I expressed an early opinion to the contrary, but I haven't looked at all the diffs subsequent to that opinion), then Qwyrxian's idea of blocking IF Belchfire persists makes much more sense to me.--] (]) 22:41, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	**If you are saying that Belchfire should be blocked if he reverts Roscelese again, I should think we have already arrived there. He was warned two weeks ago by Roscelese and myself but he picked up his hounding of her 12 days later. Will we warn him again and again with never any action? ] (]) 02:22, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' per Qwyrxian. The hounding needs to end now, and it is coming from Belchfire. ] (]) 22:46, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	* '''Oppose''' per Collect. <small>]</small> 23:35, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	* '''Support''' per Collect, given how nonsensical his comments were. ---] | ] 01:49, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:*Uh, Collect opposed.--] (]) 01:54, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::*He's saying he's voting opposite of whichever way Collect votes. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 02:05, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::*You're so much more clever than I am, BB, thanks.--] (]) 02:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::*{{small|Sometimes I'm so smart it almost frightens me. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 02:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)}}
	:::::"Don't pat yourslf on the back just yet: ''He's saying he's voting opposite of whichever way Collect votes'' is not what I said. Hint: your "whichever" is imaginary. --] | ] 02:38, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::::*Yes, it's the square root of negative one. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 08:39, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::*So, not as smart as you think, then. Stick to recycling Borscht Belt jokes. --] | ] 14:15, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::*Well, I'm obviously a lot dumber than you are, so you'll need to explain this to us: Under what circumstances would Rosco ''ever'' need to interact with BurpFlame, or whatever its name is? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:32, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' with just the way Blinksternet proposed. On principle, we cannot tell the victim that they must avoid the harasser, but it is well-understood that if the victim is the one to initiate interaction, the harasser isn't suddenly required to run. That is, when you get a restraining order against someone, you can't then follow them around, forcing them to run they required number of meters away. So if Roscelese for some reason tried to take advantage of this in articles where the two have an existing history, that would be grounds to extend it to a bidirectional ban, but absent some evidence that that would occur, the thing that matters is to make the harassment stop. ] (]) 02:16, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	**From what you're saying, Rosco will be ''effectively'' banned from interacting with Fire anyway, so you might as well make it official. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 02:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	***That would be saying Roscelese was at fault, which she was not. She didn't follow Belchfire to articles about road racing, and revert him. ] (]) 02:39, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::Doesn't matter, IBANS are two-way by default. That's just how it is.
	::::And by the way, using your own logic and standards of conduct, YOU should draw an IBAN for this edit: ]-] 02:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Get over yourself, Belchfire: the reason she brought this up in the first place is precisely BECAUSE she doesn't want to interact with you. Sorry, but she's just not that into you, and your and Collect's false equivalency attempt to slap the Scarlet Letter that rightfully belongs to you alone is dishonest. ---] | ] 02:50, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::::Regardless, Rosco can't be allowed to address or refer to Fire in any way, shape, or form, as it would be unfair - Fire could not respond, as it would violate his interaction ban. So it ''has to be'' bidirectional. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 08:39, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::"Has to be"? Pay attention: who's got the self-control problem? Hint: the name begins with "B". --] | ] 14:15, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:*We can't know that every current and future admin will share Qwyrian's interpretation of a one-way ban. In fact, a arbcom request shows they can be quite contentious. Given documented overlap in Roscelese's and Belchfire's editing interests, interpretation of a ban would be problematic. Would mean a topic ban for Belchfire for any article Roscelese has ever edited? <small>]</small> 12:29, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*An <u>''inter''</u>action ban cannot be one-sided. By definition. ] <sup>]</sup> 03:10, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Of course it can, because "interaction ban" doesn't mean only "cannot interact". It also means "you cannot interact. If you do interact, then we'll have to block you from editing Misplaced Pages entirely, because we have no technical means to enforce an interaction ban." Placing an interaction ban on Belchfire imposes a strong burden on him to ensure that he does not step in and edit in places where Roscelese is also editing. If Belchfire errs (either out of poor judgment or out of a simple mistake), there are consequences. By not placing the interaction ban similarly on Roscelese, she holds no such responsibility. Again, when you get a restraining order against someone, that does not bind your own activities, with the only caveat being that if you seem to be deliberately flaunting or inciting the harasser (like, say, showing up outside his place of work every day), someone might successfully argue that you don't really want to be restrained. ] (]) 04:54, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::No. The ''"inter"'' in ''inter'' action requires two acting entities. Always. One entity alone can never cause ''"inter"''. ] <sup>]</sup> 05:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::It appears your beef is with the name "interaction ban" rather than with the proposal that Belchfire stop following Roscelese around. Would you agree with that assessment? ] (]) 05:32, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Frankly, ] is poorly written. The first part of it is all in the plural, e.g., " they are banned from interacting with each other in any way." However, the example given is only from the point of one editor. Not particularly helpful, putting aside the practical issues of a one-way ban.--] (]) 02:31, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::Seb az86556: that's pretty far-fetched semantic squabbling. But it's poor semantics. "Interaction", by definition, involves two people, but it doesn't entail shared causation. If A addresses B, then even without B's actively doing anything, by definition, A and B have interacted. A single person can force interaction on another, e.g. by engaging in unsollicited postings on the other person's talkpage or by entering a discussion in which the other person was previously involved. If a single person can do it, then a single person can also be told to not do it, and that's exactly what a non-mutual interaction ban does. ] ] 18:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' - There's a deeper issue here. An IBAN is an extreme measure, and when it gets to that level, it's time to analyze it more objectively. No one's to blame, mind you. Of all the nastiest disagreements I've had in my years here, an IBAN was never even on the table. We talked it out. Maybe I'm just lucky. ] ] 05:11, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::That's because this isn't a disagreement—it's harassment. You can't talk those kind of matters out, because it's a fundamentally inappropriate set of behaviors by one party. ] (]) 06:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::: Generally speaking, I agree completely. Haven't dissected this case (yet)... ] ] 06:34, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' If people are unwilling to make a one-way interaction ban (terrible idea as they are easily gamed) and others dont want a two-way as they dont want to 'punish' Rosce, what options are left? Topic ban Belchfire from Rosce's areas of editing? If the goal is to keep one away from the other without punishing the victim, thats the only way outside of an IB to do it. ] (]) 10:37, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:*Not quite true. If the basis for the IBAN is because of ], that says, " If "following another user around" is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter and could result in blocks and other editing restrictions." So, assuming one agrees that Belchfire meets those conditions, they could be blocked.--] (]) 02:28, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' I don't get Collect's response, Rosce isn't at fault here, and a two way ban punishes an editor who is not problematic. There is only one way forward, and that's a one way interaction ban. ] (]) 18:40, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' - I was on the fence until I saw that Belchfire's to the ] article was the very next edit after an edit by Roscelese. There is sufficient evidence to support the proposed interaction ban of Belchfire based on ]. If Roscelese starts stalking BelchFire, then that will be a discussion for a different day.
			:Hello, Delectopierre, if you have had any discussions where you actually tried to talk out your differences with this editor, please provide a link to them. They might be on User talk pages or article talk pages or noticeboards. But it's typically advised that you communicate directly with an editor before opening a case on ANI or AN and don't rely on communication like edit summaries. Also, if you haven't, you need to notify any editors you mention about this discussion. They should be invited to participate here. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
	:I am concerned, however, that an interaction ban may not be sufficient to have any lasting impact on Belchfire's willingness to participate in the collaborative, civil editing environment that we are trying to maintain. He has had numerous warnings and a few blocks, so there has been ample opportunity for self-correction. I'm very hopeful that Belchfire will turn the corner soon, and learn to play well with others, but if not, I would imagine that an indef block might be in his future. - ]] 21:58, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			::There isn't. I don't feel comfortable discussing wikihounding with them. It is, after all, harassment. ] (]) 09:20, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Although I did link to my post today where I confronted them with their behavior (except the wikihounding, as it hadn't happened yet). So that is an attempt to discuss the other part.
			:::But after I tried to discuss it, instead of responding to it, they started wikhounding me. ] (]) 09:22, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Maybe you should spend less energy “confronting” and more energy discussing and trying to learn from more experienced editors. ] (]) 13:38, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I try to learn when experienced editors engage with me in a helpful and respectful manner. Your comment does not fit that description.
			:::::As an aside, I wasn't aware that non-admin, IP-only editors, who are <u>not</u> involved with the incidents I've reported would be participating in this discussion. ] (]) 23:52, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:I've notified Awshort as it still hasn't been done. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 15:05, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Thank you, ActivelyDisinterested for doing so. ], you should have notified ] yourself, there are messages instructing editors to do so all over this page including on the edit notice that you see any time you post a comment here. As I said, you are also advised to discuss disputes first with involved editors before posting on a noticeboard. ANI is where you come for urgent, intractable problems, it's the last place you go when other methods of dispute resolution haven't worked. This also looks like a standard content disagreement regarding ] and the fact that Awshort reverted one of your edits. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:15, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Hi @] as I noted above, I attempted to discuss their behavior ], and their response was to wikihound me.
			:::As I said ] I don't feel comfortable discussing what feels like and seems to be harrasment, directly with them, as it felt like intimidation to stop confronting them about what I see as bad behavior on the article. I was waiting for a reply to that statement before proceeding.
			:::Is there really no process that allows for an instance when an editor feels uncomfortable? ] (]) 23:31, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I will also add that it appears as though this is '''not''' the first occurrence of this type of behavior, based ] by @]. I don't, however, know any of the details. ] (]) 23:35, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Re-reading your comment, @]:
			:::I think I’ve been unclear. The content dispute is a content dispute. You’re right about that.
			:::That is '''NOT''' why I posted here. I posted here because the content dispute spilled off that article and has now resulted in wikihounding. The wikihounding, specifically, is why I posted here. ] (]) 05:08, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I have closed the discussion with the rationale "Nothing more to do here. See ] and ]." ]] 13:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Could you please explain your rationale? I don’t follow. ] (]) 17:36, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::First, thank you {{u|ActivelyDisinterested}} for the initial ping and {{u|Liz}} for the follow-up ping. The majority of this is over the ] article as a whole, but there have been some policy issues sprinkled throughout. {{u|Delectopierre}} anyone can participate in noticeboard discussions whether involved or not, the 'IP-only editor' you referenced has more edits than both of us combined, and registration is not a requirement to edit Misplaced Pages nor participate in community noticeboards.
			:::{{tq|they follow me around to pages it doesn't appear they have had any interest in prior}} - That isn't since I post on the BLPN often, as well as using it to find articles I can help out on since I mainly focus on editing BLP's. I checked out the BLPN, noticed it was missing a discussion of interest from earlier in the day (Maynard James Keenan) and checked the edit history to see if it was removed for a reason. I saw the previous edit by DP had it as well as another discussion so I restored it. That wasn't me 'hounding' them, that was me fixing an error so other discussions could continue. I checked DP's edit history later to see if any similar edits had been made recently in case those needed fixed as well, saw the edit history for edit with the summary ''critics don't accuse him of anti-semitism. he is an antisemite,'' and checked the edit which had been changed to calling the person that. The prior had the edit summary of ''adding back david icke qualifier'', so I checked that one as well since I assumed it would be similar. When it was confirmed, I reverted since it seemed a BLP violation as well as ]. Since there was a talk page discussion regarding the prior one, I that I had removed it from another article as well, in case it went to a noticeboard both could be noted. It is worth noting that the edit I was originally a few months prior by the same user. I think most editors would have acted in the similar manner regarding the edits and I stand behind them.
			:::I think {{tq|Awshort's edit summary was not the language I hope experienced editors would use with ''newer editors like myself''.}} is somewhat disingenuous when on their first full day of editing the Lorenz article after being registered since 2018 and mostly inactive they seemed to know enough policies to quote them in their edit summaries (, , ), their that to BLPN referenced NPOV,  as well as learning other policies that were left on their talk page ( by {{u|TheSandDoctor}}, by {{u|Little Professor}}).
			:::And it's hard to reply to the linked conversation above where it's implied I'm hounding in the closing with only one side of the story presented.
			:::] (]) 13:50, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::"I checked DP's edit history later to see if any similar edits had been made recently in case those needed fixed as well,"
			::::]
			::::"Hounding on Misplaced Pages (or "wikihounding") is the singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work."
			::::I don't understand how this isn't open and shut. ] (]) 21:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::The same section that you're quoting also says {{tq|Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or '''correcting related problems on multiple articles'''.}} (bold added) ]&nbsp;] 21:56, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::There is nothing related about the other articles they followed me to, and I fail to see how the problems are related. The only common denominator is me. They will, I'm sure, say they're all BLP. Doesn't matter, tons of this encyclopedia is BLP and if Awshort feels I shouldn't be editing any BLP, there are methods of addressing that belief that don't include following me around wikipedia to make sure I don't do anything they disagree with. ] (]) 04:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It's only hounding if they act on it. You need to show at least a few diffs that they are editing on a page you are editing, and they would not have been interested in it otherwise. If they are stalking your history, but do nothing, its technically non-actionable. ] (]) 22:17, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Those diffs are in my original post. ] (]) 04:30, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Also going "this editor made problmatic edits, I should check their history to make sure they haven't made more, and fix any others they've made" is most assuredly ''not'' hounding. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:39, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::After a long winded disagreement on a talk page that included them starting multiple edit wars, my view is there are ''much'' better ways of addressing this. For example, they could have started a conversation on my talk page.
			::::::Additionally, who is to say which edits are problematic? I view a number of edits Awshort made as problematic, so I disengaged from the conversation rather than continuing to go in circles.
	* '''Oppose''' Per collect & from ] (emphasis added)
	::Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and '''joining discussions on multiple pages or topics''' they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. ... The important component of wikihounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, '''for no overriding reason'''
			::::::Lastly, could you help me understand how a non-admin editor checking another editor's history and reverting their edits is not hounding? It seems to fit the definition of hounding.
	:Not to wiki-laywer, but dif BF jump into the talk pages on these articles? Perhaps the policy wording needs to be tweaked. But ignoring whether or not that BF did not engage Rosecelese on talk pages is germane to the intent of ] BF's edits to articles like ] were perfectly ''reasonable'' edits. The paucity of diffs provided does not rise to the "creepiness" factor yet needed for me to support sanctions.&nbsp;&nbsp;]{{SubSup||]|]}} 00:52, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	::That's why I was opposed, but you have expressed it much more effectively. There's also a slight sense of "let's skip the verdict and get onto the sentencing" about all this. ] 09:02, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' per Qwyrxian.--<font face="bold">]]</font> 09:24, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' Let the dude do whatever he wants, man. He's just editing some stuff. Everyone needs to chillaxulate a little. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	*'''Oppose''' as per Collect, Baseball Bugs, and Bbb23. One-way interaction bans are both oxymoronic and simply moronic. I will support a two-way ban. ''']''' <small>]</small> 16:20, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	*:Why, exactly, should we sanction people who are hounded? Has Roscelese responded to the hounding with similar actions (following him around, letting him know that she's "watching" etc.)? --] (]) 16:51, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::I do not believe that one-way interaction bans are an effective way of dealing with the issue. While I recognize that the issue currently appears to be one-way, setting it up so that that editor no longer can respond at all will cause issues should the behavior of the other editor change. Judging from the entrenched positions from a number of editors on both sides of the issue (particularly these two), I don't think that the one-way ban is a good idea. I wouldn't be averse to noting in the ] that the interaction ban is not a ''sanction'' against Roscelese, but I don't like the idea of one-way interaction bans, especially because of ideological opposition over a wide range of articles. ''']''' <small>]</small> 17:55, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support'''. The case for a bidirectional interaction ban as proposed by several users has not been made. Judging from the diffs presented, the hounding is coming from Belchfire, not Roscelese. The suggestion that the hounding victim deserved or provoked the hounding doesn't convince me (to put it mildly). Belchfire needs to adjust his behavior and stop hounding Roscelese. Warnings didn't help, perhaps an interaction ban will. --] (]) 16:41, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''', regardless of the fact that it would be a "one-way" interaction ban. There is a real issue with blaming the target even in clear hounding cases. In this case, the edits clearly show one editor following a good faith editor around the project. The end result is disruptive and the fact that we allow these cases to escalate all too often has a very poisonous effect on the project. <small><span class='nounderlines' style="text-decoration:none"><font face="tahoma"><font color="#df1620">]</font>&nbsp;<font color="#6b6c6d">]</font></font></span></small> 16:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support'''. The complaints that a One-way iBan is not symmetric and opens the door to gaming are hogwash. It has already been demonstrated that Roscelese does not want to interact with Belchfire. It logically makes sense that Roscelese has self imposed a interaction ban on themselves, therefore the only thing the community needs to do is to involuntarily clap the irons on Belchfire. If Roscelese begins using the sanctions to eject Belchfire out of the topic in a form of ] we can revisit the sanctions at that time. Throwing the Baby out with the bath water is not the solution. ] (]) 17:30, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	* This shouldn't even have gotten this far. If I'd seen this blatant hounding prior to it getting to ANI (where the response has been absolutely predictable, especially who is showing up to oppose any action) I'd have issued a block. Frankly, there is no need for a "one-way interaction ban" here: we just need to start enforcing our existing rules on hounding. Let's just call this Belchfire's final warning, with a week off the next time he finds his way to a random page off his usual beaten track to revert or otherwise get in Roscelese's face. That's what the ban would be in effect anyway. ] (]) 17:42, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' - I think the mechanics of one-way interaction bans would be improved if there were an explicit condition that if the one who was allowed to chose to initiate contact, the other would be allowed to respond in kind (which is most likely moot in this particular case as Roscelese clearly wants nothing to do with Belchfire). That way, we wouldn't be getting bogged down on something like this when it is clear sanctions of some sort ought to be implemented. ] (]) 17:46, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''IBAN policy''': For those who are questioning whether Misplaced Pages allows single-person interaction bans, I have started a discussion thread at ]. Feel free to surf over there and voice your concerns. Note that the current IBAN wording alternates between singular and plural, which is why I concluded that a unilateral IBAN is possible; an alternate to dual IBANs. ] (]) 18:11, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''General comment''': I haven't reviewed the specifics of this dispute, but in my experience, a one-way interaction ban is sometimes justified. See for example ], a decision that I wrote. In that case, the alternative to a one-way interaction ban would not have been a two-way interaction ban, but an outright site-ban for the party at fault. ] (]) 18:29, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	*I agree with Brad. It's not unusual to include as an unblock condition, for example, a requirement that the unblocked editor leave another editor alone. There's no reason we as a community can't simply say "Person A, stop bothering Person B." That's all a one-way interaction ban really is. ] (]) 18:36, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			::::::] (]) 04:36, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Need help with an impending religious POV dispute ==
			:::::::Easy. Someone sees you made an edit they consider problematic. They go and check your other edits to see if you made other problematic edits. They revert any problematic edits they find. Being an admin or not has nothing to do with it. If they ''continually'' do this over a period of time, then it may be hounding. If they go through it once because they noticed something, it's not. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Fair enough. Thanks. ] (]) 21:33, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::{{tq|After a long winded disagreement on a talk page ''that included them starting multiple edit wars''}} - Ignoring the dig about 'long winded disagreement' and just pointing out the following since I was accused yet again of something else
			:::::::<ol>'''##''' 'Attempts to discredit her work'
			:::::::# of RollingStone reference and 'attempts to discredit her work' text by DP on Aug 17, 24
			:::::::# removes on Dec 11 with ] as reason.
			:::::::# by DP Dec 13, empty edit summary.
			:::::::# again by FMSky with same edit summary
			:::::::# by DP with no edit summary, again
			:::::::# moves text further down based on what the included reference says.
			:::::::# by DP
			:::::::</ol>
			:::::::{{pb}}
			:::::::<ol>'''##''' 'Doxxing standard part of the reporting process'
			:::::::# of text about doxxing, 'standard part of the reporting process' by DP Aug 17, 24
			:::::::# in Nov 27 by myself, as it was already included with the same reference earlier in the paragraph.
			:::::::# shortly after by DP
			:::::::# on Nov 28 with a quote on what the text of the included reference actually stated, which was not what was included.
			:::::::</ol>{{pb}}
			:::::::<ol>'''##''' Podcast
			:::::::# section added Aug 17 by DP
			:::::::# some of the podcast text that seemed promotional and wasn't supported by the included reference Nov 27
			:::::::# by DP Nov 27
			:::::::# both the Podcast reinsertion, and the previous reporting texts on Nov 28 with the same reasoning and asked to take it to TP and try to obtain consensus before insertion again.
			:::::::</ol>{{pb}}
			:::::::<ol>'''##''' 'Assaulted'
			:::::::# section which included 'assaulted' added Aug 17 by DP
			:::::::# the word assaulted from the harassment section on Nov 28 since it was covered in her career section.
			:::::::# by DP on Dec 3 as ]
			:::::::# per talk, undue, and covered in Career Dec 14
			:::::::<ol>{{pb}}
			:::::::<ol>'''##''' 'Coordinated'
			:::::::# removed the word coordinated under BLP grounds (accusing Tucker Carlson of coordinating attacks) Dec 14
			:::::::# by DP on Dec 24
			:::::::# per WP:SYNTH since the word wasn't in the included reference on Dec 24</ol>
			:::::::{{pb}}
			:::::::It isn't limited to just this article, though. {{pb}}
			:::::::<ol>'''##''' 'Anti-Semitic'
			:::::::# label of ] added on April 9
			:::::::# by Zane362 Nov 11
			:::::::# by DP Dec 26
			:::::::# by myself on Dec 27
			:::::::</ol>
			:::::::{{pb}}{{pb}}
			:::::::It seems like the very definition of ] {{tq|An editor reverts justified article changes by different editors repeatedly over an extended period to protect a certain version, stable or not.}} This isn't entirely an "I don't like Awshort messing with my edits" issue; this is a "I don't like anyone messing with my edits" issue.
			:::::::{{pb}}
			:::::::::Coincidentally, its also covered in ] at ]: {{tq|It is also not harassment to track a user's contributions for policy violations (see above); that is part of what editor contribution histories are for. ''Editors do not own article content, or their own edits, and any other editor has the right to revert edits as appropriate. Unwarranted resistance to such efforts may be a sign of ownership behavior and lead to sanctions.''}}
			:::::::{{pb}}
			:::::::On almost every attempt to edit text inserted by DP, be it by other editors or myself, editors are met with resistance. That includes when their text that was inserted is changed in any manner, including being reworded or moved.
			:::::::] (]) 19:59, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from ] ==
	{{archive top|result=Indefinitely blocked for battleground attitude. Clear religious POV edits.--v/r - ]] 18:51, 27 November 2012 (UTC)}}
			], a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	I hope this isn't too pre-emptive for ANI, but ] has made some edits to ] that unquestionably violate both ] and ]. I despise ANI and drama in all its forms but, based on my past interactions with this user (which unfortunately entailed edit warring and personal attacks on his/her part), I can say with complete certainty that this isn't going to be resolved by any means short of admin intervention. Thanks. ]&nbsp;<sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 08:26, 25 November 2012 (UTC)<br />
			:You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use <nowiki>{{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~</nowiki> on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --] (]) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	The edits: and , and a revert: . ]&nbsp;<sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 08:29, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
			::On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics ( and ), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is , again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute.
			::Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --] (]) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally and , despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, . I asked him to , but .
			::::I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already , the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please.] ] 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. ] ] 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::And here's explicit transphobia. It's her '''daughter''', no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:The article had clear Anti-Messianic bias, accusing Messianic Jews (of which I am one) who share their faith (per 1 Corinthians 3:5-7 and Romans 10:17) of proselytizing--which, per 1 Corinthians 3:5-7, Messianic Jews do not do. According to Webster's, proselytizing is " to induce someone to convert to one's faith". Messianic Jews believe that conversion is between the individual and God and do not force anyone to convert. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 08:34, 25 November 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			*:*'''Comment''' I would suggest Darwin review ]. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. ] (]) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::Then you need to find external sources that support that. Quoting from dictionaries and the Bible does not qualify. It would need to come from some reliable source commenting on this sect. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 08:46, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
			*:*:@] I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? ] ] 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	::Hi Nickidwbear. Please note that you cannot edit Misplaced Pages based upon what you "know" to be true. You must cite ] that explicitly ] your claims. <s>Evanh2008, jumping immediately to ANI was very inappropriate; don't forget that most new users have never heard of ] and our other similar policies. Before I became a regular WP editor, it would have seemed "obvious" to me that I could add information that I "knew" to be true. Let's try to educate new users before automatically assuming, after just two edits, that administrative action is necessary.</s> ] (]) 08:43, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
			*:*::@], the bottom line is that ''you don't get to question that.'' As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is '''not''' the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them ''any'' good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. ] (]) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::The editor has been around for nearly 4 years. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 08:46, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
			*:*:::I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. ] ] 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::{{ec}} Well, like I said, previous interaction with this user is what led me to come here so soon. I and others have gone over the relevant policies with him/her repeatedly over the course of more than two years. ]&nbsp;<sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 08:47, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
			*:*::::We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this ] (]) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Apologies to Evanh2008--I was commenting here while doing something else, and didn't adequately examine the history, and misread your comment. I've struck part of my comment above, and will refrain from further commenting until I can give this more attention. ] (]) 09:25, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
			*:*:The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read ]' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. ] (]) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. ] ] 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including ]) - otherwise you will be blocked. ]] 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. ] ] 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here.
			*:*::::::Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there.
			*:*::::::And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the ] area.] (]) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::I would suggest a '''topic ban''' is imposed. ]] 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::I would '''support''' a topic ban from ]. ] (]) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. ] (]) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. ]] 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? ] ] 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::::Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. ]] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::::You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. ] ] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::@] nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. ] ] 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. ] (]) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. ] ] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::::You fundementally misunderstand the scope of ] and the concept of topic area as well. ] (]) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::::Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. ] ] 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::::::I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. ] (]) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::::::::it was a collective you. ] ] 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::::::::The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. ] (]) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*:::::I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. ] (]) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:*::::::None of this is relevant. We follow sources and ]. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. ]] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I've continued to post where? ] ] 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? ] ] 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? ]] 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::@] The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have ], and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -] (]) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. ] ] 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -] (]) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? ] ] 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::@] This one. -] (]) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::@] I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. ] ] 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::@] Easiest way to defuse this is to post a '''bolded''' and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -] (]) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" ] ] 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. ]] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			* Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? ] (]) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. ] ] 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? ] (]) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. ] ] 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? ] (]) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 ] ] 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. ] (]) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. ] ] 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around ] (]) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::@] no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? ] ] 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::Because of edits like this . ] (]) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? ] ] 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? ] (]) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::::Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? ] ] 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::::We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. ] (]) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::::::I ''answered'' a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. ] ] 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::::::Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. ] (]) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::::::::I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. ] ] 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::::::::In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. ] (]) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. ] (]) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	* ] has already reverted and posted a talk page comment explaining the issue, and what needs to be done in order to address the concerns. Basically, he has already done our job here, and I suggest everyone involved just move the discussion over there. As he points out, Nick* might be completely right but it needs proper sourcing. As the edits were made in good faith, and it was reverted in good faith, we just follow ] by taking it there and closing this out. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 16:14, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	*Unfortunately, ] has refused to engage in any discussion, and has proceeded to create the exact same types of disruption at two other articles. Diffs: , , , , , , , . Also see conversations and warnings on her talk page and conversation on my talk. Add this, and the edit summaries showing a total lack of ], to the history of blocks for exactly the same behavior, and you have an editor that needs serious re-education. Sadly, I would like to see a block extended until the editor shows an understanding of the problems associated with her edits, or possibly a topic ban on articles relating to Judaism, broadly interperted to include anti-Semantic organizations such as ]. Will notify user as soon as this is saved. ] (]) 08:29, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*:Another example of lack of clue: . ] (]) 08:53, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway.] ] 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	::To accuse me of being an Anti-Semitic Nazi who needs a re-education is obnoxious, to say the least. First of all, the Nazis were National Socialists (not rightist at all). Second, I am a Messianic Jew. Thirdly, I get that your Far-Left, Anti-Messianic viewpoint can't handle what I just mentioned or that "Levitsky"s, "Kogon"s, etc. are Jewish even when they don't fit your mold. Also, you won't let me cite Nehemia Gordon as a legitimate critic of the Talmud--that's obnoxious of you.] (]) 08:55, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it.]] 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::And yet another. ] (]) 09:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			::@] I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. ] ] 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::An ancillary dialogue can be found ]. ]&nbsp;<sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 09:15, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary ], broadly construed, as in effect.]] 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::My last comment on this issue tonight is simply a request to whichever admin happens to come across this first. I ask that Nickidewbear not be indefinitely blocked at the moment, as I do believe he/she will be able to be reasoned with after a cool-down period of several days. I've dealt with Nazis before, and this ain't one. G'night, all. ]&nbsp;<sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 09:36, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::See for a further example of this editors mind-set. ```]<small>]</small> 09:40, 26 November 2012 (UTC)		::::@] yes, that's correct. ] ] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			* I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about ] in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	Although I have the greatest respect for Evan's work on the project, I disagree. Considering the long term pattern of obstructive and uncollaborative editing this editor has engaged in, I think a block that stays until he/she can show an understanding of the problem is completely appropriate. As I have to be in a real courtroom to argue real life issues in about 10 hours, I too am going to call it a night. Thanks to all the participants here. ] (]) 09:49, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			*:which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? ] ] 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			*::All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::@] You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me ''in the English Misplaced Pages?'' ] ] 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::@] Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? ] ] 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			Would recommend that Darwin ''walk away'' from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. ] (]) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	== User:Bluerim ==
			;Clarification
	Over the past few days, ] returned from about a 20 day break from Misplaced Pages and reverted changes that I made to the article (] and ) that were based on a ] on what to do (as these issues have been going on for the past few months and I've had two RFCs and Third Opinions requested but none helped because Bluerim couldn't accept what they had to say). I had also corrected some sources on the page which he reverted and has done in every revert (for which he said "Sources can be corrected" but keeps reverting them). He claims he's making corrections or improvements but he's doing the same revert, with maybe small differences if there are any. There's been a discussion on the Talk page (titled Outside comments/opinions) for about a month. Bluerim's changes and reversions are contradicting some of the things brought up. Another editor (]) reverted him for the same reason I have: the discussion post. I today added a new section to the article (which has been long overdue) and added information to the lead because of it. Bluerim reverted back to his version before Sjone's revert (although he retained the new section) and hid his reversion by only claiming that he made corrections to the lead, the new section, and added "one word" to another section. I feel that Bluerim's reversions are disruptive and are making it hard to improve the article. There's a discussion on the Talk page but he either doesn't post or he leaves short comments and doesn't answer questions or doesn't fully explain himself which can be seen in his most recent post there. This is also not the first time I've had to report this user for similar conduct. --] ] 10:57, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
			*Hello @] - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in ], to the point of eventually here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much.
	:Reviewing the talk page I'm not seeing inappropriate behavior by Bluerim. There's nothing wrong with short comments -- we actually have an essay ] encouraging them. <small>]</small> 12:24, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
			*As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ], which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that.
	::It's not so much for the short comments, it's the fact he avoided answering my posts, and his short comments don't really say much. If you see , I left comments that I would have liked to have had answers to. Instead of answering or responding, Bluerim made to the article (which is what I was referring to about hiding his other revert) and made on the Talk page which did not answer any of my questions, nor did it provide or help with anything to solve the issues. Also, did you check the reversion history of the article itself? That's really where the disruption is. --] ] 20:41, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
			*The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here.
	:::And he's the page again, claiming I'm the only one who has issues, despite the fact another editor reverted him for the same reasons I have. The biggest problem with this user is that he is very hard to work with for consensus building because he keeps reverting and resists community input (as noted by the RFCs and Third Opinions on the Talk page, where practically all of the outside editors agreed with my points but Bluerim challenged their opinion which is why we're still having these issues). This has been an ongoing issue with this user for months and it's really ridiculous. As mentioned before, I've had to report this user for similar conduct as seen which links the three previous reports prior to that one. --] ] 21:46, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			*Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on ] and ] or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan.
	::::I think we should contact an administrator about this matter, since ] can make things worse, which is why it is not tolerated. ] (] - ]) 22:46, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			*And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. ] ] 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::I've asked {{admin|Bbb23}}, an uninvolved administrator, to take a look at this situation. ] (] - ]) 22:57, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Okay. --] ] 23:15, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::Yes, edit warring is not acceptable. However, a failure to accurately read the situation is also not good. ] (]) 01:53, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	{{Outdent}}As per edit warring comment, then why did you keep reverting when you knew there was a discussion on those issues? As per other comment, that's why there are links provided. --] ] 02:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:The link JDC808 provides above as a "revert" is actually an edit. <small>]</small> 02:13, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Which one? --] ] 02:16, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::. By the way, as Bbb23 does not have enough time to review this thread, I've asked another uninvolved administrator, {{admin|PresN}}, to give his thoughts on this matter. ] (] - ]) 04:31, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::Are you sure it was that one? If you look at the last , I made a revert at 10:04 November 25th, then Bluerim reverted that at 12:01 November 26th, which is what you just linked (notice mine is +2,841 and his is -2,841). I believe NE Ent was talking about . It actually is a revert (technically a revert with an added edit). Look at the differences between and (the one I believe NE Ent was referring). They're identical reversions with the exception of in the latter, Bluerim reverted my additions to the lead (which made the lead the same as the first reversion) and he made two minor edits to the new section. And so it's clear, there are three intermediate edits between those two: , , and then . And okay about the admin. --] ] 05:11, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::If that's the case then, I apologize for my comment about the link above. ] (] - ]) 05:14, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::No problem. Just making sure everything's clear. --] ] 05:20, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::::All right, then. While we are still waiting for the administrator to respond, based on the relevant differences provided above, I think that Bluerim ]. ] (] - ]) 05:30, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	*I am not going to have time to review this thread today. So, either another admin will have to, or given that this appears to be principally about edit-warring, the report could be taken to ].--] (]) 02:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:: I "get the point" - my latest edits to the article ''do'' incorporate some suggestions. There are, however, some weaknesses with the other additions. In short, the article reads less like a piece of prose and more like a fan entry. The issue I have here is that one over-committed editor can't see the compromise, which was possibly not helped by another editor who may not have the experience to see the process. Yet another editor had no issue with my recent post on the Talk page, and stated brevity was fine. I can elaborate, but hope for some more flexibility. JD means well, but his writing does need work and he just needs to haul back a tad (a la the string of attempted complaints and comments on my Talk Page, such as "being left not choice"). Let's work together without melodrama. It can be done.
	] (]) 11:49, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:No, JDC808 is not overcommitted (I feel that this is unfounded) and the problem here is that you were edit warring while discussion was taking place, and please do not make unfounded assumptions about JDC808. Since your edits created controversy, a discussion was necessary according to the rules and common sense. Unfortunately, you also seem to have ignored good faith community concerns and ] as relevant on the talk page of the God of War characters article. As visible in ], there are discussions such as an RFC, which led to community consensus amongst uninvolved editors. I also feel that Bluerim is being a little disruptive, which according to ], is valid, fulfilling 3 out of the 6 criteria that defines disruptive editing. Also, we should consider listen to outside opinions of others who have commented on the talk page and take these into account. I would like to quote the definition of ]:
			===Proposed Community Sanctions===
	::In some cases, editors have perpetuated disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has decided that moving on to other topics would be more productive. Such behavior is disruptive to Misplaced Pages. Believing that you have a valid point does not confer upon you the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told that it is not accepted.
			I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this.
			'''Proposed''' DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to ] broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	::Do not confuse "hearing" with "agreeing with": The community's rejection of your idea is not proof that they have failed to hear you. One option to consider in these situations is to stop, listen, and consider what the other editors are telling you, see if you can see their side of the debate, and work on finding points of agreement.
			*'''Support''' -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	::Sometimes, even when editors act in good faith, their contributions may continue to be disruptive and time wasting, because they don't understand what the problem is. Although editors should be encouraged to be bold and just do things if they think they're right, sometimes a lack of competence can get in the way. If the community spends more time cleaning up editors' mistakes and educating them about policies and guidelines than it considers necessary, sanctions may have to be imposed.
			*:I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -] (]) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. ''PS'' - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. ] (]) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support topic ban and IBAN''', both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. ]] 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. Just read through the above and ''good grief''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. ] (]) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. ] (]) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
	I am still waiting for administrator input about this situation. ] (] - ]) 13:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::That's actually a fair point. -] (]) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent ] impulse. ] (]) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::@] You have been misjudging me - It was , actually, if it's worth anything. ] ] 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the ] area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::@] OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). ] ] 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::If they weren't before they are now... ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Ok, to be clear, I '''oppose''' a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. ] (]) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I agree. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:@] I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. ] ] 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. ] (]) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::@] And those were the only ones, and I immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to . You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. ] ] 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::@] I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? ] ] 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. ] (]) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::@] I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽‍♂️ ] ] 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? ] (]) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::@] Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? ] ] 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. ] (]) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::@] There was not any "lie", please stop ]. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". ] ] 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. ] (]) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::Darwin has a long history of editing in ] albeit generally less controversially. . ] (]) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::@] That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. ] ] 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::::::::DarwIn ] covers gender ''and'' sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. ] (]) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::::::::::@] Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. ] ] 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' per Bushranger. ] ] 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose'''. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. ] (]) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose''' per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. ] ] 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::{{Ping|Pppery}} days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. ] (]) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. ] (]) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:@] What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? ] ] 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::{{replyto|DarwIn}} Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times ], ], ], ], ], ]. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. ] (]) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like ]. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here.] ] 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. ] (]) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. ] ] 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::], I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup>
			*:::::::{{Ping|Liz}} Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that.] ] 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::::::{{reply|DarwIn}} you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. ] (]) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::::For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. ] (]) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:* '''Support''' - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it.
			:]] 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:* '''Oppose''' - Per GoodDay and Springee. ] (]) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> <small>(he/him; ])</small></span> 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.] (]) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of ] may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer ]. ] (]) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			* <s>'''Support''' TBAN/IBAN</s> '''Weak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN''' - ] suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate ] behavior. ] (]) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
	:: You mean well, and I applaud your efforts for peace, but you did err in reverting back to some inferior material. JD means well but many of his edits have needed tweaking. I have compromised on several points, but look for the same in him. ] (]) 00:40, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			::This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.] (]) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::As per "inferior material," please see my most recent post(s) at the Talk page. --] ] 02:33, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. ] (]) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--] (]) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. ] (]) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::"A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. ]] 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. ] (]) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. ]] 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::OK boomer. ] (]) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. ]] 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.] (]) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP ] - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. ] (]) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. ] (]) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::{{ec}} NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of ], and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -] (]) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN.
			:::sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. ] (]) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. ] (]) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour ''there would be no mention of WP:NPA''. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture ''continues'' to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. ] (]) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:* '''Oppose''' as unnecessary given the commitments already given. ]] 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{hat|1=Let's not. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). <small>Edited to include edit conflict comment. ] (]) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC)</small>}}
			::::I am assuming you haven't spent much time in places ] where religious belief and persons of faith are not infrequently and quite openly subject to ridicule. Racism is a subject upon which society has happily come to more or less full agreement. Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other. I shall refrain from further comment out of deference to WP:FORUM. -] (]) 21:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Fringe ideas get ridiculed at FTN regardless of whether or not they are religious... That so many fringe views are also religious is more a result of the supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual being inherently fringe than any problem with FTN. Religion which is rational and explainable isn't religion any more after all. ] (]) 21:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Thank you for affirming my point. -] (]) 21:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Your point was that "Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other." Right? Like for example the ] or is that not the side you were thinking of? ] (]) 22:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::No. I was thinking of people who regularly insult and ridicule religious belief and those who hold to it. Something which based on your comment, does not seem to be a source of concern to you. That said, this discussion is veering deep into WP:FORUM territory and I am going to move on. Have a good day. -] (]) 22:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::I don't think I've ever seen any of those people suggest that trans people are demons, or did you mean demonize in a way other than literally saying that the other side is demonic/satan's minions? Becuase that would be highly ironic... ] (]) 22:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::I am reaching the uncomfortable conclusion that you are attempting to be deliberately offensive. And for the record, you are succeeding. Good day. -] (]) 22:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::You weren't aware that a cornerstone of the gender controversy was religious conservatives resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other? Because that is well documented in reliable sources. I don't think you're the one who is supposed to be offended here, you're the one saying what appear to be extremely offensive things and are being asked to clarify what you meant. ] (]) 22:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::{{ec}} I think a significant point here is that while we may tolerate some degree of forumish and offensive comment about gender or race or religions from editors when they are restricted to largely abstract comment or even when they reference other editors, it's far more of a problem when the editors make offensive accusations about living persons especially when these are completely unrelated to any discussion about how to cover something (noting that the editor continued to make the comment even after they had noted how the English wikipedia treats issues). So for example, if someone says a specific religious figure is delusion or lying in relation to how we treat their testimony that might barely be acceptable. When someone just comes out and says it repeatedly for no reason, that's far more of a problem. Especially if the figure is someone barely notable and not notable (as was the case here for one of the individuals each). ] (]) 22:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{hab}}
			{{hat|1=This ''is'' affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			*'''Comment''' This is definitely not the ideal place to discuss the subject since the whole problem originated with pt.wiki, but since the editor came here asking for help (for the right reasons or not), I will draw attention to the case of the admin accused of transphobia. This is not the first time that DarwIn has been singled out due to his comments on the subject (he has already given several examples of this here), but there is an where the editor has already been criticized for making such comments. There, they were also celebrating Skyshifter's ban (DarwIn commented something like "as a man he was 100%, after transitioning he became unbearable" to refer to her). As much as they try not to link the group to the project, to use this chat you need to associate your Misplaced Pages credentials, so I am concerned that pt.wiki admins could be seen spreading speeches against minorities in an official space of the project, since Misplaced Pages is the target of attacks for investing in equity and diversity. In addition to this comment, the admin was also extremely rude and crude towards a ].
			:Again, this is not the ideal place to comment on these issues, but I suggest that the case be submitted to Wikimedia if any intervention or something more incisive is necessary. The local community can accuse me of anything for writing these words, but I am concerned about the escalation of editorial harassment within that space.
	::: In other words, as has been said before, this is a content dispute and belongs in discussion on the article talkpage or in ] processes? (]''']''']) 00:45, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::I've tried. I've tried requesting opinions from outside editors. --] ] 02:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*Okay, I've briefly looked at the history of the article. The only issue that would call for administrator intervention is edit-warring. As I see it, both Blue Rim and JDC808 have been edit-warring. However, the last edit to the article by Sjones (who has not been edit-warring) was over a day ago, so at least the edit-warring has calmed down for the moment. If I had looked at this earlier, I would have either blocked both Blue Rim and JDC808 or I would have locked the article. Hopefully, all of those things can be avoided if the involved editors behave and restrict their dispute (amicably) to the talk page. If they don't, then sanctions may be appropriate. And be careful about declaring consensus. I've too often seen one of the disputants say "Consensus has been reached" and then proceed to implement the alleged consensus. Best to have a clear consensus and an ininvolved editor implement it. As BWilkins said, there are dispute resolution mechanisms for resolving seemingly intractable content disputes. I'll leave this topic open for a bit in case anyone wants to say anything further.--] (]) 01:01, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::I'm not going to say I wasn't wrong when I made my reverts. To get to the point, the most problematic thing is that Bluerim does not understand consensus. This has been a big and ongoing issue with him. That's probably the root of this entire issue. I'm not just saying this because I think it's true, other uninvolved editors have pointed this out to him. As Sjones made aware, there's been discussions on the Talk page where I've requested RFCs and Third Opinions. Practically all uninvolved editors were in agreeance with my points (which is about 5 or 6 uninvolved editors), but Bluerim challenged their opinion (even questioned their writing abilities at one point) and to put it bluntly, he pretty much said they're wrong. --] ] 02:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::: Then you're well into ] territory. (]''']''']) 15:07, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			:PS: The editor was mocking this discussion in the Telegram group while I was writing this. ] (]) 01:57, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	== Disruptive editor ] ==
			::Came back after a month with no edits for this? It's quite clear Jardel is taking something personal with DarwIn here. Or he doesn't have anything to do at the moment. And he didn't have such great writing and narrative in his mother tongue, now is writing perfect, well written English. That gets stranger considering he's partially blocked in ptwiki for some beefing with other editors (] in portuguese)... Quite strange, to say the least. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::And yes, by "quite strange" I am talking about maybe ]. Nobody comes after a month without edits (that was preeceded by some other months before some 5-ish edits), to make an "accusation" based on unfounded arguments, especially after being blocked precisely for beefing and attacking other members of the community in his homewiki. Such a hypocrisy, a user banned for beefing accusating another user of attacks and using the word "transphobia" so vaguely. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::As I expected, the group participants started making accusations against me (that's why Eduardo G. appeared in this discussion) and wanted to insinuate that Skyshifter is writing this text, perhaps wanting to provoke some kind of retaliation later. First, I appreciate the compliments on my writing, which was 100% done by Google Translate; I think Google's engineering is to be congratulated. Second, I'm only here on this page because I noticed the links to this discussion in the Telegram group itself and decided to contribute with what I've been reading for a long time with great disgust. I didn't need to bring much, Darwin himself made a point of making abject comments in this discussion, but if you want, I can bring some screenshots of what they were talking about in the group. Third, I did go 1 month without editing here because my focus is not on en.wiki but on pt.wiki, where I make regular edits. I find it strange that you entered this discussion without refuting any of the arguments above, thinking that bringing up my tarnished "reputation" changes everything that was written by me or in the group. I believe it must be embarrassing to participate in a group where they are celebrating the sanctions that Skyshifter will suffer (thinking that place is a "private club") while at the same time you from the "public side" to the same editor, simulating virtue. In any case, my goal here is only to reinforce that there is indeed materiality in what Skyshifter said with more evidence and once again I recommend that the discussion be evaluated by the Wikimedia team knowing that attitudes that demonstrate prejudice against minorities go against the project's investments in equity, diversity and equality. ] (]) 03:52, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I will not pursue any retaliation. I'm just stating what I know of this case, and I even supported Sky when the edits were being made. People are celebrating because all of this discussion was brought to even another wiki by her. But I understand you might've written this text, and will not take the subject further. If anybody needs anything, please read the message below. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::So, I don't disagree with your argument about the sanctions she's passing on the other project, unfortunately. As for "not pursue any retaliation", I don't think that's what you mean by the phrase "4 successful DBs in a row is not for everyone." directed at me. ] (]) 04:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::@] You're wrong, twice. First, it wasn't me saying that. It was NCC-1701, and my user in TG is Edu. And at no point did I agree with NCC's messages. And secondly, the "four DBs in a row" wasn't in anyway directed at you. It was directed to Bageense, who opened 4 block discussions in the last 2 or 3 days and all of them were successfull. You are distorting the messages to condone your erroneous narrative. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Well, if I am "distorting messages" to "tolerate" my narrative, anyone who wants to evaluate can join the group and read the messages posted there or see the pt.wiki discussion against the Projeto Mais Teoria da História na Wiki and talk to its ] to see what their opinion is on the matter. I may not be a perfect person, but what I see with great displeasure (coming from those who are "in charge of the gears") is not positive for the project. ] (]) 04:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Joining the group the community would then have no doubts about your intents and distortion of facts. You didn't deny the two things I said above — you know I'm right, you can't bend the facts this much. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			'''As a ptwiki user''' that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage ()/], thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the ] <small>(in portuguese)</small>. The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it.
	I have a dicussion with ] and .
			This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone.
	] calls for "support" of ] .
			I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my ] (). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	], in spanish, make a personal attack over me, and say that he do not wants to talk by reason of language limitation . Then ] reverts all my editions (whatever article). I try to talk with he, here, but he not say nothing, and whatever article he say in diff ''''statu quo ante'''' and only reverts my editions. He reverts me in many articles:
			JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community . And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. ] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	*
			:It is pretty clear thay the intents of Jardel here are disruptive. Your comment hopefully leaves no doubt to the community. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:53, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*
			:As I said above, I am not a perfect person. I may have used foul language to address some editors in a moment of anger, but I felt vulnerable and hurt by editors I held in high regard, and I apologize for what I wrote in the past. Likewise, I do not think it is right that a social channel that is reported as "linked to Misplaced Pages" is being used as a bar where people can say whatever they want, especially when it comes to prejudiced comments against minorities. At no time did I label all of them, only one of them demonstrated that she was doing so. If I happen to receive any sanction for this discussion, and knowing that bringing issues from pt.wiki here is not ideal, I will receive it for doing the right thing, because I want something to change for the better in a project that I have dedicated so much time to contributing to. I may be prevented from editing on Misplaced Pages, but if what I bring here helps to change something, I will be happy. ] (]) 05:01, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*
			{{hab}}
	*
			:] - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? ]&nbsp;] 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*
			::I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. ] (]) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*
			::@] The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, . Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. ] (]) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*
			:::I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. ] (]) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*
			*'''Supporting both IBAN and TBAN'''. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--] ] 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*
			*Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. ] (]) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.] (]) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. ] (]) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.] (]) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain.
			:::::concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.] (]) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.] (]) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. ] (]) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Children cannot consent, their parents can. ]&nbsp;]<sup>]</sup> 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--] (]) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? ] (]) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--] (]) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. ] (]) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support TBAN''', no comment on IBAN. . ]&nbsp;]<sup>]</sup> 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- ] - <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose any sanctions''' I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate ] on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. ] (]) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support TBAN''', indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this ] type editing, whether it is attempting to ] or simply ] discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. ] (]) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. ] (]) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' ''Skyshifter'', if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to descelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. ''']]''' 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite () to boot. ] (]) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY.
			:<br>
			:Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am.
			:<br>
			:Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages.
			:<br>
			:'''I support''' the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community.
			:<br>
			:'''I oppose''' with the IP-ban because if anything this '''SHOULD’VE''' ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing.
			:<br> ] (]) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. ] (]) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents.
			:::NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent.
			:::Cheers, <br> ] (]) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::This reply reminded me of the essay ]. ] (]) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. ] (]) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. ] (]) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at ] accusing me of coming to their talk page to "{{tq|further troll me with this nonsense warning}}". '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --] (]) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== ] taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge. ===
	--] (]) 16:40, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
			{{hat|1=100% affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{atop|result=This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this ]s on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			On the 29th of December, ] started an AN/I based on a claim that ], a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination . AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate.
			She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn.
	*Disruptive editor is Santos30. Santos30 being carried out in several articles and editions massive edit wars to defend a non-neutral POVwarrior, editions which was blocked in Spanish Misplaced Pages. Now move your warrior Pov this by cross-wiki wikipedia. I request for measures against Santos30 for these actions disruptive and undermine the ''statu quo ante'' and viewpoint neutral. I'm sorry my English is not good, because I use a translator. ] (]) 23:02, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
	**No. This is totally false and another personal attack.--] (]) 06:10, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	***The logs tell us that you have a SUL account and that as {{user|Santos30|es}} you are indeed blocked indefinitely, for abuse of multiple accounts where the master account is {{user|Domenico|es}}, on the Spanish Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 09:46, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::*My mistake, , I was a retired User and I not inform of changes in my nick User. But what ] say is false and is another personal attack, never I was blocked for " massive edit wars" or "POV warrior". ] came here to make personal attacks and reverts me (User:Escarlati not talk and not give bibliography) as you can see in the diffs. ] say that he can not talk in english, but quickly he came here to try to silence me with administrative actions similar as censure in Misplaced Pages spanish ().
	:::: If User:Escarlati does not want to talk or give bibliography, then he should not reverts me here in wikipedia english ( anything or whatever says or do in wikipedia español, wrong or right ). I do not want an administrative action for no user, I want to be free to make editions or .--] (]) 11:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::User Santos30 is engaging in a reversion-war and trying to impose his point of view. He just placed a non-neutrality template in the article on the Crown of Aragón which should be removed because he is the only one claiming that it is not neutral. --] (]) 11:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::: False. The imposed point of view is in the last edition of User:Escarlati . He delete my bibliography and not gives any other reference. Template is placed 24 hours after I explain in the talk my reason of the template . Nobody answer the talk. No bibliography to clarify in the article. --] (]) 12:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::OK, after this talk User:Eric Naval answer . I keep waiting for User:Escarlati --] (]) 13:22, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::Santos30, you were given many sources at Spanish wikipedia and then here at English wikipedia. All users at Spanish wikipedia agreed to use the Cross of Burgundy for the Spanish Empire and its colonies. --] (]) 11:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log.
	Well, I had hopes that Santos30 was a reasonable editor. But his last edits and POV-pushing in talk pages have exhausted my patience. Santos30 is not here to write an encyclopedia, he is here to glorify Castile and remove any mentions to the Cross of Burgundy. He keeps modifying related articles to support his POV, which makes it even more difficult to detect the problems. He is a pseudohistoric troll, and he needs to be blocked and reverted. --] (]) 14:04, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:You should see first for articles that must to be clarified. Why you not look for the missing bibliography and stop your personal attacks and stop looking for my punishment?. Im not here to "glorify Castile" and "remove any mentions to the Cross of Burgundy". Im here understand and share my knowledge of Latin American independence. But I see those articles of colonial viceroyalty with mistaken or confused or POV information and I try to clarify.--] (]) 15:58, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage ( and in ]), ] over other users and using ] and ] to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it ], with all the proofs). The ] taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever.
	::We achieved some understanding in ] and ]. Probably because there are sources that explicitly cite exact dates with meridian clarity. Which means that you can't push your preferred dates. But as soon as there is some ambiguity, or a way to twist sources into saying things that they don't say, we get lockdowns, edit warring and tendentious picking and interpretation of sources. I am not willing to spend hours and hours collecting sources and quotes, only to have you cherrypick a few sources that don't really support your changes, followed by a return to your original position and edit-warring to restore bad sources and remove good ones.
			Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was '''personal''' and for '''revenge'''. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under ], here called ] I think, and ]/], and in the AN/I above she's commiting ], repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment.
	::Some examples:
	::* was specially annoying because it removed a couple of hours of solid work for no good reason.
			<span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	::* introduced wholly incorrect flag and coat. He already edit-warred the similar changes in Spanish wikipedia as his alter ego Domenico . Needless to say, the changes didn't stick. In the Spanish wikipedia he was less sophisticated and it's easier to see that one of his main motivations is the glorification of Castile (the other one is his hate towards the ] flag)
			:{{replyto|Eduardo_Gottert}} You need to provide evidence when opening an ANI thread, not on request. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	::* . He replaces 2 contemporary books with a 1835 biased political pamphlet. In the talk page he refuses to acknowledge the problems with the source. He had already editwarred over those dates with an IP, causing the protection of the article. In a last attempt to compromise, I started a RfC, I expect a tsunami of wikilawyering over it. He demands an arbitrarily high sourcing standard for the date he doesn't like, refuses to compromise, refuses to acknowledge the flagrant logic flaws in his position, refuses to acknowledge all the sources that give a different date, etc. He neglected to mention that his attempts to put the same date in the Spanish wikidia were all reverted and that he failed to provide any source that supported his position, and that he didn't address any of the obvious flaws with that position.
			::'@] The evidences are above. I said if you need any '''further''' evidence, you may ask. All of the necessary evidence are on the request. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Where's the evidence? What we know is that DarwIn came here despite little involvement and made a highly offensive statement that can reasonably be characterised as transphobic. While I don't feel Sky Shifter should have described it so, better to let others decide, it was entirely reasonable for Sky Shifter to call for action against DarwIn for it. What is your evidence that they did it for revenge instead of for the fact that after a disagreement with DarwIn in a different wiki, DarwIn suddenly appeared in this wiki, one they themselves agree they barely edit, to make a highly offensive statement that Sky Shifter reasonably felt was transphobic. After doing so, they then appeared on ANI to make similar highly offensive statements were they made offensive accusations against living based on their own opinion. ] (]) 06:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Honestly, the argument is pretty clear above. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::If you agree you're wrong then please withdraw this ANI. ] (]) 06:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I did not agree in any place that I am wrong. I just stated that the evidence is pretty clear above, with all the block discussions and diffs needed for understanding the problem. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Your statement was very unclear. You said "the argument" which I interpreted to mean my argument. If you're still claiming your argument is clear, then please explain how it can be when part of your argument is it was unfair for Sky Shifter to go around saying "transphobia" when many of us agree that even if it was unnecessary, it was not unsupported given the comments DarwIn was making do seem to be transphobic. ] (]) 06:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::As we were talking about my evidence, I think saying "the argument" clearly refer to me. And as to the reason for the opening of this ANI, it's because the revenge seeking of Skyshifter. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::I wouldn't say it doesn't considering as I said, one of the reasons your argument was flawed, but you didn't address that in any way. Nothing you've said above or since has explained why you're claiming Sky Shifter using the word "transphobic" is evidence for "revenge" when it's a reasonable characterisation of what DarwIn said. ] (]) 06:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::{{ec}} I would add it's very unclear what you thinking you're adding that wasn't already considered above. In the above thread a 1 way iban on DarwIn seems to be getting serious consideration. A two way iban seems to have been rejected based on the assessment that whatever the wrongs with Sky Shifter's approach, it wasn't serious enough to warrant an iban. The fact that Sky Shifter was in a dispute with DarwIn on other wikis, and DarwIn was involved in their blocked is likewise not a secret, part of it was stated by Sky Shifter when opening the thread and the rest was stated by DarwIn. The sock allegation likewise. So what do you think you're adding to the discussion that wasn't already considered and seemingly rejected by the community above? ] (]) 06:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:It is time for a ]. You already said all of that above. You seem to have been canvassed here from a discussion outside of this wiki. Go back there and let them know cross wiki harassment will get you blocked here. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I added more evidence and context. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::You simply cast aspersions as part of a cross wiki harassment campaign against someone over transgender related issues. You are not here to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 06:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Your statement doesn't even make sense. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::We can add ] to the reasons you are blocked then. ] (]) 06:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Am I? And where am I in violation of ]? <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I used plain English and you said you couldn't comprehend it. ] (]) 06:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:I thought it was pretty well determined in that prior ANI thread that DarwIn's edits and statements absolutely were transphobic and bigoted. ]]<sup>]</sup> 06:07, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	::* Changes ] to push back the usage of the flag a few centuries and claim that it only had military usages. When I tried to fix it he tried to restore his POV with "clarifications". In Spanish wikipedia he removed historical references because they made clear that his POV was incorrect, this change stuck during months.
			::The reason for the AN/I opens is still the same, revenge. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*I've read many of the posts on the Portuguese wiki, and it is pretty clear that the Skyshifter's complaint above is a deliberate expansion of drama from there. The Portugese wiki is not Uganda, people do not get banned there for being Trans, and former admins don't get banned without causing a lot of disruption. It is clear these two users really strongly dislike each other and need to stop interacting in any way.--] (]) 06:59, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:People obviously doesn't get banned for being trans. She was sysop there, commited some errors, but stayed there even after 5 months of being on estrogen. And the community knew it. What caused her block there was calling the project a sewage and then outbreaking and attacking other users. I suggest they get a two-way IBAN, at least, not the one-way as proposed on the other AN/I. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			:I would add that unless I'm missing something, the block discussion on the Portugese Misplaced Pages seems to have been started about 30 minutes before the ANI thread . It has no contributions by DarwIn . It is theoretically possible I guess it somehow factored into the motivation of Skyshifter opening the ANI thread, but this seems extremely unlikely. There's a good chance Skyshifter wasn't even aware of it when opening the thread. In other words, there's no reason to think Skyshifter was even aware they were likely going to be permanently blocked from pt at the time of opening the thread although they did say they weren't going to return. ] (]) 07:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	::* Repeated attempts to remove the historical relevance of the Cross of Burgundy in ]. Now he has returned to his original position using a compilation of sources that don't really support his position, in ]. Of course, he ignores the sources that directly and clearly contradict his position, which were given to him months ago.
			::She opened an NI, ptwiki equivalent of AN/I against DarwIn with crazy arguments. You can see it ]. It was prompty closed, and she was very well aware of the consequences she would face, and of the opening of the block discussion, and clearly opened the AN/I because of that reason. The block discussion started at 1130 UTC, and the AN/I was posted at 1300, at a time that Skyshifter had already taken notice of the discussion, as you can see . <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*This is ''very blatantly'' a tit-for-tat. As mentioned above there is the distinct smell of fishiness about it, and {{tqq|as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log}} - yes, the editor who has ''three FAs'' on en.wiki "came to this project" to do this. Suggest this be promptly closed as I hear a ] inbound. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	::* ] was given an incorrect flag in order to remove any mention to the Cross of Burgundy. Another manipulation that went unnoticed for months.
			*:I am not saying she isn't an avid used of English wiki. I just stated that she took ptwiki matters here for revenge and self-fullfillment. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::If you aren't asking for any sanctions against Skyshifter, then why did you open this sub-section, just to sling some mud at her? Give it a rest already, you're just creating more drama than is necessary.]] 08:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I think that the background of this dispute is very relevant. Obviously, neither Skyshifter or Darwin should face any repercussions here for behaviour on pt.wiki, but it isn't possible to understand what is happening here without discussing what happened there. For me, having read what happened over there is the main reason I wouldn't yet TBAN Darwin, and would call for a two-way rather than one way interaction ban.--] (]) 08:50, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	::Santos30 started in ], when I tried to fix his POV pushing it propagated to ], ], ] and ], and now it's propagated to ]. It also affects the flags and coats of arms in ], ] and several articles in ].
			{{hab}}
			== ] reported by ] ==
	::Santos30 opened this thread because his latest wave of tendentiously-sourced POV-pushing was reverted. Again. He already tried to make many of these changes in the Spanish wikipedia, where he failed to convince anyone and refused to acknowledge an expert opinion that he asked for himself. He doesn't want to be blocked for edit-warring for WP:3RR, so he comes to ANI to cry foul. I have a small hope that a good ] happens here. --] (]) 18:10, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			{{atop|result=John40332 has been blocked sitewide. ] (]) 01:33, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	*] says another time in my discussion that he does not want to talk about article.--] (]) 04:13, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:*False: I say that I don't speak english and I explained he all in spanish wikipedia before. ] (]) 17:21, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::*However your fingers are speaking in english. And suppose you are the expert, your in spanish was poor or null, without references, not one citation, no book. Nothing. Enric Naval cannot muzzle Wiki-enlish with omissions, WP:NPOV and mistakes decided by Wiki-español. And you Escarlati cannot came here to be a gunman of "status quo".--] (]) 18:07, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			{{moved from|]|2=] (]) 14:12, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	*]. This user follow my editions 28 and 29 november ] and I believe that reversals are not explained. I want to ask if he is administrator, or what is the reason of their behavior, because I explain my editions:
	:*
	:* ,
	:*
	:* .
	--] (]) 05:57, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			{{vandal|John40332}} &ndash; On {{No redirect|:Psycho (1960 film)}} ({{diff|Psycho (1960 film)|1266578685|1265765039|diff}}): account is being used only for promotional purposes; account is evidently a spambot or a compromised account. User's recent edits have been dedicated almost invariably to inserting links in classical music-related articles to an obscure sheet music site. Behavior appeared to be ] and ]. Personal attempts to curb this behavior or reach a compromise were rejected by user. ] resulted in ], despite three other editors informing user that their edits appeared to be spam or some kind of advocacy. ] (]) 08:50, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Edit warring at ] ==
			:Not a bot and not spamming, you just keep ] me repeatedly, I cited sources to the publisher of the books in question. You appear to suffer from ] and act like I need your consent to edit the articles you feel that belong to you. You also know I'm not a compromised account, you spam ] on your reverts but you're mostly bullying other editors into submission.
			:You've been asked to stop disrupting editing https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:CurryTime7-24#January_2025 , and continue to harass any edits that touch "your" articles.
			:You also keep saying I add citation to obscure music sites, just because you don't know something doesn't make it obscure. Additionally, you are the only person raising this as an issue because you're extremely controlling of the articles, you don't own Misplaced Pages and hopefully some other editor or admin can remind you of that. ] (]) 09:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Are you claiming that SheetMusicX is a reliable source for these articles? If so then someone (it may be me but I don't guarantee it) should take it to ]. I note that several editors have queried this, not just CurryTime7-24. John40332 is clearly not a spambot or compromised account, so please avoid over-egging the pudding. ] (]) 18:19, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::It is reliable and listed with other , it's the homepage of the Canadian music publishing house Edition Zeza, their books are part of the , shows their books in libraries around the world etc, I shouldn't even have to dig this far because 1 editor decided he ] Misplaced Pages. The links I had included provided relevant information about the articles I was editing (orchestration, dates, duration etc). Cited information from a publisher of said work, which is exactly what ] suggests doing. ] (]) 18:41, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The editor's history does seem suspicious. From 2014 to 2023 they made a total of 24 edits to article space, almost all of which were to ] and ]. Then after more than a year of no edits, in the last 5 weeks they have made 38 edits to article space, of which all except three added a reference to sheetmusicx.com. This is a commercial site that sells sheet music. As far as I can see, every reference added was a link to a page that sells a particular piece of sheet music. This certainly seems like ]. ] (]) 19:00, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::So is the problem that I'm actively contributing now, or that the cited sources aren't good enough? You guys are grasping at straws at this point.] added links to commercial sites , such as to Fidelio Music (to which he appears to be an affiliate) and yet no one raises a flag. Even when I added a source without removing his, he removed mine to keep only his link to Fidelio Music. ] (]) 19:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::There is no "you guys" here. You have exactly the same status, as a volunteer editor, as I do. I have no idea who CurryTime7-24 is, or whether that editor is an affiliate. I just know about reliable sources and that we should not be linking to ''any'' commercial site, except possibly to the original publisher of a work. ] (]) 19:38, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			*] has compiled a page, ] of edits with links to this website. This list was not created by CurryTime7-24 but by a bot looking for instances of conflict-of-interests. All of the problems you are concerned about, John40332, would not exist if you would just stop posting links to this website. If you would agree to stop referring to sheetmusicx.com, you wouldn't be "hounded" or be defending yourself and we could close this complaint. Can you agree to that editing restriction? And, if you can't, then why are you insisting on linking to this particular website? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Because it's a valid source according to:
			*:] - "Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources"
			*:] - The publisher of the work (and not only the first ever publisher, any reputable publisher of a work)
			*:] - "Published means, for Misplaced Pages's purposes, any source that was made available to the public in some form."
			Interestingly, "someone" (and I'm not saying it's CurryTime7-24) came to my talk page yesterday to write , I can only think of 1 person who is hounding me this much though, but that doesn't seem to be taken seriously. ] (]) 07:29, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:That's not "interesting", that's despicable; as is your insinuation. As for sheetmusicx as as source: for what? That they published some work? Why is that noteworthy? -- ] (]) 08:00, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::As a source for information about the work. Yes it's despicable, and as I said, no one takes it seriously, I'm not insinuating anything, admins can look into the IP themselves. ] (]) 08:10, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::So, you would prefer that this dispute continue on, which could lead to sanctions for you, rather than simply stop using this website as a reference? To me, when I see that kind of behavior, it's typically a sign of a paid editor. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::There's no dispute, it's a reliable source and ] makes a fuss about it because of his ] syndrome and potential ] with his affiliation with Fidelio Music.
			::::Why are you against a source that complies with ] ? ] (]) 09:35, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Because your use of that source is pretty clearly intended as promotional. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:27, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It's hard to understand how you can say "there's no dispute" when there is quite obviously a dispute; six editors in this thread alone have questioned your use of that source. You have invoked ] to claim that the website is an acceptable source, but I'm not sure you have understood what that guideline says about commercial sites; they are allowed as references '''only''' to verify simple facts such as titles and running times. You have not used sheetmusicx.com for such purposes; you have used it to tell the reader where they can purchase sheet music (], ], ], ], ], etc). ] (]) 01:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I used it to add relevant information that didn't exist on Misplaced Pages.
			::::::When I added "Psycho A Narrative for String Orchestra" that exists since 1968 and never mentioned on Misplaced Pages, but CurryTime decided to harass me there too.
			::::::When I added the orchestration for Tambourin Chinois , which CurryTime decided to remove too.
			::::::I used information by the publisher to confirm facts, as per ], if commercial sources are not allowed to verify contributions, then why is everyone so quiet about CurryTime's affiliation to Fidelio Music links ? So far these comments are a good example of ], first I was accused of spamming, then of being a bot, then that my account was compromised, then that the source used wasn't reliable, if you run out of ideas try my religion or ethnicity. ] (]) 08:50, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Yes, you added the bit about Psycho - which included the link ''with the same phrasing as on the other edits'' where it was obvious "buy this music here". Your edits are either promotional or are indistinguishable from being promotional. That is why they are being removed. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You have repeatedly said that CurryTime7-24 is an affiliate of Fidelio. Can you show us your evidence of that? ] (]) 18:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Here he removed my source to add Fidelio Music
			::::::Here again to make sure only Fidelio Music exists
			::::::And obviously here, deleting what I added to include Fidelio Music exclusively
			::::::Here he completely deleted everything I added about the piece as part of his ] ] (]) 19:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::That may be evidence of something, good or bad, but it's certainly not evidence that that editor is an affiliate. But, anyway, the action that hould have been taken a few days ago has now been taken, so we can stop talking now. ] (]) 20:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It would be nice if an admin would compare the IP address 181.215.89.116 that told me to on my Talk Page, to existing users, now that would be fun to find out who is so against my edits, because so far the only action was a suspension. ] (]) 08:58, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::In any case the most obvious guess is: some unrelated troll who saw your name on this board. —] (]) 22:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			It appears that there is consensus here and at ] against linking to Sheet Music X. Is it possible for an admin to propose a resolution here? —] (]) 17:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:The only consensus is your ] syndrome, the sources linked are reliable and fit for purpose. People have questioned my use of the source, not the reliability of it.
	There is an edit war in progress at ] regarding the wording of the opening sentence of the article. An IP editor made a , which was reverted twice; the material was subsequently by a logged-in editor. I would like to ask an uninvolved administrator to review the matter. Thanks. — ]] 05:14, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:You created this complaint stating that I'm a spammer, a bot or a compromised account, has that consensus been reached too ? ] (]) 18:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:The IP editor replaced a citation from a historical encyclopedia article published by a university with a statement about a reality TV series . ] (]) 05:27, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			::No, {{u|John40332}}, you are wrong about the lack of consensus, and there is ''clear'' consensus against you linking to that commercial sheet music sales site. So, either you agree to stop doing so, or you get subjected to formal sanctions. Which will it be? ] (]) 18:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::So CurryTime can throw random accusations until something sticks? ] (]) 18:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::OK, then. {{u|John40332}} is indefinitely blocked from article space. The editor is free to make well-referenced, formal ] on article talk pages. The editor is warned that continuing to attempt to add links to Sheet Music X may lead to a sitewide block. The editor is advised to read the ]. ] (]) 19:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I made well referenced edits directly from a reputable publisher. Enjoy the power trip. ] (]) 19:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Please refrain from ] which violate policy. ] (]) 19:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Let me quote Misplaced Pages's page for Power Trip "(...) someone in a position of greater power uses that power unjustifiably against a lower-ranking person, typically just for display of dominance.", since you showed up just to block me when I haven't even edited anything else until this incident was cleared. I didn't spam, I'm not a bot, my account isn't compromised, I referenced a reputable publisher that due to CurryTime's ] and ] made him start this issue. ] (]) 19:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Put that shovel down before you are indef blocked completely. '''increase indef block to all namespaces''' for battleground mentality. ] (]) 19:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{od}}The block is now sitewide. ] (]) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	It appears as though 'the historical encyclopedia article published by a university' confirms what the IP address is trying to change the article to say: that Mormons still practice Polygamy. http://www.uen.org/utah_history_encyclopedia/p/POLYGAMY.html The original link does not lead directly to this page. A reader has to click through to find the cited entry. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 05:40, 26 November 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			== User:Historian5328 ==
	:Per the reference, it depends on your definition of "Mormon". If you mean a member of ], then no, they have not practiced polygamy for over 100 years. If you mean a fundamentalist group, then yes, some of those do still practice it. The wording was changed, but the original reference was removed. There was no reason to remove a reliable source citation and replace it with "as witnessed in the popular reality television show '']''". ] (]) 16:22, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|Historian5328}}
			I have been dealing with persistent additions of unreferenced numbers to ], ], etc for some time. Rolling them back - they're never supported by sources that validate the data, or the sources are distorted.
			In the last couple of days a new user, ] has also started showing this behaviour. But in this edit he's entering fantasy territory, saying the ] are equipped with the ], which has never been exported beyond the ]. I would request that any interested administrator consider this account for blocking. Kind regards and Happy New Year, ] ] 21:37, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
	::As I read the above-linked Utah History Encyclopedia page, it says that (1) some plurally married husbands and wives, originally married before 1904, continued to live together until the 1950s; and (2) various fundamentalist groups have continued to practise polygamy, breaking with and excommunicated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the church commonly known as the "Mormon" or "LDS" Church). I don't see anything in this source which would suggest that polygamy continues today amongst members in good standing of the LDS Church. Amongst "fundamentalist groups", yes, but as 72Dino pointed out, these are not part of the LDS Church — the latter strongly disassociates itself from them and their members. — ]] 18:20, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Editor clearly has some serious ] issues, given this ] stuff, and using...let's say ''non-reliable sources'' elsewhere, without responding to any of the notices on their talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace so they can come here and explain themselves. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:05, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Just noting that the editor's username is ], not ] and they were informed of this discussion. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::In the same regard, I would kindly request that any interested administrators review ], who has been warned over and over and over again about adding unsourced and completely made up material (Somali Navy for example, consisting of 3,500 personnel..) ] ] 03:51, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I see you corrected their username in this report after I mentioned the mistake. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:19, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Liz, the original vandal and very problematic editor, who should be blocked immediately, was YZ357980. With all due regard to Historian5328, they display very similar behaviour, which immediately created a warning flag in my mind. ] ] 21:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I’m relatively new to Misplaced Pages editing and only recently discovered that there is even a talk page. Regarding the active personnel for the Somali Armed Forces, I listed approx 20,000–30,000 (2024) and included a citation, which I believe does not warrant being blocked. I’m a beginner in Misplaced Pages editing, have no malicious intent, and do not believe I should be blocked. Moreover, I read from a Somalia media source that the Somali government had acquired A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft, believing the source to be authentic up until I discovered I was blocked. This was a mistake on my part, as I am new and inexperienced (2 days.) The individual who requested me to blocked must have had bad experiences which I’m not responsible for. I am requesting to be unblocked. ] (]) 19:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Discussion continued on user's talk page. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:20, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			A reminder that the arbitration committee has designated the Horn of Africa a contentious topic, so don’t be afraid to lay down a CT advisory template for either user. ] (]) 08:30, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Both done - thanks for the reminder. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I've removed the pblock on Historian5328 as it appears what was happening was 'new user unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages's policies on reliable sourcing', but best to keep an eye on their edits. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:32, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			== ] and removal of sourced information ==
	This particular edit warring incident appears, for the moment, to have subsided. There is, of course, always the possibility that something will pop up again, either on this or related articles. Looking toward the future, I would encourage some uninvolved admins to get more involved with watching this page and related pages (such as ], ], ], ], ], and anything else that strikes their fancy). — ]] 17:27, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			{{atop
			| status = no action at this time
			| result = Participants reminded to attempt communicating with other editors before reporting their behaviour to ANI. ] (]) 21:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	== ] apparently promoting an author to which he/she is personally linked ==
			}}
			This seems to be an ongoing issue.
	I would like to get some administrative oversight a recurring problem I have been having with the user ].
			{{Userlinks|Vofa}} has lots of warnings about disruptive editing in their user page and a block.
	He/she has apparently had a Misplaced Pages account for over four years, but until very recently had only ever edited one article, which he/she had created and was the sole significant contributor for. (The sole exception was adding a spam-like link to the '']'' article.)
			Most recent example of removal of sourced information:
	The article made ridiculous claims about Japanese literature, and was based almost exclusively on the works of the ]-published poet Jeffrey Woodward. The of the article was a carbon-copy of a Woodward article, and its bibliography included a book edited by Woodward that hadn't been published yet. ], when I first came across the article, I thought "tanka prose" was an inaccurate/fringe translation of the term ''uta monogatari'', and so I moved the page there.
			I checked the source and the information is there on page 7.
	He/she initially tried to blankly revert my edits, still refusing to cite reliable secondary sources, and I reverted back . This led to a '''long''' dispute with the editor on the article's talk page. The user refused to cite any secondary sources to back up his/her claims, and continually relied on ''ad hominem'' attacks and threats against me.
			Previous examples include: . Also see: ] ] (]) 16:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	He/she appears to have also brought in a fellow SPA account to whom he/she is connected in the real world to form a ]; it is difficult to believe that the latter user ''just happened'' across the dispute less than two days after it started.
			:Just to clarify, I just noticed that there is indeed an unsourced paragraph.
	Eventually, I proposed a compromise with the user that he/she create an article on so-called "tanka prose" that didn't claim to be about classical Japanese. The user agreed to this, but then went on and made an article that basically made the same ridiculous claims as before. I removed the most offensive parts of the article, but the user continued to attack me and defend his/her right to post fringe theories about Japanese literature, as well as advertisements for Mr. Woodward's publications, on the article's talk page.
			:The reason for removal of sourced information would then be "removed text not relevant to Chagatai Khanate and Golden Horde in introduction". However the source does mention {{tq|The first of the changes leading to the formation of the Turco-Mongolian tradition ...}} and then gives Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate as examples. I don't see any ] or ] issues.
			:I am concerned about removal of sourced information that does not seem to have a rationale based on ] ] (]) 16:41, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Hi there. The matter seems to be resolved. I did remove an unsourced paragraph and general claims not relevant to the introduction. I do not see a problem with it. You seem to have linked three edits I made. In the first edit, I had to revert because I accidentally chose the minor edit option. In the second edit, I have restored the previous version, but without a minor sign. I did not remove any sources (based on what I remember) I hope to see through my edits and understand what I did or did not do wrong. Please, avoid making an ANI in bad faith. ] (]) 03:06, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::You removed source information. The part that starts with {{tq|The ruling Mongol elites ...}}
			:::{{ping|asilvering}} from the editor's talk page, you seem to be a mentor. Removing sources or sourced material without explanation, or with insufficient explanation or rationale, such as "Polished language" , is an ongoing concern with Vofa. ] (]) 15:12, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Im not sure why I’m being stalked, but the edits you’re showing as examples of myself removing sources are more than two months old. I’ve stopped removing sources. ] (]) 19:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{ping|asilvering}} This issue is still continuing ] (]) 15:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::And you previously spoke to Vofa about this where...? -- ] (]) 19:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{u|asilvering}}, I hadn't talked about removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale.
			:::::I did talk about this however . See: ]
			:::::I don't seek or expect a permanent block over this. But as a mentor and an administrator, maybe you can comment on removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale. ] (]) 19:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::@], that's a ''threat'', not an explanation. If you have a content dispute with an editor, which is what this appears to be, you need to be able to talk it out with them on the article's Talk page. @], please be careful to make sure your edit summaries explain what you're doing. I see that there ''was'' an unsourced statement in the link Bogazicili just supplied, so I presume that's what you meant by "unsourced". But the other statement you removed ''did'' have a source. It's ok to split your edits up into multiple edits if you need to do that to explain them properly, but you could also just give an edit summary like "removed unsourced; also, removed statement " that addresses both changes. -- ] (]) 23:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, I would not characterize this as a "content dispute". I was not involved in most of those articles. I got concerned after seeing edits market as minor removing sources or sourced material without any or proper explanation. That is not a content dispute, that is an editor conduct dispute. ] (]) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::What Vofa does at articles related to Turko-Mongolian history is not a content dispute but vandalism. It took me a lot of time to manually revert the hoax years and figures he added in ] article to decrease their population and he also removed sourced basic info from the lede of the ] which I had to restore. These are just some of few sneaky vandalism examples that I caught among the pages I patrol by Vofa. If you see his talk page, he has been warned a lot of times by many other editors for such mischief. ] (]) 07:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::@], Vofa hasn't edited the Turkmens article since before they were blocked. That is obviously not an ongoing issue. As for ], I ''also'' see no discussion of those edits. If you have a problem with how someone is editing, you need to communicate with them. -- ] (]) 08:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, my concerns were removal of sourced information or sources without proper rationale or explanation. Do you think that was communicated enough to Vofa in this topic, or do we need further communication? I'm asking in case Vofa continues this type of behavior. Hopefully that won't be the case. ] (]) 08:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Im going to repeat this again;
			::::::::::I have not removed any sources since I was warned about it.
			::::::::::I do not see an issue with my recent editing.
			::::::::::You should communicate with me on any issues that you have with me. ] (]) 11:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::{{u|Vofa}}, do you see any issues with this edit: ] (]) 11:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Are you implying if I see an issue with this edit of mine or with your removal of said edit? ] (]) 15:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::{{u|Vofa}}, the former. I am asking if you see any issues yourself with your own linked edit. ] (]) 17:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::I do not see an issue with the linked edit of mine. ] (]) 19:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::Indeed, really the issue was Bogazicili's, and it has now been solved in the usual way (by restoring only the sourced content). Apologies, @], for misreading it earlier. -- ] (]) 19:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, I disagree. I did miss the unsourced paragraph. However, removal of sourced content has been an ongoing issue with Vofa. They should not have removed sourced content to begin with.
			:::::::::::::::There was also a previous discussion in ANI:
			:::::::::::::::]
			:::::::::::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, again, is the threshold of communication met if removing sourced content by Vofa persists in the future? ] (]) 19:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::Basically, I'm not trying to get Vofa blocked, but they should be more careful in future when they remove sources or sourced content. They should have a reasonable rationale based in ], and they should explain that rationale properly. ] (]) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::Indeed they should. And you should not restore unsourced content once it has been removed. -- ] (]) 20:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::{{u|asilvering}}, the difference is I already acknowledged it multiple times. Is that not obvious? ] (]) 21:40, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::@], I'm going to close this report. No administrative action is required here at this time. You should make a habit of communicating on the article talk page when you get into a conflict with another editor, but you should ''always'' try to communicate with other editors before coming to ANI about their behaviour. This should be your last resort. If you make an earnest effort to communicate and are ignored, by all means report here. If there is edit-warring or obvious vandalism involved, please take that to the relevant noticeboard. -- ] (]) 21:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Thank you. ] (]) 11:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::This member often vandalises, in an article about ] he wrote huge numbers without backing them up with sources and tried to prove it was true. This is rabid vandalism. ] <sup>]</sup> 12:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::@], vandalism has a specific meaning on Misplaced Pages; an edit being unsourced does not mean it was vandalism. Do not cast aspersions on other editors in this way. @], you are edit-warring on ]. You need to stop doing that immediately. -- ] (]) 19:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I have not edited Oirats. I have stopped edit warring. ] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== "Wikifascist" & ] ==
	Eventually I got tired of the dispute and I ]. The user continued to rely almost exclusively on personal attacks in his/her comments in defense of the article there. One other user, ] expressed a similar view to me on that discussion, and was subsequently accused of being my sock-puppet.
			This one is pretty straightforward. An editor ({{ping|Last1in}}) has deemed it OK to refer to me as a "wikifascist" on their talk page (]). A clear case of ], I find this to be extremely offensive. ] (]) 03:24, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:So apparently the editor has "retired" but is continuing editing using IPs? Anyway placed a warning for personal attacks on Last1in's user talk page. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Yes, that seems to be the case. Sorry, I should have mentioned that — it's all around weird. ] (]) 04:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			==User:YZ357980==
	Consensus was ultimately reached that the subject was not notable enough to merit its own article, but some material may be merged into the article '']'' at a later date.
			*{{userlinks|YZ357980}}
			I have just rolled back this edit
			() which (1) inaccurately introduces an incorrect Somali name into ]; (2) installed a poor homemade copy of the Armed Forces crest dubious copyright and authenticity into the article, when a PD photo is visible in the infobox image; and (3) violated ] with the infobox.
			I would kindly request any interested administrator to review the very dubious insertions of inflated personnel numbers introduced by this user into various Somali military articles, plus the error ridden and biased edits warned about at the top of the editor's talk page, with a view to a ] from African & Middle East military articles, widely construed. ] ] 21:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	During the time in between my proposal of a compromise and the user's creation of the new article, he/she posted more promotional links/information for Woodward publications to the ''Haibun'' article. I ultimately got into a lengthy dispute on that article's talk page over whether such links qualify under either ] or ].
			:] doesn't have a history of communicating with other editors. I have posted to their talk page, encouraging them to come to this discussion but I'm not optimistic that they are even aware that they have a User talk page. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I have given them a final warning and also a chance for them to participate here. If they don't, let's see what they get. ] (]) 06:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			==Incivility and ABF in contentious topics==
	Since the effective deletion of the ''Tanka prose'' article, the user has been engaging in a campaign to undermine my edits on other pages, such as '']'' and '']'', where he/she continued to try to promote fringe ideas propagated in the works of his/her favourite authors.
			]'s uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it ''is'' problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:
	While the initial dispute over "tanka prose" was going on, I created a user-essay in my userspace under the title ''User:Elvenscout742/Jeffrey Woodward critique'', in which I questioned Woodward's reliability as a source for Misplaced Pages. It was misplaced, and really should have been put on ], but at the time I was not aware of the noticeboard. Recently, the user made an attempt (without ever consulting me prior) to have the page speedily deleted on shoddy grounds of it being at "attack page" and "misleading"; the request was rejected, and the user was told to put it up for deletion on '']''. There, the user basically posted the same flawed arguments against the page as before; however, ] pointed out that the page should be deleted and if necessary Mr. Woodward should be put on WP:RSN. In light of this, I posted a comment that I would not be opposed to deletion, since my page was by then out-of-date and no longer really needed to exist. The page ultimately got deleted, of course, because I was the page's creator and was not opposed to deletion. However, the fact remains that the user in question clearly made the request for deletion in order to ] and undermine me, and he/she should have discussed the page's content with me on my talk page or on the page's talk page (he/she never attempted such).
			Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.
	User:Stalwart111 there suggested posting a notice about Tristan noir's behaviour here, and so I have done so. I hope someone can provide some insight or assistance in dealing with this user, who has been posting spam on several Misplaced Pages articles over the past few months, and regularly attempting to undermine my edits.
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883
	] (]) 09:10, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			WP:NPA
	::''Note:'' I just noticed while re-reading the discussion that I actually proposed the "tanka prose" compromise only a few hours after the dispute started ( ''was not what your article claimed, and that is the only reason I saw fit to fix it ... ''''top claiming "tanka prose" dates back to ancient Japan ... and we will have no more problem''). Tristan noir and his tag team partner continued to openly argue that "tanka prose" was an ancient Japanese genre, and only later pretended to accept the terms of my initial compromise, which is the only reason the dispute continued beyond 13 September. ] (]) 02:06, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324
	*'''Comment''' - I've said all I have to say about ] on the aforementioned MFD . I maintain Tristan noir is simply ] and he has consistently failed to demonstrate anything to the contrary. Admins can make a judgement for themselves. ]] 00:46, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			Profanity
	'''Response''' - User Elvenscout ably summarized the ] nomination that he made on Sept. 30 to delete an article on “Tanka prose”; the administrator’s decision on Oct. 13 was not to delete but to merge acceptable content with the article ]. What Elvenscout neglects in his summary above is to point out that his displeasure with the AfD decision led him, within a few hours on Oct. 13, to nominate the same article for deletion via this ]. One of the participating editors in that discussion reflected that the nominator Elvenscout was engaging in ]. The conduct and timing of this nomination, too, might readily be viewed as ]. The administrator closed that RfD as a “keep” on Oct. 20.
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966
	It should be pointed out, also, that only a few days after the opening of the original AfD, Elvenscout, on Oct. 3, sought to broaden his attack and lobby for his POV with this tendentious on the ] talk page. He there directs the reader to his user page, to a “critique” of the Woodward source from the article he’d nominated for deletion, although as of Oct. 3 neither the AfD discussion nor the contents of his user page had the slightest bearing upon the ] article. While the AfD discussion was still in its early stages, from Oct. 4-5, Elvenscout sought advice from User Stalwart111 on possible future actions against this editor; administrators can review their chummy discussion here , , , , , , . And also and .
			Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor
	I tried to disengage myself earlier from controversies with Elvenscout with minor edits to the article ] on Sept. 18 but Elvenscout, whose edit history shows no prior interest in this article, followed me there on Sept. 21 with an that introduced an error of fact concerning an EL to the article. This action, and his several repeated attempts to delete material or to slant the article to fit his POV, led to a lengthy dispute on the ] talk page that dragged on for three or four weeks, and was only “resolved” when the two editors other than Elvenscout who were involved simply stopped responding and let him have his way. The dispute is so lengthy that instead of offering diffs I’ll simply point to the sub-headings ] and ] for the full context. Elvenscout’s conduct there, if it does not actually cross the line, verges closely upon ].
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877
	I further attempted, on , to disengage myself from conflict with Elvenscout by editing the article ], another article that his edit history shows no previous engagement with. However, I was followed by Elvenscout to that page as well. On Oct. 9, Elvenscout in the dispute on the talk page , as he did with the ] talk page previously, inserted further references to the ongoing AfD, a matter wholly unrelated to the ] discussion. Elvenscout again engaged not only this editor but the other contributing editors in a protracted and unproductive debate that might fairly be characterized as ]. The debate is so long that again I can only point the reader here to the relevant talk page sub-headings: ] ] and ] The same arguments can be read in summary insofar as Elvenscout, unable to come to terms with fellow editors, then took his dispute to ] on Oct. 14.
			Unicivil
	While the above disputes were being conducted simultaneously at RfD and WP:Dispute Resolution, Elvenscout employed my user talk page in a manner that violates ], ] and ]. Some of his offensive posts can be read and . He attached a that I found confrontational and inaccurate. I therefore the template but Elvenscout promptly while adding further offensive comments. During this same period or shortly before, I asked Elvenscout on three occasions, , and , to refrain from lobbying against me and making personal attacks, but his ] and ] behavior continued, as alluded to above as regards his pursuit of me to the ] and ] articles.
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027
	Elvenscout makes the flimsy complaint that my ] of an attack article that he created in his user space on Sept 25 and maintained until Nov 17 was ]. His complaint should be judged in the context of the nature and substance of his aforementioned AfD, RfD and Dispute resolution nominations. Elvenscout also offers the ridiculous accusation that this editor and another user (Kujakupoet) formed a tag team on the ] talk page; User Kujakupoet, if one consults the , made one contribution only to the discussion. His frequent speculations about my possible relationship to one author (Woodward) that he has frequently dismissed as non-notable have often crossed the line from general accusations of a possible COI to speculation about my and flimsy attempts to assert that I and the subject author may be one and the same. Such speculation is in direct conflict with policies on ] and ]. Perhaps the most remarkable accusation that Elvenscout lodges against me is this: ''The user refused to cite any secondary sources to back up his/her claims, and continually relied on ad hominem attacks and '''threats''' against me.'' I will ask Elvenscout to cite specific evidence of '''a threat''' and, should he be unable to do so, I will ask him to retract his false witness.] (]) 04:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441
	== Bishonen ==
			Contact on user page attempted
	{{archive top|result=Closing per Risker's comment "The IP editor is unable to post with their account because it was indeffed some time ago for abuse of editing privileges (including good hand/bad hand and logging out to disrupt) by Elen of the Roads." ] (]) 01:38, 27 November 2012 (UTC) }}
	{{user|Bishonen}} is in violation of both ] and ]. Should I expect at least a polite warning against Bishonen not to do things like that? Or should I expect to be flogged just for editing unregistered, like the other IP? --] (]) 18:58, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:It wasn't "", my brave fellow. It was for somebody (who obviously knew too much about Misplaced Pages to have edited ''only'' as an IP with 18 edits) choosing make a ''controversial'' post logged out. Your own list of contributions is quite interesting, too. What's your main account? ] &#124; ] 19:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC).
	::{{xt|my brave fellow}} -- I didn't expect you would stoop to ''repeating'' your ABF personal attack. More importantly however, there is a huge difference between e.g. politely noting that given the context of AC elections, IP comments may be assigned less weight by some -- and simply assuming a bad faith contribution and calling IP editors "anonymous cowards".
	::{{xt|It was for somebody (who obviously knew too much about Misplaced Pages to have edited ''only'' as an IP with 18 edits)}} -- I take it you have never heard of dynamically assigned IP addresses. I do not have an account, but thanks for repeating your blanket ABF against IP editors a third consecutive time. --] (]) 19:32, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::: What are you asking for here? What are you asking administrators to do? I can't see a darn thing that would be worth doing here, except to tell you to get over it. A slightly snarky comment was made to someone who is very knowledgeable about Arbcom for an anon with 18 edits, drawing the obvious conclusion. If Bish was mistaken, she was mistaken. You have now told her of her error, if that is what it was. There is nothing more to do here. ]<small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::{{xt| Or should I expect to be flogged just for editing unregistered, like the other IP?}} -- Guess I have my answer.
	::::What should be done here? A warning should be issued to Bishonen against assuming bad faith and against making personal attacks. "Slightly snarky" is your own personal assessment which I do not share.
	::::{{xt|someone who is very knowledgeable about Arbcom for an anon with 18 edits, drawing the obvious conclusion}} -- Again, dynamically assigned IPs. That's the "obvious conclusion" for anyone assuming good faith.
	::::{{xt|If Bish was mistaken, she was mistaken.}} -- Like I pointed out, Bishonen could and should have worded that comment ''much'' more considerately. Saying something like "Just in case you are a registered user editing logged out right now, please log in and sign your comment because under the circumstances of an AC election, IP comments will be given less credence and weight by many established users." -- That would have been perfectly fine, and it would account for the ''possibility'' that the IP is not acting in bad faith. What Bishonen wrote doesn't. Bishonen simply assumed that the IP is a logged out registered user. Bishonen vigorously excluded the possibility that the IP was just ''maybe'' acting in good faith.
	::::And finally, KC, you are a wikifriend of "Bish". Shouldn't you openly declare that conflict of interest before jumping to your friend's defense, pretending like you're all neutral on this issue? --] (]) 21:04, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::::You may be right... as a friend, I should warn her - something like "Hey Bish, don't make slightly snarky comments to trolls, they'll eat up ANI and annoy us all" should do nicely. Puppy has spoken, puppy is done. ]<small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:34, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:: Maybe it is all those years I've spent at ], but I don't see the phrase "Anonymous Coward" as a personal attack. (if you don't know, this usage would be 100% consistent with how it is used there and in other places, a non-logged in user). It isn't the most polite thing to say, but this is certainly below any threshold that would require swift action with the block button. This is the other side of civility that requires we all overlook such little things, simple opinions of others, as focusing on them only distracts from the issue at hand. I will say that any question regarding socking should be directed to ] rather than here or on the talk page of editors, but again, I don't see anything that demands swift and decisive ''action'' here. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 20:29, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*The IP editor is unable to post with their account because it was indeffed some time ago for abuse of editing privileges (including good hand/bad hand and logging out to disrupt) by Elen of the Roads. ] (]) 21:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Coincidence''': Oddly, I've been seeing another editor use the same green text to highlight words today. ]. I'm not motivated enough to see if there is overlap though. Maybe someone else will check. ] (]) 21:51, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*Why am I not surprised? Troll, indeed. ]<small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:54, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*(1) Shouldn't the IP be blocked for block evasion. (2) Recently blocked disruptive troll ] also used green highlighting. ] (]) 21:56, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	*People, the {{tl|xt}} template and its friends have numerous users, and observing that two people use it on two noticeboards is about as diagnostic as noticing that two editors in this very discussion both know how to use <source lang=html5 enclose=none><small></source>. ] (]) 22:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::*Oh, yes, Uncle G is absolutely right. Using ''green'' text for quotes is especially common. Or alternatively it's highly significant… because once I used green text and was attacked ''for doing it as a way of getting at a user with "Green" in their username''. My enraged opponent called it a "billion-to-one-coincidence". :-) Similarly, two people both using green text has no significance at all. ] &#124; ] 23:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC).
	::*I said it was a coincidence and freely admitted I hadn't checked for overlap. Not sure where you got the impression there was analysis done. ] (]) 22:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	: It's interesting that this particular troll who appears to hail from Central Europe claims ''dynamic'' IPs that are actually assigned as ''static'' IPs . Someone who actually has had to make the effort to change IP address (as in this case) is the last person we should be allowing to criticise the use of "anonymous coward" in describing them. --] (]) 00:00, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795
	According to Risker, the IP's account is indeffed. Therefore, the IP should be barred for block evasion. ] (]) 00:26, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	Blessed be the boomerang! <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 01:41, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:IPs still not blocked. ] (]) 08:08, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	::He also admits to being the same user as {{user|87.78.52.199}}, while trying to mess with an ANI archive. Both IP's geolocate to the same German city. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 02:18, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent
	== Blocking a user ==
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557] (]) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	I am writing request that user Mary Cummins be blocked from editing the page Bat World Sanctuary - .
			:Think this calls for a fierce ] slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a ] according to ], as this is just an ] and frankly, I don't see ''direct'' personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as {{tq|some diffs from the past few days}} are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	I recently won a 6.1 Million dollar judgement for harassment and defamation, and she is now targeting me and my non-profit on Misplaced Pages. I have sent several emails to your admin requesting our page be deleted entirely to prevent her from adding false and defamatory statements (including accusing me of 'sock puppeting," whatever that is). Please tell me how I can either have my nonprofits page entirely deleted or have her blocked from editing our page. More information on our lawsuit can be viewed here:
			::Would I be the person to provide you with that {{tq|further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions}}? I did think that it would be more than a ], since that's for {{tq|one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior}} and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern ]. ] (]) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:@]: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. ''Hob should know better'', and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to ]. But I would ''caution you'' about ] and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your , , and it seems like you're having a problem handling a ] and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.
			:Furthermore it does appear that you might be ] because your attempts at ] for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. , , , , , , and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding ] and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards ]. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. ]&thinsp;] 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address ''unique issues'' as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Lardlegwarmers#c-Liz-20241210000200-Editors_getting_banned_for_being_a_%22dick%22,_editing_Covid-19_articles</ref> that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines.<ref>"{{tq|All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.}}" https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests/ANI</ref> Thank you for your time and input.
			::] (]) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: {{tq|trying to report other editors in bad faith}}. ] (]) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{OD}}
			@]: Jay brought something to my attention with . It looks like there is ] (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think {{!tq|hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason!}} I'm confused. This specific revision also ] about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. {{tq|Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.}} I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, ], what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, '''not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT''', in your own words. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. ] (]) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	Thank you,
			::look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @], you should familiarise yourself with ]. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. ] (]) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a ] slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{u|BarntToust}} You're being ] and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @], I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a '''formal warning''' or a ] slap is what needs to happen to Hob. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. ] (]) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are ] and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @], I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::@], I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. for ''context'', in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. ] (]) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Thanks! *curtsy* ] (]) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. ] (]) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	Amanda Lollar
			:I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? ] (]) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	Bat World Sanctuary <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:I'd think it be best if both of you stay away from that article, since you're both connected to it and both have a ]. Have you notified Mary Cummins about this thread? ] (]) 20:44, 26 November 2012 (UTC)		::@] As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? ] (]) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: I just noticed Mary Cummins. ] (]) 21:00, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". ]] 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::I would ask Batworld to sign their posts with four ~ things, and would suggest that they read ]. I would point out that I am acting as a neutral party in this matter as regards the off-wiki dispute, and have just declined a speedy deletion request (not posted by Batworld) on the Batworld Sanctuary page, as being made with an inappropriate criterion. ] (]) 21:16, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' ]? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word ''bullshit'', which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills"]] seems pretty temperate. And so on. ] &#124; ] 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
	: (e/c)
	: Batworld is an inappropriate username and should be changed. A comment about the uname was made on Batworld's talk page, but has been deleted.
	: Links given above show a judgment against Cummins and a court order to remove material from specific websites. WP is not mentioned in that order. General injunction appears to only cover posts about episiotomy at other websites (such as WP).
	: Both parties have a COI re editing the page.
	: Cummins has removed sourced material from BWS that puts BWS in a good light.
	: Cummins has edited the article to state that the judgment is being appealed. The source is prweb. Generally, prweb would not qualify as an independent source, but it would pass for a simple statements that a judgment is being appealed.
	: Cummins edited the article so that it admits the judgment but emphasizes her side. (For example, "Cummins stated 'Everything I stated about Amanda Lollar and Bat World Sanctuary is 100% the truth backed up with facts and physical evidence.'") Fails NPOV.
	: Cummins has edited the article to mention a defamation lawsuit by Cummins against Lollar. The source is also prweb. The post is inappropriate news. WP has no secondary source that the lawsuit is significant / due.
	: Caution both sides about ].
	: ] (]) 21:32, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::I'd suggest a topic ban on both sides, and someone neutral (no, not me...) to clean up the article to a neutral position. Someone's got to say it. I'm not advocating censorship of the article - but things referenced to PR sites should go ASAP or be referenced properly. ] (]) 21:52, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::*'''Support.''' Both have a legal COI. ] (]) 21:55, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::I actually nominated the article for deletion because the two of them had managed to remove all of the information that actually demonstrates notability (and I couldn't find any myself...I think Google News isn't looking at archives as conveniently as it used to). I've rolled it back to the April 2011 version, which was right after the last AfD, and withdrawn my nomination. The lawsuit, as far as I can tell, has not been covered in the press, and so should not be mentioned in the article at all. Both of these people obviously are way way too involved to be editing the article directly. Both either misunderstand Misplaced Pages policies or don't care about them. They both absolutely need to be topic banned. ] (]) 22:13, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at ] where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. ] (]) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	I was just notified of this discussion about me by Wiki. I did not post anything defamatory on the Bat World Sanctuary page. I corrected incorrect items about Bat World and their lawsuit against me. FTR I'm appealing the decision. Appeals Court already over turned the Judge's last order. She sued me for defamation in retaliation for me reporting her to authorities for animal cruelty, neglect and violations of the health code. I am also suing her for defamation in California. Notice that user Bat World Sanctuary has same IP as the other main editor to the page. Here are legal docs from my lawsuit against her
			:My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - ] (]) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			Hob Gadling failing to yield to ], apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. ] (]) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	I only corrected incorrect items on the page. For instance they were legally formed in 2010, not 1994. They are not the biggest bat rescue. They only have 350 bats. The Guiness world record for a bat rescue is 1.8 - 2.5 million bats. Amanda Lollar did not go past the ninth grade. She is not a scientist or a scholar as she claimed. Her bat sanctuary is her home in Mineral Wells, Texas. The City and government agencies were complaining about her for over 18 years. I posted all of the reports. She finally sold one of her buildings because of the complaints last January. ] (]) 22:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:The legal documents are not reliable sources on Misplaced Pages. The lawsuits have never been reported on in the press, and thus cannot be discussed here. The changes you have made are not verified by reliable sources, which is a requirement on Misplaced Pages. You have your own blog, and "correct" the story based upon what you believe to be the truth there. ] (]) 22:19, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Actually, I just realized this: both editors are parties to ongoing litigation. ] says that you can't edit at the same time that litigation is pending. By that rule, both must be either blocked or absolutely topic banned. I've started editing the article, so I'm involved now and will have to ask another admin to do the honors. ] (]) 22:21, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::Check your sources for info on Bat World. Amanda Lollar who runs Bat World lies to the press. She told the press she graduated from high school. In deposition it turns out she didn't go past the ninth grade. Most items in the press are things she told the press herself. They are not accurate. I feel that the Bat World Sanctuary page should not include anything about the ongoing litigation by either party. ] (]) 22:26, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	I will block both users until they can assure us they will not edit the article in question while the case and any appeal is ongoing. ] ] 22:36, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Both blocks enacted. If either gives a convincing assurance that they will not further edit the article while litigation is ongoing, any admin should please feel free to unblock without reference to me. I would '''support''' a topic ban should either/both be unblocked but it seemed most prudent to enact the block immediately to stop any further to-ing and fro-ing on the article. ] ] 22:45, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:: Well done. The post just above by Mary Cummins illustrates well why we have NLT and BLP. ] (]) 09:51, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::I think an interaction ban is also in order. -- ] ] ] ] &spades; 09:55, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	Can someone revdel a few diffs on the talk page? Outing information, eg &nbsp;&nbsp;]{{SubSup||]|]}} 22:56, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	: I thought the same, but Batworld outs herself at start of this post, so issue is moot. ] (]) 23:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	No offence to Kim Dent-Brown, but could someone who is not the blocking administrator respond to the unblock request by Mary Cummins? The blocking policy says it should be handled by an uninvolved administrator. Also as she was blocked for 'No Legal Threats' technically policy only requires that they make a commitment to not make further threats and retract the ones they have - not that they have to stay away from topic/talk pages. (No matter if it is ultimately a good idea.) ] (]) 13:49, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:None taken. I'd be happy for any admin who sees this differently to unblock, setting whatever conditions they think necessary. ] ] 14:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Mary Cummins has made another unblock request and as it says everything we wanted I have unblocked. I could have waited for another admin to see this but I presume she will not complain at the unblock and thought she would rather have it come sooner from me than later from someone else. ] ] 15:03, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	::: I said "No" to her talk page request about posting at the Bat World Sanctuary AfD. ] (]) 20:27, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. ] (]) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	== ] ==
			*'''Propose''' serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at ]. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) ] (]) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:For context, ] is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling.<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1266980661</ref> ] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. ] (]) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. ] (]) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Recuse{{smiley}} Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. ] (]) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. ] (]) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*As a note, Hob Gadling without comment and has not responded here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	Not really an "incident", but more of a notice.
			*:Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. ] (]) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{od}}
			Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing ] misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as ], and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as ]. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. ]]<sup>]</sup> 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	Over the long US holiday weekend there was a situation where a report on WP:E sat without response for a good number of hours. It appears that the WP:E regulars (myself one of them) were mostly offline, enjoying the holiday.
			:Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. ] (]) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	So the issue has come up of, what should be the preferred next step for someone bringing up an issue to WP:E when it sits for too long without response? The discussion started on WP:E itself, but has now been moved to the ]. I'm mentioning this here since one of the logical routes to direct people when WP:E is not generating a response is to encourage them to come here to AN/I. So getting AN/I regulars involved in the discussion would be helpful. - ] (]) 21:42, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:It would be good if several more active administrators would watchlist the Errors page. I have done so for sometime, but wasn't active for much of the holiday weekend. ] (]) 22:42, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:*I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) {{tq|bullshit}} to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that ''that'' was what led Lardlewarmers to try and , a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward ] situation. --] (]) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	*Try the IRC channels...? - ] &#124; <sup>] and ]</sup> 04:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:*:There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "]" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to ] and stop treating ]. ] (]) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: Not everyone has easy IRC access (I don't). Asking people to go off-wiki for on-wiki assistance just does not seem right to me. - ] (]) 14:02, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	::: Seems like we need more non-American administrators. - ] ] 17:55, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::: I'm non-American. It's just not a task I was even aware of, believe it or not. I'd expect that's pretty common (]''']''']) 18:47, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::I am an America, but was online off-and-on much of the weekend. I simply hadn't been aware of WP:E. It's on my watchlist now. --- ] <small>(] • ])</small> - 23:05, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	: From the discussion on the talk page of WP:E, we have two separate issues. One is getting more admins to watch WP:E itself regularly. (WP:E requires admins, as it is all about requests for edits to content directly visible on the Main Page, and all such content is normally fully protected.) I'm thinking that regular notices to WP:AN (one every 2-3 months) would help in this respect. The second is a route of appeal when an issue is not handled promptly. Based on the discussion, directing people to WP:AN or WP:AN/I in these cases should work. If this "appeal" route is abused, it can be reevaluated. - ] (]) 22:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	== User:Doncram is deciding who can and can't participate in an RFC on a WikiProject talk page ==
	{{archive top|Standard notification templates aren't harassment and are a valid exception to any request to stay off a talk page. Removing other's comments on a Project or other external talk page is inappropriate, and a repeat might earn a block. This is pretty standard stuff, not anything new. Doesn't appear that action is forthcoming or needed at this time. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 03:06, 28 November 2012 (UTC)}}
	: ] deleted my rather lengthy comments on a WikiProject talk page discussion about the use of images in a variety of articles. He made a long statement on his reasons for removing my comments; the salient point there seems to be that he "perceive the ] point to be an assertion of that editor's "right" to follow edits and complicate". I don't believe that ] owns the WikiProject (of which I am also a listed member); he certainly does not have the right to bar me from engaging in a discussion of editing questions. I am way past being tired of his personal attacks on me -- and his insistence that I am engaged in wikihounding. I have not restored my comments to the page nor replied to Doncram. I think it best for someone else to intervene. --] (]) 23:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:{{done}} ] has responded to this incident. --] (]) 23:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	::But not because I'd read this thread; I'm here only because I saw it while looking at ANI. Someone else pointed me to the discussion in question, and it was quite obvious that he'd removed something you said, so I restored it. ] (]) 01:32, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			{{reflist}}
	:(ec) In response to pressure from other editors, Orlady ceased following and contending against my edits for a welcome respite of several months. I resent the return of this. Orlady has an outstanding completely bogus AFD open against an article that I created, and now has twice edited at my Talk page in direct defiance of my wishes. The editor has several times expressed hatred against me and fanned flames of contention involving other editors, and has been deeply uncivil over many years. I just want the editor to stop stalking me. It serves no good purpose for wikipedia that this editor follow and contend, in this case by causing complication. As I note at the Talk page, I did remove the comment, and said that i would not remove it again if anyone else restored it, though I wish no one will condone the behavior. I suggest that ANI frequentors leave it to local NRHP editors to make that choice. Nothing to do here. And I am sorry i cannot engage in extended discussion, may not be able to reply further. --]]] 23:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Thread on List of Crypids talk page has devolved into an unproductive flame war ==
	::Oh, for crying out loud. I'm starting to think that Doncram and Orlady and a host of other people aren't even interested in improving the encyclopedia in general, or the NRHP articles in particular, for the end user who might actually read these articles. It's just a game of protecting personal interests these days. --] <sup>]</sup> 23:50, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::Crying out loud, indeed. I am well aware that Doncram doesn't like it when I post on his talk page, but where else was there for me to post to inform him when I started the AFD on and when I started this ANI discussion? --] (]) 04:50, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			]
	::::This again? Time for the nuclear option of starting some sort of discretionary sanctions for NRHP. This comes up several times a year and always the same names. ] (]) 09:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::How about doncram stop removing people's comments on pages that arn't his talk page, to start with? Orlady acted appropriately by coming here, doncram should've done so earlier if he felt there was hounding. Close this with a trout for Doncram for removing comments that arn't his and lets move on.--v/r - ]] 15:07, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::Post on their talk page. When a user says "don't post on my talk page" that means you don't initiate any unnecessary posts or warnings or the like on their page. However, if a notification is required, an editor post one, preferably using a standardized template message if one exists. e.g. <nowiki>{{subst:ANI-notice}}</nowiki> <small>]</small> 15:35, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			The thread, '''''List rapidly further degrading''''' initially started out as another attempt to delete the list and similar Cryptozoology pages but has now devolved into toxicity with insults and personal attacks directed at users engaging with the thread. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 05:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	* I suggested Orlady on their talk page to get me involved next time they would need to communicate directly to Doncram, this could hopefully help.--] (]) 15:14, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Note that this account, an ] created in August of 2024 and focused on cryptozoology subjects, is likely one of the cryptozoology-aligned accounts discussed below (). ] (]) 05:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: When I AFD an article, it automagically notifies the creator. If I was Orlady, I certainly would not start manually AFDing articles just to avoid notifying someone...if that happened, doncram would be back here in 2 seconds saying she was nominating ''his'' articles without notifying him. Ridiculous, really (]''']''']) 23:55, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			::I am not entirely focused on cryptozoology, as I have edited topics related to film, music, literature, zoology, video games, extinction, and technology. How is asking for an article to be cited on a zoology article related to cryptozoology? ] (]) 06:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	** If Doncram insists that even boilerplate notifications count as harassment, then that makes sense. As to the deletion of comments, Doncram should by this point be aware that his personal interpretation of what to do when he feels that a user is harassing him (i.e. whatever he wants) only leads to more drama (such as this). It's getting rather late in the day to be pointing this out. ] (]) 17:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::], what action are you seeking here? If you are making a complaint about personal attacks, you must provide evidence/"diffs" of examples of the conduct you are complaining about. Just mentioning a talk page without identifying the editors or edits that are problematic will likely result in no action being taken. You need to present a full case here and if you mention any editor by name, you need to post a notification of this discussion on their User talk page. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User lobbying fringe subculture off-site for fringe subculture and suspicions of ]ry ==
	{{archive bottom}}
			{{atop|1=It's said that ] - well, ANI is ''also'' not a place to bring fishing expeditions. If you have evidence of ''recent'' misconduct by an editor, then by all means bring it. But if you just {{tqq| more would come to light}}, expect a {{tl|trout}}ing. I'm closing this as unactionable with a fish for the OP, and a caution to in the future compile evidence ''before'' coming to ANI. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			Over at ] and the very questionable ], both extremely ] topics strongly linked to for example ], myself and a few other users find ourselves having to respond to a lot of accounts that either openly or less than openly state that they're members of the article's subject subculture and that, like the subculture's founders, have a strong distaste for experts ( from one such fairly new account, {{ping|KanyeWestDropout}}).
			One of these editors, {{user|Paleface Jack}}, has been caught lobbying off site (). The user has also likely done so elsewhere that hasn't come to light. This user's efforts appear to have led to a variety of ]s popping up to ] any and all changes they disagree with, an effort to shape the articles to the subculture's preference.
	== Biased posting of ] in my COI request concerning my own article talk page ] ==
			Again, it's important to emphasize that not only has Paleface Jack been caught red-handed here but he has likely also lobbied elsewhere, leading to long-term problems for these and associated articles.
	{{Archive top
	|result = No admin action is warranted here. All editors are biased in some way and every editor has the right to calmly and politely express their opinion on talk pages. Fram expressed their opinion about the edit request and left the actual decision up to someone else on whether the edit should be made. The discussion should continue on the article's talk page. ]&nbsp;] 22:15, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	|status = none }}
	* ]
	* ]
	* {{diff|User talk:Jimbo_Wales|524669454|524668595|prior discussion}} at ]
	* ]
	* ]
	* ]
	* ]
	Hello.
	I know now that it is discouraged to edit an article which is about yourself, but before I knew this, along with many other things I edited the article about me ]. And I did that honestly, always with the true.
	Until that day that I got in conflict concerning an edit of my article with the user ] . At the time because I was mad and it was unfair in my opinion, I got myself blocked for making legal threats and then socking.
	I, then, asked help to ], Jimbo talk page as to how to get out of this mess, he showed me the path and now I'm not blocked anymore. He also advised me (Jimbo) to make a COI request to edit my article and that's what I did.
	But there is a problem, this user ] who is not neutral because of his involvement with ] concerning me ( ] ) asked him his help concerning the problem he had with me), is trying to make my COI request fail with biased speech on my article talk page.
	I have asked him to refrain from discussing my COI request since he is personally involved but he refuse to do so.
	He claims that all my reliable sources supporting my COI request should be ignored because, basically, I'm me ]
	Can someone help me with this ? --] (]) 13:24, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:I've closed the duplicate report at ]. ]] 13:28, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	Thank you Sir, can you also help me to notify the user ], I really don't understand how to do it ?--] (]) 13:30, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:I've already notified {{user|Fram}} and {{user|Bbb23}}. ]] 13:31, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	Thank you Sir.--] (]) 13:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			As some users here know, I edit a lot on fringe topics and have all but single-handedly written our coverage on topics like ], utilizing nothing but the highest quality possible sources. Along the way, I've endured relentless insults and less-than-pleasant anonymous messages. I've been a personal target for users like Paleface Jack and co for years.
	: People get to have opinions, and you will have to live with the fact that others disagree with you. You need to discuss the matter on the talk page and build consensus. If that can't be achieved, you must use the ]; administrators will not drive off dissenters for you. -- ]'''ჷ'''] 13:37, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:: Ditto - this does not require any administrator intervention. You should continue to use the talk page, and then take any further disagreement to dispute resolution if that fails to work out. ]] 13:44, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	If you correctly read what I have posted you might understand that I have nothing against others opinions but against BIASED opinions. I don't think it's fair for me when you have someone involved in a dispute to actually comment on the COI request that I have made, especially when the request is concerning directly what the dispute was in the first place. Did I make myself clear enough for you ?--] (]) 13:43, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:What makes you believe Fram is biased against you in any way? ]] 13:44, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	* Just because you ''state'' your COI, doesn't absolve you from it. You remain 100% required to use Misplaced Pages's policies regarding source: for example, YOU are not a ]. People who are the subject of an article ''may'' remove non-]-conforming information on sight from an article, but it is ''extremely highly recommended'' that other than removing vandalism, all other changes should be proposed and discussed on the article talkpage in order to a) verify the sourcing, and b) obtain consensus. If you follow these recommendations, there's no need to drag you to ] (]''']''']) 13:48, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	This: ] see {{diff|User talk:Francparler|525123712|525122940|HIS last comment}} and this ] and then watch everything that he wrote on my COI request. It's clear to me, he's doing everything he can to make my COI fail if you are not convinced by all this then explain me why he always follow up on everything I'm trying to do here (which is not much). I don't care about people disagreeing with me as long that they are neutral.--] (]) 13:53, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	Again, that has nothing to do with why I am complaining here. I am willing to discuss why the editing of the page should be made but I am not willing to discuss it (since it's impossible) with biased users. And I think that concerning Misplaced Pages's rules, I can ask for neutral users to review with me my COI request and not being harassed by biased users on the talk pages.--] (]) 13:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			As is far too typical in our ] spaces, any action by myself and others introducing ] on these articles is responded to with endless talk page lawyering and complaints from these cryptozoology-associated or -aligned editors, who fill talk pages with page after page of insult-ladden chatter about anything that doesn't fit their preferred messaging. This not infrequently includes insults toward non-adherents abiding by ] and ] (as an example, recently one of the users decided to refer to me as a "", for example). This pattern has been going on for years and is a clear indication of long-term ] and I've frankly put up wth it for far too long.
	And I would simply hope that "how many friends you have in Misplaced Pages" doesn't decide which edit is good and which edit isn't !
	My edit is true and relevant, I can prove it, so I don't even start to understand why I am stopped from editing it.--] (]) 14:02, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			This is an all too common pattern that many editors who edit in new religious movement, pseudoscience, or fringe spaces will recognize as an unfortunate reality of editing in these spaces on the site.
	:{{ec}}Francparler, none of the things that Fram said to you, nor their conversation with Bbb23, suggest anything that Fram is aiming to make your COI request fail. Both Fram and Bbb23 are administrators and as such their actions have been above board in their dealings regarding you. Bbb23 asked for an extra admin to look over the situation and approached Fram because they've previously done so. This is entirely appropriate. As an administrator, Fram ''could have'' declined your request, however, but chose ''not to'' but instead participated in the discussion by offering an opinion as an '''editor''' not an '''adminstrator'''. Any experienced editor would likely have posed the same questions that were asked. Fram is entirely free to post at the edit request on the article talk page and unfortunately for you, you have no say about whether they can or cannot post there. An uninvolved admin, Kim Dent Brown, has already responded and he will make the appropriate judgements based on his view of the matter. This should be closed forthwith and Kim Dent-Brown left to deal with it. ] (]) 14:18, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			I recommend that Paleface Jack be topic banned for off-site lobbying for meatpuppets, if nothing else, as well as likely associated accounts per ]. ] (]) 05:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*{{ec}}I was tempted to just close this, but let me try to explain instead. COI editing is allowed, but you have to follow the same rules as everyone else. The problem with COI editing is that it almost impossible for you to be objective and resist the urge to remove information that you think is wrong, even if it is sourced. Or to add information that you absolutely know is true, but can't be sourced. You have no choice but to talk with biased editors. YOU are a biased editor. We all have biases of one kind or another, so what is expected is for us to rise above them then editing. The problem you have raised is about editing, so there is nothing we lowly admin can do for you. Editors decide content of the articles, not admin. You need to accept that you are one voice, and one voice only, and being that person doesn't give you special voting power. Most importantly, our goal at Misplaced Pages is not The Truth&trade;, it is to publish facts that we can verify in reliable sources. This means that we sometimes sacrifice accuracy in favor of verification. This is not a flaw, it is a deliberate decision. Those are the breaks. If you can't live with this, then you should not edit the article. Right now, your time would be best spent learning what is and isn't a reliable source, and learning how to incorporate the information you want incorporated '''within our guidelines'''. Asking for help is often more fruitful than dragging people to WP:AN and WP:ANI. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 14:18, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	Let me just put this then, Jimmy Wales own written words:
	:::This is an unfortunate and I fear typical tale. It is a good example of why we advise people that it is unwise to directly edit their own biographies - it can end in an unfortunate and needless conflict. Here's the most important thing: the changes being suggested by Mr. Bourdin (or whoever he is, if we aren't sure) should be considered thoughtfully and without prejudice as to what the history of this conflict is. There is nothing more important than Misplaced Pages being correct. Beyond that, what I'd like to see is a path forward for Mr. Bourdin to "come in from the cold". Perhaps he could identify to the Foundation and promise to use only one account and not make legal threats and not edit his own biography directly, and then we can all regard this as an unfortunate misunderstanding and move past it with dignity. But even if that doesn't happen, we need to make sure that Misplaced Pages is correct.--] (]) 08:44, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
	If I can read correctly he wrote: "...we need to make sure that Misplaced Pages is correct...".
	And even if you don't like it Mister Brown, I will use Misplaced Pages's rules to help me, defending myself against biased users. And I will do what I feel I have to do within Misplaced Pages's rules in order to show that I am right.
	What's strange about this it's that it's always users that have a good relationship with ], like ] or you Mister Brown that are expressing themselves here about a matter that in my opinion you shouldn't interfere with. But then again don't expect me to do what you say. As long as I respect Misplaced Pages's rules I can complaint, and trust me I will not let that matter drop. Thank you--] (]) 14:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Franc, may I offer a suggestion? The people above, including Fram, are offering you advice. No one is trying to make anything fail here, no one is against you. I strongly recommend you try to do more listening than proving here. Arguing and proving led you down the path to a block last time. Try to hear and understand what others are trying to say.--v/r - ]] 15:04, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I don't have any disdain for Loxton and Prothero, all I said was that cryptozoologists have historically discussed a large number of "cryptids" which is something you could see from reading cryptozoologist papers ans books. I've previously cited Loxton/Prothero on cryptozoological wikipedia pages ] (]) 06:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	{]. You also seem to have missed Jimbo's opening statement "It is a good example of why we advise people that it is unwise to directly edit their own biographies...". '''Important note to you Francparler''' (in case you think that I am siding with the admins on this matter) I have no opinion on what material should or should not go in to this article as an uninvolved admin has already taken it in hand (note: I'm not an admin, nor have I had any interaction with Bbb23, Fram or Dennis Brown beyond some administrative matters on this board). Furthermore, your comment that anyone who has "a good relationship with ], like ] or you Mister Brown that are expressing themselves here about a matter that in my opinion you shouldn't interfere with" is a flagrant assumption of bad faith and makes it obvious to anyone reading it that your posting here was not to get other opinions, but merely to get opinions that you want to hear. Anything else anyone says automatically makes them on Bbb23's "side". As I said before, this should be closed and left to Kim Dent-Brown on the talk page. ] (]) 15:07, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			::This user's actual comment in response to my mention of Prothero & Loxton, a dreaded ]: "Learning about cryptozoologists by reading secondhand sources is a poor way to find out what cryptozoologists have actually done historically" (). Funny how a spotlight on ANI can change an editor's tune. ] (]) 07:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I'll chime in here too, as being not involved, and can only second what Tparis said above: no one is against you, all I can see is a big will to offer you advice. Vous devriez écouter, et pas prendre chaque chose dite à propos de ce sujet comme attaque (You should listen, and not take everything said concerning the subject as an attack). ] (]) 15:10, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::Thaf didnt change my tune at all! I mentioned that I personally liked that book before you posted this ] (]) 14:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	I'm sorry ] but what I mean is I will use Misplaced Pages rules the way Misplaced Pages rules indicate me as to how and when to use them. I believe I can do that right ? If I'm wrong and that you can block me then please do it, if not then refrain from threatening me, directly or indirectly as I believe it violate some rules in Misplaced Pages too. I'm done here. Thank you to those few who did not judge me and know how to read a simple request.--] (]) 15:19, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			::The incident Bloodoffox is referring to happened years ago when I did not know that was even a rule. It was a mistake I have not repeated, nor have I violated any rules since that incident.
	*Francparler, the reason I inject myself is that you brought the issue to an ''administrative'' board and I'm an admin and you linked a discussion on my talk page, and I've had to act due to your ''behavior'' before. Even then, as an IP, I tried to keep you from getting blocked for a legal threat but you refused to listen. You might not like what I have to say, but my intention is to help you and reduce the odds that this ends badly. If it continues in forum after forum, it could end in a disruption block, as TParis has pointed out. I agree that it is best handled by Kim Dent-Brown on the talk page over there, who is arguably one of the most patient and level headed admin we have at Misplaced Pages. This place, ANI has earned the reputation "the drama board" for a reason. This is the last resort, the final call for resolution on editor ''behavior'', not content. I'm not questioning the material you want to add/delete (that is outside the scope of this board). I'm saying that this is the wrong place to solve your problems.] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 15:35, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	{{Archive bottom}}
			::That being said, Bloodoffox has a history of antagonizing other users associated with the topic. I am not aware of any of the other occasions where he has been harassed by users, so I sympathize. There are bad editors on this site that do that behavior or make edits that are, in kinder words, sloppy. Fringe topics are constrained as they are to avoid pandering or making it a massive advocation for them and should remain within the neutral guidelines that are enforced on fringe topics.
	== Template:Infobox women ==
			::Yes, the topics do need a lot of work, and its hard to find the few good editors that know what they are doing with fringe topics. I myself follow the topic out of interest, not advocacy, and I rarely edit on it mainly cause of a backlog of other projects. I don't pop on to cause trouble as Bloodoffox loves to accuse me of, among the many personal attacks he has made against me. I have had no such incidents since my mistake way back in the day and I have not made any since then. The sole reason I commented in the discussion was because I could see it was rapidly devolving into an antagonistic nature, and though my words could have been put differently, I always wrote that we "needed to find common ground". It has become a point of frustration with this, because of personal attacks on my character and what I have contributed to this site. I am not a disruptor by any means and Bloodoffox has keep making accusations or belittling comments in regards to me and other users who disagree with him. His aggressive and belittling behavior has a huge role in antagonizing other users and it does need to stop. I might be frustrated, but I cannot see how this does any good with moving projects and topics forwards. Banning me from the topic is unnecessary and overkill. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small>
	I created the ] to show, among other things, the ] for every country in the series of articles 'women in…'. As can be seen in ] and in the article about the GII itself, there are 146 countries ranked on the list. Another editor keeps on insisting that the template should only rank 145 countries instead, based on a number stated in some pages of the source document http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2011_EN_Complete.pdf, which I believe is a simple mistake however. Any opinion that will help get to the bottom of this rather silly issue is most welcome.--] (]) 19:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:If the only example of off-wiki canvasing is a single blog post from seven years ago, I'm not seeing any case for sanctions. - ] (]) 07:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I can see where it refers to 145 about a half dozen times, but I can't see where you are getting 146. Can you point to the page? All of the charts appear to me to have 187 countries. What's going on?--v/r - ]] 19:37, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			::This is the only clear incident I've encountered. However, there's good reason to suspect that there's more. Note also that although the user is happy to apologize about it when called on it here, the user also never deleted the off-site lobbying on the cryptozoology wiki. ] (]) 07:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: The human development index has been calculated for 187 countries. Either 145 (according to text) or 146 (according to table 4) of them also had their GII calculated. I'd have the template report "out of 146" because you're basing it on the table data, not the explanatory text, and saying Yemen ranked "146 out of 145" is visibly wrong. <small>also, why do you need an admin to resolve this content dispute?</small> ] (]) 20:20, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			::I can see a case for a {{tl|trout}} for the OP, at the very least. (Trout-erang?) - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'm sorry, Bloodofox, if this has been a contentious area to edit in (there are many such areas on the project) but we can't sanction editors based on suspicions, we require evidence of misconduct and if it is off-wiki behavior, it might be more appropriate to send it to ARBCOM. You have provided a narrative statement of how difficult it is to edit in this field but with few diffs illustrating conflict and other editors have providing competing narratives. This isn't your first trip to ANI so you know what is required here for an admin to take action. And if you do provide some more evidence, I encourage you to provide RECENT evidence (like from the past 3 years), not diffs or statements from when an editor was new and unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages policies and practices. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::While the editor and his off-site post was from 2018 (yet somehow claims to not know it was not OK to canvas for meatpuppets off-site), I figured this might be the case and hoped more would come to light about what's going on off-site (I expect more will, in which case I'll return). ] (]) 08:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::As I have said before, I am not used to conflict on the site and naively did that. If you look back at that whole debate, I did reply saying I was not aware that it was bad. If you look at my history of edits, I rarely (if ever) participate in conflict. I prefer to edit like everyone else on here in a constructive and beneficial manner, so all those accusations strike a nerve with me as they are both untrue and slander. As I have said previously, bloodoffox has a history of provoking conflict by aggressive behavior towards other editors, even when those editors are in the wrong they should not be treated with the level of disdain and contempt. Slandering myself or others either based on an isolated and admitted mistake, then constantly bringing it up as "proof" of his claims that I am an instigator of any sort of conflict he has with others is behavior that only inspires destructive conflicts or edits. I have, in the past, reached out to bloodoffox to apologize and also offer assistance with other projects thinking that would mend any sort of anger and hate. This recent incident has proved me wrong and I am sad to see that it has come to this. I never wanted any conflict, just a healthy way of moving forwards to tackle fascinating and notable topics.
			::::
			::::I will admit that it is frustratingly difficult to make edits on fringe topics, I am one of those people that tried to edit some but got frustrated by the overly tight restrictions on the subject (not that I was leaning to one side as some claim I do), which is why I rarely edit on the topic and only do so when I see that there is reliable information benefiting and fitting of the standards set by Misplaced Pages. I love information, and even fringe topics have enough within Misplaced Pages's confines to exist on the site and be a fascinating read for people. I truly hope you read this bloodoffox and realize I never meant you ill or advocate for people harassing you, I want this platform to explore information correctly and efficiently, even if we do not agree with the topic. That is pretty much all that should be said on this matter and hopefully it gets resolved. ] (]) 17:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Rangeblock request to stop ban evasion by Dealer07 ==
	== 50.13.78.123 ==
			{{atop|1=Blocks fall. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{checkuser|Dealer07}}
			*{{rangevandal|62.74.24.0/21}}
			*{{rangevandal|2A02:85F:F070:E175:0:0:0:0/64}}
			The Greek vandal ] was blocked for edit-warring over nationality and ethnicity. In the past few hours, five new Greek IPs have been rapidly restoring preferred edits: ], ], ], ] and ]. I propose we engage a rangeblock rather than play whackamole on a series of single IPs. Can we block the range ]? Thanks in advance.
	{{archive top|result='''Blocked''' for 3 months by ]. Clearly not here to be constructive. ]&nbsp;]⁄] 22:15, 27 November 2012 (UTC)}}
	IP User 50.13.78.123 has been engaging in slow motion vandalism - vandalized Misplaced Pages 19 times over the last year.
			Note that the range ] was blocked very recently for the same reasons. ] (]) 06:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	"Aoirthoir" appears to refer to Aoirthoir An Broc, founder of the International Association of Masculinists,
	which this IP editor has attempted to linkspam twice.
	(Also see:
	)
			*I've blocked {{IPrange|62.74.0.0/18}} for 6 months and {{u|Ahecht}} has blocked {{IPrange|2A02:85F:F070:E175:0:0:0:0/64}} for 1 month. <b>]</b> (] • ] • ]) 07:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	User warnings:
			{{abot}}
			== Taboo of archaeologists ==
	List of all non-vandalism contributions:
			{{archivetop|This is fundamentally a content dispute, I see nothing admin-actionable here. ] (]) 10:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			This is about {{diff2|1267245598}} by {{u|Jahuah}}. They claim that an unprovenanced archaeological object is authentic. Bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss unprovenanced objects in public. It's a taboo of their profession. So, no bona fide archaeologist can give the lie to the authenticity of that object without losing their job. Since if they mention that object in public they get sacked. ] (]) 06:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Lol, reporting on me? ] (]) 06:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	In my opinion, this user is not here to improve the encyclopedia. Given the slow motion vandalism, a short block is unlikely to be effective. I suggest an administrator warning, followed by an indefinite block if the vandalism continues. --] (]) 19:28, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Give me an actual reason why the specific seal in question is not authentic? How about that? Quote me an actual scholar who does? If not, then your words mean jack. ] (]) 06:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::According to ], the claim that such object is authentic is unfalsifiable. Since it is taboo to discuss such object in public. So only biased hacks could affirm it is authentic or inauthentic without losing their jobs. ] (]) 06:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	That's not vandalism, those are brilliant additions to Misplaced Pages and greatly improved the character and interest of your site.
			:::Do you think it’s inauthentic? Or not? Please do not be wasting my time here. ] (]) 06:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::It think that claim is utterly unfalsifiable, so it cannot amount to ]. See for details {{YouTube|FYgqnlQXWjA|The Shapira Strips: What Are They and Are They Forgeries?}} by Dr. Robert R. Cargill. ] (]) 06:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Ok. Thanks for actually giving me an answer at least. ] (]) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::What exactly are you asking admins to do there? This looks to me like a content dispute. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Who, me? I’m not asking anything. I just wanted to show how a seal dated by a scholar to the 8th century is indeed an 8th century BC Israelite seal of Hoshea.
			::::::The guy up there has a problem with that and now apparently I’m on the naughty list. ] (]) 07:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::{{re|The Bushranger}} I have explained them at length why this is utterly problematic, previously. I had expected that they will behave. Misbehaving is a behavioral problem. ] (]) 07:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I think I know how to behave, thank you very much. I’m not a petulant manchild. ] (]) 07:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::See ] and ]. ] (]) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Lol, I refuted you there. All you did was attack Dr. Mykytiuk and call into question his scholarship. ] (]) 07:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Besides, what does this have to do with the Hoshea seal? ] (]) 07:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::I don't expect any of you to take my word for it, that why I had ] https://web.archive.org/web/20241209232716/https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/archaeology-today/the-problem-with-unprovenanced-objects/ Suffices to say that unprovenanced objects are ethically and juridically fishy. ] (]) 07:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::So no comment on my refutation of your petulant behavior? ] (]) 07:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Who’s “any of you” by the way? I’m one guy. ] (]) 07:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::You're (only you, not The Bushranger) promoting a claim that is unfalsifiable, unethical, and maybe even juridically problematic. ] (]) 07:18, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::Ooo, that’s a new one. ] (]) 07:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::Nope, if you had read carefully what I told you in 2024, there is nothing new about my claim. ] (]) 07:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::i can tell you’re clearly upset with me. >:). Good. You guys represent scholarship only when it suits your ideology. ] (]) 07:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::It's not about my ideology. It is about: bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss such claims in public. So no bona fide archaeologist could affirm that that object is authentic or inauthentic, because the next day they will have to flip burgers at Target. ] (]) 07:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::Fine whatever, I apologize. ] (]) 07:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Demands to prove a negative are a nonsensical and puerile debating tactic. The editor must cite evidence that the item is considered authentic, or refrain from stating so in WP's voice. Simple as that. --<span style="font-family:Courier">]</span> <small>(] · ])</small> 07:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Is the editor referring to me? ] (]) 07:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:If so, here you go. Lawrence J. Mykytiuk, Identifying Biblical Persons in Northwest Semitic Inscriptions of 1200-539 B.C.E. (Boston: Brill, 2004), 58., https://www.academia.edu/62900860/Iconography_on_Hebrew_Seals_and_Bullae_Identifying_Biblical_Persons_and_the_Apparent_Paradox_of_Egyptian_Solar_Symbols_ABSTRACT_ ] (]) 07:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Since bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss it, you win by default? ] (]) 07:22, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Elmidae, were you referring to me? ] (]) 07:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Bona fide archaeologists will lose their jobs for merely mentioning Mykytiuk's claim. ] (]) 07:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::I was talking to Elmidae. ] (]) 07:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::Yes, they were talking to you. Also both of you take a chill pill for a minute, please - this disucssion is already approaching ] levels of length from the back-and-forth above. Tgeorgescu, you don't have to ] esepecially when it's in response to other editors. Jahuah, {{tqq|i can tell you’re clearly upset with me. >:). Good.}} is not an attitude conducive to cooperative editing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::Fine, fine, I apologize. I’m just angry that my contributions to Misplaced Pages get deleted. I just wanna leave some edits and then I’ll leave this site for good. I promise. ] (]) 08:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::::I also want to make sure my contributions are kept before I leave. ] (]) 08:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:This editor appears to be edit warring across multiple pages to assert historical uncertainties as fact based on unconfirmed and speculative research from biblical archaeology blogs and the like. ] (]) 07:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Oh look, BAR society is no longer reputable because some Misplaced Pages mod said so. ] (]) 07:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::By the way, who am I edit warring with? That’s news to me. ] (]) 07:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::We don't have "mods" on Misplaced Pages. But you have only been editing for a month so it shouldn't be expected that you would know much about how Misplaced Pages works. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Hmph. I guess I’ll go then. Sorry for the trouble I caused. ] (]) 08:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::], I wasn't asking you to leave the project, just pointing out that you are a newer editor. Misplaced Pages is chockful of rules and guidelines and it's not realistic to expect new editors to be familiar with them all. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::No, no. It’s ok. It’s clear that I have caused more problems here than solved. I just hope my contributions will stay, or at least be kept until new data comes. I’ll be out of your hairs soon. ] (]) 10:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{blockquote|it's an unprovenanced object and likely a forgery it was not found in a licensed archaeological excavation it does not possess a credible chain of custody this is very much too good to be true but since people of faith want to believe it and since it's not against the law to use your free speech to make false claims like this forgers will make forgeries and antiquities dealers will put them up for sale and try to make as much money as they can but these kind of forgeries pollute legitimate biblical archaeology and it is why so many scholars myself included do not publish critical reviews of unproven objects once you give them credence their value is increased even if you put a little asterisk by them and designate them as unprovenanced and merely teach the controversy you are still giving them scholarly recognition and debate that the forger and the antiquities dealer so desperately crave publishing unprovenanced objects leads to looting and to forgeries it's that simple|Dr. Robert R. Cargill, transcript}}
			Quoted by ] (]) 08:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::], this is becoming a detailed content dispute which means it probably should be closed as off-topic for this noticeboard. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*For the record, tg's hysterical talk about disgraced archeologists flipping burgers at Target is nonsense. There is vigorous controversy about unprovenanced objects, but no one's losing their job for breaking some alleged taboo. ]] 06:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{archivebottom}}
			== HoraceAndTheSpiders ==
	Slow motion vandalism is a funny. name. Please please dont ban me! You will deprive the world of my brilliance. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:03, 27 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			{{atop|1=Attention gotten and message received. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	{{archive bottom}}
			*{{userlinks|HoraceAndTheSpiders}}
			Could someone briefly block ] to get their attention, or come up with better way to get them to read their talk page/comply with the ] restrictions. Thanks. ] (]) 11:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			* {{done}}. I've left a note on their talkpage that they will almost certainly be unblocked if they promise to keep away from ARBPIA until they are extended-confirmed. ] 11:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thanks ] (]) 11:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::: {{u|Sean.hoyland}} The editor has submitted a suitable unblock request, so I have unblocked. Please let me know if they stray into ARBPIA again. Thanks, ] 12:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== TTTEMLPBrony and continued addition of unsourced/crufty material, zero communication ==
	== Next plc ==
			{{atop|1=Blocked. Now CU-blocked. ] (]) 15:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{user|TTTEMLPBrony}} has been active since late April 2024. They have a history of adding of unsourced and sometimes controversial material. They have been messaged and warned plenty of times, including by {{u|FlightTime}}, {{u|Doniago}} and {{u|LindsayH}}, but to no avail. Better yet, they haven't responded once on their own talk page.] is required and they do not seem to be willing or able to work with others. I've issued them a warning earlier this week, but looking at their talk page, I see they've been issued stern warnings plenty of times. And despite messages about adding sources, in late December 2024 they created ], which is barely referenced. ]. ] 12:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:They may be unaware of their talkpage, even though 8 months seems a long time for that. I have blocked indefinitely, with an informative message and a link to their talkpage in the log. Unfortunately that's sometimes the only way to get the attention of a non-responsive user. ] &#124; ] 15:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
			::They know about talk pages, {{U|Bishonen}}, because they have used one at least once; i checked when i first tried to communicate with them to no avail. That being said, i think this is a good use of a block, showing we are serious when we say communication is necessary ~ ''']'''<sup>''']''']</sup> 17:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Indefinitely blocked after only 5-hours, without the user even editing during that period? For a first offence? After only warnings of the lowest level? I'm no sure why ] even created this request, as there'd been zero editing of the page in question since his talk-page warning 3 days earlier! Much of the edits seem to be merely content disputes. I don't see much repition after notification. And we don't even have rules about providing sources. There was no imminent risk of damage here, and I don't think the conditions laid out in ] have been met. And ] most certainly hasn't been met. This is an appallingly awful block ]. Can I that you reduce it to a week or less just to get attention. I'd suggest a day, but the editor is so infrequent, that they may not not notice. Though given they are moderating their behaviour based on what is posted in their talk page, even a block is barely justified. ] (]) 00:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I disagree. When an editor refuses to communicate, it's not uncommon for an admin to block until the editor responds. Even the block notice tells them {{tq|Please respond below this post and start communicating, and you may be unblocked.}} Sometimes it's a case where inexperienced editors simply don't realize that they have a talk page or that people are leaving them messages. This block gently brings it to their attention. ]&nbsp;] 00:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I see nothing in policy for an indefinite. And an indefinite block is absolutely not "gently". It's the kind of heavy-handed authoritarianism that drives the people we need away. There seemed to be edits that were a real attempt to improve Misplaced Pages. And there seemed to be changes in behaviour that were guided by the comments on the talk page. And there hadn't even been any further edits of concern since the previous warning - days ago. Sure, for Misplaced Pages warriors who frequent ANI, a block is just something you deal with; but I don't think that's how many people would see it. ] (]) 00:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Indef is "until you address the issue", not forever. ]&nbsp;] 00:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::I believe we are all aware of that. The issue is that doing so, at this stage, is completely outside of our policy, and that doing so for a minor case like this is completely outside of policy. We can't just make start doing things a different way because the admin feels like it. Our policy says that "Indefinite blocks are usually applied when there is significant disruption or threats of disruption, or major breaches of policy". The threat was neither significant (or even very recent) or a major breach of policy. I note that the user in question was only given 5 hours to respond, but after 4 hours, we'd still had no response from ], perhaps she should also have been blocked for not noticing the discussion (yeah, that's irony, not a proposal). ] (]) 06:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*TTTEMLPBrony has now responded, stating that "I have not realized that accounts have talkpages", so apparently my block worked as intended. Unfortunately, they go on to say that ], and also that they ''allowed'' the brother to use the account. Blithely they claim that "I have already dealt with him" - uh, "already"? Anyway, whether or not I believe them about the brother (I can't say I do), the account is clearly compromised, and must stay blocked. With some hesitation, I've turned the block into a softblock, so that they may create a new account, and have explained that they must absolutely not share it with anybody. I have notified the stewards in case they want to globally lock. ] &#124; ] 03:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC).
			**Just because, ], it worked, doesn't mean that you are allowed to just make up your own rules. (but yeah, sounds fishy ... on the other hand, it's probably a child). Please follow protocol, or hand over your keys. Thanks. ] (]) 06:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			***], please be more polite on these noticeboards. The block Bishonen placed was perfectly fine and it's the kind of thing admins have been doing for years. Nothing in policy forbids it, and I believe {{U|The Bushranger}}'s response is along the same lines. Besides, the editor's edit were, and I'm trying to stay polite myself, not good, as their talk page full of warnings indicates: no edit summaries, no responses, no communication, no knowledge of sourcing and sourcing requirements. Finally, I don't know how young that editor might be, but I do know that they are four years older than when {{U|Ponyo}} blocked them. ] (]) 15:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			****I've noted elsewhere that in retrospect that I look like an idiot, given what else has transpired - and that they are a sock-puppet only makes it worse for me on that. That said, in this circumstance, there is zero support in policy for an indefinite. An indefinite should not be the starting point of a block, especially for an infrequent editor. That policy has been broken before "for years" doesn't make it okay. Fix the policy if you think that's what should be happening. I don't see any impoliteness here. {{abot}}
			== Jypian gaming extended confirmed ==
	I am concerned about the edits of ] to the article on ]. He is insisting on refering to a profit forcast of around £630 million for the financial year 2012. I suspect he is an employee of the company. The company's latest official profit forecast as disclosed in the Telegraph of 1 August 2012 suggests profits of "between £575m and £620m". My concerns are:
			{{atop
			| status = Sock blocked
			| result = I've run out of sock puns, sorry. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 17:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)<br>
	* Wiki is an encyclopedia - its articles should be factual not predictions of financial performance
			]
	* If this new higher forecast is genuine insider information then its disclosure through wiki rather than through the London Stock Exchange is an offence
			Sock blocked. ]]
	* If on the other hand the forecast is not genuine, then the comment is creating a false market in the company's shares which is also illegal
			}}
			*{{userlinks|Jypian}}
			On ], the user is making pointless edits after having been here for exactly thirty days. Clearly gaming extended confirmed. ]&nbsp;]&nbsp;&nbsp;''<sup style="font-family:Times New Roman">]</sup>'' 12:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	I have reverted the inclusion of the profit forecast and at least one other editor has done the same. I think the article needs some sort of protection. Thanks. ] (]) 22:55, 27 November 2012 (UTC)		:I been making real edits since I created my account please take your time to check and I’m sorry for purposely pointless edits for extended confirmed on Day 30. I’m a real and genuine user I just wanted early access to work and edit on important stuff] (]) 13:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::For what reason are you doing this? ] (]) 13:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	: I don't see significant enough disruption that is not already being contained. The only type of "protection" for the article would be full-protect, which would prohibit everyone but admins from editing (by the way, page protection is usually done ]. Properly cited material wins - and that's according to ] (]''']''']) 23:52, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			::The thing is, articles that only extended confirmed users can edit are like that for a reason. What kinds of {{tq|important stuff}} were you planning on working on? ]&nbsp;]&nbsp;&nbsp;''<sup style="font-family:Times New Roman">]</sup>'' 13:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Thanks for your contribution. I agree that properly cited material wins but the forecast of £630m is not cited - and its disclosure may be an offence. ] (]) 00:00, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::Donald Trump Hotel Accident ] (]) 13:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Considering you've admitted you've gaming the system you need to voluntary agree to refrain from editing anything that requires EC until you've made 500 real edits. The permission will be removed if you don't follow this. I'd also suggest stay away from the Donald Trump hotel article until you've gotten at least a few thousand edits under your belt since being so desperate to edit an article is usually a sign once you do start editing you'll get into trouble. ] (]) 14:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I have revoked their extended-confirmed permission. They may re-request it from ] after making 500 legitimate edits. —]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;•&nbsp;]) 14:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Im going to edit Donald Trump hotel accident, whatever you want it or not😡 ] (]) 14:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::If you create alternative accounts to try and bypass your primary account's restrictions, you will end up being banned. ]] 14:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::It's unnecessary to threaten or to evade restrictions; you can propose edits via ]. If they are nonsense, though, expect to be blocked as well. ] (]) 14:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Blocked'''. Blocked as a sock by {{u|NinjaRobotPirate}}. ] &#124; ] 15:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
			*:That makes sense. ] (]) 15:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Thanks for the action NinjaRobotPirate. ]&nbsp;]&nbsp;&nbsp;''<sup style="font-family:Times New Roman">]</sup>'' 15:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*<small>As an aside, is it possible to take away the EC permission before it is achieved or otherwise prevent it being automatically gained? I said what I said above because I incorrectly thought they hadn't yet achieved EC. Given this I thought either an admin would need to watch out for them (unless there's an admin bot which can do this) or they could voluntary refrain from using their EC and this wouldn't be necessary. But I checked after and realised I was wrong about them not gaining EC and I'm wondering if I could be wrong about the removal of EC before it's automatically gained. ] (]) 16:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
			*:I think it's possible to prevent an account from obtaining EC by granting and immediately revoking it. That apparently stops the account from getting it automatically because it has obtained EC before. ] (]) 16:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Interesting, thanks. Useful to know for the future. ] (]) 17:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Footballnerd2007 ==
	::: If you truly believe that the edit in question constitutes a ''criminal offence'' then the appropriate party to contact is the local constabulary, not the administrators' noticeboard. In the absence of legal counsel, we typically do not assume that the editing of any information on Misplaced Pages to add or alter figures without an appropriate citation violates the law. To do so would be utterly impractical. There are certainly issues with Matt smith987's contributions to said article, but they should be pursued on the talk page first. Thus far, there is nothing on the article talk and only boilerplate warnings on the user talk. ] (]) 02:33, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			{{atop
	::::Just for information, this contains Next's most recent profit guidance, and it says "''We now expect Group profit before tax to be in the range £590m to £620m''". Since then, analysts have been forecasting between £605m and £618m. So the "£630m" claim looks unsourceable to me, and if it keeps being added without a good source then some admin action might be needed - but I'd suggest a discussion on the talk page should be the next port of call, stating what sources actually say. -- ] (]) 10:27, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			| result = This is going nowhere fast. Whether or not {{u|Footballnerd2007}} is using an LLM to respond to conversations, they've promised to stay out of other editors' userspace drafts, been notified they shouldn't start RfAs for other editors without speaking to them, and said that they would be more careful with moves. (On that note, I can't warn Footballnerd2007 to not close RM discussions, but I'd highly recommend they avoid doing so until they become more acquainted with community norms.) ] (]/]) 22:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Also, what really didn't help was people reverting all of his additions when it was only the profit forecast that was problematic - it was easy enough to just take that bit out, as someone has now done. -- ] (]) 10:48, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			}}
			I need a second pair of eyes on {{user|Footballnerd2007}} please - apparently a new editor, but they have been closing RM discussions - including one where they introduced a typo, see ] which I have fixed - and they have also been messing around moving my user space pages (see ]) and they have also created ]. None of this is the action of a new editor and my Spidey senses are tingling. ]] 19:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Boring sock ] ==
	{{resolved|blocked by ] '''] ]''' 01:12, 28 November 2012 (UTC)}}		:I don't see an urgent or intractable issue here. Unless/until stronger evidence comes up, I'm going to ] that they're trying to help and suggest ]. ] (]) 19:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'd like to clarify a point in your message. The statement "and they have also been messing around moving my user space pages (see ])" should be corrected. I have only moved one page, not multiple pages. Please adjust the wording to reflect this accurately. ] • ] ⚽ 19:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	Hi. Please kill this sock. ] -] (]) 00:13, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Thanks. Must say, the sockmaster is at ]. -] (]) 01:15, 28 November 2012 (UTC)		:::A response like that is not helping with my suspicions and concerns. ]] 20:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::What exactly am I being accused of? ] • ] ⚽ 20:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You are either an extremely over enthusiastic new editor making mistakes - in which case you need to slow down a lot, and listen ASAP - or you are a sock trying to be clever. ]] 20:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::The former is rather accurate. ] • ] ⚽ 20:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::{{u|GiantSnowman}}, if you have evidence, then the appropriate forum is ]. If you don't, then you're liable to get hit with a boomerang for ]/], even if you end up happening to be correct. ] (]) 21:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::And what would my boomerang punishment be? ]] 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::How do I go about making a complaint against him for violating ]/]? ] • ] ⚽ 21:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Response'''
			Hello GiantSnowman,
	== Admin attention needed at Talk:John Todd (occultist) and Talk:Gail Riplinger ==
			Thank you for raising these concerns. I'd like to address the points you mentioned:
	{{userlinks|AnthonyMark00}}
	{{userlinks|Ian.thomson}}
			1. '''Botched Page Moves:''' Regarding the page moves, I made an attempt to improve the accuracy and consistency of article titles based on my understanding of the situation. I acknowledge that there was a typo introduced, which I appreciate being pointed out, and I have since corrected it. I’ll be more careful in the future to ensure that such errors do not occur.
	AnthonyMark00 has done nothing but made combative posts, making about ("Or you can go sabo his page as well!") () and ("none of them are Christian!"), , and insulting other editors. He's also about users. He's also , and .
			2. '''Messing with User Space Draft:''' I apologise for any disruption caused to your user space draft. My intention was never to interfere with your content. I recognise that user space is personal, and I will be mindful to avoid making any uninvited changes moving forward.
	He has been trying to push a pro-] POV, as can be seen at ] and ].
			3. '''Creation of an RFA for Cyberdog958''': As for the RFA for Cyberdog958, I stand by my decision to create it. I believed that Cyberdog958 hads demonstrated the necessary qualities for adminship and could be a positive asset to the community. There was no ill intent behind my actions. The RFA was made based on a genuine belief that they were qualified, and I will continue to support nominations that I feel are appropriate based on the contributions and behavior I observe.
	When one of his edits to an article was reverted, instead of even trying to consider my reasons, he (), .
			I hope this clears up any misunderstandings. I strive to make constructive contributions and act in good faith, and I appreciate your understanding.
	He often .
			] • ] ⚽ 20:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	] and ] were pointed out to him repeatedly. ] and ] were explained repeatedly. He has no excuse for his behavior.
			:RFA - why didn't you discuss with the editor first? ]] 20:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	My initial treatment was though , but as his combative arrogance continued, I have not been able to react calmly. I don't care if I get a few day's block for , as long as it it is made perfectly clear to him that his behavior is inappropriate.
			::I wasn't aware there was a requirement to do so. I did notify them! ] • ] ⚽ 20:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::''Before'' you made the RFA??? No. ]] 20:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I wasn’t pinged about this ANI, but I found it through the RFA message on my talk page. I guess I appreciate the thought, if it was coming from a sincere place, but I would have declined the nomination if I was asked. I’ve never come across this user or interacted with them in any way until now so I’m not sure why they picked me. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:46, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Footballnerd2007, given that Cyberdog958 has confirmed that they have never interacted with you, please confirm how you found them to nominate them for RFA?
			::Similarly, how did you this afternoon, as I similarly have never heard of or interacted with you before today? ]] 21:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{u|Footballnerd2007}} thank you for trying to help out, and I'm sorry that GiantSnowman has chosen to escalate this in the way that he has. Page moves can be tricky, and you might want to sit back and watch the process for a while before participating in it yourself. Regarding RFA, it's a serious decision that people usually mull over for years before they finally agree to submit their names, so it's going to be more than a little jarring to have someone else do it on one's behalf. With the user space, it seems you understand the issue so there's no need to retread that. Going forward, I suggest taking things slow and asking for help whenever you think about entering a new area. I've been doing this for a few years now, and I still reach out to someone with experience in the area if I think I want to try something new! ] (]) 21:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{u|Footballnerd2007}}, the response that you made at 20:08 has formatting that I have only seen before from AI, never from a human editor. Was it made with an LLM? If so please talk to us in your own words. ] (]) 21:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Yes, I have the feeling that a lot of this editor's comments are AI produced. ]] 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I refer you to ]. ] • ] ⚽ 21:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Thanks for that link - I see therefore that other users have raised concerns with you only yesterday about your RM/discussion closes, and yet you have continued to make poor closes today. Why is that? Why therefore should we trust you when you say you won't do it again, given you have done it again? ]] 21:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yesterday I didn't say I wouldn't do it again, today I have, albeit reluctantly, changed my position for the sake of keeping the peace. ] • ] ⚽ 21:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Why did you continue to make the same questionable edits that other editors have previously queried with you? Unless you are deliberately trying to be disruptive? ]] 21:46, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Transparently LLM output. ] (]) 21:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yet they deny using Chat GPT. So either it's ''not'' LLM (and multiple users have raised these suspicions, which I share) and just very odd language, or they are a liar. Which is it? ]] 21:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::What unsubjctive hard evidence do you have to support that allegation? ] • ] ⚽ 21:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I pulled 11 random AI detectors from Google. Of them, seven give a 100% AI rating. One gives 50% and the 3 others give 0%. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The final 3 are 100% accurate. ] • ] ⚽ 21:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::And the 7 others? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I have no explanation. ] • ] ⚽ 21:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Because there is none - it's absolutely AI generated, you don't need a detector for that. While not against policy, it's heavily frowned upon, as it's not ''your'' words but the LLM's. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::And given that you have ''repeatedly'' denied use LLM, you are a liar and cannot be trusted. ]] 21:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I have repeatedly denied using ''ChatGPT'' because I didn't, that's not a lie and you have no evidence to suggest to the contrary. ] • ] ⚽ 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::But you have been using a LLM of some kind, yes? ]] 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::No comment. ] • ] ⚽ 21:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::We'll take that as a 'yes' then - and that you therefore have not been truthful. The tiny modicum of AGF I had has now fully disappeared. ]] 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::So you're accusing me of lying now? As I have said before, I didn't use ChatGPT. ] • ] ⚽ 21:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Yes, I am accusing you of lying. ]] 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::That's a serious allegation, what evidence do you have that I use ChatGPT? ] • ] ⚽ 21:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::: is Exhibit A. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::{{ec}}I'm pretty sure there's LLMs that aren't ChatGPT. But if you're saying "I didn't use a LLM/AI generator at all", then that is . - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::And if you're trying to be clever by saying "I use LLM but not ChatGPT", your comments here have been disingenuous and misleading. You are digging yourself a hole. ]] 21:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I never made any comment about LLMs in general. ] • ] ⚽ 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Please answer this direct question - have you used LLM? If so, why didn't you own up to that when asked? ]] 21:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively. ] • ] ⚽ 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::🤦‍♂️ ] (]) 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::{{ec}}So that's "yes" then, got it. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::] applies (even if only an essay). ]] 22:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::You're not helping your case right now. Even if you're getting dogpiled (''especially'' if you're getting dogpiled) you need to speak clearly and directly. You'll gain far more goodwill by saying you're using an LLM and agreeing to stop. ] (]) 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Thebiguglyalien, do you now understand why my red flags were flagging earlier? There is something off about this editor. ]] 22:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::I don't disagree with your analysis. I disagree with the way you approached it. ] (]) 22:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::A fair criticism. ]] 22:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::I'm sure you've had to deal with this sort of thing far more than I have, so I get that. My philosophy is just that I'd rather give dozens of "cases" that extra chance if it means salvaging one well-meaning productive editor. ] (]) 22:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::Which is what I usually try and do, but the alarm bells just really rang here, and I simply wanted a second pair of eyes on the contribs to tell me "yes it's fishy" or "no you're thinking too much". I did not envision this discussion! ]] 22:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully. ] • ] ⚽ 22:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::Stop choosing your words carefully. I'm trying to give you a chance that isn't often afforded to new editors here, and you're trying to ], which is also against the rules. ] (]) 22:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::{{ec}}Here's the deal - either you used AI, or you {{tqq| my words very carefully}} in a way that is how AI distinctively chooses them. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Here's 4 more AI detectors. Two give 100%, one says 11% (literally the last two sentences), and the other gives 50%. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 22:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Which AI detectors are you using? ] • ] ⚽ 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== possible hoaxes ==
	]. I created ], I overhauled ] and ], I have caught many of the sockpuppets of ], ], and ]; I have contributed a fair amount to discussions at ], ], ], and ]; and I have removed plenty of vandalism at ] and ].
	He has contributed nothing positive, only grief and annoyance.
			*{{user|Emilioveh}}
	I cannot see how this can be allowed to continue. ] (]) 03:11, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			*{{user|Emnoé}}
			*{{user|Larissæ}}
			*{{user|Miguelinor}}
			*{{user|Nose236}}
			The above accounts that have been for creating articles with unverifiable references or with scarce references taken out of context. I recommend reviewing all the articles that these accounts have created here as they may be hoaxes.--] (]) 04:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:As a note, you don't appear to have notified any of these editors about this section, which is something you need to do when you open a section on this noticeboard. - ] (]) 05:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I've notified all the users about this possible hoax issue already. Suggest any action from administrators if possible. ] (]) 05:30, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Fair enough, that's a valid notion, Fontaine347. Feel free to do so! ] 12:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Edit warring to prevent an RFC ==
	Well that is a completly one sided view. And I imagine from the last few messages Ian sent to me he must have felt he needed to get this in first! But I find it quite sad especially the facts that he is leaving out, what ACTUALLY happened yesterday. Like people not bothering to leave the reason for revisions on the talk page and what I thought was people just ignoring obvious errors that had been made setting up the article. And refusing to even respond to me (which I'm sure he did) because I am new to the site.
			@] has removed an RFC tag from ] now within .
			] provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list.
	Yes I got angry! And wrote some passionate things! But at no time was I disrespectful to anyone personally (until AFTER I was personally attacked). And I certainly did not use any foul language or Charracter assasinations. The previous disagreements can be found on the relevant pages. Which I will also point out is where you will find the resolution that was put in place by an administrator.
			We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an ] problem or a ] that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm ''not'' saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in ''some'' cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute.
	I respect this site.. But I respect myself more! So I am not going to allow this to be turned on me. Your decision is of course your own. But as you have noticed I had abided by the rules (dispite after the warnings they were being broken by others) And then today when I was working on a completly seperate article when I noticed some feedback left by him in regards to the changes I was suggesting.
			I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the ]. See you tomorrow. ] (]) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	I responded to him civily, to which he replied a direct statement on my charracter (assasination) by refferring to a passage in the bible. So I defended myself in the same manner! Which seemed to upset him. Until it eventually came to the point where I had to tell him I would refuse to respond as I felt he was targeting me regardless of whatever I do or write.
			:As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC.
	And the evidence of this is that he can be found attacking me for the edit I suggested on the John todd article, but elsewhere he can be found saying to others that he has no problem with the changes!?!
			:I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith.
			:The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. ] (]) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. ] (]) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{u|Axad12}}, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have ''absolutely no'' conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. ] (]) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{u|Axad12}}, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. {{u|WhatamIdoing}}, a {{tl|trout}} for ]ing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template.
			::::The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. ] (]) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be ''falsely accused'' of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that {{tpq|exceptionally serious abuse}}? ] (]) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request.
			:I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request).
			:As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. ] (]) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? ] (]) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content.
			:::Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. ] (]) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::"Asking a second time" is not ]. ] (]) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. ] (]) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the ]. See, e.g., {{xt|An editor ''gaming the system'' is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support.}} Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy.
			::::::I also direct your attention to the item that says {{xt|Gaming the system may include...]ing the consensus-building process}}. ] (]) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to ], which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. ] (]) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not {{tq|highly misleading}}.
			:::I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. ] (]) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? ] (]) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. ] (]) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved.
			::I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. ] (]) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when ] can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one ] book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer.
			:::But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my ] experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. ] (]) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself.
			::::It isn't really relevant here but actually I ''didn't'' expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. ] (]) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor ] with {{u|Graywalls}}, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article.
	So not only has he started the SAME argument we were BOTH warned against yesterday, but because we know that it's not down to the content of my work, that then makes it a campaign of harassment!
			Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue.
	Thank you
	] (]) 03:56, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (]) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative.
	:Do you have any ] to provide any evidence? Just go to ], click "diff" next to my revisions, copy the link and place it between <nowiki></nowiki>. ] (]) 04:03, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			'''Proposal''': Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and ], Axad12 and Graywalls should be ] from the Breyers article and its talk page.
	I wouldnt know how to do that right now. I would tell you whats mine there. But I'm sure you will understand why I wont!
	] (]) 04:19, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Thank you for proving all my descriptions of you. I explained how to provide diffs, you ignored my explanation, allowing you to pretend you've got an excuse to refuse to provide evidence for your accusations. ] (]) 04:23, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. ] (]) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	And I think the fact you are now hunting down my edits, speaks for itself!
			**You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	] (]) 04:24, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			*:'''Oppose''': I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard.
	:That there's anything to hunt down doesn't speak louder? Presenting ] of the editor's post in question is the standard means of presenting evidence. ] (]) 04:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			*:I have not {{tq|ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate}}, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them.
			*:Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024.
			*:I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make.
			*:Also, the idea that I made a {{tq|hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC}} is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect.
			*:I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time.
			*:Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at ], but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. ] (]) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. , because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see ] for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling ]. {{re|Aoidh}} also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see ] ] (]) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	See what I mean? Not even here can you leave me alone!
	] (]) 04:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC)		*:Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. ] (]) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			==Complaint against ]==
	:Making accusations without evidence against the person that reported you here is not likely to win you any support. The case against you has been made with diffs that appear to support the claims being made. I very strongly suggest you reconsider your refusal to provide diffs to support your side of the argument. In addition, if I may comment on the substance of the dispute, you really should read and understand ] and also the policy on ]. The sources you appear to be using are not likely to meet these requirements, IMHO. Instead of hurling abuse around at those you disagree with, you would be better advised to chill out and try to remember that Misplaced Pages is a collaborative effort. Continuing to abuse other editors here is likely to earn you a block. - ] ] 04:38, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			{{Notice|1=See ] below. |heading=This complaint has been withdrawn.}}
			<s> Good Morning,
			I am writing to formally lodge a complaint against ] for repeated violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on personal attacks (]) and casting aspersions (]) during a .
	::Anthony, you need to stop. Period. Leave Ian (and Sean Hoyland, for that matter) alone. Leave those two articles alone. Go work on something else that's totally unlike those subjects. Better yet, go read some of the various policies that have been linked to you. The two Nick Thorne have linked would be a great start. I don't think you understand how Misplaced Pages works; a lot of what's gone wrong here is because of that, and that's okay. But now, you need to stop editing until you do understand. I also don't think you're able to edit neutrally on this subject, and I think that continuing to try will only get you in deeper trouble. You started out this whole thing by claiming that there's some sort of at work, and things only went downhill from there. Ian got a little too heated in some of his replies with you, but nowhere, ''nowhere'', has he made the kind of statements you're saying he did. He's not stalking you, either. You need to take a step back and look at what you're doing; right now, you're not seeing straight. If you can't stop, then blocks are the next step. (Indeed, I'd consider a block now, but I'm not gonna do it myself; I've entangled myself in this more than enough already, I think.)
			Throughout the interaction, GiantSnowman has engaged in behavior that appears to contravene Misplaced Pages's behavioral guidelines, including but not limited to:
	::Ian, FWIW, I think you might benefit from a break from these topics for a day or two; you seem to have gotten a bit emotionally invested in them. But that's totally up to you; I wouldn't consider anything like an official "reprimand" or whatever. I personally think your behavior has not been outstanding: probably should have left well enough alone at ], for example, and calling people (NOT AnthonyMark, but the subject of the article) "" and "" is not a good way to make your point, even though both those labels are supported by the article and the points you're trying to make are valid. But, I'd say you haven't behaved horribly either, given the vitriol. You started out a bit too snarky, perhaps (cf. the charlatan diff), and you lost your cool a bit at the end there, but it's understandable. ] ]] 05:45, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			'''Casting aspersions without evidence:'''
			* GiantSnowman repeatedly accused me of engaging in disruptive behavior, suggesting ulterior motives without providing any verifiable evidence.
			* For instance, accusations of using ] to generate responses without concrete proof.
			* Statements like “You are a liar and cannot be trusted” and other similar assertions lack civility and violate the principle of ].
			'''Aggressive tone and unwarranted accusations:'''
	Hi Writ
			* The user's tone throughout the discussion has been hostile, escalating to direct personal attacks:
			* Referring to me as a “liar” multiple times.
			* Suggesting that I have been “deliberately disruptive” without presenting any factual basis.
			'''Violation of ] and ]:'''
	Were back here again, same place we were yesterday! So nothing has changed for me!
			* Misplaced Pages encourages editors to respond constructively to newcomers' efforts. However, GiantSnowman’s behavior has been dismissive and accusatory, discouraging participation and creating a hostile editing environment.
	So again I will agree with you.
			As an administrator, GiantSnowman is expected to set an example by adhering to Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies and fostering a collaborative environment. However, their actions in this instance fall far short of the standards expected of administrators, which further exacerbates the seriousness of this issue.
	But below is the reply I just spent a couple of houts putting together. So you can ignore that and we can take it from here.
			I understand that discussions can sometimes be contentious, but I believe there is no justification for violating ] or ]. I respectfully request that administrators review the linked discussion and take appropriate action to address this behavior.
			If any additional information or clarification is needed, I am happy to provide it. My intent is to ensure a respectful and collaborative editing environment for all Misplaced Pages contributors.
	So my ability to defend myself is based on my technical capability to use the site? What I mean is everything I have mentioned can be found on page & the page. And so if what I said is true, Would your not be interested unless I link to it correctly?
			Thank you for your time and consideration. </s>
	And what sources Nick? As stated this has actually been resolved. All this is about is if Ian is allowed to continue to harass me or not!, which I think has been more than established here.
			] • ] ⚽ 12:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	Also this does not demonstrate my point if you look . It does not show you what I was talking about. As before this point people were undoing the changes to the article and not putting that information on the talk page. But my own page.. which somehow got deleted.
			:The discussion I raised was at ], now closed. I raised concerns about this editor, who has (in brief) - undertake botched and inappropriate RM closures; re-factored other editor's talk page posts; randomly nominated another user with whom they have never interacted before for RFA; and messing with my user space draft. None of that was the conduct of a new editor here to learn the ropes, and I wanted a second pair of eyes.
	But is where I realised I hadnt been actually reading their responses.. But by that time things were already said and heated.
			:In the course of that discussion, it became highly suspect to multiple users that this user has been editing with LLM. They denied using Chat GPT and, when questioned further, refused to answer. That is why I said this user is a liar and cannot be trusted, and I stand by that assertion. ]] 12:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Pinging other editors who were involved in that ANI discussion or have posted concerns/advice on this user's talk page - {{ping|Liz|voorts|Folly Mox|Tiggerjay|Extraordinary Writ|Tarlby|The Bushranger|Thebiguglyalien|Cyberdog958}} - think that is everyone, apologies if not. ]] 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thank you for your speedy response. Now let other admins add their point of view. ] • ] ⚽ 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Given the closed section above - which was closed for a very good reason - I'd suggest that coming back to this page to complain and using an LLM to do it is a ''spectacularly'' bad idea. The community only has limited patience when dealing with editors who are causing timesinks for other edits, and I suspect that the section above was your limit. ] 12:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. ] • ] ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::] is worth reviewing. It may already be too late for you to withdraw your complaint, but it's probably worth an attempt. --] (]) 12:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{ec}}Please, any passing uninvolved admin, block the OP now. Not least for using an LLM to generate a complaint that someone accused them of using ] to generate responses. Enough of our time has been wasted. ] (]) 12:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Again, this is mere conjecture. ] • ] ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Continuing to deny the obvious - especially when Tarlby ran your posts through multiple LLM checkers - is really not helping your case. For me, it shows you are not here in good faith and that you absolutely cannot be trusted. ]] 12:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::No, it's called people have eyes. Using LLMs this way is highly disrespectful and frankly disruptive. Boomerang block for ] seems appropriate. ] (]) 12:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::+1 to Phil Bridger. What struck me in the prior thread, over and over again, was how repeatedly evasive he was. "I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT..." "I never made any comment about LLMs in general." "I have no explanation." "Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully." "Which AI detectors are you using?" "The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively." And so on, and so on, and so on. Footballnerd2007 has been given chance after chance to answer plainly, without Wikilawyering or weasel-wording, and has instead stuck to the tactic of deflect, deflect, deflect. I don't know where Footballnerd2007 got the notion that the Fifth Amendment was the law of the land on Misplaced Pages, and that no boomerang can touch him as long as he admits to nothing. Let's just disabuse him of the notion. ] 12:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Retaliatory BS; this should be closed immediately. ] ] 12:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== CBAN proposal ===
	And then after that But something is missing there as you can see Writ was responding to me. It was along the lines of "oh".. As I did read the guidlines but I thought as they are the sole printers & have been for over 10 years & that her book is also their biggest seller made it an obvious exception (that is also included in the guidelines).
			* I propose a ''']''' for Footballnerd2007, appealable no sooner than six months from now (and then once per year thereafter), alongside a ban on using LLM's which would remain in effect until specifically contested. At the time of writing, Footballnerd2007 has only 142 edits, a ''significant'' number of which are right here at WP:ANI. They are clearly a massive ] time sink. I urged Footballnerd2007 to withdraw this complaint and warned about ] and that clearly didn't land. I think it's time for everyone else to get back to regular editing. --] (]) 12:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*'''Support''', obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. ]] 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. ] • ] ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? ] 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. ]] 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::I'll respond to this in depth later today. ] • ] ⚽ 13:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::I concede that I've been backed into a corner and now I need to do the right thing, stop with the defensive act and own up to my mistakes which I'll do in my statement later this afternoon. ] • ] ⚽ 13:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. ] (]) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::::I had my legal head on with the philosophy "defend until you can no more" - I now concede on reflection this is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages and that my actions were not the right way to go and for that I will take full responsibility in my statement. ] • ] ⚽ 13:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::It's too late to withdraw now. You have to take responsibility for your behaviour. ] (]) 13:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*{{ec}}<s>'''Support'''</s> - on top of what's been posted on this thread, FN2007 has ] by archiving without a link to the archive on the fresh talk page, without responding to ]. They also ] to add things they didn't say when closing a RM discussion, and haven't responded ]. These things alongside their LLM use (and subsequent wikilawyering "technically I only said I didn't use ''ChatGPT''" responses), refusal to listen to good advice, and everything else in this topic, I think a community ban would be a good idea. ]&nbsp;] 13:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC) ''Update'' - striking support for cban, I think footballnerd's recent responses and CNC's offer of mentorship indicate that we may be able to avoid it. ]&nbsp;] 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. ] • ] ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? ]] 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::I will go back and thank her for that. Because I had been advised that your actions could have violated WP policy and thought it would be a good way to deflect the blame, in heinsight it was absolutely the wrong course of action. I would like to draw a line under this whole sorry situation and move on with the reason that I joined once my statement has been published and the subsequent discussion has concluded. ] • ] ⚽ 14:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:(another {{ec}} To clarify, I don't think Footballnerd is doing anything malicious or deliberately trying to time-waste. I think they are a misguided new bold editor who unfortunately doesn't listen to advice and is stubborn to self-reflect. If this cban goes ahead I urge them to appeal in 6 months with a better understanding of how wikipedia works, with a more cautious editing style and more acceptance of community opinions. ]&nbsp;] 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::I am not being malicious, there was only one motivation for my actions - wanting to help.
			*:*::My comments on this and the above thread have been ill judged.
			*:*::As for the ban, I'd like to ask that I be spared at this moment in time in view of my above comments and the concession statement that I will be posting when I return home. ] • ] ⚽ 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... ]] 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::Because I'm posting from my phone and I'm not at home. When I return to my PC later today I'll make the statement. ] • ] ⚽ 14:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*'''Support CBAN'''. Using a chatbot to generate discussion then denying it when called out is already deeply contemptuous. Turning around and filing a chatbot generated revenge report for people not believing your lies about not using a chatbot? Words fail. ] (]) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. ] • ] ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. ]] 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. ] • ] ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. ]] 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::::Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. ] • ] ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*::::::Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. ]] 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:::::::I admit that I did, I just saw the line of "I didn't use ChatGPT" as an easy 'get out of jail card'. ] • ] ⚽ 14:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:{{a note}} for ], just to inform you there is a ] that you may not have seen. I was about to send generic pings to !voters of this section, but it appears all other editors are aware of this proposal already (or voted afterwards at least). This isn't intended to influence your decision, only to provide you updated information. ] (]) 23:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' as this behavior is clearly ]. ] (]) 15:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' CBAN as this editor has caused a monumental waste of the volunteer time of other editors, which is our most precious commodity. This is an encyclopedia, not a robot debating society. ] (]) 18:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. First choice would be an indefinite block. Despite the user's sudden acts of contrition, I don't trust them. I don't see them as an asset to the project. As for their recent statement that some think is AI-generated, my ''guess'' is it's a mixture, maybe we should call it AI-assisted. However, I wouldn't support an indefinite block if it were just that. What preceded the complaint by GS and their conduct at ANI was egregiously disruptive.--] (]) 18:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' - I say give them some rope. There is good discussion going on below, and I don't think anything is gained by blocking an editor who does at times add value. We can always revisit this later - and presumably the action would then be quick and obvious. BTW, I thought we all used AI to some extent - certainly when I misspell words like "certainyl" I then accept the AI in chrome changing the spelling. Or even improving the grammar if I turn on those options. Also ]'s numerous draft articles in his userspace always confounds me. I've asked them before to write these articles in draft-space where there can be a collaborative effort, rather than their userspace where they won't let anyone else edit. ] (]) 00:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Haven't voted in this proposal yet, am abstaining for now per trying to avoid advocacy as potential mentor. The two points I will however question is: would a CBAN solve these issues or postpone them until a later date? Would a 1–2 month mentorship more likely bring about the results of reform or failure much sooner? If we want to talk about ] as we have do so, it might be worth ] the time wasted in not mentoring a newish editor into the folds of the encyclopedia. ] (]) 00:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			===MENTOR proposal===
	Looking over everything I see now it was the way I dealt with it & that I didnt try to reach any kind of understanding. But at that point I had found comments he was writing about me. Which only made things worse.
			{{quote|] commitments to uphold by ] for a suggested one–two month period. Mentor: ].
			# Abide by all policies and guidelines and ] to advise given to you by other editors.
	And I should also point out because I had not seen the responses just the work being undone I was upset as it seemed to me the rules say you have to make the notes in the talk page right? It seemed like no one was even bothering with that & just changing it back. I was writing why I'm changing it, then they were changing it back again without a word.
			# No page moves (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval from mentor.
			# No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it.
	But you can see some people where responding to me on the talk page about YouTube videos?!
			# No more dishonesty, being evasive, or using AI of any kind in discussions due to laziness.
	When I was only talking about a YouTube video of a recording of JT affirming his faith. And how that is the last instance of him speaking in public about his faith which (and I was proven right) the evidence for is wrong!
			# Avoid commenting on all admin noticeboards (unless summoned). If there is a problem, seek advise from mentor.
			# Avoid reverting other editors (either manually, part or in full), unless obvious vandalism.
	Look I know about the Good faith guidelines. But Wiki is meant to be a site where if you see what you believe is an error that you can correct it! Which is why I am here! You guys cant expect everyone to agree with you.. Although I realise it must be a team effort.
	But everything is
	You can see that I had no problem with people treating me respectfully! And that should have been the end of it. But as you can see even when Writ asked him to stop he did not! Then I got a personal message that lead me too me to his page, with him saying all manner of things about me.
	I didnt realise it's like facebook & that people can write whatever they liked about others on their page, is that right? (I can see he has now deleted it)And what made it worse was that I had been told if I was to respond to the abuse I was getting then I would be blocked. So I was in the twisted situation (as you can see where he was writing personal abuse towards me, and I was instructed to take it?!)
	But even after that (and some I left & walked away.
	And now today, if you look under
	I find some very negative feedback from him on the changes I suggested about the main title of the article being still unchanged. I decided I would be best to inform him that I had already discussed this with someone, then I realised that he had already agreed to the changes!
	At that point I was confused & hoping that this had not turned to a personal vendetta. But you can see that after my very reasonable responses(which he and others had already agreed to). He made a passing comment on the article and then implied I was a .. And as you would have seen by now it is not the first time.
	After that I realised what was going on and tried again to Until I had to refuse to respond to him.
	And we have the twisted situation where having suffered abuse, it is ME defending myself. Against something that I have defended myself from already!?
	Now I was looking for this as he is right something should be done. As you can see from the comments even on this thread! Whith him (asking nicley) what my changes are only to then reveal the true line of his questioning.
	Now having written all of this I will say that looking back though the notes I admit I was a hard ass. But also that I did not come here with a preconception of bad faith in you all. But it was down to what I thought was people ignoring me and being egotistical, and the fact I was spending time to do research just to see it get taken down without a word to me that got me angry. As I explained before I felt that was unfair.. Which I already admitted was down to my own ignorance.
	And after writing this essay I'm ready to finish with the site. So my life will go on. But what has happened since then & the way Ian has acted & disregarded direct instructions more than once.. Has been disgraceful!
	If you allow him to act like this. After repeated warnings, flagrantly saying things like "I dont care if I get in trouble". Then you will letting yourselves down & literally lowering the website to the standards that you claim to be far away from! Such as sites like Twitter & YouTube!
	] (]) 06:55, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	----
	*NOTE As stated im done with this! I accept whatever judgement! Now it's 7am and I have to go to work :( And yes Wiki was worth it.. But I NEVER want to go through this again!
	] (]) 07:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:(Edit conflict) It is highly disrespectful of other editors' time to expect them to wade through a lengthy discussion to try and work out just what statement(s) you are complaining about. The onus is on you to be clear and concise. This last post reads like a rambling rant and it is very hard to understand exactly what you are trying to say. Those who are experienced here have seen these types of replies to allegations before and that experience has shown that often the ones who indulge in such tactics do have a case to answer, regardless of what others may or may not have done or said. The best advice to you is, if you have a valid case to put, use diffs (instructions for this are at the top of this page) and be short and to the point. Oh, and recognise and admit the errors in your own conduct first.
	:BTW, you appear to be under some serious misaprehensions about how Misplaced Pages works. It is not "meant to be a site where if you see what you believe is an error that you can correct it". What we are meant to be doing is writing an encyclopaedia. That means that we are '''not''' conducting ], what we "know" is irrelevant. What matters is what the reliable sources say and there are very strict rules about sources, especially in controversial topics or on ]. You really do need to take a step back and understand the principles here before you continue, otherwise you may find yourself on the receiving end of an enforced holiday from editing Misplaced Pages.
	:You will never have to go through this again if you simply follow the rules and be civil to to other editors, no matter what provocation you perceive. - ] ] 07:31, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Agreed with Nick on basically every point he makes. Personal beliefs are addressed at ], which I suggest Anthony read. We are primarily an ], which is supposed to present information in accord with encyclopedic standards. It is possible that ]'s works are considered reliable sources as per ] by some Christian groups, and I think I have even, on admittedly rare occasions, even seen some of their statements endorsed by other Christians. However, even in those instances, there are certainly better sources to express the opinions of those groups, and as per wikipedia policies and guidelines those are the better sources to use.
	::I have to agree with Nick that the best thing for Anthony to do is to make a fairly thorough review of policies and guidelines, perhaps particularly ], ], ], ], ], and ] before engaging in any further edits of this type. Speaking as one of the most obviously "Christian" editors around here, I have to say that however thoroughly any of us are convinced of our own views regarding subjects, our own views are simply our own views. We are all human beings, and it is clear at least some of us are wrong regarding matters of personal beliefs, giving how thoroughly and completely these beliefs can sometimes contradict each other. It is for that reason that we tend to rely primarily on independent sources which meet ] standards, and most favor those which have been, in some way, peer reviewed. I urge him to thoroughly read the pages linked to above, and if he has any questions raise them on the talk pages of those pages, and conduct himself in accord with them, before engaging in conduct of this type again. I think if he does so he will be much more likely to be succeed. ] (]) 19:15, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	== Wiredbee ==
	I received from {{user5|Wiredbee}}, in which he states that he is not a sockpuppet of ]. Looking through his contributions and the corresponding SPI for RobertRosen, I am inclined to believe this claim based on the fact that there was no IP match and considering his UTRS statement, and would have unblocked him if not for the fact that he has engaged in socking himself, with alternate accounts Northerncreek, Norwichlass, and FriendOfMorpheus. However, in our conversation in UTRS, he has agreed to use only one account. Please review this matter. (Note: I have modified his block specifically to allow him to edit his talk page as well as this page.) ] ] ] ] &spades; 03:25, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*The CU linked them to ] in the investigation. . The SPI results were inconclusive, not "Not related" in regards to RobertRosen. This could mean that they geolocated in the same area but on a smart phone but not a PC like Roberts, or one of many other possibilities. Even if this is completely true and he is "only" linked to these other accounts, there is overlap in accounts and there is abuse in multiple articles. Friend of Morpheus was just blocked. Normally the shortest block I would have given at SPI would be two weeks, so I would recommend against unblock before then regardless, but not convinced there isn't linkage. As ] made the blocks, I've notified him of this discussion. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 03:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	**<small>Actually, I made the blocks. &#9786; ] (]) 13:40, 28 November 2012 (UTC)</small>
	*I would also add that there may be two sockmasters, yet meatpuppetry going on between them, further justifying scrutiny here. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 03:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*Guys, please go ahead and do the investigations. Just make sure that you do your investigation with enough reasoning and patience. I've said before that I have no acquaintance with RobertRosen and I repeat the same. It was a mere co-incidence that we shared the same point of view and expressed it strongly. I'm in no hurry to get my account unblocked. If you need 2 weeks to complete your investigations, please take 2 weeks. ] (]) 03:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::i would oppose any unblock until the user can convincingly display that they understand and are willing to follow our ] policy. One of the many socks before they were blocked left a long tirade vowing to bring Bunker Roy down. I cannot find which one now to determine whether it was from the Wiredbee sock collection or the RobertRosen sock collection, but since even if they are not sock puppets they have been MEAT puppets, the BLP / ] concerns are the same. -- ] 04:02, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*I was expecting TheRedPenOfDoom to come to this forum and oppose the unblocking of my Misplaced Pages account. I haven't seen all contributions by TheRedPenOfDoom but looking at the earliest archive on his ], I can see that he has been contributing to Misplaced Pages since 2009. I'm sure TheRedPenOfDoom has contributed selflessly towards making Misplaced Pages as the greatest knowledge repository in the history of mankind. Compared to TheRedPenOfDoom, I have contributed nothing to Misplaced Pages. I have contributed to Misplaced Pages in donation, but what I have received from Misplaced Pages (knowledge) is priceless. In the current situation, I'm piqued with the Misplaced Pages team in general and TheRedPenOfDoom in particular because you've chosen to take a hardline stance against my genuine position. I have two points to contest and if we're unable to reach a consensus on these two points, then I would suggest that you keep my account locked forever. I will continue to use Misplaced Pages, I will continue to donate money to Misplaced Pages and I will also contribute to Misplaced Pages with my writing skills. However, I will never look at the Barefoot College and Bunker Roy wiki pages again, nor will I bad mouth Misplaced Pages. But I will certainly tell the world that Misplaced Pages is not telling the truth about Bunker Roy and Barefoot College. And people will believe me because I've worked in Barefoot College for 3 years. </br>
	:My first point is that the reference to the by ] should not be used at all in the wikipedia pages of Bunker Roy and Barefoot College. There is no basis to include the data written by Greg Mortenson and this rationale has been logically explained by BlackMansBurden at the ]. If you ignore any other misdemeanors of BlackMansBurden and focus only on the issue about the Time magazine post, you will see my point. As BlackMansBurden has also explained in the talk page, Time is a reputed magazine but the writer ] is under a cloud for telling lies in order to achieve personal glory. Greg Mortenson's lies have been by Jon Krakauer. Recently Greg Mortenson was asked by the Montana state attorney general to step down from his own charity and . </br>
	:My second point is that TheRedPenOfDoom appears to be playing the Devil's Advocate by taking the spotlight away from a controversy in which Barefoot College / Bunker Roy were proved as plagiarists. It is responsibility of Misplaced Pages to provide links to reliable sources which explain the controversy in full detail. Although TheRedPenOfDoom has created a section "Returned Awards" that describes the controversy in brief, he deliberately chooses a source that only describes the controversy in passing. The Hindu newspaper and the Frontline magazine are published by the . Therefore, if is reliable, then is also reliable. It should not matter that because source #1 was published earlier, it alone should be used as a reference. Either we should use both the sources or we should use source #2. In addition, should also be given as reference. Also the section "Returned Awards" should be rephrased as "Controversy". </br>
	:That is all I have to say. I will not make any further comments on this topic any more. ] (]) 09:20, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::the above post does nothing but bolster my concern that the user is not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather continue to pursue a POV campaign and is not above using this ANI board to continue BLP attacks rather than present evidence that they are going to be a productive member of the editing community. '''oppose unblock'''.
	::::I will leave it to another party to redact any inappropriate BLP content from Wiredbee's screed.-- ] 13:09, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	{{od}} In terms of contributions Wiredbee and the three other sock accounts were editing the same two articles disruptively and indistinguishably to BlackMansBurden. In particular Wiredbee's objections to ] as a source and his forum shopping concerning TRPOD are no different from the edits of BlackMansBurden. Whether these are the same person or just two closely coordinated users is irrelevant, since there are just too many common abnormal features in their editing. Wiredbee has given no reasonable explanation of his three other sockpuppet accounts, all editing with the same common purpose. The three accounts were discovered accidentally by a checkuser and, given Wiredbee's outburst above, should probably remain blocked. ] (]) 13:25, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:(Just to clarify, I wasn't the blocking admin. I just tagged them and restored talkpage access for the socks, since {{user|Uncle G}} had blocked them without talkpage access.)
	:The lack of an IP match is meaningless given that RobertRosen freely to block evasion using tor and related anonymizing networks.
	:That said, however, I believe that this is sockpuppetry or blatant meatpuppetry. Both groups are obsessed with adding large amounts of negative material to the ] and ] articles. For example:
	*Wiredbee originally a "criticism" section.
	*Northerncreek that negative material with further poorly-sourced content.
	*Norwichlass further that section.
	*Northerncreek .
	*Wiredbee material accusing Barefoot College of plagiarism.
	*Northerncreek more negative material
	*Wiredbee the references.
	*TheRedPenOfDoom this massive addition, and Wiredbee it.
	*TheRedPenOfDoom it and a listing of an award received by the Barefoot College, but BlackMansBurden positive sourced content.
	*TheRedPenOfDoom .
	*BlackMansBurden an edit that indicates the potential use of a misconfigured proxy. (Note the conversion of a pipe character to the HTML encoding.)
	*BlackMansBurden TheRedPenOfDoom again, removing positive content. (A revert war then ensues until I block BlackMansBurden indefinitely for sockpuppetry.) TheRedPenOfDoom and Annette46 then expand the article.
	*Wiredbee returns and the addition of a large amount of positive content, so Annette46 Wiredbee's edits as vandalism.
	*Northerncreek a reference with www.architexturez.net, and is reverted.
	*Northerncreek, Norwichlass, and Wiredbee are blocked by Uncle G for sockpuppetry.
	:On ]:
	*Northerncreek, Wiredbee, and Norwichlass a large amount of negative content over several months.
	*TheRedPenOfDoom and Wiredbee revert this material back and forth.
	*HotPepperSpray . Again, note the conversion of characters to HTML encoding which indicates a misconfigured proxy.
	*TheRedPenOfDoom and HotPepperSpray revert back and forth until {{user|Courcelles}} blocks HotPepperSpray with {{tlx|checkuserblock-account}}.
	*Wiredbee randomly a reference and is reverted by Qworty.
	*BlackMansBurden Bunker Roy of plagiarism, and is reverted by TheRedPenOfDoom. They then revert back and forth a couple times until I block BlackMansBurden.
	*Wiredbee numerous tags, something BlackMansBurden .
	:Furthermore, both groups add ANI complaints about TheRedPenOfDoom citing ] and ] respectively ( and ) Even if they ultimately are not the same person, they are obviously colluding and both are socking to put down Bunker Roy and Barefoot College. ] (]) 14:58, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::*Nice presentation. I found much of this when investigating last night, entirely too much overlap to be a coincidence and I completely agree with Reaper Eternal's conclusions. The blocks should stay, and the ] reblocked for an indef period for sockpuppetry. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 15:04, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*{{cunote}} regarding {{xt|The SPI results were inconclusive, not "Not related" in regards to RobertRosen. This could mean that they geolocated in the same area but on a smart phone but not a PC like Roberts, or one of many other possibilities}}, please do not read that much into an {{inconclusive}} result {{emdash}} at least, as far as I'm concerned. When I close an investigation as "inconclusive", it means that the technical data I got do not allow me to make a determination one way or the other. If I believe that there is the possibility that two accounts are operated by the same person, then I usually close as {{possible}}. In this case, I could confirm that Wiredbee was operating three other accounts, but, as far as their connection to RobertRosen is concerned, it's something that will have to be determined based upon behavioural evidence, as I said earlier. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml"> ''']'''</span> ] 18:22, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*Guys, thanks for compiling a detailed dossier of the events leading to my blocking. While everything in the event listing is true, it is also true that BlackMansBurden and me (Wiredbee) are not known to each other. If you check the Barefoot College revision history from Nov-17 onwards, you will find that I did not attempt to revert most of the critical material that I had written. I only challenged the Barefoot College claim of training 3 million people to be architects, engineers, doctors etc. and the x-reference to the Aga Khan Awards controversy. It was just a coincidence that BlackMansBurden and I (Wiredbee) stuck to this position. So while you may continue to block my account indefinitely, you should at least ask 3-4 other Misplaced Pages editors to review the material on Barefoot College's wiki page and take a decision. These editors should be known to be unbiased and preferably familiar with the workings of charitable organizations / NGOs in India and other developing countries. ] (]) 00:29, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	== ] ==
	{{archive top|result=No action needed, the regular queue will take care of it. Non-obvious closes sometimes take longer while the admin considers the arguments. It was relisted anyway. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 14:17, 28 November 2012 (UTC)}}
	Without contacting a specific admin, this AfD has gone over 7 days and now requires closure. ] (]) 06:25, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Close as '''keep''' or close as '''delete'''? Plenty of good arguments in there for both.--] (]) 07:57, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:There are 35 AfDs open from the same day, they will slowly be closed or relisted (not this one). No need to bring AfDs here which have only such a small delay and arepart of the normal backlog. If AfDs are forgotten somehow, or are ''really'' problematic (not just by being evenly split, but because of sockpuppetry, canvassing, speedy deletion aspects, ...), they can be brought here, but routine delays like this one are not an "incident". ] (]) 08:00, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Follow-up AfD specific comments
	::* The AfD was 03:42 UTC, 20 November 2012.
	::* ‎The standard 7 day period expired 03:42 UTC, 27 November 2012.
	::* I ] at 08:02 UTC, 28 November 2012.
	::* ].
	:: As for the merits or otherwise of the article in question, I've said my piece at the AfD --] (]) 10:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	== ] throwing a tantrum ==
	Just read his . ] (]) 08:01, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Any reason you are edit warring over image sizes, instead of having a discussion? ] and all that... ] (]) 08:13, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::Fram: To answer your quite reasonable question: yes, there is a reason, but you might have to be inside my skin to understand it. I've been the victim of Yworo's campaigns before, and in the past I eventually decided to be a good Wikipedian and retreat without making a fuss. He went away after that, and I thought it was over, but he appeared again recently, coming across a formatting edit of mine that he disagreed with, and then went back through my recent contribs, deleting formatting changes in about a dozen articles. Even then, I held back, but I decided last night that I wasn't going to take his b.s. anymore, that it wasn't right for him to walk all over me, that I had to take a stand against his bullying. In reponse, I probably over-reacted, I'm sure -- it's hard to know exactly when to stop, once you get going -- and I'm sorry if I went too far, but I don't apologize for fighting back against an unimaginative and authoritarian bully, who, if he isn't stopped, is bound to do it again to other editors less able to respond. ] (]) 08:41, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::Are there any traces (AN/ANI discussions, RfCs, ...) about these earlier campaigns, or is this the first time that it has lead to the dramah boards? ] (]) 08:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::IIRC, the discussions took place on my talk page (I can look back through the history if you like) - I don't recall it coming here, but I could be mistaken (my middle-aged brain being what it is). ] (]) 09:01, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Visual disabilities. The ] is quite clear that images should be manually sized only if there is a good reason to do so. Manually sizing the images prevents the visually disabled from adjusting image sizes as needed using their preferences. I've had the discussion with many editors over many years. I had it with BMK in 2010. He is the only editor who, even after understanding the issue, refuses to allow anyone to change "his" articles from "his" personal preferred image style. ] (]) 08:17, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::Hey Yworo, ]? ] (]) 08:20, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::{{personal attack removed}} ] (]) 08:22, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:: To quote the relevant part of the '''''policy:''''' "In general, do not define the size of an image unless there is a good reason to do so: some users have small screens or need to configure their systems to display large text; "forced" large thumbnails can leave little width for text, making reading difficult. In addition, forcing a "larger" image size at say 260px will actually make it smaller for those with a larger size set as preference unless you use upright with a scaling factor, so the use of upright is preferred wherever sensible." ] (]) 08:21, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::(ec)Then start an RfC or similar venue for dispute resolution, don't edit war on multiple articles. Things like don't look good on either of you, and the fact that you are specifically targetting articles by Beyond My Ken for this treatment is worrying. Remember that 3RR is not a right, you can be blocked for edit warring without ever crossing 3RR. ] (]) 08:22, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::Feel free to note that I stopped mostly after one revert, then tagged the articles. BMK reverted both the change ''and'' the tag and has two or three reverts on each article, as well as ] in the edit summaries. ] (]) 08:24, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::It worthwhile to note that '''''only people with accounts can set their thumbnail size in preferences'''''. That means that everyone that Yworo pretends to be concerned about who does not have an account -- i.e. the majority of the world -- only sees what is in the article. What '''''that''''' means (and what Yworo seems not to understand -- although he only brought up the accessibility issue recently, he's been doing the same thing without regard to that for quite a while -- is that the question of accessibility for the visually impaired is a '''''browser issue''''' and not a Misplaced Pages one. We set up the articles so they look good, and specialized browsers are responsible for making them accessible for the visually impaired. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::::And we have a '''''policy''''' that is a compromise taking into account the visually impaired and the many types of devices, phones, tablets, etc. which our readers use. We take into account that the residents of the third world don't have 1920 x 1200 monitors: if they are lucky enough to have access to a computer, it is likely 800 x 480. Our policy and default thumbnail sizes are the way they are ''for multiple reasons'', and you have been ''willfully ignoring this'' for years. If you think the defaults should be changed, the proper place to go about it is on the talk pages of the policies concerned, not in article space and through edit warring. ] (]) 08:37, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::(ec)Edit summaries like "you're soo special", "kicks the legally blind into the gutter"? Oh wait, those are yours. Yworo, you are trying to blame this on Beyond My Ken, but as far as I can tell, this is a typical situation where ''both'' parties should step back and change their approach. Stop reverting, stop tagging, and go for outside opinions on the actual dispute, not on behavioral aspects, which look bad for both of you. ] (]) 08:34, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::::Fram: (Sorry, I had a response to you, but I had to revert when Yworo took my response to your earlier comment and moved it down here) Yes, I will step back immediately. I would ask that Yworo stop culling my contributions for things to delete. I may not be the epitome of the perfect Wikipedian, but I've contributed a fair amount in my time, and I would appreciate receiving that consideration. ] (])
	Looking at what lies behing this section, the image size debate, it seems that the policy is way out of line with what actually happens in our articles, and Beyond My Ken isn't the exception with his fixed sizes at all. ]:
	*Fixed size for (at least some of) the files: ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ...
	*No fixed size for files: ], ], ], ], ], ...
	This seems to be one of those policies that is not really in line with what actually happens in our articles, even in the best of them. Singling out one editor and focusing on his articles (articles he made a lot of edits in, and where you had no prior or other involvement in most cases) seems to be an unproductive way of enforcing a policy most people don't care about anyway. ] (]) 08:52, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Looks a lot like a ] case here. Is Yworo crawling through BMK's articles to find problems? I can't imagine he stumbles on BMKs randomly.--v/r - ]] 15:42, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:: If an editor persistently edits in a manner which reduces the quality of our articles in a particular manner, then it does not constitute hounding to periodically use said editor's contributions list as a guide to remedying that, especially if the user has had it patiently explained to him why he is in the wrong. I've done the same in the past with BMK's (thankfully now historical) insistence in inserting superfluous whitespace above and below article bodies. As for the thumbnail policy itself, I'd say it's nearly universally respected these days, and that a small sample of FAs is hardly indicative (two seconds' examination of ], for instance, shows that its images are almost all charts or screenshots which may be difficult to read if arbitrarily scaled, and that it is therefore a valid exception). ] (]) 17:27, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::I'd say edit summaries like takes it out of the realm of engaging a problematic user on failing to address policy and into the realm of a personal vendetta. Just my personal opinion. Yworo should have asked someone else to engage with BMK sooner.--v/r - ]] 18:00, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::That is unacceptable, but so is (Some of the edits, like , are mildly negative, but the edit summaries are worse.) ] 21:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::I've not said anything excusing BMK.--v/r - ]] 23:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	=== Protected ===
	*]
	I've protected the page. as I noted in the link above, I chose protection over blocking in the hopes that you two will talk this out instead of continuing edit warring. But if it continues, further sanction may occur as necessary. - <b>]</b> 08:49, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::I understand. Thank you. ] (]) 08:55, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::Apparently not. . ] (]) 21:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::One wonders who ], an account created just today, really is. ] (]) 22:37, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Answer: troll sock, now CU-blocked by Salvio. ] (]) 22:51, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Yes, we ec'd as I was reporting that. Glad that's cleared up. ] (]) 22:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	Even without an account, I'm annoyed by explicit sizing and I sometimes remove the explicit sizes when I come across them, but these days a lot of them are in protected templates so are impervious to normal editing. The default sizes presented to me as an unenrolled user are usually preferable to (smaller than) the big sizes people set manually because they want to sell more of whatever the image depicts. I'm not a believer in the manual of style controlling anyone's editing, though in this case I agree that what it says is right for the encyclopedia and also conflicts with observed (unfortunate) practice. One of these days I'll get it together to install my own personal snapshot of Misplaced Pages on my home computer, so I can (among other things) set the defaults the way I like them. At that point the manually set sizes will be even more annoying. ] (]) 03:28, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	== Hasty ] ==
	{{archive top|result=Close was fine considering the circumstances. Bringing it here to verify since you weren't sure was good judgement as well. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 14:13, 28 November 2012 (UTC)}}
	I've just carried out a of what looks like a fairly uncontroversial AfD at ]. The article had already been CSD'd by an admin, so I was trying to help. I've then realised that I was kind of ], since I had previously !voted in the AfD. I don't think this is the biggest cock-up in the world, but could someone tell me the correct course of action here before I ''really'' cock things up trying to revert myself? Thanks. ] <sup><small>'']''</small></sup> 11:56, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:If it's already been speedy deleted by G7 at the request of the author, I see nothing contentious and no problem with your closure. -- ] (]) 12:04, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:It is generally acceptable for participants in an AfD to close it if: 1) the article has already been deleted by an administrator, or 2) the nominator has withdrawn the AfD, and there are no outstanding "delete" !votes. -- ] ] ] ] &spades; 12:07, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:(ec)I occasionally non-admin close AfDs that have been CSDed or where the author has explicitly requested closure against a unanimous keep (]). I see no problem with what you've done. --] ] ] 12:10, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Ah, OK. I was just concerned that I had clearly contravened ]'s point about inappropriate closures, but I'll stop worrying now. Thanks guys. ] <sup><small>'']''</small></sup> 12:13, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::This is precisely why bots are used to close some discussions at FFD — many images get speedy deleted by admins who don't close the discussions, and nobody's ever going to object to closure in such a case. They might object to the speedy deletion, but that's not a problem for the person who closed it. ] (]) 12:29, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::From ]: "If a page is speedy deleted, but the deleting administrator does not close the discussion, anyone may close the discussion." I imagine that line was written specifically for cases like this.''' —&nbsp;<u><font color="#000000">]</font></u> ''(<u><font color="#000000">]</font></u>)''''' 14:02, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	== Urgent attention required - personal details posted ==
	After an ongoing discussion at ], ] posted a comment noting that an RFC had been started (here - ]). Matt 800 posted the same information in both but his commentary included another editor's full name, supposed private address and supposed IP address. This is clearly ]. Not being an admin, I can't remove the RFC so I have also not removed the corresponding comment from the AFD.
	Could an admin remove both please? I have warned Matt 800 on his talk page but the whole lot really should be removed properly. Thanks, ]] 12:11, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	* This is a request for ], which is handled at a more senior level than here. Please go to ] and follow the instructions there. --] ] ] 12:13, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*I've deleted the RFC and rev-deleted the outing in the AfD as a stopgap, but it also needs to go for Oversight. -- ] (]) 12:19, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:*Thanks guys. Am on my iPad rather than PC, so am a bit limited. Thought attention here would be better than none at all. Suggestions? ]] 12:23, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	When you edit this page, the ] says:
	{{quote|1=;Oversight & Revision Deletion
	<span style="font-size:120%;">'''If the issue concerns a privacy-related matter, or potential libel/defamation, <u>do not post it here</u>'''</span>. If you need an edit or log entry to be ] or ] (oversighted), or for any privacy-related matter, please e-mail the relevant diffs internally via ] or to '''<code>oversight-en-wp{{@}}wikipedia.org</code>'''. If a suppression action is pending, consider asking an ] ''privately'' to delete the revision in the meantime.
	}}		}}
			This goes a bit beyond original requirements, and the last two are effectively preventative measures to try and avoid problems arising. An editor involved exclusively on footy articles has limited to no need for involvement in admin noticeboards. ] (]) 17:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	Posting details here places it on one of the most looked at pages in the project - not the best way to deal with privacy concerns, really, but it happens fairly regularly. (just saying...) How do we stop this happening? <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">]&thinsp;]</span> 12:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:*Yeah, as I said above - on my iPad rather than PC. No email and that form doesn't work for non-emailed account. It was either post it here or not at all. Given the content, I thought it best to ask here rather than not at all. But thanks for your advice. ]] 12:38, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::Ah, ok. I thought you hadn't seen the notice. It wasn't advice, it was a request for ideas about how to get the point across better. I didn't realise you'd done it despite the notice. Sorry if you took it the wrong way. I was also battling edit-conflicts - as you'll see in the history, and didn't see your "Suggestions?" question, although I should have done, sorry - so I'm asking the same question as you, really {{smiley}}<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">]&thinsp;]</span> 12:42, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::All good Begoon, no problem. Agree it might need to be looked at. For non-email-enabled accounts from tablets, phones, etc the option just isn't there. ]] 13:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Cool. I already upset the wife today, so I'd rather not upset people here too... Your experience says there also needs to be a way to do this when the options on offer are no good. Posting on an admin's talk page isn't much better, even if you know they are online you still need to make sure they see it, or find another admin if they don't. So if we're really serious about privacy we need better options, and a better way to let people know what they are - but I can't think of any offhand - hence the question. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">]&thinsp;]</span> 13:13, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::::Ah, one of <u>those</u> days! Ha ha. Yes, the question (perhaps under less urgent circumstances) is well worth discussing in detail. Maybe something for ] at some stage. ]] 13:30, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::: Why not adopt a convention that the any person reading it here can delete the post, then post a notice to the OP letting them know how it should be handled. That would cut down the number of people who see it.--]] 13:01, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Wouldn't work well -- removals jump out as red negative numbers on the history which attract ''more'' attention than regular edits. I do think it would be appropriate for an admin to revdel (with an explanatory edit summary, of course -- something like ''refer to OTRS''). <small>]</small> 13:09, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::: I'm not convinced. My watch list has a sea of red, so a red entry doesn't jump out at me. (Plus, the problem exists because editors are ignoring the big red message, so I'm not convinced a small red number will be more obvious, and if it is, change the edit notice to a small red negative number) If you use an edit summary of "archiving" which is sort of accurate, I don't think it would bring as much attention as actually remaining. There may be better solutions, but I'm not looking for a perfect looking, I'm proposing an easy change which might help. Let me turn it around - it is generally considered bad form to remove someone else's post. Would anyone object to an exception for cases where someone has posted in violation of a request to handle it differently?--]] 21:07, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*Side note - Matt 800 removed Boing!'s redact note at the AFD and replaced it with a new version of his commentary which still includes an IP and geo-locate details (state only). That seems borderline at best. The intention still seems to be to out the other editor in some way or at least draw attention to the editor's private details. ]] 13:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Interesting - Well its not outing to list what an IP editor has done or where their IP geolocates to. They have provided that info by editing as an IP. Whats not on is accusing an editor here with a username from being that IP. Of course if an editor here is actually silly enough to start deleting stuff on fr-wp (in order to bolster an 'its not on fr so its not notable to the French' argument) as an IP, its got to be looked at somewhere/how. ] (]) 13:34, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::Thanks for taking the time to clarify. ]] 22:15, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	: I have opened ], as evidence (particularly ) suggests Matt 800 is an alternate account of France2007. -- ]'''ჷ'''] 13:59, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*Article deleted and AFD closed per user request. I am tempted to block the editor for socking in the AFD as an IP. They admit to being the IP and they !voted as France2007 and 30 minutes later as the IP. But I've just let it go because I'm pretty sure France2007 gets the idea that he has done wrong.--v/r - ]] 15:37, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	** That doesn't look like socking. Misplaced Pages's crap servers lose session data pretty often. As result people find themselves posting while logged out unless they are very careful. There is no attempt there by France2007 to appear as two different editors. ] (]) 17:49, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	***Posting two seperate keep !votes doesn't look like an intentional effort was made? I've never had a problem with losing session data. Two keep !votes, in succession, within 30 minutes of each other, by the same user and coincidently the mystical lose of session data that I've never seen pops up? Sorry, pretty lame excuse you have there.--v/r - ]] 18:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	**** It happened to me dozens if not hundreds of times. It was even the Signpost at some point . ] (]) 18:11, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*****You pointed to a 6 month old signpost that said it was fixed.--v/r - ]] 18:17, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	****** It happened to me today and most of this week as well. I've seen other claims of stuff being fixed on Misplaced Pages, but it wasn't really. . ] (]) 18:23, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*******I'm still not buying it. Let's figure for a moment that you're right and I just have been unconventially lucky (might go buy a loto ticket tonight), how does it explain the user's deliberate action of leaving a second keep !vote?--v/r - ]] 18:29, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	******** If you don't buy it, then block him. You're an admin. I for one am more interested in seeing how the SPI ] tuns out. ] (]) 18:52, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*********I already said, I think he gets the point and a block at this point wouldn't be preventative. His last edit to the AfD seems to show he is starting to understand.--v/r - ]] 19:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	**********Just as an update, I've blocked France2007 (and a couple of IPs) for a month and indef blocked Matt 800 for sockpuppetry. They have also tag teamed on the fr.wikipedia.org, plus other technical details link these two as the same. ] ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 00:00, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	== Cleopatra Stratan ==
	{{archivetop|status=fixed|result=Article fixed, IP has stopped editing, probably not worthing blocking. <small>]</small> 15:03, 28 November 2012 (UTC)}}
	User 188.131.64.120 has removed all content from http://en.wikipedia.org/Cleopatra_Stratan, replacing it instead with a Romanian-language "article" on Caisîn Alexandru (the identity of this character is unknown, and might be the vandal himself) and how good a student he is.
	I have written to them, but I highly doubt they will see the message in their talk page.
	Still, if you are unable to block him/her for that act of vandalism, please at least change the article back to its original form. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:27, 28 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	{{archivebottom}}
	== ] ==
	The user was blocked for a month for edit-warring and indefinitely from the topics of Armenian-Azeri and related ethnic conflicts.
	Today, the block expired, and they immediately started a dispute on ], which, I believe, demonstrates that they misunderstand ] (they make a statement that Galstyan is an Armenian citizen, which is equivalent to the statement that he breaks the law, and insist that I should prove he is not).
	I request the administrators to estimate (i) whether this is a topic ban violation (I am not 100% sure this is a '''related dispute''' - this is clearly a topic which is Armenian, but not Armenian-Azeri);; (ii) whether this is a proper application of ]. If I am wrong on both counts, I will treat it as a usual content dispute and proceed via usual avenues. Thanks in advance.--] (]) 13:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:] says it's ok to edit sports articles with no political controversy. --] (]) 13:57, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:: You're continuing an Armenian-Azeri conflict, only moving it to sports articles. As such, it falls under the same rules ... obviously nationaility ''has'' possible political controversy, and you know that already (]''']''']) 15:09, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:*I agree with Bwilkins. If you had been updating points or neutral facts, that would be one thing, but you instantly went in and started arguing Armenian ethnicity issues, which is certainly in violation of the spirit of the ban, if not the letter. There was no political controversy in that article until you started participating. That is the entire reason the ban was enacted, to prevent this type of disruption. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 15:58, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::: What I actually said was ''Editing articles of people which happen to be Armenian or Azerbaijani is tolerable if there is no ethnic/nationalistic related content, which covers a lot of sports' BLPs, but anything beyond that is not.'' This is clearly an ethnic issue, and I therefore believe it to be in violation of the ban. TheShadowCrow has also been warned multiple times that editing on the edges of a topic ban is frowned upon, so my sympathy is limited here. It is also difficult to ignore the same pattern of behaviour here when it comes to learning and respecting policy. That said, I would be opposed to a block in this instance unless TheShadowCrow refuses to disengage. ]<small><span style="font-weight:bold;">&nbsp;·</span>&#32;]</small> 16:14, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	== AIV ==
	{{archivetop|status=Done|Dealt with. --]&nbsp;] 20:34, 28 November 2012 (UTC)}}
	AIV is backlogged. Would deal with it myself, but have to run to work. ]! <sup>]</sup> 17:32, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:{{done}}. Not by me, but it's not backlogged anymore. --]''''']''''' 18:01, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== Legal Threat ==
	{{Archive top|User indeffed for legal threat.--] (]) 01:34, 29 November 2012 (UTC)}}
	Looks like is a legal threat.
	Perhaps a short break is needed ? <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:2px;">].<font style="color:white;background:blue;">&nbsp;'''W'''e '''a'''re '''a'''ll '''K'''osh ...&nbsp;</font></span> 18:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Sounds like. ] (]) 19:06, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::After taking the time to consider this, I don't think ] applies and I've issued the block.--v/r - ]] 19:21, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::Unnecessary block. After being warned for the legal threat KoshVorlon linked, the edited posted twice more, saying they would proceed to and . As they seemed to have gotten the message a legal threat wasn't gonna fly, there was no pointing in blocking. <small>]</small> 21:59, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::Where did the editor recant and disavow his legal threat? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:14, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::In fact, his "taking it to dispute resolution" looks like it refers again to the court system, not to wikipedia's version of dispute resolution. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:32, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	{{Archive bottom}}
	== ] alleging defamation ==
	] claims to be ] and has removed a sourced section about domestic violence charges from the article. There seems to be ] and ] issues here, but this should probably be handled delicately. I'm at work at the moment and wont be able to contribute much to this area until tomorrow. --] 19:43, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Looks like a case for "]", perhaps. ] ]] 19:50, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Indeed. The blanked section is sourced solely to the "Lewiston Sun Journal", so there is no problem with the person removing it. He may indeed be correct that it's defamatory. I've watchlisted the article and dropped a cautious welcome on his talk page. --] (]) 19:52, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*I've also left a message on his talk page. I don't think we need to block anyone, he is understandably upset and it seems obvious he is acting in good faith. The best solution is to engage and calmly discuss with him. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 19:57, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	**That info from ] was posted by an IP. It might be undue weight, but if it were to be included, it would only be fair to include "the rest of the story". If that paper is the only one covering it, I wonder about the notability of the article's subject. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 20:22, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	***To comment on the content issue, in my view, reasonable weight would be to say no more then "In May 2009 He was charged with several offenses, including domestic violence assault, He was only found guilty of reckless conduct." (using the old source, and the one identified by Baseball Bugs as citations) More then that about the charge would be undue, and the 2012 charge does not seem serious enough for inclusion. ]] 20:39, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	****I'm out for a while, but moving this to the talk page of the article is likely worthwhile. He gave a docket number in his comment, but not sure how to look that up, and of course, that isn't a good source, but perhaps other sources are out there that can be cross referenced with it. He hasn't replied since making that one edit, but we need to do what you guys are already doing, reviewing and making sure it is within WP:BLP, preferably on the talk page of the article. I just now noticed that no one has notified him of this discussion, but templating him now doesn't seem wise, no reason to antagonize the situation with a new user trying to protect his own name in good faith. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 20:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*****Moving to the article talk page seems fair. My guess is that the guy wrote the original article about himself and is basically defending it. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 20:53, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	******Looking at the talk page of the original creator makes your guess very likely. It looks like TheRedPenOfDoom is cleaning it up a bit, and I would trust his judgement in this. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 22:35, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Assistance requested''' Would like an admin to look at the email he posted on my talk page (after his five dollar donation) that seems to be a legal threat to Sue Gardner. I've tried to politely get him to not do this (see his talk page) but I can't help but to thing for him to have posted this after my polite warning, that he may have crossed the line. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 01:24, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	::The only thing holding me back from a block is the fact that the info is out of the article. Not sure what else he wants. ] ]] 01:33, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::Under ], I don't think the content of the article matters. What he posted on my page was a copy of the email he sent to the foundation. It has a pretty clear legal threat. I'm trying to be sensitive to the matter since it is an article about him, but I had previously warned him about this. He started this article and has edited it under different accounts (based on an examination of the grammar of previous contributions), so he isn't above throwing away accounts. My gut says to block, but the sensitive nature says I should get other opinions first. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 01:41, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::We are unfortunately now in unambiguous ] territory, and if not withdrawn it requires a block. As for the ] angle, he has not provided any information that would justify removing reliably sourced information (which I don't think is even in the current version). That a person was subsequently found guilty of only a lesser charge, or even a totally different charge does not change the fact that they were originally charged. Given the burden of proof for conviction, a person may well have committed acts even if found not guilty by a court of law. Absent information that the Newspaper was in error about the charges at the time of publication, it sounds like the paper reported a matter of public record, and us passing along that information is permissible. That doesn't mean we must include the information, but it does mean the decision to include or exclude the information is a normal content decision. ]] 01:44, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::{{ec}} I doubt he wants anything more (to WK). I don't think I'd block him for the legal threat as the information shouldn't be in the article. I think the material posted to your talk page should be removed unless youo wants to keep it there for some reason.--] (]) 01:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::We generally don't report charges per ].--] (]) 01:48, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::::I'm fine if we decide that in this case the charges should not be mentioned, my point is only that it is a matter for normal policy, and that we need not consider the legal threat in making the decision. I'm not sure if the application of ] is as clear as you imply, but I also don't think there is any compelling reason the information needs to be included either. ]] 01:56, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::::The IP who originally posted the charges, {{user|72.12.75.231}}, is from Maine (no surprise) and it's hard telling whether he was innocently posting it or if he was trying to smear the subject via undue weight. But either way, he didn't post the resolution of the charges, which amounted to not much, and being cautious under BLP would indicate keeping that information out. But the editor needs to be issue a final warning, that he must retract the legal threats or he'll be blocked as per the rules. Only arguing for a smidgen of leniency because his complaint seems justified. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:59, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	*I've removed the one source because it was improper and undue for what it was citing. I'm still talking with Leonard on my talk page. I don't think he fully understands, but we are trying. I hate being in this position where policy says I should block now, but I get the feeling that will only make things worse, so not for now. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 02:03, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	**If he fails the notability test, then the article could be zapped. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 02:08, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	***I think he gets it now, hopefully we can just close up and deal with the content outside of ANI. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 03:43, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	== Mandriva ==
	I am following the article {{pagelinks|Mandriva}} and I must complain about the behavior of:
	* {{userlinks|Hopefloat007}}
	* {{userlinks|Russia101}}
	* {{userlinks|Mdvcorpfr}}
	* {{userlinks|Mdvcorp}}
	:in November 2012 as well as October/November 2011. The three users might be the same person and act similarly on the French Misplaced Pages. Please see and .
	The behavior consists in replacing the content of the article, which is correctly sourced, with what they call "accurate" or "updated" content without sources (or recently with only one source). I suspect that some people working for this company want to control what is said about it. The username "Mdvcorpfr" makes me think of a ]. I don't personally have enough time to deal with this problem for the moment, so, I prefer explaining it here and I hope some administrator can keep a look at this.
	Thanks a lot in advance. Best regards. ] (]) 22:51, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:I blocked Mdvcorp and Mdvcorpfr as username blocks. ]<small><sup>]</sup></small> 23:06, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	== LibStar ==
	This user is persistently removing my and another user's comments regarding an ongoing controversial deletion discussion, ]. Another user and I have been discussing, successfully, how the article may be better focused in such a way to potentially resolve the dispute, and this user has randomly come along, unilaterally deleted it, and used his rollback tools to remove any attempt to re-add it. I think this is really poor form. I rarely get involved in deletion discussions, and I'm trying to work on an amicable outcome here, and to have my comments deleted and then rollbacked as if they're vandalism is not cool. ] (]) 00:24, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	: the comments have not been deleted but moved to the talk page because the discussion was getting excessively large when 99.9% of people will skip over it. removal (and moving) of content is '''not''' vandalism. Drover's wife motivation for coming to ANI is simply because she didn't like me moving excessive content to a more appropriate space. ] (]) 00:28, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	::It wasn't a more appropriate space - you unilaterally dumped an ongoing discussion that actually got to the heart of the notability dispute and attempted to reach a less acrimonious result on an empty and unread talk page, and then abused your rollback permissions to edit war and keep it removed. ] (]) 00:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	::: discussion can easily continue on the talk page. and a note appears on the main AfD page to tell people it's there if they wish to continue. talk pages are empty until content is there, that is irrelevant. ] (]) 00:34, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	this is a one off incorrect use of rollback for which I apologise. I don't see how this should be an ANI issue. talk pages of AfDs have been used in the past eg ]. ] (]) 00:38, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	:It's rude to move multiple editor's comments from the main page to the talk page. They can be easily skimmed over by a reviewer, so they don't really disrupt very much as long as they're indented appropriately. An alternative would be to {{tl|hat}} the section with a brief description of the contents of the section. <small>]</small> 01:23, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	:: you may think it's rude but where it is a breach of WP policy that necessitates reporting to a ANI for admin intervention? ] (]) 02:53, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::You should not be moving other editors' comments from an AfD. It's not your place to do so. Let the closing admin deal with it. AfD discussions are often contentious and sometimes go into long threaded battles. Not only did you move it, but when it was restored, you removed it again. And you have it backwards; there needs to be a policy violation for you to remove content from a discussion page.--] (]) 03:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::: again, content was not deleted, it was moved to a different location with a note placed directing editors to it. it did not disappear and never to be found again. ] (]) 03:05, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::::] does support moving off-topic comments to the talk page, so I'm not concerned LibStar did it once. (Obviously off-topic is subjective.) But that's the type of thing if someone objects it's better to just leave it alone (or hat it, instead). <small>]</small> 03:09, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::{{editconflict}}]. Ideally, this could be resolved ''without''' official admin action -- personally if LibStar were to agree not to move Drover's wife comments again, instead collapsing them if they stray off topic, I'd consider that an amicable solution. <small>]</small> 03:07, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	I've restored discussion in main space and collapsed. I consider the issue resolved. ] (]) 04:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	== RevDel ==
	{{archive top|Problem solved ] (]) 01:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)}}
	Clean up, aisle 3... ], edit date 13 December 2009‎ + my edit. The offending comments are repeated on the article's talk page, too. ] (]) 01:06, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Scrubbed, for whatever good it does at this point. Speaking of which, how the hell does a blatant BLP violation sit there like that for three years? ] (]) 01:17, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Its unfortunate, but once vandalism slips by the automated vandalism detection systems, RC patrollers, and random watchlists it may appear on, it can stick around for a long time before someone comes along and notices. As far as I know, there is no systematic system that attempts to find such vandal edits that have slipped through those main lines of defense. ]] 01:22, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::Yeah, it was more an expression of frustration than a question. But thanks :) Looking at , that page is looked at by ~2 people a day, so at least not many saw it. And I wouldn't be surprised if one of the two people were bots and crawlers. ] (]) 01:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	== Using hidden comments to make a space by ] ==
	I have come to an impasse with {{user|Beyond My Ken}} with my attempts at discussion with him and his insistence on pushing his own formatting.
			:I agree to those principles and am grateful for the mentorship opportunity! ] • ] ⚽ 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	The issue is his using the wikimarkup <nowiki><!--spacing--></nowiki> into articles right after the last entry in ==External links== and above the ] ].
			::Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. ]] 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. ] (]) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. ]] 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. ] (]) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::No bad - let me rephrase if that helps. I am not opposed to mentoring in place of the current CBAN proposal. ]] 18:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			====Discussion====
	He has edit warred over this issue and was reported here for it: ].
			*Going to chime in here as someone involved in footy related articles. I've reviewed some of the editors contributions, and despite all the issues raised in this topic that are very problematic, the user has seemingly made good contributions to football related articles. I otherwise don't doubt that the user previously edited with an IP (I'm pretty sure which IP this is based on edit histories, but assuming good faith it's not part of this topic and not relevant either so won't bother referencing). I only state this to deflect from suggestions that this editor ''could be'' a sockpuppet, as I strongly don't believe to be the case, instead I suspect about 18 months of low-key editing experience up until now. It's therefore a great shame FN2007 went down this road, even if appears to have now retracted the original complaint. Hopefully they can take on board the requests to avoid controversial edits, especially at other user talkpages and such. I'd like to think this is a case of a user trying to run before they can walk, and if they now pace themselves it could work out in the long-term, but alas the damage has also already been done here it seems. Also as a personal suggestion to the editor, if you're here for football articles, then you should be aiming to stay well away from admin noticeboards as they will rarely ever concern you. Generally there ''should be'' relatively low controversy editing football articles, even if most remain contentious topics as BLP. So if football is your editing remit here, you're doing it very badly by ending up at a noticeboard, equally so by opening this topic, even with your good contributions. I am therefore reluctantly offering to act as a ], if the user can commit to the general policy and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, in the hope of not losing a participant in the under edited area of women's football articles. ] (]) 14:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. ] • ] ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. ] (]) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per ], as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. ] (]) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::That's definitely OK with me. ] • ] ⚽ 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Mainly just everyone else at this point it seems. ] (]) 14:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Should I ping? ] (]) 14:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I gladly and humbly '''accept''' your mentorship offer. ] • ] ⚽ 14:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Just to be clear, this would be a ] offer, nothing more than that. Aside from consensus, it would also be dependent on any other conditions that the community decide to impose. ] (]) 14:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Completely not related but wanting to chime in.
			:I admit that at first, as a newbie edit, I was kind of surprised on how @] handled things, and I can understand the perspective that it seems to be in violation of assume good faith, but I’d like to point out that as someone who was in the same situation as @], it’s not really in violation of Assume Good Faith. He just is very organized but tries his best to help others. Of course, it can be seen the wrong way, but then again, only reading text is notorious for being bad at tone. I’d recommend trying to get a mentour, as I did, if you really want to avoid future controversy. I’d recommend FootballNerd to take up CNC’s mentorship offer. ] (]) 14:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Furthermore, no one is perfect. Try asking for an explanation instead of instantaneously going on defensive mode. That will always help. Be humble. ] (]) 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I have taken up the mentorship offer. ] • ] ⚽ 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). ] (]) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. ]] 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Agreed, @] maybe hold off on pings for now. ] (]) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Alright, sounds good. ] (]) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Per ] I think pings are appropriate now. ] (]) 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as {{u|CommunityNotesContributor}} has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor. ] (]) 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. ] (]) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I'm now home and will start drafting after lunch. I'll send it you before posting it here. ] • ] ⚽ 14:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I see a list of conditions but not an explicit proposal for mentoring. Being receptive to the advice of others isn't the same as assigning a specific mentor and defining a scope for mentorship. Can the proposal be clarified, or else renamed? ] (]) 18:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed ]. ] (]) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Thanks for . I did not read the discussion until after you , so it was not evident that a specific mentor had been named. ] (]) 02:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Response from Footballnerd2007===
	He was warned and .
			Good Afternoon all,
			Can I start by making something unequivocally clear: my behaviour over the past 24 hours has been unacceptable and has resembled that of a lawyer acting in court, trying to defend my actions in an overly strategic way. This course of action was wrong, and I apologise for it.
			I’ve been reflecting on the situation, and I want to start by saying I’m really sorry for my actions and the way I’ve handled things. I know I messed up, and I feel it's important to acknowledge that. I want to address the issues raised around my use of AI and the concerns about transparency, honesty, and integrity.
	After the report, later, I started a discussion on the MoS project page: ]. I invited ] to participate: . He warned me not to post on his talk page again unless "required to by Misplaced Pages policy": .
			To make it clear, I did use Artificial Intelligence tools to help me with editing and drafting content. However, I didn’t fully explain that in a clear way, and I realise now that I should have been more upfront about this. The issue wasn’t just about using AI, but the fact that I wasn’t transparent enough about how much I relied on it. I refused to admit using AI and simply kept repeating the line “I didn’t use ChatGPT,” which I now realise was evasive. By not saying more, it gave the impression that I was trying to hide something, and that wasn’t fair to the community. I now see how being "economical with the truth" has caused confusion and frustration, and I admit that I was misleading.
	He has repeated the issue here now: . I discussed the issue with him on its ].
			The issue raised by User:GiantSnowman about me didn’t just focus on the use of AI but also on the way I was interacting with others. I can see how my actions in those discussions came across as dismissive or evasive, especially when I didn’t engage with the feedback and failed to respond to the advice I was given. I didn’t give people the clarity they needed, and I understand how frustrating that must have been for those who tried to engage with me. I admit I attempted to “give them the run around.” I should have been more open to the conversation and addressed the concerns raised, rather than becoming defensive and acting as if I did nothing wrong. This is not an attempt to justify it, but I want to admit that the reason I used AI was mainly due to laziness and an attempt to sound more knowledgeable in order to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy.
	I apologize for posting here at this forum but I have exhausted my options. Regards.] (]) 03:25, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	:{{nao}} Well, this is a lot of to-do over a white space. What is it, exactly, that you want to come from this discussion? How will it end differently than the prior discussion? Personally, I would just let it go. It's a line of white space, could you please explain why you're so invested in this? ] seems to apply. ] ]] 03:33, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			I also want to address how I behaved today. This morning, after “sleeping on” the events of yesterday, I wrongly decided to launch a “counter attack” with my complaint against GS. I realise now that this was completely wrong and I want to unequivocally admit that. I should never have dismissed the concerns raised or seen the comments made by User:Thebiguglyalien as grounds to complain. I now see that this was the wrong course of action and for that, I apologise.
	::(ec) A discussion in an obscure corner of Misplaced Pages does not a consensus make.<p>The spacing comment is a simple device which solves a simple problem: when there are navboxes below a "External links" section, the navboxes can be visually too close to the text, making it difficult to read and unpleasant to look at. In the rendering of an article page, space is provided before every primary section header, so that it is set apart from the end of the section above it. This is to help visually separate one section from the other, which helps make it easier to scroll through the page. Unfortunatley, navboxes are an afterthought, and do not have any in-built way to provide the same separation. Doing so internally would be difficult, I understand, because any space built in on top of a navbox would have to go away when more then navbox is stacked, as they often are. The spacing comment simply provides the visual breathing space afforded to the rest of the page by the software. It hurts nothing, and does not add appreciable "white space" to the article. (Many of my edits do, indeed, work to eliminate big blocks of white space which also make reading an article more annoying.) That CurbChain and a small handful of people continue to consider this as a major problem &ndash; serious enough to bring to AN/I (!?) &ndash; is inexplicable to me. The issue has been discussed a number of times, with the result that the edits have been judged not to be a problem, but the handful continue to pick at the scab. ] (])
	:::Incidentally, CurbChain's summary of the AN/I report he links above is hardly accurate. I would say that the comments which best characterize the community's reaction to it are
	:::*"Sheesh! All this over adding a nice bit of white space at the arse end of an article???",
	:::*"About the lamest thing I have ever seen here" and
	:::*"I admit I cannot discern a good faith reason for this huge dispute over something that is not an issue. This ANI section should be closed."
	:::I think that would be appropriate here as well. ] (]) 03:45, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::I'm certain that you can add extra spacing for your own personal viewing pleasure by just modifying your own personal ] or ] file? Almost all navboxes use the navbox class, so it would seem trivial to add extra padding at the top of the navboxes if that's what you like. I'm sure someone at ] could help you do it. I, personally, don't see the point in adding it to the wikitext, when there is a perfectly suitable CSS solution. ] ] 03:52, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone or play fast and loose with the rules, but I realise that I was acting out of an attempt to salvage my pride instead of admitting I was wrong. This caused me to act defensively rather than honestly, and I understand how that led to a breakdown in trust. I take full responsibility for that. I never meant to cause confusion or frustration, but I can see how I did. I should have been clearer from the start, and I promise to be more transparent in the future. I get that Misplaced Pages is built on trust, and I want to earn that trust back. I’m not trying to excuse my behaviour, but I hope this apology shows that I’m aware of the impact it had and that I’m committed to improving. I pledge that I won’t use AI for WP editing in the future. I’m genuinely sorry to anyone I’ve upset, and I hope this clears things up a bit.
	:::::Seriously? ''Seriously?''
			] • ] ⚽ 16:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::My reaction now is the same reaction I had when I trouted BMK for this in the diff above: ''who the hell cares''? Except even more so now. I admit that I like BMK's version better. I don't really understand why he cares so much about it, but I ''definitely'' don't understand why anyone would care enough to revert it. This is, '''''again''''', a '''''single''''' line of whitespace. This shouldn't even warrant a discussion on a talk page, much less a thread on ANI, even ''less'' the '''''three''''' threads on ANI that I think this makes. This is the dumbest thing ever. We need to drop this and never speak of it again. ] ]] 04:05, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Thank you for this. ]] 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::{{nao}}{{ec}} Or it's maybe possible to make it a user preference. Adding it to some articles and not all articles leaves a non-uniform spacing at bottom, and that can mess with someone who ''did'' have that set up in CSS/JS. I think it should be left to CSS/JS/prefs not adding it manually in WT at bottom of page. On the other hand, I think this is honestly inappropriate for AN/I, as it's little more than a disagreement on how the article spacing should be created. Just my two cents. Yeah, this really shouldn't be hashed out here. Ever. Again. ] &#124; ] 04:06, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			::You're welcome, I'd really like to put this situation behind us and move on. ] • ] ⚽ 17:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Well, if that was written without AI tools (GPTzero still says it was 100% written by AI, but it looks a lot more "human" to me than your previous efforts) then you can at least write without them. ] (]) 17:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::To be fair, @], I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... ] (]) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:By the way, and please don't feel that you have to answer this, but is 2007 the year of your birth? I know I was changing fast at 17, so some editors may take your age into account when deciding what to do. ] (]) 17:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from ]. ] • ] ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I appreciate the maturity in acknowledging your errors. I’d like to clarify this as it’s something I avoided mentioning.
			:The use of AI is not prohibited but heavily frowned upon. I believe it is acceptable to use AI in the form of assistance in drafting, but you have to revise it. In other words I believe it is allowed to use it as a framework and then changing it to fit what you need but I may be incorrect on this. Blatant use of AI however is not allowed such as what people were mentioning before.
			:<br>
			:English is my second language and as such, I have historically used AI to help me with drafting things and then changing it fully to be in my words so that I’m not completely starting from scratch. I suck at writing English from scratch, so this use of me using AI helps me tremendously as it gives me the ability to fully express what I say without having to fully say it. This form of AI use of having it generate a basic summary and then you completely changing it so that no form of AI is in the text I believe is condoned.
			:<br>
			:I am not sure about the exact specifics of what AI use is allowed but I’d like to point out that I am able to write when it’s my thoughts but then when it comes to having to write stuff within guidelines and manual of styles, I end up tensing up and my brain completely cannot create anything. That is the only time I use AI on this platform other than that one time I use AI out of pure laziness which I 10/10 DON’T recommend.
			:<br>
			:I am not sure if this above is correct so I would appreciate if someone here especially @] clarified if this is allowed or not. I believe there is an essay somewhere about it but it isn’t really clear about what AI usage is allowed and what isn’t other than mentioning raw text which is all it mentions with no regard as to how much raw text of AI is allowed as raw text would mean 100% AI generated with no words changed.
			:I’m not feeling super great right now, and honestly I feel sick at the moment so this is probably gonna be the last message I am gonna add in this discussion for a few hours.
			:<br>
			:Cheers,<br>
			:] (]) 19:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::You are looking for ]. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. ]] 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Courtesy pings to increase discussion as the following pings all commented in the sections prior.
			:@]
			:@]
			:@]
			:@]
			:{{ping|Black Kite}}
			:{{ping|Bugghost}}
			:{{ping| isaacl}}
			:{{ping| CommunityNotesContributor}}
			:{{ping| Randy Kryn}}
			:{{ping|Bbb23}}
			:{{ping| Cullen328}}
			:{{ping| Simonm223}}
			:{{ping|Folly Mox}}
			:{{ping| Bgsu98}}
			:{{ping|Yamla}}
			:Sorry for the delay CNC.
			:Cheers, <br> ] (]) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. ] (]) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Please don't send mass ping ] to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. ] (]) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Yes, of course, a very good statement of contrition and hope for future editing (hopefully not all AI). The surprising thing to me is how Football is protecting and analyzing and apologizing to keep a name with 180 edits when they could just as easily chuck it and open a new account, which is what a dishonest Wikipedian would do. Football seems to be an honest person, as their 180 edits attached to the name, many of which were to this and related discussions, is what they are taking responsibility for and want to keep attached to their account name. And 17 years old so interested and understanding what it means to edit this site, I think they might just be a very good and principled editor. ] (]) 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:49.206.48.151 ==
	{{od}} It's disruptive, aggravating and pointless. He's been asked not to do it for years now. My preferred solution would be a week-long block on the next occasion, doubled for every future infraction. Unfortunately BMK will always have interference run for him by the sort of well-meaning but naive enablers evident above. In the end, BMK is but one man, and so ultimately his idiosyncrasies will be ironed out of articles despite his efforts. In the meantime, editors should simply revert his more common problematic edits on sight. ] (]) 04:37, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	:His last block in 2010 for a 3RR violation was for 24 hours. According the theory of escalating blocks, any perceived infraction of any sort should be for 48 hours, not a week. Long term editor. Jus' sayin'. ] ] 04:45, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			Please keep ] off my talk page . See also . --] (]) 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:My thoughts exactly Chris. ] when you say, "... WT ...", what do you mean? (Do you mean Misplaced Pages talk pages?) The issue is that ] adds this formatting to only the pages he edits. I started a discussion at the appropriate venue, the admin who closed ] to determine if all pages should be formatted per ]'s reasoning and he choose not to participate in the discussion. As mentioned by ], an administator (in the same section): "The only real harm is the minor annoyance of having to manually verify every one of BMK's edits to ensure he hasn't snuck any whitespace in.". Germane to the topic, he is reverting people who are removing the whitespace. Yes it is disruptive because many editors have told him to stop, and as pointed out by ], this has been going on for years.] (]) 04:49, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			:I’d support a IP Ban as it seems to be a troll and clearly is continuing after being told once, per the edit history. ] (]) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	::For what it's worth, I also find these "comments" to be annoying and unnecessary. Articles should present the same and not have idiosyncratic formatting inserted. If BMK believes extras spacing is needed, he should work with the folks who design the way text is laid out in mediawiki and those who create the skins used by Misplaced Pages, not take it upon himself to "fix" it in this idiosyncratic manner. I can attest that he ''does'' revert this crap back in when other editors remove it and even edit wars to maintain it in articles that he imagines that he ]. He needs to stop this. ] (]) 04:57, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			:I have given them a warning - if they continue, let me know. In future you should try and talk to them before coming to ANI. ]] 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::I concur. This is not a new thing for ]. <s>I multiple unrelated and separate editors complaining</s>Multiple, unrelated and separate editors complain about these formatting style edits that he makes. I see above that he continues to issue with other editors about formatting and reverts and engages in edit wars as indicated in the section ]. I concur with your statement: "He is the only editor who, even after understanding the issue, refuses to allow anyone to change "his" articles from "his" personal preferred image style.".] (]) 05:04, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			::They continued . ] (]) 15:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Nearly 68,000 edits for BMK, nearly 74% of them in article space, since 2009. Three blocks, 2 of them reversed, all in 2010 (two years ago). He can't be that bad, folks. RfC/U, maybe? ] ] 05:12, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	::You suggested this the last time. Should we go ahead with it this time?] (]) 05:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)		:::Blocked, thanks. ]] 15:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	:::I would not recommend it if were for a blocking thing, to tell you the truth. I am not familiar enough with the whitespacing issue to comment on it, but I've known BMK for some time and firmly believe him ''not'' to be a disruptive editor that needs an advanced block schedule to prevent further disruption. ] ] 05:26, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	* I like BMK's white space, which should actually be the default in this now footer-happy encyclopedia. I also hate Manual of Style thuggery, which reverting BMK on this matter smacks of... ] (]) 05:15, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	:If this was the case, then the MoS should be changed to standardize ALL articles to this formatting. As mentioned already, we have CSS/JS/prefs to handle this and that is where it should be handled. Personal preferences are technical issues which are resolved the software.] (]) 05:23, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' any blocks per Writ Keeper. Interested parties should start a RfC on the topic at hand (insertion of blank line before navboxes.) MOS stuff can be highly contentious... ] (]) 05:19, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	:A pertinent discussion was started on the pertinent page ] he did not participate. So a RfC needs to be started?] (]) 05:28, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			== 2403:580E:EB64:0::/64: disruptive changes to UK nationalities ==
	===Previous RfC/U on same editor===
			{{atop|1=Blocktannia rules the page. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	We been taken for fools for quite some time: Under ]'s first ], ], a RfC/U had already been filed for the exact same disruption he has been perputrating for years. ]. Germane to the topic? ] #3: "Edit warring and specifying image size against consensus".
			] is an intermittent but disruptive editor whose last edit was today (my time) and who seems to have quite a bee in their bonnet about describing people or things as English ... they very much prefer them to be described as British. They use highly emotive and inflammatory edit summaries to make their point, ranging from ] to ]. They have been warned in ] and ] in ]. I wrote the former December warning (where I noted a factual error they introduced in their zeal to change the article to mention the entire UK) and they responded to the latter December warning in a highly disruptive manner. I think some sort of block is in order, at the very least. It's hard to communicate with /64 editors like this but I and other editors have tried our best, additionally including ], which they haven't violated in their last two article edits (though one could argue ] violated their warning). ] (]) 15:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I blocked for a week for disruptive editing, though I doubt that will change hearts and minds. ] (]) 16:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== New Family Family Rises Again ==
	According to ], there was no edit warring taking place, but there sure is now.
			{{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:31, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|New Family Family Rises Again}}
			Some odd initial edits to their own user page, and then falsely adding the admin top icon to a user blocked several years ago, for among other things, impersonating an administrator. Probably a sock, but even if not, something is amiss. ] (]) 16:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	I propose a ban from the project as this is long term abuse and his behaviour has obviously not changed.] (]) 05:57, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Oh, I didn't even initially realize those odd initial edits were back in 2020, around the time when said other user was blocked. ] (]) 16:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			::That this was the user's first edit in 5 years is definitely strange. I reverted their latest one. ] (]) 18:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I have blocked New Family Family Rises Again as not here to build an encyclopedia. We do not need trolls who lie, even if their editing is infrequent. ] (]) 19:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}

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Wikihounding by Awshort

user Awshort has been selectively invoking rules on the article for Taylor Lorenz. It has taken me some time to really see how it was happenening, but finally today wrote this post on the talk page with examples of how they have been selectively and hypocritically enforcing rules on me (a new user).

Additionally, as I mentioned in that post, at one point they accused me of asking another editor for help...which doesn't make any sense? It seems like they were trying to imply to me that I had done something wrong, but I read over some rules first to make sure I was allowed to ask for help. I'm still pretty sure I am! If not...let me know?

After my post today, Awshort started Wikihoundingme.

Here are diffs where they follow me around to pages it doesn't appear they have had any interest in prior:

°1

° 2

°3 Now, I will of course acknowledge that on the third example, I did make a mistake. I thought I had only removed the text of the sentence, but looks as though I accidentally deleted part of the template too. I am unsure how that happened, so I will try to figure that out.

Either way, Awshort's edit summary was not the language I hope experienced editors would use with newer editors like myself. I have mentioned multiple times in conversations that user Awshort is part of that I am a newer user, so they likely know that. ____

I'll end by saying that this user's behavior is making me reconsider whether I want to devote any time to improving wikipedia. Truly. I've never made a report like this before, anywhere in my life, just to give you a sense of how frustrating and upsetting its been.

I hope that this is the right forum for this. If not, my apologies, and please let me know where to redirect this to.

Thanks for taking a look.Delectopierre (talk) 08:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Delectopierre, if you have had any discussions where you actually tried to talk out your differences with this editor, please provide a link to them. They might be on User talk pages or article talk pages or noticeboards. But it's typically advised that you communicate directly with an editor before opening a case on ANI or AN and don't rely on communication like edit summaries. Also, if you haven't, you need to notify any editors you mention about this discussion. They should be invited to participate here. Liz 09:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

There isn't. I don't feel comfortable discussing wikihounding with them. It is, after all, harassment. Delectopierre (talk) 09:20, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Although I did link to my post today where I confronted them with their behavior (except the wikihounding, as it hadn't happened yet). So that is an attempt to discuss the other part.

But after I tried to discuss it, instead of responding to it, they started wikhounding me. Delectopierre (talk) 09:22, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe you should spend less energy “confronting” and more energy discussing and trying to learn from more experienced editors. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 13:38, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I try to learn when experienced editors engage with me in a helpful and respectful manner. Your comment does not fit that description.

As an aside, I wasn't aware that non-admin, IP-only editors, who are not involved with the incidents I've reported would be participating in this discussion. Delectopierre (talk) 23:52, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I've notified Awshort as it still hasn't been done. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:05, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, ActivelyDisinterested for doing so. User:Delectopierre, you should have notified User:Awshort yourself, there are messages instructing editors to do so all over this page including on the edit notice that you see any time you post a comment here. As I said, you are also advised to discuss disputes first with involved editors before posting on a noticeboard. ANI is where you come for urgent, intractable problems, it's the last place you go when other methods of dispute resolution haven't worked. This also looks like a standard content disagreement regarding Taylor Lorenz and the fact that Awshort reverted one of your edits. Liz 21:15, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Liz as I noted above, I attempted to discuss their behavior on the article here, and their response was to wikihound me.

As I said here I don't feel comfortable discussing what feels like and seems to be harrasment, directly with them, as it felt like intimidation to stop confronting them about what I see as bad behavior on the article. I was waiting for a reply to that statement before proceeding.

Is there really no process that allows for an instance when an editor feels uncomfortable? Delectopierre (talk) 23:31, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I will also add that it appears as though this is not the first occurrence of this type of behavior, based on this comment by @Twillisjr. I don't, however, know any of the details. Delectopierre (talk) 23:35, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Re-reading your comment, @Liz:

I think I’ve been unclear. The content dispute is a content dispute. You’re right about that.

That is NOT why I posted here. I posted here because the content dispute spilled off that article and has now resulted in wikihounding. The wikihounding, specifically, is why I posted here. Delectopierre (talk) 05:08, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I have closed the discussion with the rationale "Nothing more to do here. See WP:NOTFORUM and WP:HOUND." KOLANO12 3 13:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Could you please explain your rationale? I don’t follow. Delectopierre (talk) 17:36, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

First, thank you ActivelyDisinterested for the initial ping and Liz for the follow-up ping. The majority of this is over the Taylor Lorenz article as a whole, but there have been some policy issues sprinkled throughout. Delectopierre anyone can participate in noticeboard discussions whether involved or not, the 'IP-only editor' you referenced has more edits than both of us combined, and registration is not a requirement to edit Misplaced Pages nor participate in community noticeboards.

they follow me around to pages it doesn't appear they have had any interest in prior - That isn't accurate since I post on the BLPN often, as well as using it to find articles I can help out on since I mainly focus on editing BLP's. I checked out the BLPN, noticed it was missing a discussion of interest from earlier in the day (Maynard James Keenan) and checked the edit history to see if it was removed for a reason. I saw the previous edit by DP had removed it as well as another discussion so I restored it. That wasn't me 'hounding' them, that was me fixing an error so other discussions could continue. I checked DP's edit history later to see if any similar edits had been made recently in case those needed fixed as well, saw the edit history for this edit with the summary critics don't accuse him of anti-semitism. he is an antisemite, and checked the edit which had been changed to calling the person that. The prior edit had the edit summary of adding back david icke qualifier, so I checked that one as well since I assumed it would be similar. When it was confirmed, I reverted since it seemed a BLP violation as well as WP:LIBEL. Since there was a talk page discussion regarding the prior one, I posted that I had removed it from another article as well, in case it went to a noticeboard both could be noted. It is worth noting that the edit I removed was originally added a few months prior by the same user. I think most editors would have acted in the similar manner regarding the edits and I stand behind them.

I think Awshort's edit summary was not the language I hope experienced editors would use with newer editors like myself. is somewhat disingenuous when on their first full day of editing the Lorenz article after being registered since 2018 and mostly inactive they seemed to know enough policies to quote them in their edit summaries (WP:AVOIDVICTIM, WP:BLPBALANCE, WP:PUBLICFIGURE), their post that to BLPN referenced NPOV,  as well as learning other policies that were left on their talk page (CTOP by TheSandDoctor, NPOV by Little Professor).

And it's hard to reply to the linked conversation above where it's implied I'm hounding in the closing comments with only one side of the story presented.

Awshort (talk) 13:50, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

"I checked DP's edit history later to see if any similar edits had been made recently in case those needed fixed as well,"

That is the definition of hounding:

"Hounding on Misplaced Pages (or "wikihounding") is the singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work."

I don't understand how this isn't open and shut. Delectopierre (talk) 21:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

The same section that you're quoting also says Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. (bold added) Schazjmd (talk) 21:56, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

There is nothing related about the other articles they followed me to, and I fail to see how the problems are related. The only common denominator is me. They will, I'm sure, say they're all BLP. Doesn't matter, tons of this encyclopedia is BLP and if Awshort feels I shouldn't be editing any BLP, there are methods of addressing that belief that don't include following me around wikipedia to make sure I don't do anything they disagree with. Delectopierre (talk) 04:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

It's only hounding if they act on it. You need to show at least a few diffs that they are editing on a page you are editing, and they would not have been interested in it otherwise. If they are stalking your history, but do nothing, its technically non-actionable. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 22:17, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Those diffs are in my original post. Delectopierre (talk) 04:30, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Also going "this editor made problmatic edits, I should check their history to make sure they haven't made more, and fix any others they've made" is most assuredly not hounding. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:39, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

After a long winded disagreement on a talk page that included them starting multiple edit wars, my view is there are much better ways of addressing this. For example, they could have started a conversation on my talk page.

Additionally, who is to say which edits are problematic? I view a number of edits Awshort made as problematic, so I disengaged from the conversation rather than continuing to go in circles.

Lastly, could you help me understand how a non-admin editor checking another editor's history and reverting their edits is not hounding? It seems to fit the definition of hounding.

Delectopierre (talk) 04:36, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Easy. Someone sees you made an edit they consider problematic. They go and check your other edits to see if you made other problematic edits. They revert any problematic edits they find. Being an admin or not has nothing to do with it. If they continually do this over a period of time, then it may be hounding. If they go through it once because they noticed something, it's not. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks. Delectopierre (talk) 21:33, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

After a long winded disagreement on a talk page that included them starting multiple edit wars - Ignoring the dig about 'long winded disagreement' and just pointing out the following since I was accused yet again of something else

## 'Attempts to discredit her work'
1. Inclusion of RollingStone reference and 'attempts to discredit her work' text by DP on Aug 17, 24
2. FMSky removes on Dec 11 with WP:ROLLINGSTONEPOLITICS as reason.
3. Reverted by DP Dec 13, empty edit summary.
4. Removed again by FMSky with same edit summary
5. Reverted by DP with no edit summary, again
6. FMSky moves text further down based on what the included reference says.
7. Reverted by DP

## 'Doxxing standard part of the reporting process'
1. Insertion of text about doxxing, 'standard part of the reporting process' by DP Aug 17, 24
2. Removed in Nov 27 by myself, as it was already included with the same reference earlier in the paragraph.
3. Reverted shortly after by DP
4. Removed on Nov 28 with a quote on what the text of the included reference actually stated, which was not what was included.

## Podcast
1. Podcast section added Aug 17 by DP
2. Removed some of the podcast text that seemed promotional and wasn't supported by the included reference Nov 27
3. Reverted by DP Nov 27
4. Removed both the Podcast reinsertion, and the previous reporting texts on Nov 28 with the same reasoning and asked to take it to TP and try to obtain consensus before insertion again.

## 'Assaulted'
1. Harassment section which included 'assaulted' added Aug 17 by DP
2. Removed the word assaulted from the harassment section on Nov 28 since it was covered in her career section.
3. Reverted by DP on Dec 3 as WP:OR
4. Removed per talk, undue, and covered in Career Dec 14

## 'Coordinated'
1. Vegan416 removed the word coordinated under BLP grounds (accusing Tucker Carlson of coordinating attacks) Dec 14
2. Re-insertion by DP on Dec 24
3. Removed per WP:SYNTH since the word wasn't in the included reference on Dec 24

It isn't limited to just this article, though.

## 'Anti-Semitic'
1. Anti-Semitic label of David Icke added on April 9
2. removed by Zane362 Nov 11
3. Re-added by DP Dec 26
4. Removal by myself on Dec 27

It seems like the very definition of WP:OWNBEHAVIOR An editor reverts justified article changes by different editors repeatedly over an extended period to protect a certain version, stable or not. This isn't entirely an "I don't like Awshort messing with my edits" issue; this is a "I don't like anyone messing with my edits" issue.

Coincidentally, its also covered in WP:HOUND at WP:HA#NOT: It is also not harassment to track a user's contributions for policy violations (see above); that is part of what editor contribution histories are for. Editors do not own article content, or their own edits, and any other editor has the right to revert edits as appropriate. Unwarranted resistance to such efforts may be a sign of ownership behavior and lead to sanctions.

On almost every attempt to edit text inserted by DP, be it by other editors or myself, editors are met with resistance. That includes when their text that was inserted is changed in any manner, including being reworded or moved.

Awshort (talk) 19:59, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from User:DarwIn

User:DarwIn, a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is harassing me here after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. Skyshiftertalk 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use {{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~ on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --Yamla (talk) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics (Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is targeting the DYK nomination, again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute.

Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. Skyshiftertalk 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --Yamla (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally edited the DYK page and put a "disagree", despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. His comment is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, he insisted saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, he reincluded the comment. I asked him to stop harassing me, but he has edited the page again.

I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. Skyshiftertalk 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already blocked at the Portuguese Wikipédia and Wikimedia Commons, the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, with an open case for sockpuppetry at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please. Darwin 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. Skyshiftertalk 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which you are well known for abusing whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. Darwin 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

And here's explicit transphobia. It's her daughter, no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. Skyshiftertalk 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. Skyshiftertalk 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  • Comment I would suggest Darwin review MOS:GENDERID. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. Simonm223 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    @Simonm223 I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? Darwin 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    @DarwIn, the bottom line is that you don't get to question that. As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is not the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them any good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. Blue Sonnet (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. Darwin 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read Thamirys Nunes' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). Skyshiftertalk 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. Darwin 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including MOS:GENDERID) - otherwise you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. Darwin 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here.

    Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there.

    And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. Eduardo G. 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the WP:GENSEX area.Simonm223 (talk) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I would suggest a topic ban is imposed. GiantSnowman 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I would support a topic ban from WP:GENSEX. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. GiantSnowman 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? Darwin 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. Darwin 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    @GiantSnowman nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. Darwin 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. Darwin 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    You fundementally misunderstand the scope of WP:BLP and the concept of topic area as well. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. Darwin 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    it was a collective you. Darwin 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. Nil Einne (talk) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

    None of this is relevant. We follow sources and MOS:GENDERID. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. GiantSnowman 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I've continued to post where? Darwin 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? Darwin 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? GiantSnowman 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@DarwIn The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have my own disagreements with that guideline, and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. Darwin 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? Darwin 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@DarwIn This one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Ad Orientem I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. Darwin 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@DarwIn Easiest way to defuse this is to post a bolded and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" Darwin 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. GiantSnowman 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. Darwin 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. Darwin 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 Darwin 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. Darwin 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? Darwin 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Because of edits like this . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? Darwin 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? Darwin 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  I answered a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. Darwin 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. Darwin 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway. Darwin 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Isaidnoway I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. Darwin 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary one-way interaction ban, broadly construed, as in effect. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Isaidnoway yes, that's correct. Darwin 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about righting great wrongs in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. Isabelle Belato 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? Darwin 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. Isabelle Belato 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Isabelle Belato You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me in the English Misplaced Pages? Darwin 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @The Bushranger Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? Darwin 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Would recommend that Darwin walk away from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Clarification

• Hello @Nil Einne - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in my country, to the point of eventually configuring a crime here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much.
• As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ILGA Portugal, which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that.
• The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here.
• Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan.
• And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. Darwin 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Proposed Community Sanctions

I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this.

Proposed DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to WP:GENSEX broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. PS - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. GoodDay (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? TarnishedPath 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support topic ban and IBAN, both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. GiantSnowman 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Just read through the above and good grief. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. Simonm223 (talk) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. Ymblanter (talk) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

That's actually a fair point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent WP:RGW impulse. Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Simonm223 You have been misjudging me - It was quite the opposite, actually, if it's worth anything. Darwin 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the WP:GENSEX area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. Simonm223 (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Simonm223 OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). Darwin 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

If they weren't before they are now... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok, to be clear, I oppose a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. Ymblanter (talk) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. Darwin 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back And those were the only ones, and I voluntarily stopped them yesterday immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to my stance here. You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. Darwin 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? Darwin 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽‍♂️ Darwin 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? Darwin 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back There was not any "lie", please stop assuming bad faith. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". Darwin 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Darwin has a long history of editing in WP:GENSEX albeit generally less controversially. an example. Simonm223 (talk) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Simonm223 That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. Darwin 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  DarwIn WP:GENSEX covers gender and sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Simonm223 Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. Darwin 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support per Bushranger. charlotte 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. Springee (talk) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Pppery: days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ⇒SWATJester 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Support Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. Nil Einne (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Nil Einne What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? Darwin 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @DarwIn: Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times #c-DarwIn-20241229133200-Skyshifter-20241229132800, #c-DarwIn-20241229152900-Simonm223-20241229150600, #c-DarwIn-20241229154200-Blue-Sonnet-20241229154000, #c-DarwIn-20241229154100-Simonm223-20241229153800, #c-DarwIn-20241229160700-GiantSnowman-20241229154400, #c-DarwIn-20241229172200-Ad_Orientem-20241229171800. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like thought police. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here. Darwin 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. Darwin 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  User:DarwIn, I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. Liz

  @Liz: Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that. Darwin 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  @DarwIn: you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. Nil Einne (talk) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

  For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. Nil Einne (talk) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it.

MiasmaEternal☎ 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - Per GoodDay and Springee. Ciridae (talk) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.Boynamedsue (talk) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of MOS:GENDERID may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer WP:AGF. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN/IBAN Weak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN - WP:NQP suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate WP:NOTHERE behavior. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

"A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. EEng 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. EEng 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

OK boomer. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. EEng 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.Boynamedsue (talk) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP WP:DROPTHESTICK - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. Simonm223 (talk) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. Simonm223 (talk) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of WP:PG, and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN.

sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour there would be no mention of WP:NPA. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture continues to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. Simonm223 (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as unnecessary given the commitments already given. WaggersTALK 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Let's not. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). Edited to include edit conflict comment. CNC (talk) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am assuming you haven't spent much time in places WP:FTN where religious belief and persons of faith are not infrequently and quite openly subject to ridicule. Racism is a subject upon which society has happily come to more or less full agreement. Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other. I shall refrain from further comment out of deference to WP:FORUM. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC) Fringe ideas get ridiculed at FTN regardless of whether or not they are religious... That so many fringe views are also religious is more a result of the supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual being inherently fringe than any problem with FTN. Religion which is rational and explainable isn't religion any more after all. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC) Thank you for affirming my point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC) Your point was that "Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other." Right? Like for example the LGBTQ grooming conspiracy theory or is that not the side you were thinking of? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC) No. I was thinking of people who regularly insult and ridicule religious belief and those who hold to it. Something which based on your comment, does not seem to be a source of concern to you. That said, this discussion is veering deep into WP:FORUM territory and I am going to move on. Have a good day. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC) I don't think I've ever seen any of those people suggest that trans people are demons, or did you mean demonize in a way other than literally saying that the other side is demonic/satan's minions? Becuase that would be highly ironic... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC) I am reaching the uncomfortable conclusion that you are attempting to be deliberately offensive. And for the record, you are succeeding. Good day. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC) You weren't aware that a cornerstone of the gender controversy was religious conservatives resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other? Because that is well documented in reliable sources. I don't think you're the one who is supposed to be offended here, you're the one saying what appear to be extremely offensive things and are being asked to clarify what you meant. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC) (edit conflict) I think a significant point here is that while we may tolerate some degree of forumish and offensive comment about gender or race or religions from editors when they are restricted to largely abstract comment or even when they reference other editors, it's far more of a problem when the editors make offensive accusations about living persons especially when these are completely unrelated to any discussion about how to cover something (noting that the editor continued to make the comment even after they had noted how the English wikipedia treats issues). So for example, if someone says a specific religious figure is delusion or lying in relation to how we treat their testimony that might barely be acceptable. When someone just comes out and says it repeatedly for no reason, that's far more of a problem. Especially if the figure is someone barely notable and not notable (as was the case here for one of the individuals each). Nil Einne (talk) 22:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

This is affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Comment This is definitely not the ideal place to discuss the subject since the whole problem originated with pt.wiki, but since the editor came here asking for help (for the right reasons or not), I will draw attention to the case of the admin accused of transphobia. This is not the first time that DarwIn has been singled out due to his comments on the subject (he has already given several examples of this here), but there is an official pt.wiki community on Telegram where the editor has already been criticized for making such comments. There, they were also celebrating Skyshifter's ban (DarwIn commented something like "as a man he was 100%, after transitioning he became unbearable" to refer to her). As much as they try not to link the group to the project, to use this chat you need to associate your Misplaced Pages credentials, so I am concerned that pt.wiki admins could be seen spreading speeches against minorities in an official space of the project, since Misplaced Pages is the target of attacks for investing in equity and diversity. In addition to this comment, the admin was also extremely rude and crude towards a Misplaced Pages research group that discusses gender, sexuality and race. Again, this is not the ideal place to comment on these issues, but I suggest that the case be submitted to Wikimedia if any intervention or something more incisive is necessary. The local community can accuse me of anything for writing these words, but I am concerned about the escalation of editorial harassment within that space. PS: The editor was mocking this discussion in the Telegram group while I was writing this. Jardel (talk) 01:57, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Came back after a month with no edits for this? It's quite clear Jardel is taking something personal with DarwIn here. Or he doesn't have anything to do at the moment. And he didn't have such great writing and narrative in his mother tongue, now is writing perfect, well written English. That gets stranger considering he's partially blocked in ptwiki for some beefing with other editors (block discussion in portuguese)... Quite strange, to say the least. Eduardo G. 03:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) And yes, by "quite strange" I am talking about maybe meatpuppetry. Nobody comes after a month without edits (that was preeceded by some other months before some 5-ish edits), to make an "accusation" based on unfounded arguments, especially after being blocked precisely for beefing and attacking other members of the community in his homewiki. Such a hypocrisy, a user banned for beefing accusating another user of attacks and using the word "transphobia" so vaguely. Eduardo G. 03:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) As I expected, the group participants started making accusations against me (that's why Eduardo G. appeared in this discussion) and wanted to insinuate that Skyshifter is writing this text, perhaps wanting to provoke some kind of retaliation later. First, I appreciate the compliments on my writing, which was 100% done by Google Translate; I think Google's engineering is to be congratulated. Second, I'm only here on this page because I noticed the links to this discussion in the Telegram group itself and decided to contribute with what I've been reading for a long time with great disgust. I didn't need to bring much, Darwin himself made a point of making abject comments in this discussion, but if you want, I can bring some screenshots of what they were talking about in the group. Third, I did go 1 month without editing here because my focus is not on en.wiki but on pt.wiki, where I make regular edits. I find it strange that you entered this discussion without refuting any of the arguments above, thinking that bringing up my tarnished "reputation" changes everything that was written by me or in the group. I believe it must be embarrassing to participate in a group where they are celebrating the sanctions that Skyshifter will suffer (thinking that place is a "private club") while at the same time you send cordial greetings from the "public side" to the same editor, simulating virtue. In any case, my goal here is only to reinforce that there is indeed materiality in what Skyshifter said with more evidence and once again I recommend that the discussion be evaluated by the Wikimedia team knowing that attitudes that demonstrate prejudice against minorities go against the project's investments in equity, diversity and equality. Jardel (talk) 03:52, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I will not pursue any retaliation. I'm just stating what I know of this case, and I even supported Sky when the edits were being made. People are celebrating because all of this discussion was brought to even another wiki by her. But I understand you might've written this text, and will not take the subject further. If anybody needs anything, please read the message below. Cheers. Eduardo G. 03:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) So, I don't disagree with your argument about the sanctions she's passing on the other project, unfortunately. As for "not pursue any retaliation", I don't think that's what you mean by the phrase "4 successful DBs in a row is not for everyone." directed at me. Jardel (talk) 04:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) @Jardel You're wrong, twice. First, it wasn't me saying that. It was NCC-1701, and my user in TG is Edu. And at no point did I agree with NCC's messages. And secondly, the "four DBs in a row" wasn't in anyway directed at you. It was directed to Bageense, who opened 4 block discussions in the last 2 or 3 days and all of them were successfull. You are distorting the messages to condone your erroneous narrative. Eduardo G. 04:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Well, if I am "distorting messages" to "tolerate" my narrative, anyone who wants to evaluate can join the group and read the messages posted there or see the pt.wiki discussion against the Projeto Mais Teoria da História na Wiki and talk to its members to see what their opinion is on the matter. I may not be a perfect person, but what I see with great displeasure (coming from those who are "in charge of the gears") is not positive for the project. Jardel (talk) 04:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Joining the group the community would then have no doubts about your intents and distortion of facts. You didn't deny the two things I said above — you know I'm right, you can't bend the facts this much. Eduardo G. 04:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) As a ptwiki user that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage (here)/in her UP, thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the block discussion (in portuguese). The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it. This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone. I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my portuguese talk page (direct url). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. Eduardo G. 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community "worms, scoundrels, trash and deniers". And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user already tried to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, went to Meta-Wiki in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. InvictumAlways (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC) It is pretty clear thay the intents of Jardel here are disruptive. Your comment hopefully leaves no doubt to the community. Eduardo G. 04:53, 31 December 2024 (UTC) As I said above, I am not a perfect person. I may have used foul language to address some editors in a moment of anger, but I felt vulnerable and hurt by editors I held in high regard, and I apologize for what I wrote in the past. Likewise, I do not think it is right that a social channel that is reported as "linked to Misplaced Pages" is being used as a bar where people can say whatever they want, especially when it comes to prejudiced comments against minorities. At no time did I label all of them, only one of them demonstrated that she was doing so. If I happen to receive any sanction for this discussion, and knowing that bringing issues from pt.wiki here is not ideal, I will receive it for doing the right thing, because I want something to change for the better in a project that I have dedicated so much time to contributing to. I may be prevented from editing on Misplaced Pages, but if what I bring here helps to change something, I will be happy. Jardel (talk) 05:01, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

InvictumAlways - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? jellyfish ✉ 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

@Jardel The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, as you said yourself previously. Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• Supporting both IBAN and TBAN. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
• Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. Nil Einne (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain.

concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Children cannot consent, their parents can. (CC) Tbhotch 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--Boynamedsue (talk) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? Nil Einne (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. Simonm223 (talk) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support TBAN, no comment on IBAN. This is blatant POV harassment. (CC) Tbhotch 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- Patar knight - /_{contributions} 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose any sanctions I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate WP:OR on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. Dronebogus (talk) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support TBAN, indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this WP:NOTHERE type editing, whether it is attempting to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS or simply WP:BLUDGEONING discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. CNC (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose Skyshifter, if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to deëscelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. JayCubby 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite (here) to boot. Relm (talk) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY.

Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am.

Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages.

I support the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community.

I oppose with the IP-ban because if anything this SHOULD’VE ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing.

Reader of Information (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. Relm (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents.

NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent.

Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

This reply reminded me of the essay WP:CLUE. CNC (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. Reader of Information (talk) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. TarnishedPath 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at Special:Diff/1267644460 accusing me of coming to their talk page to "further troll me with this nonsense warning". TarnishedPath 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --Aquillion (talk) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Skyshifter taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge.

100% affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this WP:BOOMERANGs on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. Liz 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC) The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. On the 29th of December, User:Skyshifter started an AN/I based on a claim that User:DarwIn, a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination here. AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate. She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log. This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage (here and in her UP), casting aspersions over other users and using ducks and meatpuppets to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it here, with all the proofs). The block discussion taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever. Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was personal and for revenge. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under pt:WP:NDD, here called WP:ASPERSIONS I think, and disruptive editing/WP:POINT, and in the AN/I above she's commiting WP:BLUDGEON, repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment. Eduardo G. 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC) @Eduardo Gottert: You need to provide evidence when opening an ANI thread, not on request. Nil Einne (talk) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) '@Nil Einne The evidences are above. I said if you need any further evidence, you may ask. All of the necessary evidence are on the request. Eduardo G. 06:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Where's the evidence? What we know is that DarwIn came here despite little involvement and made a highly offensive statement that can reasonably be characterised as transphobic. While I don't feel Sky Shifter should have described it so, better to let others decide, it was entirely reasonable for Sky Shifter to call for action against DarwIn for it. What is your evidence that they did it for revenge instead of for the fact that after a disagreement with DarwIn in a different wiki, DarwIn suddenly appeared in this wiki, one they themselves agree they barely edit, to make a highly offensive statement that Sky Shifter reasonably felt was transphobic. After doing so, they then appeared on ANI to make similar highly offensive statements were they made offensive accusations against living based on their own opinion. Nil Einne (talk) 06:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Honestly, the argument is pretty clear above. Eduardo G. 06:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) If you agree you're wrong then please withdraw this ANI. Nil Einne (talk) 06:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I did not agree in any place that I am wrong. I just stated that the evidence is pretty clear above, with all the block discussions and diffs needed for understanding the problem. Eduardo G. 06:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Your statement was very unclear. You said "the argument" which I interpreted to mean my argument. If you're still claiming your argument is clear, then please explain how it can be when part of your argument is it was unfair for Sky Shifter to go around saying "transphobia" when many of us agree that even if it was unnecessary, it was not unsupported given the comments DarwIn was making do seem to be transphobic. Nil Einne (talk) 06:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC) As we were talking about my evidence, I think saying "the argument" clearly refer to me. And as to the reason for the opening of this ANI, it's because the revenge seeking of Skyshifter. Eduardo G. 06:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I wouldn't say it doesn't considering as I said, one of the reasons your argument was flawed, but you didn't address that in any way. Nothing you've said above or since has explained why you're claiming Sky Shifter using the word "transphobic" is evidence for "revenge" when it's a reasonable characterisation of what DarwIn said. Nil Einne (talk) 06:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) (edit conflict) I would add it's very unclear what you thinking you're adding that wasn't already considered above. In the above thread a 1 way iban on DarwIn seems to be getting serious consideration. A two way iban seems to have been rejected based on the assessment that whatever the wrongs with Sky Shifter's approach, it wasn't serious enough to warrant an iban. The fact that Sky Shifter was in a dispute with DarwIn on other wikis, and DarwIn was involved in their blocked is likewise not a secret, part of it was stated by Sky Shifter when opening the thread and the rest was stated by DarwIn. The sock allegation likewise. So what do you think you're adding to the discussion that wasn't already considered and seemingly rejected by the community above? Nil Einne (talk) 06:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC) It is time for a WP:BOOMERANG. You already said all of that above. You seem to have been canvassed here from a discussion outside of this wiki. Go back there and let them know cross wiki harassment will get you blocked here. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I added more evidence and context. Eduardo G. 06:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) You simply cast aspersions as part of a cross wiki harassment campaign against someone over transgender related issues. You are not here to build an encyclopedia. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 06:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Your statement doesn't even make sense. Eduardo G. 06:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC) We can add WP:CIR to the reasons you are blocked then. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 06:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC) Am I? And where am I in violation of WP:CIR? Eduardo G. 06:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I used plain English and you said you couldn't comprehend it. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 06:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I thought it was pretty well determined in that prior ANI thread that DarwIn's edits and statements absolutely were transphobic and bigoted. Silverseren 06:07, 31 December 2024 (UTC) The reason for the AN/I opens is still the same, revenge. Eduardo G. 06:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I've read many of the posts on the Portuguese wiki, and it is pretty clear that the Skyshifter's complaint above is a deliberate expansion of drama from there. The Portugese wiki is not Uganda, people do not get banned there for being Trans, and former admins don't get banned without causing a lot of disruption. It is clear these two users really strongly dislike each other and need to stop interacting in any way.--Boynamedsue (talk) 06:59, 31 December 2024 (UTC) People obviously doesn't get banned for being trans. She was sysop there, commited some errors, but stayed there even after 5 months of being on estrogen. And the community knew it. What caused her block there was calling the project a sewage and then outbreaking and attacking other users. I suggest they get a two-way IBAN, at least, not the one-way as proposed on the other AN/I. Eduardo G. 07:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I would add that unless I'm missing something, the block discussion on the Portugese Misplaced Pages seems to have been started about 30 minutes before the ANI thread . It has no contributions by DarwIn . It is theoretically possible I guess it somehow factored into the motivation of Skyshifter opening the ANI thread, but this seems extremely unlikely. There's a good chance Skyshifter wasn't even aware of it when opening the thread. In other words, there's no reason to think Skyshifter was even aware they were likely going to be permanently blocked from pt at the time of opening the thread although they did say they weren't going to return. Nil Einne (talk) 07:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC) She opened an NI, ptwiki equivalent of AN/I against DarwIn with crazy arguments. You can see it here. It was prompty closed, and she was very well aware of the consequences she would face, and of the opening of the block discussion, and clearly opened the AN/I because of that reason. The block discussion started at 1130 UTC, and the AN/I was posted at 1300, at a time that Skyshifter had already taken notice of the discussion, as you can see here. Eduardo G. 07:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC) This is very blatantly a tit-for-tat. As mentioned above there is the distinct smell of fishiness about it, and as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log - yes, the editor who has three FAs on en.wiki "came to this project" to do this. Suggest this be promptly closed as I hear a WP:BOOMERANG inbound. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I am not saying she isn't an avid used of English wiki. I just stated that she took ptwiki matters here for revenge and self-fullfillment. Eduardo G. 07:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC) If you aren't asking for any sanctions against Skyshifter, then why did you open this sub-section, just to sling some mud at her? Give it a rest already, you're just creating more drama than is necessary. Isaidnoway (talk) 08:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC) I think that the background of this dispute is very relevant. Obviously, neither Skyshifter or Darwin should face any repercussions here for behaviour on pt.wiki, but it isn't possible to understand what is happening here without discussing what happened there. For me, having read what happened over there is the main reason I wouldn't yet TBAN Darwin, and would call for a two-way rather than one way interaction ban.--Boynamedsue (talk) 08:50, 31 December 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

John40332 reported by CurryTime7-24

John40332 has been blocked sitewide. Reader of Information (talk) 01:33, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Moved from WP:AIV – ToBeFree (talk) 14:12, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

John40332 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – On Psycho (1960 film) (diff): account is being used only for promotional purposes; account is evidently a spambot or a compromised account. User's recent edits have been dedicated almost invariably to inserting links in classical music-related articles to an obscure sheet music site. Behavior appeared to be WP:REFSPAM and WP:SPA. Personal attempts to curb this behavior or reach a compromise were rejected by user. Further attempts to engage with them at WT:CM resulted in WP:ICANTHEARYOU, despite three other editors informing user that their edits appeared to be spam or some kind of advocacy. CurryTime7-24 (talk) 08:50, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Not a bot and not spamming, you just keep WP:HOUNDING me repeatedly, I cited sources to the publisher of the books in question. You appear to suffer from WP:OWN and act like I need your consent to edit the articles you feel that belong to you. You also know I'm not a compromised account, you spam Assume_good_faith on your reverts but you're mostly bullying other editors into submission.

You've been asked to stop disrupting editing https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:CurryTime7-24#January_2025 , and continue to harass any edits that touch "your" articles.

You also keep saying I add citation to obscure music sites, just because you don't know something doesn't make it obscure. Additionally, you are the only person raising this as an issue because you're extremely controlling of the articles, you don't own Misplaced Pages and hopefully some other editor or admin can remind you of that. John40332 (talk) 09:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you claiming that SheetMusicX is a reliable source for these articles? If so then someone (it may be me but I don't guarantee it) should take it to the reliable sources noticeboard. I note that several editors have queried this, not just CurryTime7-24. John40332 is clearly not a spambot or compromised account, so please avoid over-egging the pudding. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:19, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

It is reliable and listed with other respectable publishers, it's the homepage of the Canadian music publishing house Edition Zeza, their books are part of the National Library Collections, WorldCat.org shows their books in libraries around the world etc, I shouldn't even have to dig this far because 1 editor decided he WP:OWN Misplaced Pages. The links I had included provided relevant information about the articles I was editing (orchestration, dates, duration etc). Cited information from a publisher of said work, which is exactly what WP:SOURCEDEF suggests doing. John40332 (talk) 18:41, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

The editor's history does seem suspicious. From 2014 to 2023 they made a total of 24 edits to article space, almost all of which were to Charlie Siem and Sasha Siem. Then after more than a year of no edits, in the last 5 weeks they have made 38 edits to article space, of which all except three added a reference to sheetmusicx.com. This is a commercial site that sells sheet music. As far as I can see, every reference added was a link to a page that sells a particular piece of sheet music. This certainly seems like WP:REFSPAM. CodeTalker (talk) 19:00, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

So is the problem that I'm actively contributing now, or that the cited sources aren't good enough? You guys are grasping at straws at this point.user:CurryTime7-24 added links to commercial sites diff1 , such as to Fidelio Music (to which he appears to be an affiliate) and yet no one raises a flag. Even when I added a source without removing his, he removed mine diff2 to keep only his link to Fidelio Music. John40332 (talk) 19:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

There is no "you guys" here. You have exactly the same status, as a volunteer editor, as I do. I have no idea who CurryTime7-24 is, or whether that editor is an affiliate. I just know about reliable sources and that we should not be linking to any commercial site, except possibly to the original publisher of a work. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:38, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

• User:COIBot has compiled a page, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spam/Local/sheetmusicx.com of edits with links to this website. This list was not created by CurryTime7-24 but by a bot looking for instances of conflict-of-interests. All of the problems you are concerned about, John40332, would not exist if you would just stop posting links to this website. If you would agree to stop referring to sheetmusicx.com, you wouldn't be "hounded" or be defending yourself and we could close this complaint. Can you agree to that editing restriction? And, if you can't, then why are you insisting on linking to this particular website? Liz 02:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

  Because it's a valid source according to:

  WP:REPUTABLE - "Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources"

  WP:SOURCEDEF - The publisher of the work (and not only the first ever publisher, any reputable publisher of a work)

  WP:PUBLISHED - "Published means, for Misplaced Pages's purposes, any source that was made available to the public in some form."

Interestingly, "someone" (and I'm not saying it's CurryTime7-24) came to my talk page yesterday to write "kill yourself", I can only think of 1 person who is hounding me this much though, but that doesn't seem to be taken seriously. John40332 (talk) 07:29, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not "interesting", that's despicable; as is your insinuation. As for sheetmusicx as as source: for what? That they published some work? Why is that noteworthy? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:00, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

As a source for information about the work. Yes it's despicable, and as I said, no one takes it seriously, I'm not insinuating anything, admins can look into the IP themselves. John40332 (talk) 08:10, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

So, you would prefer that this dispute continue on, which could lead to sanctions for you, rather than simply stop using this website as a reference? To me, when I see that kind of behavior, it's typically a sign of a paid editor. Liz 09:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

There's no dispute, it's a reliable source and user:CurryTime7-24 makes a fuss about it because of his WP:OWN syndrome and potential WP:COI with his affiliation with Fidelio Music.

Why are you against a source that complies with WP:RELIABILITY ? John40332 (talk) 09:35, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Because your use of that source is pretty clearly intended as promotional. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:27, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

It's hard to understand how you can say "there's no dispute" when there is quite obviously a dispute; six editors in this thread alone have questioned your use of that source. You have invoked WP:RS to claim that the website is an acceptable source, but I'm not sure you have understood what that guideline says about commercial sites; they are allowed as references only to verify simple facts such as titles and running times. You have not used sheetmusicx.com for such purposes; you have used it to tell the reader where they can purchase sheet music (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc). CodeTalker (talk) 01:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I used it to add relevant information that didn't exist on Misplaced Pages.

When I added "Psycho A Narrative for String Orchestra" diff that exists since 1968 and never mentioned on Misplaced Pages, but CurryTime decided to harass me there too.

When I added the orchestration for Tambourin Chinois diff, which CurryTime decided to remove too.

I used information by the publisher to confirm facts, as per WP:RS, if commercial sources are not allowed to verify contributions, then why is everyone so quiet about CurryTime's affiliation to Fidelio Music links ? So far these comments are a good example of WP:HUNT, first I was accused of spamming, then of being a bot, then that my account was compromised, then that the source used wasn't reliable, if you run out of ideas try my religion or ethnicity. John40332 (talk) 08:50, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, you added the bit about Psycho - which included the link with the same phrasing as on the other edits where it was obvious "buy this music here". Your edits are either promotional or are indistinguishable from being promotional. That is why they are being removed. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

You have repeatedly said that CurryTime7-24 is an affiliate of Fidelio. Can you show us your evidence of that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Here he removed my source to add Fidelio Music diff1

Here again to make sure only Fidelio Music exists diff2

And obviously here, deleting what I added to include Fidelio Music exclusively diff3

Here he completely deleted everything I added about the piece as part of his WP:HOUNDING diff4 John40332 (talk) 19:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

That may be evidence of something, good or bad, but it's certainly not evidence that that editor is an affiliate. But, anyway, the action that hould have been taken a few days ago has now been taken, so we can stop talking now. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be nice if an admin would compare the IP address 181.215.89.116 that told me to kill myself on my Talk Page, to existing users, now that would be fun to find out who is so against my edits, because so far the only action was a suspension. John40332 (talk) 08:58, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Checkuser is not for fishing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

In any case the most obvious guess is: some unrelated troll who saw your name on this board. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

It appears that there is consensus here and at WT:CM against linking to Sheet Music X. Is it possible for an admin to propose a resolution here? —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 17:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The only consensus is your WP:OWN syndrome, the sources linked are reliable and fit for purpose. People have questioned my use of the source, not the reliability of it.

You created this complaint stating that I'm a spammer, a bot or a compromised account, has that consensus been reached too ? John40332 (talk) 18:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No, John40332, you are wrong about the lack of consensus, and there is clear consensus against you linking to that commercial sheet music sales site. So, either you agree to stop doing so, or you get subjected to formal sanctions. Which will it be? Cullen328 (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

So CurryTime can throw random accusations until something sticks? John40332 (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

OK, then. John40332 is indefinitely blocked from article space. The editor is free to make well-referenced, formal edit requests on article talk pages. The editor is warned that continuing to attempt to add links to Sheet Music X may lead to a sitewide block. The editor is advised to read the Guide to appealing blocks. Cullen328 (talk) 19:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I made well referenced edits directly from a reputable publisher. Enjoy the power trip. John40332 (talk) 19:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal attacks which violate policy. Cullen328 (talk) 19:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Let me quote Misplaced Pages's page for Power Trip "(...) someone in a position of greater power uses that power unjustifiably against a lower-ranking person, typically just for display of dominance.", since you showed up just to block me when I haven't even edited anything else until this incident was cleared. I didn't spam, I'm not a bot, my account isn't compromised, I referenced a reputable publisher that due to CurryTime's WP:COI and WP:OWN made him start this issue. John40332 (talk) 19:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Put that shovel down before you are indef blocked completely. increase indef block to all namespaces for battleground mentality. Lavalizard101 (talk) 19:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The block is now sitewide. Cullen328 (talk) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Historian5328

• Historian5328 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I have been dealing with persistent additions of unreferenced numbers to Somali Armed Forces, Somali Navy, etc for some time. Rolling them back - they're never supported by sources that validate the data, or the sources are distorted.

In the last couple of days a new user, User:Historian5328 has also started showing this behaviour. But in this edit he's entering fantasy territory, saying the Somali Armed Forces are equipped with the Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II, which has never been exported beyond the United States Air Force. I would request that any interested administrator consider this account for blocking. Kind regards and Happy New Year, Buckshot06 (talk) 21:37, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Editor clearly has some serious WP:CIR issues, given this WP:MADEUP stuff, and using...let's say non-reliable sources elsewhere, without responding to any of the notices on their talk page. I've pblocked them from articlespace so they can come here and explain themselves. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:05, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Just noting that the editor's username is User:Historian5328, not User:Historian 5328 and they were informed of this discussion. Liz 00:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

In the same regard, I would kindly request that any interested administrators review User_talk:YZ357980, who has been warned over and over and over again about adding unsourced and completely made up material (Somali Navy for example, consisting of 3,500 personnel..) Buckshot06 (talk) 03:51, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

I see you corrected their username in this report after I mentioned the mistake. Liz 07:19, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Liz, the original vandal and very problematic editor, who should be blocked immediately, was YZ357980. With all due regard to Historian5328, they display very similar behaviour, which immediately created a warning flag in my mind. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I’m relatively new to Misplaced Pages editing and only recently discovered that there is even a talk page. Regarding the active personnel for the Somali Armed Forces, I listed approx 20,000–30,000 (2024) and included a citation, which I believe does not warrant being blocked. I’m a beginner in Misplaced Pages editing, have no malicious intent, and do not believe I should be blocked. Moreover, I read from a Somalia media source that the Somali government had acquired A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft, believing the source to be authentic up until I discovered I was blocked. This was a mistake on my part, as I am new and inexperienced (2 days.) The individual who requested me to blocked must have had bad experiences which I’m not responsible for. I am requesting to be unblocked. Historian5328 (talk) 19:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion continued on user's talk page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:20, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

A reminder that the arbitration committee has designated the Horn of Africa a contentious topic, so don’t be afraid to lay down a CT advisory template for either user. 2600:1011:B32F:11B9:C826:BD54:45DF:3286 (talk) 08:30, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Both done - thanks for the reminder. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

• I've removed the pblock on Historian5328 as it appears what was happening was 'new user unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages's policies on reliable sourcing', but best to keep an eye on their edits. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:32, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Vofa and removal of sourced information

NO ACTION AT THIS TIME Participants reminded to attempt communicating with other editors before reporting their behaviour to ANI. asilvering (talk) 21:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This seems to be an ongoing issue.

Vofa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has lots of warnings about disruptive editing in their user page and a block.

Most recent example of removal of sourced information:

I checked the source and the information is there on page 7.

Previous examples include: . Also see: Talk:Finns#Vandalism_by_user:Vofa Bogazicili (talk) 16:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I just noticed that there is indeed an unsourced paragraph.

The reason for removal of sourced information would then be "removed text not relevant to Chagatai Khanate and Golden Horde in introduction". However the source does mention The first of the changes leading to the formation of the Turco-Mongolian tradition ... and then gives Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate as examples. I don't see any WP:V or WP:DUE issues.

I am concerned about removal of sourced information that does not seem to have a rationale based on Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines Bogazicili (talk) 16:41, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi there. The matter seems to be resolved. I did remove an unsourced paragraph and general claims not relevant to the introduction. I do not see a problem with it. You seem to have linked three edits I made. In the first edit, I had to revert because I accidentally chose the minor edit option. In the second edit, I have restored the previous version, but without a minor sign. I did not remove any sources (based on what I remember) I hope to see through my edits and understand what I did or did not do wrong. Please, avoid making an ANI in bad faith. Vofa (talk) 03:06, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

You removed source information. The part that starts with The ruling Mongol elites ...

@Asilvering: from the editor's talk page, you seem to be a mentor. Removing sources or sourced material without explanation, or with insufficient explanation or rationale, such as "Polished language" , is an ongoing concern with Vofa. Bogazicili (talk) 15:12, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Im not sure why I’m being stalked, but the edits you’re showing as examples of myself removing sources are more than two months old. I’ve stopped removing sources. Vofa (talk) 19:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

@Asilvering: This issue is still continuing Bogazicili (talk) 15:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

And you previously spoke to Vofa about this where...? -- asilvering (talk) 19:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

asilvering, I hadn't talked about removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale.

I did talk about this however . See: User_talk:Vofa#December_2024

I don't seek or expect a permanent block over this. But as a mentor and an administrator, maybe you can comment on removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale. Bogazicili (talk) 19:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

@Bogazicili, that's a threat, not an explanation. If you have a content dispute with an editor, which is what this appears to be, you need to be able to talk it out with them on the article's Talk page. @Vofa, please be careful to make sure your edit summaries explain what you're doing. I see that there was an unsourced statement in the link Bogazicili just supplied, so I presume that's what you meant by "unsourced". But the other statement you removed did have a source. It's ok to split your edits up into multiple edits if you need to do that to explain them properly, but you could also just give an edit summary like "removed unsourced; also, removed statement " that addresses both changes. -- asilvering (talk) 23:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Asilvering, I would not characterize this as a "content dispute". I was not involved in most of those articles. I got concerned after seeing edits market as minor removing sources or sourced material without any or proper explanation. That is not a content dispute, that is an editor conduct dispute. Bogazicili (talk) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

What Vofa does at articles related to Turko-Mongolian history is not a content dispute but vandalism. It took me a lot of time to manually revert the hoax years and figures he added in Turkmens article to decrease their population and he also removed sourced basic info from the lede of the Merkit tribe which I had to restore. These are just some of few sneaky vandalism examples that I caught among the pages I patrol by Vofa. If you see his talk page, he has been warned a lot of times by many other editors for such mischief. Theofunny (talk) 07:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Theofunny, Vofa hasn't edited the Turkmens article since before they were blocked. That is obviously not an ongoing issue. As for Merkit, I also see no discussion of those edits. If you have a problem with how someone is editing, you need to communicate with them. -- asilvering (talk) 08:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Asilvering, my concerns were removal of sourced information or sources without proper rationale or explanation. Do you think that was communicated enough to Vofa in this topic, or do we need further communication? I'm asking in case Vofa continues this type of behavior. Hopefully that won't be the case. Bogazicili (talk) 08:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Im going to repeat this again;

I have not removed any sources since I was warned about it.

I do not see an issue with my recent editing.

You should communicate with me on any issues that you have with me. Vofa (talk) 11:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Vofa, do you see any issues with this edit: Bogazicili (talk) 11:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you implying if I see an issue with this edit of mine or with your removal of said edit? Vofa (talk) 15:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Vofa, the former. I am asking if you see any issues yourself with your own linked edit. Bogazicili (talk) 17:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I do not see an issue with the linked edit of mine. Vofa (talk) 19:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Indeed, really the issue was Bogazicili's, and it has now been solved in the usual way (by restoring only the sourced content). Apologies, @Vofa, for misreading it earlier. -- asilvering (talk) 19:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Asilvering, I disagree. I did miss the unsourced paragraph. However, removal of sourced content has been an ongoing issue with Vofa. They should not have removed sourced content to begin with.

There was also a previous discussion in ANI:

Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1170#User:Vofa

Asilvering, again, is the threshold of communication met if removing sourced content by Vofa persists in the future? Bogazicili (talk) 19:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Basically, I'm not trying to get Vofa blocked, but they should be more careful in future when they remove sources or sourced content. They should have a reasonable rationale based in Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines, and they should explain that rationale properly. Bogazicili (talk) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Indeed they should. And you should not restore unsourced content once it has been removed. -- asilvering (talk) 20:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

asilvering, the difference is I already acknowledged it multiple times. Is that not obvious? Bogazicili (talk) 21:40, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

@Bogazicili, I'm going to close this report. No administrative action is required here at this time. You should make a habit of communicating on the article talk page when you get into a conflict with another editor, but you should always try to communicate with other editors before coming to ANI about their behaviour. This should be your last resort. If you make an earnest effort to communicate and are ignored, by all means report here. If there is edit-warring or obvious vandalism involved, please take that to the relevant noticeboard. -- asilvering (talk) 21:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. Vofa (talk) 11:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

This member often vandalises, in an article about Oirats he wrote huge numbers without backing them up with sources and tried to prove it was true. This is rabid vandalism. Incall 12:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Incall, vandalism has a specific meaning on Misplaced Pages; an edit being unsourced does not mean it was vandalism. Do not cast aspersions on other editors in this way. @Vofa, you are edit-warring on Oirats. You need to stop doing that immediately. -- asilvering (talk) 19:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I have not edited Oirats. I have stopped edit warring. Vofa (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Wikifascist" & Misplaced Pages:Casting aspersions

This one is pretty straightforward. An editor (@Last1in:) has deemed it OK to refer to me as a "wikifascist" on their talk page (User_talk:Last1in#My_ill-considered_comment). A clear case of Misplaced Pages:Casting aspersions, I find this to be extremely offensive. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:24, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

So apparently the editor has "retired" but is continuing editing using IPs? Anyway placed a warning for personal attacks on Last1in's user talk page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be the case. Sorry, I should have mentioned that — it's all around weird. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

User:YZ357980

• YZ357980 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I have just rolled back this edit () which (1) inaccurately introduces an incorrect Somali name into Somali Armed Forces; (2) installed a poor homemade copy of the Armed Forces crest dubious copyright and authenticity into the article, when a PD photo is visible in the infobox image; and (3) violated MOS:INFOBOXFLAG with the infobox.

I would kindly request any interested administrator to review the very dubious insertions of inflated personnel numbers introduced by this user into various Somali military articles, plus the error ridden and biased edits warned about at the top of the editor's talk page, with a view to a WP:TOPICBAN from African & Middle East military articles, widely construed. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

User:YZ357980 doesn't have a history of communicating with other editors. I have posted to their talk page, encouraging them to come to this discussion but I'm not optimistic that they are even aware that they have a User talk page. Liz 01:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I have given them a final warning and also a chance for them to participate here. If they don't, let's see what they get. Galaxybeing (talk) 06:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Incivility and ABF in contentious topics

Hob Gadling's uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it is problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:

Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883

WP:NPA

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324

Profanity

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966

Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877

Unicivil

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441

Contact on user page attempted

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795

Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Think this calls for a fierce trout slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a forced wikibreak according to WP:COOLDOWN, as this is just an angry user and frankly, I don't see direct personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as some diffs from the past few days are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. BarntToust 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Would I be the person to provide you with that further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions? I did think that it would be more than a WP:FISHSLAP, since that's for one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern warning. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Lardlegwarmers: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. Hob should know better, and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to WP:AVOIDEDITWAR. But I would caution you about WP:BOOMERANG and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your inappropriate recently deleted user page, removing sections from other people's talk page, and it seems like you're having a problem handling a WP:DISPUTE and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.

Furthermore it does appear that you might be WP:FORUMSHOPPING because your attempts at WP:POVPUSH for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. passively accusing editor behavior, directly accusing a specific editor bad behavior, claiming WP is political, RSN Report #1, RSN Report #2 to push for an article edit request, bringing the Covid discussion over to the teahouse, and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding Misplaced Pages's policy and guidelines and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards WP:CONSENSUS. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. TiggerJay (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. Thank you for your time and input.

Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: trying to report other editors in bad faith. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

@Lardlegwarmers: Jay brought something to my attention with a recent version of your user page. It looks like there is large language model (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason! I'm confused. This specific revision also assumes bad faith about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism. I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, since you are here at ANI now, what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT, in your own words. BarntToust 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @Thebiguglyalien, I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a formal warning or a trout slap is what needs to happen to Hob. BarntToust 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@IntrepidContributor, I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. please look at this diff on Lardle's user page for context, in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. BarntToust 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! *curtsy* Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". GiantSnowman 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' here? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word bullshit, which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, this supposed "disparag of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills" seems pretty temperate. And so on. Bishonen | tålk 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).

I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at this user page discussion where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - Palpable (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Hob Gadling failing to yield to WP:BLPRESTORE, apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. SmolBrane (talk) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Propose serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Recuse Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. SmolBrane (talk) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• As a note, Hob Gadling removed the ANI notice without comment and has not responded here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. BarntToust 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing WP:FRINGE misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as here, and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as here. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. Silverseren 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) bullshit to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that that was what led Lardlewarmers to try and their target on their talk page, a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward WP:BOOMERANG situation. --Aquillion (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "turn over a new leaf" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to tell people to stop before it's too late and stop treating aggressive or uncivil behavior as a "lesser" crime. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Lardlegwarmers#c-Liz-20241210000200-Editors_getting_banned_for_being_a_%22dick%22,_editing_Covid-19_articles
2. "All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution." https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests/ANI
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1266980661

Thread on List of Crypids talk page has devolved into an unproductive flame war

Talk:List of cryptids - Misplaced Pages

The thread, List rapidly further degrading initially started out as another attempt to delete the list and similar Cryptozoology pages but has now devolved into toxicity with insults and personal attacks directed at users engaging with the thread. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edelgardvonhresvelg (talk • contribs) 05:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Note that this account, an WP:SPA created in August of 2024 and focused on cryptozoology subjects, is likely one of the cryptozoology-aligned accounts discussed below (for example, the account's first edit is a cryptozoology edit). :bloodofox: (talk) 05:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not entirely focused on cryptozoology, as I have edited topics related to film, music, literature, zoology, video games, extinction, and technology. How is asking for an article to be cited on a zoology article related to cryptozoology? Edelgardvonhresvelg (talk) 06:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Edelgardvonhresvelg, what action are you seeking here? If you are making a complaint about personal attacks, you must provide evidence/"diffs" of examples of the conduct you are complaining about. Just mentioning a talk page without identifying the editors or edits that are problematic will likely result in no action being taken. You need to present a full case here and if you mention any editor by name, you need to post a notification of this discussion on their User talk page. Liz 08:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

User lobbying fringe subculture off-site for fringe subculture and suspicions of WP:MEATPUPPETry

It's said that Checkuser is not for fishing - well, ANI is also not a place to bring fishing expeditions. If you have evidence of recent misconduct by an editor, then by all means bring it. But if you just more would come to light, expect a {{trout}}ing. I'm closing this as unactionable with a fish for the OP, and a caution to in the future compile evidence before coming to ANI. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Over at cryptozoology and the very questionable list of cryptids, both extremely WP:FRINGE topics strongly linked to for example Young Earth creationism, myself and a few other users find ourselves having to respond to a lot of accounts that either openly or less than openly state that they're members of the article's subject subculture and that, like the subculture's founders, have a strong distaste for experts (here's an example anti-RS/anti-expert comment from today from one such fairly new account, @KanyeWestDropout:).

One of these editors, Paleface Jack (talk · contribs), has been caught lobbying off site (right here). The user has also likely done so elsewhere that hasn't come to light. This user's efforts appear to have led to a variety of WP:MEATPUPPETs popping up to WP:Wikilawyer any and all changes they disagree with, an effort to shape the articles to the subculture's preference.

Again, it's important to emphasize that not only has Paleface Jack been caught red-handed here but he has likely also lobbied elsewhere, leading to long-term problems for these and associated articles.

As some users here know, I edit a lot on fringe topics and have all but single-handedly written our coverage on topics like cryptozoology, utilizing nothing but the highest quality possible sources. Along the way, I've endured relentless insults and less-than-pleasant anonymous messages. I've been a personal target for users like Paleface Jack and co for years.

As is far too typical in our WP:FRINGE spaces, any action by myself and others introducing WP:RS on these articles is responded to with endless talk page lawyering and complaints from these cryptozoology-associated or -aligned editors, who fill talk pages with page after page of insult-ladden chatter about anything that doesn't fit their preferred messaging. This not infrequently includes insults toward non-adherents abiding by WP:RS and WP:NPOV (as an example, recently one of the users decided to refer to me as a "wikifascist", for example). This pattern has been going on for years and is a clear indication of long-term Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing and I've frankly put up wth it for far too long.

This is an all too common pattern that many editors who edit in new religious movement, pseudoscience, or fringe spaces will recognize as an unfortunate reality of editing in these spaces on the site.

I recommend that Paleface Jack be topic banned for off-site lobbying for meatpuppets, if nothing else, as well as likely associated accounts per WP:MEATPUPPET. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I don't have any disdain for Loxton and Prothero, all I said was that cryptozoologists have historically discussed a large number of "cryptids" which is something you could see from reading cryptozoologist papers ans books. I've previously cited Loxton/Prothero on cryptozoological wikipedia pages KanyeWestDropout (talk) 06:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

This user's actual comment in response to my mention of Prothero & Loxton, a dreaded WP:RS: "Learning about cryptozoologists by reading secondhand sources is a poor way to find out what cryptozoologists have actually done historically" (). Funny how a spotlight on ANI can change an editor's tune. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thaf didnt change my tune at all! I mentioned that I personally liked that book before you posted this KanyeWestDropout (talk) 14:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The incident Bloodoffox is referring to happened years ago when I did not know that was even a rule. It was a mistake I have not repeated, nor have I violated any rules since that incident.

That being said, Bloodoffox has a history of antagonizing other users associated with the topic. I am not aware of any of the other occasions where he has been harassed by users, so I sympathize. There are bad editors on this site that do that behavior or make edits that are, in kinder words, sloppy. Fringe topics are constrained as they are to avoid pandering or making it a massive advocation for them and should remain within the neutral guidelines that are enforced on fringe topics.

Yes, the topics do need a lot of work, and its hard to find the few good editors that know what they are doing with fringe topics. I myself follow the topic out of interest, not advocacy, and I rarely edit on it mainly cause of a backlog of other projects. I don't pop on to cause trouble as Bloodoffox loves to accuse me of, among the many personal attacks he has made against me. I have had no such incidents since my mistake way back in the day and I have not made any since then. The sole reason I commented in the discussion was because I could see it was rapidly devolving into an antagonistic nature, and though my words could have been put differently, I always wrote that we "needed to find common ground". It has become a point of frustration with this, because of personal attacks on my character and what I have contributed to this site. I am not a disruptor by any means and Bloodoffox has keep making accusations or belittling comments in regards to me and other users who disagree with him. His aggressive and belittling behavior has a huge role in antagonizing other users and it does need to stop. I might be frustrated, but I cannot see how this does any good with moving projects and topics forwards. Banning me from the topic is unnecessary and overkill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paleface Jack (talk • contribs)

If the only example of off-wiki canvasing is a single blog post from seven years ago, I'm not seeing any case for sanctions. - Bilby (talk) 07:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

This is the only clear incident I've encountered. However, there's good reason to suspect that there's more. Note also that although the user is happy to apologize about it when called on it here, the user also never deleted the off-site lobbying on the cryptozoology wiki. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I can see a case for a {{trout}} for the OP, at the very least. (Trout-erang?) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Bloodofox, if this has been a contentious area to edit in (there are many such areas on the project) but we can't sanction editors based on suspicions, we require evidence of misconduct and if it is off-wiki behavior, it might be more appropriate to send it to ARBCOM. You have provided a narrative statement of how difficult it is to edit in this field but with few diffs illustrating conflict and other editors have providing competing narratives. This isn't your first trip to ANI so you know what is required here for an admin to take action. And if you do provide some more evidence, I encourage you to provide RECENT evidence (like from the past 3 years), not diffs or statements from when an editor was new and unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages policies and practices. Liz 08:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

While the editor has been been editing since 2013 and his off-site post was from 2018 (yet somehow claims to not know it was not OK to canvas for meatpuppets off-site), I figured this might be the case and hoped more would come to light about what's going on off-site (I expect more will, in which case I'll return). :bloodofox: (talk) 08:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

As I have said before, I am not used to conflict on the site and naively did that. If you look back at that whole debate, I did reply saying I was not aware that it was bad. If you look at my history of edits, I rarely (if ever) participate in conflict. I prefer to edit like everyone else on here in a constructive and beneficial manner, so all those accusations strike a nerve with me as they are both untrue and slander. As I have said previously, bloodoffox has a history of provoking conflict by aggressive behavior towards other editors, even when those editors are in the wrong they should not be treated with the level of disdain and contempt. Slandering myself or others either based on an isolated and admitted mistake, then constantly bringing it up as "proof" of his claims that I am an instigator of any sort of conflict he has with others is behavior that only inspires destructive conflicts or edits. I have, in the past, reached out to bloodoffox to apologize and also offer assistance with other projects thinking that would mend any sort of anger and hate. This recent incident has proved me wrong and I am sad to see that it has come to this. I never wanted any conflict, just a healthy way of moving forwards to tackle fascinating and notable topics.

I will admit that it is frustratingly difficult to make edits on fringe topics, I am one of those people that tried to edit some but got frustrated by the overly tight restrictions on the subject (not that I was leaning to one side as some claim I do), which is why I rarely edit on the topic and only do so when I see that there is reliable information benefiting and fitting of the standards set by Misplaced Pages. I love information, and even fringe topics have enough within Misplaced Pages's confines to exist on the site and be a fascinating read for people. I truly hope you read this bloodoffox and realize I never meant you ill or advocate for people harassing you, I want this platform to explore information correctly and efficiently, even if we do not agree with the topic. That is pretty much all that should be said on this matter and hopefully it gets resolved. Paleface Jack (talk) 17:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rangeblock request to stop ban evasion by Dealer07

Blocks fall. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Dealer07 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• 62.74.24.0/21 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))
• 2A02:85F:F070:E175:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))

The Greek vandal User:Dealer07 was blocked for edit-warring over nationality and ethnicity. In the past few hours, five new Greek IPs have been rapidly restoring preferred edits: Special:Contributions/62.74.24.244, Special:Contributions/62.74.24.229, Special:Contributions/62.74.24.251, Special:Contributions/62.74.24.220 and Special:Contributions/62.74.24.207. I propose we engage a rangeblock rather than play whackamole on a series of single IPs. Can we block the range Special:Contributions/62.74.24.0/21? Thanks in advance.

Note that the range Special:Contributions/2A02:85F:F070:E175:0:0:0:0/64 was blocked very recently for the same reasons. Binksternet (talk) 06:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• I've blocked 62.74.0.0/18 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) for 6 months and Ahecht has blocked 2A02:85F:F070:E175:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) for 1 month. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Taboo of archaeologists

This is fundamentally a content dispute, I see nothing admin-actionable here. 331dot (talk) 10:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This is about by Jahuah. They claim that an unprovenanced archaeological object is authentic. Bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss unprovenanced objects in public. It's a taboo of their profession. So, no bona fide archaeologist can give the lie to the authenticity of that object without losing their job. Since if they mention that object in public they get sacked. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Lol, reporting on me? Jahuah (talk) 06:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Give me an actual reason why the specific seal in question is not authentic? How about that? Quote me an actual scholar who does? If not, then your words mean jack. Jahuah (talk) 06:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

According to critical rationalism, the claim that such object is authentic is unfalsifiable. Since it is taboo to discuss such object in public. So only biased hacks could affirm it is authentic or inauthentic without losing their jobs. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you think it’s inauthentic? Or not? Please do not be wasting my time here. Jahuah (talk) 06:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

It think that claim is utterly unfalsifiable, so it cannot amount to science. See for details The Shapira Strips: What Are They and Are They Forgeries? on YouTube by Dr. Robert R. Cargill. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for actually giving me an answer at least. Jahuah (talk) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

What exactly are you asking admins to do there? This looks to me like a content dispute. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Who, me? I’m not asking anything. I just wanted to show how a seal dated by a scholar to the 8th century is indeed an 8th century BC Israelite seal of Hoshea.

The guy up there has a problem with that and now apparently I’m on the naughty list. Jahuah (talk) 07:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@The Bushranger: I have explained them at length why this is utterly problematic, previously. I had expected that they will behave. Misbehaving is a behavioral problem. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I think I know how to behave, thank you very much. I’m not a petulant manchild. Jahuah (talk) 07:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

See User talk:Jahuah#December 2024 and Talk:Uzziah#Uzziah Seals. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Lol, I refuted you there. All you did was attack Dr. Mykytiuk and call into question his scholarship. Jahuah (talk) 07:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Besides, what does this have to do with the Hoshea seal? Jahuah (talk) 07:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't expect any of you to take my word for it, that why I had WP:CITED https://web.archive.org/web/20241209232716/https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/archaeology-today/the-problem-with-unprovenanced-objects/ Suffices to say that unprovenanced objects are ethically and juridically fishy. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

So no comment on my refutation of your petulant behavior? Jahuah (talk) 07:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Who’s “any of you” by the way? I’m one guy. Jahuah (talk) 07:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

You're (only you, not The Bushranger) promoting a claim that is unfalsifiable, unethical, and maybe even juridically problematic. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:18, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Ooo, that’s a new one. Jahuah (talk) 07:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Nope, if you had read carefully what I told you in 2024, there is nothing new about my claim. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

i can tell you’re clearly upset with me. >:). Good. You guys represent scholarship only when it suits your ideology. Jahuah (talk) 07:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

It's not about my ideology. It is about: bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss such claims in public. So no bona fide archaeologist could affirm that that object is authentic or inauthentic, because the next day they will have to flip burgers at Target. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Fine whatever, I apologize. Jahuah (talk) 07:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• Demands to prove a negative are a nonsensical and puerile debating tactic. The editor must cite evidence that the item is considered authentic, or refrain from stating so in WP's voice. Simple as that. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 07:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Is the editor referring to me? Jahuah (talk) 07:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  If so, here you go. Lawrence J. Mykytiuk, Identifying Biblical Persons in Northwest Semitic Inscriptions of 1200-539 B.C.E. (Boston: Brill, 2004), 58., https://www.academia.edu/62900860/Iconography_on_Hebrew_Seals_and_Bullae_Identifying_Biblical_Persons_and_the_Apparent_Paradox_of_Egyptian_Solar_Symbols_ABSTRACT_ Jahuah (talk) 07:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Since bona fide archaeologists are not allowed to discuss it, you win by default? tgeorgescu (talk) 07:22, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Elmidae, were you referring to me? Jahuah (talk) 07:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Bona fide archaeologists will lose their jobs for merely mentioning Mykytiuk's claim. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  I was talking to Elmidae. Jahuah (talk) 07:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, they were talking to you. Also both of you take a chill pill for a minute, please - this disucssion is already approaching WP:TLDR levels of length from the back-and-forth above. Tgeorgescu, you don't have to respond to everything Jahuah says esepecially when it's in response to other editors. Jahuah, i can tell you’re clearly upset with me. >:). Good. is not an attitude conducive to cooperative editing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Fine, fine, I apologize. I’m just angry that my contributions to Misplaced Pages get deleted. I just wanna leave some edits and then I’ll leave this site for good. I promise. Jahuah (talk) 08:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  I also want to make sure my contributions are kept before I leave. Jahuah (talk) 08:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  This editor appears to be edit warring across multiple pages to assert historical uncertainties as fact based on unconfirmed and speculative research from biblical archaeology blogs and the like. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Oh look, BAR society is no longer reputable because some Misplaced Pages mod said so. Jahuah (talk) 07:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  By the way, who am I edit warring with? That’s news to me. Jahuah (talk) 07:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  We don't have "mods" on Misplaced Pages. But you have only been editing for a month so it shouldn't be expected that you would know much about how Misplaced Pages works. Liz 08:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hmph. I guess I’ll go then. Sorry for the trouble I caused. Jahuah (talk) 08:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Jahuah, I wasn't asking you to leave the project, just pointing out that you are a newer editor. Misplaced Pages is chockful of rules and guidelines and it's not realistic to expect new editors to be familiar with them all. Liz 09:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  No, no. It’s ok. It’s clear that I have caused more problems here than solved. I just hope my contributions will stay, or at least be kept until new data comes. I’ll be out of your hairs soon. Jahuah (talk) 10:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

it's an unprovenanced object and likely a forgery it was not found in a licensed archaeological excavation it does not possess a credible chain of custody this is very much too good to be true but since people of faith want to believe it and since it's not against the law to use your free speech to make false claims like this forgers will make forgeries and antiquities dealers will put them up for sale and try to make as much money as they can but these kind of forgeries pollute legitimate biblical archaeology and it is why so many scholars myself included do not publish critical reviews of unproven objects once you give them credence their value is increased even if you put a little asterisk by them and designate them as unprovenanced and merely teach the controversy you are still giving them scholarly recognition and debate that the forger and the antiquities dealer so desperately crave publishing unprovenanced objects leads to looting and to forgeries it's that simple

— Dr. Robert R. Cargill, transcript

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 08:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

tgeorgescu, this is becoming a detailed content dispute which means it probably should be closed as off-topic for this noticeboard. Liz 09:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• For the record, tg's hysterical talk about disgraced archeologists flipping burgers at Target is nonsense. There is vigorous controversy about unprovenanced objects, but no one's losing their job for breaking some alleged taboo. EEng 06:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

HoraceAndTheSpiders

Attention gotten and message received. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• HoraceAndTheSpiders (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Could someone briefly block User:HoraceAndTheSpiders to get their attention, or come up with better way to get them to read their talk page/comply with the WP:ARBECR restrictions. Thanks. Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Done. I've left a note on their talkpage that they will almost certainly be unblocked if they promise to keep away from ARBPIA until they are extended-confirmed. Black Kite (talk) 11:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Sean.hoyland The editor has submitted a suitable unblock request, so I have unblocked. Please let me know if they stray into ARBPIA again. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 12:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

TTTEMLPBrony and continued addition of unsourced/crufty material, zero communication

Blocked. Now CU-blocked. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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TTTEMLPBrony (talk · contribs) has been active since late April 2024. They have a history of adding of unsourced and sometimes controversial material. They have been messaged and warned plenty of times, including by FlightTime, Doniago and LindsayH, but to no avail. Better yet, they haven't responded once on their own talk page.WP:COMMUNICATION is required and they do not seem to be willing or able to work with others. I've issued them a warning earlier this week, but looking at their talk page, I see they've been issued stern warnings plenty of times. And despite messages about adding sources, in late December 2024 they created List of second unit directors, which is barely referenced. soetermans. 12:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

They may be unaware of their talkpage, even though 8 months seems a long time for that. I have blocked indefinitely, with an informative message and a link to their talkpage in the log. Unfortunately that's sometimes the only way to get the attention of a non-responsive user. Bishonen | tålk 15:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC).

They know about talk pages, Bishonen, because they have used one at least once; i checked when i first tried to communicate with them to no avail. That being said, i think this is a good use of a block, showing we are serious when we say communication is necessary ~ Lindsay 17:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• Indefinitely blocked after only 5-hours, without the user even editing during that period? For a first offence? After only warnings of the lowest level? I'm no sure why User:Soetermans even created this request, as there'd been zero editing of the page in question since his talk-page warning 3 days earlier! Much of the edits seem to be merely content disputes. I don't see much repition after notification. And we don't even have rules about providing sources. There was no imminent risk of damage here, and I don't think the conditions laid out in WP:INDEF have been met. And WP:BLOCKDURATION most certainly hasn't been met. This is an appallingly awful block User:Bishonen. Can I that you reduce it to a week or less just to get attention. I'd suggest a day, but the editor is so infrequent, that they may not not notice. Though given they are moderating their behaviour based on what is posted in their talk page, even a block is barely justified. Nfitz (talk) 00:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I disagree. When an editor refuses to communicate, it's not uncommon for an admin to block until the editor responds. Even the block notice tells them Please respond below this post and start communicating, and you may be unblocked. Sometimes it's a case where inexperienced editors simply don't realize that they have a talk page or that people are leaving them messages. This block gently brings it to their attention. Schazjmd (talk) 00:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I see nothing in policy for an indefinite. And an indefinite block is absolutely not "gently". It's the kind of heavy-handed authoritarianism that drives the people we need away. There seemed to be edits that were a real attempt to improve Misplaced Pages. And there seemed to be changes in behaviour that were guided by the comments on the talk page. And there hadn't even been any further edits of concern since the previous warning - days ago. Sure, for Misplaced Pages warriors who frequent ANI, a block is just something you deal with; but I don't think that's how many people would see it. Nfitz (talk) 00:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Indef is "until you address the issue", not forever. Schazjmd (talk) 00:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I believe we are all aware of that. The issue is that doing so, at this stage, is completely outside of our policy, and that doing so for a minor case like this is completely outside of policy. We can't just make start doing things a different way because the admin feels like it. Our policy says that "Indefinite blocks are usually applied when there is significant disruption or threats of disruption, or major breaches of policy". The threat was neither significant (or even very recent) or a major breach of policy. I note that the user in question was only given 5 hours to respond, but after 4 hours, we'd still had no response from User:Bishonen, perhaps she should also have been blocked for not noticing the discussion (yeah, that's irony, not a proposal). Nfitz (talk) 06:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• TTTEMLPBrony has now responded, stating that "I have not realized that accounts have talkpages", so apparently my block worked as intended. Unfortunately, they go on to say that their little brother did it, and also that they allowed the brother to use the account. Blithely they claim that "I have already dealt with him" - uh, "already"? Anyway, whether or not I believe them about the brother (I can't say I do), the account is clearly compromised, and must stay blocked. With some hesitation, I've turned the block into a softblock, so that they may create a new account, and have explained that they must absolutely not share it with anybody. I have notified the stewards in case they want to globally lock. Bishonen | tålk 03:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC).
  • Just because, User:Bishonen, it worked, doesn't mean that you are allowed to just make up your own rules. (but yeah, sounds fishy ... on the other hand, it's probably a child). Please follow protocol, or hand over your keys. Thanks. Nfitz (talk) 06:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Nfitz, please be more polite on these noticeboards. The block Bishonen placed was perfectly fine and it's the kind of thing admins have been doing for years. Nothing in policy forbids it, and I believe The Bushranger's response is along the same lines. Besides, the editor's edit were, and I'm trying to stay polite myself, not good, as their talk page full of warnings indicates: no edit summaries, no responses, no communication, no knowledge of sourcing and sourcing requirements. Finally, I don't know how young that editor might be, but I do know that they are four years older than when Ponyo blocked them. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
      • I've noted elsewhere that in retrospect that I look like an idiot, given what else has transpired - and that they are a sock-puppet only makes it worse for me on that. That said, in this circumstance, there is zero support in policy for an indefinite. An indefinite should not be the starting point of a block, especially for an infrequent editor. That policy has been broken before "for years" doesn't make it okay. Fix the policy if you think that's what should be happening. I don't see any impoliteness here. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jypian gaming extended confirmed

SOCK BLOCKED I've run out of sock puns, sorry. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Sock blocked. EEng

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Jypian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

On J.P. (rapper), the user is making pointless edits after having been here for exactly thirty days. Clearly gaming extended confirmed. 🐔 Chicdat   12:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I been making real edits since I created my account please take your time to check and I’m sorry for purposely pointless edits for extended confirmed on Day 30. I’m a real and genuine user I just wanted early access to work and edit on important stuffJypian (talk) 13:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

For what reason are you doing this? 331dot (talk) 13:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The thing is, articles that only extended confirmed users can edit are like that for a reason. What kinds of important stuff were you planning on working on? 🐔 Chicdat   13:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Donald Trump Hotel Accident Jypian (talk) 13:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Considering you've admitted you've gaming the system you need to voluntary agree to refrain from editing anything that requires EC until you've made 500 real edits. The permission will be removed if you don't follow this. I'd also suggest stay away from the Donald Trump hotel article until you've gotten at least a few thousand edits under your belt since being so desperate to edit an article is usually a sign once you do start editing you'll get into trouble. Nil Einne (talk) 14:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I have revoked their extended-confirmed permission. They may re-request it from WP:PERM after making 500 legitimate edits. —Ingenuity (t • c) 14:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Im going to edit Donald Trump hotel accident, whatever you want it or not😡 JupianCircles (talk) 14:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

If you create alternative accounts to try and bypass your primary account's restrictions, you will end up being banned. GiantSnowman 14:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

It's unnecessary to threaten or to evade restrictions; you can propose edits via the edit request wizard. If they are nonsense, though, expect to be blocked as well. 331dot (talk) 14:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• Blocked. Blocked as a sock by NinjaRobotPirate. Bishonen | tålk 15:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC).

  That makes sense. 331dot (talk) 15:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks for the action NinjaRobotPirate. 🐔 Chicdat   15:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• As an aside, is it possible to take away the EC permission before it is achieved or otherwise prevent it being automatically gained? I said what I said above because I incorrectly thought they hadn't yet achieved EC. Given this I thought either an admin would need to watch out for them (unless there's an admin bot which can do this) or they could voluntary refrain from using their EC and this wouldn't be necessary. But I checked after and realised I was wrong about them not gaining EC and I'm wondering if I could be wrong about the removal of EC before it's automatically gained. Nil Einne (talk) 16:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think it's possible to prevent an account from obtaining EC by granting and immediately revoking it. That apparently stops the account from getting it automatically because it has obtained EC before. QwertyForest (talk) 16:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Interesting, thanks. Useful to know for the future. Nil Einne (talk) 17:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Footballnerd2007

This is going nowhere fast. Whether or not Footballnerd2007 is using an LLM to respond to conversations, they've promised to stay out of other editors' userspace drafts, been notified they shouldn't start RfAs for other editors without speaking to them, and said that they would be more careful with moves. (On that note, I can't warn Footballnerd2007 to not close RM discussions, but I'd highly recommend they avoid doing so until they become more acquainted with community norms.) voorts (talk/contributions) 22:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I need a second pair of eyes on Footballnerd2007 (talk · contribs) please - apparently a new editor, but they have been closing RM discussions - including one where they introduced a typo, see Dory (special) which I have fixed - and they have also been messing around moving my user space pages (see User:GiantSnowman/Mbunya Alemanji) and they have also created Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Cyberdog958. None of this is the action of a new editor and my Spidey senses are tingling. GiantSnowman 19:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't see an urgent or intractable issue here. Unless/until stronger evidence comes up, I'm going to assume that they're trying to help and suggest we respond accordingly. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd like to clarify a point in your message. The statement "and they have also been messing around moving my user space pages (see User:GiantSnowman/Mbunya Alemanji)" should be corrected. I have only moved one page, not multiple pages. Please adjust the wording to reflect this accurately. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 19:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

A response like that is not helping with my suspicions and concerns. GiantSnowman 20:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

What exactly am I being accused of? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

You are either an extremely over enthusiastic new editor making mistakes - in which case you need to slow down a lot, and listen ASAP - or you are a sock trying to be clever. GiantSnowman 20:12, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The former is rather accurate. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

GiantSnowman, if you have evidence, then the appropriate forum is WP:SPI. If you don't, then you're liable to get hit with a boomerang for WP:NPA/WP:ASPERSIONS, even if you end up happening to be correct. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

And what would my boomerang punishment be? GiantSnowman 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

How do I go about making a complaint against him for violating WP:NPA/WP:ASPERSIONS? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Response

Hello GiantSnowman,

Thank you for raising these concerns. I'd like to address the points you mentioned:

1. Botched Page Moves: Regarding the page moves, I made an attempt to improve the accuracy and consistency of article titles based on my understanding of the situation. I acknowledge that there was a typo introduced, which I appreciate being pointed out, and I have since corrected it. I’ll be more careful in the future to ensure that such errors do not occur.

2. Messing with User Space Draft: I apologise for any disruption caused to your user space draft. My intention was never to interfere with your content. I recognise that user space is personal, and I will be mindful to avoid making any uninvited changes moving forward.

3. Creation of an RFA for Cyberdog958: As for the RFA for Cyberdog958, I stand by my decision to create it. I believed that Cyberdog958 hads demonstrated the necessary qualities for adminship and could be a positive asset to the community. There was no ill intent behind my actions. The RFA was made based on a genuine belief that they were qualified, and I will continue to support nominations that I feel are appropriate based on the contributions and behavior I observe.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings. I strive to make constructive contributions and act in good faith, and I appreciate your understanding.

Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

RFA - why didn't you discuss with the editor first? GiantSnowman 20:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I wasn't aware there was a requirement to do so. I did notify them! Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 20:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Before you made the RFA??? No. GiantSnowman 20:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I wasn’t pinged about this ANI, but I found it through the RFA message on my talk page. I guess I appreciate the thought, if it was coming from a sincere place, but I would have declined the nomination if I was asked. I’ve never come across this user or interacted with them in any way until now so I’m not sure why they picked me. cyberdog958 20:46, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Footballnerd2007, given that Cyberdog958 has confirmed that they have never interacted with you, please confirm how you found them to nominate them for RFA?

Similarly, how did you find me this afternoon, as I similarly have never heard of or interacted with you before today? GiantSnowman 21:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Footballnerd2007 thank you for trying to help out, and I'm sorry that GiantSnowman has chosen to escalate this in the way that he has. Page moves can be tricky, and you might want to sit back and watch the process for a while before participating in it yourself. Regarding RFA, it's a serious decision that people usually mull over for years before they finally agree to submit their names, so it's going to be more than a little jarring to have someone else do it on one's behalf. With the user space, it seems you understand the issue so there's no need to retread that. Going forward, I suggest taking things slow and asking for help whenever you think about entering a new area. I've been doing this for a few years now, and I still reach out to someone with experience in the area if I think I want to try something new! Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Footballnerd2007, the response that you made at 20:08 has formatting that I have only seen before from AI, never from a human editor. Was it made with an LLM? If so please talk to us in your own words. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I have the feeling that a lot of this editor's comments are AI produced. GiantSnowman 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I refer you to my previous answer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for that link - I see therefore that other users have raised concerns with you only yesterday about your RM/discussion closes, and yet you have continued to make poor closes today. Why is that? Why therefore should we trust you when you say you won't do it again, given you have done it again? GiantSnowman 21:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Yesterday I didn't say I wouldn't do it again, today I have, albeit reluctantly, changed my position for the sake of keeping the peace. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Why did you continue to make the same questionable edits that other editors have previously queried with you? Unless you are deliberately trying to be disruptive? GiantSnowman 21:46, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Transparently LLM output. Folly Mox (talk) 21:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Yet here they deny using Chat GPT. So either it's not LLM (and multiple users have raised these suspicions, which I share) and just very odd language, or they are a liar. Which is it? GiantSnowman 21:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

What unsubjctive hard evidence do you have to support that allegation? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I pulled 11 random AI detectors from Google. Of them, seven give a 100% AI rating. One gives 50% and the 3 others give 0%. Tarlby 21:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The final 3 are 100% accurate. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

And the 7 others? Tarlby 21:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I have no explanation. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Because there is none - it's absolutely AI generated, you don't need a detector for that. While not against policy, it's heavily frowned upon, as it's not your words but the LLM's. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

And given that you have repeatedly denied use LLM, you are a liar and cannot be trusted. GiantSnowman 21:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT because I didn't, that's not a lie and you have no evidence to suggest to the contrary. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

But you have been using a LLM of some kind, yes? GiantSnowman 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

No comment. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

We'll take that as a 'yes' then - and that you therefore have not been truthful. The tiny modicum of AGF I had has now fully disappeared. GiantSnowman 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

So you're accusing me of lying now? As I have said before, I didn't use ChatGPT. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I am accusing you of lying. GiantSnowman 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

That's a serious allegation, what evidence do you have that I use ChatGPT? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The blatantly AI generated response is Exhibit A. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'm pretty sure there's LLMs that aren't ChatGPT. But if you're saying "I didn't use a LLM/AI generator at all", then that is demonstratably false. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

And if you're trying to be clever by saying "I use LLM but not ChatGPT", your comments here have been disingenuous and misleading. You are digging yourself a hole. GiantSnowman 21:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I never made any comment about LLMs in general. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 21:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Please answer this direct question - have you used LLM? If so, why didn't you own up to that when asked? GiantSnowman 21:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

🤦‍♂️ Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict)So that's "yes" then, got it. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:LLMDISCLOSE applies (even if only an essay). GiantSnowman 22:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

You're not helping your case right now. Even if you're getting dogpiled (especially if you're getting dogpiled) you need to speak clearly and directly. You'll gain far more goodwill by saying you're using an LLM and agreeing to stop. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thebiguglyalien, do you now understand why my red flags were flagging earlier? There is something off about this editor. GiantSnowman 22:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't disagree with your analysis. I disagree with the way you approached it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

A fair criticism. GiantSnowman 22:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm sure you've had to deal with this sort of thing far more than I have, so I get that. My philosophy is just that I'd rather give dozens of "cases" that extra chance if it means salvaging one well-meaning productive editor. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Which is what I usually try and do, but the alarm bells just really rang here, and I simply wanted a second pair of eyes on the contribs to tell me "yes it's fishy" or "no you're thinking too much". I did not envision this discussion! GiantSnowman 22:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 22:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Stop choosing your words carefully. I'm trying to give you a chance that isn't often afforded to new editors here, and you're trying to WP:Wikilawyer, which is also against the rules. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Here's the deal - either you used AI, or you my words very carefully in a way that is how AI distinctively chooses them. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Here's 4 more AI detectors. Two give 100%, one says 11% (literally the last two sentences), and the other gives 50%. Tarlby 22:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Which AI detectors are you using? Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

possible hoaxes

• Emilioveh (talk · contribs)
• Emnoé (talk · contribs)
• Larissæ (talk · contribs)
• Miguelinor (talk · contribs)
• Nose236 (talk · contribs)

The above accounts are sockpuppets that have been blocked on the Spanish Misplaced Pages for creating articles with unverifiable references or with scarce references taken out of context. I recommend reviewing all the articles that these accounts have created here as they may be hoaxes.--Fontaine347 (talk) 04:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

As a note, you don't appear to have notified any of these editors about this section, which is something you need to do when you open a section on this noticeboard. - Purplewowies (talk) 05:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I've notified all the users about this possible hoax issue already. Suggest any action from administrators if possible. Galaxybeing (talk) 05:30, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Fair enough, that's a valid notion, Fontaine347. Feel free to do so! Ravenswing 12:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Edit warring to prevent an RFC

@Axad12 has removed an RFC tag from Talk:Breyers#Request for comment on propylene glycol now twice within an hour.

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Reasons and ways to end RfCs provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list.

We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an Misplaced Pages:Ownership of content problem or a Misplaced Pages:Walled garden that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm not saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in some cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute.

I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/FAQ. See you tomorrow. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC.

I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith.

The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. Axad12 (talk) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. Axad12 (talk) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Axad12, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have absolutely no conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. Cullen328 (talk) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Axad12, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. WhatamIdoing, a {{trout}} for WP:GRENADEing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template.

The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. Axad12 (talk) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be falsely accused of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that exceptionally serious abuse? Cullen328 (talk) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request.

I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request).

As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content.

Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. Axad12 (talk) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

"Asking a second time" is not WP:Gaming the system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. Axad12 (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the WP:UPPERCASE. See, e.g., An editor gaming the system is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support. Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy.

I also direct your attention to the item that says Gaming the system may include...Filibustering the consensus-building process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to WP:GAMINGTHESYSTEM, which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. Axad12 (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not highly misleading.

I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. Axad12 (talk) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? Phil Bridger (talk) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved.

I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. Axad12 (talk) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when WP:COIN can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one fad diet book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer.

But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my not-inconsiderable experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself.

It isn't really relevant here but actually I didn't expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. Axad12 (talk) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor tag-teamed with Graywalls, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article. Both users refused collaboration on the Breyers article content at DRN.

Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue.

Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (article link) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative.

Proposal: Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and here, as another example, Axad12 and Graywalls should be A-banned from the Breyers article and its talk page.

• Support. Zefr (talk) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
  • You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Oppose: I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard.

  I have not ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them.

  Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024.

  I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make.

  Also, the idea that I made a hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect.

  I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time.

  Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at WP:COIN, but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. Axad12 (talk) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. here, because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see User_talk:DMacks#Breyers_disruptive_editing for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling Special:Diff/1261441062. @Aoidh: also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see Special:Diff/1257252695 Graywalls (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Complaint against User:GiantSnowman

This complaint has been withdrawn.See #Response from Footballnerd2007 below.

Good Morning,

I am writing to formally lodge a complaint against User:GiantSnowman for repeated violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on personal attacks (WP:NPA) and casting aspersions (WP:ASPERSIONS) during a recent discussion.

Throughout the interaction, GiantSnowman has engaged in behavior that appears to contravene Misplaced Pages's behavioral guidelines, including but not limited to:

Casting aspersions without evidence:

• GiantSnowman repeatedly accused me of engaging in disruptive behavior, suggesting ulterior motives without providing any verifiable evidence.
• For instance, accusations of using ChatGPT to generate responses without concrete proof.
• Statements like “You are a liar and cannot be trusted” and other similar assertions lack civility and violate the principle of Assume Good Faith.

Aggressive tone and unwarranted accusations:

• The user's tone throughout the discussion has been hostile, escalating to direct personal attacks:
• Referring to me as a “liar” multiple times.
• Suggesting that I have been “deliberately disruptive” without presenting any factual basis.

Violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:ENCOURAGE:

• Misplaced Pages encourages editors to respond constructively to newcomers' efforts. However, GiantSnowman’s behavior has been dismissive and accusatory, discouraging participation and creating a hostile editing environment.

As an administrator, GiantSnowman is expected to set an example by adhering to Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies and fostering a collaborative environment. However, their actions in this instance fall far short of the standards expected of administrators, which further exacerbates the seriousness of this issue.

I understand that discussions can sometimes be contentious, but I believe there is no justification for violating WP:NPA or WP:ASPERSIONS. I respectfully request that administrators review the linked discussion and take appropriate action to address this behavior.

If any additional information or clarification is needed, I am happy to provide it. My intent is to ensure a respectful and collaborative editing environment for all Misplaced Pages contributors.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion I raised was at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Footballnerd2007, now closed. I raised concerns about this editor, who has (in brief) - undertake botched and inappropriate RM closures; re-factored other editor's talk page posts; randomly nominated another user with whom they have never interacted before for RFA; and messing with my user space draft. None of that was the conduct of a new editor here to learn the ropes, and I wanted a second pair of eyes.

In the course of that discussion, it became highly suspect to multiple users that this user has been editing with LLM. They denied using Chat GPT and, when questioned further, refused to answer. That is why I said this user is a liar and cannot be trusted, and I stand by that assertion. GiantSnowman 12:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Pinging other editors who were involved in that ANI discussion or have posted concerns/advice on this user's talk page - @Liz, Voorts, Folly Mox, Tiggerjay, Extraordinary Writ, Tarlby, The Bushranger, Thebiguglyalien, and Cyberdog958: - think that is everyone, apologies if not. GiantSnowman 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for your speedy response. Now let other admins add their point of view. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Given the closed section above - which was closed for a very good reason - I'd suggest that coming back to this page to complain and using an LLM to do it is a spectacularly bad idea. The community only has limited patience when dealing with editors who are causing timesinks for other edits, and I suspect that the section above was your limit. Black Kite (talk) 12:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  WP:BOOMERANG is worth reviewing. It may already be too late for you to withdraw your complaint, but it's probably worth an attempt. --Yamla (talk) 12:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Please, any passing uninvolved admin, block the OP now. Not least for using an LLM to generate a complaint that someone accused them of using ChatGPT to generate responses. Enough of our time has been wasted. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Again, this is mere conjecture. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Continuing to deny the obvious - especially when Tarlby ran your posts through multiple LLM checkers - is really not helping your case. For me, it shows you are not here in good faith and that you absolutely cannot be trusted. GiantSnowman 12:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No, it's called people have eyes. Using LLMs this way is highly disrespectful and frankly disruptive. Boomerang block for WP:NOTHERE seems appropriate. Simonm223 (talk) 12:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

+1 to Phil Bridger. What struck me in the prior thread, over and over again, was how repeatedly evasive he was. "I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT..." "I never made any comment about LLMs in general." "I have no explanation." "Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully." "Which AI detectors are you using?" "The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively." And so on, and so on, and so on. Footballnerd2007 has been given chance after chance to answer plainly, without Wikilawyering or weasel-wording, and has instead stuck to the tactic of deflect, deflect, deflect. I don't know where Footballnerd2007 got the notion that the Fifth Amendment was the law of the land on Misplaced Pages, and that no boomerang can touch him as long as he admits to nothing. Let's just disabuse him of the notion. Ravenswing 12:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Retaliatory BS; this should be closed immediately. Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

CBAN proposal

• I propose a community ban for Footballnerd2007, appealable no sooner than six months from now (and then once per year thereafter), alongside a ban on using LLM's which would remain in effect until specifically contested. At the time of writing, Footballnerd2007 has only 142 edits, a significant number of which are right here at WP:ANI. They are clearly a massive WP:NOTHERE time sink. I urged Footballnerd2007 to withdraw this complaint and warned about WP:BOOMERANG and that clearly didn't land. I think it's time for everyone else to get back to regular editing. --Yamla (talk) 12:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  • Support, obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. GiantSnowman 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? Ravenswing 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. GiantSnowman 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I'll respond to this in depth later today. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I concede that I've been backed into a corner and now I need to do the right thing, stop with the defensive act and own up to my mistakes which I'll do in my statement later this afternoon. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I had my legal head on with the philosophy "defend until you can no more" - I now concede on reflection this is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages and that my actions were not the right way to go and for that I will take full responsibility in my statement. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    It's too late to withdraw now. You have to take responsibility for your behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  • (edit conflict)Support - on top of what's been posted on this thread, FN2007 has wiped their talk page by archiving without a link to the archive on the fresh talk page, without responding to Liz's advice. They also edited other people's comments to add things they didn't say when closing a RM discussion, and haven't responded when I pointed this out. These things alongside their LLM use (and subsequent wikilawyering "technically I only said I didn't use ChatGPT" responses), refusal to listen to good advice, and everything else in this topic, I think a community ban would be a good idea. BugGhost 🦗👻 13:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC) Update - striking support for cban, I think footballnerd's recent responses and CNC's offer of mentorship indicate that we may be able to avoid it. BugGhost 🦗👻 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? GiantSnowman 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I will go back and thank her for that. Because I had been advised that your actions could have violated WP policy and thought it would be a good way to deflect the blame, in heinsight it was absolutely the wrong course of action. I would like to draw a line under this whole sorry situation and move on with the reason that I joined once my statement has been published and the subsequent discussion has concluded. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    (another (edit conflict) To clarify, I don't think Footballnerd is doing anything malicious or deliberately trying to time-waste. I think they are a misguided new bold editor who unfortunately doesn't listen to advice and is stubborn to self-reflect. If this cban goes ahead I urge them to appeal in 6 months with a better understanding of how wikipedia works, with a more cautious editing style and more acceptance of community opinions. BugGhost 🦗👻 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I am not being malicious, there was only one motivation for my actions - wanting to help.

    My comments on this and the above thread have been ill judged.

    As for the ban, I'd like to ask that I be spared at this moment in time in view of my above comments and the concession statement that I will be posting when I return home. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... GiantSnowman 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Because I'm posting from my phone and I'm not at home. When I return to my PC later today I'll make the statement. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  • Support CBAN. Using a chatbot to generate discussion then denying it when called out is already deeply contemptuous. Turning around and filing a chatbot generated revenge report for people not believing your lies about not using a chatbot? Words fail. Folly Mox (talk) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. GiantSnowman 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. GiantSnowman 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. GiantSnowman 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

    I admit that I did, I just saw the line of "I didn't use ChatGPT" as an easy 'get out of jail card'. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

     Note: for Folly Mox, just to inform you there is a #MENTOR proposal that you may not have seen. I was about to send generic pings to !voters of this section, but it appears all other editors are aware of this proposal already (or voted afterwards at least). This isn't intended to influence your decision, only to provide you updated information. CNC (talk) 23:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support as this behavior is clearly WP:NOTHERE. Simonm223 (talk) 15:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support CBAN as this editor has caused a monumental waste of the volunteer time of other editors, which is our most precious commodity. This is an encyclopedia, not a robot debating society. Cullen328 (talk) 18:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support. First choice would be an indefinite block. Despite the user's sudden acts of contrition, I don't trust them. I don't see them as an asset to the project. As for their recent statement that some think is AI-generated, my guess is it's a mixture, maybe we should call it AI-assisted. However, I wouldn't support an indefinite block if it were just that. What preceded the complaint by GS and their conduct at ANI was egregiously disruptive.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose - I say give them some rope. There is good discussion going on below, and I don't think anything is gained by blocking an editor who does at times add value. We can always revisit this later - and presumably the action would then be quick and obvious. BTW, I thought we all used AI to some extent - certainly when I misspell words like "certainyl" I then accept the AI in chrome changing the spelling. Or even improving the grammar if I turn on those options. Also User:GiantSnowman's numerous draft articles in his userspace always confounds me. I've asked them before to write these articles in draft-space where there can be a collaborative effort, rather than their userspace where they won't let anyone else edit. Nfitz (talk) 00:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Haven't voted in this proposal yet, am abstaining for now per trying to avoid advocacy as potential mentor. The two points I will however question is: would a CBAN solve these issues or postpone them until a later date? Would a 1–2 month mentorship more likely bring about the results of reform or failure much sooner? If we want to talk about WP:WASTEOFTIME as we have do so, it might be worth considering the time wasted in not mentoring a newish editor into the folds of the encyclopedia. CNC (talk) 00:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

MENTOR proposal

Mentorship commitments to uphold by Footballnerd2007 for a suggested one–two month period. Mentor: CommunityNotesContributor.

1. Abide by all policies and guidelines and listen to advise given to you by other editors.
2. No page moves (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval from mentor.
3. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it.
4. No more dishonesty, being evasive, or using AI of any kind in discussions due to laziness.
5. Avoid commenting on all admin noticeboards (unless summoned). If there is a problem, seek advise from mentor.
6. Avoid reverting other editors (either manually, part or in full), unless obvious vandalism.

This goes a bit beyond original requirements, and the last two are effectively preventative measures to try and avoid problems arising. An editor involved exclusively on footy articles has limited to no need for involvement in admin noticeboards. CNC (talk) 17:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree to those principles and am grateful for the mentorship opportunity! Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. CNC (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. GiantSnowman 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. CNC (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No bad - let me rephrase if that helps. I am not opposed to mentoring in place of the current CBAN proposal. GiantSnowman 18:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

• Going to chime in here as someone involved in footy related articles. I've reviewed some of the editors contributions, and despite all the issues raised in this topic that are very problematic, the user has seemingly made good contributions to football related articles. I otherwise don't doubt that the user previously edited with an IP (I'm pretty sure which IP this is based on edit histories, but assuming good faith it's not part of this topic and not relevant either so won't bother referencing). I only state this to deflect from suggestions that this editor could be a sockpuppet, as I strongly don't believe to be the case, instead I suspect about 18 months of low-key editing experience up until now. It's therefore a great shame FN2007 went down this road, even if appears to have now retracted the original complaint. Hopefully they can take on board the requests to avoid controversial edits, especially at other user talkpages and such. I'd like to think this is a case of a user trying to run before they can walk, and if they now pace themselves it could work out in the long-term, but alas the damage has also already been done here it seems. Also as a personal suggestion to the editor, if you're here for football articles, then you should be aiming to stay well away from admin noticeboards as they will rarely ever concern you. Generally there should be relatively low controversy editing football articles, even if most remain contentious topics as BLP. So if football is your editing remit here, you're doing it very badly by ending up at a noticeboard, equally so by opening this topic, even with your good contributions. I am therefore reluctantly offering to act as a WP:MENTOR, if the user can commit to the general policy and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, in the hope of not losing a participant in the under edited area of women's football articles. CNC (talk) 14:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. CNC (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per WP:MENTOR, as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. Reader of Information (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  That's definitely OK with me. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Mainly just everyone else at this point it seems. CNC (talk) 14:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Should I ping? Reader of Information (talk) 14:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I gladly and humbly accept your mentorship offer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Just to be clear, this would be a WP:LASTCHANCE offer, nothing more than that. Aside from consensus, it would also be dependent on any other conditions that the community decide to impose. CNC (talk) 14:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Completely not related but wanting to chime in.

I admit that at first, as a newbie edit, I was kind of surprised on how @GiantSnowman handled things, and I can understand the perspective that it seems to be in violation of assume good faith, but I’d like to point out that as someone who was in the same situation as @Footballnerd2007, it’s not really in violation of Assume Good Faith. He just is very organized but tries his best to help others. Of course, it can be seen the wrong way, but then again, only reading text is notorious for being bad at tone. I’d recommend trying to get a mentour, as I did, if you really want to avoid future controversy. I’d recommend FootballNerd to take up CNC’s mentorship offer. Reader of Information (talk) 14:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Furthermore, no one is perfect. Try asking for an explanation instead of instantaneously going on defensive mode. That will always help. Be humble. Reader of Information (talk) 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I have taken up the mentorship offer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. GiantSnowman 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed, @Reader of Information maybe hold off on pings for now. CNC (talk) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Alright, sounds good. Reader of Information (talk) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Per #Response from Footballnerd2007 I think pings are appropriate now. CNC (talk) 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. CNC (talk) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm now home and will start drafting after lunch. I'll send it you before posting it here. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I see a list of conditions but not an explicit proposal for mentoring. Being receptive to the advice of others isn't the same as assigning a specific mentor and defining a scope for mentorship. Can the proposal be clarified, or else renamed? isaacl (talk) 18:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed Involuntary mentorship. CNC (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for your clarifying edit. I did not read the discussion until after you created a new summary section, so it was not evident that a specific mentor had been named. isaacl (talk) 02:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Response from Footballnerd2007

Good Afternoon all,

Can I start by making something unequivocally clear: my behaviour over the past 24 hours has been unacceptable and has resembled that of a lawyer acting in court, trying to defend my actions in an overly strategic way. This course of action was wrong, and I apologise for it.

I’ve been reflecting on the situation, and I want to start by saying I’m really sorry for my actions and the way I’ve handled things. I know I messed up, and I feel it's important to acknowledge that. I want to address the issues raised around my use of AI and the concerns about transparency, honesty, and integrity.

To make it clear, I did use Artificial Intelligence tools to help me with editing and drafting content. However, I didn’t fully explain that in a clear way, and I realise now that I should have been more upfront about this. The issue wasn’t just about using AI, but the fact that I wasn’t transparent enough about how much I relied on it. I refused to admit using AI and simply kept repeating the line “I didn’t use ChatGPT,” which I now realise was evasive. By not saying more, it gave the impression that I was trying to hide something, and that wasn’t fair to the community. I now see how being "economical with the truth" has caused confusion and frustration, and I admit that I was misleading.

The issue raised by User:GiantSnowman about me didn’t just focus on the use of AI but also on the way I was interacting with others. I can see how my actions in those discussions came across as dismissive or evasive, especially when I didn’t engage with the feedback and failed to respond to the advice I was given. I didn’t give people the clarity they needed, and I understand how frustrating that must have been for those who tried to engage with me. I admit I attempted to “give them the run around.” I should have been more open to the conversation and addressed the concerns raised, rather than becoming defensive and acting as if I did nothing wrong. This is not an attempt to justify it, but I want to admit that the reason I used AI was mainly due to laziness and an attempt to sound more knowledgeable in order to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy.

I also want to address how I behaved today. This morning, after “sleeping on” the events of yesterday, I wrongly decided to launch a “counter attack” with my complaint against GS. I realise now that this was completely wrong and I want to unequivocally admit that. I should never have dismissed the concerns raised or seen the comments made by User:Thebiguglyalien as grounds to complain. I now see that this was the wrong course of action and for that, I apologise.

I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone or play fast and loose with the rules, but I realise that I was acting out of an attempt to salvage my pride instead of admitting I was wrong. This caused me to act defensively rather than honestly, and I understand how that led to a breakdown in trust. I take full responsibility for that. I never meant to cause confusion or frustration, but I can see how I did. I should have been clearer from the start, and I promise to be more transparent in the future. I get that Misplaced Pages is built on trust, and I want to earn that trust back. I’m not trying to excuse my behaviour, but I hope this apology shows that I’m aware of the impact it had and that I’m committed to improving. I pledge that I won’t use AI for WP editing in the future. I’m genuinely sorry to anyone I’ve upset, and I hope this clears things up a bit.

Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 16:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for this. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

You're welcome, I'd really like to put this situation behind us and move on. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, if that was written without AI tools (GPTzero still says it was 100% written by AI, but it looks a lot more "human" to me than your previous efforts) then you can at least write without them. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

To be fair, @Phil Bridger, I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... Nfitz (talk) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

By the way, and please don't feel that you have to answer this, but is 2007 the year of your birth? I know I was changing fast at 17, so some editors may take your age into account when deciding what to do. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from Autism Spectrum Disorder. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate the maturity in acknowledging your errors. I’d like to clarify this as it’s something I avoided mentioning.

The use of AI is not prohibited but heavily frowned upon. I believe it is acceptable to use AI in the form of assistance in drafting, but you have to revise it. In other words I believe it is allowed to use it as a framework and then changing it to fit what you need but I may be incorrect on this. Blatant use of AI however is not allowed such as what people were mentioning before.

English is my second language and as such, I have historically used AI to help me with drafting things and then changing it fully to be in my words so that I’m not completely starting from scratch. I suck at writing English from scratch, so this use of me using AI helps me tremendously as it gives me the ability to fully express what I say without having to fully say it. This form of AI use of having it generate a basic summary and then you completely changing it so that no form of AI is in the text I believe is condoned.

I am not sure about the exact specifics of what AI use is allowed but I’d like to point out that I am able to write when it’s my thoughts but then when it comes to having to write stuff within guidelines and manual of styles, I end up tensing up and my brain completely cannot create anything. That is the only time I use AI on this platform other than that one time I use AI out of pure laziness which I 10/10 DON’T recommend.

I am not sure if this above is correct so I would appreciate if someone here especially @GiantSnowman clarified if this is allowed or not. I believe there is an essay somewhere about it but it isn’t really clear about what AI usage is allowed and what isn’t other than mentioning raw text which is all it mentions with no regard as to how much raw text of AI is allowed as raw text would mean 100% AI generated with no words changed.

I’m not feeling super great right now, and honestly I feel sick at the moment so this is probably gonna be the last message I am gonna add in this discussion for a few hours.

Cheers,

Reader of Information (talk) 19:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

You are looking for WP:LLM. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. GiantSnowman 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Courtesy pings to increase discussion as the following pings all commented in the sections prior.

@Nfitz

@Phil Bridger

@GiantSnowman

@Footballnerd2007

@Black Kite:

@Bugghost:

@Isaacl:

@CommunityNotesContributor:

@Randy Kryn:

@Bbb23:

@Cullen328:

@Simonm223:

@Folly Mox:

@Bgsu98:

@Yamla:

Sorry for the delay CNC.

Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Please don't send mass ping notifications to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. isaacl (talk) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Yes, of course, a very good statement of contrition and hope for future editing (hopefully not all AI). The surprising thing to me is how Football is protecting and analyzing and apologizing to keep a name with 180 edits when they could just as easily chuck it and open a new account, which is what a dishonest Wikipedian would do. Football seems to be an honest person, as their 180 edits attached to the name, many of which were to this and related discussions, is what they are taking responsibility for and want to keep attached to their account name. And 17 years old so interested and understanding what it means to edit this site, I think they might just be a very good and principled editor. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

User:49.206.48.151

Blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Please keep User:49.206.48.151 off my talk page . See also . --Wrongfilter (talk) 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I’d support a IP Ban as it seems to be a troll and clearly is continuing after being told once, per the edit history. Reader of Information (talk) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I have given them a warning - if they continue, let me know. In future you should try and talk to them before coming to ANI. GiantSnowman 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

They continued . Lavalizard101 (talk) 15:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Blocked, thanks. GiantSnowman 15:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2403:580E:EB64:0::/64: disruptive changes to UK nationalities

Blocktannia rules the page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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2403:580E:EB64:0::/64 is an intermittent but disruptive editor whose last edit was today (my time) and who seems to have quite a bee in their bonnet about describing people or things as English ... they very much prefer them to be described as British. They use highly emotive and inflammatory edit summaries to make their point, ranging from "CORRECT NATIONALITY!!! BRITISH!!" to "GET THE FCKING NATIONALITY RIGHT MERKINS!!! ENGLAND IS NOT A COUNTRY SINCE 1707 ACT OF UNION FFS!!! WICKEDPEDIA". They have been warned in September 2024 and twice in December 2024. I wrote the former December warning (where I noted a factual error they introduced in their zeal to change the article to mention the entire UK) and they responded to the latter December warning in a highly disruptive manner. I think some sort of block is in order, at the very least. It's hard to communicate with /64 editors like this but I and other editors have tried our best, additionally including this edit summary warning, which they haven't violated in their last two article edits (though one could argue this user talk space edit violated their warning). Graham87 (talk) 15:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• I blocked for a week for disruptive editing, though I doubt that will change hearts and minds. Drmies (talk) 16:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New Family Family Rises Again

Blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:31, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• New Family Family Rises Again (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Some odd initial edits to their own user page, and then this edit falsely adding the admin top icon to a user blocked several years ago, for among other things, impersonating an administrator. Probably a sock, but even if not, something is amiss. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 16:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't even initially realize those odd initial edits were back in 2020, around the time when said other user was blocked. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 16:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

That this was the user's first edit in 5 years is definitely strange. I reverted their latest one. Hellbus (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I have blocked New Family Family Rises Again as not here to build an encyclopedia. We do not need trolls who lie, even if their editing is infrequent. Cullen328 (talk) 19:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Category:

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