Misplaced Pages

Talk:Alexander Rudnay: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 11:58, 24 May 2013 editRaysdiet (talk | contribs)573 editsm Raysdiet moved page Talk:Sándor Rudnay to Talk:Alexander Rudnay over redirect: back to the original title, the move in 2011 was made without a proper discussion← Previous edit Latest revision as of 07:09, 30 December 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk | contribs)Bots7,827,964 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 4 WikiProject templates. (Fix Category:Pages using WikiProject banner shell with unknown parameters)Tag: Talk banner shell conversion 
(43 intermediate revisions by 12 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{WikiProject Hungary|class=start|importance=}} {{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|listas=Rudnay, Alexander|blp=no|1=
{{WikiProject Slovakia|class=start|importance=mid}} {{WikiProject Biography|auto=inherit}}
{{WikiProject Hungary|importance=}}
{{WikiProject Slovakia|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Catholicism|importance=low}}
}}

== Page title ==

The original title was Alexander Rudnay and to Sándor Rudnay without a aproper discussion. Google Books source indicate that Alexander Rudnay is more common: vs. . ], please stop the move war and present your arguments here ] (]) 13:03, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

== Sources for Slovak ethnicity ==

], please expose your arguments. Why did you remove the sources added by me? ] (]) 13:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

== Sándor Rudnay de Rudnó et Divékujfalu ==

Where is this name from? It does not appear in any source ] (]) 09:31, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
:Markó, Szinnyei and all mention his noble title (de Rudna et Divékujfalu), which means ''rudnai és divékujfalusi''. --] (]) 11:11, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

== Origin ==

''Alexander Rudnay was born to a family of lower nobility, which originated from the ''gens'' (clan) Divék. The Rudnay family also preserved its ] from the genus: a brown bear under an extensive foliage of tee with blue background''

I could not find anywhere in the sources this information. I saw that there is a Rudnay family originating from ''gens'' (clan) Divék, but it was not mentioned that there is the same Rudnay family (there is possible to be 2 families with the same name). If you bring the quote, please also offer here the hu-en translation ] (]) 09:40, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
:I provided the source, Iván Nagy also mentions Sándor Rudnay in his work. --] (]) 11:11, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
::], can you please provide the exact quote where it's affirmed that this is a Hungarian clan? ] (]) 13:33, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Cited:''" Újfalussy: ....A honfoglaló 108 nemzetség egyikéből, az u. n. Divék-törzsből származott, épp ugy, mint a Bossányi, Rudnay, Rudnyánszky, Zsámbokréthy stb. családok...."'' Translation: "Újfalussy (family): they originated from one of the 108 conqueror generas (clans), so-called, tribe Divék, similarly to Bossányi, Rudnay, Rudnyánszky, Zsámbokréthy etc families..." ] (]) 13:54, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

== Source ==

Why was this source: ''Mária Vyvíjalová, Alexander Rudnay v kontexte slovenského národnoobrodenského hnutia'' deleted? <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 09:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Please stop edit war and answer why you disregard this source ] (]) 10:59, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
::This source does not prove anything. Mária Vyvíjalová's work Slovakized Hungarian names (Rudnay and Dőry). Sourced do not mention that they were Slovaks. If you search for Máté Csák in Slovak publications, you can see the name variant of Matúš Čák Trenčiansky. As Naplóeon for ] in Hungarian language, but these are incorrect forms. Rudnay was a Hungarian cardinal from an ancient noble family from the 14th century. --] (]) 11:11, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
:::Your opinion is biased. Why isn't András a Magyarized Slovak name? The original forms from old documents were probably in Latin. The Slav (most probably Slovak) ethnicity is clear ("Slavus sum") ] (]) 11:17, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
::::"probably", "most probably", it does not seem that these would be sources. However for my part, I provided relevant sources from lexicons and a geneology work, which also contains coat-of-arms, family tree, list of estates... So, your opinion is the one that biased. --] (]) 11:22, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::I don't contest coat-of-arms, family tree, list of estates anymore. But the self-declaration shows that the person was not an ethnic Hungarian. My problem is that you keep deleting MY sources that present the Slovak version of the parents' names ] (]) 11:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::Not necessarily. It alsou could mean identity instead of ethnicity. Anyway he desribed himself as a Slav and not a Slovak. As a Hungarian noble and cardinal, he was a patron of Slav culture and literature. this conclusion, which says that then"he was a Slovak" is doubtful. Significant difference. Your source contain only Hungarian names with Slovak variant. --] (]) 11:35, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::''Hungarian noble and cardinal'' - here Hungarian defines citizenship, not ethnicty. ''It alsou could mean identity instead of ethnicity'' - and what defines ethnicity if not self-identification? ''Hungarian names with Slovak variant'' - this is a biased opinion. Andrej is the Slovak variant of the Hungarian name Andras, but in the same time Andrej is the Hungarian variant of the Slovak name Andrej ] (]) 11:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Yes it could be, but sources confirm his Hungarian nationality (he was born into an old noble family which originated from the clan Divék, one of the ancient 108 genera of the Kingdom of Hungary). --] (]) 12:07, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::I make a little change in the names order, not to say that the Slovak name has precedence. I hope you agree with the current version ] (]) 15:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::Ok. --] (]) 16:15, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::You write "Ok", but you modify it . Why was this edit a correction? ] (]) 17:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::You said: "''I make a little change in the names order, not to say that the Slovak name has precedence''". So I put the Hungarian name to the first place, as you did at Anna Dőry's. Secondly, I corrected her Slovak name variant (''Dőryová''). Thirdly, we put point before the reference. --] (]) 17:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::I put the Slovak names in the first position in the infobox, for compensation (to avoid discussions about which of the two has priority) ] (]) 21:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi there, I found some sources which claim that Alexander Rudnay had Slav/Slovak ancestry and it seems that even himself felt that way (at least the quote in the article supports this). Do we have sources which would directly claim his Hungarian ethnicity? I saw the family tree, coat of arms, etc., but deducing his ethnicity indirectly from these looks like ]. If there are no direct sources, we should leave the lede as it is. ] ] 17:13, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 07:09, 30 December 2024

This article is rated Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconBiography
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
Note icon
This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.
WikiProject iconHungary
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Hungary, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hungary on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HungaryWikipedia:WikiProject HungaryTemplate:WikiProject HungaryHungary
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconSlovakia Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Slovakia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Slovakia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SlovakiaWikipedia:WikiProject SlovakiaTemplate:WikiProject SlovakiaSlovakia
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconCatholicism Low‑importance
WikiProject iconAlexander Rudnay is within the scope of WikiProject Catholicism, an attempt to better organize and improve the quality of information in articles related to the Catholic Church. For more information, visit the project page.CatholicismWikipedia:WikiProject CatholicismTemplate:WikiProject CatholicismCatholicism
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Catholicism task list:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Page title

The original title was Alexander Rudnay and it was moved to Sándor Rudnay without a aproper discussion. Google Books source indicate that Alexander Rudnay is more common: 2.930 results vs. 307 results. User:Rovibroni, please stop the move war and present your arguments here Raysdiet (talk) 13:03, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Sources for Slovak ethnicity

User:Rovibroni, please expose your arguments. Why did you remove the sources added by me? Raysdiet (talk) 13:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Sándor Rudnay de Rudnó et Divékujfalu

Where is this name from? It does not appear in any source Raysdiet (talk) 09:31, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Markó, Szinnyei and this all mention his noble title (de Rudna et Divékujfalu), which means rudnai és divékujfalusi. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:11, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Origin

Alexander Rudnay was born to a family of lower nobility, which originated from the gens (clan) Divék. The Rudnay family also preserved its coat of arms from the genus: a brown bear under an extensive foliage of tee with blue background

I could not find anywhere in the sources this information. I saw that there is a Rudnay family originating from gens (clan) Divék, but it was not mentioned that there is the same Rudnay family (there is possible to be 2 families with the same name). If you bring the quote, please also offer here the hu-en translation Raysdiet (talk) 09:40, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I provided the source, Iván Nagy also mentions Sándor Rudnay in his work. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:11, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
User:Fakirbakir, can you please provide the exact quote where it's affirmed that this is a Hungarian clan? Raysdiet (talk) 13:33, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Cited:" Újfalussy: ....A honfoglaló 108 nemzetség egyikéből, az u. n. Divék-törzsből származott, épp ugy, mint a Bossányi, Rudnay, Rudnyánszky, Zsámbokréthy stb. családok...." Translation: "Újfalussy (family): they originated from one of the 108 conqueror generas (clans), so-called, tribe Divék, similarly to Bossányi, Rudnay, Rudnyánszky, Zsámbokréthy etc families..." Fakirbakir (talk) 13:54, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Source

Why was this source: Mária Vyvíjalová, Alexander Rudnay v kontexte slovenského národnoobrodenského hnutia deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raysdiet (talkcontribs) 09:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Please stop edit war and answer why you disregard this source Raysdiet (talk) 10:59, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
This source does not prove anything. Mária Vyvíjalová's work Slovakized Hungarian names (Rudnay and Dőry). Sourced do not mention that they were Slovaks. If you search for Máté Csák in Slovak publications, you can see the name variant of Matúš Čák Trenčiansky. As Naplóeon for Napoleon Bonaparte in Hungarian language, but these are incorrect forms. Rudnay was a Hungarian cardinal from an ancient noble family from the 14th century. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:11, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Your opinion is biased. Why isn't András a Magyarized Slovak name? The original forms from old documents were probably in Latin. The Slav (most probably Slovak) ethnicity is clear ("Slavus sum") Raysdiet (talk) 11:17, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
"probably", "most probably", it does not seem that these would be sources. However for my part, I provided relevant sources from lexicons and a geneology work, which also contains coat-of-arms, family tree, list of estates... So, your opinion is the one that biased. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:22, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't contest coat-of-arms, family tree, list of estates anymore. But the self-declaration shows that the person was not an ethnic Hungarian. My problem is that you keep deleting MY sources that present the Slovak version of the parents' names Raysdiet (talk) 11:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Not necessarily. It alsou could mean identity instead of ethnicity. Anyway he desribed himself as a Slav and not a Slovak. As a Hungarian noble and cardinal, he was a patron of Slav culture and literature. this conclusion, which says that then"he was a Slovak" is doubtful. Significant difference. Your source contain only Hungarian names with Slovak variant. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:35, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Hungarian noble and cardinal - here Hungarian defines citizenship, not ethnicty. It alsou could mean identity instead of ethnicity - and what defines ethnicity if not self-identification? Hungarian names with Slovak variant - this is a biased opinion. Andrej is the Slovak variant of the Hungarian name Andras, but in the same time Andrej is the Hungarian variant of the Slovak name Andrej Raysdiet (talk) 11:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Yes it could be, but sources confirm his Hungarian nationality (he was born into an old noble family which originated from the clan Divék, one of the ancient 108 genera of the Kingdom of Hungary). --Norden1990 (talk) 12:07, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
I make a little change in the names order, not to say that the Slovak name has precedence. I hope you agree with the current version Raysdiet (talk) 15:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Ok. --Norden1990 (talk) 16:15, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
You write "Ok", but you modify it . Why was this edit a correction? Raysdiet (talk) 17:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
You said: "I make a little change in the names order, not to say that the Slovak name has precedence". So I put the Hungarian name to the first place, as you did at Anna Dőry's. Secondly, I corrected her Slovak name variant (Dőryová). Thirdly, we put point before the reference. --Norden1990 (talk) 17:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
I put the Slovak names in the first position in the infobox, for compensation (to avoid discussions about which of the two has priority) Raysdiet (talk) 21:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi there, I found some sources which claim that Alexander Rudnay had Slav/Slovak ancestry and it seems that even himself felt that way (at least the quote in the article supports this). Do we have sources which would directly claim his Hungarian ethnicity? I saw the family tree, coat of arms, etc., but deducing his ethnicity indirectly from these looks like WP:OR. If there are no direct sources, we should leave the lede as it is. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 17:13, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Categories: