| Revision as of 22:54, 2 January 2013 editLocation (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users23,986 edits →NASA: merging content with CIA Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory and UFO conspiracy theory← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 05:24, 9 December 2024 edit undoEEng (talk | contribs)Edit filter helpers, Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Template editors97,954 edits →Kelly Johnson Lockheed Martin skunkworks: you must be joking. This is pure vandalismTag: Manual revert |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
{{Talk header|search=yes}} |
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
⚫ |
{{Controversial}} |
|
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|collapsed=yes|1= |
|
|
⚫ |
{{Old XfD multi|page=Kennedy assassination theories|date=December 16, 2005|keep}} |
| ⚫ |
{{WikiProject Politics|class=B|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Rational Skepticism|class=start|importance=high}} |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=C|1= |
|
{{WikiProject Alternative Views|class=Start|importance=Mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Politics|importance=low|American=yes |American-importance=Mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Death|class=c|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Skepticism|importance=high}} |
|
{{WikiProject Dallas-Fort Worth|class=B|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Alternative Views|importance=Mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject History|class=c|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Death|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject United States|class=Start|importance=Low |
|
{{WikiProject Dallas-Fort Worth|importance=low}} |
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject History|importance=mid}} |
|
|TX=yes |TX-importance=low |USGov=yes|USGov-importance=High }} |
|
|
|
{{WikiProject United States|importance=Low |TX=yes |TX-importance=low |USGov=yes|USGov-importance=High|USPresidents=yes|USPresidents-importance=Mid|UShistory=yes|UShistory-importance=low}} |
|
}} |
|
}} |
| ⚫ |
{{Old AfD multi|page=Kennedy assassination theories|date=December 16, 2005|keep}} |
|
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|archiveheader = {{aan}} |
|
|archiveheader = {{automatic archive navigator}} |
|
|maxarchivesize = 200K |
|
|maxarchivesize = 200K |
|
|counter = 3 |
|
|counter = 6 |
|
|minthreadsleft = 4 |
|
|minthreadsleft = 4 |
|
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 |
|
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 |
|
|algo = old(60d) |
|
|algo = old(60d) |
|
|archive = Talk:John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories/Archive %(counter)d |
|
|archive = Talk:John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories/Archive %(counter)d |
|
⚫ |
}}{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |
|
|
|target=/Archive index |
|
|
|mask=/Archive <#> |
|
|
|leading_zeros=0 |
|
|
|indexhere=yes |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
==Third bullet theory== |
|
{{Auto archiving notice|bot=MiszaBot I |age=2 |units=months }} |
|
|
|
] postulates that the most significant evidence of more than one shooter is the discrepancy in behaviors of the second and third bullets. While the second penetrated two bodies and remained intact, the third disintegrated on impact. The bullets used by Oswald were designed for max penetration, so the third bullet's result is an anomaly. None of the other major theories or theorists appear to have highlighted this aspect. Also, Oswald did not shoot at Kennedy right after the turn onto Elm Street, when he was closest to the depository building, but waited until they were further away and missed with his first shot trying to fire through the trees in front of the building, then had to rush the second and third shots which made a direct hit on Kennedy's skull less likely. Sources: . ] (]) 17:51, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
| ⚫ |
{{Controversial}} |
|
| ⚫ |
{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |
|
|
|target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive <#> |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes |
|
|
}} |
|
|
|
|
|
== Iron sights == |
|
|
|
|
|
Just wanted to clarify the issue of whether Oswald used iron sights or not. "both the WC and the HSCA agreed that Oswald used a scope on the rifle -- the rifle was found w/ a scope mounted on it" said Brandon when he reverted my clarification of this issue. Brandon isn't quite accurate here - the HSCA, as can be seen in the very link to this section, concluded that Oswald - or the shooter - could have refired as quickly as within 1.66 seconds if the iron sights were used. While the scope was on the rifle, the iron sights could still be used, and it is unknown whether the assassin (we know SOMEONE was firing shots from the TSBD) used the scope or the sights. The HSCA, IOW, did NOT conclude Oswald/the assassin used the scope. Which is why the HSCA did their tests using the iron sights. ] (]) 16:01, 15 November 2012 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:Here we go again. Brandon has re-inserted the false claim that the HSCA concluded Oswald had used the rifle scope, not the iron sights. And, true to form, he hasn't bothered to address the subject even though the very reference for this section says that Oswald could have used the iron sights! Here is the pertinent HSCA passage from the page referred to in the section about the iron sights: "Accordingly, the 1.66 seconds between the onset of of the first and the second impulse patterns on the tape are not too brief a period of time for both of these patterns to represent gunfire, and for Oswald to have fired both of the shots." Since the 1.66 seconds is the time established in using the iron sights, the HSCA concluded Oswald could have fired the shots using the iron sights. To the contrary, if they had somehow determined, as Brandon claims, that Oswald had instead used the scope, they would have NOT been able make the conclusion that Oswald could have fired the shots as he needed 2.3 seconds to do so with the scope. ] (]) 18:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::Here we go again. Canada Jack has made the false assertion that "...while the scope was on the rifle, the iron sights could still be used." Obviously, Canada Jack is not familiar with firearms. Scopes are mounted on rifles in front of the iron sights. The scope and its mount obstruct the shooter's view through the iron sights, rendering the iron sights useless. A scope mounted on a rifle, de facto, means that the shooter's only option for aiming is to use the scope. Are there any hunters, or people familiar with firearms, out there to confirm this? ] (]) 20:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::Boy, how many screw-ups can we count on one page with Brandon? "A scope mounted on a rifle, de facto, means that the shooter's only option for aiming is to use the scope." Uh, no, Brandon. If the scope was mounted on this particular rifle in the way you describe, the bolt could not be operated.(!) Which is why the scope was mounted slightly off-centre to the left so as to allow the bolt to be operated. Accordingly, the iron sights could be used even with the scope in place. For example, the FBI's Robert Frazier tested the rifle with the scope AND with the iron sights - without removing the scope. |
|
|
|
|
|
:::Secondly, wikipedia 101 for you, AGAIN. You made the specific claim that the HSCA concluded Oswald fired with the scope. That factoid is nowhere to be found on the attendant page (the Warren Commission's conclusion IS there, however), indeed the attendant page comes to precisely the OPPOSITE conclusion - that Oswald could have fired the rifle in the required time if he used the iron sights. Which I pointed out to you several times. And now we realize where the claim for the HSCA supposedly "concluding" that Oswald used the scope - it comes from YOUR assessment that since they agreed the scope was on the rifle when found, and therefore was on the rifle when fired, Oswald MUST have used the scope as YOU believed the presence of the scope blocked use of the iron sights. That is called Original Research, Brandon. And even if you were correct - you aren't - you'd STILL have to supply a citation for that claim of what the HSCA said. |
|
|
|
|
|
:::Your only out here, Brandon, is to quote some conspiracy author here who makes the inane claim that Oswald HAD to have used the rifle as the scope blocked the iron sights, even though that is not true. Rest assured, a note to clarify that erroneous point would have to be added. ] (]) 20:20, 15 November 2012 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::::Which conspiracy theorist are you referring to? I'm sure it's not President Lyndon Johnson who told several prominent newsmen that he thought that the JFK assassination was a conspiracy. ] (]) 22:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::::Johnson knew his rifles, from what I've read. So he wouldn't have made the rather amazing claim that this rifle with a scope couldn't also be aimed with its iron sights. Further, I said conspiracy "authors" not theorists. How many books did Johnson write on the subject of his predecessor's assassination? I think we know the answer to that one. Nice try in changing the subject though, Brandon. Next time you challenge me over facts, you might do a bit of research to see if I am on to something instead of putting your foot into your mouth. I suggested you check the source, clearly you didn't. Obviously, we have different conclusions on the assassination, but you of all people should know I am not going to change something on a point of fact without being pretty sure I am right on the question at issue. ] (]) 22:23, 15 November 2012 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:The second bullet passed through almost entirely soft tissue while the third bullet immediately struck bone. ] (]) 22:17, 6 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
:::::Johnson would likely have gone public with information about a conspiracy had he ever been able to confirm it. He never did. He thought there was a conspiracy but he had no compelling evidence. At any rate, he has nothing to do with scope vs iron sights. ] (]) 22:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC) |
|
|
|
:Yes, as mentioned by 24.230 above, the bullet that struck two did so by passing through Kennedy without touching bone, then plowing sideways through relatively soft bone at a significantly reduced velocity, as opposed to striking the much harder skull bone at maximum velocity nose-first. |
|
|
:As for Oswald not shooting when closest, this ignores the evidence of the sniper nest. The sniper had set up several boxes as a gun rest, poised to shoot when JFK was travelling away down Elm - and not pointing down Houston when the sniper might be more readily seen by witnesses as the target was approaching the sniper's nest, and the angle of adjustment was far steeper as it approached. Going down Elm towards the underpass the angle of adjustment was minimal as the limousine was travelling away almost in a straight line. Even though the limosine was closer when turning onto Elm, it was a trickier shot with the target moving from left to right as it turned. Even if one could argue that shooting down Houston was an easier shot, the bottom line is the sniper in fact set up the gun rest to shoot down Elm, so it's a moot point. As for "rush the second and third shots", the evidence suggests that the first shot completely missed, he set and fired again, which struck but not at the presumed target - Kennedy's head - , then he set and waited the longest and fired the third shot, a bullseye. Entirely consistent with Oswald's experience as a trained Marine sniper, making adjustments with what most experts agree was not a difficult shot. Took him three to hit the bullseye. A good, but not great, marksman. ] (]) 00:57, 7 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Not a word about JFK doctors saying there was a front entrance wound, and a massive rear head wound == |
|
::::::However, many Warren Commission apologists espouse the false narrative that those who believe in a JFK assassination conspiracy also believe in such things as Big Foot and faked moon landings. Whereas we see that prominent people, including Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover, as well as some congressmen and Kennedy aides, are on record saying that they believe there was a conspiracy in the case of JFK. ] (]) 23:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Currently there is not a word about JFK Parkland doctors saying there was a front entrance wound, and a massive rear head wound. |
|
:::::::Misplaced Pages is not here to Right the Great Wrong. Apologists have nothing to do with the scope vs iron sights question which is what this discussion thread is supposed to be about. ] (]) 23:27, 15 November 2012 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I haven't discussed this interview here before. And I don't see this interview mentioned in the talk archives. |
|
::::::::Nobody said anything about righting a Great Wrong. However, the Warren Commission apologists should stop with the childish insults -- it gets a little tiring. ] (]) 23:34, 15 November 2012 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There is an '''interview from 2015''' with '''Dr. ]''' where he says that he saw a massive head wound in the back of Kennedy's head. And that the other doctors saw it too. He said that he saw a front entrance wound. |
|
== NASA == |
|
|
|
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ435lMaCng |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I previously discussed the '''2023 documentary''' about 7 doctors who were there, and they all believed there was an entrance wound from the front, meaning that more than one shooter was required. This Google search pulls up the documentary and many reliable sources that reviewed it: |
|
Please feel free to update/add to the NASA section. It was based off of a single author's work. There is video and other media available online somewhere, but the purpose of adding the section was just to be inclusive.] (]) 00:44, 1 December 2012 (UTC) |
|
|
|
*Google search: '''''' (see documentary). |
|
:The "Other Published Theories" section of this article was designed with this sort of thing in mind. This theory does not merit an entire subsection of the article. ] (]) 02:03, 1 December 2012 (UTC) |
|
|
|
*Previous discussion: '''].''' |
|
::I agree with this. I am also inclined to believe that books within that section should also have some sort of secondary coverage, which this one does. ] (]) 21:15, 31 December 2012 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I mention it now because the documentary and the McClelland interview are saying the same thing. And so it further merits being in the article. --] (]) 22:41, 24 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
This theory - that the CIA killed Kennedy to keep him from learning (and sharing with the Soviets and the public) a secret UFO reverse-engineering program - appears to have been around while in different forms (i.e. ). |
|
|
It seems to be a combination of the ] and the CIA's involvement in the ]. (The CIA has something to say about the later: .) Lester's book is self-published, however, the coverage in secondary reliable sources seems to stem from an article by AOL's Lee Speigel: |
|
|
:April 18, 2011 - Lee Speigel of publishes a story discussing William Lester's book; the author also tracks down Robert Wood. |
|
|
::April 18, 2011 - (!!!!) publishes a story referencing the AOL story. |
|
|
::April 19, 2011 - publishes a story referencing the AOL story. |
|
|
:April 20, 2011 - Natalie Wolchover of publishes story discussing Lester's book. |
|
|
::April 21, 2011 - Wolchover's story is re-published by , , and and many other smaller sources. |
|
|
I guess I'm not sure if this should go under "Other published theories", under the section regarding CIA involvement, or keep as a separate section. *sigh* ] (]) 19:48, 2 January 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
:OK. In reliable sources, this theory was only very briefly covered in the news and is actually only a blip in the world of JFK conspiracy theories. Given consideration to ] and ], I have removed the content from this article and merged it with ] and ]. ] (]) 22:53, 2 January 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:Without some newly discovered, reliable, secondary source, I don't think it will be productive to rehash the same discussion. There was also the one at ]. ] (] / ]) 02:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
I have removed the content from this page and merged it |
|
|
|
::There were '''many reliable secondary sources in the previous discussion.''' There are '''more now''' about the '''massive rear head wound (not a massive top of the head wound),''' and a '''front entrance wound.''' |
|
|
::The above-linked video is a '''primary source.''' But it is an interview. According to the essay, '''].''' and its source guidelines, an interviewee's responses are '''primary, non-independent, and authoritative''' for the '''interviewee's personal experiences, preferences, viewpoints, etc..''' |
|
|
::There is a '''different 2015 interview with McClelland''' here in front of a crowd at the '''Allen Public Library''' in ''']:''' |
|
|
::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySO0pLcN5ww - discusses a '''massive rear head wound, not a massive top of the head wound.''' |
|
|
::Many of the reviews of the documentary show parts of the interviews with the 7 doctors. So they are '''secondary sources with primary sources.''' You can find some of them by scrolling down the results of this Youtube search: |
|
|
::https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=interviews+with+jfk+parkland+doctors |
|
|
::Reviews from reliable sources such as '''], ], ], ],''' etc.. Many of the previously discussed reviews from reliable news sources had video clips too. All of them comment on the documentary and the video clips. That makes them '''secondary sources,''' too. |
|
|
::Here is an '''2013 interview of McClelland''' by the '''chief editor''' (Rod J. Rohrich, MD) of the ''']''' journal: |
|
|
::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q1lYifmUXA |
|
|
::He describes a '''massive rear head wound (not a massive top of the head wound),''' at 6 minutes into the video. There is even a diagram. The video is also hosted on their website: |
|
|
::https://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/pages/video.aspx?autoPlay=false&v=420 |
|
|
::The videos are part of a '''special topic:''' |
|
|
::{{cite journal |last1=Rohrich |first1=Rod J. |last2=Weinstein |first2=Aaron |last3=Stokes |first3=Mike |title='''The Assassination of JFK: A Plastic Surgery Perspective 50 Years Later''' |journal=] |date=November 2013 |volume=132 |issue=5 |pages=1373–1376 |doi=10.1097/PRS.0b013e3182a64669 |url=https://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/fulltext/2013/11000/the_assassination_of_jfk__a_plastic_surgery.58.aspx}} |
|
|
::''']''' did a '''April 3, 1992''' report in a segment titled "I Know What I Saw." '''Dr. Charles A. Crenshaw,''' one of the ER doctors, saw a '''massive rear head wound, (not a massive top of the head wound),''' and a '''front entrance wound.''' See: |
|
|
::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJuGGouHg5Y - and archive link: |
|
|
::https://web.archive.org/web/20231125220335/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJuGGouHg5Y |
|
|
::Crenshaw also has a #1 New York Times bestseller (makes it notable) saying the same thing: |
|
|
::https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/dfqQAAAAQBAJ?hl=en - "JFK Has Been Shot". Can search inside. Copyright 1992. |
|
|
::I think we need a '''request for comment.''' I have provided a plethora of primary and secondary sources for the fact that the JFK Parkland doctors saw a massive rear head wound (not a massive top of the head wound), and a front entrance wound too. |
|
|
::--] (]) 17:36, 25 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Milteer and Finck material == |
|
== Number of Shots == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
This section, says Nellie Connally thought her husband was hit by a separate shot, true, but John Connally's own similar testimony (per JThompson's 6 Secs in Dallas) is even more convincing. Believe Connally went to his grave believing Warren Commission was wrong about the Magic Bullet, but paradoxically, Connally agreed with the Commission's overall findings. In any case, failure to cite John Connally's testimony seems like a bit of bias at this point in the Wiki. ] (]) 18:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
I see problems with regarding Joseph Milteer and Pierre Finck. The part about Milteer's statements (secretly recorded by a Miami police informant) is taken straight from a ] of a kind that is generally not acceptable here as a ]. Quoting from WP:SPS: ''"Take care when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so."'' Similarly for the Finck testimony at the Clay Shaw trial; if you must quote directly from the trial transcript, find a more reliable source. And in both cases, extensive verbatim quoting from primary source material is discouraged — '''''not''''' absolutely prohibited, to be sure, but it should be limited to ''"straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge"''. In this situation, I believe these extensive primary-source quotes are inappropriate because the reader is being implicitly called upon to conclude from these quotes that Milteer's death was "suspicious" and that Finck's testimony supports allegations of a government conspiracy. If these allegations are credible, find reliable secondary sources which discuss them. — ]] <small>''(no relation to Jimbo)''</small> 23:02, 1 January 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== The JFK Assassination Chokeholds: That Inescapably Prove There Was a Conspiracy == |
|
Note, too, that ''"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material"'' (see ]). This also applies to the reliability of a source: If a source that appears to be unreliable is in fact reliable, the editor who wants to use the disputed source needs to present a satisfactory case for its usability (e.g., if you think '''jfklancerforum.com''' is a well-respected, reliable source and not a self-published blog, you need to establish this to the satisfaction of reasonable people). — ]] <small>''(no relation to Jimbo)''</small> 23:15, 1 January 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This book might warrant a mention, along with its authors: James DiEugenio, Matt Crumpton, Paul Bleau, Andrew Iler, and Mark Adamczyk. ] (]) 21:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
:I agree with the removal of the quotes and that the forum is not a reliable source by Misplaced Pages standards. The Milteer quote can be obtained from reliable sources, including the HSCA Report (and even ]'s book in a rebuttal to Marrs's POV on this); however, I agree it doesn't give the full picture of what the HSCA concluded. Given the hundreds of people who were witnesses or claimed to have knowledge of something, we need to be careful not to give undue weight to certain items... particularly when they are the items that have not received those most coverage in secondary reliable sources. |
|
|
:The following should also be removed, not because it is unreliable but rather because it is cherry-picked primary source information which without context is tantamount to OR: |
|
|
::''The House Select Committee on Assassinations reported in 1979 that while the information on the alleged threat to the president "was furnished the agents making the advance arrangements before the visit of the President" to Miami, "the Milteer threat was ignored by Secret Service personnel in planning the trip to Dallas." Robert Bouck, Special Agent-in-Charge of the Secret Service's Protective Research Section "...testified to the committee that threat information was transmitted from one region of the country to another if there was specific evidence it was relevant to the receiving region."<ref>, p. 233.</ref>'' |
|
|
:In my opinion, it is sufficient for that particular section simply to say that "X believes Y, who knew Z, died suspiciously" with maybe a ''little'' more detail given to one or two of the most prominent "suspicious deaths". ] (]) 07:27, 2 January 2013 (UTC) |
|
Currently there is not a word about JFK Parkland doctors saying there was a front entrance wound, and a massive rear head wound.
I haven't discussed this interview here before. And I don't see this interview mentioned in the talk archives.
I mention it now because the documentary and the McClelland interview are saying the same thing. And so it further merits being in the article. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:41, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
This section, says Nellie Connally thought her husband was hit by a separate shot, true, but John Connally's own similar testimony (per JThompson's 6 Secs in Dallas) is even more convincing. Believe Connally went to his grave believing Warren Commission was wrong about the Magic Bullet, but paradoxically, Connally agreed with the Commission's overall findings. In any case, failure to cite John Connally's testimony seems like a bit of bias at this point in the Wiki. TBILLT (talk) 18:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
.svg)
