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== Paid editors == | |||
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== RIP == | |||
It is good to have you at the BP article. I have been concerned about paid editors ever since my experience with Silverseren at the ] article. Also, please see topic #24 at the ] article where I say, ''I have spent several hours to familiarize myself with this environmental disaster. I've never worked on an article where it was acceptable for a controversial section of a corporation article to be completely rewritten as the corporate rep has done in this case. I think that it should go without saying that this is completely unacceptable for Misplaced Pages. I find the rewrite a brazen attempt to bias our readers to the Chevron viewpoint rather than an unbiased telling of this unfolding incident. This paid editor has gotten rid of the Independent, the BBC, Reuters, and CBS and replaced them with court documents and Forbes." All it would take would be for a person such as Silverseren to round up a crew to get this paid version into the article. ] (]) 23:44, 17 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
I've been notified by Sarah's family that she passed away after a long illness and have offered to them to post the news here. If it needs to be posted elsewhere, will an admin please do so. Sarah was an inspiration to me and over the years became a good wiki friend. Though I knew she was ill, she never complained, she continued to edit right up to the end, and yet I suspected it was often difficult for her. She has a strong body of work here, and I know from chatting with her that she was deeply committed to the project. I'm unbearably sad. ] (]) 23:58, 8 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
:*<small>For historical record...</small> An obit for Sarah was published community wide on Wiki on ] | |||
:*<small>One more for historical record...</small>A published obituary by states, {{xt|Although Sarah was an accomplished journalist, few people knew of her first love, which was working with the international website Misplaced Pages, the mostly volunteer, online encyclopedia, which she joined in its formative years, shortly after its start-up in 2002. Sarah began editing Misplaced Pages in 2004 under the nom de plume, Slim Virgin, sometimes shortened to SV in more polite Misplaced Pages circles.}} She is greatly missed. ] ] ] 02:42, 8 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
*I know we didn't always agree but I have a lot of respect for Sarah's many valuable contributions and am sorry to hear this. (] · ]) ''']''' 00:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*...]<sup>]/]</sup> 00:04, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
**]. Thank you for all the work you've done, all the stuff you've written that I wouldn't have otherwise known about, helping out with the Elisa unblock and being patient when I was taking long getting the information for it... that was one of the first times where I really interacted with the community and you showed the nice side of it, you helped me understand something I hadn't. ]<sup>]/]</sup> 01:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Oh no -- I'm so sorry to hear 😢 Terrible news. ]] 00:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*This news is heartbreaking and I am devastated. SV's value to the 'pedia is immense and she cannot be replaced. My deepest sympathies to her friends and family. ]|] 00:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Saddened beyond measure. ] 00:30, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*May Mors guide her safely to the afterlife. ] (]) 00:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*<nowiki>:</nowiki>( RIP —] • ] • ] 00:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*What devastating news. Sarah was a wonderful person and an irreplaceable Wikipedian. Sarah's work set an extraordinarily high bar—see the long list of excellent articles she developed at ]. The barnstars on her user page shows how the community will miss her. Farewell Sarah. ] (]) 00:59, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I'm incredibly sorry to hear this. ] ] 01:03, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* 😔😔😔 ]] 01:05, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Terribly saddened to hear this news. Sarah leaves an excellent body of work that will continue to be read by millions of people in years to come, and I cannot think of a more fitting legacy. ] (]) 01:28, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*My condolences to her family and anyone else that knew her. You will be missed --] (]) 01:34, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*So sorry to hear this. Sarah was such a dedicated, prolific, longterm Wikipedian. Best wishes to her family and friends. ] (]) 01:37, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* This is a truly immeasurable loss for this project. SlimVirgin is responsible for writing the bulk of what is currently our ], which has proven to be one of this project's most important content policies, as well as our ]. In this project's early days, she also contributed to the development of core content policies such as ] and ]. It would be quite fair to say that the success of Misplaced Pages so far is a direct consequence of the fundamental principles that SlimVirgin was instrumental to codifying. In other words, Misplaced Pages might not exist in the ubiquitous form it does today if not for SlimVirgin. We have lost one of our very best editors. ] (]) 01:47, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*:Talk about a titan of an editor. Besides shaping some of the core policies and guidelines of the project, her reviewed work (GA+FL) has over 800,000 views in the last 30 days alone. It reflects such a range of interests with everything from Christian Scientists to Genetial Mutilation to political scandals show just how talented she was. It also shows how willing she was to do meaningful and deep work even in subjects that are hard to read and write about both emotionally (see also her work on Night) and because of the reaction of others (including those whose values don't align with Misplaced Pages). What a loss for our project. Best, ] (]) 02:21, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*A huge loss. For any new Wikipedian, it's just a matter of time before you become familiar with the name SlimVirgin -- if not her impressive article work, then her outsized influence within and upon the project. One of the few "household names" of Misplaced Pages who will surely be among the first inducted to a Hall of Fame should we ever set one up. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 01:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*This is terrible news. Sarah was a great contributor to Misplaced Pages, and a respected member of the community. My best wishes to her family and friends in this difficult time. ] (]) 02:00, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Very sad -- Sarah and I didn't always see eye to eye but she always made me think, and our last exchanges were very cordial. My condolences to her family and friends. ] (]) 02:14, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*A great loss to the community here, it must be more so for those who knew them in person. ] (]) 02:36, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I knew she wasn't well, but had no idea she had so little time left; she worked so long even when it was hard for her. Great sadness. Great loss. Condolences to her friends and family. ] (]) 02:39, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*My condolences to her family and friends. I interacted with Sarah on only a few occasions, but found her extremely insightful and helpful each time. Of course, I know her better for her reputation as a tireless content creator—a huge loss to the community. ] (]) 02:41, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*She wrote many of the best and most important articles on all of Misplaced Pages, as well as several personal favorites. A true loss. ] <sup>]</sup>] 02:44, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Sarah was one of those Wikipedians that everyone around here knew. But from where our paths crossed, I did not realize I could only see the tip of the iceberg that represents her foundational, exceptionally prolific, and diverse contributions. Love. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– ]</span> (] ⋅ ]) 02:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Awwww .. drat. Sarah helped me so much with understanding policies when I first started. This is such a HUGE loss to the project. My heart and prayers to her family and friends - I am so sorry. ] (]) 02:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* We never interacted personally, but I am grateful for her extensive contributions — her passion and varied interests are reflected in some of the most well-written articles on this site. I've always associated her name with kindness and good faith. Her death is a great loss for the encyclopaedia, the greater community, and her family and friends. My condolences to anyone who knew her personally. ] (]) 03:01, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*One of the true leaders of English Misplaced Pages. If her family and friends should read this goodbye thread, I hope they get a sense of how respected she was amongst us, how important her contributions were to our community, and how enduring will prove her edits and assertions to be. Her life, enthusiasm and energy have created vibrations which will echo as long as English is spoken (and perhaps beyond). ] (]) 04:06, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*So sad; a big loss. Condolences to all her family and friends. ] (]) 04:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*She was generous, insightful, and fair. A great loss. So sorry to see this.]] 04:20, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I'm so sorry... Eventually, soon, we all will be together. If the fates allow. Until then, Sarah.. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 04:22, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*We’ve lost another brave, strong, woman from our midst. Way too soon. I am going to miss her intelligence, insight, courage and the brilliant light she brought to the world. Rest in peace, dear one. ]<sup>]</sup> 04:32, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*This project will not be the same without you. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 04:57, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Sad to hear of this news. Deepest condolences to her family and friends. ] (]) 04:58, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Such sad news. RIP. ''']'''] 05:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Very sad to hear this news. You will be missed. ''']''' ] 06:23, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I am really sorry to hear this.--] (]) 06:49, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Sad news indeed. RIP, and many thanks for all your valuable contributions down the years. — ] (]) 07:30, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Goodbye Sarah. I hope you knew how much you were appreciated; not just for the massive contributions you made to the project's content and processes, but for just being here, being you, and being a part of this very weird community. Your absence will be felt for a very long time. --] (]) 07:34, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* A sad, sad loss. ] (] - ] - ]) 07:43, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Very sad to hear the news. ] (]) 07:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I am very sad to hear this. ] (]) 08:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Very sorry to hear this, RIP. ] (]) 08:26, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Very sorry to hear of this. Sarah, you will very much be missed. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 08:30, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*You always knew what Sarah ("SlimVirgin") thought, yet she never left people feeling upset or insulted. One of the most well-known personalities on Misplaced Pages. My thoughts are with all her family and friends, online and in the real world. <span class="nowrap">]]</span> 08:40, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Very sad. My condolences to your family and friends. ] (]) 08:43, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Heartbreaking news. Like many others here, I did not know she was so ill. ] | ] 08:47, 9 May 2021 (UTC). | |||
*Sorry to hear this news. My condolences to family and friends. --] (]) <small>]</small> 08:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*You see these notices once in awhile, and maybe you vaguely might remember the username; or maybe you remember seeing the username at some discussion once. Maybe they were a regular editor at some article or WikiProject you might have come across. Or even a regular at some xfd or other collaboration page. Then there is '''SV'''. Just off the top of my head, I don't think there is much here on Misplaced Pages, including many fundamental concepts which we all tend to take for granted, which she wasn't involved in the discussion of. Regardless of whether one may have agreed or disagreed with her perspective, we are all the poorer here, for this loss. I offer my best wish: Vaya con Dios - May peace be with you.- <b>]</b> 08:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I am so very sorry to hear this news. ] (]) 09:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Our project was better for your presence, Sarah. Rest in peace. ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 09:41, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* This is a very sad day for the project. Sarah was one of those people who always had the best interests of Misplaced Pages and its readers in mind through whatever she did - and she did an awful lot more than most. ] (]) 11:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Sincere condolences. The world is worse without you. ]|] 11:13, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*So sorry to hear the news - Misplaced Pages has lost one of its giants.--]] 12:24, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Such sad news. My condolences to her friends and family. ] (]) 12:57, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Damn that's sad. Sarah was Good People. ''']''' <small>(] - ])</small> 13:26, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*NO! This is horrid news. I had nothing but pleasant communication with Sarah in the past. May her family and friends find comfort. ] (]) 13:32, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Condolences to her family, and to those editors who knew her well. Sarah was truly one of the most important contributors to this project. ]] 13:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
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* flowers, no words yet --] (]) 13:55, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Absolutely one of the best, Condolences to family and the WP Community. A rare bright star. ―] ] 14:01, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* My sincerest condolences. I'm very sad to hear this. Sarah and I both started editing here in 2004. We've known and worked with each other for nearly 17 years. I will miss her. ] ] 14:06, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* My sincere condolences. I was shocked to hear the news. I remember bumping into SlimVirgin online many a times since 2008. RIP. ]] 14:17, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Dear god. Heartbreaking, really. My deepest sympathy to her family and friends. Sarah, you have left a truly distinguished body of work here. Peace eternal. ] ] 14:20, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Rest in peace Sarah. -- ] (]) 14:21, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I had an ]. Only an hour after I made my five-bullet point suggestion she improved the page with it, actively helping to resolve any doubts. Seems I forgot to thank you back then, but I am grateful for that and naturally for everything else you did for Misplaced Pages. Sarah, you will be missed. Rest in peace. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 14:25, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I'm stunned...When SV first asked me if she should apply for adminship, about six months after I'd done so in 2004, I told her that she'd have no problem, but that she might want to not do so, because she cared too much about Misplaced Pages. I worried that she'd burn out and be constantly attacked by fools. I wasn't wrong about the latter; I'm glad I was wrong about the former. Farewell Sarah. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 14:27, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Disbelief and sadness. Sarah's soul shone through her awesome work here. Peace to her family and friends. ---] ] 14:31, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* My condolences to her family. ] (]) 14:45, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Thank you for all your hard work: you left the project in much better shape than you found it. –]] 15:31, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Very sad news, condolences to her family. -- '''] ]''' 15:43, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Damn! Damn! Damn! Sarah was a good mentor to me when I started editing, and was the first Wikipedian to ask me to stand for admin. I will miss her and her good sense and commitment to the project. My condolences to her family and friends. - ] 15:50, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Totally devastated by our loss here.--] (]) 16:16, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* No. No, no, no, no. ] ] 16:32, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I was literally dumbstruck when I saw this. What a devastating and profound loss to this project and community. Sarah was one of the editors I interacted with on a regular basis and took comfort in seeing. I ] Mz7's comments. ] ] 18:19, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* We never interacted much, but I am sad to hear this. Thank you for improving the article on ]. ] (]) 19:12, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Very sorry to hear this. My condolences to her family and friends. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Rest In Peace Slim Virgin. Heaven earned another angel today. ] (]) 19:37, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Just heard about this awful news. As wikipedian and Gender Gap Task Force team member I am so greatful for her work. A big loss for all.--] (]) 20:02, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Oh, this is awful. She was the best of our best. Her work getting ] made and adopted as a core policy -- a task I would have though impossible -- was a greater accomplishment than most any other editor on this great and important and project has ever had. And that's not considering all her other accomplishments. I was very fond of her personally and I'm just in grief. ] (]) 20:05, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* May she rest in peace. My prayers and thoughts are with her family at this time. ] <sup>'']'' | '']''</sup> 20:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* She was an exceedingly dedicated Wikipedian. Sad to hear of her passing. ] (] · ] · ]) 20:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Sad news, an awesome contributor to how Misplaced Pages works and a great teacher. Her influence will continue. . . ], ] 21:12, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Very sad news. She was so active and helpful and accomplished so much. A real loss. Rest in peace. <span style="font-family:Palatino">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 21:35, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I will miss your passion and your perception. The community is much the pooer for your loss. ] (]) 22:01, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Terrible news. Although I'm sorry I didn't really know Sarah, her dedication to the project was undeniable. My deepest sympathy to her family and friends, here and elsewhere. ]] 22:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* What a terrible loss. RIP. ] ] 22:38, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Tears. ] ] 00:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Oh, no. Sarah was wonderful, she did a lot for this project. --] (]) 00:15, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I have always had immense respect for her work; this is very very sad. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] (])</span> 00:30, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Dumbstruck. Rest in peace. ] (]) 00:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
::Very sorry to hear this. We often disagreed, but her passion and commitment to Misplaced Pages's values was beyond question.--] (]) 01:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* So sorry to hear this, her ability and dedication is undeniable. ] is a fitting memorial, the best treatment of the topic (of similar length) that you will find anywhere on the internet. --] (]) 02:03, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* terrible news. saddened to hear this. ] (] '''·''' ]) 02:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Really sorry to receive this news. I do not believe we ever corresponded on here, but, for ''many a year'', I observed your edits, citing of policies etc., and I attempted to tutor myself to a degree from them (even when I was almost fumbling on here to earn acceptance). We ALL have admiration for you, and your contributions, and I hope I speak for many when I say we will continue your work and strive to uphold your standards.--] (]) 02:48, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* R.I.P. You've helped lots of people in this world. 🌎 Thank you. ] (]) 03:37, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* We did not always agree, but Slim was one of the first Wikipedians with whom I interacted, and I always admired her passion and energy. May you be sheltered in the wings of the L-rd, Sarah. -- ] (]) 04:15, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Shocked and saddened to hear this. I can't imagine her not being here any more. We didn't always get on, but we had a lot of mutual respect for each other. I was honoured to have chatted with her on Skype more than once - ] <sup>]</sup> 05:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Heartbreaking news. You had a lot of impact in our community SlimVirgin. May you rest in peace sister. ] (]) 08:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
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* I have admired Sarah’s work from too great a distance. My heartfelt condolences to her family and her many friends. Patrick. ]<sup>]</sup><sup>(become ])</sup> 09:04, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Missed. --] <small>]]</small> 12:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* A very good administrator, whose wise counsel will be sorely missed. ] (]) 12:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* It only a month or two since we had such a lovely chat, and I am so sorry to see this news. I wish we hadn’t had such a falling out a few years ago, but I’m so glad we made up later. Condolences to her family. - SchroCat, editing from ] (]) 12:29, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* That we shall die we know. That our days should be so now drawn out in a lesser light... :( --] (]) 12:37, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Just terrible news. A huge loss to all. ] (]) 12:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Such very sad news regarding someone I truly admired. Sarah was an inspiration to many, including me. RIP, Sarah. --] (]) 15:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* What a terrible loss! When I first started editing Misplaced Pages in 2009, she seemed like a towering figure, and her thoughtful words were a great inspiration to me. ] ] 15:32, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Incredibly sad to learn of her death. Condolences to her family and friends. She will be sorely missed. She was one of the best writers on the project and also had a major impact on several of Misplaced Pages's core policies. Her legacy will live on for many years to come. Sydney Poore/]] 15:34, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Very sad. For me, she was an inspirational editor. ] (]) 15:57, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I'm retuning, briefly, to write this short message. This news is such sad news. Sarah and I had a good relationship and we communicated on email, frequently, the last being around a month ago. This world is all the more better for her work on WP, but is now at a huge loss because of her passing. She really was one of a kind and I will miss her terribly. (Editor formally known as Cassianto) ] (]) 16:05, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Very sad news. You will be sorely missed. – ] (]) 16:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*This is very sad, we and the world lost a talented woman. :-( My sympathies are with the family for their loss.--] | ] 16:17, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* She was guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness. As we all should be. ] (]) 16:19, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Am so sad to hear the news. May her family find strength in these messages of condolence. ] (]) 16:33, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*One of the most important Wikipedians ever – this place won't be the same without her.-- ] (]) 16:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I appreciate SlimVirgin's contributions to Misplaced Pages editorial policy. As it happened, many of the recommendations she made proved to be well aligned with the Misplaced Pages community spirit and have become part of the culture. ]] 17:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*This is devastating to hear, but I hope her family knows the legacy SV leaves behind and how different this place would have been without her. ] ''(]·])'' 20:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I'm really sad to hear this. Sarah was a wonderful force for good at Misplaced Pages, and I simply cannot imagine who can replace the work she did. To her family and friends: we will miss her here. -] (]) 20:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Oh my, what sad news. SV made a such huge contribution to our policies, articles and community that it is hard to think of WP without her. -- ]°] 22:23, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I am very saddened to hear this news. She was a fantastic boon to this project, and, dare I say without sounding too conceited, through it a boon for all humanity. She will be terribly missed. ] (]) 23:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I am genuinely shocked to see this section. We never interacted before, but I have seen you many times at discussions and page histories. Rest in peace, SlimVirgin. You will be missed. ] (]) 00:28, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*One of my few interactions was a rough wild one a long time ago (VNT moment) The big picture is someone who has devoted an immense amount to do an immense amount of good for an immensely good project. Me and more importantly the world thanks you!<b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 00:57, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*This is very sad news. There are so many conversations we won't be able to finish. ] (]) 01:25, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*An editor and administrator whose passion and conviction for everything we ought to stand for was second to none. She was such an integral part of our community. Misplaced Pages will never be the same without SlimVirgin. ] ] 05:36, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* She joined back in 2004 when many were still wholly positive about the internet as a transformative force. Yet Slim knew the project would need structure to prevent decay once the pioneer spirt of the earliest editors began to wane. Hence she created much of our core policy and enduring culture. She may have made a few mistakes, but overall her compassion and intelligence elevated the whole Misplaced Pages and her energy lifted up many editors. Not sure if she was Tzadeykes but she seemed the closest to it of anyone I've met. ] (]) 07:02, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* A very sad day. Misplaced Pages lost its best editor. My condolences to those who knew her in real life. --] (]) 07:49, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Rest in peace. — ] ] 09:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*We were at opposite poles on topics like the I/P conflict, yet her true voice, in correspondence, amiable and acute, breathed integrity as did her scrupulous editing. She was a foundational coign of the edifice we tinker with, a craftswoman of the highest order. We shared mutual friends and a love of classical Greek, and therefore, dear Sarah, as the rose-fingered moon lingers over our maimed landscape, one can only grieve, recalling Sappho: | |||
:::οὐδ' ἴαν δοκίμωμι προσίδοισαν φάος ἀλίω <br/> | |||
:::ἔσσεσθαι σοφίαν πάρθενον εἰς οὐδένα πω χρόνον<br/> | |||
:::τεαύταν. ] (]) 10:05, 11 May 2021 (UTC)<br/> | |||
*Very sad news. Rest in peace. ~ ]] 15:22, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Any time I saw her around, it was making the place better. A good editor and a good person! A lamentable loss. ''']'''×''']''' 16:19, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*So many great editors lost recently, sigh. Sad for this loss. ] (] | ]) 16:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Very sorry to hear this... rest in peace. ] <span style="border:1px solid #ccc;padding:2px">]<b>·</b>]</span> 16:30, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*The project genuinely won't be the same without Slim, she was a force for good here on Misplaced Pages in so many ways. I'm sorry for her family and friends, and also enormously appreciative that Victoria was able to let us know what has happened. ] (]) 18:27, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Sorry to hear this. SlimVirgin will be missed. ], ], ] 18:34, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Oh my gosh, so sorry about this. I didn't have the chance to interact much with her over the years, but I really respected her a lot. This is so sad. ] (]) 01:41, 12 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*😿 we'll miss you dear. ] ] ] 02:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I'm utterly stunned by this news. My condolences to her family and her friends. As a fellow community member, I mourn: Sarah was brilliant and irreplacable, to say the least, and I don't think Misplaced Pages will ever be the same. Requiescat in pace. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em"> — ] (]|])</span> 02:29, 12 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I didn't interact with Sarah at all, really, but she was one of those names that I always saw around. We'll all miss her. –]] 03:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Oh no. I don't remember too many users from my days actively editing, but I remember you. And of all days, today I found a typo and fixed it, after not editing for years. And that led me to check my old watchlist on a whim. Which led me to Jimbo's talk page. And that led me here. I suppose if I hadn't known I wouldn't be sad, but if I hadn't known you would still be gone. I'll hug my loved ones extra tight tonight. ] (]) 05:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*<nowiki>{{sad beyond words}}</nowiki> Good and dedicated 'pedians are rare indeed. They have become even rarer. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">]</span></small>] 14:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*], {{u|Yoninah}}, and now Sarah taken from us within a mere six months? Perhaps COVID had nothing to do with this, but this is truly a plague year if all three of these supremely talented Wikiwomen, women who made not only the project but everyone they worked with better, have succumbed. "'']''"<p>Sarah I will remember in particular for her willingness to not only create articles about such difficult-to-categorize but undeniably notable subjects like ] and ], a challenge I've taken up as well so I can relate, but doing them right and doing them well. All of us would do well to live up to her example. ] (]) 14:17, 12 May 2021 (UTC)</p> | |||
::I forgot to mention that, like Yoninah, she was someone I looked forward to one day meeting in person at some wikigathering, and now I never will ... only perhaps ] ... ] (]) 14:22, 12 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::And I think she should not be allowed to pass without mentioning one more great thing she did: cleaning up ] from the POV/walled-garden mess it had become, one of our worst moments IMO, a task that even Jimbo couldn't get going. ] (]) 21:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I am sorry for your family's loss. My best regards, ] (]) 16:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I came back from a short holiday to hear of this terrible news! What a loss for Misplaced Pages. I remember when I first stumbled across your user page when I was a newbie, and I was amazed at how much of an impact a single user could have on the project. It was very inspiring to me and I honestly give you some credit for influencing me to stick it through and see what I was capable of. When I think about the biggest names on Misplaced Pages, yours is among the first to come mind. Your contributions to some of our most critical content policies and guidelines, dedication to closing the gender gap, and of course the superbly written content you authored yourself – all combined must surely amount to an incalculable impact, one that very few editors have ever or will ever match. While you and I only interacted but so much, just knowing you're not here feels like there's a gaping hole in the Misplaced Pages I know and love. It won't be the same without you, but where we are today is so, so much better because of you. Rest in peace, Sarah <3 <span style="font-family:sans-serif">— <span style="font-weight:bold">] <sup>]</sup></span></span> 22:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* SV was and always will be one of the Titans of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 09:13, 13 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Such tough news. An awesome editor here. SlimVirgin was always polite in disputes a great attribute of hers and for all editors to be inspired by and follow, she also was a great follower, respecter and improver of wikipedia policy. RIP. ] (]) 17:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I'm so sad. SV was someone I looked up to. ] (]) 20:58, 13 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Sarah mentored my early days as a Misplaced Pages editor. She was a gentle, forceful, and inspiring teacher. (SlimVirgin and I were the top editors in developing ] – a very unusual digital ].) – ] (]) 22:01, 13 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Rest in Peace. We will miss you. ] <small>] > ]</small> 01:37, 14 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* So sad to hear this. A huge loss for the community and for the project. ] (]) 01:41, 14 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I'm very sorry to hear about SV's passing. She was a valuable editor and individual on Misplaced Pages, and will be missed by us all. Godspeed. ] (] - ]) 01:50, 14 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I will miss Sarah every day; she was special, brilliant, and crucial to so many of us...I will never forget her; I am devastated at news of her loss...] (]) 01:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I can't find words. I hope her family appreciates the positive impact she had on us, the encyclopedia, and the world. A loss for us all. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— ]]</span> 00:05, 15 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Thank you, for all you did here. You are missed. -- ] (]) 13:46, 15 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Condolences to her families, offline and on. ] (]) 01:38, 16 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
**Thinking more about this, it reminds me of the ] arc of Sword Art Online, where the most powerful online warrior turns out to be that of a terminally ill youth, for whom virtual reality is her only escape from the harrowing and painful real world. In that story, the dying girl succeeds in both making her impression on that online world, and concealing her struggle from the world at large. In the fictional world, that concealment was incomplete, and the online world came to mourn that protagonist's impending passing. In this real world, however, it apepars Sarah's concealment was not breached, and the collective accolade is only posthumos, rather than a sendoff befitting a champion who had made her mark on this virtual world. More's the pity. ] (]) 05:34, 1 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Vale, Sarah. You will be missed. It was always a pleasure to interact with you and I can only imaging the joy you brought to the people around you. Rest in peace, ] (]) 04:42, 16 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* This is sad news indeed, so many have been lost this year. May her brightness shine alongside all the stars in the sky. ] (]) 21:12, 16 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* To the editor whose picture you should see when you look up the idiom '']'' in the encyclopedia: thank you for your contributions to the community. You may never become a household name, but you have affected the lives of hundreds of millions of people with your actions, first with the fledgling policies that became part of the ] that underpin our success, and second with your writing and community work on gender equality and coverage of the Holocaust. — ] (''']''') 14:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*An immense loss. My condolences to family and friends. ''']] (])''' 00:25, 21 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*There's a missing piece of the encyclopedia that now can never be filled. You'll be missed, SV, and my thoughts are with your family and friends. ] (]) 03:05, 21 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Only just heard. Will be remembered as a fearless editor, completely unafraid to take on the most controversial of topics. ] ] 21:44, 21 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* For once bad news didn’t travel, I’ve only just heard. This is terrible news; I’ve always though of SV as one of my Wiki-Friends. The project is diminished by her absence. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">]</span> ] 21:13, 24 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Just came to know about this dreadful news. I daresay I'm at a loss for words. RIP. '']]'' 04:51, 25 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Oh no. I just learned about SV's death. This is awful news. Very few editors had such a precise grasp of the nuances of policy. Her loss will be especially felt in issues relating to paid editing and ], as she was vigilant in policing that guideline and preventing its weakening and undermining. Rest assured that she will ''not'' be replaced. The sad fact is that we rely upon not a million or so volunteers but, in certain areas, just a handful, sometimes one or two in the most crucial ones. R.I.P. ] (]) 13:42, 25 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Rest in Peace Sarah, I hope your friends and family on and off wiki can take some comfort from the legacy you have left us here in this project. '']]<span style="color:#CC5500">Chequers</span>'' 13:27, 26 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*What sad news. You'll be sorely missed. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 14:32, 26 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Although I never actually interacted with Sarah, I regularly saw her username on RTRC while I was patroling recent changes. I's sad that I will no longer see this name in the stream of edits. You will be missed. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 01:06, 27 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Shocked to hear this. A great loss to us, a greater loss to her friends and family, to whom my heartfelt condolences – should any of them happen to read this. ] (]) 10:15, 27 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I saw people refer to this but didn't know it was true until I came to her user page. Just gutted. SlimVirgin was a pillar of the community from the early days and we are not only losing a great person, editor and admin but part of the community memory that she held. A loss on so many levels. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:45, 27 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Shocking and sad. Razor sharp in discussions but always, always polite, you will be sorely missed by the project. My condolences to your family and friends, both in RL as well as here.--] <small>(])</small> 00:24, 28 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Just learned of it through {{u|Serial Number 54129}}'s talk page memorial for her. My deepest condolences to family and friends, and all the other editors here who worked closely with her. She'll certainly be missed. ] ] 17:40, 28 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Wow. I didn't always agree with her, but had huge respect for her. Not just as a person, but as someone who cared so much about Misplaced Pages. She will be greatly missed. ] (]) 04:10, 29 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Wishing condolences to those who were close to her. ] (]) 22:52, 29 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Sorry to hear this (only just found out) ] (]) 19:14, 31 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Thank you for your dedication and commitment to improving Misplaced Pages. You spent countless hours bettering the project and will be missed. May you rest in peace, ]<sup>]</sup> 21:40, 31 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Can't believe she's gone, rest in peace. ] (]) 22:19, 2 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I'm sorry to hear this. I actually knew her way back when (long before Misplaced Pages). She was a force of nature even then, and while I didn't have much personal contact with her, I do remember at least one instance in which she was very kind and thoughtful to me. RIP --] (] • ]) 20:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Late to the party, I have only just read of SlimVirgin's death. (That is how I have always known Sarah, so to me it's the natural way to refer to her.) There is probably not much I can say that hasn't been said before, but I will just say that I regarded her as one of the best editors and one of the best administrators we had. The news has saddened me deeply. ] (]) 23:40, 9 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
* My deepest sorrow and condolences to family, friends, and fellow Wikipedians at the passing of our SlimVirgin. She has been an admired partner on this continuing experiment. Misplaced Pages is the fine, informative, and helpful website it is due to her tireless work. I celebrate her and her lasting legacy on this website. When we encounter her work we will still feel her life and vitality. --] (]) 20:06, 10 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
* My condolences to her loved ones. <sup>Thanks,</sup>] ] 16:34, 11 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*"Slim" was the best of the best here at Misplaced Pages and it was quite a jolt for me that she has passed. I envy the people that knew her in her in her life away from here. I felt almost sisterly towards her. I felt as though she was my Misplaced Pages sister and I long for her as if she were my sister. I suppose I'm sounding rather dramatic and that's why I've put off writing here for so long... hoping not too sound too syrupy, I guess. I hope that her family and friends tell their children about her accomplishments here. We talk about how the great politicians of the day wrote our American Constitution, well Slim helped write our Misplaced Pages Constitution and continued to improve it and work on its contents tirelessly. I knew her mostly for her work on the under-priviledged, including women and people of color. She had a great mind and a big heart. I miss her. ] (]) 00:51, 12 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I put off writing here for so long because I really didn’t want to believe it was true. I still don’t want to. Writing this at all is very hard. Sarah is very missed. ] <sup>]</sup> 11:36, 12 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*This is very sad news. I had seen her around wikipedia for such a long time. My condolences to her family and friends.''']''' <sub>]</sub> 20:18, 14 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I echo what has been said by Risker, Mz7, Zaereth, among many others. An immeasurable loss to the project and someone gone far too soon. May she rest in peace and what else Zaereth said in closing below. --] <sup>]</sup> 06:05, 16 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*You continue to be an inspiration. Thank you for your contributions. ]<sup>]/]</sup> 13:01, 16 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*My condolences to her family and friends in real life and here. Really sucks to hear a member of Misplaced Pages passing away but her efforts will not be forgotten... ] (]) 05:11, 17 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I've only just read... we interacted briefly, you were a name I remembered. A loss for words. - ] <sup>]</sup> 23:55, 21 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I too just discovered this, and am shocked, saddened and horrified. A tremendous loss for our project, needless to say. More eloquent voices than mine have already spoken regarding her many fine qualites, so I'll merely add a blessing for her spirit, and to all who loved her... RIP, Sarah. ] (]) 09:33, 22 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*She and I, a long time ago, used to have at each other with sharpened ]es... I am profoundly shocked and saddened, regardless. ] (]) 09:39, 22 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Really sorry to hear about this. As a young editor, I often used to see Sarah around - I highly commend her for her work on articles relating to topics so many are reluctant to discuss or research. Rest in peace. ]<sup>]</sup> 02:29, 23 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Only just learnt of this. Very sad to hear. A great and knowledgable contributor, and a strong and helpful person. My heartfelt condolences to her family. ] (]) 21:30, 27 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I regret to be adding my condolensces so late after the fact, having been largely absent from the project by necesity in recent months. I feel the need to say that, because--incidental though that delay is--it is at odds with the significance I feel that the loss of Sarah constitutes for our project and our community. Sarah and I did share some areas of interest on the project, both in article and policy spaces, but we interacted directly only on a handful of occasions. But I had enough opportunity to observe her conduct and contributions (as an editor and a communicator) to walk away understanding the high regard in which she was held by the community generally. Beyond that, the evidence of her wisdom is also to be found in the structures which she played a significant (indeed, often central) role in building for this, our engine of understanding; in terms of those who made the encyclopedia what it is today, it may be no exagerration to say that we have never before lost a contributor of greater relevance than Sarah, or to say that the world is significantly poorer for this loss. But then, we are also the richer for the dedication this woman chose to invest in the notion that knowledge, and the sharing of it, is a universal right. ''] ]'' 02:06, 28 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I always saw you as one of the guardians of the project. But I had no idea just how profound, how wide-ranging, your contributions were. You will be remembered, and missed. My condolences to friends and family. '''] ]''' 13:27, 28 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I realized that I hadn't commented here yet. SlimVirgin's positive impact on Misplaced Pages was such that her loss leaves areas where she worked vulnerable to tendentious editing, also resulting in increased activity on noticeboards. These events remind us of this sad loss. I didn't know Sarah much and only through Misplaced Pages, but I also remember of various wise talk page posts. Farewell SV, —]] – 14:44, 28 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Like some others here, I had not learnt of this sad news until now. My condolences to her friends and family. She will be missed around here. RIP. ] (]) 19:52, 28 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I've only just seen this awful news in ''The Signpost''. Sarah was one of the very first users I encountered after registering my account. She gave me some helpful guidance, which I really appreciated. Though we didn't interact much beyond that, I always admired her and looked to her work as a good example through the years. I still watch that first article we crossed paths on. What a terrible loss. <span style="font-family:Serifa">]]</span> 20:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*This is heartbreaking. I send my sincerest condolences to her family. I’m glad they knew of her Misplaced Pages activity, which was so enormously accomplished. The world is lucky she shared her time this way. ] (]) 16:49, 29 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Pondered for a long time what to write here. I wasn't fortunate to know Sarah or work with her but I do see and feel her impact on a daily basis. For me it feels like such a loss and such a void that no one can fill. It's like a room in a house you never go into because the pain is too great. I can not imagine how those who worked closely with her feel or even her family who lived with her every day. Being so close gave them the opportunity to hear and experience her Song and it is forever part of them but they are also most hurt by her loss because they have heard a beautiful melody day after day only to have it taken away and only the memory of it, though a part of them, is what is left. Sarah, you are cherished, you are missed, you are loved by so many. The impact of your life is still with us and will be forever, sweet, <span style="color:#FF0000">R</span><span style="color:#FFA500">A</span><span style="color:#FFFF00">I</span><span style="color:#00FF00">N</span><span style="color:#0000ff">B</span><span style="color:#4B0082">O</span><span style="color:#800080">W</span> in the sky. --]] 21:04, 29 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I just learned about this very sad and heartbreaking loss. My condolences to her family. Sarah was a treasure, and will be greatly missed. Rest peacefully, my WikiFriend. ] ] ] 17:12, 1 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
*What an extraordinarily impressive body of work. Gives me pause to reflect on the higher values that can be achieved on TheProject and to aspire to those heights. Thankyou Sarah.-<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 05:03, 2 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
*This is terrible. I was hoping it was not true. So upsetting. <small>] <small><sup>Need help? ''']'''</sup></small></small> 05:05, 2 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I regret that I only learned of Sarah's passing now. To repeat what others have written, she will be missed. -- ] (]) 09:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Sarah's was indeed a "household name" for Wikipedians, but where I really came to know her work was in the area of WWII and the Holocaust. She proved to be a truly excellent editor - thorough, accurate, opinionated in ways that kept the project honest - and one of a few whose judgment I trusted implicitly. My condolences to her family and friends. ] (]) 18:41, 8 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Woooow. I'm utterly shocked to hear this sad news of your passing! We haven't talked for years, but you made quite an impact on my life and we even went through some difficult times together. I'm really sad you're gone. You made your mark on this world, my friend, and you have my love and respect forever. --] 14:07, 14 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Very sad. I was privileged to have interacted with Sarah. --] (]) 05:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
* It's always sad to learn about the death of a fellow Wikipedian. Rest in peace. ''']''' (]) 12:44, 3 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Sarah was a fantastic editor who done wonders with articles, She will be remembered and missed, RIP, My sincere condolences to friends and family, –]<sup>]</sup> 12:27, 7 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Did not ever directly interact with SlimVirgin that I can recall, but I saw her contributions in discussions, and around other places on Misplaced Pages. I know she will be missed. My condolences to those that knew her well. ] (]) 18:52, 7 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I am not very active on here anymore, so I did not know about this until earlier tonight. Incredibly sad, may she rest in peace. A true titan of Misplaced Pages history who, whenever she graced my watchlist, always seemed like she was honoring me by merely doing so. ] (]) 02:57, 28 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
* We all would've come across Sarah sometime or the other while editing Wiki articles. Her presence can be felt everywhere. I see her as a trailblazer in many of the articles I edit. Going to miss her badly, indeed. Farewell, dear friend. ] (]) 04:34, 14 September 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Rest in peace, Sarah. We'll deeply miss you. {{smiley|cry}}{{smiley|cry}}{{smiley|cry}} ] ] <sup>(] | ])</sup> 18:37, 21 October 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Wow, I am speechless that I just now discovered this. Sarah and I got along very well. This saddens me greatly. My condolences, and my apologies for it being so late. :-(—] <span style="font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 15:38, 22 November 2021 (UTC) | |||
* A great loss to everyone. She was a giant! She was very supportive! What a wonderful person. She will be sorely missed. Rest in peace, from your friend, ] (]) 08:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC) | |||
* Did not get a chance to say anything when this happened ... but I knew about it. Sarah was one of the first editors I interacted with when I started editing (more frequently) in 2012. I wish I could recall the interaction, but whatever it was, it was one of the many interactions I had on Misplaced Pages that convinced me to stick around and keep editing, no matter what conflicts may arise on Misplaced Pages between the community and me. It may not have been much interaction, but it was enough to make me feel welcome and keep on editing. The loss of Sarah is a big blow to the project, and she is missed. ] (]) 19:10, 3 February 2022 (UTC) | |||
== Follow-up == | |||
:I agree that it's unacceptable, and I'm thinking about raising it somewhere. I'm not yet sure where, or what information to include. Apparently the BP rep went through OTRS and someone there (Ocaasi) referred the rep to Rangoon, even though both Ocaasi and Rangoon had worked together on the article before, and Rangoon's edits there and elsewhere are somewhat contentious. So that referral seems problematic to me, but I haven't read all the archives, and I feel I should do that before I can comment further. But anyway, bottom line: these companies should not be writing their own articles (directly or by proxy), and if they are, we should signal that to the reader with a box at the top of the article. (I'm not suggesting anyone should create such a box; I'm just thinking out loud that for some articles it might be the only ethical way forward.) ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 23:57, 17 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
If this is the wrong time or place to post this, feel free to remove. | |||
::Just to clarify a point, Arturo at BP posted on the article talk page and the COI noticeboard asking for help; as far as I know it did not go through OTRS. I have worked with Rangoon before; it was in the midst of the Deepwater Horizon spill and we significantly reorganized a pretty messy article amidst a lot of incoming media coverage. I believe the coverage was very fair, perhaps even overemphasizing the recent disaster. The only changes we made together involved how to structure the litany of such incidents in the company's past. I think we improved that structure. I haven't been following Arturo's work with Rangoon, I just know that he's doing it as transparently as one could and going through the talk pages as we've suggested such editors should. Slim we do have a ] if you think that's appropriate. (I haven't had a chance to look at your idea yet but am glad you posted it.) Cheers, ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 01:12, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Work is needed on writing the ]. That should later be used in the Signpost. | |||
*Sarah worked on many topics including several she found draining due to the content. One she was particularly proud of was ] and I'm hoping a few editors will add that to their watchlists because it easily degrades with passing edits. | |||
] (]) 07:33, 9 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I would love to see a writeup about Sarah's work on making the BLP policy happen. There has been a meme in the media that BLP was the Foundation's idea rather than the English Misplaced Pages's community initiative. I think it would be fitting to set that record straight. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 16:53, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::Okay, thanks. I understood from one of your posts that, via OTRS, you had referred BP to Rangoon11. You wrote: "Typically for OTRS requests I first investigate the claims myself and see if it's something minor I can handle. If it involves anything complex or controversial I'll look for an active, non-POV pushing editor at the article's talk page/history whom I respect to put the person in touch with. At BP that person was Rangoon11 ..." | |||
*:{{u|Clayoquot}}, I agree. This core policy is so important to WP's credibility as a biographical source. I would like to know more about the role of Sarah, and others, in crafting this policy. <b>] ]</b> 19:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*Sarah has 12 Featured Articles that should not be overlooked.--] (]) 23:16, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::As for the box, it's worse than a connected contributor. It's BP writing the article on BP. That should never happen, but it's being facilitated by editors who are posting BP's drafts word-for-word into the article (e.g. ). Silver seren has now advised the BP rep to "ignore them," apparently referring to Wikipedians who are objecting, and to answer only Silver seren's questions. So really it could not be more problematic. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
**Her work on ] set a high bar for all of us. ] (]) 01:52, 14 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::Embarassingly, Slim, for my error and how unbelieveable it may sound to correct it, the Arturo to Rangoon handoff I alluded to didn't happen through OTRS, on Wiki, or off it. I admit I was under a bit of pressure with your questioning and mixed up the particulars. While I have led representatives to active talk page editors in the past, and would have thought to do the same in this case, it's not what happened. Looking through the history, to my knowledge, Arturo contacted Rangoon directly ] and used the COI noticeboard ]. Rangoon replied ]. I checked my talk page and email history and see I hadn't spoken with Arturo until this past month when I asked him through email for an interview about his experiencing working on the BP article. That said, I likely would have trusted Rangoon's judgement and hadn't seen any behavior from him before that was concerning, so in this case I mistook the spirit of your question for the details. Checking the OTRS archives could probably confirm we hadn't heard from Arturo (at least I hadn't). My apologies for that weird confusion; it might have made the situation sound worse than it was. Although, regardless of how Arturo found Rangoon, he did, and the article draft that came out of that process is still concerning to you, so I don't think these details ultimately have any effect on the current discussion. Also note that this has gone through Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, so it's hand a good run of ]. | |||
*I'm not sure if this is germane to the conversation, but seeing as we're discussing her obituary, I wanted to mention a brief exchange I had with someone on Reddit five years ago. There was a rumour at the time that SlimVirgin's health was in decline, and I truly hoped that it wasn't true. It's just so hard to wrap my head around an English Misplaced Pages without her. I don't know if I'll ever really get used to it. Her passion was uniquely inspiring, both for me and undoubtedly many others. ] ] 06:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
*I've done some basic workup at ] which others can freely edit and improve. I'll also leave a link at the Deceased Wikipedians page. ] (]) 01:36, 13 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Impact == | |||
::::We also have ]. "Use this tag to indicate that an article is biased or has other serious problems as a direct result of the editing done by the subject of the article or a person with a close connection to the subject (e.g., professional public relations staff). Do not use this tag unless there are significant or substantial problems with the article's neutrality as a result of the contributor's involvement. Like the other pov tags, this tag is not meant to be a badge of shame. Do not use this tag if you can quickly solve the problem, e.g., by removing peacocking and puffery or by reverting the blanking of well-sourced criticism. Like the other neutrality-related tags, this tag may be removed by any editor after the problem is resolved, if the problem is not explained on the article's talk page, and/or if no current attempts to resolve the problem can be found." | |||
{{user QAIbox | |||
| title = Impact | |||
| image = Cherry crashing into primordial Earth2.png | |||
| image_upright = 0.9 | |||
| bold = Thank you for ]<br />in helping persons | |||
| normal = by ],<br /> ],<br /> ]<br /> and {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case|1008531357|1008529967|defending them}}! | |||
}} | |||
I wish I had told you, ]. I wish the arbs had listened to you. We miss you. None of us can replace you alone, but we all should do what we can to keep your spirit in this place. --] (]) 12:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
Four years ago, you were recipient no. ] of Precious, a prize of QAI! I wasn't the first one to award you that, the most beautiful edition - in 2007 - was by ], with ]: | |||
::::I think "ignore them" is never wise advice. We're all accountable to critics and it's part of consensus to address those concerns. I still think we're going to have to figure out when it's appropriate to object merely for a process violation rather than for a content objection. "The company wrote it" is a persuasive but not sufficient criticism if the draft is neutral and well-sourced and has been through review from any editors at the talk page who want to comment. This strikes me as a typical dispute...the article should be more or less frozen while discussion continues and editors bring more thoughts, sources, and suggestions to the talk page. | |||
<div style="font-family: Trebuchet MS, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; text-align: center;"><poem> | |||
I thank thee, friend, for the beautiful thought | |||
That in words well chosen thou gavest to me, | |||
Deep in the life of my soul it has wrought | |||
With its own rare essence to ever imbue me ... | |||
Yea, it shall always abide with me | |||
::::I suppose there's a related ] question one could ask. Is the burden on the corporate representative to ''prove'' their draft is neutral, or on the talk page critics who question its bias to counter with opposing sources? I don't think we have clear guidance on that, but it might be useful. ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 02:18, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
As a part of my immortality; | |||
For a beautiful thought is a thing divine, | |||
So I thank thee, oh, friend, for this gift of thine!</poem> | |||
'']'' | |||
</div>--] (]) 07:07, 16 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
{{clear}} | |||
== Flowers == | |||
:::::Okay, thanks for explaining that, and no worries if you made a mistake. I'm glad it was a mistake; I was starting to get concerned about OTRS being used in that way. I can't agree with you about Rangoon11, though; his editing at these articles is problematic. I won't say more, because I don't like to see editors being criticized on user talk pages without being invited to take part, but I don't particularly want that discussion here. | |||
{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;" | |||
:::::As for BURDEN, articles have to reflect the body of literature that's out there. For an article like BP, that involves a ton of reading. Very few of these editors are in a position to say whether BP's drafts reflect that body of literature, because they're not familiar with it themselves; there are some knowledgeable people on the talk page, but they're not the ones adding BP's drafts (that I have seen). To say "we should add BP's text unless we find mistakes in it," is to completely misunderstand what neutrality means on Misplaced Pages. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 02:40, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ] | |||
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''Flowers''' | |||
|- | |||
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | She was a wonderful Wikipedian. I’ve seen her name in a bunch of edit summaries, and I thought... wow, she’s good. I wish I’d gotten the chance to work with her. ] 21:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
|} | |||
== Goodbye Sarah... == | |||
::::::(Yes, to be fair, I notified Rangoon on his talk page of our discussion last week). I always interpreted his approach as lacking an agenda to either criticize or promote corporations; I appreciated how he wanted to give controversies attention but not at the exclusion of other aspects of the company. I still think that's a fair approach, but of course disagreements about ] are challenging and easy to interpret differently, even moreso when a COI editor is involved. If this was not a COI editor situation, we would demand that someone ''demonstrate'' proper weight by citing more and better sources. You're saying that's not feasible here, so it's not going to be simple to resolve. | |||
This is a really sad year for Misplaced Pages, losing not one but two of its top editors, not by their edit count but by the quality of their work and their incredible integrity as human beings. First, we lost Flyer22, and now this. This is a huge blow to the project, but that pales in comparison to the tragic loss of such a great and wonderful person, who was so incredibly smart and talented. | |||
::::::I think I understand why you want to exclude corporate representatives from the drafting process as such, but what mechanism would you suggest that would still allow one to give input? Are you saying they shouldn't participate on talk pages either, or yes but not with full drafts? What's the process look like instead? And if we're very strongly discouraging direct editing, then is not responding to talk page suggestions defensible or reasonable? If we don't respond to talk pages are we going to nudge folks back underground to edit in secret? I'm not sure I see the alternative yet, except for the kind of robust debate that's going on right now out in the open. (Oh yes, you posted an idea on my talk page. I'll get to that this week when I can give it some time. Win-win would be great if you have found one). ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 03:16, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
I never really had much of an opportunity to interact with Sarah. I think we may have spoken to each other once or twice in all the years I've been here. I doubt she ever knew how much I have always admired and respected her, or how much of an influence she had on me, especially back when I first started here. In all of Misplaced Pages, there are a handful of people who stand out among the crowd, and Sarah was a shining star above the masses. From the moment I crossed paths with her, I knew immediately, this was someone special. Perhaps it was because she shared my interest in quality, encyclopedic writing, or her love of writing in general, that first peaked my interest, but it was her brilliance, conviction, and steadfast integrity that I ultimately came to admire. She was someone you could really look up to. | |||
:::::::EDIT CONFLICT ::::::Thanks so much SlimVirgin, it is good to see that somebody understands the situation. When I read Ocassi's post I almost could've wept. Why on earth should the paid editor's rewrite be held superior to what we've been able to put together, imperfect though it may be, to the point that we need to spend endless hours picking '''his''' version apart? Furthermore, there is a lot more than just the facts of what is written, it is how the facts are presented when just one word or lack of it can completely change the tone of what is being presented. Ect. ] (]) 03:27, 18 March 2013 (UTC) Occasi's more recent post leaves me at a loss for words... And of course the great trust that s/he puts in Rangoon is just mind boggling. ] (]) 03:27, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{Outdent}}Sorry to disappoint you Gandydancer, I can only speak from the direct interaction I've had with an editor, which in this case was quite positive. I'm not Rangoon's minder and haven't followed his every move; for example, I missed the entire DRN thread which was not exactly inspiring on any front). I think it's sufficient to say that this article would be controversial ''regardless'' of Arturo's involvement and editors working on it will just have to continue to slog through sources and drafts. I don't see an easy way through it. I also don't believe Rangoon has any affiliation with BP, so Arturo's presence there appears to just be aggravating an issue that was already present. | |||
I am especially grateful for her work on core policies, and especially BLP policy; that extremely important and vital policy that protects both our readers and our subjects from very real harm. I've spent most of my time here helping to explain and enforce that policy, and am very thankful to Sarah for recognizing the importance of such a policy very early on. We will always be in your debt, not just us editors and writers, but our subjects, readers, and the world as well. | |||
Slim, if we can use BP as a case study I'd like to continue to try and draw out best practices (or practices to avoid) for these kinds of situations. I don't know what they are, frankly, I just know I generally prefer corporate representatives acting transparently rather than in secret. Cheers, ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 04:21, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
I never knew until this year that I could be affected so deeply by the loss of someone whom I never met in person, nor ever really knew outside of her work on Misplaced Pages. My deepest condolences go out to her family and friends. To Sarah, may whatever god or spirit or chi you believe in carry you on to something better. The force will be with you, always. ] (]) 20:50, 11 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
:Slim Virgin, I did go back and look at BPs edit/talk record and I found that Ocaasi did work extensively with Rangoon on the BP article. It does concern me that at Ocaasi's final edit on Jan 6, 2011, the lead included this info on the BP spill incident, or more accurately did not include any information on the spill, the worst environmental disaster on record in the US other than the Dust Bowl: ''BP's track record of corporate social responsibility has been mixed. The company has been involved in a number of major environmental and safety incidents and received criticism for its political influence.'' It is my opinion that Osaasi is either intentionally biased or easily misled and naive. I believe the latter. Generally one should never go into a discussion of other editor's motives, etc., but I did note that editor Ocaasi has suggested that your view fringes on "conspiracy", so it seems to me to be appropriate. ] (]) 14:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Please keep in mind the context of that period. We had an article on BP, the hundred year old company, which was being absolutely deluged with information about Deepwater Horizon. Keeping that incident treated with appropriate scale and not becoming a news article on the single (enormous) disaster was an intentional attempt to remain balanced and neutral. The article was also a mess, and I simply organized the history of controversies into Safety, Political, and Environmental categories for more easy reading. I think you're excluding the possibility that I may just have a different informed opinion on the matter... I may be naive or misled here, I accept that's a possibility, but the more likely explanation is that I stopped working at the BP article once the Deep Water Horizon incident had slowed from the news and have not followed the day to day debates at the article over the past year. My renewed interest in the BP article came about because we have a transparent corporate representative working on it through talk page suggestions; that's a model I'm interested in and want to see how it's working. ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 17:15, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Sarah-SV prize? == | |||
::Also, for reference, when I started editing this article in 2010, I was still using an IP. Here is the I made. You can see at this time the lead had only two paragraphs, one of which was on Deepwater Horizon. This edit the political, environmental and safety record. By the time of my last edit, the version mentioned the mixed safety/environmental/political record but also noted BP's pro-environment efforts. I think that version could use more detail on the scale of the disasters that have happened. I haven't been involved at BP since then, almost 2 years ago. ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 17:34, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
Sarah was so active in and supportive of gender equity that it seems fitting for one of the WP groups in that field to consider awarding an annual or biennial prize in her memory for the best contribution to gender equity on the site. ] ] 08:26, 12 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
::Gandydancer, maybe I can shift this conversation towards more productive territory, noting that the battleground mentality percolating around this article isn't very productive. It's clear that you don't like or trust the work of corporate representatives, which is a reasonable and defensible position. However we're basically prohibiting such folks from directly editing and best practice at this point is direct them to talk pages to make suggestions, propose sources, and offer drafts, advising they do so with full disclosure. Arturo did disclose his COI in his username, at the article talk page, and at the COI noticeboard. How else do you think we can make this process useful and effective? It seems to me that the added scrutiny and discussion going on at the article is a good thing, despite its contentiousness. Do you have suggestions on how it could be made/done better? ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 19:11, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Perhaps we could set up a Gofundme or something to create a cash prize in her name? I'd be willing to donate for certain. ] (]) 04:12, 29 May 2021 (UTC) | |||
* I'd put in a few dollars. Frankly it would be nice to have something to which to donate in support of the project other than the Foundation, which has gotten plenty. ] ] 05:42, 1 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
:{{u|Tony1}}, {{u|Hobit}}, {{u|BD2412}}, cash prizes tend to result in editors with questionable motives in my experience. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 08:33, 1 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
::Alexis, I'd donate, too. But I wasn't necessarily suggesting a cash prize, which brings problems (large amount invested, dividends pay for the prize, is usual for ''in perpetuo'' prizes; seems unlikely). Why not replace cash with prestige: so members of the ], call for nominations and discuss and create a shortlist, which goes to, say, the chair of the WMF board. The chair makes the announcement. You never know, the current chair and the rest of the board might think that's a good way to further some of the Foundation's key aims. It would need brief selection criteria and a timeline. And if it works, I'd be in favour of later widening the scope to include other Wikipedias. Could be annual, or every two years? ] ] 12:20, 1 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::{{u|Tony1}}, I think it would be better to aim for publication in the ] for starters. Possibly a custom barnstar? — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 14:12, 1 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::I wanted something special in memory of Sarah, equal to her special role in the evolution of WP. And something with more grunt than a mere barnstar. ] ] 14:14, 1 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::{{u|Tony1}}, I get what you mean, but it may have a better chance of happening if you learn to walk before you run. Though if you believe you can run right away, go for it. Also the barnstar suggestion was just as an addition, not a replacement. Maybe as a way to nominate? — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 18:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::* Can't WMF fund it under a rapid grant? --] (]) 20:28, 12 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::::*What, in perpetuo? I'd rather not mix money into it, unless it's going to be a one-off. And I'd prefer our incentives toward gender equity to be long term. ] ] 02:34, 13 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
== ''The Signpost'': 27 June 2021 == | |||
:::Ocaasi, you talk about "full disclosure," but that BP is writing the article is being hidden from the readers, arguably the only people who matter. Editors are inserting BP's words into the text (extensively) without quotation marks and without in-text attribution. BP is choosing what to highlight, choosing the sources, and choosing the words and tone. That really has to stop. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 19:38, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2021-06-27}} </div><!--Volume 17, Issue 5--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 20:16, 27 June 2021 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
== Chelsea Manning == | |||
Ocaasi, yes you are correct, I have great concerns regarding paid editors. They are professional writers and they know very well how to spin information. I am dealing with that right now in the section that deals with the 2006 North Slope Alaskan spill. Arturo and BP supporters want to say "BP admitted..." while I want to phrase it "The U.S. Department of Justice disclosed that BP...". You see the difference? As for Arturo, I have nothing negative to say about him. He was only doing his job and as far as I know was open and honest in his work. My problem is a concern that more recently he has gone to WP:COIN and asked for assist which seems to have brought a new sheriff to town, if you will, and and the new sheriff has given a promise to Arturo that he can round up a posse to post his drafts if need be, so not to worry. | |||
Thank you. I wanted to do it....but was nervous about my own issues. Mahalo and aloha to you. | |||
Ocassi, you seem to think that there are plenty of editors at the BP article to have a "robust discussion", I think were your words, but that is not the case. A corporate article is not any fun at all. Who would really want to spend hour after hour attempting to keep a corporate article from becoming nothing more that a corporate webpage filled with glowing praise? Right now at BP there is only Binksternet and I. Editor Petrarchan was with us and she did a lot of work--we both worked at the BP spill article as well and one day she just got totally fed up and left. If you happened to look at the Chevron article that I mentioned above, only two of us--I am not familiar with the other editor--objected to what I called a blatant attempt to spin the information re that company's ongoing lawsuit. He threw out all of the secondary sources and substituted a legal document that would make sense to no one. I had been watching Chevron and he had been posting his drafts but no one had responded so he went ahead and posted them in the article--they were all corporate stuff and I had no objections. But in the case of the law suit, if I and one other editor had not shown up, he would have done the same with that draft as well. In the case of ''that'' paid editor, I don't think I should be forced to work with him because I consider him to be nothing more than a goddamn crook. | |||
OK...I mentioned {{U|Viriditas}} (and then took it out)....holy crap...he's not...I am so embarrassed, thrilled and sad at the same time right now. Really not sure how to process this.--] (]) 12:44, 1 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
Ocassi, I read some of your posts on your talk page--I'm not done yet--and it is my impression that you mean well but you really are out of touch with the reality of this situation. That's why I was so grateful when someone (Slim Virgin) came along that finally seemed to understand how perilous and urgent this situation really is. Over the years I have complained but my experience has pretty much been a you can like it or lump it--it's here to stay. | |||
== I miss you == | |||
As for improving the situation, it seems that paid editing has started a whole cottage industry to spring up out there. That can't be good. And then when they arrive at our doors it seems that we all but have ambassadors of good will in place to greet them and show them around and help them out and so on... When Arturo posted at COIN editors responded with good cheer, and "let me know if you need anything!", etc. One even gave him a wikilove message. Even still, paid editors ''may'' have a place--if I were a corporation I'd want a fair shake too. But now that they are rewriting whole sections of their articles and Misplaced Pages has formed a group of editors that jump from one article to another to insert their copy into articles, that is not the way to keep our 'pedia from, as I think Slim Virgin said, nothing more than a free advertisement for their wares. ] (]) 21:25, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
Sarah, I miss your kind emails and thoughtful ways. I wish I could have said goodbye. Your loving friend, Ta bu shi da yu - Chris Sherlock. - ] (]) 08:34, 6 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
:I'm sure most of you already know that I have the greatest sympathy for the position of Slim and Gandydancer here. I'm afraid that this might just be a case where the letter of the rules are being followed but not the spirit. BP obviously needs to back off on inserting its interpretations and addressing matters of weight, which require independent judgement. | |||
:On days like today, I wish I could email you. I cannot tell you how I miss you. - ] (]) 04:29, 11 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
:But BP should also know that this type of editing just cannot possibly work, either for them or Misplaced Pages. Say PBS and other national news organizations find out what they are trying to do here - they will be vilified in the press and get no PR benefit at all from this, and Misplaced Pages will be viewed as just another corporate spam mirror. | |||
::I just rescued some references for an article you started, ]. Evidence of you is everywhere, and you won't be forgotten. - ] (]) 08:51, 5 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
:In short, if this is not a matter of rules being broken, then we need to change the rules. The discussion should likely be at ], where I'll take it (in a few hours from now) unless somebody has a better place for the discussion. ]<sub>(<font color="cc6600">]</font>)</sub> 23:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Remembering Sarah == | |||
::I agree, and it has left me wondering about BP's position in all this. There are news organizations that would have a field day with it, and both BP and Misplaced Pages would end up looking terrible. I'm reluctant to stress this too much on the talk page in case anyone interprets it as a threat to go to the media, but it does make me wonder who within BP knows that this is going on. Smallbones, I would be very grateful if you would raise it at COI. I've been thinking about where and when to raise it myself, and how to phrase it because it has several arms and legs. If you would get the ball rolling, that would be great. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 23:09, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
Dear colleagues,<br> | |||
:::The same thing was done, as I have said, at Chevron and nobody seems at all concerned. Cracker Barrel was a total rewrite by a paid editor as well and they have not been mentioned--only BP. I also know of one other article that was a total rewrite by a paid editor. Silverseren is well aware of this and yet I note that he is apparently one of those that others go to for advice and opinions about paid editing. OrangeMike is aware of it too. Frankly it is hard for me to understand why this has been going on for so long if there is a problem. To then have Slim Virgin speak out at the BP article as though those of us that approved of Arturo's drafts are to be forgiven because we "haven't thought it through" seems a bit condesending...and irritating. ] (]) 23:58, 18 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
I created a generic userbox to commemorate our absent Wikifriends, and I keep a copy for Sarah at my user page: | |||
{{User:Pdebee/UBX/RemembersAbsentFriend|SlimVirgin}} | |||
{{clear}} | |||
To add this userbox to your user page, just copy/paste:<br /> | |||
<code><nowiki>{{User:Pdebee/UBX/RemembersAbsentFriend|SlimVirgin}}</nowiki></code> | |||
<br> | |||
With kind regards;<br> | |||
Patrick. ツ ]<sup>]</sup><sup>(become ])</sup> 15:13, 12 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
== My condolences == | |||
:::::My apologies, Gandydancer, if I expressed that badly, and I wasn't thinking of you, but of the people who've been helping BP, and BP itself. I wonder whether senior people in its corporate communications department have agreed to insert company material into independent publications in a way that hides the company's involvement from the readers. That's what I mean by people not thinking it through, i.e. not realizing how bad it makes BP and Misplaced Pages look. I know it has gone on elsewhere, and it's often or always the same small group involved, some of whom seem to be connected to ], though that may be incidental. Hopefully if we start a discussion about it somewhere, we can try to set some limits on it. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
Thank you for everything you did to help this project, so sorry to see you go. ] (]: ]) 23:56, 17 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
Please see ] ]<sub>(<font color="cc6600">]</font>)</sub> 02:11, 19 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
== It's late but I just heard == | |||
:Slim Virgin, I wonder if you saw the conversation at the top of the present talk page of the BP article. ] (]) 12:57, 20 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
that you had passed, through a Misplaced Pages dramaboard as somehow seems apropos. Farewell and rest in peace. If you are someplace where you see AaronSw, please give him my regards too. You and I didn't interact very much, but I remember you and I will miss you. ] (]) 02:57, 21 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Re: BP <Retired> == | |||
*Having not crossed swords with Slim for a while I decided to check in on her. I have to say I am genuinely saddened to learn of her passing. Despite our many disagreements she definitely earned my respect. Misplaced Pages will be a poorer place without her. With Flyer22 passing too, and SchroCat leaving, there are some large boots to fill. ] (]) 03:51, 3 October 2021 (UTC) | |||
Hello SlimVirgin, | |||
== ] == | |||
Thank you so much for your message. I have retired from editing Misplaced Pages in protest over what happened at ] article beginning on 23 December 2012. My issues with Misplaced Pages are multifaceted and involve primarily the oil spill and ] pages, but extend to all pages which are being edited and/or controlled by special interest reps, which from my experience is no small number. For instance, although it's been big news that more American troops are committing suicide every day (19) than are dying in combat, and that there is a huge problem with rape in the military, (keeping in mind "American Troops" redirects to ]), you will not find this information at that article. There are . There is no space to even place any negative or non-official information at the article or any similar military articles, which all look more like a shiny brochure than an encyclopedia page. | |||
Thanks to SlimVirgin, we read as the TFA today about the ], which came with the most excellent introduction I've seen to date, in both detailing the content as also the collaborators: | |||
This type of thing is repeated throughout Misplaced Pages and there is ''no simple, effective recourse'' for independent editors to fix or blow a whistle, that I have found. For the BP article, I filed my first of 3 different types of noticeboards - I used every avenue I could find and even asked a few Admins to come help, all to no avail (or very little). I spent all of June 2012 in a DRN with Rangoon11 and spent an entire week of research to provide a proposal for the Intro, requested by Rangoon in the DRN, only to have my work slammed and used as further excuse to call me a POV pusher. | |||
"This is a partial self-nom. The 10th anniversary of this incident is coming up on September 30 this year, which is why I'm nominating it for FA status. Several editors have worked on it over the years, both on the article itself and by offering guidance on the talk page. A full list of editors is , and talk-page contributors are . It was largely rewritten in October this year, though earlier contributions helped to shape the rewrite. The top editors from 2009 are ], ], ], and myself. Previous key editors were ], ], and ]. It is 41 kB (6502 words) of readable prose; 110 kB overall. | |||
*later edit: I realized I should clarify: when I refer to people responding to help out, I am talking about truly NPOV editors who were new to the page, who learned about it only through the noticeboards. There were editors helping out who had already been active on the BP talk page, like Gandydancer, and I'm sorry I didn't make this more clear earlier.) | |||
What happened to 12-year-old Muhammad al-Durrah is a highly contentious issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He was filmed by France 2 on September 30, 2000 apparently being shot and killed by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during a gun battle with Palestinian security forces. Multiple, conflicting, and sometimes overlapping narratives have developed about the incident over the years. The basic positions are as follows, with examples of who holds the view—the people cited are either involved, or are journalists who've written about the issue in depth: | |||
From the DRN only Binksternet responded to help out, and he has been slammed for it as well. At the AN/I, only one person responded - an Admin who put much effort and time into helping us but without prior knowledge of BP, it was too much and s/he ended leaving Misplaced Pages right in the midst of our discussions. So of the 3 noticeboards, 3 (novel) individuals responded, 2 came to help, 1 stayed. After nine months the Intro is much improved, and most of my suggestions/issues have been resolved but not without many tears, much abuse and a label placed on me as a POV-pusher. My point is that even using the avenues Misplaced Pages offers to help with the problems I saw at BP, there is barely any response from independent editors. I am wondering frankly what the ratio is these days of seriously NPOV-loving editors to special interest reps. It's not good. | |||
#''He was shot and killed by the IDF''. Held by ] and Talal Abu Rahma of France 2; most of the media that first responded; the IDF initially. | |||
In my understanding, COI editors were initially invited to participate in talk if they ran across an article about them or their company that contained falsities or obvious spin/bias. They were invited to alert independent editors. That is completely understandable - none of us want falsities or spin of any kind on Misplaced Pages. But authoring content or even arguing about how information is presented, whether directly or through an editor like Rangoon11 (appointed by Ocassi to help BP - without ever making this fact known - indeed this association was covered up and when asked directly, ) seems like a grotesque stretch of this allowance, and frankly an abuse of Misplaced Pages's remaining indies. I don't think anyone could look through my work at the BP talk page and related noticeboards and claim that the BP-supporting editors had not been abusive of me and of my time. | |||
#''He was shot and killed, probably or definitely by Palestinian gunfire''. Held by e.g. General ] of the IDF following a controversial November 2000 IDF investigation; ], former France 2 correspondent. | |||
#''He was shot and killed, but we don't know who fired the shots''. Held by e.g. ], news director of France 2, and Israeli historian ]. | |||
#''He was shot and killed, and we don't know by whom, but not by the IDF soldiers known to have been there''. Held by e.g. ] of ''The Atlantic''. | |||
#''A boy did die that day in that area, but he arrived at the hospital (10 am) before al-Muhammad was shot (between noon and 3 pm), and the boy shown during the funeral was not al-Durrah. Muhammad may be alive or dead; there is no firm evidence either way.'' A small minority position, held by German journalist ], who has produced two documentaries about the incident. | |||
#''There is no reason to suppose he was either shot or killed; the whole thing was a hoax''. A very small minority position, the so-called "maximalist narrative." Held by e.g. Israeli physicist ] who was involved in the October 2000 IDF investigation; ], an American academic; ], a French media commentator; ], director of the Israeli govt press office; ], a retired managing editor of ''Le Monde''; Jean-Claude Schlinger, a French ballistics expert hired by Karsenty. There is also a belief, held by at least one member of the October 2000 IDF inquiry, that the incident was staged, but that the boy's death was real and was part of the pretence. | |||
The positions aren't as clear-cut as the above and overlap considerably. It has been difficult to steer a course through them, giving each view the attention reliable sources give it, but I think we've achieved a reasonable balance. The article covers all the main views comprehensively, without going into neurotic detail (I hope). | |||
My main work at Misplaced Pages by far has been on the BP oil spill page and specifically with the health and environmental aspects of it. This is fun and easy for me because it's my passion - I'm reading about it anyway, so it's simple to keep the article updated. One could assume that my work at the BP article is related to some hatred for the company that caused the spill. That was indeed a meme that began at my first ] edit and continues. In actuality I don't blame BP any more than I blame our bought government. In fact, after a few years of editing the oil spill page (in 2010 I was an IP - see edit summary of the spill article, the top IP contributor was me) I had never even looked at the BP page. In May 2012, I ran across an article stating that BP had ended its solar programme, and I went to update the Wiki article. That was my first edit at the BP page. Even though editors were active on the page, the article still had a big section about its solar programme three months after it had ended. {{strikethrough|Seconds after updating it, Rangoon11 stepped in and reverted my work, calling me a POV-pusher right off the bat. Her edits made no sense, removing BP's own statement sourced from their website that "It wasn't profitable enough".}} | |||
There are quite a few fair-use images in the article, as we had to use the original France 2 footage of the shooting. This is copyrighted, but although not released under a free licence, the network has allowed the images to be reproduced all over the world without charge, so there's no problem with our use of them. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 08:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)" | |||
*later edit: ''correction'' It was not Rangoon11 who reverted BP's stated reason for leaving its solar programme, . It was not 'immediately', but about 5 hours later. | |||
*I should also like to take this opportunity, since I am retired, to once again let you know that the ] article is being scrubbed and that it just prior to the court case which started Feb 25. Now Beagle, with help from Martin Hogbin, have removed any mention that people are dying from the oil spill as well as these references and . These are the editors running the show on Misplaced Pages and I find it a slap in the face to truth and to the victims of the oil spill. See my comments about this , where I point out that this edit is about revenge rather than helping grow an encyclopedia. Please, someone, take a look at this issue. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:28, 29 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
Awesome. --] (]) 07:34, 30 September 2021 (UTC) | |||
I next noticed the Intro that was literally the most profound example of greenwashing I had even seen - it was the day I learned the term "greenwashing" in fact. I've covered the details of this extensively elsewhere, but my point is, if something so obvious can't be fixed in a reasonable amount of time, Misplaced Pages is broken. The problem I pointed out should have been resolved in weeks at most. The reason it took nine months was because of the editors permanently working to 'help' Arturo/BP. Their help mostly consists of arguing until they are the last one standing. | |||
== RIP == | |||
"Should paid BP reps be writing content for their Misplaced Pages article?" - if this is our starting point, it is an extremely low bar and highlights just how bad the problem is. This should be a no-brainer. In my opinion, we should be far past this and actively banning people who have edit histories like Rangoon11 from editing Misplaced Pages altogether. | |||
{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;" | |||
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ] | |||
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''“Known by many, respected by all.”''' | |||
|- | |||
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | “A rare bright star among the sleeping throngs.” ] (]) 08:59, 27 February 2022 (UTC) | |||
|} | |||
== RIP == | |||
Because I am a bit emotional about all of this, I won't be engaging much with the BP talk; emo-editing is a bad idea. BUT I am willing to respond to questions about what happened and can easily and happily give diffs for everything - and that is a big deal because if you aren't familiar with this whole thing, finding individual pertinent diffs is prohibitively time consuming. | |||
I talked to Sarah before the pandemics because she needed a photograph of the grave in Rome of the Australian artist Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge. I only managed to take those pictures today, and I had learnt the sad news she's no longer with us. She might have liked that someone continues the job she started and that her legacy is not lost. May the Earth be Light on You, Sarah. -- ''']''' <sup><small>]</small></sup> 13:26, 28 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for ] relating to ]. ] (]) 23:27, 28 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
::. ] (]) 01:32, 5 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
:::Condolences on this loss. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 08:39, 5 September 2022 (UTC) | |||
::::You will be remembered. R.I.P. — ] (]) 04:39, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
The idea of summarizing my entire history at the BP page and the related catastrophe at the spill page seems challenging at this time. I think to begin with, I would rather answer specific questions simply because of time constraints and the fact that I'm pretty angry about this. I don't enjoy reading the words of an angry editor, and out of respect I wouldn't want to put you all through it. When I'm calm and rational I would love to post something helpful. But as you say, the time is now. | |||
== R.I.P. == | |||
Do you think you have enough of a grasp on the situation to have specific questions for me, and would this be a helpful compromise for now? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 22:43, 20 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
May rest in peace. ] (]) 00:01, 27 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
:Just a note, while I had previously worked with Rangoon in 2011, I checked my contribs and email and as far as I can see did not introduce him to Arturo at BP or interact with him through OTRS. I stopped working at the BP article after the Deepwater Horizon incident escaped constant press coverage and did not follow the controversy at the article since, until I learned that Arturo was engaging with disclosure there, which interested me as a general approach. Petrarchan, I hope you come back, perhaps after a break. Your perspective is needed. Controversial articles only work when there is robust and fair discussion. ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 23:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Historiography Appreciation == | |||
::You stated: "Typically for OTRS requests I first investigate the claims myself and see if it's something minor I can handle. If it involves anything complex or controversial I'll look for an active, non-POV pushing editor at the article's talk page/history whom I respect to put the person in touch with. At BP that person was Rangoon11" If Rangoon is your idea of a respectable non-POV pusher, whoa. I did ask for your help at BP and you never responded. I am concerned that you are putting editors to 'help', like with the NDAA 2012 article, where you placed someone to help the US Congress, but no one on the talk page is being told this is taking place. Editors can sense when an interest group is being represented even when the editor has not declared a POV, or that they are specifically there to help the subject of the article. And they loose faith in the system when it's so apparent on so many pages that this is taking place, yet blowing a whistle yields only headaches. Misplaced Pages doesn't even have a rule about transparency regarding editors asked to 'help' the US Congress or BP? That's crazy! From what I've experienced, it seems the cards are massively stacked against the indie editor on Misplaced Pages and massively stacked in favor of the paid, or otherwise compensated, editors who have endless time, energy, contacts and knowledge of how to *use* this system. (And by use, I mean game.) '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 01:07, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
Your work at ] is appreciated. ] | |||
:Hi Petra, I' m sorry to hear what you've been through. It sounds horrific, and exactly the kind of situation that's burning out volunteers. It's really hard to know how to deal with it all, or rather it's easy to know how to deal with it, but for reasons I'll never understand hard to get it done. Sometimes I think what we need to organize is a poll of our readers, not our editors: do you want Misplaced Pages to allow paid advocacy? | |||
] (]) 01:13, 26 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
== May you be at one with your gods, whomever they may be == | |||
:I'm just leaving this note to tell you that I have to go offline shortly, and I want to think some more about what you said. I don't have specific questions at the moment, because I don't know enough to know what to ask. But I want to read your note again and get back to you when I have more time. Thank you for replying so promptly. Best, ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:06, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
Damn. I don't know how I missed this. I never really told you how much I admired you. The world was a better place with you in it, and you leave great things behind. I always felt like a little dog yapping at your heels... ] <small>] </small> 14:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Well truthfully I did come up with an idea. I talked about it with Binksternet on his talk page during the June 2012 DRN. I seriously think that pages which are subject to be targets for special interests or POV pushers should have an easy-to-use, very visible button at the top of the talk page - so that when an editor, even a first-time IP (reader), stumbles upon obvious advertising (I am using that as a placeholder word - it could be in the form of: spin, bias, glaring omissions, wording (like at BP it was "(BP did something bad). ''However'', (they are actually great)" - which was right in the Intro in March 2012. According to Rangoon11 in the DRN, this section was penned by Rangoon and Ocaasi - though there are no talk page entries supporting this. The wording sounds identical to BP/Arturo drafts.). There would be levels of checks, and the valid submissions would find their way to a group of editors who would HELP fix the problem. Because most truly independent readers or editors can easily spot advertising/problems, but how many know how to use the Misplaced Pages system to fix it, or have time after work, between dinner and bed, to go learn how to do a noticeboard, after arguing with some BP 'helper' for an hour? There could be a team ready - since we KNOW these things are taking place - YES there are interest groups actively trying to spin these articles - let's have a team ready to respond! | |||
== Deep Condolences. == | |||
::As for the questions, I am not sure if you were interested in help with BP article content, BP talk page content/history, my opinion about paid and hidden advocacy, all of these or other. Anyway, feel free to ask me anything. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 01:07, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
Hello. I would just like to stop here and say Rest In Peace. You have created many great articles and contributions. Thank you, and you will be remembered. ] ] 12:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::One thing that would help – could you link to the worst version of the article and/or the worst lead, in terms of the whitewashing you identified (such as the May 2012 version you mentioned above)? | |||
==] scheduled for TFA== | |||
:::I like your idea of a button for readers to alert editors. I wonder if that's something the Foundation would be interested in. The obvious problem would be how to prevent its overuse. We'd want it for glaring commercial-type issues, not just that someone didn't like something. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
To any TPSs, This is to let people know that the above article has been scheduled as ] for January 2025. Please check that the article needs no amendments. Feel free to amend the draft blurb, which can be found at ], or to make comments on other matters concerning the scheduling of this article at ]. If people could please keep an eye on that page, as notifications of copy edits to or queries about the draft blurb may be left there by ], who assists the coordinators by reviewing the blurbs, or by others. I also suggest that you watchlist ] from two days before it appears on the Main Page. Thanks to all in ensuring Sarah's work remains as high quality as she would want. - ] (]) 11:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Blessing == | |||
::::That's why a series of checks could ensure only the valid complaints make it to the team. A large group of trusted volunteers could monitor incoming complaints just like we do vandalism, and send them up and to more (specialized?) groups of volunteers. Sure it won't be easy, but something like this could potentially save Misplaced Pages. | |||
Just chanced upon another SV contribution, creation of the No Original Sources / Noticeboard, so again want to wish my condolences to fellow Wikipedians and those IRL who mourn her passing. May her memory be for a blessing. ] (]) 14:58, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
</div> | |||
:::: is the Intro to which I've been referring. | |||
:::: is the DRN about the Intro. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 02:23, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Petrarchan, I checked my 4 email accounts and my OTRS tickets... While I indeed worked with Rangoon during 2011 it wasn't me who connected Arturo and Rangoon. Under a good bit of pressure from Slim's questioning I simply got mixed up--25,000 edits, hundreds of OTRS tickets, and hundreds of conversations with people about Misplaced Pages, it happened. When I worked with Rangoon the world was piling on BP and it struck me that editors needed to maintain balance while that was going on. I did the same at ], ] and ] and ]. There are causes I support in private, but I go out of my way to make sure that Misplaced Pages doesn't take a side on them beyond following ]. In 2011, Rangoon was helpful and clearheaded, I appreciated his background in this area and his feedback. I can't make up the fact that I had a really positive experience working with him, it's just how I felt. Then Deepwater Horizon left the constant news cycle and I left the BP article. I didn't follow the DRN threads, or the talk pages, except to note that Arturo had joined in the conversation. I'm sorry you had such a contentious time at the article and am disappointed you couldn't come to consensus with Rangoon. I've been there, at other articles. I'm also sorry I didn't reply to you earlier, I have been quite busy with meetups and wikipedia related travel and events. | |||
:::::As for the U.S. Congress article, there very much was a COI disclosure, as I encouraged, and the conversations continued on the talk page with editors who had much more knowledge and expertise than I did. When I talk to someone from one of the largest Oil Companies (Occidental Petroleum), or a global consulting organization (Monitor Group) or the a superpower (NDAA 2012), I don't welcome them with bear hugs. I tell them the best practices I think will ensure both their and our integrity, which is to stick to the talk page, state up front that they have a COI, and propose neutral well-sourced drafts or other suggestions that editors can review. That's always been my practice, despite the policy conversations I've been involved with that taken out of context suggest I'd prefer otherwise. I talk to these people because I think it's important that Misplaced Pages be responsive to critics, and I can't think of a better way to do that than to let them share their input on a talk page where it's out in the open. | |||
:::::That said, not all of the conversations I have can be public. Some people will only talk to me in private. Some policies, such as OTRS' privacy policy, prohibit me from making information public unless given permission...there are also things that happen behind the scenes in private consulting firms, or within PR companies that I'm ''also'' only privy to rare glimpses of. And that's with trying to find out what I can--much of the world of public relations is still hidden behind confidentiality agreements that even my attempt to research this issue can't penetrate. This is frustrating, perhaps even moreso for you, but it is reality, and neither of us can control much of it. All I can say is that at any opportunity I get, I encourage people to be transparent about their COI and to go through the talk page. What Arturo has been doing may not be anyone's dream of neutrality, but I consider it better than the alternative of hundreds of edits clumsily or sneakily slipped into an article while no one is watching. I've seen worse than Arturo, though I understand why he's under such serious scrutiny, the BP article ''warrants'' that scrutiny. | |||
:::::This situation has raised a lot of emotions and been generally divisive, as contentious issues are. We still have to make practical choices about what to do when a company representative approaches us next month (or doesn't approach us and hires someone else to do the work in secret). Plenty of folks would love to tell them, ''go the fuck away'', but I think that just creates an illusion of security where one doesn't actually exist. So I'll just say it again, I hope you take a break, and I hope you come back. ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 02:29, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Why not advise them to post helpful material on a company website, so that we can cite it as a source? That solves the problem right there. BP's words can go into the article on BP, attributed to the company, and in quotation marks as appropriate. This gives them access to express their perspective, and it tells the reader which bits of the article come from the company. | |||
::::::Our polices allow published ]s to be used, so no policy change would be needed. | |||
::::::Instead of organizing paid-editor helpers standing by to add company drafts to articles, you could be advising them to use that source material, as they would any other. Everyone wins. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 02:42, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Quick question for Ocaasi: is the editor told that Darouet was placed to help the US Congress? I have been editing the NDAA 2012 page and did not know that a representative was working on the page, and do not see it stated anywhere. The most recent edit Darouet made was to remove mention of which Congress people voted for the NDAA 2012, saying it didn't belong in the intro, but deleting it altogether rather than moving it to a better place. Do you ever check up on how your editors are doing? Rangoon11's first ever edits to Misplaced Pages landed her (and if you'd studied her AN/I history you would know her gender) in big trouble as the edits were all advocating for some big, private school. I do think you could spend more time investigating the editors you choose to trust and make their association extremely evident. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 02:54, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{Outdent}} | |||
# Slim, from what I've seen Arturo's work appears to be a summary of published reliable sources, so don't think it's against our policy if it's offered and reviewed through the talk page; that said, concerns about whitewashing and reflecting the full literature with proper balance are totally reasonable. We can discourage such drafts, or we can seek a better review process: I've explained my views on why I prefer the latter option, but I'm waiting to see how this plays out. For your suggestion, if BP posted statements on their website that we could quote, it could be useful. I think though that I'd frankly prefer the information comes from third-party sources. This might seem ironic to say if one points out that Arturo is far from independent (I agree he's not independent), but the sources he cites in his draft would be (and should be). | |||
# Petrarchan, "]". It was in the archive. I also did a massive amount of ] for that article (probably bordering on copyvio). And I keep tabs at least at first until discussion picks up at the article, but as it progresses I often don't have time nor expertise to follow all of the details. I'm sure this isn't an ideal or maybe even satisfactory response, and if you think it's inadequate then I'm open to suggestions. I'm not sure what a better alternative is that's realistic to implement. ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 04:29, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
:A Misplaced Pages Administrator placed an editor on the ] page to help the represent the US Congress, and is satisfied that the only declaration of this is in the archives, and does not check to see if said editor is following NPOV, is not accountable for that editor's actions -- this is actually a bigger story than "BP wrote it's own article", in my mind.] (]) 05:07, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I would like to note that Petrar's claims about his editing history at BP are mistaken on numerous fronts. Basically everything he has said about his history of editing that article has been distorted. Maybe he just forgot exactly how things went and it all blended together, but it definitely didn't happen the way he claimed.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 05:33, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Without concrete examples, what purpose does your comment serve other than to try and discredit me? (Also known as trolling, which a recent study found to be very ). Diffs or it didn't happen. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 06:13, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Maybe you should provide diffs since you are the one making such specific allegations.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 06:53, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::TDA is correct, I did have (at least) one detail wrong. It was not Rangoon11 who reverted BP's stated reason for leaving its solar programme, . It was not 'immediately', but about 5 hours later. Any other discrepancies, please point them out. Thanks to all for their sleuthing. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 16:26, 25 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
Thank you, SlimVirgin, what you have done by pulling back the curtains has had a profound effect already. I am one small person, but for me your actions have been quite earth-shattering. The experience I described above, and my reasons for retiring, well... it all seems to have been healed. I no longer have the scars, and today editing Misplaced Pages was pure bliss. | |||
For the larger picture, though, according to (non-troll) chatter online, not one person was surprised by either BP or Misplaced Pages's involvement in this. You were right indeed - arguably the most controversial section on the BP page, tar sands ("Canadian oil sands"), was written by a BP PR team and sits, as we speak, on the Wiki page without a BP copyright tag. The other reaction that was unanimous, from what I have observed, was a collective sadness. People were saddened to acknowledge that 'our' Misplaced Pages is not ours. The sadness comes from the fact that we want to believe this is a sacred place of truth, where spin is the enemy. We want to believe we can trust this online collection of knowledge - which is really us (or so we thought). People are left with a sickly feeling knowing that with enough money, corporate tentacles know absolutely no bounds. | |||
But sunlight is the best disinfectant. I want to predict that something very good will come of this. I believe it. I think it already has. At least, for this one small person. Thank you. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 23:23, 25 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for your note, Petra, and I'm really glad to hear that you're reconsidering your retirement. We need people who know all the details, but it does takes its toll on those individuals. Just make sure you put yourself first. All the best, ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 02:10, 26 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Sage advice, I'll take it. Best to you. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 08:26, 27 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
===BP lead in 2011=== | |||
Ocaasi, the lead that Petra highlighted above does require explanation. Just to be clear: this was when you and ] were writing the article in 2010 and 2011, before ] arrived in 2012. The three key sentences are: | |||
<blockquote>BP's track record of ] has been mixed. The company has been involved in a number of major environmental and safety incidents and received criticism for its political influence. However in 1997 it was the first major oil company to publicly acknowledge the need to take steps against ], and in that year established a company-wide target to reduce its emissions of ].</blockquote> | |||
This is a pretty clear violation of ], which says that "prominent controversies" must be included. The reason for that rule is that a lot of readers only read the lead, so it's meant to be a stand-alone summary of the article. Anyone reading the lead alone should come away with a clear idea of the article's main issues. But this lead failed to mention, for example, the 2010 ], the largest environmental disaster in the United States, and the criminal proceedings BP was facing as a consequence; the earlier ] in 2006, for which BP was fined US$20 million; and the ] in 2005, which killed 15 workers, injured 170 others, over which BP faced criminal charges. | |||
The sentence saying that BP's track record has been "mixed" was added by you in January 2011. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a source that says its record is mixed. For overviews, see for example: | |||
:*''The New York Times'', , May 8, 2010. | |||
:*''The New York Times'', , July 12, 2010. | |||
:*] and ] for ]/], , October 2012, which catalogues the allegedly poor safety and environmental record and the reasons for it. | |||
The second sentence, "The company has been involved in a number of major environmental and safety incidents .." was added by you in the same diff. The third sentence – "However in 1997 ..." – was added by Rangoon in February 2011. | |||
These edits meant there were more words in the lead about BP acknowledging climate change, than about the environmental disasters for which it faced criminal charges. Petra tried to challenge this, and was forced to go through on the dispute-resolution board (scroll up to BP; the link is jumping for some reason), though anyone adhering to LEAD would have known that the prominent controversies needed to be added, with links to the relevant sub-articles. Editors wanting the policies and guidelines to be adhered to shouldn't have to jump through hoops the way Petra was forced to. | |||
I'd appreciate hearing your perspective on this. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:10, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
:My perspective that this edit to what WP:LEAD suggests. Editing is an iterative process and not every edit ends on the right solution. I have no doubt that Deepwater Horizon should be mentioned in the lead, but crafting a lead was a second priority to organizing the article itself, which is necessary to do so that the lead reflects the body. My primary work on the BP article, as I said before, was that . | |||
:It's also taken thousands of edits to get a better conception of how WP:DUE impacts WP:NPOV, and I accept that my 2011 work was probably a less sophisticated reflection of that. | |||
:I think a more constructive activity than digging through old diffs would be to go and evaluate, criticize, improve the content at the current article. I get the feeling there's a bit of a prosecution going on, and I think it's going down the wrong path. Better to acknowledge the controversy, and work to improve the article as well as our processes around these situations... I don't claim to have acted perfectly, but my work on BP in 2011 was soundly with the intent of keeping balance at an extremely contentious article. In short, if you think it could be done better, please, go make that suggestion. The article is very much a work in progress, as am I. ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 21:40, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
::What you say about your 2011 edits not necessarily being the edits you would make today is a very fair point. Learning how the polices interact with the realities of actual editing involves a steep learning curve, and I find I'm learning myself all the time even though I've been doing it for years. So I completely accept what you say about that. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 22:00, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
=='''Did you realize that ...'''== | |||
About 40% of Misplaced Pages's article on ] (British Petroleum) was written by a BP employee, and the the source of this text is not disclosed to our readers? BP was also the source of the horrific ]. It recently pleaded guilty to lying to Congress and to lying to its own investors, but those facts are not included in the article, nor is there anything in the article about BP misleading our readers. | |||
If you'd like to know why independent editors are leaving Misplaced Pages, please read ] | |||
(hope you don't mind a little extra trafic on your user page) | |||
]<sub>(<font color="cc6600">]</font>)</sub> 02:20, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Well, I just read the article and found this text: | |||
:"On 14 November 2012, BP and the Department of Justice reached a $4.5 billion settlement, the largest of its kind in U.S. history. BP also agreed to plead guilty to 11 felony counts related to the deaths of the 11 workers. Beyond the 11 counts of manslaughter, the government charged several individuals as well. David Rainey, who worked for BP during the spill response, was indicted on charges of obstruction of Congress and false statements. He alledegedly cherry-picked pages from some documents and withheld others "to make the spill appear less catastrophic than it was.” Two other BP supervisors on board the rig when it exploded were charged with manslaughter and other counts The settlement has not resolved the fines under the Clean Water Act, which could be as much as $21 billion. Speaking at a news conference, a U.S. federal official said, “The explosion of the rig was a disaster that resulted from BP’s culture of privileging profit over prudence.” The total amount paid out by BP by November 2012 was $42 billion. In November 2012, the U.S. Government temporarily banned BP from bidding any new federal contracts. Estimates of the total amount of penalties that BP may be required to pay have reached as high as $90 billion." | |||
:So, I am not sure what Smallbones is saying is lacking in the article. It also links to four additional articles about the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, including the one Smallbones linked. ] ] 05:31, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
::The above quote says that one BP employee was indicted for lying to Congress. It doesn't say that BP itself pleaded guilty to lying to Congress (that's part of the $4 billion fine). It doesn't say that separately BP pleaded guilty to lying to its investors in the SEC case ($525 million fine). ]<sub>(<font color="cc6600">]</font>)</sub> 13:12, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Thanks == | |||
Thanks for your advocacy on the issue of conflict of interest in the ] article. The attitude that Wikipedians hold toward conflicts of interest always amazes me. I can't imagine ''any'' serious, reputable reference work or encyclopedia that would be comfortable with a BP public-relations employee having a role in drafting its coverage of the subject - a role undisclosed to the casual reader. That should be an immediate non-starter. | |||
People seem to feel that the conflict is a non-issue because the edits are filtered through a handful of pseudonymous Wikipedians - an approach which hardly inspires any sort of confidence. I think that part of the problem is that very few Wikipedians have any exposure to or understanding of how reputable publishing works, and how seriously and carefully reputable publishers approach editorial conflicts of interest. I also think that many Wikipedians view themselves as incorruptible arbiters, smarter than the PR people trying to manipulate our coverage. Of course, that just makes them easier marks, like physicians who don't think that free lunches and basketball tickets affect their prescribing habits. | |||
The central asset of any published work is its credibility, and I think we're really squandering our credibility in a very short-sighted way here. I appreciate you standing up for a serious, mature, and sensible approach to conflicts of interest, but (as I'm sure you know better than I) it's going to be a lonely and probably unsuccessful road. Misplaced Pages's approach to conflicts of interest is stuck where the scholarly literature was 20 years ago - we pretend that our existing editorial process is sufficient to handle COIs, just as the journals assumed that their peer-review mechanisms were sufficient to catch out biased or unsound submissions. Those journals learned a hard lesson, largely at the hands of the tobacco industry, and now any reputable publisher requires an honest disclosure of conflicts of interest in addition to the standard editorial/peer-review process. I don't see Misplaced Pages getting there anytime soon - our community and editorial standards seem to be mired in a race to the bottom at present - but I do appreciate your efforts to articulate that this is a real problem and a real threat to this site's credibility, even if people inside the bubble here are never going to understand why. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 22:40, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Thank you, MastCell, your comment means a lot to me. I've been feeling like Alice in ''Through the Looking Glass'' for the last 24 hours. I've just posted to the BP talk page, to try to show how absurd it would be for any reputable publication to do what we're doing. But some Wikipedians genuinely believe that we can handle COI better than the most reputable academic journals and newspapers are able to. It will destroy our credibility, and I couldn't honestly argue that we deserve any if this is the attitude. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 22:59, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Yeah, I did try to articulate my concerns ], but without much success. I don't come to Misplaced Pages expecting much in the way of serious discussion, but the thoughtless, knee-jerk quality of many of the responses was particularly depressing. I don't want to romanticize the old days, because there were a lot of problems... but at least it seemed like there was a shared goal of a serious, respectable reference work. These days, if you try to discuss what we need to do to create a credible, reputable reference work, people treat you like you have three heads or something. I've come to feel increasingly out of step with the dominant ethos here, which means it's probably time to shuffle off into the sunset. Anyhow, I appreciate your efforts, and rest assured that you're on the right side of the looking glass. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 03:47, 22 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Yes thanks for taking this up SlimVirgin. If there's anyone who can get any traction on this it's you. Yes the response is frustrating and puzzling. I guess one factor is that there are a lot libertarians here, probably. This is kind of a crisis for the idea of an encyclopedia written and run by volunteers. ] (]) 05:47, 22 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Let's hope that the current situation represents one position of the pendulum, which will swing towards sanity in due course. I have been too busy to follow ], but I noticed a spectacularly uninformed comment directed at SV on ] and couldn't resist getting slightly drawn in. One complicating factor is that it appears (from a very quick look) that some of those opposing the COI have been inappropriately pushing a "BP is bad" line, or have been too vociferous in their approach with some of their complaints being found to have flaws when inspected. An unlikely group of editors has gathered to resist the flawed complaints, but they can't hear anything from outside the echo chamber. ] (]) 07:33, 22 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Our article on ] is now written more or less exclusively by members of this small religious movement as arbcom indefinately banned ] one of the few independent editors in this topic area as he spoke out about COI. They have refused to allow him to return to editing for reasons discussed behind closed doors. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:10, 23 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::: John: you are right; the current complainants aren't making a compelling case. Anyone whose argument involves demonizing the BP editor are unlikely to succeed - he has done a fine job of following existing policy. We have many severe instances of COI that go unrecognized; this one is quite minor in contrast, in part thanks to all of the transparent self-identification, but has a spotlight on it. We do need a better process for reviewing & handling long-form suggestions / proposed edits. | |||
:::::: James: Bonus points for using Will's case in context. It can be hard to quantify or grapple with the relevance of COI for specific contributions, or recognize long-term impacts of shifts in process towards enabling / discouraging COI. Some of the larger questions are "how can we move towards having great balanced articles in this topic" (whether it's TM or supermajor oil firms), and "what behavior are we encouraging / preventing / hiding" and "what sort of community of practice are we building". Since many of the people involved with the BP article are easy to work with, better solutions can be easily tested out - a luxury we rarely have with flame wars. <span style="color:#666">– ]]</span> 05:05, 23 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
==Ghostwriting== | |||
I think you nailed it. I've added some suggestions to the talk page of the essay, as you requested. ] (]) 22:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
==]== | |||
This is perhaps the most important issue facing WP. But...there is just tooo much chatter. and cross-talk. It can't be helped, I know, and its what we editors do to move forward, but active participation is difficult and time-consuming. Somewhere, an editor questions your comment that ''involvement with this issue and the many many many articles is burdensome.'' His request for you to prove your statement is at an example of the problem. From what I see at BP and Chevron, delaying tactics are the rule of the day...unless it comes from corporate. I"m not sure where to "plug in". I'm only willing to give a certain portion of my "sweat and tears" to this "battle". My focus in this and related matters is "Our reader". From what I have read, yours is the same. Thanks for all you do. ```]<small>]</small> 15:57, 2 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::{{tps}}Hey guys. Maybe it is inappropriate for me to comment (well so what), but here is what I would suggest. There are some cases where a PR person's self-written controversy is <i>obviously</i> better: | |||
::#If the current content is so awful, almost anything would be more neutral than the current | |||
::#If the controversy is not currently covered and the PR person is adding it | |||
::#If a subject-matter expert volunteer is involved that has enough knowledge to judge it | |||
::If the current controversy is "ok" and the PR person is just micro-managing language and such, something like this would be appropriate: "Thank you for disclosing and using the Talk page, but the truth is it makes me uncomfortable to post content written by big oil regarding a major oil spill and it's impossible for me to assess whether any content is neutral without doing enough research such that I might as well write it myself. The current article content looks "ok." What I would suggest is that you point out specific errors, problems, or missing facts, etc. to help us improve the page." | |||
::Focus on telling the PR person what you want them to do, rather than what they are asking for. ] (]) 17:16, 6 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Hi Buster, just a note to say sorry for taking so long to reply. I saw your post and decided to reply the next day – I find the COI discussions so discouraging that I have to limit how much time I spend on them – then I just forgot about it. Anyway, thank you for your post and I agree completely about the focus needing to be the reader. | |||
:CM, I've tried doing what you suggest, but the corporate person will simply ignore questions that might divert them. They arrive saying "I'm here because the article is full of errors," but when asked for examples they don't respond – because the aim is to remove criticism or have their words added to the article, not to correct errors (or not only). If there is anyone else on the page willing to help them, that editor becomes the focus of the corporate person's attention – accompanied by personal notes on user talk ("Thank you so much for your help at ... Would you mind adding my suggestion now?") – while the editor asking for a list of the mistakes is left talking to himself. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:12, 9 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I'll second your comment that COI discussions are discouraging and not worth a lot of time. I had to take a short wikibreak and not dealing with that issue, and with COI articles like ], was pleasant. Misplaced Pages opens its gates to the PR industry and it doesn't seem that anything can be done about it. ] (]) 16:53, 11 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I'm a bit of a Harvestor (even in real life). Ive gathered a bunch of this and that related to Paid Operatives (Political Paid Editors during the last two POTUS campaigns). Its like a closest full of stuff that may have some use for someone. If you know of the whereabouts of some great composite stimulating statement related to any of the Paid To Edit Problems, feel free to add it anywhere. Its here: ]. ```]<small>]</small> 16:49, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Hmmm, just a thought == | |||
Hi there, SlimVirgin, | |||
Do you know how much your work with the BP issue is appreciated? I know you're aware of the feathers you've ruffled, but I am concerned you may not know what a wonderful breath of fresh air you have breathed into this encyclopedia, and I sure am sorry the reception wasn't 100% gratitude. | |||
I was invited back to the BP situation by a very charming grandfather of 13, BusterSeven. I've never been able to resist grandparents. | |||
Recently I brought up one of the comments you made last month in an attempt to keep the BP article in keeping with Misplaced Pages guidelines. I wonder if you would feel to comment again, as your very common-sense statements are just not being understood. There is attempt to reinvent the wheel there, and communication is not flowing very smoothly (but it is a vast improvement to anything I've witnessed there heretofore). | |||
I quoted you . '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 18:10, 15 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for the kind words, Petra, and I'm glad things are going better there; also very glad to see you're still around. I'll take a look at the talk page, though I'm probably too far behind what's happening now to catch up, but I'll look in anyway. Best, ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 16:36, 18 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I can understand your desire to catch up in such a complex situation, but the discussion at is interesting and involves only one specific, discrete section of the article, so you may find it interesting to read if not to participate in. | |||
::Separately, since you are an administrator, I am curious to hear your opinion of this edit as I've never encountered a situation where an editor actively involved in talk page discussions "hides" comments from an editor with whom he's had disputes and that he doesn't agree with. Maybe it's OK but I've never encountered it. ] (]) 03:13, 19 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I just happened to read the comment to you below, about one's work being stalked, and wouldn't you know it - the very editor Core and I are speaking of is now stalking my work in of the encyclopedia. This place is like Kindergarten sometimes. I don't know how you all can get any honest editors to stick around, frankly. Ridiculous. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 02:56, 21 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I believe that that editor showed up at the BP article because he was stalking me. We tangled at the BPA article and I won only because editor WhatamIdoing is just absolutely brilliant when it comes to sourcing--I could have never stood up to him if she hadn't been willing to give me a hand. I think he likes to get even. BTW, did you notice that Arturo asked him to come back to the article? I'll bet he would not be so concerned as to leave a nice note if one of us leaves, right? ] (]) 03:32, 21 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::A professional white-washer, apparently. No, Arturo did not send me "please come back" messages, to be sure. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 06:20, 21 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::I didn't get any of those notes, either. :) ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:56, 21 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::lol '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 23:36, 21 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::So, I have a question regarding guidelines. I reverted the tag spam at ], which was part of the revenge-editing I mentioned previously. I was reverted again, and apparently a buddy was called in within minutes, who then deleted some of the sections in question. This seems wrong but I cannot find guidelines, only essays, to consult. I'm wondering what recourse exists for editors (unfamiliar with the majority of guidelines) who notice games like this being played on Wki? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 18:43, 22 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Hi Petra, I'd have to look at the particular case to see what happened. It's hard to advise without knowing the details. If it's a content dispute, ] is always a good option to bring in fresh eyes. Just be sure to ask a clear question so that the RfC produces a result that can be acted upon. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:38, 24 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Much appreciated. Also, after spending more time at the BP page, I've got some ideas I'd like to share regarding policy. (You asked me to help with your discussion along those lines when you first contacted me, but I had no ideas then.) Where do you think is a good place to share, do you have a project page for this, or shall I leave them here? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:25, 24 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::By all means leave them here, or if they're formal proposals ] might be a good place. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 19:27, 24 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::If I had one goal at Wiki, it would be that something akin to become a formal proposal. The indies need help if Wiki is going to allow/turn a blind eye to the work of PR reps/teams. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 20:48, 24 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::It has changed since the above link, so here it is, unpolished, but the best I can do for now: | |||
===idea=== | |||
{{Cquote|It turns out Misplaced Pages editors have unknowingly entered into an agreement to deal directly with BP and the dynamics of that if we are to edit the ] page. I'm not ok with that. I think dealing with large corporations or Congress - any special interest - should be done in a way that doesn't use volunteer time, but rather that all suggestions and comments from the special interest (in this case, BP) should go through a specialized OTRS ticket system which would be facilitated by a totally dispassionate, very transparent, NPOV administrative team set up to deal with these special needs and to help indies deal with the CREWE-type onslaught at the related talk page. Also, with a rep present, there exists a strong emotional pull to please and to refrain from displeasing the company. I don't feel this at any other page (this is the only page I've worked on that has a PR rep present). This, and the nightmare editing experience at BP that ensues from simply trying to alleviate whitewashing is directly related to the presence of BP's "Misplaced Pages engagement team" and lack of a proper counter-force. We should not have to feel the need to apologize or mention our editing is not personal (as is happening) - we shouldn't be in that situation in the first place, when our goal is to simply update an encyclopedia. In cases such as this, particularly where the subject is being sued and is in quite a bit of trouble, there should be oversight equal to what BP is offering in their defense, but offered by Misplaced Pages in the form of an admin team aware of potential problems. It is too much to ask of us. It's too much pressure, it isn't fair, and, from what I've observed, within no time we indies get caught up in our own battles and hurt feelings, and render ourselves useless. There is also the fact that our time is limited, and it continues to be the case that lots of it is being wasted by BS arguments on that talk page without getting any editing done, . This has been happening since I first arrived there a year ago. It's what I've referred to as abuse, due to the complete disregard for volunteer editors' time.}} '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 22:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I agree with that completely. I don't know how we've managed to get ourselves into a situation where a company rep can be regarded as neutral and it's the people opposing the company's rewrite who are seen as the problem. But setting up a formal OTRS team would be problematic for all kinds of reasons, e.g. if they are paid, why aren't others; if they are not paid, the quality and speed of response will vary a lot. And who would check that they are neutral themselves? ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:38, 25 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::SlimVirgin, I don't know whether you noticed it, but on the BP page the corporate editor actually challenged one of the beleaguered, unpaid, independent editors there who is volunteering his or her time to fact-check and wrangle the paid editor's interference with the editing process. The paid editor, who by definition is not editing the page in good faith, because he is paid to advance his employer's cause, actually had the ''gall'' to challenge the unpaid editor for not "assuming good faith"! That has got to be one of the most nauseating things I have ever seen in a Misplaced Pages discussion, bar none. ] (]) 22:41, 25 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I don't think I noticed that, but I've seen it many times elsewhere, editors being scolded by the PR rep for failing to AGF. It's the magic word, almost a cult-like thing: you're not AGF-ing, you've gone off-message, you've turned into Other, not Self, so we don't have to pay attention to you anymore. The PR rep, on the other hand, is extremely polite to people he thinks will help, sticks to the letter of policy (while wildly ignoring the spirit), and so his opponents become the villain of the piece. It works because of a failure of critical thinking, and because (lots of) people like to be flattered. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:41, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::There is no such thing as ABF/AGF when it comes to PR participation, because PR is agnostic to the success or failure of the independent websites it works with. Any benefit or damage is merely incidental. We should only assume they're trying to do their job and acknowledge that each PR rep has a different competency-level, corporate bureaucracy and overall approach. What would be more on-target is to discuss the strategies PR reps use to serve their clients that are generally unwelcome and how to discourage them. ] (]) 02:15, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::All questions that those who approved this program should have answered BEFORE implementing it. How is it up to me? I'll have to sleep on this a bit, but I'm thinking: | |||
* It's not working, and things need to change. It's not possible in theory or in practice to create a balanced article with the PR editing (and a support system that includes the highest office O_o ) when the responsibility falls on the few, unorganized volunteers who happen to stumble upon the page. | |||
* This problem needs to be acknowledged by Misplaced Pages in order for things to change. The problem needs to be named clearly, and a conversation must happen. This is actually an emergency situation, and the whole program should be halted until a proper game plan is created. | |||
* If neither of these things happen, we deserve to know why the back door to Misplaced Pages has been left unlocked, and the porch light on, allowing Special Interests to leave mud all over the floor, and why Misplaced Pages is looking the other way when we ask for help with cleaning. We deserve to know why there was more effort put toward getting a whistle-blower replaced (at CNET) than an actual fricking analysis of this very serious situation. | |||
* Until something changes, new editors should be told upfront, "Welcome to Misplaced Pages, where anyone can edit. Use your ref tags! Know that you may end up in direct negotiations with any company whose page you edit. If this presents a problem, Misplaced Pages wishes you luck and, you can always try an RfC. Enjoy!" | |||
* The next step, other than to grumble and give up, is to start ] to educate the world about this problem, which very much resembles the problem with lobbyists in the halls of DC, as well as to call in (new?) editors who would help to counter the pro-corporate and corrupt practices here. This encyclopedia is still a trusted source of knowledge, and makes this a sacred place that needs to be protected. If it can't be, if it's too late, the next best step is clearly convey this to everyone who uses a computer. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:11, 25 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I think you've raised some really good ideas. I've been away for a few days and am just catching up. I think the first necessary step is to slog away at articles where there is COI editing as much as your time and energy allows, and to not be discouraged by hair-trigger reverts and efforts by editors to "own" the article. | |||
::On your last point, I think that an off-Misplaced Pages site highlighting COI editing on Misplaced Pages may not be a bad idea at all. ] (]) 21:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I hear you. With support, there is no need to get frustrated and give up but I don't find adequate support at the BP page because we aren't there every single day like the 'other team (for lack of proper term). We do need to slog away, yes - but that is an action we've been taking for years now - I am pointing out that what we have been doing is not working. We must add new ideas and actions, and certainly if there is an offline corporate support group such as facebook's CREWE, we need that too, just to have a fighting chance at balance on Misplaced Pages. We are so far behind at this point - that is why I am saying this is an emergency situation not unlike the forces behind Occupy's sit-in near Wall Street. The principle is identical: Misplaced Pages has been '''occupied''' by well funded, well organized special interests while the reader, like the voter, lacks this awareness and continues to trust that all is well. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:32, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::What is the policy on soliciting assistance from outside of Misplaced Pages? Is that considered dirty pool or is it acceptable? I haven't found any policy that applies. ] (]) 19:49, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Well, it must be legal because . '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:58, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Well, that settles that. ] (]) 21:11, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::It also explains a lot. For instance, the last person to submit BP's draft word-for-word to the page was an editor from CREWE who has never actually helped with the BP page before or since. He was requested by Arturo, even though Gandydancer was available. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 00:07, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I will add my two cents soon. ```]<small>]</small> 01:24, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I may want to do so too. I hope SlimVirgin doesn't mind her page being hijacked in this fashion. ] (]) 16:35, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I trust SlimVirginn will let us know. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::It's fine, please go ahead. I've archived threads not about COI/paid editing, and I've left older COI-related ones, so we have an overview on this page of things already discussed. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:26, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
===Pointing out COI editing=== | |||
There has been another ArbCom case where the editor pointing out the COI (Jokestress) has been topic-banned, and the editor with the COI allowed to continue editing. See ]. This follows ] from last year, where a long-term editor (Will Beback) was indefinitely banned in part for complaining about (what he believed was) paid advocacy. He appealed recently and was turned down. There are current efforts to find out why the committee won't let him back and which committee members voted against him; see ] and . | |||
It's discouraging that editors alerting people to a COI might end up being viewed as the problem. In both these cases, the problem lay in part with the way the issue was approached. Still, we end up feeling as though we're walking on eggshells when pointing out COI. We're not allowed to out people, even by email, not allowed to make off-wiki enquiries (not even to collect information via Google which is what I believe Will Beback did), not allowed to "bully" multi-nationals, not allowed to adopt a "battleground mentality," and not allowed to forum shop, which can mean simply asking for help on different noticeboards. And of course we must assume good faith at all times. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:47, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:If I understand all those cases correctly, and please let me know if I'm mistaken, they involve ''allegations'' of COI that were contested. In the course of proving those allegations, editors fell afoul of policies safeguarding the anonymity of editors. What we've been dealing with here, in the multinational oil articles and others, are editors who openly disclose their COI and confine themselves to the talk pages of articles. By so doing, P.R. representatives effectively advocate for their clients and employers while complying with Misplaced Pages policies. Editors do not have to "out" these COIs, as they are disclosed. | |||
:In effect, then, COI has been institutionalized and sanctioned, and is now a part of the system by which Misplaced Pages is edited. A few smart pr people have discovered that you can play by the rules, work the system, and Wales will back you. By giving the green light on that kind of behavior, Wales has turned over Misplaced Pages to the p.r. industry. I think that over time, as word spreads, you will find all kinds of articles being subject to that kind editing by parties both for and against the subject matter of the article. I am sure that governments and NGOs will begin to engage in such conduct, and that competitors, customers and litigation counterparties will also land on article talk pages, disclose their COI, and work the system while complying with Misplaced Pages policies. | |||
:Why disclose COI? Why not just work undercover? Because, as we've seen at the BP article, disclosure of COI is viewed with favor in the Misplaced Pages community, and is considered a sign of integrity and of being a straight shooter. You can be, as in this instance, a company that has been explicitly found by the U.S. government to "lack business integrity," and you will be defended by Wiki leaders. ] (]) 14:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::In both the ArbCom cases, the editors admitted to having a COI, but argued that it wasn't serious enough to stop them from editing the affected articles, and this was accepted. (In the TimidGuy/Will Beback case, the argument was that the COI editor wasn't actually being paid to edit WP.) The editors who were topic-banned or banned were sanctioned in part because of the way they approached the issue, and it is true that both were aggressive in their approaches. But it's hard to know how to approach these things without appearing aggressive to someone who believes that most COI editing should be allowed. Any whistleblowing will appear aggressive to someone with those views, and it appears that several people on the ArbCom do think that way. After the TimidGuy case, for example, one of the Arbs who drafted the decision (Jclemens) opened ], in which he argued aggressively in favour of paid editing. With such strong views, he should have recused himself from that case, but instead drafted the decision. He's no longer on the committee, but I think a similar attitude may prevail there. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Slim Virgin, is it true that the ArbCom members were, at least originally, hand-picked by Jimbo alone? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 21:18, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Yes indeed, . This may be another issue to discuss: an unelected representative of Misplaced Pages wielding a great deal of power... '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 22:45, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Declared COI is only part of the problem with what I call an "occupied" Misplaced Pages. Another is one we have no words for, and are threatened for discussing: the inexplicably ardent supporters of COI editors. The ones who swoop in to submit drafts sans review, or who do the dirty work on the page itself, editing out bad stuff, defending the good stuff, putting their own reputations as editors on the line with 100% tendentious editing. Somehow we are not allowed to address them, and somehow they have extreme support at all levels, almost as if untouchable. This is dangerous. The admitted COI editors are really a blessing, they have allowed us to begin the conversation. But it certainly doesn't end with them. This is why I said we need to name the problem (ghostwriting and admitted COI are only parts of it) in a way that encompasses all of the promotional activity - in a way that we won't feel threatened with sanctions for discussing. In fact, this threat on our own voices is another part of the problem! '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 20:04, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::You're absolutely right. I don't know what to say about some of the editing I find there, except that there seems to be a concerted effort to whitewash BP, to downplay the terrible things the company has done and overplay its p.r. campaigns. As you know, I have just begun addressing what I consider to be two of the most serious problems on the page. There is an "environmental initiatives" section that does not consist of environmental initiatives, and a ridiculously overlong "alternative energy" section, which gives the fallacious impression that BP is actually ''more'' invested in alternative energy than anything else, when in fact alternative energy is so insignificant that the number of employees devoted to it is not even broken out in the annual report's summary section. I've fixed the environmental initiative section, pending hair-trigger reversion by the usual editors, but the alternative energy section is such a mess that all I could do is tag it for undue emphasis. These two areas are good real-time examples of how the editing dynamic on that page plays out. ] (]) 20:18, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::The reason I was attracted to the page at all was because of the outrageous 'greenwashing' I saw. Check out the when I first arrived (which took about 9 months to fix). '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 20:48, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Absolutely disgraceful. ] (]) 21:52, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Sponsored editing == | |||
Hey Slim. A while back you mentioned an idea along the lines of what I call "sponsored editing" and we had a discussion on my Talk page. For some reason it bubbled up today and I was wondering if your ever posted it on the Idea Lab or anything. ] (]) 18:15, 24 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Hi CM, no I didn't pursue it, but I'm still interested in it. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:34, 24 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I still think most companies wouldn't go for it, but I feel the option should exist and it should be something available through official channels. I think it would need to be a little more middled though. Provide the client with an up-front consultation and an after-the-fact opportunity to request corrections or challenge content. Why not Idea Lab it and see what comes out? ] (]) 17:16, 25 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I may consider doing that, though it couldn't be a Misplaced Pages thing as such. It would have to be run either by the Foundation or by an external, neutral body. But yes, maybe it's worth opening it up for general input. For anyone reading this, is the outline of the idea. Basically that, if there has to be paid editing, there be an independent body that the companies would pay, then that body would pay a Wikipedian from a maintained list of editors with a proven track record of good editing. The independent body would require the Wikipedian to edit in accordance with the content policies, not in accordance with the company's wishes (which would not be ignored, but would also not hold sway).<p>What the company would get out of it would be a well-written article. It wouldn't work for companies that only want a whitewash, but there are other companies/groups that it might work for. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 02:12, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I don't see WMF being able to broker it, as it would create controversy for them and COI problems. An independent organization might work. But then it's basically just a community-endorsed Misplaced Pages consulting vendor that outsources to individual editors. It would probably have to be independent, as it would need to be selective about which editors to hire for the work and this is too counter to how Misplaced Pages works to be on-Wiki. But the other side of that is the whole point of it would be to have an official channel and I would just see this creating problems down the road. ] (]) 02:39, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I can see some problems cropping up with this proposed approach. Companies with existing articles are going to want to deal with negative content in 99% of cases. Let's say I'm Company X and I don't like the slant of my article. So I go through this intermediary to resolve the issue. The intermediary approaches a fine, upstanding editor who tackles it. OK. But what if there isn't a problem? What if the article is all right as is, and the requested changes would tilt the POV int he company's favor? Now, let's say I'm an independent editor who thinks the article is OK as is. Now I have a fine, upstanding editor being paid to slant the article in the company's favor. A POV problem is created where none previously exists. The fact that the editor is experienced will just mean that it is harder to deal with that editor, and he is more likely to prevail if there is some conflict and I go to a noticeboard or RfC. Other editors will say, "Pristine Editor Z edited this article so obviously he or she did a great job." I don't see this helping the situation but actually making it worse. | |||
::::As for new articles being created, having an arrangement like this slants Misplaced Pages by giving the edge to companies that pay for content. What about their competitors that don't pay for content? Is that fair to them, their customers, employees and above all the public? They may be more worthy of inclusion in wikipedia. It would give Misplaced Pages an institutional bias in favor of companies that are image-oriented enough to pay for inclusion. ] (]) 14:26, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Yes, that is the problem. Wherever you have paid editors creating extra work for volunteers, it's unfair, even if the paid editor has been paid independently, is observing NPOV, etc. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:23, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::This argument has come up a few times that it's unfair that companies that pay for Misplaced Pages services have higher quality articles. I would suggest the opposite - it's unfair that some must pay while others get articles for free ;-) | |||
:::::But there is the other problem that exists no matter what. I turn down 75% of new business inquiries because the desired outcome is too out-of-step with what Misplaced Pages wants. This means to do Misplaced Pages consulting well/ethically, one must accept a 75 percent pay-cut. This financial temptation would be even stronger among volunteers that are often desperate for cash. | |||
:::::This is really what it comes down to is in order to do it well, you must not care about money, which is not a common trait... ] (]) 16:52, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::I would rather see articles on companies than on the umpteenth permutation of a video game, so I sympathize. I think that the long-term solution is to bring in more adults, more retired people perhaps. No disrespect intended to the teeny-boppers, but there are too many of them. ] (]) 17:24, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::...and there's no question that was coverage of companies out there is not very good. I just wandered by ], as that is a company I am familiar with, as is anybody who has ever used a stapler. I was curious to see what kind of article there is on that. To my horror, I found that over half of the article consists of an "in popular culture" section consisting of absurdly unimportant trivia. That is what happens when you have an encyclopedia written by anonymous teenagers. But is the solution for Swingline to hire somebody to improve the article? No, I think that people like me have that burden. ] (]) 17:31, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I see it as not enough editors from the business world, which often turns Misplaced Pages into a sort of consumer advocacy and popular culture site. At Wikimania there were several discussions on needing editors with more diverse genders, cultures, interests, etc. but the need to better cover business topics was neglected. I do what I can in this area. I've been neglecting the article on ], which I'm slowly but surely progressing on through its history. ] (]) 18:01, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::That would be the advantage of aiming for older editors. Many, even most have some business background. ] (]) 18:21, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::I would rather have shitty stapler articles filled with fluff than what we have now: BP writing their own Tar Sands section while the loudest and topmost Wikipediacs defend this practice as if its existence means an end to world hunger. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:54, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Re SlimVirgin's proposal, it looks like the only way to counter paid editing is with paid editors. There is not enough support in the already stressed and dwindling independent, volunteer editing community. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 21:15, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::The more paid editors we have, the fewer volunteers we will attract, because people are not going to work for free to monitor and fix the work of people who are paid. Volunteers will sometimes do it (for example, when something really absurd has happened, as at BP), but for the most part volunteers will drift away as paid editors arrive. That just seems so obvious I'm amazed that the Wikimedia Foundation doesn't consider paid editing to be an emergency. | |||
::::So one of two things has to happen: either we ban paid editing in all its forms, or we try to introduce a system of payment for established Wikipedians (not fly-by-nights, not company reps) via an independent body, who will act as a firebreak between the payer and the payee, and who will ensure that the payee acts in the interests of Misplaced Pages. | |||
::::I envisage a process where Wikipedians can apply for "paid editor status," just as they do for adminship. They would need to show, say, 10,000 non-minor article edits, familiarity with the content policies, at least six GAs or three FAs, etc. Then, when a company wants an article, they apply to the independent body, that body posts on a noticeboard that company X wants 2,000 words; the payment is Y; then people with "paid editor status" would apply openly for the job. The independent body would choose which editor to give the assignment to. | |||
::::I think this could work well, except for two major issues: (a) it would not suit companies that wanted a whitewash, and that might be a large percentage of potential clients; and (b) it would give the editor with "paid editor status" a degree of ownership over the article in question, whereby volunteers either felt they should not intervene, or would feel resentful if forced to, and that takes us back to square one: the problem of the paid and the unpaid having to work together. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:33, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::I agree with SlimVirgin. There are so many pitfalls to establishing a neutral paid editing system that really there is no alternative but to rethink the COI guidelines and to ban all paid editing. ] (]) 21:55, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Ban paid editing: not an option or a solution, imo. Declared COI/paid editing is not actually the problem - it's their undeclared 'helpers' (the ones we, by law, aren't allowed to discuss) that are the issue. People have said, "If we ban COI editing, it will not disappear but be forced underground". Anyone who's been around knows there is already a well-established underground system in place, existing to support PR. It is this we need to address ASAP. As you can see, the 2011 BP Intro sounds exactly like the writing from current BP drafts, yet it was done a year before an admitted presence. (There is also the fact that BP had used the OTRS ticket system to get help with the page in 2011, but editors were not informed of this, to my knowledge.) '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 22:36, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::My suspicion is that the support of PR is ideological/behavioral in nature, and has less to do with remuneration than with immaturity, lack of experience, cluelessness, and in some cases with a political belief system. Given the limitations of the Misplaced Pages system, I think that we can go nuts if we try to deal with all the undeclared issues amongst editors. However, I do think that more can and should be done to see to it that the BP article's editing practices are exposed to public scrutiny. ] (]) 22:50, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::It's obvious that there are some paid editors helping the company reps, though I think with others it's just a misguided sense of fairness, or a certain political ideology. But what can be done? We don't really want a situation where editors are running around "investigating" each other. It does make for a toxic editing environment, and it's often unfair. On the other hand, it's absurd that we have to pretend not to notice when all someone's contribs are pro-company edits. People have grappled with this for years, the tension between the outing policy and the COI guideline. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 22:49, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::One thing, it is already a toxic situation. And the avenues (noticeboards, etc) I was given to deal with the unfair editing practices at the BP page required me to "investigate" editors. I had to bring diffs; it was almost like a court case in terms of the effort I put out, but there was no judge and no outcome. Just a wasted summer. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 23:04, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::I just wanted to interject a quick request. Are there any "diffs" you can give me of some of your past efforts? I'm just curious to know what has happened in the past, as a guide for what, if anything, can be done in the future. ] (]) 14:40, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::: '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 18:44, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Another thing, when I said only paid editors can combat the PR pros, I was referring to editors who went through the process you described: elected and paid specifically to help COI needs whilst maintaining a balanced article. Do we have a word for the overall issue at hand that includes PR, paid editors, ghostwriting, CREWE, etc? It would help if we clearly established what exactly we're addressing and to give it a name. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 00:38, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
===Break 1=== | |||
:::::::::Could we address bite-sized pieces of this issue while simultaneously looking at the overall problem? For instance, I think the BP article, with a full-time professional presence, requires someone full-time to represent balance. It's falling on the shoulders of 3-5 (very part-time) indies and we are overwhelmed. In the past week, I have been encouraged to make Arturo's requested changes, and have done so three times. But the independent requests are either ignored or turn into a big argument with no editing taking place. And the indies (except Core) seem to agree that Arturo's requests come first and should be dealt with promptly. No one complains when the "Florida becomes fourth state to sue BP" update request sits on the talk page. I think there is a Pavlovian response that stops me in my tracks when faced with the idea of adding something BP wouldn't like to 'their' article. I'm probably not alone, even though we have articles like and coming out, no one is touching the BP oil spill section, which has only one sentence about environmental or human health damage (three paras about court cases, though) and though I requested help , it has garnered only arguments and then crickets. | |||
:::::::::Given the fact that BP is really still in recovery mode, struggling to bring their stock value back up, in court as we speak, being sued left and right, and using their unlimited resources for PR - Misplaced Pages really should have a full-time helper on that page, even if it doesn't have one anywhere else (yet). This could be argued based on common sense expectations that the company might want to make their Wiki article sweeter than it should be, as well as the history and problems we've been revealing here. Is it possible to consider this case by itself and not wait until we've solved the entire problem and implemented system-wide change? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 02:29, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::That point you make about the Pavlovian response is really crucial. A lot of people feel that way (out of politeness, a sense of having to heed authority, etc), so that the company effectively takes control of the page simply by arriving there. I wonder whether a queue system could be introduced on the BP page, so that requests and concerns (from anyone) are dealt with in order and the BP rep's concerns aren't prioritized. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:59, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::There is a very palpable feeling when making an edit to that page approved or requested by the BP team - it feels good. The same is true when making one that assuredly causes suits to grumble and moan - it feels wretched. So does the debate that follows. // The idea of list is quite sensible. People will argue we must rate the requests by importance, they shouldn't be treated equally, but I think we can aim for progress over perfection just to get things moving. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:08, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::It's funny you should mention it, but I react in precisely the opposite way. Seeing requests from BP's corporate editor gets my hackles up unless they involve outright inaccuracies. Of all the posts on the talk page that I have seen from that editor, only his most recent one deals with something that isn't inaccurate. The remainder, for the most part, are either routine numbers that need updating but are not inaccurate, and efforts to spin. ] (]) 19:40, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::The truth is, I have Stockholm syndrome at this point. Just one read of the noticeboard i pointed you to earlier should give you a hint as to how that could come about. You are new and fresh, but I am changed after a year of hassle at that page. I don't even have the guts to update related pages with info BP wouldn't like, because the same editors follow me and bring friends to erase my work. Gandy has retreated to his/her garden; it wears us down after a period of time. I am very grateful to SlimVirgin for the work she has done to 'out' this situation, and I'm very grateful her work brought you and Buster to help! We couldn't do it without new, fresh peeps like you. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 04:28, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::How about this: an ongoing "BP documentation project." A user subpage somewhere in which editing of the page, and obstruction of edits that don't show BP in a favorable light, are chronicled on an ongoing basis? Having that in one place, along with a to-do list for the article and other BP articles, might help keep us volunteers, with our disjointed schedules and limited time, on track. Of course, being independent, not everyone is going to agree with edits that are and are not "constructive." But at least we have a central place, other than the talk page and article history, to track the progress of the BP articles. ] (]) 14:45, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::The Case Study - indeed! But I still am convinced this particular page needs a full time paid balance-advocate. Just look at all of this energy on our part to counteract the work of folks making 100K$ for this? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 18:44, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::Would it make sense to contact whichever real-life groups monitor BP (Greenpeace?) and explain what is happening. They might be willing to allow one of their knowledgeable people to monitor the article and talk-page, and to check anything the BP rep has suggested adding or removing. We could ask that they don't edit the article, but stick to helping out on talk. That would take some of the pressure off volunteers. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:51, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::Yes, that is the other option. It would require though, an organized effort on the part of Wiki to provide these supports when they OK a paid editor to a page, imo. For BP, I think it would require an independent environmental group that is well-funded (but, for instance, Sierra Club takes millions from BP, so 'independent' can't be assumed) and knowledgeable about all aspects of BP's record, or willing to pay someone to spend the time investigating. But what would that group have to gain? They're using donations to fight against corporate spin on Misplaced Pages? It doesn't seem like it would be a priority for any group I can think of. Also, the BP page would require someone like . This help would require incentive and I don't see what that would be. Let's keep thinking on this. As for any groups or people monitoring on BP, I'm unaware of any we could expect to help us. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:04, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::I think contacting Greenpeace is a very good idea. So is the idea of a paid editor counteracting BP and other corporate spin efforts over the long term, but reaching out to Greenpeace is something that can be done right away. | |||
::::::::::::::I'm interested in getting your opinion of the "BP Documentation Project," which Buster has created and which I have recently added the first entries. See ]. SlimVirgin, does creating such a page fall afoul of any of the numerous rules that govern Misplaced Pages? I thought it would be nice to have a kind of ongoing "journal" that editors can use to record the editing drama on that page and on the other BP-related pages. ] (]) 19:26, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::What I often do when I'm stumbling over something on WP is write to academics who've taken an interest in the subject. They're invariably helpful, though I've only ever asked for sources, rather than active input. But if people were to write to the top journalists who've followed BP, and any academics and lawyers who are monitoring the company, and ask who might be willing to act as a counterbalance on that page, they might suggest some names. | |||
::::::::::::::::I can't see how Buster7's page would break any rules. It makes sense to have a central location like that. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 19:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::Great, and that's a good idea about experts. The Buster page is really a kind of interim solution, as is the idea of having a to-do list. There needs to be more communication among editors whose sole goal in life isn't to make BP look good. I think people tend to focus on very specific things in dealing with a complex subject. I was focusing totally on the alternate energy section, and was really shocked by how it read like a BP press release, how its sourcing ''consisted'' of BP press releases, and how it omitted references to the "greenwashing" concerns. I was so focused on that, I didn't notice the real elephant in the room, the real issue on the BP page, which P pointed out to me: the fact that the section on the Gulf oil spill is shockingly skimpy. So I put an "expansion needed" tag on that section and you can see the comedy that followed, which I just delineated in the BP documentation project. ] (]) 20:06, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::I can suggest some names, give me a bit of time (Greenpeace is focused on the Arctic and was never really interested in the Gulf or BP, to my knowledge). Once we did get help, we still need the full-time editors for support, like the helpers BP finds itself lucky enough to have. Buster, Core, Gandy, Bink and I together are still only worth a part-time helper of that caliber. The editors I'm speaking of don't take days off and fight dirty (ie, they don't necessarily play by the rules, play cheap attack games and are ''very well connected''). '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 21:25, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::That's for sure. That's why keeping a written record of game-playing and hewing strictly to the rules on our part is very important. ] (]) 23:53, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::How about this for a laugh: ] is guarded by an employee who is supposedly on the hunt for factual errors. Yet the article said there are three "main business segments" when there are actually two, and that error was allowed to exist even though it was contradicted by the annual report, because it put BP in a favorable light. The article said that alternative energy is a "main business segment." It is not. ] (]) 15:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::It's a great example of how badly the article needs to be combed-through after a couple years' worth of corporate editing. Does Misplaced Pages have a program setup to help with such an analysis, or do we do this with our free time? Oh never mind, I know. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::A tiny section on "accusations of market manipulation" should really have been a substantial section on the ongoing regulatory proceedings (some of which have resulted in acknowledgments of guilt) that BP has been found in. The whole article is a mess. I think some of the damage may have been wrought by a certain editor who materialized recently and held himself out as a "mediator" even as he decapitated the sections of the article less friendly to BP. I'm in a flurry of activity now but I have let work slide and probably will be absenting myself soon. I hope you guys can keep it from being re-decapitated. ] (]) 19:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::We need you full time! I am also about to be called back to work. This is why indies cannot be expected to maintain balance on corporate controlled articles. Even if we found willing helpers from advocacy groups, they would still need the type of editing help you are doing now - and that help needs to be as full-time as Beagle and Arturo. Otherwise, the article will remain a mess. And yes, that last editor did a number on the page, and deserved the "shill" remark. So, we need an Arturo-from-Greenpeace, and we need a CREWE team, all organized and well-connected within Misplaced Pages just like the corporate side has, in order to maintain a proper encyclopedic article. But I don't see enough energy behind this idea to get it started. Only a few of us seem to acknowledge a problem. ''That's'' a problem. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 20:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::::And, it turns out, all of your work was reverted for being "" - the exact claims made against me in the very beginning by this same editor. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 20:47, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::::That's correct, and in the process restored a major inaccuracy, proving that he either didn't read the talk page or didn't care. Lamentably I am not going to be able to edit this article for a few days, and also, re this latest vandalism, I am unclear if I at this point would run into the anti-reversion rule. This was expected, and will demonstrate whether it possible to have a meaningful page or one that is essentially dictated by BP and by people with a clear involvement in the petroleum industry. ] (]) 20:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::::::So, once we have shown that clearly (I'm not sure how much clear it could be), actions need to be taken against tendentious editing/editors. I hear there are processes, once a solid case is made, to deal with this. Maybe SlimVirgin can guide us in this respect? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 21:01, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::::::The edits by that editor are tantamount to vandalism, but I am out of reverts for the day on that article. He has a lengthy block record, I see. ] (]) 21:11, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
===Break 2=== | |||
{{od}} The way to address these issues is by attracting fresh eyes, and the best way to do that is with RfCs. I've posted one about the template. Cut the remaining issues into bite-sized chunks, where you can ask a clear question ("Should the article say X, should it include Y?") and post a series of RfCs. But try not to do too many at once or people may get fed up. It's better to take the attitude that ], and be willing to work on this more slowly over a longer period. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:21, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Yes, that's a good idea. I had actually considered starting one on that navbox myself. Well, now you can see for yourself what the editors on that page have had to put up with over a period of many months. That's the kind of behavior that has driven them away. ] (]) 21:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::That may be a main point behind the behaviour: to drive those seeking balance away from the page and even from Misplaced Pages. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 21:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Rangoon is often a very determined editor in this regard. I added the book '']'' to ]. He removed it, so I , during which he argued that the book had nothing to do with the pharmaceutical industry in the UK (though it clearly does), but also acknowledged that he hadn't read it; I suggested that even a quick flick through one in a book store would show him that a lot of it was about the UK. In the end the consensus was to add it. I found out months later that he had then hidden the template on some of the articles it was being used on, by adding another template that had a show/hide parameter for the templates embedded within it. Also, he almost always engages in wholesale reverting, no matter how much text ends up being lost. I experienced similar issues with him at ]. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:46, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::He appears to be in breach of the three-revert rule with his latest flurry of edits. ] (]) 21:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::She (gender was revealed in ANI records) has been called out for tendentious editing since day 1, which was for some large, UK-based private school. From a quick glance at the GSK article talk page a while back, it appeared her editing behaviour is exactly the same there and on the BP page. SlimVirgin, are there ways in which Misplaced Pages can deal with this so that future editors don't have to waste a whole afternoon dealing with what's already been proven to be a POV editor? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 21:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Yes, he has violated 3RR. Best way forward is to let him know on his talk page, invite him to revert himself, and then (assuming he doesn't and that you want to pursue it) file a report at ]. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 21:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Someone beat me to it. ] (]) 21:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Is there a diff for that? I'm unaware of this. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 22:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Yes, see . I actually am not at three reverts myself, so I could undue him, but I hesitate to heat up the situation more. He or she really should revert him or herself. If not, I guess then someone can blow the whistle. I went to the edit warring board and frankly was dizzied by the procedures involved. ] (]) 22:20, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Exactly, and a point I brought up earlier, those noticeboards are geared for folks who already know how to play Wiki. Luckily, beloved Binksternet , . '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 22:22, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::He has been reported to AN/3RR; see . ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 22:21, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
The discussion with the BP corporate editor at is interesting, as the BP editor essentially takes responsibility for drafting grossly misleading text that gave disproportionate emphasis to BP Alternative Energy, but then has the ''chutzpah'' to say to me, "I would appreciate it if you could be less quick to criticize other editors in this manner." ] (]) 14:35, 30 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Yes, it is. I would like to call attention to another example of the unfair dynamics when editing alongside a PR team. What to the naked eye might look like simple, uncontested additions , is actually . I happened to have all of the references listed , so it wasn't too time-consuming, but this work would otherwise require immense research, really good connections or - more than likely - would not take place. It didn't take place with the tar sands section, that's for sure. That is hands-down BP's most hotly debated venture. The tar sands are the whole reason the Keystone XL is causing such an uproar, and the reason a top NASA researcher in charge of climate has just retired in order to protest this form of 'oil' extraction, saying that it is literally "game over for the climate". So to have BP writing their own assessment (the submitted draft covered the controversy with something like "The Cree nation doesn't like it") is heinous. The draft was submitted by Beagle, after arguing that Arturo had added too much information in his draft, and he then cut it in half, and it was added. (The original, longer version didn't have more content, just fluff.) | |||
:These examples show the amount of work required to deal with a full-time PR presence, and the result there being no review. BP PR requests are coming in at an alarming rate these days and the whole dynamic is just wrong - it is the result of failed policy whose origins I wonder about daily. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 23:05, 30 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::That's right, and the context you provided was extremely helpful, especially since it was placed in proximity to his sourcing suggestions. Note that when I initially came up with a couple of rather lame alternative suggestions, the BP p.r. man said they should be placed in a different discussion thread. BP has absolutely no right to make such a stricture in a discussion it starts on the talk page, and neither does any user. BP acts as if the company's sourcing recommendations are of a special class that need to be discussed separately. They are not. BP is quite forceful in pressing its agenda, I note. I think that editors need to be mindful of the fact that just because BP doesn't like a particularly aspect of the article doesn't mean that its feelings need to be assuaged. | |||
::One thing I had forgotten myself in addressing BP's latest missive is that the company is involved in litigation concerning all of the sourcing provided. That is a special note of caution for editors on the page. ] (]) 11:55, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
===Break 3=== | |||
needs a proper match. It is time to talk seriously about calling in a pro. I have names. What would you say, Slim Virgin? How did you envision this? Would they be asked to create an account perhaps, and then comment on the talk page in a similar way to the BP pr team? I think EPA whistleblower Hugh Kaufman and some enviro groups are needed asap. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 01:06, 7 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
:It depends on who you're thinking of approaching. If it's someone who is simply knowledgeable about these issues, they can create an account and edit like anyone else. If it's someone who has had real-life involvement or a dispute with BP, or who works for an organization that has, then it would be better if they were to stick to the talk page like the BP rep, per ]. I don't see that they would need to give their real name, if that's what you're thinking, so long as they don't edit the article if they have a COI. | |||
:What's important is that it be someone who could bring good sources to the table, rather than someone who would simply argue the issues. It wouldn't be good if the talk page were to turn into a battleground (more than it is already), with nothing but arguments back and forth. What is needed is someone who can say: "This is wrong, and here is a good source," or "this is not wrong, but it's slanted, so here is a better source." ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:43, 7 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Essentially what is needed is an Arturo for the 'other side'. Arturo brings not only arguments, but useable sources. If only arguments are brought forth, then it's OR, in my understanding. (Beyond this single case, could we also be thinking of how to adopt this response for other articles with similar issues? So that we don't have to reinvent the wheel... ) | |||
:: No one I'm thinking of would need to hide their identity, nor do they have a COI issue like suing BP, to my knowledge. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 23:53, 7 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
::And by "Arturo", I mean team. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 20:06, 8 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
== No consensus == | |||
Hi SlimVirgin, I wonder why you have moved ] to Timeline of the Turkic peoples (500–1300) . There was a discussion yes, but no consensus has been reached on moving the article. Cheers.] (]) 10:51, 25 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I've replied on your talk page. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Fixed overwide talk-page == | |||
I have fixed your talk-page, to fit within margins. The problem is wide wikilinks by ]. In general, I try to remove half the underbars and just "put quotation marks around all words" for the whole wikilink. -] 11:18, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks. :) ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Future with Lua speed == | |||
With the current ] software release, now ] is running almost 50% faster for small operations, such as the ] {cite_web} and such. I cannot emphasize enough how Lua can be lightning-fast, when processing text. For example, it will be possible to write ultra-smart Lua scripts to scan text for hundreds of trigger phrases which might signal violations of policies, such as ] terms "best product" or "greatest" whatever, or unprovable phrases such as "all people" or "the author believes" or "the person thought" or other ] text which should likely be removed from articles, as too difficult to verify what a person thinks, only what they said. Although the CS1 cite templates have been <s>somewhat</s> mostly excessively complex, they have revealed how Lua can process and spellcheck hundreds of possible options, at the rate of 180 templates per second (rather than 14/sec). We originally worried that having Lua spellcheck the 240 parameter names such as "author=" to reject "arthor=" would be slow, but instead the spellcheck caused no delays, and now we know that Lua could even quickly auto-correct the parameters to treat misspelled "pulbisher=" as being "publisher=" (with small warning <sup>" ]]"</sup>) to show common-sense citations for people who do not have time to fiddle with every tiny spelling error in template parameters. Lua could even auto-correct a parameter in ''every'' citation, and log the misspellings in tracking categories, with no delay in processing. The biggest delay, now, is to get more people to stop issuing "{{color|#991100|red-error messages}}" for every slight error, and instead, just have Lua auto-correct each template for trivial problems, and let editors focus more on writing the text which readers need to see. The prior markup-based templates were too slow to check for spellings, but Lua-based templates are so fast, they can even auto-correct simple "splling erors" and focus more on looking for trigger phrases which indicate dubious text in articles. -] 11:18, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for letting me know, Wikid. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
== A fresh approach == | |||
I can see you don't enjoy this antagonism any more than I do, and I can actually appreciate how you feel because this was how I felt last year. If we both want to work on these articles I don't see why either editor should feel "driven away". The simple fact is they are in a better state than they were a couple of years ago; wheatever differences there were they have improved, and we both played our part in that! It occurred to me this morning we were actually in agreement with many things up until we fell out last Spring. I think if we could reach some common ground on at least ''something'' we can get over this impasse. There will be other areas we will never agree on but perhaps we could devise a system for resolving our issues. | |||
This is what I am willing to bring to the peace table, at least to start with: | |||
#I would like you to accept the single-table with sortable columns. I have added a couple of section divides to ] so you can see the effect. I think any objective person would agree that it's better if a reader can search/sort the table as they would like, and a section divided table seems best able to provide that functionality. You are free to add as many section divides as you wish. | |||
#Removal of entries due to RS concerns. Obviously you can't expect me to leave stuff in the list if I disagree that the sourcing is insufficient. On the other hand I will not make the right call every single time, no-one does. My suggestion is that any sourced entries I remove, I will transfer to the talk page. If you agree then delete, if not we can get an opinion at the RS board, and in the spirit of collegiate editing we simply accept the outcome. | |||
#The images. Your response to this concerns me and I did not intend to make you feel uncomfortable. Nor do I wish to "objectify" the women. The point I was making in the discussion is that there is a perception that vegetarianism can have health repercussions, by causing muscle mass to decrease, breasts to shrink etc, and I ''do'' think images have a place in tackling that perception by showing sportsmen, Playboy models etc. Again I think we can reach a compromise on this: if you are uncomfortable with a particular image of a person, then feel free to swap it for another image of the same person. I won't oppose any image changes where the replacement is of the same person. | |||
#Demographic representation. Women are under-represented in the article (16 images to 25 men), and I think you are focusing on the wrong aspect of representation here. I don't agree that a porn star should be removed simply because she is a porn star because it is not our job to provide vegetarian role-models, but to try and represent vegetarians in a general sense. I do think we can tackle representation through the removal of redundancy though, but I think this needs to apply across the whole range of images: one Playboy Playmate is sufficient, one female pop star is sufficient etc. | |||
You are free to accept all or none of this, but if you can go along with some of it then it at least gives a common direction. ] (]) 14:01, 26 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for the suggestions, I've replied on the talk page. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
You made a comment on ]. We currently have a much-less developed category ]. I was wondering if you felt that having this other category changed your view on the issues, and if you might want to add additional comments.] (]) 20:38, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Hi John, thanks. I'm not sure what else there is to say. It just seems so obvious that whatever we do for men, we have to do for women. So either two categories (male novelists, female novelists), or ignore gender entirely and have one category. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:44, 27 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Articles == | |||
You asked on the AN board which articles I had written to Featured and Good standard. I have never written an article from "scratch", but the last one I personally led through a review was ], and it is mostly sourced to academic sources, books and contemporary newspaper articles. ] (]) 00:39, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks, it's a very good article about one of my favourite films. I was pretty stunned, though, to learn from the article that the political club was the Ku Klux Klan. It has made me look at all the characters very differently! ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:15, 28 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Have you not seen this? == | |||
His COI is well-documented . ] (]) 05:25, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Thanks for the close == | |||
Hi and thanks for closing ]. Even though such discussions , I think that RfCs deserve to be formally closed and would've therefore closed it myself with the same result if no one else had done so. Cheers. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">-- ]</span> (]) 08:53, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:You're welcome, Trev. It's fine for the people involved in an RfC to close it if the outcome is obvious. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:07, 30 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Good. I'll remember that sensible and pragmatic approach for the future. Thanks. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">-- ]</span> (]) 08:51, 30 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Clarification request == | |||
I have filed a request for clarification of ArbCom's decline of Will Beback's ban appeal. The clarification request is ]. You are being notified as you recently participated in discussion of this ban appeal. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 18:30, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Done == | |||
] (]) 20:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:That's excellent, thank you. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
== No hurry, an unrelated question == | |||
SlimVirgin, | |||
Apologies for asking so much of you lately. I don't know where else to ask this simple question. I am seeing this same excuse to delete good RS in another contentious article as well (]), but I would like your take on (of my work), and on the sources and content I had provided if you get an extra moment. ''Many thanks'', '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 23:56, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I would say this is a public-interest issue, not strictly a MEDRS one, so I would allow it, though I might write it differently. Having said that, I don't know the topic or the context. In your shoes, I would ask for an opinion on ], and perhaps also post an RfC on article talk. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:04, 30 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Great, thank you. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 00:07, 30 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::What is amazing is that there was no mention of GMOs in the article. ] (]) 00:27, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::What??? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 01:15, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::My friend Micha Peled shot, directed, edited and produced the documentary called ''Bitter Seeds'' about farmers in India growing GMO cotton and committing suicide because they cannot afford the seeds and the pesticides. I was part of what you might call the beta testers of the documentary because Micha said it needed to be shortened in length for public television but he did not know what to cut; he gathered his friends to watch it and suggest cuts. I bet you would be interested in seeing the film: , , , . ] (]) 00:44, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Thank you much, Binkster. I've heard a lot about this (Democracy Now covers these things). And now, in case you're interested, fantastic . '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 01:15, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::{{tps}} Binks, regarding "there was no mention of GMOs in the article": There is no mention of the term "GMO" but: The second sentence of the lead mentions "] (GE) seed" with a Wikilink, the first sentence of the second paragraph states "Monsanto was among the first to ] a plant cell" with a Wikilink to ], and also mentions ] with a Wikilink. Also the ''Seeds'' section has links at the top to ], ], and ]. These are all specific subtypes of GMO, don't these links and the content they're embedded in cover it? <code>]]</code> 01:26, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::I saw all of those links, but I did not consider them an adequate replacement for a wikilink to GMO, which the reader expects. ] (]) 01:54, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::I get it, a quick Google Scholar search on "Monsanto GMO" (and variants) shows tens of thousands of results, so you're reducing ] by including the term in the article. Makes sense to me, thanks for the explanation. <code>]]</code> 03:30, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
==Good advice== | |||
I definitely appreciate your advice, and if you ever feel I'm stepped over a line don't hesitate to let me know. One thing I can definitely tell you is that I wouldn't dream of exposing anybody's identity or engaging in a witch hunt over COI. Never have, never will. I made mention of one user's petroleum industry background, but that's because he talked about it on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 00:08, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Hi, you're welcome, and I know you wouldn't do that. I just think extra caution is a good idea when feelings are running high, so that everyone survives unscathed. :) ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:15, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::@ Core. ''He talked about it on Misplaced Pages''. Was that the mention by someone, I don't remember who, that had worked for Shell? I remember thinking, at the time, that it was a surprising revelation. Was the reveletion at the BP page or elsewhere? I like to keep my ducks in a row. ```]<small>]</small> 13:03, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Yes, that's right. I forget offhand where I read that. I believe it was in one of the archives. ] (]) 13:08, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::I haven't looked yet but I think it was "Corporate M'. (Just cheecking my memory). ```]<small>]</small> 13:55, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::No, it wasn't. It was someone else, a longtime contributor. ] (]) 14:05, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Lines of text == | |||
Someone is having another go at removing "A citation is a line of text" from the beginning of ]; if memory serves (and it may not, of course), you originally wrote that sentence, so you might like to comment at ]. (not watching this page) ] (]) 02:04, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Suggest ] (rather than COI/Conflict of Interest)== | |||
If I may let me just plant some seeds of thought and see if they take root here..... | |||
*I think The focus of ] looks for the solution in the wrong place. It focusses on the "Interest' of the various editors involved at an article. But 'Interest' is hard to discern, and even harder to prove. I'm a liberal Democrat. Admittedly, while I keep it in check, my hidden 'Interest' is to promote my political philosophy wherever I can. An Environmentalist does the same. A Christian, a Muslim, an American Indian...does the same. We are all a bundle of personal 'Interests' that we unknowingly promote as we wander around WP and do what we do. I think trying to wrestle with "What is this editors 'Interest'" misses the point. | |||
*When we observe fellow editors over time we get a feeling for what their 'Objective' is. "Why are they editing this article and what is their 'Objective'?" At each point of editing the question can be asked, "What is the 'Objective' of THIS edit? What is the 'Objective', the intention, of this editor making this edit at this time? '''Is it to hide, or to inform? Is it to broaden the readers knowledge on the subject or to restrict and hide verifyable facts which may change a readers mind.''' What is the 'Objective'? Over time, the 'Objective' becomes more obvious. On the other hand, 'Interest' can be concealed forever. | |||
*The editors and the readers may have differing 'Objectives'. The reader comes to Misplaced Pages for information. The influenced-by-pay operative, comes to Misplaced Pages to mold the article by providing limited information (Pro) or, by implementing negative, unverifyable subject matter (Con). Strict scutiny by all volunteers is required. '''Professional editors are paid to be diligent, to be on-guard. Misplaced Pages editors are not.''' | |||
*It is my opinion that if we WP editors that are concerned about the rising number of Paid-to-Edit situations can shift from "That is a Conflict of Interest (COI)" to "That is a Conflict of Objective (COO), we will be on more stable ground. An editors footprint precedes him. An editors interests are too many to really matter. but an editors objective, over time becomes apparent. | |||
* I would appreciate any comments. Hopefully the good ones will come first. It's always nice to get some support for an idea before the naysayers descend and pick at whatever life an idea might have. But...that is another issue. ```]<small>]</small> 13:47, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
::That's a thoughtful piece, Buster, I think you're on to something. You know, one can have a COI as well as a COO. They're not mutually exclusive. ] (]) | |||
:::I like your take. On a possibly related note, I realized yesterday that my edits of late make me appear to have a fixation on toxicity - I could be pegged as having a clear POV. But from my point of view, I'm noticing missing information that slants articles by the omission, and being a good Wiki editor, I add it. But we all say that! So rather than to judge my motives, which can't be accurately done, judging whether my edits "hide or inform" is a wonderful guide-stick, for me and those observing my contribs. Of course, to judge this, one has to have a grasp on the subject matter as it is reflected in RS. For example, if I add to the BP page that oil spill clean up workers and gulf residents are bleeding from various orifices, someone unfamiliar with the story may see red flags. (A recent similar addition to the BP page didn't over very well.) However, those familiar with Al Jazeera's reporting on the spill know that people have already died from chemical poisoning, and to mention only "bleeding from their breasts, nose and anus" (an oft-cited quotation from the ) is ''actually whitewashing'' the story. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 20:43, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
== violation detected == | |||
Someone made the page ] with the dab "(band)" just to get around naming the page ] because that title is salted from being made due to them being a non notable band. Can you delete and salt the ] page so this sort of childish fandom can be put to rest, please? Not to mention the user that made this page was banned for socking. {{unsigned|69.225.135.97}} | |||
:Hi, just glancing at it, there seem to be a few sources that might be reliable from WP's perspective. Your best bet, if you disagree (and please check the sources carefully first) is to nominate the article for deletion. See ] for how to do this. It's easier than it looks; just clunk through the instructions and you'll get there. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 22:44, 1 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Book review (and excerpt) I think you will enjoy == | |||
''''. ] (]) 11:34, 2 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Talkback == | |||
{{talkback|Talk:List_of_vegetarians#RfC:_Images_of_women}} ] (]) 15:58, 3 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
:And again.... ] (]) 02:46, 6 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
==Tabulation of arbcom positions== | |||
I am working to outline arbcom positions here with difs. If you wish to add to it. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:22, 4 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
==What article does this make you think of?== | |||
*''(The difference between a "Complaint Dept." and "Customer Service")'' - The difference is much like the difference between the old U.S. War Department and the newer U.S. Department of Defense. By pretending that customers don't have complaints and countries don't make war, they make it sound like we live in a fairy land filled with care bears who give strangers flowers all the time. ```]<small>]</small> 15:31, 6 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
==Re:A request== | |||
Hi Middayexpress, I'm currently in the process of trying to bring FGM to good article (GA) status, with a view to possibly bringing it to featured article (FA) status. This means everything in it has to be very accurate, the content has to be fully policy compliant, the reference/citation formats have to be consistent, and there can't be any plagiarism, too-close paraphrasing, or too-far straying from the source material. | |||
FGM is a subject that crosses many scholarly boundaries: medicine, law, sociology, human rights, political science, anthropology, ancient history, current affairs. For each of these subjects, we have to use appropriate sources, which makes it a harder article to work on than most. We have to use ancient historians for the ancient history section; medical sources (per ]) for the medical section; political scientists and human rights experts for other sections; journalists for current affairs, and so on. Sometimes there are FGM specialists we can trust who have written about all these areas in the scholarly literature. But we have to be careful that they're using their sources properly, and often they're not. For example, several of the sources have misinterpreted the classical sources, so when that happens, we have to return to the best sources available (the sources' sources, and if necessary the sources' sources' sources). | |||
When I start tentatively trying to fix these things, you revert, including reverting to inconsistent reference formats and misdescribed source material. This has made article development almost come to a halt. | |||
Can I ask that, instead of the current situation, you let me fix the article to GA standard, then you bring your sources, and we work together to weave them into the narrative? That's easily done, and in fact it's a lot easier to do that once a good structure is in place. The current situation is that we have an article that isn't good, improvements are reverted, but then some good material is added to the bad version, which means we end up with a mish-mash that is very hard to fix. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 22:27, 8 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Hi SlimVirgin. As I already explained to you on that article's talk page, if the number of reverts between us were to be compared, you'd have exponentially more; so it's a moot point. That said, I've explained in some detail there what exactly is the issue. That includes your complete removal of virtually all information on FGM being practiced outside of Africa. The article cannot possibly reach good article status unless this issue, among many others, is first addressed. Regards, ] (]) 22:53, 8 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
::The issue is not the number of reverts; it's the misuse of sources and reverting when they're removed. It's writing things like "according to the WHO," the practice is rooted in a desire to control female sexuality, when every source says this, not only the WHO. It's ignoring what the sources says and adding your own views; adding material that's already in the article; or using tertiary sources (A reporting B reporting C reporting D), instead of C or D directly. | |||
::I'm willing to work with you on this, so I suggest we start with a clean slate. It would help a lot if you post your sources and edits on talk first, so that problems with them are spotted in advance, then we can find better sources for the same material, if necessary. | |||
::As for the plagiarized material (added by one of the students), you've alluded several times to it being restored, but it can't be; the plagiarism was too extensive, and quite a bit of it was repetitive anyway. It was written as a student assignment. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:23, 9 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::This is really pointless. You're basically repeating the same arguments you made on the article's talk page and which were already addressed there, as well as in the earlier discussions you archived. Kindly direct any future responses there as well, as I have it on my watchlist. Thanks, ] (]) 00:30, 9 May 2013 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 14:59, 13 December 2024
This Wikipedian is deceased. Respectful comments of remembrance may be left below. |
Archives |
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2013: Jan · Feb · Mar · Apr · May · Jun · Jul · Aug · Sep · Oct · Nov · Dec |
Action | Count |
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Edits | 166395 |
Edits+Deleted | 177980 |
Pages deleted | 3279 |
Revisions deleted | 146 |
Logs/Events deleted | 1 |
Pages restored | 479 |
Pages protected | 2386 |
Pages unprotected | 483 |
Protections modified | 376 |
Users blocked | 1417 |
Users reblocked | 20 |
Users unblocked | 251 |
User rights modified | 21 |
Users created | 5 |
RIP
I've been notified by Sarah's family that she passed away after a long illness and have offered to them to post the news here. If it needs to be posted elsewhere, will an admin please do so. Sarah was an inspiration to me and over the years became a good wiki friend. Though I knew she was ill, she never complained, she continued to edit right up to the end, and yet I suspected it was often difficult for her. She has a strong body of work here, and I know from chatting with her that she was deeply committed to the project. I'm unbearably sad. Victoria (tk) 23:58, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
- For historical record... An obit for Sarah was published community wide on Wiki on June 27, 2021
- One more for historical record...A published obituary by Saskatoon Funeral Home states, Although Sarah was an accomplished journalist, few people knew of her first love, which was working with the international website Misplaced Pages, the mostly volunteer, online encyclopedia, which she joined in its formative years, shortly after its start-up in 2002. Sarah began editing Misplaced Pages in 2004 under the nom de plume, Slim Virgin, sometimes shortened to SV in more polite Misplaced Pages circles. She is greatly missed. Atsme 💬 📧 02:42, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- I know we didn't always agree but I have a lot of respect for Sarah's many valuable contributions and am sorry to hear this. (t · c) buidhe 00:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- ...Moneytrees🏝️ 00:04, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you. Thank you for all the work you've done, all the stuff you've written that I wouldn't have otherwise known about, helping out with the Elisa unblock and being patient when I was taking long getting the information for it... that was one of the first times where I really interacted with the community and you showed the nice side of it, you helped me understand something I hadn't. Moneytrees🏝️ 01:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Oh no -- I'm so sorry to hear 😢 Terrible news. Vaticidalprophet 00:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- This news is heartbreaking and I am devastated. SV's value to the 'pedia is immense and she cannot be replaced. My deepest sympathies to her friends and family. MarnetteD|Talk 00:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Saddened beyond measure. El_C 00:30, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- May Mors guide her safely to the afterlife. Ealdgyth (talk) 00:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- :( RIP —Locke Cole • t • c 00:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- What devastating news. Sarah was a wonderful person and an irreplaceable Wikipedian. Sarah's work set an extraordinarily high bar—see the long list of excellent articles she developed at User:SlimVirgin. The barnstars on her user page shows how the community will miss her. Farewell Sarah. Johnuniq (talk) 00:59, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm incredibly sorry to hear this. Mackensen (talk) 01:03, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- 😔😔😔 SQL 01:05, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Terribly saddened to hear this news. Sarah leaves an excellent body of work that will continue to be read by millions of people in years to come, and I cannot think of a more fitting legacy. Risker (talk) 01:28, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- My condolences to her family and anyone else that knew her. You will be missed --DannyS712 (talk) 01:34, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- So sorry to hear this. Sarah was such a dedicated, prolific, longterm Wikipedian. Best wishes to her family and friends. Softlavender (talk) 01:37, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is a truly immeasurable loss for this project. SlimVirgin is responsible for writing the bulk of what is currently our biographies of living persons policy, which has proven to be one of this project's most important content policies, as well as our conflict of interest guideline. In this project's early days, she also contributed to the development of core content policies such as no original research and verifiability. It would be quite fair to say that the success of Misplaced Pages so far is a direct consequence of the fundamental principles that SlimVirgin was instrumental to codifying. In other words, Misplaced Pages might not exist in the ubiquitous form it does today if not for SlimVirgin. We have lost one of our very best editors. Mz7 (talk) 01:47, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Talk about a titan of an editor. Besides shaping some of the core policies and guidelines of the project, her reviewed work (GA+FL) has over 800,000 views in the last 30 days alone. It reflects such a range of interests with everything from Christian Scientists to Genetial Mutilation to political scandals show just how talented she was. It also shows how willing she was to do meaningful and deep work even in subjects that are hard to read and write about both emotionally (see also her work on Night) and because of the reaction of others (including those whose values don't align with Misplaced Pages). What a loss for our project. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:21, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- A huge loss. For any new Wikipedian, it's just a matter of time before you become familiar with the name SlimVirgin -- if not her impressive article work, then her outsized influence within and upon the project. One of the few "household names" of Misplaced Pages who will surely be among the first inducted to a Hall of Fame should we ever set one up. — Rhododendrites \\ 01:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is terrible news. Sarah was a great contributor to Misplaced Pages, and a respected member of the community. My best wishes to her family and friends in this difficult time. Nick-D (talk) 02:00, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Very sad -- Sarah and I didn't always see eye to eye but she always made me think, and our last exchanges were very cordial. My condolences to her family and friends. Ian Rose (talk) 02:14, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- A great loss to the community here, it must be more so for those who knew them in person. CMD (talk) 02:36, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I knew she wasn't well, but had no idea she had so little time left; she worked so long even when it was hard for her. Great sadness. Great loss. Condolences to her friends and family. Littleolive oil (talk) 02:39, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- My condolences to her family and friends. I interacted with Sarah on only a few occasions, but found her extremely insightful and helpful each time. Of course, I know her better for her reputation as a tireless content creator—a huge loss to the community. Aza24 (talk) 02:41, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- She wrote many of the best and most important articles on all of Misplaced Pages, as well as several personal favorites. A true loss. CaptainEek ⚓ 02:44, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sarah was one of those Wikipedians that everyone around here knew. But from where our paths crossed, I did not realize I could only see the tip of the iceberg that represents her foundational, exceptionally prolific, and diverse contributions. Love. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Awwww .. drat. Sarah helped me so much with understanding policies when I first started. This is such a HUGE loss to the project. My heart and prayers to her family and friends - I am so sorry. — Ched (talk) 02:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- We never interacted personally, but I am grateful for her extensive contributions — her passion and varied interests are reflected in some of the most well-written articles on this site. I've always associated her name with kindness and good faith. Her death is a great loss for the encyclopaedia, the greater community, and her family and friends. My condolences to anyone who knew her personally. Sean Stephens (talk) 03:01, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- One of the true leaders of English Misplaced Pages. If her family and friends should read this goodbye thread, I hope they get a sense of how respected she was amongst us, how important her contributions were to our community, and how enduring will prove her edits and assertions to be. Her life, enthusiasm and energy have created vibrations which will echo as long as English is spoken (and perhaps beyond). BusterD (talk) 04:06, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- So sad; a big loss. Condolences to all her family and friends. Johnbod (talk) 04:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- She was generous, insightful, and fair. A great loss. So sorry to see this. SPECIFICO talk 04:20, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm so sorry... Eventually, soon, we all will be together. If the fates allow. Until then, Sarah.. - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:22, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- We’ve lost another brave, strong, woman from our midst. Way too soon. I am going to miss her intelligence, insight, courage and the brilliant light she brought to the world. Rest in peace, dear one. Montanabw 04:32, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- This project will not be the same without you. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:57, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sad to hear of this news. Deepest condolences to her family and friends. Nil Einne (talk) 04:58, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Such sad news. RIP. Graham87 05:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Very sad to hear this news. You will be missed. Mkdw 06:23, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am really sorry to hear this.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:49, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sad news indeed. RIP, and many thanks for all your valuable contributions down the years. — Amakuru (talk) 07:30, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Goodbye Sarah. I hope you knew how much you were appreciated; not just for the massive contributions you made to the project's content and processes, but for just being here, being you, and being a part of this very weird community. Your absence will be felt for a very long time. --Xover (talk) 07:34, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- A sad, sad loss. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 07:43, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Very sad to hear the news. PhilKnight (talk) 07:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am very sad to hear this. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Very sorry to hear this, RIP. Mike Peel (talk) 08:26, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Very sorry to hear of this. Sarah, you will very much be missed. Seraphimblade 08:30, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- You always knew what Sarah ("SlimVirgin") thought, yet she never left people feeling upset or insulted. One of the most well-known personalities on Misplaced Pages. My thoughts are with all her family and friends, online and in the real world. AGK ■ 08:40, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Very sad. My condolences to your family and friends. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:43, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Heartbreaking news. Like many others here, I did not know she was so ill. Bishonen | tålk 08:47, 9 May 2021 (UTC).
- Sorry to hear this news. My condolences to family and friends. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 08:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- You see these notices once in awhile, and maybe you vaguely might remember the username; or maybe you remember seeing the username at some discussion once. Maybe they were a regular editor at some article or WikiProject you might have come across. Or even a regular at some xfd or other collaboration page. Then there is SV. Just off the top of my head, I don't think there is much here on Misplaced Pages, including many fundamental concepts which we all tend to take for granted, which she wasn't involved in the discussion of. Regardless of whether one may have agreed or disagreed with her perspective, we are all the poorer here, for this loss. I offer my best wish: Vaya con Dios - May peace be with you.- jc37 08:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am so very sorry to hear this news. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Our project was better for your presence, Sarah. Rest in peace. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 09:41, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is a very sad day for the project. Sarah was one of those people who always had the best interests of Misplaced Pages and its readers in mind through whatever she did - and she did an awful lot more than most. Thryduulf (talk) 11:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sincere condolences. The world is worse without you. Pundit|utter 11:13, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- So sorry to hear the news - Misplaced Pages has lost one of its giants.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:24, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Such sad news. My condolences to her friends and family. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 12:57, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Damn that's sad. Sarah was Good People. Guy (help! - typo?) 13:26, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- NO! This is horrid news. I had nothing but pleasant communication with Sarah in the past. May her family and friends find comfort. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:32, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Condolences to her family, and to those editors who knew her well. Sarah was truly one of the most important contributors to this project. GirthSummit (blether) 13:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- flowers, no words yet --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:55, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Absolutely one of the best, Condolences to family and the WP Community. A rare bright star. ―Buster7 ☎ 14:01, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- My sincerest condolences. I'm very sad to hear this. Sarah and I both started editing here in 2004. We've known and worked with each other for nearly 17 years. I will miss her. Paul August ☎ 14:06, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- My sincere condolences. I was shocked to hear the news. I remember bumping into SlimVirgin online many a times since 2008. RIP. Rehman 14:17, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Dear god. Heartbreaking, really. My deepest sympathy to her family and friends. Sarah, you have left a truly distinguished body of work here. Peace eternal. Antandrus (talk) 14:20, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Rest in peace Sarah. -- KTC (talk) 14:21, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I had an interaction with Sarah about WP:NLT. Only an hour after I made my five-bullet point suggestion she improved the page with it, actively helping to resolve any doubts. Seems I forgot to thank you back then, but I am grateful for that and naturally for everything else you did for Misplaced Pages. Sarah, you will be missed. Rest in peace. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 14:25, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm stunned...When SV first asked me if she should apply for adminship, about six months after I'd done so in 2004, I told her that she'd have no problem, but that she might want to not do so, because she cared too much about Misplaced Pages. I worried that she'd burn out and be constantly attacked by fools. I wasn't wrong about the latter; I'm glad I was wrong about the former. Farewell Sarah. --jpgordon 14:27, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Disbelief and sadness. Sarah's soul shone through her awesome work here. Peace to her family and friends. ---Sluzzelin talk 14:31, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- My condolences to her family. BOZ (talk) 14:45, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for all your hard work: you left the project in much better shape than you found it. –xeno 15:31, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Very sad news, condolences to her family. -- LuK3 (Talk) 15:43, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Damn! Damn! Damn! Sarah was a good mentor to me when I started editing, and was the first Wikipedian to ask me to stand for admin. I will miss her and her good sense and commitment to the project. My condolences to her family and friends. - Donald Albury 15:50, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Totally devastated by our loss here.--MONGO (talk) 16:16, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- No. No, no, no, no. BD2412 T 16:32, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I was literally dumbstruck when I saw this. What a devastating and profound loss to this project and community. Sarah was one of the editors I interacted with on a regular basis and took comfort in seeing. I second Mz7's comments. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:19, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- We never interacted much, but I am sad to hear this. Thank you for improving the article on Ezra Pound. Scorpions13256 (talk) 19:12, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Very sorry to hear this. My condolences to her family and friends. Bastun 19:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Rest In Peace Slim Virgin. Heaven earned another angel today. Shoot for the Stars 💫 (talk) 19:37, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Just heard about this awful news. As wikipedian and Gender Gap Task Force team member I am so greatful for her work. A big loss for all.--Camelia (talk) 20:02, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Oh, this is awful. She was the best of our best. Her work getting WP:BLP made and adopted as a core policy -- a task I would have though impossible -- was a greater accomplishment than most any other editor on this great and important and project has ever had. And that's not considering all her other accomplishments. I was very fond of her personally and I'm just in grief. Herostratus (talk) 20:05, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- May she rest in peace. My prayers and thoughts are with her family at this time. Dreamy Jazz 20:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- She was an exceedingly dedicated Wikipedian. Sad to hear of her passing. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sad news, an awesome contributor to how Misplaced Pages works and a great teacher. Her influence will continue. . . dave souza, talk 21:12, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Very sad news. She was so active and helpful and accomplished so much. A real loss. Rest in peace. Crossroads 21:35, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I will miss your passion and your perception. The community is much the pooer for your loss. Yngvadottir (talk) 22:01, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Terrible news. Although I'm sorry I didn't really know Sarah, her dedication to the project was undeniable. My deepest sympathy to her family and friends, here and elsewhere. Miniapolis 22:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- What a terrible loss. RIP. the wub "?!" 22:38, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Tears. Tony (talk) 00:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Oh, no. Sarah was wonderful, she did a lot for this project. --GRuban (talk) 00:15, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- I have always had immense respect for her work; this is very very sad. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:30, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Dumbstruck. Rest in peace. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Very sorry to hear this. We often disagreed, but her passion and commitment to Misplaced Pages's values was beyond question.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- So sorry to hear this, her ability and dedication is undeniable. Female genital mutilation is a fitting memorial, the best treatment of the topic (of similar length) that you will find anywhere on the internet. --NSH001 (talk) 02:03, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- terrible news. saddened to hear this. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Really sorry to receive this news. I do not believe we ever corresponded on here, but, for many a year, I observed your edits, citing of policies etc., and I attempted to tutor myself to a degree from them (even when I was almost fumbling on here to earn acceptance). We ALL have admiration for you, and your contributions, and I hope I speak for many when I say we will continue your work and strive to uphold your standards.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:48, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- R.I.P. You've helped lots of people in this world. 🌎 Thank you. CyberTroopers (talk) 03:37, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- We did not always agree, but Slim was one of the first Wikipedians with whom I interacted, and I always admired her passion and energy. May you be sheltered in the wings of the L-rd, Sarah. -- Avi (talk) 04:15, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Shocked and saddened to hear this. I can't imagine her not being here any more. We didn't always get on, but we had a lot of mutual respect for each other. I was honoured to have chatted with her on Skype more than once - Alison 05:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Heartbreaking news. You had a lot of impact in our community SlimVirgin. May you rest in peace sister. Anthere (talk) 08:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- I have admired Sarah’s work from too great a distance. My heartfelt condolences to her family and her many friends. Patrick. Pdebee. 09:04, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Missed. --Andreas JN466 12:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- A very good administrator, whose wise counsel will be sorely missed. 95.148.229.85 (talk) 12:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- It only a month or two since we had such a lovely chat, and I am so sorry to see this news. I wish we hadn’t had such a falling out a few years ago, but I’m so glad we made up later. Condolences to her family. - SchroCat, editing from 109.249.185.62 (talk) 12:29, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- That we shall die we know. That our days should be so now drawn out in a lesser light... :( --Hammersoft (talk) 12:37, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Just terrible news. A huge loss to all. Ceoil (talk) 12:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Such very sad news regarding someone I truly admired. Sarah was an inspiration to many, including me. RIP, Sarah. --Rosiestep (talk) 15:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- What a terrible loss! When I first started editing Misplaced Pages in 2009, she seemed like a towering figure, and her thoughtful words were a great inspiration to me. Cullen Let's discuss it 15:32, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Incredibly sad to learn of her death. Condolences to her family and friends. She will be sorely missed. She was one of the best writers on the project and also had a major impact on several of Misplaced Pages's core policies. Her legacy will live on for many years to come. Sydney Poore/FloNightUser talk:FloNight 15:34, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Very sad. For me, she was an inspirational editor. Alexbrn (talk) 15:57, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm retuning, briefly, to write this short message. This news is such sad news. Sarah and I had a good relationship and we communicated on email, frequently, the last being around a month ago. This world is all the more better for her work on WP, but is now at a huge loss because of her passing. She really was one of a kind and I will miss her terribly. (Editor formally known as Cassianto) 2A02:C7F:869:5600:F57C:8E5C:A8F4:E00F (talk) 16:05, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Very sad news. You will be sorely missed. – SD0001 (talk) 16:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is very sad, we and the world lost a talented woman. :-( My sympathies are with the family for their loss.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 16:17, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- She was guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness. As we all should be. Viriditas (talk) 16:19, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Am so sad to hear the news. May her family find strength in these messages of condolence. Mjroots (talk) 16:33, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- One of the most important Wikipedians ever – this place won't be the same without her.-- P-K3 (talk) 16:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- I appreciate SlimVirgin's contributions to Misplaced Pages editorial policy. As it happened, many of the recommendations she made proved to be well aligned with the Misplaced Pages community spirit and have become part of the culture. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is devastating to hear, but I hope her family knows the legacy SV leaves behind and how different this place would have been without her. Alyo (chat·edits) 20:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm really sad to hear this. Sarah was a wonderful force for good at Misplaced Pages, and I simply cannot imagine who can replace the work she did. To her family and friends: we will miss her here. -Darouet (talk) 20:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Oh my, what sad news. SV made a such huge contribution to our policies, articles and community that it is hard to think of WP without her. -- Colin° 22:23, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am very saddened to hear this news. She was a fantastic boon to this project, and, dare I say without sounding too conceited, through it a boon for all humanity. She will be terribly missed. oknazevad (talk) 23:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am genuinely shocked to see this section. We never interacted before, but I have seen you many times at discussions and page histories. Rest in peace, SlimVirgin. You will be missed. aeschyIus (talk) 00:28, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- One of my few interactions was a rough wild one a long time ago (VNT moment) The big picture is someone who has devoted an immense amount to do an immense amount of good for an immensely good project. Me and more importantly the world thanks you!North8000 (talk) 00:57, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is very sad news. There are so many conversations we won't be able to finish. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:25, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- An editor and administrator whose passion and conviction for everything we ought to stand for was second to none. She was such an integral part of our community. Misplaced Pages will never be the same without SlimVirgin. Kurtis 05:36, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- She joined back in 2004 when many were still wholly positive about the internet as a transformative force. Yet Slim knew the project would need structure to prevent decay once the pioneer spirt of the earliest editors began to wane. Hence she created much of our core policy and enduring culture. She may have made a few mistakes, but overall her compassion and intelligence elevated the whole Misplaced Pages and her energy lifted up many editors. Not sure if she was Tzadeykes but she seemed the closest to it of anyone I've met. FeydHuxtable (talk) 07:02, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- A very sad day. Misplaced Pages lost its best editor. My condolences to those who knew her in real life. --Guest2625 (talk) 07:49, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Rest in peace. — Moe Epsilon 09:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- We were at opposite poles on topics like the I/P conflict, yet her true voice, in correspondence, amiable and acute, breathed integrity as did her scrupulous editing. She was a foundational coign of the edifice we tinker with, a craftswoman of the highest order. We shared mutual friends and a love of classical Greek, and therefore, dear Sarah, as the rose-fingered moon lingers over our maimed landscape, one can only grieve, recalling Sappho:
- οὐδ' ἴαν δοκίμωμι προσίδοισαν φάος ἀλίω
- ἔσσεσθαι σοφίαν πάρθενον εἰς οὐδένα πω χρόνον
- τεαύταν. Nishidani (talk) 10:05, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- οὐδ' ἴαν δοκίμωμι προσίδοισαν φάος ἀλίω
- Very sad news. Rest in peace. ~ HAL333 15:22, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Any time I saw her around, it was making the place better. A good editor and a good person! A lamentable loss. jp×g 16:19, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- So many great editors lost recently, sigh. Sad for this loss. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Very sorry to hear this... rest in peace. ~ANM🐁 T·C 16:30, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- The project genuinely won't be the same without Slim, she was a force for good here on Misplaced Pages in so many ways. I'm sorry for her family and friends, and also enormously appreciative that Victoria was able to let us know what has happened. Nick (talk) 18:27, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry to hear this. SlimVirgin will be missed. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 18:34, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Oh my gosh, so sorry about this. I didn't have the chance to interact much with her over the years, but I really respected her a lot. This is so sad. Moisejp (talk) 01:41, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- 😿 we'll miss you dear. gobonobo 02:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm utterly stunned by this news. My condolences to her family and her friends. As a fellow community member, I mourn: Sarah was brilliant and irreplacable, to say the least, and I don't think Misplaced Pages will ever be the same. Requiescat in pace. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 02:29, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I didn't interact with Sarah at all, really, but she was one of those names that I always saw around. We'll all miss her. –Fredddie™ 03:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Oh no. I don't remember too many users from my days actively editing, but I remember you. And of all days, today I found a typo and fixed it, after not editing for years. And that led me to check my old watchlist on a whim. Which led me to Jimbo's talk page. And that led me here. I suppose if I hadn't known I wouldn't be sad, but if I hadn't known you would still be gone. I'll hug my loved ones extra tight tonight. Chuy1530 (talk) 05:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- {{sad beyond words}} Good and dedicated 'pedians are rare indeed. They have become even rarer. -- Ohc 14:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Flyer22, Yoninah, and now Sarah taken from us within a mere six months? Perhaps COVID had nothing to do with this, but this is truly a plague year if all three of these supremely talented Wikiwomen, women who made not only the project but everyone they worked with better, have succumbed. "O proud Death / What feast is toward in thine eternal cell / That thou so many princesses at once / So bloodily hast struck?"
Sarah I will remember in particular for her willingness to not only create articles about such difficult-to-categorize but undeniably notable subjects like Black Twitter and Glasgow effect, a challenge I've taken up as well so I can relate, but doing them right and doing them well. All of us would do well to live up to her example. Daniel Case (talk) 14:17, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I forgot to mention that, like Yoninah, she was someone I looked forward to one day meeting in person at some wikigathering, and now I never will ... only perhaps some sunny day ... Daniel Case (talk) 14:22, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- And I think she should not be allowed to pass without mentioning one more great thing she did: cleaning up Murder of Meredith Kercher from the POV/walled-garden mess it had become, one of our worst moments IMO, a task that even Jimbo couldn't get going. Daniel Case (talk) 21:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- I forgot to mention that, like Yoninah, she was someone I looked forward to one day meeting in person at some wikigathering, and now I never will ... only perhaps some sunny day ... Daniel Case (talk) 14:22, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am sorry for your family's loss. My best regards, Geraldshields11 (talk) 16:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I came back from a short holiday to hear of this terrible news! What a loss for Misplaced Pages. I remember when I first stumbled across your user page when I was a newbie, and I was amazed at how much of an impact a single user could have on the project. It was very inspiring to me and I honestly give you some credit for influencing me to stick it through and see what I was capable of. When I think about the biggest names on Misplaced Pages, yours is among the first to come mind. Your contributions to some of our most critical content policies and guidelines, dedication to closing the gender gap, and of course the superbly written content you authored yourself – all combined must surely amount to an incalculable impact, one that very few editors have ever or will ever match. While you and I only interacted but so much, just knowing you're not here feels like there's a gaping hole in the Misplaced Pages I know and love. It won't be the same without you, but where we are today is so, so much better because of you. Rest in peace, Sarah <3 — MusikAnimal 22:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- SV was and always will be one of the Titans of Misplaced Pages. SilkTork (talk) 09:13, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Such tough news. An awesome editor here. SlimVirgin was always polite in disputes a great attribute of hers and for all editors to be inspired by and follow, she also was a great follower, respecter and improver of wikipedia policy. RIP. Govindaharihari (talk) 17:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm so sad. SV was someone I looked up to. —valereee (talk) 20:58, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sarah mentored my early days as a Misplaced Pages editor. She was a gentle, forceful, and inspiring teacher. (SlimVirgin and I were the top editors in developing Chelsea Manning – a very unusual digital Ménage à trois.) – S. Rich (talk) 22:01, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Rest in Peace. We will miss you. TigerScientist Chat > contribs 01:37, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- So sad to hear this. A huge loss for the community and for the project. mgiganteus1 (talk) 01:41, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm very sorry to hear about SV's passing. She was a valuable editor and individual on Misplaced Pages, and will be missed by us all. Godspeed. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:50, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I will miss Sarah every day; she was special, brilliant, and crucial to so many of us...I will never forget her; I am devastated at news of her loss...Modernist (talk) 01:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I can't find words. I hope her family appreciates the positive impact she had on us, the encyclopedia, and the world. A loss for us all. — Wug·a·po·des 00:05, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you, for all you did here. You are missed. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:46, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Condolences to her families, offline and on. Jclemens (talk) 01:38, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thinking more about this, it reminds me of the Mother's Rosario arc of Sword Art Online, where the most powerful online warrior turns out to be that of a terminally ill youth, for whom virtual reality is her only escape from the harrowing and painful real world. In that story, the dying girl succeeds in both making her impression on that online world, and concealing her struggle from the world at large. In the fictional world, that concealment was incomplete, and the online world came to mourn that protagonist's impending passing. In this real world, however, it apepars Sarah's concealment was not breached, and the collective accolade is only posthumos, rather than a sendoff befitting a champion who had made her mark on this virtual world. More's the pity. Jclemens (talk) 05:34, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- Vale, Sarah. You will be missed. It was always a pleasure to interact with you and I can only imaging the joy you brought to the people around you. Rest in peace, Tom (LT) (talk) 04:42, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is sad news indeed, so many have been lost this year. May her brightness shine alongside all the stars in the sky. Netherzone (talk) 21:12, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- To the editor whose picture you should see when you look up the idiom Standing on the shoulders of giants in the encyclopedia: thank you for your contributions to the community. You may never become a household name, but you have affected the lives of hundreds of millions of people with your actions, first with the fledgling policies that became part of the pillars that underpin our success, and second with your writing and community work on gender equality and coverage of the Holocaust. — Bilorv (talk) 14:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- An immense loss. My condolences to family and friends. starship.paint (exalt) 00:25, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- There's a missing piece of the encyclopedia that now can never be filled. You'll be missed, SV, and my thoughts are with your family and friends. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:05, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Only just heard. Will be remembered as a fearless editor, completely unafraid to take on the most controversial of topics. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:44, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- For once bad news didn’t travel, I’ve only just heard. This is terrible news; I’ve always though of SV as one of my Wiki-Friends. The project is diminished by her absence. Giano (talk) 21:13, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- Just came to know about this dreadful news. I daresay I'm at a loss for words. RIP. JavaHurricane 04:51, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Oh no. I just learned about SV's death. This is awful news. Very few editors had such a precise grasp of the nuances of policy. Her loss will be especially felt in issues relating to paid editing and WP:COI, as she was vigilant in policing that guideline and preventing its weakening and undermining. Rest assured that she will not be replaced. The sad fact is that we rely upon not a million or so volunteers but, in certain areas, just a handful, sometimes one or two in the most crucial ones. R.I.P. Coretheapple (talk) 13:42, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Rest in Peace Sarah, I hope your friends and family on and off wiki can take some comfort from the legacy you have left us here in this project. ϢereSpielChequers 13:27, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- What sad news. You'll be sorely missed. ~Awilley (talk) 14:32, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Although I never actually interacted with Sarah, I regularly saw her username on RTRC while I was patroling recent changes. I's sad that I will no longer see this name in the stream of edits. You will be missed. - ZLEA T\ 01:06, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
- Shocked to hear this. A great loss to us, a greater loss to her friends and family, to whom my heartfelt condolences – should any of them happen to read this. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:15, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
- I saw people refer to this but didn't know it was true until I came to her user page. Just gutted. SlimVirgin was a pillar of the community from the early days and we are not only losing a great person, editor and admin but part of the community memory that she held. A loss on so many levels. Liz 21:45, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
- Shocking and sad. Razor sharp in discussions but always, always polite, you will be sorely missed by the project. My condolences to your family and friends, both in RL as well as here.--RegentsPark (comment) 00:24, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Just learned of it through Serial Number 54129's talk page memorial for her. My deepest condolences to family and friends, and all the other editors here who worked closely with her. She'll certainly be missed. warshy 17:40, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Wow. I didn't always agree with her, but had huge respect for her. Not just as a person, but as someone who cared so much about Misplaced Pages. She will be greatly missed. Hobit (talk) 04:10, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
- Wishing condolences to those who were close to her. Disillusioned Lackey (talk) 22:52, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry to hear this (only just found out) Peter Damian (talk) 19:14, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for your dedication and commitment to improving Misplaced Pages. You spent countless hours bettering the project and will be missed. May you rest in peace, Anupam 21:40, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
- Can't believe she's gone, rest in peace. AnApple47 (talk) 22:19, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- I'm sorry to hear this. I actually knew her way back when (long before Misplaced Pages). She was a force of nature even then, and while I didn't have much personal contact with her, I do remember at least one instance in which she was very kind and thoughtful to me. RIP --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 20:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- Late to the party, I have only just read of SlimVirgin's death. (That is how I have always known Sarah, so to me it's the natural way to refer to her.) There is probably not much I can say that hasn't been said before, but I will just say that I regarded her as one of the best editors and one of the best administrators we had. The news has saddened me deeply. JBW (talk) 23:40, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- My deepest sorrow and condolences to family, friends, and fellow Wikipedians at the passing of our SlimVirgin. She has been an admired partner on this continuing experiment. Misplaced Pages is the fine, informative, and helpful website it is due to her tireless work. I celebrate her and her lasting legacy on this website. When we encounter her work we will still feel her life and vitality. --Drboisclair (talk) 20:06, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- My condolences to her loved ones. L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 16:34, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
- "Slim" was the best of the best here at Misplaced Pages and it was quite a jolt for me that she has passed. I envy the people that knew her in her in her life away from here. I felt almost sisterly towards her. I felt as though she was my Misplaced Pages sister and I long for her as if she were my sister. I suppose I'm sounding rather dramatic and that's why I've put off writing here for so long... hoping not too sound too syrupy, I guess. I hope that her family and friends tell their children about her accomplishments here. We talk about how the great politicians of the day wrote our American Constitution, well Slim helped write our Misplaced Pages Constitution and continued to improve it and work on its contents tirelessly. I knew her mostly for her work on the under-priviledged, including women and people of color. She had a great mind and a big heart. I miss her. Gandydancer (talk) 00:51, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
- I put off writing here for so long because I really didn’t want to believe it was true. I still don’t want to. Writing this at all is very hard. Sarah is very missed. User:Kafka Liz 11:36, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
- This is very sad news. I had seen her around wikipedia for such a long time. My condolences to her family and friends.VR talk 20:18, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
- I echo what has been said by Risker, Mz7, Zaereth, among many others. An immeasurable loss to the project and someone gone far too soon. May she rest in peace and what else Zaereth said in closing below. --TheSandDoctor 06:05, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
- You continue to be an inspiration. Thank you for your contributions. TarkusAB 13:01, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
- My condolences to her family and friends in real life and here. Really sucks to hear a member of Misplaced Pages passing away but her efforts will not be forgotten... Roberth Martinez (talk) 05:11, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
- I've only just read... we interacted briefly, you were a name I remembered. A loss for words. - TNT 23:55, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
- I too just discovered this, and am shocked, saddened and horrified. A tremendous loss for our project, needless to say. More eloquent voices than mine have already spoken regarding her many fine qualites, so I'll merely add a blessing for her spirit, and to all who loved her... RIP, Sarah. Jusdafax (talk) 09:33, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
- She and I, a long time ago, used to have at each other with sharpened Olive Branches... I am profoundly shocked and saddened, regardless. LessHeard vanU (talk) 09:39, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
- Really sorry to hear about this. As a young editor, I often used to see Sarah around - I highly commend her for her work on articles relating to topics so many are reluctant to discuss or research. Rest in peace. Patient Zero 02:29, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Only just learnt of this. Very sad to hear. A great and knowledgable contributor, and a strong and helpful person. My heartfelt condolences to her family. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:30, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
- I regret to be adding my condolensces so late after the fact, having been largely absent from the project by necesity in recent months. I feel the need to say that, because--incidental though that delay is--it is at odds with the significance I feel that the loss of Sarah constitutes for our project and our community. Sarah and I did share some areas of interest on the project, both in article and policy spaces, but we interacted directly only on a handful of occasions. But I had enough opportunity to observe her conduct and contributions (as an editor and a communicator) to walk away understanding the high regard in which she was held by the community generally. Beyond that, the evidence of her wisdom is also to be found in the structures which she played a significant (indeed, often central) role in building for this, our engine of understanding; in terms of those who made the encyclopedia what it is today, it may be no exagerration to say that we have never before lost a contributor of greater relevance than Sarah, or to say that the world is significantly poorer for this loss. But then, we are also the richer for the dedication this woman chose to invest in the notion that knowledge, and the sharing of it, is a universal right. Snow 02:06, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
- I always saw you as one of the guardians of the project. But I had no idea just how profound, how wide-ranging, your contributions were. You will be remembered, and missed. My condolences to friends and family. Usedtobecool ☎️ 13:27, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
- I realized that I hadn't commented here yet. SlimVirgin's positive impact on Misplaced Pages was such that her loss leaves areas where she worked vulnerable to tendentious editing, also resulting in increased activity on noticeboards. These events remind us of this sad loss. I didn't know Sarah much and only through Misplaced Pages, but I also remember of various wise talk page posts. Farewell SV, —PaleoNeonate – 14:44, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
- Like some others here, I had not learnt of this sad news until now. My condolences to her friends and family. She will be missed around here. RIP. Carcharoth (talk) 19:52, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
- I've only just seen this awful news in The Signpost. Sarah was one of the very first users I encountered after registering my account. She gave me some helpful guidance, which I really appreciated. Though we didn't interact much beyond that, I always admired her and looked to her work as a good example through the years. I still watch that first article we crossed paths on. What a terrible loss. Armadillopteryx 20:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
- This is heartbreaking. I send my sincerest condolences to her family. I’m glad they knew of her Misplaced Pages activity, which was so enormously accomplished. The world is lucky she shared her time this way. Innisfree987 (talk) 16:49, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
- Pondered for a long time what to write here. I wasn't fortunate to know Sarah or work with her but I do see and feel her impact on a daily basis. For me it feels like such a loss and such a void that no one can fill. It's like a room in a house you never go into because the pain is too great. I can not imagine how those who worked closely with her feel or even her family who lived with her every day. Being so close gave them the opportunity to hear and experience her Song and it is forever part of them but they are also most hurt by her loss because they have heard a beautiful melody day after day only to have it taken away and only the memory of it, though a part of them, is what is left. Sarah, you are cherished, you are missed, you are loved by so many. The impact of your life is still with us and will be forever, sweet, RAINBOW in the sky. --ARoseWolf 21:04, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
- I just learned about this very sad and heartbreaking loss. My condolences to her family. Sarah was a treasure, and will be greatly missed. Rest peacefully, my WikiFriend. Atsme 💬 📧 17:12, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- What an extraordinarily impressive body of work. Gives me pause to reflect on the higher values that can be achieved on TheProject and to aspire to those heights. Thankyou Sarah.-Sticks66 05:03, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
- This is terrible. I was hoping it was not true. So upsetting. HighInBC 05:05, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
- I regret that I only learned of Sarah's passing now. To repeat what others have written, she will be missed. -- llywrch (talk) 09:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- Sarah's was indeed a "household name" for Wikipedians, but where I really came to know her work was in the area of WWII and the Holocaust. She proved to be a truly excellent editor - thorough, accurate, opinionated in ways that kept the project honest - and one of a few whose judgment I trusted implicitly. My condolences to her family and friends. François Robere (talk) 18:41, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- Woooow. I'm utterly shocked to hear this sad news of your passing! We haven't talked for years, but you made quite an impact on my life and we even went through some difficult times together. I'm really sad you're gone. You made your mark on this world, my friend, and you have my love and respect forever. --MPerel 14:07, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
- Very sad. I was privileged to have interacted with Sarah. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
- It's always sad to learn about the death of a fellow Wikipedian. Rest in peace. Mar4d (talk) 12:44, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
- Sarah was a fantastic editor who done wonders with articles, She will be remembered and missed, RIP, My sincere condolences to friends and family, –Davey2010 12:27, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- Did not ever directly interact with SlimVirgin that I can recall, but I saw her contributions in discussions, and around other places on Misplaced Pages. I know she will be missed. My condolences to those that knew her well. Huggums537 (talk) 18:52, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- I am not very active on here anymore, so I did not know about this until earlier tonight. Incredibly sad, may she rest in peace. A true titan of Misplaced Pages history who, whenever she graced my watchlist, always seemed like she was honoring me by merely doing so. IntoThinAir (talk) 02:57, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
- We all would've come across Sarah sometime or the other while editing Wiki articles. Her presence can be felt everywhere. I see her as a trailblazer in many of the articles I edit. Going to miss her badly, indeed. Farewell, dear friend. Rasnaboy (talk) 04:34, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
- Rest in peace, Sarah. We'll deeply miss you. treekangaroos 18:37, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- Wow, I am speechless that I just now discovered this. Sarah and I got along very well. This saddens me greatly. My condolences, and my apologies for it being so late. :-(—CYBERPOWER (Chat) 15:38, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
- A great loss to everyone. She was a giant! She was very supportive! What a wonderful person. She will be sorely missed. Rest in peace, from your friend, IZAK (talk) 08:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
- Did not get a chance to say anything when this happened ... but I knew about it. Sarah was one of the first editors I interacted with when I started editing (more frequently) in 2012. I wish I could recall the interaction, but whatever it was, it was one of the many interactions I had on Misplaced Pages that convinced me to stick around and keep editing, no matter what conflicts may arise on Misplaced Pages between the community and me. It may not have been much interaction, but it was enough to make me feel welcome and keep on editing. The loss of Sarah is a big blow to the project, and she is missed. Steel1943 (talk) 19:10, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Follow-up
If this is the wrong time or place to post this, feel free to remove.
- Work is needed on writing the obituary here. That should later be used in the Signpost.
- Sarah worked on many topics including several she found draining due to the content. One she was particularly proud of was Female genital mutilation and I'm hoping a few editors will add that to their watchlists because it easily degrades with passing edits.
Johnuniq (talk) 07:33, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I would love to see a writeup about Sarah's work on making the BLP policy happen. There has been a meme in the media that BLP was the Foundation's idea rather than the English Misplaced Pages's community initiative. I think it would be fitting to set that record straight. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:53, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Clayoquot, I agree. This core policy is so important to WP's credibility as a biographical source. I would like to know more about the role of Sarah, and others, in crafting this policy. Tribe of Tiger 19:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sarah has 12 Featured Articles that should not be overlooked.--MONGO (talk) 23:16, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Her work on Female genital mutilation set a high bar for all of us. Drmies (talk) 01:52, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if this is germane to the conversation, but seeing as we're discussing her obituary, I wanted to mention a brief exchange I had with someone on Reddit five years ago. There was a rumour at the time that SlimVirgin's health was in decline, and I truly hoped that it wasn't true. It's just so hard to wrap my head around an English Misplaced Pages without her. I don't know if I'll ever really get used to it. Her passion was uniquely inspiring, both for me and undoubtedly many others. Kurtis 06:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I've done some basic workup at User:Risker/SV which others can freely edit and improve. I'll also leave a link at the Deceased Wikipedians page. Risker (talk) 01:36, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Impact
Thank you for your impact in helping persons | |
---|---|
by portraying them, collaborating with them, making policy for their protection and defending them! |
I wish I had told you, Sarah. I wish the arbs had listened to you. We miss you. None of us can replace you alone, but we all should do what we can to keep your spirit in this place. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Four years ago, you were recipient no. 1670 of Precious, a prize of QAI! I wasn't the first one to award you that, the most beautiful edition - in 2007 - was by Phaedriel, with a poem and an image:
I thank thee, friend, for the beautiful thought
That in words well chosen thou gavest to me,
Deep in the life of my soul it has wrought
With its own rare essence to ever imbue me ...
Yea, it shall always abide with me
As a part of my immortality;
For a beautiful thought is a thing divine,
So I thank thee, oh, friend, for this gift of thine!
Flowers
Flowers | |
She was a wonderful Wikipedian. I’ve seen her name in a bunch of edit summaries, and I thought... wow, she’s good. I wish I’d gotten the chance to work with her. 🐍 Helen 🐍 21:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC) |
Goodbye Sarah...
This is a really sad year for Misplaced Pages, losing not one but two of its top editors, not by their edit count but by the quality of their work and their incredible integrity as human beings. First, we lost Flyer22, and now this. This is a huge blow to the project, but that pales in comparison to the tragic loss of such a great and wonderful person, who was so incredibly smart and talented.
I never really had much of an opportunity to interact with Sarah. I think we may have spoken to each other once or twice in all the years I've been here. I doubt she ever knew how much I have always admired and respected her, or how much of an influence she had on me, especially back when I first started here. In all of Misplaced Pages, there are a handful of people who stand out among the crowd, and Sarah was a shining star above the masses. From the moment I crossed paths with her, I knew immediately, this was someone special. Perhaps it was because she shared my interest in quality, encyclopedic writing, or her love of writing in general, that first peaked my interest, but it was her brilliance, conviction, and steadfast integrity that I ultimately came to admire. She was someone you could really look up to.
I am especially grateful for her work on core policies, and especially BLP policy; that extremely important and vital policy that protects both our readers and our subjects from very real harm. I've spent most of my time here helping to explain and enforce that policy, and am very thankful to Sarah for recognizing the importance of such a policy very early on. We will always be in your debt, not just us editors and writers, but our subjects, readers, and the world as well.
I never knew until this year that I could be affected so deeply by the loss of someone whom I never met in person, nor ever really knew outside of her work on Misplaced Pages. My deepest condolences go out to her family and friends. To Sarah, may whatever god or spirit or chi you believe in carry you on to something better. The force will be with you, always. Zaereth (talk) 20:50, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
Sarah-SV prize?
Sarah was so active in and supportive of gender equity that it seems fitting for one of the WP groups in that field to consider awarding an annual or biennial prize in her memory for the best contribution to gender equity on the site. Tony (talk) 08:26, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Perhaps we could set up a Gofundme or something to create a cash prize in her name? I'd be willing to donate for certain. Hobit (talk) 04:12, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'd put in a few dollars. Frankly it would be nice to have something to which to donate in support of the project other than the Foundation, which has gotten plenty. BD2412 T 05:42, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- Tony1, Hobit, BD2412, cash prizes tend to result in editors with questionable motives in my experience. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 08:33, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- Alexis, I'd donate, too. But I wasn't necessarily suggesting a cash prize, which brings problems (large amount invested, dividends pay for the prize, is usual for in perpetuo prizes; seems unlikely). Why not replace cash with prestige: so members of the Gender gap task force, call for nominations and discuss and create a shortlist, which goes to, say, the chair of the WMF board. The chair makes the announcement. You never know, the current chair and the rest of the board might think that's a good way to further some of the Foundation's key aims. It would need brief selection criteria and a timeline. And if it works, I'd be in favour of later widening the scope to include other Wikipedias. Could be annual, or every two years? Tony (talk) 12:20, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- Tony1, I think it would be better to aim for publication in the WP:Signpost for starters. Possibly a custom barnstar? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 14:12, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- I wanted something special in memory of Sarah, equal to her special role in the evolution of WP. And something with more grunt than a mere barnstar. Tony (talk) 14:14, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- Tony1, I get what you mean, but it may have a better chance of happening if you learn to walk before you run. Though if you believe you can run right away, go for it. Also the barnstar suggestion was just as an addition, not a replacement. Maybe as a way to nominate? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 18:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- Can't WMF fund it under a rapid grant? --Titodutta (talk) 20:28, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
- What, in perpetuo? I'd rather not mix money into it, unless it's going to be a one-off. And I'd prefer our incentives toward gender equity to be long term. Tony (talk) 02:34, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
- Tony1, I get what you mean, but it may have a better chance of happening if you learn to walk before you run. Though if you believe you can run right away, go for it. Also the barnstar suggestion was just as an addition, not a replacement. Maybe as a way to nominate? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 18:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- I wanted something special in memory of Sarah, equal to her special role in the evolution of WP. And something with more grunt than a mere barnstar. Tony (talk) 14:14, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- Tony1, I think it would be better to aim for publication in the WP:Signpost for starters. Possibly a custom barnstar? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 14:12, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- Alexis, I'd donate, too. But I wasn't necessarily suggesting a cash prize, which brings problems (large amount invested, dividends pay for the prize, is usual for in perpetuo prizes; seems unlikely). Why not replace cash with prestige: so members of the Gender gap task force, call for nominations and discuss and create a shortlist, which goes to, say, the chair of the WMF board. The chair makes the announcement. You never know, the current chair and the rest of the board might think that's a good way to further some of the Foundation's key aims. It would need brief selection criteria and a timeline. And if it works, I'd be in favour of later widening the scope to include other Wikipedias. Could be annual, or every two years? Tony (talk) 12:20, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
The Signpost: 27 June 2021
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- Obituary: SarahSV
Chelsea Manning
Thank you. I wanted to do it....but was nervous about my own issues. Mahalo and aloha to you.
OK...I mentioned Viriditas (and then took it out)....holy crap...he's not...I am so embarrassed, thrilled and sad at the same time right now. Really not sure how to process this.--Mark Miller (talk) 12:44, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
I miss you
Sarah, I miss your kind emails and thoughtful ways. I wish I could have said goodbye. Your loving friend, Ta bu shi da yu - Chris Sherlock. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 08:34, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- On days like today, I wish I could email you. I cannot tell you how I miss you. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 04:29, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
- I just rescued some references for an article you started, Aftermath of the Holocaust. Evidence of you is everywhere, and you won't be forgotten. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 08:51, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
Remembering Sarah
Dear colleagues,
I created a generic userbox to commemorate our absent Wikifriends, and I keep a copy for Sarah at my user page:
This Wikipedian remembers SlimVirgin. |
To add this userbox to your user page, just copy/paste:
{{User:Pdebee/UBX/RemembersAbsentFriend|SlimVirgin}}
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee. 15:13, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
My condolences
Thank you for everything you did to help this project, so sorry to see you go. Rubbish computer (Talk: Contribs) 23:56, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
It's late but I just heard
that you had passed, through a Misplaced Pages dramaboard as somehow seems apropos. Farewell and rest in peace. If you are someplace where you see AaronSw, please give him my regards too. You and I didn't interact very much, but I remember you and I will miss you. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:2B99 (talk) 02:57, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
- Having not crossed swords with Slim for a while I decided to check in on her. I have to say I am genuinely saddened to learn of her passing. Despite our many disagreements she definitely earned my respect. Misplaced Pages will be a poorer place without her. With Flyer22 passing too, and SchroCat leaving, there are some large boots to fill. Betty Logan (talk) 03:51, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
Muhammad al-Durrah incident
Thanks to SlimVirgin, we read as the TFA today about the Muhammad al-Durrah incident, which came with the most excellent introduction I've seen to date, in both detailing the content as also the collaborators:
"This is a partial self-nom. The 10th anniversary of this incident is coming up on September 30 this year, which is why I'm nominating it for FA status. Several editors have worked on it over the years, both on the article itself and by offering guidance on the talk page. A full list of editors is here, and talk-page contributors are here. It was largely rewritten in October this year, though earlier contributions helped to shape the rewrite. The top editors from 2009 are ChrisO, George, Jaakobou, and myself. Previous key editors were Jayjg, Tundrabuggy, and Liftarn. It is 41 kB (6502 words) of readable prose; 110 kB overall.
What happened to 12-year-old Muhammad al-Durrah is a highly contentious issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He was filmed by France 2 on September 30, 2000 apparently being shot and killed by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during a gun battle with Palestinian security forces. Multiple, conflicting, and sometimes overlapping narratives have developed about the incident over the years. The basic positions are as follows, with examples of who holds the view—the people cited are either involved, or are journalists who've written about the issue in depth:
- He was shot and killed by the IDF. Held by Charles Enderlin and Talal Abu Rahma of France 2; most of the media that first responded; the IDF initially.
- He was shot and killed, probably or definitely by Palestinian gunfire. Held by e.g. General Yom Tov Samia of the IDF following a controversial November 2000 IDF investigation; Daniel Leconte, former France 2 correspondent.
- He was shot and killed, but we don't know who fired the shots. Held by e.g. Arlette Chabot, news director of France 2, and Israeli historian Tom Segev.
- He was shot and killed, and we don't know by whom, but not by the IDF soldiers known to have been there. Held by e.g. James Fallows of The Atlantic.
- A boy did die that day in that area, but he arrived at the hospital (10 am) before al-Muhammad was shot (between noon and 3 pm), and the boy shown during the funeral was not al-Durrah. Muhammad may be alive or dead; there is no firm evidence either way. A small minority position, held by German journalist Esther Schapira, who has produced two documentaries about the incident.
- There is no reason to suppose he was either shot or killed; the whole thing was a hoax. A very small minority position, the so-called "maximalist narrative." Held by e.g. Israeli physicist Nahum Shahaf who was involved in the October 2000 IDF investigation; Richard Landes, an American academic; Philippe Karsenty, a French media commentator; Daniel Seaman, director of the Israeli govt press office; Luc Rosenzweig, a retired managing editor of Le Monde; Jean-Claude Schlinger, a French ballistics expert hired by Karsenty. There is also a belief, held by at least one member of the October 2000 IDF inquiry, that the incident was staged, but that the boy's death was real and was part of the pretence.
The positions aren't as clear-cut as the above and overlap considerably. It has been difficult to steer a course through them, giving each view the attention reliable sources give it, but I think we've achieved a reasonable balance. The article covers all the main views comprehensively, without going into neurotic detail (I hope).
There are quite a few fair-use images in the article, as we had to use the original France 2 footage of the shooting. This is copyrighted, but although not released under a free licence, the network has allowed the images to be reproduced all over the world without charge, so there's no problem with our use of them. SlimVirgin 08:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)"
Awesome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:34, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
RIP
“Known by many, respected by all.” | |
“A rare bright star among the sleeping throngs.” Dronebogus (talk) 08:59, 27 February 2022 (UTC) |
RIP
I talked to Sarah before the pandemics because she needed a photograph of the grave in Rome of the Australian artist Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge. I only managed to take those pictures today, and I had learnt the sad news she's no longer with us. She might have liked that someone continues the job she started and that her legacy is not lost. May the Earth be Light on You, Sarah. -- Blackcat 13:26, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for File:Tomba di Dora Ohlfsen.jpg relating to Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge. Johnuniq (talk) 23:27, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- Added. Viriditas (talk) 01:32, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Condolences on this loss. Andre🚐 08:39, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Added. Viriditas (talk) 01:32, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- You will be remembered. R.I.P. — Hamid Hassani (talk) 04:39, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
R.I.P.
May rest in peace. 2601:1C0:CF00:2680:0:0:0:485 (talk) 00:01, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
Historiography Appreciation
Your work at 1948 Palestinian expulsion from Lydda and Ramle is appreciated. Special:MobileDiff/316257893 IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:13, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
May you be at one with your gods, whomever they may be
Damn. I don't know how I missed this. I never really told you how much I admired you. The world was a better place with you in it, and you leave great things behind. I always felt like a little dog yapping at your heels... Hiding T 14:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Deep Condolences.
Hello. I would just like to stop here and say Rest In Peace. You have created many great articles and contributions. Thank you, and you will be remembered. Cooldudeseven7 join in on the tea talk 12:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Stanley Green scheduled for TFA
To any TPSs, This is to let people know that the above article has been scheduled as today's featured article for January 2025. Please check that the article needs no amendments. Feel free to amend the draft blurb, which can be found at Misplaced Pages:Today's featured article/January 2025, or to make comments on other matters concerning the scheduling of this article at Misplaced Pages talk:Today's featured article/January 2025. If people could please keep an eye on that page, as notifications of copy edits to or queries about the draft blurb may be left there by user:JennyOz, who assists the coordinators by reviewing the blurbs, or by others. I also suggest that you watchlist Misplaced Pages:Main Page/Errors from two days before it appears on the Main Page. Thanks to all in ensuring Sarah's work remains as high quality as she would want. - SchroCat (talk) 11:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
Blessing
Just chanced upon another SV contribution, creation of the No Original Sources / Noticeboard, so again want to wish my condolences to fellow Wikipedians and those IRL who mourn her passing. May her memory be for a blessing. ProfGray (talk) 14:58, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
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