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== Economy of Europe == == Europe page ==
Wiki, if you're mentioning the Caucasian countries Georgia and Azerbaijan, why not mentioned the 3 rd republic "Armenia". ] (]) 02:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I think this would be in the economy section:
Europe has a long history as the world's richest and most productive part of the world. At the
time of Christ's birth is estimated western European output per capita was approximately 30%
higher than the world average. Year 1500 had this advantage increased to 40%.<ref
name="Madisson">Madisson, Angus (2009).
[http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical_Statistics/horizontal-file_09-2008.xls Statistics on
World Population, GDP and Per Capita GDP, 1-2006 AD].</ref> After the development of science and
the Industrial Revolution in Europe grew its lead quickly, in 1700 produced an average European
almost 70% more than world's average population, and in 1850 was taken over the entire 150%.
Around the year 1900 was Western Europe's leading role as the world's most productive area has
been taken over by the former European colony of the United States, but Europe has continued to
belong to the world's richest, most productive and knowledge-producing regions.<ref
name="Madisson">Madisson, Angus (2009).
[http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical_Statistics/horizontal-file_09-2008.xls Statistics on
World Population, GDP and Per Capita GDP, 1-2006 AD].</ref>
<small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 12 January 2011</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

== Chinese Name Change ==

I deleted the following sentence from this page:

: which is an abbreviation of the transliterated name ''{{Unicode|Ōuluóbā zhōu}}'' (歐羅巴洲)

I did this because, I have never heard this term though I am a speaker of Chinese. I asked some native Chinese speakers, and they also had never heard this term. I have found any research indicating that the term 欧洲 is an abbreviation of 欧罗巴州, as the deleted sentence suggests, though 欧罗巴 is direct transliteration of the word Europe into Chinese. The word was used on the Chinese Language Misplaced Pages page refers to 欧罗巴 only as a transliteration for the Greek word "Europa."
<small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 27 January 2012</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

== Edit request on 17 October 2012 ==

{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}}
<!-- Begin request -->
1) Note mark in table: at Nagorno-Karabakh should be
2) Note mark in table: at Abkhazia and South Ossetia should be , perhaps also
3) in remark C: "... However only the population figure includes the entire state" - it seems, that the area figure also (it's bigger than total for Europe, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/Russia); expression "However only" strange in the place where precise figures only for European part should be the desired status.
4) remark J for Kazakhstan: the same situations as in 3)
5) remark N for Turkey: the same situations as in 3)
6) remark M for Georgia: clear statement that the area and population figures are for the entire territory (not only European part) would be useful
7) "orphaned" remarks A and S.
<!-- End request -->
] (]) 08:46, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
:{{done}}, I think, and ow, my brain... what a horrible system, this cnote. -— ] ] 18:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

== Deep ancestry of the Europeans ==

This genetic map, can be useful to look into the deep ancestry of the Europeans. Maybe it could be of use:

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

Pipo. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


:Armenia is mentioned at a couple of points in the article. ] (]) 04:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
== Etymology as part of definition? ==


:Armenia is only "culturally" European (i.e. they think they are European). The country is located entirely south of the Greater Caucasus Mountains, it is geographically a part of Asia. ] (]) 05:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
The recent change in format, which I reverted, was unhelpful. The definition of Europe is a historical matter according to the sources and has very little to do with the etymology. The mixing up of the principal clickable map detailing transcontinental countries rendered the start of the article unreadable. The separation into "definition" and "etymology" seems fine and there seems to be no reason to change it. ] (]) 07:50, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
::Please read the FAQ above. While Armenia is indeed ''geographically'' in West Asia, there are numerous political and geopolitical definitions which place Armenia (and also Cyprus) within a "wider Europe". There are also a few geographical definitions which place the ] region either entirely or partially within Europe. It depends on which definition is used, but generally speaking, Misplaced Pages uses the most expansive definitions in inclusion criteria's for Asia and Europe. That is why Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are mentioned in both Asia and Europe related articles and lists, with notes accompanying them to clarify their physical geography, versus their geopolitical and cultural adherence to either/both continents. This impartial stance has been the norm here for about a decade. Regards, ] (]) 18:21, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Basically, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are a bunch of Asian countries wanna be seen as European countries. If we use the ]'s definition of Europe, even the ] is a part of Asia. Hence, according to the British sources, the area of Europe is only approx. 10 million square kilometres.
:::End of this debate. ] (]) 14:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)


== ] and ] == == Area of Europe ==


What is the exact area of Europe? According to this article, it is 10,186,000 sq. km, but according to the ] in my local library, it is 9,908,599 sq. km (they counted to the single digits!). Why are there a big difference between these sources? ] (]) 05:50, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Please do not with add unsourced content to the "History" section. An editor has expanded the content related to the ] without new sources and with far more detail than is appropriate for what is just a summary of the history of Europe. The final paragraph added about Siberia and Alaska concerned the history of Asia and not that of Europe. The history section is quite carefully sourced. To add new material please ensure that it directly concerns the history of Europe, is properly sourced and is concise and in summary form. ] (]) 07:21, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
:Hello Mathsci, I understand why you removed my content I added in ], but when you removed the edits I made, you also removed some other changes I made to the article besides that of the Tatars. I also found the article to be biased. I added the part of ] turning ] into an Islamic state after his conversion, because I saw there were other random facts scattered across the article, such as the Crimean Tatars collecting Slavic slaves. I found these facts to be biased towards one side of the (hi)story of Europe, and not the other side. It also seems to describe the ] as if equating them with ] despite the fact that this is an error. The description of Russia expanding into Siberia and Alaska is part of European history and would have a major impact on the development of events in Europe. It is very brief. I will edit it.


:Area will differ based on different definitions of Europe. ] (]) 08:08, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
:If you must edit the article, then do so, but with the considerations in mind based on what I have written above. Perhaps the part of the Golden Horde can be condensed, but with the main points being that the Horde converted to Islam (probably under the influence of the Muslims already in the land of the Horde, such as the Volga Bulgars), and that their territory was mostly Turkic, and not an "occupied Russia" as is erroneously believed since Russia and the Eastern Slavs had not yet occupied these lands before the Mongol conquest except in very small areas. I will get sources on this later (this week hopefully as I know what the sources are). I ask you though, to not remove the whole of the material, but to place an "unsourced" tag if needed. I believe this is important to give a neutral view of European history. --] (]) 07:32, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
:Because the Collins World Atlas is published by the British. They have included the ] as a part of Asia. ] (]) 14:09, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
::Please find a source or sources instead of writing the content "from your own head" in a discursive and parenthetic way. I assume that you also edited ] with the ip 67.49.73.135, since identical wording without sources was used in both cases. I helped modify the history section some time ago and every attempt to maintain ] was made. Your own edits to both articles seem to skew the content: in both articles you complain about "bias". You have objected to references to countries under Christian rule and have attempted to add undue content about Muslim rule. Please could you '''''stick to ]''''', preferably books on the history of Europe, and not edit articles to "right great wrongs" as that is POV-pushing? ] (]) 07:57, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
:::I have added sources and condensed this history to a very small portion containing the most essential details. Also relating to the ], I am not out for an agenda, merely to correct popular fallacies, for instance, is it not biased to say that the Spaniards were "pushing Muslims out of Iberia"? This assumes that all the Muslims are invaders and that none of these Muslims are Spaniards, despite the fact that most of the Muslims in Iberia by the year 1100 were local converts. I am not pushing a pro-Muslim agenda as you might suspect, I am trying to give equity to the history of all. I especially found the statement "With the usual pride of advanced thinkers, the Humanists..." to be very biased (it sounds unencyclopedic). Again, you undid my edit without regards to details that I did not come up from my own head as you sat, such as changing "Kipchaks" to "Kipchak-Cuman Confederation", or the conquest of the ] before expansion into the rest of Siberia. Spain did experience a great cultural golden age during al-Andalus, so it seems biased to me to say that Spain had a golden age, this assumes al-Andalus is illegitimate, that's why I added "Christian Spain" so as to remove this bias. Writing that "Christian Europe" instead of "Europeans" makes it clear that not all Europeans were one and the same culture or religion, as was the case at the time of the fall of Constantinople, before it, and after it. I will certainly add sources to this material. And yes, this is righting "great wrongs". ;) --] (]) 08:20, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
::::Please stop adding unsourced content about the expansion of Russia into Asia and beyond. It might be your personal point of view but is not directly related to the history of Europe. Again this is skewing content in a non-neutral and inappropriate way. This content is relevant to the ], but not here. ] (]) 08:55, 31 December 2012 (UTC)


== Armenia again ==
==Peninsulas in Europe==
I see that I should have noted that the consensus ''is'' firmly established to include Armenia in the article for reasons given in a note. But therein lies the problem. The note reads "Armenia can be considered part of Eastern Europe or West Asia; it has strong historical and sociopolitical connections with Europe. The population and area figures include the entire state, respectively." This is just as much a justification for including Australia and Canada in the article, not making it clear at all why they're different. Since they aren't, this makes the justification look specious and ''ad hoc'' as though it's really being given only for the purpose of placating some group of people. This isn't a great impression for a Misplaced Pages article to give. At the moment, I'm not arguing one way or the about Armenia's inclusion but that the way it's been included looks almost like an acknowledgement that it doesn't really belong. ] (]) 18:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Regarding revert, the reason I added the category is because Europe is a Peninsula, and clearly Europe is in Europe. ] (]) 17:17, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
:Cat Peninsulas in Europe? Clearly those peninsulas are in Europe; but Europe, a peninsula or continent or whatever part of Eurasia is, is ''not'' in a peninsula... --] (]) 18:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
::Europe is quite easily defined as a peninsula, but is an entity inside itself? I wouldn't use that terminology. An odd semantic question indeed. ] (]) 19:36, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
:Use -if exists- the category "Peninsulas in Eurasia" and we will not have to spend this much energy to understand you. --] (]) 20:00, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


:As a standalone it might give that impression, but it comes after the much earlier Definition section which should provide a reader a reasonably clear understanding of the issue of Europe's 'borders'. Would an internal link, eg. "]", help? ] (]) 06:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
== Fall of "Byzantines" in 1453 after being "fatally weakened" ==


:Well, most countries outside Europe classify the countries of the ] region as Asian countries instead of European countries. The only one which classify these countries as European countries are themselves.
Last sentence under the heading "Early Middle Ages": <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:10, 20 January 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:The same can be said of Cypus and Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan. ] (]) 14:16, 9 December 2024 (UTC)


== Is the Turkish peninsula west of Istanbul considered Europe? ==
"Fatally weakened by the sack of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade, the Byzantines fell in 1453 when they were conquered by the Ottoman Empire." I find there two problems with this sentence:


Europe orthographic Caucasus Urals boundary (with borders):
1. While Constantinople fell in 1453, other Byzantine cities only fell later, i.e. Trebizond in 1461. It certainly does make sense to associate the fall of the "Byzantine Empire" with the fall of its capital, itself one of the last strongholds to fall to the Ottomans. Please note, that even this is not objective fact, only interpretation, albeit a sensible and widely agreed upon one. But if you are using the fuzzy term "Byzantines", which I interpret along the lines of "Territory, Cities or Population with Byzantine allegiance", then this is not true anymore. Some "Byzantines" still survived a bit longer, even if their empire had already fallen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/Europe#/media/File:Europe_orthographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary_(with_borders).svg


Just asking, thanks. ] (]) 19:10, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
2. It is a very bold assertion to make a monocausal connection between the sack of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade, i.e. in 1204, and the final collapse of the empire more than two centuries later! While it was certainly not a very good day for the empire when their capital was captured and their territories divided, only to be restored some 50 years later at a smaller scale, nobody in this world is able to make this bold assertion and support it with scientific evidence. Weakened? Yes, absolutely. Fatally weakened? In other words: irreversibly and exclusively by this event weakened? Who can say!?
:Yes it is considered Europe (as is also clear from the opening lines of the ] article.) ] (]) 20:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:Yes, ] is a part of Europe, but it is a geographical region, not a ]. ] (]) 07:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)


== EUROPE IS NOT A CONTINENT! ==
Therefore my suggestion to change the sentence above into:
"Weakened by the sack of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade, the Byzantine Empire fell with the conquest of Constantinople by the Ottoman Empire in 1453."


there is no geological evidence to support the statement of Europe being a continent. ] (]) 13:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Thank you for your time!
] (]) 17:05, 20 January 2013 (UTC) :You will get further if you lower your voice. I suggest delete and start again. ] (]) 13:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
::Agree shouting is not helping. And in any case you should make an argument that geology is decisive. For that you may want to look at the ] article which explains that it is not that continent are not solely defined by geology but also by convention (ie agreement). And in any case what geography would you use? Continued landmass, which would render Eurasia-Africa a single continent (and Great Britain possibly not part of it) as would it combine the Americas into one continent, or would you refer to tectonic plate, which would make India arguably a continent distinct from Eurasia. ] (]) 21:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:08, 5 January 2025

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Europe page

Wiki, if you're mentioning the Caucasian countries Georgia and Azerbaijan, why not mentioned the 3 rd republic "Armenia". Sarocard (talk) 02:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Armenia is mentioned at a couple of points in the article. CMD (talk) 04:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Armenia is only "culturally" European (i.e. they think they are European). The country is located entirely south of the Greater Caucasus Mountains, it is geographically a part of Asia. 120.16.170.140 (talk) 05:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Please read the FAQ above. While Armenia is indeed geographically in West Asia, there are numerous political and geopolitical definitions which place Armenia (and also Cyprus) within a "wider Europe". There are also a few geographical definitions which place the South Caucasus region either entirely or partially within Europe. It depends on which definition is used, but generally speaking, Misplaced Pages uses the most expansive definitions in inclusion criteria's for Asia and Europe. That is why Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are mentioned in both Asia and Europe related articles and lists, with notes accompanying them to clarify their physical geography, versus their geopolitical and cultural adherence to either/both continents. This impartial stance has been the norm here for about a decade. Regards, Archives908 (talk) 18:21, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Basically, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan are a bunch of Asian countries wanna be seen as European countries. If we use the Encyclopædia Britannica's definition of Europe, even the North Caucasus is a part of Asia. Hence, according to the British sources, the area of Europe is only approx. 10 million square kilometres.
End of this debate. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:F0F5:3D10:42B7:F29D (talk) 14:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Area of Europe

What is the exact area of Europe? According to this article, it is 10,186,000 sq. km, but according to the Collins World Atlas in my local library, it is 9,908,599 sq. km (they counted to the single digits!). Why are there a big difference between these sources? 120.16.170.140 (talk) 05:50, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Area will differ based on different definitions of Europe. CMD (talk) 08:08, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Because the Collins World Atlas is published by the British. They have included the North Caucasus as a part of Asia. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:F0F5:3D10:42B7:F29D (talk) 14:09, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Armenia again

I see that I should have noted that the consensus is firmly established to include Armenia in the article for reasons given in a note. But therein lies the problem. The note reads "Armenia can be considered part of Eastern Europe or West Asia; it has strong historical and sociopolitical connections with Europe. The population and area figures include the entire state, respectively." This is just as much a justification for including Australia and Canada in the article, not making it clear at all why they're different. Since they aren't, this makes the justification look specious and ad hoc as though it's really being given only for the purpose of placating some group of people. This isn't a great impression for a Misplaced Pages article to give. At the moment, I'm not arguing one way or the about Armenia's inclusion but that the way it's been included looks almost like an acknowledgement that it doesn't really belong. Largoplazo (talk) 18:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

As a standalone it might give that impression, but it comes after the much earlier Definition section which should provide a reader a reasonably clear understanding of the issue of Europe's 'borders'. Would an internal link, eg. "can be considered", help? CMD (talk) 06:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Well, most countries outside Europe classify the countries of the South Caucasus region as Asian countries instead of European countries. The only one which classify these countries as European countries are themselves.
The same can be said of Cypus and Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Kazakhstan. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:F0F5:3D10:42B7:F29D (talk) 14:16, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Is the Turkish peninsula west of Istanbul considered Europe?

Europe orthographic Caucasus Urals boundary (with borders): https://en.wikipedia.org/Europe#/media/File:Europe_orthographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary_(with_borders).svg

Just asking, thanks. Teastain (talk) 19:10, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes it is considered Europe (as is also clear from the opening lines of the Turkey article.) Arnoutf (talk) 20:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Yes, East Thrace is a part of Europe, but it is a geographical region, not a peninsula. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 07:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

EUROPE IS NOT A CONTINENT!

there is no geological evidence to support the statement of Europe being a continent. 197.229.7.18 (talk) 13:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

You will get further if you lower your voice. I suggest delete and start again. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 13:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Agree shouting is not helping. And in any case you should make an argument that geology is decisive. For that you may want to look at the continent article which explains that it is not that continent are not solely defined by geology but also by convention (ie agreement). And in any case what geography would you use? Continued landmass, which would render Eurasia-Africa a single continent (and Great Britain possibly not part of it) as would it combine the Americas into one continent, or would you refer to tectonic plate, which would make India arguably a continent distinct from Eurasia. Arnoutf (talk) 21:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
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