Revision as of 00:14, 23 December 2012 editKillerChihuahua (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users34,578 edits →Reply to your post on Talk:God: and I create another typo when I try to fix this one, of course of course. Fixing.← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 14:22, 8 April 2023 edit undoMalnadachBot (talk | contribs)11,637,095 editsm Fixed Lint errors. (Task 12)Tag: AWB | ||
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==Your recent edits== | |||
] Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to ] and Misplaced Pages pages that have open discussion, you should ] by typing four ]s ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You could also click on the signature button ] or ] located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when they said it. Thank you. <!-- Template:uw-tilde --> --] (]) 05:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
== Afd listing of Spiritual agnosticism == | |||
Sorry about that! I saw you'd gone to notify the article creator, and thought you'd missed the bit where you add the nom to the log for the day. ]] 20:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
:It's alright. What takes you 10 seconds takes me about an hour ] (]) 20:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Eh, I've been here a while. Took me forever when I first started too. It was more the ''order'' of your edits than the time taken. ]] 20:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
::This conversation made me start wondering, and my ] contribution at Afd was ''also'' for an ] article. ]] 20:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
==Please comment on ]== | |||
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:Ok, now that's funny. Don't be discouraged; the bot doesn't check to see if someone has commented already before posting an invite on their usertalk page; every now and then you will get an invite to an Rfc to which you've already contributed. ]] 13:55, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Nevertheless, I think I should add my opinion on this issue of Carl Sagan being a pantheist. ] (]) 17:36, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
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== Suggestion == | |||
May I suggest that if you are changing your username so that people don't make assumptions about you based on your uName that you choose something other than ''NaturaNaturans''? It reads as though you're either a pantheist or a naturalist/nature lover/environmentalist, or both. Try to think of something truly neutral, like UncleBob or BobEdits or EditorBob or TooTallToType or YellowBalloons or something. Something which hints at nothing about you, but makes you Everyman. Just a suggestion. ]] 19:55, 6 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Those are assumptions I don't mind. Plus it's a relatively unknown phrase used by a philosopher over 300 years ago, and if people look it up, I wouldn't mind that either. ] (]) 23:55, 6 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Ok excellent, if those are potential associations you wouldn't mind, then no worries. I just thought since I knew you weren't happy with some of the associations you've encountered thus far with your current uName, I should mention the possibility. ]] 00:40, 7 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Storig == | |||
Hi NaturaNaturans. I came across your name while looking up Spinoza in Storig. Nice name ] Getting your point of view, thanks to the name. I started doing some cleaning-up of ]. Greetings, ] -] 19:09, 8 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Pantheism/panenteism == | |||
I'm going to continue the talk here. I would like to know more on pan(en)theism, but I don't know if the Talk Page of ] is the right place for that. ] -] 05:37, 9 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
I get the impression that . If the Monism-article contains short definitions/overviews of the various sorts of pantheism, then "Nondualism (ms)" fits in in a logical way, doesn't it? Greetings, ] -] 20:43, 8 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Pantheism/panentheism are about God/divinity, whereas non-dualism/monism are more general descriptors. They often ''imply'' divinity, but divinity is not completely necessary for the view of non-dualism/monism. As for it being closer to pantheism or panentheism - that all depends and scholars debate about these things. Panentheism's main disagreement with pantheism is the idea that God/divinity are limited to what we call 'everything'. They say that God/divinity transcends everything. ] (]) 01:09, 9 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
::So, | |||
::* Pantheism says "God/divinity are limited to what we call 'everything'"? | |||
::* And panentheism says "God/divinity transcends everything"? | |||
::* What is meant with "everything"? | |||
::* Wouldn't a panentheist include god/divinity into everything? | |||
::* And how would you label "nondualism"? | |||
::* and where does Heidegger fit in? | |||
::I sound like a four-year-old, don't I, asking "why-why-why-why?!?" Greetings, ] -] 05:37, 9 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::yes panentheism includes god/divinity into everything, but wants to insist God is beyond everything...everything often means the natural (vs supernatural)...but the line between pantheism and panentheism is actually very blurry because definitions of 'everything' can vary. Nondualism/monism is closest to pantheism. The most popular forms of panentheism are not at all monist/nondualist - in fact, process theology goes against pantheism specifically because they insist on rejecting monism. As for Heidegger and all of his 'nothingness' philosophy, I have no idea how to classify him in relation to these subjects. Maybe nobody has ever really classified him because nobody knows what he's talking about. By the way, there are articles about these subjects here on Misplaced Pages ;) ] (]) 08:43, 9 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Thanks for the answers. I'll ponder over them, to get the nuances. Greetings, ] -] 08:47, 9 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
== NLP == | |||
The lede is meant to summarise the article, and there is more than enough material in the main body to support that summary. We have far too many references in the lede anyway as a result of past controversies. The pseudo-science point in particular has been debates time and time again always with the same result - it is what the balance of scientific opinion calls NLP. Given the periodic periods of high controversy on the article, the fact that it remains under arbcom restrictions and has a strong history of disruptive behaviour including sock and meat puppetry, please use the talk page to gain consensus before making changes that are likely to be controversial ----] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 04:45, 27 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
:You ought to put this on the article talk page not here. The article is terrible and makes Misplaced Pages look bad. Please be less overzealous with your policing of the article and allow others to contribute. ] (]) 06:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Thank you for your determination at ] == | |||
I fullthroatedly endorse your administrative determination as to the ] page that that John Oakley material was improperly placed and ought to be removed. Blessings!! ] (]) 20:01, 31 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
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== ]? == | |||
So I came across this page, ], and I thought, if it is appropriate to have such a page, then we ought to have, as well, a page on literature with pantheistic themes (though this would surely have more poetry, the ] sort of stuff, and so I don't limit this notion to novels). Yes? ] (]) 21:50, 18 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
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== hi! Albert Einstein == | |||
Hi, I've opened an NPOV discussion to give me advice and help. I have to notify you. Do not think that I am "dragging you in front of a noticeboard". I'm not. Like I say, I'm asking for guidance for my own editing. Here's the auto generated template thing ==Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion== | |||
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== Jung == | |||
Hi, I saw your recent edit on ], but suspect "pantheist" is not good representation of him. As far as I read (mostly ''Psychology and Religion'') he insists his theories have no metaphysical import. Now I don't know about his personal belief and what they led him to. So if you have way to send me the relevant pages from the book you cited, or another source, I will be grateful. ] (]) 15:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Sure Danny, there are two "Psychology and Religion" books by Andrew R. Fuller, College of Staten Island. "Psychology and Religion: Eight Points of View, 1994 - Page 111" states directly: "Jung's psychology turns out in fact to be pantheistic metaphysics." In 2008, he published "Psychology and Religion: Classical Theorists and Contemporary Developments" and calls the view "Jungian pantheism" on p 101 (in the conclusion). These pages can be accessed in Google Books. | |||
:There's another article that states in its intro, ""He believed himself to be possessed of two personalities, one pointing towards science and the other towards pantheism and the arts." He later points out, "Jung sees as an evidence of realities about human beings and the world which its doctrines and dogmas only indirectly address." (the 'realities' being a "collective unconscious"). There are other theologians who link the collective unconscious with pantheism and the mystical 'everything is god' idea (probably in order to distinguish Jung's views with theism). But Fuller I think would be the best source because he is the primary expert on the matter. ] (]) 20:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::OK. I was unclear as usual. Gbooks only show the one sentence you quoted of pg 111 for this client. This is enough to see Fuller makes the link, but the case behind it is still a mystery, and I hoped you have it in electronic form. Jung's distinction is in his own ''Psychology and Religion'' lectures from 1938. Plus ''The Encyclopedia of Religion, 2nd edition'' ( 2004 / older . Macmillan/Thomson/Gale) warns "Jung bristled at his characterization, especially by theologians, as a metaphysician." | |||
::That's why I think the source should be regarded skeptically, and one commentator might not be enough. This is no big deal, your addition is cautious as it is. Yet a recent similar discussion at ] (I was not a party) reminded me that delicate thinkers are better not too readily categorized. The Kay article is a start but you seem to appreciate some useful argument in Fuller, what is it? ] (]) 23:33, 2 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Fuller catalogs the assumptions Jung makes about "God" - that God is the "opposite" of the ego; that Freud's God was sex; that the absence of God results in a void that must be filled (more than one scholar mention Jung's interest and assumptions about Nietzsche's God void being the cause of his illness as a way to show Jung's 'metaphysical' assumptions). Fuller writes: "Jung feels it is better to give conscious recognition to the tremendous influence of the collective unconscious relative to the ego and call it "God," the name it has always had (1956, p 81)." Jung's assumption: that God is the name it 'has always had' is based on a pantheistic assumption that the collective unconscious IS a reality and it's name is God. That's the main argument, that Jung assumes God exists and IS the collective unconscious (whether or not there is 'proof'). He writes: " remarks that God and the boundless and unified cosmos that constitutes "God's world" were realities of his experience." | |||
:::Spinoza could have written that last line. I agree with you about skepticism and caution, but these are very clear expressions of pantheism despite Jung's denial of "metaphysics". Labels like "pantheism" are almost never embraced by the people they are applied to. As an aside, Jung's ideas can also be called ] which is not yet mentioned in the Wiki article but sources for that are plentiful. Panpsychism + the God label = Spinoza style pantheism. ] (]) 05:04, 4 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Danny here's some extra stuff I came across, a great example of Jung's metaphysical assumptions and obvious panpsychism from 1946 "On the Nature of the Psyche": Jung: "Since psyche and matter are contained in one and the same world, and moreover are in continuous contact with one another and ultimately rest on irrepresentable, transcendental factors, it is not only possible but fairly probable even that psyche and matter are two different aspects of one and the same thing." That is nearly the exact metaphysical claim of Nietzsche and Spinoza. He later calls it the collective unconscious a.k.a. "God". That's very clearly pantheism, similar to Einstein and Spinoza's thinking. I suppose if I came up with it in this specific quote and his God statements someone could accuse me of ], but Fuller puts it together well in a similar and correct way. ] (]) 05:23, 4 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
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== December 2013 == | |||
] Stop '''edit warring''' at ], if you have some suggestion, you can discuss it in the talk page, instead of enforcing the change on which no one has agreed yet, nor you have made any valid argument. Or else if you continued edit warring, you can be '''] without further notice'''. <!-- Template:uw-delete4 --> ] (]) 05:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Ironic since you are doing the edit warring ] (]) 05:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
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== 2nd time == | |||
] Stop '''edit warring''' at ], if you have some suggestion, you can discuss it in the talk page, instead of enforcing the change on which no one has agreed yet, nor you have made any valid argument. Or else if you continued edit warring, you can be '''] without further notice'''. <!-- Template:uw-delete4 --> ] (]) 08:12, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Re: List of Pantheists / Pantheism Articles == | |||
Hello, please see the steps at ]. Misplaced Pages also has an ] that can be used for reports like this. ''']'''] 08:37, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Yes, you responded at the right place. However despite being an admin, I don't specialize in this sort of thing at all. Try the ]. Technically, you both are probably edit-warring by now, but I'm not going to block either of you for it (seeing as I've never made a block remotely like it in my over six years as a Misplaced Pages admin). | |||
:However, it is true that ] in the lead section, because it should summarise the rest of the article. Whether and how this applies to your specific case, I don't know; I've only gotten into this mess because ] is on my watchlist, and I don't plan to be further involved in this dispute. ''']'''] 14:43, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
::OK, thank you anyway. ] (]) 15:05, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
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I would not be one to throw a "citation needed" tag there, as I have no doubt that you are correct, but it might yet be good (and not too difficult) to track down a citation or two for the proposition of Bruno being deemed a Pantheist. I suppose, as well, that some will call him a Panentheist. Blessings!! ] (]) 05:12, 11 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
:In my research, he is actually the second most often mentioned "pantheist" in academic work after Spinoza. I will throw in a few citations, thanks for the suggestion. ] (]) 16:51, 18 April 2014 (UTC) | |||
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== Molyneux == | |||
At ], you wrote "the qualifier "political philosopher" might be more reasonable". Have you seen the list here ]? His output is in more than just the political area. He's written a book on ethics called ''UPB'' and a book on atheism (metaphysical philosophy) called ''Against the Gods'', both of which have been cited and commented on by other philosophers. This I think is why the single word "philosopher" is best in the first sentence to cover the whole range, as the details are worked out in the main body. -- ] ] 05:05, 30 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
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==Pantheism== | |||
Watch your revert count, you have exceeded your 3 revert / 24 hour limit. See ]. Please discuss your issues in ]. Edit warring can result in a block. Cheers ] (]) 05:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
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:Thank you for letting me know. How do you deal with someone who tries to control a page and cannot be reasoned with in the talk section? (] (]) 05:16, 7 June 2012 (UTC)) | |||
::] would be a good place. Thanks ] (]) 07:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
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:will do. thanks | |||
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== Naturalistic Pantheism and Classical Pantheism == | |||
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I hope you have read that I am on the case with the Naturalistic Pantheism page, where I agree completely that there was far too much about the World Pantheist Movement and wider sources are required. It would greatly simplify both our lives if you could give me a few days respite before editing that page.--] (]) 18:17, 30 August 2012 (UTC) | |||
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:Why? I was going to remove the nonsense material either way. Listen, it's really obvious that NP has been defined in a way you are obviously going to be uncomfortable with (both to my surprise and apparently to yours). If you'll be editing the page, we might just want to go straight to dispute resolution and not waste time on edit wars. NP is most often attributed to Spinoza and determinism, just like Classical Pantheism. Are you going to live with the facts or fight reality? | |||
Of course I will be editing the page. There is no way that you have looked at more than a minute percentage of all the 1780 book references, and you look at them in a biassed way seeking confimration of your own position only. You are in no position to state what the term is "most frequently" used for. Whether it's attributed to Spinoza is irrelevant - because in many ways he is a good representative of Naturalistic Pantheism as defined by the others cited here (''deus sive natura'', Tractatus Theologico-Politicus chs 4 and 6). <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:14, 30 August 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
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== Reply to your post on Talk:God == | |||
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Reply to your post on Talk:God: No threat was made or implied. Regarding Misplaced Pages policies: it is generally considered part of an administrator's job to point editors to policy, to explain policy and to enforce policy. If my language appears overbearing, I suggest it may be a cultural issue. I attempt clarity and brevity; it may be that you are taking that as overbearing rather than terse. I note you are trying to abbreviate my name in some edit summaries; I don't blame you, it's a pain to type. May I suggest KC or Puppy; I am called both here. <small>(Mind you, I'm a 50 year old puppy, but O]... etc.) </small> Please let me know if you still have questions, concerns or complaints. Please simply reply here; I will watchlist your page. ]] 19:28, 11 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for the message KC and I appreciate your explanation. A part of the issue is that you are simultaneously taking on the role of an administrator and also an opinionated editor. You happen to be both and have every right to take on both roles, but it would be helpful to be clear with what role you are representing when commenting because, as I said, it appeared overbearing to me. In any case, I appreciate the sincere message and will exercise more thoughtfulness on my part as well. ] (]) 06:03, 12 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
::Well, obviously I have an opinion, but are you sure you meant to call me ''"Conceitedly assertive and dogmatic in one's opinions; obstinate - headstrong - stubborn - self-willed"''? There is a difference between having an opinion, even a strong opinion, and being an ass. I would appreciate clarification from you. ]] 16:16, 12 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
:::No comment. Let's move forward. ] (]) 17:23, 13 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
:::: As you wish; I move forward in the clear opinion that you just basically called me an ass, and when asked for clarification, you chose to say "no comment" which is generally reserved for politicians caught with a mistress or their hand in the till. ]] 16:37, 16 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
:::::No, you called yourself an ass. You can call yourself whatever you wish. It seems to me like you're trying to bait me into an argument. Why is that? Is that a policy I missed? ] (]) 11:51, 17 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
::::::: In what alternate version of English is me explaining what a word you used to describe me is generally taken to mean, complete with a helpful link, and then summarizing by saying "''You basically called me an ass''" is somehow twisted around to mean I took that appellation upon myself? This is bordering on trolling, now. ]] 17:46, 18 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Since when does "opinionated" mean "being an ass"? Those are your words not mine. I wonder, does Misplaced Pages have a policy about victimization or playing a victim? If not, you are demonstrating that they ought to have this policy. ] (]) 20:57, 18 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
::::::::: Passive-agressive behavior is what you are accusing me of, I presume, however nothing could be further from the truth. I am trying to help you, as I have already told you many times. Your hostile reception of my attempts is not useful; try to understand what I am saying, rather than assuming bad faith. | |||
::::::::: Regarding "ass"; why yes, I consider ''"Conceitedly assertive and dogmatic in one's opinions; obstinate - headstrong - stubborn - self-willed"'' to be more or less an ass; as you called me that then as I said above, ''"you just '''basically''' called me an ass"'' - you may disagree that you meant to do so, you may disagree that ''"Conceitedly assertive and dogmatic in one's opinions; obstinate - headstrong - stubborn - self-willed"'' is being an ass; you may decide that was exactly what you wanted to call me; but saying I called myself that does not parse if you read our discussion thus far. "Basically" is obviously a disclaimer that it was not a verbatim quote but a summation, paraphrase or synonym. I surprised each time you reply to me at your hostility and rudeness; I'm tired of your ]; I am about out of patience with you. I thought you would be a good editor if you learned how to do things around here without pissing everyone off and/or breaking policy; I'm wishing now I'd never wasted my time trying to mentor you and help you, since you seem determined to be argumentative and accusatory, no matter how I approach you. ]] 22:15, 18 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::You suggested I called you an ass when all I said is you're "opinionated". Then you said I'm like a politician "caught with a mistress or their hand in the till"; then you accused me of "trolling"; now you're accusing me of "hostility and rudeness"... and I'M assuming bad faith??? I suggest you have some editors that you respect come read this thread and tell you what they think. If you are trying to help great but I think most people can see by reading this thread that YOU are the one making most of the assumptions and making ]. ] (]) 04:27, 19 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
(outdent) I'm quite serious. If you look at the beginning of this mess, I '''asked''' are you sure that's what you wanted to say? and gave a helpful link to show all those words are from the definition of, or are synonyms for, opinionated. Please go click that link (which I added twice n this section of your talk page.) I stated my thought that perhaps you'd meant I have strong opinions, and did not mean to call me those names. You responded ''No comment'' - which specific response I criticised when I said that phrase is generally used for politicians with somehting to hide, and I stand by that - I think you chose poorly when you used it - and I made sure you were ok with leaving me with the impression that was what you meant to call me - at which point you went over a logical cliff from my point of view, and accused me of calling myself that. So here we are now, and Yes, I am quite serious. I did not ABF, I asked, several times, and you've done nothing but tell me it's me saying what you said, and further accusations. Please take your time and re-read this very section. ]] 13:57, 19 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
:Your English writing sounds better than mine (I'm born and raised in the U.S.) so until now I did not really assume you were seriously "asking" me what 'opinionated' means. The word suggests its own meaning of 'having lots of opinions' and/or 'having strong opinions'. The definition that pops up on Google has a negative exaggeration (although most of that description still doesn't amount to 'name-calling'; a brilliant person is often stubborn and has been known to be called "conceitedly assertive and dogmatic in one's opinions", for example), I thought you were purposefully looking for something to argue with me about by citing that. If somebody calls me "opinionated" I do not consider it particularly offensive or derogatory (and certainly not 'being an ass'). Most great minds are considered "opinionated". My point was that if I have strong stubborn opinions AND I am an administrator, those two roles may conflict and cause issues, and I believe they did in our Talk:God discussion. When you cited that definition it sounded to me like you wanted me to expand on my statement with a bunch of examples and get into a further debate, which I did not wish to go into any longer, so I stated, "No comment. Let's move forward" - which I actually thought was a way to get out of the mess, but then your reaction a few days later was a surprise to me but apparently a misunderstanding and wrong assumptions both ways. Sorry I did not take the effort to just explain what i meant by opinionated, I had no idea it was a sincere question. ] (]) 01:26, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
:::I submit for your consideration that if you and Google definitions disagree about a word's meaning, Google is more likely to be correct. That is not an "exaggeration", it is the correct meaning of the word, as I stated in my very first post on the subject, one may have strong opinions without being "opinionated" which does indeed carry with it strong negative connotations, despite your apparent ignorance of that and your willingness to argue with dictionaries. So no, I was ''not'' asking you what opinionated meant; I was ''telling'' you, in the form of a helpful link, and then asking if that was what you truly meant to say; to which you responded "no comment" rather than confirming or correcting. In the future, try to ] a little more; absent strong evidence to the contrary, everyone here should be assumed to be trying their best to improve the encyclopedia, and to be sincere and positive in their communications. Whenever you assume ill of someone's statements, rather than trying to take it in the most positive interpretation possible, you are very likely committing an injustice against them. Regarding my response to your "no comment" I stand by my assertion that is generally used, largely by politicians, as a way to not discuss negative statements about them; your use of it rather than correcting what you meant to say was unnecessarily abstruse. We have ] on it, but it's not very good. I recommend instead the much clearer Urban dictionary ; ''"The reply to a question that you wish not to answer due to the inconvenience that your response may incriminate you in one way or another."'' as indicating the generally accepted interpretation of "no comment" as a response. As a side note, I utterly disagree that ''Most great minds are considered "opinionated"'' and will hold to that view lacking a ] supporting that assertion. Am I to take it that you did not, then, intend to insult me and you meant "having strong opinions" rather than "opinionated" (with its actual, dictionary meaning complete with all its negative connotations)? ]] 16:59, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
::::You're lecturing me in being "sincere and positive" in my communication and then calling me ignorant and abstruce. Please go "help" someone else. I'm no longer interested. ] (]) 08:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
::::::No, I did not. Do you bother to read anything I say, or do you just half-ass scan it???? That's a serious question, this is not the first time you've gotten something I said completely backwards. Please note I am STILL assuming good faith; I presume if you took the care to ''read'' rather than merely ''scan'' you'd comprehend and respond so; I do not assume you ''do'' understand and are only twisting my words backwards to annoy me, troll-like. | |||
::::::I was not telling ''you'' to be positive and helpful, I was telling you to try to read anything anyone else says to you as though you were positive ''they'' were trying {{gi|t}}o be positive and helpful. If you ever actually understand anything I say on the first go, I might decide you don't need help. but as it is you are merely providing more evidence that you ''do''. ]] 13:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I've been reading your words very carefully and I think you need some help, actually. I'm making a complaint because this is harassment. ] (]) 09:43, 22 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
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Allisgod, I was about to make some comments in the ANI thread, but it was closed. Having read the thread above, I get a pretty good feeling that it was the genesis of your complaint on ANI - however, at the same time, I get a pretty good feeling you either misread or misinterpreted a great deal of the above thread as well. | |||
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As I read the above thread, KC appears to be genuinely attempting to guide you - you appear to have become belligerent by ascribing your own personal meaning into something, then full-out refusing to explain yourself. It is, indeed, a challenge to accuse someone else of doing that when you were the first one to do it. | |||
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Complaints of "admin abuse" are important to investigate - and as such, we require evidence. If the above is your evidence, then I hate to say that the evidence ]. That does not stop you from feeling like you have been insulted - I encourage you to re-read the entire exchange from a different point of view. Take a look at where ''your'' statements actually ''inflamed'' the situation, rather than calming it. | |||
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Please also be careful with throwing even further inflammatory words around: for example, you claim "harassment", which is a word that has very ]. Accusing others of being "friends" merely weakens your own argument. Please recognize I'm not here to trash you, undermine your feelings, but to simply ask you to review your personal actions in order to help resolve what appears to be a mostly self-inflicted wound (]''']''']) 12:04, 22 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
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:I assure you I've already reread through the threads. Your 'feeling' on this matter is because my discussions with her do not in any way start on this page and you need to read it all to understand what she is doing. It starts in the page and that's where most of the problems escalate to her making a threat and a series of insults which I called her out on and led her to bring the discussion to my talk page. But what does it matter really? I don't have time to read every Misplaced Pages policy to figure out how to game this system to get my way just to improve articles that are being controlled by people like KC. Waste of time was the lesson for me today. In the real world, people like me are intelligent successful fortunate healthy people. But people like KC probably need to behave as they do to find a place to achieve these same feelings ..in this virtual environment.. which clearly leaves limited room for a person like me. She wins! Yay, I wonder what she won. I will refocus on my chosen environment, completely avoiding people like her. ] (]) 12:56, 22 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
Message delivered to you with love by ] :) | Is this wrong? Contact ]. | Sent at 18:07, 17 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
::Allisgod - KC gave you some great advice above, mainly: "read anything anyone else says to you as though you were positive they were trying o be positive and helpful." Bwilkins and others have given you advice and you've taken it as if they are against you. The idea of Misplaced Pages is that no one is against anyone. You can work with atheists as a believer and build a well rounded Misplaced Pages article (not that I know if KC is one or not). The problem comes to play when you start perceiving others as 'opponents' and take their advice as criticism. Step back for a moment and pretend you are not 'Allisgod.' You are a random 3rd disinterested party with no prior feelings about KC or anyone else. Reread the discussions again and see how you feel.--v/r - ]] 17:38, 22 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
:::Wow, so you made a conclusion based on a clear prejudice you have for my username - which had nothing to do with the discussion at all. But of course you have 'nothing against me'. This just gets better and better. ] (]) 20:02, 22 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
:::: To be honest, nobody that has posted on your talkpage today has anything "against you" whatsoever. We're sincerely trying to bring you about understanding the community norms, rules, and policies that you agreed to when you starting editing this private website. We're not admins because of power - we're admins because we serve the community. (]''']''']) 20:58, 22 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
::::: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest comes to mind. We're just here to 'help' you! Like I said on that other page, no wonder so many expert editors give up on Misplaced Pages. It's like cops overseeing cops. As long as this structure doesn't change, this website's relevance will fade and all your 'help' will prove to be a giant waste of time. But don't worry, I'm just going back to being one of the people you all write about. Carry on. ] (]) 21:24, 22 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
::::::Nothing lasts; neither you or I nor the sun or the sky, our clock runs fast, the time is nigh. You can make this place whatever you desire, a personal heaven or a burning hell, it's your choice. You can spend your precious minutes complaining and spreading negativity, or you can build beautiful things and bask in their luminous glow. What will you do? ] (]) 00:04, 23 December 2012 (UTC) |
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Afd listing of Spiritual agnosticism
Sorry about that! I saw you'd gone to notify the article creator, and thought you'd missed the bit where you add the nom to the log for the day. KillerChihuahua 20:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's alright. What takes you 10 seconds takes me about an hour Allisgod (talk) 20:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Eh, I've been here a while. Took me forever when I first started too. It was more the order of your edits than the time taken. KillerChihuahua 20:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- This conversation made me start wondering, and my very first contribution at Afd was also for an OR article. KillerChihuahua 20:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:List of pantheists
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- Ok, now that's funny. Don't be discouraged; the bot doesn't check to see if someone has commented already before posting an invite on their usertalk page; every now and then you will get an invite to an Rfc to which you've already contributed. KillerChihuahua 13:55, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Nevertheless, I think I should add my opinion on this issue of Carl Sagan being a pantheist. Allisgod (talk) 17:36, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming
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Suggestion
May I suggest that if you are changing your username so that people don't make assumptions about you based on your uName that you choose something other than NaturaNaturans? It reads as though you're either a pantheist or a naturalist/nature lover/environmentalist, or both. Try to think of something truly neutral, like UncleBob or BobEdits or EditorBob or TooTallToType or YellowBalloons or something. Something which hints at nothing about you, but makes you Everyman. Just a suggestion. KillerChihuahua 19:55, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Those are assumptions I don't mind. Plus it's a relatively unknown phrase used by a philosopher over 300 years ago, and if people look it up, I wouldn't mind that either. Allisgod (talk) 23:55, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Ok excellent, if those are potential associations you wouldn't mind, then no worries. I just thought since I knew you weren't happy with some of the associations you've encountered thus far with your current uName, I should mention the possibility. KillerChihuahua 00:40, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Storig
Hi NaturaNaturans. I came across your name while looking up Spinoza in Storig. Nice name Getting your point of view, thanks to the name. I started doing some cleaning-up of Monism. Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:09, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Pantheism/panenteism
I'm going to continue the talk here. I would like to know more on pan(en)theism, but I don't know if the Talk Page of Nondualism is the right place for that. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:37, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
I get the impression that "Nondualism (modern spirituality)" is some sort of panentheism. If the Monism-article contains short definitions/overviews of the various sorts of pantheism, then "Nondualism (ms)" fits in in a logical way, doesn't it? Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:43, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
- Pantheism/panentheism are about God/divinity, whereas non-dualism/monism are more general descriptors. They often imply divinity, but divinity is not completely necessary for the view of non-dualism/monism. As for it being closer to pantheism or panentheism - that all depends and scholars debate about these things. Panentheism's main disagreement with pantheism is the idea that God/divinity are limited to what we call 'everything'. They say that God/divinity transcends everything. NaturaNaturans (talk) 01:09, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
- So,
- Pantheism says "God/divinity are limited to what we call 'everything'"?
- And panentheism says "God/divinity transcends everything"?
- What is meant with "everything"?
- Wouldn't a panentheist include god/divinity into everything?
- And how would you label "nondualism"?
- and where does Heidegger fit in?
- I sound like a four-year-old, don't I, asking "why-why-why-why?!?" Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:37, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
- yes panentheism includes god/divinity into everything, but wants to insist God is beyond everything...everything often means the natural (vs supernatural)...but the line between pantheism and panentheism is actually very blurry because definitions of 'everything' can vary. Nondualism/monism is closest to pantheism. The most popular forms of panentheism are not at all monist/nondualist - in fact, process theology goes against pantheism specifically because they insist on rejecting monism. As for Heidegger and all of his 'nothingness' philosophy, I have no idea how to classify him in relation to these subjects. Maybe nobody has ever really classified him because nobody knows what he's talking about. By the way, there are articles about these subjects here on Misplaced Pages ;) NaturaNaturans (talk) 08:43, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
- So,
- Thanks for the answers. I'll ponder over them, to get the nuances. Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:47, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
NLP
The lede is meant to summarise the article, and there is more than enough material in the main body to support that summary. We have far too many references in the lede anyway as a result of past controversies. The pseudo-science point in particular has been debates time and time again always with the same result - it is what the balance of scientific opinion calls NLP. Given the periodic periods of high controversy on the article, the fact that it remains under arbcom restrictions and has a strong history of disruptive behaviour including sock and meat puppetry, please use the talk page to gain consensus before making changes that are likely to be controversial ----Snowded 04:45, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- You ought to put this on the article talk page not here. The article is terrible and makes Misplaced Pages look bad. Please be less overzealous with your policing of the article and allow others to contribute. NaturaNaturans (talk) 06:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for your determination at Pandeism
I fullthroatedly endorse your administrative determination as to the Pandeism page that that John Oakley material was improperly placed and ought to be removed. Blessings!! DeistCosmos (talk) 20:01, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Gospel of the Hebrews
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Pantheist literature?
So I came across this page, Christian novel, and I thought, if it is appropriate to have such a page, then we ought to have, as well, a page on literature with pantheistic themes (though this would surely have more poetry, the Walt Whitman sort of stuff, and so I don't limit this notion to novels). Yes? DeistCosmos (talk) 21:50, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Ransom theory of atonement
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Please comment on Talk:List of new religious movements
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Please comment on Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)
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Please comment on Talk:John Calvin
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hi! Albert Einstein
Hi, I've opened an NPOV discussion to give me advice and help. I have to notify you. Do not think that I am "dragging you in front of a noticeboard". I'm not. Like I say, I'm asking for guidance for my own editing. Here's the auto generated template thing ==Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion== Hello, NaturaNaturans. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. 149.254.56.143 (talk) 21:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Jung
Hi, I saw your recent edit on Jung, but suspect "pantheist" is not good representation of him. As far as I read (mostly Psychology and Religion) he insists his theories have no metaphysical import. Now I don't know about his personal belief and what they led him to. So if you have way to send me the relevant pages from the book you cited, or another source, I will be grateful. trespassers william (talk) 15:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
- Sure Danny, there are two "Psychology and Religion" books by Andrew R. Fuller, College of Staten Island. "Psychology and Religion: Eight Points of View, 1994 - Page 111" states directly: "Jung's psychology turns out in fact to be pantheistic metaphysics." In 2008, he published "Psychology and Religion: Classical Theorists and Contemporary Developments" and calls the view "Jungian pantheism" on p 101 (in the conclusion). These pages can be accessed in Google Books.
- There's another article "here" that states in its intro, ""He believed himself to be possessed of two personalities, one pointing towards science and the other towards pantheism and the arts." He later points out, "Jung sees as an evidence of realities about human beings and the world which its doctrines and dogmas only indirectly address." (the 'realities' being a "collective unconscious"). There are other theologians who link the collective unconscious with pantheism and the mystical 'everything is god' idea (probably in order to distinguish Jung's views with theism). But Fuller I think would be the best source because he is the primary expert on the matter. NaturaNaturans (talk) 20:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
- OK. I was unclear as usual. Gbooks only show the one sentence you quoted of pg 111 for this client. This is enough to see Fuller makes the link, but the case behind it is still a mystery, and I hoped you have it in electronic form. Jung's distinction is in his own Psychology and Religion lectures from 1938. Plus The Encyclopedia of Religion, 2nd edition ( 2004 / older . Macmillan/Thomson/Gale) warns "Jung bristled at his characterization, especially by theologians, as a metaphysician."
- That's why I think the source should be regarded skeptically, and one commentator might not be enough. This is no big deal, your addition is cautious as it is. Yet a recent similar discussion at Talk:Hegel (I was not a party) reminded me that delicate thinkers are better not too readily categorized. The Kay article is a start but you seem to appreciate some useful argument in Fuller, what is it? trespassers william (talk) 23:33, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
- Fuller catalogs the assumptions Jung makes about "God" - that God is the "opposite" of the ego; that Freud's God was sex; that the absence of God results in a void that must be filled (more than one scholar mention Jung's interest and assumptions about Nietzsche's God void being the cause of his illness as a way to show Jung's 'metaphysical' assumptions). Fuller writes: "Jung feels it is better to give conscious recognition to the tremendous influence of the collective unconscious relative to the ego and call it "God," the name it has always had (1956, p 81)." Jung's assumption: that God is the name it 'has always had' is based on a pantheistic assumption that the collective unconscious IS a reality and it's name is God. That's the main argument, that Jung assumes God exists and IS the collective unconscious (whether or not there is 'proof'). He writes: " remarks that God and the boundless and unified cosmos that constitutes "God's world" were realities of his experience."
- Spinoza could have written that last line. I agree with you about skepticism and caution, but these are very clear expressions of pantheism despite Jung's denial of "metaphysics". Labels like "pantheism" are almost never embraced by the people they are applied to. As an aside, Jung's ideas can also be called panpsychism which is not yet mentioned in the Wiki article but sources for that are plentiful. Panpsychism + the God label = Spinoza style pantheism. NaturaNaturans (talk) 05:04, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
- That's why I think the source should be regarded skeptically, and one commentator might not be enough. This is no big deal, your addition is cautious as it is. Yet a recent similar discussion at Talk:Hegel (I was not a party) reminded me that delicate thinkers are better not too readily categorized. The Kay article is a start but you seem to appreciate some useful argument in Fuller, what is it? trespassers william (talk) 23:33, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
- Danny here's some extra stuff I came across, a great example of Jung's metaphysical assumptions and obvious panpsychism from 1946 "On the Nature of the Psyche": Jung: "Since psyche and matter are contained in one and the same world, and moreover are in continuous contact with one another and ultimately rest on irrepresentable, transcendental factors, it is not only possible but fairly probable even that psyche and matter are two different aspects of one and the same thing." That is nearly the exact metaphysical claim of Nietzsche and Spinoza. He later calls it the collective unconscious a.k.a. "God". That's very clearly pantheism, similar to Einstein and Spinoza's thinking. I suppose if I came up with it in this specific quote and his God statements someone could accuse me of WP:synthesis, but Fuller puts it together well in a similar and correct way. NaturaNaturans (talk) 05:23, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:International Churches of Christ
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Please comment on Talk:Acharya S
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Please comment on Talk:Curt Leviant
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Please comment on Talk:Book of Daniel
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Please comment on Talk:God
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Please comment on Talk:Ten Lost Tribes
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Please comment on Talk:Guy Fawkes Night
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Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.
Visit Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#On_Pantheism. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:44, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
December 2013
Stop edit warring at Pantheism, if you have some suggestion, you can discuss it in the talk page, instead of enforcing the change on which no one has agreed yet, nor you have made any valid argument. Or else if you continued edit warring, you can be blocked from editing without further notice. Bladesmulti (talk) 05:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
- Ironic since you are doing the edit warring NaturaNaturans (talk) 05:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Pantheism
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2nd time
Stop edit warring at List of Pantheists, if you have some suggestion, you can discuss it in the talk page, instead of enforcing the change on which no one has agreed yet, nor you have made any valid argument. Or else if you continued edit warring, you can be blocked from editing without further notice. Bladesmulti (talk) 08:12, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Re: List of Pantheists / Pantheism Articles
Hello, please see the steps at dispute resolution. Misplaced Pages also has an original research noticeboard that can be used for reports like this. Graham87 08:37, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, you responded at the right place. However despite being an admin, I don't specialize in this sort of thing at all. Try the admins' noticeboard for edit warring. Technically, you both are probably edit-warring by now, but I'm not going to block either of you for it (seeing as I've never made a block remotely like it in my over six years as a Misplaced Pages admin).
- However, it is true that the requirement for citations is reduced in the lead section, because it should summarise the rest of the article. Whether and how this applies to your specific case, I don't know; I've only gotten into this mess because List of French people is on my watchlist, and I don't plan to be further involved in this dispute. Graham87 14:43, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- OK, thank you anyway. NaturaNaturans (talk) 15:05, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
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Regarding Giordano Bruno....
I would not be one to throw a "citation needed" tag there, as I have no doubt that you are correct, but it might yet be good (and not too difficult) to track down a citation or two for the proposition of Bruno being deemed a Pantheist. I suppose, as well, that some will call him a Panentheist. Blessings!! DeistCosmos (talk) 05:12, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- In my research, he is actually the second most often mentioned "pantheist" in academic work after Spinoza. I will throw in a few citations, thanks for the suggestion. NaturaNaturans (talk) 16:51, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
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Molyneux
At Talk:Stefan Molyneux#Survey, you wrote "the qualifier "political philosopher" might be more reasonable". Have you seen the list here User:Netoholic/Molyneux? His output is in more than just the political area. He's written a book on ethics called UPB and a book on atheism (metaphysical philosophy) called Against the Gods, both of which have been cited and commented on by other philosophers. This I think is why the single word "philosopher" is best in the first sentence to cover the whole range, as the details are worked out in the main body. -- Netoholic @ 05:05, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
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