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Untrue rating statistic

"Ratings steadily increased during the time of the First Gulf War," WMMS ratings were falling throughout 1990 and 91. Plus, even if it was true wouldn't you just write that they increased in 1991 instead of linking to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.119.156.206 (talk • contribs) 06:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure who chose to use "First Gulf War". Everything I've read indicates the ratings began to fall consistently only after Stern began airing on WNCX in 1992. That said, if you have any reliable sources which verify that the ratings steadily fell during the time of the First Gulf War, then by all means add them. Levdr1lp / talk 15:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Flagship vs. FM home

The Cleveland Indians' page lists WMMS as 1 of its 2 flagship stations, something regularly done with sports networks. Calling it a "home" is merely a marketing term and does not diminish its status as a flagship. WTAM & WMMS are equals. Just as WMMS can be considered the F.M. "home", WTAM could also be considered the A.M. "home". Does that also diminish its status as a flagship? It does not. Again, if it is called a "home", it is merely marketing terminology. As for the Indians' page being, & I'm paraphrasing with this-"one contradictory source", it is a source with a high degree of authority as it comes DIRECTLY from the team. THEY consider it a flagship, so it is. Vij. is right to have changed it.Stereorock (talk) 00:27, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

@Stereorock: To say "FM home" is merely a "marketing term" is not only inaccurate, but also WP:OR. Local media like the PD/Cleveland.com and Crain's Cleveland have nearly universally referred to WTAM as the Indians' flagship (singular). Only in a handful of cases is WMMS referred to as a "flagship", and, aside from the newly-found affiliate link, never from the Indians organization directly. For both the 2013 and 2014 seasons, all official team press releases identify WTAM as the sole flagship, while merely noting that WMMS simulcasts most games over FM. The team has *never* called WMMS a "flagship" in any press release, interview, etc., and neither WTAM nor WMMS uses the term "flagship" for 'MMS in on-air promos. WMMS does not air all Indians Radio Network coverage, such as the weekly year-round show Tribe Talk, nor does it air as many games as WTAM. Misplaced Pages reflects what reliable coverage says, and nearly all reliable sources use the term "FM home". Is it typical? No, but there's no rule that says an FM station in a team's home market is necessarily, or even by definition, a "flagship". Levdr1lp / talk 01:14, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Do I think we're nitpicking over semantics...yes. Do I think it's worth a knockdown/drag out argument...no. I'm tapping out. Vjmlhds (talk) 04:40, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: Please don't "tap out". I'm not necessarily opposed to calling WMMS the Indians' FM "flagship". I just think this issue is worth discussing first. The Indians organization has never referred to WMMS as a "flagship" in any official press releases (this goes back over a year to when the FM simulcasts were first announced in January 2013), and WMMS itself has gone out of its way to promote itself the FM "home". Practically, there is not much difference between a true FM flagship and this FM "home" thing, but by using the latter term for WMMS, WTAM is able to continue calling itself the (one and only) flagship for the Indians. Maybe Clear Channel Cleveland is trying to boost their struggling AM station a bit. Think about it. Why isn't WMMS promoting itself on-air, online, and elsewhere as the FM flagship? Why bother w/ some weird neither-this-nor-that term like "FM home"? It doesn't make sense from the perspective of WMMS alone, so that's why I think there's a subtle, but deliberate, effort on the part of the Cleveland CC cluster to limit the "flagship" title to WTAM. Don't get me wrong, I take your points about the affiliate link at the Indians website and the Cleveland.com story, both of which indicate WMMS is indeed a "flagship". I'm simply curious at what point we ignore all the other coverage out there. You have to admit, there are dozens of sources which call WTAM the "flagship" which also seem to go out of their way to avoid applying the same label to WMMS. Levdr1lp / talk 05:28, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: By tapping out, I meant I wasn't gonna fight over the issue...but I'll discuss all night. I think there's some stock in what Stereorock said in that it's all marketing/PR fluff. The Indians wanted to be on FM, and 92.3 The Fan was gunning for the broadcast rights, so Clear Channel cut the deal where the games would be on WMMS along with WTAM. We're getting too caught up with the terminology and not concentrating on the real point...WMMS is the main carrier of Indians baseball alongside WTAM, and whether they use the word "Flagship", "FM Home", or any variant thereof, it all means the same thing when it gets right down to it. Vjmlhds (talk) 05:43, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: I guess I wasn't clear. Content in this article must be based on coverage from reliable sources, so I apologize if I caused any confusion by throwing out my own personal speculation (i.e., WP:OR). The real issue here is what to call WMMS regarding its role w/ the Indians. Again, this must be based on all reliable coverage, not merely the handful of convenient "flagship" sources (the newly-found affiliate link, etc.). All coverage also includes dozens of other sources which do *not* identify WMMS as a "flagship". There are conflicting sources. The "flagship" sources may seem to make more sense from a practical standpoint, but I don't think you can simply disregard all the other previously existing coverage and cherry pick the ones you like -- WP:WEIGHT. Unfortunately, it may not be as simple as "A or B". Levdr1lp / talk 05:57, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Vjmlhds: I just read the Crain's article you referenced on my talk page, and it's worded ambiguously: The Indians' flagship radio affiliates, WTAM and WMMS-FM... I think it's pretty clear what that article's author meant, but by using the word "affiliate" in the very same phrase as "flagship", I don't think that source trumps the original Indians press release from January 2013: "... a new agreement for WTAM 1100 AM to remain the 'Flagship Home of the Cleveland Indians' through 2017. Additionally, WMMS 100.7 will become the FM home of the Indians." Note that the Indians and Clear Channel were careful to differentiate between WTAM and WMMS. The same wording from the Indians and CC continues into 2014: "Longtime flagship radio station WTAM AM 1100 will broadcast 10 games, including the opener. Meanwhile, for the second year, some Indians Spring Training games also will appear on the FM home of the Indians, WMMS 100.7 FM." Levdr1lp / talk 06:17, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: Compromise - how about we refer to WMMS as "The FM Home/Co-Flagship station of the Indians"? This way the FM Home designation gets top billing (via it's prevalence), but also respecting the fact that 100.7 is considered by the team and the local media as a flagship...why be one or the other? Vjmlhds (talk) 06:29, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: I don't think so. That's a little too complicated, and it contradicts what the team has said in an *actual* press release, not merely some tucked-away affiliate list link. I think we should wait to see wait, if anything, the team says about the WMMS status in future press releases and the like. The affiliate link may have simply placed WMMS in the "flagship" category out of convenience. Don't you think there would some kind of notice, on-air or online, that WMMS had graduated to being a full "flagship"? Certainly the station would promote itself as such as they did w/ the Browns. Keep in mind, again, that WMMS airs fewer games overall, and does not air other Indians radio network programming (WTAM does). Levdr1lp / talk 06:36, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: Now I'm gonna tap out. Though hairs are getting split and nits are getting picked, at the end of the day it's not that big of a deal, so as a great philosopher once said..."Th-th-th-that's all folks!" Vjmlhds (talk) 06:44, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: Misplaced Pages is detail-oriented. Levdr1lp / talk 06:53, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

What should be done is this: since WMMS is listed as a flagship, it should be noted as such. The Indians have endorsed that as it is on their site. We on Misplaced Pages can not decide which station is a flagship and which isn't. However, if there is information that they will not be running all games (is there another team that airs on their station?) then that too should be noted. That does not mean they are not a flagship because it is defined as one by the Indians. Also, that fact should be noted as such on the Indians' Radio Network Misplaced Pages page with "does not air all games" in parentheses.Stereorock (talk) 15:37, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

@Stereorock: The Indians sources contradict themselves; all but one unambiguously describe WMMS as the "FM home". So, no, WMMS should not be referred to as a "flagship". You don't get to cherry pick a single source and use it to trump the dozens of existing sources dating back to Jan. 2013. Levdr1lp / talk

As I stated, calling WMMS an F.M. home is marketing, not official terminology. You don't get to choose, you're right-the Indians' website trumps some sports page articles. Also, sources going back to January 2013-you mean last season? Because, this appears to be a change for the current season-2014.Stereorock (talk) 21:28, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

@Stereorock: Your claim that it's "just marketing" is WP:OR, plain and simple. And if you bother to click on the actual press statements I linked above, you'll see the term "FM home" is still in use. So, again, the sources taken directly from the Indians contradict themselves. The overwhelming majority of sources from the Indians use the term "FM home" (all but one, actually). Levdr1lp / talk 11:03, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

So if ancient scrolls were found saying the world was flat, we'd have to accept them as fact just because they're there...got it. Vjmlhds (talk) 20:00, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: Content in articles reflects what reliable sources say. To date, all but one source taken directly from the Indians uses the term "FM home". Are you suggesting we ignore all other sources from the team since Jan. 2013 in favor of a single weblink? Levdr1lp / talk 20:21, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Things get updated...when new info comes out, it shouldn't be disregard just because of the "quantity" of old info. Vjmlhds (talk) 20:54, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: It would be inaccurate to call concurrent press releases "old info". Levdr1lp / talk 21:00, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

After reviewing this ongoing discussion, I think it's worth pointing out two key points. First, and to reiterate, neither WMMS nor the Cleveland Indians Radio Network have ever referred to or promoted WMMS as a "flagship" while on the air. Secondly, this article is about WMMS, and WMMS refers to itself on-air and online at WMMS.com as the "FM home". It seems to me we should be giving just as much, if not more, weight to the subject of this article than the Indians. Levdr1lp / talk 21:22, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: We refer to the station as the flagship station for Rover, but is there anything out there that uses the term? No. But since Rover's show is based at and originates from WMMS, by definition, the term flagship applies. Here, we actually have a solid source which declares WMMS as an Indians flagship, yet you balk. On the surface it just looks like you're being stubborn in not wanting to change from your preferred term, rather than realize that there's evidence to the contrary. Vjmlhds (talk) 21:51, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: Except RoverRadio.com does, in fact, refer to WMMS as the show's "flagship" (note the URL). Moreover, Rover is based at WMMS, and WMMS is the only station in his home market that carries the show. The Indians, however, not only air on another station in Cleveland, but more games, and more network coverage on that second station. Of course, there's still the current press releases from the Indians which continue to reserve "flagship" for WTAM. Levdr1lp / talk 22:11, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

At the end of the day, it's 2-1 in favor of labeling WMMS as a flagship. Vjmlhds (talk) 02:07, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: This is not a vote. I've yet to read anything to convince me that WMMS ought to be referred to only as the team's "flagship"; I have edited the lead and Indians coverage section accordingly. Most (all but one) of the sources taken directly from the Indians use "FM home". One uses "flagship". I've noted both terms in the appropriate section in the article. Levdr1lp / talk 02:34, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: Why do YOU need to be convinced about anything...you are not the boss of me OR the article. Vjmlhds (talk) 02:36, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: I'm not saying I'm the boss. My point is that you can't simply disregard the sum of my points. You and Stereorock think the station should be referred to as a "flagship". Fine. I still disagree, and the content in the article should reflect that difference in opinion. THAT'S consensus. Levdr1lp / talk 02:39, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: YOU DO NOT dictate the terms. When I say something that's how it stays. I'm sick of you dictating the terms. You are not better than me, I am not beneath you. You are not a better editor than me. My edits are good, I'm tired of you automatically rejecting my edits. For once YOU leave MY edits alone! Vjmlhds (talk) 02:47, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: This isn't either/or. This isn't "flagship" or "FM home". It's not one is right and the other is wrong. It's about reflecting what all the coverage out there says on the matter. Nearly all sources from the Indians use "FM home", but I am willing to compromise and note the lone use of "flagship". Levdr1lp / talk 02:49, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

I have reconsidered my position, specifically because the Indians Radio Affiliates link lists both WTAM and WMMS under the heading "Flagship Stations" (note the plural used of the word "station"). This, along with the August 2013 Cleveland.com story, has convinced me that "flagship" should be used unless and until either the Indians or WMMS make a special distinction otherwise (e.g., if either the team or WMMS began consistently differentiating WMMS from WTAM as an "affiliate", or explicitly stated something like "WMMS is not a flagship of the Indians Radio Network"). Levdr1lp / talk 18:31, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Format/logo

Sports should be considered as part of WMMS's format.

Between the Indians and now the Cavs, that means about 240-250 ball games will be heard on 100.7, and that's a lot of programming time devoted to sports.

This isn't like when they had the Browns, and only had one game a week.

Figure about four hours per game broadcast (including pregame/postgame shows) multiplied by 250 total Indians and Cavs games (factoring in preseason and playoff broadcasts), and that's 1,000 hours a year of sports programming - plenty enough to consider sports as a big part of the mix at the Buzzard.

Vjmlhds (talk) 19:04, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

As further evidence of this, WMMS has on their website a new modified logo of not only the road sign, but the Buzzard dunking a basketball. Throughout baseball season, they had the Buzzard swinging a baseball bat with a Chief Wahoo-esque feather in his hair. All this is just to show how WMMS is emphasizing their sports coverage as a big part of their programming, thus making it worthy of being included in the station's format description. Vjmlhds (talk) 19:32, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Here's the logo WMMS used during baseball season. I wanted to show it for two reasons; (1) to illustrate how WMMS still prominently uses the Buzzard in it's logos and promotion; (2) to illustrate how the station promotes it's status as the Indians FM flagship - demonstrating how sports programming is an important part of WMMS' overall format. Vjmlhds (talk) 23:27, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: On the format- Sports play-by-play is seasonal; neither the Cavaliers nor the Indians by themselves are part of the station's regular, year-round programming. Lumping the two together and drawing your own conclusion in the absence of independent, reliable sources amounts to WP:SYNTHESIS. WMMS has no regular "sports talk" programming, nor does it have any specialized non-network pre/postgame coverage scheduled around the Indians, unlike sister WTAM. WMMS self-reports to Nielsen Audio as "Active rock", Radio-Locator classifies the station as "Rock", WMMS brands itself "Cleveland's Rock Station", and owner iHeartMedia classifies the station as "Rock". Granted, the station has 9 hours of talk during weekday morning and afternoon drive times, and so given the relative importance of these regular, year-round dayparts, and that multiple reliable sources have reported on the "hybrid" nature of the format, talk is included alongside rock. On the logo- The image on the upper left corner of WMMS.com has frequently changed in the past, and the only constant visual piece lately is the road-sign/wings logo. The station's iHeartRadio feed, arguably more important than the official site itself, uses the road-sign/wings version. WMMS owner iHeartMedia uses the road-sign/wings logo in its online station database. Moreover, there has been no announcement from WMMS, nor has any independent outlet confirmed, that the station has changed its primary logo. Levdr1lp / talk 04:49, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: About the seasonal argument...the 82 game NBA season runs from October—April, while the 162 game MLB season goes from April—October. With both the Tribe and the Cavs, WMMS has assured themselves of having year-round sports events. So it's not like there will be months on end with no sports. At the end of the day, WMMS is branching out from music, by incorporating talk and now sports into the mix to make a hodge-podge "guy" station geared to the male demo...to just call it a "rock station" when the lineup clearly shows otherwise is (imho) short-sighted. Vjmlhds (talk) 14:28, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: Cavaliers play-by-play by itself is seasonal. Indians play-by-play by itself is seasonal. And yes, WMMS happens to carry both. But there are not (yet) multiple reliable sources which have commented/reported on the "branching out" of the station's format. Until then, most of what you're claiming is WP:OR. Levdr1lp / talk 14:38, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: Incidentally, WMMS does not carry every Indians game (latest sources estimate 150/155 non-weekday day games), and I suspect they won't carry every Cavs game either. The Cavs online streaming arrangement is also yet to be determined (WMMS has played rock during Indians play-by-play on the online stream). Levdr1lp / talk 14:50, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: OK, fair enough...what do you think about the scenario where in the infobox we list only the official format designation as per Nielsen, while in the header we can go more into detail. Because in all reality, just because you are listed a certain way to Nielsen, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's all you are. Having 9 hours per day of hot talk and over 200 sports events makes WMMS more than simply a rock station, and I figured the layout I had reflected that. It honored the official Nielsen format designation, while also laying out the various other things that 100.7 has on it's plate. Vjmlhds (talk) 22:34, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: You forget that there are independent sources which have focused on the rock-talk "hybrid" while practically ignoring sports play-by-play. Unless and until there is reliable coverage commenting/reporting on a "braching out" of the WMMS format, there's no basis for changing the wording. It's still just WP:OR at this point. Levdr1lp / talk 22:52, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: Good finds, but remember this - all those articles were written in 2012 and earlier, before WMMS became the Tribe/Cavs FM flagship. Since those articles came out, the sports broadcasts have been added to the mix, causing WMMS to further deviate from the active rock format. My whole point is this...carrying 200+ baseball and basketball games a year isn't something stations like WMMS do, and merely mentioning that they carry a mix of active rock, hot talk, and sports broadcasts isn't saying anything that's either incorrect or unverifiable. Vjmlhds (talk) 23:05, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: You're forgetting the Browns. Levdr1lp / talk 23:07, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: Something else to consider, re: "over 1,000 hours". If WMMS were to air every preseason, regular season, and every-possible-postseason game for both teams, that would amount to 1320 hours of content (assuming 4 hrs for every combined pregame, in-game, & postgame). That would account for roughly 15.3% of all annual programming; talk would account for 29.1%, (2538 hrs) and rock 55.1% (4816 hrs, nearly 4X larger than play-by-play). Of course, WMMS will not air every game: the station only aired 3 of 31 preseason Indians games, and roughly 155 of 162 Indians regular season games. And while the Cavaliers are likely to play deep into the 2015 playoffs, the Indians played only one postseason game in 2013 and zero in 2014. Moreover, neither the MLB nor NBA allows local radio to stream play-by-play. Levdr1lp / talk 23:23, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: The Browns are different, as they only aired 20 games a year (counting preseason) and it's fairly common for rock stations to carry football (for example, WDVE is the longtime Pittsburgh Steelers FM flagship). But for a station like 'MMS to carry baseball and basketball is definitely a unique situation. And even at conservative estimates of say 150 Indians games and 75 Cavs games, that's still 225 sports events per year, which averages out to about 5 games a week over 52 weeks, and at 4 hours a pop, that makes 900 hours, which is still over 10% of all air time, which isn't small change. Compare that to 20 football games at 7 hours a piece (including pre/post game), that's merely 140 hours, under 2% of all air time). So by swapping out the Browns for the Indians and Cavaliers, WMMS has increased their sports coverage over 6-fold (and that's conservative), so sports is (by pure arithmetic) a far greater presence on WMMS than it was even 2 years ago. Vjmlhds (talk) 02:18, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: "... it's fairly common for rock stations to carry football..." <--- WP:OR. "But for a station like 'MMS to carry baseball and basketball is definitely unique..." <--- WP:OR. (BTW, you are forgetting weekly network shows & Draft coverage for the Browns...) While the amount of play-by-play has grown, its overall share of progamming is still relatively small. Over the next year, the station will air 10-15% play-by-play, 55-60% rock, and 30% talk. Compare play-by-play to talk. WMMS airs at least twice as much talk programming. Talk programming also is regular and year-round, airs during morning and afternoon drive time, and is always available online. Play-by-play is seasonal, airs during non-peak hours, and is not avialble through the WMMS online stream. But again, more important than any of this, is what reliable, independent sources say. Levdr1lp / talk 02:48, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: I'm gonna stand down on this, as we're at a loggerheads. At the end of the day, it isn't that big of a deal. I tried adding some good faith info to the article, it didn't pass the test, life goes on. The main thing is that it's mentioned in the article that 'MMS is the Tribe and Cavs FM flagship along with all the other stuff they run, so the label really isn't that important as long as the info is there. Vjmlhds (talk) 03:10, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: Fair enough. Incidentally, I just realized that rock alone constitutes a majority of the station's programming. Levdr1lp / talk 03:43, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: Cool chart, and nice job with the number crunching earlier. Vjmlhds (talk) 03:49, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: Please do not circumvent the normal discussion process, as you did here, particularly when you yourself stated just days ago that the issue of the wording of the lead was settled. Nothing really changed yesterday except the Cavaliers confirmed what had already been reported by Crain's. Nothing new was learned, with the only possible exception being that the new deal is "multiyear" in length, just like the 2008 extension into 2013-14 was "multiyear" in length. Levdr1lp / talk 17:04, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: BTW, note the station logo used by both the Cavs (direct link), and the Indians (see bottom of PDF file). Levdr1lp / talk 17:12, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: I wasn't trying to circumvent anything. I didn't try to include sports in the format or change the logo. My thinking was just to group all the rock/talk stuff together, and in a separate sentence describe their sports coverage. No foul play was intended, nor was I trying to go back on what I had said earlier. I thought I was making the header easier to read (without going into too much detail, I find sections that have a little more spacing easier to read...it's an eye thing.) Vjmlhds (talk) 18:06, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: I see nothing wrong with simply stating -- in the lead especially -- that the station is the FM flagship for both teams. Keep the wording simple w/o getting redundant. Also, you may want to look at the logo links I posted. Levdr1lp / talk 18:15, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: I saw the logos...just the road sign. Again, I didn't change the logo (yesterday...I know last week I did), and I get it - the road sign is the primary logo, with the Buzzard secondary (like the dunking Buzzard currently on the website, or the "Chief Wahoo Buzzard" that was there during baseball season). All I ask is a little extra spacing...that's all. Vjmlhds (talk) 18:26, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: Ah, missed the bit about the logo in your previous reply, so I apologize for that. As for your "eye thing", if by that you mean you have a vision problem, then I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, I don't think splitting four or five sentences into smaller paragraphs is justified for the benefit of a single reader (I could possibly understand breaking up a much larger paragraph). Levdr1lp / talk 19:18, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: Appreciate the sentiment. Don't get the wrong idea...I'm not going blind or anything, it's just that (for me) it's easier to read when it's broken up a little bit (and I'm sure it's that way for others as well...Wiki has lots of eyeballs, and it's highly doubtful they're all 20/20). Again, wasn't trying anything sinister, just trying to tweak things a touch to make it (at least as I saw it) easier to read. Vjmlhds (talk) 20:23, 9 October 2014 (UTC)~

@Vjmlhds: Nothing "sinister" perceived. And I think if you spend some time reviewing recent good and featured articles, you'd see that the lead paragraphs aren't really that long at all (incidentally, you yourself do have a somewhat unique habit of often splitting up every single sentence in your discussion entries). Levdr1lp / talk 23:06, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: Just an old habit/quirk I guess. You notice once a discussion gets going (especially when we start pinging each other) I don't do that. But I know I usually start off things that way, and as I said, it's just a quirk...I've always done that while e-mailing and on non-Wiki discussion boards, so I guess it just kinda carried over here. Vjmlhds (talk) 18:03, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

99X

While officially an HD2 subchannel of WMMS, 99X does (technically) have it's own frequency (99.1), and is promoted and treated as it's own entity.

So while I don't think it should get it's own article, I think it would be appropriate to have it listed in it's own section, and not just merely lumped into the "music" section.

Thank you.

Vjmlhds (talk) 18:10, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not promotional, and I suspect this request has more to do with yesterday's announcement (via a promotional press release) about 99X airing 22 Lake Erie Monsters games this season than w/ any real concern over how WMMS-HD2 is "treated" in the programming section. Levdr1lp / talk 01:31, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

iHeart does promote 99X as it's own entity (the whole reason for the 99X name is due to it's position on 99.1 FM). Yes it airs on WMMS HD2, but WCLV airs on WCPN HD2, and WERE and WJMO air on WENZ HD2 and HD3, so it's not like it's a unique thing for one station to air another station on an HD subchannel, while also airing on it's own frequency. 99X has a stand alone frequency and a stand alone website, so, in many ways, it's its own entity. Vjmlhds (talk) 14:19, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Low-power FM translators are not permitted to originate their own programming, unlike the full power AM & FM stations you have cited. WCPN-HD2 simulcasts WCLV, somewhat like how W256BT simulcasts WMMS-HD2. The key difference, however, is that WCLV originates the programming in the first case, while WMMS-HD2 originates the programming in the second case. This is all explained in detail in the "Rock music and WMMS-HD2" subsection, and that heading/organization should remain as is. Nearly all programming on WMMS-HD2 is rock music. Yes, per the recent Monsters' press release, it now airs 22 minor league hockey games, but this represents less than one-third of the Monsters regular season. The fact all 22 games fall on Saturday nights, and that OSU football+basketball affiliate WKNR airs the majority of Monsters games, really makes me think this is mostly a glorified backup-station situation. The fact is nearly all programming on HD2 remains rock. And there is already a dedicated sports section. Levdr1lp / talk 00:33, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Gotcha...the WCPN/WCLV comparison makes sense the way you explained it. Case closed. Vjmlhds (talk) 12:21, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I said it was case closed regarding putting 99X in it's own section, which I still agree with...that hasn't changed. All I did was merely change the section heading from WMMS-HD2 to the shorter, more familiarly known name of 99X. Shouldn't section headings be as short and to the point as possible? Besides, we also just had a discussion about referring to the station as 99X, instead of constantly using WMMS-HD2 or W256BT since 99X is the most common way that the station/translator is referred to. Vjmlhds (talk) 20:53, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: Actually, you didn't specify how exactly this was "case closed", so I was left to assume you had settled on all the points raised, as well as the pre-existing status quo for all other content. As for use of the HD2 branding specifically ("99X"), I agreed to change the wording in the Sports PBP Monsters paragraph *only*. At first we couldn't agree on how much or how little detail to use in reference to WMMS-HD2 (full callsign vs. HD2 abbreviation, callsign alone vs. callsign + translator, no frequency vs. one-or-both frequencies, etc.). So in the interest of moving on, we reached a compromise on one single paragraph. The only thing to change w.r.t. programming is now the HD2 subchannel airs a limited number of minor league hockey games -- and that fact has already been discussed and addressed in the wording of the programming section. The 99X brand is inherently (and quite obviously) promotional; it is already clearly noted in the lead & programming subsections, and so I see no reason to make further changes to long-stable content. Levdr1lp / talk 22:01, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Sports Coverage

Now that the Lake Erie Monsters are airing a good chunk of their games on 99X, I think it would now be appropriate to change the "Indians and Cavaliers" section to "Sports Coverage", now that WMMS has 3 teams in the family between HD 1 and HD2.

Thank you.

Vjmlhds (talk) 23:22, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem with changing the heading, though I think "Sports play-by-play" is more descriptive. Levdr1lp / talk 01:13, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Cool beans. User:Vjmlhds (talk) 14:20, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I say tomato, you say solanum lycopersicum

You can still keep things formal and encyclopedic without going too much into "geek-speak" and alphabet soup...why use 12 words when 5 work just as well?

That's all I'm saying.

Vjmlhds (talk) 14:03, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Here is a story from the Plain Dealer (last year) talking about the beginning of Monsters camp. I show this because in it they refer to WMMS-HD2/W256BT simply as "99X". The PD is by no means a promotional arm of the Monsters, and they chose to simply use the most common ID the station uses. I don't even use the branding - I use 99.1 FM because it's easier to digest and gets straight to the point w/o coming off as trying to hype the station. Using simpler terminology stays within bounds of WP:NPOV, and isn't trying to be promotional in any way. Vjmlhds (talk) 20:37, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

And here's a story from WEWS reporting on a Monsters game from last year, referring to W256BT as 99X/99.1 FM Again, channel 5 has no skin in the game i.e. promoting the Monsters, and they used the simplest way to talk about the station. Vjmlhds (talk) 20:43, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

The brand used by WMMS-HD2 & its translator is clearly noted in the lead, the infobox, and the programming section. The subject of this article is WMMS, not its HD2 translator, and not the Monsters hockey team – forcing through the same brand (and translator frequency) repeatedly is both redundant and excessive. Levdr1lp / talk 03:34, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

After giving this some additional thought, I suppose it does makes sense to use "99X" as that is how WMMS-HD2 (and W256BT) is promoted in the team press release. I still don't see any need, however, to note the 99X frequencies (100.7-HD2 and/or 99.1) just as there is no need to note the WMMS frequency for the Cavs & Indians broadcasts. Doing so would be redundant. Levdr1lp / talk 05:42, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm cool with this - my whole point was that there was no need to use "WMMS-HD2 digital subchannel" or W256BT each and every time 99X came up. Vjmlhds (talk) 14:10, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Rock/Talk/Sports "Guy Zone"

Finally - I found a good reference, from a writer that attached their name to it from a good, legitimate source that verifies what WMMS is - a rock/talk/sports mix.

Only difference is, they use the term "guy zone", and I had used the term "man cave" - same idea though.

Point being, there's finally something tangible I can point to to verify what I have maintained all along.

Vjmlhds (talk) 21:50, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

The author – a well-known local photographer who worked for WMMS in the 70s/80s under former PD John Gorman – does not use the word format once in reference to the station's current programming in the Scene story. I would hardly consider the source unbiased (she uses words like "mundane" and "bland" to describe the station today while praising the time she worked there). And if you're going to force through a term similar to one you have actively promoted both on this site and elsewhere, you might as well throw in "hot babes" too because it's given the same exact weight as "sports". Levdr1lp / talk 04:00, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I think it's also worth pointing out that the Scene author wrote the story in 2012; at that time, WMMS was the FM flagship for the Browns, not the Cavs and not the Indians. So basically the author equates "emphasis on sports" to airing Browns games. Applying her view today, that would mean WNCX also has "an emphasis on sports". It would mean WMJI had an "emphasis on sports" when the Browns aired on that station in the late 90s. But that's not how we consider WNCX today, and it's not how WMJI was considered in the late 90s; no, WNCX is commonly referred to and promoted as a classic rock station, similar to how WMJI was commonly referred to and promoted as an oldies station in the late 90s, both despite Browns coverage. The point here is that you're citing an at least somewhat biased writer who arguably mischaracterized this station's programming over three years ago when it had an affiliation it no longer does today. Levdr1lp / talk 07:57, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

WMMS' programming which targets the male 25–34 demographic is no different than every other active rock station across the country. Sports may be placed on various sister stations depending on the local market but otherwise WMMS is pretty much generic active rock geared toward a 70% male audience, as it is everywhere. Not sure why this needs to be particularly emphasized here or given a special label. Piriczki (talk) 13:54, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Now that a third, objective voice has chimed in, case closed here (for me) as well. Vjmlhds (talk) 14:12, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

@Piriczki: Thank you for sharing your input. Levdr1lp / talk 05:55, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

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"Limited coverage"

"Sharing limited coverage" is misleading. All Monsters games are broadcast on the radio, with 3 stations (WKNR/WHK/99X) splitting the coverage (save a couple of stragglers 850 bumps over to 1540). They share coverage...period. "Limited" makes it sound like there's only a few games on the radio, and that those few games are split. No need to add that qualifier.

Vjmlhds (talk) 00:25, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds: On the contrary, stating the three radio outlets share coverage without any qualifier is misleading. It implies all three outlets share the full Monsters schedule, when in reality each outlet only airs approximately one-third of the full schedule. WKNR airs limited coverage in that in airs only 32 of the 76 total games. WHK airs limited coverage in that it airs only 18 of the 76 total games. And, yes, 99X airs limited coverage in that it only airs 22 of the 76 total games. Put another way: most Monsters games do *not* air on 99X. Levdr1lp / talk 14:02, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: Point taken. Standing down. Vjmlhds (talk) 14:51, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

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Station markets

In response to these edits, I'm not in any way convinced that a radio station market (and/or COL) should necessarily be placed in parentheses. Levdr1lp / talk 09:28, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

A slash, to me, is the wrong separator because a slash means "or" or "also". So, a correct use of a slash would be, for example, WHK-FM/WMMS. The Popular Communications style would be WMMS/100.7-Cleveland. I'm not even sure something has to separate the callsign and the community of license, e.g. "WMMS Cleveland". A slash is the wrong symbol as separation isn't it's function. "WMMS/100.7 Cleveland" would be a proper use of the slash, as it's another aspect of the station's identity, a "what", like WMMS is, instead of a where. Misplaced Pages's own page about the slash defines, among its functions, as connecting alternatives. To a Clevelander/Clevelandite (not sure which is which), "100.7" would be an alternative to WMMS when talking about the station, but "Cleveland" is not (same with anywhere else, Cleveland and WMMS are not equal to each other). So, separating a station from its market with a slash is incorrect. A slash does not perform that function. It can separate cities (WSNE-FM Taunton/Providence) or 2 markets a station serves (WCTK New Bedford/Providence), but not a callsign from its community of license/market. I think a simple space suffices.Stereorock (talk) 15:29, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

I seriously doubt readers will misread a slash used in this way as meaning "or" or "also". You said it yourself: "Cleveland and WMMS are not equal to each other." I couldn't agree more- the possibility of a callsign and market/COL being seen as equivalent to each other is so very remote that it's almost not even worth addressing. The Callsign-Slash-Market format is often used on Misplaced Pages as it's simple, direct, accessible, and more importantly, reflects a common usage found in reliable coverage on the radio industry. Recent examples include:

• WMMR/Philadelphia (FMQB.com)
• KROQ/Los Angeles (AllAccess.com)
• 50+ similar examples (Radio Ink)

The first time any radio station is noted, that radio station is linked w/ a wikilink to the station's article. Does a reader really need to know the frequency of WRIF/Detroit in a Cleveland radio station article, particularly when the WRIF article is linked, or is the market itself more relevant and useful? I say market. For reasons of clarity and organization, I also find it preferable to link a callsign & market together w/ a slash, especially when listing multiple stations in a row like in the case of the Rover's Morning Glory affiliates. I suppose one could use a space instead, but a slash communicates to the reader that the callsign/market combination denotes a single thing (station) rather than two things (station, city). The market name is a modifier, and the slash emphasizes this (probably why it's commonly used in the industry publications). Levdr1lp / talk 06:38, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Play-by-play modifier

The station is already an FM station & calling it as such is more akin to comparing it to AM versus online.Stereorock (talk) 14:04, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Stereorock- Obviously the station is FM. However, it shares flagship status with an AM station-- in other words, it is an *FM* flagship airing play-by-play on the *FM* band (also significant as play-by-play has traditionally aired much more on AM). Moreover, play-by-play is limited to the over-the-air *FM* broadcast and does not stream online via the station webcast (though with endless promotion of the iHeartRadio website & app, readers might incorrectly assume play-by-play is also online as nearly all radio station webstreams simulcast nearly all over-the-air programming). Hence the emphasis of the over-the-air FM broadcast band. Levdr1lp / talk 14:27, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Levdr1lp Putting “FM” in makes it look like there’s an A.M. side of WMMS. That being said, changing it to “Over-the-air play-by-play” wouldn’t be accurate because it also talks about streaming. The cleanest & clearest way to retire the section would be “Sports play-by-play”. Put in the section about teams also being heard on WTAM. Saying “FM” in the section head is misleading in that you’re trying to achieve 2 things here with it (comparing it to A.M., & streaming) and it’s too broad. Putting in “FM” in the title is only worthwhile when the article is talking about an A.M./F.M. simulcast that occasionally does break for separate games.Stereorock (talk) 02:22, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Stereorock- No reader of this article could possibly think there is some "AM side of WMMS"; nowhere in the lead, infobox, main body, or any subsection is there any reference to an AM signal broadcast from this station. And so, yes, changing the header to "Over-the-air play-by-play" would be not only be accurate (as it clearly informs readers of the situation), but also more specific and more descriptive (if a bit clunky). Emphasizing in the header that play-by-play is limited to the traditional over-the-air broadcast concisely summarizes the situation described in the section text. In 2018, it is reasonable to assume that, by default, a broadcast radio station streams its programming online. It is more noteworthy if/when a station does not stream its programming online, such as the case here, and the content ought to clearly reflect that. Levdr1lp / talk 11:11, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Levdr1lp: When I think of F.M., the natural compliment to it is A.M. (apples to apples), not streaming (apples to oranges), so I think there *is* an avenue of possible confusion. I see "FM play-by-play" & I think "as opposed to what? A.M.?" It didn't even occur to me that streaming is what it is being compared to, & that, I think, is the problem. You're right in that pretty much every station does stream now, so putting "FM" seems odd. To me, the line should be clear, and it's not initially clear why "FM" is there. This is why I am pushing for it to be renamed *simply* Play-by-play as that is brief, but concise enough, to not only get across what the section is really about, but also broad enough to cover the air signal and streaming. Sports should be put in front of play-by-play if the station airs more than one sport; if not it should say whatever that team is.Stereorock (talk) 22:01, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Stereorock- WMMS -- the subject of this article -- is available for listening primarily one of two ways: through over-the-air broadcast FM; or through online streaming. (Incidentally, it's the latter which is increasingly relevant in the digital age, particularly for a more traditional media outlet which targets a relatively younger demographic.) At no point in this article is it ever stated or even implied that there is some AM-type of listening alternative for WMMS itself, because (obviously) there isn't one. No reader of this article could possibly think WMMS broadcasts over AM, and so no reader will think "FM in this section header makes me wonder if WMMS-on-AM is a potential alternative way to listen". What's more likely -- with your preferred version -- is for readers to incorrectly assume that play-by-play is available both over-the-air *and* online, especially given the constant promotion of, and listener push toward iHeartRadio. On the other hand, stating Rover is available both ways would be unnecessary because it's understood to be the case by default. The same goes for Alan Cox, or rock music shifts, or just about any other station programming. The lone exception is play-by-play, which is *only* available over-the-air. That's why it's noted in the section. And that's why it should be emphasized in the header. Moreover, "sports play-by-play" is less informative (overlooks the online restriction) and redundant (play-by-play is already a type of sports program). Levdr1lp / talk 02:26, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Levdr1lpI disagree because as I stated previously, seeing “FM” brings up the question “why is FM stated here?” and the natural compliment to FM is AM, not online. It sounds like you’re assuming somebody has already read through everything else prior to this section header, and is familiar with WMMS, whereas I am not assuming such a thing. Calling the section “Sports play-by-play” works it does not assume anything about what the reader may already know or not know about the station. It does not assume one way or the other about over-the-air vs. online listening, which is explained in full in the section, which is where FM vs. online listening options should be explained. It’s simple, clear, & not confusing. That WMMS is ostensively a rock station that airs sports as well, instead of being a rock station at all hours is more of an attention-grabber because, again, it assumes a casual reader has skipped over the frequency & format sections, or at the very least, just saw them as words. Maybe they came to that section directly from a wikilink. Calling the section “Sports play-by-play” reinforces the notion that this is a rock station that also airs sports, instead of being all rock all the time. Stereorock (talk) 12:51, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Stereorock- I agree that readers may wonder "Why is FM stated here?", and you are correct that the (traditional) compliment to FM is AM, as they are both broadcast radio bands. But you overlook a few points. First, you keep assuming that "FM" in the header only serves one purpose: to distinguish the over-the-air FM broadcast from the online webcast. It also serves a second purpose. WMMS is noted as the "FM flagship" in both the lead and programming section, because WMMS *shares* its status as a flagship station with an AM sister station. I don't see anything wrong with emphasizing "FM" in a programming section which describes an FM flagship sharing coverage in a single market with its AM sister. (Incidentally, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that readers have *read* at least the lead of this article; there are no incoming links to the play-by-play subsection, nor do I anticipate any.) Second, broadcast radio stations in general -- and especially those owned by iHeartMedia like WMMS -- are increasingly directing listeners online. The proliferation of mobile devices and bluetooth technology has had and will continue to have a major impact of traditional broadcast radio listening habits. The very fact play-by-play itself is generally not available online is reflective of this dynamic (leagues are better able to control and monetize play-by-play through subscription services). It's misleading to ignore this. Lastly, as I previously noted, your preferred version ("sports play-by-play") is both less informative in that it ignores the restriction to the over-the-air broadcast; and redundant as "play-by-play" is itself a type of sports broadcast. No reader will think "play-by-play" refers to cooking or dating or roadwork or whatever else. Why not communicate more to the reader rather than less, particularly when it's a better summary of the section's content? It matters less what readers might wonder "FM" implies ("as opposed to what? AM?"), and more what it literally states. "FM play-by-play" is just that: play-by-play via the over-the-air FM broadcast. Levdr1lp / talk 19:49, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Levdr1lpLet me ask you this, as I am not in Cleveland, so I can not hear WMMS: is the play-by-play that airs on WMMS the same, or different, from WTAM? The part about "FM play-by-play" to me indicates that these are separate, and different, feeds. Stereorock (talk) 20:23, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Per this discussion at Stereorock's talk page, I am changing the header to "Broadcast play-by-play". Levdr1lp / talk 21:24, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

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